#FreedmenFriday Law Professor Justin Hansford is Building an Army of Lawyers for Reparations

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Like my papa would say, it's nation time. You know
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what time it is? It's reparations time. We do this
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every single Friday at this hour. We talk about reparations.
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We've been doing it for over two years. We want
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you to be abreast. We want us to be abreast.
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We want to be part of the momentum, part of
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the solution, and be well educated on all the things
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that are moving. So honored to welcome into the space.
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professor of law and founder of the Ogletree Reparative Bar Association,
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director of the Thurgood Marshall Civil Rights Center at Georgetown University.
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And he is a professor at the Howard University School
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of Law. Welcome, welcome, welcome. It is great to have
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you on. Professor... Professor Justin Hansford, it is an honor
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to have you on.
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Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
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And I was just going to say, I'm here in D.C.
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and I'm just learning about your show. And I see
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all of these wonderful episodes. I'm going to have to
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be scrolling through your YouTube in the coming days to
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get caught up. But it seems like you're doing great work.
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So glad to be here.
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Thank you. Well, when it's specifically reparations, if you go
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to my website, which is DominiqueDeprima.com, there's a link to
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just the Friedman Friday show. So it's easy to get them. But, um, so,
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you know, let's start with the UN cause I know
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in 2023 you went and you made a speech to
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the UN talking about reparations and how it's the urgency
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of now. And then, then, uh, you know, and then
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we see, uh, this year, the, um, the passage of
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this resolution coming out of Ghana, what do you make
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of that? How did you feel about it? Um, Yeah,
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talk to me about that after, you know, following your speech, actually.
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Yeah, thanks. Yeah, well, that also was an honor. I
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had a chance to speak right before that session, about
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a day before that session, and really try to urge
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all of the countries to support the resolution. And that
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happened because I'm part of something called the United Nations
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Permanent Forum on People of African Descent. So... It's a
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body that speaks to the human rights issues of the
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African diaspora. And every year we have about a thousand
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organizations that come from throughout the black world and talk
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to us about what's happening and what issues the UN
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should address. So I've been on that body for five years.
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And as a result of that, I'm in the mix
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with a lot of these discussions. And this particular resolution,
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March 25th, is really a historic turning point because Your
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listeners probably know this, but this was a first in
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the history of the UN type of event in terms
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of over 123, I believe it was exactly 123 countries
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that said that, yes, we believe that transatlantic slave trade
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was the gravest crime against humanity. And 58 nations, mostly
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in Europe, decided to abstain, and only three countries abstained.
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decided to vote no, and that was Israel, Argentina, and
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of course the United States of America, who decided to
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be the outliers on this issue. But now we have
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a global voice, if not a global consensus, because we
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have these three outliers. Most countries in the world believe
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that reparations are due. We can now officially say that.
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So for folks who think this is some sort of fringe,
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radical issue, actually, if you look the world over, In
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the eyes of most of the world, this is common
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sense and this is human rights. So it's a sea
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change in how we should think about our work because
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right now the rest of the world is looking at
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this as something that should be a no-brainer.
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So what does it mean then that the U.S., Argentina,
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and Israel abstained? Is it significant or how do you
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see that?
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Right, well... Most people don't know that Argentina is a
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country that at one point had a large black population,
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but essentially went on a campaign of almost ethnic cleansing.
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And to the extent that now, I think it's under
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2% to 3% black. At one point, there were some
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of its major cities that were almost half black. And
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we know that there was a time when Nazis fled
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to Argentina after World War II. So here you have
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a country... joining with Israel when we know what's happened
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there and we know what's happened here in the United
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States with this country. So these three countries, when it
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comes to the question of racism, have already made their
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position known around the world. So that's the biggest symbol
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to me, and to me it almost makes it more
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legitimate in terms of the fact that out of all
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the countries to abstain, not abstain, but to oppose, you
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had these three, you know, assembling what they stand for. Now,
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being people who live in the United States and, you know,
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folks on both sides of my family go back to
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plantations here in the United States, it's important for us
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to realize that, you know, we are in a system
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that is that outlier in terms of racism. I could
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almost say that one of the three most racist places
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in the world. So what does that mean for our
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advocacy and who are we appealing to for justice? It's
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part of the reason why I was wanted to be
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involved in the UN in the first place because Malcolm
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X and others have said for many years that we
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have to appeal to the world. We can't go to
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the same folks who committed the crime to solve our
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crime or give us justice for the crime. We have
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to go to the broader human platform that the UN
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represents and that these global projects represent to get justice.
