Making Tech More Accessible with Crystal Preston-Watson

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Open-source is really important for—especially when it

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comes to assistive technology, and digital accessibility.

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Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out the podcast about

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building, running, and maintaining software and systems.

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Managing role-based access control for Kubernetes isn’t the

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easiest thing in the world, especially as you have more clusters,

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and more users, and more services that want to use Kubernetes.

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OpenUnison helps solve those problems by bringing

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single-sign on to your Kubernetes clusters.

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This extends Active Directory, Okta, Azure AD and other sources as

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your centralized user management for your Kubernetes access control.

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You can forget managing all those YAML files to give someone access

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to the cluster, and centrally manage all of their access in one place.

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This extends to services inside the cluster

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like Grafana, Argo CD and Argo Workflows.

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OpenUnison is a great open-source project, but relying

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on open-source without any support for something as

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critical as access management may not be the best option.

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Tremolo Security offers support for OpenUnison

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and other features around identity and security.

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Tremolo provides open-source and commercial support for OpenUnison

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in all of your Kubernetes clusters, whether in the cloud or on-prem.

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So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes.

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You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo.

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That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

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Welcome to F18T, or as you’d like to call

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it, Fork Around and Find Out, generally.

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I realized today that your name is also 18 numbers in between.

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So, C18N lines up perfectly with F18T.

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Autumn is looking at me as, like, the most—

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No.

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Craziest person in the world right now.

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[laugh]

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.
This is only second to the time when he showed

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up bald and scared this [BLEEP] out of me, okay

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[
laugh]

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?
For anyone that does not know, this is called a numeronym, all right?

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Numeronyms are used pretty commonly throughout—especially

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technology—where you take the middle letters of a word and

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you make a number, however many letters are in between.

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So, like, accessibility, right?

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That is A11Y.

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That is the very com—because people are freaking lazy, and they

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will not type it out, and so you do A11—like, Kubernetes, K8S.

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There are eight letters between the K and the S.

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Kubernetes is a numeronym, K8S for that.

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Internationalization, I18N.

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Observability, all these words they have numeronym representations.

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And I wanted to start off with that because Crystal is going to talk

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to us about accessibility and software, and I am super excited for it.

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Welcome to the show.

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Yay.

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Welcome.

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Thank you for— [laugh] having me.

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I did not know that [unintelligible] 18 between us [laugh]

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.
I wrote it out on my

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little piece of paper right here, and I counted the letters.

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I made sure.

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And so—

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That was news to me.

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Autumn, you’re still looking at me like [laugh] I am the craziest person [laugh]

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.
Look, I’m

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never sure if we’re going to get a dad joke, if we’ve gone down the

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neuro-spicy rabbit hole of a book, or if it’s like math majorness.

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Like, it just you never know what you’re going to get with Justin, okay?

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It’s just spelling today,

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and I can’t spell in my head, so I had to write it out.

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Don’t lie.

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That’s

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spelling and math.

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You put the numbers in everything.

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This is algebra.

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This is—

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I have to say, a lot of people use the—you know, especially

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for accessibility because when you’re hashtagging

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and like that, takes up a lot of, you know, valuable—

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Yeah,

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character counts we got to—

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Yeah, so I try to balance it out with, I’ll use

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accessibility the first time, and then I’m using A11Y.

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I know it makes some people mad, but I’m like, I need more.

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I have a lot to say [laugh]

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.
And

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like, that has been ingrained in me in every documentation ever written.

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Like, spell out the thing first and then use the acronym, right?

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And, like, you can do that—

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I’m glad it’s ingrained

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in you because the amount of people that throw around acronyms

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pretending like we’re all supposed to know what they’re talking about.

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I

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mean, in written context.

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If I’m writing a blog post or a documentation, something like

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that, the first time, I’m going to say—even at AWS, right?

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Like, AWS, you had to spell out Amazon Web Services the

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first time in official blog posts, and then you could

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say AWS, like, it was not allowed in a blog post or docs.

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I worked there for four years, and I still got blogs

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in review, and I haven’t worked there for two [laugh]

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.
[laugh]

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They’re never getting out, y’all [laugh]

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.
I once freelanced for a place, and then I left for, like, a year, and came

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back, and I got assigned tickets that I had put in a year before [laugh]

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.
[laugh]

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.
But they also didn’t realize I had left; they thought I was—

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Lazy [laugh]

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?
Just changed floors.

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Tell me somebody came back for a stupid edit, and

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was like, “Can you move the ‘the’ in this sentence?”

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When I left

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Disney, the last thing I did was, I was writing a blog post, and they wouldn’t

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let it go out because I left before it was, like, going to be published.

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And so, they changed all the author names and, like,

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put a little, like, tag line at the bottom, like, “This

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blog post had, like, credit to Justin,” or whatever.

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It’s like, no longer works here.

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Doesn’t that make you mad though

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because, like, in any big corporation, that one blog takes six to eight months

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of three people sitting on it, sending it back and forth, giving you the dumbest

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edits that don’t matter, and then they’ll be, like, “Oh well, like, you worked

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on this for two years, but goodbye.” Like, I was working there while you did it.

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It’s okay.

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They paid you.

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It’s fine.

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That’s my solace for everything [laugh]

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.
Crystal, so how did you get into focusing on accessibility in software?

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Why is that important?

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I want to just start there.

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Let’s go there.

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We have lots of other places to go.

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I got so much, like, rabbit-hole stuff that I’m going to talk about.

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We’re about to get so off topic, so let’s go there

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first.

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Well, to do a very shortened, around, like, ten

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years ago, one I started to really lose my vision.

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I’ve always had one [laugh] functional eye, but you know,

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my other eye, my left eye, kind of showed up and showed out.

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And it’s like, hey, you can still do everything.

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I’ll do everything that your right eye can’t do but then about ten

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years ago, I noticed I started to lose my, you know, my vision wasn’t,

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you know, I was getting glasses, and I’m like, that’s not working.

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Maybe it’s because I went to Lens Crafters and [laugh] the classes for $15.

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Maybe it’s that—come to find out I, you know, ended up

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getting—I have a visual impairment [laugh] that came about.

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And in conjunction with that, I was working

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as—I started out as a front-end developer.

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Originally, I worked in journalism, usually in

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the interactive departments of a few newspapers.

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And then I kind of—you know, journalism around 2009, 2010 I worked at a paper

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that had been open for 149 years, and closed right before its 150th year.

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And I’m like, I don’t know if this continuing on in journalism is probably good.

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So, I switched over to front-end development, which

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makes all the times that I skipped and dropped out of

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college to learn how to code and stuff, like, worth it.

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So, then I was doing front-end development, kind of, did

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it a little bit backwards and moved into quality assurance

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because I was like, this is kind of like journalism.

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Like I really, like, kind of discovering

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why something is not functioning correctly.

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So, I was doing that, and one day I was working for a company,

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and I got a ticket that said, test JAWS for this application.

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And I did not know what JAWS was, you know?

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I was, you know—overall, I had a, you know, kind of a little bit of familiarity

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with, you know, accessibility tools were, but not, like, the actual individuals.

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I didn’t have that much knowledge.

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And I’m like, what does that mean?

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So, after kind of trying to, one, figure out—and JAWS as

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a screen reader, just to let you know—and I would do the

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whole, like, it stands for… this because I completely forget.

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So, maybe can put a little asterisk of JAWS stands through

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this; Crystal forgot this while she was talking [laugh]

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.
That happens to me all the time.

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Even though she deals with

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the stuff every day, she forgot the acronym.

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Even the acronyms

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we absolutely know what they are, we do not remember all the time.

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That’s why I made Justin stop giving me acronym tests

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because I was like, “Justin… like, I know what it does.

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I don’t know why it’s named this.”

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Wait for this game for this month because it’s an acronym test.

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It’s a fun one.

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Do you see what I have to put up with, okay?

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Do you—like—I just—it’s ‘Job Access With Speech.’

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Yes, exactly.

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I deal with so many acronyms, like, throughout the day.

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I’m just, like, I all, I know, is I know what it does, and [laugh]

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—
I

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don’t even know how people

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got through life before Google, okay?

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Like, the amount of things I have to Google for acronyms between working in

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tech and being on dating apps, I’m always just, like, what are we talking

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about?

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[laugh]

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.
Like, are y’all just making up words at this point [laugh]

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?
I want to make

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a Venn diagram of that.

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I was on dating apps and I didn’t know what non—it

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took me a while to figure out non-ethical monogamy.

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Girl.

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They got, like, five names for that one thing, and I’m

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like,

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just says ‘wants to do everyone.’

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[laugh]

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.
The struggle out here is real [laugh]

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. See?

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We’re right here.

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You understand me.

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Okay, also, so did you—were you writing when you were a journalist?

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I kind of started out doing freelance.

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I worked for an alternative weekly here in Denver called Westword.

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And so, I was doing—I contributed a lot to the calendar section.

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So, it’s like, “Oh, go to this club or this band.”

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And then eventually I became the web editor.

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I was fired because it was one of those things of,

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like, your first really big-person job, and I’m like,

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I can’t really cry in the cubicle and keep [laugh] your

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job.

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Unless you work at Amazon.

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You can definitely cry [laugh]

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.
[laugh]

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I’ve got too much coffee this morning.

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Who let me on this show?

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[laugh]

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.
That was

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spicy.

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Oh,

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my gosh.

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[laugh]

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.
I

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can’t breathe.

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That one—to all of our ex-AWS colleagues out there, you know.

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But I guess not at newspapers, huh?

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They don’t like that.

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As a web editor, you’re not allowed to.

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The funny thing is, is that I was in conflict because some of the

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higher-ups, because they had moved from WordPress to Movable Type.

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And I was like, “Why did you do that?” I don’t know why because I was like,

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“Well, if you want your reporters to actually contribute to online”—because

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this was, like, back in 2007, and so you didn’t have a lot of reporters they

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were really contributing to, like, writing online, like, for blogs and stuff.

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And I was like, “Maybe we can go back to

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WordPress.” They were like, “No.” I know.

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Now, I’m like, I feel vindicated because no one—when I

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mention Movable Type, people are, like, “What is that?”

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Not just that, but I mean this, like, let’s just be real.

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The only reason Wordpress is still a thing is because they

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got everybody in a monopoly death grip of the internet.

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So, like [laugh] , Crystal is vindicated.

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Like, I’m sorry I told you the future, and then you made me cry.

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Jerk.

