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Welcome to another episode of Express Conversations, a podcast where
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eminent voices from the world of politics, governance, sports, business
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and arts talk to us about their life, work and
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issues that really matter. In this episode, we will hear
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from historian and author while Noah Haadi, our guest, is
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in conversation with Anantguinka from The Indian Express. In this episode,
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while Noah Harari speaks about the nature of populism, intervention
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of AI in human relationships in the coming years, future
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of money, and more.
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Let's kind of start with what do you think power is?
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In the year twenty twenty five, Trump defines power as fear.
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Trump says power is feared. What do you think power is?
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Well, the question is what do you do with power?
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Do you use power just to gain more power or
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do you try to use power in order to change
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the world for the better, in order to improve people's lives.
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And that's always the big question in politics.
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Unfortunately, at the present moment, we have too many politicians
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who think about power as just a means to gain
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more power. And this has always been the danger in democracy.
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You know, for thousands of years, going back to ancient democracies,
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democracy is a system in which you give power to
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somebody on condition that after four years or so, they
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give it back and the public can make another decision.
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Did you use your power wisely and compassionately for four years? Okay,
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then we give it again, or if not, we give
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it to somebody else. The question is always what happens
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if you give power to somebody who doesn't want to
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give it back. They now have all the power, so
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they can use it to just stay in power. And
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I think the American public has made a very big gamble,
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big risk is giving so much power to Trump, who
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already proved that he wants to stay.
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In power at all costs. So we will see what happens.
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And why do you think they did that? Why? What?
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What was the reason that Trump won in this incredibly
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you know, I mean just very different a way.
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I mean, you know, I think it.
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Was an eight million more people voted for him now
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than he did the last time.
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So I don't know.
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I'm not an expert on American society or politics, so
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I can't.
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Yeah, what I was trying to get you to talk
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about really was the trend of populism.
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Is it a trend?
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Yes? Absolutely, You see across across the world.
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You know, now we saw in South Korea, what was
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happening that you see again leaders all over the world
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that are more interested in power and staying in power
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than in serving the people and doing good.
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But why why do we see this happening so often
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and that the trend populist political movements are not new
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happening around the world all the time. What is the
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one thing that kind of provokes that if you look
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back in history and even the presents, the one common
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thing that provokes populist.
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I think at at the heart of populism there is
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a distrust of humanity, a distrust of human beings. You
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see it both on the radical right and also on
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the radical left. They have different ideas about many things,
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but one thing unites them. It is thinking that the
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only reality is power, and that all human interactions are
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power struggles. They don't believe, populists that humans and human institutions.
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Really care about the truth.
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In the populist imagination, when I'm now talking with you,
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this is a power struggle. Everything we say is just
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trying to manipulate each other or to manipulate the viewers.
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So the question to ask Whenever you hear somebody says something,
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the question to ask, is it true?
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What is the evidence? The question to.
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Ask is who is winning, who is gaining power, whose
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interests are being served? This view of humanity as if
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all humans are power crazy demons. This erodes trust in
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human beings. It erodes trust in institutions, in the media,
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in university, in courts. People think, oh, these are just
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conspiracies of people to gain power. And if you lose
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trust in all institutions, democracy collapsence. Democracy functions based on trust.
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If there is no trust, the only system that can
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still function is a dictatorship, because dictatorship is built on terror,
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not on trust.
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You need to fright people, not make them trust.
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Now, the main thing to say about this populist worldview
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is that it's not just very cynical, it's simply wrong.
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Yes, humans are interested in power.
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To some extent, but every human being also has an authentic,
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deep yearning for the truth.
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We really want to know the truth about the world.
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Why Because if you don't know the truth about life,
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you will never be happy because you don't know what
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are the truth sources of your misery. Even if you're
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the most powerful person in the world. If you don't
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know the truth about life, you will waste only your
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power trying to solve the wrong problems. And we should
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start life. We should approach the world with a more
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generous view of human beings and human institutions. That, yes,
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some human beings are corrupt, there are problems, sometimes people lie,
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but this is not the basic situation of humanity.
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Why when you it's interesting you said there you use
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the word misery, human misery. Yeah, is that something that
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you feel we are coming too faster? So you know,
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if I mean, if we go back in time, we
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see that the regime change, you.
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Know, has happened after four hundred years, two hundred years
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in the past.
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You know, now there seems to be you that the
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a majority or a popular number of enough people in
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that citizenary get disillusioned with that regime much quicker, and
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so they're always asking.
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Only in democracies because in a once you get an
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authoritarian in power, the ability to change the regime is over,
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because even if most people.
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Want to change the regime, they can't. We serve this.
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For instance, in Venezuela that originally Hugo Chavez and Maduro,
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they came to power democratically, this is what the people wanted.
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But then they use their power to take over the state.
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And in the recent elections in Venezuela, the opposition won
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by more than sixty percent. But because Maduro got his
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people into the courts, into the election committee, he says,
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I want and you can't move him.
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Aside, that's a matter of time, Okay. So I think
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what what the election outcome is is aside. But I
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think my question is more in terms of.
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Just the people.
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Do the people get fed up of the regime faster
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today than they used to? And believe it took two years?
