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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
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podcast.
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Home to nearly 10,000,000
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people, the Chicago
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Metropolitan
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Area or Chicagoland
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is one of the largest urban areas in
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The US.
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A scientific
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powerhouse,
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the region is home to two
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US national labs,
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Argonne and Fermilab,
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as well as top notch academic institutions,
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including the University of Chicago
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and Northwestern
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University.
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Physics World's Margaret Harris was in Chicagoland recently
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and met two scientists.
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One who leads a national
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collaborative center focused on the future of battery
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recycling,
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And the other who leads an institution
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dedicated to molecular
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engineering.
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Those conversations
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are coming up after this message about an
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event that's sponsored by the Institute of Physics,
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which also brings you Physics World.
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On the May,
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The Economist
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is hosting
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commercializing
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Quantum Global twenty twenty five in London.
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Participants will join global leaders from business,
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science, and policy
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for two days of real world insights into
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quantum's future.
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In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,
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communications,
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and sensing,
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and discover how these technologies are shaping industries,
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economies,
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and global regulation.
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You can register for the event at events.economist.com.
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First up, Margaret speaks with the physicist
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Nadia Mason.
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She's dean of the Pritzker School of Molecular
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Engineering
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at the University of Chicago,
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which focuses on quantum engineering,
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materials for sustainability,
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and immuno
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engineering.
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Here's that conversation.
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So first question is, you know, molecular engineering
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is kind of a a new concept.
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How would you define this term, and how
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does that sort of explain
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all the things that we're going on here?
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So molecular engineering is, it's new. It's it's
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an exciting way, I think, of putting together
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different fields that have the same goals.
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So
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the idea is that you're you're building things
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from the from the molecular level up. And
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it's something that you couldn't do years ago
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because you didn't have the ability to manipulate
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individual molecules in the same way or even
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image individual molecules. You know, the revolution in
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nanotechnology in the seventies and eighties and nineties
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is really what led today to our ability
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to even think about how do we
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engineer and manipulate,
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combine
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things at this really basic molecular level
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to to move toward applications that that utilize
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them. You know, I'm I come from physics,
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so I think about atoms.
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You know? And
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we still don't have the ability, really, I
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mean, to to put together atoms in a
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way that leads to functional devices. We can
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do it with scanning tunneling microscopy, but we
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really can't do it at the single atomic
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level. Right? And before, we couldn't even do
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that at the molecular level, but now we
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can with different capabilities in in in chemical
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engineering, in materials engineering, in physics. By combining
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all of those things, we can now think
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about, okay, how do we take a molecule
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and functionalize it in just the right way
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to lead to the next,
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you know, therapeutic that helps cure cancer? How
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do we take a
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nano sized bit of of material, which you
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can think of on the molecular scale, and
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engineer defects to make the next generation of
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quantum sensor?
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How do we take
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materials that form the backbone of our most
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common plastics and
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modify them on really the atom by atom
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level to make them more recyclable?
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These are things I I think we just
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couldn't do, but now we know how. So
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that those those form the basis of molecular
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engineering. It's it's it's a way of of
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thinking about
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engineering the future
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from a small scale
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to the largest.
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And so I think you you've got, I
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hear the Pritzker School of Nucklesh Yes. Got
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three different sort of fields, I think. So
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we're talking mostly about energy and quantum today
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Yeah. Yeah. The ones that are closest to
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physics. But I guess there's also immunoengineering.
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That's right.
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What do you see as the connections between
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these areas? How does that what's that kind
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of cross pollination that you see between them?
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Yeah. Great question. Well, I mean, at at
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UChicago, we thought we wanted we didn't wanna
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create a traditional school of engineering that had
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departments that were just defined by whatever terms
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were important in the early nineteen hundreds, like,
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you know, mechanics. I mean, it's still important,
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but it's not that doesn't that doesn't define
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a problem. It defines an an area of,
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you know, a very broad area of training.
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So the idea is today, how do you
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think about the problems we wanna solve and
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train for those? And so that's how we
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chose these three areas. There were things that
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were both relevant right now that were that
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we could build on existing strengths at Chicago
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UChicago and in the community, but also that
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we thought were going to be really important
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for the future. So quantum engineering is is
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now. It's happening. This is something that when
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I started in grad school, it was just
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quantum mechanics, and now we're we have companies
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and we're designing devices. And, you know, engineering,
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same thing. This is related to really the
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fundamentals of how you manipulate molecules for for
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biology and for therapeutics and applications in the
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biological sphere.
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And especially immunology is something that even in
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the past ten years, it's become more fear
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that the immune system affects almost every disease
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that we that we have. I think something
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like eighty percent of deaths are actually immune
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system disorders
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that, you know, that something breaks down and
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then then affects the immune system, which is
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what causes your organs to fail and you
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to die. And then same thing with molecular
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engineering, for energy and sustainability. That is, of
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course, one of the biggest problems we have
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out there. Now the great thing is because
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we're thinking all about molecules manipulating,
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having things interact across the board, across what
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are really disparate fields,
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what you'd think are disparate fields,
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our faculty and researchers can use similar techniques
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to work you know, to inform each other.
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They can they can think about applications
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that they might not have thought of otherwise.
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You know, so one example is I was
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just in the lab of one of of
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two of our faculty who are in the
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quantum group, but also in the immuno group,
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because one of them, Peter Maurer, is using
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quantum sensors.
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So,
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vacancy sensors and, you know, vacancies in in
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materials, and now even proteins in biological systems
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as quantum states to image biological systems. And
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so the student who I was talking to
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in his lab yesterday is a is a
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biophysicist
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who is actually, like, making,
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you know, fluorophores. And, there is some green
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thing that was like an algae somewhere. I
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don't know. I don't even know what they
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were doing with it, but it was funny
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seeing it in a lab that had dilution
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refrigerators and lasers and things like that because
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they're they're not just, like, trapping and moving
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things around. They're actually using proteins as quantum
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sensors to, you know, to
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image what's happening in individual cells to see
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what, you know, ion channels and things are
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doing for for that can affect specific biological
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functions. And so, you know, another one of
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our faculty, Sihang Huang, is looking at
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bioadhesives. So he's confining material science and looking
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at how to make adhesives, but functionalizing
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them to work on organs with immunoreceptors
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and things that make them
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both compatible, but also can, you know, suppress
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very specific reactions when you use these adhesives
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in situ in your body. And he's one
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of the first people to ever do this.
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And, you know, again, they're working he's he
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was working directly with other faculty who just
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have who know the immunotherapies. And in the
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Quantum Lab, they're working directly with, people who
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work on therapeutics. So I think there's you
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know, we always talk about how exciting science
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happens at the interface, but here, you know,
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we're all in the same building. And I've
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personally never seen
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so many
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actual collaborations between people in what seems like
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really disparate fields, but are just breaking boundaries
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all the way. So super exciting, I think,
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for us, but also
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for our collective future.
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How does your own research fit into that?
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You know, you've been talking about other people's
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research. Yeah. How do you see your your
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own research? Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah.
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So I'm a I'm I'm trained as a
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quantum physicist.
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All of my all of my degrees are
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in physics, and I focus on correlated electronic
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systems. So systems where the electrons interact strongly
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or nanoscale systems where you get new behaviors
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because things are are so
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small. I'm really more on the on the
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quantum material side, which is looking at
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at
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how do you you know, what what new
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functionalities can you get out of materials when
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you think about them in the in the
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quantum regime.
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These are, you know, this is directly relevant
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to a lot of our quantum engineering that's
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going on where we're thinking about, you know,
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what are what are the next generation of
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quantum sensors? What are the what are the
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next you know, how do we connect classical
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computers
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to quantum computers? How do we make quantum
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computer computers more
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more viable by increasing their coherence on the
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long on long time scales?
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You know, I think I I do the
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my group does the does the legwork to
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think of the next generation of of materials
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and applications and phenomena that can feed into
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all of this sort of quantum engineering. Now
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you ask how it bridges. It bridges because
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I think of materials as backbone of everything.
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Right? If you you if you have if
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you have a new material,
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then you can find all sorts of uses
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and applications for it. So you can think
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of these new, we work on graphene, which
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is a purely two dimensional material. That's something
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that people in quantum care about because it's
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an electronic material, but also in, you know,
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our immuno engineers are using this as as
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scaffolding, as a flexible scaffolding for different types
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of of, of functionalized membranes, for example. So,
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you know, the material backbone is another thing
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that crosses all of all of these things.
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And you talk about, you know, some trends
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and developments in the field to know. What
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is what is coming up that you're most
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excited about
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five years in the future, three years in
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the future? Yeah.
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I I touched on this a little already,
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but I really think it is the intersection
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of these different fields. I think that that
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the intersection of biology and quantum is something
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that that our our faculty have been exploring
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extremely successfully that I think is is viable,
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that we will have a quantum sensor that
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can look inside a cell and will have
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direct applications for
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for therapeutics,
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in a way that we just couldn't see
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thing at a in a scale we couldn't
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see things before.
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I think that's, you know, that's five years
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down the line. I think that'll be revolutionary.
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As I mentioned, materials people who are also
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combining materials and medicine in a in in
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a way that comes from that from working
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with deeply people who are deeply knowledgeable
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about the medicine and working directly with them
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to make things that not only, like, you
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know, kind of work inside a body, but
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make it better. Right? They can now heal
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things but work.
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You know, in the in the area of
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of climate and energy, which is incredibly important
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for the future,
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you know, we
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we will have new battery technologies, for example.
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There's new, non lithium batteries coming online, sodium
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batteries, for example, that'll be cheaper, that'll be
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faster, that'll be more efficient. We're working directly
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on those.
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I think
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I I'm excited to see
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how we will continue
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to address
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our needs for
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we we have a new institute for for
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climate and and sustainable growth, and so I've
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been thinking a lot about sustainable growth. And,
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you know, so we we do have a
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need for growth in our society, but, of
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course, globally as well. Right? We we all
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deserve higher living standards globally, not just in
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this country, why we deserve to have healthy,
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happy lives. That doesn't mean more money or
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technology,
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but to get there,
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we will need to equalize the amount of
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resources and technology that are available. We need
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to do that in a sustainable way. And
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to get there, we need to invent those
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technologies to make them cheap enough, to make
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them effective enough, to make them available enough
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to help lift everyone in in the world,
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not just The US, but everywhere. And so
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it's a long winded way of saying, I'm
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excited because I think we can get there.
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I think that the next five to ten
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years, because we have to, there'll be an
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explosion in in developing those sort of technologies
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across across the board. I really you know?
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And okay. I'm I'm biased toward the three
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areas that we focus on, but I think
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that these are areas that are are going
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to continue to explode in in the buy
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in the biomedical space, in the energy space,
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in the quantum space,
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and in the climate space also.
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Yeah. You talked about, you know, getting there
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in the next five to ten years. What
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are the big challenges? What are the barriers
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you have to overcome to
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to produce a quantum sense of the Yeah.
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Incense in Yeah. In the human body to
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develop sustainable materials. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,
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this brings us all the way back to
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molecular engineering in the materials space. Sometimes we
355
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just need to jump in materials. We need
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to be need to understand materials better to
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improve their properties. So in quantum, one of
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the biggest limitations is that we we can't
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maintain our quantum wave functions. It's the coherence
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times. Those are often materials problems. We have
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to know what's what is preventing what is
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making the these quantum states unstable,
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and and how do we engineer that away.
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And we're making strides toward that, but I
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think we have to do a better job
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of that. And or how do we engineer
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around it to mitigate those effects, like error
368
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correction in quantum computing? We're making strides toward
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that too. But some of that is incremental
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strides that are necessary, and some of it
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is actually jumps in knowledge. You know? It
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it you can it's when I think about
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fundamental jumps, they can be in fundamental science,
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but you also need fundamental engineering jumps. They
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think back to the transistor and why we
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have microelectronics
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today. It was the invention of the transistor
378
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that was one big jump. But then the
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invention of the integrated circuit, which is really
380
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an engineering feat, was the next big jump
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that allowed us to go from something that
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was as big as our hand to something
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that, you know, as, you know, supercomputer in
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our pocket, basically. Right? Our our phones. Right?
385
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All these things. So so we need some
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of those, you know a lot of the
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fundamental jumps have been made, but we need
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some of those engineering jumps to be made.
