A digital union based on EU values with Ivana Bartoletti

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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome at this episode of "Feb's Talks,"
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the podcast of the Foundation for European Progressive
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Studies.
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We are a think tank in Brussels.
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My name is Gerard Oosterwijk.
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I'm the digital policy analyst of FEBS,
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so dealing with everything in the digital domain.
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And today, we have with us a great guest,
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the author of our book, "The Primer," a digital union based
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on European values, Ivana Bartoletti.
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Ivana, welcome today at this episode of "Feb's Talks."
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I'll introduce you, and then we start the conversation.
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Ivana is a leader in the field of privacy, data protection,
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and responsible technology.
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Also an expert on AI and gender rights
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for the Council of Europe and the Cyber Security
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and Privacy Executive Fellow at Virginia Tech.
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And you work at the FIFPRO as the privacy officer.
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Ivana, welcome.
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So today, we will discuss a little bit your book
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that you wrote so people can read up on everything
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that we discussed today in the primer.
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But let me start with a more personal question,
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because digital policy, it's an interesting field.
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It's a very specific field.
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But what led to your interest in this field?
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How did you end up to be an expert in digital policy?
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Because that's always interesting to learn.
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Well, thank you.
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So first, it's great to be with you.
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Well, my journey to this was quite simple, to be honest.
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It comes from my interest in digital policy
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stems from politics, really, in the sense
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that I've always been interested and involved
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when I was in younger age in politics.
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And then you realize that there is nothing more political
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and related to not only politics, but geopolitics,
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than data, technology, innovation.
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And I also have a feminist background.
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So I got into the field of privacy law specifically,
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because to me, privacy is very much related to a quality.
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So my background stems from there.
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And then, of course, I added a lot of other stuff,
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including the information security.
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And so it's really working at the intersection
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between the law, technology, in both academia,
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but also as the global chief privacy and governance
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for a company of 250,000 people delivering services in IT.
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So I think all these things together,
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they all stem from an interest in what technology is,
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and in particular, artificial intelligence
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in recent times, which is, for me, far more than the technologies,
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because it has to do with so many things,
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from geopolitics to also the way that we want to imagine
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the world moving forward.
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And is that also why you put value, César,
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because the name of the book that you wrote for us,
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a digital union based on European values,
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is that also why values for you are central in your work?
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Well, they are important, because we are at a watershed moment
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in the relationship between humanity and technology.
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And we really have to decide what a wall is technology for,
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what is technology for.
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And in Europe, and we'll talk about it,
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but in Europe, there is a big drive,
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which I completely supported to ensure that the way that we
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develop market technologies, and in particular,
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when it comes to the most disruptive ones,
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they are in line with the values that bind us together as Europeans.
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Yeah, and I think that's a challenge, right?
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So how do we get to a value-based digital system?
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And there's always values involved,
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and there's a certain dominant system,
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I think that we can discuss a bit later as well.
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I read, of course, the book with a lot of interest,
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and it's interesting how you start a little bit with the history,
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the history also of the internet.
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It's not a very old history, it's not very long,
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but still I think it's very good to also look a bit back.
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So how do you see that?
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Like, so how do you see the history of the internet,
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and where did it bring us already in this short period?
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Yeah, I mean, it's interesting,
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I mean, some people say, for example,
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artificial intelligence is such a new thing, which is not.
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I mean, the big change in recent years
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has been around the computing capacity,
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and at the same time, the great availability of data,
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which underpins a lot of sort of the digital capitalism
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as we know it.
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But I, so I went through in the book a little bit
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through sort of what happens from the creation to the web until now.
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And in recent years, especially as we said,
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for computing powers, the huge availability of data,
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we have seen a lot of innovation.
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And when it comes, for example, to artificial intelligence
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over the last couple of years,
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we have seen the explosion of generative AI
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and with the products coming into the market on a daily basis.
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And I think it's important to drive a couple of insights
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from this journey over the last few years.
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So first of all, to me, it's really important to realise
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that technology is never neutral, right?
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So every technological tool is a sociotechnical tool
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that in reality reflects the intention of the creator.
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And this applies to all technological developments
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and underscores that the importance for our policy
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makers to guide this deployment.
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So to me, this is the first point.
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So it's the role of policy that I wanted to look into.
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And we have seen that what happens when the role of policy
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is not there.
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So for example, if you think about the internet
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and how it was created as a space for democracy,
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as a space of solidarity, as a space where people from all
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over the world could get together,
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well, we have gone quite away from that.
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Now we know it's a space of disinformation.
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It's a space of harm for too many, especially the most
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vulnerable.
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And this is a great lesson that we have to learn from the past.
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And the reason why you went through all the histories
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is to say exactly this, that these technologies, they
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need to be governed.
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And to me, there is really no dichotomy
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between regulation and innovation,
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as many of us, many people would want to make us believe.
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No, and it's also interesting, because you also then
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go into the assessment of the European approach.
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Because I think if there is something that has been happening
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in recent times, there has been a lot of European legislation.