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To me, it just reinforces the philosophy of a lot
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of the work that I've done on that global stage,
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and I'm hoping that it encourages your listeners also to
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embrace that global perspective.
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You know, it's interesting you say that. It's, you know,
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it's the concept behind Audre Lorde's quote, the master's tools
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will never dismantle the master's house. But does that apply
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to the Jamaicans who are now taking their case to
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the Privy Council, which is the sort of colonial... era British,
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I guess, justice panel? That is, they're going to be
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considering their reparations case?
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Now, how do you mean when you say, is that
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the case?
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Well, because they're trying to use the English law system,
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the English colonial system, against the English in order to
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get their reparations. But is that a case of trying
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to get, you know, get the people that harmed you
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to do the right thing under their own system of justice?
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Yes, that's what it sounds like. I will say, when
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I learned about that taking place, I had a lot
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of questions, and I'm still learning about that process. I
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have said that, although I do understand what they're trying
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to do, here in the U.S., we've had lawsuits using
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our own American constitutional system to try to get reparations,
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most recently in Tulsa. And, you know, of course, over
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the years, we've been trying to do the same thing.
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So I can't say that we haven't also done the
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same process as lawyers here in the U.S. to try
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to use the existing systems, because those are the systems that,
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you know, we know that have force and that you
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can enforce. The critique for the the attempt to use
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other systems, like the UN and international human rights law,
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is that these governments don't recognize this, especially in the U.S.
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So is it just symbolic to have the UN say
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that reparations are due when the U.S., in response to
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that March 25th resolution, just scoffed at it? They sent
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out a message saying that slavery was legal at the time. So,
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you know, no reparations are due and they have ignored
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it ever since. And if anything, they've been more hostile
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to the U.N. because of it. So there's an argument
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that when you use these platforms that these governments don't acknowledge,
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you know, it's just symbolic. It's not really moving the needle.
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So I understand the thinking behind it, you know, but
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it certainly has its limitations. Like you said, we're using
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the master's tools.
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Professor Justin Hansford is my guest, and we're going to
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talk more about reparations. That's what we do. I have
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questions about where we are right now in this country,
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how we can move forward, and what you referenced regarding
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the legal route, the courts versus the legislation, and how
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we move forward under our current environment. All that is
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coming up. Friedman Friday, KBLA Talk 1580. I'm glad you're here.
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We are talking with Professor Hansford out of the Ogletree
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Reparative Bar Association. Founder, actually. He's a professor of law.
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Professor Hansford, what is exactly the Ogletree Reparative Bar Association?
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Tell me what the organization does. What are your goals here?
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Professor Hansford, can you hear me?
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Maybe he's... Yes, can you hear me okay?
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Yes.
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Can you hear me okay?
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Yes. All right, yep.
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Yeah, no, so as the name entails, it's founded in
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admiration of the legacy of Charles Ogletree and from out
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there in California, I think Merced. He was a professor
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at Harvard Law School who really was the leader of
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the first effort to bring a lawsuit for reparations for
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the survivors of the massacre of Black Wall Street and Greenwood.
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And our idea is to create an army of lawyers
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who are going to fight in the reparations battle nationwide
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and to train those lawyers and to help them to
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take on cases locally. I'm a movement lawyer, so I
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believe that lawyers should be working in support of grassroots
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organizers and movements, not trying to take over. And they
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should work closely with local campaigns to help them draft
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legislation or bring lawsuits or to defend them and to
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make sure their reparations commissions are going to be able
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to survive any legal challenge from people who may try
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to take it down using the courts. And, you know,
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to think about how to build a coalition and create
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strategies that bring us together so that our commissions can
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meet and talk to each other and exchange notes, really
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just do everything we can using our skills as members
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of the bar to help make sure this movement is successful.
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And we want to do that nationwide, nationwide and even globally,
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if possible.
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And this is one of the things that you've been
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doing with Evanston, right? As the Evanston reparations is challenged
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and now the Department of Justice jumping in on that.
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That's one of the projects that you've taken on, right?
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Yes, that's right. Actually, I started working with that back
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in 2021 with the Thurgood Marshall Civil Rights Center at
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Howard University. law school, the best HBCU in the country.
