FKN Classics Double Feature! Miguel Conner - Occult Elvis | Richard Estep - Dark Paranormal

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Enjoy these back-to-back classic forbidden knowledge news episodes. Today I
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want to welcome back to the show Miguel O'Connor. He
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is a writer, voiceover artist, and host of the popular
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podcast Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio.
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Miguel, welcome back. How you doing? I'm doing good. Thanks
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for having me back on.
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Thanks so much for coming back on. We're going to
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be discussing your book, The Occult Elvis, The Mystical and
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Magical Life of the King. Last time you were on,
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I believe you were just finishing up with a book,
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and we talked briefly about it, but it is now available,
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and we can get much deeper into the discussion. As
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far as my understanding and knowledge of the king, it
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really correlates to my parents. They were in love with Elvis,
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and that's where I got exposed to it, but really
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had no idea about some of the concepts that you're
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bringing to light in your book. So I'm very interested
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to learn more and share it with the audience. Before
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we do, it's been a little while since you've been on.
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Remind us a little bit about yourself and let them
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know where they can find all your work.
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Yeah, I think traditionally I'm known as the Gnostic Guy,
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host of AM by Gnostic Radio, a podcast that's been
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around for many, many moons. And that's been my day job,
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if you would, doing the podcast, writing books and articles
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and promoting Gnosticism and Hermeticism and how they can manifest
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in a modern world and how can they be useful.
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But now, yeah, with the release of the occult Elvis,
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I'm moving to the Elvis guy or the esoteric Elvis guy.
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And for that, your audience should simply go to MiguelConner.com.
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And there are links to Aeon Byte there, links to
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the book, links to my new sub stack where I
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write about Elvis and other goodies. Excellent.
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Well, I'll have those links easily accessible for everyone in
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the description as well. As far as the book goes,
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what brought you to write about Elvis?
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I think he brought me to write about Elvis. I
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think that's it. I don't want to use the cliche.
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It was channeled, but yes, it was kind of channeled.
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Unlike you, I was never, my parents never liked Elvis.
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They didn't like rock music at all. They were more
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like jazz, big band kind of people. But later on,
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I got into the Beatles and other classic rock, but
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never really got into Elvis. He really was not part
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of my life. But as time went on, I had
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read about his occult side just as I started learning
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about the occult side of Jim Morrison and the Beatles
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and David Bowie. Rock stars are eccentric people who dabble
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in these things. But little did I know that most
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of them didn't just dabble. It was a big part
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of their lives, including Elvis. But it was around the
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summer of 2022 when Through a series of synchronicities, visions,
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some of them caused by ayahuasca ceremonies I'd done, traveling.
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It was just a whole barrage of energies that brought
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this voice saying, you need to write about the part
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of me that the world has missed. And I struggled
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with it, but I suddenly became really obsessed with Elvis
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that fall. I couldn't stop listening to his music or
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watching documentaries. Just got, yeah, as I say, I got
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quantum entangled with Elvis. But I was still resisting it.
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I would mention it on my podcast about Elvis, and
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my audience was like thinking I'd gone crazy. Like, why
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is this guy bringing up Elvis in the middle of
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talking about the Gnostics in Alexandria?
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Right on.
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And then by February of 2023, I surrendered and I
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sat down and I started writing this book and it
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came out in a few months and was able to
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get a publishing deal by that August and the rest
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is history. And here I am talking to you.
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How was it that you were able to break through
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to the information about Elvis's mystical side?
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And I had no idea what was going to happen.
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I had one bio called the seeker King published by
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the Theosophical Society's quest books by Gary Tillery. And it's a,
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it's a linear traditional bio, but it focuses on Elvis's
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like search of God. And it does mention a lot
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of his, uh, uh, supernatural experiences, UFO encounters, all that.
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But I didn't know where I was going to head
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when I started writing this book, except for this little knowledge.
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And as I started going into a lot of biographies, articles,
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and so forth, again, I didn't discover this. This is
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a secret hidden in plain sight. You can find it
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in Priscilla's bio. You can find it in, you know,
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the Guardian articles. It's all with, you can find it
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in mainstream biographies, biographies that have been written by lauded
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historians that have sold millions of copies and are considered
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very well researched. But it's all in little pieces about
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Elvis being into Manly B. Hall or Elvis being able
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to astral travel. So it's more or less my job
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to go to these reliable sources hidden in plain sight,
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available to everybody. and start collating this information and put
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it into a book, and it was deep. That rabbit
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hole went deep. I'm still finding out more information about Elvis,
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and also part of the book is trying to explain
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through various lenses his life, his rise, his fall, what
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drove him to different decisions and sections of his life
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and put it through different lenses so that the audience can,
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the reader can make up their mind. I put Elvis
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through the lens of Jung, through Rudolf Steiner, through alchemy,
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through regular psychology, even ufology. I put Elvis through that
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lens too. and try to see what the message is
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that the reader can get out of Elvis and see
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a new dimension of his life.
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Right on.
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Well, maybe we could break down some areas of his
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life to try and get a better picture of this.
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When we look at him from the earliest age, from childhood,
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were there any indicators of his trajectory, what he was
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interested in? I look back at what I learned about
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Elvis and The mainstream information tells us that he's obviously Christian.
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He loves gospel music. And it doesn't really go much
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further than that as far as spiritual beliefs. But what
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can we learn from his childhood?
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Well, it was pretty much faded, as I say. I
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wonder if Elvis had any choice but to be Elvis. Because, again,
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it's all right there. And, uh, nothing is really hidden.
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It's just been overlooked or we all people have an image.
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We do that all the time. We have an image
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of our rock stars, politicians, even our own parents. That's
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not the whole truth. That's what it is to be
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a human is to fool yourself as much as possible
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to get on with your life and your day. Right. Um,
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but from the beginning, uh, Elvis, uh, his mother Gladys
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had a really hard birth. Uh, they were dirt poor.
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which was a huge effect, uh, influence on Elvis. They
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couldn't afford a hospital, couldn't afford a doctor. So they
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had to have Elvis at their little house in Tupelo, Mississippi. Um,
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Gladys had already premonitions that something was bad was going
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to happen. She had like a second sight and Elvis
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would inherit that. And we can break that down later. But, uh,
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Vernon went outside the dad to have a cigarette. And
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suddenly this blue light appears over their little house. And
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this light sort of freezes the wind. It stops all
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the sounds of nature like the coyotes. And Elvis sees
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this blue light. I mean, Vernon sees this blue light and,
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of course, freaks out. Is this a spaceship? Is this
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some herald from the heavens like we see with Jesus
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and Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan? All these historical
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figures all have some sort of comet or star above them.
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But Elvis goes, I mean, again, Vernon goes into the
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house and he probably forgot about it because he didn't
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mention it to Elvis later on when they both experienced
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a UFO encounter. Because unfortunately, Elvis's twin, Jesse, was stillborn
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and he didn't make it. And 35 minutes later, Elvis
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came out. And that right there was one of the
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probably the biggest event in Elvis's life. Because it's what
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we know as a twinless, he became a twinless survivor.
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It's a disorder where you feel like part of you
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is always missing. You were born with survivor's guilt. Like,
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why did, we had the same birth. Why did Jesse
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not make it? And it really drove him to everything, too.
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It set him on a quest for the bigger answers
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of life, trying to understand why the divine would do that,
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what is the purpose of a person if they survive.
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Jesse became almost like his daemon or higher self. He
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would appear to him in dreams and visions or as
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a gut feeling, as conscious. And it became huge for Elvis.
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The problem, too, is that Twinless survivors, and I compare
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them to others like Phil OK Dick and Liberace, they
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tend to be very creative, metaphysical people, but they also
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tend to be workaholics. They tend to be self-destructive. They
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are prone to addiction, and they have problems connecting to
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other people. So again, Elvis was almost meant to be
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Elvis from the beginning. And then, of course, as I
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talk about, he had... His mother was abusive in many ways.
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She was very possessive because of the death of Jesse,
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because she was told she couldn't have children after that.
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So she became so possessive that it really messed with
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Elvis's mind. It's what you call lethal enmeshment or enmeshment.
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He became like the proxy husband on one side, but
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the little child trying to run around and hide and
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trying to learn for himself. But ego boundaries were never set.
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And individuals like that, again, grow up to be, yes, alcoholics,
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drug addicts, workaholics, all that. So, again, Elvis had no
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choice to be Elvis. And she was very physically abusive
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to him. And that probably also that did damage to
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his psyche. But she gave Elvis second sight. So even
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at a young age, they had the family being from
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the Pentecostal background. They had the ability to heal. Elvis
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would talk about how he and his mother could astral
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travel and visit places, but had voices in their head.
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They had premonitions, but she always told them, don't tell anybody.
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We're in Tupelo, Mississippi in the 40s or 50s. This
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is our little secret. So All these things as a
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child already led Elvis to become Elvis. And he was
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always a very curious child, wondering about, again, metaphysics, about
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the meaning of life and all that.
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It's very interesting. I've had guests on even recently that
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discuss how childhood traumas, specifically traumatic births, can trigger these
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profound abilities in children and this connection to spiritual energies
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and things of that nature.
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For sure, for sure. Again, the Buddha said birth is
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a trauma. The Gnostics agreed that being thrown into this
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whatever prison planet or in a meat sack is like,
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what happened? It was so much better back there or
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in my past life. So, yeah, I mean, we've seen
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that whether you're watching Strange Things or reading on MKUltra, children...
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are more connected to the source, and if you can
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break them or manipulate them, they can bring these powers
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with them. And that's probably what helped Elvis and his
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supernatural abilities and his quest for fame. I also bring
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the idea of the wounded healer, which relates to this,
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and Paul Levy really writes a lot about it in
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his two books on Wetiko. But that's the idea that
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you find on all, and it's very MKUltra, that across
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all tribes around the world. The shaman is a child
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who had a terrible, well, had trauma, right? They either
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had a near-death experience, they almost died, something happened, they
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had a disease or a handicap, and they learn their
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channels of communication are open, and they become the best
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healer or the best shamans. They can go to the
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spirit world, they can heal And the wounded healer thus
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is broken in shamanism. And this individual heals not despite
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their wounds, but because of their wounds. It helps them.
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Their pain helps heal others. And they feel that if
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I lose my pain, if I get therapy, I will
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lose my ability to serve the tribe. And Elvis definitely
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fits this to a T, I would say. I call
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him America's Shaman. We see that with a lot of
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rock stars and entertainers. It's their pain and darkness. that
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helps us know ourselves and helps us heal in some
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way through their art and their music. So the wounded
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healer is an important theme throughout my book.
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Something else that's commonly known is Elvis was very into
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martial arts. Was this something that he picked up from
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an earlier age as well?
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He picked it up in the army because when he
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rose to fame in the fifties, he was, was all
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very loved, but he was also very hated. He was
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always jealous. Boyfriends and husbands would attack him. There was
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all throughout his career, there were blackmail and death threats
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coming to him. So in the army, he, you know,
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he was always carrying guns, but there were situations he
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might not be able to. So he said, and he
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didn't want to kill anybody. Right. Um, but so he
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started doing martial arts in Germany and, He got a
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black belt, I think, by 59, 60. And in those days,
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you have to remember martial arts were as rare as
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the occult. I think he was one of 100 black
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belts in a country that had 170 million people. So unknown, unheard.
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And martial arts was something that he kept at it.
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He got more black belts. You can go on YouTube
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and see Elvis doing karate. He was From the research
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I've done, he was a lethal weapon. There are times
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when he was able to use it to knock people
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down and kick people's butt when they attacked him or
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there was a fight or somebody charged the stage and
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so forth. And it became really part of his arsenal
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all the time. And there's a video I saw the
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other day when he's talking about to be able to withstand...
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blows and kicks you must go into your chi energy
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your prana it's what keeps us power and people are
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hitting him in the stomach and all that so yeah
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and like his occultism he made it cool to for
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martial arts to really enter the psyche of the United
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States in the late 60s and early 70s because he
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was so promoting and all that I mean he really
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opened the way for people like Bruce Lee and Chuck
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Norris and and David Carradine and all those cats.
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Talk a little bit about his rise to fame. Maybe
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some of the lesser known, more interesting aspects to bring
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him to be the global phenomena that he was.
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Well, it seems unlikely, right? You have this very poor
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kid in the depression. Then it's after World War II
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and he grows up to be a teenager. He doesn't
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know how to read or write music. Uh, people say, yeah,
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he's a good looking kid, but you know, he's okay. Talented,
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no big deal. And, uh, all of a sudden he
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somehow goes into sun records and, um, asks, there's a
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weird part. He asked for, he wanted to pay money
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to record a couple of records for his mom. He
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was actually studying to be an electrician. He was a
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truck driver, uh, He does it, but people go, wait
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a second, his mom didn't even own a record player.
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So what was going on here? But he's still hanging out,
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and eventually he gets a chance with Sam Phillips. Sam
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Phillips is putting this super group, and he decides, well,
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Elvis does have a voice. He's a good-looking kid. I'm
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going to try him out as the lead singer. And
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Elvis is bombing, and he's bombing all day. And finally
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Sam Phillips says, well, let's wrap it up. Sam Phillips
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goes to the next room to start shutting down equipment
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and suddenly something overcomes Elvis. And he starts playing this
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obscure song that only like somebody like Sam Phillips would
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have heard call. It's all right, mama. And he starts
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being Elvis, you know, the hips, the hiccups, mama, you know,
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and starts playing it. And Sam Phillips goes, that's the
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sound I have been looking all my life. This is
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the sound I want. That's going to change history. And
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he signs Elvis, and suddenly Elvis starts becoming very popular.
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And then Elvis signs up with Colonel Parker, and then suddenly, boom,
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rock and roll is created, and he becomes the biggest
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star in the world.
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Let's get into some of the mystical aspects of Elvis
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that most people might not be aware of, starting with
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some of the abilities that he's displayed here. Of course,
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we talked about his martial arts, but you also said
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he's very much into meditation. And at times, he displayed
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consciousness abilities that may indicate that he has psychic ability.
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For sure. Yeah, it's well-attested, everything that I'm telling you. Again,
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he was never alone. He was always with people that
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were reliable. But again, he had the ability to astral travel.
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He had the ability to heal people at a touch.
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He had premonitions. People talk about how Elvis could, you know,
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read the room or he understood what people felt or
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were thinking way before they even opened their mouths or
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started talking to him. So he had this amazing ability
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and astral travel is something he practiced all through his
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life along with meditation. Elvis was an introvert. Given his druthers,
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he would sit outside in his Graceland home or his
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mansion in L.A. and just sit outside, just sort of
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zoning out. And he said he could travel the worlds
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and come back. But once he really got into the occult,
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whatever that means, in the 60s, early 60s, and he
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started incorporating Hinduism like Yogananda and Buddhism, esoteric practices that
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he'd read from Theosophy and Manly P. Hall and other
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you know alternative spirituality luminaries he really started testing other
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abilities like his ability to move objects his ability to
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change the weather he can move clouds he could stop
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rain uh, his ability to, uh, create sort of like
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force fields and other things. And again, his healing continued.
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He could heal from, uh, small things like, like headaches.
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Priscilla always said he could just touch her head and
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heal her headaches. Uh, his, uh, grandmother had arthritis and
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he healed her. Um, but then there were bigger things.
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He was, uh, there are reports again, he wasn't alone
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that he healed broken legs, heart attacks, cancer, All manner
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of things. So definitely with Elvis, it was a magical
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life when he was around once he got into, once
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he found his mysticism.
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Am I right in saying that he displayed energetic abilities
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as well? The ability to make objects move around him?
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He did. And remember, he was never doing, or remember,
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To stress, he was never doing it to be like
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some guru or whatever. He had studied Yogananda, and Yogananda
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had always said, when you start getting close to God,
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you will have supernatural abilities. They're not the ends. They're
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not even the means. They're signs. Like in the Gospel
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of John, Jesus, he doesn't call them miracles. He calls
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them signs because when Jesus is healing and all that,
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It's not really to impress people. It's to tell them
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the kingdom of God is near, and I am the
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kingdom of God. So he did these things not to become, again,
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some sort of guru or dominate people or all that.
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He thought he was getting closer to God. And one
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of them is like he showed his bodyguard. He could
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look at some bushes and put his hand out, and
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the bushes would shake. Or he was with his girlfriend,
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Ginger Alden, in Hawaii, and He said, look, and he
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did this, again, magic thing and the clouds parted. And
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Ginger's like, well, maybe the wind and you're just, you know,
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he got lucky, right? If I wave at a cloud
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for a while, it'll move and I can say, ah,
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move that. But no, then he said, oh, but I
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can bring that cloud together. And he did this and
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the clouds came together. So he had these, I think
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my favorite story is, and because it's so American, so
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Elvis is, He was in his car, this brand-new luxury Pentera.
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I don't know what it is, some very expensive car
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in the 70s. And he was with his girlfriend, Linda Thompson.
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And they were going to go out on a date.
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They get in the car, and the car won't start.
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And Elvis is like, ugh. He gets out. He takes
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out his gun, and he shoots the car. He shoots
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the engine five times. And he gets in the car,
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and the car starts. And then he dries off. And
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his girlfriend's like, oh, my God, only Elvis could do that.
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That's awesome. You also account that he had some prophetic
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experiences and was able to foresee some things in the future,
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even about his own death?
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Yeah, he had, again, he had premonitions, he had visions.
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I mean, somebody to go that high in the stratosphere...
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fame and fortune, sometimes you got to take luck and
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talent off the table and say something is guiding this person.
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So a lot of his decisions, yeah, it was Colonel Parker,
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but a lot of the movements was him knowing, again,
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to read the room, where to pivot to, how to
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handle things. But he certainly always thought or he had
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visions that he was going to die young. Now we
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can say, you know, typical rock star, you know, hope
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I die before I get, oh, I'm going to die young. Well,
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we all did that when we were But he certainly
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had premonitions and told people before he died that this
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was going to happen. And two days before he passed
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on August 14, 1977, he called his stepbrother, David Stanley,
387
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up to talk to him. And Elvis is there in
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his bedroom reading all these books on the occult. And
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they have a chat. David wants to need some marriage advice.
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And Elvis says, you know, David, in two days, I'm
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going to be on a higher plane. And his stepbrother goes, oh, yeah,
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the only plane we're going to be on is a
393
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plane to Portland for a concert on the 16th. And
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Elvis sort of rolls his eyes like, yeah, you're not
395
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getting it, whatever. So he gives him a hug and whatever,
396
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and lo and behold, two days later, he was on
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a higher plane. He left the building forever, or at
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least the material building forever.
399
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:54.970
You also discuss his possible extraterrestrial encounters, UFO experiences. Tell
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00:24:55.009 --> 00:24:56.190
us a little bit about those.