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Talk about the Brussels effect, the idea of competition
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as well, where there's also a lot of discussion.
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Is there still competition in these digital markets?
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How do you see it?
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Was it a big success so far of Europe?
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Or is it one thing that we should be proud of as the EU,
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as Europeans?
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Well, so first of all, we have to bring a little bit of clarity,
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because there are two big misconceptions.
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So the first misconception here is
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that the regulation has been struggling the European Union
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so far.
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And the reason why we don't have Google,
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we don't have Alibaba, we don't have Amazon in Europe
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is because of regulation.
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Now, this is too simplistic.
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And I really challenge this in the book
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and encourage everyone to really try and understand
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that this is too simplistic.
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And the reason this is simplistic
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is because the reason why the European Union is,
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to an extent, lagging behind in the big players,
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but in the ownership, more widely in the ownership
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of large enterprises in the technological sector,
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is because of reasons that go wide beyond that,
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including, for example, the intersection
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between private and public sector,
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the role of government in pushing for national infrastructure,
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the role of venture capitalism in the US,
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and the ability of private sector
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to take on much more risks that have been elements that
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have been very strong in the US.
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And we haven't had this strong in Europe.
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But we can't be the US, so we can't
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be a copy of the United States.
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But at the same time, if we look at Europe as it is now,
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we have to say that private investment in the research
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and development, for example, in Europe stands quite tall.
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If you look, for example, in 2023,
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the investment in research and development in the US
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was $100 million, and the research and investment in Europe
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was $110 million.
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So yes, of course, it's not the same,
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and arguably the US is bigger.
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But the investment has been there.
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And recently, there's been a lot of action
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by the European Union in putting together
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a series of measures to boost innovation,
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even in the areas which are more disruptive,
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and not just the middle sector.
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So we have to challenge, I feel, a little bit
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these misconceptions.
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And most importantly to me--
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and I come to the next step--
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and is to decide where we want to go.
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Because I mean, I always feel everybody says, OK,
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a lot of people say, oh, Europe, we lack behind.
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And I challenge that a little bit.
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Yes, we lack behind in some areas.
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And I'm not blind to that.
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I mean, I am not blind to the fact
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that we don't have the big companies,
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or that private investment in the US
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has reached much more in the US than in the EU.
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I'm not blind to that.
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Nevertheless, as I said, we do have investment
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in research and development.
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We do have a new investment in startups and new technologies.
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We don't limit that I cover in the book in great details
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and suggestions on how we could fix those limits.
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But the most important thing that I
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want to drive through this book is the strategy moving forward.
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And what it means to be lagging behind or to outperforming
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the US in the context of the global scenario
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between the United States and China.
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And what does it mean if it's not the money,
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if it's not the investment?
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And of course, this is also with nuance,
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because there is more investment, I think, in the US,
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or in the past, there was more investment,
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and also maybe more strategy.
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Because we had also the DARPA and there is clearly a link,
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I think, also with the developments,
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Matsukato to prove this as well with the iPhone.
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How much of this is coming from the investment in the defense
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sector and also in developing tools
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with the military construct in the US, which
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can also be a link now again with Europe, like really
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the Defense Union and everything around that,
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or cybersecurity.
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I think there's more, I think, more also
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grounds for more public investments, perhaps in this field
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as well, and more mission-driven investment from the EU.
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But funding alone, and I agree with that,
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we have also strong companies in other traditional sectors,
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more legacy companies, big industry complexes,
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that were and are investing a lot in technology and innovation.
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But how do we channel that?
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And what is then blocking as well,
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because we're lacking behind not because of the money,
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or partly because of the money, but what is it then to you?
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Like why is it then the dominance of the big tech
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companies?
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Is there a market failure, or how do you see that?
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That's a very complex question.
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But first of all, let's just put the building blocks here.
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So first of all, there is a robust trajectory
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over the last few years of research and development.
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So as we said before, that is there.
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But there is an issue here, which you mentioned,
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which is that when we start to look at the specific sectors,
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the European Union seems to remain entrenched in the mid-tier
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technology specialization.
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So we don't have, I think, sufficiently pivoted
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towards the software research and development.
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So I do think that we do have to have a better strategy
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for investment, more strategy of investment
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in groundbreaking and disruptive technologies,
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more strategy, better investment, for example,
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incentives for companies to take more risks than what they do
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now.
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The other trend that I think is important
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that pertains to regulation.
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With Europe emerging as the world's almost regulator,
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and in the current global climate,
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I don't think this is a disadvantage.
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I mean, if you think about what is happening in California
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with the latest California safety
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bill on artificial intelligence, which
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is very different from the new approach
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for artificial intelligence, which
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I have some serious concerns about.
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But it will spur, I believe, a huge variety of investment
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in responsible and safety-related innovation
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in California, which is good because, again, that
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puts us in an alignment with the partner as the US
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in artificial intelligence, which is safe, robust,
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and human-centric.
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Why am I saying this?