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And I think across the board in in
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battery space too. You know, we know we
391
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know where we want to go, but what
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are the materials that allow us to do
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00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:16,584
that? How do we actually connect them? How
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do we think in new ways? How do
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we just kinda free our brains and have
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those moments that, okay, we can we can
397
00:14:22,424 --> 00:14:24,345
do this or even just play around and
398
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discover suddenly that this works in a way
399
00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:27,644
that was unexpected?
400
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We we need more of those moments to
401
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,919
build the future. And I think that as
402
00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:34,019
long as we keep supporting basic
403
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:34,899
engineering
404
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:37,039
and science, we'll get there. But we do
405
00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:39,139
need to keep pushing in those directions.
406
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So
407
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,679
you talk about the the need to improve
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materials, the need to improve the the basic
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00:14:46,214 --> 00:14:48,454
functionality. But after that, of course, there's a
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00:14:48,454 --> 00:14:51,574
challenge of taking those things into commercialization and
411
00:14:51,574 --> 00:14:53,574
eventually to market. How what are some of
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00:14:53,574 --> 00:14:55,654
the ideas that you have to overcome that
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00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:57,654
that gap? Yeah. I think there's there's there's
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00:14:57,654 --> 00:14:59,815
a broad understanding everywhere from the NSF up
415
00:14:59,815 --> 00:15:01,240
to the highest, you know, levels of government
416
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,940
and in the labs that we can't
417
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,480
it's not good enough to just invent something
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in the lab, especially in the school of
419
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engineering. You really wanna get what you your
420
00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,240
idea to have effect, have impact. And to
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00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,200
do that, you have to get in the
422
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,804
hands of people who will use it. And
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to do that, you have to work with
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00:15:14,924 --> 00:15:16,845
companies. You have to either start your own
425
00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:19,485
company that's gonna utilize these these devices and
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00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:20,845
these things that you make or work with
427
00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:21,745
existing companies.
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00:15:22,204 --> 00:15:25,024
We really believe in that. We've been, supporting
429
00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,784
faculty starting companies,
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00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720
working working with companies, and working with industry
431
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,740
at every level, including having starting,
432
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,759
you know, networks that have industry come into
433
00:15:34,759 --> 00:15:36,840
our labs and tell us what their greatest
434
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,519
needs are and us tell them what we're
435
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:40,200
working on and what's cutting edge and so
436
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,879
we can work together to bring things quickly
437
00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:44,904
to market. It's also important to just to
438
00:15:44,904 --> 00:15:47,004
understand that we face such big challenges
439
00:15:47,384 --> 00:15:50,125
that no one lab, no one
440
00:15:50,425 --> 00:15:53,085
school, no one university can do this alone.
441
00:15:53,225 --> 00:15:54,825
And one of the things that has really
442
00:15:54,825 --> 00:15:57,209
attracted me the most to being in Chicago
443
00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,549
and at the University of Chicago is that
444
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:02,089
we've been able to participate in and really
445
00:16:02,089 --> 00:16:03,309
help create ecosystems
446
00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:04,350
that
447
00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:05,309
build
448
00:16:06,409 --> 00:16:09,129
industries and that build these connections between basic
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00:16:09,129 --> 00:16:10,110
research and
450
00:16:10,504 --> 00:16:13,225
impact as efficiently as possible. So we work
451
00:16:13,225 --> 00:16:15,865
with the national labs very, very closely. We
452
00:16:15,865 --> 00:16:17,945
work with with companies. We work with the
453
00:16:17,945 --> 00:16:20,345
government. We work with the other universities across
454
00:16:20,345 --> 00:16:22,264
the state and across Midwest and and across
455
00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,320
the world even to make sure that we
456
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,379
create ecosystems
457
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:26,500
that support
458
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:27,700
research,
459
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:28,660
products,
460
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,100
impact, and improve lives as efficiently as possible.
461
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,240
And we've done that in the quantum sphere
462
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,920
here in Chicago. I think we've we've really
463
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,840
helped make Chicago the the center of the
464
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,154
quantum world. This happened because of a big
465
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support from the government, the governor from especially
466
00:16:42,955 --> 00:16:45,195
the state government, governor Pritzker, has been incredibly
467
00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:48,075
supportive of quantum. We've worked really closely with
468
00:16:48,075 --> 00:16:50,715
our our state universities, University of Illinois, with
469
00:16:50,715 --> 00:16:53,230
Northwestern University, and with the labs, and been
470
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:55,470
able to build something where quantum companies now
471
00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:57,410
want to come here to work with researchers,
472
00:16:57,790 --> 00:16:59,950
to build things, to test, to make sure
473
00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:02,029
that we can just get this technology furthered
474
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as as quickly as possible. And we wanna
475
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do that in the energy sphere. We wanna
476
00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:07,230
do that in the biosphere. We wanna make
477
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:08,894
sure that that we're
478
00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,994
having impact as efficiently as possible. And we're
479
00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:13,694
getting really good at that. So I'm I'm
480
00:17:13,755 --> 00:17:15,434
incredibly excited to see what happens in the
481
00:17:15,434 --> 00:17:16,795
next five years. So I think there'll there'll
482
00:17:16,795 --> 00:17:18,494
be a lot a lot of positive change.
483
00:17:19,434 --> 00:17:21,799
Elijah Mason, thank you very much. My pleasure.
484
00:17:28,819 --> 00:17:31,619
That was Nadia Mason of the University of
485
00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:32,119
Chicago
486
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,720
in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris.
487
00:17:36,734 --> 00:17:39,875
Now, Margaret speaks with Jeffrey Spangenberger,
488
00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,115
who leads the Materials
489
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:45,634
Recycling Group at Argonne National Laboratory.
490
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They talk about the Resell Center,
491
00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:49,880
a national
492
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,799
collaboration of industry,
493
00:17:52,339 --> 00:17:52,839
academia,
494
00:17:53,299 --> 00:17:54,680
and national laboratories
495
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,039
that Spangenberger
496
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:57,080
leads.
497
00:17:57,539 --> 00:17:59,480
He explains how ReCell
498
00:17:59,779 --> 00:18:00,519
is advancing
499
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:01,320
recycling
500
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,664
for current and future
501
00:18:03,965 --> 00:18:05,105
battery technologies.
502
00:18:13,005 --> 00:18:14,365
The first thing I wanted to ask, you
503
00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,309
know, just as when you're talking about battery
504
00:18:16,309 --> 00:18:17,830
recycling, what types of batteries are we talking
505
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:19,029
about? Are we talking about the batteries in
506
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:20,809
your phone, batteries in your car,
507
00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:22,650
both, everything?
508
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,450
Yeah.
509
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:24,730
Specifically,
510
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:27,450
right now, we're focused on lithium ion batteries.
511
00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:31,204
Not lithium metal batteries, lithium ion batteries.
512
00:18:31,904 --> 00:18:33,505
But they can be in your car, in
513
00:18:33,505 --> 00:18:34,964
your EV, your hybrid,
514
00:18:35,585 --> 00:18:37,984
or they could be in your phone, your
515
00:18:37,984 --> 00:18:38,644
cell phone.
516
00:18:39,024 --> 00:18:40,964
They could also be in storage
517
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,539
applications, so the grid
518
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,140
or your your house backup, things like that.
519
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,240
So how do you recycle a battery? Like,
520
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,619
what goes into that process?
521
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:52,740
So
522
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,000
the actual process of of a battery is
523
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:56,500
done
524
00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:59,994
more prominently in two different fashions. There's
525
00:19:00,615 --> 00:19:01,115
hydrometallurgical
526
00:19:01,654 --> 00:19:03,035
recycling, and there's pyrometallurgical
527
00:19:03,494 --> 00:19:03,994
recycling.
528
00:19:05,494 --> 00:19:06,315
In pyrometallurgical
529
00:19:06,775 --> 00:19:07,275
recycling,
530
00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:10,934
we use heat to essentially burn off with
531
00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:11,515
the organics,
532
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,220
and then the metals are recovered
533
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,180
in,
534
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,539
in the furnace.
535
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,259
And there's two fractions. There's,
536
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,200
a metal alloy, which has a lot of
537
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,279
the great metals, and then the copper, the
538
00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:25,180
precious metals,
539
00:19:25,595 --> 00:19:26,875
which are not really in too much on
540
00:19:26,875 --> 00:19:28,714
a battery except maybe on a on a
541
00:19:28,714 --> 00:19:31,355
electric panel or something like that. But there
542
00:19:31,355 --> 00:19:33,275
is also a slag, and then that slag
543
00:19:33,275 --> 00:19:34,894
contains lithium metal,
544
00:19:35,355 --> 00:19:35,855
unfortunately,
545
00:19:36,234 --> 00:19:38,315
as well as aluminum. Those two are in
546
00:19:38,315 --> 00:19:38,974
in batteries.
547
00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:40,990
They can be recovered, but it's a little
548
00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:43,009
bit more difficult than they would be normally.
549
00:19:43,309 --> 00:19:43,809
So
550
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:45,490
that's one of the
551
00:19:45,789 --> 00:19:47,170
the issues with pyro.
552
00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:49,630
That's not to say that pyro isn't good.
553
00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:51,549
There are a lot of good applications for
554
00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:52,049
pyro.
555
00:19:52,434 --> 00:19:54,994
And and there's not one hydro or pyro
556
00:19:54,994 --> 00:19:57,154
is not gonna take over the world in
557
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:58,855
recycling. There are a lot of different
558
00:19:59,315 --> 00:20:00,695
pros and cons of each.
559
00:20:01,234 --> 00:20:03,174
In hydro metallurgic or recycling,
560
00:20:03,955 --> 00:20:04,615
you usually
561
00:20:04,994 --> 00:20:07,575
shred the battery to liberate the metals.
562
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:10,420
Metals are typically what you're going after as
563
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:11,960
a number one material.
564
00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:13,960
You put it in acid.
565
00:20:14,819 --> 00:20:17,940
You dissolve the the metals, and then you
566
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:18,440
can
567
00:20:18,819 --> 00:20:20,805
separate those metals out
568
00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:23,525
and and recover them and put them into
569
00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:25,625
new new products that way.
570
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:28,085
So those are the two main ones. We
571
00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:29,045
also work,
572
00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:32,325
along with some other companies on direct recycling,
573
00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,105
which is a third type of recycling.
574
00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:37,589
There's also the other materials other than metals
575
00:20:37,589 --> 00:20:39,609
that you wanna get from recycling, plastics.
576
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:40,630
There's,
577
00:20:41,509 --> 00:20:43,349
fluorinated products, which we need to make sure
578
00:20:43,349 --> 00:20:44,570
we keep our eye on.
579
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:46,470
That would be in the polymers that are
580
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,230
in the some of the polymers that are
581
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:49,930
in a a lithium ion battery.
582
00:20:50,855 --> 00:20:53,414
The electrolyte salt has fluorine in it. So
583
00:20:53,414 --> 00:20:54,875
these are all materials that,
584
00:20:55,174 --> 00:20:56,634
you know, should be dealt with.
585
00:20:57,255 --> 00:20:58,555
What else is in a battery?
586
00:20:59,255 --> 00:21:01,994
The anode. So the anode is typically graphite.
587
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119
It it is a larger portion of the
588
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,759
battery mass wise, and so we wanna we
589
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:10,559
wanna reuse those materials as much as possible.
590
00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:11,220
In fact,
591
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:13,700
natural graphite is a critical material
592
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,315
that not many people think about. But and
593
00:21:17,315 --> 00:21:19,954
and there's both synthetic and graphite and and
594
00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,775
natural graphite in these batteries, so
595
00:21:23,315 --> 00:21:25,234
it's important that we recycle those as well
596
00:21:25,234 --> 00:21:26,994
and not just go after the money making
597
00:21:26,994 --> 00:21:27,494
metals.
598
00:21:28,434 --> 00:21:29,875
So how do you get to me it's
599
00:21:29,875 --> 00:21:32,115
kind of easy conceptually to imagine, okay, in
600
00:21:32,115 --> 00:21:33,789
some some way that with metal, you melt
601
00:21:33,789 --> 00:21:35,150
it down and then you work out what
602
00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:37,789
you know, there's various quite established processes for
603
00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:39,789
us to separate it out. How do you
604
00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:41,170
recycle something like
605
00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:43,070
graphite, or how do you recycle some of
606
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:45,070
the fluorinated compounds that you need to recycle,
607
00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:47,070
presumably because they they would otherwise get into
608
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:49,825
the environment to do bad things there. Right.