250
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But you made me cry in the cubicle, and I—

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The amount of women in tech, though, that situation has

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happened to where you write, they tell you’re wrong.

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You got to go cry in a cubicle, and then it’s your fault?

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Like, I’m just, like, oh, we’ve heard this story before.

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It’s our whole career.

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And

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one of the funny things, like, I was really concerned about

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accessibility, even back then, before I really learned about digital

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accessibility because I remember, in my interview for the web editor

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position, I talked about the flashing ads, and I brought a Pokémon.

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I was like, “Have you ever watched Pokémon before?” And

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I was like, you know, going through the case of how the

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episodes cause kids who have seizure disorders, health risks.

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And so, I was like, these ads are the same, and you have a

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responsibility for people who are [laugh] [unintelligible] your website.

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So, it’s funny because even when I wasn’t, like, this is, you know, digital

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accessibility, I had always been kind of concerned about that in, kind of,

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my—in throughout my roles, even though that was like me being a web editor.

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Because I’m like, well, I’m concerned about the web part of this paper, so,

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yeah.

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But I love that.

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That means you were meant for that, but you

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just didn’t know what it was called yet.

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Yes [laugh] . And then I cried, and then I eventually left, and—

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That’s because they were too

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good for that job.

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They didn’t appreciate you.

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It’s okay.

279
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[laugh]

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.
Yes.

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But when I was doing quality assurance, getting that ticket for JAWS,

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I’m like, I don’t know what this is, and ended up rejecting the ticket

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because I was like, “Hey, you can’t really ask someone who’s never

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used this software before to test this is going to be accessible.”

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You know, especially something like JAWS that it has kind of a high

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learning curve, but from that point on, I was like, you know what?

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One, I want to learn more.

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Two, I know, like, my vision is not really great,

289
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so maybe this can be something that can help me out.

290
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,870
And then from there, I really just kind of started digging into accessibility.

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And first I was just, like, okay, how do I find more about it?

292
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And there were information—it wasn’t like now where there’s more information.

293
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,160
I’m not going to say there’s, you know, a plethora of information

294
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,449
about digital accessibility, but there’s definitely more now

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00:14:23,449 --> 00:14:26,770
than when I first, kind of, started back in, like, yeah, 2014.

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And so, a lot of times I—that’s also how I started doing a lot

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of public speaking because I would find out things, and I’m like,

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I’m going to share this with everybody else in my predicament

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of, like, here’s how to get started with digital accessibility.

300
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Here are these, you know, introductory things that you should know,

301
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and then hopefully you’ll kind of be, like, me and learn more.

302
00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:52,110
And so, that’s really how I kind of got into it.

303
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,820
And the more I got into it, the more it helped me out with my visual

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impairments because I do sometimes need to use a screen reader.

305
00:15:00,970 --> 00:15:02,560
And that’s been really great.

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I actually went to the doctor, and I had the optometrists, and, you know,

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they’re like, “You haven’t been here in, like, years,” and they’re like,

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“Why?” And I was like, “Well, I didn’t need to use my prosthetic lens because

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00:15:16,869 --> 00:15:20,770
I just use a screen reader for work.” But through that, I’ve, you know, been

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able to inform people about accessibility, but also help myself as well.

311
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Probably shouldn’t done that.

312
00:15:28,469 --> 00:15:30,830
I’m—please anyone listening, don’t do that.

313
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,040
That’s super interesting, though.

314
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,860
Just the idea that, like, you can use a tool to offset,

315
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like, solving the problem or helping the problem more.

316
00:15:38,190 --> 00:15:40,840
Like, I can just work around this, which is what a lot of

317
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,960
us do is, like, this is more convenient to, like, just do it

318
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:47,270
the hard way than to try to go schedule appointments, and—

319
00:15:47,559 --> 00:15:50,400
I think that’s common with a lot of people with disabilities, like,

320
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,579
my son, when he was having a hard time with reading, he’d get Alexa

321
00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:56,589
and everything else to either talk-to-text, or to read it for him.

322
00:15:57,010 --> 00:16:00,270
But he was struggling with autism, and ADHD, and dyslexia, so

323
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it was like, it was so much work that it was easier for him

324
00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:06,900
to find ways around it than to deal—where he would have a hard

325
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,569
time writing, so he would type it, or he would talk-to-text it.

326
00:16:10,959 --> 00:16:12,930
And I was like, well, I don’t want you to not learn how

327
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:14,780
to write, and then the doctor in the school was like,

328
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:17,080
but I mean, we’re all going to type one day anyways.

329
00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:17,900
And I was like, “That’s valid.”

330
00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:19,280
You’re absolutely right.

331
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:23,165
Even though I only need one lens because my right eye is [unintelligible]

332
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,369
, I don’t need it [laugh] it’s like, I don’t need a lens for that.

333
00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:28,099
But it’s expensive.

334
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:34,540
Like, a hard lens for my left eye is around $1500, $2,000.

335
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:37,810
It’s a lot of money.

336
00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:42,169
And that’s the thing of, I realized, you know,

337
00:16:42,219 --> 00:16:45,369
I’m kind of privileged to be able to pay that.

338
00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:48,399
But it’s not to say it’s not, you know, still expensive, but there are

339
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:54,040
a lot of people who that is absolutely not affordable in any way, and

340
00:16:55,130 --> 00:17:00,630
they’ll have to find ways, too, around that, to access what they need.

341
00:17:00,710 --> 00:17:04,010
And so, even when we’re pushing, I know we’re kind of all over, but when it

342
00:17:04,010 --> 00:17:08,290
comes to, you know, accessible assistive technology, a lot of people forget,

343
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:12,560
but, you know, they’re thinking about, well, software in digital things, but

344
00:17:12,819 --> 00:17:18,119
a lot of assistive technology is also for people who have mobility issues.

345
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,520
With their hands, they can use a mouse stick or a head stick

346
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,180
where they have—like, they can strap it onto their forehead,

347
00:17:24,190 --> 00:17:29,620
and to type and do things like that because depending on what

348
00:17:29,620 --> 00:17:34,899
is needed, not everything can be solved with digital technology.

349
00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:38,230
And so, that’s something I always really try to stress to people.

350
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:40,499
It’s like, yes, we’re in the digital age.

351
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,929
We’re in the internet age, and there’s a lot of things that we can do to make

352
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:49,560
life better for people with disabilities, but also just, you know, everyone in

353
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:55,510
general, but that doesn’t mean that the digital solution is always the best.

354
00:17:55,940 --> 00:18:00,259
So, it’s funny when you’re talking to you, like, a developer

355
00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:03,230
or designer, and they’re like, kind of like, sometimes what

356
00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:06,310
you’re doing right here, that code you’re putting out, that

357
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:09,980
diagram that you have for me, maybe that’s not the best solution.

358
00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:14,879
That usually, rarely, like, happens because usually I’m dealing with actual

359
00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:20,370
components in applications, but I always, like, to make people think about

360
00:18:20,370 --> 00:18:25,740
that, kind of like, out-of-the-box, thinking about solutions for accessibility.

361
00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:28,870
Because sometimes we get to the point where we want to solve everything

362
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:31,619
with a hammer, and the hammer is not always the right thing for the job.

363
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:35,020
I think it’s super rad though, that you had so many

364
00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:38,440
different, almost like, callings to the same path with your

365
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,129
own personal, like, struggles, but it make your life better.

366
00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:42,910
But then also, you were already interested,

367
00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:45,479
in other ways, in other industries, about you.

368
00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:50,359
Like, it just shows that how valuable you are as, like, a domain expert

369
00:18:50,389 --> 00:18:53,619
in that situation because, like, look at how many different ways you

370
00:18:53,619 --> 00:18:57,010
bring value to that and you are an expert in that field, but you can

371
00:18:57,010 --> 00:18:59,650
also talk about your personal experiences, and you’re not just somebody

372
00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:02,620
who rolled up and decided it was cool, and didn’t really do the work.

373
00:19:02,670 --> 00:19:05,499
But also, it’s so cool that you’re actually really passionate

374
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:07,780
about it, and you want to share the information because a lot

375
00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:10,289
of times just doing it, to do it, isn’t the same, you know?

376
00:19:10,299 --> 00:19:11,539
So, that’s really cool that you’ve—

377
00:19:11,609 --> 00:19:14,130
Some of the most welcoming communities I’ve ever

378
00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:16,930
experienced were in disability circles, right?

379
00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:20,010
Like, I had friends that were deaf in college, and I have—like, there’s been

380
00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:25,049
so many situations where it’s, like, the desire to share in that community is

381
00:19:25,049 --> 00:19:29,050
so strong to help everyone else get better and to deal with the world, right?

382
00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:31,640
Because the world is not set up for these things.

383
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,600
And it’s like, people are, like, I have a new mouse joystick that works for

384
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,510
me in this situation, but it doesn’t work with this software or something.

385
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:39,230
And someone else is, like, oh, I have that solution.

386
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,279
In a lot of ways, the open-source ethos of, like, we are just going

387
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,209
to do the right thing for the community is so alive and well in

388
00:19:48,260 --> 00:19:50,820
disabled, anyone that needs accessibility, like, those communities,

389
00:19:50,820 --> 00:19:54,270
to me, have always, like, carried that on, more so than open-source,

390
00:19:54,270 --> 00:19:56,149
where, like, I get to make some money off this now, right?

391
00:19:56,149 --> 00:19:59,370
It’s, like, shifted in a lot of ways, where it’s like, oh, you can see the code.

392
00:19:59,370 --> 00:20:00,259
You can’t have the code.

393
00:20:00,259 --> 00:20:02,950
So, there’s a lot of things that have happened in what used to be

394
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:07,060
open-source 40 years ago, and I feel like communities that have kept

395
00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:10,639
that going are the ones that, like, I need this to live, to have a better

396
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,240
life, to have my friends have a better life, or my family, whatever.

397
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,090
I’m going to go deep into this topic, and I’m going to learn everything

398
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:19,260
about it, and then I’m going to go tell you about exactly what you’re

399
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,839
saying with, like, giving conference talks and writing and stuff.

400
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,890
I think it’s sad because a lot of medical research is done for

401
00:20:27,250 --> 00:20:30,229
either the military, which means you have to be—a lot of their target

402
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:34,680
audience is men between the ages of, like, what, I think 18 and 36.

