A Very Bitsy Hamptons Wedding with Julie Halston... (S5 E6 "I Love a Charade")

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everybody.
00:00:07
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Are You a Charlotte? Today, we have a fun guest. It's Julie Halston, who plays Bitsy Von Muffling, the incredible Bitsy. And this is the very first episode that she starts on way back in 2002. It's called I Love a Charade. And it first aired on September 8th, 2002, directed by Michael Engler, written by Michael Patrick King.
00:00:31
Speaker 1: And Cindy Shupak together, which is interesting.
00:00:35
Speaker 2: And this is when we go to Bitsy's wedding in the fake Hamptons.
00:00:41
Speaker 1: And it's a lot, a lot happened.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: So please enjoy my episode with Julie.
00:00:48
Speaker 3: Hi. Darling.
00:00:49
Speaker 2: How are you? I, well.
00:00:52
Speaker 3: Okay. In true Bitsy fashion, I'm actually in like 12 hours going to Europe for my honeymoon. What?
00:01:01
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Congratulations.
00:01:04
Speaker 3: I know. Like Bitsy, I was a widow. Right.
00:01:09
Speaker 2: I know.
00:01:10
Speaker 3: And after COVID, I met someone and we've been seeing each other for the last five years. And finally he said, will you marry me? And I said, yes.
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Speaker 2: That's adorable.
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Speaker 3: Yay.
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Speaker 2: And we're leaving to.
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Speaker 3: Go to Europe. I'm actually like in the middle of packing.
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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
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Speaker 3: We're going to Europe. We're going to go to London to see my niece's wedding. Then we're going to Belgium and Amsterdam.
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Speaker 2: Oh, amazing.
00:01:39
Speaker 1: Congratulations, Julie.
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Speaker 2: That's wonderful.
00:01:42
Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I love it.
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Speaker 3: I love it.
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Speaker 2: Thank you for making time to talk to us.
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Speaker 3: Oh no, I'm thrilled.
00:01:48
Speaker 2: Oh, good.
00:01:49
Speaker 3: And can I tell you, honey, I literally was just telling Cynthia because my beau, who's now my husband, he was like, oh, yeah, I saw a few episodes of Sex and the City. I said, what? A few episodes? No, you have to watch the whole series. So we have been watching literally the whole series. Wow. And can I tell you?
00:02:12
Speaker 2: Sure.
00:02:12
Speaker 3: And I said this to Cynthia. I said, Kristen Davis, best actress.
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Speaker 2: What are you doing to me, Julie?
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Speaker 3: No, no, no. I'm just going to lay it on the line. Laying it on the line.
00:02:26
Speaker 2: You're very sweet.
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Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I'm just being truthful. Cynthia agreed. She was unbelievable. And the more I watch and I'm like authentic.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
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Speaker 3: Yes, beautiful. Okay, beautiful. Authentic.
00:02:42
Speaker 1: Thank you.
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Speaker 3: Touching, moving. Thank you. The older I get, the more I actually relate.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the thing that I think is so adorable and one of the reasons that I wanted to do the podcast in general was that like looking back, you have a different lens to look at it through.
00:03:00
Speaker 1: It still holds up in so many ways.
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Speaker 2: I mean, every once in a while there'll be something weird, but mostly everything is so still completely valid and interesting to talk about. But I also feel part of the reason that I wanted to do it was because on... you know, social media, which we didn't have.
00:03:16
Speaker 1: Back then, right?
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Speaker 2: That's right. Just hearing the conversations about the characters and how women say, oh, now looking back, I think this and this and this, as opposed to when I first watched it, I thought this and this and this. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's super interesting. And definitely Charlotte has... benefited as a character from time.
00:03:39
Speaker 3: Exponentially. Thank you. And also, I mean, let's face it, it was so groundbreaking. And to hear women talking the way they did, so open about their sexual lives, so open about their feelings and whatnot, trying to balance everything, that still exists maybe more than ever now?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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Speaker 3: Maybe more than ever.
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Speaker 2: Definitely.
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Speaker 3: Definitely. And also with social media, I mean, even more so. And, you know, I mean, let's face it, a character like Samantha, you know, was, oh, wow, she's way out there, you know. But, I mean, I knew a few types like that.
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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely.
00:04:23
Speaker 3: We definitely did, particularly in the 90s.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
00:04:27
Speaker 3: And the smoking and all that and the cocktails. But what... What really is interesting is that Charlotte, she remained true to herself always. She knew what she really wanted. She knew what she was about. And boy, isn't that what everyone really wants is to be who they are?
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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely.
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Speaker 3: To know what they want. Definitely.
00:05:00
Speaker 2: It's hard to be like that. Like, that's not easy. You know what I'm saying? But I think at the time, and I mean, I'm not objective, obviously, right? And I do think there was a certain point in the success of the show where I tried to tune out as much as I could, you know, once we knew we were a success.
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Speaker 1: Like in the beginning, we were. We're so like, yes, we'll talk to anyone. We'll do anything. We're so worried that no one will watch the show.
00:05:24
Speaker 3: Right.
00:05:24
Speaker 2: And then after a while, when it was working, I was like, okay, I've got to ignore because the, you know, it got really amplified the conversation because.
00:05:33
Speaker 1: Culturally we were so different as a show, right?
00:05:36
Speaker 2: As you said. But then Charlotte was always considered to be kind of the boring one, you know?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, the prude, prudish.
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Speaker 2: The prude, remember all that? I mean, like 10 years, they were like, oh, she's the prude, she's the prude. So much so that when we went to our first Emmys... I had my, my manager was at a different firm than he is now. And I had my agents and I had my publicist and I didn't know what to wear and I didn't have a stylist, right? So I ran all around town, all around New York, all around LA, two towns. And I had a stack of Polaroids this big of all the dresses that all the different people wanted to put me in. And I really did not know what I should wear. And my team had this huge argument amongst themselves because all of the guys that basically, wanted me to wear this slightly crazy, I believe this was the time, this Michael Kors like strap dress that Mariah Carey ends up wearing.
00:06:29
Speaker 1: Do you remember this?
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah. I know that dress. I know that dress. I tried it on and it did not look good on me.
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Speaker 2: I wonder how many of us tried it on, right? Totally. But so all the guys, like my managers and whatever, were like, oh, you know, no one thinks you're sexy. You have to wear this, right? But then my publicist, we were at Wolf Castellar at the time, and Annette Wolf is this, you know, she's like lovely, you know, incredibly tasteful, right? So she was like, no, no, no, darling, no, no.
00:07:01
Speaker 1: You need to look like a princess, right?
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Speaker 2: So I had like ball skirt dresses. I had strap dresses. And I ended up kind of halfway in between in a Valentino that I truly loved, which was great. But like the idea that I would have to somehow go out in the press and prove that I was sexy was so irritating to me.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: Of course. Why?
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Speaker 2: Like, that is ridiculous. I'm on a show called Sex and the City. Like, get a grip, people. You know, now, sometimes I think back, because obviously the 90s were crazy time, right? And the 2000s truly still were slightly crazy.
00:07:40
Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And, you know, the girls were wearing the low cut G, you know, all this stuff, right? And we were being body shamed by every magazine there was. But I think back and I'm wondering, occasionally it goes through my head, like, what if I had been one of those people that I admire who are very like... Out there, like, this is me. I am brazen and sexy and strong. Like, would that have helped my career?
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Speaker 3: Right? I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I don't know because it's not who I am.
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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
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Speaker 2: But I do wonder. I don't.
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Speaker 3: First of all, I think you have to be who you are. Yeah. Second of all, you're a wild success.
00:08:19
Speaker 2: Yes, it all went fine.
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Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
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Speaker 1: Totally, totally, totally.
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Speaker 3: But here's the other thing, too. In theater, because I do a lot of theater, as you know. Yes, yes, yes. You can get away with a lot of things because it's not, the camera's not here.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: And I really do think, particularly with a phenomenon like sex in the city, you can't really lie.
00:08:41
Speaker 1: So true.
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Speaker 3: The camera is going to pick up who you really are on a certain level.
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Speaker 2: That's true, Julie.
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Speaker 3: On a sort of molecular level.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:08:51
Speaker 3: The camera picks it up. You're right. If you just raise an eyebrow or- Anything.
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Speaker 1: Micro, micro expressions.
00:09:00
Speaker 3: Exactly. And you know what's interesting? Because I've asked a lot of people about this because, well, because I'm old now, but over the years, over the years I've asked. And you know what? People, the public- picks up on it immediately.
00:09:16
Speaker 2: You're right. I think that's true.
00:09:18
Speaker 3: They pick up on it immediately.
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Speaker 1: Like if you're trying to be something that you're not.