609
00:21:49,884 --> 00:21:51,904
Yeah. So with graphite, there's
610
00:21:52,365 --> 00:21:53,585
people working on it.
611
00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:56,205
The way that you process a battery can
612
00:21:56,205 --> 00:21:56,705
have
613
00:21:57,325 --> 00:21:59,085
I don't still wanna say good things happen
614
00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,164
to it, but maybe not bad things or
615
00:22:01,164 --> 00:22:02,765
bad things happen to it. Like, if you
616
00:22:02,765 --> 00:22:04,490
put graphite in in acid,
617
00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:06,230
a lot of times that makes it more
618
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:08,549
difficult to reuse in new batteries. The the
619
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:10,789
best way is to take the material and
620
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:12,089
reuse it in a new battery.
621
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,809
Fix it, basically, rinse it off,
622
00:22:15,589 --> 00:22:17,130
refurbish it, if you will.
623
00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:19,325
It's not that easy, though.
624
00:22:19,625 --> 00:22:22,045
There are processes that make that part easier,
625
00:22:22,505 --> 00:22:24,105
but you can also use graphite for a
626
00:22:24,105 --> 00:22:26,505
lot of different material sources. So and that's
627
00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:28,904
good. And recycling, you know, it's really important,
628
00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:30,525
I think, to to try and
629
00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:32,299
close that loop. If it's in a car,
630
00:22:32,299 --> 00:22:33,920
put it back in a car. But sometimes,
631
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,660
if you don't put it back into the
632
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,640
original application,
633
00:22:40,059 --> 00:22:43,515
you still are relieving it from sourcing somewhere
634
00:22:43,515 --> 00:22:45,434
else for another product. Right? So maybe it
635
00:22:45,434 --> 00:22:46,795
doesn't go into a battery. Maybe it goes
636
00:22:46,795 --> 00:22:49,535
into a reductant or something in our furnace.
637
00:22:49,994 --> 00:22:50,815
With the
638
00:22:51,115 --> 00:22:52,015
the fluorines,
639
00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:53,295
I think
640
00:22:53,835 --> 00:22:54,894
that's a real challenge
641
00:22:55,259 --> 00:22:56,940
with with how we deal with that is
642
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:58,799
they're in low quantities in a battery.
643
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:02,619
And pyro, actually, what happens is they're well,
644
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,920
they go up into the,
645
00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:06,720
exhaust, and they're captured and treated.
646
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:07,920
So,
647
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:09,519
so you collect them.
648
00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:10,904
In hydro,
649
00:23:11,684 --> 00:23:13,204
there's a lot of work that's going on
650
00:23:13,204 --> 00:23:15,384
now, especially with PFAS being a
651
00:23:15,684 --> 00:23:16,505
a big consideration.
652
00:23:17,204 --> 00:23:19,944
There's work to remove it. There's work to
653
00:23:20,164 --> 00:23:22,664
capture it when we're recycling it as well.
654
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,039
Why is it so important that we get
655
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:26,980
better at recycling batteries?
656
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,580
Yeah. Great question.
657
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:31,279
The the funny thing is on the other
658
00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,359
side of the lab, he's probably gonna be
659
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359
talking about all the great work that's going
660
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,400
into making the batteries
661
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,859
the new batteries
662
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,660
better.
663
00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:40,525
And when you make a new battery better,
664
00:23:40,525 --> 00:23:43,744
it usually means cutting cost and improving performance.
665
00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:46,384
When you cut costs specifically,
666
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:48,705
it makes recycling
667
00:23:49,164 --> 00:23:49,985
more difficult
668
00:23:50,605 --> 00:23:53,184
because we need money on the back end
669
00:23:53,325 --> 00:23:54,545
to fund those processes.
670
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:56,710
So if you take all the valuable metals
671
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,150
out there, you take out the cost of
672
00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:58,890
the materials,
673
00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:01,750
it makes recycling harder. So that's why we
674
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:03,289
need to be better at recycling.
675
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:05,930
And so it's important that we don't just
676
00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:07,184
work at this,
677
00:24:07,745 --> 00:24:08,644
find a solution,
678
00:24:09,265 --> 00:24:09,765
and
679
00:24:10,065 --> 00:24:12,625
call it good. We gotta continue to to
680
00:24:12,625 --> 00:24:14,705
improve because it's gonna be more difficult as
681
00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,565
we go down the road. Plus new chemistries,
682
00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:19,745
we always need to to work on what's
683
00:24:19,745 --> 00:24:22,144
what's coming down the road that we're gonna
684
00:24:22,144 --> 00:24:24,299
be seeing in our recycling plants.
685
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,680
What about the sort of supply chain aspect?
686
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,880
I mean, some of them some of these,
687
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000
materials, particularly the metals, high value metals, it's
688
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840
not just that it's expensive to develop and
689
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,440
it's there's a finite amount of them out
690
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,704
there, and they may not necessarily be in
691
00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:38,944
locations that are easy to get at. That's
692
00:24:38,944 --> 00:24:39,444
right.
693
00:24:39,744 --> 00:24:41,204
So, you know, The US
694
00:24:41,904 --> 00:24:42,404
is
695
00:24:42,704 --> 00:24:43,204
very
696
00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:46,544
low in quantities of these materials that go
697
00:24:46,544 --> 00:24:48,304
into the batteries. We get them from other
698
00:24:48,304 --> 00:24:50,890
countries, and it puts us at a security
699
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:51,390
risk.
700
00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:52,430
So
701
00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,529
recycling is important from that perspective because we
702
00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:56,990
want to get these materials,
703
00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:59,610
buy them once from another country, get them
704
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,130
here and keep them here and recycle them
705
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,549
and keep them within our domestic boundaries.
706
00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,794
Another reason to recycle is
707
00:25:06,414 --> 00:25:06,914
because
708
00:25:07,454 --> 00:25:09,375
in some predictions, if we don't change our
709
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:11,615
chemistries, we're gonna actually run out of the
710
00:25:11,615 --> 00:25:14,035
materials, not have enough to meet our projections.
711
00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:17,190
Cobalt, specifically, is really difficult. So we have
712
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:19,109
to recycle those materials to make sure that
713
00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:20,169
we have them available
714
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:22,549
instead of just mining them, using them, and
715
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:23,529
throwing them off.
716
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:27,109
What are the main challenges facing a center
717
00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:28,649
like this in trying to develop
718
00:25:29,025 --> 00:25:30,965
better ways of recycled batteries?
719
00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,605
I see. I think
720
00:25:34,224 --> 00:25:36,305
there's two answers that I wanna I wanna
721
00:25:36,305 --> 00:25:39,025
give to that. One is our objective is
722
00:25:39,025 --> 00:25:40,164
to help industry.
723
00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:42,559
We want industry to succeed.
724
00:25:43,099 --> 00:25:45,259
And so there's a lot of good challenges
725
00:25:45,259 --> 00:25:46,140
out there that are,
726
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:48,160
that we're excited to tackle.
727
00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,200
And so we do work with industry.
728
00:25:51,579 --> 00:25:54,619
We work together collaboratively with them to address
729
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:55,440
these challenges.
730
00:25:57,065 --> 00:25:58,924
The other aspect of that is
731
00:25:59,384 --> 00:26:01,484
and this gets back into the direct recycling.
732
00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:03,484
We'll do
733
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:04,765
some more
734
00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:06,204
far out research.
735
00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:08,904
We'll look at some of the more challenging
736
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:11,940
stuff that industry maybe doesn't wanna spend the
737
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:12,680
money on.
738
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:16,440
And so we'll look at things like, originally,
739
00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,839
direct recycling was a very
740
00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,339
not well known. It was a not unknown,
741
00:26:22,339 --> 00:26:25,204
but not well known method of recycling batteries.
742
00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:26,785
That's you you have a battery and you
743
00:26:26,785 --> 00:26:28,505
make another battery with it. A little bit
744
00:26:28,625 --> 00:26:30,464
to be more specific on that, I guess,
745
00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:31,365
I would say
746
00:26:31,904 --> 00:26:34,384
direct recycling is to take it could be
747
00:26:34,384 --> 00:26:36,704
any material, but we focus on the cathode
748
00:26:36,704 --> 00:26:37,444
of the battery.
749
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:39,440
So we take the cathode,
750
00:26:40,059 --> 00:26:41,980
and instead of putting in an acid and
751
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,119
dissolving the metal
752
00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:45,900
into metal ions or putting it in a
753
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,380
furnace and melting it down into a a
754
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,759
reduced metal alloy,
755
00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,160
we keep it as a cathode.
756
00:26:53,054 --> 00:26:54,974
We fix it while it's still a cathode.
757
00:26:54,974 --> 00:26:57,554
It's never changing its cathode structure,
758
00:26:58,414 --> 00:27:00,654
and we're making new cathode out of it
759
00:27:00,654 --> 00:27:02,174
so it can go into a new battery.
760
00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:03,875
And the reason that's so important
761
00:27:04,494 --> 00:27:05,234
is because
762
00:27:05,774 --> 00:27:08,680
to make cathode, which is the most expensive
763
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,660
part of a battery,
764
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,440
it has two portions. There's the materials that
765
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,860
go into it, and then there's the processing,
766
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,700
the manufacturing cost of it.
767
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,080
When you dissolve in an acid or melt
768
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,299
it in a in a furnace,
769
00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:22,404
you have to take those materials
770
00:27:23,025 --> 00:27:25,265
and remanufacture that into a cathode, and that
771
00:27:25,265 --> 00:27:27,345
can be a substantial amount of the money
772
00:27:27,345 --> 00:27:28,244
to make cathode.
773
00:27:28,865 --> 00:27:31,265
So if you don't do that, the value
774
00:27:31,265 --> 00:27:32,005
is basically,
775
00:27:32,509 --> 00:27:33,570
in in some cases,
776
00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,950
half of the cost of a battery may
777
00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:38,529
be from raw materials. Sometimes 10%
778
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:41,470
is just is the raw materials, and 90%
779
00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,570
is the processing cost. And so
780
00:27:44,269 --> 00:27:46,610
huge opportunity for cost gains,
781
00:27:47,414 --> 00:27:49,115
improve economy and environmental,
782
00:27:49,735 --> 00:27:50,235
impacts.
783
00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:52,634
The the website mentions
784
00:27:53,015 --> 00:27:56,315
that Resell is working to advance recycling technologies
785
00:27:56,375 --> 00:27:59,174
for current and future battery chemistries. Mhmm. What
786
00:27:59,174 --> 00:27:59,914
is Resell?
787
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,099
Good question.
788
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,900
So resell is is a federally funded program
789
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:10,119
that is a a collaboration of four national
790
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,619
laboratories,
791
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,779
Argonne National Laboratory,
792
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,619
Oak Ridge National Laboratory,
793
00:28:15,315 --> 00:28:17,414
the National Renewable Energy Laboratory,
794
00:28:17,714 --> 00:28:19,255
and Idaho National Laboratory.
795
00:28:19,714 --> 00:28:21,634
We also have some universities that are doing
796
00:28:21,634 --> 00:28:23,875
work with us. But they have these four
797
00:28:23,875 --> 00:28:24,774
focus areas,
798
00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:25,974
direct recycling,
799
00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:27,894
advanced resource recovery,
800
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:31,529
design for sustainability, and modeling and analysis.
801
00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,470
And all of these focus areas are used
802
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,390
in order to reach the ultimate goal of
803
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:38,169
lowering the cost of new batteries.
804
00:28:39,109 --> 00:28:41,204
The whole thing has to come down to
805
00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:42,585
or comes down to
806
00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:43,544
decarbonizing
807
00:28:44,484 --> 00:28:45,144
our planet.
808
00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:46,265
And,
809
00:28:46,804 --> 00:28:49,285
to do that, batteries do a great job
810
00:28:49,285 --> 00:28:50,964
at it. And we wanna get more people
811
00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:53,125
driving EVs and using them in the grid
812
00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:54,964
and and all these applications. To do that,
813
00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,059
we need to lower the cost, And recycling
814
00:28:57,059 --> 00:28:59,159
is a huge opportunity to do that.
815
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,159
I'm really interested about this and future chemistries.
