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You're listening to The Fire Side with Founders and Leaders podcast. The podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look of some of the world's most amazing founders and leaders, looking at their journeys and how they got to where they are today.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of The Fireside with Founders and Leaders podcast. Happy New Year. We're in 2026. Thank you for continuing to to join us. I've got an amazing episode for you today. I'm speaking to the quite simply, remarkable Anthee, who is Chief Transformation Officer working in PE backed organizations that private equity backed organizations.
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For anyone who's got an a keen interest in understanding what it is like to work in these types of organizations. This is a great episode for you to get some first hand insight now, as well as talking a bit about what it's like to work in these organizations, we talk about and these career path, which has been anything but linear.
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So far. So looking at how you can try and implement some of the things that she's done over the last ten years to engineer her dream role in this chief transformation position that she's in at the moment, and looking at where she's going to go to take things further. So some great insights and really practical tips and hints that will help people, and some things that you certainly won't know about what it's like and what it takes to work in a PE backed organization.
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Hello, Anthony. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, Rupert. Good to be here. Really good to be here in the fabulous London Bridge today. So thank you for making the effort to come into what I feel is probably the new home for any, you know, in-person recordings that will do for this, this podcast from now on.
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Looks beautiful and looks very cozy. Feels like an omen. We just need the fire. And then it really is a fireside chat, and we nearly there. Well, thank you so much for for coming in and joining me. We're gonna talk about a lot of things today, a lot about your your background, some of the things that you've done.
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Of course. A bit about the world, because that is your background and your bread and butter. I think there's some really great insights that we can tuck into that people won't know. And people are asking lots of questions about this sort of stuff. So but before we do that, can you give us a brief history as to who you are?
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Who who is Anthony? Oh, I, first of all, I'm a mom, of Harry. We discussed that before. Harry's three years old. And, I work in, technology for the last ten years. So I'm quite fortunate to have, have been in the UK for the last ten years. And from the beginning, I joined some of the the most impressive, organizations.
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And grew myself further in their so we can discuss more and, I am I'm originally I'm Greek, so I'm Greek, Greek at heart. Yeah. And, I do a lot of work as well. When it comes to philanthropy with small training in, in, in Africa this period of time, which is something that gives me deep meaning and gives me purpose as well.
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So a lot of roles. Yeah. Lots of different things. So that's. Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to tuck into some of that stuff, as we go through the course of this conversation, which I'm genuinely, really, really excited about, your career hasn't been linear, should we say, you know, you've been quite we've we've called it squiggly before. I think we've talked off air.
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So tell us about your career path, where you started your your career journey, starting in sales, moving through FMcG into, to fintech backed organizations like, talk to us a bit more about how you've made that transition. Absolutely. So I started originally I'm coming from a family business background, which I think makes this podcast fantastic because is that it ticks both boxes in terms of founder and leader.
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Right. Coming from a family business background, being, carting the bag for more than eight years in the retail FMcG industry and then, moved into technology, something less than ten years ago, and worked directly for private equity backed SAS, enterprise, B2B, SAS, software providers. And for the last decade, I grew myself within that industry.
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Originally, I was driving, more a go to market since I was come from sales. The CRO organization and the go to market commercial roles is in my sweet spot, and something that I it's is, is something that I absolutely love doing as well. So originally it was, driving go to market, strategy, roles and then slowly grew up, got myself from owning to, chief of staff role for the CEO.
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And lastly, for the last, three and a half years, I am chief transformation officer. And how how do you go about sort of year making that that sort of moment? Was there a moment where you went, actually, I really want to change and move from, for example, fast moving consumer goods into, fintech finance, changing in terms of the industries because a lot of people will go through their careers, they'll be doing the same thing for maybe 20 years, and they'll wake up one day and go, oh, man, like, I want to change.
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I want to do something differently. So was there was there a pivotal moment where you you woke up and you thought I wanted to do something differently or was intentional? I mean, first of all, I was in Greece, so born and raised in Greece. I was in the family business. And I think a lot of your audience that they run their own business or grew up in a family business resonated with the fact that is it is a tough gig is difficult, right?
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It has its challenges. And, it gives you an incredible, platform for growth because you you're wearing multiple roles and you're understanding that what it takes to run a business, and make it successful. And I think after a while, I felt, a, I don't feel I belong in the country anymore. I don't think I'm maximizing my potential.
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Number two, I don't see the opportunity for me to grow within the industry. I'm in, the retail, space is probably the supermarket channel that I was, active. It's a difficult. It's a difficult space. Right. Especially for the middle mid-market suppliers. Not the the proctors and the the big or. Yeah. Providers. Right.
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The suppliers. I'm talking about the rest of us. Yeah. It's competitive. Yeah. Everyone wants a piece of a pie, and the space in the shelves is very limited. Right? So you have to pay for the space. You have to merchandise it. You need to make sure that the product is turning around fast, etc., etc., etc.. So, I felt okay, this is not what I want to do or like.
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Fast forward, I'm closing my eyes. How does it looks like in 20 years from now? Yeah, do I see myself? And that was a no. Okay, so at that point that was like this kind of a light bulb moment for me. At that point, it was all about how do I drive? I try and break and I find an incredible, an incredible, beneficial moment.
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I find it very, very profound to pause and think, okay, if I continue operating the way I operate, what does my future, the outlook looks like? Yeah. And how can I drive a trend break? And for me, the trend break was not only I need to change the vertical, the industry. I mean, I need to change the vertical, the industry.
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I mean, I need to leave the country I'm in. Yeah. And I need to break the gold chains, which is called family. Yeah. And family business. And usually I think this is the toughest of the three. Yeah. I mean, especially when you work for family business, everything is, is there. You've got a responsibility to your mobile phone, to your credit cards, to the fact that you run ten things in the business, ten roles that for you to be replaced, you need they need multiple people.
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So I found the two of them, the conjuring the vertical easier by doing an executive MBA. But the mental element of breaking free, if I may use the word from the family business, was the toughest one that took me many years to to to truly feel that level of, okay, now I have that kind of psycho geographical distance on truly understanding who am I?
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Yeah, who do I want to be like? Who is, the outside, the family business and the influences from that. So I think that that's where that's what led me to do the executive MBA global. I was the first Greek, the did impartial, Columbia Business School, London Business School and Hong Kong University did an executive MBA. So I was flying every month to a different, one of these three campuses.
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And at the end, I fell in love with with a UK. Yeah. And London. And I decided to stay here. Oh. Very good. Well, we are. You are again. Ultimately, in terms of London. So, I feel it's mutual. Yeah. Good. Well. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're pleased to be here. It's it's a really tough thing to do is you've just mentioned right to to go and break that cycle.
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And a lot of people, as I said earlier, they they get stuck into it. I think that by the fact that you were prepared to, to do or to go and do your MBA, travel around like most of the time, if people are prepared to, to make that sort of commitment, the fed to make that commitment to leave their home country as well.
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I think I've seen some statistics I can't remember off the top of my head. I wish I could now, but that you're more likely to succeed if you're prepared to leave your home country and emigrate to another, another country because you've got nothing else to lose ultimately. Or you, you're you're really, you know, intentional perhaps about your what your goals are and why you're doing what you're doing.
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So do you feel that by by leaving Greece and leaving all of that, that sort of past life behind you? So to me, which sounds really dramatic, but it's not meant to be. Did that help you to sort of really push forward and go, this is and the 2.0, if you like, 100%. Yeah, I think you're spot on.
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Right. 100%. Especially if you leave your home country right where you were born and raised and where your family is. I think you need to be very, very intentional of what you're trying to achieve. And I'm someone that I am very strategic. I'm I'm a visionary. So I can see I know who I am now, who I will be in five years, ten years, 20 years, 30 years.
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Right? I have always been like that since I was a kid. Yeah. And I usually reverse engineer it and say, okay, how can I get there? There are multiple paths, to get there. But you said the right word. You need to be intentional. And when you are intentional, I think one thing that I find very important is you need to be able to, to, to shut down the noise.
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Yeah. Because there's a lot of noise around. And a lot of times, especially if you are moving in the new country, everything is new, new culture, new systems, new processes, new way of communicating, new language, etc.. You need to allow yourself to fail. You need to allow yourself to, to to fall. Yeah. As long as you pick yourself up again and again and again.
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So there is this element of reinvention working on your next version. There's the element of resilience. There is the element of, insistence and persistence. I'm going to I'm going to keep heading to my goal, to my target. And no one said it's going to be, easy. But if it were, it was easy. Everyone would have done it.
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Quite simple. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And you should be fine with that. I think the other element with moving in a new country that I find very interesting is, You one thing that really, really, I feel helped my journey and made me love the this country that I am here in the UK. Even more is the fact that I, I did not come in with my Greek mentality and try to implement it here.