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I always say that. And we were there from the
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beginning trying to support it because we understood how important
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that it was for us to make sure that people
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knew that there is a path towards providing reparations that
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is constitutional. And actually, a lot of people don't even
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understand that the way the Supreme Court has turned in
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recent years There are a lot of attacks on diversity
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and inclusion and equity, as you know, and DEI efforts
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have been struck down. But the way it's worked, reparations
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is actually now more likely to be constitutional than diversity
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efforts are, just because the court has gone so far
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as trying to say that diversity is not a justifiable
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rationale for using race. as a factor in these decisions,
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but even Justice Kavanaugh and students for fair admissions, I
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often end up saying students against fair admissions, but students
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for fair admissions, that's a Supreme Court case. Even he
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said that if you were to provide reparations to the
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descendants of those enslaved, that would not be the same
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as a diversity effort because you'd be providing a remedy
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for a specific harm that took place that has been
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acknowledged by the, um, those providing the remedies. So there's
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a lot, there's a really strong legal argument for constitution
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is much stronger than most people realize. And we want
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to make sure people understand that, especially the activists in
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the movement, uh, who can understand that their efforts are
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going to stand up in court. If they're done correctly,
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if you, if you really do the research behind it
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and you, you, have some lawyers helping you to make
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sure that you cross your T's and dot your I's,
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but even just to help the broader nation understand that
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this is something that can happen and that's fully legal.
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When you say if they're done correctly, what are you referencing?
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I mean, what do we need to know that we
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should be doing that we're not doing or keep doing
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that we are doing? Right, right.
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Well, the main thing is to spend time and resources
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wisely documenting the crimes that took place, the racial injustices
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that took place as part of the process. And it's
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important to get the, whether it's the government or the
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business or whatever entity is providing the reparations, it's important
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for them to acknowledge that those harms took place. Because
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I think a lot of people will say, oh, we
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already know what has happened. We don't have to go
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through this process of doing another report or another commission
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or another review. It's just wasting time. But the truth
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is that the strength of that review is exactly the
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thing that will allow your program to be found to
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withstand a constitutional challenge. The more that you document, the
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more defense you have against the lawsuit. Because what's happening,
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especially if it's a commission that's acknowledged by a a,
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you know, a city or a state or a, you know,
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whatever it is, whatever entity is going to be providing
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the repair, they're essentially admitting that these things took place
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for the official record. And then when you get your repair,
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you want to make sure that that repair is, we
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use a legal term, narrowly tailored, but we want the
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repair to be very specifically aligned with the harm that
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took place. So, for example, in Evanston, They found great
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evidence of redlining and government complicity in housing segregation. And
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as a result of that, they provided reparation in the
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form of housing vouchers. So the reparation aligned with the harm.
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So the more harms that you can find and outline
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in a very specific, concrete, tangible way, the more likely
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you are to be able to find reparations. that will
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align with that and not just general reparations that are
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creative and might be impactful but may not be aligned
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specifically to the harm that took place. And that is
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how you create a program that will withstand a legal
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challenge anywhere in the country. So that's something that I
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think too often people don't realize because, yes, we've already
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heard you know, for all of our lives, we've heard
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about the things that have taken place by anecdote or
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even by the work of scholars or others who have,
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you know, we've read about it in the history books,
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but it's important to have the official groups that are
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providing the repair, the government or whatever the case may be.
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It's important for them to do that research and acknowledge
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very specifically that yes, this happened. Yes, we, are going
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to provide repair that will specifically remedy this harm.
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So under that criteria, then, the California Task Force report
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is really important. And even many of these cities and
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counties that are taking up their own reports, important, even
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if they don't immediately result in a change of policy,
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a new law, or some kind of resource payout, cash payout,
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because they create that record, right? 100%.
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And, you know, this is my own perspective. You see
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that there have been legal challenges against some commissions and
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not others. And one of the reasons I think the
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California State Commission has not been challenged legally is because
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there's an 1,100-page report that was done in a very thorough,
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painstaking way before the policies began to be implemented. And
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it's like it's ironclad, you know? And I do think
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that That's something that goes in the face of a
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lot of people. I know you see it as a delay,
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and here they're just taking all this time writing this report,
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but that is actually our greatest defense. And I also
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will say that part of the repair, and I'm sure
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you know this, but part of the repair is getting
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to the truth and getting the truth out there and
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having the public know and having the entities responsible for
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the harm acknowledge that that yes, this is what the
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state did. Yes, this is what the city did. This
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is our complicity. And we acknowledge it, and we eventually
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get to the stage where you apologize for it. That's
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part of the process of reparation that is outlined by
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the UN. Some people may not know that the UN
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has worked with reparations for countries around the world working
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to try to fix their societies. And we know that
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there are limits to the UN's framework, because it is
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a Western framework, but it is a framework that people
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use all around the world. And part of that framework,
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in addition to compensation and restitution, is also the use
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of the term satisfaction, which is also the apology, and
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which is also truth-telling about what actually happens. People deserve
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to know the truth. And then there's also the need
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to change policy to make sure it never happens again.