401
00:24:58.470 --> 00:25:02.170
Yeah, those are quite a few. He was way ahead
402
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of the curve when it comes to ufology. He really
403
00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:10.150
speculated on all the different theories from the ancient alien
404
00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:15.250
theory to the aliens are helping us from destroying ourselves
405
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to are we star seeds? I mean, and he was
406
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reading anything you could on UFOlogy. He was a big Trekkie.
407
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He loved Star Trek and loved science fiction like 2001,
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A Space Odyssey and all that. But he certainly believed
409
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in all the alien stuff. He read like the Old
410
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Testament with Ezekiel and the wheels. and was like, this
411
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has got to be alien spacecraft. He read the book
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of Enoch and wondered, well, are these fallen angels or
413
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are they extraterrestrials? And I know the line is blurred
414
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today between religion and ufology, but back then it wasn't.
415
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But Elvis was already blurring that line big time. And
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lo and behold, he did have three UFO experiences. One
417
00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:03.970
was at his Bel Air home. LA he was out
418
00:26:04.130 --> 00:26:08.319
with his bodyguard Sonny West and this light came over
419
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the house similar to what Vernon did and at first
420
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they're like it's a helicopter or a plane and then
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they're like oh my god it doesn't make any sound
422
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it's right over us it's flooding the tree lines with
423
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the eerie light so Elvis tells his bodyguard go get
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my other bodyguard and friend Jerry Schilling and let's go
425
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chase this thing and Sonny West goes in, they both
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come out and they're like, Elvis is gone. And they're like,
427
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oh my God, we had one job and now they've
428
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.759
abducted our boss. We're in so much trouble. So they
429
00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:43.480
run around and finally the light starts to disappear. And
430
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they hear Elvis, I'm over here. And he's in the
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neighbor's yard, like looking at the sky. The other one
432
00:26:49.819 --> 00:26:53.789
was in, when he wouldn't fly and he had to
433
00:26:53.829 --> 00:26:56.769
do movies, he would take these motor homes from Memphis
434
00:26:56.809 --> 00:27:01.650
to LA and in Arizona, they saw these lights doing
435
00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:07.369
all this incredible movements and acrobatics or whatever. And they
436
00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:10.740
jumped out of their motor homes, Elvis and his Memphis mafia.
437
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:14.299
And they just stared. And, uh, once somebody said, well,
438
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:16.940
is this ours? And they're like, no, this cannot be
439
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:21.380
experimental craft. Our, our government cannot do these things right now.
440
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:23.900
You know, the lights moving at an incredible speed and
441
00:27:23.900 --> 00:27:28.369
90 degree angles and all that. And then they disappeared.
442
00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:31.019
And Elvis was like, Ooh, well, it looks like we
443
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.799
better keep this a secret, but it looks like they're busy.
444
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.640
They're stopping us from destroying ourselves. And one bodyguard goes, well,
445
00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:41.680
how did they communicate? And Elvis is like, oh, through telepathy.
446
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He believed in telepathy. And the other one was in Graceland.
447
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:51.289
And that was when a saucer shape, the traditional saucer
448
00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:55.150
shape appeared over the house. And he was with his father, Vernon,
449
00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:57.609
and they saw it go by and move around. And
450
00:27:57.630 --> 00:28:01.329
that's when Vernon, like, remembered the blue light over his
451
00:28:01.349 --> 00:28:04.369
house when he was born, and he told Elvis, and
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00:28:04.410 --> 00:28:06.910
Elvis was like, well, am I an alien? Oh, my God,
453
00:28:06.950 --> 00:28:11.950
you know? So those are the three ones. There's one
454
00:28:11.990 --> 00:28:16.130
that's possible when he was in Colorado, and he was
455
00:28:16.650 --> 00:28:20.960
at his house, again, with his entourage, and this blue, again,
456
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.920
it always seems to be blue with Elvis, this blue light.
457
00:28:24.339 --> 00:28:27.319
This blue comet starts making all these rounds and it
458
00:28:27.380 --> 00:28:29.900
hits part of a mountain and destroys half of the
459
00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:33.069
mountain or part of the mountain. And everybody freaked out
460
00:28:33.130 --> 00:28:35.690
except for Elvis. He was like, oh, cool, and just
461
00:28:35.750 --> 00:28:36.369
went to bed.
462
00:28:37.549 --> 00:28:43.099
All the occult practices and high strangeness surrounding Elvis aside,
463
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:48.839
he had this profoundly magical effect on people and audiences
464
00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:52.160
that until that point we had never really seen.
465
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Before, right? Yeah, again, he is the wounded healer. And
466
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because he's a wounded healer, I do call him America's shaman.
467
00:29:02.970 --> 00:29:06.630
When the United States came out of World War II,
468
00:29:08.349 --> 00:29:11.289
it was at a crossroads. And I call Elvis also
469
00:29:11.349 --> 00:29:14.410
the Lord of the Crossroads because we went from.
470
00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:20.259
We went from suddenly this republic to this empire. We
471
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:25.980
went from standard gender norms to suddenly a different place
472
00:29:26.019 --> 00:29:29.640
where women and men would deal with each other. We
473
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.089
went through low technology to suddenly all this high technology
474
00:29:33.130 --> 00:29:37.390
like nuclear bombs and mass media and satellites. We went
475
00:29:37.430 --> 00:29:43.720
through just having traditional spirit to embracing alternative spirituality. We
476
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:46.400
went to more or less, this is the way the
477
00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:50.009
races are to suddenly a more mixed race America where
478
00:29:50.049 --> 00:29:55.130
we could start seeking black music and Hispanic music and all.
479
00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:59.119
And so America was at a crossroads and everywhere you look,
480
00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:03.200
somehow Elvis is there leading the charge on this. I mean,
481
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.720
Elvis changed the way men and women treated each other.
482
00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:11.210
Elvis changed the way music was absorbed and what kind
483
00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:15.549
of music he could play. Elvis really understood how to
484
00:30:15.710 --> 00:30:19.099
use mass media and technology. He was just He was
485
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.460
at the forefront and also at their right when this
486
00:30:22.539 --> 00:30:26.279
country changed, but he was also part of the healing process.
487
00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:29.759
He was the one that brought this spirituality. I don't
488
00:30:29.779 --> 00:30:33.440
think it's entertainment called rock music to the world. And
489
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.220
it was a way that teenagers could cope and heal
490
00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:41.869
and understand better what this brave new world of UFOs
491
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:46.470
and Soviets and, television and everything. And Elvis was there
492
00:30:46.910 --> 00:30:50.779
leading the charge. As I say, he was the representation
493
00:30:50.859 --> 00:30:55.039
of the American dream, the egregore of the American dream
494
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.299
personified in a human being. He was the Pied Piper
495
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:02.289
who led the people like Hermes or other tricksters leading
496
00:31:02.349 --> 00:31:05.289
people to a new age of the coyote. And it's
497
00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:10.849
always Elvis and Elvis definitely represents what post-war America is
498
00:31:10.869 --> 00:31:14.359
and The good, the bad, the shadow, the light, everything else.
499
00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:18.279
So he was, yeah, I mean, rock music, as I say,
500
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:20.559
was never meant to be a form of entertainment. It's
501
00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:25.400
a fusion of the blues, and the blues taps into
502
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.950
African animism, and they simply rename these African trickster gods
503
00:31:31.009 --> 00:31:35.529
as the devil. But it's a very spiritual type of movement.
504
00:31:35.609 --> 00:31:37.930
And the other one was gospel, which Elvis was very
505
00:31:37.990 --> 00:31:43.369
much into, the Pentecostal, experiential gospel. And these two fused
506
00:31:43.789 --> 00:31:46.910
into this religion called rock music. If you look at
507
00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:51.430
the pioneers of rock music, whether it's Johnny Cash, Jerry
508
00:31:51.470 --> 00:31:57.369
Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Elvis, they were pastors, shamans before
509
00:31:57.410 --> 00:32:00.369
they were musicians. They were very much into the sort
510
00:32:00.390 --> 00:32:09.410
of spirituality. And even the term rock comes from Pentecostalism.
511
00:32:10.029 --> 00:32:12.710
whenever you would be in the 40s and 30s, if
512
00:32:12.750 --> 00:32:16.569
you were gripped by the Holy Spirit and went into
513
00:32:16.589 --> 00:32:19.519
an altered state of mind and you started like, you know,
514
00:32:19.619 --> 00:32:22.940
shaking in the aisles and whatever, it was called rock
515
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.660
and rolling. And when music critics would see Elvis and
516
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.119
Jerry Lee Lewis at their shows, whatever they go, this
517
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.930
is a holy tent revival. This is like a Pentecostal church,
518
00:32:34.990 --> 00:32:38.480
but Instead of saying Jesus, they say baby, baby. So
519
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.180
rock music was always a form of spirituality, a form
520
00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:45.839
of shamanism. And we all know that we, you know,
521
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:49.990
whether it's the Doors or the Grateful Dead or Led Zeppelin,
522
00:32:50.430 --> 00:32:53.369
when we go to these concerts, we go for an experience.
523
00:32:53.410 --> 00:32:55.710
We go there to heal. We go to connect with
524
00:32:55.750 --> 00:33:00.279
this high priest and get energy from everybody. So When
525
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.200
you see rock music as a form of spirituality in
526
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:07.960
this post-war new empire, suddenly Elvis makes more sense.
527
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:14.609
You also discuss his profound ability to come to the
528
00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:18.529
brink of losing everything, all his money, and then go
529
00:33:18.630 --> 00:33:21.970
on tour and just gain it all right back, right?
530
00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:26.869
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was, again, he lived in
531
00:33:26.950 --> 00:33:31.140
a poverty that we could only imagine today. Very poor.
532
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:36.579
Some nights his family only had enough money for bread
533
00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:40.880
and cornbread. I mean, water and cornbread. His dad spent
534
00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:43.500
time in jail and they lost their house. They were homeless.
535
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:49.170
I mean, they were dirt, dirt poor. And when he
536
00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:53.049
became once once they moved from Tupelo to Memphis, things
537
00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:56.170
got better, but they still lived in the projects. It
538
00:33:56.210 --> 00:33:59.150
was still, they weren't exactly middle class, not by a
539
00:33:59.190 --> 00:34:03.309
long shot. So when he became famous, he really did
540
00:34:03.349 --> 00:34:05.470
it for his family. He did it so his mom
541
00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:08.780
wouldn't worry, did it for his dad, for his cousins,
542
00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:13.480
his aunts, all that. And he made millions of dollars.
543
00:34:13.539 --> 00:34:15.860
I mean, for us, I mean, back then, it would
544
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.519
be like making tens of millions of dollars. And I
545
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:25.349
think in his whole career, It's estimated that from 55
546
00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:30.420
to 77, he made about $ 4 billion. So adjusted for inflation,
547
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.000
he made like 20, 30. We're talking like Elon Musk
548
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.769
money or tech CEO money. But he blew it a lot.
549
00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:45.690
He was supporting almost an entire city. He was very
550
00:34:45.789 --> 00:34:51.449
giving beyond his authority. philanthropy he used to just give
551
00:34:51.530 --> 00:34:55.449
things to people he'd buy like fleets of motorcycles and
552
00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:58.050
hand them out to his friends if if he heard
553
00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:01.219
like a farmer friend of him his tractor broke down
554
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.159
he'd just buy him his tractor if a friend needed
555
00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:06.699
a down payment on the house he'd write the check
556
00:35:06.739 --> 00:35:10.400
he just uh He just gave it away because, A,
557
00:35:10.889 --> 00:35:14.210
you know, he always said, you know, I came from poverty.
558
00:35:14.269 --> 00:35:16.130
I want to help others. I don't want people to
559
00:35:16.190 --> 00:35:18.929
suffer like I did. But he also knew he's like,
560
00:35:18.949 --> 00:35:20.789
you know, if I lose the money, I'll just make
561
00:35:20.829 --> 00:35:25.469
it again. He had confidence that he could be broke
562
00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:28.110
at a time or only have a million dollars in
563
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.760
the bank. But he was confident he could then go
564
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:33.920
on tour and all that. But it did weigh on
565
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:38.590
him eventually. the workaholism and the pressure really started getting
566
00:35:38.619 --> 00:35:41.869
to him and that started affecting his health and he
567
00:35:41.909 --> 00:35:45.150
started leaning on more pills. And then, you know, you know,
568
00:35:45.170 --> 00:35:47.670
the story started breaking down in the seventies.
569
00:35:48.710 --> 00:35:53.400
Talk a little bit about his relationship with the Colonel.
570
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.159
Some of the things that may be lesser known that
571
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.619
may have led to his ultimate downfall.
572
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.380
Well, yeah, that's certainly such a debate. There's many books
573
00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:12.139
on this. I mean, even Bass Lerman's movie, Big Hit,
574
00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:19.380
it's all through the eyes of the colonel. But the colonel,
575
00:36:20.260 --> 00:36:24.079
he was an illegal immigrant. He was a carny. And
576
00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:27.380
somehow he saw something in Elvis when Elvis was getting big.
577
00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:30.539
And there was something that just clicked with the two.
578
00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:36.429
As Elvis's spiritual teacher said, they hated each other, but
579
00:36:36.469 --> 00:36:40.130
they loved power more. So as I show in the
580
00:36:40.190 --> 00:36:45.000
book through many lenses, in alchemy, you've got Mercury, this
581
00:36:45.099 --> 00:36:49.320
creative chaotic power, which was Elvis, but you need Saturn.
582
00:36:49.420 --> 00:36:52.440
You need the numbers and the boundaries to make sure
583
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:58.360
your alchemy works together in the laboratory. Parker was Saturn
584
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:02.360
and Elvis was Mercury. Or when you read Rudolf Steiner,
585
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:05.480
he talks about Lucifer and Ahriman. You've got the creative
586
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:10.090
artist's fire going crazy. And then you've got this mechanistic
587
00:37:10.769 --> 00:37:16.250
left brain kind of force. And they're both bad, alone, destructive.
588
00:37:16.309 --> 00:37:19.170
But if you can get them together, you can create
589
00:37:19.190 --> 00:37:21.989
this sort of Christ power and the world is in balance.
590
00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:24.719
So they were good for each other. Let's put it
591
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:27.300
that way. I don't think Elvis could have been As
592
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.679
famous as he did, I don't think Parker would have
593
00:37:29.739 --> 00:37:36.130
ever been anything without Elvis. But their relationship has certainly
594
00:37:36.170 --> 00:37:39.989
had tension in the, what, 22 years that they worked
595
00:37:40.010 --> 00:37:42.269
together or 20 years that they worked together. There was
596
00:37:42.329 --> 00:37:47.039
ups and downs and firings and accusations. Elvis never found
597
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:51.699
out he was an illegal immigrant until he died. That
598
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:55.420
just came out later. And people always wonder, well, why
599
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.769
didn't Elvis tour He could have made another $ 10 billion
600
00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:03.090
if he could have gone to Japan or London or
601
00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:07.420
something like that. Some say it's because Parker was afraid
602
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.860
to step away from the United States. He'd get nabbed
603
00:38:11.019 --> 00:38:12.960
at the border. You know, it would come out that
604
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.360
he's an illegal immigrant.
605
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:18.219
In the book, you also make a comparison with Elvis
606
00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:19.239
to Philip K.
607
00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:19.719
Dick.
608
00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:21.070
Tell us a little bit about that.
609
00:38:23.690 --> 00:38:25.699
Yeah, I bring up Philip K. Dick because as the...
610
00:38:26.909 --> 00:38:31.469
voice was coming to me suddenly Philip K. Dick came
611
00:38:31.530 --> 00:38:33.230
to me and I was like there's no way that
612
00:38:33.429 --> 00:38:36.750
Elvis this famous rock star and Philip K. Dick who's
613
00:38:36.789 --> 00:38:39.670
obviously one of the most impactful sci-fi writers of our
614
00:38:39.750 --> 00:38:43.659
time could have any parallels right I mean one's a
615
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:47.599
you know kind of a California beatnik libertarian other one's
616
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:52.599
a Tennessee southern boy who walks around with guns but
617
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:56.400
then I realized oh my god their parallels are Incredible.
618
00:38:56.460 --> 00:38:59.880
I mean, the main one is Philip K. Dick also
619
00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:03.650
lost his twin at birth, Jane. And Philip K. Dick
620
00:39:03.690 --> 00:39:06.210
said it was the most important event of his life.
621
00:39:06.250 --> 00:39:10.269
He says all his science fiction was always his search
622
00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:13.190
for Jane and trying to understand who Jane was and
623
00:39:13.230 --> 00:39:16.590
why it happened to her. Just like everything Elvis did,
624
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:22.599
Jesse was in the background driving him. And I started
625
00:39:22.659 --> 00:39:25.679
finding so many other parallels. I mean, They were from
626
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:30.960
the same generation. They both were very much into grabbing
627
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:34.420
into all these religions and bringing them together. They were
628
00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:37.239
both kind of made their own Gnostic religion with a
629
00:39:37.309 --> 00:39:43.429
cosmic Christ. Both believed in reincarnation. Both had issues with
630
00:39:43.530 --> 00:39:47.400
drugs and pills. Both had big problems with pills and
631
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:50.619
were taking amphetamines even towards the end of their life.
632
00:39:51.300 --> 00:39:57.030
Both because of, again... Philip K. Dick had an abusive mother. Both, again,
633
00:39:57.070 --> 00:40:00.750
had problems with women and connecting with others at times.
634
00:40:00.809 --> 00:40:06.599
Both were self-destructive. Philip K. Dick had his own extraterrestrial
635
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:10.800
experiences and mystic abilities. On and on, I go through
636
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:14.860
the book, how both were really destined to be who
637
00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:18.550
they were. Both changed history in their own way. And
638
00:40:18.610 --> 00:40:24.659
both were profoundly spiritual people. intelligent men who just burned out,
639
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:26.420
self-destructed in the end.
640
00:40:26.619 --> 00:40:31.119
You mentioned earlier the death of Elvis and some of
641
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:34.050
the things that may have led up to that. Would
642
00:40:34.070 --> 00:40:38.469
you say that the mainstream narrative that we've heard throughout
643
00:40:38.889 --> 00:40:43.469
our recent history is pretty accurate about the death of Elvis,
644
00:40:43.969 --> 00:40:48.800
the drug abuse, aneurysm on the toilet, things like that?
645
00:40:48.860 --> 00:40:49.940
Is this all accurate?
646
00:40:52.530 --> 00:40:55.969
Yes and no. There are many ways. I mean, Elvis
647
00:40:56.030 --> 00:40:59.409
is always an enigma. So you find out, yeah, okay,
648
00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:03.250
so he was abusing drugs. He was having a lot
649
00:41:03.329 --> 00:41:11.730
of health problems like glaucoma, gut problems. He had, what
650
00:41:11.769 --> 00:41:15.070
else did he have? He had a lot of health
651
00:41:15.110 --> 00:41:17.460
problems that he'd had from youth that were just getting
652
00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:21.010
worse as he got older and his workaholism wasn't helping him.
