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Transformational shift in terms of what was possible, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019.
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And and then that would ultimately end up in a sort of software-driven world.
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Welcome to Partner Path, a podcast that unpacks the venture capital and growth equity ecosystem from a junior perspective.
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Young entrepreneurs and investors have already had a massive impact on the industry, having started unicorns and launched billion-dollar funds.
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We discuss these success stories and more by sharing perspectives and advice from some of the industry's most prominent role models.
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This podcast expresses our views as of the date published and does not represent the views of and is not endorsed by any company for which we work.
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Before we get to the episode, Laura and I are excited to announce a partnership with Overlap.
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Today we are chatting with Everett Cook, co-founder and CEO at Roe.
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Prior to Roe, Everett spent a decade as a portfolio manager at multiple macro hedge funds.
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Then in 2018, Everett launched Roe, a financial operating platform for fast growing businesses.
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Welcome, Everett.
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Thanks for having me.
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Thanks for being here.
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So before starting Roe, you had a very successful Wall Street career as a macro investor at various hedge funds, as we mentioned.
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To start, we thought it would be interesting maybe to touch on how macro investing at big hedge funds work, just at a high level, and kind of what your role as a junior and then senior PM consisted of.
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Yeah.
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So I spent about 10 years in finance, spending most of that in global macro investing as an analyst, senior analyst, and then briefly as a PM.
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I was never like a huge portfolio manager, but spent a very long time working with some of the best people in that industry.
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And I got drawn to it first of all because I started in finance, in leverage finance out of college.
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And this was during the great financial crisis.
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And it was interesting to me to watch a lot of really smart people lose a lot of money really quickly.
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And for something that seemed pretty understandable and predictable.
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And I sort of zoomed out and I was like, who are the people that actually saw this coming, understood it, you know, made money from it?
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And there was this whole category of investors called global macro investors that really understood macroeconomic trends and how they impacted the broader economy.
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And, you know, nine out of ten of them had their best year ever, you know, those years because they understood what was coming.
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Whereas I think a lot of the other people that were, you know, more myopic sort of missed it.
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So I really wanted to go into that world.
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I, you know, I finished my analyst and worked for a very small one fund and then worked for what's now known as 0.72 at the time was SAC.
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And then worked for a billion dollar fund, a$2 billion fund, and then as a PM at a larger platform.
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I got to work with a number of really great traders, some of the best people in the world in the space.
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And what was really interesting about it was first of all, like traders are weird.
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They're like founders, right?
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Like it's like it's not one thing.
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They're all different.
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You know, one guy may be, you know, phenomenal at risk, one by guy may be an amazing analyst.
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Obviously, like the best people are, you know, understand every every part of it.
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But like building companies, it's it's always changing.
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The landscape's always changing.
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You know, the person that wins is the person that's adapting fastest to whatever is the change in the world that's happening.
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But for me, what was really similar and where I felt like I could make the transition was because it was really about understanding what in the world is changing and really having a broader picture and being able to zoom out better than other people.
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In global macro, probably more so than any other investment style, there is no real informational advantage.
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We're all playing from the same cards for the most part.
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You know, there is no like, oh, I got this call from the Fed and they told me what they're gonna do.
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Like that there are people like there are rumors of that.
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That doesn't happen.
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And even if it did, it wouldn't really help you that much.
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You know, so it's really about like seeing the bigger picture more clearly than everybody else, right?
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Seeing the picture, the pieces come together and understanding where the market has biases and where the market is ultimately like crowding and hurting.
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And, you know, how do you understand something that that nine out of 10 people don't?
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And that's very similar to starting a company, right?
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You know, especially when you're starting out, there aren't necessarily really big secrets, but understanding technology trends and okay, this is changing, right?
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There's here's a foundational technology that's changing.
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And what does that power?
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And you know, the obvious answer is not usually not the right one, but it's like, how do you understand that second order?
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And then how do you move really fast to execute?
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And so there's actually a pretty long history of founders that have similar backgrounds to me that made that transition because the while the the hard skills are not the same, the sort of the soft skills are, you know, that the critical thinking, the sort of understanding investment markets and and how broader shifts impact, you know, sort of micro.
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And we're definitely gonna dive deeper into fintech and how we went from macro to starting row.
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But can you just touch on your experience working with Mike Bloomberg?
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That's very fascinating.
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And we'd love to hear how that inspired some of your interest in entrepreneurship.
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Yeah, it was it was an amazing opportunity.
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I was really lucky to have really at a really early age.
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And that's probably what inspired me really to be an entrepreneur.
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At a really young age, I really wanted to work.
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I loved, you know, I loved business.
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And I just, I, you know, I didn't want to go play with my friends in the summer.
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I wanted to get a job.
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And I was able to sort of talk myself into a, you know, really like really sort of very like very like low, you know, low risk job from their perspective at at Bloomberg at the time.
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I was the youngest, youngest employee there, probably still uh probably hold that record for a summer.
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And anyway, I went in, they kind of put me in the corner.
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They were like, here, just watch a bunch of videos and I catalog them.
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I came back two weeks later.
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I was like, I built a database for you guys, like to manage all this stuff.
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Like, okay, you're kind of useful.
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And so anyway, I stuck around for a long time through the campaign, through and then for the first six months in City Hall.
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But for me, it was amazing just as an opportunity to really see, you know, one of the best founders, entrepreneurs of all time, right?
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And get a front of receipt into someone operating that caliber, you know, which is again, like I think one Mike is one of the greatest founders of all time.
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I know people don't think about him in the same sort of, you know, like tech world, you know, versus like Zuckerberg or jobs, but he is like, right?
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He's he is absolutely up there and has built a company that is like that size.
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Yeah.
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For me, it was really fascinating because number one, you appreciate like the humanity of someone like that.
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Like he's not a he's not a superhuman.
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He's a he's a he's a person, right?
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He puts on his shoes.
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Yeah, you know, and he's very down to earth.
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And you know, he built an incredible company.
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And he did it by understanding that there was a technological shift happening, right?
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Understanding that that finance was going to move towards towards computers, toward digital.
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He had an advantage in terms of having you know a better understanding of that from his prior role at Solomon Brothers.
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And then he built a phenomenal culture around it once he sort of had that MVP product in the market and never stopped and never took money from VC either, which is uh which we'll get into as well.
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Yeah.
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For me, that was amazing just just to be able to see, like, just to be able to be, you know, 10 feet away and see what's happening there.
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Because at a really young age, I was like, well, I want to do that.
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I I have no, you know, belief that I I can approach anything close to what he's accomplished.
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But it's amazing that a human being can even do that.
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And that's that was always what I wanted to do.
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Yeah.
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That's amazing.
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So you leave the PM role 2017, 2018, to start a company.
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And one of the first things that you have to do, which Will did for us, was set up a bank account when you ran into a problem.
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What did you want to start initially?
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And then what happened when you were like, oh crap, this is harder than what I thought.
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Yeah.
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So that's right.
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I left the fund I was at.
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You know, I talked about market changes.
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There were a couple of interesting market changes that I thought were happening that I wanted to take advantage of and build a company around.
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So first I didn't leave with like a divine inspiration.
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And I think that there's this myth that, you know, if you're and I I don't you guys talk to more founders than I do probably, but I think there's the this, there's this myth that like you're gonna have this perfect idea when you leave your company and you know, you're gonna go start your company, you know, you're gonna resign one day and start the company the next day, and everything's gonna be laid out.
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Maybe that happens for some people.
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Definitely didn't happen for me.
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And my my perspective was look, if I'm gonna spend the next 10, maybe longer years building a company, I want to make sure that it's something that I believe in, that I care about, and that I have really put in work into the why before I, you know, say, yeah, I'm let's let's go down this journey.
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So I left, I spent about three months trying to figure out what was what was interesting and what did I want to do.
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And I thought the the initial idea that I had was, well, Instagram is is growing really fast and it's gonna redefine the way that consumer products are sold and and made and delivered.
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And this was the very beginning of sort of the direct to consumer boom, which ended up in a sort of a bust after that.
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But so it was probably a good a good miss.
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But step one, performed LLC.
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I was like, I'm gonna do some business projects, and then step two, open a bank account.
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And I got to step two and I kind of got stuck.
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It's wasted a day and a half trying to open a bank account.
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I was like, why is this this hard?
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I was an early adopter of fintech solutions, like simple and some of the wealth management sort of fintechs, and had friends that are, you know, were early employees at SoFi and some of the early fintechs at that time, and kind of stuck in my head.
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And then I kept going.
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I was like, okay, well, I did get it open.
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It wasn't, you know, it wasn't it didn't totally block me, it was just a waste of a day.
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But yeah, um, but it didn't even need to be need to be like that.
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Tried to work on a couple of D2C projects, realized that that wasn't necessarily my strength.
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And then I kept getting asked by other founders like about fintech.
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And like everyone'd you use, what'd you do?
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Yeah, and just like everyone was fascinated with fintech.
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All these people that had done other things like ad tech and stuff like that, they were like, you know, they were like, they were like, oh, this is this thing, and I don't know anything about finance.
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I was like, well, I actually know something about that.
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So maybe this is like the universe pulling me in this direction.
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And we sat down, had a brainstorming session, and I talked to a number of founders, entrepreneurs, and like what's broken, and they were like, Man, like business banking is just terrible.
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Like, and I was like, Oh yeah, like I had that experience, you know, a month ago.
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Like it was, it was really tough.
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Why is this so bad?
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And why is like every other piece of software, every other piece of technology that I touch, you know, feel new.
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And then this feel like I'm going back in time, like 10 years longer, right?
