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[upbeat music] Love the sound effects every time. Feels so good. Hi there. My name is Andrea Miller. I am the host of Open Relationships: Transforming Together.
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I am joined by my co-host, Joanna Schroeder, and our amazing producer, Brian Adkins. We have an amazing guest for you today, Sabrina Lloyd.
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But before I give her incredible introduction, I just wanna give a huge reminder why we are doing this show. And as the name implies, we are here to transform together, and I say this with sincerity and gravity.
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To transform by ourselves, it's impossible. It is impossible. We transform in relationship. And as somebody who reads a lot of self-help books and goes to seminars and watches the videos and all that stuff...
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I do, I promise you I do. That's all in a lab if you ask me.
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Where it really counts in the real world, where we really transform is in our relationships, where we are in relation with one another and having to deal with unexpected outcomes and the hurt and the heartache and all that stuff.
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And so we are bringing you this show because we know that's how we transform in our lives.
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So with no further ado, I'm excited to introduce Sabrina Lloyd, an entrepreneur who founded the Lloyd Agency, the leading insurance agency for the transportation industry.
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Her book, Stand Alone: How to Be an Extraordinary Leader, is a bestseller with Post Hill Press and is based on the principles of her success.
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She weaves her leadership advice into a compelling narrative punctuated by gripping personal anecdotes and experiences. Sabrina also runs the Stand Alone podcast and has a large Instagram following.
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Sabrina, you are a warrior, a ninja, and a sage all rolled into one. [laughs] You have experienced profound hardship and you have risen like a phoenix. I'm like, "Ooh, baby." I'm loving this lady.
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[audience cheering] Thank you for being on our show. [laughs] I'm gonna have to use that. I'm gonna go to my team today- Hit it... and say, "I'm a warrior-" Yeah, it's all you girl.
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Warrior, ninja, and sage all rolled into one. Right. [laughs] So, uh, so you open your book in a way that I didn't expect. You open your book talking about the scared little girl you once were.
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You refer to the violence and trauma you grew up with that shaped you. Will you elaborate on what happened and how from all that heartache you emerged to be this strong entrepreneur, leader, and mother? Yeah.
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So I was raised by two perfect parents for me, but it wasn't, uh, at that time. It was the most imperfect situation you could ever imagine. And the reason why I open up the book that way, um, I actually...
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It took me a while to like address all the things that I went through to actually start to realize why I am the way I am. Because until we do that, we can't really transform.
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Um, we have to revisit our past and see why we do things so we can go from almost like you're looking at yourself from an outside view so you can actually help yourself.
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[laughs] Um, and so when I started to do this, I started to understand, um, you know, going back and going through my childhood, it was really, it was really tough.
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You know, my father was a very, very strict individual and, uh, we were raised very tough, so he had three girls.
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But when you go through my book you'll realize that when my parents first immigrated to Canada, uh, from South America, they lost their first daughter at the age of two when she was just two years old.
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And so what that did to my father was it put him in this ultra protective state, and I didn't realize that until I had my children.
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And we went through a lot of things and I had to start looking at, you know, how I was raised and what it did to me. And I'm, I feel very blessed and feel very fortunate for everything because it made me who I am.
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And one of the greatest things I ever heard was that if you had the parents you wanted you wouldn't be the person that you are.
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And so just me understanding that and coming full circle, um, and dealing with that, it helped me get through it so I never ever subscribe to a victim mentality. I am not a fan of it when people talk like that.
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You know, I, I, I don't, I don't subscribe to that and I don't share my story with you to make people feel bad for me.
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It's actually something I'm very grateful for because just like every child, we're born innocent into this world.
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And when we see hard things happen, um, when we see abuse, when we see neglect, when we deal with all these things, um, we, we have to process it in the way our young brain understands it.
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And for a lot of us if we don't go and revisit that from a more mature brain, a more, you know, heightened sense, uh,
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well, what happens is you, you tend to act like a child [laughs] for a very long time 'cause you didn't really- Yeah... process, deal with what you had to deal with.
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And you know what's so funny about what we're dealt with in life? I, I was just reading a, a really great book on poker players and, you know, the cards that they're dealt with only determine- Yeah...
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if they win for 12%. You know? What actually matters is how they play the game. So I think that- Oh, baby. I love that. Yep. Yeah. I think that's how we have to look at it.
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So I share my story because, yes, my father was very strict and we've had some very deep conversations and, and then also we've had some times where I'm like, "I don't really wanna talk about this with you [laughs] because I am good."
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Yeah. "We're good." Um, and so-I, I'm, I'm still working on stuff. I, I don't think anyone should ever say, like, "I'm perfectly healed," but I do feel whole. Mm-hmm. I don't feel like- Oh, yeah...
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there's massive voids in my life where I'm, like, hurting and I need to fill it with some unhealthy things, but I think we can always strive to get better, and so that's why I share that story because no parent is perfect.
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And, you know, it was really hard for me to share that stuff with people 'cause I don't ever wanna be disrespectful or dishonorable to my parents. Mm-hmm.
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I have two amazing parents, and I have the greatest relationship with them right now.
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Um, but at the same time, we are human beings and we make errors, and sometimes I do things with my small children that I stand back and say, "I can't believe I just said that. I can't believe I just did that."
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[laughs] Well, we'd love to talk about that on, on this show. Tell us. Tell us how bad it is. [laughs] I... Well, I, I wanna ask Sabrina a question 'cause she brought up something we talk about a lot, Andrea- Yeah...
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and our team talks about a lot- Mm-hmm... which is victim mentality. And I think sometimes- Mm-hmm... that, that term is used in all sorts of ways.
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Like, for some people, I think it's a way to push away that trauma and that hurt. Like, they are like, "No, I'm not gonna be a victim," but then they're not dealing with their junk, you know what I mean? Sure. Yeah.
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So, like, we know that y- you know, I think all three of us can, can say that our childhoods weren't perfect, and again, thank goodness they weren't or we wouldn't be who we were, right? Mm-hmm. So, there is...
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It feels like, to me, there is a part of that healing process where you almost have to be in that, like, "Oh, everything was wrong, everything was messed up.
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I was a victim of this circumstance or of this person," in order to get to that point where you're, like, pushed to take the reins back. Does that make sense?
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Like, where do you find that definition to be really helpful and, like, do you think that it might be, that feeling like the victim might be part of that process?
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Yeah, so I have a science brain where I'm able to look at things, you know, from a bird's-eye view, but then also process-driven.
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So I, I think when people get stuck in that stage of, you know, like, "Everything is bad, and everything doesn't happen good for me," and then they, they take the past and they bring it into the present, they carry it into the future.
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And I... What we have to do is we have to understand, like, everything can follow a process, and just because it was that way doesn't mean it always has to be that way.
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But we do have to visit it, and we have to visit it. If you can learn this great art of just stepping outside of yourself, and then looking- Oh...
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at it from not, like, someone did wrong to me, and then taking it personally, and then getting bitter, 'cause that's what happens. Yeah. Yeah.
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When you're able to look at it and say, like, "Okay, well, if this was my friend and she was telling me a story," um, I would say to my friend, I would say, "You know, that's not right.
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Um, ha- what happened to you isn't good, so how are you gonna make things better?" Like, what- Mm-hmm... we, we, we can agree that that's not right, and we want to agree.
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We wanna see that because we don't wanna do that to our children. Right. And we wanna get better.
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Um, and so just being able to observe it from a different viewpoint, I think is really important instead of from the viewpoint of a victim, like, "Poor me. Why did this happen?"
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Like, there's, you know, and then internalizing it.
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And I think that's where bitterness, uh, you know, starts to grow, and then we start to damage future relationships because we feel like we're owed something or it's not right.
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And we start to tell ourselves some wild stories, and if we can- [laughs]... change those stories, then we can have- Mm-hmm... a different life. Yeah, and it's like there's, there's a, like, imagination on both sides.
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Like, you're pretending every... Pretending everything was perfect is not good, and pretending everything was horrible is also not good. It's like you've...
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It's like the process seems to be, like, recognizing where the victimhood exists in order to push past it, forgive, move on, and get out of that bitterness. Yeah, definitely.
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And then when you get to this place also where, and this is not easy, and, and so I don't say this lightly, and I think we hear this all the time.
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But this is, like, the, the thing that you should be aiming for, and I think we should have something to aim for. If you can get to this place where you are grateful that that happened. Mm-hmm.
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Uh, and, and for a lot of people, listen, worse things have happened to people, so I'm not saying... You know, I'm, I'm just speaking from my vantage point. It was horrible,
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especially for a little girl, you know, to go through what I went through, but now I'm so grateful because it put something inside of me that I would not have. Mm-hmm. And I see this, like, in the business world.
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I don't get intimidated by anyone. I literally will stare you down and make you afraid of me. Like, I do not back down. Mm-hmm. I, I don't. I don't have that in me, and I would never, ever have that- Mm-hmm...
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if I didn't go through what I went through. And so I love it. I, I'm grateful.
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[laughs] I mean, it's a, it's a superpower, and I, I actually, um, uh, carved out a bunch, or carved out, you know, just wrote down so many of these amazing comments from your book that get to that.
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So we'll, we'll come back to some of them because I just, I have to read them because they're so good.
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Um, but what do you say, what do you say to those people in your life that say, you know, either, "Well, what I experienced was different," the, you know, something, you know, and they're just, they insist on blame, right?
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They insist on blaming their parents or somebody else that did something bad to them, their spouse. They insist on some kind of aggressor, um, that did something, and they,
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they won't move on, or they insist they can't move on. What do you say to people like that?Yeah, so I've worked with, you know, hundreds, I wanna say thousands. I just stopped counting- [laughs]...
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'cause there's so many people I've worked with through- Uh-huh... you know, 18 years of being in business. Yeah.
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And what I've come to realize is that when you try to help or convince someone who doesn't wanna be convinced or who doesn't wanna be helped, you are doing yourself a disservice, and you need to understand that until that person is coming to terms with, "I want to change, I want to get better, I don't wanna be a victim," because if they, if they love that space, um, the thing that can jolt them out of it, this is the truth, is shock.
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Mm-hmm. Mm. And d- do you wanna do that to someone in this litigious world? I don't know if [laughs] I wanna be that person. I could- Not with a camera on. You know, I don't- Yeah, not in the age of social media.
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[laughs] Yeah. I totally, I, I feel bad for people today because what it actually takes, and this is why I say, like, the call of courage in leadership today has never been stronger.
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Because a lot of people are not doing what is required to help people- Mm-hmm... because they're so afraid of how it's gonna be received.
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And, you know, the other thing I say, even though I say people have to want to be changed, I said, "I say this because you should be a living example of someone who has transformed- Totally...
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so you can inspire other people to say like, 'Well, look what happened to her. And she overcame that, so then that could be true for me.'"
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And then when they come and they start to listen with different ears, like, there is that possibility for that transformation to happen, I think that's the call of leadership, for people to be an example, to lead by example.
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So you're not demanding that from others, but you can command it because that's who you are as a person. Oh, my God, sister, you got it. I think that you are a sage, a ninja, a warrior all wrapped into one.
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[laughs] Oh, well, thank you. Uh, and I say that, no, I say that, like, with all sincerity because I've certainly experienced in my journey so much doubt, so much grief, so much heartache.
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And, you know, I feel like I've crossed a number of Rubicons, but I feel like it's because I've done so much hard work, and I've, I've had to be courageous to achieve my full potential, that now I have that to give.
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So it, it feels really good for me to hear that from you. And, and you're right, I feel like we're in a, in a time where words are scary and, you know, and there's a lot of...
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And, and yes, there are cases where words are damaging, but it, it feels like we are in a time in our society where to, um, to speak your mind with conviction can also, um, get you in trouble.
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And, you know, I feel like it can be hard as a leader to do the right thing 'cause that can be weaponized against you. Yeah.
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And what you have to do is you have to know yourself and know that your intentions were pure, so when people do come at you, you, you know, like, that was, that- Yeah... I did that out of helping, not hurting.
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And that's, that's the line that you have to be- Yeah... as a parent, as a leader, where, like, what is the reason that you're doing this? Are you doing this to, like, 'cause it's fun? That's not okay.
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[laughs] Or are you doing- Yeah... this because, no, I'm gonna drive a result to happen here, and I'm gonna be leading with conviction and courage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because as a leader, I'm responsible for influencing.
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I'm not responsible for... You know, if I'm gonna be your leader, I have to influence you. You're not here- Mm-hmm... to influence me. And, and then i- as you get better, you can help to influence someone else.
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And that's, that's- Yeah... something we're getting really, really ha confused because when you blur authority, it's a very slippery slope, and that's what's happening.
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People don't- What do you, what do you mean by that? Well, what's happening is you, you're in this environment where everyone's like, "We're all equal. We're all the same." No, we're not. Right.
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Uh, so while that sounds good, and that's, like, an ideal, um, we, we have differences. And when you come in under the tutelage of someone else, they, y- you have to surrender to them- Mm...
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to allow them to lead you and to build you and to grow you, and that happens with trust. That happens with you having regard and respect for them so that you can surrender to them, and they can help you grow.
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And then when you do that properly, you're able to do that for others, and that's what builds a good culture of people lifting people up instead of we're all the same, and we're all...
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If we're all the same, then we're all flat. Don't you wanna strive for something to go up to? I, I, I agree. I mean, I think in a lot... I mean, let's face it. In a business, there is a hierarchy, right? Yeah.
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And so no, no question, and people bring different value based on their experiences and resources. So I, I would agree s- you know, uh, on, on the plane of humanity, okay, fine. [laughs] We're all equal.
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We're all human beings. But in the plane of business or in the, the field of business, but I think I'm gonna push back pretty hard on this idea of it's somebody else's job to surrender to the authority.
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Isn't it the authority's job to be trustworthy, to be compelling, to be followable? Yeah, to earn that. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
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'Cause I feel like otherwise you've gotta have this, like, patriarchy that male-dominated led so much of the world for so long.
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It feels like there's been this wonderful renaissance in more, more, um, emotionally intel- intelligent leadership. So it's not through command and force.
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It's through I'm following you because you're compelling, not just because I need a paycheck. Right. But it's just like what we talked about before.