653
00:41:22.250 --> 00:41:25.389
He had some mental issues and all that. And did
654
00:41:25.429 --> 00:41:30.510
he break down? Except then you research and you see
655
00:41:30.550 --> 00:41:33.760
that on the day he died, he was playing racquetball
656
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:37.619
for hours with friends. Does that sound like a junkie?
657
00:41:37.940 --> 00:41:41.690
Or two days before he was riding his Harley through Memphis.
658
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:46.260
Who is a drug addict with bad health could drive
659
00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:50.809
his Harley? That's a big bike to handle, right? So
660
00:41:51.309 --> 00:41:54.929
there is an enigma about that. And I don't think
661
00:41:55.010 --> 00:41:57.570
we will ever truly know. It's such a mystery. When
662
00:41:57.610 --> 00:42:02.420
these great figures, whether these figures that have become mythologies
663
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:06.300
like King Arthur or Jesus or anything, it becomes, again,
664
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:09.619
it's almost you see what you want to see. I mean,
665
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:12.570
there are stories that he might have been murdered by
666
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.710
Colonel Parker. He was thinking of rebooting his life. and
667
00:42:16.789 --> 00:42:22.329
starting over instead of trying to do more smaller independent movies, make,
668
00:42:22.389 --> 00:42:25.429
you know, make his music better. There's a story that
669
00:42:25.449 --> 00:42:28.829
he asked David Bowie to produce his album. So he could,
670
00:42:29.050 --> 00:42:31.170
Bowie could kind of give him, you know, Bowie was
671
00:42:31.210 --> 00:42:34.659
like a genius producer in those days. He was changing
672
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.079
his will. He was going to get rid of Colonel Parker.
673
00:42:37.099 --> 00:42:39.599
So Parker was like, I'm going to get rid of
674
00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:41.980
this guy. Then there are stories that he went on
675
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.960
the witness protection program, which I don't think it is.
676
00:42:45.610 --> 00:42:48.550
He was connected to the DA. He was connected to
677
00:42:48.590 --> 00:42:51.719
the mob. With Elvis, it's always like two things. He
678
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.219
can hold all these extremes. Have you noticed? He could
679
00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:58.699
be friends with the mob and friends with the U.S. government.
680
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.260
That's the life of Elvis. So it could have been
681
00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:06.519
the mob. Was it his heart? I don't know, but
682
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.219
it was hard. And there were so many strange things
683
00:43:09.260 --> 00:43:11.679
that happened during his death, as it would if somebody
684
00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:17.429
of such a stature... Two days when he was buried, 50,000
685
00:43:17.429 --> 00:43:21.130
people showed up at the funeral. Imagine the chaos there.
686
00:43:21.789 --> 00:43:26.760
The autopsies, there were issues, as there often are. Many
687
00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:29.840
stories were already coming out that he was appearing in
688
00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:35.429
different places. It was chaos. It's hard even to find
689
00:43:35.469 --> 00:43:37.969
the truth. I think he did leave the building. I
690
00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:42.969
think his material form did pass. And I think he
691
00:43:43.010 --> 00:43:46.050
knew it. Again, we predicted how he knew it. And
692
00:43:46.090 --> 00:43:49.150
I show in the book that that day that he died,
693
00:43:49.409 --> 00:43:54.659
he did this very long ritual. The songs he was playing,
694
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:58.800
what he was telling people, what he was dressing in blue.
695
00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:01.920
He had his Egyptian ankh that he loved. And it
696
00:44:01.940 --> 00:44:05.510
was all a ritual because he knew he was leaving
697
00:44:06.070 --> 00:44:09.710
Earth back to the mothership, if you would. And Even
698
00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:13.969
the toilet thing is disputed because there are issues with
699
00:44:13.989 --> 00:44:18.050
the story. And we have to remember, somebody like Elvis
700
00:44:18.250 --> 00:44:22.150
could never be alone because he always had bodyguards and
701
00:44:22.170 --> 00:44:24.429
lawyers and all that. The only place he could be
702
00:44:24.489 --> 00:44:28.010
alone is in his bathroom. And that's the one place
703
00:44:28.030 --> 00:44:30.079
where he used to like to read and talk to
704
00:44:30.139 --> 00:44:35.340
friends about the occult, where he had privacy and all that.
705
00:44:35.380 --> 00:44:38.360
And remember, his bathroom was probably as big as our houses, right?
706
00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:43.670
So he had a barbershop chair there too, which he
707
00:44:43.710 --> 00:44:46.690
was known to read books. And when they found him,
708
00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:50.809
he had this book about the Shroud of Turin with him,
709
00:44:51.150 --> 00:44:54.130
which is strange. It's like Elvis is going to meet Jesus.
710
00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:58.250
See the symbolism? It's called the face of Jesus. So
711
00:44:58.869 --> 00:45:02.159
even the, you know, I crap myself story has a
712
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:05.360
lot of holes in them. So I try to, I
713
00:45:05.380 --> 00:45:08.840
give the evidence and the different possibilities and the Your
714
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.800
guess is as good as mine. Believe what you want.
715
00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:14.219
So based on your research, it's probably not likely that
716
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:18.239
he staged his death and is living now as Bob Joyce,
717
00:45:18.929 --> 00:45:21.849
this preacher in Kentucky or wherever he's from.
718
00:45:21.869 --> 00:45:24.730
I love it. Yeah, I love that. I love all
719
00:45:24.789 --> 00:45:28.389
the conspiracy theories. They're fun. They're great rabbit hole. I
720
00:45:28.429 --> 00:45:32.360
don't see that. I think somebody very astutely said, oh,
721
00:45:32.369 --> 00:45:34.489
before that, yeah, another one too, which I love is
722
00:45:34.530 --> 00:45:38.449
that he he went to buenos aires what is he
723
00:45:38.469 --> 00:45:40.989
going to go hang out with uh nazis or something
724
00:45:41.949 --> 00:45:44.860
why and people were convinced of it because he he
725
00:45:44.889 --> 00:45:47.380
had used his alias at the airport he had an
726
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.820
alias when he was traveling except if you just take
727
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.099
a look you realize there was no direct flight from
728
00:45:53.139 --> 00:45:57.320
memphis to buenos aires in 77. so they're fun things
729
00:45:57.380 --> 00:46:03.010
but elvis i don't think would have ever left his
730
00:46:03.090 --> 00:46:06.409
daughter Lisa Marie or his father Vernon or his grandmother.
731
00:46:06.809 --> 00:46:10.789
He would have taken them with him or done something
732
00:46:10.849 --> 00:46:14.250
and vanished, but he would have never left his daughter.
733
00:46:14.369 --> 00:46:18.730
He would have rather died. So I don't see him hiding.
734
00:46:19.269 --> 00:46:21.630
Or he would have just told the world. As I
735
00:46:21.670 --> 00:46:24.659
write in the book, in the 60s, he almost quit twice,
736
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:28.219
wants to become a Christian monk and wants to become
737
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:30.619
a Hindu monk. And he was very, he was like,
738
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:33.880
I'm done with the entertainment business. It's empty. I hate it.
739
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.320
But he had to be talked out of it because
740
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:39.340
people were like, you know, we need you to survive.
741
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.260
You're the breadwinner of thousands of people.
742
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:47.719
You mentioned the mob earlier. Some have speculated that he
743
00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:50.619
may have had some sort of secret relationship with the
744
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:54.449
FBI to take down the mob. Have you come across
745
00:46:54.510 --> 00:46:58.309
anything like this in your research? I have.
746
00:46:58.369 --> 00:47:01.909
And yeah, there was this big organization. I don't remember
747
00:47:01.949 --> 00:47:04.829
the name of it. And they were doing some crazy
748
00:47:04.889 --> 00:47:08.449
scams and the FBI had them on the radar. And
749
00:47:08.469 --> 00:47:12.860
I think they actually busted this mob ring right when
750
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:16.269
he died. And the problem with this is that They
751
00:47:16.289 --> 00:47:19.440
were scamming Elvis or they were doing a deal with
752
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:22.639
Elvis over one of his airplanes. But Elvis had told
753
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:24.679
his dad, this is your project. I don't want to
754
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:26.880
deal with it. You know what I mean? Elvis was
755
00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:29.619
not even attached because, you know, this is a guy
756
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:32.239
who didn't even carry around a wallet. He simply said,
757
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.219
you know, take care of it. He was rarely directly
758
00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:41.710
involved in accounting stuff or whatever. He just told his dad,
759
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:44.900
Get rid of this airplane. Is that, well, I'm going
760
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.360
to talk to these people. And Elvis is like, okay, whatever.
761
00:47:47.500 --> 00:47:52.630
So I don't think he really was connected to that.
762
00:47:53.030 --> 00:47:54.949
It wouldn't be like Elvis to do these things.
763
00:47:55.769 --> 00:48:00.510
Earlier you mentioned the Beatles and Jim Morrison. Are you
764
00:48:00.570 --> 00:48:06.119
planning on doing any future writing that delves into these
765
00:48:06.179 --> 00:48:08.039
groups and anything surrounding that?
766
00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:13.199
As a matter of fact, I am. Not Jim Morrison.
767
00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:16.110
I think Paul Wilde, who's been on my show a
768
00:48:16.139 --> 00:48:19.210
couple of times, and hopefully you can get him on yours.
769
00:48:19.230 --> 00:48:21.849
He just put out a book on the occult Jim Morrison.
770
00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:26.010
So great book. And it shows, again, Jim Morrison's intelligence
771
00:48:26.070 --> 00:48:28.969
and depth and mystic. I mean, it'll give you a
772
00:48:29.260 --> 00:48:33.340
good view. And all the stories of Jim Morrison, a
773
00:48:33.380 --> 00:48:36.219
lot of them are just tales. He was a very
774
00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:40.679
deep thinker. But when I finished the Elvis book, I
775
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:42.559
was like, oh, I don't want everyone to, you know,
776
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:45.840
am I done Elvis? Can I now, my 15 minutes
777
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:48.219
as a biographer are over. I can get back to
778
00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:51.800
my life. And another voice came to me and is like, no,
779
00:48:51.940 --> 00:48:54.409
we got Elvis 2.0. It's like, there can't be an
780
00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:57.769
Elvis 2.0. And lo and behold, there was. David Bowie.
781
00:48:58.349 --> 00:49:00.730
And I said, there's no way. And it's, oh, you know,
782
00:49:01.070 --> 00:49:05.320
it's like the downloads of The Matrix. Oh, David Bowie
783
00:49:05.340 --> 00:49:07.869
and Elvis were born on the same day. Oh, they
784
00:49:07.889 --> 00:49:11.710
both grew up in poverty. Oh, they both had abusive mothers. Oh,
785
00:49:12.190 --> 00:49:17.570
extraterrestrial encounters. You know, sometimes it's the same life and
786
00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:20.219
they both had the same sort of out of... out
787
00:49:20.260 --> 00:49:26.360
of uh higher space interstellar message to humanity david boy
788
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:30.449
is more about the world and all of civilization you
789
00:49:30.469 --> 00:49:33.050
know the starman and elvis is more about the soul
790
00:49:33.090 --> 00:49:36.230
of america but it's they're the same figure and as
791
00:49:36.309 --> 00:49:39.199
i mentioned They knew each other. They knew each other.
792
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:41.039
They almost worked together.
793
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:45.579
You were saying earlier how rock and roll is really
794
00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:52.219
derived from this African animism, which is very spiritually based.
795
00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:55.659
And we look at in the 60s, 70s, 80s, how
796
00:49:55.679 --> 00:50:02.750
rock music was declared satanic. Do you believe that this
797
00:50:02.869 --> 00:50:08.170
is based off of that sort of energy that comes
798
00:50:08.449 --> 00:50:12.809
out of the music and it was just transmuted into
799
00:50:12.869 --> 00:50:15.820
something that we call Satanism?
800
00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:25.119
Definitely. I mean, when Elvis came out, he was so popular,
801
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:28.639
but he completely ended the status quo. He was dangerous.
802
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:34.579
This music about uh being free sexually spiritually you can
803
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:38.829
rub shoulders with who you want and exposing yourself on
804
00:50:38.869 --> 00:50:42.050
the dance floor and it was spiritual again but it
805
00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:47.630
was very dionysian very ecstatic i mean people hated pentecostalism
806
00:50:47.769 --> 00:50:51.780
or other christian religions didn't like pentecostalism in the 40s
807
00:50:51.820 --> 00:50:54.860
and 30s because they say it's just mixing up jesus
808
00:50:54.940 --> 00:50:57.760
and sex because you know you're rolling around and men
809
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:01.130
and women are like you know going into these, uh,
810
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:04.320
fits and all that. So rock and roll, yeah. Through
811
00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:06.940
the status quo was like a lead balloon. I mean,
812
00:51:06.980 --> 00:51:09.360
people like Frank Sinatra was like, this is a pan,
813
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:13.559
a flash in the pan. It sucks. Uh, uh, Billy Graham,
814
00:51:13.579 --> 00:51:18.389
the great evangelical exemplar denounced rock music and Elvis, Elvis,
815
00:51:18.429 --> 00:51:20.650
his own pastor turned on him and said, you've been
816
00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:24.869
possessed by Satan. So it freaked people out probably mainly
817
00:51:24.889 --> 00:51:28.539
because again, anything that, uh, breaks down the status quo
818
00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:30.760
is always seen as a danger. I mean, people in
819
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:35.489
the government were already investigating Elvis. He had, like Jim Morrison,
820
00:51:35.530 --> 00:51:38.429
there was one concert where the judge said, if you
821
00:51:38.469 --> 00:51:41.769
shake your hips, you are going to be arrested. And
822
00:51:41.809 --> 00:51:45.869
that's a famous one where, unlike Jim Morrison, who got arrested,
823
00:51:46.730 --> 00:51:49.530
Elvis stood up and is like, I can't dance, folks.
824
00:51:49.610 --> 00:51:51.730
Judd's going to throw me in jail. And But will
825
00:51:51.750 --> 00:51:53.590
you throw me in jail if I shake my hand?
826
00:51:53.809 --> 00:51:57.210
The whole concert, Elvis just did this, the entire concert.
827
00:51:57.250 --> 00:52:01.670
But he was very hated by the status quo. And
828
00:52:01.730 --> 00:52:05.369
he was very burned by his churches. He thought, these
829
00:52:05.429 --> 00:52:08.230
guys don't understand me. And he looked at them and
830
00:52:08.250 --> 00:52:10.550
he said, you guys are just a business. You're as
831
00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:14.889
corrupt as the Pharisees in the New Testament. By then,
832
00:52:14.929 --> 00:52:19.159
he didn't believe in hell anymore. He believed in reincarnation.
833
00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.820
So he was burned. Eventually, that was one of the
834
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:27.579
reasons he eventually started studying other things. But yeah, rock
835
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:34.820
music was certainly, it should be a powerful individualistic, spiritual, emphatic,
836
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.400
you care for the tribe, you care for your people,
837
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:41.940
and metaphysical movement for sure. But yeah, we know how
838
00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:43.800
that goes with the powers that be, right?
839
00:52:43.820 --> 00:52:44.280
Right, yeah.
840
00:52:44.860 --> 00:52:49.039
How do you feel about our modern music industry, where
841
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:54.239
rock music itself has gone? Many believe that there's aspects
842
00:52:54.500 --> 00:53:01.679
of weaponization to our music to intentionally cause these mental
843
00:53:01.780 --> 00:53:06.800
afflictions and addictions and attraction to dark things. What are
844
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:07.579
your thoughts on that?
845
00:53:09.460 --> 00:53:12.199
I think there's an argument to be made. Yeah, for sure.
846
00:53:12.260 --> 00:53:16.690
I mean, number one, Everything casts a shadow. Number two,
847
00:53:16.769 --> 00:53:20.360
as we've learned in history, anything that can be weaponized,
848
00:53:20.699 --> 00:53:23.659
it's going to be weaponized. Somebody in the government or
849
00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:27.610
secret service is going to get their claws into it.
850
00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:32.300
It's just the nature of civilization in general. So I
851
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:35.030
wouldn't be, I mean, Elvis obviously was way ahead of
852
00:53:35.070 --> 00:53:37.730
the curve and I think he was before anybody could
853
00:53:37.769 --> 00:53:41.090
really get to him. Same with the first pioneers of
854
00:53:41.150 --> 00:53:45.829
rock music, Johnny Cash, all those guys. But then later on, yeah,
855
00:53:45.869 --> 00:53:49.920
I think probably there were some forces that wanted to
856
00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:54.719
corrupt this music. Like you said, debase society, corrupt, really
857
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:59.679
corrupt the mind through drugs and all that. And yeah,
858
00:54:00.010 --> 00:54:02.909
I think there's an argument. I mean, for me, it's heartbreaking.
859
00:54:02.929 --> 00:54:05.469
I told you I'm a Beatles person. But when you
860
00:54:05.530 --> 00:54:09.190
see when Elvis came out and these women are freaking out, teenagers,
861
00:54:09.210 --> 00:54:13.030
I mean, they're discovering their own power, not just their sexuality,
862
00:54:13.070 --> 00:54:17.570
but their choice, their agency. And like Eve biting the apple,
863
00:54:17.590 --> 00:54:20.550
it's like, if I'm awake as a woman, I can
864
00:54:20.710 --> 00:54:23.309
tap more into my mind, into my emotion. So he
865
00:54:23.329 --> 00:54:25.769
was literally, but they're going crazy at these concerts. He
866
00:54:25.789 --> 00:54:29.159
almost got killed a few times. I mean, like Dionysus
867
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:32.739
ripped apart by the main ads and it was all
868
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:35.500
organic the way he just, cause it was such a surprise.
869
00:54:35.579 --> 00:54:40.280
It hit everybody. from left field. The world couldn't know
870
00:54:40.340 --> 00:54:42.590
what to do with somebody like Elvis and these other
871
00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:45.250
rock stars that came on. But then, then I find
872
00:54:45.309 --> 00:54:47.889
out when the Beatles came out and you see these, uh,
873
00:54:48.389 --> 00:54:52.230
these shots of women screaming at the airport and it's all,
874
00:54:52.550 --> 00:54:56.570
that's all fake. They're paid actors. And that's heartbreaking because
875
00:54:56.610 --> 00:54:59.309
by then it's like to be the next Elvis, we
876
00:54:59.329 --> 00:55:02.429
need screaming girls in the audience and all that. So,
877
00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:06.019
That was heartbreaking. And of course, some have said was
878
00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:10.000
Jim Morrison part of a, you know, intel of his father.