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Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. If you try to be something that you're really uncomfortable with or you're not, the camera picks it up and the audience goes, I don't really believe her.
00:09:32
Speaker 1: You're so right.
00:09:33
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on here.
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Speaker 3: I mean, can we just talk about like, oh, I don't know. I'll just say MSNBC or CNN or NBC or whatever. When you watch those things, You know, reporters or, you know, anchor people or whatever. Don't you go like, oh, why is she doing that?
00:09:54
Speaker 1: Listen, I don't even watch them anymore.
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Speaker 3: You can't imagine. But it's interesting because. you know, there's some big story.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: And we're watching and you're like, wait, I don't believe them or I don't. it's so weird. The camera picks it up. I agree.
00:10:12
Speaker 2: No, I agree. I agree. You're right. And I think it is something that you kind of forget, right? Cause we're in front of the camera all the time and everyone just acts like, oh yeah, it's totally normal. But it is really like a extreme version of, you know, absolute like truth. You know what I'm saying? Like Like, and sometimes I do believe in sometimes for instance, like with Sarah Jessica playing Carrie, you know, Carrie was based on Candace and we all know Candace is pretty different from how Sarah Jessica molded Carrie. With her intelligence and her, you know, she wanted to shy away from some of the more, you know, swearing all the time and more brazen things that were originally in the script. And to me, what that created on camera was this kind of interesting friction of layering. You know, so she's playing this sex columnist who's super curious and thoughtful about everything.
00:11:10
Speaker 1: And she's out there.
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Speaker 2: It's not that she's not out there, but also there's a certain reticence in Sarah Jessica as a person, right?
00:11:16
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:11:17
Speaker 2: And I feel that that gives layers to it in an interesting way. Whereas if she'd just been like, you know, I don't know if we would have wanted to watch it for many, many, many years, you know?
00:11:28
Speaker 3: No, I don't think we would have. And the fact is, Now that we're watching because I want to make sure he knows everything. She makes a lot of mistakes in her life. Carrie. As we know. Yes. The girls make mistakes. Oh, yeah. But Carrie really makes a lot of mistakes. And then because she is always sort of like checking and, you know, wondering. Yeah. Questioning.
00:11:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:11:54
Speaker 3: And then that does add a layer. Yeah. And that is what people go through in relationships. I shouldn't have done that. I should have done this. Or, Hey, I thought this was what I was telling you, but you took it this way.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:12:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Totally.
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Speaker 3: And you know, Charlotte goes through it too. It's like, wait, like with poor Trey, you know, I thought I was helping. No. Okay.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: What was also weird too, Kristen is, seeing how many incredible guest stars there were.
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Speaker 2: Oh, I know!
00:12:30
Speaker 3: How many amazing actors were.
00:12:32
Speaker 2: On that show. I know, I know. Which actually, let's talk about you for a second. When you came on the show, what was your perception of the show before?
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Speaker 1: And how did you come, like, tell us the story.
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Speaker 3: Well, Michael Patrick King knew me because I was part of a theater company called That Charles Bush and I founded.
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Speaker 2: Of course.
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Speaker 3: And we were doing these wild shows on the Lower East Side. Vampire Lesbians of Sodom.
00:13:00
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
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Speaker 3: Psycho Beach Party. Yeah. You know, all these kind of wild things. And we were really quite the talk of the town for a while. Yeah. Yeah. in the 80s. That's how long ago.
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Speaker 2: Listen, baby, I'm old too. The 1880s at this point. Go ahead.
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Speaker 3: So you knew Michael. We were the kids. Yeah, we were the kids. We were the cool kids in town. Yeah. And Michael knew of us. And I used to run into Michael occasionally and he would say, oh, I'm going to get you on this show. I'm going to get you on this show. Now, when the first show, when the show first came on, I didn't have HBO and I would watch it over at friend's house who had HBO. And I have to admit, I was a little shocked. A lot of the nudity. And I was like, I mean, I loved it on a certain level, but I was also like, I really was shocked. And, but it was so cleverly written and the girls were, I mean, it's, it was candy, but it was adult candy.
00:14:05
Speaker 2: Good point. Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker 1: I like that description.
00:14:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. Adult candy. Yeah. So, um, then eventually I got HBO and I watched, um, But Michael kept saying, oh, yeah, we got ideas, Julie. We got ideas. And I was like, oh, really, Michael? Because I've auditioned quite a few times. Oh, you did?
00:14:23
Speaker 1: You auditioned for other characters?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, other characters. And I never got called. And I was just like, oh, do I have to go to the studio again and clean? What am I doing?
00:14:33
Speaker 2: Yep.
00:14:35
Speaker 3: And then I was in a show with Cynthia and And I was on Broadway in The Women.
00:14:42
Speaker 2: The Women, of course.
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Speaker 3: The Women.
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Speaker 2: With Kristen Josten.
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Speaker 3: Yes. Oh, it was amazing.
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Speaker 1: So amazing.
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Speaker 3: Mary Louie. Jennifer Tilly. Yes. Jennifer Tilly.
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Speaker 2: Yes, it was so good. Jennifer Coolidge.
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Speaker 3: Yes. It was a huge hit. And Isaac Mizrahi did our costumes. And anyway, it's all a family, you know. And Michael came backstage. And I was like, oh, hi, Michael. It's nice to see you, Michael. And he was like, oh, I'm going to talk to you. I am going to talk to you. I was like, okay, yeah. Well, they came up with Bitsy Von Muffling.
00:15:27
Speaker 2: Incredible. Worth the wait.
00:15:30
Speaker 3: Worth the wait. And then I hear that I'm marrying Nathan Lane.
00:15:35
Speaker 2: And what did you think?
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Speaker 3: And I was just like, Oh, no, no. This was because I knew a number of women kind of like this. I was like, oh, I get it. Oh, I loved it immediately. I was like, yes, I know these kind of women. Yeah. They're divorced. They are rich. They've married a few times. You know, eventually it becomes like my best friend.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 3: I think the shocker for a lot of people was not that they were getting married, was that they were really actually having satisfying sex.
00:16:14
Speaker 2: Shocking.
00:16:15
Speaker 3: And that she got pregnant. That was the shocker. But the actual relationship did not shock you.
00:16:21
Speaker 1: I forgot about that.
00:16:23
Speaker 2: That's coming.
00:16:24
Speaker 3: And I got pregnant. And Charlotte was horrified. Right. She actually says, Charlotte says, isn't that woman like 50 years old? How did she get pregnant?
00:16:33
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
00:16:34
Speaker 3: And I tell you about Dr.
00:16:38
Speaker 2: Now. Wow.
00:16:40
Speaker 3: And that's the acupuncture.
00:16:42
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I forgot about this. Incredible.
00:16:46
Speaker 3: Incredible.
00:16:46
Speaker 2: I love how.
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Speaker 1: Michael weaves you through.
00:16:48
Speaker 2: And then eventually also, and just like that, like you're such a great through line of a fascinating character.
00:16:55
Speaker 3: It really, I must say, I mean, literally I would take a bullet for everyone in sex in the city and particularly Michael, because he really just, he loved Bitsy and, He just kept bringing her back. And, you know, as you know, Michael does whatever's going on in your life, kind of gets things in there. Sometimes. And he knew that I was a widow, and he kind of wove that in. And that was such a lovely sequence with Carrie when I tell her about that. Oh, my gosh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:32
Speaker 2: So great.
00:17:33
Speaker 3: But, I mean, I Love a Charade was so much fun to shoot.
00:17:37
Speaker 2: Was it?
00:17:39
Speaker 3: Oh, it was so much fun to shoot.
00:17:40
Speaker 2: It was hot. And all night.
00:17:43
Speaker 1: That's what I remember.
00:17:44
Speaker 3: Oh, well, it was. It was hot.
00:17:48
Speaker 1: And weren't we in New Jersey?
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Speaker 3: I hung out a lot with Nathan.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: Oh, well, that's fun.
00:17:53
Speaker 3: And that's fun.
00:17:53
Speaker 1: Totally fun. Totally fun. Were we not in New Jersey somewhere?
00:17:59
Speaker 3: No, I think we were at the Westbury Gardens on Long Island.
00:18:03
Speaker 2: Okay, there you go.
00:18:04
Speaker 3: I stayed at the Garden City Hotel.
00:18:08
Speaker 2: That's right, Garden City. I thought Garden City was in New Jersey. It's not in New Jersey?
00:18:13
Speaker 3: No.
00:18:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't even know where we were. But Garden City does ring a bell. You know, they put you in the van and they drive you there. I never know where I am.
00:18:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it was on Long Island.
00:18:22
Speaker 2: Got it.