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Yeah, I mean history is accelerating, and you know, being
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fed up is one of the deep truths about human
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nature is that the deep, the basic reaction of the
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mind to pleasant experiences is not satisfaction but craving for more.
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So the better things become, people not do not become
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more satisfied. They become more or they have more desires,
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they have more cravings, and they are less satisfied.
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That's interesting in America because in America, I mean, it's
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been a greade fifty years.
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Large.
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I mean, they've been successful, They've commanded the attention of
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the world.
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That's the amazing thing. You know.
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Trump's slogan is Let's make America great again, as if
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America is not great. But you look at America in
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the in recent years, during Biden's time, it is by
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far the biggest economy. The American economy is booming. You
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look at the rise of American GDP. China is in trouble,
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Europe is in trouble.
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America is doing great. You look at the military.
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The US military is by far the strongest army in
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the world. It's the strongest country. You look at the
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AI race, which is that the center of the book
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I wrote. And United States is winning the AI race,
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which will make America even more powerful, economically, culturally, literally,
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And yet Americans are so dissatisfied, so angry, so fearful.
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You look at the long span of history and in
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terms of health, nutrition, security, countries like the United States,
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like France, like German, this is the best place in history,
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and people are so dissatisfied.
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So is spirituality an answer to this dissatisfaction or is
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it something that makes people at more and get creates
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more satisfies.
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It depends on if you mean spirituality or religion.
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I was going to exactly, So I mean if I
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let if I use my definite spirituality, which is the
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act of going inwards.
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Yes, you know the problem of real spirituality is that
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it doesn't scale.
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Real spirituality is when you have a big question.
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I'm surprised you're saying that because you're you're from Israeli.
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You know, and you do the.
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Past now all the way like four our way from Mumbai,
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familiar with it.
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So it's kind of scale, right.
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You know, you think how many people there are in
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India or in Israel, and how many of them really
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go on these deep spiritual journeys.
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Religion doesn't, Yes, religion scales.
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Spirituality is when you ask a big question about life,
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what is reality? What is good? And you go on
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a very deep, sometimes difficult journey to find the answers,
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and you're not willing to no matter what obstacle you encounter.
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You go on.
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Religion is when people are kind of tired or give
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up on the spiritual quest and they just get a
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ready made answer, like somebody says, this is the answer
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to the big question.
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Take it, believe it.
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You cannot question it, and you just believe it blind
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belief this is these scales this you can make a
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billion people chant some answer. So whenever the many spiritual
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traditions around the world, every time you try to scale
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them up, that it's not an individual or as smaller
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than yes, because you know people, you know that they
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become attached to rights and rituals, they become attached to beliefs,
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and they forget about the true essence of the spiritual path,
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and then it becomes a religion and it often leads
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to more conflict and more political strife instead of you know,
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the best test for a spiritual tradition or a spiritual
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place like a temple or a synagogue, does it bring
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peace or conflict? If you have a temple and you
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have a lot of people fighting over it, it means
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it's not functioning well. So this is a very simple test.
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And and you see it like in Jerusalem, supposed to be
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the holiest place on earth, the most spiritual place on earth.
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Always so many wars.
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If it's so spiritual, how come it causes so many
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so much bloodshed?
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Is there anything in your time in India and your
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exposure to spirituality in India? And I like to believe India
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is at the at the heart of any devout space,
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devout place, there is some spirituality in it here. Do
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you think India has some kind of learning from the world,
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that that the world can learn something from Indian spirituality.
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Or is it? Are we just as good or as
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bad as any place.
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I'm not an expert on, you know, comparing the spiritual tradition.
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I myself found the deepest answers in my life on
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man spiritual path from a tradition that started in India
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with the Buddha and my teachers and go income.
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He learned it in Burma and Yanmar.
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So this is why I come every year for to
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take a long meditation retreats here.
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But I wouldn't like to comment all give.
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Give ranks like a unfair question.
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So I think, you know, because you're a little short
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of time, I thought we could play a kind of
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a short kind of a game, okay, where I kind
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of ask you to to.
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Kind of just in a rapid fire. Very few sentences have.
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Fun at that.
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That's not my strong I tend to give long answers,
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but I try, so, you know, so will try.
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I have just have fun, fun, don't I don't worry
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too much about it, and you know, we'll see how
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how we kind of get on. So if I can
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ask you, and you know, I've thought about these questions
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based on your books, so you know I'm trying to
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you know, what will be the future of and what
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you think should be the future?
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Okay?
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Right?
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So what will be the future of religion and what
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should be the future of religion?
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Religion will continue to change.
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I mean, people think that religion is some kind of
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eternal truth. But if you look at any religion, Juday is,
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in Christianity, in Hinduism, Buddhism changes all the time.
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People deny the change. No, no, no, no, no, It's
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the same eternal truth.
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You take a Jew today, you take a Jew one
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thousand years ago, two thousand years ago. They believe in
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different things, They dress differently, they behave differently. So religion
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will continue to change to adapt to new realities like
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the rise of Ai will also change religion, right, and
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it should if it wants to survive, it has to change.
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If you don't change, you don't survive.
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Okay, Okay, what will be the future of romantic love
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and what should be the future of romantic love?