816
00:29:03,619 --> 00:29:05,380
What are those chemistries, and how much is
817
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:05,880
recyclability
818
00:29:06,259 --> 00:29:08,980
taken into account when people are developing new
819
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,359
battery types? Yeah.
820
00:29:10,795 --> 00:29:12,714
Great question. You you do ask all the
821
00:29:12,714 --> 00:29:13,455
good questions.
822
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:14,494
So
823
00:29:15,195 --> 00:29:17,695
we spend some time looking at
824
00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:18,815
new chemistries.
825
00:29:19,515 --> 00:29:21,295
We don't spend too much time because
826
00:29:21,755 --> 00:29:23,099
as you probably know,
827
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,579
some people may not. But, like, you'll see
828
00:29:25,579 --> 00:29:26,400
in the news,
829
00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:30,299
some group found the solution to the batteries,
830
00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:32,220
and it's gonna last a million years and
831
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:33,740
all that stuff. But you see it all
832
00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:35,444
over the place, and that may be at
833
00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:36,984
milligram quantity,
834
00:29:38,244 --> 00:29:38,744
scales
835
00:29:39,605 --> 00:29:40,005
or,
836
00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,125
you know, maybe not feasible at in large
837
00:29:43,125 --> 00:29:43,625
quantity.
838
00:29:44,005 --> 00:29:46,664
So we take advantage of in a vehicle,
839
00:29:47,524 --> 00:29:49,764
a vehicle last fifteen years. So if it's
840
00:29:49,764 --> 00:29:50,664
not in production,
841
00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:53,860
we we know we don't need to worry
842
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,620
about it too much. But we wanna make
843
00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:57,240
sure that we're looking at chemistries
844
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,340
that are starting to take shape that are
845
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,100
gonna end up on a vehicle or in
846
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:02,759
some application.
847
00:30:03,505 --> 00:30:05,585
And we wanna make sure that it's not
848
00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,365
going to cause a big problem
849
00:30:08,144 --> 00:30:10,865
because you can contaminate a big stream if
850
00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,065
you have a little bit of something in
851
00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:13,505
it. So if they're using a little bit
852
00:30:13,505 --> 00:30:15,284
of something in it, we wanna
853
00:30:15,919 --> 00:30:18,419
recommend that they don't go with that chemistry.
854
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,779
So we have four focus areas in resell.
855
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,339
There is direct recycling.
856
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,460
There is, advanced resource recovery.
857
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,140
That's our second one. Advanced resource recovery is
858
00:30:31,815 --> 00:30:34,134
the, recovery of materials that we can't directly
859
00:30:34,134 --> 00:30:34,634
recycle.
860
00:30:35,494 --> 00:30:37,674
Then there is modeling and analysis
861
00:30:38,454 --> 00:30:38,954
and
862
00:30:39,335 --> 00:30:40,554
design for sustainability.
863
00:30:40,855 --> 00:30:43,274
And design for sustainability is what I wanna
864
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:43,835
mention.
865
00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:48,390
We want to make our batteries, use materials,
866
00:30:48,769 --> 00:30:50,150
use assembly methods
867
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:52,930
in a way we wanna make them better.
868
00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:55,170
We wanna design better ways, better materials to
869
00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,430
put into our batteries so that the recycling
870
00:30:58,054 --> 00:31:00,634
can be handled more easily, more cost effectively.
871
00:31:01,414 --> 00:31:04,134
And that's probably the most challenging focus area
872
00:31:04,134 --> 00:31:05,595
that we have is
873
00:31:05,974 --> 00:31:08,154
trying to change what's working today
874
00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:10,794
so that it's easier to recycle tomorrow.
875
00:31:12,259 --> 00:31:14,599
It's it's just when things aren't broken,
876
00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:16,440
don't fix them kinda
877
00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:18,500
just challenging. But those are the things that
878
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,899
we're doing, we're very aware of. And you
879
00:31:20,899 --> 00:31:22,659
think about anything when you look around a
880
00:31:22,659 --> 00:31:25,700
room, what's designed for recycling? What's designed for
881
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:26,200
sustainability?
882
00:31:27,355 --> 00:31:29,674
There are some, like, our water bottles got
883
00:31:29,674 --> 00:31:32,015
thinner plastics. Right? So that's good.
884
00:31:32,394 --> 00:31:34,954
And I think that's always a consideration. But
885
00:31:34,954 --> 00:31:36,714
what, you know, what big changes can we
886
00:31:36,714 --> 00:31:38,714
make that are really gonna catapult us into
887
00:31:38,714 --> 00:31:40,335
the next generation of design?
888
00:31:40,714 --> 00:31:42,095
I think that's really cool.
889
00:31:42,679 --> 00:31:44,059
Final question then. You know?
890
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,519
What's what's the dream here? Where's where's the
891
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,759
field headache? Give me your your sort of
892
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:50,919
vision for a future of battery cycle. How
893
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:52,359
how would it work in your sort of
894
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:53,339
ideal system?
895
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:54,539
Oh,
896
00:31:54,875 --> 00:31:56,494
how much time do you have?
897
00:31:56,875 --> 00:31:58,875
No. I think the real quick answer or
898
00:31:58,875 --> 00:32:00,575
the quickest answer is
899
00:32:01,035 --> 00:32:03,535
it's circular. We get to that circular
900
00:32:04,154 --> 00:32:06,634
economy that that people like to say. So
901
00:32:06,634 --> 00:32:08,414
we buy these materials once.
902
00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:09,769
And in the beginning,
903
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:12,170
you know, I'm not naive to think that
904
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,590
these batteries are gonna power our vehicles or
905
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:17,369
store the energy that powers our vehicles
906
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:20,390
forever. Right? There's this s curve. So we're
907
00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:21,910
just we're at the bottom of the s
908
00:32:21,910 --> 00:32:24,365
curve. But as we get more materials available
909
00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:26,125
for recycling, we can put them into the
910
00:32:26,125 --> 00:32:28,125
recycling that we have. And, eventually, there's that
911
00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:30,444
inflection point where we can put most of
912
00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:31,744
that material into
913
00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:32,625
recycling
914
00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:34,144
into new products,
915
00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:35,585
and we can actually
916
00:32:36,569 --> 00:32:39,470
require very little material to make our batteries.
917
00:32:39,609 --> 00:32:42,009
At some point, though, something's gonna replace lithium
918
00:32:42,009 --> 00:32:44,250
ion batteries just like we're replacing the internal
919
00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:45,549
combustion engine now.
920
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:47,069
And so
921
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:48,349
during the lifespan
922
00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:50,569
or the majority of the lifespan of these
923
00:32:50,569 --> 00:32:51,630
lithium ion batteries,
924
00:32:51,955 --> 00:32:53,475
I think, you know, towards the end, we
925
00:32:53,475 --> 00:32:55,575
wanna be able to have this complete circularity
926
00:32:56,195 --> 00:32:58,434
or near complete circularity so that we don't
927
00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:01,154
have this this security risk of relying on
928
00:33:01,154 --> 00:33:04,355
other other countries. We have cost. You know,
929
00:33:04,355 --> 00:33:06,695
if you have a a pile of dirt
930
00:33:07,369 --> 00:33:08,750
and a pile of batteries,
931
00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:10,730
you know, which one would you think would
932
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:12,890
be cheaper to get the raw materials to
933
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,769
make a battery from? Right? It's probably from
934
00:33:15,769 --> 00:33:16,269
batteries.
935
00:33:16,650 --> 00:33:18,730
Now we just happen to be processing dirt
936
00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:20,090
for so long. We're good at it, and
937
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,484
we're at scale, and we're not. Recycling batteries
938
00:33:22,484 --> 00:33:24,744
is very new. But, eventually, they're gonna equalize,
939
00:33:25,285 --> 00:33:27,045
and, and they're gonna be a great resource
940
00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:29,224
for those materials. So yeah.
941
00:33:29,924 --> 00:33:31,144
Thank you very much.
942
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,539
That was Jeffrey Spangenberger
943
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:43,099
of Argonne National Laboratory
944
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:44,460
in conversation
945
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,259
with Physics World's Margaret Harris.
946
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,304
Before that, Margaret spoke with Nadia Mason of
947
00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:52,924
the University of Chicago.
948
00:33:53,384 --> 00:33:55,785
Thanks to all three of them for coming
949
00:33:55,785 --> 00:33:56,765
on the podcast.
950
00:33:57,464 --> 00:34:00,184
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred
951
00:34:00,184 --> 00:34:00,684
Isles.
952
00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:03,720
On the May,
953
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,419
The Economist is hosting
954
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:06,299
commercializing
955
00:34:06,919 --> 00:34:07,900
quantum global
956
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,380
twenty twenty five in London.
957
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:11,420
Participants
958
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,059
will join global leaders from business,
959
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,739
science, and policy
960
00:34:16,194 --> 00:34:19,635
for two days of real world insights into
961
00:34:19,635 --> 00:34:20,775
quantum's future.
962
00:34:21,234 --> 00:34:25,174
In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,
963
00:34:25,635 --> 00:34:26,135
communications,
964
00:34:26,594 --> 00:34:27,335
and sensing.
965
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:29,655
And you'll discover how these technologies
966
00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:31,574
are shaping industries,
967
00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:34,590
economies, and global regulation.
968
00:34:35,369 --> 00:34:40,989
You can register for the event at events.economist.com.
969
00:34:41,289 --> 00:34:43,210
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
970
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:44,429
for this week's podcast.
971
00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:47,210
We'll be back again next week. See you
972
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:47,710
then.
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,119
Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
2
00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:11,619
podcast.
3
00:00:12,755 --> 00:00:14,615
Home to nearly 10,000,000
4
00:00:14,675 --> 00:00:16,214
people, the Chicago
5
00:00:16,595 --> 00:00:17,095
Metropolitan
6
00:00:17,554 --> 00:00:19,255
Area or Chicagoland
7
00:00:20,274 --> 00:00:23,154
is one of the largest urban areas in
8
00:00:23,154 --> 00:00:23,894
The US.
9
00:00:24,675 --> 00:00:25,494
A scientific
10
00:00:25,875 --> 00:00:26,375
powerhouse,
11
00:00:27,070 --> 00:00:29,010
the region is home to two
12
00:00:29,390 --> 00:00:30,929
US national labs,
13
00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:32,770
Argonne and Fermilab,
14
00:00:33,469 --> 00:00:36,530
as well as top notch academic institutions,
15
00:00:37,309 --> 00:00:39,409
including the University of Chicago
16
00:00:39,789 --> 00:00:40,609
and Northwestern
17
00:00:40,989 --> 00:00:41,489
University.
18
00:00:43,015 --> 00:00:46,875
Physics World's Margaret Harris was in Chicagoland recently
19
00:00:47,175 --> 00:00:48,795
and met two scientists.
20
00:00:49,495 --> 00:00:51,115
One who leads a national
21
00:00:51,655 --> 00:00:55,355
collaborative center focused on the future of battery
22
00:00:55,495 --> 00:00:55,995
recycling,
23
00:00:56,850 --> 00:00:59,350
And the other who leads an institution
24
00:01:00,130 --> 00:01:01,750
dedicated to molecular
25
00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:02,630
engineering.
26
00:01:03,729 --> 00:01:04,629
Those conversations
27
00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,730
are coming up after this message about an
28
00:01:07,730 --> 00:01:11,189
event that's sponsored by the Institute of Physics,
29
00:01:11,674 --> 00:01:14,415
which also brings you Physics World.
30
00:01:14,954 --> 00:01:17,534
On the May,
31
00:01:17,594 --> 00:01:18,335
The Economist
32
00:01:18,715 --> 00:01:19,454
is hosting
33
00:01:19,755 --> 00:01:20,255
commercializing
34
00:01:21,034 --> 00:01:24,655
Quantum Global twenty twenty five in London.
35
00:01:25,530 --> 00:01:28,909
Participants will join global leaders from business,
36
00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,829
science, and policy
37
00:01:31,370 --> 00:01:34,890
for two days of real world insights into
38
00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:35,950
quantum's future.
39
00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:40,884
In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,
40
00:01:41,344 --> 00:01:41,844
communications,
41
00:01:42,304 --> 00:01:43,125
and sensing,
42
00:01:43,504 --> 00:01:46,884
and discover how these technologies are shaping industries,
43
00:01:47,424 --> 00:01:47,924
economies,
44
00:01:48,384 --> 00:01:49,765
and global regulation.