403
00:20:35,309 --> 00:20:39,349
So, if you think about how many, like, black women or people with

404
00:20:39,349 --> 00:20:43,390
disabilities who are never brought into the medical conversation so, like,

405
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,630
think about how many times you’ve seen a parent on GoFundMe raising money

406
00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:52,770
to push a drug forward because it’s a drug for rare situations or a rare

407
00:20:52,770 --> 00:20:55,899
disease, and their kid’s going to die if someone doesn’t do that, you know?

408
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,379
Like, it gets to the point where you have to advocate for yourself and your

409
00:20:59,379 --> 00:21:04,909
children because there’s so many gaps for the disabled community, and for a

410
00:21:04,910 --> 00:21:09,090
lot of under-representative medical communities, that you have no other choice.

411
00:21:09,260 --> 00:21:11,100
If you look at open-source, what is open-source?

412
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,300
It is people solving a problem because it’s usually something that they needed.

413
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:15,950
So, the two really mesh.

414
00:21:16,139 --> 00:21:21,620
Yeah, and open-source is really important for—especially when it comes to

415
00:21:21,939 --> 00:21:26,910
assistive technology, and digital accessibility—of people really having

416
00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:32,459
that drive to go and finding open-source projects, to submit tickets for,

417
00:21:32,509 --> 00:21:36,719
you know, to correct issues about, you know, something that’s inaccessible.

418
00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:41,770
There’s so many accessibility experts who are out there, who

419
00:21:41,770 --> 00:21:45,589
spend their time, their free time, valuable free time, putting

420
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:49,719
in tickets, joining, you know, open-source projects to make sure

421
00:21:49,719 --> 00:21:53,210
things are accessible for people with disabilities out there.

422
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,080
And it’s also important from the kind of focus of things like

423
00:21:58,110 --> 00:22:02,860
right-to-repair because when someone is relying on technology

424
00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:08,269
to provide them access, sometimes companies go out of business,

425
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:13,020
sometimes particular applications are sunsetted and things like that.

426
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:18,820
But it’s not easy for someone with disability to just switch to a newer

427
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:26,269
thing or find an alternative, and so they’re either stuck without something

428
00:22:26,270 --> 00:22:31,480
that is required for them to have a good quality of life, or, you know,

429
00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:37,890
going into debt in bankruptcy to get that so things in here I’m in Colorado.

430
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,350
I think in the last I think it was either last year

431
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:44,679
or the year before, having the right to repair.

432
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,129
Because sometimes, when it comes to digital technology, like—or assistive

433
00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:54,790
technology—like wheelchairs, the right to—some states don’t allow that to

434
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:59,590
happen because companies are, like, well, if you do that, you void a warranty.

435
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:03,670
You know, we won’t honor the, you know, the warranty that you have.

436
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:06,510
Or it’s just… you can’t do it.

437
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,230
And the thing is, it is very important because the

438
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:12,400
thing is, it’s like, well, what can I, you know, do?

439
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:16,760
The open-source community is very important

440
00:23:17,719 --> 00:23:19,999
when it comes to digital accessibility.

441
00:23:20,139 --> 00:23:23,270
I love that you tie that together with the right to repair because that’s

442
00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:27,620
totally what it’s—I mean because for physical, like, disabilities of mobility,

443
00:23:27,890 --> 00:23:30,770
that is, like, I have to get to the store, I have to get to my doctor’s.

444
00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:33,340
But, like, I have to be able to fix the thing that allows

445
00:23:33,340 --> 00:23:35,959
me to do what other people will take for granted, or

446
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,080
what other people say, like, oh, this is just whatever.

447
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,740
But, like, tying that to, like, software right-to-repair as well, where

448
00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:46,580
it’s like, hey, Microsoft deprecated Windows whatever, and I needed that

449
00:23:46,580 --> 00:23:49,680
because my software only works with it, and I don’t have the source code.

450
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,220
I don’t have the ability to repair that thing anymore is another

451
00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:56,120
critical piece of, like, right, to repair goes to software.

452
00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,059
If it’s not open-source, we have to be able to protect people that I

453
00:24:00,059 --> 00:24:04,610
need—and people are crazy dedicated when it’s their livelihood, right?

454
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:06,189
They’re like, I have to be able to do this.

455
00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:09,950
I will open a hex editor and start matching keys and figure

456
00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:14,439
out how to get around your whatever constraints in your

457
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,570
deprecation so that I can function as a human in society.

458
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:20,790
And even goes beyond right-to-repair because—and I’m

459
00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:22,940
a huge component for updating your version of Java;

460
00:24:22,940 --> 00:24:27,670
we know that—but sometimes, like—girl, don’t—just—

461
00:24:27,670 --> 00:24:29,740
We’re 30 minutes in, and Java’s here.

462
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:29,970
All right [laugh]

463
00:24:29,970 --> 00:24:31,075
.
[laugh]

464
00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:35,630
.
Well, it’s important, though, because Apple changed their API for Macs at

465
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:40,659
a certain point, and a lot of the accessibility features for Java were not

466
00:24:40,660 --> 00:24:44,450
compatible, so they need it to be back-ported from a later version of Java.

467
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:48,529
But at a certain point you stop, contrib—or you stop doing back-ports,

468
00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:52,720
and doing certain, like, levels of maintenance for older LTSS, so

469
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,399
you’re just going to do security, and important back-ports, right?

470
00:24:56,870 --> 00:25:01,160
But one row of back-ports I did, it was accessibility, and it was

471
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,119
to an LTS that we weren’t going to actually start doing back-ports

472
00:25:04,130 --> 00:25:06,859
unless they were security or important, but you have to fight.

473
00:25:06,860 --> 00:25:10,619
Like, dude, these people need these things, and they can’t use their computers,

474
00:25:10,650 --> 00:25:14,950
and not everything is going—like, we can push people all you want to upgrade,

475
00:25:15,330 --> 00:25:18,610
but not everybody’s going to listen, and it affects those people’s lives.

476
00:25:18,620 --> 00:25:22,379
And then just trying to get it to work with things that just

477
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,080
aren’t compatible, you know, and trying to bring that back, and

478
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,170
then you have to lobby: this is really important, even though it’s

479
00:25:28,219 --> 00:25:31,550
this huge burden, and it’s not for an LTS that we’re supporting.

480
00:25:32,030 --> 00:25:34,730
So, we didn’t end up getting them all done, but I was like, let’s get

481
00:25:34,730 --> 00:25:38,510
as many done as possible because it’s like the slider that there’s

482
00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:42,470
so many UI parts that people don’t realize that you have to do it.

483
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,670
So, that was one of the best contributions to open-source is

484
00:25:45,679 --> 00:25:49,380
being able to fix those accessibilities, and to, like, back-port

485
00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:52,870
them, and being able to, like, make it work for those versions.

486
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,509
Because what if those people don’t have access to whatever program?

487
00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:58,049
Sometimes there are programs that they need.

488
00:25:58,050 --> 00:26:00,930
And, like, we all do, like, what digital therapy, we do all

489
00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:03,850
kind of things, and when you’re disabled, you might not have the

490
00:26:03,850 --> 00:26:06,910
mobility to get to a doctor’s appointment or to get somewhere.

491
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:10,530
Maybe that’s how you take in conferences or you do your job.

492
00:26:10,690 --> 00:26:14,610
It’s always wild to me that sometimes you’ll get people who, you

493
00:26:14,610 --> 00:26:19,019
know, who’ll get it up—they’ll understand about security, but not

494
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,790
understand that accessibility really is, you know, on that same level.

495
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:25,400
It should literally be on par with it.

496
00:26:25,410 --> 00:26:27,620
If you’re going to put security updates to

497
00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:30,050
that LTS, you should also do accessibility.

498
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:30,670
Yes.

499
00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:36,479
I wrote, like, a little while ago about InfoSec and accessibility

500
00:26:39,379 --> 00:26:42,530
and password managers because a lot of password managers in the past weren’t

501
00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:46,500
really, you know, accessible, which, that leaves you open to a vulnerability.

502
00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:50,870
Also being open to the fact that, you know, I know one thing—you know,

503
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,780
there’s this book call—it’s a, you know, a physical book that’s, like,

504
00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:58,409
‘The Book of Passwords.’ And people are, like, “Don’t put your passwords

505
00:26:58,410 --> 00:27:03,080
in there.” But it’s a thing of, well, if I can’t physically have my

506
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,340
password, and the password manager is not accessible to me, well I

507
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:12,460
could use the same password over and over again, and then that you have

508
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:16,620
a vulnerability of, [laugh] you know, of your data because, well, your

509
00:27:16,629 --> 00:27:20,980
password, you know, it’s not going to be a 20 character password with,

510
00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:24,189
like, symbols; it’s going to be something that you can remember, and you’re

511
00:27:24,190 --> 00:27:27,799
using it at, you know, a hundred different sites and things like that.

512
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,080
You know, I tell people it’s like, well, if you’re concerned about

513
00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:35,450
security, you also have to be—like, accessibility is not just front-end.

514
00:27:35,469 --> 00:27:40,430
It goes throughout, like, digital technology everywhere.

515
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:43,764
It’s one of those things, like, accessibility is important.

516
00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:47,039
It’s on the same level with many things that we think of.

517
00:27:47,410 --> 00:27:49,629
And it’s not—you know, this is something a lot of

518
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:52,899
accessibility experts say—accessibility is not an afterthought.

519
00:27:52,930 --> 00:27:54,014
And it really is not.

520
00:27:54,014 --> 00:27:58,110
It’s cliched saying, but it’s cliche for, like, for a reason.

521
00:27:58,340 --> 00:28:01,670
One of the things I think is interesting where that overlaps is, I remember

522
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:05,670
back in the day when accessibility features in Windows and on websites

523
00:28:05,719 --> 00:28:09,220
ended up being the vulnerability, right, where they’re like, oh, guess what?

524
00:28:09,429 --> 00:28:13,379
I can open up prompts on a Windows login screen because I can click

525
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,330
the screen reader, which then opens a way for me to get to see.

526
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,650
Like, whatever the process was just, like, oh, these pieces that were

527
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:23,120
afterthoughts ended up being the vulnerability, and if you would have

528
00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:26,370
integrated that ahead of time, you could have avoided these things, and you

529
00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:30,370
could have known, oh, why wouldn’t I want to have a prompt at a login screen?

530
00:28:30,450 --> 00:28:33,659
Like, those things are important, and that’s super interesting.

531
00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:37,040
And you also reminded me, years ago, my mother in law was like,

532
00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:39,330
she was signing into [unintelligible] website, or whatever new

533
00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:41,540
streaming service—I don’t remember what it was—and she pulls out

534
00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:44,159
a little notebook, and she wrote it down, wrote down the password.