879
00:55:10.139 --> 00:55:12.960
I don't think so, but I think there's a good
880
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:15.719
argument that yes, there's always going to be those who
881
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:18.969
want to weaponize any art form. And it's up to
882
00:55:19.130 --> 00:55:21.150
us to be able to separate the wheat from the
883
00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:25.309
chaff and do our own research and realize, you know,
884
00:55:25.369 --> 00:55:29.130
and understand that any media is there to alter our,
885
00:55:30.619 --> 00:55:32.889
consciousness and our state of mind, it's up to us
886
00:55:32.949 --> 00:55:36.989
to be sober and cogent enough to separate and not
887
00:55:37.030 --> 00:55:39.309
let it control us either way. Yeah, 100%.
888
00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:44.190
Well, I'm very much looking forward to the David Bowie
889
00:55:44.309 --> 00:55:47.969
information that you'll be putting out. Before we close out today,
890
00:55:48.070 --> 00:55:50.429
is there anything else you're working on that you'd like
891
00:55:50.469 --> 00:55:52.820
to let us know about? And one more time, let
892
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:54.699
the audience know where they can find the book and
893
00:55:54.780 --> 00:55:55.760
all your other content.
894
00:55:57.619 --> 00:56:00.360
No, that's it. Just promoting the book, working on the
895
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:03.889
Bowie book, doing Aeon Byte. I started a new podcast
896
00:56:03.909 --> 00:56:07.250
that deals more with rock music called Gen X Wasteland.
897
00:56:08.269 --> 00:56:10.449
And also it's a good way to promote Elvis and
898
00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:13.909
Bowie and grunge and some of the other cool music
899
00:56:14.030 --> 00:56:18.380
out there in society. But yeah, if they go to MiguelConnor.com,
900
00:56:18.489 --> 00:56:21.679
all the links are there. I offer voiceover services, there's
901
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:24.840
social media. Sign up. You know, all the bells and
902
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.059
whistles for your audience to check in. Excellent.
903
00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:29.920
Miguel, thank you so much. Definitely love to do this
904
00:56:29.980 --> 00:56:33.219
again in the future. And until next time, have an
905
00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:35.420
excellent evening, everyone. We'll talk again tomorrow.
906
00:56:36.099 --> 00:56:37.719
See you then. Hello, friends.
907
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.420
Have you tried what may be the most powerful antioxidant
908
00:56:40.500 --> 00:56:44.239
known to man? C60 Purple Power. Today I want to
909
00:56:44.300 --> 00:56:48.079
welcome Richard Estep. He is author of 20 books, most
910
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:51.809
of them in the field of paranormal, nonfiction, He is
911
00:56:52.010 --> 00:56:56.360
a regular columnist for Haunted Magazine and has also written
912
00:56:56.440 --> 00:57:00.980
for the Journal of Emergency Medical Services. He appears regularly
913
00:57:01.219 --> 00:57:08.070
on TV shows like Haunted Case Files, Haunted Hospitals, Paranormal 911,
914
00:57:08.070 --> 00:57:12.389
and Paranormal Night Shift. Richard, welcome. How are you doing?
915
00:57:12.409 --> 00:57:15.590
I am doing well this morning. How are you?
916
00:57:15.610 --> 00:57:19.099
I am excellent. It is great to have you. Looking
917
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.579
forward to our discussion. We're going to be talking about
918
00:57:21.619 --> 00:57:27.340
your book, Dark Spirits, Monsters, Demons, and Devils. It explores
919
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:34.139
everything from hauntings and UFO objections to shapeshifters, curses, vampires,
920
00:57:34.219 --> 00:57:37.619
and so much more. All some of my favorite topics
921
00:57:37.659 --> 00:57:40.559
to discuss here. And there's a lot to cover in
922
00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:43.099
the time we have. But before we do this, your
923
00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.760
first time on, let the audience know a little bit
924
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:48.849
about yourself. and where they can find more about you.
925
00:57:50.610 --> 00:57:50.829
Sure.
926
00:57:50.869 --> 00:57:55.889
My name's Richard. I come from back east, about 4,500
927
00:57:55.889 --> 00:57:58.590
miles back east if you're in the US, small rainy
928
00:57:58.650 --> 00:58:02.840
island in the Atlantic called the British Isles. And I
929
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.099
make my living as a 911 paramedic and clinical educator.
930
00:58:08.139 --> 00:58:12.010
But in addition to that, I also am the author of,
931
00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:14.769
I think it's 44 books at present count, if you
932
00:58:15.130 --> 00:58:20.269
count the ones that I'm currently finishing up, primarily on ghosts,
933
00:58:20.309 --> 00:58:24.170
the paranormal, 14 kind of subjects like that, but also
934
00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:28.909
some history, current affairs, military history, ufology, things like that.
935
00:58:29.829 --> 00:58:30.139
Excellent.
936
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:33.159
You can find me online at richardestep.net. It's my home
937
00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:33.659
on the web.
938
00:58:34.219 --> 00:58:39.139
Perfect. So Richard, what brought you to write this particular book?
939
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:40.940
And give us a synopsis.
940
00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:47.260
I'm a big nostalgic person. And as a young man,
941
00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.880
as a boy, actually, I got books like those kind
942
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.400
of treasuries compendiums that you get that were aimed at
943
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:56.570
kind of younger readers, where they covered just a splash
944
00:58:56.590 --> 00:58:59.289
of everything, you know, whether it was monsters or ghosts
945
00:58:59.409 --> 00:59:02.530
or UFOs, all that kind of stuff. And I was
946
00:59:02.550 --> 00:59:04.809
given the opportunity by the good people at Visible Impress
947
00:59:04.849 --> 00:59:08.190
to write an adult version of that kind of book.
948
00:59:08.250 --> 00:59:09.969
So I wanted to cover a little bit of everything.
949
00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:14.119
on the darker side of the paranormal. As you said,
950
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:20.300
there are vampires, we cover werewolves, shapeshifters, ghosts, the Bermuda Triangle,
951
00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:24.639
some UFO cases, things of that nature. It's the kind
952
00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:28.789
of book I hope that people will dip into enjoy
953
00:59:28.829 --> 00:59:31.320
a section, and then maybe it will spark their curiosity,
954
00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:34.059
I hope, to go and learn more in depth about
955
00:59:34.139 --> 00:59:35.460
some of these fascinating subjects.
956
00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:39.679
What was it that really brought you to write about
957
00:59:39.739 --> 00:59:43.679
these topics in general? And did you have any personal,
958
00:59:44.260 --> 00:59:47.570
strange or unexplained paranormal experiences?
959
00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:51.590
Well, I spent 30 years as a paranormal investigator and
960
00:59:52.070 --> 00:59:54.750
written quite a few books on those experiences.
961
00:59:54.829 --> 00:59:56.000
So Yeah.
962
00:59:56.059 --> 00:59:58.039
I mean, essentially that's the kind of book I've, I've
963
00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:02.420
always written. So, um, it would be, uh, it was
964
01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:04.849
not a great leap for me to dip my toes
965
01:00:04.889 --> 01:00:06.449
in this kind of water of writing.
966
01:00:06.989 --> 01:00:07.170
Right.
967
01:00:07.250 --> 01:00:10.309
I meant, did you have any paranormal experiences growing up
968
01:00:10.469 --> 01:00:11.969
leading to that interest?
969
01:00:13.409 --> 01:00:15.190
Oh, I see. Um, no, not really.
970
01:00:15.469 --> 01:00:17.820
I grew up in a haunted house. My grandparents owned,
971
01:00:17.860 --> 01:00:19.679
and I'd heard ghost stories about the house, which was
972
01:00:19.739 --> 01:00:22.500
fascinated me. And I'm a child of the seventies. So
973
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:26.150
back then there was no paranormal TV. which means that
974
01:00:26.210 --> 01:00:27.769
you have to go to the library if you wanted
975
01:00:27.809 --> 01:00:29.710
to learn about this kind of stuff. You know, you
976
01:00:29.730 --> 01:00:35.000
could find information primarily in books. So it was a
977
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:37.980
very formative age when I discovered the works of writers
978
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:43.760
like Peter Underwood and Colin Wilson, you know, Guy Lyon Playfair, D.
979
01:00:43.780 --> 01:00:46.639
Scott Rogo, people like that. And I grew up wanting
980
01:00:46.699 --> 01:00:48.369
to read more of those kind of books, and I
981
01:00:48.429 --> 01:00:51.650
ended up writing them. But really, it all stems from
982
01:00:51.829 --> 01:00:53.429
my grandparents owning a haunted place.
983
01:00:54.489 --> 01:00:54.869
Excellent.
984
01:00:55.690 --> 01:01:01.170
Let's dive deep into the possibilities with much of this phenomenon.
985
01:01:01.210 --> 01:01:04.860
It seems that a lot of it can overlap and
986
01:01:04.909 --> 01:01:08.460
be connected in some ways. Starting with hauntings, do you
987
01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:12.019
think that this is actually a link to the other side,
988
01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:16.619
to the afterlife, that we are communicating with past loved ones,
989
01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:20.679
or could it be something else that mimics that?
990
01:01:22.179 --> 01:01:25.340
Sure. One of the things that's that struck me at
991
01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:27.420
one of the changes in the field to the paranormal,
992
01:01:27.460 --> 01:01:31.239
I think since I began researching in 1995 is that
993
01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:34.550
back then we were very siloed. You had what were
994
01:01:34.590 --> 01:01:38.949
called the UFO people. You had the Bigfoot or cryptid people,
995
01:01:38.969 --> 01:01:40.909
although cryptid wasn't a commonly used term back then. And
996
01:01:40.929 --> 01:01:42.650
then you had the ghost people. And I was of course,
997
01:01:43.050 --> 01:01:46.239
primarily the ghost people. And to me, it was kind
998
01:01:46.300 --> 01:01:49.079
of a Marvel versus DC Star Wars, Star Trek thing
999
01:01:49.099 --> 01:01:51.800
of why should I choose? You know, I'm really glad
1000
01:01:51.900 --> 01:01:54.079
that now we're all talking to each other and we
1001
01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:57.590
all crossover, because I think it's very likely we're looking
1002
01:01:57.690 --> 01:02:01.500
at one overarching umbrella phenomenon with a lot of different facets.
1003
01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:05.099
The more I think I talk to people that have
1004
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.079
different areas of expertise, the more I think there are
1005
01:02:08.179 --> 01:02:13.280
connections between what we've until fairly recently thought was separate,
1006
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:17.449
discrete phenomena. To answer your question specifically, I think in
1007
01:02:17.510 --> 01:02:21.210
some cases of hauntings, yeah, there is an element of
1008
01:02:21.780 --> 01:02:24.820
of dealing with the dead, the survival of some fragment
1009
01:02:24.889 --> 01:02:28.010
of the consciousness in various different forms. But I also
1010
01:02:28.030 --> 01:02:31.010
think it's very lazy of us if we just default
1011
01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:36.230
to ghosts equal dead people. You know, I'm a paramedic,
1012
01:02:36.269 --> 01:02:39.849
as I said, and when it's flu season, it would
1013
01:02:39.869 --> 01:02:42.949
be lazy of me to assume that every cough or
1014
01:02:42.989 --> 01:02:45.610
sneeze is the flu, right? It would deserve a little
1015
01:02:45.710 --> 01:02:48.489
further analysis. By the same token, you know, not all
1016
01:02:48.530 --> 01:02:51.739
hauntings are dead people. I think there is evidence out
1017
01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:56.989
there to suggest that some researchers have communicated maybe extra dimensionally,
1018
01:02:57.610 --> 01:03:00.050
that others may be communicating with people in different times
1019
01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:03.510
than our own, which I just think is wild. The
1020
01:03:03.550 --> 01:03:05.849
spirit box, the Franks box, I'm sure you're very familiar
1021
01:03:05.869 --> 01:03:09.860
with the Franks box device for communication. Frank Sumption never
1022
01:03:09.900 --> 01:03:13.420
intended that to be used as a quote unquote ghost box.
1023
01:03:13.820 --> 01:03:15.920
He actually thought he would be able to communicate with
1024
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:19.320
extraterrestrial intelligences with it. And I think there are cases
1025
01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:22.500
as well when we are communicating with either living minds
1026
01:03:22.579 --> 01:03:26.000
or sometimes maybe our own subconscious. So I think casting
1027
01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:29.260
a wider net is essential if you're going to investigate
1028
01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:30.119
these phenomena.
1029
01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:31.030
Right.
1030
01:03:31.449 --> 01:03:34.369
And the more I come to know and learn about
1031
01:03:35.110 --> 01:03:38.150
all of this, the more questions I have. It's like
1032
01:03:38.610 --> 01:03:42.449
peeling through layers of a never-ending onion. There's so much
1033
01:03:43.530 --> 01:03:47.280
more information to be gained once we reach a certain level,
1034
01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:50.329
it seems. But I want to go through some of
1035
01:03:50.380 --> 01:03:53.449
the information presented in the book and maybe dissect it
1036
01:03:53.489 --> 01:03:56.260
a little, see if we can connect some dots here.
1037
01:03:56.820 --> 01:04:00.139
Starting with some of the cursed places you talk about,
1038
01:04:00.179 --> 01:04:04.239
this sort of correlates with hauntings, but it could correlate
1039
01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:06.780
with many things like we were just saying. You talk
1040
01:04:06.820 --> 01:04:13.409
about the Bermuda Triangle, London's haunted underground, Los Angeles... notorious
1041
01:04:13.489 --> 01:04:17.429
Hotel Cecil. Talk a little bit about some of these locations,
1042
01:04:17.510 --> 01:04:22.329
maybe some of the most interesting aspects you write about
1043
01:04:22.369 --> 01:04:22.670
in there.
1044
01:04:24.389 --> 01:04:27.449
I mean, the Bermuda Triangle, I really hate the way
1045
01:04:27.489 --> 01:04:30.030
that chapter turned out, which is, I know, probably not
1046
01:04:30.050 --> 01:04:31.750
what my publisher wants to hear. But what I mean
1047
01:04:31.849 --> 01:04:33.889
is that, again, as a child of the 70s, I
1048
01:04:33.929 --> 01:04:37.519
grew up reading Charles Berlitz, I think who gave us
1049
01:04:37.579 --> 01:04:40.900
the term Bermuda Triangle, watching TV shows, classic shows like
1050
01:04:40.980 --> 01:04:44.750
In Search Of, It seemed like the Bermuda Triangle was everywhere,
1051
01:04:44.789 --> 01:04:47.329
you know, and then you don't hear from it so
1052
01:04:47.389 --> 01:04:50.630
much anymore. So I did some delving into that. And
1053
01:04:50.650 --> 01:04:54.550
I kind of have slaughtered this sacred cow, unfortunately, not
1054
01:04:54.590 --> 01:04:56.769
that I'm the first to do so remotely. But the
1055
01:04:56.849 --> 01:05:00.489
evidence is pretty clear. When you look at the rates
1056
01:05:01.010 --> 01:05:04.889
of vessels, aircraft being lost in what's called the Bermuda Triangle,
1057
01:05:05.570 --> 01:05:08.880
it's statistically no more hazardous to travel through than any
1058
01:05:08.949 --> 01:05:11.880
other waterway in the world. In fact, less so than some.
1059
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.449
So I just, you know, a little part of childhood
1060
01:05:15.510 --> 01:05:17.659
me died when I did that research.
1061
01:05:17.739 --> 01:05:19.869
But it's still.
1062
01:05:19.670 --> 01:05:21.590
A thing that, you know, I'd wanted to write about.
1063
01:05:21.610 --> 01:05:24.530
And I was really passionate about delving into it. So
1064
01:05:24.929 --> 01:05:28.150
you hear these great stories or hypotheses about, you know,
1065
01:05:28.590 --> 01:05:31.809
water spouts, sucking down ships and things of that nature.
1066
01:05:32.590 --> 01:05:35.650
The classic case of the Navy flight, the aircraft that
1067
01:05:35.670 --> 01:05:39.550
were lost, you know, and the final radio transmissions were
1068
01:05:39.570 --> 01:05:42.900
things like the sea doesn't look right. You know, how
1069
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:45.949
do all these pilots get, you know, skilled pilots get lost?
1070
01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:52.150
And unfortunately, statistically, the Bermuda Triangle isn't a compelling thing.
1071
01:05:53.329 --> 01:05:56.010
But nonetheless, you know, it makes for a fascinating story.
1072
01:05:56.570 --> 01:05:59.489
The London Underground, I'd written about, I don't think the
1073
01:05:59.550 --> 01:06:02.909
London Underground is a cursed place at all. I just
1074
01:06:02.949 --> 01:06:05.730
think that when you move that many people that often
1075
01:06:05.750 --> 01:06:08.469
a day, you know, you have so many commuters moving
1076
01:06:08.489 --> 01:06:11.730
through the underground. It's a very busy place. And it's
1077
01:06:11.750 --> 01:06:14.769
seen more than its fair share of tragedy. So the,
1078
01:06:15.699 --> 01:06:17.679
the individuals that work on the underground at some of
1079
01:06:17.699 --> 01:06:20.940
the stations and in some of the tunnels, many of
1080
01:06:20.980 --> 01:06:24.480
them have ghost stories. And it's a sad thing that
1081
01:06:24.539 --> 01:06:27.400
some of them are rooted in tragedy. For example, the
1082
01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:31.800
underground stations were used as shelters from bombing by the
1083
01:06:31.820 --> 01:06:35.239
Luftwaffe in World War II. So, you know, at night
1084
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.880
when there was an air raid coming, the Londoners would
1085
01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:40.480
go down into the underground and sleep in the stations.
1086
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:43.119
And there was at least one case in which, you know,
1087
01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:47.420
there was a mass tragedy relating to one of those
1088
01:06:47.460 --> 01:06:50.760
bombing incidents. So a lot of ghost stories on the underground.
1089
01:06:50.860 --> 01:06:55.329
And I think it's because it's such an enclosed subterranean place.
1090
01:06:55.409 --> 01:06:57.630
You know, if you've ever been on it during the day,
1091
01:06:57.690 --> 01:06:59.570
it's hustle and bustle. But if you ever get to
1092
01:06:59.630 --> 01:07:02.789
see the underground at night, which I did get to do,
1093
01:07:03.630 --> 01:07:09.039
it is definitely an eerie place. The closest I've seen
1094
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.570
it portrayed, believe it or not, is in the movie
1095
01:07:11.769 --> 01:07:15.570
American Wealth in London. You kind of get that great
1096
01:07:15.610 --> 01:07:18.699
sensation in that movie where, you know, there is the
1097
01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:22.239
lone commuter getting off the train at night. Subways are
1098
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:24.940
sinister places when you're all alone in them after dark.