45
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:56,020
You can register for the event at events.economist.com.
46
00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:59,380
First up, Margaret speaks with the physicist
47
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:00,820
Nadia Mason.
48
00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:04,755
She's dean of the Pritzker School of Molecular
49
00:02:05,055 --> 00:02:05,555
Engineering
50
00:02:05,855 --> 00:02:07,635
at the University of Chicago,
51
00:02:08,094 --> 00:02:10,514
which focuses on quantum engineering,
52
00:02:11,215 --> 00:02:12,675
materials for sustainability,
53
00:02:13,455 --> 00:02:14,355
and immuno
54
00:02:14,735 --> 00:02:15,235
engineering.
55
00:02:15,775 --> 00:02:17,155
Here's that conversation.
56
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,419
So first question is, you know, molecular engineering
57
00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:30,659
is kind of a a new concept.
58
00:02:31,295 --> 00:02:33,135
How would you define this term, and how
59
00:02:33,135 --> 00:02:34,675
does that sort of explain
60
00:02:34,974 --> 00:02:36,675
all the things that we're going on here?
61
00:02:37,055 --> 00:02:39,694
So molecular engineering is, it's new. It's it's
62
00:02:39,694 --> 00:02:42,115
an exciting way, I think, of putting together
63
00:02:43,135 --> 00:02:45,635
different fields that have the same goals.
64
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:46,580
So
65
00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:48,719
the idea is that you're you're building things
66
00:02:48,719 --> 00:02:50,959
from the from the molecular level up. And
67
00:02:50,959 --> 00:02:53,199
it's something that you couldn't do years ago
68
00:02:53,199 --> 00:02:55,300
because you didn't have the ability to manipulate
69
00:02:55,519 --> 00:02:57,439
individual molecules in the same way or even
70
00:02:57,439 --> 00:02:59,955
image individual molecules. You know, the revolution in
71
00:03:00,194 --> 00:03:02,915
nanotechnology in the seventies and eighties and nineties
72
00:03:02,915 --> 00:03:04,915
is really what led today to our ability
73
00:03:04,915 --> 00:03:06,935
to even think about how do we
74
00:03:07,634 --> 00:03:08,694
engineer and manipulate,
75
00:03:09,395 --> 00:03:09,895
combine
76
00:03:10,594 --> 00:03:13,669
things at this really basic molecular level
77
00:03:14,050 --> 00:03:16,530
to to move toward applications that that utilize
78
00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:18,530
them. You know, I'm I come from physics,
79
00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:19,909
so I think about atoms.
80
00:03:20,689 --> 00:03:21,669
You know? And
81
00:03:22,050 --> 00:03:24,235
we still don't have the ability, really, I
82
00:03:24,235 --> 00:03:26,074
mean, to to put together atoms in a
83
00:03:26,074 --> 00:03:27,995
way that leads to functional devices. We can
84
00:03:27,995 --> 00:03:29,914
do it with scanning tunneling microscopy, but we
85
00:03:29,914 --> 00:03:32,155
really can't do it at the single atomic
86
00:03:32,155 --> 00:03:34,394
level. Right? And before, we couldn't even do
87
00:03:34,394 --> 00:03:35,914
that at the molecular level, but now we
88
00:03:35,914 --> 00:03:38,519
can with different capabilities in in in chemical
89
00:03:38,519 --> 00:03:41,979
engineering, in materials engineering, in physics. By combining
90
00:03:42,039 --> 00:03:43,879
all of those things, we can now think
91
00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:46,219
about, okay, how do we take a molecule
92
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,699
and functionalize it in just the right way
93
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,205
to lead to the next,
94
00:03:50,844 --> 00:03:53,564
you know, therapeutic that helps cure cancer? How
95
00:03:53,564 --> 00:03:54,944
do we take a
96
00:03:55,485 --> 00:03:57,965
nano sized bit of of material, which you
97
00:03:57,965 --> 00:04:00,365
can think of on the molecular scale, and
98
00:04:00,365 --> 00:04:02,844
engineer defects to make the next generation of
99
00:04:02,844 --> 00:04:03,780
quantum sensor?
100
00:04:04,259 --> 00:04:05,240
How do we take
101
00:04:05,620 --> 00:04:07,620
materials that form the backbone of our most
102
00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:09,000
common plastics and
103
00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:11,860
modify them on really the atom by atom
104
00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:13,560
level to make them more recyclable?
105
00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:15,539
These are things I I think we just
106
00:04:15,539 --> 00:04:16,819
couldn't do, but now we know how. So
107
00:04:16,819 --> 00:04:18,875
that those those form the basis of molecular
108
00:04:19,014 --> 00:04:21,175
engineering. It's it's it's a way of of
109
00:04:21,175 --> 00:04:22,074
thinking about
110
00:04:22,454 --> 00:04:23,675
engineering the future
111
00:04:24,615 --> 00:04:25,834
from a small scale
112
00:04:26,214 --> 00:04:27,115
to the largest.
113
00:04:27,735 --> 00:04:29,670
And so I think you you've got, I
114
00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:31,750
hear the Pritzker School of Nucklesh Yes. Got
115
00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:34,170
three different sort of fields, I think. So
116
00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:37,189
we're talking mostly about energy and quantum today
117
00:04:37,350 --> 00:04:38,709
Yeah. Yeah. The ones that are closest to
118
00:04:38,709 --> 00:04:40,569
physics. But I guess there's also immunoengineering.
119
00:04:40,949 --> 00:04:41,689
That's right.
120
00:04:42,069 --> 00:04:43,990
What do you see as the connections between
121
00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:46,125
these areas? How does that what's that kind
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of cross pollination that you see between them?
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Yeah. Great question. Well, I mean, at at
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UChicago, we thought we wanted we didn't wanna
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create a traditional school of engineering that had
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departments that were just defined by whatever terms
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were important in the early nineteen hundreds, like,
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you know, mechanics. I mean, it's still important,
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but it's not that doesn't that doesn't define
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a problem. It defines an an area of,
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you know, a very broad area of training.
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So the idea is today, how do you
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think about the problems we wanna solve and
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train for those? And so that's how we
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chose these three areas. There were things that
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were both relevant right now that were that
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we could build on existing strengths at Chicago
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UChicago and in the community, but also that
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we thought were going to be really important
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for the future. So quantum engineering is is
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now. It's happening. This is something that when
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I started in grad school, it was just
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quantum mechanics, and now we're we have companies
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and we're designing devices. And, you know, engineering,
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same thing. This is related to really the
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fundamentals of how you manipulate molecules for for
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biology and for therapeutics and applications in the
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biological sphere.
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And especially immunology is something that even in
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the past ten years, it's become more fear
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that the immune system affects almost every disease
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that we that we have. I think something
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like eighty percent of deaths are actually immune
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system disorders
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that, you know, that something breaks down and
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then then affects the immune system, which is
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what causes your organs to fail and you
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to die. And then same thing with molecular
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engineering, for energy and sustainability. That is, of
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course, one of the biggest problems we have
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out there. Now the great thing is because
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we're thinking all about molecules manipulating,
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having things interact across the board, across what
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are really disparate fields,
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what you'd think are disparate fields,
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our faculty and researchers can use similar techniques
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to work you know, to inform each other.
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They can they can think about applications
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that they might not have thought of otherwise.
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You know, so one example is I was
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just in the lab of one of of
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two of our faculty who are in the
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quantum group, but also in the immuno group,
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because one of them, Peter Maurer, is using
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quantum sensors.
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So,
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vacancy sensors and, you know, vacancies in in
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materials, and now even proteins in biological systems
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as quantum states to image biological systems. And
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so the student who I was talking to
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in his lab yesterday is a is a
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biophysicist
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who is actually, like, making,
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you know, fluorophores. And, there is some green
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thing that was like an algae somewhere. I
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don't know. I don't even know what they
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were doing with it, but it was funny
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seeing it in a lab that had dilution
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refrigerators and lasers and things like that because
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they're they're not just, like, trapping and moving
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things around. They're actually using proteins as quantum
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sensors to, you know, to
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image what's happening in individual cells to see
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what, you know, ion channels and things are
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doing for for that can affect specific biological
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functions. And so, you know, another one of
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our faculty, Sihang Huang, is looking at
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bioadhesives. So he's confining material science and looking
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at how to make adhesives, but functionalizing
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them to work on organs with immunoreceptors
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and things that make them
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both compatible, but also can, you know, suppress
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very specific reactions when you use these adhesives
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in situ in your body. And he's one
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of the first people to ever do this.
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And, you know, again, they're working he's he
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was working directly with other faculty who just
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have who know the immunotherapies. And in the
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Quantum Lab, they're working directly with, people who
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work on therapeutics. So I think there's you
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know, we always talk about how exciting science
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happens at the interface, but here, you know,
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we're all in the same building. And I've
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personally never seen
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so many
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actual collaborations between people in what seems like
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really disparate fields, but are just breaking boundaries
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all the way. So super exciting, I think,
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for us, but also
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for our collective future.
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How does your own research fit into that?
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You know, you've been talking about other people's
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research. Yeah. How do you see your your
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own research? Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah.
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So I'm a I'm I'm trained as a
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quantum physicist.
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All of my all of my degrees are
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in physics, and I focus on correlated electronic
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systems. So systems where the electrons interact strongly
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or nanoscale systems where you get new behaviors
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because things are are so
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small. I'm really more on the on the
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quantum material side, which is looking at
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at
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how do you you know, what what new
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functionalities can you get out of materials when
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you think about them in the in the
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quantum regime.
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These are, you know, this is directly relevant
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to a lot of our quantum engineering that's
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going on where we're thinking about, you know,
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what are what are the next generation of
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quantum sensors? What are the what are the
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next you know, how do we connect classical
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computers
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to quantum computers? How do we make quantum
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computer computers more
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more viable by increasing their coherence on the
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long on long time scales?
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You know, I think I I do the
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my group does the does the legwork to
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think of the next generation of of materials
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and applications and phenomena that can feed into
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all of this sort of quantum engineering. Now
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you ask how it bridges. It bridges because
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I think of materials as backbone of everything.
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Right? If you you if you have if
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you have a new material,
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then you can find all sorts of uses
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and applications for it. So you can think
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of these new, we work on graphene, which
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is a purely two dimensional material. That's something
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that people in quantum care about because it's
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an electronic material, but also in, you know,
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our immuno engineers are using this as as
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scaffolding, as a flexible scaffolding for different types
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of of, of functionalized membranes, for example. So,
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you know, the material backbone is another thing
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that crosses all of all of these things.
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And you talk about, you know, some trends
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and developments in the field to know. What
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is what is coming up that you're most
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excited about
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five years in the future, three years in
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the future? Yeah.
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I I touched on this a little already,
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but I really think it is the intersection
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of these different fields. I think that that
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the intersection of biology and quantum is something
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that that our our faculty have been exploring
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extremely successfully that I think is is viable,
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that we will have a quantum sensor that
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can look inside a cell and will have
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direct applications for
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for therapeutics,
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in a way that we just couldn't see
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thing at a in a scale we couldn't
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see things before.
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I think that's, you know, that's five years
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down the line. I think that'll be revolutionary.
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As I mentioned, materials people who are also
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combining materials and medicine in a in in
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a way that comes from that from working
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with deeply people who are deeply knowledgeable
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about the medicine and working directly with them
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to make things that not only, like, you
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know, kind of work inside a body, but
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make it better. Right? They can now heal
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things but work.
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You know, in the in the area of
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of climate and energy, which is incredibly important
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for the future,
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you know, we
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we will have new battery technologies, for example.
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There's new, non lithium batteries coming online, sodium
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batteries, for example, that'll be cheaper, that'll be
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faster, that'll be more efficient. We're working directly
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on those.
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I think
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I I'm excited to see
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how we will continue
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to address
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our needs for
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we we have a new institute for for
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climate and and sustainable growth, and so I've
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been thinking a lot about sustainable growth. And,
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you know, so we we do have a
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need for growth in our society, but, of
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course, globally as well. Right? We we all
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deserve higher living standards globally, not just in
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this country, why we deserve to have healthy,
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happy lives. That doesn't mean more money or
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technology,
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but to get there,
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we will need to equalize the amount of
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resources and technology that are available. We need
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to do that in a sustainable way. And
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to get there, we need to invent those
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technologies to make them cheap enough, to make
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them effective enough, to make them available enough
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to help lift everyone in in the world,
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not just The US, but everywhere. And so
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it's a long winded way of saying, I'm
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excited because I think we can get there.