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I walked in with an element of curiosity, of truly understanding, okay, how a small island in the map really managed to make the entire world speak their language. Yeah, and it's something I have said that to a lot of people that they know me well, that there is this kind of true admiration of how a country like the UK managed to be the UK across the centuries and truly dominate the world.
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Yeah, either it's politics or strategy or diplomacy or or so it's, when you come in with this mindset of curiosity, trying to really understand the culture, try to really understand how the British are thinking, what makes them successful, how do they operate, what are the manners? I was very impressed of the manners. Okay, I think you are setting yourself up for success.
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Yeah. Versus trying to be in your own bubble. Replicate what you already know in an environment and vice versa, right? If I were to take what I'm doing here and try to put them in an environment like Greece, 99.9%, I wouldn't have been successful because it operates on a different system. Yeah. And that's a really important thing to mention is the systems, because you've got you talked about the UK being, you know, Great Britain and it is a great country and I love, love the UK.
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But there's also lots of people at the moment as this is recorded leaving the UK right to go to other, other places. I agree. And the people that have success in those other places tend to work to the systems in those, those countries, rather than just purely and taking up what they've they've done in one country and moving it to another.
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It doesn't tend to work like that. Yeah. Even though I would say and we don't need to go that direction because this is more politics. But I would say the reason for the brain drain, let's say now that is happening more is more taxation. Yes. Rather than, I don't like the system. I don't like the culture. It's more what are the incentives you are giving me, to be to increase my quality of life here?
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Right. I think that's another podcast. Yeah. That's another. That's another episode on its own. I'm not well qualified to talk about that. I've got my opinions, but I'll keep them to myself for now. So we talked a bit about obviously your background more recently backed environments. Why is it that so many leaders want to get into, to PE firms into that environment?
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Why do you think it's such, such a great place to be that people want to be in there? That's a good question. You know, I've spent the last few months actually being quite active in a lot of roundtable deals and networking events, meeting some of the most phenomenal people in the country and across the world. And they are all very much I agree with you.
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There are very much interested in joining private equity backed business. I don't have the answer to this. Okay. I really don't. And many times I'm asking them and, I don't get a clear answer either. I think there's a hype in, in, in, in the awarding of it without truly understanding the implications. Yeah, but that's my take.
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Not sure if it's correct. Yeah. Okay. The things that I have been quite fortunate in, what, if I may say, the fact that from the beginning I join the technology industry, I work for a private equity backed business, even though at that time I didn't know what these means. Yeah, I was quite junior, and starting myself, from, from not an executive roles source didn't have the, the, the exposure needed.
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I was quite fortunate to understand. Okay. This is a different ball game, right? Yeah. It's pace. Yeah. Is precision is execution. And this period of time as well since 2022 and onwards is profitable growth. Yeah. So it's a completely it's it's, it's, you don't only manage the transformation, the growth, you're managing the velocity and the expectations of the investors.
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So I don't know if the people they want to join the private equity backed businesses know that this is the level of of pace and scrutiny. They would, they would have to expect. That's really interesting because they people say they want to to go into this, this sort of sector, but they don't know why like that. That almost baffles me sometimes.
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But then if it's because people see pound signs, dollar signs and think, okay, private equity could be exciting, could make a load of money on an exit, which is all these things are true, right? They're all possibilities. But it's not necessarily the sole reason to, to get into these sort of areas. So perhaps I'll ask you the question in a different way.
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What do you like about it? Oh, I what I just said, because I am fast, the way I am as an individual, I love the fact that the fact that, first of all, I haven't work for a non private equity bank. Okay. So form, provider, which doesn't help to answer in a more holistic, nicely rounded way.
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Your, your question. However what I like about I'm staying with the private equity. It's not that I just like it. I'm passionate about it. I actually did, a few months back, certificate at Imperial College. On on the private equity, sector. What I love about it is the fact that it is all about shareholder value.
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It's all about and increasing the enterprise value of the business, which for me, it's it's the reason to exist. Yeah. Okay. If we cannot add value either by going to market better, selling more, becoming more sticky, have a customer that is not only buying from us, but is a loyal. So it keeps coming back to us, keeps opening door for us, etc. and if we don't do that in a way that is profitable in terms of our bottom line, then why do we exist?
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Yeah. So for me, it goes back to the principles of and the preneur soup and and and business existence. And especially in the private equity. What I love is that there's zero room for theatrics. Yeah. Which is how I am. I'm quite direct. Yeah. I'm quite transparent. I always lead with radical transparency. Some environments like it, some others not, and that's fine.
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Yeah. But I think in the private equity world, things are quite simple. Yeah. What you said is it is impact performance and ultimately shareholder value for everyone, for the shareholder, the investors, for the partners, for the employees, for everyone. And do you think that the the rest of the, the investment world or the business world even has woken up to that a little bit in recent years?
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You talked about since at least it's 2022, right? It's about growth, profitability, rather than just growth, for the sake of growth, which I believe mostly the PE world has been based around profitability, right, about making money as a business want to make money, whereas the, the VC market and I appreciate you don't have direct experience working in this space, but my my experience working with people in this space is that it wasn't about making money straight away, that the plenty of businesses out there that were seen as high value businesses, but never made any money.
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And is that something that now is is disappearing and you're seeing a trend of. I think so, yeah, I think I think, I think up to 20, 22, the transactions we're seeing in the market, they were all about multiples of, of revenue. Right. And and there are a lot of and we don't need to call the names.
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There are a lot of tech businesses, out there. And they were, that they were not profitable for decades. But they were growing. And I think that, if I may call it bubble or that trend broke back in 2022, roughly mid 2022. And there were other, other things that happened during that period of time, like the semiconductor crisis, etc..
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That really helped accelerate that shift into really asking the question, how solid are you as a business? Do you truly grow profitably? Do you really add value there? Not just by selling and spending, but by truly selling and scaling? So it's, it became a movement rather than a momentum. Yeah. Okay. And that's where things have changed.
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And 100%. Yes. I want to talk a bit about your roles, if we can. And so you talked about being chief of staff in your role, which I think is a probably a misunderstood role. Certainly in the UK market, if you ask people, most people, what chief of staff does, they might think about politics or something like that in, in terms of the US.
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And I know it's now been brought into some, you know, UK politics, you know, roles and organizations or parties I should say, rather than organizations. So tell us a bit more about that role, because I think people don't necessarily understand like what is the chief of staff do I think you are? You're correct Rupert, I think it is a misunderstood role.
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So before I became into the staff again, I was in the crew organization. The sales organization where things are straightforward is black or white. You are the hero, are the zero. You hit the numbers, you grow your footprint, you increase the team. Success. And, and as such, you are impacting your top line, right. But what these roles, the go to markets, commercial strategy roles really taught me, they start building in me the cross-functional corporation type of muscle.
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Right? Yeah. Because you have to work with the sales team, the revenue operations, your, your, marketing, etc.. When the, the chief of staff role came in, I remember it, since it was, as if it was yesterday, I was the probably the first, was the first, I would say, to the staff in the P, backed SAS world in the UK.
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Yeah. So I got the role in 2021. There was no chief of staff in the industry in the UK. And how I know that I knew that because I was getting phone calls from recruiters saying to me what you just said. Yeah, thi what what is this role? Is this like a glorified EA role? Yeah. We only see in the white House.
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Yeah. Like in the US, the the role was already popular. It was it was getting popularity across the tech world. It just took a few years to, to come to the, to the, to Europe and especially in the UK market. So what is the chief of staff role. So the chief of staff role. It's it's not an admin role.
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Yeah. It's definitely not not an admin role. Not a glorified EA role. And if it's a glorified a this is another all you want to be. Yeah. It's a role where you are the right hand of the CEO. I'm talking about the CEO. Chief of staff. Okay? Which is what I've done. You're the right hand of the CEO.
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So you're sitting in the engine room running all the critical initiatives and programs for that office. Yeah. And you are the person that is structuring the office of the CEO that has multiple dimensions and a lot of complexity as well. You are the person that navigates the the relationships with the board of directors, the board of advisors, the investors, the executive team, what your CEO wants.
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So you are advocating their agenda. So there's always a loyalty associated with that role. Usually is the number one role that you will be fired if your CEO is fired. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're a team. Yeah, you are. You are the right hand. There is always an association of who you support. Yeah. And now when you do this role, there are two archetypes.
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There is the archetype of I want to be a chief of staff. I'm comfortable being a chief of staff, which means I don't have a direct team. Direct authority. Your currency is influence and trust. Yeah. Or I see this role as a fast track acceleration in my career. To get exposure three six in the organization. That will take me to the next level, which is a C-suite role.
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Yeah. And from the two archetypes, both of them are fine. It depends. If you want to be a professional chief of staff or you want to. You see that as your basically your leadership lab. Yeah. And I think I know the answer to this question, but which one of you I was the second. There's always the second. But my CEO, the person who promoted me to that role so saw me as the second.