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Yeah.
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So that was sort of the inspiration.
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We started building there with the simple view of like what makes just the best bank account in the world.
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And then we built that, or what we believed that was the case.
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But what we really realized was the best bank account in the world isn't a bank account.
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It's really a system.
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And it's a system for you know, operating and organizing your finances as a company.
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And so all those things that people were doing outside the bank account, like bill pay, like expense management, like corporate cards, those needed to come in.
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And it needed to be one platform that you could use and that you wouldn't have to touch anything else as a finance person, as a founder, as an accountant.
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And that's really what we what it's the inspiration for Roe.
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There's a big vision.
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And some people were like, you know, you're crazy, like this is a good idea, but you're never gonna get that far.
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But you know, here we are seven years later, continuing to hack away at it.
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Yeah, that's very fascinating.
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And you you touched on how you built out the product and the natural extensions of the bank platform.
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Obviously, as a seed series A now, you know, series B post Series B business resources are scarce, right?
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You only have so much capital, you have to make your capital go as far as it can.
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How do you go about deciding what is the next project or the next piece of the product that you should work on?
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How do you how does that prioritization process work?
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I mean, look, I think that's true at any stage, no matter how many people or resources you have, you're always systematically constrained because companies can only do a couple of things really well, you know, even if you're Microsoft, right?
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For us, we have a phenomenal product management team that spends all day kind of thinking about those problems.
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Earlier on, when we didn't have that, it was really about just talking to customers.
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And actually, really early on when we first started, we knew that there was a huge spectrum of things that we did not have.
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And we were like, what do we do first?
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And we would actually go out and pitch customers on our product, pitch customers that were larger than our ICP because we wanted to go out and market.
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And we just had a spreadsheet and we were like, why'd they say no?
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And we would just mark it down.
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And whichever kind of had the highest score and the lowest you know difficulty rating, we would just do first.
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And then we kept working on that list over time again, eventually kind of became product management, became more professional.
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But but it was it was really that simple.
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It's just talking to our users day in day out.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Very customer.
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Why didn't you start with the initial wedge of row?
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The initial wedge of row, which is better business banking, and it was opening a business bank account online, you know, for startups.
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And it was interesting because when we started, it was 20 2019.
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It was October 2019, it was when we launched the product.
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And you know, we would market it and we would talk to customers.
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We did a lot of community stuff, we did a lot of meetups in New York.
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And, you know, about half the time we hear, well, like there's a Chase branch like by my, you know, right down the street from me.
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And I was like, okay, but you don't want to spend your day there, like, you know, like do this online.
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This is 20 2019.
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You know, we're pretty far along at this point.
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And then three months later, right, COVID happens and you know, everything's shut.
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And you know, all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can do this all online now.
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I don't I don't have to.
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Like you, you know, you don't have a choice.
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We're the only game of time.
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So you know, we went like this, it was really exciting.
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But then even after that, right, like we never got that question again.
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It was never like, oh, I want to go to branch.
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Everyone realized they didn't have to do that.
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The behavior changed, COVID had fundamentally changed, shifted people's perception of what you had to do, you know, physically, and the world was never gonna go back.
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But that was, you know, initially that was very hard for people to do outside of you know us and a few other people early that were early.
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Yeah, I think that brings up an interesting point that I'd love to touch on, which is just trying to understand why is this an area that's better suited for a technology company as opposed to a larger financial institution like a Chase, which is obviously part of JP Morgan, as are other retail brick and mortar banks, right?
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Why should this be a tech solution?
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First of all, it's not purely a tech solution, right?
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We we partner with banks to deliver products and services, and uh among them business banking.
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So today we partner with Webster Bank, which is a$70 billion bank based in Connecticut, and they do what they're excellent at, which is risk management, balance sheet management, et cetera.
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And then we deliver technology that the customer you know touches and feels.
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Banks are not technology companies, and technology companies are not banks.
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And I think that's that's really important.
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I think most banks would agree with that too.
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They're not their expertise is not building great products.
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Building a product organization, building great software is really hard, right?
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You guys see it every day in your portfolio and companies that you meet, founders that you meet.
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You know, it's it's it's a organizational skill that is very different than what exists at banks, even the largest banks.
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And just because they have thousands and thousands of uh engineers doesn't mean they can build better products.
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:13.039
And that's like it's like it's a pure, you know, sort of innovator's dilemma type type thing, right?
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.200
Like it's the same with same with startups, right?
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:21.519
Just because you know, Microsoft, Google have lots of engineers doesn't mean that they can build everything or build it better unnecessarily.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.799
So I think it's it's really about that, about like just deeply understanding your user, you know, maybe picking one of them, right?
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:32.480
We don't do consumer banking, we don't do, you know, like mortgages, all these other things that a bank kind of has to do.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:32.799
Yeah.
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.039
We really focus on one lane, and then we are building software because we believe that software is really what adds value to customer experience.
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:44.960
And then the bank really like owns the the back end of ultimately the payments, the money storage, stuff like that.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.679
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Now back to the episode.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.039
Obviously, there are other tech solutions that are taking on the consumer banking side, right?
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.120
Like a Chime or other various new banks.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.720
So I think that begs the question.
00:15:44.960 --> 00:16:01.039
Looking forward, what do you think the outlook is for big banks like a JP Morgan Chase or a Bank of America, where obviously you guys are taking business from them or some type of value that would otherwise accrue to them on the commercial banking side, they're getting attacked on the consumer banking side.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.519
It almost seems like some of these big financial institutions are dying and death by a thousand cuts.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.279
What will they continue to excel in?
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:13.759
You mentioned risk management among a couple of other things, but what's your perspective on the long-term outlook for a lot of these big players?
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.519
Yeah, I think that they're there are a couple things.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:16.399
I don't think they're going anywhere.
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.320
Soon, you know, I think that they will continue, they will start to partner more frequently with fintech companies.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.399
Some may buy some, but they will, I think there'll be more of a, you know, more of a partnership.
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.519
I think fintech and banks went through a couple of phases over the past, you know, decade or so, right?
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.360
First, you know, the the banks were like, well, this is this is too small to matter.
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:34.240
Like nobody cares.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.639
And then fintech valuations, you know, during the bubble were like, you know, just insane.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.000
And it was sort of the other way.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.919
And now I think it's more like, let's meet in the middle and let's figure out how to build a better solution for our customers.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.000
The banks recognize that they're not software companies.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:58.559
The fintechs recognize that they need to work with good banks and really good banks, not just like these little regional banks that I think people had had worked with, sorry, not regional, but community banks that some of the fintech companies have built on top of.
00:16:58.639 --> 00:16:58.720
Yeah.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:07.759
And it's like, look, if you're gonna build a premium grade product, you need to work with a premium grade bank that actually is well regulated, understands this product, understands this space, like our partner today.
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.640
And so I think that it's a it's a positive relationship over time.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.240
I think that there are areas that will move more towards fintech.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.759
I don't think that fintech will ever be big balance sheet lending.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.920
There's no competitive advantages of fintech to do that.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.200
I don't think that fintechs, you know, on the consumer side, I think there are segments.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.880
I think that the prime segments, I think it will still be hard for fintech to crack.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:28.000
I haven't seen that happen yet.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:37.920
Maybe they will, but I think segments where the banks struggle to serve and struggle to do really well, those will ultimately be, you know, fintechs will be doing them, and then fintechs will be hopefully doing them in partnership with great banks.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.799
And I think over time that's that's ultimately how how it progresses.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.240
I do think that there'll be a hollowing out of like the mid-tier banks.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.920
You know, it it they'll either be excellent at lending and be earning their name that way and really not making much on the other side, or they they won't necessarily be there.
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.720
Banks end up sort of you know looking like credit credit hedge funds in a lot of ways, right?
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:04.079
They're putting credit out there, they're borrowing, you know, but but they don't necessarily have a thriving retail business outside the sort of the top top couple.
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:09.119
Do you think there's room for any brick and mortar presence in the banking future in five or 10 years?
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.279
Yeah, you know, I I do actually.
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.119
I think that it's it's really interesting.
00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:19.039
I mean, you you see some banks that are pulling back from it, you know, and and just not investing.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:26.559
Other banks like PNC, who I actually have a ton of respect for, I think it's an exceptionally well-managed bank, are investing$1.5 billion in in brick and mortar.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.640
There's definitely like return on that investment.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.400
There's customers that that care about that.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:39.039
There are also just customers that care about like like workflow software and you know, process optimization and stuff like that, and and accounting integrations and doing all those things really well.
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.119
So I think that there's room for both, just like you know, direct to consumer, right?
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.519
Seven years ago, people were like, oh, like retail is gonna be dead.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.480
Like it's just gonna disappear.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.119
Like, no, you know, you're gonna walk down Madison Avenue and it's gonna be empty.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.400
Yeah, it didn't happen, right?
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:51.920
Like, yeah, but it evolved.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:06.240
You know, there's some stuff that you buy online, there's some stuff that you buy in stores, and there's the the use of stores today is probably different than it was 10 years ago because it's more about a you know showcasing the brand as opposed to necessarily, hey, like walking into the store to buy, you know, a stapler or something like that that you buy on Amazon, right?
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.400
So I think that's true in this space as well.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.720
Do you think that any of the digitally native banks will ever get into brick and mortar presents?
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.039
Will we be able to walk into a row back to the I don't know?
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:23.599
It's probably not like a you know a venture, venture scale sort of like return on investment, maybe one for for marketing purposes, but probably not in the near term.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:24.319
Yeah, got it.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:33.039
I guess then when you think about we've touched on the big bank side of the market and where they play in, I guess, row generally speaking, but what about it's become a highly competitive space?