00:18:22
Speaker 3: You might be thinking of the Garden State Parkway, which is in New Jersey.
00:18:26
Speaker 2: That must have been what went wrong in my mind. That must have been it. I just remember that we were not in the Hamptons, but it does look very beautiful on film.
00:18:33
Speaker 1: They pulled it off.
00:18:35
Speaker 3: Totally. I mean, that magic of the lilacs and the butterfly. Yeah. All that.
00:18:42
Speaker 2: It's pretty.
00:18:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, really, really pretty. It's a beautiful episode. And I think that's when we realized too, okay, these girls have their judgment of this wedding and they have to get upended because he goes and tells Carrie, I love my, that girl is my girl.
00:19:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:04
Speaker 1: It's really sweet.
00:19:05
Speaker 2: I'd forgotten it.
00:19:05
Speaker 3: It's very sweet.
00:19:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really sweet and interesting. I had forgotten most of this episode because I think also this was the weird pregnancy season, right? So we're about to cut it short. This is the finale of the short season. And it was so stressful just worrying about her and hoping everything's going to be okay and trying to— make the show as beautiful and big. You know, Michael Patrick wants everything to be big and the finale always is so important to him, right? So to have Nathan show up at the beginning of the show, you know, basically playing at the Carlisle, though I don't really think we're at the Carlisle. You know, it's incredible. It's incredible.
00:19:47
Speaker 1: And I had fully forgotten about it.
00:19:48
Speaker 2: And I was like, kind of watching it with my jaw on the floor that we that we were able to get you guys pull it.
00:19:55
Speaker 1: Off and pull it off. Absolutely.
00:19:57
Speaker 2: It's incredible.
00:19:58
Speaker 1: It's so good.
00:19:59
Speaker 3: I remember, Kristen, too, that when we were in that Carlisle, wherever we were. I think we were actually in something called the Monkey Bar or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:10
Speaker 2: I think we were in the Monkey Bar. You were in the Monkey Bar. Yes, Julie. That's where we were.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: You're right. Yes. We were in the Monkey Bar. And you know who was sitting and watching Michael do this? Ken Burns. What? Ken Burns was, yes, he stopped by. Now, first of all, I don't know how this became, like, how did he know?
00:20:31
Speaker 2: I don't know.
00:20:32
Speaker 3: Wow. But he walked in and Michael stopped. And all of a sudden, everyone went, wait, Ken Burns.
00:20:40
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
00:20:41
Speaker 3: Oh, please don't let me interrupt you. I just wanted to sit and watch for a minute. Wow. What the heck?
00:20:48
Speaker 2: What the heck? We are going to have to get to the bottom of this.
00:20:50
Speaker 1: Because I don't remember this.
00:20:52
Speaker 3: Like what happened there? Wow. My Lover's Charade was also about Ken Burns watching, I believe.
00:20:57
Speaker 2: It was so crazy. I love it so much. So crazy. So when you originally came, so did you just think you were going to do the one episode?
00:21:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:21:10
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting? And so then they just call you later and they're like, hey, can you come back?
00:21:15
Speaker 1: And you were just like, yes, yes.
00:21:16
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:21:17
Speaker 2: It just went on like this for whatever, however many years?
00:21:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, for years.
00:21:21
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:21:22
Speaker 3: It was so great. And also what was also lovely, and a lot of times for TV shows, they don't honor this. I was always in a Broadway show. And usually my manager or agent would say, she needs a hard out. Yeah. She needs a hard out so she can be there at 7.30, whatever. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of times when you do a TV show, I've done a lot of guest spots where they go, oh.
00:21:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough.
00:21:51
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah. And, oh, and then suddenly I'm calling and my understudy is going to have to go on. Michael was always so respectful of that. Everyone was very respectful and they were like, hard out. Halston's got to go. We got to get this. Right. It was so dear and sweet and respectful and lovely. And so it was great. I mean, you know, and. I just love rewatching because I love seeing the introduction of all the characters.
00:22:20
Speaker 2: Me too.
00:22:21
Speaker 3: It's so great. And I had forgotten about the fact that you loved cats.
00:22:27
Speaker 2: I know. Me too. And that he makes fun of me. I had forgotten all of that. Like, what on earth? It makes perfect sense that Charlotte would love cats.
00:22:49
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:22:49
Speaker 1: Perfect sense.
00:22:51
Speaker 3: Yeah. Beautiful dancing. I know.
00:22:54
Speaker 2: And also, you know, she has a, like a childlike quality about her. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure she would love the fantasy and the romance of it all.
00:23:02
Speaker 3: Well, also that, and I love that too, that like Harry represented me in my divorce. Yeah.
00:23:11
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, yeah.
00:23:12
Speaker 3: I'd forgotten that. That's why he was invited. I know. That's crazy. That's crazy to me. It's super crazy.
00:23:18
Speaker 2: I forgot about that. Me too. Me too. I'd forgotten so many details about this transition between Trey and Harry. And I also, I've been told by my producers that when he tells me at your wedding and we're dancing that he has to marry a Jewish girl... I guess we're going to break up. I mean, what? I've got to continue watching. I don't know.
00:23:41
Speaker 1: Obviously it works out at the end.
00:23:42
Speaker 2: And I remember fighting with him and I know that I break up with him because then I see him at the Jewish mingler and we have that beautiful scene where he proposes. I remember that, but I have no idea how we get there. I don't know. It's fun to rewatch.
00:23:55
Speaker 3: Very fun to rewatch. Have you ever been in situations in your own life That Charlotte has ever been in?
00:24:03
Speaker 1: You're hysterical, Julie.
00:24:05
Speaker 3: No.
00:24:05
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know, I think that's the other hard thing for me is that I have been playing her for so long, right? And she is... You know, she's not me, which everyone who knows me knows, obviously. But we obviously share a lot of qualities, I guess. But our lives look very different, you know, in terms of the specifics, right? Like, I never wanted to get married, you know, and I never have been married, right?
00:24:32
Speaker 3: Right.
00:24:34
Speaker 1: I adopted a.
00:24:35
Speaker 2: Child and she adopted a child, but I didn't really put any, I didn't, you know, you're living your life, right? And you forget about your alter ego. Do you know what I mean? So my first daughter I adopted and her middle name is Rose. And I remember when Michael Patrick called me when he found out, he was like, I just love that you named her Rose.
00:24:56
Speaker 1: And I was like, what do you mean?
00:24:57
Speaker 2: And he was like, I just love it.
00:24:58
Speaker 1: It means so much to me.
00:24:59
Speaker 2: And I was like, what do you mean? I had forgotten that Charlotte's second child is Rose that then becomes Rock.
00:25:08
Speaker 1: Totally forgotten.
00:25:10
Speaker 2: Now, on some level, I'm sure, right? But not on a conscious level. So I was like, what are you talking about, Michael Patrick?
00:25:18
Speaker 1: He was like, you're hysterical.
00:25:21
Speaker 3: And I was like, I guess I am. Did you read the script?
00:25:24
Speaker 2: You just don't. It's like all stored in you, but I don't think about it or it's not there on the top.
00:25:32
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying?
00:25:33
Speaker 3: Right.
00:25:33
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:25:34
Speaker 3: Of course.
00:25:34
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll tell you what is there on the top is that I don't dress like Charlotte because I need to move quickly through my day. Yeah. So like I took my kids to Hawaii for my daughter's birthday and I took one dress for her birthday dinner. And we went to this nice hotel to go to Nobu.
00:25:52
Speaker 1: And I had to walk like really fast.
00:25:55
Speaker 2: And my daughter was like, mom, why is everyone looking at you?
00:25:58
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm wearing a dress.
00:26:00
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? It's very, it's just very, you know, I just look like a slob the rest of the time so that no one recognizes me.
00:26:07
Speaker 3: Well, and also I remember when you were, the kids were, you were in Brooklyn. Yeah. And you were always taking the kids out. To Prospect Park. Yeah. And it's like, you can't be walking around in five-inch heels. No.
00:26:22
Speaker 2: You're in the park. Totally. And it's so great, right? Because you're not in Central Park. Because if you're in Central Park, more people are going to recognize you than if you're in Prospect Park, which is like heaven.
00:26:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a great summer. That was such a great summer.
00:26:36
Speaker 2: I mean, that is the joy of the show, is that you get to experience so much more of New York. Because I used to live in New York in the 80s, right?
00:26:43
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:26:44
Speaker 2: But I was a poor waitress actress. Very different experience than working in New York. Oh, yeah.
00:26:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will tell you, I have been stopped on Flatbush Avenue.
00:26:55
Speaker 2: Wow, wow, wow, wow.
00:26:57
Speaker 1: That's funny.