00:26:04:23 - 00:26:25:16
Yeah. Okay. So the reason I'm remembering it as if it was yesterday, when my boss came in, he said, listen, you know, nothing outside the office of the CRO. Yeah. The only thing you know from your life is sales. So how about you take this role and you get exposed to the business and you grow yourself? That's reinvention 3.0.
00:26:25:16 - 00:26:58:22
No, no, no, I we keep it we. Yeah yeah we evolve. Evolve. So 3.0 you take that role and you get really exposed to to the rest of the organization. You get exposed to no board dynamics. The executive team, complexity and power where there's complexities. Confidential, super confidential program programs and projects, things that cannot like your confidentiality and the level of confidentiality in this role is critical.
00:26:58:22 - 00:27:32:02
Yeah. And we take it from there. And this is how I evolve into that with with a view to get get that exposure, understand what it is to be outside the office of the CRO, understand what it means. Well, being in for instance, doing R&D, new tech, professional services, what does it mean? Customer sentiment, like, things are a bit further out from the direct running the numbers, bookings, of the CRO and stay there for at least two and a half, three years.
00:27:32:04 - 00:28:03:01
Nice and strong. Use it as an education. Right to understand. And that's 100%. Especially in the private equity world, this role is even more imperative. Yeah, because it's the person that is is acting as the glue as well. It's similar to transformation and not so similar, but there are some elements that they are. They are quite similar, as the glue between what your board or your, shareholders want to see versus what your CEO wants to do versus what the executive team can do.
00:28:03:01 - 00:28:28:15
Yeah. So again, your currencies is trust is influence. You you don't have direct teams. So your influence to drive that kind of the behavior you want to see is critical. That's why whoever has the role needs to be highly diplomatic and understand that sometimes you don't need to share everything you hear. You have to keep some things for yourself, because that is not helping the people that you are supporting so, so slightly.
00:28:28:15 - 00:28:44:13
So you need to have 100%. Yeah, you need to have critical mindset like a very critical mind on the information you're getting. And so not everyone is going to be in a position where they've got a great CEO who actually says, you know, this is the position I think you need to move into to to get ahead. I know where you're going.
00:28:44:13 - 00:29:00:22
I can see the path you're on. I want to help you get there faster. So how would you suggest the other people, perhaps listening to this who are thinking, actually, I want to be that that type B type person like you want to get ahead, want to get more, you know, further into the room, into other potential C-suite roles.
00:29:00:23 - 00:29:23:10
How do they engineer that move into, chief of staff as a as a role if you fell for it? Yeah, it just ask for it. Ask for it. Yeah. Build the job description you on. Do your research. You you're never go unprepared. And you never do your research. Build the job description. You wan understand the areas that you will bring value to.
00:29:23:11 - 00:29:48:00
What are the why you yeah. Right. Versus someone else. Understand the areas that you need to be exposed as well to, to grow and further evolve and build the relationship so that someone I think because of the sensitivity of the role trust, I keep coming back to trust. That's why a lot of times you see the chief of stuff's evolving from within the business because people know them for a year or two.
00:29:48:00 - 00:30:07:07
So they know who they are, they know the values they operate. I think your values really dictate if you're going to be a successful chief of staff. So if I had to say something is there is a chance you'll learn in chief of staff role from the outside in, but you will be even more empowered and enabled if you come from the from the inside.
00:30:07:07 - 00:30:25:12
So built. Built what you want to ask and ask for it, I love it. That's so true for yourself. It's all about branding, right? Personal branding, positioning yourself. You are a doer. You can execute. You are the fixer because ultimately this one is a behind the scenes fixer. How do you do that? Yeah. No showcase. And you've got to do it.
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:47:14
Ultimately that's fun. You have to do it. And now you've then transitioned into a transformation role as CTO. Since that that role of chief of staff. So you're still on that, that path and that, that your ever, ever growing journey and, and lessons that you're learning along the way. A lot of people think that transformation is all about, you know, strategy.
00:30:47:14 - 00:30:55:16
You know, lots of decks, big ideas, that sort of stuff like what's what's the truth?
00:30:55:17 - 00:31:23:14
I think like the chief of staff transformation is a misunderstood role as well. But it depends who you speak to. You may speak to chief transformation officers, and they only thing they've done is interim roles. So in that case, they're all about coming in, fixing things, make sure they leave behind a legacy, the foundation for the business to operate and leave.
00:31:23:15 - 00:31:50:15
That's quite common, isn't it? Which is quite common. It's quite common. My experience, I have they're all the last two and a half years, as a chief strategy officer and then chief, transformation officer and operations, officer is that this is not especially if it's a permanent role within the organization. It's not an internal consulting function.
00:31:50:15 - 00:32:19:03
Yep. And if you are building an internal consulting function, either you are very big a billion plus, or you're billing it wrong. Yeah. Why? Because transformation is all about building the sustainable foundation for growth. Going back to what we said and what does a private equity world wants, which is the profitable growth it's all about? How do you futureproof the organization to support that level.
00:32:19:05 - 00:32:42:23
So let's say we have a business that grows 20, 25% year over year with a bottom line, 30, 35% year over year. So how can you keep growing at that level? Because that's the predicament, a transformation officer is in because they need to sustain that growth. But the more you grow the default, the more difficult it becomes. The foundations are not the same.
00:32:42:23 - 00:33:02:10
So if you are 100 million, 150 million, it takes a transformation to get to 350. Yeah, it takes a different transformation to get you to 550 and different want to get you to 801 billion. So by the time you are 100 mil, 150 to 1 billion, you need for different types of transformations. And you need four different types of transformation.
00:33:02:10 - 00:33:24:19
Officer or not necessarily depends of who you have hired. Yeah, but the point I'm making is this is not internal consulting role is not just beautiful. Dax needs to have whatever you build in terms of vision and strategy with your CEO, because ultimately you are the CEO. That's a similarity with the chief of staff. But the chief transformation officer doesn't exist without the CEO.
00:33:24:20 - 00:33:47:20
Yeah. Buying. Right. So whatever you build in terms of executing their vision needs to be paired with operational realism. It's not just beautiful slides. It needs to be how what do we how do we make the impact. By what? Yeah. So what are we doing in terms of programs. How are we wiring rewiring the belief of our people?
00:33:47:21 - 00:34:11:11
Because everything starts from the people. How do we remove any resistance? There's always resistance. So how do you remove the resistance? Yeah. And ultimately when do we expect this impact we're making to hit the PNL. And how do you do that with the resistance? Because that's the biggest, biggest change. I speak to a lot of people, and as you say, people are the biggest asset, but they can also be the biggest problems.
00:34:11:11 - 00:34:37:19
And especially when you're going through change, it can be a real challenge because that that people, that humans at the end of it. So you've got to try and nurture them through it. So how do you manage that? For sure it is the most challenging element. I never see people as a problem. I see if I don't, if I'm not able as a leader to help you see the why.
00:34:37:20 - 00:34:55:21
And that's why I always lead with a power of why I. I love Simon Sinek and I was given his book one day and I just fell in love. And since then, I give this book to everyone in my teams when they start working with me. Because I cannot ask you to change if you don't understand the why, what's in it for you?
00:34:55:23 - 00:35:18:19
How what you will be changing will benefit yourself, your teams, your business, right? The businesses in general. How we are part of the same journey, how we're part of the same boat. So I don't I've never seen people as a problem. I've seen me the way I position things, either the resonate or not. If they don't resonate, I need to change my way.
00:35:18:21 - 00:35:41:14
If they do resonate, I double down on that and continue like that. Yeah, so it's all about being able to articulate the why, why we're asking to change. That's part one of resistance. Number two, what's in it for them? Yeah. All right. And number three, share the vision. You always go back to your vision. Everyone wants to be part of a successful story.
00:35:41:17 - 00:36:00:10
Yeah, everyone wants to be part of that I there's personal professional. I there's your friends, your family, your colleagues. No one will doubt your ability to get things done once you've proven this. So they want to be part of that story. I find this fascinating because it almost feels full circle. That's a lot of those things you're talking about.
00:36:00:12 - 00:36:21:17
Like sales 101. If you're thinking about your your original background, it's sales, right? You're telling the story in it is sales is influence. So I think that's why I didn't I didn't pursue this role. It came to me. Yeah. But I love it. And I love it because it blends all the things that I've done in my lives up to this day.
00:36:21:19 - 00:36:44:22
It is sales, because you need to sell the vision of your CEO together with your CEO. You need to sell the why, why some things have to change, why some things brought us here, but not necessarily take us further. And it is it is execution. So you still need to fix things, but you're not a behind the scenes fixer like a chief of staff.
00:36:45:00 - 00:37:11:04
You are front stage. Yep. And one thing that I always say is that you need to be comfortable by being uncomfortable. If you are hiring into a transformation officer and you expect not to receive and I'm happy, call, then for sure you have hired the wrong transformation officer. Yeah, because there is no such thing that you transform a business at its core.