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so these are these are established practices that will hold
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up under any legal challenge but as long as we
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use our our rigor and our energy to make sure
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that we like i said we cross our t's and
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dot our i's i think i got that right make
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sure that we get we get all the details really
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down and you know down and dirty to get to
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the details so that nobody can say that we did
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a a job that wasn't rigorous.
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Only a minute here before news traffic and sports. We'll
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keep talking on the other side. But a federal judge,
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I think it was yesterday, officially allowed the Department of
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Justice to join that lawsuit against the city of Evanston's
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reparations program. But sounds like you're optimistic that they lose
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in court.
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I am optimistic. One thing that has been one of
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the reasons that the Bar Association was needed and one
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thing that has really pained me is that these lawsuits
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that are going around are filed and people think, oh, well,
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it's over. They've joined the case and now it's a wrap.
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That's actually not true. The Department of Justice has lost
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more cases in recent years under this administration than they
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normally do. And in this situation, if you actually read
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the intervention as I have you'll see that there are
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many reasons to be optimistic that the program will survive.
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And I would say even if this particular situation doesn't
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go exactly the way we want, it's not the case
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that this applies for every single program. Like I said,
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the state of California has this 1,100-page report, and so
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you're going to see a lot of hesitancy to challenge
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this state's program as opposed to.
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Others'. Professor Justin Hansford is my guest. We'll keep it
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going after this, only right here. You are, and I'm
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glad you're here on a Freedman Friday. We're talking reparations,
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and I got a lot of questions for Professor Justin Hansford,
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so I'm going to try to squeeze them all in.
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You referenced Attorney Charles Ogletree, who I had the honor
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of interviewing several times on my old show, The Front Page.
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And he took the legal route to, he really pioneered
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taking the legal route to reparations. It was important, but
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it wasn't fruitful in the sense of winning in court.
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And so it seems like the focus now is on
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the legislative side. And does it seem to you from
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how things are moving so far that that's a more
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successful route?
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That's a great question. So the short answer is I
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do believe that we will have more success with the
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legislative route. I believe there are over 20, maybe more
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than 25 legislative efforts happening right now. Five states, Illinois, California,
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of course, New York, Colorado, also Washington State and Maryland,
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where I live right now. uh, New York state. And I,
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but also I do want the, the, that's the short answer. Yes.
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The longer answer is that it's also true that the lawsuits,
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including those by Charles Ogletree, sometimes impact the legislative process
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and the broader process, even when the lawsuits don't, don't
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win in court. So what two examples would be in Tulsa.
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We know that, uh, Eric Miller, a lawyer who worked
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with Professor Ogletree, is now a law professor at Loyola,
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and Demario Simmons brought a lawsuit in Oklahoma State Court
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arguing that the massacre was a public nuisance. They lost,
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but it impacted the community so much that the mayor
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of Tulsa launched a $ 105 million effort, privately funded effort,
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to provide reparations to And that effort used a lot
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of the evidence and resources that came out during the
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trial as justification for that mayor's effort. And that's one example.
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The other one is Section 14. I know you probably
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are familiar with the work that was done in Palm
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Springs most recently in 2025. I believe there's over $ 5
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million given to those survivors and the descendants of those
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who were impacted by the atrocities that took place there,
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where they burned down a number of houses that were
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owned by black folks. So that is... Those are two
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examples of situations in which the courts, although they didn't
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provide a verdict in support of reparations, that process brought attention,
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it raised evidence, it forced the arguments to the fore
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and it impacted the broader campaign in a way that
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was positive. So I do think that lawyers can help
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even when they don't win the case in the courtroom.
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I mean, so, and one is not separate from the other,
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the way you're laying that out, um, which does seem
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to make a lot of sense when you, you know,
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have a, you have a victory like an Evanston and
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then you have a challenge in court. Um, and we
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keep hearing about the strict scrutiny, this legal lens that, um,
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people feel will derail a lot of the reparations efforts
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because of the so-called racial component, the racial aspect. And even,
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you know, the anti-DEI folks saying that in the case
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of reparations, race, that lineage or harm is being used
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as a proxy for race.