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.759
And I think it's a big market, so there probably can be a few winners.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.839
But how do you think about differentiating from some of the other players, like Rex and Ramp?
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.680
And I also know that their initial wedge was like a little bit different than Rose.
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.319
Yeah, I mean, look, we all started around the same time.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.640
I think we all understood that there was a transformational shift in terms of what was possible, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019.
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.000
And then that would ultimately end up in a sort of software-driven world.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.759
I have a lot of respect for all those companies.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.519
I think they some of them have led the way, some of them are, you know, have were later.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.960
But for us, we think about it as like, look, number one, yes, it's a really big space.
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.640
And you know, it's if you actually count it, it's probably the biggest tan across the board.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.119
Number two, we think about it around our customers.
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.480
We're just like we talk to our customers, we're customer obsessed, we're not competitor obsessed.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.519
For us, it's really understanding where there are problems that we can solve and and solutions that we can deliver.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.599
And yeah, like for them, I think we have a couple things that are different philosophically.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.920
We started with business banking, both of them started as cards.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:27.359
Brex now does business banking.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.680
I wouldn't be surprised if if other people start doing that.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:36.400
In addition, for us, we we really believe that customer service is an integral part of customer experience.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.720
And it's not something that that should be sort of an afterthought.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.960
That's probably the one of the biggest differences that that we see.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.839
You know, we believe in having the best product, having the best pricing, and also delivering it with the world's best customer service.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.079
And that's something that probably, you know, other other folks have a different philosophy on than we do.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:59.759
How can you differentiate from like a customer service standpoint and how do you know when you're spending too much versus not enough time with a customer, especially as you've been around for a while, but still a lean team?
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.240
Yeah.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.640
You never want customer service to be your requirement.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.759
You never want people to have to reach out to do something or have to, you know, non-bl have you always want the product to solve the problem.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:15.039
That said, when you are dealing with people's money, there is a heightened sense of sensitivity and there's a desire to talk to someone fairly frequently.
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:21.839
And so we think about it as like from a, you know, we have a multi-tiered model in terms of how we structure those teams and how we deliver that service.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:29.519
We don't use BPOs, we don't outsource it, but it is cost effective because uh we're, you know, the product is generally able to solve all the problems.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:35.119
But sometimes our team is able is there to help them understand sort of where, you know, how to how to use it themselves.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.599
And then they have to go back to our designers and be like, hey, like, you know, we have this, but it wasn't intuitive enough.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.799
How do we make that more intuitive that we have less of those tickets?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.039
Um so those things also like just support each other, right?
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.200
Customer service is is part of our product org and it and it supports our product.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:50.720
You know, their goal is to make that go down.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.920
But why don't you hope that nobody needs it, but you want to make sure that when someone interacts with your organization, like it's it's an A plus every time.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And so that that's how we think about it.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.480
Yeah, it sounds like some of the AI customer service companies might not be the best fit for fintech.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:05.839
I don't you know, I don't know.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.039
Like we're we'll see.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.039
I think we're I'm optimistic on that side.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.440
I think that it'll be uh it'll be an evolution.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:18.079
You know, the more of the low-level stuff that can be automated gives your team more time and bandwidth to to solve sort of more complicated problems.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:23.119
But yeah, I think overall, like there's there is still a a premium put on being able to interact with a human on the other side.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:33.599
Do you have a view on I know this is a slight tangent, but there's been a lot of venture money going into folks like Sierra and Decagon and their customer support, customer service agents.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.519
If you think back five, 10 years, there was a lot of capital invested in customer service AI.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:39.759
Right.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.160
Right?
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.000
Which which there's a lot of products out there, intercom, a core AI.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.200
There are a lot of folks that already provide quote unquote customer service AI.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:57.200
Do you have a view on whether investment in this new agenc world in that product use case will kind of come to fruition or I'm really excited about it?
00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.240
Yeah, we've explored all of them.
00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.599
We're really excited about that space.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.240
I think that again, it allows our team to ultimately like up-level what they're doing.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.559
Yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.839
So I'm I'm hopeful.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:13.359
I mean, the foundational models are evolving so quickly that I think that it's natural that you'll see more agentic solutions in the future.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.319
But again, we think about it as like, look, where's the market today?
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.000
Where's it going to be in a year or two years?
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.880
How do we position there, you know, as we continue to kind of move forward?
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:22.319
We'll think longer term as well.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.880
Right now, no, it's not, it's not quite there.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.000
Like I think you can tell, right?
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.319
Like the turning, it generally fails the turning test.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.279
But but we're getting closer.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:38.319
So maybe it would be good to touch on the interest rate cycle and how you've seen that effect row from what you've got a market standpoint and just value proposition for your existing customers.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:38.799
Yeah.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.480
So we're we're influenced by that.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:46.400
And I think that the way that we've thought about it is you know, we we have a cash management business and a spend management business.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.920
Cash management is business banking, spend management is corporate cards.
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.039
For us, when when rates go up, generally speaking, the cash management side does better.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.920
And also we're able to deliver more value back to customers in terms of by giving them treasury solutions.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.960
So founders that are sitting on millions of dollars of cash, you know, can earn four or five percent.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.119
Yeah.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:05.839
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.680
So that becomes really attractive to people who, you know, where that money may have been sitting somewhere else, not doing anything.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.359
But our margin on our cards goes down a bit because we have to borrow for that.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.759
And then on the other side, when rates go down, vice versa.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.240
We try to build a sort of a more somewhat balanced business.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.240
It may shift sort of one way or the other a little bit.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:31.759
But ultimately we believe like both of those things are important, both for the end user as well as for the business model to make sure that we're not super you know impacted by interest rates, regardless which direction they're moving.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:32.480
Right, right.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:38.240
Which I'm sure your experience as a macro investor helps you position a little bit, you know, sooner maybe thanks to the.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.279
Yeah, I mean, I I I'm more trying to like not take risk.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.319
Like I'm I, you know, my perspective is like I I did that before, you know, I'm sort of done, I retired from that world.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:56.000
So my goal is always obsessing about like how do we, you know, how do we avoid taking a view on that stuff, or how do we avoid taking risk on things that are, you know, are macro and focus on just like building a business.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:57.680
But you actually have to think about it if you're gonna avoid it.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.720
Otherwise, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be kind of you know whipsawed by it.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.359
Right, right.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:08.720
And I I know, Everett, you've done a couple other podcasts where you've touched on high-level your ICP and and the type of customer that you target.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:14.160
It's typically right when you're starting to think about bringing on a CFO or fractional CFO, right?
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.319
Going from one person business to a couple of people is an interesting inflection point.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.960
But I think it'd be helpful to chat through your ICP and how you decided to target that ICP.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:28.400
Obviously, you're focused on fast-growing small, medium-sized businesses across various verticals.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:33.759
Maybe you should start with why focus on smaller businesses with high growth and what was the thought process there?
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.119
So you know, today Roe spans a pretty wide spectrum.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.319
So we we work with companies that are literally just getting started day zero to you know, 10,000 plus person companies with you know hundreds of locations across the country and everything in between.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:54.960
But for us, we think like the companies that get the most value out of row are those ones that are that are just starting to hit some inflection.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:11.359
And really because we're able to give them sort of a full you know financial operating system that they can take out of the box and have day one and ultimately solve those problems that that they're experiencing around spend management, around you know, managing their capital, around you know, closing their books faster.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.519
Um, so ultimately that's where we see that need the most, the most acute.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.559
But really, like we love starting with companies like when they just get started too.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.559
And you know, the platform is can be self-service and they they can sign up and just go all the way through.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.640
And ultimately, and that way when they do hit that inflection point, they're they're ready.
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.599
Is it difficult to build for a self-service customer as well as an enterprise customer?
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:32.559
Yeah, it is.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.759
It's like a it's a particularly unique challenge that our product managers have to kind of figure out every day.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.119
There is definitely like an overlap.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.119
If you think of it, there's like a Venn diagram, right?
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:42.960
And it's like, what does that enterprise customer want?
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:44.960
What does that smaller SMB want?
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.039
And how do we make sure that the product works together?
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:54.640
We try to frame it as like at Row, and this is part of our mission statement internally, is that we're trying to build the simplest and most powerful product in our category.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.519
And simple meaning like you can use it out of the box.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:05.119
If if you were to start a company tomorrow, like sign up for row, you know, easier than than Chase or then you know some of the other FinTech companies.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.960
But if you're scaling, you know, it's not gonna break.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.400
You're not gonna have scaling problems.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:12.720
And ultimately you're gonna be able to have your permissions that are as granular as you want, right?
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:23.599
So, you know, if you're big companies that they get very granular in terms of like whose labs do what, how do we like do permissions, you know, if you're allowed to spend, who has to approve it, who has to approve that, you know, several chains down, et cetera.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.319
So, yes, making all that work together in sort of a single user experience that's cohesive is a is a challenge, but that's why we hire really smart people.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.000
But ultimately, you really believe that simplicity is universal.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.480
Everybody wants a simple product, they just want to be able to do the thing.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:37.920
So, yeah, that's that's right.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:44.240
How would you describe or what would you describe as a business that's outside of your ICP or who you try to focus on?
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.759
Because I know you focus more on tech companies, obviously fast-growing businesses we mentioned.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:54.000
Yeah, but also there are different types of businesses, whether brick and mortar retail businesses versus tech companies.
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.039
How do you think of what you might not want to focus on and why?