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I can't predict what think thet ai?
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Yeah, you mentioned you know, you've spoken about these concepts.
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I think that we will see more and more intervention
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of technology of AI in human relationships, even humans getting
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into relationships with ais. I don't think that ais have consciousness,
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that they have feelings, emotions, but they become very good
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at creating fake feelings and fake emotions, fooling us to
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think that there is another conscious entity. So I think
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we will see more and more of that, and this
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is going this is very dangerous. I think we have
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to be very careful about that.
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And we should be able to keep AI out of
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a person in a personal life.
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Yes.
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Again, the key about relationships, especially romantic relationship, if it's
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only focused on you, I want to feel good, I
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want to feel better than AI could be the perfect
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companion because it knows your own feelings and it focuses
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a new but real relationship is not about me. Really,
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relationship is I'm in the relationship because I want that
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the other person. I care about the feelings of the
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other person also, And if AI has no feelings, I
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cannot have a real relationship that is going ways with
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something that has no feelings.
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What about inequality.
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You know.
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Very interestingly in the book you said that we were
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more equal in your apes compared to today.
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Yeah, I mean one of the Again, I can't predict
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the future depends on the decisions we make. But one
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of the big dangers that we will see much greater
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inequality than ever before. Because you have a few countries
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that lead the AI revolution. It's mostly the USA and China.
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All the countries are far behind. So like in the
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nineteenth century with the Industrial Revolution, but a few countries
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like Britain and France and Japan, they led the Industrial Revolution.
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They concer and exploited the whole world. It's likely to.
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Happen the same thing, maybe on an even bigger scale
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with AI. And similarly, even if you look inside just
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one society, you look at the United States, so very.
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Few people understand the AI revolution.
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Very few people make the key decisions about the future
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of everybody.
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And these people, you.
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Know, like Elon mass like the leaders of Silicon Valley,
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they are not elected by anybody, and maybe they are
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making the most.
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Important decisions in the history of the world.
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The creation of AIS, of new agents more intelligent than us,
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of a new species that might take over the world.
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One of the reasons I wrote Nexus is to have
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more people who understand what is the AI revolution, what
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is happening, so more people from all over the world
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can join the debate and voice their opinions.
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If I can just take a small step aside from
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my own game and kind of talk a little bit
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more about equality inequality. Yeah, one of the things that
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I think about India is that India's very very hierarchical. Please,
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everything is hierarchy, right, it's a whether employee, employer or
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student nature groucu shu, you know, yeah, you know that
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whole bit. You know, old young you'd always find that
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hierarchy is much more in India, and many on the
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parts of the world, like in Japan and China, are
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not much China, and that's kind of how society is functioned.
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It's worked on hierarchy.
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And then the American way, which is so attractive and
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just almost like you know, capture the imagination of the world.
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Is everything is equal at least that's the aspirational, you know,
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thing of the kind is there is equality sort of a.
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Uniform value around the world.
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Is equality something which is as a value, something which
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is you know, across the world the same, or does
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is equality thought about differently in America versus India versus
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the rest? And how should it be thought about?
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Well, the idea of equality is very attractive all over
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the world because it is based on a on a
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deep truth. Yes, that all humans are essentially the same. Biologically,
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we are all the same, We have the same bodies,
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we have the same mental and physical basic capabilities. Culture
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creates all these differences. Oh, you're from this group, you're
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from this cost, you're from this gender, so you are
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higher your lower. All of this is human imagination. Of course,
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human imagination changes the world. If because of our imagination
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we give some group better education, more money, more positions
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than it does, become more powerful, more educated.
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But this is not coming from biology. This is coming
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from our imagination.
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So this is why the idea of equality is so attractive.
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Of course, it's not easy to implement in practice, especially
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would it's possible to create a completely equal society. It's
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impossible equal society it ever happened before, No, only on
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very very small scale, like if you have a hunter
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of other band of thirty people, then okay, can more
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or less In the last thousand years, but you don't
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have any society of millions of people you can have
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pretending to be equal, like you look at communist society
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in the Soviet Union for instance, everybody is equal, but
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really it's standing really on the equal to the simple peasant.
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No aspireful or is there another way?
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Can we can we embrace diversity in equality and kind
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to have a way of society functions and a happy
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you know, fair part.
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It's a big debate.
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I mean, the big debate is a bit between equality
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of opportunities and the equality of outcomes. Equality of outcomes
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is just impossible when.
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You try to do it.
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The only thing that can try is a totalitarian regime
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because you constantly have to kind.
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Of manage everybody. What we can aspire to more is
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at least equality of opportunities. Will never be the same
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outcome for every body.
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But it is unfair if a child born today to
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a very poor family and a child born to a
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very rich family, the poor child will not get any
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education and will not have any opportunities. Why so at
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least we can we should aspile to create more opportunities
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for more people.
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Quick answer the first part that you mentioned, do you
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think that's one of the reasons of all the populist
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movements around the world, that there is this feeling that
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we want equality, and that's why we're going to change
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the regime, change everything, change all the institutions.
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Sometimes they say so, but in many of the policies
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of populist regimes around the world, they encourage hierarchy and
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they encourage inequality.