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Because I think it's important to understand that, yes,
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we may not have the large technology company.
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And I'm not one who believes that it's
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necessarily the priority for us to have the next Google,
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or for us to have the next Twitter.
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To me, that is not the key point.
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The key point for me is to have strong research
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and development, investment in destructive technologies,
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support for the reform of the investment structure itself,
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which is still too political, which is still not
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quick and fast enough.
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But also, to me, a big priority for us in Europe
00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:30.600
is to invest in companies using artificial intelligence
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.760
and increasing and enhancing the productivity
00:14:33.760 --> 00:14:35.520
using artificial intelligence.
00:14:35.520 --> 00:14:37.880
Sometimes I even argue, it's really
00:14:37.880 --> 00:14:44.160
important to develop in Europe as enlightened business
00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:49.560
leadership of people who can lead companies
00:14:49.560 --> 00:14:52.360
and transform using artificial intelligence.
00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:55.800
The reason that the Eastern R&B company is a separate matter.
00:14:55.800 --> 00:15:02.120
It is very much related to competition.
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:06.120
It's very much related to a stifled market, which we have.
00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:10.160
The reason why in the US the next Google cannot come up
00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.640
is because it wouldn't be able to,
00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:17.000
because these companies are so big that they are acting
00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.080
as walled gardens.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.720
They define the rules of the game.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.200
So we are talking about very complex issues
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.200
of very different realms.
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.240
But I do believe that if we continue
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.120
to focus on the fact that Europe doesn't have Google
00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.360
or doesn't have Twitter or doesn't have Amazon or any
00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.240
other, I don't think we're focusing on the right thing.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.480
No, and I can--
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.040
And I get that this is also you focus on the reality,
00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:46.080
on the symptoms rather than on what actually has to be done,
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:49.160
or you don't have a roadmap just complaining about the situation
00:15:49.160 --> 00:15:50.160
or having the analysis.
00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.160
Because I think the analysis is shared and very clear.
00:15:53.160 --> 00:15:54.480
Like I think the analysis has been
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.640
done very thoroughly of the current situation
00:15:57.640 --> 00:15:59.960
with the big tech companies having a certain dominance,
00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:03.280
having a certain power, walled gardens, you mentioned it.
00:16:03.280 --> 00:16:06.560
But also just the firepower to invest
00:16:06.560 --> 00:16:08.320
and to keep their dominant role.
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.040
It's very hard for a new entrant to come in even now
00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:11.760
with the DMA.
00:16:11.760 --> 00:16:14.000
There are certain limits to what they can do
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.040
to do killer acquisitions and stuff like that.
00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:17.160
That's all of this.
00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:18.880
But then only on the European level,
00:16:18.880 --> 00:16:21.000
how do you do that then with US firms?
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.080
We don't have the power to control everything that's
00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:25.240
happening, and that also shouldn't be maybe also
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:26.480
the objective.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:28.000
So I really like as well what you said.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.000
We need a more positive approach also to AI and a bit more,
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:36.560
like searching also the strength or the reinvent perhaps
00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:39.000
European industry and European society.
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:40.640
Because why are you saying this?
00:16:40.640 --> 00:16:42.760
This is because you think and you believe that this AI
00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:44.000
development, it's coming.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:44.880
It's coming anyways.
00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:46.240
It's coming already now.
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.680
And we can discuss about everything
00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:50.160
around algorithmic management and AI in the workplace.
00:16:50.160 --> 00:16:53.160
Something that's something that we are also researching here
00:16:53.160 --> 00:16:53.880
at VAPS.
00:16:53.880 --> 00:16:55.760
But this is coming anyways.
00:16:55.760 --> 00:16:58.320
And now we need to find a way to make this
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.800
for the benefit of society and benefit of people.
00:17:00.800 --> 00:17:03.200
Again, what you said, the values and the politics in this,
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.720
because it's not neutral.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.960
Right now, the development is driven by certain really
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:13.760
like Silicon Valley surveillance capitalist models.
00:17:13.760 --> 00:17:16.960
The companies have a certain ideological drive,
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.680
and their leadership, and their billionaires behind.
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:26.680
Again, also to strengthen their dominant position.
00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:28.800
They already have or keep their dominant position
00:17:28.800 --> 00:17:30.600
in this new wave of development.
00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:32.960
So is there a way to do it differently?
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.800
And is there a way to work with maybe also the big firms we have?
00:17:36.800 --> 00:17:39.520
We still have big firms in traditional sectors,
00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:43.360
whether it's the car industry, the banks, the insurance.
00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:45.360
There are so many sectors that we are strong,
00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:46.840
and we have a lot of good universities.
00:17:46.840 --> 00:17:48.240
So is there a way to do this?
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.280
And do you have a vision also?
00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:51.880
Like something more, is it about capacity building,
00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:53.320
for example?
00:17:53.320 --> 00:17:56.000
Yeah, so I think you're totally right.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.800
So as I said, as we discussed,
00:17:59.800 --> 00:18:02.560
so the primary challenge here is defining the direction.