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.119
We don't have a ton of brick and mortar retail.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.920
We don't touch cash.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.400
So if you're a company that takes cash, that's that can be tough.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:02.799
Yeah.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:11.200
And generally speaking, it's like professional services type, office type businesses, whether you're in tech, you know, if you're an architect, if you're in finance.
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.880
There are lots of categories where we have lots of, lots of, lots of sort of space.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.920
But generally speaking, it's that.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.319
Yeah, we don't have a ton of like brick and mortar, you know, but and then we also work with lots of accountants.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:28.799
So that's sort of another ICP for us is accountants and accounting firms where they may have, you know, 10 or 100 clients and they're managing that, they're juggling that.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.079
We build product for them as well.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:36.079
So we build product that helps them manage their client portfolio inside row, ultimately close their clients' books more efficiently.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.119
And those span like tons of different industries, dentists or you know, or tech companies or anything above.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.839
So it's really a universal problem that we're solving.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.039
There's definitely certain market segments where we have just better access, better, better connectivity.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.799
They're generally early adopters, but we believe the whole market is our TAM, really.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.480
It's just focusing on one thing at a time.
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.039
Yeah.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:07.440
And I think one interesting trend that would be interesting to touch on is the evolution of vertical software and why you think banking and cash management, spend management shouldn't be included in this business in a box type trend.
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:07.759
Right.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:08.880
There's a couple reasons.
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.160
And I think this was sort of our like anti-thesis when we started the company.
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.480
Because at the time it was very sort of in vogue that was that there was going to be, you know, banking and spend for X, Y, Z for every every vertical.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.000
Right, for barbershops, you know, for we had Alex at sense on.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.079
They provide software to laundry mats, right?
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:26.240
Yeah, car washes, yeah, you name it.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:27.920
So some of those I think will exist.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.279
But I think from a banking perspective, the first point is that it's it's really hard.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:39.519
This is not a bolt-on project that you just like, oh, cool, let's get like, you know, two engineers and we'll, you know, we'll just integrate this and it'll just spit out money.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.359
That's really not how banking and payments works.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.319
It's all about like handling edge cases exceptionally well.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.839
At Roe, we built all our technical infrastructure from the ground up.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.519
We started with the Bass solution, we found its limitations very quickly.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.200
And then we're like, hey, like if we don't build our own core infrastructure, we're gonna, you know, maybe we upgrade to the next generation of Bass, but we're gonna have the same problem again and again and again.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.000
And ultimately the customers and the scale of customers that we're trying to service are not gonna be happy with our solution.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:11.759
So we believe that that's really critical if you're gonna deliver a solution to companies that you know depend on you, frankly, to survive, right?
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.440
So, first of all, it's hard.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.400
Second is that the problems are pretty universal.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.279
The CFO at that company, a tech company, and the CFO at let's say like an architecture firm are actually struggling with a lot of the same things.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:24.160
How do I close the books?
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.759
How do I make sure that you know we understand you know where money's going faster?
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:34.319
How do we ultimately ensure that our bills are getting paid on time and that we're not getting vendor fraud and stuff like that?
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.839
These are universal concepts that that permeate industries.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.640
You know, you can really think about it as like the CFO, the finance person is actually the industry, right?
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.960
And then there's like vehicles that kind of intersect that.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.759
And the finance professional is really like, is really all of them, 100% of them are trying to close their books faster.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:31:04.160
100% of them are trying to have less software to juggle on a single platform, 100% of them, you know, want to be able to have the best banking solution in the world, you know, be able to talk to somebody if they need to, and if they don't, like be able to just do, you know, do everything online.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.279
So yeah, from our perspective, that's really the industry.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:10.400
And then the vertical is just, you know, kind of subsets of that.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:10.720
Yeah.
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.559
What about from a go-to-market standpoint?
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.160
I mean, it's such a wide ICP.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:14.400
Yeah.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.400
And there's definitely a lot of risk going after startups.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:16.720
Yeah.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.599
And you want people like as they're starting their company to think of row.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.839
So how do you approach that from a go-to-market?
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.240
So I think that's that's where we get probably a little bit more vertical, is like when we when we go to market.
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.279
Because you're right, like it's harder to hit you know the whole market at once.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:36.319
And that's sort of the challenge in this space is you can get sort of wide-eyed and you know start to boil the ocean really quickly if you don't, if you don't narrow it down.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.599
But I think it's important to remember that, hey, like this whole market does exist.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.640
If we want to focus our attention here, we can focus right here or here.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.359
And so we we really do a lot of like, you know, just like in product management and the go to market side, what's the most important category?
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:50.559
What's the most important segment?
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.160
Where can we drive the highest, you know, return on effort, return on investment in terms of bringing customers to grow?
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:56.480
Yeah.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.799
We do a lot with tech companies of all stages.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.200
We've done a ton here in New York City and we're doing more in San Francisco, actually starting next year.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.559
And then we do a lot with accountants.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.039
It's really been a critical category for us that then spans a lot of categories.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:12.880
For us, we've also we've we've set the path on trying to be the best partner in the market.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.119
We're not the biggest firm by by headcount.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:16.799
We're not trying to grow through headcount either.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:36.400
So, what we're trying to do is really to develop super high-leverage partnerships with great organizations like Nabon, who we partnered with a year ago, and really work towards shared goals and help them deliver to their customer promise and help us deliver the best banking and card and spend management product in the world alongside the products that they're selling.
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.839
And that's been really successful so far.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.559
And that's helped us span, you know, across a number of industries.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:40.960
Yeah.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:43.839
What do you think Roe looks like in 2030?
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.599
2030 is not that far away, right?
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:46.160
It's five years.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.039
It's kind of crazy.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.720
But I think our long-term, our long-term aspiration is that we're building one of the largest financial institutions in the United States.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:55.119
And we're building it because we're not a financial institution.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.480
We're a tech company, right?
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:05.279
But in terms of scale, in terms of size, in terms of number of customers touched, we really believe that that is possible, that that will happen in fintech, and we want to be the ones that that that do that.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.559
We have a better product than than the incumbents, like Bar none.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.559
So to me, it's it's inevitable.
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.880
The first customer, the first 10 customers, first hundred customers, thousand, that's the hardest part, right?
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:16.400
Now it's just how do we rinse and repeat?
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:17.039
How do we scale?
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.079
How do we get that to a million?
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.839
How do we get that to every business in America?
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.160
But we believe that that's that's ultimately where this goes.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:29.119
And so we're excited to kind of spend the next, you know, I don't know if it's five years or or longer, but yeah, you know, spend that spend that time period getting there.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.440
Yeah.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.079
Should we end with a quick fire round?
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:32.880
Sure.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:33.279
Okay.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.240
So if you weren't CEO at Roe, what would you do for work?
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.039
I don't know.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.599
I'd I would try to I'd probably be trying to find another problem, interesting problem to solve.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:42.079
Okay.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.680
What's the third step in starting a business?
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:44.559
Yeah, that's right.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.720
What's one thing you would tell yourself if you could go back to day one of starting row?
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.559
So believe in yourself more, right?
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.759
Like I think that as a founder, you're especially a first-time founder.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:55.599
You you think about all the things you don't know.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.759
What you don't realize is that nobody really has those answers.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:02.240
And if you just you know are more confident and and push harder, you will go faster.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.319
What is your favorite iOS app?
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.079
Perplexity, for sure.
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:06.720
Why?
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:07.920
It makes you smarter.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.119
It's like it's an amazing product.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:15.679
It's the best, it's you know, it's the source of all like human knowledge accumulated over millennia in an app.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:16.639
It's incredible.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:17.599
Yeah, it's really good.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.239
Actually, OpenAI is a real-time search is getting much better.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.639
That is that's a side tangent.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.000
And what's one book recommendation?
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.280
One of my favorite books is this book called The Art of Learning, which is about it's about a chess player, but really it's about like how to solve hard problems and how to think about problems that you've never sort of solved before.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:38.000
I read it when I was a portfolio manager and it was really, really impactful as I made the transition.
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:38.559
Yeah.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.039
Great.
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.440
All right.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.760
Well, thanks so much for coming on and chatting about Ro.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.239
And obviously, if you're listening, check them out if you're starting a business.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:44.800
That's right.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.159
R H O dot co.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.400
Uh and happy to support all founders.
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.360
We have a ton of perks for companies just getting started.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.240
Transformational shift in terms of what was possible, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019.
00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:08.320
And and then that would ultimately end up in a sort of software-driven world.
00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:21.760
Welcome to Partner Path, a podcast that unpacks the venture capital and growth equity ecosystem from a junior perspective.
00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:28.320
Young entrepreneurs and investors have already had a massive impact on the industry, having started unicorns and launched billion-dollar funds.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:35.039
We discuss these success stories and more by sharing perspectives and advice from some of the industry's most prominent role models.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:41.600
This podcast expresses our views as of the date published and does not represent the views of and is not endorsed by any company for which we work.
00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:48.640
Before we get to the episode, Laura and I are excited to announce a partnership with Overlap.
00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:58.479
Fresh out of Y Combinator's Summer Badge, Overlap is an AI-driven app that uses large language models to curate the best moments from podcast episodes.
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Imagine having a smart assistant who reads through every podcast transcript, finds the best parts or parts most relevant to your search, and strings them together to form a new curated stream of content.
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:12.959
That is what Overlap does.
00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:21.280
I personally use Overlap to explore content on future podcast guests and highly recommend it as another diligence tool for investors.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:23.760
Check out Overlap on the App Store today.
00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:27.200
Today we are chatting with Everett Cook, co-founder and CEO at Roe.