1099
01:07:24.980 --> 01:07:29.460
So no surprise there that there are ghost stories. And
1100
01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:34.719
long may they continue. The Hotel Cecil was initially one
1101
01:07:34.739 --> 01:07:37.650
of Los Angeles, you know, top draw kind of hotels.
1102
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:43.730
until the economic depression sent it and many other hotels
1103
01:07:43.789 --> 01:07:47.429
like it into a tailspin. And so it ended up in,
1104
01:07:47.710 --> 01:07:50.210
we all know the term, Skid Row. The Hotel Cecil
1105
01:07:50.250 --> 01:07:52.469
is now located in Skid Row. So it saw a
1106
01:07:52.510 --> 01:07:56.809
significant decline in its fortunes over the years, eventually becoming
1107
01:07:56.849 --> 01:07:58.780
the kind of place to avoid, you know, the sort
1108
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:00.139
of place that would rent you a room.
1109
01:08:00.010 --> 01:08:00.980
For like an hour.
1110
01:08:02.860 --> 01:08:06.150
And all hotels have their deaths. You know, people die
1111
01:08:06.190 --> 01:08:08.389
in hotels all the time. It just happens.
1112
01:08:08.429 --> 01:08:09.949
Statistically, it's normal.
1113
01:08:10.449 --> 01:08:13.530
But the Cecil's deaths have been quite numerous, a lot
1114
01:08:13.570 --> 01:08:18.449
of suicides, and some of them extremely disturbing. There was
1115
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:21.760
the soldier, for example, that cut his own throat in
1116
01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:27.039
one of the rooms. There was the lady that deeply,
1117
01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:29.680
deeply tragic case in which she gave birth in one
1118
01:08:29.699 --> 01:08:32.850
of the upstairs restrooms and threw a newborn baby out
1119
01:08:32.890 --> 01:08:36.600
of the window. Some have said that the Cecil is cursed.
1120
01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:40.789
I don't know that it is, but certainly it has
1121
01:08:40.829 --> 01:08:45.609
a very dark history. And to this day, there are
1122
01:08:45.649 --> 01:08:49.250
people that say that the Cecil is infested with some
1123
01:08:49.289 --> 01:08:51.810
kind of malign energy, whatever you want to call that,
1124
01:08:51.850 --> 01:08:54.750
whatever you think it looks like, that it's the kind
1125
01:08:54.789 --> 01:08:55.989
of place that's best avoided.
1126
01:08:57.529 --> 01:09:00.939
Let's explore some of the possibilities you just discussed. You
1127
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:05.960
said that places like the London Underground have a different
1128
01:09:06.060 --> 01:09:08.220
feel at night, and this seems to be the case
1129
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:13.609
for many purported haunted locations, that things seem to come
1130
01:09:13.670 --> 01:09:17.130
to life at night and that there's more activity during
1131
01:09:17.229 --> 01:09:20.529
the nighttime hours. Would you say that this is true
1132
01:09:20.590 --> 01:09:24.970
across the board when it comes to these energetically charged places?
1133
01:09:26.569 --> 01:09:30.810
I think it's a misconception that hauntings are more active
1134
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:34.859
after dark. I don't think it's true. Having spent many years,
1135
01:09:34.859 --> 01:09:39.079
30 years, I think, investigating them, the main reason I
1136
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:40.939
think we think it is because it's dark and we've
1137
01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:44.079
seen it on how many scary movies and shows, you know?
1138
01:09:44.829 --> 01:09:48.430
There aren't too many ghost movies where the action happens
1139
01:09:48.449 --> 01:09:52.449
at noon, brightly lit, you know. You do see that
1140
01:09:52.489 --> 01:09:55.380
in some of them. Insidious did that really well, by
1141
01:09:55.420 --> 01:09:56.880
the way. I think there are some great scenes in
1142
01:09:56.920 --> 01:09:58.800
that movie which take place in daylight, but that's kind
1143
01:09:58.819 --> 01:10:03.060
of subverting your expectations. But I also have noticed that
1144
01:10:03.100 --> 01:10:05.560
with certain places, they're in fact more active during the day.
1145
01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:08.890
So a case in point will be Ashmore Estates in Illinois,
1146
01:10:09.289 --> 01:10:12.010
an old poor farm. the kind of place where people
1147
01:10:12.069 --> 01:10:15.329
lived and worked the farm to sustain themselves, kind of
1148
01:10:15.390 --> 01:10:20.189
like a homeless shelter. But it became a family. And
1149
01:10:20.810 --> 01:10:23.750
when I investigated there, the place actually got quieter the
1150
01:10:23.789 --> 01:10:26.770
later it got. And it was pointed out to me that,
1151
01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:31.420
you know, when this place was actually functional, because it's
1152
01:10:31.479 --> 01:10:36.100
now abandoned, when this place was functional, they kept farmers hours,
1153
01:10:36.159 --> 01:10:39.079
which means they were in bed not long after sunset
1154
01:10:39.119 --> 01:10:42.239
because they were up. prior to sunrise. So it would
1155
01:10:42.279 --> 01:10:45.000
have been strange if we had gotten activity at 9, 10,
1156
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.579
11 o'clock at night, you know, or the so-called witching hour.
1157
01:10:48.100 --> 01:10:50.439
Most of the activity in that place happens in the afternoon.
1158
01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:53.770
So it depends on the nature of the location, I think.
1159
01:10:54.689 --> 01:10:59.689
Let's talk about the possible nature of the phenomena that
1160
01:10:59.729 --> 01:11:03.329
could be occurring. You said that in the places you
1161
01:11:03.369 --> 01:11:05.649
were just discussing that there's been a lot of death,
1162
01:11:05.689 --> 01:11:12.380
a lot of tragedy. Does that equate... that it leaves
1163
01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:16.760
a residual type of energy, that it may bring some
1164
01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:21.970
sort of nefarious intelligence, like maybe what you'd consider demons
1165
01:11:22.050 --> 01:11:26.289
into the picture. There's many other possibilities that I've heard
1166
01:11:26.630 --> 01:11:30.289
in recent years from different guests and researchers that I have.
1167
01:11:30.409 --> 01:11:35.930
Some that it could be the exertion of some sort
1168
01:11:36.029 --> 01:11:41.140
of psychic energy that is suppressed in a person's consciousness,
1169
01:11:41.560 --> 01:11:45.920
mainly for people who have haunted houses that have poltergeist
1170
01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:50.170
activity that may be the case, residual type of energy.
1171
01:11:50.189 --> 01:11:54.590
Do you think that it's more common to have that than, say,
1172
01:11:54.949 --> 01:11:57.810
what people would consider evil spirits or demons?
1173
01:12:00.149 --> 01:12:03.010
I think that psychology plays a huge role, and so
1174
01:12:03.029 --> 01:12:06.000
much of it depends on the worldview of the individuals
1175
01:12:06.039 --> 01:12:09.520
who are experiencing these phenomena, you know. But I think
1176
01:12:09.539 --> 01:12:11.699
that there is, in many cases, a form of energy
1177
01:12:11.739 --> 01:12:14.680
we don't understand. I've always said when it comes to hauntings,
1178
01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:16.779
you know, you require energy in order for there to
1179
01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:19.819
be one. And where you find that energy, you generally
1180
01:12:19.899 --> 01:12:23.470
tend to find ghosts. But we often forget, and this
1181
01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:26.189
is literally the last book you should read for this
1182
01:12:26.270 --> 01:12:30.149
aspect of things, that you can have nice hauntings. When
1183
01:12:30.170 --> 01:12:34.310
I first began investigating hauntings in the mid-90s, A lot
1184
01:12:34.329 --> 01:12:37.750
of the cases, the residential cases, were very warm and friendly.
1185
01:12:38.170 --> 01:12:41.720
It would be somebody that experienced paranormal phenomena in their home.
1186
01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:44.560
And we would look back and find that the former
1187
01:12:44.600 --> 01:12:47.899
tenants were perhaps a couple who had lived there from
1188
01:12:47.939 --> 01:12:51.079
their 20s until their 60s or 70s. They'd loved the house.
1189
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:54.149
They'd raised kids. They became grandparents. They passed away ultimately
1190
01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:56.930
in the house. And some just kind of remnant or
1191
01:12:57.010 --> 01:13:00.670
residue of their life remained. Perhaps it was a smell
1192
01:13:00.689 --> 01:13:05.250
of cigar smoke. or perfume or something like that, footsteps,
1193
01:13:05.310 --> 01:13:08.609
you know, going along a well-worn kind of pathway or passageway,
1194
01:13:09.489 --> 01:13:12.609
the sound of an armchair creaking, things of that nature. Again,
1195
01:13:12.649 --> 01:13:15.829
you know, that's very positive energy. When people love a place,
1196
01:13:15.869 --> 01:13:19.029
when people imbue positive energy into a place, you can
1197
01:13:19.050 --> 01:13:21.670
see hauntings too. On the darker side of things, which
1198
01:13:21.989 --> 01:13:24.130
is what I was writing about in this book, then,
1199
01:13:24.170 --> 01:13:26.850
of course, we're talking about trauma and tragedy and things
1200
01:13:26.890 --> 01:13:29.949
like that. which is why we see so many battlefield ghosts,
1201
01:13:30.109 --> 01:13:34.069
why we see so many hospital ghosts, asylums, jails, the
1202
01:13:34.109 --> 01:13:38.409
kind of places where you did see this high-intensity negative
1203
01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:42.220
traumatic energy. So I think although we don't know what
1204
01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:46.260
to call it, although conventional science dismisses it as something
1205
01:13:46.300 --> 01:13:49.899
that doesn't exist, there is just so much, at least
1206
01:13:49.939 --> 01:13:53.449
anecdotal evidence, that there is some kind of impact. Whether
1207
01:13:53.470 --> 01:13:56.010
you want to call it a psychic scarring, whatever you
1208
01:13:56.050 --> 01:13:59.590
want to term it, something remains in those cases.
1209
01:14:00.890 --> 01:14:06.750
That would seem like the most obvious explanation. Some would
1210
01:14:06.789 --> 01:14:10.930
go as far as to say that there are trapped spirits,
1211
01:14:11.010 --> 01:14:15.149
that it is the full consciousness of the deceased person
1212
01:14:15.270 --> 01:14:18.930
that has failed to cross over to the other side,
1213
01:14:19.010 --> 01:14:21.229
if you will. Do you think that is even a
1214
01:14:21.310 --> 01:14:25.130
thing where a person can be, their soul or spirit
1215
01:14:25.189 --> 01:14:28.369
or essence can be trapped? between realms?
1216
01:14:30.010 --> 01:14:31.960
I do wonder if trapped is the right word because
1217
01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:34.800
it's kind of dramatic. I do wonder if one can
1218
01:14:34.819 --> 01:14:38.359
perhaps become lost or if they can perhaps, they perhaps
1219
01:14:38.439 --> 01:14:41.380
remain for a period before passing on for whatever reason
1220
01:14:41.420 --> 01:14:44.970
before moving on. I just think that trapped is a
1221
01:14:45.010 --> 01:14:47.270
very loaded term. And, you know, one thing that I'm
1222
01:14:47.310 --> 01:14:52.149
very skeptical of in paranormal research is when individuals, if
1223
01:14:52.170 --> 01:14:53.930
you'll forgive me for stepping onto the sub box for
1224
01:14:53.949 --> 01:14:56.899
a minute, is when individuals have a vested interest in
1225
01:14:56.960 --> 01:15:00.600
making themselves seem good or special. So those that claim
1226
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:04.779
they have the ability to cross people over, cross spirits over,
1227
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:08.600
I've never seen compelling evidence that this can be done
1228
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:12.649
or that it needs to be done. Having worked with
1229
01:15:12.699 --> 01:15:15.390
a number of mediums over the years, many of them
1230
01:15:15.409 --> 01:15:17.770
have told me the same thing. They've said that when
1231
01:15:17.850 --> 01:15:21.859
a spirit wants to move on, help is available. but
1232
01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:25.880
there are sometimes circumstances in which that may not happen immediately.
1233
01:15:26.699 --> 01:15:30.279
So I'm skeptical whenever somebody is involved that talks about
1234
01:15:30.590 --> 01:15:34.529
coming in to cross the spirit's arm. That being said,
1235
01:15:34.550 --> 01:15:38.430
I have seen a number of cases in which a
1236
01:15:38.489 --> 01:15:40.270
spirit or whatever we want to call it seemed to
1237
01:15:40.310 --> 01:15:44.119
be confused as to why they were where they were,
1238
01:15:44.420 --> 01:15:49.180
that they weren't able to articulate that. Where they were
1239
01:15:49.199 --> 01:15:51.220
or why they were there some that didn't seem to
1240
01:15:51.279 --> 01:15:56.060
acknowledge that they were dead at all so confusion exists
1241
01:15:56.119 --> 01:15:59.039
of course in the material realm it would seem strange
1242
01:15:59.100 --> 01:16:03.140
to me that confusion wouldn't exist if Consciousness survives death.
1243
01:16:03.979 --> 01:16:09.899
Let's move on to deadly demons and devils you cover
1244
01:16:10.100 --> 01:16:15.699
a couple of stories like possessed exorcist boy the almonds
1245
01:16:15.739 --> 01:16:18.760
demon house and Tell us a little bit about what
1246
01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:19.960
you cover in this section.
1247
01:16:19.979 --> 01:16:24.489
I mean, half the world believes in demons. Um, and
1248
01:16:24.550 --> 01:16:28.229
so I've written entire books on the subject. Um, one
1249
01:16:28.270 --> 01:16:30.609
of them was called in search of demons where I
1250
01:16:30.649 --> 01:16:34.890
spent 86,000 words, uh, going across the U S um,
1251
01:16:35.109 --> 01:16:37.689
covering that subject. So what you get in this book is,
1252
01:16:37.789 --> 01:16:41.840
is kind of an overview, but, um, I'm fascinated by
1253
01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:45.060
this idea we've had for pretty much as long as
1254
01:16:45.100 --> 01:16:47.600
there have been humans. that there are these entities out
1255
01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:50.199
there that are dark in nature that can not only
1256
01:16:50.260 --> 01:16:54.539
attach themselves onto us but possess us, sometimes unwillingly and
1257
01:16:54.619 --> 01:16:58.090
sometimes willingly too. You know, there are religions, faiths in
1258
01:16:58.130 --> 01:17:03.930
the world which openly accept possession. So I wanted to
1259
01:17:03.970 --> 01:17:05.989
kind of look into that in a little bit more detail.
1260
01:17:07.149 --> 01:17:11.460
The case of the exorcist boy is fascinating. Obviously, you
1261
01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:13.060
would have to look pretty hard to find someone that
1262
01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:15.399
hadn't seen or wasn't aware of at least the movie
1263
01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:18.710
The Exorcist. Not everybody knows that that was based on
1264
01:17:18.729 --> 01:17:22.229
a real case, but the girl in the movie was
1265
01:17:22.270 --> 01:17:24.449
a boy in real life, a boy called Ronnie Hunkler,
1266
01:17:25.430 --> 01:17:28.890
that underwent an exorcism over the space of several weeks
1267
01:17:29.689 --> 01:17:33.750
during the late 1940s, 1949, in St.
1268
01:17:33.789 --> 01:17:34.109
Louis.
1269
01:17:35.170 --> 01:17:38.850
And what fascinated me most about that is that to
1270
01:17:38.909 --> 01:17:42.590
this day, we do not know for sure whether this
1271
01:17:42.649 --> 01:17:45.630
was a quote-unquote genuine case of demonic possession or not.
1272
01:17:46.550 --> 01:17:51.609
There was a slew of witnesses that staked their reputations
1273
01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:55.500
on this being a real demonic possession. But what fascinated
1274
01:17:55.539 --> 01:17:59.279
me was pretty much all of them were Catholics. Demons
1275
01:17:59.319 --> 01:18:02.600
were part of their worldview. They accepted without question that
1276
01:18:02.619 --> 01:18:07.640
this was a thing. There was not a skeptical secular
1277
01:18:07.680 --> 01:18:10.420
investigator in there that was able to observe the phenomena
1278
01:18:10.840 --> 01:18:14.319
and document from a non-faith-based point of view. And I
1279
01:18:14.359 --> 01:18:17.260
think that's important. When you look at the life of
1280
01:18:17.319 --> 01:18:21.439
Ronnie Honkala, once the exorcism was over, it clearly worked.
1281
01:18:22.079 --> 01:18:25.960
There was no resurgence of the behavior, which was termed
1282
01:18:26.119 --> 01:18:28.840
demonic possession. And he went on to lead a very
1283
01:18:28.979 --> 01:18:31.670
quiet life. In fact, one of the things I found
1284
01:18:31.729 --> 01:18:35.130
credible about this case was that if it happened today,
1285
01:18:35.289 --> 01:18:39.329
I think the so-called exorcist boy could make a fortune
1286
01:18:39.409 --> 01:18:42.430
selling that story on television and getting book deals and
1287
01:18:42.470 --> 01:18:46.090
things like that. He wanted the exact opposite. In fact,
1288
01:18:46.130 --> 01:18:49.789
he worked very hard indeed with the church supporting him
1289
01:18:49.960 --> 01:18:54.000
to keep his identity a secret. He did not want
1290
01:18:54.060 --> 01:18:57.300
his colleagues to know that he was that boy. And
1291
01:18:57.340 --> 01:19:00.310
he went on to become literally a rocket scientist. He
1292
01:19:00.350 --> 01:19:02.890
worked at NASA. He was part of the team that
1293
01:19:03.770 --> 01:19:08.550
designed the tiles which allow the space shuttle to return
1294
01:19:08.590 --> 01:19:12.909
to Earth without burning up. And he lived in fear,
1295
01:19:13.170 --> 01:19:16.560
not of demonic possession, but that people would find out
1296
01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:20.279
that he was the exorcist boy. Till his dying day,
1297
01:19:20.420 --> 01:19:22.840
he worked to keep that a secret. And that, to me,
1298
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:24.920
is not the behavior of someone who was faking it.
1299
01:19:26.539 --> 01:19:28.659
So I did find that very compelling indeed.
1300
01:19:30.510 --> 01:19:35.670
Tell us a little bit about the Dosmeri's pool deal
1301
01:19:35.729 --> 01:19:36.270
with the devil.
1302
01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:41.439
So if you go across the Atlantic to England, to
1303
01:19:41.500 --> 01:19:45.279
Southwest England, Cornwall, the most magical, I think, county that
1304
01:19:45.310 --> 01:19:48.649
the British Isles have, there is some very rich folklore
1305
01:19:48.689 --> 01:19:56.369
there and Arthurian folklore, especially. So Dozmery Pool is in
1306
01:19:56.430 --> 01:19:58.449
the middle of nowhere. You would have to go out
1307
01:19:58.470 --> 01:19:59.289
of your way to get there.