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I think that the next five to ten
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years, because we have to, there'll be an
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explosion in in developing those sort of technologies
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across across the board. I really you know?
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And okay. I'm I'm biased toward the three
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areas that we focus on, but I think
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that these are areas that are are going
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to continue to explode in in the buy
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in the biomedical space, in the energy space,
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in the quantum space,
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and in the climate space also.
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Yeah. You talked about, you know, getting there
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in the next five to ten years. What
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are the big challenges? What are the barriers
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you have to overcome to
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to produce a quantum sense of the Yeah.
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Incense in Yeah. In the human body to
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develop sustainable materials. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,
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this brings us all the way back to
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molecular engineering in the materials space. Sometimes we
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just need to jump in materials. We need
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to be need to understand materials better to
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improve their properties. So in quantum, one of
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the biggest limitations is that we we can't
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maintain our quantum wave functions. It's the coherence
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times. Those are often materials problems. We have
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to know what's what is preventing what is
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making the these quantum states unstable,
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and and how do we engineer that away.
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And we're making strides toward that, but I
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think we have to do a better job
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of that. And or how do we engineer
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around it to mitigate those effects, like error
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correction in quantum computing? We're making strides toward
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that too. But some of that is incremental
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strides that are necessary, and some of it
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is actually jumps in knowledge. You know? It
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it you can it's when I think about
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fundamental jumps, they can be in fundamental science,
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but you also need fundamental engineering jumps. They
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think back to the transistor and why we
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have microelectronics
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today. It was the invention of the transistor
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that was one big jump. But then the
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invention of the integrated circuit, which is really
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an engineering feat, was the next big jump
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that allowed us to go from something that
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was as big as our hand to something
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that, you know, as, you know, supercomputer in
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our pocket, basically. Right? Our our phones. Right?
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All these things. So so we need some
386
00:14:02,674 --> 00:14:04,529
of those, you know a lot of the
387
00:14:04,529 --> 00:14:06,290
fundamental jumps have been made, but we need
388
00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:07,970
some of those engineering jumps to be made.
389
00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:09,330
And I think across the board in in
390
00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:11,730
battery space too. You know, we know we
391
00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:13,250
know where we want to go, but what
392
00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:14,690
are the materials that allow us to do
393
00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:16,584
that? How do we actually connect them? How
394
00:14:16,584 --> 00:14:18,264
do we think in new ways? How do
395
00:14:18,264 --> 00:14:20,105
we just kinda free our brains and have
396
00:14:20,105 --> 00:14:22,424
those moments that, okay, we can we can
397
00:14:22,424 --> 00:14:24,345
do this or even just play around and
398
00:14:24,345 --> 00:14:26,745
discover suddenly that this works in a way
399
00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:27,644
that was unexpected?
400
00:14:28,184 --> 00:14:30,480
We we need more of those moments to
401
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,919
build the future. And I think that as
402
00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:34,019
long as we keep supporting basic
403
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:34,899
engineering
404
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:37,039
and science, we'll get there. But we do
405
00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:39,139
need to keep pushing in those directions.
406
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:40,580
So
407
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,679
you talk about the the need to improve
408
00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:45,975
materials, the need to improve the the basic
409
00:14:46,214 --> 00:14:48,454
functionality. But after that, of course, there's a
410
00:14:48,454 --> 00:14:51,574
challenge of taking those things into commercialization and
411
00:14:51,574 --> 00:14:53,574
eventually to market. How what are some of
412
00:14:53,574 --> 00:14:55,654
the ideas that you have to overcome that
413
00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:57,654
that gap? Yeah. I think there's there's there's
414
00:14:57,654 --> 00:14:59,815
a broad understanding everywhere from the NSF up
415
00:14:59,815 --> 00:15:01,240
to the highest, you know, levels of government
416
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,940
and in the labs that we can't
417
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,480
it's not good enough to just invent something
418
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:06,759
in the lab, especially in the school of
419
00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:08,919
engineering. You really wanna get what you your
420
00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,240
idea to have effect, have impact. And to
421
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,200
do that, you have to get in the
422
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,804
hands of people who will use it. And
423
00:15:13,804 --> 00:15:14,924
to do that, you have to work with
424
00:15:14,924 --> 00:15:16,845
companies. You have to either start your own
425
00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:19,485
company that's gonna utilize these these devices and
426
00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:20,845
these things that you make or work with
427
00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:21,745
existing companies.
428
00:15:22,204 --> 00:15:25,024
We really believe in that. We've been, supporting
429
00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,784
faculty starting companies,
430
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720
working working with companies, and working with industry
431
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,740
at every level, including having starting,
432
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,759
you know, networks that have industry come into
433
00:15:34,759 --> 00:15:36,840
our labs and tell us what their greatest
434
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,519
needs are and us tell them what we're
435
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:40,200
working on and what's cutting edge and so
436
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,879
we can work together to bring things quickly
437
00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:44,904
to market. It's also important to just to
438
00:15:44,904 --> 00:15:47,004
understand that we face such big challenges
439
00:15:47,384 --> 00:15:50,125
that no one lab, no one
440
00:15:50,425 --> 00:15:53,085
school, no one university can do this alone.
441
00:15:53,225 --> 00:15:54,825
And one of the things that has really
442
00:15:54,825 --> 00:15:57,209
attracted me the most to being in Chicago
443
00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,549
and at the University of Chicago is that
444
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:02,089
we've been able to participate in and really
445
00:16:02,089 --> 00:16:03,309
help create ecosystems
446
00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:04,350
that
447
00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:05,309
build
448
00:16:06,409 --> 00:16:09,129
industries and that build these connections between basic
449
00:16:09,129 --> 00:16:10,110
research and
450
00:16:10,504 --> 00:16:13,225
impact as efficiently as possible. So we work
451
00:16:13,225 --> 00:16:15,865
with the national labs very, very closely. We
452
00:16:15,865 --> 00:16:17,945
work with with companies. We work with the
453
00:16:17,945 --> 00:16:20,345
government. We work with the other universities across
454
00:16:20,345 --> 00:16:22,264
the state and across Midwest and and across
455
00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,320
the world even to make sure that we
456
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,379
create ecosystems
457
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:26,500
that support
458
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:27,700
research,
459
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:28,660
products,
460
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,100
impact, and improve lives as efficiently as possible.
461
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,240
And we've done that in the quantum sphere
462
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,920
here in Chicago. I think we've we've really
463
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,840
helped make Chicago the the center of the
464
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,154
quantum world. This happened because of a big
465
00:16:40,154 --> 00:16:42,955
support from the government, the governor from especially
466
00:16:42,955 --> 00:16:45,195
the state government, governor Pritzker, has been incredibly
467
00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:48,075
supportive of quantum. We've worked really closely with
468
00:16:48,075 --> 00:16:50,715
our our state universities, University of Illinois, with
469
00:16:50,715 --> 00:16:53,230
Northwestern University, and with the labs, and been
470
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:55,470
able to build something where quantum companies now
471
00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:57,410
want to come here to work with researchers,
472
00:16:57,790 --> 00:16:59,950
to build things, to test, to make sure
473
00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:02,029
that we can just get this technology furthered
474
00:17:02,029 --> 00:17:04,029
as as quickly as possible. And we wanna
475
00:17:04,029 --> 00:17:05,549
do that in the energy sphere. We wanna
476
00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:07,230
do that in the biosphere. We wanna make
477
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:08,894
sure that that we're
478
00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,994
having impact as efficiently as possible. And we're
479
00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:13,694
getting really good at that. So I'm I'm
480
00:17:13,755 --> 00:17:15,434
incredibly excited to see what happens in the
481
00:17:15,434 --> 00:17:16,795
next five years. So I think there'll there'll
482
00:17:16,795 --> 00:17:18,494
be a lot a lot of positive change.
483
00:17:19,434 --> 00:17:21,799
Elijah Mason, thank you very much. My pleasure.
484
00:17:28,819 --> 00:17:31,619
That was Nadia Mason of the University of
485
00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:32,119
Chicago
486
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,720
in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris.
487
00:17:36,734 --> 00:17:39,875
Now, Margaret speaks with Jeffrey Spangenberger,
488
00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,115
who leads the Materials
489
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:45,634
Recycling Group at Argonne National Laboratory.
490
00:17:46,494 --> 00:17:48,835
They talk about the Resell Center,
491
00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:49,880
a national
492
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,799
collaboration of industry,
493
00:17:52,339 --> 00:17:52,839
academia,
494
00:17:53,299 --> 00:17:54,680
and national laboratories
495
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,039
that Spangenberger
496
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:57,080
leads.
497
00:17:57,539 --> 00:17:59,480
He explains how ReCell
498
00:17:59,779 --> 00:18:00,519
is advancing
499
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:01,320
recycling
500
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,664
for current and future
501
00:18:03,965 --> 00:18:05,105
battery technologies.
502
00:18:13,005 --> 00:18:14,365
The first thing I wanted to ask, you
503
00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,309
know, just as when you're talking about battery
504
00:18:16,309 --> 00:18:17,830
recycling, what types of batteries are we talking
505
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:19,029
about? Are we talking about the batteries in
506
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:20,809
your phone, batteries in your car,
507
00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:22,650
both, everything?
508
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,450
Yeah.
509
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:24,730
Specifically,
510
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:27,450
right now, we're focused on lithium ion batteries.
511
00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:31,204
Not lithium metal batteries, lithium ion batteries.
512
00:18:31,904 --> 00:18:33,505
But they can be in your car, in
513
00:18:33,505 --> 00:18:34,964
your EV, your hybrid,
514
00:18:35,585 --> 00:18:37,984
or they could be in your phone, your
515
00:18:37,984 --> 00:18:38,644
cell phone.
516
00:18:39,024 --> 00:18:40,964
They could also be in storage
517
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,539
applications, so the grid
518
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,140
or your your house backup, things like that.
519
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,240
So how do you recycle a battery? Like,
520
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,619
what goes into that process?
521
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:52,740
So
522
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,000
the actual process of of a battery is
523
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:56,500
done
524
00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:59,994
more prominently in two different fashions. There's
525
00:19:00,615 --> 00:19:01,115
hydrometallurgical
526
00:19:01,654 --> 00:19:03,035
recycling, and there's pyrometallurgical
527
00:19:03,494 --> 00:19:03,994
recycling.
528
00:19:05,494 --> 00:19:06,315
In pyrometallurgical
529
00:19:06,775 --> 00:19:07,275
recycling,
530
00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:10,934
we use heat to essentially burn off with
531
00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:11,515
the organics,
532
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,220
and then the metals are recovered
533
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,180
in,
534
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,539
in the furnace.
535
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,259
And there's two fractions. There's,
536
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,200
a metal alloy, which has a lot of
537
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,279
the great metals, and then the copper, the
538
00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:25,180
precious metals,
539
00:19:25,595 --> 00:19:26,875
which are not really in too much on
540
00:19:26,875 --> 00:19:28,714
a battery except maybe on a on a
541
00:19:28,714 --> 00:19:31,355
electric panel or something like that. But there
542
00:19:31,355 --> 00:19:33,275
is also a slag, and then that slag
543
00:19:33,275 --> 00:19:34,894
contains lithium metal,
544
00:19:35,355 --> 00:19:35,855
unfortunately,
545
00:19:36,234 --> 00:19:38,315
as well as aluminum. Those two are in
546
00:19:38,315 --> 00:19:38,974
in batteries.
547
00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:40,990
They can be recovered, but it's a little
548
00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:43,009
bit more difficult than they would be normally.
549
00:19:43,309 --> 00:19:43,809
So
550
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:45,490
that's one of the
551
00:19:45,789 --> 00:19:47,170
the issues with pyro.
552
00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:49,630
That's not to say that pyro isn't good.
553
00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:51,549
There are a lot of good applications for
554
00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:52,049
pyro.
555
00:19:52,434 --> 00:19:54,994
And and there's not one hydro or pyro
556
00:19:54,994 --> 00:19:57,154
is not gonna take over the world in
557
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:58,855
recycling. There are a lot of different
558
00:19:59,315 --> 00:20:00,695
pros and cons of each.