00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:32.159
Prior to Roe, Everett spent a decade as a portfolio manager at multiple macro hedge funds.
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Then in 2018, Everett launched Roe, a financial operating platform for fast growing businesses.
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Welcome, Everett.
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Thanks for having me.
00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:40.640
Thanks for being here.
00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:46.480
So before starting Roe, you had a very successful Wall Street career as a macro investor at various hedge funds, as we mentioned.
00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:56.640
To start, we thought it would be interesting maybe to touch on how macro investing at big hedge funds work, just at a high level, and kind of what your role as a junior and then senior PM consisted of.
00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:57.280
Yeah.
00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:05.680
So I spent about 10 years in finance, spending most of that in global macro investing as an analyst, senior analyst, and then briefly as a PM.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:10.879
I was never like a huge portfolio manager, but spent a very long time working with some of the best people in that industry.
00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:16.400
And I got drawn to it first of all because I started in finance, in leverage finance out of college.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.680
And this was during the great financial crisis.
00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:26.960
And it was interesting to me to watch a lot of really smart people lose a lot of money really quickly.
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And for something that seemed pretty understandable and predictable.
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And I sort of zoomed out and I was like, who are the people that actually saw this coming, understood it, you know, made money from it?
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And there was this whole category of investors called global macro investors that really understood macroeconomic trends and how they impacted the broader economy.
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And, you know, nine out of ten of them had their best year ever, you know, those years because they understood what was coming.
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Whereas I think a lot of the other people that were, you know, more myopic sort of missed it.
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So I really wanted to go into that world.
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I, you know, I finished my analyst and worked for a very small one fund and then worked for what's now known as 0.72 at the time was SAC.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:10.159
And then worked for a billion dollar fund, a$2 billion fund, and then as a PM at a larger platform.
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.080
I got to work with a number of really great traders, some of the best people in the world in the space.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:18.560
And what was really interesting about it was first of all, like traders are weird.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:19.599
They're like founders, right?
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:21.439
Like it's like it's not one thing.
00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:22.400
They're all different.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.560
You know, one guy may be, you know, phenomenal at risk, one by guy may be an amazing analyst.
00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:30.400
Obviously, like the best people are, you know, understand every every part of it.
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But like building companies, it's it's always changing.
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The landscape's always changing.
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You know, the person that wins is the person that's adapting fastest to whatever is the change in the world that's happening.
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But for me, what was really similar and where I felt like I could make the transition was because it was really about understanding what in the world is changing and really having a broader picture and being able to zoom out better than other people.
00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:58.240
In global macro, probably more so than any other investment style, there is no real informational advantage.
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We're all playing from the same cards for the most part.
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.560
You know, there is no like, oh, I got this call from the Fed and they told me what they're gonna do.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.639
Like that there are people like there are rumors of that.
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:07.360
That doesn't happen.
00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:09.120
And even if it did, it wouldn't really help you that much.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.680
You know, so it's really about like seeing the bigger picture more clearly than everybody else, right?
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:21.279
Seeing the picture, the pieces come together and understanding where the market has biases and where the market is ultimately like crowding and hurting.
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:24.639
And, you know, how do you understand something that that nine out of 10 people don't?
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.279
And that's very similar to starting a company, right?
00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:34.639
You know, especially when you're starting out, there aren't necessarily really big secrets, but understanding technology trends and okay, this is changing, right?
00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.519
There's here's a foundational technology that's changing.
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And what does that power?
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And you know, the obvious answer is not usually not the right one, but it's like, how do you understand that second order?
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.000
And then how do you move really fast to execute?
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And so there's actually a pretty long history of founders that have similar backgrounds to me that made that transition because the while the the hard skills are not the same, the sort of the soft skills are, you know, that the critical thinking, the sort of understanding investment markets and and how broader shifts impact, you know, sort of micro.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.399
And we're definitely gonna dive deeper into fintech and how we went from macro to starting row.
00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.120
But can you just touch on your experience working with Mike Bloomberg?
00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:11.920
That's very fascinating.
00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.360
And we'd love to hear how that inspired some of your interest in entrepreneurship.
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.519
Yeah, it was it was an amazing opportunity.
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:19.759
I was really lucky to have really at a really early age.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:22.560
And that's probably what inspired me really to be an entrepreneur.
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At a really young age, I really wanted to work.
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I loved, you know, I loved business.
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And I just, I, you know, I didn't want to go play with my friends in the summer.
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I wanted to get a job.
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And I was able to sort of talk myself into a, you know, really like really sort of very like very like low, you know, low risk job from their perspective at at Bloomberg at the time.
00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.920
I was the youngest, youngest employee there, probably still uh probably hold that record for a summer.
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And anyway, I went in, they kind of put me in the corner.
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They were like, here, just watch a bunch of videos and I catalog them.
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I came back two weeks later.
00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.639
I was like, I built a database for you guys, like to manage all this stuff.
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Like, okay, you're kind of useful.
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And so anyway, I stuck around for a long time through the campaign, through and then for the first six months in City Hall.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:07.839
But for me, it was amazing just as an opportunity to really see, you know, one of the best founders, entrepreneurs of all time, right?
00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:15.360
And get a front of receipt into someone operating that caliber, you know, which is again, like I think one Mike is one of the greatest founders of all time.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:22.639
I know people don't think about him in the same sort of, you know, like tech world, you know, versus like Zuckerberg or jobs, but he is like, right?
00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.680
He's he is absolutely up there and has built a company that is like that size.
00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:26.079
Yeah.
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For me, it was really fascinating because number one, you appreciate like the humanity of someone like that.
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:33.839
Like he's not a he's not a superhuman.
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He's a he's a he's a person, right?
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He puts on his shoes.
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Yeah, you know, and he's very down to earth.
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And you know, he built an incredible company.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.480
And he did it by understanding that there was a technological shift happening, right?
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Understanding that that finance was going to move towards towards computers, toward digital.
00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:53.839
He had an advantage in terms of having you know a better understanding of that from his prior role at Solomon Brothers.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:03.120
And then he built a phenomenal culture around it once he sort of had that MVP product in the market and never stopped and never took money from VC either, which is uh which we'll get into as well.
00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:03.439
Yeah.
00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.199
For me, that was amazing just just to be able to see, like, just to be able to be, you know, 10 feet away and see what's happening there.
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.360
Because at a really young age, I was like, well, I want to do that.
00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:16.560
I I have no, you know, belief that I I can approach anything close to what he's accomplished.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:18.560
But it's amazing that a human being can even do that.
00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.399
And that's that was always what I wanted to do.
00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:20.720
Yeah.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:21.439
That's amazing.
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.360
So you leave the PM role 2017, 2018, to start a company.
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.639
And one of the first things that you have to do, which Will did for us, was set up a bank account when you ran into a problem.
00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.480
What did you want to start initially?
00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.399
And then what happened when you were like, oh crap, this is harder than what I thought.
00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:36.879
Yeah.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:37.839
So that's right.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.360
I left the fund I was at.
00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.199
You know, I talked about market changes.
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.839
There were a couple of interesting market changes that I thought were happening that I wanted to take advantage of and build a company around.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.480
So first I didn't leave with like a divine inspiration.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:08:05.120
And I think that there's this myth that, you know, if you're and I I don't you guys talk to more founders than I do probably, but I think there's the this, there's this myth that like you're gonna have this perfect idea when you leave your company and you know, you're gonna go start your company, you know, you're gonna resign one day and start the company the next day, and everything's gonna be laid out.
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:06.399
Maybe that happens for some people.
00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:07.839
Definitely didn't happen for me.
00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:22.079
And my my perspective was look, if I'm gonna spend the next 10, maybe longer years building a company, I want to make sure that it's something that I believe in, that I care about, and that I have really put in work into the why before I, you know, say, yeah, I'm let's let's go down this journey.
00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:28.879
So I left, I spent about three months trying to figure out what was what was interesting and what did I want to do.
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:37.200
And I thought the the initial idea that I had was, well, Instagram is is growing really fast and it's gonna redefine the way that consumer products are sold and and made and delivered.
00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.759
And this was the very beginning of sort of the direct to consumer boom, which ended up in a sort of a bust after that.
00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:43.919
But so it was probably a good a good miss.
00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:46.559
But step one, performed LLC.
00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:49.919
I was like, I'm gonna do some business projects, and then step two, open a bank account.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.639
And I got to step two and I kind of got stuck.
00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.440
It's wasted a day and a half trying to open a bank account.
00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:56.799
I was like, why is this this hard?
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:09.519
I was an early adopter of fintech solutions, like simple and some of the wealth management sort of fintechs, and had friends that are, you know, were early employees at SoFi and some of the early fintechs at that time, and kind of stuck in my head.
00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:10.639
And then I kept going.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.080
I was like, okay, well, I did get it open.
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.039
It wasn't, you know, it wasn't it didn't totally block me, it was just a waste of a day.
00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.600
But yeah, um, but it didn't even need to be need to be like that.
00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.919
Tried to work on a couple of D2C projects, realized that that wasn't necessarily my strength.
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.799
And then I kept getting asked by other founders like about fintech.
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.799
And like everyone'd you use, what'd you do?
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.200
Yeah, and just like everyone was fascinated with fintech.
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.200
All these people that had done other things like ad tech and stuff like that, they were like, you know, they were like, they were like, oh, this is this thing, and I don't know anything about finance.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:36.559
I was like, well, I actually know something about that.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.879
So maybe this is like the universe pulling me in this direction.
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:46.240
And we sat down, had a brainstorming session, and I talked to a number of founders, entrepreneurs, and like what's broken, and they were like, Man, like business banking is just terrible.