00:26:58
Speaker 3: About four times. Interesting.
00:27:01
Speaker 2: Love it.
00:27:02
Speaker 3: Oh, and can I tell you this? Because I love to drop names. Sure. I did go to a restaurant with Jim Parsons and Katie Holmes.
00:27:11
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
00:27:12
Speaker 3: Okay, they're... globally famous human being.
00:27:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.
00:27:16
Speaker 3: And this, and of course she was an older woman and she kept walking back and forth, back and forth. And finally she came over to me and she said, I just love you on Sex and the City. I really relate to you. I think she called me Buffy. I was like, Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. And, and meanwhile, like Katie Holmes and Jim Parsons are like right here. And she's not looking at them. She doesn't. And I was like, okay. But what it showed to me, and of course, we sit down and Jim goes, well, I guess we know who's famous here. And I just laughed. I was like, okay, global famous icon. it shows the power of the show.
00:27:58
Speaker 2: For sure. For sure. For sure. And I also love, I love that people can connect in their own way to each character, right? Like I find that so fascinating, you know, like who, who sticks in whose memory is very amazing, you.
00:28:14
Speaker 1: Know, to mull over, you know what I mean? I love that.
00:28:17
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, I was trying to explain, yeah, to, to Robert, like when Aiden came on the scene, like, People were obsessed that Carrie and Aiden broke up. They were freaking out.
00:28:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, people were very infested.
00:28:34
Speaker 3: Very invested in that.
00:28:35
Speaker 2: It's true.
00:28:35
Speaker 1: Still very invested, though. Now, obviously, we have a lot.
00:28:39
Speaker 2: We've been doing different things for a long time, the movies and just like that. So there's Team Aiden still and Team Big still. And then there's people who just are critical of all of her.
00:28:50
Speaker 1: Choices, which I understand.
00:28:52
Speaker 2: Because as you pointed out, and I think it's important in this day and age to say that I think part of the success was that none of us were perfect.
00:29:00
Speaker 1: Carrie was our hero and she was imperfect. And that is beautiful.
00:29:04
Speaker 2: And it's one thing that I feel is missing in our current insanity of shows we have to choose from. Like you just don't you just don't see that that often, you know. I.
00:29:18
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, there's so many shows where everyone's evil.
00:29:21
Speaker 1: That's true too.
00:29:23
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:29:23
Speaker 3: That's another issue.
00:29:25
Speaker 1: But that's like a different thing, right?
00:29:27
Speaker 2: Like we need humans who just make mistakes, not evil people who kill people or whatever.
00:29:33
Speaker 1: Right. Like it's weird.
00:29:34
Speaker 2: It's a weird time in the TV.
00:29:36
Speaker 3: It's a very weird time. And then, you know, then there's also the black and white, but that's what was so great about the writing was that, you know, it's like that Stephen Sondheim song, people make mistakes, terrible mistakes. And they do. And the question is, do they ever own up to it? And that's what was so great about the ladies. Yeah. Because they would check in with each other. Yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker 2: And call each other on their stuff.
00:30:05
Speaker 3: Yeah. And call each other. Yeah.
00:30:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. Totally. All right. Let's recap a little bit here. All right. Just because I didn't say it at the top, we are watching this episode. I love a charade with the incredible Julie Halston. This aired on September 8th, 2002. That not funny. I know.
00:30:25
Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. Wow.
00:30:26
Speaker 2: So this is a wonderful episode because we are just kind of thrown in to a different direction. bit of New York social life in this episode. Like, it starts with Nathan Lane. He's not playing Nathan Lane, but he kind of is. He's singing at the piano at a place that looks like the Carlisle, but I guess is the Monkey Bar. And I love that you're just like, wow, what's happening? Like, that's how I felt at the top. Like, what's going on? And we all look really nice. Everybody looks really nice. Oh, beautiful.
00:30:59
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:30:59
Speaker 2: And Nathan is playing Bobby Fine, which is interesting because it's kind of like Bobby Short, you know, like there's so many interesting things going on. Bobby Short, for everyone who doesn't know, was this incredible musician who was always at the Carlisle, like a longstanding, very old New York, beautiful thing to do. So it's sophistication.
00:31:21
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:31:22
Speaker 2: Incredible talent. So it's a little bit playing on all these different things. So we're watching Nathan Lane playing Bobby Fine, playing the piano and singing and kind of repartee with the famous person in the room, Carrie Bradshaw, at which point you swoop in and he says he's getting married, but Wait, you say you're getting married, and we're all like, what? Yes, yes, yes.
00:31:48
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's pretty funny. Samantha says, how are you? And I say, I'm ecstatic.
00:31:52
Speaker 2: Because you know Samantha. Right, you know Samantha from a previous event. She'd done PR for you, like a charity event. Right, which I also love because she's a publicist, and she would be like knowing all the people like yourself. And you're just, you're not really explained. You just show up as like a rich, like society lady.
00:32:13
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:32:13
Speaker 2: Who's fun.
00:32:14
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she looks great. And she happens to know she walks in and she and he goes, Bitsy. And she's like, Bobby. And he introduces me. And of course, I know Samantha, but he introduces me. And she says she's getting married. And everyone says, oh, congratulations. Who? And he says, me. And, of course, Carrie bursts out laughing.
00:32:41
Speaker 2: Laughs so hard for so long. It's so awkward. It's really good. It's really awkward, but it's really funny. And she does it so well.
00:32:51
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:32:52
Speaker 2: She really does it so well.
00:32:53
Speaker 3: She really does. It's really enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
00:32:56
Speaker 2: It's really enjoyable to watch. And then we're all just kind of mortified, like, oh, my God. And then you guys walk away, and Charlotte says, like, but isn't he gay?
00:33:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:33:07
Speaker 2: You know, Charlotte thinks she's really confused. Like, have I missed something? You know what I mean? But it's all very entertaining. And then this is the engine of the episode is that we end up all going to your wedding from different ways. I love how Michael gets all the different important characters to the wedding in different ways, right?
00:33:27
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And at first, Carrie is like, yeah, he's as gay as they come. This wedding will never happen. Right. And then cut to everyone gets their invitation. Right. And it's happening. And it's like, okay, well, I knew Samantha. Harry handled my divorce. Carrie knows Bobby fine. And you're with Harry, of course. And then Miranda, how did she, I guess she comes as Carrie's.
00:34:01
Speaker 2: I think Terry, yeah, yeah. Because also we have this kind of ongoing theme, which I'd totally forgotten as well. Once Miranda has the baby, there's an episode called plus one is the loneliest number. Because for the book party where, you know, Miranda kind of accepts that Brady is now her plus one, which is adorable and funny. And so not our show, but we make it our show, which I love. And Samantha's like, the baby can't come, you know, but she's like, the baby has to come. And it's really cute. I'd forgotten all of that. And as a single mom, I completely relate. Like, you're just like, what do I do? But it's good that the girls find a way to incorporate it, you know, so the poor Miranda doesn't have to just stay home. Right.
00:34:43
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they're much more accepting. And as the time goes on, they're even more accepting.
00:34:49
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
00:34:50
Speaker 1: It's a process.
00:34:52
Speaker 3: Wonderful scene where you're actually watching the wedding and everyone's just like, are we going to talk about the pink elephant in the room? Remember when Miranda says that? Yep. And by the end of the service, they're like. It's beautiful. Yeah. It'll work. Totally.
00:35:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think it's a very interesting scene. like journey that everyone goes through where, you know, our preconceptions at the beginning are slowly eroded and it's beautiful at the end. The thing I'd forgotten about the writing was that we know Harry is not the picture of what Charlotte thought she would be ending up with, right? So there are these funny scenes, like when we're back in New York before we come to the wedding, and he says, well, of course I'm going, you know, to handle Busy's divorce. And Charlotte is so torn, like, does she want to be seen in public with him, which is... You know, kind of horribly embarrassing, but also I love that she just tells her friends this, that she could admit that, right? It's good. But then there's been the back hair situation. No, wait, the back hair situation is in this.
00:36:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's in this.
00:36:07
Speaker 4: Yes.
00:36:07
Speaker 2: Oh my God. So this was, I remember this, this was a drama and this kills me because, so first we make him get this insane back hair put on his back.
00:36:16
Speaker 1: Evan's coming. We're going to talk to him about it.
00:36:19
Speaker 2: I remember it.
00:36:19
Speaker 1: Being super stressful. They put so much hair.
00:36:23
Speaker 2: On his back oh my god it's long right then so i tell him like you have to get it waxed like just you know of course you would do that right and then he gets a wax and he has a horrible rash and it's like They can't just do a little rash. They make it horrible.