00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:05.320
So we have a direction, which is, yes,
00:18:05.320 --> 00:18:06.880
we want to protect consumers.
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:09.800
We want to uphold their values.
00:18:09.800 --> 00:18:14.200
We, in my view, we shouldn't see our future as saying
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:16.520
that we're striving to build the next Google
00:18:16.520 --> 00:18:23.400
or, but I think the, or for example, to,
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.800
but our goal should be to say that we are nurturing
00:18:25.800 --> 00:18:30.000
the generation of industry leaders who are proficient in AI,
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.200
the boost productivity and competitiveness in the industry,
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.880
in the real world applications of technologies.
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:40.640
And this is very important, as you say,
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.720
because we do have industries.
00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.320
We do have huge, important,
00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:51.920
hugely important, important universities across Europe.
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:53.840
Research and development is crucial.
00:18:53.840 --> 00:18:57.000
And that is where a lot of emphasis needs to go
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.840
in terms of reforming the way that we do research
00:18:59.840 --> 00:19:02.480
and development, the investing more,
00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.680
way beyond the 5% that we do at the moment,
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.280
in disruptive technologies such as quantum.
00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:11.480
So that is to me the strategy.
00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:16.440
So at the moment, the, from the banking sector
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:18.680
to all the other sectors, the automotive sector,
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:20.800
the automotive sector, it's really important
00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:26.080
that we invest in using and leveraging artificial intelligence
00:19:26.080 --> 00:19:27.960
in all these industries.
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.960
Therefore, we can improve competitive competitors.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.600
We can boost productivity and therefore,
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.400
we can be more competitive in the global scale.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.400
I don't wanna be fooled by this idea of competition
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.440
with the US, I really don't want to be fooled.
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.400
The priority to me is to be clear
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:46.800
about what is the role of public policy.
00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:48.800
And in Europe, of course,
00:19:48.800 --> 00:19:50.640
one of the key role of public policy
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:55.360
is to say that the digital dividends must be shared by everyone.
00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:57.600
And this is what makes us different.
00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:01.880
Now, we have a partnership with the United States
00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.280
and this is why the geopolitical matters so much
00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:10.480
when it comes to artificial intelligence and technology.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:11.640
As I said at the beginning,
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.120
we are at a watershed moment in the relationship
00:20:14.120 --> 00:20:16.600
between the humanity and technology.
00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:19.160
Artificial intelligence, think about chips,
00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.160
think about the importance that they have
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.240
on the military side, let alone the technology side.
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.720
It's really important to review technology
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.000
in this realm as well.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.800
I would like to see moving forward.
00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:36.240
Countries that are aligned on the role of technology
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:41.240
in bettering our life, increasing our well-being,
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:45.840
in a way that is not detrimental to privacy
00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:48.000
or human rights and the fundamental rights
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.000
that bind individuals together
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:56.160
to be aligned in developing safe, robust technologies.
00:20:57.520 --> 00:21:00.840
We can do this in Europe by investing
00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:02.760
in research and development,
00:21:02.760 --> 00:21:06.880
by boosting the wonderful universities that we have,
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.840
by investing in disruptive technologies,
00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:13.840
by changing the way that we run our investment programs
00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:18.320
in Europe, by encouraging more and more firms
00:21:18.320 --> 00:21:21.800
to boost the demand by using artificial intelligence
00:21:21.800 --> 00:21:23.160
and other products,
00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:26.320
by ensuring that people trust these technologies
00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:29.040
so they use them more and more
00:21:29.040 --> 00:21:30.840
because the more people use them,
00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:32.760
the more we generate the map.
00:21:32.760 --> 00:21:35.280
This is very, very important.
00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:39.880
So let's not just focus on how do we outperform,
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.840
but let's focus on what are the key things
00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:45.880
that we need to do in the short and medium term
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:50.600
to ensure that we can drive more AI,
00:21:50.600 --> 00:21:53.560
more technology, more destructive technologies
00:21:53.560 --> 00:21:56.600
across all the technological realm
00:21:56.600 --> 00:21:58.880
in both adoption and development.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:02.040
- No, and I think so, it's interesting what you mentioned
00:22:02.040 --> 00:22:03.880
about the geopolitical aspect,
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.320
because like it's now also been already a few years
00:22:07.320 --> 00:22:09.880
that war is back on the European continent
00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:12.200
with the terrible conflict
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.440
and the terrible situation in Gaza in the Middle East
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.400
and the war actually also kind of a war
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:18.640
that's developing there.
00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:23.760
- The dynamics between Russia and China
00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:26.800
and North Korea even and Iran, the access of evil,
00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:28.400
I wouldn't call China access of evil,
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.080
but like, and then you yourself,
00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:31.520
you have a lot of experience in India,
00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:32.960
which is a totally different player
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.040
and also has a different role to play perhaps also
00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:36.400
on the global stage,
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.120
but the huge country with the huge potential,
00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:40.360
especially also in the digital realm,
00:22:40.360 --> 00:22:43.400
which is also there, we don't talk about that a lot,
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.400
and then the relationship between Europe and the US.