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They're voting for authoritarianism.
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Yes, so they sometimes use the ideal of equality as
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a kind of propaganda, but when you look at what
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they actually do.
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One is actually it's right.
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The future of money and what should be the future
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of money? What do you think will be the future?
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That's a very important question. Money is again, money is
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about trust. Money is a system of mutual trust between people,
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maybe the most sophisticated system of trust ever devised. The
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two people who never met, complete foreigners, maybe from different countries.
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They can still trade, they can still make our cooperation
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based on money.
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And now we.
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See the rise of new cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, which out
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of some extent, based on this trust that you don't
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trust the banks, you don't trust the government, so instead
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you trust technology.
401
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This becomes the basis of the money like the dollar
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is based.
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On trust in human institutions, Bitcoin is based on trust
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in technology. So it's another sign that humans are losing
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trust in other humans and instead trying to base their
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trust on technology. And this is a very dangerous development.
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And what should happen.
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Should we not be innovative with technology and stick to
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the old dollars and stick to the old No.
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You can definitely have digital. Most most dollars already our digital.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I mean hardly anybody uses cash anymore for anything.
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So the question is not whether the money is digital
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or physical. It's all becoming digital. The question is what
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is the basis for the trust in the money. I
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mean with the dollar, people say, oh, I trust human
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institutions like the Federal Reserve or the US government or.
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A trust the dollar, I don't trust.
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Yes, crypto is saying I don't trust human institutions.
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I put my trust only.
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In technology and a world in which humans don't trust
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other humans.
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I mean, that's the whole trend of AI. Like what
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you see.
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You have this of AI arms race, and you talk
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with the people leading the big AI companies and they
427
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tell you we have to move faster and faster because.
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We don't trust the other humans. But then you ask.
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Them, but do you think you'll be able to trust
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the ais you're creating?
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And they say yes.
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And this is the paradox, because we should have more
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trust in other humans than in this completely new alien
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AI intelligence.
435
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:31.240
Okay, I'm going to try to get through some more
436
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:34.079
rapid fires a little bit quicker because I'm getting some science.
437
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:35.960
I can't really read it on the corner of my eyeland.
438
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:39.720
So what wins?
439
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.440
Does religion win or does spirituality win?
440
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:50.559
Short answer in history, religion wins because s cirituality doesn't scale.
441
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.640
But if you want to be happy, religion won't help you.
442
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:56.559
Spirituality is more wins justice or revenge.
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Justice at least you can't have a large coal of
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society based on revenge, and we see large cur societies
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all over the world. So despite the power of revenge,
446
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humans have learned how to seek justice and not revenge.
447
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.160
What do you think will be the outcome?
448
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.759
And is there is there is there a good ending
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or is there is there a peaceful sustainable ending of
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the Israel.
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Conflict?
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Which the policy yes if people won't, I mean, the
453
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conflict doesn't come from physics of biology, from the laws
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of nature.
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It comes from beliefs in people's minds.
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And if people change their beliefs, the conflict will end.
457
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.880
But of course it's very difficult to make people change
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their beliefs.
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One thing you never expected to see in your lifetime.
460
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I don't know. I need to think about that.
461
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.599
Okay, if you could go back and edit or change
462
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.960
any chapter twenty one lessons I tend.
463
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.799
Once I finish a book, it's over. I mean, otherwise you.
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Could you and did it complete, and it's it's a
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life of its own now, it's like it's not me anymore.
466
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.799
Okay, Okay. The one prediction of trend that you think
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you were.
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00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.920
Wrong about one prediction or trend.
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I didn't expect that people will give up on the
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system that brought peace to the world so quickly and
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so easily. The early twenty first century was the most
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peaceful era in human history. It wasn't because of a miracle.
473
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:31.079
It was because we people built institutions and the rule
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based order, and it has been the biggest political achievement
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maybe in history, and people have just gave it up
476
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:40.759
are in the process of just giving it up.
477
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.000
Talk about liberalism and liberal democracies.
478
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No, I'm talking about the international system, which includes also autocracies, which.
479
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Indeed, but there was somebody on top of that food chain.
480
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.880
There was one person top of writ is that part.
481
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.240
Of your It's just not just one person.
482
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You see it all over the world that people just
483
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I think think again, it's something deep in human nature
484
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that the good things you just take for granted.
485
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Like when your knee is working.
486
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:10.240
Well, you don't think about it, you just know the
487
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.000
knee nothing. Then it starts feeling pain. You remember, oh,
488
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I have a knee. It's the same with the relative
489
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order and the peace of the world that people just
490
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.759
took it for granted. Now it's collapsing and instead of order,
491
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we get chaos.
492
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And it was so difficult to build. It was an
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imperfect order.
494
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And I didn't I didn't think that people would be
495
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so stupid to give up so quickly this achievement.
496
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We want the last part.
497
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.319
I'll try to be fast, and you know, we we
498
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.720
got three four minutes. The one historical lesson you want
499
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.559
to read to the following individuals. The one history lesson
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you'd want to read to Donald Trump.
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Oh, I'm not sure that he's really interested, but then
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you historical lessons.
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If there's one thing that you had the opportunity to
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flag to.