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Like, a leader has to have that trust and has to create that environment- Right... where there can be trust, but then- Right... the person who is following has to be coachable. Yeah. They have to want to learn.
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They have to want...
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So you know, the, the word surrender might sound too, like, scary for some people, but-When we say, like, you have to be coachable, it's because if you come into a relationship, because that's all it is. Mm-hmm.
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A relationship is both people having to want to work together. Mm-hmm, yeah. And if you have a great leader, but you don't have a great student, you're still not gonna get a good outcome. You need both of those people.
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I think we're... Yeah, and we're kind of talking about respect when it comes down to it.
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It's like if you, if I come into Your Tango, and I did eight years ago, if I came into this workplace and I assumed I knew as much as my direct supervisor, whose name is also Sabrina, or Andrea. Yeah.
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And it was like, they're like, "Here's, here's what we've tested, here's what works.
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Please follow these instructions," I, I do those things 'cause I respect the fact that they've been here longer than me and they have this experience.
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However, part of the reason I respect them is because if I said, "I wonder if this way that we've always done it, I wonder if we should try this other way.
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Here's why I think that," I respect them because they also would be respectful enough of me to not be like, "Listen, we're not gonna have this conversation. I'm the boss." Like, they let me give that- Yeah...
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feedback and respect me in that position, but I also don't assume that I know as much as them, if that makes sense. It's a mutual respect where... But you do have to earn that. You have to earn that respect.
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If someone seems like a foolish leader, the people who follow them are not going to be loyal. Well, they may show up, they may show up and check the box.
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I mean, l- you know, we've all read these crazy stories about, like, total fake work getting done, and they may collect a paycheck, but there is, there's not much of real value happening, right?
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I mean, and that, you know, I feel like it, it- You're not gonna innovate if you're the leader and you're never gonna ever hear what anyone below you thinks or feels or listen to their ideas because you are just the one who knows it all.
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Like, that's- Mm-hmm... not conducive, right? I mean, that's my opinion. It's not conducive to growth. A lot of the things we've tried here at Your Tango on the editorial side has been because- Bottoms up, baby...
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of writing intern. Yeah, I mean, uh, it, but, but also we all respect that our Sabrina- Mm-hmm... and you know what you're talking about, you know? [laughs] Yeah, and great leader, great leaders do, you know? Yeah.
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So a great leader is not, it's, it's the difference between demanding and commanding, right? So, uh, a great leader commands by the person that they are. A, a, a bad leader, [scoffs]
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uh, demands, and then, you know, then you create this environment where people are very timid, they're afraid to speak up, they don't wanna...
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Like, it's a very offensive spirit that's in the air as opposed to people being inspired and people saying like, "Here's a great idea. What do you think?" "Oh, that's good. Let's do this. Let's not do this."
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You know, and then testing things out because great people in business understand it's all a risk. Nobody really knows everything, you know?
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And, and the most scary people are the ones that think they know everything, so it, it be- Yeah, they're the ones that get phased out, right? Like, you think about- Yeah...
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the automotive industry, and they, it was this if you stick right now that it's gonna be all gasoline and diesel engines and nothing else, you're gonna get phased out 'cause those disruptors are listening to the people who have something new and challenging to say, right?
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Yeah. Yeah, and that's why I think the relationship part is really important because it's not...
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People always say like, "It's the leader's responsibility," and then people are like, "No, it's the worker's responsibility," but it's both. Like- Yeah... you have to come together and make the business.
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[laughs] So that's, that, that relationship- Yeah... between the leader and the worker, you know, is very important.
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Yeah, no, I just, I, I wanna, uh, just pause on that for a moment because I, I do feel like, uh, the numbers in terms of how dissatisfied people are in their work are off the charts.
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It's like, I, I don't have them at my fingertips, but I wanna say like 70% of people hate their job. I mean, it is insane.
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And so when I hear you say, i- you know, there, I feel like as people that are, are not the boss, you know, whether they're more junior or more mid-level, I feel like, um, they all, and I'm, I'm, I'm a leader, so I'm gonna say they because it's not a me, um, have more power than they realize, right?
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And it just almost feels like there's that victimhood thing there too, right? I mean, to say, "Hey, my boss sucks, my team sucks," and then they're showing up, and no surprise. They're, it's like, "Well, if you say so."
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Right? Yeah. So what do you, what do you advise?
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If you've had that experience in your own successful business or where you've seen it elsewhere, what do you advise when you have that kind of dissatisfaction or, um, grumpiness, you know, with the employee, the employee?
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What do you... Like, what do, what do you advise? Because I, I don't, I, I'm with you. It is about relationship. It's, it can't, you can't clap with one hand. Yeah.
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So, um, if you, if you're saying from the worker's point of view- Mm-hmm... because I've been that- Yeah...
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you know, I think if you've ever been under bad leadership, you do have every option to quit, but who does that hurt the most? Mm-hmm. And that's what I've always known. Mm-hmm.
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When I had a bad leader, I never looked at that leader and I never gave you control over me by quitting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Because I, sometimes we think, and a lot of people think like this today, by quitting, that's your last power move that you're gonna throw down. Mm. But who did that really hurt?
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Because when that leader gets replaced later on, you lost an opportunity. Mm-hmm. Wow, yes. Uh, you, you lost s- a lot more than just, like, throwing down your power in that moment.
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So I would be cautious with what you're doing when you're, when you're not in a good place, and then I know this sounds so simple, but it, it's just the truth. Just do the right thing, then do the next right thing.
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Mm-hmm. And that's what you have to do. Mm-hmm. And, and what I have seen in almost two decades of being in business-There's nothing that overcomes that.
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You know, what you'll be, what you'll be shocked to realize is that time is the greatest revealer. It's not a healer- [laughs]... it's a revealer. It's a revealer. Ah, ah. And what you will see- Yes, yes, yes...
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is that if you keep on doing the right thing, uh, you're, you're gonna be okay. If you're a, a, a leader and you have people that are, are not listening, i- it... y- it's the same thing, too.
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You, you've- In a tournament?... gotta keep growing. Totally. You've gotta keep, you know, developing yourself. Start reflecting is what is... And then take ownership. What am I personally doing?
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Because leadership is powerful, right? There's something I am doing that is creating this response. Mm.
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So if I wanna be powerful, instead of throwing my power to people and saying, "Well, it's because of you we don't have results," well, why wouldn't I keep my power- Mm-hmm...
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and say, "There's something I'm creating right now that I need to reflect on, and I need to change what I'm doing so I get a difference in behavior, and we can move this in a different direction"? Yeah.
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Well, let me ask you a specific question, because we've had an ig- we've had people come through where, places I've worked, including YourTango, that seem like, I mean, you think of Eeyore in Winnie the Pooh.
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Like, no matter- Mm-hmm... what happens, it's like, "Oh, I guess I have to do this now," and like, "Oh," and they bring other people down. And you sit there and you...
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Like, with one example, I'm thinking of this person, like, we really wanted them to succeed. It was like they had so much talent in so many different ways, but they were so...
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It was almost like internally they were committed to hating the situation and failing. Mm-hmm. It was wild, and yet they still felt like the victim.
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Like, if you had someone like that, where you really wish they would step up, how do you lead them? How do you inspire them without maybe coddling?
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You don't wanna coddle that sort of mentality, but instead of firing them and finding someone new and training them and losing all those productivity hours, what, what's the solution from a leadership perspective?
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It is firing them, finding someone else- [laughs]... training them, and spending- Thank you... the money to get them out. [laughs] Okay. Okay. I got it. That is very motivating. I hear you. [laughs] Yeah.
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And, and, you know, we've had, you know, here at YourTango, we, we, yeah, I really pride ourselves on having a, an incredible core team, and we've just built on this core, and then there are a handful of people if we've, as we've been aggressive in our growth, that are, you know, I just say, "It's just not a fit," right?
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And it's like you don't wanna- Yeah... point fingers, and you just wanna say, "It's just not a fit." But I love your clear... Sabrina, thank you for that. Like, very clear. Yeah. All right.
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I got a funny, embarrassing story from when I was in my 20s when I was working in corporate America. I was in fin- I was a financial analyst, um, at Enron.
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And, uh, oh my gosh, I had, like, this hardcore boss, like, hardcore, this woman, and for my, I don't remember if it was my first- or second-year annual review...
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Do you guys remember that book Don't Sweat the Small Stuff? Mm-hmm. Remember that little book? [laughs] My friends were like, "Oh my God, are you kidding? I brought her that book." [laughs] It's like, what is going on?
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But I, I say that, like, I haven't thought about this in years, Sabrina. It's like I was that, kind of that, that, um, employee that it's like, "And do the next right thing, and do the next right thing."
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And this woman, I, we got along okay. Um, but I just, I felt like I wasn't... I, it's like, I just, I just was gonna do as good a work as I can. And honestly, Joanna, you'll appreciate this.
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I feel like I met her where she was, and she got... You know, and it was, like, it, just this funny dynamic. Like, can you imagine bringing your boss, uh, how to, how not to sweat [laughs] the small stuff?
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Like- Yeah, that's wild... hey, don't stress out so much. I'm like, "What was I thinking?" [laughs] Oh, passive agg- yeah, yeah, it's so funny. But like- No, I think it was sincerity. If... By the way, if it- Yeah...
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if it came from a place of passive aggression, game over for me. I, you know, I think the, back to what you were saying, Sabrina, when I think we show up with sincerity to do the right thing,
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that is a game changer, right? That, the, we, we feel it.
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Even if we don't say the perfect words, even if we feel awkward, I feel like that true intention, um, that prevails, and I think that's incumbent upon all of us, uh, you know, whether we're a leader, uh, you know, an employee, whatever level we are, just to say, "Okay, let me check my intention."
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Because if my- Yep... intention's good, then good results are gonna emerge. And, and be- Have you-... willing to have the hard conversations as needed. Yeah.
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And- And as a parent, it's so funny how many times as, we're all parents here on this call. You know it. You know it.
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So, uh, Sabrina, I have a almost 19-year-old, a 16-year-old, and a 5-year-old, so it's just wild differences in these experiences, and my 16-year-old is, like, an elite high school baseball player, and I was not an athlete.
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The things that I've learned for myself through giving him advice, I've, like, grown up so much. For instance, having a really bad- I love it... coach, okay? He has a coach that makes him, you know, whatever.
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"He's always benching me," or, "I'm... He makes me do whatever. He does this," and instead of getting wrapped up in that thought process with him, I'll go, "Okay.
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Right now let's just talk about something you might be doing that might be causing you to be benched. Like, what might it be? Are you showing up late? Have you been having maybe even a low-key attitude?
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Are other people cleaning up balls and you're farting around?" Like, going through the list and being like, "I'm not saying you should be treated badly, but let's just figure out what you can control." Yeah.
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What does a star athlete act like? Does he go and, like, kick a rock across the infield when he's pissed about something, or does he suck it up and get through the game and play even better when he's mad?
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Like, and then I'm like, oh my gosh, this is such an amazing message for me, too. You're like, "Can I give my own advice? Can I take my own advice, please?" Yeah. [laughs] You play with the coach that you got. Yeah.
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You know what I mean? And, like, yeah, you can change teams. Play the hand you're dealt. You play the hand you're dealt. Yeah, yeah.
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You can change teams next season, all right, or you can power through and see if that c- coach gets fired, or learn your stuffAnd step up. Yeah, and what you're really doing is you're having great conversations.
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You know, when I talk to my people, and they, they have someone that they're working with, and they call me and ask me for help, and as I'm coaching them, I'm listening to my own words and, and I'm thinking, "Okay, I can apply that to this relationship- Mm-hmm.
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Yeah... that I'm in- It's tumbling... so that I can..." Yeah.
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And that, and that's just a self-aware leader or coach that is, like, using words to, to help fuel them in different relationships, which is really, really powerful.
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That's, I think that's the whole point of life, actually. That's it. So that we can push forward instead of... And that's why I don't like the victim mentality or that victim- Mm... mindset because it's so self-centered.
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It's so inward. Mm-hmm. It's me, me, me, me, me. It's this, this, this. Instead of you pushing out greatness, you're just so engulfed in yourself, and it's like- It's so disempowering too. Like- Yeah, 100%...
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when you're stuck with what you think of as a bad boss or a bad coworker or whatever, if you can focus on, "What's my job here? What do I- Yeah... I need to do next? How will I do the right thing?
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How do I act like the CEO, if that's the job I want? How do I act like the star baseball player or the whatever?" Yeah. That's empowering. Yeah. It gives you something to do.
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If you wanted to ruin someone, like, if you wanted to take someone's life and say, "Let me destroy you," this is what you would do. You'd say, "Be a victim." Like, you would just- Yeah...
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literally say that to them, and that would happen. Poor you. Right. Always, uh, y- yeah, always sort of put them kind of, uh, put, like you say, kind of- Everyone's against you Mm-hmm Nothing is working for you. Mm-hmm.
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Like, everything is conspiring against you, and it's like- Mm-hmm... well, that doesn't sound very good. So then- Yeah... what happens to that person is why would you try?
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Why would you even, like, push or put any effort into anything? You know? Y- you just wouldn't. And then slowly it starts to take, uh, a hit on your spirit, and that's not good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love this. I love...
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Eh, Sabrina, you are awesome. I love you. I wanna meet you in person. Thank you. Give you a big, uh- Ah... hug and high five. Okay, so I wanna go back.
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You and I were chatting earlier, and you said something that, that, you know, you said, you know, you were using the word shock before. It was kinda shocking because it was so honest. So- Mm-hmm...
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you mentioned before that you were immature and selfish. Those are hard things to say about oneself. Talk to me about that experience and, and just a little prompt if you're like, "Wait, what?"
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Uh, y- you talked about that in reference to when you had children, and I think it, you were maybe referring to some of the estrangement you had from your family. So what, what happened?
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How did you go from selfish and immature to, you know, the ninja warrior? Yeah, so, you know, with my parents, um, when I was 19, uh, my father and myself, we had a very bad conversation.
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And he said, "I'm gonna cut you off." I'm... You know, I lived under my parents' rule. My father was so strict. Um, it was very fear-based, and it was all about, like, we are disciplined, uh, girls.