535
00:28:44,159 --> 00:28:45,897
She’s like, “Oh, you probably don’t like that I do this.” I’m like,

536
00:28:45,969 --> 00:28:48,522
“I think that’s fantastic.” I was like, “I love that you do that.

537
00:28:48,522 --> 00:28:50,659
I don’t want you to use—you don’t have to use a password manager.”

538
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:52,230
So like, write it down somewhere.

539
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:55,650
So, you have a unique password that maybe you can’t remember.

540
00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:58,259
Because if you can’t remember it, it’s probably long and has something complex

541
00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:02,849
in it that might be better than you just saying, like, oh, it’s dog123, right?

542
00:29:03,460 --> 00:29:04,879
That’s not a great password.

543
00:29:04,879 --> 00:29:08,610
So absolutely, like, I think that’s fascinating when there’s overlap

544
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:13,490
there too, of, like, oh, maybe the best practice doesn’t fit every

545
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:17,270
situation, and at some point it is just a practice for some people,

546
00:29:17,389 --> 00:29:20,510
and we have to throw those rules out the window when it’s just

547
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,830
not going to work, and we have to be aware of those things too.

548
00:29:23,109 --> 00:29:27,189
I think that’s one of our biggest hindrances in security, is that we build

549
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,760
these security features for technology and to combat certain aspects of

550
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,329
technology, but we forget that the biggest, weakest link as humans, right?

551
00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:41,139
So, if we don’t make technology practices and security practices where

552
00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:45,510
it fits human nature, and part of that is we’re all built differently.

553
00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:46,942
We all, our brains are differently—

554
00:29:46,942 --> 00:29:47,226
All humans.

555
00:29:47,226 --> 00:29:47,980
It’s not the

556
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,750
ideal, here’s the one—

557
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:52,970
Like, okay, think about the amount of people that we know are

558
00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:55,629
super neuro-spicy in tech, and we’re going to pretend, like, we

559
00:29:55,630 --> 00:29:58,000
all were going to remember passwords to every different thing.

560
00:29:58,299 --> 00:29:58,779
Be real.

561
00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:00,420
What did you have for lunch yesterday, Autumn?

562
00:30:00,469 --> 00:30:02,720
I don’t know [laugh] . You know what I mean?

563
00:30:03,010 --> 00:30:05,380
I am the worst with passwords, with a whole

564
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:08,239
software and security degree over here.

565
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,039
If you look at so much of security, it is definitely

566
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,490
human psychology and how we interact with tech, right?

567
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,990
And, like, how our biases and so many things.

568
00:30:18,029 --> 00:30:20,370
And if we are not taking accessibility in with

569
00:30:20,370 --> 00:30:22,430
that, you’re setting people up for failure.

570
00:30:22,660 --> 00:30:26,710
If that isn’t part of the conversation, how can we truly

571
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:30,030
make products, and best practices, and put things in place?

572
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,713
Because what’s going to happen when it doesn’t work for you?

573
00:30:32,713 --> 00:30:35,289
You’re going to go around it, which makes it even more insecure.

574
00:30:35,639 --> 00:30:38,370
I feel like I’m like, on this new, like, thing of preaching, like,

575
00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:42,660
for one, how is human psychology in accessibility, and just all

576
00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:46,009
of how we interact with technology, what is that intersection?

577
00:30:46,010 --> 00:30:47,580
And then, like, the world has changed so

578
00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:49,619
much in the last couple of years, right?

579
00:30:49,630 --> 00:30:51,470
Like, we’ve had so many advances.

580
00:30:51,589 --> 00:30:53,389
This month has been a world

581
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:54,810
change.

582
00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:54,840
[laugh]

583
00:30:56,860 --> 00:30:59,520
. Okay, we’re all around the same age, right?

584
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,110
Like in high school, think about what you could do from your phone.

585
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,460
Think about how you interacted with the world.

586
00:31:04,590 --> 00:31:04,680
You had a phone?

587
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:04,910
Hold on

588
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:05,210
[
laugh]

589
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:05,475
.
Later.

590
00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:06,050
Later.

591
00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:06,790
Much later.

592
00:31:07,379 --> 00:31:07,959
Much later.

593
00:31:08,589 --> 00:31:08,619
[laugh]

594
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:11,750
.
And it was because I was left unattended, okay?

595
00:31:13,929 --> 00:31:15,530
It was not because it was good.

596
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:17,150
It was because of for all the wrong reasons.

597
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:19,010
So, think about it, right?

598
00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:23,520
We have not we, like, our laws are the way that we just

599
00:31:23,540 --> 00:31:26,439
think about things has not caught up with technology.

600
00:31:26,830 --> 00:31:30,300
We are not securing things in a way that is with this

601
00:31:30,330 --> 00:31:34,590
level of misinformation, just how humans interact with it.

602
00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:35,900
Like, you need a phone for everything.

603
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,130
People will be, like, “Oh, well, if the millennials didn’t buy

604
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:41,029
that iPhone and that coffee,” what can you do without a phone?

605
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:45,320
We literally are setting up a program to help people

606
00:31:45,780 --> 00:31:48,960
who are unhoused fill out applications and stuff because

607
00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:53,260
you can’t even get help to be housed without technology.

608
00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:57,379
I totally—like, I remember my own mind shift of, like, thinking, when I

609
00:31:57,380 --> 00:32:01,280
was younger and I would see people that were unhoused with phones, and I’m

610
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,719
like, they can afford a phone; they should be able to afford something else.

611
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:05,749
And then, like, realizing it later that,

612
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:08,320
like, I can’t do anything without a phone.

613
00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:09,750
They have to have that.

614
00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:13,480
But okay, but do you see how you had a mind shift and your brain was open?

615
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:17,330
Trying to understand and explain that to old dudes, and, like, try to,

616
00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:20,920
like, tell them why we’re advocating for this, they will fight you to

617
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,740
the death [laugh] . And I’m just, like, I need you to open your brain to

618
00:32:24,740 --> 00:32:28,315
other people and their experiences that are different than you [laugh]

619
00:32:28,860 --> 00:32:31,410
.
It’s like, oh, well, you can apply for a job.

620
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,560
Like, you can just go in.

621
00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:37,029
The amount of places that will kick you out if you try to go in and try to

622
00:32:37,030 --> 00:32:41,329
apply, places, like, Walmart or Target, like, if you go and say, “Hey, I

623
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:44,830
want to apply for a position here,” no, they send you to a—like, sometimes,

624
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:48,800
if they have a kiosk there, they’ll send you to that kiosk, or they’ll just

625
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:55,199
say, “Go home and apply online.” And it’s like, no more can you, like, oh,

626
00:32:56,540 --> 00:33:00,269
you know, beat the pavement, and go around to different companies, and hand

627
00:33:00,270 --> 00:33:04,620
out your resume because that’s a sure way to get your resume into the trash.

628
00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:06,970
And half the time, people are so understaffed

629
00:33:06,980 --> 00:33:08,629
they don’t have time to talk to you.

630
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:12,110
And it’s wild, like, you’ll see people, like, indignant, giving

631
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:15,210
this advice, and you’re, like, have you thought about how the world

632
00:33:15,210 --> 00:33:19,039
has changed since you gave that advice, or since you made these

633
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,410
social contracts of what you think trying hard and working hard is?

634
00:33:22,410 --> 00:33:24,620
Because you’re not even being understanding

635
00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:26,460
of the situations that most humans are in.

636
00:33:26,530 --> 00:33:29,659
There are whole, like, organizations that—we were thinking about how to

637
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:32,209
volunteer for [Melshouse] Coders, and we’re, like, “Well, what about all the

638
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:35,400
people that don’t even”—Washington is one of the states that has really great,

639
00:33:35,510 --> 00:33:38,625
different programs, but you have to be able to have access to those programs.

640
00:33:38,625 --> 00:33:40,540
You have to know that they exist, right?

641
00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:43,790
So, like, it’s cool that they’re out there, but if you don’t have somebody

642
00:33:43,790 --> 00:33:46,600
giving them a way to sign up for them, and teaching them how to do it.

643
00:33:46,650 --> 00:33:50,550
So, it’s like, it’s just wild, how what’s technology and

644
00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:53,550
what is also, like, multiple human factors that you need

645
00:33:53,550 --> 00:33:56,620
to add into that to make using that technology successful.

646
00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:02,640
Running Kubernetes at scale is challenging.

647
00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:06,920
Running Kubernetes at scale securely is even more challenging.

648
00:34:07,139 --> 00:34:09,980
Access management and user management are some of the most

649
00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:13,220
important tools that we have today to be able to secure

650
00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:16,230
your Kubernetes cluster and protect your infrastructure.

651
00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:20,980
Using Tremolo Security with OpenUnison is the easiest way, whether it be

652
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,430
on-prem or in the cloud, to simplify access management to your cluster.

653
00:34:25,549 --> 00:34:29,679
It provides a single sign-on and helps you with its robust security

654
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:32,975
features to secure your cluster and automate your workflow.

655
00:34:33,130 --> 00:34:37,380
So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes.

656
00:34:37,710 --> 00:34:42,080
You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo.

657
00:34:43,449 --> 00:34:48,790
That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

658
00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:58,640
Crystal, how has accessibility and software

659
00:34:58,650 --> 00:35:01,759
changed since you started diving into it and—

660
00:35:01,759 --> 00:35:02,600
That’s a good question.

661
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:03,289
—understanding it.

662
00:35:03,940 --> 00:35:05,400
I mean we kind of hit upon it.

663
00:35:05,410 --> 00:35:08,930
Like, really the one of the biggest changes is to kind

664
00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:12,890
of focus, you know, a lot more smartphones, and tablets,

665
00:35:12,890 --> 00:35:15,297
and things like that, and watches and things like that.

666
00:35:15,297 --> 00:35:19,620
And the thing is that I’ve really only, again, started

667
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:23,719
focusing on accessibility around, like, 2015, 2016.

668
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:25,800
So, that’s been the biggest thing.

669
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:32,569
The web accessibility content guidelines back—the 2.0—didn’t

670
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,970
even have really dedicated criteria guidelines about mobile

671
00:35:38,110 --> 00:35:42,699
accessibility, and that came in the update for WCAG 2.1.