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.080
So I am wondering as well,
00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:51.480
because what we've seen now, like you said,
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.800
values, public policy, a bit more the public interest
00:22:54.800 --> 00:22:56.920
or the societal interest,
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.360
right now if you ask me, I've seen mostly in the digital
00:23:00.360 --> 00:23:01.760
and that's mostly the big platforms,
00:23:01.760 --> 00:23:03.360
but the big dominant players,
00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:06.360
and they are also behind now the main AI development
00:23:06.360 --> 00:23:08.080
of AI models because it's so costly
00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:11.600
and takes a lot of capacity and a lot of money.
00:23:11.600 --> 00:23:14.840
They are behind this and they are coming more from a really
00:23:14.840 --> 00:23:17.280
like a private, very private capitalist,
00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:19.800
hypercapitalist standpoint,
00:23:19.800 --> 00:23:21.720
which is not the European social model.
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.240
Again, like we are as FEPPS,
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:25.200
we are of course aligned with the progressives
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.720
and have a certain view on society,
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.560
which is also we're not against the markets
00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:32.200
or against capitalist and per se,
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.680
but we want to reform that in like you also very much mentioned
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:37.480
and is mentioned in your book,
00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.280
reform maybe like we want to reform capitalism
00:23:40.280 --> 00:23:41.280
to serve the people,
00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:43.400
we want to reform the digital tools to
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.880
or steer them in a direction that they benefit people
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:47.680
and not just the shareholders.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.680
And I see really attention between that,
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:51.560
between the reality that we are like,
00:23:51.560 --> 00:23:54.200
we need to keep afloat and need to protect ourselves
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:56.520
from the dangers outside.
00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:58.600
And at the same time, yeah,
00:23:58.600 --> 00:24:03.120
being aligned or being like our society is now,
00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:04.280
like I wouldn't say flooded,
00:24:04.280 --> 00:24:07.120
but like dominated like a lot of our digital life
00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.680
plays on certain platforms.
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:10.760
And I'm not only talking social media,
00:24:10.760 --> 00:24:13.040
it's also how Google works or how Amazon works
00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:15.600
and how they treat their workers, things like that.
00:24:15.600 --> 00:24:19.800
It's not in line and we need to align them.
00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:23.440
And you said a lot of like that we need to change this model.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:25.680
It still boils down if you ask me then
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.440
to also create European alternatives.
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.280
And I'm not just saying like competitors,
00:24:30.280 --> 00:24:32.960
like competition between the US,
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.920
but either we need to steer the current platforms
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.840
or make them also adhere to our values
00:24:38.840 --> 00:24:40.840
and to the European social model,
00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:43.600
or we should create alternatives next to it.
00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:45.280
I'm not saying ban all the other, no,
00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:47.440
but like you create something that,
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.400
you know, your school, like to name one example,
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:51.720
a Google school, do we really want Google
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.200
with their privacy approach and their way
00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:57.120
of taking our data, work with our kids?
00:24:57.120 --> 00:24:59.000
And then what I heard in the Netherlands
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:01.120
that like it's a big percentage of school
00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:03.120
are working with Chromebooks and Google
00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:05.240
because it's easy, but then they're locked in,
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:06.720
vendor lock in another problem.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.280
And then so it was cheap and easy to start it up,
00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:11.720
but then you're locked in and you cannot really change it.
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:13.560
Well, the data of our kids is being used
00:25:13.560 --> 00:25:16.000
to develop further education tools.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.880
It's for me a very big question Mark,
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.000
if that's what we want from a public sector perspective,
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.320
for example.
00:25:22.320 --> 00:25:23.640
So I don't know.
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.760
- Of course, I mean, of course, the issue is,
00:25:26.760 --> 00:25:31.440
the issue there is, and it's that these technologies,
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:36.080
they've taken us by convenience most of the worst cases, right?
00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:40.400
They have surged to a role of being public utilities.
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:45.200
During the pandemic, we have seen this in for stride.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.000
So we had everything, if you look,
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.040
if you remember the sort of the contract tracing apps
00:25:51.040 --> 00:25:54.520
they were delivered by these large tech companies.
00:25:54.520 --> 00:25:57.160
Our food was delivered by Amazon at home.
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.200
So these companies, they have,
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.320
and it becomes the one who set the rules of the game.
00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:04.920
Now the whole world is recognized
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:06.880
and this is a problem.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.920
The United States is recognized and this is a problem.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.240
China is recognized and this is a problem.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:17.520
And in Europe, we know that this is a problem.
00:26:17.520 --> 00:26:19.960
We are trying with the Digital Services Act,
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:22.400
with the Digital Markets Act, with the Data Governance Act.
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.400
The whole package aimed to try and curb this power.
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:33.600
They have become regulators themselves.
00:26:33.600 --> 00:26:36.600
So for example, if you ask me about privacy,
00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:37.960
I mean, in most cases,
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:40.200
they've been setting some of the rules up.