399
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I know that debate is an ongoing debate My perspective
400
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at the moment is that we're not using proxies for race.
401
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We're talking about injuries. We're not saying that we're giving
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out reparations, quote-unquote, based on race. We're giving reparations out
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based on injury. And if it still happens that people
404
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are being injured because of their race, then so be it.
405
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But this is a bit problematic. It's similar to, of course,
406
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out there on the West Coast, you're well aware of
407
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the Japanese internment that took place after World War II
408
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and how reparations were, in fact, given to the descendants
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of those impacted by the Japanese internment. That was, again,
410
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a legislative effort that involved legal cases as well. And
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the law and the politics in the same way moved together. And,
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you know, those descendants, of course, it wasn't without controversy,
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but those descendants of those interned on account of their
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Japanese ethnicity have their reparations. And that was not banned
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by the Constitution. So it's not as simple as that
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in terms of the discussion. It's complex. And, you know,
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I think there'll be some more discussions about it, but
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certainly it's not over. I want people to just take
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these arguments to mean, well, you know, throw up our
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hands and There's nothing we can do because that's absolutely
421
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not the case.
422
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Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's a really good point.
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And I also think it's a great point about the
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Japanese because it was based on harm and all of
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them happened to be Japanese. So was that a proxy
426
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for race? No, it was just that they happened to
427
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be targeting Japanese people with those camps, those concentration camps.
428
00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:40.009
You talked about, you know, getting... the harm down on paper,
429
00:27:40.069 --> 00:27:44.289
getting the admission of harm and the, um, and the
430
00:27:44.329 --> 00:27:47.089
reporting of it, the logging of it. And so under
431
00:27:47.230 --> 00:27:50.470
that lens, it also seems like the truth and disclosure
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00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:54.809
act that recently passed here in California could be, um,
433
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incredibly significant, especially if it if it goes to other states,
434
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but even just in California, the fourth largest economy in
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the world, getting these big companies to tell on themselves
436
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if they profited from chattel slavery.
437
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Incredibly important. I know that there's also an effort similarly
438
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in Chicago a few years back to do the same thing,
439
00:28:19.579 --> 00:28:23.779
city ordinance along these lines, and it wasn't well enforced
440
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to my understanding. And it's important that we make sure
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that This process is enforced. And, you know, I'll even
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go ahead and say that we shouldn't stop at the
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exposure of ties to shadow enslavement. There are a lot
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of things that were happening during the Jim Crow era
445
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that companies profited from that they have not admitted and,
446
00:28:47.089 --> 00:28:49.849
of course, that the government profited from and that it
447
00:28:49.910 --> 00:28:53.440
has not admitted. And that's part of... Not only is
448
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:58.880
that important... like you said, for the country's fourth largest economy.
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It's important in part for the people, for our people,
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for our community, because so many of our folks, we
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00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.569
know that we've been in the struggle, but we don't
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have the specifics. And not everybody has a chance to
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go to the university and, you know, to get access
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to all this information. And we need to have this
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information made much more public, much more accessible, so people
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can understand Not only our people, but also the broader state,
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I think. And I hope I'm not jumping around too much,
458
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but one of the reasons I believe that our DEI
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00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:39.089
policies weren't as durable as they should have been is
460
00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:42.910
that people didn't not have the information to understand why
461
00:29:42.970 --> 00:29:48.059
we had to make things right. People are incredibly undereducated
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00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.599
when it comes to American history, but especially history involving
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00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.180
the wrongs that were done to our people. And this
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is a chance for us to actually have that information
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made much more publicly available and documented and the accuracy
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00:30:03.369 --> 00:30:06.829
of it undisputed. And I think that will be something
467
00:30:06.849 --> 00:30:10.059
that goes a long way towards supporting future policies that
468
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:13.960
come afterwards, the compensation, you know, the changing of other
469
00:30:14.019 --> 00:30:17.640
public policy. That will happen when people understand the why.
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And we have to have this type of history to
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make sure the why is known.
472
00:30:22.490 --> 00:30:27.150
So when you talk about that, I mean, this perception of...