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We have to do things, and everything has to be in order. And, uh, what happened when I was 19, he just pulled the rug from underneath me and just left me and I, and said, like, "I'm not supporting you.
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I'm not, I'm not helping you with anything." And he said, "I'm gonna cut your wings off." And it was, uh- Ooh... scary- Snips... 'cause I was, um, yeah, I was going, uh, to university, and I didn't have...
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Like, I had to pay my way through school, so I was working full time, going to school full time. Um, so it was really, really scary for me. Um, but, you know, we didn't talk for a very long time.
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I went through all of university. I graduated. I ended up moving from Canada to the United States in that time period. I started, um, a career in insurance.
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My goal was to be a medical doctor, but I couldn't because of no money. So I got recruited by an insurance company. Mm. Did very well.
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And it wasn't until I had, you know, I had children, where I started really reflecting on all the things that parents do for us. Yeah.
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Like, where we make decisions based upon one conversation, and we let that one conversation determine the fate of that entire relationship.
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And I, I was like, I remember changing my child's diapers and thinking to myself, like, "This is so selfish of me." Like, to, to not have my parents see their grandchildren- Right...
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and to not have them in their life and to be, like, this kind of person. And, you know, I, I am, I'm a very religious person. I'm b- I'm, like, God is a huge part of, of my life.
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And I, I would think, like, "This is not what God wants me to do." Like, maybe- Sure...
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I had to have that moment of isolation to get myself on my feet and to have that courage to know that I did that, but, like, this isn't good forever. This is not right.
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And so I started to see, like, I can continue to be selfish, and I can continue to be immature, or I can grow up, and I can repair that relationship. Yeah.
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And I can reach out to my parents and, and say, like, you know, uh, "I, I want to have a relationship with you. If you're, if you've evolved, and I've evolved, why can't we come together from a different place?"
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You know, when I see people in relationships today, um, it's just so easy to stop talking to people, and I think that's a very, very shameful way [laughs] to be. Um, and I'm- Mm...
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I'm, I'm saying this shameful word because I know 'cause I did it. And, and I, I didn't- You did... I didn't want that shame on me anymore. God, good for you. And I, I do, I... Yeah, I just wanted to be...
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I wanted to make my creator proud, that I grew, that I evolved, and I wanted to repair that relationship.
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Um, and, and I know it's notLike, every relationship has its different nuances, but never let, like, a conversation dictate the foreverness of a relationship.
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And I think we're so extreme in today's world where we can't go back and say, like, "Okay, well this person did a thousand good things for me, then they said one bad thing," and you're just like, "I'm done." Mm-hmm.
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Uh, that is immature. So then- Oh my God. G- God bless you...
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but, but like, I think we would all agree that there are circumstances where a parent will, like you're saying, it's not just one time, like continually bringing really bad energy, maybe even being emotionally abusive.
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In that circumstance, that seems like it has to be different. Like, you can make maybe a more extreme- Yeah... decision. I think time and space is incredibly important when people are finding themselves.
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Because, you know, the, the benefit of that period of isolation for me is that I didn't have multiple voices rolling in my head, so I could just focus on work and get really good and concentrate.
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So this is why I don't hold any negative feelings, and I'm grateful for the way everything played out.
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But I feel like I can go back and be grateful because it's repaired, because I got to that place where I said- Yeah... like, "This doesn't have to continue. It doesn't have to be forever like this."
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And I think what a lot of people do today is they're just like, "I'm never gonna talk to you again." I wouldn't- Yeah... one of the things that I learned in my, in my time in my life is never say never. Never say never.
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[laughs] So you mentioned- Mm-hmm... your parents also evolved. You evolved. You did the work. Were they also changing from their perspective, and did you ever get an apology for any of that?
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Yeah, my, my parents are incredible grandparents to my children, and that is the greatest gift to see, you know? And it's, it's almost like a, it's a full circle moment.
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I think that's like a circle of life that everyone should experience, because for them, it gives them life, it gives me life.
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And, and I think too what, what happens is, um, we come to terms to understand that there is no such thing as a perfect parent-child relationship. There's issues that go back and forth.
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But again, like, if you can get to that place where you're just grateful for it all, um, they are your parents. And I tell people this on my team all the time when I have people that have issues.
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I said, "You wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for your parents." [laughs] Like, "If you owe them one thing, it's your life, you know?" [laughs] So just find one thing, hang on to it, and move on.
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Instead of looking at, like, the one thing negative, just find the one thing positive. It doesn't mean you have to be best buddies and call them every day and have them over for dinner every day. Yeah.
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You can release that hate and that bitterness that's inside of you. Yeah, you can have that healthy boundary. My f- my husband talks a lot about how his father was not the best. He's passed on since and had a lot of...
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It's his story to tell. But it, he did, he was, i- his father kept proving that he was not a good force in his life. But my husband- Yeah...
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would say to you, "I would not want something bad to happen to my dad, and I hope he's feeling at peace."
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And it, he could have that boundary, "I can't let this person into my life for these various very powerful reasons," but he didn't sit there and linger on- Good...
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how his dad was a jerk and wanted him to, like, fall in a hole or anything. It was just, "Not for me. That's okay. Hope he's at peace."
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And that's perfect, 'cause he's in, he's doing it from a powerful point of view instead of, like, you know, giving that person all the power, because you're just running off of hate and anger- Yeah...
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which is what a lot of people do. Yep, so disempowering. How did you, how, how did you have that... I mean, so you were changing the diapers.
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I mean, was there anything else that was going on in your life that helped you get to that aha? Yeah. To me, it's like, what do you value, right? I, I value family. Um, I value that I want...
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You know, I grew up with all my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, and having that atmosphere around me.
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And, you know, even though I was in that career moment of my life where maybe I didn't feel like I need that, but I didn't want my children to grow up that way. I don't want them to be isolated.
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I want them to be around- Mm-hmm... family. I want them to know what family you come from and how many people love you. Um, so it's, it's a lot of things. I think as you get older too, you think about your legacy.
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I think you think about, like, "What am I, what is the meaning behind what I'm doing?" It's not just to have, like, a nice bank account. It's to make sure that I pass on good values and principles, uh, to my children.
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And then, you know, the thought of me ever not talking to my children is, like- Ah, God... horrifying to me. You can't. Like, you can't imagine. No, it's, it's humbling. It's so humbling.
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And I love, I, I just, I love your, just that, um, that just vulnerability and humility that, that you're talking about here, right?
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Because, uh, to me, the bi- one of the biggest ahas in my own life is how much strength there is in being vulnerable, how much strength there is in being open and being able to say things. 'Cause I've said it too.
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I don't meet many people like you that say, "Oh, yeah, I was being selfish. Oh, yeah, I was being immature."
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But I felt like as I've been able to say those things about myself, that I've been able to set myself free, and it's been in that vulnerability that I've become way more powerful, right? And that's, I feel like, the big,
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uh, uh, kind of, um, paradox. [earthquake] [gasps] Earthquake. Oh, is everything okay there? Oh. Oh.
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[sighs] You guys, we just had the hugest earthquake. That... A huge earthquake. Huge.
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The hugest earthquake I've ever been in.I was like, "What happened to J- [laughs] I thought there was, like, a vacuum clean- I'm so sorry. No. Yeah You guys, things fell off my shelves, like, uh, on- Oh, wow...
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uh, right, uh, right above me. Oh my g- I have to... I'm gonna pause, close my ca- I have to go check on my mom. I'll be right back. Okay. Yeah, yeah, come back. We'll keep talking. Okay. That's crazy.
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Yeah, I heard it was, like, all that background noise. I was like, "Oh, what just happened?" Like, "Did something just fall down?" Yeah, it did. Yeah. I hope everyone's okay.
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So I'm gonna ask- I was gonna ask, where, where is she? In California? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, my. Southern California, uh, earthquakes. They're real. No joke. That's, that's scary. [laughs] Yeah. A little- [laughs]...
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little scary. Yeah, totally. We'll see what, you know, what else the news has to say about that. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's get back into it. All right. So I have a burning question for you. Sure.
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You are very pro, pro women, and you are pretty tough on women. Um, you think women should learn from men. So A, do you consider yourself a feminist, and B, why do you take this approach?
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Um, because I know what worked for me, and I would never subscribe something that didn't work for me to someone else- Mm-hmm... to make a profit. And so, uh, I think that's- Mm... not right at all.
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And so for me, um, I learned from very, very strong men. Um, and so I know that business is a very masculine space. And so I'm not about, like, gender. I'm not about, like, male, female. I'm not about color. Mm-hmm.
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I'm not about age. I, I look at it- Mm... from the most unbiased point of view. Yeah. When I look at someone, I look through them and say- Yeah...
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"Get me to the core of who you are, and let me see if we can align in our principles and our values. And if we can-" Yeah... "then we can hang." Yeah.
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"If not, I don't care if you're an alien or if you're, like, a man or a woman or whatever you are." Mm-hmm. "I want nothing to do with you." So- Mm-hmm... I don't, I don't play favorites at all. I, I- Yeah. Mm...
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I really do not subscribe to that. At the same time, I understand that, you know, when you look at someone, as human beings, we have a tendency to gravitate towards what is like us. And so in the- Mm-hmm...
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business world, 'cause it's very male-dominated, they're more comfortable working with other men and males because it's just more comfortable for them. And so I'm- Mm-hmm...
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very grateful that I have been surrounded by males that never were like that. They didn't- Mm-hmm... make me, um, do that.
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And you know what's so funny about life, and this is why I love my father so much, because we were raised... You know, my, my parents had four girls, right? You're right.
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Um, we were raised so tough, and there wasn't a, a, a male that we were, you know, competing with. So my father didn't have a favorite- Right... that was a guy, so that was never in my head, and that- Mm...
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seed never got planted for me. It was about who was the best. Mm-hmm. And it was about, like, who can perform the best, who can, you know, do the best, who can deliver the goods. And so for, for me- Me-...
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that's how I look at business. Now, when, when... For, for women, if you, um, if you make those claims with me, I don't like that because when I say...
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Like, if someone says, like, "I'm a woman, I should be treated differently," um, I, I don't subscribe to that. I think that- Mm-hmm...
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that's not how you really grow your best self, if you're given favoritism because of your age or gender or, or, or that. That's- Yeah... my personal view because nobody did that for me, and it- Mm-hmm... made me strong.
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Mm-hmm. What would be an example of someone, like, wanting that kind of special treatment? Like, I'm just trying to get a picture in my head.
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Yeah, so, um, I think what's really important is, um, especially when you're building cultures for teams, is to just set a tone like it's not even acceptable so then those things don't arise. So I don't- Mm-hmm...
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get a lot of that that even comes around me. Yeah. Yeah.
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But, um, you know, if someone starts talking and, you know, they, uh, they, they say things like, "Well, I'm a female, I'm going through different things than you are," like, that language, um- Yeah...
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you know, is, is something that it, it- It's divisive in your mind. Yes. 100%. Yeah. So then do you think that male leaders then can learn from women as well?
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Like, if we're learning from men and how they succeeded, it seems like, to me, there's also a way in which men can look at the ways in which women have succeeded when we've had opportunities in whatever w- areas where we dominate and learn from us.
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So, so this is the thing, right? Um, creation happens with male and female. If you want your- Yeah... business to do good- Yeah. Yeah... you have to have the ability to go to both, and that's why- Mm-hmm...
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I say we're not equal. We're different. And if you... Like, if...
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What I tell people that are female is that if you can learn how to play in a masculine space and still have feminine qualities about you, you are dangerous. Mm-hmm. You are- Yeah... so good.
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And it's like you don't have to lose yourself and become masculine and forget your femininity.
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The same way, like, a, a, a, a heavy male presence, if you brought a female around, she could see things that you can't see, 'cause female intuition is very different than male intuition.
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And so if you can incorporate that into your business, then what you're gonna do is you're gonna grow your business. You're gonna actually create things that you couldn't have created if it was just all men in there.
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And it's scary for people. You know, it's scary for people to think like this, like, what is, what, what people see different. But what I've also learned too is that you can, you can change your brain.
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I say to people, like- Yeah...
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you don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain.So I, I learn how to rewire my brain all the time, and I can, I can go into different spaces and see from different perspectives all the time.
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I don't get wrapped up in, like, getting myself in a box, and then I'm so stubborn that I can't see another perspective. That's bad business. How do you rewire your brain? What, what is a practical, uh, approach to that?
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So i- if I wanna rewire for masculine strength, I have to talk to strong, masculine people. Right. If I wanna rewire and develop my softer side, I have to talk to people that have that skill set. Oh, uh-huh.
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And then what happens is you're gonna start to see that you morph. And this is why when I say I'm whole, I feel whole because I have both of those capabilities now.
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It doesn't happen overnight, but if it's something that you're aware of, you can, you can create that for yourself, and then you, you see both sides instead of only seeing one side, which is how a lot of people operate.
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Okay, so I wanna jump in. I promised at the beginning of the show, there were some...
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I mean, I loved so much of your book, but there were a handful of bits that I excerpted that I wanna read just because they're so good. And then I have a, I, I, I, I do have another, uh, burning question.
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So you say these times of great hardship and suffering come into our lives to serve us. The level of pain and suffering will differ from person to person, but it, it exists for all of us. Embrace it, you say.
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When you embrace it, you go through a metamorphosis. This deep and profound change that you will endure will transform you. You go on to say, "Growth doesn't happen in good times.
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Growth happens in the moments of life that challenge and push us. These moments forge a new you. They chisel out your character by the decision you make to keep going and keep growing or stop
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and disintegrate into victimhood. We must choose to do the work that most won't do, so we can get to a place where most can't." Almost done here.
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"Success requires that you step out of this cage of ordinary and walk into the world of driving yourself to the edge of what you really can become.
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In order to get there, you have to push yourself to the very edge, a place where very few people are willing to go." I'm like, whoa, sister, those are some, like, inspiring words and written with so much heart.
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And in talking to you and getting to know you and going, you know, and seeing that metamorphosis that you allowed is, it is inspiring to me.