559
00:20:01,234 --> 00:20:03,174
In hydro metallurgic or recycling,
560
00:20:03,955 --> 00:20:04,615
you usually
561
00:20:04,994 --> 00:20:07,575
shred the battery to liberate the metals.
562
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:10,420
Metals are typically what you're going after as
563
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:11,960
a number one material.
564
00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:13,960
You put it in acid.
565
00:20:14,819 --> 00:20:17,940
You dissolve the the metals, and then you
566
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:18,440
can
567
00:20:18,819 --> 00:20:20,805
separate those metals out
568
00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:23,525
and and recover them and put them into
569
00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:25,625
new new products that way.
570
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:28,085
So those are the two main ones. We
571
00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:29,045
also work,
572
00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:32,325
along with some other companies on direct recycling,
573
00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,105
which is a third type of recycling.
574
00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:37,589
There's also the other materials other than metals
575
00:20:37,589 --> 00:20:39,609
that you wanna get from recycling, plastics.
576
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:40,630
There's,
577
00:20:41,509 --> 00:20:43,349
fluorinated products, which we need to make sure
578
00:20:43,349 --> 00:20:44,570
we keep our eye on.
579
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:46,470
That would be in the polymers that are
580
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,230
in the some of the polymers that are
581
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:49,930
in a a lithium ion battery.
582
00:20:50,855 --> 00:20:53,414
The electrolyte salt has fluorine in it. So
583
00:20:53,414 --> 00:20:54,875
these are all materials that,
584
00:20:55,174 --> 00:20:56,634
you know, should be dealt with.
585
00:20:57,255 --> 00:20:58,555
What else is in a battery?
586
00:20:59,255 --> 00:21:01,994
The anode. So the anode is typically graphite.
587
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119
It it is a larger portion of the
588
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,759
battery mass wise, and so we wanna we
589
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:10,559
wanna reuse those materials as much as possible.
590
00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:11,220
In fact,
591
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:13,700
natural graphite is a critical material
592
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,315
that not many people think about. But and
593
00:21:17,315 --> 00:21:19,954
and there's both synthetic and graphite and and
594
00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,775
natural graphite in these batteries, so
595
00:21:23,315 --> 00:21:25,234
it's important that we recycle those as well
596
00:21:25,234 --> 00:21:26,994
and not just go after the money making
597
00:21:26,994 --> 00:21:27,494
metals.
598
00:21:28,434 --> 00:21:29,875
So how do you get to me it's
599
00:21:29,875 --> 00:21:32,115
kind of easy conceptually to imagine, okay, in
600
00:21:32,115 --> 00:21:33,789
some some way that with metal, you melt
601
00:21:33,789 --> 00:21:35,150
it down and then you work out what
602
00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:37,789
you know, there's various quite established processes for
603
00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:39,789
us to separate it out. How do you
604
00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:41,170
recycle something like
605
00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:43,070
graphite, or how do you recycle some of
606
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:45,070
the fluorinated compounds that you need to recycle,
607
00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:47,070
presumably because they they would otherwise get into
608
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:49,825
the environment to do bad things there. Right.
609
00:21:49,884 --> 00:21:51,904
Yeah. So with graphite, there's
610
00:21:52,365 --> 00:21:53,585
people working on it.
611
00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:56,205
The way that you process a battery can
612
00:21:56,205 --> 00:21:56,705
have
613
00:21:57,325 --> 00:21:59,085
I don't still wanna say good things happen
614
00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,164
to it, but maybe not bad things or
615
00:22:01,164 --> 00:22:02,765
bad things happen to it. Like, if you
616
00:22:02,765 --> 00:22:04,490
put graphite in in acid,
617
00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:06,230
a lot of times that makes it more
618
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:08,549
difficult to reuse in new batteries. The the
619
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:10,789
best way is to take the material and
620
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:12,089
reuse it in a new battery.
621
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,809
Fix it, basically, rinse it off,
622
00:22:15,589 --> 00:22:17,130
refurbish it, if you will.
623
00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:19,325
It's not that easy, though.
624
00:22:19,625 --> 00:22:22,045
There are processes that make that part easier,
625
00:22:22,505 --> 00:22:24,105
but you can also use graphite for a
626
00:22:24,105 --> 00:22:26,505
lot of different material sources. So and that's
627
00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:28,904
good. And recycling, you know, it's really important,
628
00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:30,525
I think, to to try and
629
00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:32,299
close that loop. If it's in a car,
630
00:22:32,299 --> 00:22:33,920
put it back in a car. But sometimes,
631
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,660
if you don't put it back into the
632
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,640
original application,
633
00:22:40,059 --> 00:22:43,515
you still are relieving it from sourcing somewhere
634
00:22:43,515 --> 00:22:45,434
else for another product. Right? So maybe it
635
00:22:45,434 --> 00:22:46,795
doesn't go into a battery. Maybe it goes
636
00:22:46,795 --> 00:22:49,535
into a reductant or something in our furnace.
637
00:22:49,994 --> 00:22:50,815
With the
638
00:22:51,115 --> 00:22:52,015
the fluorines,
639
00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:53,295
I think
640
00:22:53,835 --> 00:22:54,894
that's a real challenge
641
00:22:55,259 --> 00:22:56,940
with with how we deal with that is
642
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:58,799
they're in low quantities in a battery.
643
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:02,619
And pyro, actually, what happens is they're well,
644
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,920
they go up into the,
645
00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:06,720
exhaust, and they're captured and treated.
646
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:07,920
So,
647
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:09,519
so you collect them.
648
00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:10,904
In hydro,
649
00:23:11,684 --> 00:23:13,204
there's a lot of work that's going on
650
00:23:13,204 --> 00:23:15,384
now, especially with PFAS being a
651
00:23:15,684 --> 00:23:16,505
a big consideration.
652
00:23:17,204 --> 00:23:19,944
There's work to remove it. There's work to
653
00:23:20,164 --> 00:23:22,664
capture it when we're recycling it as well.
654
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,039
Why is it so important that we get
655
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:26,980
better at recycling batteries?
656
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,580
Yeah. Great question.
657
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:31,279
The the funny thing is on the other
658
00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,359
side of the lab, he's probably gonna be
659
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359
talking about all the great work that's going
660
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,400
into making the batteries
661
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,859
the new batteries
662
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,660
better.
663
00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:40,525
And when you make a new battery better,
664
00:23:40,525 --> 00:23:43,744
it usually means cutting cost and improving performance.
665
00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:46,384
When you cut costs specifically,
666
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:48,705
it makes recycling
667
00:23:49,164 --> 00:23:49,985
more difficult
668
00:23:50,605 --> 00:23:53,184
because we need money on the back end
669
00:23:53,325 --> 00:23:54,545
to fund those processes.
670
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:56,710
So if you take all the valuable metals
671
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,150
out there, you take out the cost of
672
00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:58,890
the materials,
673
00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:01,750
it makes recycling harder. So that's why we
674
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:03,289
need to be better at recycling.
675
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:05,930
And so it's important that we don't just
676
00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:07,184
work at this,
677
00:24:07,745 --> 00:24:08,644
find a solution,
678
00:24:09,265 --> 00:24:09,765
and
679
00:24:10,065 --> 00:24:12,625
call it good. We gotta continue to to
680
00:24:12,625 --> 00:24:14,705
improve because it's gonna be more difficult as
681
00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,565
we go down the road. Plus new chemistries,
682
00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:19,745
we always need to to work on what's
683
00:24:19,745 --> 00:24:22,144
what's coming down the road that we're gonna
684
00:24:22,144 --> 00:24:24,299
be seeing in our recycling plants.
685
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,680
What about the sort of supply chain aspect?
686
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,880
I mean, some of them some of these,
687
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000
materials, particularly the metals, high value metals, it's
688
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840
not just that it's expensive to develop and
689
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,440
it's there's a finite amount of them out
690
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,704
there, and they may not necessarily be in
691
00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:38,944
locations that are easy to get at. That's
692
00:24:38,944 --> 00:24:39,444
right.
693
00:24:39,744 --> 00:24:41,204
So, you know, The US
694
00:24:41,904 --> 00:24:42,404
is
695
00:24:42,704 --> 00:24:43,204
very
696
00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:46,544
low in quantities of these materials that go
697
00:24:46,544 --> 00:24:48,304
into the batteries. We get them from other
698
00:24:48,304 --> 00:24:50,890
countries, and it puts us at a security
699
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:51,390
risk.
700
00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:52,430
So
701
00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,529
recycling is important from that perspective because we
702
00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:56,990
want to get these materials,
703
00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:59,610
buy them once from another country, get them
704
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,130
here and keep them here and recycle them
705
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,549
and keep them within our domestic boundaries.
706
00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,794
Another reason to recycle is
707
00:25:06,414 --> 00:25:06,914
because
708
00:25:07,454 --> 00:25:09,375
in some predictions, if we don't change our
709
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:11,615
chemistries, we're gonna actually run out of the
710
00:25:11,615 --> 00:25:14,035
materials, not have enough to meet our projections.
711
00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:17,190
Cobalt, specifically, is really difficult. So we have
712
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:19,109
to recycle those materials to make sure that
713
00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:20,169
we have them available
714
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:22,549
instead of just mining them, using them, and
715
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:23,529
throwing them off.
716
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:27,109
What are the main challenges facing a center
717
00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:28,649
like this in trying to develop
718
00:25:29,025 --> 00:25:30,965
better ways of recycled batteries?
719
00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,605
I see. I think
720
00:25:34,224 --> 00:25:36,305
there's two answers that I wanna I wanna
721
00:25:36,305 --> 00:25:39,025
give to that. One is our objective is
722
00:25:39,025 --> 00:25:40,164
to help industry.
723
00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:42,559
We want industry to succeed.
724
00:25:43,099 --> 00:25:45,259
And so there's a lot of good challenges
725
00:25:45,259 --> 00:25:46,140
out there that are,
726
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:48,160
that we're excited to tackle.
727
00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,200
And so we do work with industry.
728
00:25:51,579 --> 00:25:54,619
We work together collaboratively with them to address
729
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:55,440
these challenges.
730
00:25:57,065 --> 00:25:58,924
The other aspect of that is
731
00:25:59,384 --> 00:26:01,484
and this gets back into the direct recycling.
732
00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:03,484
We'll do
733
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:04,765
some more
734
00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:06,204
far out research.
735
00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:08,904
We'll look at some of the more challenging
736
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:11,940
stuff that industry maybe doesn't wanna spend the
737
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:12,680
money on.
738
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:16,440
And so we'll look at things like, originally,
739
00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,839
direct recycling was a very
740
00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,339
not well known. It was a not unknown,
741
00:26:22,339 --> 00:26:25,204
but not well known method of recycling batteries.
742
00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:26,785
That's you you have a battery and you
743
00:26:26,785 --> 00:26:28,505
make another battery with it. A little bit
744
00:26:28,625 --> 00:26:30,464
to be more specific on that, I guess,
745
00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:31,365
I would say
746
00:26:31,904 --> 00:26:34,384
direct recycling is to take it could be
747
00:26:34,384 --> 00:26:36,704
any material, but we focus on the cathode
748
00:26:36,704 --> 00:26:37,444
of the battery.
749
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:39,440
So we take the cathode,
750
00:26:40,059 --> 00:26:41,980
and instead of putting in an acid and
751
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,119
dissolving the metal
752
00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:45,900
into metal ions or putting it in a
753
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,380
furnace and melting it down into a a
754
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,759
reduced metal alloy,
755
00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,160
we keep it as a cathode.
756
00:26:53,054 --> 00:26:54,974
We fix it while it's still a cathode.
757
00:26:54,974 --> 00:26:57,554
It's never changing its cathode structure,
758
00:26:58,414 --> 00:27:00,654
and we're making new cathode out of it
759
00:27:00,654 --> 00:27:02,174
so it can go into a new battery.
760
00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:03,875
And the reason that's so important
761
00:27:04,494 --> 00:27:05,234
is because
762
00:27:05,774 --> 00:27:08,680
to make cathode, which is the most expensive
763
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,660
part of a battery,
764
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,440
it has two portions. There's the materials that
765
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,860
go into it, and then there's the processing,
766
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,700
the manufacturing cost of it.