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We shouldn't have to pay for the crimes of the
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father that I don't have any slaves or whatever. It
475
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seemed like it was challenged greatly in that sense by
476
00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:40.769
the California Reparations Task Force, which did such a great
477
00:30:40.829 --> 00:30:43.799
job of saying, well, it's not only enslavement. It is
478
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:48.200
also the subsequent harms, Jim Crow and the badges and
479
00:30:48.220 --> 00:30:52.089
harms that continue and remain today. Why is that important
480
00:30:52.109 --> 00:30:57.190
from a legal standpoint, aside from just an education standpoint
481
00:30:57.230 --> 00:31:00.009
of people need to know, but from a legal standpoint,
482
00:31:00.049 --> 00:31:00.890
why is it important?
483
00:31:03.490 --> 00:31:06.430
Well, a number of reasons. One reason it's important is
484
00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:11.599
that we have to go through with painstaking detail the
485
00:31:12.089 --> 00:31:16.690
in terms of who is responsible, even in the government,
486
00:31:16.710 --> 00:31:20.049
what agencies, what actors. And if you cut it off
487
00:31:20.170 --> 00:31:26.329
in 1865, you're leaving a lot of bad actors in
488
00:31:26.349 --> 00:31:30.710
a place where they're getting off the hook. So you
489
00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:34.009
have your Department of Transportation that signed off on the redlining.
490
00:31:34.029 --> 00:31:38.279
You have the Department of Corrections that were involved in
491
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:41.329
all sorts of atrocities you know, in some of these
492
00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:44.769
state prisons and criminal justice centers, the Department of Education
493
00:31:44.789 --> 00:31:47.349
that signed off on segregation, right? And so all of
494
00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:52.609
these are other instances where the government has liability, where
495
00:31:52.630 --> 00:31:56.680
the government has responsibility. And of course, the other element
496
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.180
of it, of course, it's not something that you can say, oh,
497
00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:01.980
this happened so long ago and, you know, has no
498
00:32:02.019 --> 00:32:05.549
relevance to us now. Many of these things that are
499
00:32:05.769 --> 00:32:09.079
part of Jim Crow and its legacy are continuing, are
500
00:32:09.099 --> 00:32:12.119
continuing until today, especially in the 20th century. You can
501
00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:15.019
see there are many people who are still alive who
502
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:19.180
experience many of these atrocities. So I think that it
503
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:22.460
is incumbent on us to make sure that we don't
504
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:25.660
let this discussion get cabined. It's really two places where
505
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:29.329
they cabin it. Number one, they say it's only for enslavement,
506
00:32:29.349 --> 00:32:32.289
and number two, they say it's only cash. And those
507
00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:37.369
are the two limiting factors, the two efforts to stifle
508
00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:40.210
what the fullness of what reparations could mean in terms
509
00:32:40.289 --> 00:32:43.829
of transformation of our communities, our societies. It's not just cash.
510
00:32:44.289 --> 00:32:47.470
It's not just for slavery. It is much more expansive
511
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.859
in terms of changing policy, changing our society to make
512
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:55.259
sure these things never happen again. And it's much more.
513
00:32:55.619 --> 00:32:58.220
So in terms of the breadth of it, it's much
514
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:02.309
more broad and it goes much more, much more, um,
515
00:33:03.450 --> 00:33:05.450
In terms of time, it goes for a longer period
516
00:33:05.470 --> 00:33:08.180
of time. It's not just for the years up until 1865.
517
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.779
It's all of the years that Jim Crow encompassed because
518
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:15.920
that is the legacy of enslavement. Jim Crow is the
519
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.980
outpouring of enslavement. It builds on the logic of enslavement,
520
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.769
the racial logic of enslavement, and it is part of
521
00:33:21.809 --> 00:33:26.069
that same heritage. So it really cannot be disconnected properly.
522
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:30.970
Professor Justin Hansford is, my guess, he's a professor of law,
523
00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:35.049
founder of the Ogletree Reparative Bar Association, among other things.
524
00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:37.109
I want to talk a little bit more about the
525
00:33:37.390 --> 00:33:41.359
UN and the permanent forum when we come forward. Only
526
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:46.319
on KBLA Talk 1580. Howard University School of Law, professor
527
00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:49.900
and executive director of, or founder, I should say, of
528
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.819
the Ogletree Reparative Bar. Bar Association, and you may have
529
00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:58.000
seen him in the documentary, The Cost of Inheritance, which
530
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:02.960
was aired on PBS in 2024. A couple things I
531
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.829
want to squeeze in here before we are out of time.
532
00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:12.690
You had helped to create something called the Reparations Movement
533
00:34:12.789 --> 00:34:17.010
and Moving Reparations here in the United States as well
534
00:34:17.070 --> 00:34:17.789
as worldwide.