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And make him sit down and pay attentional and consume,
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which lesson would that be?
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Anecdote from history? One lesson from history?
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You know, the most basic lesson that he's going to
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die like everybody else. So all these pursuits of power
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and attention.
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It will it will lead him nowhere.
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Okay.
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And I think if he remembers his own, you know,
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his own transience, like I can almost guarantee him that
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in a couple of hundred years, nobody would remember him.
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00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.960
Like how many Mughal emperors people in the United States
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remember how many Busantine emperors?
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00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:44.519
People remember very.
519
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:49.079
Very few, so they all get forgottenahu hm.
520
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The one lesson that you want.
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Him to.
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The basic lesson.
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You know, Joseph been a persecuted minority for two thousand years,
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and this was the deepest lesson that Jews learned that
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you need that don't worship power, that you need more
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compassion and Nataniao and his people. Everything the Jewish people
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have learned over two thousand years, they forgot within two generations.
528
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Thank you, thank you so much.
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00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.079
You were listening to you Ale Noaharati on Express Conversations.
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to us at podcasts at Indian Express dot com.
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Welcome to another episode of Express Conversations, a podcast where
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eminent voices from the world of politics, governance, sports, business
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and arts talk to us about their life, work and
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issues that really matter. In this episode, we will hear
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from historian and author while Noah Haadi, our guest, is
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in conversation with Anantguinka from The Indian Express. In this episode,
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while Noah Harari speaks about the nature of populism, intervention
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of AI in human relationships in the coming years, future
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of money, and more.
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Let's kind of start with what do you think power is?
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In the year twenty twenty five, Trump defines power as fear.
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Trump says power is feared. What do you think power is?
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Well, the question is what do you do with power?
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Do you use power just to gain more power or
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do you try to use power in order to change
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the world for the better, in order to improve people's lives.
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And that's always the big question in politics.
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Unfortunately, at the present moment, we have too many politicians
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who think about power as just a means to gain
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more power. And this has always been the danger in democracy.
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You know, for thousands of years, going back to ancient democracies,
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democracy is a system in which you give power to
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somebody on condition that after four years or so, they
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give it back and the public can make another decision.
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Did you use your power wisely and compassionately for four years? Okay,
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then we give it again, or if not, we give
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it to somebody else. The question is always what happens
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if you give power to somebody who doesn't want to
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give it back. They now have all the power, so
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they can use it to just stay in power. And
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I think the American public has made a very big gamble,
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big risk is giving so much power to Trump, who
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already proved that he wants to stay.
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In power at all costs. So we will see what happens.
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And why do you think they did that? Why? What?
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What was the reason that Trump won in this incredibly
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you know, I mean just very different a way.
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I mean, you know, I think it.
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Was an eight million more people voted for him now
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than he did the last time.
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So I don't know.
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I'm not an expert on American society or politics, so
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I can't.
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Yeah, what I was trying to get you to talk
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about really was the trend of populism.
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Is it a trend?
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Yes? Absolutely, You see across across the world.
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You know, now we saw in South Korea, what was
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happening that you see again leaders all over the world
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that are more interested in power and staying in power
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than in serving the people and doing good.
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But why why do we see this happening so often
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and that the trend populist political movements are not new
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happening around the world all the time. What is the
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one thing that kind of provokes that if you look
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back in history and even the presents, the one common
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thing that provokes populist.
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I think at at the heart of populism there is
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a distrust of humanity, a distrust of human beings. You
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see it both on the radical right and also on
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the radical left. They have different ideas about many things,
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but one thing unites them. It is thinking that the
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only reality is power, and that all human interactions are
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power struggles. They don't believe, populists that humans and human institutions.
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Really care about the truth.
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In the populist imagination, when I'm now talking with you,
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this is a power struggle. Everything we say is just
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trying to manipulate each other or to manipulate the viewers.
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So the question to ask Whenever you hear somebody says something,
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the question to ask, is it true?
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What is the evidence? The question to.
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Ask is who is winning, who is gaining power, whose
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interests are being served? This view of humanity as if
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all humans are power crazy demons. This erodes trust in
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human beings. It erodes trust in institutions, in the media,
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in university, in courts. People think, oh, these are just
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conspiracies of people to gain power. And if you lose
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trust in all institutions, democracy collapsence. Democracy functions based on trust.
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If there is no trust, the only system that can
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still function is a dictatorship, because dictatorship is built on terror,
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not on trust.
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You need to fright people, not make them trust.
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Now, the main thing to say about this populist worldview
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is that it's not just very cynical, it's simply wrong.
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Yes, humans are interested in power.
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To some extent, but every human being also has an authentic,
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deep yearning for the truth.
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We really want to know the truth about the world.
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Why Because if you don't know the truth about life,
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you will never be happy because you don't know what
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are the truth sources of your misery. Even if you're
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the most powerful person in the world. If you don't
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know the truth about life, you will waste only your
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power trying to solve the wrong problems. And we should
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start life. We should approach the world with a more
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generous view of human beings and human institutions. That, yes,
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some human beings are corrupt, there are problems, sometimes people lie,
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but this is not the basic situation of humanity.