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And so, you know, mostly I wanna thank you for that because, you know, back to this conversation of, of victimhood and how easy it is to be self-centered and, and me, me, me, and blame, blame, blame, I just love these beautiful words that you've written because the, the truth is, we all have more power than we realize.
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And I, I guess I'm wondering why... I mean, why do you feel like you got this memo so, um, just so powerfully and so many other people don't get the memo?
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And then you, you know, you've done something with it, talking about going to places where few others will go, right? 'Cause it's scary in those places.
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So why, why do you think you, you know, you've, you've been able to answer the call like you have? Um, because I've, I've been in scary situations, you know, where- Yeah...
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you know, when, when you're young, and you're the most vulnerable, and you're in a scary situation, and you have to stand up and face a giant, um, that plants a seed inside of you- Mm-hmm...
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where you start to realize, it's just like when you do hard things. Um- Yes... you start to realize like, "Oh, I can do this." It's, it's- Mm-hmm... you know, and then you do it again.
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And then it becomes easier and easier. And so- Right, right... that's what we do when we are stepping out of the cage, which is very comfortable for us. Mm-hmm.
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But, like, for, for me right now, uh, what I do, and I'm constantly pushing myself to do hard and difficult things because whenever something feels scary to me, I've trained myself to attack it, so it doesn't- Mm-hmm...
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attack me. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, that is not easy, um, but it gets easier. And so what you have to keep on doing is, is, is pushing yourself. And if you look at people that do just
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amazing things, they've, they've encountered a lot of hardship. Yeah. And, um, you know, you don't wish hardship on people, and this is something I grapple with a lot as a mom.
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I look at my kids, and I'm just like, "How do I create someone who's gonna have the spirit of an overcomer when you don't really have a lot to overcome?" [laughs] Right. So... Oh, yeah. We, we- Yeah...
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we can relate to that.
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On the one hand, we, you know, Joanne and I describe ourselves as overachievers, and yet we're trying to, in a way, protect our kids from the grief and heartache that we've experienced, and yet we also know...
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You know, you used the word forge. Oh my God, that, I literally said to a, a friend last night, I'm doing a bunch of social media stuff. It is fricking humbling.
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[laughs] I'm like, oh my God, I l- look like such a du- ding-dong. And I said, "I'm being forged," right? Yeah. And I'm up for it, right? And I could just say, you know- Yeah... "Screw this. It's, it's uncomfortable.
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I don't have time for it." But the exact word of, of s- I am choosing to be forged.
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Yes, I have a lot to share, and I'm eager to do so, but like you, I'm motivated to say, "Put me in that freaking forge because I know I'm gonna come out the other side stronger," right? And, but it's- And, and I'll-...
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definite- I'll tell you-... by definition, uncomfortable, yeah. With kids, and I think about this all the time 'cause I feel like my husband and I have been successful because we had to have so much grit to succeed.
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Mm-hmm. Like, we had to dig in. We did have to push down the hard things for a long time and then deal with them later. And our kids are securely attached and- Oh... very well-loved and- Totally...
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have a lovely car to drive when they turn... Like, what a life.
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But I will tell you, watching my kids grow up, that secure attachmentI believe makes them so strong, and they do find things they have to overcome, and it's the things that you weren't necessarily expecting.
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Like, I'm talking about my son playing baseball. Right. Are these the huge things we dealt with? No, but if you've raised them right, they can develop the grit without the trauma. Oh, I hope so. If that makes sense.
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That, yeah, that's the goal, right? I mean, it's, it's all the good stuff and still having that, that strong work ethic and so forth. Okay, last burning question. If you, if you challenge them to. That's what I'm saying.
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Don't let them quit the baseball team. Don't let them accept their D as a passable grade. Don't... You have to be the challenge that encourages them to get that, to be forged, you know? Yeah.
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But it doesn't have to come with trauma. I, I firmly believe it, so. I, I believe that. Let's hope so. [laughs] And, and thanks for the reminder, 'cause every now and then I wonder about that. Okay.
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I was really surprised to see this. You say, "A few years back, I decided to hire the Navy SEAL, David Goggins, to train me to handle more, to sharpen my mind like never before.
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What I didn't know was how much I would grow spiritually as a result of our work."
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You go on to say, "The very things we are looking to avoid are the very things that we need to confront to go to the next level of our lives." What... How did you get the idea of, of hiring a Navy SEAL?
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I need to know everything about this in, like, 12 seconds. [laughs] And he's amazing. Oh, okay. He's amazing. Well, I mean, tell me everything. So- Okay, you have more than 12 seconds. [laughs] Yeah.
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What, what's amazing about people is, you know, when you see that they have, like, this persona on media, and they're a certain type, um, but when you meet them in real life, they're even better. Oh, wow.
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And that's what, uh, David Goggins is. He's even better in real life, and I was blessed to be able to have some really amazing conversations with him, and what he helped me to become was a better person. Ooh.
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Um, and what I wanted was I wanted to get more tough. Like, I was...
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I just had, um, my second child, and I was like, "Okay, I'm in this mom space," and I'm like, "Let me hire someone who can toughen me up, and, like, go so I can go back and kick some more ass, and, like- Yeah...
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you know, win and keep on getting, getting more, um, you know, driving the business forward."
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And what I found was, like, that's what makes Navy SEALs the incredible human beings that they are is that they're just very, very good in many places in their life, and they're, they're whole people also. Mm-hmm.
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So spiritually, they're on point. Relationally, they're on point. They're mentally tough. They're physically perfection in, in terms of, like, pushing their bodies beyond what most people can, can endure.
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And so what that was able to do for me was just to make me understand, you know, there's different areas in my life that I have to work on, and he brought that to the surface.
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Instead of me just being a good businessperson, I'm a better businessperson when I am a better mom. I'm a better businessperson when I am a better person overall. And so it wasn't about getting more tough.
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It was about getting better as a human being, and that's what he helped me to discover.
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And I've, I've had some great conversations with many Navy SEALs, and I will say that they are s- they are the best human beings walking on planet Earth. I can say that- Wow... with certainty. Oh, my God.
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That is, that is cool. Back to David for one sec. Is there one thing he said... I mean, I'm getting kinda generally that he, you know, he helped maybe pull something out of you.
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But it, was there one thing he said or one a-ha that it's like, oh, like an, an unexpected...
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'Cause it sounded like even in reading your book, it was, like, like the appra- like, maybe you were expecting to do a lot of pushups.
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[laughs] And his, it sounded like the approach was more, was just different, like maybe, maybe more, more of a gentle approach. I mean, so, like, the gentle approach to getting tough. Okay, that's ironic.
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So was there one thing- He's not gentle. No, he's not gentle. Okay. Not, not gentle. Okay. They, they exist in absolute truth. Oh. Um, so they exist- Okay, absolute truth... and you wanna, like...
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If, if I could summarize how Navy SEALs are, they exist in truth and light, where they bring light into the darkness, but they're not afraid to walk in the dark, and those are special people.
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And I feel like I could relate to him so much because my childhood allowed me to exist in the dark, where I didn't get scared, but I knew I had to walk back to the light. Mm.
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And so a lot of people get trapped by the dark, and then they- Yeah... the dark overtakes them. But when you can fight the dark, and the only way to fight the dark is with light- Mm-hmm...
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um, then what happens is you become a better person. You know, some of the things- He-...
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that I would say that he helped to build my confidence because it was, it was really nice to hear him say really good things about me, and he- Mm...
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he would say, like, he would build me up a certain way, but it wasn't in a, in a, in a way where people are just blowing smoke up your ass type of thing. Right. No, that doesn't work, especially with a lady like you.
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That would never work. No. You'd be like, "All right, dude. You're out, you're out." No, no. He, like, if he ever said something, it was so accurate. It was so- Okay...
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on point, and then you, like, hang on to those things, and what- Yeah, yeah... it taught me was that everybody needs, like, some words of reassurance that like- Yeah. Oh... okay, you are doing the right thing.
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You are walking on the right path. We don't need, like, a f- a story or a paragraph or a love letter, but we just need some, like, we also need, like, a, a little bit of, of, of assurance to say, like- Yeah...
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"You're, you're on the right path. You're doing the right things." And I thought- Well, and coming from the right person, right? Yes. It means a lot coming from the right person. I respect. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right.
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That you respect. That is an amazing way to end on. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, Sabrina. You are amazing. Thank you for being on our show.I hope to meet you in person. Well, thank you for having me. Oh my God.
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It was a pleasure. Now I, I've got a, I've got a child who's just jumping in and trying to hug me. All right. Excuse me. Hello. How are you? Andrea's kids are so cute.
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We, we, we love the photo bomber- Look at that cutie... the, the video bombers, the podcast bombers. All right. Cute hug. How old is your son? 11. He's 11. Oh, nice.
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[laughs] He reminds me, I have a, I have a 10-year-old, so that's what that reminded me of. [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. I love that age. You know that energy, right? Yeah. It, it's, it is so sweet. It's so fun.
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They don't care if you're working. They're like- No. Nope... "I don't care." Oh, no. I'm like, "Hey, hold on, hold on." And he's like, you know- Nope... "Video bomb, pod bomb." [laughs] Yeah. Yep.
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We love it here, though. Yeah. It's funny. Don't worry. No, totally. All right. Sabrina, thank you again, and I look forward to, I hope, meeting you and having you back on our show.
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We really appreciate the conversation and all your great work. Okay. Thank you. [clapping] [cheering] Oh my gosh. How cool is she? I know.
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It's like, I'm, I'm sure people are like, "Why, why do you have somebody who runs an insurance business on your show?"
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But her, her book is so compelling, and I just, I love her life stories and how real and authentic and hardcore she is. She's amazing. Sure.
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But before we talk about Sabrina and our best takeaways, woo, Joanna, are you okay? That was a fricking- Yes. Yeah... like, how big of an earthquake was that just now? Like a real earthquake. I don't know.
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I should have checked. It... No, it, it was the biggest earthquake I've ever been in. It went on for so long, and I had to- Oh my gosh... take a break from recording to go get my mom's dog because- Oh my gosh...
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it, she was alone next door. So she's on my lap now, and we're all fine, and my children have texted me, and everybody's okay. [laughs] Oh, phew. Okay. Well, I, I am glad you're okay. Geez.
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That was crazy to see you, like, dive under your desk. Brian, you might have to look... Oh, yeah, and I've never done that. Brian, you might have to look up, uh, how big that earthquake was because it really felt big.
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Phew. Anyway. Yeah. All right. Well, was that- No, no, you literally, like, dove under the desk. I was like, "Oh my God." [laughs] Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh, man. Well, I'm glad you're okay. Thank you. Okay.
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So, uh, rapid fire, quick takeaways. What is the number one thing, Joanna, you're gonna take away from, um, our great conversation with Sabrina?
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I really liked that she talked about victim mentality without making it feel like you're not allowed to talk about what hurt you. Right. The combination of saying, "This is a thing that was a challenge for me.
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This is a thing that was hard. This is a thing I'm still struggling against," and finding the empowerment and the path to success and, and the way out, like she said, moving toward the light.
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I worry a lot about talking negatively about victim mentality, that someone's gonna get... Just push it away. But like she was saying- Right... "No, you have to, you have to deal with it." Mm-hmm.
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And that's how you really find the empowerment. So I really liked that a lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. Uh, Brian, what about you? I mean, this one, this was an easy one for me.
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The difference between commanding and demanding, like, that was huge. Oh. Na, na, na, na.
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Yeah, like, 'cause the idea of commanding is, like, being a good leader and, like, like, you know, even the, the classic, like, the best kings are the ones that were on the battlefield with their, uh, troops, right? Mm.
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Right. Like, like, that's a commander, versus demanding is like, "No, no, no, you go do the fight." Like- Right... there is such an inherent, like, difference, and it's so, like...
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I don't know, I've just never seen it put so succinctly of, like, in one sentence- Right... why are some people a good leader and why are some people not when they ask for a task? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
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And it's, it like... I don't know. That sentence, the difference between commanding and demanding, that's gonna be stuck in my brain forever. That, we're gonna, we're gonna see a meme.
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That might be a bumper sticker on your bike. [laughs] Um, you guys wanna know why that earthquake w- that... You guys wanna know why that earthquake was so strong? Yeah. It was a 4.6 magnitude in Malibu. [laughs] Whoa.
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Wow. So it was in your neighborhood. Literally, yeah. That w- That's wild... that, that, that was a big one. [laughs] Felt all the way in Laguna Beach. That- Well, definitely check on your- That is awesome...
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check on your family after this. I mean, like- Yeah... make sure everyone's okay. [laughs] Go check on the kitty cats, everybody. Your neighbors. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Oh. Woo. Okay.
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Well, I think probably I'm gonna come back to one of the, the... I'm gonna, uh, squeeze two in there.
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I liked how she said she's reading a book or just read a book on poker players and that only 12% of the outcome of the game had to deal, had to do with the cards you were dealt, right? Back to the victim things. Yes.
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Right? It's like, you know, I, I feel like so often we blame our circumstances, and the truth is there's so much more than our circumstances, than the cards we're dealt.
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And I think there's just so much, um, hurt and resentment and estrangement for so many people with their parents, and I just love how she said she had the best parents for her. And she made it pretty clear- Mm...
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and even in reading the book, she was, I think she was a little softer on our call. The, the book is, it's hard to read. It's like, ooh.
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And, um, and so when I think about how she has taken those, um, hardships and transformed them into gratitude and has been able to become that b- that best whole version of herself. I also loved how she said,
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you know, "You never get done healing, but I'm whole." I was like, "Ooh, I like that. I like that." So... Okay, uh, this was yet another amazing episode of Open Relationships Transforming Together.
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Thank you so much for tuning in. If you love our show, please share it. Please subscribe. Uh, uh, please write to us. Tell us what you love. Give us your feedback. Um, we love your advice.
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Our email is openrelationships@yourtango.com. You can find us on iHeart, YouTube, Spotify, Audible, all the places where you get podcasts. And we sincerely are doing this show to help and serve you.
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So we would love your feedback and are super grateful for the, the follows, the likes, the comments. We'll take it all. [clapping] [cheering] Thank you.