00:37:11:04 - 00:37:37:22
You're rewiring beliefs. Your ego are in behaviors and not make people unhappy. At some point. Yes, you're gonna always make some people unhappy. So as a CEO, if you haven't received the unhappy call, then you need to ask yourself, have I had the right person or do they focus on the right things? Yeah. Okay. So it's really making sure that you're just again, doubling down on focusing on what's important.
00:37:37:22 - 00:38:02:06
Right. For for this transformation. That's what's going to help move it forwards, change the needle to get to that desired outcome of whatever it might be. And I think there are two things that may to two behaviors that really make this role successful. Or it's a mission impossible. Number one, would you don't have it as a chief of staff because it's it's given as a transformation officer.
00:38:02:06 - 00:38:27:04
You need CEO visible sponsorship. Yeah. And I think this is something we see in private equity where the fond and the private equity loves you. And they put you in that role. They, they promote you in a few portfolio businesses. And you know, not necessarily have the understanding of what your role is about who you are from the CEO aspect.
00:38:27:06 - 00:38:50:00
So having the visible sponsorship of the CEO, where they're backing you to make change happen, promote the programs you have to promote, focus on the things that matter to them. Yeah. So you kind of be successful for them and for the business. This is critical. And the second one is especially if you're coming from a chief of staff, evolution like I am.
00:38:50:06 - 00:39:14:02
So now we are already 4.0. You need to rebrand yourself. Yeah. You're not the buck. But behind the scenes fixer, you're front stage. You will have a team. Probably you have integration, semen M&A team, some operations team. Depending on what is your your trajectory. You have a team, you may have a budget. You don't have a budget.
00:39:14:02 - 00:39:41:01
So you have a budget automation officer. And then you rebrand yourself with the executive team. You are the peer now you are a peer. Yeah. So this is a different narrative. And usually it's a different everybody from you to them run the other way around. Nice. Well I want to change a bit of the direction of travel that we've been talking about because as we mentioned, you do a lot of charitable work you have done for, for many years.
00:39:41:03 - 00:39:55:18
And you're involved with a charity called Small Train. We do a lot of work over in Ghana. So I'd like to talk a bit about bit about that, because I think there's some really interesting, interesting points and certainly some things that most people won't know about. I certainly didn't know about any of it until we started talking.
00:39:55:18 - 00:40:15:16
So first of all, tell us a bit more about Small Train. What do they do and how are you involved? I am, I am a supporter of Small Train. I'm not, I'm not part of the board or something. I am just a donor and supporter. But, I find that smile train, a purpose that it took.
00:40:15:18 - 00:40:45:12
I was looking for for a while. Small train is a is, originally, a New York based charity. So American charity, they have, an office here in the UK. And, they do more than 20 million surgeries across the world the last, for the last few years. And they are providing health care access and do the surgeries for, adults and kids that suffer from cleft condition.
00:40:45:14 - 00:41:07:07
And I didn't know what cleft condition was. I very randomly. So in LinkedIn, a post from from Susie Schaefer, who is the CEO of Smile Train. One of mine and someone in my network had commented on it and just popped up on my wall and, apparently cleft. It's not only when your lip is tied to your nose is when the whole palate is missing.
00:41:07:07 - 00:41:30:22
Right? So when the whole palate is missing, it may take up to 20, 25 surgeries to, to to to fix this. Because if you're a baby, you cannot breastfeed. You can barely breathe. If you're an adult, you cannot talk. So it really does, especially in, in areas, that they are, deprived areas. It really it really stigmatizes you.
00:41:30:23 - 00:41:54:07
And what really resonated with me is the fact that it's 100% treatable. Okay. And but it's just not being treated on the most part. It's a lack of education and awareness, for sure. But it's like of healthcare access is okay. So being able to provide that healthcare access, which is what small train is doing. So small train do both.
00:41:54:09 - 00:42:21:01
They do train the nurses and the doctors to, to conduct surgeries. They do provide. So they do provide that kind of, health care access via some centers. They are working with local governments to build, like the one we inaugurated in Ghana back in, in June. And lastly, they are they are providing the education and the awareness to the rest of us here in the world to understand that this is happening.
00:42:21:03 - 00:42:50:01
This is in 2025 and 100% treatable. And it's for a very small cost. Yeah. Comparing to to the cost of living, especially here in the UK, that, every, every, every penny matters, right? And can make a difference. So this is how I, I came across small train. Okay. I believe because it's one of those things that again, you're pretty quite sheltered to most people won't know anything about this is being a problem because, you know, it's a bit like you you'll have heard of.
00:42:50:01 - 00:43:10:13
Okay, what what is the cleft palate? What does that mean? People will probably know roughly what a what it means. You think it's cosmetic, right? I thought it was cosmetic. I didn't know that. It's an actual. It was an actual condition. Yeah. And even today, they don't know what triggered what. What's creating cleft if if it's genetic or not.
00:43:10:15 - 00:43:27:10
But one thing that really resonated with me is that, as you said in the beginning, I've been doing a lot of work with a lot of charts for many years since since I was a kid, to go with my family. But the older I get, the more I want to feel that the impact is becoming tangible.
00:43:27:16 - 00:43:47:03
I want to see it. I want to witness it. I really want to see how much I'm making impact into someone's life and a thing. With Small Train, I was able to get that sense of purpose because I was able to see, okay, this is a surgery, this how much it cost. This is this was the kid before and after.
00:43:47:04 - 00:44:20:01
Yeah. So you really have change human life, which is amazing, right? You guys, you get to see the. Yeah. The the the trail of how it all happens ultimately rather than you know, most people would give give some money. Don't think about it ever again. That's it. And that's the thing. Right. Because, I have supported a lot of, charities, which I don't want to call here, but you give, let's say, 20 pounds, 30 pounds per month, if you ask how many, how, how, how much money out of this ends up going to the to the kid, it's less than a pound and a half.
00:44:20:04 - 00:44:43:10
Yeah. Well, you say, aren't they these charities and and me as needing to and and just need to operate somehow. So yes, there will be administrative costs but again goes back to what I want to see now, the impact I want to make and I want to experience and I want to see it. So it really matters for me to to have that tangible, tangible effect, which I didn't get before.
00:44:43:15 - 00:45:01:09
And it strikes me, is that that's the kind of person you are, right. And in business as well. You want to see the impact. I want to see the impact. So that's what it's all about. It's a good point. And and what would you give us some advice then to someone perhaps we are looking at, elevating their career, maybe their sort of early phases, maybe their mid phases.
00:45:01:09 - 00:45:21:06
I don't know what's the one bit of advice that you would give someone to to try and really get themselves push themselves forward, to elevate their career? If they're thinking, I want to do something different. Number one, be clear what you want. Shut down the noise. Once you are clear what you want. Number two. Number three.
00:45:21:06 - 00:45:44:16
Don't take things personally. I think this is where, as all of us have, experience in the beginning of our career where we were a bit too emotionally invested on situations and people don't think specifically. You'll fall. Pick up again. Keep going. Yeah. Keep learning, keep learning, keep going, keep evolving. And the thing is, the market does evolve.
00:45:44:18 - 00:45:54:00
The industry doesn't. All today's AI tomorrow will be something else right. So it's it's it's all about how you becoming that resilient on this
00:45:54:00 - 00:45:54:03
it?
00:45:54:03 - 00:46:04:00
And thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Really, really fascinating talking to you. I'm sure lots of people are going to learn lots from this. So yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here.
00:46:04:00 - 00:46:29:00
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00:46:29:04 - 00:46:36:14
And thanks again for listening to the fireside with Founders and Leaders podcast.
You're listening to The Fire Side with Founders and Leaders podcast. The podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look of some of the world's most amazing founders and leaders, looking at their journeys and how they got to where they are today.
00:00:24:02 - 00:00:51:22
Hello everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of The Fireside with Founders and Leaders podcast. Happy New Year. We're in 2026. Thank you for continuing to to join us. I've got an amazing episode for you today. I'm speaking to the quite simply, remarkable Anthee, who is Chief Transformation Officer working in PE backed organizations that private equity backed organizations.
00:00:52:03 - 00:01:11:23
For anyone who's got an a keen interest in understanding what it is like to work in these types of organizations. This is a great episode for you to get some first hand insight now, as well as talking a bit about what it's like to work in these organizations, we talk about and these career path, which has been anything but linear.
00:01:11:23 - 00:01:39:18
So far. So looking at how you can try and implement some of the things that she's done over the last ten years to engineer her dream role in this chief transformation position that she's in at the moment, and looking at where she's going to go to take things further. So some great insights and really practical tips and hints that will help people, and some things that you certainly won't know about what it's like and what it takes to work in a PE backed organization.
00:01:39:18 - 00:01:56:05
Hello, Anthony. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, Rupert. Good to be here. Really good to be here in the fabulous London Bridge today. So thank you for making the effort to come into what I feel is probably the new home for any, you know, in-person recordings that will do for this, this podcast from now on.