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Why when you it's interesting you said there you use
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the word misery, human misery. Yeah, is that something that
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you feel we are coming too faster? So you know,
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if I mean, if we go back in time, we
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see that the regime change, you.
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Know, has happened after four hundred years, two hundred years
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in the past.
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You know, now there seems to be you that the
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a majority or a popular number of enough people in
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that citizenary get disillusioned with that regime much quicker, and
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so they're always asking.
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Only in democracies because in a once you get an
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authoritarian in power, the ability to change the regime is over,
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because even if most people.
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Want to change the regime, they can't. We serve this.
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For instance, in Venezuela that originally Hugo Chavez and Maduro,
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they came to power democratically, this is what the people wanted.
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But then they use their power to take over the state.
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And in the recent elections in Venezuela, the opposition won
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by more than sixty percent. But because Maduro got his
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people into the courts, into the election committee, he says,
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I want and you can't move him.
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Aside, that's a matter of time, Okay. So I think
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what what the election outcome is is aside. But I
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think my question is more in terms of.
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Just the people.
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Do the people get fed up of the regime faster
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today than they used to? And believe it took two years?
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Yeah, I mean history is accelerating, and you know, being
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fed up is one of the deep truths about human
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nature is that the deep, the basic reaction of the
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mind to pleasant experiences is not satisfaction but craving for more.
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So the better things become, people not do not become
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more satisfied. They become more or they have more desires,
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they have more cravings, and they are less satisfied.
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That's interesting in America because in America, I mean, it's
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been a greade fifty years.
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Large.
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I mean, they've been successful, They've commanded the attention of
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the world.
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That's the amazing thing. You know.
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Trump's slogan is Let's make America great again, as if
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America is not great. But you look at America in
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the in recent years, during Biden's time, it is by
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far the biggest economy. The American economy is booming. You
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look at the rise of American GDP. China is in trouble,
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Europe is in trouble.
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America is doing great. You look at the military.
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The US military is by far the strongest army in
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the world. It's the strongest country. You look at the
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AI race, which is that the center of the book
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I wrote. And United States is winning the AI race,
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which will make America even more powerful, economically, culturally, literally,
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And yet Americans are so dissatisfied, so angry, so fearful.
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You look at the long span of history and in
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terms of health, nutrition, security, countries like the United States,
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like France, like German, this is the best place in history,
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and people are so dissatisfied.
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So is spirituality an answer to this dissatisfaction or is
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it something that makes people at more and get creates
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more satisfies.
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It depends on if you mean spirituality or religion.
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I was going to exactly, So I mean if I
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let if I use my definite spirituality, which is the
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act of going inwards.
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Yes, you know the problem of real spirituality is that
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it doesn't scale.
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Real spirituality is when you have a big question.
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I'm surprised you're saying that because you're you're from Israeli.
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You know, and you do the.
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Past now all the way like four our way from Mumbai,
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familiar with it.
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So it's kind of scale, right.
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You know, you think how many people there are in
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India or in Israel, and how many of them really
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go on these deep spiritual journeys.
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Religion doesn't, Yes, religion scales.
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Spirituality is when you ask a big question about life,
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what is reality? What is good? And you go on
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a very deep, sometimes difficult journey to find the answers,
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and you're not willing to no matter what obstacle you encounter.
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You go on.
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Religion is when people are kind of tired or give
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up on the spiritual quest and they just get a
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ready made answer, like somebody says, this is the answer
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to the big question.
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Take it, believe it.
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You cannot question it, and you just believe it blind
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belief this is these scales this you can make a
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billion people chant some answer. So whenever the many spiritual
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traditions around the world, every time you try to scale
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them up, that it's not an individual or as smaller
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than yes, because you know people, you know that they
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become attached to rights and rituals, they become attached to beliefs,
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and they forget about the true essence of the spiritual path,
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and then it becomes a religion and it often leads
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to more conflict and more political strife instead of you know,
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the best test for a spiritual tradition or a spiritual
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place like a temple or a synagogue, does it bring
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peace or conflict? If you have a temple and you
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have a lot of people fighting over it, it means
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it's not functioning well. So this is a very simple test.
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And and you see it like in Jerusalem, supposed to be
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the holiest place on earth, the most spiritual place on earth.
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Always so many wars.
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If it's so spiritual, how come it causes so many
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so much bloodshed?
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Is there anything in your time in India and your
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exposure to spirituality in India? And I like to believe India
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is at the at the heart of any devout space,
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devout place, there is some spirituality in it here. Do
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you think India has some kind of learning from the world,
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that that the world can learn something from Indian spirituality.
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Or is it? Are we just as good or as
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bad as any place.
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I'm not an expert on, you know, comparing the spiritual tradition.
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I myself found the deepest answers in my life on
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man spiritual path from a tradition that started in India
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with the Buddha and my teachers and go income.
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He learned it in Burma and Yanmar.
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So this is why I come every year for to
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take a long meditation retreats here.
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But I wouldn't like to comment all give.
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Give ranks like a unfair question.
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So I think, you know, because you're a little short
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of time, I thought we could play a kind of
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a short kind of a game, okay, where I kind
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of ask you to to.
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Kind of just in a rapid fire. Very few sentences have.