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[upbeat music]
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[upbeat music] Love the sound effects every time. Feels so good. Hi there. My name is Andrea Miller. I am the host of Open Relationships: Transforming Together.
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I am joined by my co-host, Joanna Schroeder, and our amazing producer, Brian Adkins. We have an amazing guest for you today, Sabrina Lloyd.
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But before I give her incredible introduction, I just wanna give a huge reminder why we are doing this show. And as the name implies, we are here to transform together, and I say this with sincerity and gravity.
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To transform by ourselves, it's impossible. It is impossible. We transform in relationship. And as somebody who reads a lot of self-help books and goes to seminars and watches the videos and all that stuff...
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I do, I promise you I do. That's all in a lab if you ask me.
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Where it really counts in the real world, where we really transform is in our relationships, where we are in relation with one another and having to deal with unexpected outcomes and the hurt and the heartache and all that stuff.
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And so we are bringing you this show because we know that's how we transform in our lives.
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So with no further ado, I'm excited to introduce Sabrina Lloyd, an entrepreneur who founded the Lloyd Agency, the leading insurance agency for the transportation industry.
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Her book, Stand Alone: How to Be an Extraordinary Leader, is a bestseller with Post Hill Press and is based on the principles of her success.
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She weaves her leadership advice into a compelling narrative punctuated by gripping personal anecdotes and experiences. Sabrina also runs the Stand Alone podcast and has a large Instagram following.
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Sabrina, you are a warrior, a ninja, and a sage all rolled into one. [laughs] You have experienced profound hardship and you have risen like a phoenix. I'm like, "Ooh, baby." I'm loving this lady.
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[audience cheering] Thank you for being on our show. [laughs] I'm gonna have to use that. I'm gonna go to my team today- Hit it... and say, "I'm a warrior-" Yeah, it's all you girl.
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Warrior, ninja, and sage all rolled into one. Right. [laughs] So, uh, so you open your book in a way that I didn't expect. You open your book talking about the scared little girl you once were.
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You refer to the violence and trauma you grew up with that shaped you. Will you elaborate on what happened and how from all that heartache you emerged to be this strong entrepreneur, leader, and mother? Yeah.
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So I was raised by two perfect parents for me, but it wasn't, uh, at that time. It was the most imperfect situation you could ever imagine. And the reason why I open up the book that way, um, I actually...
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It took me a while to like address all the things that I went through to actually start to realize why I am the way I am. Because until we do that, we can't really transform.
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Um, we have to revisit our past and see why we do things so we can go from almost like you're looking at yourself from an outside view so you can actually help yourself.
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[laughs] Um, and so when I started to do this, I started to understand, um, you know, going back and going through my childhood, it was really, it was really tough.
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You know, my father was a very, very strict individual and, uh, we were raised very tough, so he had three girls.
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But when you go through my book you'll realize that when my parents first immigrated to Canada, uh, from South America, they lost their first daughter at the age of two when she was just two years old.
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And so what that did to my father was it put him in this ultra protective state, and I didn't realize that until I had my children.
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And we went through a lot of things and I had to start looking at, you know, how I was raised and what it did to me. And I'm, I feel very blessed and feel very fortunate for everything because it made me who I am.
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And one of the greatest things I ever heard was that if you had the parents you wanted you wouldn't be the person that you are.
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And so just me understanding that and coming full circle, um, and dealing with that, it helped me get through it so I never ever subscribe to a victim mentality. I am not a fan of it when people talk like that.
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You know, I, I, I don't, I don't subscribe to that and I don't share my story with you to make people feel bad for me.
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It's actually something I'm very grateful for because just like every child, we're born innocent into this world.
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And when we see hard things happen, um, when we see abuse, when we see neglect, when we deal with all these things, um, we, we have to process it in the way our young brain understands it.
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And for a lot of us if we don't go and revisit that from a more mature brain, a more, you know, heightened sense, uh,
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well, what happens is you, you tend to act like a child [laughs] for a very long time 'cause you didn't really- Yeah... process, deal with what you had to deal with.
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And you know what's so funny about what we're dealt with in life? I, I was just reading a, a really great book on poker players and, you know, the cards that they're dealt with only determine- Yeah...
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if they win for 12%. You know? What actually matters is how they play the game. So I think that- Oh, baby. I love that. Yep. Yeah. I think that's how we have to look at it.
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So I share my story because, yes, my father was very strict and we've had some very deep conversations and, and then also we've had some times where I'm like, "I don't really wanna talk about this with you [laughs] because I am good."
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Yeah. "We're good." Um, and so-I, I'm, I'm still working on stuff. I, I don't think anyone should ever say, like, "I'm perfectly healed," but I do feel whole. Mm-hmm. I don't feel like- Oh, yeah...
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there's massive voids in my life where I'm, like, hurting and I need to fill it with some unhealthy things, but I think we can always strive to get better, and so that's why I share that story because no parent is perfect.
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And, you know, it was really hard for me to share that stuff with people 'cause I don't ever wanna be disrespectful or dishonorable to my parents. Mm-hmm.
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I have two amazing parents, and I have the greatest relationship with them right now.
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Um, but at the same time, we are human beings and we make errors, and sometimes I do things with my small children that I stand back and say, "I can't believe I just said that. I can't believe I just did that."
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[laughs] Well, we'd love to talk about that on, on this show. Tell us. Tell us how bad it is. [laughs] I... Well, I, I wanna ask Sabrina a question 'cause she brought up something we talk about a lot, Andrea- Yeah...
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and our team talks about a lot- Mm-hmm... which is victim mentality. And I think sometimes- Mm-hmm... that, that term is used in all sorts of ways.
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Like, for some people, I think it's a way to push away that trauma and that hurt. Like, they are like, "No, I'm not gonna be a victim," but then they're not dealing with their junk, you know what I mean? Sure. Yeah.
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So, like, we know that y- you know, I think all three of us can, can say that our childhoods weren't perfect, and again, thank goodness they weren't or we wouldn't be who we were, right? Mm-hmm. So, there is...
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It feels like, to me, there is a part of that healing process where you almost have to be in that, like, "Oh, everything was wrong, everything was messed up.
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I was a victim of this circumstance or of this person," in order to get to that point where you're, like, pushed to take the reins back. Does that make sense?
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Like, where do you find that definition to be really helpful and, like, do you think that it might be, that feeling like the victim might be part of that process?
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Yeah, so I have a science brain where I'm able to look at things, you know, from a bird's-eye view, but then also process-driven.
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So I, I think when people get stuck in that stage of, you know, like, "Everything is bad, and everything doesn't happen good for me," and then they, they take the past and they bring it into the present, they carry it into the future.
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And I... What we have to do is we have to understand, like, everything can follow a process, and just because it was that way doesn't mean it always has to be that way.
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But we do have to visit it, and we have to visit it. If you can learn this great art of just stepping outside of yourself, and then looking- Oh...
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at it from not, like, someone did wrong to me, and then taking it personally, and then getting bitter, 'cause that's what happens. Yeah. Yeah.
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When you're able to look at it and say, like, "Okay, well, if this was my friend and she was telling me a story," um, I would say to my friend, I would say, "You know, that's not right.
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Um, ha- what happened to you isn't good, so how are you gonna make things better?" Like, what- Mm-hmm... we, we, we can agree that that's not right, and we want to agree.
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We wanna see that because we don't wanna do that to our children. Right. And we wanna get better.
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Um, and so just being able to observe it from a different viewpoint, I think is really important instead of from the viewpoint of a victim, like, "Poor me. Why did this happen?"
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Like, there's, you know, and then internalizing it.
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And I think that's where bitterness, uh, you know, starts to grow, and then we start to damage future relationships because we feel like we're owed something or it's not right.
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And we start to tell ourselves some wild stories, and if we can- [laughs]... change those stories, then we can have- Mm-hmm... a different life. Yeah, and it's like there's, there's a, like, imagination on both sides.
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Like, you're pretending every... Pretending everything was perfect is not good, and pretending everything was horrible is also not good. It's like you've...
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It's like the process seems to be, like, recognizing where the victimhood exists in order to push past it, forgive, move on, and get out of that bitterness. Yeah, definitely.
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And then when you get to this place also where, and this is not easy, and, and so I don't say this lightly, and I think we hear this all the time.
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But this is, like, the, the thing that you should be aiming for, and I think we should have something to aim for. If you can get to this place where you are grateful that that happened. Mm-hmm.
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Uh, and, and for a lot of people, listen, worse things have happened to people, so I'm not saying... You know, I'm, I'm just speaking from my vantage point. It was horrible,
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especially for a little girl, you know, to go through what I went through, but now I'm so grateful because it put something inside of me that I would not have. Mm-hmm. And I see this, like, in the business world.
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I don't get intimidated by anyone. I literally will stare you down and make you afraid of me. Like, I do not back down. Mm-hmm. I, I don't. I don't have that in me, and I would never, ever have that- Mm-hmm...
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if I didn't go through what I went through. And so I love it. I, I'm grateful.
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[laughs] I mean, it's a, it's a superpower, and I, I actually, um, uh, carved out a bunch, or carved out, you know, just wrote down so many of these amazing comments from your book that get to that.
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So we'll, we'll come back to some of them because I just, I have to read them because they're so good.
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Um, but what do you say, what do you say to those people in your life that say, you know, either, "Well, what I experienced was different," the, you know, something, you know, and they're just, they insist on blame, right?
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They insist on blaming their parents or somebody else that did something bad to them, their spouse. They insist on some kind of aggressor, um, that did something, and they,
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they won't move on, or they insist they can't move on. What do you say to people like that?Yeah, so I've worked with, you know, hundreds, I wanna say thousands. I just stopped counting- [laughs]...
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'cause there's so many people I've worked with through- Uh-huh... you know, 18 years of being in business. Yeah.
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And what I've come to realize is that when you try to help or convince someone who doesn't wanna be convinced or who doesn't wanna be helped, you are doing yourself a disservice, and you need to understand that until that person is coming to terms with, "I want to change, I want to get better, I don't wanna be a victim," because if they, if they love that space, um, the thing that can jolt them out of it, this is the truth, is shock.
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Mm-hmm. Mm. And d- do you wanna do that to someone in this litigious world? I don't know if [laughs] I wanna be that person. I could- Not with a camera on. You know, I don't- Yeah, not in the age of social media.
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[laughs] Yeah. I totally, I, I feel bad for people today because what it actually takes, and this is why I say, like, the call of courage in leadership today has never been stronger.
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Because a lot of people are not doing what is required to help people- Mm-hmm... because they're so afraid of how it's gonna be received.
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And, you know, the other thing I say, even though I say people have to want to be changed, I said, "I say this because you should be a living example of someone who has transformed- Totally...
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so you can inspire other people to say like, 'Well, look what happened to her. And she overcame that, so then that could be true for me.'"
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And then when they come and they start to listen with different ears, like, there is that possibility for that transformation to happen, I think that's the call of leadership, for people to be an example, to lead by example.
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So you're not demanding that from others, but you can command it because that's who you are as a person. Oh, my God, sister, you got it. I think that you are a sage, a ninja, a warrior all wrapped into one.
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[laughs] Oh, well, thank you. Uh, and I say that, no, I say that, like, with all sincerity because I've certainly experienced in my journey so much doubt, so much grief, so much heartache.
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And, you know, I feel like I've crossed a number of Rubicons, but I feel like it's because I've done so much hard work, and I've, I've had to be courageous to achieve my full potential, that now I have that to give.
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So it, it feels really good for me to hear that from you. And, and you're right, I feel like we're in a, in a time where words are scary and, you know, and there's a lot of...
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And, and yes, there are cases where words are damaging, but it, it feels like we are in a time in our society where to, um, to speak your mind with conviction can also, um, get you in trouble.
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And, you know, I feel like it can be hard as a leader to do the right thing 'cause that can be weaponized against you. Yeah.
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And what you have to do is you have to know yourself and know that your intentions were pure, so when people do come at you, you, you know, like, that was, that- Yeah... I did that out of helping, not hurting.
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And that's, that's the line that you have to be- Yeah... as a parent, as a leader, where, like, what is the reason that you're doing this? Are you doing this to, like, 'cause it's fun? That's not okay.
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[laughs] Or are you doing- Yeah... this because, no, I'm gonna drive a result to happen here, and I'm gonna be leading with conviction and courage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because as a leader, I'm responsible for influencing.
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I'm not responsible for... You know, if I'm gonna be your leader, I have to influence you. You're not here- Mm-hmm... to influence me. And, and then i- as you get better, you can help to influence someone else.
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And that's, that's- Yeah... something we're getting really, really ha confused because when you blur authority, it's a very slippery slope, and that's what's happening.
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People don't- What do you, what do you mean by that? Well, what's happening is you, you're in this environment where everyone's like, "We're all equal. We're all the same." No, we're not. Right.
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Uh, so while that sounds good, and that's, like, an ideal, um, we, we have differences. And when you come in under the tutelage of someone else, they, y- you have to surrender to them- Mm...
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to allow them to lead you and to build you and to grow you, and that happens with trust. That happens with you having regard and respect for them so that you can surrender to them, and they can help you grow.
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And then when you do that properly, you're able to do that for others, and that's what builds a good culture of people lifting people up instead of we're all the same, and we're all...
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If we're all the same, then we're all flat. Don't you wanna strive for something to go up to? I, I, I agree. I mean, I think in a lot... I mean, let's face it. In a business, there is a hierarchy, right? Yeah.
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And so no, no question, and people bring different value based on their experiences and resources. So I, I would agree s- you know, uh, on, on the plane of humanity, okay, fine. [laughs] We're all equal.
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We're all human beings. But in the plane of business or in the, the field of business, but I think I'm gonna push back pretty hard on this idea of it's somebody else's job to surrender to the authority.
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Isn't it the authority's job to be trustworthy, to be compelling, to be followable? Yeah, to earn that. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
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'Cause I feel like otherwise you've gotta have this, like, patriarchy that male-dominated led so much of the world for so long.
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It feels like there's been this wonderful renaissance in more, more, um, emotionally intel- intelligent leadership. So it's not through command and force.