1308
01:19:59.350 --> 01:19:59.729
And I did.
1309
01:20:00.569 --> 01:20:03.670
But it is said to be the place where the
1310
01:20:03.729 --> 01:20:07.289
Lady of the Lake raised Excalibur out of the water
1311
01:20:07.329 --> 01:20:09.470
and presented it to King Arthur so how cool is
1312
01:20:09.510 --> 01:20:12.689
that just for a reason to visit alone but one
1313
01:20:12.710 --> 01:20:16.939
of the darker sides of the pool's folklore is that
1314
01:20:16.989 --> 01:20:22.840
there was a Cornishman called Jan Tregeagle not a nice
1315
01:20:22.899 --> 01:20:28.220
chap by all accounts he was quite the scoundrel and
1316
01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:30.619
he made a deal with the devil in order for
1317
01:20:30.659 --> 01:20:35.039
you know the usual reasons fame success women at the
1318
01:20:35.890 --> 01:20:38.270
in exchange for his soul. But he did not want
1319
01:20:38.289 --> 01:20:40.069
to pay up when it was his time to go.
1320
01:20:40.149 --> 01:20:43.789
So he sought help from the church. And a rather
1321
01:20:43.850 --> 01:20:49.170
clever churchman said, I will set the spirit of Jan
1322
01:20:49.210 --> 01:20:54.140
Tredegel an impossible series of tasks. And as long as
1323
01:20:54.180 --> 01:20:58.060
he's kept occupied doing those tasks, the devil cannot claim him.
1324
01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:01.439
And so one of them was to empty the pool
1325
01:21:01.760 --> 01:21:05.859
with a seashell. a tiny seashell, basically a thimble full
1326
01:21:05.899 --> 01:21:08.319
at a time. And he was to keep going and
1327
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.279
going and going. And when he finally stops, when the
1328
01:21:11.340 --> 01:21:14.199
pool is finally empty, then it's said that the devil
1329
01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:17.060
will have his due. And I just love the fact
1330
01:21:17.119 --> 01:21:19.560
that the pool is up on the, you know, a
1331
01:21:19.600 --> 01:21:24.010
lonely stretch of the moors. And it's said and has
1332
01:21:24.050 --> 01:21:28.029
been said for generations that if you listen carefully on
1333
01:21:28.090 --> 01:21:31.390
nights when the wind howls, you can still hear the
1334
01:21:31.449 --> 01:21:36.310
wails of Jantrig Eagle. as he despairingly goes about his
1335
01:21:36.369 --> 01:21:39.510
impossible task. I love those kind of stories. They add
1336
01:21:39.550 --> 01:21:42.149
such richness and context and color to our world.
1337
01:21:42.789 --> 01:21:49.510
Definitely. Now, going back to the exorcism and possession, you
1338
01:21:49.550 --> 01:21:54.770
were saying that most of the cases where it was
1339
01:21:54.810 --> 01:21:58.649
said to be traditional demonic possession, that the person was Catholic.
1340
01:21:58.710 --> 01:21:59.229
Is that right?
1341
01:22:01.170 --> 01:22:04.670
I said that, um, in the case of the exorcist boy,
1342
01:22:04.710 --> 01:22:06.970
Ronnie Hunkala, most of the witnesses were Catholic.
1343
01:22:07.029 --> 01:22:08.189
Oh, most of the witnesses.
1344
01:22:08.310 --> 01:22:09.369
Okay. Yes.
1345
01:22:09.470 --> 01:22:12.350
Most of those that witnessed the phenomena and believed he
1346
01:22:12.369 --> 01:22:16.590
was possessed and signed, um, documents to that effect, statements,
1347
01:22:17.130 --> 01:22:20.550
declarations were Catholic. However, you do raise a good point. Uh,
1348
01:22:20.609 --> 01:22:22.689
and this is something I talk about a little bit
1349
01:22:22.829 --> 01:22:25.899
in my other book, In Search of Demons. Um, it's
1350
01:22:26.020 --> 01:22:31.399
very rare, not quite unheard of, but extremely rare. for atheists,
1351
01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:37.810
agnostics to become possessed. There's a degree of you have
1352
01:22:37.850 --> 01:22:39.869
to believe in it for it to happen to you,
1353
01:22:39.989 --> 01:22:42.909
to be a threat to you with possession, which I've
1354
01:22:42.949 --> 01:22:46.789
always found intriguing indeed. However, that being said, we do
1355
01:22:46.890 --> 01:22:51.319
see people that exhibit similar symptoms. And if they don't
1356
01:22:51.359 --> 01:22:53.699
go to the church, if that's not part of their worldview,
1357
01:22:54.380 --> 01:22:58.100
often it is labeled mental illness and is treated accordingly.
1358
01:22:58.119 --> 01:23:05.470
Mm-hmm. This is so interesting that based on people's experiences
1359
01:23:05.550 --> 01:23:10.829
and worldview, that they could be having these very similar
1360
01:23:10.949 --> 01:23:16.229
symptoms to someone that would be considered demonically possessed. But
1361
01:23:16.350 --> 01:23:20.390
because they don't believe in that, they have a different diagnosis.
1362
01:23:21.210 --> 01:23:26.819
And along the same token, people who become possessed and
1363
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:32.010
go under an exorcism ceremony, they would essentially have to
1364
01:23:32.069 --> 01:23:35.390
believe in that for that ceremony to work properly. Is
1365
01:23:35.409 --> 01:23:35.810
that right?
1366
01:23:37.229 --> 01:23:39.869
Pretty much seems to be the case. And it dovetails
1367
01:23:39.890 --> 01:23:41.449
with something else I wrote about in the book, and
1368
01:23:41.489 --> 01:23:45.020
that was the subject of curses. The idea, what fascinated
1369
01:23:45.039 --> 01:23:47.659
me about curses, I mean, number one, are they a thing?
1370
01:23:48.100 --> 01:23:51.100
But number two, do you have to believe in them
1371
01:23:51.260 --> 01:23:54.729
for them to work? Because we've all experienced that thing
1372
01:23:54.810 --> 01:23:57.529
where if somebody says to you, hey, are you okay, man?
1373
01:23:57.569 --> 01:24:00.319
You don't look so good today. Oh yeah, I feel fine.
1374
01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:04.199
Second person says it to you. You're like, do I
1375
01:24:04.220 --> 01:24:08.020
feel fine? Do I look? Third person, now you're buying in, right?
1376
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.850
Three people tell you you look like crap today. Maybe
1377
01:24:11.979 --> 01:24:14.109
I didn't sleep well. Am I a little tired? I
1378
01:24:14.149 --> 01:24:15.829
don't feel, maybe I'm coming down with something.
1379
01:24:16.130 --> 01:24:17.750
And we can see belief at work.
1380
01:24:18.050 --> 01:24:20.750
So belief is an immensely powerful thing. And a lot
1381
01:24:20.789 --> 01:24:25.069
of so-called curses, I think, require the cursed individual to
1382
01:24:25.149 --> 01:24:28.300
know that they've been cursed. And some of them, I think,
1383
01:24:28.779 --> 01:24:30.899
Just don't hold up to scrutiny. When you look at
1384
01:24:30.979 --> 01:24:34.359
broader curses, not on individuals, but on a group. So
1385
01:24:34.420 --> 01:24:37.920
for example, the curse of Superman. I don't know if
1386
01:24:37.939 --> 01:24:42.350
you're familiar with this. The idea that, yeah, actors that
1387
01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:46.329
have played Superman over the years, the role is cursed
1388
01:24:46.369 --> 01:24:48.789
and bad things will happen to you. You know, people
1389
01:24:48.829 --> 01:24:51.409
that believe in this point out George Reeves, one of
1390
01:24:51.470 --> 01:24:56.010
the first incarnations of Superman, died and was self-inflicted or
1391
01:24:56.050 --> 01:25:02.510
apparently self-inflicted. Gunshot wound. You have other Superman that did
1392
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:06.930
the role, got kind of typecast and their careers suffered.
1393
01:25:07.270 --> 01:25:09.270
You had, of course, Christopher Reeve, you know, who had
1394
01:25:09.289 --> 01:25:13.449
that terrible riding accident, was paralysed. So there is a
1395
01:25:13.510 --> 01:25:16.119
thing out there people believe in the curse of Superman.
1396
01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:18.699
But then you don't have to go too far to
1397
01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:22.619
look at people like Henry Cavill, you know, the last
1398
01:25:22.699 --> 01:25:25.659
Superman that we had prior to the new one, David Currensweat.
1399
01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:29.239
Henry Cavill is like a multi-multi-millionaire in line to be
1400
01:25:29.260 --> 01:25:31.479
the next James Bond. You know, he's doing great. Right.
1401
01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:35.159
So where does that kind of lead you? If he
1402
01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:37.140
believed in this curse, I wonder if it would have
1403
01:25:37.159 --> 01:25:40.039
affected him at all. The Curse of Poltergeist, the movie,
1404
01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:43.640
the same deal, you know. Movie curses. I mean, there
1405
01:25:43.680 --> 01:25:46.500
is a great documentary series out there called Cursed Films,
1406
01:25:46.539 --> 01:25:50.079
which looks at some of these stories. But I think
1407
01:25:50.140 --> 01:25:52.020
the problem is when you look at a movie like
1408
01:25:52.050 --> 01:25:56.119
The Exorcist where you have you know, an unusual number of,
1409
01:25:56.329 --> 01:25:59.630
or they claim an unusual number of deaths and misfortune
1410
01:25:59.689 --> 01:26:01.850
and things like that. Or you look at a movie
1411
01:26:01.890 --> 01:26:06.090
like Poltergeist, you know, where tragically Heather O'Rourke, who played
1412
01:26:06.130 --> 01:26:10.430
Carol Ann, died at a very young age. You have
1413
01:26:10.449 --> 01:26:13.949
a Hollywood production that's that big. It's not unusual if
1414
01:26:13.989 --> 01:26:16.949
somebody dies. It's not unusual if a couple of people die.
1415
01:26:17.350 --> 01:26:20.029
Somebody's going to have bad luck. Yeah, your set might
1416
01:26:20.069 --> 01:26:24.109
catch fire, you know. Um, your house, my, whatever happened,
1417
01:26:24.130 --> 01:26:26.300
you're going to see a degree of misfortune whenever you
1418
01:26:26.340 --> 01:26:29.020
have that many people involved over the space of a
1419
01:26:29.060 --> 01:26:33.659
year or 18 months on a project. But first movies
1420
01:26:33.720 --> 01:26:38.239
and movie sets are gold for movie studio publicity departments.
1421
01:26:39.460 --> 01:26:40.760
And so they're often played up.
1422
01:26:41.260 --> 01:26:41.619
Yeah.
1423
01:26:41.720 --> 01:26:45.159
The last ghostbusters movie, um, frozen empire, they shot that
1424
01:26:45.199 --> 01:26:49.520
in the UK and it was a new story that, uh,
1425
01:26:49.579 --> 01:26:52.960
there were concerns. from members of the cast, you know,
1426
01:26:53.000 --> 01:26:55.359
that the set might be haunted. So they actually brought
1427
01:26:55.439 --> 01:26:57.970
in like investigators and people to bless the set and
1428
01:26:57.989 --> 01:27:01.789
stuff like that. It it's PR a lot of the time,
1429
01:27:01.829 --> 01:27:04.069
you know, I mean, firstly, you've got Dan Aykroyd in
1430
01:27:04.090 --> 01:27:06.750
that cast. Who do you get that's more qualified than
1431
01:27:06.770 --> 01:27:09.100
Dan Aykroyd? If you've got a haunted set, there's your man.
1432
01:27:09.399 --> 01:27:10.520
Yeah.
1433
01:27:11.180 --> 01:27:13.720
So I was going to say, going back to the
1434
01:27:13.800 --> 01:27:19.260
Superman curse, is there any origin of that, that we
1435
01:27:19.300 --> 01:27:24.729
can find in the, historical documents or anything that indicates
1436
01:27:24.899 --> 01:27:28.560
where that curse originated from or where it was said
1437
01:27:28.619 --> 01:27:29.699
to be originated from?
1438
01:27:29.720 --> 01:27:33.340
It's a great question. It's not like somebody was cursed.
1439
01:27:33.380 --> 01:27:36.000
It's not like a ceremony or a ritual was performed.
1440
01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:40.319
I think somebody at some point strung together some disparate
1441
01:27:40.470 --> 01:27:43.470
elements and just decided that it was a thing. And
1442
01:27:43.510 --> 01:27:47.449
you do see terrible fortune. I mean, the Twilight Zone movie,
1443
01:27:48.579 --> 01:27:50.430
in which you have the death of actor Vic Morrow
1444
01:27:50.510 --> 01:27:53.739
and two children. You know, that's often considered, that wasn't
1445
01:27:53.779 --> 01:27:59.489
a curse. That was illegal and shoddy work safety practices.
1446
01:27:59.569 --> 01:28:06.050
It's tragic, but there was a perfectly rational explanation for it. Now,
1447
01:28:06.069 --> 01:28:08.609
what fascinates me, though, is it gives us a lens
1448
01:28:08.710 --> 01:28:12.369
to view the power of belief. How much, you know,
1449
01:28:12.670 --> 01:28:16.310
influence does belief have in our life? Positive thinking, but
1450
01:28:16.350 --> 01:28:20.180
also negative thinking. If you're someone that believes in prayer,
1451
01:28:20.220 --> 01:28:25.010
for example, prayer to me is directed belief. You are
1452
01:28:25.050 --> 01:28:29.569
directing belief to a higher power, either on someone's behalf or,
1453
01:28:29.630 --> 01:28:33.970
you know, for a desired outcome. So people pray regularly
1454
01:28:34.010 --> 01:28:38.590
and sometimes en masse for a certain outcome. Remember when
1455
01:28:38.630 --> 01:28:40.609
all the miners were stuck underground? and there was a
1456
01:28:40.689 --> 01:28:45.520
global effort to pray for them? Sometimes there is a
1457
01:28:45.560 --> 01:28:48.920
success and sometimes there isn't. We tend to remember the
1458
01:28:48.960 --> 01:28:52.460
times when the prayer works and not the times when
1459
01:28:53.300 --> 01:28:56.560
it fails. Because then that raises the troubling question of
1460
01:28:57.039 --> 01:29:01.149
did people not pray hard enough? Were there not sufficient?
1461
01:29:01.189 --> 01:29:04.010
Is there a threshold, you know? The power that you're
1462
01:29:04.029 --> 01:29:06.590
praying to, does it require a certain level of? It
1463
01:29:07.630 --> 01:29:10.329
gets very interesting indeed when you start looking into that.
1464
01:29:10.729 --> 01:29:12.609
So the short version is, you know, you talked about
1465
01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:16.180
energies earlier on. I think that belief is an immensely
1466
01:29:16.260 --> 01:29:24.079
powerful force. But one also, I suspect, has to buy
1467
01:29:24.119 --> 01:29:26.819
into it themselves when it comes to a curse, you know?
1468
01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.239
Well, while we're on curses, you also write a bit
1469
01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:33.279
about cursed dolls. I'm sure everybody by now has heard
1470
01:29:33.319 --> 01:29:36.680
of the Annabelle and the Robert doll. Tell us a
1471
01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:38.500
little bit about what you cover in there.
1472
01:29:39.619 --> 01:29:42.390
Yeah, Robert the doll, of course, and the Curse of
1473
01:29:42.399 --> 01:29:46.710
the Crying Boy painting as well is something else, cursed paintings.
1474
01:29:46.729 --> 01:29:48.729
So we can kind of lump them all together under
1475
01:29:48.770 --> 01:29:52.569
cursed objects. And I think that when I've talked about
1476
01:29:52.609 --> 01:29:55.649
hauntings in the past, I've always said there are, broadly speaking,
1477
01:29:55.670 --> 01:29:59.659
three types of hauntings. cursed places, cursed objects, and cursed, sorry,
1478
01:29:59.939 --> 01:30:02.159
haunted places, objects, and people. And I think the same
1479
01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:05.819
applies to curses. You see curses supposedly on a location,
1480
01:30:06.479 --> 01:30:11.069
on an object, or on individuals. So I was looking
1481
01:30:11.109 --> 01:30:13.029
at some of the objects here, and Robert the Doll
1482
01:30:13.069 --> 01:30:16.590
is an interesting one in that there is a lot
1483
01:30:16.630 --> 01:30:19.350
of very strong beliefs surrounding that doll that if you
1484
01:30:19.390 --> 01:30:23.689
don't play by his rules, you run the risk of misfortune,
1485
01:30:23.729 --> 01:30:27.670
if not death. And what fascinates me is, As someone
1486
01:30:27.689 --> 01:30:32.470
who studied this, as someone who understands it, I don't
1487
01:30:32.510 --> 01:30:36.680
know how compelling I find the idea that this doll
1488
01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:39.319
has some kind of malign influence that will reach out
1489
01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:43.840
if you disrespect it. However, if you put me in
1490
01:30:43.880 --> 01:30:45.859
a room with that doll and tell me to take
1491
01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.420
a picture, I'm still going to ask his permission just
1492
01:30:49.500 --> 01:30:55.359
in case. Yeah. Like it's that. You know, I think
1493
01:30:55.399 --> 01:30:59.000
that we still like to hedge our bets, right? I
1494
01:30:59.020 --> 01:31:01.380
would still ask permission. I would still kind of obey
1495
01:31:01.399 --> 01:31:04.659
those rules. So it's intriguing that as someone that, you know,
1496
01:31:04.720 --> 01:31:08.789
has studied this extensively, I'm not immune either to the
1497
01:31:08.850 --> 01:31:13.109
psychological elements of, well, just in case, why run the risk?
1498
01:31:14.250 --> 01:31:18.390
Cursed pictures. This swept the UK back in the 70s
1499
01:31:18.449 --> 01:31:23.840
and 80s, the idea that this crying boy painting would
1500
01:31:24.060 --> 01:31:27.020
bring you bad luck because it was somehow cursed. No
1501
01:31:27.079 --> 01:31:28.960
one was quite sure how or why, but the story
1502
01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:31.739
took off and it got out there and it made newspapers.