00:01:56:07 - 00:02:12:13
Looks beautiful and looks very cozy. Feels like an omen. We just need the fire. And then it really is a fireside chat, and we nearly there. Well, thank you so much for for coming in and joining me. We're gonna talk about a lot of things today, a lot about your your background, some of the things that you've done.
00:02:12:13 - 00:02:32:13
Of course. A bit about the world, because that is your background and your bread and butter. I think there's some really great insights that we can tuck into that people won't know. And people are asking lots of questions about this sort of stuff. So but before we do that, can you give us a brief history as to who you are?
00:02:32:14 - 00:03:00:09
Who who is Anthony? Oh, I, first of all, I'm a mom, of Harry. We discussed that before. Harry's three years old. And, I work in, technology for the last ten years. So I'm quite fortunate to have, have been in the UK for the last ten years. And from the beginning, I joined some of the the most impressive, organizations.
00:03:00:11 - 00:03:23:07
And grew myself further in their so we can discuss more and, I am I'm originally I'm Greek, so I'm Greek, Greek at heart. Yeah. And, I do a lot of work as well. When it comes to philanthropy with small training in, in, in Africa this period of time, which is something that gives me deep meaning and gives me purpose as well.
00:03:23:09 - 00:03:43:18
So a lot of roles. Yeah. Lots of different things. So that's. Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to tuck into some of that stuff, as we go through the course of this conversation, which I'm genuinely, really, really excited about, your career hasn't been linear, should we say, you know, you've been quite we've we've called it squiggly before. I think we've talked off air.
00:03:43:20 - 00:04:10:19
So tell us about your career path, where you started your your career journey, starting in sales, moving through FMcG into, to fintech backed organizations like, talk to us a bit more about how you've made that transition. Absolutely. So I started originally I'm coming from a family business background, which I think makes this podcast fantastic because is that it ticks both boxes in terms of founder and leader.
00:04:10:19 - 00:04:41:15
Right. Coming from a family business background, being, carting the bag for more than eight years in the retail FMcG industry and then, moved into technology, something less than ten years ago, and worked directly for private equity backed SAS, enterprise, B2B, SAS, software providers. And for the last decade, I grew myself within that industry.
00:04:41:21 - 00:05:10:18
Originally, I was driving, more a go to market since I was come from sales. The CRO organization and the go to market commercial roles is in my sweet spot, and something that I it's is, is something that I absolutely love doing as well. So originally it was, driving go to market, strategy, roles and then slowly grew up, got myself from owning to, chief of staff role for the CEO.
00:05:10:20 - 00:05:42:13
And lastly, for the last, three and a half years, I am chief transformation officer. And how how do you go about sort of year making that that sort of moment? Was there a moment where you went, actually, I really want to change and move from, for example, fast moving consumer goods into, fintech finance, changing in terms of the industries because a lot of people will go through their careers, they'll be doing the same thing for maybe 20 years, and they'll wake up one day and go, oh, man, like, I want to change.
00:05:42:13 - 00:06:06:13
I want to do something differently. So was there was there a pivotal moment where you you woke up and you thought I wanted to do something differently or was intentional? I mean, first of all, I was in Greece, so born and raised in Greece. I was in the family business. And I think a lot of your audience that they run their own business or grew up in a family business resonated with the fact that is it is a tough gig is difficult, right?
00:06:06:18 - 00:06:31:19
It has its challenges. And, it gives you an incredible, platform for growth because you you're wearing multiple roles and you're understanding that what it takes to run a business, and make it successful. And I think after a while, I felt, a, I don't feel I belong in the country anymore. I don't think I'm maximizing my potential.
00:06:31:21 - 00:06:56:01
Number two, I don't see the opportunity for me to grow within the industry. I'm in, the retail, space is probably the supermarket channel that I was, active. It's a difficult. It's a difficult space. Right. Especially for the middle mid-market suppliers. Not the the proctors and the the big or. Yeah. Providers. Right.
00:06:56:01 - 00:07:19:13
The suppliers. I'm talking about the rest of us. Yeah. It's competitive. Yeah. Everyone wants a piece of a pie, and the space in the shelves is very limited. Right? So you have to pay for the space. You have to merchandise it. You need to make sure that the product is turning around fast, etc., etc., etc.. So, I felt okay, this is not what I want to do or like.
00:07:19:15 - 00:07:44:15
Fast forward, I'm closing my eyes. How does it looks like in 20 years from now? Yeah, do I see myself? And that was a no. Okay, so at that point that was like this kind of a light bulb moment for me. At that point, it was all about how do I drive? I try and break and I find an incredible, an incredible, beneficial moment.
00:07:44:15 - 00:08:04:12
I find it very, very profound to pause and think, okay, if I continue operating the way I operate, what does my future, the outlook looks like? Yeah. And how can I drive a trend break? And for me, the trend break was not only I need to change the vertical, the industry. I mean, I need to change the vertical, the industry.
00:08:04:12 - 00:08:34:18
I mean, I need to leave the country I'm in. Yeah. And I need to break the gold chains, which is called family. Yeah. And family business. And usually I think this is the toughest of the three. Yeah. I mean, especially when you work for family business, everything is, is there. You've got a responsibility to your mobile phone, to your credit cards, to the fact that you run ten things in the business, ten roles that for you to be replaced, you need they need multiple people.
00:08:34:20 - 00:09:01:23
So I found the two of them, the conjuring the vertical easier by doing an executive MBA. But the mental element of breaking free, if I may use the word from the family business, was the toughest one that took me many years to to to truly feel that level of, okay, now I have that kind of psycho geographical distance on truly understanding who am I?
00:09:01:23 - 00:09:24:23
Yeah, who do I want to be like? Who is, the outside, the family business and the influences from that. So I think that that's where that's what led me to do the executive MBA global. I was the first Greek, the did impartial, Columbia Business School, London Business School and Hong Kong University did an executive MBA. So I was flying every month to a different, one of these three campuses.
00:09:25:00 - 00:09:50:11
And at the end, I fell in love with with a UK. Yeah. And London. And I decided to stay here. Oh. Very good. Well, we are. You are again. Ultimately, in terms of London. So, I feel it's mutual. Yeah. Good. Well. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're pleased to be here. It's it's a really tough thing to do is you've just mentioned right to to go and break that cycle.
00:09:50:11 - 00:10:09:11
And a lot of people, as I said earlier, they they get stuck into it. I think that by the fact that you were prepared to, to do or to go and do your MBA, travel around like most of the time, if people are prepared to, to make that sort of commitment, the fed to make that commitment to leave their home country as well.
00:10:09:13 - 00:10:30:19
I think I've seen some statistics I can't remember off the top of my head. I wish I could now, but that you're more likely to succeed if you're prepared to leave your home country and emigrate to another, another country because you've got nothing else to lose ultimately. Or you, you're you're really, you know, intentional perhaps about your what your goals are and why you're doing what you're doing.
00:10:30:21 - 00:10:48:14
So do you feel that by by leaving Greece and leaving all of that, that sort of past life behind you? So to me, which sounds really dramatic, but it's not meant to be. Did that help you to sort of really push forward and go, this is and the 2.0, if you like, 100%. Yeah, I think you're spot on.
00:10:48:14 - 00:11:12:05
Right. 100%. Especially if you leave your home country right where you were born and raised and where your family is. I think you need to be very, very intentional of what you're trying to achieve. And I'm someone that I am very strategic. I'm I'm a visionary. So I can see I know who I am now, who I will be in five years, ten years, 20 years, 30 years.
00:11:12:05 - 00:11:34:07
Right? I have always been like that since I was a kid. Yeah. And I usually reverse engineer it and say, okay, how can I get there? There are multiple paths, to get there. But you said the right word. You need to be intentional. And when you are intentional, I think one thing that I find very important is you need to be able to, to, to shut down the noise.
00:11:34:07 - 00:11:57:22
Yeah. Because there's a lot of noise around. And a lot of times, especially if you are moving in the new country, everything is new, new culture, new systems, new processes, new way of communicating, new language, etc.. You need to allow yourself to fail. You need to allow yourself to, to to fall. Yeah. As long as you pick yourself up again and again and again.
00:11:58:02 - 00:12:18:06
So there is this element of reinvention working on your next version. There's the element of resilience. There is the element of, insistence and persistence. I'm going to I'm going to keep heading to my goal, to my target. And no one said it's going to be, easy. But if it were, it was easy. Everyone would have done it.
00:12:18:08 - 00:12:49:04
Quite simple. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And you should be fine with that. I think the other element with moving in a new country that I find very interesting is, You one thing that really, really, I feel helped my journey and made me love the this country that I am here in the UK. Even more is the fact that I, I did not come in with my Greek mentality and try to implement it here.