00:36:42
Speaker 3: Oh, no, it's horrible. It is.
00:36:44
Speaker 2: It's horrible.
00:36:45
Speaker 3: And that, you know what? I remember now that scene where we're all at that swimming pool.
00:36:51
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:36:52
Speaker 3: That was in New Jersey. Oh! The wedding was in Long Island, but that scene was in New Jersey.
00:36:58
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Julie.
00:36:59
Speaker 1: I'm not insane.
00:37:01
Speaker 2: That's good.
00:37:01
Speaker 1: Do you remember that Kyle was supposed to be there?
00:37:05
Speaker 3: Trey?
00:37:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:37:07
Speaker 1: Do you remember him?
00:37:08
Speaker 3: I don't remember that.
00:37:09
Speaker 1: There are so many of us there.
00:37:11
Speaker 2: And I need to ask Kyle about this because unless I have completely dreamt this up, which is very possible, but I'm pretty sure that this was supposed to be the last time that I would see Trey. Oh my God.
00:37:23
Speaker 1: Because he was part of society, right? He would be there.
00:37:27
Speaker 2: So he, I remember him in a pink shirt, like a pink polo shirt. Like he would walk across and we had this kind of sad moment where he sees me you know, with my new person. And I'm just like, Oh God. And then he left and it was like, kind of like a silent, like closure, you know, but I have to ask Kyle if, and then they cut it because I think it was weirdly not, first of all, I think we had too, too much, right. We had too much in the episode. And second of all, I think it didn't, it wasn't enough.
00:38:01
Speaker 1: Like we actually needed a scene.
00:38:02
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
00:38:03
Speaker 2: Like it was, it was too hard to do that in a kind of a across the pool look. But I remember that because I remember also Evan having to deal with this whole rash thing. I remember being really stressed at that party and not wanting to take my pants off, which I don't.
00:38:16
Speaker 1: I'm wearing white pants because I was like, please don't make me.
00:38:19
Speaker 2: Be with all these models in my bikini.
00:38:22
Speaker 3: Oh my God.
00:38:23
Speaker 1: I was really stressing because I remember.
00:38:25
Speaker 3: And then they show their boobs. Yes. Remember that whole thing?
00:38:28
Speaker 2: I had forgotten. I had forgotten. I know that there's a picture of Samantha holding the cantaloupes, but I didn't remember where or why. And I had fully forgotten that these young girls come because apparently Richard lets them hang out at the pool. And they're so rude to Samantha, which really bothered me. Like, why don't we, like... you know like shame them out of the house or whatever I don't know which maybe I shouldn't say that but I was like we need to have Samantha's back here because this is ick and then they take their tops off which is also bizarre and then she throws the cantaloupe at.
00:39:03
Speaker 1: Them and crashes the window oh my gosh I.
00:39:06
Speaker 3: Don't know how they dealt with that because they did actually rent that person's house yeah that And I think he was a very rich dentist. He was a very rich dentist in New Jersey. And the wedding was filmed on Long Island. This was filmed in New Jersey. So you weren't crazy.
00:39:29
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:39:30
Speaker 3: On the Jersey shore.
00:39:32
Speaker 2: Got it.
00:39:32
Speaker 1: So we did go to the Jersey shore.
00:39:34
Speaker 2: I thought we did. I thought we did, but I don't know what that place was called or whatever, but okay, good.
00:39:40
Speaker 1: So I did go to New Jersey for that part. Okay. That's interesting.
00:39:43
Speaker 2: So there were two different locations to try to pull off the Hamptons of it all.
00:39:47
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:39:48
Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting.
00:39:50
Speaker 2: I just remember it was hot and I was stressed and all those girls, it was, it was stressful.
00:39:58
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:39:58
Speaker 2: There were a lot of, right.
00:40:00
Speaker 1: It was a lot.
00:40:01
Speaker 3: It was a lot. And it was very hot. And, and, and yeah. And Sarah was, Pregnant. She was pregnant. I know.
00:40:13
Speaker 2: They pull it off, though. They pull it off really well in the episode because I think there are photographs. That live on on Instagram where she looks more pregnant than she did in the episode. Like the way they frame her totally works.
00:40:27
Speaker 1: Totally works.
00:40:28
Speaker 3: Beautiful.
00:40:28
Speaker 1: The other thing I had totally forgotten is.
00:40:30
Speaker 2: That she and and and Miranda stop at like a like a truck stop.
00:40:38
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah.
00:40:39
Speaker 1: On the side of the road. And Berger drives up on a motorcycle.
00:40:44
Speaker 2: What on earth? Oh, my gosh. And this is when we find out that he's broken up with a girlfriend that we found out about before. I had 100 percent forgotten about all this, probably because I'm not there, I guess.
00:40:58
Speaker 3: Right.
00:40:58
Speaker 2: But also Berger on that motorcycle is really funny and very funny.
00:41:03
Speaker 3: And so like you can't really he's not good on it.
00:41:06
Speaker 2: He's not.
00:41:07
Speaker 3: He's not good on it.
00:41:08
Speaker 4: He's not.
00:41:10
Speaker 3: And that's also when you realize, like, oh, she is so, well, he's very cute. Ron Livingston is adorable.
00:41:17
Speaker 2: He is.
00:41:17
Speaker 3: And he's really adorable in that scene. And you're like, oh, she's just so excited to see him. And then, of course, when they get together, like, later in the day.
00:41:30
Speaker 2: I guess. Well, because he shows up.
00:41:33
Speaker 1: So they have a little picnic. This is where the, wait.
00:41:37
Speaker 2: Maybe that's later when they sit under the tree with the butterflies. That's later. That's at the party. He shows up at the party as well, the daytime party. He shows up a lot, man.
00:41:48
Speaker 3: He shows up a lot.
00:41:50
Speaker 1: It's very interesting. And then he comes to the wedding also, which is a surprise.
00:41:55
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:41:56
Speaker 1: But this is my thing.
00:41:58
Speaker 2: I need to watch it in better order because I've been a bit out of order based on our guests, right?
00:42:03
Speaker 1: Because we had Kristen Johnston. I had to jump ahead. I had to jump back.
00:42:05
Speaker 3: Right.
00:42:06
Speaker 2: But the whole Berger development is super fascinating. And he is so fundamentally different than every other guy she's ever been with. That it's... shocking in a weird way. Like, the writing, the development of him, I feel like they worked so hard and they did it so well because it's so different.
00:42:33
Speaker 3: You know? Well, the thing I was thinking of, though, when I was re-watching, is that he's a writer.
00:42:40
Speaker 4: Yep.
00:42:42
Speaker 3: And even though he's not the successful writer that she is at this time in his life, he... Does mention that he has a Pulitzer. Right. Which is maybe for a journalistic thing. He also, according to Carrie, because she reads his book, he's a really good writer.
00:43:01
Speaker 2: Right.
00:43:02
Speaker 3: And she's certainly going to respect that.
00:43:05
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right.
00:43:06
Speaker 1: And they have their whole wordplay.
00:43:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:43:09
Speaker 2: Which is fun.
00:43:10
Speaker 3: It's fun and he's funny and he is self-deprecating and he's real cute. And I think he is kind of different than the guy she's... Well.
00:43:23
Speaker 2: First of all, has she ever had a self-deprecating guy? I think not. Like, you know what I mean?
00:43:29
Speaker 1: It's pretty fundamentally different. It's very interesting.
00:43:33
Speaker 2: I need to talk to one of the writers about the kind of beginning of Berger and what they were going for or what they were basing him on. Because I feel like it's something interesting, you know?
00:43:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Because... Aiden and Big are so sort of epic and established. And, you know, I think for I mean, I remember the women that I would watch with and they were like, oh, well, Aiden is so cute. Plus, he makes furniture and he's handy. Well, you know, that's that's a list for most women. He's going to fix my lighting and my plumbing, and I'm going to get a beautiful table out of this. But he's real cute, too.
00:44:20
Speaker 2: He is really cute.
00:44:21
Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, indeed. Really cute.
00:44:23
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:44:23
Speaker 3: So I totally got that. But I also got the burger thing. The writer... You know, when you're a writer, you're going to be, you're interested in other writers.
00:44:37
Speaker 2: I agree. I agree totally. Yeah. But it's a different, it's like they're intellectually connecting, which is obviously so different than how she was with Big and Aiden, both where it's like regular chemistry. But the theme of this show is also the Zaza Zoo, which is so hysterical to me. I was like, wow, how many times in one episode can we say Zaza Zoo?
00:44:58
Speaker 1: It's very amazing.
00:44:59
Speaker 3: Yeah. You can say it a lot. Apparently you can say it a lot. Zaza Jew.