1503
01:31:32.220 --> 01:31:35.060
And after it hit the newspapers, people started writing in
1504
01:31:35.100 --> 01:31:37.500
and saying, I have the crying boy painting on my
1505
01:31:38.060 --> 01:31:41.909
mantle and my house burned down. Or, you know, I
1506
01:31:42.449 --> 01:31:46.229
have the crying boy painting on my wall. And five
1507
01:31:46.289 --> 01:31:49.210
days ago, nevermind that they bought the painting six years before,
1508
01:31:49.630 --> 01:31:51.789
five days ago, you know, I was in a car
1509
01:31:51.810 --> 01:31:55.319
crash or stuff like that. people started connecting these dots
1510
01:31:55.699 --> 01:31:57.840
and making it look like a thing to the point
1511
01:31:57.880 --> 01:32:01.920
where the fire brigade had a mass burning. Well, the
1512
01:32:01.979 --> 01:32:04.479
fire brigade was helping with a mass burning that the
1513
01:32:04.520 --> 01:32:08.600
newspapers organized more accurately as a PR thing. They burned
1514
01:32:08.779 --> 01:32:11.989
hundreds of these pictures of the crying boy, supposedly to
1515
01:32:12.050 --> 01:32:15.170
end the curse. But I've seen that painting above people's
1516
01:32:15.970 --> 01:32:19.350
fireplaces to this day. So it's really interesting. There was
1517
01:32:19.409 --> 01:32:23.789
this seismic kind of belief that if you had that picture,
1518
01:32:24.909 --> 01:32:28.270
negative things could happen to you. But again, no one
1519
01:32:28.289 --> 01:32:32.029
knows quite where it started. And I don't know that
1520
01:32:32.069 --> 01:32:35.350
I find it a compelling thing, but would I want
1521
01:32:35.390 --> 01:32:37.430
it above my TV? I don't know.
1522
01:32:37.449 --> 01:32:41.350
Well, while we're talking about the power of belief and
1523
01:32:41.869 --> 01:32:47.770
how it seems to manifest phenomena in our reality at times, it,
1524
01:32:48.310 --> 01:32:53.329
links to the egregores or thought form possibility that if
1525
01:32:53.430 --> 01:32:57.210
we have a belief that's powerful enough, it can somehow
1526
01:32:57.369 --> 01:33:00.100
in some way manifest in our reality. And I wonder
1527
01:33:00.159 --> 01:33:04.800
if this is what's been happening with the extraterrestrial UFO phenomenon.
1528
01:33:05.300 --> 01:33:10.069
You remember how powerful the image on Whitley Stryber's communion
1529
01:33:10.130 --> 01:33:13.920
book that gray alien face when i saw that as
1530
01:33:13.979 --> 01:33:16.279
a kid it terrified me and it stuck with me
1531
01:33:16.659 --> 01:33:19.609
and i had nightmares and it really built upon something
1532
01:33:19.649 --> 01:33:22.470
and i wonder if this is what's happening for the
1533
01:33:22.510 --> 01:33:28.189
collective with a lot of similar extraterrestrial ufo lore.
1534
01:33:29.409 --> 01:33:31.939
Yeah i i have a very similar memory to you
1535
01:33:31.949 --> 01:33:36.300
a very visceral memory of um i'm a little bit
1536
01:33:36.340 --> 01:33:38.000
older than you i think so i was a younger
1537
01:33:38.020 --> 01:33:40.340
man at the time but of being in the high
1538
01:33:40.380 --> 01:33:43.380
street and passing a bookstore and seeing the cardboard cutout
1539
01:33:43.460 --> 01:33:45.880
of one of the grays staring back at me when
1540
01:33:45.899 --> 01:33:49.060
Whitley Strieber's book went on sale. And it was such
1541
01:33:49.149 --> 01:33:54.069
an iconic image, you know? I mean, Alienware, the computer
1542
01:33:54.109 --> 01:33:57.189
has that as their logo now, essentially. Everyone knows what
1543
01:33:57.210 --> 01:34:01.010
that means. Everyone recognizes that look, the inverted teardrop with
1544
01:34:01.029 --> 01:34:03.569
the big black almond-shaped eyes, you know? I can see
1545
01:34:03.609 --> 01:34:05.500
it behind you right now, over your shoulder, in fact,
1546
01:34:05.560 --> 01:34:05.920
on the wall.
1547
01:34:07.079 --> 01:34:08.760
You have it on yourself. So.
1548
01:34:09.729 --> 01:34:14.180
I think that, yeah, it's no coincidence that after that
1549
01:34:14.220 --> 01:34:18.640
hit in the mainstream, after Streber's book went everywhere, people started,
1550
01:34:19.460 --> 01:34:21.560
there was an explosion in the number of reports of
1551
01:34:21.619 --> 01:34:24.659
graves and abductions and things like that. So is it
1552
01:34:24.680 --> 01:34:26.010
an egregore kind of thing?
1553
01:34:26.090 --> 01:34:26.430
Maybe.
1554
01:34:27.710 --> 01:34:29.909
I think that that's a perfectly reasonable explanation for it.
1555
01:34:30.270 --> 01:34:33.689
The idea that tales grow in the telling and sometimes
1556
01:34:33.750 --> 01:34:37.710
appear to be able to manifest in reality. It's a
1557
01:34:37.750 --> 01:34:39.949
fascinating idea. And I've seen a number of hauntings that
1558
01:34:39.970 --> 01:34:44.640
work that way. One, a place called Malvern Manor in Iowa,
1559
01:34:45.189 --> 01:34:47.619
where the story, they tell the story of a little
1560
01:34:47.659 --> 01:34:52.899
girl that was accidentally hanged in that place and is
1561
01:34:52.960 --> 01:34:56.699
interacted with by visitors and investigators today. Well, when you
1562
01:34:56.720 --> 01:35:00.079
delve into the story, indeed, the little girl did meet
1563
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:02.920
this tragic end, but it was in a house elsewhere
1564
01:35:02.979 --> 01:35:06.899
in town. Never happened in that manor itself. But the
1565
01:35:06.939 --> 01:35:10.159
story kind of became associated with it. And by the
1566
01:35:10.229 --> 01:35:13.069
time the research had been done and showed that she
1567
01:35:13.130 --> 01:35:17.510
never actually died there, the egregore had already formed because
1568
01:35:17.609 --> 01:35:21.529
you had investigators speaking to something that claimed to be her,
1569
01:35:21.569 --> 01:35:25.319
that answered to her name, that behaved as if it
1570
01:35:25.460 --> 01:35:29.180
were a little girl. So, yeah, I think these stories
1571
01:35:29.220 --> 01:35:30.739
can grow in the telling. And I think that can
1572
01:35:30.779 --> 01:35:33.500
happen on a grand scale. There's just one thing I
1573
01:35:33.539 --> 01:35:37.470
don't get. And here's the big argument against egregores on
1574
01:35:37.479 --> 01:35:42.250
the mass scale, Santa Claus. Because if there is an
1575
01:35:42.369 --> 01:35:45.630
egregore waiting to happen, it should be every December the
1576
01:35:45.670 --> 01:35:48.909
24th in the skies above us, right? Where is he?
1577
01:35:50.329 --> 01:35:55.029
It seems to be more of an etheric phenomena, more
1578
01:35:55.329 --> 01:36:03.109
of psychological triggers that can seem to be manifesting physically
1579
01:36:03.170 --> 01:36:07.449
in our reality, but it's more of something that's deeply
1580
01:36:07.529 --> 01:36:12.310
psychologically rooted. But what you just said also goes back to,
1581
01:36:12.670 --> 01:36:16.390
you said that the communication was happening at this house
1582
01:36:16.430 --> 01:36:19.310
that wasn't really the house, but something was communicating with
1583
01:36:19.449 --> 01:36:24.449
these people. That brings up the trickster aspect or the
1584
01:36:24.689 --> 01:36:31.789
deceptive intelligence that seems to be able to access information
1585
01:36:32.170 --> 01:36:37.069
and communicate with people, but has a deceptive or trickster-like nature,
1586
01:36:37.829 --> 01:36:41.250
may give some of the information and may have nefarious
1587
01:36:41.310 --> 01:36:45.239
purposes behind giving the information. What are your thoughts on that?
1588
01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:51.119
Yeah, Kiel wrote about that extensively, didn't he? And that
1589
01:36:51.140 --> 01:36:52.739
was on my mind because I have a book coming
1590
01:36:52.819 --> 01:36:56.520
out in September about Mothma. So we kind of looked
1591
01:36:56.649 --> 01:36:59.680
into that ultra terrestrial and the trickster and things of
1592
01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:03.119
that nature. Yeah, I think it's entirely possible. We love
1593
01:37:03.159 --> 01:37:05.079
to say that the universe has a sick sense of
1594
01:37:05.119 --> 01:37:07.619
humor sometimes or a bleak sense of humor sometimes. And
1595
01:37:07.659 --> 01:37:10.439
it does seem that way, doesn't it? It does sometimes
1596
01:37:10.500 --> 01:37:12.960
seem as though we are the butt of one enormous
1597
01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:19.680
practical joke. Not to bring the conventional, you know, everyday
1598
01:37:19.720 --> 01:37:22.500
reality too much into the show, but I'm hearing more
1599
01:37:22.539 --> 01:37:25.939
and more people say this year, how is this timeline
1600
01:37:25.979 --> 01:37:29.779
not the stupidest? You know, we just, and it kind
1601
01:37:29.819 --> 01:37:32.579
of feels that way, doesn't it? It almost feels like
1602
01:37:32.640 --> 01:37:35.140
this is, you know, season eight of a show that
1603
01:37:35.199 --> 01:37:39.399
jumped the shark four years ago. And it's just getting
1604
01:37:39.479 --> 01:37:41.859
more and more ridiculous. And so I think it's, it
1605
01:37:41.899 --> 01:37:44.890
does speak to a degree to the cosmic trickster phenomenon
1606
01:37:44.909 --> 01:37:49.470
that you're talking about. I find that surprisingly and sadly
1607
01:37:49.590 --> 01:37:50.250
very incredible.
1608
01:37:50.949 --> 01:37:51.229
Yeah.
1609
01:37:51.270 --> 01:37:54.710
Well, even more disturbing for me, and this is, going
1610
01:37:54.729 --> 01:37:59.060
to lead to shapeshifters and skinwalkers and things like that
1611
01:37:59.779 --> 01:38:05.880
is the human element behind all this, specifically the military,
1612
01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:13.489
very black project aspects of this, where they are involved
1613
01:38:13.689 --> 01:38:17.949
in studying some of this phenomena and most likely have
1614
01:38:18.029 --> 01:38:20.390
more knowledge of it than they would be letting on,
1615
01:38:20.829 --> 01:38:26.039
possibly weaponizing it. And I've come to the, this realization
1616
01:38:26.100 --> 01:38:29.510
more and more, especially after I went visit Skinwalker Ranch
1617
01:38:29.550 --> 01:38:32.510
with one of my friends ryan burns who has a
1618
01:38:32.590 --> 01:38:36.510
research center right next to you know ryan yeah he
1619
01:38:36.529 --> 01:38:39.670
has the space world research center i went spend a
1620
01:38:42.649 --> 01:38:46.489
Strangest thing wasn't the UFOs or the paranormal activity. The
1621
01:38:46.510 --> 01:38:49.550
most concerning aspect was the black ops teams that were
1622
01:38:49.590 --> 01:38:52.869
surrounding us. We wouldn't have seen them if Brian didn't
1623
01:38:52.989 --> 01:38:56.710
have these night vision goggles and we could see them
1624
01:38:56.770 --> 01:39:00.930
point lasered at us, surrounding us, the shadows walking around.
1625
01:39:00.970 --> 01:39:05.279
And it was definitely military. And from what I understand,
1626
01:39:05.340 --> 01:39:09.890
it's a testing ground for very exotic weaponry that you,
1627
01:39:10.279 --> 01:39:13.010
It may or may not be in use already, but
1628
01:39:13.449 --> 01:39:17.470
it includes everything from UFO technology, technology to make people
1629
01:39:17.729 --> 01:39:22.970
hallucinate and mimic paranormal activity. So if these things are
1630
01:39:23.029 --> 01:39:25.270
going on and being tested there, how much is it
1631
01:39:25.329 --> 01:39:29.380
being implemented? How much has it already been? The human
1632
01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:32.680
aspect is more concerning than any ghost to me.
1633
01:39:35.300 --> 01:39:37.600
I think that's true across the paranormal field. There's an
1634
01:39:37.659 --> 01:39:39.859
old saying, you know, don't fear the dead, fear the living.
1635
01:39:40.649 --> 01:39:44.899
And I think that is absolutely 100% true. If there
1636
01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:47.500
is any real danger in this field, I don't believe
1637
01:39:47.539 --> 01:39:50.220
that it's going to come from monsters or creatures or
1638
01:39:50.260 --> 01:39:53.399
dark forces. I believe that it wears a human face.
1639
01:39:54.539 --> 01:40:00.659
Going to the Skinwalker lore, that's what really stands out
1640
01:40:00.699 --> 01:40:03.319
for people when they think of places like Skinwalker Ranch,
1641
01:40:03.340 --> 01:40:06.439
although there's much more that occurs there. I do believe
1642
01:40:06.489 --> 01:40:10.359
there is levels of natural, if you could call that
1643
01:40:10.439 --> 01:40:15.819
natural phenomena, or even more ancient occult ritual practices that
1644
01:40:15.859 --> 01:40:19.260
are said to be being used by some of the
1645
01:40:19.439 --> 01:40:24.399
natives and practitioners in the area that they may be
1646
01:40:24.520 --> 01:40:30.319
projecting themselves as these creatures or animals using some sort
1647
01:40:30.359 --> 01:40:35.100
of magic. This is what I've heard through my travels
1648
01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:37.550
and the different guests that I've had, but tell us
1649
01:40:37.590 --> 01:40:39.710
a little bit about what you write about skinwalkers.
1650
01:40:41.250 --> 01:40:44.810
I've always found the phenomenon fascinating. The idea that, at
1651
01:40:44.829 --> 01:40:49.489
least in the truest sense, that an individual can, it's
1652
01:40:49.529 --> 01:40:51.609
the native version of a deal with the devil, right?
1653
01:40:51.649 --> 01:40:55.529
Or making a pact with dark powers. One is said
1654
01:40:55.609 --> 01:41:00.310
to have to perform an act of usually murdering an
1655
01:41:00.350 --> 01:41:05.729
innocent is fairly common. And certain rituals, often that innocent
1656
01:41:05.810 --> 01:41:07.930
is a loved one or a family member of their own,
1657
01:41:07.989 --> 01:41:11.250
someone that's dear to the individual who seeks this power.
1658
01:41:11.649 --> 01:41:16.130
And in exchange, as they're part of the compact, they're
1659
01:41:16.850 --> 01:41:22.729
given the ability to morph, to shapeshift into either an
1660
01:41:22.829 --> 01:41:25.090
actual animal, something that looks like an animal, or an
1661
01:41:25.250 --> 01:41:30.090
animal-human hybrid form. And this is something that if it
1662
01:41:30.130 --> 01:41:33.029
sounds like it belongs in a horror movie, it's something
1663
01:41:33.069 --> 01:41:39.369
that is taken deathly seriously by native tribes. And Skinwalker Ranch,
1664
01:41:39.409 --> 01:41:42.989
you know, I've heard stories of native people that flat
1665
01:41:43.069 --> 01:41:45.590
refuse if they're in the area to even look at
1666
01:41:45.649 --> 01:41:48.689
Skinwalker Ridge, like they will turn away and not look
1667
01:41:48.829 --> 01:41:51.590
at it. It holds such a power over them. And
1668
01:41:51.630 --> 01:41:56.560
I absolutely respect that they hold these beliefs. I interviewed
1669
01:41:56.600 --> 01:42:02.289
a wildland firefighter who wanted to remain anonymous, which really
1670
01:42:02.310 --> 01:42:04.470
spoke to their credibility. But they told me about a
1671
01:42:04.489 --> 01:42:07.750
time that they were attached to a native wildland firefighting
1672
01:42:07.810 --> 01:42:11.529
team on an incident. And there was an individual on
1673
01:42:11.569 --> 01:42:16.260
that team that they called Wolf Boy. And he had
1674
01:42:16.310 --> 01:42:21.760
the ability, they insisted, to change into a wolf. And
1675
01:42:21.819 --> 01:42:25.720
the firefighter told me that after the fire one night, Um,
1676
01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:28.659
after having heard wolves howling that they looked out of
1677
01:42:28.720 --> 01:42:34.420
their tent, uh, and, uh, w there was the biggest wolf.
1678
01:42:35.159 --> 01:42:39.159
They had ever seen standing right outside wolf boys, 10
1679
01:42:39.159 --> 01:42:43.180
looked right at them and then walked away. Um, and
1680
01:42:43.220 --> 01:42:45.859
when I was doing that interview, I was watching the firefighter,
1681
01:42:45.960 --> 01:42:49.069
you know, with, with great interest, watching the body language
1682
01:42:49.109 --> 01:42:51.310
and so on. This isn't someone that was spinning me
1683
01:42:51.329 --> 01:42:53.909
a story. And they said, I'm not going to tell
1684
01:42:53.930 --> 01:42:55.550
you any more about Wolf Boy. I'm not going to
1685
01:42:55.590 --> 01:42:58.909
tell you which state this was because you might just
1686
01:42:58.989 --> 01:43:01.369
end up with him standing in your backyard one night.
1687
01:43:02.770 --> 01:43:03.850
Yeah.
1688
01:43:03.880 --> 01:43:05.659
So, you know, the fact that I even got that
1689
01:43:05.720 --> 01:43:11.159
experience at all, got to hear that story was immensely powerful.
1690
01:43:12.100 --> 01:43:15.899
And this is a belief that is longstanding. It's deep rooted,
1691
01:43:15.960 --> 01:43:20.729
very pervasive. And I certainly respect it. What are your thoughts?
1692
01:43:21.880 --> 01:43:26.539
See, the most interesting part to me is, are these
1693
01:43:26.739 --> 01:43:33.189
phenomena some sort of projections from the occult ritual, or
1694
01:43:33.310 --> 01:43:38.029
are they actually able to shapeshift into these creatures? And
1695
01:43:38.069 --> 01:43:41.930
this is one that... Even Ryan couldn't answer after being
1696
01:43:42.050 --> 01:43:45.149
around the phenomenon on a daily basis. He said it
1697
01:43:45.210 --> 01:43:48.029
could be even a mixture of both, that it's that
1698
01:43:48.090 --> 01:43:52.539
profound that these creatures, these wolves, they can appear to
1699
01:43:52.600 --> 01:43:55.800
be very physical, real things, but at times he's even
1700
01:43:55.899 --> 01:44:02.550
seen them dissipate into dust tornadoes. He's seen humans actually
1701
01:44:02.609 --> 01:44:07.920
become dogs. things that extreme. So it's almost impossible to
1702
01:44:07.960 --> 01:44:10.340
probably know what is really occurring there.