672
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:48,130
And I remember one of my first, like, dedicated jobs with

673
00:35:48,330 --> 00:35:55,309
accessibility, was kind of a mapping WCAG 2.0 to mobile accessibility

674
00:35:55,309 --> 00:36:01,490
because I was testing native Android and iOS applications.

675
00:36:01,710 --> 00:36:05,879
But it was really hard to do that because going by those

676
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,690
guidelines, they weren’t really for mobile applications.

677
00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:15,949
So, a lot of my time was not just testing, but trying to figure out, okay,

678
00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:20,180
this is what these particular guidelines say, and this is for desktop.

679
00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:24,540
How does that apply to—and so that’s been the biggest thing,

680
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,549
is that because there is a shift with software, that younger

681
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:32,909
millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they’re not using desktop,

682
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:36,479
and that’s the same for younger people with disabilities.

683
00:36:36,709 --> 00:36:38,550
They’re not using, you know, desktops.

684
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:44,150
And so, that really means that there has to be a focus on

685
00:36:44,270 --> 00:36:47,639
accessibility for mobile applications and mobile devices.

686
00:36:47,870 --> 00:36:49,570
So, that’s been the biggest, you know, shift.

687
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:54,029
And I think also just the fact that there is more information out

688
00:36:54,359 --> 00:36:58,510
there—there could always be more [laugh] because there is a fight to

689
00:36:59,020 --> 00:37:04,129
really—because there is still a lot of ableism when it comes to accessibility

690
00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:07,380
in technology, there’s a lot of people who still think disabled people

691
00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:11,979
don’t use the internet and use technology, which, again, blows my mind.

692
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:16,319
But there really is a lot of people, unfortunately, in places that

693
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,190
make, you know, decisions that do think that, that oh, well, our users.

694
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:23,950
They don’t have disabilities, so why should we care about accessibility?

695
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,620
So, those are the two biggest things, that there

696
00:37:26,660 --> 00:37:29,110
is more knowledge around, you know, accessibility.

697
00:37:29,110 --> 00:37:33,870
And especially when it comes to software engineers and developers with

698
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:38,020
different frameworks, like, you know, you have React, and [Vue] , and

699
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,290
all these, where they there are dedication to making sure that people are

700
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:49,540
able to develop components right from the very start that are accessible.

701
00:37:49,860 --> 00:37:53,720
That’s something I’m really encouraged, but there’s so far, like, to go.

702
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:56,850
Because you can provide those tools, you can provide those

703
00:37:56,870 --> 00:38:01,690
frameworks, but it doesn’t mean anything if people don’t know

704
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,660
how to correctly implement them, and there’s no initiative

705
00:38:05,949 --> 00:38:10,420
in the places that they work to make sure that is happening.

706
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,200
Is that a piece of practical advice you’d give to

707
00:38:13,260 --> 00:38:15,239
anyone listening to the show, like, a developer?

708
00:38:15,620 --> 00:38:17,370
How would I make my software more accessible?

709
00:38:17,370 --> 00:38:20,349
It sounds like using some of those frameworks is just step one.

710
00:38:20,349 --> 00:38:21,879
Like, don’t roll your own.

711
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,690
You’re not going to have the rest of the stuff in it that would be

712
00:38:25,690 --> 00:38:29,800
accessible for people in various states, and I’m sure, React, and

713
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,989
Vue, and some of these more popular frameworks, at least, already

714
00:38:32,990 --> 00:38:36,080
try to adhere to the web accessibility, like, standards, right?

715
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,420
They’re like, oh, we’re going to implement some of

716
00:38:37,429 --> 00:38:39,859
the features that are required at a fundamental level.

717
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,160
Yeah, at a fundamental level that, you know, there’s really good documentation.

718
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:48,270
I know I’m in the midst of kind of re-skilling myself, like, so know

719
00:38:48,270 --> 00:38:51,050
there are tons of frameworks out there that I’m, like, needing to get

720
00:38:51,050 --> 00:38:55,520
familiar with, but a lot of them do have documentation of, like, how

721
00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:59,610
to go about using these frameworks to make sure things are accessible.

722
00:38:59,869 --> 00:39:02,770
And it’s really the want and desire of reading

723
00:39:02,770 --> 00:39:04,680
that documentation to do that correctly.

724
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:09,379
Also, this is something, another kind of cliche within the accessibility

725
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:15,169
community, but it’s very important, and that is using semantic HTML because

726
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:19,680
I kind of consult with developers, like, all the time, that’s kind of

727
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,250
part of what I do, and a lot of the issues that come about is because

728
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,580
they’re doing kind of really custom things, and that really had they

729
00:39:30,580 --> 00:39:36,129
used [laugh] , like, semantic HTML, then it wouldn’t have been an issue.

730
00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:40,340
And then that’s when it comes with ARIA, which is—I was actually just talking

731
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:44,389
about this on social media just the other day—I know I’m kind of jumping

732
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,780
around [laugh] with this—if you can’t use semantic HTML, then you can use ARIA.

733
00:39:51,690 --> 00:39:55,470
And ARIA stands for Accessible, Rich internet Applications.

734
00:39:55,500 --> 00:40:01,810
And really that’s for—ARIA is when you can’t use semantic code to make

735
00:40:01,820 --> 00:40:10,199
custom, like, widgets and components accessible using the header element or

736
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:15,830
H1 and H2 because assistive technology, screen readers and other assistive

737
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,470
technology, they understand what those elements are for structurally.

738
00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:28,210
So, that’s the thing of, if you use semantic HTML, then screen

739
00:40:28,210 --> 00:40:31,470
readers and other assistive technology are better able to

740
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,580
read the site, the application that the person is using it on.

741
00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:40,710
If that does not happen, then you’ll need to use

742
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:43,120
something like ARIA to kind of make up the difference.

743
00:40:43,389 --> 00:40:47,450
The thing is, is that a lot of times when people, they

744
00:40:47,459 --> 00:40:51,330
don’t use semantic HTML, then there’s a report that

745
00:40:51,330 --> 00:40:53,570
something, it’s inaccessible, then they’ll go to use ARIA.

746
00:40:54,350 --> 00:40:58,940
But a lot of times people do not understand—developers do not understand ARIA

747
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,330
because their first introduction to ARIA is they have a ticket to fix a bug.

748
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,180
It’s not truly, like, realistic because, you know, a lot

749
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:11,620
of times, developers or dealing with legacy code that

750
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:14,660
they can’t go in and refactor and do things like that.

751
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:21,770
So, it’s not ‘so don’t use ARIA.’ It should be more of ‘if you do have

752
00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:26,460
to use ARIA, you need to know how to use it correctly and understand

753
00:41:26,610 --> 00:41:30,740
it.’ And that’s something that, you know, I really press upon developers.

754
00:41:30,740 --> 00:41:33,370
It’s like, please learn that it shouldn’t be your

755
00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:37,059
go-to but I understand that you’re not control.

756
00:41:37,059 --> 00:41:39,150
Like, you don’t control the whole codebase,

757
00:41:39,490 --> 00:41:41,400
so you can’t go ahead and do everything.

758
00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:45,070
But understand how to do this correctly because if you’re doing it

759
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,010
incorrectly, it really does have a major effect, depending on what

760
00:41:49,010 --> 00:41:53,779
you’re working on, that this could mean someone, they can’t access an

761
00:41:53,780 --> 00:41:58,649
application, and that application can mean the difference between them

762
00:41:58,650 --> 00:42:02,350
not getting to a program, losing opportunities, and things like that.

763
00:42:02,710 --> 00:42:06,770
How can people get context for learning ARIA and stuff?

764
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:08,560
Also, I have another follow up question after this.

765
00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:11,220
I just opened their docs, and I love their, like, opening statement of

766
00:42:11,330 --> 00:42:16,089
basically, like, “Use native HTML elements and attributes wherever possible.

767
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:17,039
ARIA is a fallback.

768
00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:20,330
Don’t try to, like, shove this in there.” And then their first example—like,

769
00:42:20,330 --> 00:42:22,390
this, is great docs, just pulling this up—like, the very first example, the

770
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:26,240
very first example, has a HTML, like, a div, and it’s like, “If you have a

771
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,490
progress bar, here’s how you add the value now, the value at minimum, the

772
00:42:30,490 --> 00:42:33,880
value at maximum, and that’s how someone can see a progress bar loading

773
00:42:33,889 --> 00:42:37,379
without being able to see it if that’s that attribute, or if that piece on the

774
00:42:37,380 --> 00:42:40,930
page isn’t already accessible.” And that’s, like, a great start right there.

775
00:42:40,930 --> 00:42:41,500
I love that.

776
00:42:42,350 --> 00:42:44,800
W3C’s Web Accessibility Initiative has

777
00:42:44,809 --> 00:42:47,980
really, really good documentations on ARIA.

778
00:42:48,030 --> 00:42:52,229
Also, that’s where Web Accessibility Content Guidelines is, as well.

779
00:42:52,350 --> 00:42:56,339
That’s kind of the first thing when I’m meeting with, like, a developer,

780
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,270
those are the first things I’m pulling out because it’s all there,

781
00:43:00,270 --> 00:43:03,460
and there’s so many great people that contribute to these initiatives.

782
00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:07,269
It’s the first place to go, and it’s one of the best, a good

783
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,210
fundamental grasp of how to really start developing, you know,

784
00:43:12,510 --> 00:43:16,890
for accessibility and fixing issues of inaccessible issues.

785
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:21,060
We all know it’s hard to get into open-source, and it’s not always welcoming

786
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:24,120
to everyone, and we’re trying to change that, and open-source is going

787
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,110
through a lot right now, but do you think that it’s easier for people

788
00:43:28,110 --> 00:43:33,509
to, kind of, point out, and ticket, and kind of add a voice, and get a

789
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:36,690
seat at the table in open-source than it is, like, a major FANG company?

790
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:41,160
Because it’s really hard to, like, give a voice and to draw attention

791
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,249
to the things that we need to change without having a seat at the table.

792
00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:48,900
And people from that may deal with disabilities, to be able to say, “Hey,

793
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:53,730
this is not working for me,” and I would, like to think, in theory, being

794
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:57,180
able to open a ticket on GitHub and having, you know, to be able to join

795
00:43:57,180 --> 00:44:01,470
Slack for an open-source project or make comments on GitHub would be more

796
00:44:01,470 --> 00:44:05,429
accessible to at least show people, hey, I’m struggling with this part.

797
00:44:05,809 --> 00:44:09,220
Do you think that is a way that we can make better software?

798
00:44:09,450 --> 00:44:12,920
I think it is more accessible.