00:12:49:06 - 00:13:17:19
I walked in with an element of curiosity, of truly understanding, okay, how a small island in the map really managed to make the entire world speak their language. Yeah, and it's something I have said that to a lot of people that they know me well, that there is this kind of true admiration of how a country like the UK managed to be the UK across the centuries and truly dominate the world.
00:13:17:19 - 00:13:44:16
Yeah, either it's politics or strategy or diplomacy or or so it's, when you come in with this mindset of curiosity, trying to really understand the culture, try to really understand how the British are thinking, what makes them successful, how do they operate, what are the manners? I was very impressed of the manners. Okay, I think you are setting yourself up for success.
00:13:44:16 - 00:14:12:03
Yeah. Versus trying to be in your own bubble. Replicate what you already know in an environment and vice versa, right? If I were to take what I'm doing here and try to put them in an environment like Greece, 99.9%, I wouldn't have been successful because it operates on a different system. Yeah. And that's a really important thing to mention is the systems, because you've got you talked about the UK being, you know, Great Britain and it is a great country and I love, love the UK.
00:14:12:03 - 00:14:32:04
But there's also lots of people at the moment as this is recorded leaving the UK right to go to other, other places. I agree. And the people that have success in those other places tend to work to the systems in those, those countries, rather than just purely and taking up what they've they've done in one country and moving it to another.
00:14:32:04 - 00:14:55:01
It doesn't tend to work like that. Yeah. Even though I would say and we don't need to go that direction because this is more politics. But I would say the reason for the brain drain, let's say now that is happening more is more taxation. Yes. Rather than, I don't like the system. I don't like the culture. It's more what are the incentives you are giving me, to be to increase my quality of life here?
00:14:55:01 - 00:15:19:21
Right. I think that's another podcast. Yeah. That's another. That's another episode on its own. I'm not well qualified to talk about that. I've got my opinions, but I'll keep them to myself for now. So we talked a bit about obviously your background more recently backed environments. Why is it that so many leaders want to get into, to PE firms into that environment?
00:15:19:22 - 00:15:41:23
Why do you think it's such, such a great place to be that people want to be in there? That's a good question. You know, I've spent the last few months actually being quite active in a lot of roundtable deals and networking events, meeting some of the most phenomenal people in the country and across the world. And they are all very much I agree with you.
00:15:41:23 - 00:16:06:19
There are very much interested in joining private equity backed business. I don't have the answer to this. Okay. I really don't. And many times I'm asking them and, I don't get a clear answer either. I think there's a hype in, in, in, in the awarding of it without truly understanding the implications. Yeah, but that's my take.
00:16:06:19 - 00:16:36:14
Not sure if it's correct. Yeah. Okay. The things that I have been quite fortunate in, what, if I may say, the fact that from the beginning I join the technology industry, I work for a private equity backed business, even though at that time I didn't know what these means. Yeah, I was quite junior, and starting myself, from, from not an executive roles source didn't have the, the, the exposure needed.
00:16:36:16 - 00:17:02:00
I was quite fortunate to understand. Okay. This is a different ball game, right? Yeah. It's pace. Yeah. Is precision is execution. And this period of time as well since 2022 and onwards is profitable growth. Yeah. So it's a completely it's it's, it's, you don't only manage the transformation, the growth, you're managing the velocity and the expectations of the investors.
00:17:02:05 - 00:17:22:02
So I don't know if the people they want to join the private equity backed businesses know that this is the level of of pace and scrutiny. They would, they would have to expect. That's really interesting because they people say they want to to go into this, this sort of sector, but they don't know why like that. That almost baffles me sometimes.
00:17:22:02 - 00:17:42:01
But then if it's because people see pound signs, dollar signs and think, okay, private equity could be exciting, could make a load of money on an exit, which is all these things are true, right? They're all possibilities. But it's not necessarily the sole reason to, to get into these sort of areas. So perhaps I'll ask you the question in a different way.
00:17:42:03 - 00:18:03:23
What do you like about it? Oh, I what I just said, because I am fast, the way I am as an individual, I love the fact that the fact that, first of all, I haven't work for a non private equity bank. Okay. So form, provider, which doesn't help to answer in a more holistic, nicely rounded way.
00:18:03:23 - 00:18:25:23
Your, your question. However what I like about I'm staying with the private equity. It's not that I just like it. I'm passionate about it. I actually did, a few months back, certificate at Imperial College. On on the private equity, sector. What I love about it is the fact that it is all about shareholder value.
00:18:26:01 - 00:18:56:08
It's all about and increasing the enterprise value of the business, which for me, it's it's the reason to exist. Yeah. Okay. If we cannot add value either by going to market better, selling more, becoming more sticky, have a customer that is not only buying from us, but is a loyal. So it keeps coming back to us, keeps opening door for us, etc. and if we don't do that in a way that is profitable in terms of our bottom line, then why do we exist?
00:18:56:09 - 00:19:21:14
Yeah. So for me, it goes back to the principles of and the preneur soup and and and business existence. And especially in the private equity. What I love is that there's zero room for theatrics. Yeah. Which is how I am. I'm quite direct. Yeah. I'm quite transparent. I always lead with radical transparency. Some environments like it, some others not, and that's fine.
00:19:21:15 - 00:19:47:02
Yeah. But I think in the private equity world, things are quite simple. Yeah. What you said is it is impact performance and ultimately shareholder value for everyone, for the shareholder, the investors, for the partners, for the employees, for everyone. And do you think that the the rest of the, the investment world or the business world even has woken up to that a little bit in recent years?
00:19:47:03 - 00:20:24:12
You talked about since at least it's 2022, right? It's about growth, profitability, rather than just growth, for the sake of growth, which I believe mostly the PE world has been based around profitability, right, about making money as a business want to make money, whereas the, the VC market and I appreciate you don't have direct experience working in this space, but my my experience working with people in this space is that it wasn't about making money straight away, that the plenty of businesses out there that were seen as high value businesses, but never made any money.
00:20:24:14 - 00:20:42:10
And is that something that now is is disappearing and you're seeing a trend of. I think so, yeah, I think I think, I think up to 20, 22, the transactions we're seeing in the market, they were all about multiples of, of revenue. Right. And and there are a lot of and we don't need to call the names.
00:20:42:10 - 00:21:07:13
There are a lot of tech businesses, out there. And they were, that they were not profitable for decades. But they were growing. And I think that, if I may call it bubble or that trend broke back in 2022, roughly mid 2022. And there were other, other things that happened during that period of time, like the semiconductor crisis, etc..
00:21:07:15 - 00:21:32:03
That really helped accelerate that shift into really asking the question, how solid are you as a business? Do you truly grow profitably? Do you really add value there? Not just by selling and spending, but by truly selling and scaling? So it's, it became a movement rather than a momentum. Yeah. Okay. And that's where things have changed.
00:21:32:03 - 00:21:53:03
And 100%. Yes. I want to talk a bit about your roles, if we can. And so you talked about being chief of staff in your role, which I think is a probably a misunderstood role. Certainly in the UK market, if you ask people, most people, what chief of staff does, they might think about politics or something like that in, in terms of the US.
00:21:53:06 - 00:22:13:20
And I know it's now been brought into some, you know, UK politics, you know, roles and organizations or parties I should say, rather than organizations. So tell us a bit more about that role, because I think people don't necessarily understand like what is the chief of staff do I think you are? You're correct Rupert, I think it is a misunderstood role.
00:22:13:22 - 00:22:44:15
So before I became into the staff again, I was in the crew organization. The sales organization where things are straightforward is black or white. You are the hero, are the zero. You hit the numbers, you grow your footprint, you increase the team. Success. And, and as such, you are impacting your top line, right. But what these roles, the go to markets, commercial strategy roles really taught me, they start building in me the cross-functional corporation type of muscle.
00:22:44:20 - 00:23:11:14
Right? Yeah. Because you have to work with the sales team, the revenue operations, your, your, marketing, etc.. When the, the chief of staff role came in, I remember it, since it was, as if it was yesterday, I was the probably the first, was the first, I would say, to the staff in the P, backed SAS world in the UK.
00:23:11:14 - 00:23:38:05
Yeah. So I got the role in 2021. There was no chief of staff in the industry in the UK. And how I know that I knew that because I was getting phone calls from recruiters saying to me what you just said. Yeah, thi what what is this role? Is this like a glorified EA role? Yeah. We only see in the white House.
00:23:38:06 - 00:23:59:16
Yeah. Like in the US, the the role was already popular. It was it was getting popularity across the tech world. It just took a few years to, to come to the, to the, to Europe and especially in the UK market. So what is the chief of staff role. So the chief of staff role. It's it's not an admin role.
00:23:59:16 - 00:24:21:04
Yeah. It's definitely not not an admin role. Not a glorified EA role. And if it's a glorified a this is another all you want to be. Yeah. It's a role where you are the right hand of the CEO. I'm talking about the CEO. Chief of staff. Okay? Which is what I've done. You're the right hand of the CEO.