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It's through I'm following you because you're compelling, not just because I need a paycheck. Right. But it's just like what we talked about before.
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Like, a leader has to have that trust and has to create that environment- Right... where there can be trust, but then- Right... the person who is following has to be coachable. Yeah. They have to want to learn.
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They have to want...
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So you know, the, the word surrender might sound too, like, scary for some people, but-When we say, like, you have to be coachable, it's because if you come into a relationship, because that's all it is. Mm-hmm.
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A relationship is both people having to want to work together. Mm-hmm, yeah. And if you have a great leader, but you don't have a great student, you're still not gonna get a good outcome. You need both of those people.
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I think we're... Yeah, and we're kind of talking about respect when it comes down to it.
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It's like if you, if I come into Your Tango, and I did eight years ago, if I came into this workplace and I assumed I knew as much as my direct supervisor, whose name is also Sabrina, or Andrea. Yeah.
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And it was like, they're like, "Here's, here's what we've tested, here's what works.
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Please follow these instructions," I, I do those things 'cause I respect the fact that they've been here longer than me and they have this experience.
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However, part of the reason I respect them is because if I said, "I wonder if this way that we've always done it, I wonder if we should try this other way.
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Here's why I think that," I respect them because they also would be respectful enough of me to not be like, "Listen, we're not gonna have this conversation. I'm the boss." Like, they let me give that- Yeah...
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feedback and respect me in that position, but I also don't assume that I know as much as them, if that makes sense. It's a mutual respect where... But you do have to earn that. You have to earn that respect.
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If someone seems like a foolish leader, the people who follow them are not going to be loyal. Well, they may show up, they may show up and check the box.
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I mean, l- you know, we've all read these crazy stories about, like, total fake work getting done, and they may collect a paycheck, but there is, there's not much of real value happening, right?
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I mean, and that, you know, I feel like it, it- You're not gonna innovate if you're the leader and you're never gonna ever hear what anyone below you thinks or feels or listen to their ideas because you are just the one who knows it all.
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Like, that's- Mm-hmm... not conducive, right? I mean, that's my opinion. It's not conducive to growth. A lot of the things we've tried here at Your Tango on the editorial side has been because- Bottoms up, baby...
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of writing intern. Yeah, I mean, uh, it, but, but also we all respect that our Sabrina- Mm-hmm... and you know what you're talking about, you know? [laughs] Yeah, and great leader, great leaders do, you know? Yeah.
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So a great leader is not, it's, it's the difference between demanding and commanding, right? So, uh, a great leader commands by the person that they are. A, a, a bad leader, [scoffs]
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uh, demands, and then, you know, then you create this environment where people are very timid, they're afraid to speak up, they don't wanna...
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Like, it's a very offensive spirit that's in the air as opposed to people being inspired and people saying like, "Here's a great idea. What do you think?" "Oh, that's good. Let's do this. Let's not do this."
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You know, and then testing things out because great people in business understand it's all a risk. Nobody really knows everything, you know?
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And, and the most scary people are the ones that think they know everything, so it, it be- Yeah, they're the ones that get phased out, right? Like, you think about- Yeah...
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the automotive industry, and they, it was this if you stick right now that it's gonna be all gasoline and diesel engines and nothing else, you're gonna get phased out 'cause those disruptors are listening to the people who have something new and challenging to say, right?
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Yeah. Yeah, and that's why I think the relationship part is really important because it's not...
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People always say like, "It's the leader's responsibility," and then people are like, "No, it's the worker's responsibility," but it's both. Like- Yeah... you have to come together and make the business.
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[laughs] So that's, that, that relationship- Yeah... between the leader and the worker, you know, is very important.
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Yeah, no, I just, I, I wanna, uh, just pause on that for a moment because I, I do feel like, uh, the numbers in terms of how dissatisfied people are in their work are off the charts.
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It's like, I, I don't have them at my fingertips, but I wanna say like 70% of people hate their job. I mean, it is insane.
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And so when I hear you say, i- you know, there, I feel like as people that are, are not the boss, you know, whether they're more junior or more mid-level, I feel like, um, they all, and I'm, I'm, I'm a leader, so I'm gonna say they because it's not a me, um, have more power than they realize, right?
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And it just almost feels like there's that victimhood thing there too, right? I mean, to say, "Hey, my boss sucks, my team sucks," and then they're showing up, and no surprise. They're, it's like, "Well, if you say so."
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Right? Yeah. So what do you, what do you advise?
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If you've had that experience in your own successful business or where you've seen it elsewhere, what do you advise when you have that kind of dissatisfaction or, um, grumpiness, you know, with the employee, the employee?
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What do you... Like, what do, what do you advise? Because I, I don't, I, I'm with you. It is about relationship. It's, it can't, you can't clap with one hand. Yeah.
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So, um, if you, if you're saying from the worker's point of view- Mm-hmm... because I've been that- Yeah...
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you know, I think if you've ever been under bad leadership, you do have every option to quit, but who does that hurt the most? Mm-hmm. And that's what I've always known. Mm-hmm.
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When I had a bad leader, I never looked at that leader and I never gave you control over me by quitting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Because I, sometimes we think, and a lot of people think like this today, by quitting, that's your last power move that you're gonna throw down. Mm. But who did that really hurt?
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Because when that leader gets replaced later on, you lost an opportunity. Mm-hmm. Wow, yes. Uh, you, you lost s- a lot more than just, like, throwing down your power in that moment.
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So I would be cautious with what you're doing when you're, when you're not in a good place, and then I know this sounds so simple, but it, it's just the truth. Just do the right thing, then do the next right thing.
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Mm-hmm. And that's what you have to do. Mm-hmm. And, and what I have seen in almost two decades of being in business-There's nothing that overcomes that.
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You know, what you'll be, what you'll be shocked to realize is that time is the greatest revealer. It's not a healer- [laughs]... it's a revealer. It's a revealer. Ah, ah. And what you will see- Yes, yes, yes...
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is that if you keep on doing the right thing, uh, you're, you're gonna be okay. If you're a, a, a leader and you have people that are, are not listening, i- it... y- it's the same thing, too.
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You, you've- In a tournament?... gotta keep growing. Totally. You've gotta keep, you know, developing yourself. Start reflecting is what is... And then take ownership. What am I personally doing?
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Because leadership is powerful, right? There's something I am doing that is creating this response. Mm.
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So if I wanna be powerful, instead of throwing my power to people and saying, "Well, it's because of you we don't have results," well, why wouldn't I keep my power- Mm-hmm...
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and say, "There's something I'm creating right now that I need to reflect on, and I need to change what I'm doing so I get a difference in behavior, and we can move this in a different direction"? Yeah.
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Well, let me ask you a specific question, because we've had an ig- we've had people come through where, places I've worked, including YourTango, that seem like, I mean, you think of Eeyore in Winnie the Pooh.
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Like, no matter- Mm-hmm... what happens, it's like, "Oh, I guess I have to do this now," and like, "Oh," and they bring other people down. And you sit there and you...
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Like, with one example, I'm thinking of this person, like, we really wanted them to succeed. It was like they had so much talent in so many different ways, but they were so...
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It was almost like internally they were committed to hating the situation and failing. Mm-hmm. It was wild, and yet they still felt like the victim.
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Like, if you had someone like that, where you really wish they would step up, how do you lead them? How do you inspire them without maybe coddling?
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You don't wanna coddle that sort of mentality, but instead of firing them and finding someone new and training them and losing all those productivity hours, what, what's the solution from a leadership perspective?
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It is firing them, finding someone else- [laughs]... training them, and spending- Thank you... the money to get them out. [laughs] Okay. Okay. I got it. That is very motivating. I hear you. [laughs] Yeah.
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And, and, you know, we've had, you know, here at YourTango, we, we, yeah, I really pride ourselves on having a, an incredible core team, and we've just built on this core, and then there are a handful of people if we've, as we've been aggressive in our growth, that are, you know, I just say, "It's just not a fit," right?
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And it's like you don't wanna- Yeah... point fingers, and you just wanna say, "It's just not a fit." But I love your clear... Sabrina, thank you for that. Like, very clear. Yeah. All right.
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I got a funny, embarrassing story from when I was in my 20s when I was working in corporate America. I was in fin- I was a financial analyst, um, at Enron.
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And, uh, oh my gosh, I had, like, this hardcore boss, like, hardcore, this woman, and for my, I don't remember if it was my first- or second-year annual review...
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Do you guys remember that book Don't Sweat the Small Stuff? Mm-hmm. Remember that little book? [laughs] My friends were like, "Oh my God, are you kidding? I brought her that book." [laughs] It's like, what is going on?
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But I, I say that, like, I haven't thought about this in years, Sabrina. It's like I was that, kind of that, that, um, employee that it's like, "And do the next right thing, and do the next right thing."
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And this woman, I, we got along okay. Um, but I just, I felt like I wasn't... I, it's like, I just, I just was gonna do as good a work as I can. And honestly, Joanna, you'll appreciate this.
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I feel like I met her where she was, and she got... You know, and it was, like, it, just this funny dynamic. Like, can you imagine bringing your boss, uh, how to, how not to sweat [laughs] the small stuff?
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Like- Yeah, that's wild... hey, don't stress out so much. I'm like, "What was I thinking?" [laughs] Oh, passive agg- yeah, yeah, it's so funny. But like- No, I think it was sincerity. If... By the way, if it- Yeah...
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if it came from a place of passive aggression, game over for me. I, you know, I think the, back to what you were saying, Sabrina, when I think we show up with sincerity to do the right thing,
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that is a game changer, right? That, the, we, we feel it.
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Even if we don't say the perfect words, even if we feel awkward, I feel like that true intention, um, that prevails, and I think that's incumbent upon all of us, uh, you know, whether we're a leader, uh, you know, an employee, whatever level we are, just to say, "Okay, let me check my intention."
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Because if my- Yep... intention's good, then good results are gonna emerge. And, and be- Have you-... willing to have the hard conversations as needed. Yeah.
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And- And as a parent, it's so funny how many times as, we're all parents here on this call. You know it. You know it.
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So, uh, Sabrina, I have a almost 19-year-old, a 16-year-old, and a 5-year-old, so it's just wild differences in these experiences, and my 16-year-old is, like, an elite high school baseball player, and I was not an athlete.
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The things that I've learned for myself through giving him advice, I've, like, grown up so much. For instance, having a really bad- I love it... coach, okay? He has a coach that makes him, you know, whatever.
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"He's always benching me," or, "I'm... He makes me do whatever. He does this," and instead of getting wrapped up in that thought process with him, I'll go, "Okay.
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Right now let's just talk about something you might be doing that might be causing you to be benched. Like, what might it be? Are you showing up late? Have you been having maybe even a low-key attitude?
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Are other people cleaning up balls and you're farting around?" Like, going through the list and being like, "I'm not saying you should be treated badly, but let's just figure out what you can control." Yeah.
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What does a star athlete act like? Does he go and, like, kick a rock across the infield when he's pissed about something, or does he suck it up and get through the game and play even better when he's mad?
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Like, and then I'm like, oh my gosh, this is such an amazing message for me, too. You're like, "Can I give my own advice? Can I take my own advice, please?" Yeah. [laughs] You play with the coach that you got. Yeah.
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You know what I mean? And, like, yeah, you can change teams. Play the hand you're dealt. You play the hand you're dealt. Yeah, yeah.
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You can change teams next season, all right, or you can power through and see if that c- coach gets fired, or learn your stuffAnd step up. Yeah, and what you're really doing is you're having great conversations.
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You know, when I talk to my people, and they, they have someone that they're working with, and they call me and ask me for help, and as I'm coaching them, I'm listening to my own words and, and I'm thinking, "Okay, I can apply that to this relationship- Mm-hmm.
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Yeah... that I'm in- It's tumbling... so that I can..." Yeah.
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And that, and that's just a self-aware leader or coach that is, like, using words to, to help fuel them in different relationships, which is really, really powerful.
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That's, I think that's the whole point of life, actually. That's it. So that we can push forward instead of... And that's why I don't like the victim mentality or that victim- Mm... mindset because it's so self-centered.
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It's so inward. Mm-hmm. It's me, me, me, me, me. It's this, this, this. Instead of you pushing out greatness, you're just so engulfed in yourself, and it's like- It's so disempowering too. Like- Yeah, 100%...
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when you're stuck with what you think of as a bad boss or a bad coworker or whatever, if you can focus on, "What's my job here? What do I- Yeah... I need to do next? How will I do the right thing?
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How do I act like the CEO, if that's the job I want? How do I act like the star baseball player or the whatever?" Yeah. That's empowering. Yeah. It gives you something to do.
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If you wanted to ruin someone, like, if you wanted to take someone's life and say, "Let me destroy you," this is what you would do. You'd say, "Be a victim." Like, you would just- Yeah...
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literally say that to them, and that would happen. Poor you. Right. Always, uh, y- yeah, always sort of put them kind of, uh, put, like you say, kind of- Everyone's against you Mm-hmm Nothing is working for you. Mm-hmm.
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Like, everything is conspiring against you, and it's like- Mm-hmm... well, that doesn't sound very good. So then- Yeah... what happens to that person is why would you try?
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Why would you even, like, push or put any effort into anything? You know? Y- you just wouldn't. And then slowly it starts to take, uh, a hit on your spirit, and that's not good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love this. I love...
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Eh, Sabrina, you are awesome. I love you. I wanna meet you in person. Thank you. Give you a big, uh- Ah... hug and high five. Okay, so I wanna go back.
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You and I were chatting earlier, and you said something that, that, you know, you said, you know, you were using the word shock before. It was kinda shocking because it was so honest. So- Mm-hmm...
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you mentioned before that you were immature and selfish. Those are hard things to say about oneself. Talk to me about that experience and, and just a little prompt if you're like, "Wait, what?"
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Uh, y- you talked about that in reference to when you had children, and I think it, you were maybe referring to some of the estrangement you had from your family. So what, what happened?
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How did you go from selfish and immature to, you know, the ninja warrior? Yeah, so, you know, with my parents, um, when I was 19, uh, my father and myself, we had a very bad conversation.