799
00:44:13,050 --> 00:44:14,950
Is it easier to get?

800
00:44:15,389 --> 00:44:16,920
That’s kind of debatable.

801
00:44:16,929 --> 00:44:21,280
Where trying to talk to, like, corporations and things, like, unless you’re

802
00:44:21,509 --> 00:44:26,279
someone who’s, like, working inside the company or is a customer that you

803
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:32,860
know spends a lot on products and stuff, it can be a lot harder to do that.

804
00:44:32,889 --> 00:44:36,440
And so with, you know, open-source projects, it is as easy

805
00:44:36,469 --> 00:44:39,740
as submitting an issue on GitHub and things like that.

806
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:45,759
But something I have noticed is that sometimes, like, they’ll submit

807
00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:50,100
issues and they’ll just sit there, and people will—sometimes, I

808
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,540
have seen people write out, like, “Well, why does this matter?

809
00:44:53,610 --> 00:44:56,490
This is, you know, this is not something that really

810
00:44:56,490 --> 00:45:00,640
matters for this project.” And that is very disheartening.

811
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,569
And for someone who is maybe new to accessibility, that can really discourage.

812
00:45:05,730 --> 00:45:08,399
Now, there are a lot of old heads for

813
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,150
accessibility, they’re not letting that stop them.

814
00:45:12,610 --> 00:45:13,770
They will submit tickets.

815
00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:14,960
They will follow up.

816
00:45:15,139 --> 00:45:18,810
There are some really cool people, they have thicker skin.

817
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:23,040
But there’s a lot of, like, newer people who are new to accessibility,

818
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,480
who, you know, really mean well, but, you know, and they’ll do this,

819
00:45:26,490 --> 00:45:30,000
and they’re like, “I submitted a ticket.” And it’s like, awesome, great.

820
00:45:30,020 --> 00:45:33,020
And they’re thinking, well, now this is going to get solved.

821
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:33,929
And I’m like, whoa.

822
00:45:34,299 --> 00:45:36,160
Let’s put a break on your expectations.

823
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,840
Like, you know, hopefully that will happen.

824
00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:42,290
Maybe you won’t do you will have to do a lot of pushing on that.

825
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:43,819
Sometimes you really do.

826
00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:45,990
But yeah, I do think it’s more accessible.

827
00:45:45,990 --> 00:45:51,610
I don’t know if it’s easier to get accessibility dealt with.

828
00:45:52,059 --> 00:45:54,960
We’ve been talking all of the accessibility—or at least, mostly accessibility

829
00:45:54,969 --> 00:45:59,760
has been focused on the front-end, web interfaces, applications, screen readers.

830
00:45:59,830 --> 00:46:04,479
Have you have any accessibility for audio, you know, text-to-audio, or

831
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,330
screen readers for, like, terminals, for back-ends, for command line?

832
00:46:09,330 --> 00:46:10,349
That seems, like, I was just trying to

833
00:46:10,350 --> 00:46:12,549
think, like, how does that get implemented?

834
00:46:12,619 --> 00:46:12,959
Or…

835
00:46:13,210 --> 00:46:15,910
I wish I had the opportunity, and probably, you

836
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:17,920
know, maybe one day, you know, I really will.

837
00:46:18,090 --> 00:46:21,020
There are people that do that, but I haven’t really

838
00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:25,249
ever had the opportunity to work on things like that.

839
00:46:25,290 --> 00:46:29,390
If any of our listeners know about something along those lines, a tool

840
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,610
or a console, like, a terminal emulator that, like, supports screen

841
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,319
reading—because I was trying to think, like, how I would grep logs, how

842
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,230
I would do the things that I commonly do as a sysadmin, doing operations,

843
00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:43,189
to be able to—because there’s just, like, there’s so much information.

844
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:44,999
Like, I would be reading a book every time

845
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,630
I try to, like, grep out those patchy logs.

846
00:46:46,809 --> 00:46:46,969
Well,

847
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,070
there are—I mean, you can still because I know plenty of visually

848
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,610
impaired and blind developers, and they still use the terminal.

849
00:46:54,670 --> 00:46:59,900
And these are developers that use both Mac and Windows.

850
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,350
And the thing is, I don’t know all the different, you know, accessibility tools

851
00:47:04,350 --> 00:47:08,620
for that, but usually, yeah, they either use, they’re using JAWS a lot of times.

852
00:47:08,670 --> 00:47:11,750
If they’re on a Mac, they’re obviously having to use VoiceOver.

853
00:47:11,940 --> 00:47:15,110
So, that’s something I’m also trying to dispel.

854
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:19,389
I know so many awesome blind developers who are

855
00:47:19,389 --> 00:47:22,724
just great at building things, and things like that.

856
00:47:23,029 --> 00:47:26,340
And it’s one of those things of, it’s really a shame that people

857
00:47:26,340 --> 00:47:29,049
don’t realize that because they think, well, obviously you

858
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:31,577
can’t see; you know, you can’t code and stuff and like that.

859
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:32,660
That is not true.

860
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:38,340
I remember, again, one of my very first jobs that focused on accessibility,

861
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:44,850
my coworker, Ethan, he was great and I was always going with to him to

862
00:47:44,850 --> 00:47:49,299
ask, like, coding questions and things like that because he was awesome.

863
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:54,429
Like, also his screen reader was very fast, and so I would always hear it.

864
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,790
Like, I got so even before I got really good at using my screen reader,

865
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:03,340
I was so used to, like—so now, when I use a screen reader, and I’m like,

866
00:48:03,350 --> 00:48:07,490
I’m demoing an issue and things, I have to turn my rate down really,

867
00:48:07,490 --> 00:48:12,590
really, like, [laugh] slow because I’m so used to, like, using it.

868
00:48:12,590 --> 00:48:18,420
It’s like, [high voice] bebabedabeb— [laugh] . Part of the reason is

869
00:48:18,460 --> 00:48:21,640
because before I got really—I was so used to hearing Ethan’s [laugh]

870
00:48:22,970 --> 00:48:24,250
.
I have two more questions.

871
00:48:24,290 --> 00:48:28,189
One is, we talked about how open-source enables

872
00:48:28,190 --> 00:48:30,650
people to repair their software and things.

873
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:33,890
I’ve, for a long time, been impressed with how much

874
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,489
accessibility features Apple has put into the iPhone.

875
00:48:36,989 --> 00:48:41,009
IOS, I feel like has done a lot in just making some things functional

876
00:48:41,010 --> 00:48:43,250
that I didn’t know existed, that I use some of those tools, just of

877
00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:45,040
those tools just because I’m like, this is convenient and I like it.

878
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:46,359
It’s a closed-source platform.

879
00:48:46,380 --> 00:48:48,930
If you don’t fit that mold or you don’t have the thing—like, I feel like

880
00:48:48,930 --> 00:48:52,940
Android would be better at some of those things, just because it has more of

881
00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:58,890
an open ethos, or more deep integrations into doing something in the system.

882
00:48:59,250 --> 00:49:01,530
From your experience, has one platform been better

883
00:49:01,530 --> 00:49:04,290
than the other—Android versus iOS—for accessibility?

884
00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:04,776
[laugh]

885
00:49:04,776 --> 00:49:05,830
.
Dangerous [crosstalk]

886
00:49:05,830 --> 00:49:06,610
.
It’s your opinion.

887
00:49:06,610 --> 00:49:07,162
It doesn’t matter.

888
00:49:07,162 --> 00:49:07,790
I mean,

889
00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:09,310
everyone can have an opinion here.

890
00:49:09,509 --> 00:49:11,819
I’m just kind of curious from your experience.

891
00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:11,850
[laugh]

892
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,450
.
So, the thing is that, personally, like, my work

893
00:49:16,450 --> 00:49:20,009
phone is iOS and my personal phone is Android.

894
00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:21,540
I prefer Android.

895
00:49:21,540 --> 00:49:24,569
I feel there’s a lot more when it comes to

896
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:27,319
accessibility features and tools for me.

897
00:49:27,380 --> 00:49:28,509
So, that’s why I use it.

898
00:49:28,989 --> 00:49:34,390
IOS, I think really, for a long while, was really the kind of star and

899
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,850
standard when it came to accessibility, that really took it seriously.

900
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,120
So, now it’s really about, you know, if you’re if that’s what you’ve spent

901
00:49:42,130 --> 00:49:46,690
years and years using for your accessibility needs, it’s just easier,

902
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,980
like, to—it’s the reason why when people—you know, just like someone who

903
00:49:49,980 --> 00:49:53,350
doesn’t use the iPhone for accessibility, and they switch it Android,

904
00:49:53,350 --> 00:49:57,650
and then they’re like, even if it has a lot of the things that they want,

905
00:49:57,650 --> 00:50:00,900
but they’re like, “I don’t like it because it’s not what I’m used to.”

906
00:50:01,070 --> 00:50:01,240
Yeah.

907
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,079
Familiarity is so important.

908
00:50:03,729 --> 00:50:06,819
And that goes right back to the deprecating software,

909
00:50:06,850 --> 00:50:09,089
and even, like, site redesigns, and everything.

910
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:12,910
Like, that throws everyone for a loop, when it’s like, oh, like, now everything

911
00:50:12,910 --> 00:50:15,949
is different, and they’re like, oh, we’re going to—“We launched the site.

912
00:50:16,090 --> 00:50:17,669
We’re going to get to the accessibility features.”

913
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:18,820
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen that.

914
00:50:18,820 --> 00:50:19,450
I’m like, “No.

915
00:50:19,460 --> 00:50:20,619
Like, you didn’t launch the site.

916
00:50:20,620 --> 00:50:21,469
It’s not complete.

917
00:50:21,549 --> 00:50:22,219
Like, stop it.”

918
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,410
I mean, for me because I do use, like, the one screen

919
00:50:25,410 --> 00:50:29,590
reader I can say I’m really good at using, is TalkBack.

920
00:50:29,590 --> 00:50:33,160
And that’s because I really started using a screen reader on my

921
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,500
phone, and obviously I had Android, and so that was TalkBack.

922
00:50:37,570 --> 00:50:41,090
Google’s Lookout, which was really built for blind, and visually

923
00:50:41,090 --> 00:50:44,500
impaired people because when I need to, like, read something

924
00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:49,190
on my medicine, like, because a lot of times it’s super, super

925
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:52,560
tiny; I have hold it up to my face, I won’t be able to read it.