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Fun at that.
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That's not my strong I tend to give long answers,
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but I try, so, you know, so will try.
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I have just have fun, fun, don't I don't worry
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too much about it, and you know, we'll see how
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how we kind of get on. So if I can
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ask you, and you know, I've thought about these questions
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based on your books, so you know I'm trying to
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you know, what will be the future of and what
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you think should be the future?
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Okay?
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Right?
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So what will be the future of religion and what
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should be the future of religion?
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Religion will continue to change.
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I mean, people think that religion is some kind of
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eternal truth. But if you look at any religion, Juday is,
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in Christianity, in Hinduism, Buddhism changes all the time.
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People deny the change. No, no, no, no, no, It's
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the same eternal truth.
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You take a Jew today, you take a Jew one
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thousand years ago, two thousand years ago. They believe in
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different things, They dress differently, they behave differently. So religion
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will continue to change to adapt to new realities like
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the rise of Ai will also change religion, right, and
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it should if it wants to survive, it has to change.
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If you don't change, you don't survive.
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Okay, Okay, what will be the future of romantic love
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and what should be the future of romantic love?
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I can't predict what think thet ai?
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Yeah, you mentioned you know, you've spoken about these concepts.
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I think that we will see more and more intervention
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of technology of AI in human relationships, even humans getting
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into relationships with ais. I don't think that ais have consciousness,
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that they have feelings, emotions, but they become very good
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at creating fake feelings and fake emotions, fooling us to
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think that there is another conscious entity. So I think
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we will see more and more of that, and this
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is going this is very dangerous. I think we have
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to be very careful about that.
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And we should be able to keep AI out of
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a person in a personal life.
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Yes.
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Again, the key about relationships, especially romantic relationship, if it's
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only focused on you, I want to feel good, I
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want to feel better than AI could be the perfect
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companion because it knows your own feelings and it focuses
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a new but real relationship is not about me. Really,
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relationship is I'm in the relationship because I want that
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the other person. I care about the feelings of the
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other person also, And if AI has no feelings, I
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cannot have a real relationship that is going ways with
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something that has no feelings.
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What about inequality.
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You know.
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Very interestingly in the book you said that we were
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more equal in your apes compared to today.
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Yeah, I mean one of the Again, I can't predict
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the future depends on the decisions we make. But one
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of the big dangers that we will see much greater
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inequality than ever before. Because you have a few countries
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that lead the AI revolution. It's mostly the USA and China.
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All the countries are far behind. So like in the
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nineteenth century with the Industrial Revolution, but a few countries
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like Britain and France and Japan, they led the Industrial Revolution.
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They concer and exploited the whole world. It's likely to.
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Happen the same thing, maybe on an even bigger scale
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with AI. And similarly, even if you look inside just
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one society, you look at the United States, so very.
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Few people understand the AI revolution.
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Very few people make the key decisions about the future
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of everybody.
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And these people, you.
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Know, like Elon mass like the leaders of Silicon Valley,
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they are not elected by anybody, and maybe they are
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making the most.
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Important decisions in the history of the world.
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The creation of AIS, of new agents more intelligent than us,
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of a new species that might take over the world.
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One of the reasons I wrote Nexus is to have
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more people who understand what is the AI revolution, what
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is happening, so more people from all over the world
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can join the debate and voice their opinions.
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If I can just take a small step aside from
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my own game and kind of talk a little bit
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more about equality inequality. Yeah, one of the things that
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I think about India is that India's very very hierarchical. Please,
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everything is hierarchy, right, it's a whether employee, employer or
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student nature groucu shu, you know, yeah, you know that
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whole bit. You know, old young you'd always find that
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hierarchy is much more in India, and many on the
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parts of the world, like in Japan and China, are
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not much China, and that's kind of how society is functioned.
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It's worked on hierarchy.
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And then the American way, which is so attractive and
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just almost like you know, capture the imagination of the world.
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Is everything is equal at least that's the aspirational, you know,
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thing of the kind is there is equality sort of a.
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Uniform value around the world.
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Is equality something which is as a value, something which
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is you know, across the world the same, or does
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is equality thought about differently in America versus India versus
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the rest? And how should it be thought about?
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Well, the idea of equality is very attractive all over
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the world because it is based on a on a
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deep truth. Yes, that all humans are essentially the same. Biologically,
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we are all the same, We have the same bodies,
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we have the same mental and physical basic capabilities. Culture
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creates all these differences. Oh, you're from this group, you're
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from this cost, you're from this gender, so you are
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higher your lower. All of this is human imagination. Of course,
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human imagination changes the world. If because of our imagination
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we give some group better education, more money, more positions
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than it does, become more powerful, more educated.
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But this is not coming from biology. This is coming
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from our imagination.
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So this is why the idea of equality is so attractive.
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Of course, it's not easy to implement in practice, especially
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would it's possible to create a completely equal society. It's
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impossible equal society it ever happened before, No, only on
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very very small scale, like if you have a hunter
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of other band of thirty people, then okay, can more
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or less In the last thousand years, but you don't
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have any society of millions of people you can have
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pretending to be equal, like you look at communist society
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in the Soviet Union for instance, everybody is equal, but
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really it's standing really on the equal to the simple peasant.