00:24:21:04 - 00:24:51:00
So you're sitting in the engine room running all the critical initiatives and programs for that office. Yeah. And you are the person that is structuring the office of the CEO that has multiple dimensions and a lot of complexity as well. You are the person that navigates the the relationships with the board of directors, the board of advisors, the investors, the executive team, what your CEO wants.
00:24:51:00 - 00:25:12:18
So you are advocating their agenda. So there's always a loyalty associated with that role. Usually is the number one role that you will be fired if your CEO is fired. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're a team. Yeah, you are. You are the right hand. There is always an association of who you support. Yeah. And now when you do this role, there are two archetypes.
00:25:13:00 - 00:25:44:07
There is the archetype of I want to be a chief of staff. I'm comfortable being a chief of staff, which means I don't have a direct team. Direct authority. Your currency is influence and trust. Yeah. Or I see this role as a fast track acceleration in my career. To get exposure three six in the organization. That will take me to the next level, which is a C-suite role.
00:25:44:07 - 00:26:04:23
Yeah. And from the two archetypes, both of them are fine. It depends. If you want to be a professional chief of staff or you want to. You see that as your basically your leadership lab. Yeah. And I think I know the answer to this question, but which one of you I was the second. There's always the second. But my CEO, the person who promoted me to that role so saw me as the second.
00:26:04:23 - 00:26:25:16
Yeah. Okay. So the reason I'm remembering it as if it was yesterday, when my boss came in, he said, listen, you know, nothing outside the office of the CRO. Yeah. The only thing you know from your life is sales. So how about you take this role and you get exposed to the business and you grow yourself? That's reinvention 3.0.
00:26:25:16 - 00:26:58:22
No, no, no, I we keep it we. Yeah yeah we evolve. Evolve. So 3.0 you take that role and you get really exposed to to the rest of the organization. You get exposed to no board dynamics. The executive team, complexity and power where there's complexities. Confidential, super confidential program programs and projects, things that cannot like your confidentiality and the level of confidentiality in this role is critical.
00:26:58:22 - 00:27:32:02
Yeah. And we take it from there. And this is how I evolve into that with with a view to get get that exposure, understand what it is to be outside the office of the CRO, understand what it means. Well, being in for instance, doing R&D, new tech, professional services, what does it mean? Customer sentiment, like, things are a bit further out from the direct running the numbers, bookings, of the CRO and stay there for at least two and a half, three years.
00:27:32:04 - 00:28:03:01
Nice and strong. Use it as an education. Right to understand. And that's 100%. Especially in the private equity world, this role is even more imperative. Yeah, because it's the person that is is acting as the glue as well. It's similar to transformation and not so similar, but there are some elements that they are. They are quite similar, as the glue between what your board or your, shareholders want to see versus what your CEO wants to do versus what the executive team can do.
00:28:03:01 - 00:28:28:15
Yeah. So again, your currencies is trust is influence. You you don't have direct teams. So your influence to drive that kind of the behavior you want to see is critical. That's why whoever has the role needs to be highly diplomatic and understand that sometimes you don't need to share everything you hear. You have to keep some things for yourself, because that is not helping the people that you are supporting so, so slightly.
00:28:28:15 - 00:28:44:13
So you need to have 100%. Yeah, you need to have critical mindset like a very critical mind on the information you're getting. And so not everyone is going to be in a position where they've got a great CEO who actually says, you know, this is the position I think you need to move into to to get ahead. I know where you're going.
00:28:44:13 - 00:29:00:22
I can see the path you're on. I want to help you get there faster. So how would you suggest the other people, perhaps listening to this who are thinking, actually, I want to be that that type B type person like you want to get ahead, want to get more, you know, further into the room, into other potential C-suite roles.
00:29:00:23 - 00:29:23:10
How do they engineer that move into, chief of staff as a as a role if you fell for it? Yeah, it just ask for it. Ask for it. Yeah. Build the job description you on. Do your research. You you're never go unprepared. And you never do your research. Build the job description. You wan understand the areas that you will bring value to.
00:29:23:11 - 00:29:48:00
What are the why you yeah. Right. Versus someone else. Understand the areas that you need to be exposed as well to, to grow and further evolve and build the relationship so that someone I think because of the sensitivity of the role trust, I keep coming back to trust. That's why a lot of times you see the chief of stuff's evolving from within the business because people know them for a year or two.
00:29:48:00 - 00:30:07:07
So they know who they are, they know the values they operate. I think your values really dictate if you're going to be a successful chief of staff. So if I had to say something is there is a chance you'll learn in chief of staff role from the outside in, but you will be even more empowered and enabled if you come from the from the inside.
00:30:07:07 - 00:30:25:12
So built. Built what you want to ask and ask for it, I love it. That's so true for yourself. It's all about branding, right? Personal branding, positioning yourself. You are a doer. You can execute. You are the fixer because ultimately this one is a behind the scenes fixer. How do you do that? Yeah. No showcase. And you've got to do it.
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:47:14
Ultimately that's fun. You have to do it. And now you've then transitioned into a transformation role as CTO. Since that that role of chief of staff. So you're still on that, that path and that, that your ever, ever growing journey and, and lessons that you're learning along the way. A lot of people think that transformation is all about, you know, strategy.
00:30:47:14 - 00:30:55:16
You know, lots of decks, big ideas, that sort of stuff like what's what's the truth?
00:30:55:17 - 00:31:23:14
I think like the chief of staff transformation is a misunderstood role as well. But it depends who you speak to. You may speak to chief transformation officers, and they only thing they've done is interim roles. So in that case, they're all about coming in, fixing things, make sure they leave behind a legacy, the foundation for the business to operate and leave.
00:31:23:15 - 00:31:50:15
That's quite common, isn't it? Which is quite common. It's quite common. My experience, I have they're all the last two and a half years, as a chief strategy officer and then chief, transformation officer and operations, officer is that this is not especially if it's a permanent role within the organization. It's not an internal consulting function.
00:31:50:15 - 00:32:19:03
Yep. And if you are building an internal consulting function, either you are very big a billion plus, or you're billing it wrong. Yeah. Why? Because transformation is all about building the sustainable foundation for growth. Going back to what we said and what does a private equity world wants, which is the profitable growth it's all about? How do you futureproof the organization to support that level.
00:32:19:05 - 00:32:42:23
So let's say we have a business that grows 20, 25% year over year with a bottom line, 30, 35% year over year. So how can you keep growing at that level? Because that's the predicament, a transformation officer is in because they need to sustain that growth. But the more you grow the default, the more difficult it becomes. The foundations are not the same.
00:32:42:23 - 00:33:02:10
So if you are 100 million, 150 million, it takes a transformation to get to 350. Yeah, it takes a different transformation to get you to 550 and different want to get you to 801 billion. So by the time you are 100 mil, 150 to 1 billion, you need for different types of transformations. And you need four different types of transformation.
00:33:02:10 - 00:33:24:19
Officer or not necessarily depends of who you have hired. Yeah, but the point I'm making is this is not internal consulting role is not just beautiful. Dax needs to have whatever you build in terms of vision and strategy with your CEO, because ultimately you are the CEO. That's a similarity with the chief of staff. But the chief transformation officer doesn't exist without the CEO.
00:33:24:20 - 00:33:47:20
Yeah. Buying. Right. So whatever you build in terms of executing their vision needs to be paired with operational realism. It's not just beautiful slides. It needs to be how what do we how do we make the impact. By what? Yeah. So what are we doing in terms of programs. How are we wiring rewiring the belief of our people?
00:33:47:21 - 00:34:11:11
Because everything starts from the people. How do we remove any resistance? There's always resistance. So how do you remove the resistance? Yeah. And ultimately when do we expect this impact we're making to hit the PNL. And how do you do that with the resistance? Because that's the biggest, biggest change. I speak to a lot of people, and as you say, people are the biggest asset, but they can also be the biggest problems.
00:34:11:11 - 00:34:37:19
And especially when you're going through change, it can be a real challenge because that that people, that humans at the end of it. So you've got to try and nurture them through it. So how do you manage that? For sure it is the most challenging element. I never see people as a problem. I see if I don't, if I'm not able as a leader to help you see the why.
00:34:37:20 - 00:34:55:21
And that's why I always lead with a power of why I. I love Simon Sinek and I was given his book one day and I just fell in love. And since then, I give this book to everyone in my teams when they start working with me. Because I cannot ask you to change if you don't understand the why, what's in it for you?
00:34:55:23 - 00:35:18:19
How what you will be changing will benefit yourself, your teams, your business, right? The businesses in general. How we are part of the same journey, how we're part of the same boat. So I don't I've never seen people as a problem. I've seen me the way I position things, either the resonate or not. If they don't resonate, I need to change my way.