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.560
No regulation.
00:26:44.560 --> 00:26:47.320
We've seen what it brought to the finance sector
00:26:47.320 --> 00:26:48.440
with the financial crisis.
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:49.640
There's some time already,
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.000
but the self-regulation is not always the best.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.200
And I think it's clear to everyone
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.040
that we do not want to repeat the same mistake
00:26:57.040 --> 00:26:58.880
that we made with the internet,
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.080
where everything has grown wild
00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:04.000
and the internet has completely changed
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.200
from a role of peace to a role of harm.
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:12.320
So without regulation, obviously, we can't go anywhere on this.
00:27:12.320 --> 00:27:17.280
So to me, I do believe in the role of regulation in this space.
00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:20.800
In the US, they call it antitrust.
00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:26.280
Of course, the role of competition law is very different
00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:28.880
from, for example, privacy law.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:30.600
Privacy law is a human rights competition.
00:27:30.600 --> 00:27:32.280
It's about the function of the market.
00:27:32.280 --> 00:27:35.520
But these two things are more and more entrenched.
00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:40.000
So I don't think we really need to think about competition law
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.360
and we really need to think about how we curb the power
00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:44.240
of these companies.
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:48.760
And you can see what is happening now when Europe tries
00:27:48.760 --> 00:27:51.280
and says, well, actually, this company,
00:27:51.280 --> 00:27:54.800
you need to open up, you need to let users,
00:27:54.800 --> 00:27:57.240
for example, use other apps too, not just yours.
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.240
So this is important.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.640
But there was also other space to create alternatives,
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.760
as you say, and also to empower citizens to have a voice
00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:10.520
and to have a say in the way that we use this development
00:28:10.520 --> 00:28:11.800
and we use this technology.
00:28:11.800 --> 00:28:14.600
So I mean, the way that, for example,
00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:20.400
the way that, for example, we use, we create our smart cities,
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.880
the way, for example, that we leverage data, the way that we--
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:28.040
but it's also very important to understand that, for example,
00:28:28.040 --> 00:28:29.600
when it comes to the leveraging of data,
00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.240
you mentioned Google and privacy, right?
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.200
Yes, but at the same time, we need
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:39.640
to rethink the role of privacy as well.
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:43.120
Because we live in a context where,
00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:45.320
whether it is because of convenience,
00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:51.040
whether you think because it's easy, people are quite happy--
00:28:51.040 --> 00:28:54.400
I'm not saying that they're OK with it.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:59.600
They're quite happy to give up personal data
00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:02.120
in return of something else.
00:29:02.120 --> 00:29:08.080
I'm not saying that they do it because there's no alternative.
00:29:08.080 --> 00:29:09.360
They would do it.
00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:10.680
They accepted it.
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:11.680
That's the practice now.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:12.640
That's the common practice.
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:13.560
Everybody accepted it.
00:29:13.560 --> 00:29:15.520
And now, like, there was also, I think, also,
00:29:15.520 --> 00:29:18.640
it was the commission that didn't agree with this pay
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.640
for consent or was it?
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.520
We didn't agree with it, and that's correct.
00:29:22.520 --> 00:29:26.120
But I also don't see everybody flooding to pay for Facebook
00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:26.640
from now on.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.080
No, but there's something else.
00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:29.480
There's something else.
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.920
I would like, for example, to rethink in Europe
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:37.160
entirely the consent model for two reasons.
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.080
First, because the way that we view privacy at the moment
00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:42.320
is detrimental to the most vulnerable.
00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:45.360
The collection of data happens mostly
00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:48.920
around the most vulnerable in our societies.
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:50.840
Privacy is becoming a luxury.
00:29:50.840 --> 00:29:54.080
So if we don't see privacy as related to equality,
00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:55.080
we are going nowhere.
00:29:55.080 --> 00:29:58.240
We will continue to see privacy as this horrible,
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.360
tricksy privacy noticed that nobody reads.
00:30:01.360 --> 00:30:03.240
And they only see it as something that
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:08.720
stops you from having an enjoyable experience on the web.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.480
And second thing, the consent model is not equal, again,
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.320
because this is related to competition,
00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:18.040
because it is related to the way the privacy is presented
00:30:18.040 --> 00:30:18.800
to people.
00:30:18.800 --> 00:30:22.360
So what am I trying to say here?
00:30:22.360 --> 00:30:27.120
That we need to think about a way in Europe
00:30:27.120 --> 00:30:30.640
where we look at privacy and data as a common good.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.440
That we, as Europeans, we change.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:35.960
The fact that privacy law is based on the concept
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.960
that you cannot share data unless you have a basis for doing
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:40.640
so is flooded.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.960
It's completely flooded.
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.280
My view is that data should be seen as a public good in Europe
00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:51.000
that we want to administer in Europe, not because of sovereignty
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.480
as nationalism, but sovereignty as the ability
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:56.800
to stand tall in a global competition
00:30:56.800 --> 00:31:01.720
by creating trust and safety within our own place.