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.120
Like, and I was like, Oh yeah, like I had that experience, you know, a month ago.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:50.799
Like it was, it was really tough.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:51.759
Why is this so bad?
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:56.639
And why is like every other piece of software, every other piece of technology that I touch, you know, feel new.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.240
And then this feel like I'm going back in time, like 10 years longer, right?
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:00.480
Yeah.
00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.559
So that was sort of the inspiration.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:07.600
We started building there with the simple view of like what makes just the best bank account in the world.
00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.480
And then we built that, or what we believed that was the case.
00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:14.159
But what we really realized was the best bank account in the world isn't a bank account.
00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:15.200
It's really a system.
00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:19.440
And it's a system for you know, operating and organizing your finances as a company.
00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:27.039
And so all those things that people were doing outside the bank account, like bill pay, like expense management, like corporate cards, those needed to come in.
00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.240
And it needed to be one platform that you could use and that you wouldn't have to touch anything else as a finance person, as a founder, as an accountant.
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.639
And that's really what we what it's the inspiration for Roe.
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:37.600
There's a big vision.
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.039
And some people were like, you know, you're crazy, like this is a good idea, but you're never gonna get that far.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.000
But you know, here we are seven years later, continuing to hack away at it.
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.600
Yeah, that's very fascinating.
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:50.720
And you you touched on how you built out the product and the natural extensions of the bank platform.
00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.320
Obviously, as a seed series A now, you know, series B post Series B business resources are scarce, right?
00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.360
You only have so much capital, you have to make your capital go as far as it can.
00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:07.039
How do you go about deciding what is the next project or the next piece of the product that you should work on?
00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.600
How do you how does that prioritization process work?
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:19.120
I mean, look, I think that's true at any stage, no matter how many people or resources you have, you're always systematically constrained because companies can only do a couple of things really well, you know, even if you're Microsoft, right?
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.919
For us, we have a phenomenal product management team that spends all day kind of thinking about those problems.
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:27.679
Earlier on, when we didn't have that, it was really about just talking to customers.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.879
And actually, really early on when we first started, we knew that there was a huge spectrum of things that we did not have.
00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:34.480
And we were like, what do we do first?
00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:40.159
And we would actually go out and pitch customers on our product, pitch customers that were larger than our ICP because we wanted to go out and market.
00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.279
And we just had a spreadsheet and we were like, why'd they say no?
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:44.559
And we would just mark it down.
00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:50.080
And whichever kind of had the highest score and the lowest you know difficulty rating, we would just do first.
00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.639
And then we kept working on that list over time again, eventually kind of became product management, became more professional.
00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:56.159
But but it was it was really that simple.
00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:57.840
It's just talking to our users day in day out.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:11:58.399
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:58.480 --> 00:11:58.879
Very customer.
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.360
Why didn't you start with the initial wedge of row?
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:08.080
The initial wedge of row, which is better business banking, and it was opening a business bank account online, you know, for startups.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.440
And it was interesting because when we started, it was 20 2019.
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.919
It was October 2019, it was when we launched the product.
00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.559
And you know, we would market it and we would talk to customers.
00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.360
We did a lot of community stuff, we did a lot of meetups in New York.
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.200
And, you know, about half the time we hear, well, like there's a Chase branch like by my, you know, right down the street from me.
00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.840
And I was like, okay, but you don't want to spend your day there, like, you know, like do this online.
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.200
This is 20 2019.
00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.799
You know, we're pretty far along at this point.
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.879
And then three months later, right, COVID happens and you know, everything's shut.
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.440
And you know, all of a sudden it's like, oh, I can do this all online now.
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:40.159
I don't I don't have to.
00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.279
Like you, you know, you don't have a choice.
00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:42.159
We're the only game of time.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:44.960
So you know, we went like this, it was really exciting.
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.279
But then even after that, right, like we never got that question again.
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.720
It was never like, oh, I want to go to branch.
00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:49.919
Everyone realized they didn't have to do that.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:56.879
The behavior changed, COVID had fundamentally changed, shifted people's perception of what you had to do, you know, physically, and the world was never gonna go back.
00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:03.039
But that was, you know, initially that was very hard for people to do outside of you know us and a few other people early that were early.
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:20.000
Yeah, I think that brings up an interesting point that I'd love to touch on, which is just trying to understand why is this an area that's better suited for a technology company as opposed to a larger financial institution like a Chase, which is obviously part of JP Morgan, as are other retail brick and mortar banks, right?
00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:21.519
Why should this be a tech solution?
00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.320
First of all, it's not purely a tech solution, right?
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:29.200
We we partner with banks to deliver products and services, and uh among them business banking.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:37.840
So today we partner with Webster Bank, which is a$70 billion bank based in Connecticut, and they do what they're excellent at, which is risk management, balance sheet management, et cetera.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.120
And then we deliver technology that the customer you know touches and feels.
00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.840
Banks are not technology companies, and technology companies are not banks.
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:44.960
And I think that's that's really important.
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.559
I think most banks would agree with that too.
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.600
They're not their expertise is not building great products.
00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.200
Building a product organization, building great software is really hard, right?
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.559
You guys see it every day in your portfolio and companies that you meet, founders that you meet.
00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:03.360
You know, it's it's it's a organizational skill that is very different than what exists at banks, even the largest banks.
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.799
And just because they have thousands and thousands of uh engineers doesn't mean they can build better products.
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:13.039
And that's like it's like it's a pure, you know, sort of innovator's dilemma type type thing, right?
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.200
Like it's the same with same with startups, right?
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:21.519
Just because you know, Microsoft, Google have lots of engineers doesn't mean that they can build everything or build it better unnecessarily.
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.799
So I think it's it's really about that, about like just deeply understanding your user, you know, maybe picking one of them, right?
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:32.480
We don't do consumer banking, we don't do, you know, like mortgages, all these other things that a bank kind of has to do.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:32.799
Yeah.
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.039
We really focus on one lane, and then we are building software because we believe that software is really what adds value to customer experience.
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:44.960
And then the bank really like owns the the back end of ultimately the payments, the money storage, stuff like that.
00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.679
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Now back to the episode.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.039
Obviously, there are other tech solutions that are taking on the consumer banking side, right?
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.120
Like a Chime or other various new banks.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.720
So I think that begs the question.
00:15:44.960 --> 00:16:01.039
Looking forward, what do you think the outlook is for big banks like a JP Morgan Chase or a Bank of America, where obviously you guys are taking business from them or some type of value that would otherwise accrue to them on the commercial banking side, they're getting attacked on the consumer banking side.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.519
It almost seems like some of these big financial institutions are dying and death by a thousand cuts.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.279
What will they continue to excel in?
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:13.759
You mentioned risk management among a couple of other things, but what's your perspective on the long-term outlook for a lot of these big players?
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.519
Yeah, I think that they're there are a couple things.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:16.399
I don't think they're going anywhere.
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.320
Soon, you know, I think that they will continue, they will start to partner more frequently with fintech companies.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.399
Some may buy some, but they will, I think there'll be more of a, you know, more of a partnership.
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.519
I think fintech and banks went through a couple of phases over the past, you know, decade or so, right?
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.360
First, you know, the the banks were like, well, this is this is too small to matter.
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:34.240
Like nobody cares.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.639
And then fintech valuations, you know, during the bubble were like, you know, just insane.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.000
And it was sort of the other way.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.919
And now I think it's more like, let's meet in the middle and let's figure out how to build a better solution for our customers.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.000
The banks recognize that they're not software companies.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:58.559
The fintechs recognize that they need to work with good banks and really good banks, not just like these little regional banks that I think people had had worked with, sorry, not regional, but community banks that some of the fintech companies have built on top of.
00:16:58.639 --> 00:16:58.720
Yeah.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:07.759
And it's like, look, if you're gonna build a premium grade product, you need to work with a premium grade bank that actually is well regulated, understands this product, understands this space, like our partner today.
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.640
And so I think that it's a it's a positive relationship over time.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.240
I think that there are areas that will move more towards fintech.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.759
I don't think that fintech will ever be big balance sheet lending.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.920
There's no competitive advantages of fintech to do that.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.200
I don't think that fintechs, you know, on the consumer side, I think there are segments.
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.880
I think that the prime segments, I think it will still be hard for fintech to crack.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:28.000
I haven't seen that happen yet.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:37.920
Maybe they will, but I think segments where the banks struggle to serve and struggle to do really well, those will ultimately be, you know, fintechs will be doing them, and then fintechs will be hopefully doing them in partnership with great banks.
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.799
And I think over time that's that's ultimately how how it progresses.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.240
I do think that there'll be a hollowing out of like the mid-tier banks.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:51.920
You know, it it they'll either be excellent at lending and be earning their name that way and really not making much on the other side, or they they won't necessarily be there.
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.720
Banks end up sort of you know looking like credit credit hedge funds in a lot of ways, right?
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:04.079
They're putting credit out there, they're borrowing, you know, but but they don't necessarily have a thriving retail business outside the sort of the top top couple.
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:09.119
Do you think there's room for any brick and mortar presence in the banking future in five or 10 years?
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.279
Yeah, you know, I I do actually.
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.119
I think that it's it's really interesting.
00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:19.039
I mean, you you see some banks that are pulling back from it, you know, and and just not investing.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:26.559
Other banks like PNC, who I actually have a ton of respect for, I think it's an exceptionally well-managed bank, are investing$1.5 billion in in brick and mortar.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.640
There's definitely like return on that investment.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.400
There's customers that that care about that.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:39.039
There are also just customers that care about like like workflow software and you know, process optimization and stuff like that, and and accounting integrations and doing all those things really well.