00:35:18:21 - 00:35:41:14
If they do resonate, I double down on that and continue like that. Yeah, so it's all about being able to articulate the why, why we're asking to change. That's part one of resistance. Number two, what's in it for them? Yeah. All right. And number three, share the vision. You always go back to your vision. Everyone wants to be part of a successful story.
00:35:41:17 - 00:36:00:10
Yeah, everyone wants to be part of that I there's personal professional. I there's your friends, your family, your colleagues. No one will doubt your ability to get things done once you've proven this. So they want to be part of that story. I find this fascinating because it almost feels full circle. That's a lot of those things you're talking about.
00:36:00:12 - 00:36:21:17
Like sales 101. If you're thinking about your your original background, it's sales, right? You're telling the story in it is sales is influence. So I think that's why I didn't I didn't pursue this role. It came to me. Yeah. But I love it. And I love it because it blends all the things that I've done in my lives up to this day.
00:36:21:19 - 00:36:44:22
It is sales, because you need to sell the vision of your CEO together with your CEO. You need to sell the why, why some things have to change, why some things brought us here, but not necessarily take us further. And it is it is execution. So you still need to fix things, but you're not a behind the scenes fixer like a chief of staff.
00:36:45:00 - 00:37:11:04
You are front stage. Yep. And one thing that I always say is that you need to be comfortable by being uncomfortable. If you are hiring into a transformation officer and you expect not to receive and I'm happy, call, then for sure you have hired the wrong transformation officer. Yeah, because there is no such thing that you transform a business at its core.
00:37:11:04 - 00:37:37:22
You're rewiring beliefs. Your ego are in behaviors and not make people unhappy. At some point. Yes, you're gonna always make some people unhappy. So as a CEO, if you haven't received the unhappy call, then you need to ask yourself, have I had the right person or do they focus on the right things? Yeah. Okay. So it's really making sure that you're just again, doubling down on focusing on what's important.
00:37:37:22 - 00:38:02:06
Right. For for this transformation. That's what's going to help move it forwards, change the needle to get to that desired outcome of whatever it might be. And I think there are two things that may to two behaviors that really make this role successful. Or it's a mission impossible. Number one, would you don't have it as a chief of staff because it's it's given as a transformation officer.
00:38:02:06 - 00:38:27:04
You need CEO visible sponsorship. Yeah. And I think this is something we see in private equity where the fond and the private equity loves you. And they put you in that role. They, they promote you in a few portfolio businesses. And you know, not necessarily have the understanding of what your role is about who you are from the CEO aspect.
00:38:27:06 - 00:38:50:00
So having the visible sponsorship of the CEO, where they're backing you to make change happen, promote the programs you have to promote, focus on the things that matter to them. Yeah. So you kind of be successful for them and for the business. This is critical. And the second one is especially if you're coming from a chief of staff, evolution like I am.
00:38:50:06 - 00:39:14:02
So now we are already 4.0. You need to rebrand yourself. Yeah. You're not the buck. But behind the scenes fixer, you're front stage. You will have a team. Probably you have integration, semen M&A team, some operations team. Depending on what is your your trajectory. You have a team, you may have a budget. You don't have a budget.
00:39:14:02 - 00:39:41:01
So you have a budget automation officer. And then you rebrand yourself with the executive team. You are the peer now you are a peer. Yeah. So this is a different narrative. And usually it's a different everybody from you to them run the other way around. Nice. Well I want to change a bit of the direction of travel that we've been talking about because as we mentioned, you do a lot of charitable work you have done for, for many years.
00:39:41:03 - 00:39:55:18
And you're involved with a charity called Small Train. We do a lot of work over in Ghana. So I'd like to talk a bit about bit about that, because I think there's some really interesting, interesting points and certainly some things that most people won't know about. I certainly didn't know about any of it until we started talking.
00:39:55:18 - 00:40:15:16
So first of all, tell us a bit more about Small Train. What do they do and how are you involved? I am, I am a supporter of Small Train. I'm not, I'm not part of the board or something. I am just a donor and supporter. But, I find that smile train, a purpose that it took.
00:40:15:18 - 00:40:45:12
I was looking for for a while. Small train is a is, originally, a New York based charity. So American charity, they have, an office here in the UK. And, they do more than 20 million surgeries across the world the last, for the last few years. And they are providing health care access and do the surgeries for, adults and kids that suffer from cleft condition.
00:40:45:14 - 00:41:07:07
And I didn't know what cleft condition was. I very randomly. So in LinkedIn, a post from from Susie Schaefer, who is the CEO of Smile Train. One of mine and someone in my network had commented on it and just popped up on my wall and, apparently cleft. It's not only when your lip is tied to your nose is when the whole palate is missing.
00:41:07:07 - 00:41:30:22
Right? So when the whole palate is missing, it may take up to 20, 25 surgeries to, to to to fix this. Because if you're a baby, you cannot breastfeed. You can barely breathe. If you're an adult, you cannot talk. So it really does, especially in, in areas, that they are, deprived areas. It really it really stigmatizes you.
00:41:30:23 - 00:41:54:07
And what really resonated with me is the fact that it's 100% treatable. Okay. And but it's just not being treated on the most part. It's a lack of education and awareness, for sure. But it's like of healthcare access is okay. So being able to provide that healthcare access, which is what small train is doing. So small train do both.
00:41:54:09 - 00:42:21:01
They do train the nurses and the doctors to, to conduct surgeries. They do provide. So they do provide that kind of, health care access via some centers. They are working with local governments to build, like the one we inaugurated in Ghana back in, in June. And lastly, they are they are providing the education and the awareness to the rest of us here in the world to understand that this is happening.
00:42:21:03 - 00:42:50:01
This is in 2025 and 100% treatable. And it's for a very small cost. Yeah. Comparing to to the cost of living, especially here in the UK, that, every, every, every penny matters, right? And can make a difference. So this is how I, I came across small train. Okay. I believe because it's one of those things that again, you're pretty quite sheltered to most people won't know anything about this is being a problem because, you know, it's a bit like you you'll have heard of.
00:42:50:01 - 00:43:10:13
Okay, what what is the cleft palate? What does that mean? People will probably know roughly what a what it means. You think it's cosmetic, right? I thought it was cosmetic. I didn't know that. It's an actual. It was an actual condition. Yeah. And even today, they don't know what triggered what. What's creating cleft if if it's genetic or not.
00:43:10:15 - 00:43:27:10
But one thing that really resonated with me is that, as you said in the beginning, I've been doing a lot of work with a lot of charts for many years since since I was a kid, to go with my family. But the older I get, the more I want to feel that the impact is becoming tangible.
00:43:27:16 - 00:43:47:03
I want to see it. I want to witness it. I really want to see how much I'm making impact into someone's life and a thing. With Small Train, I was able to get that sense of purpose because I was able to see, okay, this is a surgery, this how much it cost. This is this was the kid before and after.
00:43:47:04 - 00:44:20:01
Yeah. So you really have change human life, which is amazing, right? You guys, you get to see the. Yeah. The the the trail of how it all happens ultimately rather than you know, most people would give give some money. Don't think about it ever again. That's it. And that's the thing. Right. Because, I have supported a lot of, charities, which I don't want to call here, but you give, let's say, 20 pounds, 30 pounds per month, if you ask how many, how, how, how much money out of this ends up going to the to the kid, it's less than a pound and a half.
00:44:20:04 - 00:44:43:10
Yeah. Well, you say, aren't they these charities and and me as needing to and and just need to operate somehow. So yes, there will be administrative costs but again goes back to what I want to see now, the impact I want to make and I want to experience and I want to see it. So it really matters for me to to have that tangible, tangible effect, which I didn't get before.
00:44:43:15 - 00:45:01:09
And it strikes me, is that that's the kind of person you are, right. And in business as well. You want to see the impact. I want to see the impact. So that's what it's all about. It's a good point. And and what would you give us some advice then to someone perhaps we are looking at, elevating their career, maybe their sort of early phases, maybe their mid phases.
00:45:01:09 - 00:45:21:06
I don't know what's the one bit of advice that you would give someone to to try and really get themselves push themselves forward, to elevate their career? If they're thinking, I want to do something different. Number one, be clear what you want. Shut down the noise. Once you are clear what you want. Number two. Number three.
00:45:21:06 - 00:45:44:16
Don't take things personally. I think this is where, as all of us have, experience in the beginning of our career where we were a bit too emotionally invested on situations and people don't think specifically. You'll fall. Pick up again. Keep going. Yeah. Keep learning, keep learning, keep going, keep evolving. And the thing is, the market does evolve.
00:45:44:18 - 00:45:54:00
The industry doesn't. All today's AI tomorrow will be something else right. So it's it's it's all about how you becoming that resilient on this
00:45:54:00 - 00:45:54:03
it?
00:45:54:03 - 00:46:04:00
And thank you very much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Really, really fascinating talking to you. I'm sure lots of people are going to learn lots from this. So yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here.
00:46:04:00 - 00:46:29:00
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