00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:05.480
So the idea that we use data, we leverage data within Europe
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:10.480
with our citizens, with people in our cities, in our schools.
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.400
And this is where innovation can happen.
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:15.280
This is where innovation can happen.
00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:19.160
I don't think we should only focus on, I don't want to be tech.
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.320
But we should focus in how can we create alternatives
00:31:23.320 --> 00:31:26.600
and ways of using even these applications in a way
00:31:26.600 --> 00:31:31.560
that is better for us and in a way that really cherishes data
00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:35.160
as a public good that we have in the European Union.
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:36.200
I think it's very interesting.
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.680
And I think we could talk also for hours about this
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:42.200
because there are some hooks already now in the legislation.
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.080
You mentioned also the Data Act and the Data Governance Act.
00:31:45.080 --> 00:31:48.920
When it comes to data spaces, data intermediation,
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.160
and to split the data from the platforms,
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:54.640
it's a direction that's being developed right now as well
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.080
by several experts and several NGOs.
00:31:57.080 --> 00:32:00.040
We have the SOLID project also from Tim Berners-Lee
00:32:00.040 --> 00:32:03.080
that didn't deliver as much as maybe as she wanted so far.
00:32:03.080 --> 00:32:06.160
But Tim Berners-Lee is the founder of the internet.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.760
He's mentioned as well in your book,
00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:11.760
one of the people that you mentioned in the book
00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:14.040
to bring him back to also to the digital primer.
00:32:14.040 --> 00:32:18.560
But this whole idea of data, it's a real thing.
00:32:18.560 --> 00:32:21.480
And I don't think that we should indeed see data as the new oil.
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:24.600
And it's the new goal, it's something else.
00:32:24.600 --> 00:32:26.800
It's also a social aspect
00:32:26.800 --> 00:32:29.400
because data is always in relation to something else.
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.480
And we can do a lot of good things with it.
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:34.680
And I think that's where we should put our efforts.
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.880
I totally agree that we should put our efforts to finding a way,
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:39.800
partly perhaps through regulations,
00:32:39.800 --> 00:32:42.080
split that data or make it available
00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:44.680
to make it available for other applications.
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.360
And then work with civil society or with researchers
00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:49.440
or with the smaller developers
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.120
that develop then to take this opportunity to develop something new,
00:32:53.120 --> 00:32:55.040
something that adds value to the people,
00:32:55.040 --> 00:32:59.000
to the companies, also to efficiency, like you mentioned before.
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.040
And I think that's where also AI again becomes very interesting
00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:04.440
because the quality of AI, it's not only the models,
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.080
it's also the data sets.
00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:09.720
So if you would get to like a really trustworthy data set,
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:11.880
it's also a different game than if you just scratch,
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.200
you scrape the internet with all the racism
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:17.560
and all the crazy stuff and you train it on that.
00:33:17.560 --> 00:33:21.000
So I see things coming together also in the coming years.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.320
We don't have a vision, we don't know where it's going.
00:33:23.320 --> 00:33:25.600
And I think the digital developments are going so quickly
00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:28.080
that also your book, it's ending, I think,
00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:30.800
also on these different avenues and these different ideas.
00:33:30.800 --> 00:33:33.720
And I don't know if you have any closing remarks,
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:35.480
like anything that you would want to say
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.960
that you haven't said before about this relationship
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:41.880
between society and technology, anything to close on
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.640
because we discussed a lot of interesting topics.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:48.240
Yeah, I mean, I wanted to make a point on the fact that if you,
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.280
and it's not about this point in particular,
00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:52.200
but it's about how interested it is
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:58.600
that the California legislation just been approved in the US.
00:33:58.600 --> 00:34:01.920
Defines, it's very different from the European AI Act, right?
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.080
The European AI Act is very horizontal
00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:07.000
and it's based on basically the IPOSIS.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.880
And it basically says regardless, regardless,
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:13.720
if the risk is high, then you have to
00:34:13.720 --> 00:34:16.760
determine controls around this product.
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:20.880
California legislation only focuses on foundational models.
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.040
But interestingly it says if the company puts,
00:34:24.040 --> 00:34:25.200
or either foundational models,
00:34:25.200 --> 00:34:27.680
or companies or products where the company's put
00:34:27.680 --> 00:34:31.280
more than 100 million in billion investments.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.640
So if you think about this, it's really interesting
00:34:33.640 --> 00:34:39.120
because if you think about how far reaching the approach,
00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:40.640
the European approach is,
00:34:40.640 --> 00:34:43.400
which is not dependent on the investment
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.440
that a company makes on a foundation, on a model.
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:50.280
That is based on the risk that that model may pose,
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:52.560
either on the health and safety of citizens
00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:55.520
or the fundamental rights and freedoms
00:34:55.520 --> 00:34:59.120
that bind us together in the European Union.
00:34:59.120 --> 00:35:03.080
Our model is incredibly more far reaching.