1703
01:44:11.659 --> 01:44:13.760
It does make a degree of sense because, I mean,
1704
01:44:14.319 --> 01:44:16.619
for the current book I'm working on now, which is
1705
01:44:17.250 --> 01:44:20.010
in this same series for the same publisher, you know,
1706
01:44:20.109 --> 01:44:24.430
I've been looking at cryptids. I've been looking at things
1707
01:44:24.470 --> 01:44:27.850
like lycanthropy, you know, werewolves, which we do touch on
1708
01:44:27.869 --> 01:44:31.140
a little bit in Dark Spirits. Clinical lycanthropy is a
1709
01:44:31.189 --> 01:44:36.130
medical condition. It's commonly accepted. It's in the psychological texts,
1710
01:44:36.210 --> 01:44:40.069
you know. However, what we're talking about with skinwalkers is
1711
01:44:40.130 --> 01:44:45.689
the ability to literally transform one's body. How does that physically,
1712
01:44:46.250 --> 01:44:48.170
what are the nuts and bolts of that? How does
1713
01:44:48.210 --> 01:44:52.609
that physically work? It shouldn't be possible, you know, and
1714
01:44:52.810 --> 01:44:55.930
then reverting back to a human form. So is there
1715
01:44:55.989 --> 01:44:59.630
something occult going on? Is there some kind of projected
1716
01:44:59.729 --> 01:45:02.270
energy body? You know, as you said, is there a
1717
01:45:02.329 --> 01:45:08.100
degree of, that they're not literally transforming the meat themselves, but,
1718
01:45:08.180 --> 01:45:12.380
but something else is being formed and projected. I think
1719
01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:15.439
that we should just consider that possibility. It seems more
1720
01:45:15.510 --> 01:45:18.310
feasible to me than the idea that you can take
1721
01:45:18.359 --> 01:45:21.149
a six foot three individual like me and turn it
1722
01:45:21.210 --> 01:45:24.430
into something that has a fraction of the mass or
1723
01:45:24.470 --> 01:45:25.569
more mass, you know?
1724
01:45:25.890 --> 01:45:26.229
Yeah.
1725
01:45:26.729 --> 01:45:31.100
Some of the stories that I've heard from, not only Ryan,
1726
01:45:31.140 --> 01:45:33.979
but different residents of the area when I went visit
1727
01:45:34.039 --> 01:45:41.640
his security team are so unbelievable because it's completely difficult
1728
01:45:41.680 --> 01:45:44.659
for a person who's never experienced anything like that to
1729
01:45:45.229 --> 01:45:49.319
imagine it first off, but having the extreme level of phenomenon,
1730
01:45:49.390 --> 01:45:55.390
like people shape-shifting into dogs and UFOs manifesting and creatures
1731
01:45:55.470 --> 01:45:59.310
and Bigfoot, and this is all occurring in one area.
1732
01:46:00.109 --> 01:46:03.970
What could be occurring in this area? Is there some
1733
01:46:04.050 --> 01:46:09.529
sort of enhanced energy there that allows this to occur
1734
01:46:09.550 --> 01:46:12.109
more often? Do you have any theories about that?
1735
01:46:14.239 --> 01:46:17.300
Why is it located geographically in that one area? I mean,
1736
01:46:17.539 --> 01:46:21.520
the Wintel Basin, it's long believed to be sacred ground,
1737
01:46:21.560 --> 01:46:24.100
you know, and we see these places on Earth, right?
1738
01:46:24.159 --> 01:46:29.850
Glastonbury in the UK, areas around Stonehenge, places like that.
1739
01:46:30.350 --> 01:46:33.420
They just seem, and I realize this is technically incorrect,
1740
01:46:33.460 --> 01:46:38.140
but they just seem older. They seem more ancient. It's
1741
01:46:38.279 --> 01:46:42.340
almost as if time has operated differently there and that
1742
01:46:42.359 --> 01:46:46.539
there are properties of that ground which are different than
1743
01:46:46.859 --> 01:46:50.689
other places. Does that make sense? Now, what we actually
1744
01:46:50.729 --> 01:46:52.989
call that, what we label it, how we categorize it,
1745
01:46:53.229 --> 01:46:55.949
I don't know. Sometimes I think we see them as
1746
01:46:56.029 --> 01:47:00.560
mystical places. You know, they become places of worship. People
1747
01:47:00.619 --> 01:47:04.119
were drawn to those places in antiquity and performed their
1748
01:47:04.220 --> 01:47:10.699
own ceremonies and rituals there. I think that many places
1749
01:47:10.760 --> 01:47:12.359
in the world or a number of places in the
1750
01:47:12.399 --> 01:47:15.600
world have become these kind of holy spots or these
1751
01:47:15.680 --> 01:47:20.000
mystical spots where people seem drawn. I just don't know
1752
01:47:20.060 --> 01:47:22.119
what the mechanism behind that is.
1753
01:47:23.100 --> 01:47:28.560
While we're in the realm of, paranormal high strangeness that
1754
01:47:28.739 --> 01:47:32.539
is concentrated in that area. There's also a lot of
1755
01:47:32.680 --> 01:47:37.659
what people would consider extraterrestrial and UFO activity. And you
1756
01:47:37.720 --> 01:47:42.840
write about abductions, mutilations, and encounters with men in black
1757
01:47:42.899 --> 01:47:45.399
and even black eyed children. Tell us a little bit
1758
01:47:45.439 --> 01:47:46.500
about what you cover there.
1759
01:47:47.920 --> 01:47:51.039
Yeah, and the commonalities there are interesting. We talked about
1760
01:47:51.060 --> 01:47:53.720
this earlier, didn't we? The idea that it's a phenomenon
1761
01:47:53.760 --> 01:47:57.909
that is multifaceted and multilayered. So many UFO cases have
1762
01:47:57.949 --> 01:47:59.850
the men in black, but then when I was in
1763
01:47:59.890 --> 01:48:04.029
Point Pleasant with my co-author Tobias researching the Mothman book,
1764
01:48:05.539 --> 01:48:07.739
the men in black play a role in the Mothman story.
1765
01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:11.680
Before the Silver Bridge collapsed, people were talking about seeing
1766
01:48:11.760 --> 01:48:15.590
men in black around the town and that they would
1767
01:48:16.229 --> 01:48:22.340
approach and sometimes intimidate witnesses that have these Mothman encounter stories. So,
1768
01:48:22.560 --> 01:48:24.960
you know, it fascinates me again that we see these
1769
01:48:25.380 --> 01:48:29.399
this multilayered. You described it as like peeling back the
1770
01:48:29.420 --> 01:48:31.079
layers of an onion earlier. And I think that's a
1771
01:48:31.119 --> 01:48:37.199
great analogy. This connection between the UFOs. The Black Eyed Children,
1772
01:48:37.859 --> 01:48:40.949
I know that they're a relatively recent phenomenon, but they
1773
01:48:41.010 --> 01:48:45.670
are somewhat global. Britain has its own stories. Cannock Chase
1774
01:48:45.770 --> 01:48:48.229
in Britain has stories of Black Eyed Children in it,
1775
01:48:48.270 --> 01:48:52.300
for example. But they've only really been doing the rounds
1776
01:48:52.380 --> 01:48:54.920
for about, what, 25 years, I would say, maybe 30
1777
01:48:54.920 --> 01:48:59.319
years tops. And then suddenly they take off. The stories
1778
01:48:59.359 --> 01:49:02.630
take off and they are everywhere. So it does fascinate
1779
01:49:02.670 --> 01:49:05.289
me as well that once a story breaks like this
1780
01:49:05.329 --> 01:49:09.050
and it gains some traction, you start to see reports
1781
01:49:09.090 --> 01:49:15.289
of these phenomena cropping up everywhere. The MIB stuff, you
1782
01:49:15.350 --> 01:49:18.329
rarely hear those stories anymore. You rarely hear men in
1783
01:49:18.350 --> 01:49:21.390
black stories anymore. And I do wonder if, you know,
1784
01:49:21.449 --> 01:49:25.229
that kind of peaked with the movies when Will Smith
1785
01:49:25.289 --> 01:49:27.529
and Tommy Lee Jones turned them into figures of fun.
1786
01:49:28.060 --> 01:49:31.109
which if you talk to anyone that's ever reported an encounter,
1787
01:49:31.130 --> 01:49:34.750
they most definitely are not. They took something sinister and
1788
01:49:34.789 --> 01:49:38.750
made it humorous and then beat that franchise to death.
1789
01:49:39.949 --> 01:49:42.029
But I wonder if, you know, the Black Eyed Kids,
1790
01:49:42.149 --> 01:49:44.810
I mean, I haven't seen any attempts yet to make
1791
01:49:44.869 --> 01:49:47.560
them cutesy or anything, but would it rob them of
1792
01:49:47.609 --> 01:49:49.340
some of that power if it happened? It would be
1793
01:49:49.359 --> 01:49:50.399
interesting to see, wouldn't it?
1794
01:49:51.210 --> 01:49:56.689
It seems like the entire UFO extraterrestrial phenomena evolves with
1795
01:49:56.770 --> 01:50:01.170
human consciousness where we're at technologically. You could probably even
1796
01:50:01.250 --> 01:50:04.560
take it back to the most ancient writings of fairies
1797
01:50:04.640 --> 01:50:09.600
and nature spirits and find overlap with UFO abductions. You
1798
01:50:09.659 --> 01:50:13.560
move forward in history, it becomes the airships and then
1799
01:50:13.619 --> 01:50:19.220
the saucers. And now we're seeing these plasma lights– The drones,
1800
01:50:19.399 --> 01:50:24.789
it's all correlating with our understanding of technology and where
1801
01:50:24.829 --> 01:50:26.029
we're at collectively.
1802
01:50:27.489 --> 01:50:30.189
It always seems to be, certainly with relation to the
1803
01:50:30.289 --> 01:50:32.989
UFO phenomenon, but yeah, you talked about the airships, which
1804
01:50:33.010 --> 01:50:37.579
the Victorian era had a whole bunch of those. It
1805
01:50:37.659 --> 01:50:41.300
seems to be just one step ahead of where we're
1806
01:50:41.359 --> 01:50:43.359
at as a species technologically, you know?
1807
01:50:43.380 --> 01:50:44.220
Yeah.
1808
01:50:45.329 --> 01:50:47.529
For example, you look at, you know, Adamski and some
1809
01:50:47.569 --> 01:50:51.210
of the early kind of UFO contactee stories. And where
1810
01:50:51.250 --> 01:50:53.899
were their bases? They were on Moon. They were on Mars.
1811
01:50:53.939 --> 01:50:56.739
They were on Venus. And, hey, Venus was this wonderful
1812
01:50:56.859 --> 01:51:01.239
Earth-like environment, right, where they had jungles and rainforests, and
1813
01:51:01.260 --> 01:51:04.380
it was paradise. And then we sent probes there, and, oh,
1814
01:51:04.420 --> 01:51:06.899
Venus turned out to be a hellhole. I mean, like,
1815
01:51:07.020 --> 01:51:10.029
you could not possibly live there. You could not exist
1816
01:51:10.489 --> 01:51:14.210
on Venus. And what happened to those stories? Well, actually,
1817
01:51:14.310 --> 01:51:16.810
our bases are further out in the solar system, you know,
1818
01:51:17.619 --> 01:51:20.279
moons of Saturn and Jupiter and stuff like that. We
1819
01:51:20.319 --> 01:51:21.260
sent probes out there.
1820
01:51:21.680 --> 01:51:22.220
Nobody there.
1821
01:51:22.539 --> 01:51:26.979
Well, actually, Alpha Centauri is where, you know, the phenomena
1822
01:51:27.020 --> 01:51:29.289
is always just one step away from our actual reach.
1823
01:51:29.329 --> 01:51:31.729
And by the same token, as you said, you know,
1824
01:51:32.810 --> 01:51:36.510
during the 90s, especially the late 80s, early 90s, we
1825
01:51:36.550 --> 01:51:40.649
saw the black triangular craft were a thing. And then
1826
01:51:40.659 --> 01:51:42.670
of course, Hey Presto, we have the stealth bomb of
1827
01:51:42.689 --> 01:51:46.810
the BT spirit. Um, this, the idea of this, you know,
1828
01:51:47.449 --> 01:51:52.149
black stealthy shape soundlessly kind of moving through the skies, um,
1829
01:51:52.270 --> 01:51:55.180
and the triangular UFO flaps and the Belgian UFO wave
1830
01:51:55.199 --> 01:51:57.239
and things like that. And it kind of fit with
1831
01:51:57.279 --> 01:52:00.579
our stealth technology drones now are everywhere. And we're seeing
1832
01:52:00.619 --> 01:52:03.680
this flap of drones all around the world. You know, I've,
1833
01:52:04.119 --> 01:52:08.449
I've case reports coming in from the UK, from India, um, from, um,
1834
01:52:08.920 --> 01:52:13.359
multiple different countries. And of course, they're drones that dwarf
1835
01:52:13.619 --> 01:52:17.390
our drones in size and capability. We have the Tic
1836
01:52:17.430 --> 01:52:20.010
Tac UFO and all that kind of stuff. So I
1837
01:52:20.050 --> 01:52:23.390
think as we see another leap forward in our technology,
1838
01:52:23.510 --> 01:52:26.850
I think we will see this phenomenon step ahead again.
1839
01:52:27.329 --> 01:52:31.229
That's the way it has always been. Just seems maddeningly
1840
01:52:31.529 --> 01:52:32.289
out of our grasp.
1841
01:52:32.909 --> 01:52:36.090
And that's why I can't go along with those that
1842
01:52:36.149 --> 01:52:41.340
say it is just are deep state military it's just
1843
01:52:41.939 --> 01:52:47.659
the the hidden aspects of our military industrial complex that
1844
01:52:48.119 --> 01:52:50.800
they are always just a step ahead and they may
1845
01:52:50.840 --> 01:52:55.319
be guiding the collective consciousness a certain way when it
1846
01:52:55.380 --> 01:53:00.239
comes to the ufo extraterrestrial phenomena for whatever reason maybe
1847
01:53:00.350 --> 01:53:03.529
to roll out new technologies or whatever but like you
1848
01:53:03.550 --> 01:53:09.810
said this has been going on since just been shifting
1849
01:53:09.869 --> 01:53:14.689
and changing seemingly just a step ahead of where the
1850
01:53:14.750 --> 01:53:16.189
collective consciousness is.
1851
01:53:17.649 --> 01:53:17.930
Right.
1852
01:53:18.510 --> 01:53:22.390
And I don't see that changing anytime soon. The goalposts
1853
01:53:22.449 --> 01:53:27.300
are constantly being moved. It's almost as if it's a
1854
01:53:27.409 --> 01:53:30.380
carrot being dangled in front of us in some ways.
1855
01:53:30.859 --> 01:53:35.020
The old idea that you would take a carrot dangling
1856
01:53:35.060 --> 01:53:38.069
on a stick and use it to motivate a horse Um,
1857
01:53:38.510 --> 01:53:40.369
it kind of feels like that in some ways too,
1858
01:53:40.430 --> 01:53:42.489
like here we are, here we are, here we are.
1859
01:53:42.989 --> 01:53:45.880
We make that leap and they leap, you know, one
1860
01:53:45.920 --> 01:53:50.579
step ahead of us. So, um, yeah, it's, it continues
1861
01:53:50.640 --> 01:53:53.199
to intrigue and fascinate. And I do think that the
1862
01:53:53.279 --> 01:53:58.300
extraterrestrial hypothesis is just one of several possibilities. Um, in
1863
01:53:58.340 --> 01:54:00.579
the same token, as we said earlier, you know, let's
1864
01:54:00.640 --> 01:54:03.319
not be lazy and default to ghosts equal dead people.
1865
01:54:03.899 --> 01:54:08.579
Let's not default to UFO slash UAP equals aliens either.
1866
01:54:10.739 --> 01:54:14.319
It's fascinating. And like we're saying, the more you learn
1867
01:54:14.359 --> 01:54:17.670
about it, the more layers there seem to be. Richard,
1868
01:54:17.710 --> 01:54:20.609
thank you so much. This was great. Before we close out,
1869
01:54:21.069 --> 01:54:23.710
you were saying that you have some projects you're working on.
1870
01:54:23.770 --> 01:54:25.569
Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that
1871
01:54:25.770 --> 01:54:28.939
and where the audience can find all your current work.
1872
01:54:30.310 --> 01:54:34.750
Absolutely. You can find me online at richardestep.net and across
1873
01:54:34.789 --> 01:54:38.130
various social media as Richard Estep Author. You can buy
1874
01:54:38.170 --> 01:54:40.970
my books. Of course, the online major retailers have them,
1875
01:54:41.010 --> 01:54:43.880
but your local independently owned bookstore can also order them
1876
01:54:43.909 --> 01:54:47.260
in for you. And I definitely advocate sending them some
1877
01:54:47.300 --> 01:54:51.939
love and supporting your local bookseller. Currently, I am working
1878
01:54:52.199 --> 01:54:56.539
on a book called Mothman with Tobias Weyland for the
1879
01:54:56.560 --> 01:55:00.029
Well and Worldwide. That comes out September 8th. And if
1880
01:55:00.069 --> 01:55:01.850
you enjoy Dark Spirits, which is the book we've been
1881
01:55:01.869 --> 01:55:04.130
talking about today, I have a book, the next in
1882
01:55:04.149 --> 01:55:07.770
the series from the same publisher comes out September 9.
1883
01:55:07.770 --> 01:55:10.909
That is called Ghostly Encounters. And that looks at some
1884
01:55:11.060 --> 01:55:15.380
classic cases of hauntings throughout our history. And it's my
1885
01:55:15.420 --> 01:55:18.039
take on them. So things like the Borley Rectory haunting,
1886
01:55:18.079 --> 01:55:21.500
the Bell Witch of Tennessee, the R101 airship crash and
1887
01:55:21.520 --> 01:55:22.340
things of that nature.
1888
01:55:23.039 --> 01:55:25.479
Excellent. Richard, thank you so much. There's so much more
1889
01:55:25.520 --> 01:55:27.949
we get into. Definitely love to have you back in
1890
01:55:27.970 --> 01:55:31.670
the future. And until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening.
1891
01:55:31.890 --> 01:55:33.350
We'll talk again tomorrow.
1892
01:55:33.989 --> 01:55:34.649
See y'all then.
1893
01:55:38.789 --> 01:55:42.369
The nature of this experience seems to always be just
1894
01:55:42.430 --> 01:55:47.100
beyond the reach of our science, technology, and... Hey guys,
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Are you struggling to lose weight and keep it off?
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moving more. In our modern environment full of obesogenic chemicals
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and endocrine disruptors, xenoestrogens and persistent organic pollutants, as well
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as unprecedented levels of stress, a more sophisticated approach is
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regimens with his clients. Instead, his focus is on improving
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In addition, he's going to help you boost your detoxification
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If you are done with the fat diets and intermittent
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