535
00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:21.119
Right. I mean, that's We could have a whole other
536
00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:21.699
show on that one.
537
00:34:21.739 --> 00:34:22.489
We sure could.
538
00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:28.030
I would love to. You know, we have seen in
539
00:34:28.070 --> 00:34:32.969
the last really two or three years huge strides really
540
00:34:33.010 --> 00:34:36.920
with the help of the African Union. In 2025, they
541
00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:41.239
had a year for reparations. The African Union is a
542
00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:46.119
conglomeration of over 50 countries in Africa. And now they've
543
00:34:46.539 --> 00:34:47.880
gone on and said this is going to be the
544
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:53.030
decade for reparations. And there are going to be many countries,
545
00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:56.150
Ghana most prominently is sort of taking the lead. They're
546
00:34:56.170 --> 00:34:58.510
the ones who introduced that resolution I was talking about
547
00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:03.989
on March 25th. And they're interacting with European countries to
548
00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:06.659
try to explore what they could do in terms of
549
00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:11.559
reparations for colonialism. And the Caribbean CARICOM is an organization
550
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.420
of Caribbean states, over 30 states in the Caribbean. They're
551
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.519
reaching out to Europe for reparations. You just talked about
552
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:22.920
Jamaica sending its petition to the UK. Haiti has been
553
00:35:23.780 --> 00:35:28.619
making a request to France. And so there's a lot
554
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.519
happening on that global stage. Now, for us in the U.S.,
555
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.760
it's more complex because we don't really have a country
556
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:40.610
that will speak on our behalf to, say, the British
557
00:35:41.289 --> 00:35:46.429
or the Spanish who were involved in the quote unquote
558
00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:49.889
trade is the theft of our people from the continent.
559
00:35:49.929 --> 00:35:51.929
They're not going to speak on our behalf on a
560
00:35:51.969 --> 00:35:55.900
national level. Ours, our work is more internal. Of course,
561
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:59.780
we really deserve repair from both, right? We deserve repair
562
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:03.059
from the U S and we deserve repair from the
563
00:36:03.179 --> 00:36:06.440
UK because they both were involved in the process. But
564
00:36:06.460 --> 00:36:09.489
you know, our work is more so as opposed to
565
00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:12.989
being country to country or government to government. It's our
566
00:36:13.090 --> 00:36:17.050
citizens and our people who, versus our own government in
567
00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:19.929
that discourse. But we do have a lot of ways
568
00:36:19.989 --> 00:36:24.909
that the UN can provide information like the structures of
569
00:36:24.969 --> 00:36:27.070
what it could look like. It can provide credibility. It
570
00:36:27.090 --> 00:36:32.289
can provide platforms, research. We're constantly looking for other ways
571
00:36:32.949 --> 00:36:36.320
to help that internal conversation happening in the U.S. because
572
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:39.199
it's also happening in Brazil because Brazil is a country
573
00:36:39.219 --> 00:36:45.340
that's 50% Black. Afro-Brazilians want reparations not just from the Portuguese,
574
00:36:45.739 --> 00:36:49.579
but also from the Brazilian government and black folks in,
575
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:55.050
you know, also in Spanish speaking countries like Mexico. And
576
00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:56.429
so there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's
577
00:36:56.570 --> 00:36:59.190
so much happening. We're opening up a whole new world.
578
00:36:59.230 --> 00:37:02.110
That's why I'm saying that this reparations bar association is
579
00:37:02.150 --> 00:37:04.670
so needed because I believe that we're going to create
580
00:37:04.730 --> 00:37:06.780
a new, there's going to be so much work. We're
581
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:10.280
creating like a new line of law practice and a
582
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:15.409
new area of, someone's career. Somebody can spend their entire
583
00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:19.510
career working on reparations in as many different varied stages,
584
00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:23.250
thinking about the tax implications, thinking about policy drafting, thinking
585
00:37:23.289 --> 00:37:27.539
about lawsuits. You could have a whole career path just
586
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:30.099
as a reparations lawyer, and you would never run out
587
00:37:30.139 --> 00:37:32.880
of work. It would be a global practice, which would
588
00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:34.280
make it even more useful.
589
00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:36.539
And on top of that, you helped to create the
590
00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:39.550
African American Redress Network, which is the research piece?