00:35:03.080 --> 00:35:07.720
But the reason I mentioned this to you is because Elon Musk
00:35:07.720 --> 00:35:13.240
has endorsed the California legislation.
00:35:13.240 --> 00:35:18.160
Because obviously they've always advocated for,
00:35:18.160 --> 00:35:21.960
he's advocated for regulation.
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:26.000
But the reason why he's endorsed it is because probably,
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.520
one of the reasons why some big companies
00:35:28.520 --> 00:35:29.800
have endorsed this legislation,
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:35.240
because it does favor the big players, obviously.
00:35:35.240 --> 00:35:37.600
So the reason why I'm saying this to you is
00:35:37.600 --> 00:35:39.680
to an extent by looking at this,
00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:44.160
it's not Europe that has been on to innovation here.
00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:46.560
Actually, Europe is being quite innovative
00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:48.080
with the European area.
00:35:48.080 --> 00:35:51.720
So I think we need to be very clear
00:35:51.720 --> 00:35:56.200
when it comes to analyzing the European approach
00:35:56.200 --> 00:35:58.520
and not being too simplistic
00:35:58.520 --> 00:36:02.320
and really look at the bigger picture here.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.920
And we have enormous opportunities,
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.520
especially in the areas of research and development.
00:36:08.520 --> 00:36:11.160
We need to make some bold decisions,
00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:17.600
but we do have incredible opportunities to work on.
00:36:17.600 --> 00:36:22.080
And also, we mentioned in the book,
00:36:22.080 --> 00:36:23.600
I talked about the Brussels effect,
00:36:23.600 --> 00:36:25.680
but that is not a big thing,
00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:28.160
a bad thing to have the Brussels effect.
00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:31.040
It's not a bad thing to be the super regulator in the world,
00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:34.000
to set the standards more important.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.360
And we did it a little bit with the GDPR,
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:39.480
overly criticized, overly criticized.
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:40.800
And now in the age of AI,
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:43.160
we do need to rethink artificial intelligence.
00:36:43.160 --> 00:36:47.040
But the role of Europe in this is really, really important.
00:36:47.040 --> 00:36:49.200
We don't have to be a copy of the US.
00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:52.360
We don't have to be, of course, a copy of China.
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.520
We can find our own way
00:36:55.520 --> 00:36:57.880
to harness the value of these technologies,
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.480
ensuring that businesses use them,
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:04.840
ensuring that the digital dividends are shared more equally.
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.440
And we can find our own way of doing this.
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.320
And by doing so also,
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.520
trying to reshape the relationship with technology.
00:37:12.520 --> 00:37:14.840
Because at the moment,
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:16.720
we are adapting to technology,
00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:19.560
but technology is not adapting to us.
00:37:19.560 --> 00:37:21.080
And this is where Europe,
00:37:21.080 --> 00:37:23.000
European Union has to be different.
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.960
The role of public policy is to make these choices.
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:28.320
Not because something is technologically possible,
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.840
then we have to follow it or do it.
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:32.680
This is where the role of public policy is.
00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:34.160
I'll give you an example.
00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:36.560
I'm a big, I mean, a working privacy law.
00:37:36.560 --> 00:37:39.760
I believe in artificial intelligence on device,
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:41.520
because that means that it's more private,
00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:43.560
more secure, and it happens here on device.
00:37:43.560 --> 00:37:46.440
But I am fully aware that not everybody
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:48.360
has got power for mobile phones.
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:50.880
This is where politics comes in and says,
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.520
"Well, actually, this trade-off is not good enough."
00:37:54.520 --> 00:37:57.760
So I would like to see much public policy
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.960
in shaping and steering where technology is going.
00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:06.120
And I think this is very important at the time
00:38:06.120 --> 00:38:08.800
where we are adapting to tech,
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.080
rather than tech adapting to a vision
00:38:11.080 --> 00:38:15.680
of where we as a society want to be in 2030 or 50 years.
00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:17.200
Now, we've done the line.
00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:19.160
Thank you, Ivana.
00:38:19.160 --> 00:38:21.000
I think we can talk for hours about this,
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.840
and I think we will in another occasion.
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:24.720
So thank you very much for being here today
00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:28.360
with this on our podcast, "Feb Stalks."
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:30.920
Once again, I also want to promote the book you wrote,
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:33.440
which is very much inspiring
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:36.040
and also very much a background work
00:38:36.040 --> 00:38:38.120
when it comes to digital policy in Europe,
00:38:38.120 --> 00:38:41.280
a digital union based on European values.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.080
So please, you can find a PDF also on our website,
00:38:45.080 --> 00:38:48.920
and you can also order the book in hard copy.
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:50.600
So Ivana, thank you very much.
00:38:50.600 --> 00:38:52.480
This was Gerard Ostweg.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.280
I'm the Digital Policy Analyst at FEBs,
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:57.680
and please tune in for future episodes.
00:38:57.680 --> 00:38:58.840
Thank you very much.
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.420
(upbeat music)
00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:04.000
(upbeat music)
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.580
(upbeat music)