00:45:05
Speaker 2: Ah, yes, I know. There it is.
00:45:07
Speaker 3: There it is. There it is.
00:45:08
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Michael Patrick is having some fun. He is having.
00:45:12
Speaker 2: A good time. But the whole thing about, oh, I also love this one moment. So I don't exactly understand. Carrie and Miranda and Stanford, do they stay at Stanford's house? I think they stay at Stanford's house.
00:45:27
Speaker 3: They do.
00:45:28
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:45:28
Speaker 3: And they're having breakfast. Yes. And they're talking about the jam and the tea.
00:45:34
Speaker 2: And it's amazing.
00:45:36
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's all that.
00:45:38
Speaker 2: It's lovely. And the adorable Marcus is there. The boyfriend is there. And I love the moment when Carrie looks up at Stanford and says, you did it all.
00:45:47
Speaker 1: You did it.
00:45:49
Speaker 2: Like, this is what you created and you have this beautiful boyfriend and none of the rest of us do.
00:45:55
Speaker 1: It's so sweet.
00:45:57
Speaker 3: It's very sweet. And I think we're so happy for, for, you know, Stanford and, and, and because here are the girls, you know, every week it's like, we can't do this. We can't, this isn't working. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's always saying like, I couldn't get this guy. I, you know, blah, blah. Yeah.
00:46:18
Speaker 2: For years.
00:46:19
Speaker 3: For years. Yeah. You know, I could never do that. I could never do that. And then all of a sudden. It works. It works. And I also love, and this was a really, I just loved this moment. When all the girls, I walk away with Bob be fine. And they're like, what the heck is going on here? And Marcus says, maybe he.
00:46:41
Speaker 2: Just makes her laugh. I know, it's so great.
00:46:44
Speaker 3: It's so sweet. So great. And Marcus, you know, who, you know, one minute he's, you know, this, oh, he's got the abs and he's gorgeous and all that. He's also like, he has mother wit. Yes. Yes. He has mother wit. He has common sense.
00:47:00
Speaker 1: He does. And also he just cuts to the truth.
00:47:03
Speaker 2: He cuts to the truth. Like we had Sean on last week or something. He's an incredible person. And he talked about how hard it was to just have a few lines, which we all have been there, right? Like you have to stay super, super present the whole time. Because they might cut you or whatever. Like, you have to be part of the scene. And then you just have a few things. But the few things that he has that he does get to say are incredible. And they have to let him. And he hits them.
00:47:32
Speaker 3: And he did.
00:47:32
Speaker 2: He does it. He does it so beautifully. And it just makes you feel like he's such a great person for Willie. Like, it's so, like, with very, very few, it's not like they have big scenes, right? But you just get that he's amazing.
00:47:48
Speaker 3: Right.
00:47:49
Speaker 2: It's so, so good. It's so good. It made me so happy to see it. I love it so much.
00:47:53
Speaker 3: And he's got to do it in 10 seconds.
00:47:55
Speaker 1: 10 seconds.
00:47:56
Speaker 2: And also he's up there just looking so good. And putting up with so much, like when Nathan is like touching his abs and stuff, I was like, Oh Lord. That must have been a little stressful.
00:48:09
Speaker 3: It must have been a little weird. Yeah, I agree.
00:48:12
Speaker 2: But he puts up with it very, very sweetly. I mean, there's so much that happens for Carrie in this one, too.
00:48:19
Speaker 1: Like, I love the scene.
00:48:20
Speaker 2: I was confused when she sits down with Berger with the butterflies, which is in the front row.
00:48:28
Speaker 1: Of the Samantha party, right?
00:48:29
Speaker 2: Like they go out front to have a talk and he's talking about his breakup a little bit. And then she kind of has like a monologue about her breakup, I guess.
00:48:39
Speaker 1: Did you feel like she.
00:48:40
Speaker 2: Went too far? Cause I didn't, I was like, what is his problem?
00:48:45
Speaker 3: I actually thought, well, I do think Berger had his own issues. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think, you know, he definitely was like, over sensitive to it. But I did also think she, you know what it was? I don't think she was giving too much information, but the way it's been played, she's getting more and more sort of anxious about it. And she's raising her voice more and she's talking faster. And she's like, I mean, what, you know, we supposed to do? And I think that is what he's responding to. Not what she's saying, but her anxiety about it. And I think that's why he's like, well, uh, I got to go. I know.
00:49:36
Speaker 1: Which is the worst feeling.
00:49:37
Speaker 2: I hate that.
00:49:37
Speaker 3: It's the worst feeling. The worst. And he is already an anxious guy. And now he's watching her anxiety.
00:49:45
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good point.
00:49:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.
00:49:47
Speaker 3: I think that that's like, wow, I can't. I'm already, you know, Lauren and I have our own issues, whatever. But she shows her anxiety. And I think that's why he's suddenly out of there.
00:50:01
Speaker 2: I just feel with burger though, like for me watching this whole thing now kind of with, I mean, obviously we know how it ends.
00:50:09
Speaker 3: Right. But.
00:50:10
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of red flags. And this is one of them.
00:50:13
Speaker 3: There are.
00:50:13
Speaker 1: There really are.
00:50:14
Speaker 2: And for her, it's hard because I feel like she's trying to do something different, right? Like she's had the big thing. It's been forever. She's had the Aiden thing twice, you know, broke up with him, hurt him, blah, blah, blah, blah. I feel like she's trying something different, which we can all relate to, right? Like you're trying something different than what the last couple things were. And I do feel like it's this meeting of the minds, right? But also she has the Zaza Zoo, she says, right? I don't know for sure, but she says she does, so I'll believe her.
00:50:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure either.
00:50:44
Speaker 1: I'm not sure either.
00:50:45
Speaker 2: But she, for me, he, you know, it's like he keeps showing up, but then it's like he's not 100% there. Do you know what I mean?
00:50:55
Speaker 3: I totally agree. And that already is a red flag. And, you know... He says he loves her, but then, like, going into the Prada store, he's already uncomfortable.
00:51:09
Speaker 2: So many things make him uncomfortable. Yes.
00:51:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:51:13
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:51:13
Speaker 3: So many things, you know, make him uncomfortable.
00:51:16
Speaker 2: But she's just like, I'm.
00:51:17
Speaker 1: Going to make it work, you know?
00:51:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:51:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:51:20
Speaker 1: It's hard to watch a little bit.
00:51:22
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And then, like, you know, she says, well, I shouldn't have shown him the check I just got or whatever. Right. And I think intellectually... He says, you know, no, you've earned it. You should be proud of that. But you know that he is really messed up about the fact that his book didn't sell.
00:51:42
Speaker 2: Yes, it's hard. And I do feel for him, but I also feel like this is terrible timing, right? To have her going up, her career going up and his career going down.
00:51:53
Speaker 1: That's really, really rough. That's really, really rough.
00:51:56
Speaker 2: But also she cannot be made to feel bad about her success. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, it's really, really fascinating writing, but watching it, you are just like, Oh God, you know, like I feel a little panicky when I watch it.
00:52:16
Speaker 3: I agree. And I, you can, I, I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.
00:52:21
Speaker 2: 100%. And that's the other thing I want to ask the writers about, because I don't know what the original plan was, right? Because we were supposed to do a long season five, right? Or like the regular, whatever it was, 18 or something back in the day. But then we didn't because of the pregnancies.
00:52:35
Speaker 3: Right.
00:52:36
Speaker 2: But then so so he continues. But I don't know what the I want to hear from them what happened in the writer's room about Berger, you know, because it's interesting. It's definitely interesting. OK, let's talk about Charlotte and Harry for a second, because, oh, my goodness. First of all, Evan is just so good. You know, he's so good. And he's also so different. Like the energy that he brings whenever he's on camera is so good and strong and different than all the other guys.
00:53:05
Speaker 3: And real. Real.
00:53:06
Speaker 2: So real. So grounded.
00:53:09
Speaker 3: So grounded. And he really, I mean... He made that character. Again, it's like the camera doesn't lie. The minute he walks in, the energy changes.
00:53:20
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:53:21
Speaker 3: And he's so real. And, you know, let's face it. He's a lawyer. He's not a dum-dum. No. And, yes, he might not be polished the way those other guys are or whatever. But let's face it. He's quite smart.
00:53:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:37
Speaker 3: He knows what he's doing.
00:53:38
Speaker 2: Definitely.
00:53:39
Speaker 3: And he... Is totally gobsmacked by Charlotte, who wouldn't be. And... I don't know. You know, he makes... He makes him real and funny.
00:53:52
Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
00:53:54
Speaker 3: And he's kind of uncouth.
00:53:57
Speaker 1: Right, but he's so confident within that.