591
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:45.380
That's right. Yeah, that is something where Howard University students
592
00:37:45.460 --> 00:37:49.559
that I have mentored have been working with Columbia University
593
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:54.519
students out of New York. And that research piece allows
594
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:58.050
for folks to get support in terms of the history
595
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:00.550
portion that I was talking about. If the government is
596
00:38:00.610 --> 00:38:05.510
not willing to support a process of doing the historical
597
00:38:05.590 --> 00:38:08.690
research and the documentary research to understand what truly happened,
598
00:38:09.449 --> 00:38:13.050
You can get our own university researchers to help to
599
00:38:13.309 --> 00:38:16.630
create our own historical reports and then submit them to
600
00:38:16.670 --> 00:38:19.699
the government so that they can then acknowledge the accuracy
601
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.760
of it. So we don't have to just wait on
602
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.199
the political will. We found a lot of these reparations
603
00:38:24.340 --> 00:38:29.679
commissions and efforts that happened on these municipal levels sounded
604
00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:33.019
great when they were announced, but then they were underfunded
605
00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:39.329
or they were slow walks and they needed support. And
606
00:38:39.409 --> 00:38:42.550
so that's why we say, well, we have these researchers
607
00:38:43.309 --> 00:38:46.550
from Howard University and also I partnered with Columbia University,
608
00:38:47.030 --> 00:38:49.610
and they're eager to do this work. And they can
609
00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:51.050
do the work in such a way that we can
610
00:38:51.070 --> 00:38:54.289
then submit it to these commissions and they can sign
611
00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:57.920
off and just acknowledge the accuracy of it. And then
612
00:38:57.940 --> 00:39:00.780
we can start to move these processes forward. So, yeah,
613
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:02.280
there are a lot of different ways that we can
614
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:08.769
support the movement, research, lawsuits, international approaches. Whatever we can do,
615
00:39:08.809 --> 00:39:09.769
we're trying to find a way.
616
00:39:10.869 --> 00:39:13.449
And Professor Justin Hansford, tell us how to follow you.
617
00:39:13.769 --> 00:39:16.340
Are you on social media? I know you have another
618
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:19.480
edition of your book coming out. Talk to us about
619
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:20.420
how to follow that work.
620
00:39:22.099 --> 00:39:26.010
Oh, yeah. I don't do much social media. I'm on LinkedIn.
621
00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:28.050
You can just look up Justin Hansford there.
622
00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:28.190
Okay.
623
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:34.260
Try to stay off social media. But if you want
624
00:39:34.300 --> 00:39:37.579
to follow the work, it's probably better to follow these
625
00:39:37.659 --> 00:39:40.980
organizations like the African American Redress Network, which has an
626
00:39:41.739 --> 00:39:45.199
Instagram page, and the Thurgood Marshall Civil Rights Center at
627
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:51.420
Howard University. He's got a Twitter page. Um, and just
628
00:39:51.699 --> 00:39:54.880
stay looped into the work of the Ogletree Bar Association
629
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.199
because we were just brand new. We don't even have
630
00:39:57.219 --> 00:39:58.900
a website yet, but it's going to be up and
631
00:39:58.940 --> 00:40:02.739
launching early next year. And, um, thank you for, thank
632
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:04.280
you for the conversation. I think that we have a,
633
00:40:04.389 --> 00:40:05.710
I think it's gonna be an exciting year because I
634
00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:08.130
actually think that, uh, this is going to be a
635
00:40:08.170 --> 00:40:12.429
hot topic in 2027. Um, I'm seeing that this is
636
00:40:12.489 --> 00:40:15.230
something that you may have heard. President Trump tries to
637
00:40:15.710 --> 00:40:20.699
talk about reparations in September and, You know, the Department
638
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:22.760
of Justice has this lawsuit, so they're going to try
639
00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:25.780
to make it some type of topic that they're going
640
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.340
to use to rile up their base. But I have
641
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.679
a feeling it's going to backfire because we're entering a
642
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:33.780
phase where we have a lot of things to repair
643
00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:36.000
in this country. We have a lot of things to
644
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:40.019
make right. A lot of reparation-type work is going to
645
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:42.539
happen in 2028 because a lot of things were broken.
646
00:40:42.980 --> 00:40:46.179
And we're going to have to start here with repairing
647
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:50.880
the breach. that involve our people because it's the fundamental
648
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:52.280
breach in American society.
649
00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:56.269
Well, we love that. Professor Justin Hansford, thank you so
650
00:40:56.289 --> 00:40:57.730
much for being with us this morning.
651
00:40:57.750 --> 00:40:59.829
All right. Thanks for having me.