00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.119
So I think that there's room for both, just like you know, direct to consumer, right?
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.519
Seven years ago, people were like, oh, like retail is gonna be dead.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.480
Like it's just gonna disappear.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.119
Like, no, you know, you're gonna walk down Madison Avenue and it's gonna be empty.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:50.400
Yeah, it didn't happen, right?
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:51.920
Like, yeah, but it evolved.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:06.240
You know, there's some stuff that you buy online, there's some stuff that you buy in stores, and there's the the use of stores today is probably different than it was 10 years ago because it's more about a you know showcasing the brand as opposed to necessarily, hey, like walking into the store to buy, you know, a stapler or something like that that you buy on Amazon, right?
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.400
So I think that's true in this space as well.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.720
Do you think that any of the digitally native banks will ever get into brick and mortar presents?
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.039
Will we be able to walk into a row back to the I don't know?
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:23.599
It's probably not like a you know a venture, venture scale sort of like return on investment, maybe one for for marketing purposes, but probably not in the near term.
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:24.319
Yeah, got it.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:33.039
I guess then when you think about we've touched on the big bank side of the market and where they play in, I guess, row generally speaking, but what about it's become a highly competitive space?
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.759
And I think it's a big market, so there probably can be a few winners.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.839
But how do you think about differentiating from some of the other players, like Rex and Ramp?
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.680
And I also know that their initial wedge was like a little bit different than Rose.
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.319
Yeah, I mean, look, we all started around the same time.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.640
I think we all understood that there was a transformational shift in terms of what was possible, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019.
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.000
And then that would ultimately end up in a sort of software-driven world.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.759
I have a lot of respect for all those companies.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.519
I think they some of them have led the way, some of them are, you know, have were later.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.960
But for us, we think about it as like, look, number one, yes, it's a really big space.
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.640
And you know, it's if you actually count it, it's probably the biggest tan across the board.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.119
Number two, we think about it around our customers.
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.480
We're just like we talk to our customers, we're customer obsessed, we're not competitor obsessed.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.519
For us, it's really understanding where there are problems that we can solve and and solutions that we can deliver.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.599
And yeah, like for them, I think we have a couple things that are different philosophically.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.920
We started with business banking, both of them started as cards.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:27.359
Brex now does business banking.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:29.680
I wouldn't be surprised if if other people start doing that.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:36.400
In addition, for us, we we really believe that customer service is an integral part of customer experience.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.720
And it's not something that that should be sort of an afterthought.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.960
That's probably the one of the biggest differences that that we see.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.839
You know, we believe in having the best product, having the best pricing, and also delivering it with the world's best customer service.
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:50.079
And that's something that probably, you know, other other folks have a different philosophy on than we do.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:59.759
How can you differentiate from like a customer service standpoint and how do you know when you're spending too much versus not enough time with a customer, especially as you've been around for a while, but still a lean team?
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.240
Yeah.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.640
You never want customer service to be your requirement.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.759
You never want people to have to reach out to do something or have to, you know, non-bl have you always want the product to solve the problem.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:15.039
That said, when you are dealing with people's money, there is a heightened sense of sensitivity and there's a desire to talk to someone fairly frequently.
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:21.839
And so we think about it as like from a, you know, we have a multi-tiered model in terms of how we structure those teams and how we deliver that service.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:29.519
We don't use BPOs, we don't outsource it, but it is cost effective because uh we're, you know, the product is generally able to solve all the problems.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:35.119
But sometimes our team is able is there to help them understand sort of where, you know, how to how to use it themselves.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.599
And then they have to go back to our designers and be like, hey, like, you know, we have this, but it wasn't intuitive enough.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.799
How do we make that more intuitive that we have less of those tickets?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.039
Um so those things also like just support each other, right?
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:49.200
Customer service is is part of our product org and it and it supports our product.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:50.720
You know, their goal is to make that go down.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:57.920
But why don't you hope that nobody needs it, but you want to make sure that when someone interacts with your organization, like it's it's an A plus every time.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And so that that's how we think about it.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.480
Yeah, it sounds like some of the AI customer service companies might not be the best fit for fintech.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:05.839
I don't you know, I don't know.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.039
Like we're we'll see.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.039
I think we're I'm optimistic on that side.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.440
I think that it'll be uh it'll be an evolution.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:18.079
You know, the more of the low-level stuff that can be automated gives your team more time and bandwidth to to solve sort of more complicated problems.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:23.119
But yeah, I think overall, like there's there is still a a premium put on being able to interact with a human on the other side.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:33.599
Do you have a view on I know this is a slight tangent, but there's been a lot of venture money going into folks like Sierra and Decagon and their customer support, customer service agents.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.519
If you think back five, 10 years, there was a lot of capital invested in customer service AI.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:39.759
Right.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.160
Right?
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.000
Which which there's a lot of products out there, intercom, a core AI.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.200
There are a lot of folks that already provide quote unquote customer service AI.
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:57.200
Do you have a view on whether investment in this new agenc world in that product use case will kind of come to fruition or I'm really excited about it?
00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.240
Yeah, we've explored all of them.
00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.599
We're really excited about that space.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.240
I think that again, it allows our team to ultimately like up-level what they're doing.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:04.559
Yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.839
So I'm I'm hopeful.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:13.359
I mean, the foundational models are evolving so quickly that I think that it's natural that you'll see more agentic solutions in the future.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.319
But again, we think about it as like, look, where's the market today?
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.000
Where's it going to be in a year or two years?
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.880
How do we position there, you know, as we continue to kind of move forward?
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:22.319
We'll think longer term as well.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.880
Right now, no, it's not, it's not quite there.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:26.000
Like I think you can tell, right?
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.319
Like the turning, it generally fails the turning test.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:29.279
But but we're getting closer.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:38.319
So maybe it would be good to touch on the interest rate cycle and how you've seen that effect row from what you've got a market standpoint and just value proposition for your existing customers.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:38.799
Yeah.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:40.480
So we're we're influenced by that.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:46.400
And I think that the way that we've thought about it is you know, we we have a cash management business and a spend management business.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.920
Cash management is business banking, spend management is corporate cards.
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.039
For us, when when rates go up, generally speaking, the cash management side does better.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.920
And also we're able to deliver more value back to customers in terms of by giving them treasury solutions.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.960
So founders that are sitting on millions of dollars of cash, you know, can earn four or five percent.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.119
Yeah.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:05.839
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.680
So that becomes really attractive to people who, you know, where that money may have been sitting somewhere else, not doing anything.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.359
But our margin on our cards goes down a bit because we have to borrow for that.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.759
And then on the other side, when rates go down, vice versa.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.240
We try to build a sort of a more somewhat balanced business.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.240
It may shift sort of one way or the other a little bit.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:31.759
But ultimately we believe like both of those things are important, both for the end user as well as for the business model to make sure that we're not super you know impacted by interest rates, regardless which direction they're moving.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:32.480
Right, right.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:38.240
Which I'm sure your experience as a macro investor helps you position a little bit, you know, sooner maybe thanks to the.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.279
Yeah, I mean, I I I'm more trying to like not take risk.
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.319
Like I'm I, you know, my perspective is like I I did that before, you know, I'm sort of done, I retired from that world.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:56.000
So my goal is always obsessing about like how do we, you know, how do we avoid taking a view on that stuff, or how do we avoid taking risk on things that are, you know, are macro and focus on just like building a business.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:57.680
But you actually have to think about it if you're gonna avoid it.
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.720
Otherwise, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be kind of you know whipsawed by it.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.359
Right, right.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:08.720
And I I know, Everett, you've done a couple other podcasts where you've touched on high-level your ICP and and the type of customer that you target.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:14.160
It's typically right when you're starting to think about bringing on a CFO or fractional CFO, right?
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.319
Going from one person business to a couple of people is an interesting inflection point.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.960
But I think it'd be helpful to chat through your ICP and how you decided to target that ICP.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:28.400
Obviously, you're focused on fast-growing small, medium-sized businesses across various verticals.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:33.759
Maybe you should start with why focus on smaller businesses with high growth and what was the thought process there?
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.119
So you know, today Roe spans a pretty wide spectrum.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:48.319
So we we work with companies that are literally just getting started day zero to you know, 10,000 plus person companies with you know hundreds of locations across the country and everything in between.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:54.960
But for us, we think like the companies that get the most value out of row are those ones that are that are just starting to hit some inflection.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:11.359
And really because we're able to give them sort of a full you know financial operating system that they can take out of the box and have day one and ultimately solve those problems that that they're experiencing around spend management, around you know, managing their capital, around you know, closing their books faster.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.519
Um, so ultimately that's where we see that need the most, the most acute.
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.559
But really, like we love starting with companies like when they just get started too.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.559
And you know, the platform is can be self-service and they they can sign up and just go all the way through.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.640
And ultimately, and that way when they do hit that inflection point, they're they're ready.
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.599
Is it difficult to build for a self-service customer as well as an enterprise customer?
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:32.559
Yeah, it is.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.759
It's like a it's a particularly unique challenge that our product managers have to kind of figure out every day.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.119
There is definitely like an overlap.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.119
If you think of it, there's like a Venn diagram, right?
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:42.960
And it's like, what does that enterprise customer want?
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:44.960
What does that smaller SMB want?
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:47.039
And how do we make sure that the product works together?