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And he said, "I'm gonna cut you off." I'm... You know, I lived under my parents' rule. My father was so strict. Um, it was very fear-based, and it was all about, like, we are disciplined, uh, girls.
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We have to do things, and everything has to be in order. And, uh, what happened when I was 19, he just pulled the rug from underneath me and just left me and I, and said, like, "I'm not supporting you.
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I'm not, I'm not helping you with anything." And he said, "I'm gonna cut your wings off." And it was, uh- Ooh... scary- Snips... 'cause I was, um, yeah, I was going, uh, to university, and I didn't have...
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Like, I had to pay my way through school, so I was working full time, going to school full time. Um, so it was really, really scary for me. Um, but, you know, we didn't talk for a very long time.
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I went through all of university. I graduated. I ended up moving from Canada to the United States in that time period. I started, um, a career in insurance.
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My goal was to be a medical doctor, but I couldn't because of no money. So I got recruited by an insurance company. Mm. Did very well.
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And it wasn't until I had, you know, I had children, where I started really reflecting on all the things that parents do for us. Yeah.
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Like, where we make decisions based upon one conversation, and we let that one conversation determine the fate of that entire relationship.
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And I, I was like, I remember changing my child's diapers and thinking to myself, like, "This is so selfish of me." Like, to, to not have my parents see their grandchildren- Right...
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and to not have them in their life and to be, like, this kind of person. And, you know, I, I am, I'm a very religious person. I'm b- I'm, like, God is a huge part of, of my life.
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And I, I would think, like, "This is not what God wants me to do." Like, maybe- Sure...
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I had to have that moment of isolation to get myself on my feet and to have that courage to know that I did that, but, like, this isn't good forever. This is not right.
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And so I started to see, like, I can continue to be selfish, and I can continue to be immature, or I can grow up, and I can repair that relationship. Yeah.
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And I can reach out to my parents and, and say, like, you know, uh, "I, I want to have a relationship with you. If you're, if you've evolved, and I've evolved, why can't we come together from a different place?"
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You know, when I see people in relationships today, um, it's just so easy to stop talking to people, and I think that's a very, very shameful way [laughs] to be. Um, and I'm- Mm...
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I'm, I'm saying this shameful word because I know 'cause I did it. And, and I, I didn't- You did... I didn't want that shame on me anymore. God, good for you. And I, I do, I... Yeah, I just wanted to be...
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I wanted to make my creator proud, that I grew, that I evolved, and I wanted to repair that relationship.
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Um, and, and I know it's notLike, every relationship has its different nuances, but never let, like, a conversation dictate the foreverness of a relationship.
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And I think we're so extreme in today's world where we can't go back and say, like, "Okay, well this person did a thousand good things for me, then they said one bad thing," and you're just like, "I'm done." Mm-hmm.
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Uh, that is immature. So then- Oh my God. G- God bless you...
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but, but like, I think we would all agree that there are circumstances where a parent will, like you're saying, it's not just one time, like continually bringing really bad energy, maybe even being emotionally abusive.
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In that circumstance, that seems like it has to be different. Like, you can make maybe a more extreme- Yeah... decision. I think time and space is incredibly important when people are finding themselves.
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Because, you know, the, the benefit of that period of isolation for me is that I didn't have multiple voices rolling in my head, so I could just focus on work and get really good and concentrate.
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So this is why I don't hold any negative feelings, and I'm grateful for the way everything played out.
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But I feel like I can go back and be grateful because it's repaired, because I got to that place where I said- Yeah... like, "This doesn't have to continue. It doesn't have to be forever like this."
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And I think what a lot of people do today is they're just like, "I'm never gonna talk to you again." I wouldn't- Yeah... one of the things that I learned in my, in my time in my life is never say never. Never say never.
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[laughs] So you mentioned- Mm-hmm... your parents also evolved. You evolved. You did the work. Were they also changing from their perspective, and did you ever get an apology for any of that?
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Yeah, my, my parents are incredible grandparents to my children, and that is the greatest gift to see, you know? And it's, it's almost like a, it's a full circle moment.
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I think that's like a circle of life that everyone should experience, because for them, it gives them life, it gives me life.
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And, and I think too what, what happens is, um, we come to terms to understand that there is no such thing as a perfect parent-child relationship. There's issues that go back and forth.
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But again, like, if you can get to that place where you're just grateful for it all, um, they are your parents. And I tell people this on my team all the time when I have people that have issues.
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I said, "You wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for your parents." [laughs] Like, "If you owe them one thing, it's your life, you know?" [laughs] So just find one thing, hang on to it, and move on.
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Instead of looking at, like, the one thing negative, just find the one thing positive. It doesn't mean you have to be best buddies and call them every day and have them over for dinner every day. Yeah.
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You can release that hate and that bitterness that's inside of you. Yeah, you can have that healthy boundary. My f- my husband talks a lot about how his father was not the best. He's passed on since and had a lot of...
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It's his story to tell. But it, he did, he was, i- his father kept proving that he was not a good force in his life. But my husband- Yeah...
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would say to you, "I would not want something bad to happen to my dad, and I hope he's feeling at peace."
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And it, he could have that boundary, "I can't let this person into my life for these various very powerful reasons," but he didn't sit there and linger on- Good...
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how his dad was a jerk and wanted him to, like, fall in a hole or anything. It was just, "Not for me. That's okay. Hope he's at peace."
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And that's perfect, 'cause he's in, he's doing it from a powerful point of view instead of, like, you know, giving that person all the power, because you're just running off of hate and anger- Yeah...
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which is what a lot of people do. Yep, so disempowering. How did you, how, how did you have that... I mean, so you were changing the diapers.
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I mean, was there anything else that was going on in your life that helped you get to that aha? Yeah. To me, it's like, what do you value, right? I, I value family. Um, I value that I want...
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You know, I grew up with all my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, and having that atmosphere around me.
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And, you know, even though I was in that career moment of my life where maybe I didn't feel like I need that, but I didn't want my children to grow up that way. I don't want them to be isolated.
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I want them to be around- Mm-hmm... family. I want them to know what family you come from and how many people love you. Um, so it's, it's a lot of things. I think as you get older too, you think about your legacy.
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I think you think about, like, "What am I, what is the meaning behind what I'm doing?" It's not just to have, like, a nice bank account. It's to make sure that I pass on good values and principles, uh, to my children.
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And then, you know, the thought of me ever not talking to my children is, like- Ah, God... horrifying to me. You can't. Like, you can't imagine. No, it's, it's humbling. It's so humbling.
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And I love, I, I just, I love your, just that, um, that just vulnerability and humility that, that you're talking about here, right?
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Because, uh, to me, the bi- one of the biggest ahas in my own life is how much strength there is in being vulnerable, how much strength there is in being open and being able to say things. 'Cause I've said it too.
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I don't meet many people like you that say, "Oh, yeah, I was being selfish. Oh, yeah, I was being immature."
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But I felt like as I've been able to say those things about myself, that I've been able to set myself free, and it's been in that vulnerability that I've become way more powerful, right? And that's, I feel like, the big,
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uh, uh, kind of, um, paradox. [earthquake] [gasps] Earthquake. Oh, is everything okay there? Oh. Oh.
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[sighs] You guys, we just had the hugest earthquake. That... A huge earthquake. Huge.
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The hugest earthquake I've ever been in.I was like, "What happened to J- [laughs] I thought there was, like, a vacuum clean- I'm so sorry. No. Yeah You guys, things fell off my shelves, like, uh, on- Oh, wow...
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uh, right, uh, right above me. Oh my g- I have to... I'm gonna pause, close my ca- I have to go check on my mom. I'll be right back. Okay. Yeah, yeah, come back. We'll keep talking. Okay. That's crazy.
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Yeah, I heard it was, like, all that background noise. I was like, "Oh, what just happened?" Like, "Did something just fall down?" Yeah, it did. Yeah. I hope everyone's okay.
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So I'm gonna ask- I was gonna ask, where, where is she? In California? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, my. Southern California, uh, earthquakes. They're real. No joke. That's, that's scary. [laughs] Yeah. A little- [laughs]...
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little scary. Yeah, totally. We'll see what, you know, what else the news has to say about that. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's get back into it. All right. So I have a burning question for you. Sure.
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You are very pro, pro women, and you are pretty tough on women. Um, you think women should learn from men. So A, do you consider yourself a feminist, and B, why do you take this approach?
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Um, because I know what worked for me, and I would never subscribe something that didn't work for me to someone else- Mm-hmm... to make a profit. And so, uh, I think that's- Mm... not right at all.
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And so for me, um, I learned from very, very strong men. Um, and so I know that business is a very masculine space. And so I'm not about, like, gender. I'm not about, like, male, female. I'm not about color. Mm-hmm.
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I'm not about age. I, I look at it- Mm... from the most unbiased point of view. Yeah. When I look at someone, I look through them and say- Yeah...
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"Get me to the core of who you are, and let me see if we can align in our principles and our values. And if we can-" Yeah... "then we can hang." Yeah.
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"If not, I don't care if you're an alien or if you're, like, a man or a woman or whatever you are." Mm-hmm. "I want nothing to do with you." So- Mm-hmm... I don't, I don't play favorites at all. I, I- Yeah. Mm...
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I really do not subscribe to that. At the same time, I understand that, you know, when you look at someone, as human beings, we have a tendency to gravitate towards what is like us. And so in the- Mm-hmm...
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business world, 'cause it's very male-dominated, they're more comfortable working with other men and males because it's just more comfortable for them. And so I'm- Mm-hmm...
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very grateful that I have been surrounded by males that never were like that. They didn't- Mm-hmm... make me, um, do that.
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And you know what's so funny about life, and this is why I love my father so much, because we were raised... You know, my, my parents had four girls, right? You're right.
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Um, we were raised so tough, and there wasn't a, a, a male that we were, you know, competing with. So my father didn't have a favorite- Right... that was a guy, so that was never in my head, and that- Mm...
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seed never got planted for me. It was about who was the best. Mm-hmm. And it was about, like, who can perform the best, who can, you know, do the best, who can deliver the goods. And so for, for me- Me-...
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that's how I look at business. Now, when, when... For, for women, if you, um, if you make those claims with me, I don't like that because when I say...
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Like, if someone says, like, "I'm a woman, I should be treated differently," um, I, I don't subscribe to that. I think that- Mm-hmm...
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that's not how you really grow your best self, if you're given favoritism because of your age or gender or, or, or that. That's- Yeah... my personal view because nobody did that for me, and it- Mm-hmm... made me strong.
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Mm-hmm. What would be an example of someone, like, wanting that kind of special treatment? Like, I'm just trying to get a picture in my head.
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Yeah, so, um, I think what's really important is, um, especially when you're building cultures for teams, is to just set a tone like it's not even acceptable so then those things don't arise. So I don't- Mm-hmm...
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get a lot of that that even comes around me. Yeah. Yeah.
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But, um, you know, if someone starts talking and, you know, they, uh, they, they say things like, "Well, I'm a female, I'm going through different things than you are," like, that language, um- Yeah...
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you know, is, is something that it, it- It's divisive in your mind. Yes. 100%. Yeah. So then do you think that male leaders then can learn from women as well?
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Like, if we're learning from men and how they succeeded, it seems like, to me, there's also a way in which men can look at the ways in which women have succeeded when we've had opportunities in whatever w- areas where we dominate and learn from us.
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So, so this is the thing, right? Um, creation happens with male and female. If you want your- Yeah... business to do good- Yeah. Yeah... you have to have the ability to go to both, and that's why- Mm-hmm...
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I say we're not equal. We're different. And if you... Like, if...
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What I tell people that are female is that if you can learn how to play in a masculine space and still have feminine qualities about you, you are dangerous. Mm-hmm. You are- Yeah... so good.
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And it's like you don't have to lose yourself and become masculine and forget your femininity.
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The same way, like, a, a, a, a heavy male presence, if you brought a female around, she could see things that you can't see, 'cause female intuition is very different than male intuition.
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And so if you can incorporate that into your business, then what you're gonna do is you're gonna grow your business. You're gonna actually create things that you couldn't have created if it was just all men in there.
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And it's scary for people. You know, it's scary for people to think like this, like, what is, what, what people see different. But what I've also learned too is that you can, you can change your brain.
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I say to people, like- Yeah...
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you don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain.So I, I learn how to rewire my brain all the time, and I can, I can go into different spaces and see from different perspectives all the time.
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I don't get wrapped up in, like, getting myself in a box, and then I'm so stubborn that I can't see another perspective. That's bad business. How do you rewire your brain? What, what is a practical, uh, approach to that?
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So i- if I wanna rewire for masculine strength, I have to talk to strong, masculine people. Right. If I wanna rewire and develop my softer side, I have to talk to people that have that skill set. Oh, uh-huh.
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And then what happens is you're gonna start to see that you morph. And this is why when I say I'm whole, I feel whole because I have both of those capabilities now.
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It doesn't happen overnight, but if it's something that you're aware of, you can, you can create that for yourself, and then you, you see both sides instead of only seeing one side, which is how a lot of people operate.
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Okay, so I wanna jump in. I promised at the beginning of the show, there were some...
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I mean, I loved so much of your book, but there were a handful of bits that I excerpted that I wanna read just because they're so good. And then I have a, I, I, I, I do have another, uh, burning question.
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So you say these times of great hardship and suffering come into our lives to serve us. The level of pain and suffering will differ from person to person, but it, it exists for all of us. Embrace it, you say.
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When you embrace it, you go through a metamorphosis. This deep and profound change that you will endure will transform you. You go on to say, "Growth doesn't happen in good times.
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Growth happens in the moments of life that challenge and push us. These moments forge a new you. They chisel out your character by the decision you make to keep going and keep growing or stop
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and disintegrate into victimhood. We must choose to do the work that most won't do, so we can get to a place where most can't." Almost done here.
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"Success requires that you step out of this cage of ordinary and walk into the world of driving yourself to the edge of what you really can become.
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In order to get there, you have to push yourself to the very edge, a place where very few people are willing to go." I'm like, whoa, sister, those are some, like, inspiring words and written with so much heart.
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And in talking to you and getting to know you and going, you know, and seeing that metamorphosis that you allowed is, it is inspiring to me.