767
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,080
When you dissolve in an acid or melt
768
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,299
it in a in a furnace,
769
00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:22,404
you have to take those materials
770
00:27:23,025 --> 00:27:25,265
and remanufacture that into a cathode, and that
771
00:27:25,265 --> 00:27:27,345
can be a substantial amount of the money
772
00:27:27,345 --> 00:27:28,244
to make cathode.
773
00:27:28,865 --> 00:27:31,265
So if you don't do that, the value
774
00:27:31,265 --> 00:27:32,005
is basically,
775
00:27:32,509 --> 00:27:33,570
in in some cases,
776
00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,950
half of the cost of a battery may
777
00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:38,529
be from raw materials. Sometimes 10%
778
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:41,470
is just is the raw materials, and 90%
779
00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,570
is the processing cost. And so
780
00:27:44,269 --> 00:27:46,610
huge opportunity for cost gains,
781
00:27:47,414 --> 00:27:49,115
improve economy and environmental,
782
00:27:49,735 --> 00:27:50,235
impacts.
783
00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:52,634
The the website mentions
784
00:27:53,015 --> 00:27:56,315
that Resell is working to advance recycling technologies
785
00:27:56,375 --> 00:27:59,174
for current and future battery chemistries. Mhmm. What
786
00:27:59,174 --> 00:27:59,914
is Resell?
787
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,099
Good question.
788
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,900
So resell is is a federally funded program
789
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:10,119
that is a a collaboration of four national
790
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,619
laboratories,
791
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,779
Argonne National Laboratory,
792
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,619
Oak Ridge National Laboratory,
793
00:28:15,315 --> 00:28:17,414
the National Renewable Energy Laboratory,
794
00:28:17,714 --> 00:28:19,255
and Idaho National Laboratory.
795
00:28:19,714 --> 00:28:21,634
We also have some universities that are doing
796
00:28:21,634 --> 00:28:23,875
work with us. But they have these four
797
00:28:23,875 --> 00:28:24,774
focus areas,
798
00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:25,974
direct recycling,
799
00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:27,894
advanced resource recovery,
800
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:31,529
design for sustainability, and modeling and analysis.
801
00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,470
And all of these focus areas are used
802
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,390
in order to reach the ultimate goal of
803
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:38,169
lowering the cost of new batteries.
804
00:28:39,109 --> 00:28:41,204
The whole thing has to come down to
805
00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:42,585
or comes down to
806
00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:43,544
decarbonizing
807
00:28:44,484 --> 00:28:45,144
our planet.
808
00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:46,265
And,
809
00:28:46,804 --> 00:28:49,285
to do that, batteries do a great job
810
00:28:49,285 --> 00:28:50,964
at it. And we wanna get more people
811
00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:53,125
driving EVs and using them in the grid
812
00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:54,964
and and all these applications. To do that,
813
00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,059
we need to lower the cost, And recycling
814
00:28:57,059 --> 00:28:59,159
is a huge opportunity to do that.
815
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,159
I'm really interested about this and future chemistries.
816
00:29:03,619 --> 00:29:05,380
What are those chemistries, and how much is
817
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:05,880
recyclability
818
00:29:06,259 --> 00:29:08,980
taken into account when people are developing new
819
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,359
battery types? Yeah.
820
00:29:10,795 --> 00:29:12,714
Great question. You you do ask all the
821
00:29:12,714 --> 00:29:13,455
good questions.
822
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:14,494
So
823
00:29:15,195 --> 00:29:17,695
we spend some time looking at
824
00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:18,815
new chemistries.
825
00:29:19,515 --> 00:29:21,295
We don't spend too much time because
826
00:29:21,755 --> 00:29:23,099
as you probably know,
827
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,579
some people may not. But, like, you'll see
828
00:29:25,579 --> 00:29:26,400
in the news,
829
00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:30,299
some group found the solution to the batteries,
830
00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:32,220
and it's gonna last a million years and
831
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:33,740
all that stuff. But you see it all
832
00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:35,444
over the place, and that may be at
833
00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:36,984
milligram quantity,
834
00:29:38,244 --> 00:29:38,744
scales
835
00:29:39,605 --> 00:29:40,005
or,
836
00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,125
you know, maybe not feasible at in large
837
00:29:43,125 --> 00:29:43,625
quantity.
838
00:29:44,005 --> 00:29:46,664
So we take advantage of in a vehicle,
839
00:29:47,524 --> 00:29:49,764
a vehicle last fifteen years. So if it's
840
00:29:49,764 --> 00:29:50,664
not in production,
841
00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:53,860
we we know we don't need to worry
842
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,620
about it too much. But we wanna make
843
00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:57,240
sure that we're looking at chemistries
844
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,340
that are starting to take shape that are
845
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,100
gonna end up on a vehicle or in
846
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:02,759
some application.
847
00:30:03,505 --> 00:30:05,585
And we wanna make sure that it's not
848
00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,365
going to cause a big problem
849
00:30:08,144 --> 00:30:10,865
because you can contaminate a big stream if
850
00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,065
you have a little bit of something in
851
00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:13,505
it. So if they're using a little bit
852
00:30:13,505 --> 00:30:15,284
of something in it, we wanna
853
00:30:15,919 --> 00:30:18,419
recommend that they don't go with that chemistry.
854
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,779
So we have four focus areas in resell.
855
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,339
There is direct recycling.
856
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,460
There is, advanced resource recovery.
857
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,140
That's our second one. Advanced resource recovery is
858
00:30:31,815 --> 00:30:34,134
the, recovery of materials that we can't directly
859
00:30:34,134 --> 00:30:34,634
recycle.
860
00:30:35,494 --> 00:30:37,674
Then there is modeling and analysis
861
00:30:38,454 --> 00:30:38,954
and
862
00:30:39,335 --> 00:30:40,554
design for sustainability.
863
00:30:40,855 --> 00:30:43,274
And design for sustainability is what I wanna
864
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:43,835
mention.
865
00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:48,390
We want to make our batteries, use materials,
866
00:30:48,769 --> 00:30:50,150
use assembly methods
867
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:52,930
in a way we wanna make them better.
868
00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:55,170
We wanna design better ways, better materials to
869
00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,430
put into our batteries so that the recycling
870
00:30:58,054 --> 00:31:00,634
can be handled more easily, more cost effectively.
871
00:31:01,414 --> 00:31:04,134
And that's probably the most challenging focus area
872
00:31:04,134 --> 00:31:05,595
that we have is
873
00:31:05,974 --> 00:31:08,154
trying to change what's working today
874
00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:10,794
so that it's easier to recycle tomorrow.
875
00:31:12,259 --> 00:31:14,599
It's it's just when things aren't broken,
876
00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:16,440
don't fix them kinda
877
00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:18,500
just challenging. But those are the things that
878
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,899
we're doing, we're very aware of. And you
879
00:31:20,899 --> 00:31:22,659
think about anything when you look around a
880
00:31:22,659 --> 00:31:25,700
room, what's designed for recycling? What's designed for
881
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:26,200
sustainability?
882
00:31:27,355 --> 00:31:29,674
There are some, like, our water bottles got
883
00:31:29,674 --> 00:31:32,015
thinner plastics. Right? So that's good.
884
00:31:32,394 --> 00:31:34,954
And I think that's always a consideration. But
885
00:31:34,954 --> 00:31:36,714
what, you know, what big changes can we
886
00:31:36,714 --> 00:31:38,714
make that are really gonna catapult us into
887
00:31:38,714 --> 00:31:40,335
the next generation of design?
888
00:31:40,714 --> 00:31:42,095
I think that's really cool.
889
00:31:42,679 --> 00:31:44,059
Final question then. You know?
890
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,519
What's what's the dream here? Where's where's the
891
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,759
field headache? Give me your your sort of
892
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:50,919
vision for a future of battery cycle. How
893
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:52,359
how would it work in your sort of
894
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:53,339
ideal system?
895
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:54,539
Oh,
896
00:31:54,875 --> 00:31:56,494
how much time do you have?
897
00:31:56,875 --> 00:31:58,875
No. I think the real quick answer or
898
00:31:58,875 --> 00:32:00,575
the quickest answer is
899
00:32:01,035 --> 00:32:03,535
it's circular. We get to that circular
900
00:32:04,154 --> 00:32:06,634
economy that that people like to say. So
901
00:32:06,634 --> 00:32:08,414
we buy these materials once.
902
00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:09,769
And in the beginning,
903
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:12,170
you know, I'm not naive to think that
904
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,590
these batteries are gonna power our vehicles or
905
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:17,369
store the energy that powers our vehicles
906
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:20,390
forever. Right? There's this s curve. So we're
907
00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:21,910
just we're at the bottom of the s
908
00:32:21,910 --> 00:32:24,365
curve. But as we get more materials available
909
00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:26,125
for recycling, we can put them into the
910
00:32:26,125 --> 00:32:28,125
recycling that we have. And, eventually, there's that
911
00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:30,444
inflection point where we can put most of
912
00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:31,744
that material into
913
00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:32,625
recycling
914
00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:34,144
into new products,
915
00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:35,585
and we can actually
916
00:32:36,569 --> 00:32:39,470
require very little material to make our batteries.
917
00:32:39,609 --> 00:32:42,009
At some point, though, something's gonna replace lithium
918
00:32:42,009 --> 00:32:44,250
ion batteries just like we're replacing the internal
919
00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:45,549
combustion engine now.
920
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:47,069
And so
921
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:48,349
during the lifespan
922
00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:50,569
or the majority of the lifespan of these
923
00:32:50,569 --> 00:32:51,630
lithium ion batteries,
924
00:32:51,955 --> 00:32:53,475
I think, you know, towards the end, we
925
00:32:53,475 --> 00:32:55,575
wanna be able to have this complete circularity
926
00:32:56,195 --> 00:32:58,434
or near complete circularity so that we don't
927
00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:01,154
have this this security risk of relying on
928
00:33:01,154 --> 00:33:04,355
other other countries. We have cost. You know,
929
00:33:04,355 --> 00:33:06,695
if you have a a pile of dirt
930
00:33:07,369 --> 00:33:08,750
and a pile of batteries,
931
00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:10,730
you know, which one would you think would
932
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:12,890
be cheaper to get the raw materials to
933
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,769
make a battery from? Right? It's probably from
934
00:33:15,769 --> 00:33:16,269
batteries.
935
00:33:16,650 --> 00:33:18,730
Now we just happen to be processing dirt
936
00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:20,090
for so long. We're good at it, and
937
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,484
we're at scale, and we're not. Recycling batteries
938
00:33:22,484 --> 00:33:24,744
is very new. But, eventually, they're gonna equalize,
939
00:33:25,285 --> 00:33:27,045
and, and they're gonna be a great resource
940
00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:29,224
for those materials. So yeah.
941
00:33:29,924 --> 00:33:31,144
Thank you very much.
942
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,539
That was Jeffrey Spangenberger
943
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:43,099
of Argonne National Laboratory
944
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:44,460
in conversation
945
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,259
with Physics World's Margaret Harris.
946
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,304
Before that, Margaret spoke with Nadia Mason of
947
00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:52,924
the University of Chicago.
948
00:33:53,384 --> 00:33:55,785
Thanks to all three of them for coming
949
00:33:55,785 --> 00:33:56,765
on the podcast.
950
00:33:57,464 --> 00:34:00,184
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred
951
00:34:00,184 --> 00:34:00,684
Isles.
952
00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:03,720
On the May,
953
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,419
The Economist is hosting
954
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:06,299
commercializing
955
00:34:06,919 --> 00:34:07,900
quantum global
956
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,380
twenty twenty five in London.
957
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:11,420
Participants
958
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,059
will join global leaders from business,
959
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,739
science, and policy
960
00:34:16,194 --> 00:34:19,635
for two days of real world insights into
961
00:34:19,635 --> 00:34:20,775
quantum's future.
962
00:34:21,234 --> 00:34:25,174
In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,
963
00:34:25,635 --> 00:34:26,135
communications,
964
00:34:26,594 --> 00:34:27,335
and sensing.
965
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:29,655
And you'll discover how these technologies
966
00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:31,574
are shaping industries,
967
00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:34,590
economies, and global regulation.
968
00:34:35,369 --> 00:34:40,989
You can register for the event at events.economist.com.
969
00:34:41,289 --> 00:34:43,210
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
970
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:44,429
for this week's podcast.
971
00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:47,210
We'll be back again next week. See you
972
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:47,710
then.