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:54.640
We try to frame it as like at Row, and this is part of our mission statement internally, is that we're trying to build the simplest and most powerful product in our category.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.519
And simple meaning like you can use it out of the box.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:05.119
If if you were to start a company tomorrow, like sign up for row, you know, easier than than Chase or then you know some of the other FinTech companies.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.960
But if you're scaling, you know, it's not gonna break.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.400
You're not gonna have scaling problems.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:12.720
And ultimately you're gonna be able to have your permissions that are as granular as you want, right?
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:23.599
So, you know, if you're big companies that they get very granular in terms of like whose labs do what, how do we like do permissions, you know, if you're allowed to spend, who has to approve it, who has to approve that, you know, several chains down, et cetera.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:30.319
So, yes, making all that work together in sort of a single user experience that's cohesive is a is a challenge, but that's why we hire really smart people.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.000
But ultimately, you really believe that simplicity is universal.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.480
Everybody wants a simple product, they just want to be able to do the thing.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:37.920
So, yeah, that's that's right.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:44.240
How would you describe or what would you describe as a business that's outside of your ICP or who you try to focus on?
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.759
Because I know you focus more on tech companies, obviously fast-growing businesses we mentioned.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:54.000
Yeah, but also there are different types of businesses, whether brick and mortar retail businesses versus tech companies.
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.039
How do you think of what you might not want to focus on and why?
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.119
We don't have a ton of brick and mortar retail.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.920
We don't touch cash.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.400
So if you're a company that takes cash, that's that can be tough.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:02.799
Yeah.
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:11.200
And generally speaking, it's like professional services type, office type businesses, whether you're in tech, you know, if you're an architect, if you're in finance.
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.880
There are lots of categories where we have lots of, lots of, lots of sort of space.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:15.920
But generally speaking, it's that.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.319
Yeah, we don't have a ton of like brick and mortar, you know, but and then we also work with lots of accountants.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:28.799
So that's sort of another ICP for us is accountants and accounting firms where they may have, you know, 10 or 100 clients and they're managing that, they're juggling that.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.079
We build product for them as well.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:36.079
So we build product that helps them manage their client portfolio inside row, ultimately close their clients' books more efficiently.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.119
And those span like tons of different industries, dentists or you know, or tech companies or anything above.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.839
So it's really a universal problem that we're solving.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.039
There's definitely certain market segments where we have just better access, better, better connectivity.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.799
They're generally early adopters, but we believe the whole market is our TAM, really.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.480
It's just focusing on one thing at a time.
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.039
Yeah.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:07.440
And I think one interesting trend that would be interesting to touch on is the evolution of vertical software and why you think banking and cash management, spend management shouldn't be included in this business in a box type trend.
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:07.759
Right.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:08.880
There's a couple reasons.
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.160
And I think this was sort of our like anti-thesis when we started the company.
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.480
Because at the time it was very sort of in vogue that was that there was going to be, you know, banking and spend for X, Y, Z for every every vertical.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.000
Right, for barbershops, you know, for we had Alex at sense on.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.079
They provide software to laundry mats, right?
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:26.240
Yeah, car washes, yeah, you name it.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:27.920
So some of those I think will exist.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.279
But I think from a banking perspective, the first point is that it's it's really hard.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:39.519
This is not a bolt-on project that you just like, oh, cool, let's get like, you know, two engineers and we'll, you know, we'll just integrate this and it'll just spit out money.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:41.359
That's really not how banking and payments works.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.319
It's all about like handling edge cases exceptionally well.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.839
At Roe, we built all our technical infrastructure from the ground up.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.519
We started with the Bass solution, we found its limitations very quickly.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.200
And then we're like, hey, like if we don't build our own core infrastructure, we're gonna, you know, maybe we upgrade to the next generation of Bass, but we're gonna have the same problem again and again and again.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.000
And ultimately the customers and the scale of customers that we're trying to service are not gonna be happy with our solution.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:11.759
So we believe that that's really critical if you're gonna deliver a solution to companies that you know depend on you, frankly, to survive, right?
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.440
So, first of all, it's hard.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.400
Second is that the problems are pretty universal.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:23.279
The CFO at that company, a tech company, and the CFO at let's say like an architecture firm are actually struggling with a lot of the same things.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:24.160
How do I close the books?
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.759
How do I make sure that you know we understand you know where money's going faster?
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:34.319
How do we ultimately ensure that our bills are getting paid on time and that we're not getting vendor fraud and stuff like that?
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.839
These are universal concepts that that permeate industries.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.640
You know, you can really think about it as like the CFO, the finance person is actually the industry, right?
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.960
And then there's like vehicles that kind of intersect that.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.759
And the finance professional is really like, is really all of them, 100% of them are trying to close their books faster.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:31:04.160
100% of them are trying to have less software to juggle on a single platform, 100% of them, you know, want to be able to have the best banking solution in the world, you know, be able to talk to somebody if they need to, and if they don't, like be able to just do, you know, do everything online.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.279
So yeah, from our perspective, that's really the industry.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:10.400
And then the vertical is just, you know, kind of subsets of that.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:10.720
Yeah.
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.559
What about from a go-to-market standpoint?
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.160
I mean, it's such a wide ICP.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:14.400
Yeah.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.400
And there's definitely a lot of risk going after startups.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:16.720
Yeah.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.599
And you want people like as they're starting their company to think of row.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.839
So how do you approach that from a go-to-market?
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.240
So I think that's that's where we get probably a little bit more vertical, is like when we when we go to market.
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.279
Because you're right, like it's harder to hit you know the whole market at once.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:36.319
And that's sort of the challenge in this space is you can get sort of wide-eyed and you know start to boil the ocean really quickly if you don't, if you don't narrow it down.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.599
But I think it's important to remember that, hey, like this whole market does exist.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.640
If we want to focus our attention here, we can focus right here or here.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.359
And so we we really do a lot of like, you know, just like in product management and the go to market side, what's the most important category?
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:50.559
What's the most important segment?
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.160
Where can we drive the highest, you know, return on effort, return on investment in terms of bringing customers to grow?
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:56.480
Yeah.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.799
We do a lot with tech companies of all stages.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:03.200
We've done a ton here in New York City and we're doing more in San Francisco, actually starting next year.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.559
And then we do a lot with accountants.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.039
It's really been a critical category for us that then spans a lot of categories.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:12.880
For us, we've also we've we've set the path on trying to be the best partner in the market.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.119
We're not the biggest firm by by headcount.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:16.799
We're not trying to grow through headcount either.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:36.400
So, what we're trying to do is really to develop super high-leverage partnerships with great organizations like Nabon, who we partnered with a year ago, and really work towards shared goals and help them deliver to their customer promise and help us deliver the best banking and card and spend management product in the world alongside the products that they're selling.
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.839
And that's been really successful so far.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.559
And that's helped us span, you know, across a number of industries.
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:40.960
Yeah.
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:43.839
What do you think Roe looks like in 2030?
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.599
2030 is not that far away, right?
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:46.160
It's five years.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.039
It's kind of crazy.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.720
But I think our long-term, our long-term aspiration is that we're building one of the largest financial institutions in the United States.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:55.119
And we're building it because we're not a financial institution.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.480
We're a tech company, right?
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:05.279
But in terms of scale, in terms of size, in terms of number of customers touched, we really believe that that is possible, that that will happen in fintech, and we want to be the ones that that that do that.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.559
We have a better product than than the incumbents, like Bar none.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.559
So to me, it's it's inevitable.
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.880
The first customer, the first 10 customers, first hundred customers, thousand, that's the hardest part, right?
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:16.400
Now it's just how do we rinse and repeat?
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:17.039
How do we scale?
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.079
How do we get that to a million?
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.839
How do we get that to every business in America?
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.160
But we believe that that's that's ultimately where this goes.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:29.119
And so we're excited to kind of spend the next, you know, I don't know if it's five years or or longer, but yeah, you know, spend that spend that time period getting there.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.440
Yeah.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.079
Should we end with a quick fire round?
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:32.880
Sure.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:33.279
Okay.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.240
So if you weren't CEO at Roe, what would you do for work?
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.039
I don't know.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.599
I'd I would try to I'd probably be trying to find another problem, interesting problem to solve.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:42.079
Okay.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:43.680
What's the third step in starting a business?
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:44.559
Yeah, that's right.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.720
What's one thing you would tell yourself if you could go back to day one of starting row?
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.559
So believe in yourself more, right?
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.759
Like I think that as a founder, you're especially a first-time founder.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:55.599
You you think about all the things you don't know.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.759
What you don't realize is that nobody really has those answers.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:02.240
And if you just you know are more confident and and push harder, you will go faster.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.319
What is your favorite iOS app?
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.079
Perplexity, for sure.
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:06.720
Why?
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:07.920
It makes you smarter.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.119
It's like it's an amazing product.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:15.679
It's the best, it's you know, it's the source of all like human knowledge accumulated over millennia in an app.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:16.639
It's incredible.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:17.599
Yeah, it's really good.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.239
Actually, OpenAI is a real-time search is getting much better.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.639
That is that's a side tangent.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.000
And what's one book recommendation?
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One of my favorite books is this book called The Art of Learning, which is about it's about a chess player, but really it's about like how to solve hard problems and how to think about problems that you've never sort of solved before.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:38.000
I read it when I was a portfolio manager and it was really, really impactful as I made the transition.
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:38.559
Yeah.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.039
Great.
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.440
All right.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.760
Well, thanks so much for coming on and chatting about Ro.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.239
And obviously, if you're listening, check them out if you're starting a business.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:44.800
That's right.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.159
R H O dot co.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.400
Uh and happy to support all founders.
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We have a ton of perks for companies just getting started.