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And so, you know, mostly I wanna thank you for that because, you know, back to this conversation of, of victimhood and how easy it is to be self-centered and, and me, me, me, and blame, blame, blame, I just love these beautiful words that you've written because the, the truth is, we all have more power than we realize.
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And I, I guess I'm wondering why... I mean, why do you feel like you got this memo so, um, just so powerfully and so many other people don't get the memo?
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And then you, you know, you've done something with it, talking about going to places where few others will go, right? 'Cause it's scary in those places.
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So why, why do you think you, you know, you've, you've been able to answer the call like you have? Um, because I've, I've been in scary situations, you know, where- Yeah...
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you know, when, when you're young, and you're the most vulnerable, and you're in a scary situation, and you have to stand up and face a giant, um, that plants a seed inside of you- Mm-hmm...
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where you start to realize, it's just like when you do hard things. Um- Yes... you start to realize like, "Oh, I can do this." It's, it's- Mm-hmm... you know, and then you do it again.
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And then it becomes easier and easier. And so- Right, right... that's what we do when we are stepping out of the cage, which is very comfortable for us. Mm-hmm.
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But, like, for, for me right now, uh, what I do, and I'm constantly pushing myself to do hard and difficult things because whenever something feels scary to me, I've trained myself to attack it, so it doesn't- Mm-hmm...
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attack me. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, that is not easy, um, but it gets easier. And so what you have to keep on doing is, is, is pushing yourself. And if you look at people that do just
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amazing things, they've, they've encountered a lot of hardship. Yeah. And, um, you know, you don't wish hardship on people, and this is something I grapple with a lot as a mom.
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I look at my kids, and I'm just like, "How do I create someone who's gonna have the spirit of an overcomer when you don't really have a lot to overcome?" [laughs] Right. So... Oh, yeah. We, we- Yeah...
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we can relate to that.
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On the one hand, we, you know, Joanne and I describe ourselves as overachievers, and yet we're trying to, in a way, protect our kids from the grief and heartache that we've experienced, and yet we also know...
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You know, you used the word forge. Oh my God, that, I literally said to a, a friend last night, I'm doing a bunch of social media stuff. It is fricking humbling.
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[laughs] I'm like, oh my God, I l- look like such a du- ding-dong. And I said, "I'm being forged," right? Yeah. And I'm up for it, right? And I could just say, you know- Yeah... "Screw this. It's, it's uncomfortable.
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I don't have time for it." But the exact word of, of s- I am choosing to be forged.
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Yes, I have a lot to share, and I'm eager to do so, but like you, I'm motivated to say, "Put me in that freaking forge because I know I'm gonna come out the other side stronger," right? And, but it's- And, and I'll-...
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definite- I'll tell you-... by definition, uncomfortable, yeah. With kids, and I think about this all the time 'cause I feel like my husband and I have been successful because we had to have so much grit to succeed.
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Mm-hmm. Like, we had to dig in. We did have to push down the hard things for a long time and then deal with them later. And our kids are securely attached and- Oh... very well-loved and- Totally...
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have a lovely car to drive when they turn... Like, what a life.
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But I will tell you, watching my kids grow up, that secure attachmentI believe makes them so strong, and they do find things they have to overcome, and it's the things that you weren't necessarily expecting.
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Like, I'm talking about my son playing baseball. Right. Are these the huge things we dealt with? No, but if you've raised them right, they can develop the grit without the trauma. Oh, I hope so. If that makes sense.
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That, yeah, that's the goal, right? I mean, it's, it's all the good stuff and still having that, that strong work ethic and so forth. Okay, last burning question. If you, if you challenge them to. That's what I'm saying.
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Don't let them quit the baseball team. Don't let them accept their D as a passable grade. Don't... You have to be the challenge that encourages them to get that, to be forged, you know? Yeah.
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But it doesn't have to come with trauma. I, I firmly believe it, so. I, I believe that. Let's hope so. [laughs] And, and thanks for the reminder, 'cause every now and then I wonder about that. Okay.
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I was really surprised to see this. You say, "A few years back, I decided to hire the Navy SEAL, David Goggins, to train me to handle more, to sharpen my mind like never before.
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What I didn't know was how much I would grow spiritually as a result of our work."
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You go on to say, "The very things we are looking to avoid are the very things that we need to confront to go to the next level of our lives." What... How did you get the idea of, of hiring a Navy SEAL?
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I need to know everything about this in, like, 12 seconds. [laughs] And he's amazing. Oh, okay. He's amazing. Well, I mean, tell me everything. So- Okay, you have more than 12 seconds. [laughs] Yeah.
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What, what's amazing about people is, you know, when you see that they have, like, this persona on media, and they're a certain type, um, but when you meet them in real life, they're even better. Oh, wow.
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And that's what, uh, David Goggins is. He's even better in real life, and I was blessed to be able to have some really amazing conversations with him, and what he helped me to become was a better person. Ooh.
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Um, and what I wanted was I wanted to get more tough. Like, I was...
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I just had, um, my second child, and I was like, "Okay, I'm in this mom space," and I'm like, "Let me hire someone who can toughen me up, and, like, go so I can go back and kick some more ass, and, like- Yeah...
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you know, win and keep on getting, getting more, um, you know, driving the business forward."
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And what I found was, like, that's what makes Navy SEALs the incredible human beings that they are is that they're just very, very good in many places in their life, and they're, they're whole people also. Mm-hmm.
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So spiritually, they're on point. Relationally, they're on point. They're mentally tough. They're physically perfection in, in terms of, like, pushing their bodies beyond what most people can, can endure.
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And so what that was able to do for me was just to make me understand, you know, there's different areas in my life that I have to work on, and he brought that to the surface.
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Instead of me just being a good businessperson, I'm a better businessperson when I am a better mom. I'm a better businessperson when I am a better person overall. And so it wasn't about getting more tough.
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It was about getting better as a human being, and that's what he helped me to discover.
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And I've, I've had some great conversations with many Navy SEALs, and I will say that they are s- they are the best human beings walking on planet Earth. I can say that- Wow... with certainty. Oh, my God.
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That is, that is cool. Back to David for one sec. Is there one thing he said... I mean, I'm getting kinda generally that he, you know, he helped maybe pull something out of you.
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But it, was there one thing he said or one a-ha that it's like, oh, like an, an unexpected...
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'Cause it sounded like even in reading your book, it was, like, like the appra- like, maybe you were expecting to do a lot of pushups.
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[laughs] And his, it sounded like the approach was more, was just different, like maybe, maybe more, more of a gentle approach. I mean, so, like, the gentle approach to getting tough. Okay, that's ironic.
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So was there one thing- He's not gentle. No, he's not gentle. Okay. Not, not gentle. Okay. They, they exist in absolute truth. Oh. Um, so they exist- Okay, absolute truth... and you wanna, like...
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If, if I could summarize how Navy SEALs are, they exist in truth and light, where they bring light into the darkness, but they're not afraid to walk in the dark, and those are special people.
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And I feel like I could relate to him so much because my childhood allowed me to exist in the dark, where I didn't get scared, but I knew I had to walk back to the light. Mm.
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And so a lot of people get trapped by the dark, and then they- Yeah... the dark overtakes them. But when you can fight the dark, and the only way to fight the dark is with light- Mm-hmm...
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um, then what happens is you become a better person. You know, some of the things- He-...
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that I would say that he helped to build my confidence because it was, it was really nice to hear him say really good things about me, and he- Mm...
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he would say, like, he would build me up a certain way, but it wasn't in a, in a, in a way where people are just blowing smoke up your ass type of thing. Right. No, that doesn't work, especially with a lady like you.
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That would never work. No. You'd be like, "All right, dude. You're out, you're out." No, no. He, like, if he ever said something, it was so accurate. It was so- Okay...
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on point, and then you, like, hang on to those things, and what- Yeah, yeah... it taught me was that everybody needs, like, some words of reassurance that like- Yeah. Oh... okay, you are doing the right thing.
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You are walking on the right path. We don't need, like, a f- a story or a paragraph or a love letter, but we just need some, like, we also need, like, a, a little bit of, of, of assurance to say, like- Yeah...
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"You're, you're on the right path. You're doing the right things." And I thought- Well, and coming from the right person, right? Yes. It means a lot coming from the right person. I respect. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right.
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That you respect. That is an amazing way to end on. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, Sabrina. You are amazing. Thank you for being on our show.I hope to meet you in person. Well, thank you for having me. Oh my God.
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It was a pleasure. Now I, I've got a, I've got a child who's just jumping in and trying to hug me. All right. Excuse me. Hello. How are you? Andrea's kids are so cute.
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We, we, we love the photo bomber- Look at that cutie... the, the video bombers, the podcast bombers. All right. Cute hug. How old is your son? 11. He's 11. Oh, nice.
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[laughs] He reminds me, I have a, I have a 10-year-old, so that's what that reminded me of. [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. I love that age. You know that energy, right? Yeah. It, it's, it is so sweet. It's so fun.
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They don't care if you're working. They're like- No. Nope... "I don't care." Oh, no. I'm like, "Hey, hold on, hold on." And he's like, you know- Nope... "Video bomb, pod bomb." [laughs] Yeah. Yep.
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We love it here, though. Yeah. It's funny. Don't worry. No, totally. All right. Sabrina, thank you again, and I look forward to, I hope, meeting you and having you back on our show.
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We really appreciate the conversation and all your great work. Okay. Thank you. [clapping] [cheering] Oh my gosh. How cool is she? I know.
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It's like, I'm, I'm sure people are like, "Why, why do you have somebody who runs an insurance business on your show?"
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But her, her book is so compelling, and I just, I love her life stories and how real and authentic and hardcore she is. She's amazing. Sure.
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But before we talk about Sabrina and our best takeaways, woo, Joanna, are you okay? That was a fricking- Yes. Yeah... like, how big of an earthquake was that just now? Like a real earthquake. I don't know.
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I should have checked. It... No, it, it was the biggest earthquake I've ever been in. It went on for so long, and I had to- Oh my gosh... take a break from recording to go get my mom's dog because- Oh my gosh...
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it, she was alone next door. So she's on my lap now, and we're all fine, and my children have texted me, and everybody's okay. [laughs] Oh, phew. Okay. Well, I, I am glad you're okay. Geez.
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That was crazy to see you, like, dive under your desk. Brian, you might have to look... Oh, yeah, and I've never done that. Brian, you might have to look up, uh, how big that earthquake was because it really felt big.
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Phew. Anyway. Yeah. All right. Well, was that- No, no, you literally, like, dove under the desk. I was like, "Oh my God." [laughs] Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh, man. Well, I'm glad you're okay. Thank you. Okay.
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So, uh, rapid fire, quick takeaways. What is the number one thing, Joanna, you're gonna take away from, um, our great conversation with Sabrina?
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I really liked that she talked about victim mentality without making it feel like you're not allowed to talk about what hurt you. Right. The combination of saying, "This is a thing that was a challenge for me.
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This is a thing that was hard. This is a thing I'm still struggling against," and finding the empowerment and the path to success and, and the way out, like she said, moving toward the light.
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I worry a lot about talking negatively about victim mentality, that someone's gonna get... Just push it away. But like she was saying- Right... "No, you have to, you have to deal with it." Mm-hmm.
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And that's how you really find the empowerment. So I really liked that a lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. Uh, Brian, what about you? I mean, this one, this was an easy one for me.
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The difference between commanding and demanding, like, that was huge. Oh. Na, na, na, na.
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Yeah, like, 'cause the idea of commanding is, like, being a good leader and, like, like, you know, even the, the classic, like, the best kings are the ones that were on the battlefield with their, uh, troops, right? Mm.
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Right. Like, like, that's a commander, versus demanding is like, "No, no, no, you go do the fight." Like- Right... there is such an inherent, like, difference, and it's so, like...
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I don't know, I've just never seen it put so succinctly of, like, in one sentence- Right... why are some people a good leader and why are some people not when they ask for a task? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
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And it's, it like... I don't know. That sentence, the difference between commanding and demanding, that's gonna be stuck in my brain forever. That, we're gonna, we're gonna see a meme.
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That might be a bumper sticker on your bike. [laughs] Um, you guys wanna know why that earthquake w- that... You guys wanna know why that earthquake was so strong? Yeah. It was a 4.6 magnitude in Malibu. [laughs] Whoa.
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Wow. So it was in your neighborhood. Literally, yeah. That w- That's wild... that, that, that was a big one. [laughs] Felt all the way in Laguna Beach. That- Well, definitely check on your- That is awesome...
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check on your family after this. I mean, like- Yeah... make sure everyone's okay. [laughs] Go check on the kitty cats, everybody. Your neighbors. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Oh. Woo. Okay.
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Well, I think probably I'm gonna come back to one of the, the... I'm gonna, uh, squeeze two in there.
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I liked how she said she's reading a book or just read a book on poker players and that only 12% of the outcome of the game had to deal, had to do with the cards you were dealt, right? Back to the victim things. Yes.
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Right? It's like, you know, I, I feel like so often we blame our circumstances, and the truth is there's so much more than our circumstances, than the cards we're dealt.
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And I think there's just so much, um, hurt and resentment and estrangement for so many people with their parents, and I just love how she said she had the best parents for her. And she made it pretty clear- Mm...
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and even in reading the book, she was, I think she was a little softer on our call. The, the book is, it's hard to read. It's like, ooh.
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And, um, and so when I think about how she has taken those, um, hardships and transformed them into gratitude and has been able to become that b- that best whole version of herself. I also loved how she said,
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you know, "You never get done healing, but I'm whole." I was like, "Ooh, I like that. I like that." So... Okay, uh, this was yet another amazing episode of Open Relationships Transforming Together.
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Thank you so much for tuning in. If you love our show, please share it. Please subscribe. Uh, uh, please write to us. Tell us what you love. Give us your feedback. Um, we love your advice.
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Our email is openrelationships@yourtango.com. You can find us on iHeart, YouTube, Spotify, Audible, all the places where you get podcasts. And we sincerely are doing this show to help and serve you.
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So we would love your feedback and are super grateful for the, the follows, the likes, the comments. We'll take it all. [clapping] [cheering] Thank you.
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