00:54:00
Speaker 3: So confident in it.
00:54:00
Speaker 2: That's what's amazing and interesting, you know?
00:54:03
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:54:03
Speaker 2: There's no apologies. You know what I'm saying?
00:54:06
Speaker 1: He's so, like, just he is.
00:54:08
Speaker 2: He just is.
00:54:09
Speaker 1: Like, no wonder. I'm drawn to him. Thank the Lord, right?
00:54:13
Speaker 2: Like that I can let go of my preconceived notions. And isn't this how life is so many times, right? Like you have to go with what's really there. And that's growth for Charlotte. You know, Charlotte needs to grow.
00:54:26
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And, you know, I love, though, too, when he mentions that his mother is dead. It's great for Charlotte. Oh, yeah.
00:54:35
Speaker 2: Whoo! Oh my gosh, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:54:41
Speaker 3: But he's so different than what you had in mind. But what, I mean, again, what's so great about Charlotte, and I, in a way, I hope everyone can be like a Charlotte, which is that she's like, huh, this is not what I thought. But I, and it's the best sex she's ever had. And because, you know, he's a generous lover.
00:55:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, he lets her push him around and whatever. It's adorable. He lets her push him around.
00:55:09
Speaker 3: It's so cute. Right. And yet he always has a comeback, you know? Yes. And again, though, he's successful. He's not a schlub, really. Right, right. No. You don't get to be that lawyer unless you're smart and you're doing well.
00:55:27
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I think it's also and I think this is something that I can't wait to talk to Evan about because I know we talked to Molly a little bit about how hard it was to dress him because they were getting notes about how he had to have a wide tie and a bad suit and all this. But then he would say, but I'm this high-level divorce attorney. Why would it be that bad?
00:55:48
Speaker 3: Right?
00:55:48
Speaker 1: So it had to be a kind of a middle ground bad.
00:55:51
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying?
00:55:52
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:55:53
Speaker 1: Because he's your divorce attorney.
00:55:55
Speaker 4: Well, yeah.
00:55:56
Speaker 3: He wouldn't show up.
00:55:58
Speaker 2: No, looking like a used car salesman or whatever.
00:56:01
Speaker 1: No offense to used car salesman.
00:56:03
Speaker 3: Right, right.
00:56:03
Speaker 5: No, no.
00:56:04
Speaker 3: Agreed. I mean, he wouldn't be living in 1980. Right. You know what I mean? No, you're absolutely right.
00:56:10
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. But I remember that was a struggle. And I remember poor Evan had to go through a lot. Because also on our show, we don't have any other guys like this, right? Right.
00:56:19
Speaker 1: You know, he's like one of a kind, but he wanted to be wearing the nice suits.
00:56:23
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? It was a struggle. It was a struggle. But that's what's so incredible about him, about the writing and also just the way Evan plays it. You know, like it's very hard, like. Thank goodness. I just keep thinking to myself, thank goodness Charlotte can let go of the things and go there because he's so magnetic. You know, like when I remember him on the dance floor and I remember them telling him different things about how he's supposed to get me out there. And I remember him, sometimes Evan would just go like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then he'd do what he wanted, right?
00:56:57
Speaker 3: Do what he wanted, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:58
Speaker 2: We sometimes do. Do that. And it's so charming. You know, he's so charming about it all.
00:57:06
Speaker 1: It's so good.
00:57:07
Speaker 2: I know. But then, and I don't remember what happens next, obviously. But like, so at the end when he goes, I tell him I'm falling in love with him, which is kind of surprising to me.
00:57:17
Speaker 1: I was like, wow. And then he says, me too or whatever.
00:57:21
Speaker 2: But then he goes, well, but where's this going? Because I have to marry a Jewish girl. And Charlotte's just like, huh? But I don't know if it totally lands on her how serious that is.
00:57:33
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see what happens next.
00:57:34
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
00:57:35
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when she says, Bitsy can marry a gay guy, but I can't marry you. But you know what I loved too, and I was thinking about this just recently. Harry, they do a lot of closeups of Harry's eyes on you.
00:57:52
Speaker 2: And they're incredible, right?
00:57:54
Speaker 3: And they're incredible. Yes. And there's a lot of the way they shoot.
00:57:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. You're right.
00:58:01
Speaker 3: It's the eyes.
00:58:02
Speaker 2: He's so good because he's so good.
00:58:06
Speaker 1: Evan is so good.
00:58:09
Speaker 3: It's very interesting.
00:58:11
Speaker 2: Right.
00:58:12
Speaker 1: And I had also forgotten all of this.
00:58:13
Speaker 3: Right.
00:58:13
Speaker 1: Cause I'm in like a, I'm in like a stressy, you.
00:58:16
Speaker 2: Know, like the shows that hit at this point and we can't talk at a restaurant.
00:58:21
Speaker 1: They put whatever it is in the post. Like it's a stressy time.
00:58:24
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like we had code names for everything, you know, and everyone, you know what I mean? And I remember Evan coming into that, and I remember thinking, oh, thank God he's such a good actor.
00:58:35
Speaker 1: That was my main thought, right? Like, thank God Evan is a good actor, and he's super solid.
00:58:40
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have to worry about him at all in any way. You know what I mean? In terms of he's prepared, he can handle it, he can handle the stress, he can handle all the things. You know, he's walking into this kind of crazy circus, right? And I remember just thinking, oh, thank God. But when I watch it back... And they do. They push in on his face. And it's excellent.
00:59:03
Speaker 3: Yes. It's very, very breathtaking. It is.
00:59:08
Speaker 4: It is.
00:59:10
Speaker 3: You realize, and he, you know, he'll say to her things where he'll be like, you know, I know what I'm talking about. You know, he gets that confidence. Yeah. And his eyes are on you. Yeah. And you really feel those eyes on us, too. Yeah.
00:59:25
Speaker 1: Like, how could Charlotte not fall for that?
00:59:27
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying? Exactly.
00:59:29
Speaker 2: Like, it's good.
00:59:30
Speaker 1: It's very good.
00:59:31
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so fun to watch it because I don't have a ton of memories about it. And I'm glad it worked.
00:59:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:59:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:59:39
Speaker 3: No, it works beautifully.
00:59:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. Let's talk about Samantha and these poor, she's in a situation, man. First of all, she's so funny when she calls Richard and just leaves this very long message.
01:00:00
Speaker 3: Oh, yes. That made me laugh. Oh, yes, about the house.
01:00:02
Speaker 2: Yes, about how she deserves the house for a weekend, you know, and that he's not invited. It's really funny. I had forgotten this. I love it.
01:00:10
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Of course, she doesn't know that these young girls are going to come with the house. So that's a bummer.
01:00:16
Speaker 2: And I do think he needs to be, like, hurt as a result of this situation. Right. The whole time I'm like, poor Samantha. She needs to be defended against these 20 somethings with the boobs because they're not very polite. Oh, they're horrible.
01:00:30
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, they're just dreadful girls. And, you know, and then they the ultimate thing is when Samantha says, you know, and I would never have these breasts like. And they were like, well, maybe you should have. And then maybe you'd still be with Richard. Awful.
01:00:49
Speaker 2: Oh. I know.
01:00:49
Speaker 1: We need to hurt them. We need to hurt them.
01:00:53
Speaker 2: I know. Where are we? We're all distracted by our own things. I feel like we need to defend them like when that girl took my baby name in season one.
01:01:00
Speaker 1: And she defends me. We need to go defend her. But we're not there.
01:01:03
Speaker 2: We're out. We're out. We're out in the pool. But I love the way she looks. I think she looks so great. And that's, of course, the best revenge ever anyway.
01:01:11
Speaker 4: Right.
01:01:11
Speaker 1: She looks so great. And that like poochy ask. I don't know if it's poochy or not, but like it's so good. So, so good.
01:01:17
Speaker 3: Beautiful.
01:01:17
Speaker 2: But yeah, that Richard boo, boo, boo. Oh, then we have just this.
01:01:22
Speaker 3: Well, look, they got the house. Yes.
01:01:24
Speaker 1: Yes, totally.
01:01:25
Speaker 2: And, you know, she's not... I don't think she's ultimately bothered. You know what I mean?
01:01:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
01:01:31
Speaker 2: So, yes, Miranda does tag along to the Hamptons with Carrie with her... Oh, because she... Oh, she has sex with Steve. Oh, yes. I was also wondering, because I've been out of order... How, because I was like, okay, so they have the baby together, but then she's like, I'm not, I'm not in love with you. I'm not in love with you. I'm not in a relationship. We're just going to co-parent. But then of course he's adorable Steve, right? Over time, you know, and like her guard starts to drop, starts to drop. And it was so beautiful how they end up having sex together again.