926
00:50:52,820 --> 00:50:56,040
So, being able to, like, take snapshots of, have

927
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,939
it tell me what something is for me, you know.

928
00:50:58,969 --> 00:51:02,540
And then now there’s so much more, and they’re like and they’re constantly

929
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,779
doing innovations and things like that, and adding more features.

930
00:51:06,850 --> 00:51:10,100
But the same thing is true about Apple as well.

931
00:51:10,179 --> 00:51:15,049
So, it does really come down to, well, how long have you been using it?

932
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,640
And then, two, what are you more concerned about?

933
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,690
Do you really want that freedom of being able to build for it?

934
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:24,340
Because you can definitely do that on the,

935
00:51:24,340 --> 00:51:27,170
you know, Android side, versus on Apple.

936
00:51:27,179 --> 00:51:30,640
So, it really does come down to that I—and so, that’s

937
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,080
where I’m kind of, like, you can make cases for both.

938
00:51:33,089 --> 00:51:35,679
You know, for me personally, I like Android.

939
00:51:36,049 --> 00:51:37,880
One because it was the price, but now that

940
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,820
doesn’t matter because— [laugh] —most of

941
00:51:42,450 --> 00:51:42,500
the— [laugh]

942
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:45,310
—
All right, and my last question, I say the most—and maybe the

943
00:51:45,310 --> 00:51:47,690
most spicy, but the moment I was really interested in, and I

944
00:51:47,690 --> 00:51:51,029
didn’t want to talk about the whole time, how has the current

945
00:51:51,049 --> 00:51:57,050
implementation of AI, generative AI, affected accessibility?

946
00:51:57,060 --> 00:51:58,120
Has it at all?

947
00:51:58,340 --> 00:52:00,609
Has there been changes, in that either things

948
00:52:00,610 --> 00:52:02,459
are more difficult or things got better?

949
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:06,119
I’m really curious, like, how, from that perspective, anything

950
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,269
has kind of bled over into this, like, world of we made it one

951
00:52:10,270 --> 00:52:12,930
way, we shipped it really fast, and half of it doesn’t work.

952
00:52:13,250 --> 00:52:17,630
But is it doing any good in the accessibility world?

953
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,560
I think there is an over-reliance from people who are,

954
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,310
like, okay, generative AI is going to solve accessibility.

955
00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:29,549
And I can definitely—I will say that with my whole chest, there’s

956
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:34,510
no way generative AI is going to solve all for accessibility.

957
00:52:34,770 --> 00:52:39,200
Am I someone that’s, like, AI has absolutely no use?

958
00:52:39,230 --> 00:52:40,290
I’m not going to say that.

959
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:41,920
To be honest, I don’t really believe that.

960
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,370
There are some uses that are out there.

961
00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:48,829
I know Be My Eyes is something that I use, that uses AI, which is kind

962
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:52,240
of great when I’m taking pictures and stuff because I can’t see it.

963
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:57,299
And having it described, it does a fantastic job, and that is AI-driven.

964
00:52:57,300 --> 00:53:00,040
And I really like that, and other people who are blind and

965
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,819
visually impaired who use Be My Eyes, it’s been really positive.

966
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,920
But there has been this thread that has been kind of weaving

967
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,380
itself around, of, like, again, AI will solve everything when

968
00:53:13,380 --> 00:53:16,409
it comes to accessibility, so you won’t have to worry about it.

969
00:53:16,690 --> 00:53:22,049
And I really, really don’t like that because it’s trying to enforce that

970
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:26,600
accessibility as an afterthought, that it’s going to be solved, like, by magic.

971
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,950
The same thing where happened with overlays, where it’s like, oh, overlays

972
00:53:30,980 --> 00:53:34,870
are going to solve your accessibility needs, which has turned out is not

973
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:41,710
true, as [laugh] certain news has come out lately about lawsuits in FTC,

974
00:53:41,860 --> 00:53:46,020
wanting to find companies who have put forth that idea that overlays can

975
00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:50,980
solve everything, and, you know, prevent you from, like, legal liability.

976
00:53:51,290 --> 00:53:54,440
Don’t you love how it’s going to get rid of developers, it’s going to solve

977
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,310
accessibility, world hunger, like, climate chan—like, it’s just out here.

978
00:53:58,340 --> 00:53:59,930
It’s just, it’s magical.

979
00:53:59,940 --> 00:54:00,840
It’s doing everything.

980
00:54:00,850 --> 00:54:03,710
Not, like, it’s just math or anything and compute power, but, like, you know…

981
00:54:04,220 --> 00:54:07,620
That’s the thing, is that when it comes to internet, there’s a lot

982
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:12,040
that’s missing about disability and accessibility on the internet.

983
00:54:12,290 --> 00:54:15,680
And this is where this AI is getting trained from.

984
00:54:15,690 --> 00:54:22,100
This data is either missing or it is very—it’s ableist, it’s incorrect.

985
00:54:22,370 --> 00:54:28,450
An AI can’t mimic someone with a disability if the data

986
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,800
that it has access—that it’s generated from is flawed.

987
00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:31,830
Oh,

988
00:54:31,830 --> 00:54:32,520
just wait.

989
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,650
Meta is going to come out with an AI bot that is disabled, deaf and,

990
00:54:36,820 --> 00:54:39,390
like, five different colors, and they’re going to be, like, “But we know.”

991
00:54:40,730 --> 00:54:40,760
[laugh]

992
00:54:41,780 --> 00:54:42,530
.
Did you see that?

993
00:54:42,690 --> 00:54:43,570
Like, I about died.

994
00:54:43,790 --> 00:54:45,970
Like, they were like, she’s a black woman, and

995
00:54:45,970 --> 00:54:48,190
a lesbian, and she’s got a she’s a single mom.

996
00:54:48,190 --> 00:54:50,339
And I was like, well, dang [laugh] . We [crosstalk] all three of them.

997
00:54:50,339 --> 00:54:51,495
[laugh]

998
00:54:52,650 --> 00:54:52,940
.
Like, okay.

999
00:54:53,420 --> 00:54:56,330
I didn’t know—I didn’t even know—because I remember Be My Eyes, like, I

1000
00:54:56,330 --> 00:54:59,120
remember when the app came out, and it’s all about, like, connecting visually

1001
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,540
impaired with someone that, like, a real world and, like, as a person that

1002
00:55:02,550 --> 00:55:05,459
had good vision, you could sign up to be the other connection of that.

1003
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:07,290
I didn’t know they had an AI component of it.

1004
00:55:07,730 --> 00:55:09,620
I wonder if it would help with your color,

1005
00:55:09,690 --> 00:55:11,170
with the fact that you’re color blind.

1006
00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:12,459
No, they’re just going to say, “It’s, like, blue.” And

1007
00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:14,269
I’m like, “Well, I don’t what blue looks like.” It’s fine.

1008
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,340
But, like, I didn’t know that Be My Eyes works on the Meta Ray-Ban glasses.

1009
00:55:18,430 --> 00:55:19,379
That’s really cool.

1010
00:55:19,490 --> 00:55:19,680
Like—

1011
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:19,826
That is really cool.

1012
00:55:19,826 --> 00:55:22,980
Like, to make that not only, like, hey, I need some help here, but

1013
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:26,889
also make it convenient is a really cool—like, I think the more

1014
00:55:26,889 --> 00:55:31,220
that shifts into this isn’t a hassle is a better thing for everyone.

1015
00:55:31,230 --> 00:55:32,130
Of just, like, oh, guess what?

1016
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:35,100
I don’t have to go through 18 different hoops to then

1017
00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:37,330
say, like, I need to, like, cross the street right now.

1018
00:55:37,330 --> 00:55:37,960
I think to

1019
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,550
streamline it into everyday life, and make it easy, to make it

1020
00:55:42,550 --> 00:55:46,050
a part of your day, to assist you is what could really help.

1021
00:55:46,050 --> 00:55:49,820
Like, a lot of the fact that we’re using image detection and stuff like that,

1022
00:55:49,830 --> 00:55:53,220
like, being able to detect something that’s coming in front of you, but, like,

1023
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,429
I wish that was more of what the focus is because AI could be really rad.

1024
00:55:57,429 --> 00:56:01,239
Like, we could use AI to help people, and instead of being,

1025
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:04,220
like, let’s use it to find immigrants and to try to hunt

1026
00:56:04,250 --> 00:56:07,339
people, let’s use it to help people cross the street, Y’all.

1027
00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:10,370
I swear Elmo needs to talk to, like, half the

1028
00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:11,840
adults in the world because I can’t [crosstalk]

1029
00:56:13,020 --> 00:56:15,850
.
I usually have, like, “What is that on my floor?”

1030
00:56:15,850 --> 00:56:21,000
And it’s usually, like, “It is a fluff ball.” [laugh]

1031
00:56:22,910 --> 00:56:22,940
.
[laugh]

1032
00:56:22,940 --> 00:56:23,359
.
I—and that’s [crosstalk]

1033
00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:23,610
—
Is this a bug?

1034
00:56:23,610 --> 00:56:23,750
Is it a sock?

1035
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:25,180
Oh, yes.

1036
00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:25,720
Yes, yes.

1037
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:30,400
I am totally, like, “What is that?” And so, I never—when—Be

1038
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,264
My Eyes, I never use the portion where, you know, you could

1039
00:56:33,309 --> 00:56:35,580
call someone to have you because I’m like, I got trust issues.

1040
00:56:35,580 --> 00:56:38,299
And I’m like, no, I don’t want you [laugh] . But soon as I, you know,

1041
00:56:38,299 --> 00:56:41,490
I could use something that it’s like, it’s just, I’m like, cool.

1042
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,895
I, [laugh] like, I’ll use it to I’m like, is it—because that’s a lot of it.

1043
00:56:45,895 --> 00:56:48,350
It’s like, what’s this say on the side of,

1044
00:56:48,350 --> 00:56:50,970
like, this thing, you know, of this bottle?

1045
00:56:51,139 --> 00:56:52,359
Yeah, is that a bug?

1046
00:56:53,150 --> 00:56:53,180
[
laugh]

1047
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:56,460
.
See, I wish people would ask, hey, what could we do, and

1048
00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:58,809
how could we implement this to make your life better?

1049
00:56:58,809 --> 00:56:59,520
Because guess what?

1050
00:56:59,529 --> 00:57:01,600
That’s also going to be more profitable, right?

1051
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,000
If it has a real use, it will still be more profitable

1052
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,940
than just making weird cartoons on the internet.

1053
00:57:07,980 --> 00:57:08,270
I don’t.

1054
00:57:08,340 --> 00:57:11,350
Our first guest on the show, Kelsey, he was just [saying] on BlueSky the

1055
00:57:11,350 --> 00:57:14,983
other day, “The future of AI is whatever makes the most money.” That is

1056
00:57:14,983 --> 00:57:15,086
exactly—

1057
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:16,160
But that’s all tech.

1058
00:57:17,029 --> 00:57:17,950
This is a business, bro.

1059
00:57:18,060 --> 00:57:21,740
Like, [laugh] every time I have to give a talk about why

1060
00:57:21,740 --> 00:57:25,450
to include women in things, we’re 51% of the population.

1061
00:57:25,450 --> 00:57:26,017
What do you mean?

1062
00:57:26,179 --> 00:57:28,859
In what business do you just not care about your

1063
00:57:28,860 --> 00:57:32,460
audience, or 87% of discretional, like, spending?

1064
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:33,380
Like, what do you mean?

1065
00:57:33,889 --> 00:57:36,090
I’ve been following you on Twitter for so long, and

1066
00:57:36,090 --> 00:57:39,060
then to BlueSky because the Twitter’s the bad place now.

1067
00:57:39,180 --> 00:57:42,540
Okay, your blog on anxiety—first of all, the picture you

1068
00:57:42,540 --> 00:57:45,190
have behind you is my favorite of your profile pictures.

1069
00:57:45,210 --> 00:57:49,890
It is the cutest freaking picture ever—and then your blog on anxiety,

1070
00:57:50,219 --> 00:57:55,090
there’s a whole part of the blog where she, like, monologs, and starts

1071
00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:58,210
talking about who would play her in the movie in the moment she’s

1072
00:57:58,230 --> 00:58:01,920
having, and it’s Keke Palmer, but, like—or, like hologram of Eartha Kitt.

1073
00:58:02,090 --> 00:58:06,819
I have never been so consumed by a piece of reading.

1074
00:58:07,049 --> 00:58:11,000
There’s a Beyoncé moment in this I’ve never felt so seen.

1075
00:58:11,420 --> 00:58:12,250
It is fire.

1076
00:58:12,279 --> 00:58:13,820
So, the whole time we’re, like, I worked in journalism,

1077
00:58:13,820 --> 00:58:15,390
I was like, “Were you a writer?” Because damn, girl.

1078
00:58:15,420 --> 00:58:18,220
I was like, I went there for tech content.

1079
00:58:18,220 --> 00:58:19,330
I didn’t know what I was getting.

1080
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:20,920
Who is she?

1081
00:58:20,980 --> 00:58:24,839
Can we be bestie—“Break my Soul” from Beyoncé is in here, okay?

1082
00:58:25,089 --> 00:58:26,540
There’s a whole monologue.

1083
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:31,190
She said that, “Not only would her cats would be played by black dog

1084
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:36,210
with little self-preservation and even fewer teeth.” Who sentences that?

1085
00:58:36,260 --> 00:58:36,480
Well, [unintelligible]

1086
00:58:39,710 --> 00:58:43,650
has no—like, he’s with my ex now, but he has,

1087
00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:45,879
like, little too, he has little snaggle tooths.

1088
00:58:46,299 --> 00:58:46,894
Yeah, and he— [laugh]

1089
00:58:46,894 --> 00:58:48,650
—
This is the most fire paragraph

1090
00:58:48,650 --> 00:58:53,520
of anything that I have ever read in my life, okay?

1091
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,570
In the last part about how Keke is sitting on a chair

1092
00:58:56,570 --> 00:58:58,790
and, like, smoking cigarettes, not that you smoke, but

1093
00:58:58,790 --> 00:59:02,379
because that’s the tropes that—so I pictured it, okay?

1094
00:59:02,380 --> 00:59:04,030
Like, my brain was there.

1095
00:59:04,100 --> 00:59:07,410
I had a whole out-of-body, like, experience and visual.

1096
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:08,060
It made

1097
00:59:08,060 --> 00:59:09,120
my entire life.

1098
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,810
Yeah, that was the summer, the apart—the

1099
00:59:11,970 --> 00:59:14,570
building’s elevator tried to kill everybody

1100
00:59:16,599 --> 00:59:17,539
in [laugh] the whole—it was the whole thing.

1101
00:59:17,540 --> 00:59:19,620
It kept trying to set itself on fire.

1102
00:59:19,870 --> 00:59:22,996
So, I was having— [laugh] —I was going

1103
00:59:22,996 --> 00:59:23,549
through it.

1104
00:59:23,650 --> 00:59:27,230
I’m so glad that you didn’t die in the elevator, and I am so

1105
00:59:27,230 --> 00:59:31,029
glad that we got this gem out of you not dying in an elevator

1106
00:59:31,330 --> 00:59:34,460
[laugh] . I was sitting here, like, trying not to be late for my

1107
00:59:34,460 --> 00:59:38,100
kids awards, and, like, in between meetings, like, this is amazing.

1108
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:40,599
Also, Keke Palmer should so play you.

1109
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,040
And, like, I just saw her hair be, like, just a

1110
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:44,670
little bit messed up because she got look good, right?

1111
00:59:44,690 --> 00:59:48,680
Because it’s movie, but then, like, just in—look, chef’s kisses.

1112
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:49,990
Chef’s kisses.

1113
00:59:50,030 --> 00:59:51,789
Where should they find you online?

1114
00:59:51,790 --> 00:59:53,139
Where should they read this blog?

1115
00:59:53,469 --> 00:59:56,230
We can have links in the [show notes] , but we can tell them too.

1116
00:59:56,589 --> 00:59:57,560
I’m on BlueSky.

1117
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,210
It’s like, scopicengineer, at whatever the ending of BlueSky is.

1118
01:00:02,230 --> 01:00:06,879
And then my website, you know, crystalprestonwatson.com, and then

1119
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,210
from there, you can get to my blog from there, but you also can

1120
01:00:10,210 --> 01:00:16,069
do a11ysavvy, and that takes you to my Accessibility Savvy blog.

1121
01:00:16,109 --> 01:00:17,859
I do longer form.

1122
01:00:18,180 --> 01:00:20,509
So, I don’t blog, you know, constantly.

1123
01:00:20,510 --> 01:00:24,060
I usually because sometimes, other than when I’m having the

1124
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,680
existential crisis, I do a lot of research with my blogs.

1125
01:00:29,210 --> 01:00:32,370
So, I did one, you know, if you want to read about why

1126
01:00:32,370 --> 01:00:35,279
porn needs to be accessible, I’ve done a blog about that,

1127
01:00:35,279 --> 01:00:37,800
and that required me to go deep into the Supreme Court.

1128
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,120
Accessibility has never

1129
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:40,730
been so interesting, y’all.

1130
01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:44,129
Like, I just want you to know, like, I was over there with, like, popcorn.

1131
01:00:44,130 --> 01:00:45,500
Like, I was just, like, “What?” Like—

1132
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:49,470
[laugh] . I’ll probably have some more stuff

1133
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:51,470
coming, and I’m—definitely some more stuff coming—

1134
01:00:51,530 --> 01:00:52,639
Please write more things.

1135
01:00:52,649 --> 01:00:52,719
—in the year.

1136
01:00:52,729 --> 01:00:54,160
I want to read them, with

1137
01:00:54,379 --> 01:00:57,170
just full excitement and enthusiasm.

1138
01:00:57,900 --> 01:00:59,250
It gave me life, okay?

1139
01:00:59,250 --> 01:01:00,400
I was so bored this morning.

1140
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,360
I had [unintelligible] on a second cup of coffee, just, like, this is amazing

1141
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:09,410
[laugh] . Do you have any advice for making security more accessible so

1142
01:01:09,410 --> 01:01:12,459
it can be better used, so people don’t feel the need to just go around it?

1143
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:16,459
People in security really need to talk with people with disabilities.

1144
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:19,779
I mean, you know because I know I’ve done some, probably

1145
01:01:19,780 --> 01:01:22,759
stuff that’s, like, ehh, this is not really a good InfoSec,

1146
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,700
but I’m going to do it because it’s [laugh] not accessible.

1147
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:27,309
But I think that’s the biggest thing.

1148
01:01:27,330 --> 01:01:30,479
There’s nothing technological-wise I can really say that would

1149
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,470
make as big of a difference is to really talk to disabled

1150
01:01:35,490 --> 01:01:40,220
users, and really understand, when things aren’t inaccessible,

1151
01:01:40,380 --> 01:01:44,560
how that can cause security risk and security issues.

1152
01:01:44,799 --> 01:01:48,290
We should do a talk together about security and accessibility.

1153
01:01:48,350 --> 01:01:48,970
I would love.

1154
01:01:48,970 --> 01:01:53,250
That I once worked for, you know, like, a federated, like, ID, like,

1155
01:01:53,260 --> 01:01:57,539
company, and so that’s kind of where I got really interested about, you

1156
01:01:57,540 --> 01:02:00,980
know, InfoSec and stuff like that, and that’s why I’ve always kind of, you

1157
01:02:00,980 --> 01:02:04,109
know, in the back of my mind with accessibility, I’m just, like, got to

1158
01:02:04,109 --> 01:02:08,500
keep that in mind in making sure that we’re thinking about accessibility.

1159
01:02:08,590 --> 01:02:12,630
Even though it’s like, well, you can’t—you know, there’s no back-end code for

1160
01:02:12,630 --> 01:02:15,999
accessibility, but it’s like, yeah, but there’s a lot of things you still need

1161
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:21,459
to think about when it comes to disabled people in information security as well.

1162
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,079
Crystal, thank you so much for coming on the show.

1163
01:02:23,090 --> 01:02:25,420
Thank you everyone for listening, and we will talk to you again soon.

1164
01:02:40,690 --> 01:02:43,700
Thank you for listening to this episode of Fork Around and Find Out.

1165
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:46,130
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1166
01:02:46,130 --> 01:02:49,310
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1167
01:02:49,420 --> 01:02:51,520
However we get the word out about this show

1168
01:02:51,730 --> 01:02:53,940
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1169
01:02:54,219 --> 01:03:00,490
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1170
01:03:00,490 --> 01:03:03,730
to us there about what you’re interested in sponsoring, and how we can help.

1171
01:03:04,930 --> 01:03:08,110
We hope your systems stay available and your pagers stay quiet.

1172
01:03:08,650 --> 01:03:09,830
We’ll see you again next time.