01:02:05
Speaker 1: Like I did not remember this. It was good.
01:02:08
Speaker 2: It was really good.
01:02:09
Speaker 3: And then she's just, she's, it's beautiful. She's exhausted. She comes home. He's taking care of Brady.
01:02:17
Speaker 1: Which is very attractive.
01:02:20
Speaker 3: Exactly. A real nurturer and caregiver. And then she's like, oh, my God, I slept with the ex.
01:02:31
Speaker 2: I know.
01:02:31
Speaker 1: The ex who she has a baby with.
01:02:34
Speaker 4: Yeah I mean come on I know I know so she runs away she runs away that's why she comes to the wedding she has to run she has to flee the situation.
01:02:44
Speaker 2: Which I love because Michael loves to have a proper series finale right meaning season season finale I should say yeah so I remember there being a lot of stress every year towards the end about what What we would do, how big it would be, how to give every character a decent storyline and a wrap up kind of a thing. You know, he's very old school in that way. And I love this because there's also a cliffhanger, like what will happen?
01:03:12
Speaker 1: What will happen? What will happen later?
01:03:14
Speaker 2: With Harry and Charlotte, what will happen with Miranda and Steve, what will happen with burger and Carrie and poor Samantha doesn't totally have a, so much of a, of a thing because we haven't met Smith, Jared yet, but he's coming. He's coming. He's coming, which is great.
01:03:31
Speaker 3: But also I do think, and I'm maybe you can tell me, was that episode nominated for an Emmy?
01:03:42
Speaker 1: I have no idea, Julie.
01:03:43
Speaker 3: I think it was.
01:03:45
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember what Michael Patrick won for writing-wise. Because didn't he win for writing or directing?
01:03:54
Speaker 3: I don't know.
01:03:54
Speaker 1: I need to get on that, okay? Because I don't know. But, I mean, the nice.
01:03:58
Speaker 2: Thing was that the show was nominated.
01:04:04
Speaker 1: Definitely, I believe, for the season. No, for the season before. I don't know, Julie.
01:04:12
Speaker 2: This is my problem. At this point in life, the whole thing just blends into just a lot of amazing stuff, but then also stress that goes with the amazing stuff.
01:04:22
Speaker 3: Oh, of course. Because it went from zero to a hundred.
01:04:27
Speaker 1: Totally.
01:04:27
Speaker 2: Totally.
01:04:28
Speaker 3: Which is wonderful. And everyone involved was suddenly like, boom, like shot out of a cannon.
01:04:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like that.
01:04:34
Speaker 2: I mean, luckily we had the beginning to really form ourselves, you know, as a unit, I felt like before being shot out of a cannon, but then it was like, once you're up there, it's so much extra stuff, right?
01:04:49
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
01:04:49
Speaker 2: Like you're here, you're there, you're going to this photo shoot, you're going to this award show. It's wonderful, but it's also like your head is just spinning.
01:04:57
Speaker 1: At least mine was, my head was spinning.
01:04:59
Speaker 3: Yeah. Don't, don't try to sleep. No, I know.
01:05:02
Speaker 2: The sleeping goes out the window, man.
01:05:05
Speaker 1: I mean, big time, big time. And then you're like, I've got to look good.
01:05:09
Speaker 3: Oh, no.
01:05:09
Speaker 1: How am I going to do it?
01:05:10
Speaker 2: Like we'd have tea bags on our eyes back in the day, you know, before they have all the contraptions now.
01:05:15
Speaker 3: Right.
01:05:15
Speaker 2: Right.
01:05:17
Speaker 3: Cucumbers.
01:05:18
Speaker 2: Cucumbers. Very old school.
01:05:20
Speaker 3: I remember putting cucumbers on my eyes.
01:05:22
Speaker 2: Totally.
01:05:23
Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah.
01:05:24
Speaker 2: Well, this has been so much fun, Julie.
01:05:26
Speaker 3: Oh, honey. It's it's I'm telling you, I mean. I don't know how you feel watching yourself, but I loved, love, love, love watching you do Charlotte. Thank you. She's so moving and so great. Thank you. And I said to Cynthia, and Cynthia said, you know, you got to tell her that. She said, I feel the same.
01:05:49
Speaker 1: That's so sweet.
01:05:50
Speaker 3: You're such a good actress.
01:05:52
Speaker 2: Thank you.
01:05:52
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I do.
01:05:56
Speaker 2: One of the joys of the podcast has been that I am okay watching myself now. It's really been good because I used to be so... If you're watching something immediately after you did it, you're still kind of in it, right?
01:06:09
Speaker 3: Yes.
01:06:09
Speaker 2: And you're thinking like, oh no, I wish they used the other take or so many things are going through your head, right?
01:06:15
Speaker 1: Or, oh, I wish I'd done that better or whatever it is. When you have 28 years.
01:06:19
Speaker 2: Like between you're like, you know, I can see all of the positives every.
01:06:26
Speaker 1: Once in a while.
01:06:26
Speaker 2: I will have a question or a like, what was I doing there? Or did I really think that through? Or did I realize this or that? You know, but it's really minor. And I think the other thing that I love is just the like, overall, I just think everyone is so good.
01:06:43
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of amazing, you know, like the.
01:06:46
Speaker 2: Guest stars, like everybody, like yourself, obviously, but I mean, like everyone is so good. And I just think about what it takes to make that happen. I mean, obviously casting is a huge part of it, but also creating an environment on the set where, and tell me how.
01:07:02
Speaker 1: You feel about this.
01:07:03
Speaker 2: What I feel was that a, You know, the expectations were high, meaning from Michael Patrick and or anyone who was directing.
01:07:12
Speaker 3: Right.
01:07:13
Speaker 2: So and sometimes that creates pressure, but in a good way, like you show up like a game, you know, like you're not no one's walking through it.
01:07:24
Speaker 3: No.
01:07:24
Speaker 1: Did you feel that way?
01:07:26
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. And the writing is smart. Everyone. But the fact that that show all through the years. Kept the same crew.
01:07:38
Speaker 2: Yeah.
01:07:39
Speaker 3: That makes a big difference.
01:07:41
Speaker 2: It's true.
01:07:42
Speaker 3: Huge difference.
01:07:43
Speaker 1: Our crew was amazing.
01:07:46
Speaker 3: They knew the assignment.
01:07:48
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.
01:07:50
Speaker 3: And when you have that, it really does. I mean, it sounds so, you know, Pollyanna, but it is the family.
01:07:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
01:08:00
Speaker 3: But it also comes, you know, Sarah is a classy lady. Yes, yes. Very classy lady. So you have this classy lady. You have Michael Patrick, smart as a whip. You have the same crew. You have these great writers, great women writers. And you have this wonderful cast and this wonderful casting agent and costumes, lights, production values. In a sense, it couldn't fail. I mean, it could fail.
01:08:35
Speaker 2: It could, absolutely. It could, but it didn't. It's true. It's true. We had what was created, what we created and what HBO allowed us to create was really special. Like, it was different than the other shows in New York, certainly, and really than the other shows in general, right? Like, it was a different animal, which was incredible.
01:08:56
Speaker 3: And it loved New York.
01:08:58
Speaker 2: I know.
01:08:58
Speaker 1: New York was the best. it still is of course question for you yes.
01:09:03
Speaker 2: Julie are you a Charlotte you.
01:09:07
Speaker 5: Know what what in a lot of ways I am more than anyone would ever expect of me I love it I am much more of a Charlotte than a lot of people would ever. Cause you know, I think a lot of people identify me as a bitsy and there is a certain type of that.
01:09:27
Speaker 3: I am a little like that. I'm a pretty flighty girl in many ways.
01:09:32
Speaker 2: I wouldn't describe you as flighty. Well, actually, I think you're very sweet and you're very caretaking.
01:09:39
Speaker 3: I am actually, but I'm, I'm a, I can be a lot. Let's put it that way. I can be a lot.
01:09:45
Speaker 1: Listen, not on our set.
01:09:48
Speaker 2: You fit right in. You're just perfect.
01:09:51
Speaker 3: Bless you. No, I'm a lot more Charlotte than I ever realized.
01:09:55
Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. I mean, you can be anything. I have no judgment. But I do also think that you're like secretly a Charlotte. I love it. I love it. I love it. I'm so happy for you. Have a wonderful, wonderful honeymoon.
01:10:11
Speaker 3: Thank you, sweetie.
01:10:12
Speaker 2: I love you.
01:10:13
Speaker 3: Love you. Love you.
01:10:14
Speaker 1: Have a great time. Okay.
01:10:15
Speaker 3: Bye, Julie. Bye.