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No aspireful or is there another way?
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Can we can we embrace diversity in equality and kind
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to have a way of society functions and a happy
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you know, fair part.
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It's a big debate.
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I mean, the big debate is a bit between equality
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of opportunities and the equality of outcomes. Equality of outcomes
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is just impossible when.
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You try to do it.
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The only thing that can try is a totalitarian regime
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because you constantly have to kind.
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Of manage everybody. What we can aspire to more is
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at least equality of opportunities. Will never be the same
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outcome for every body.
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But it is unfair if a child born today to
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a very poor family and a child born to a
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very rich family, the poor child will not get any
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education and will not have any opportunities. Why so at
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least we can we should aspile to create more opportunities
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for more people.
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Quick answer the first part that you mentioned, do you
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think that's one of the reasons of all the populist
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movements around the world, that there is this feeling that
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we want equality, and that's why we're going to change
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the regime, change everything, change all the institutions.
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Sometimes they say so, but in many of the policies
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of populist regimes around the world, they encourage hierarchy and
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they encourage inequality.
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They're voting for authoritarianism.
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Yes, so they sometimes use the ideal of equality as
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a kind of propaganda, but when you look at what
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they actually do.
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One is actually it's right.
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The future of money and what should be the future
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of money? What do you think will be the future?
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That's a very important question. Money is again, money is
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about trust. Money is a system of mutual trust between people,
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maybe the most sophisticated system of trust ever devised. The
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two people who never met, complete foreigners, maybe from different countries.
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They can still trade, they can still make our cooperation
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based on money.
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And now we.
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See the rise of new cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, which out
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of some extent, based on this trust that you don't
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trust the banks, you don't trust the government, so instead
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you trust technology.
401
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This becomes the basis of the money like the dollar
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is based.
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On trust in human institutions, Bitcoin is based on trust
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in technology. So it's another sign that humans are losing
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trust in other humans and instead trying to base their
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trust on technology. And this is a very dangerous development.
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And what should happen.
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Should we not be innovative with technology and stick to
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the old dollars and stick to the old No.
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You can definitely have digital. Most most dollars already our digital.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I mean hardly anybody uses cash anymore for anything.
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So the question is not whether the money is digital
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or physical. It's all becoming digital. The question is what
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is the basis for the trust in the money. I
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mean with the dollar, people say, oh, I trust human
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institutions like the Federal Reserve or the US government or.
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A trust the dollar, I don't trust.
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Yes, crypto is saying I don't trust human institutions.
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I put my trust only.
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In technology and a world in which humans don't trust
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other humans.
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I mean, that's the whole trend of AI. Like what
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you see.
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You have this of AI arms race, and you talk
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with the people leading the big AI companies and they
427
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tell you we have to move faster and faster because.
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We don't trust the other humans. But then you ask.
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Them, but do you think you'll be able to trust
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the ais you're creating?
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And they say yes.
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And this is the paradox, because we should have more
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trust in other humans than in this completely new alien
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AI intelligence.
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Okay, I'm going to try to get through some more
436
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rapid fires a little bit quicker because I'm getting some science.
437
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I can't really read it on the corner of my eyeland.
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So what wins?
439
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Does religion win or does spirituality win?
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Short answer in history, religion wins because s cirituality doesn't scale.
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But if you want to be happy, religion won't help you.
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Spirituality is more wins justice or revenge.
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Justice at least you can't have a large coal of
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society based on revenge, and we see large cur societies
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all over the world. So despite the power of revenge,
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humans have learned how to seek justice and not revenge.
447
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What do you think will be the outcome?
448
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And is there is there is there a good ending
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or is there is there a peaceful sustainable ending of
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the Israel.
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Conflict?
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Which the policy yes if people won't, I mean, the
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conflict doesn't come from physics of biology, from the laws
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of nature.
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It comes from beliefs in people's minds.
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And if people change their beliefs, the conflict will end.
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But of course it's very difficult to make people change
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their beliefs.
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One thing you never expected to see in your lifetime.
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I don't know. I need to think about that.
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Okay, if you could go back and edit or change
462
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.960
any chapter twenty one lessons I tend.
463
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.799
Once I finish a book, it's over. I mean, otherwise you.
464
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.759
Could you and did it complete, and it's it's a
465
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.079
life of its own now, it's like it's not me anymore.
466
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.799
Okay, Okay. The one prediction of trend that you think
467
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:07.200
you were.
468
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.920
Wrong about one prediction or trend.
469
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.960
I didn't expect that people will give up on the
470
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.160
system that brought peace to the world so quickly and
471
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:22.359
so easily. The early twenty first century was the most
472
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:26.279
peaceful era in human history. It wasn't because of a miracle.
473
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:31.079
It was because we people built institutions and the rule
474
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:34.720
based order, and it has been the biggest political achievement
475
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.240
maybe in history, and people have just gave it up
476
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:40.759
are in the process of just giving it up.
477
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.000
Talk about liberalism and liberal democracies.
478
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:49.240
No, I'm talking about the international system, which includes also autocracies, which.
479
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.480
Indeed, but there was somebody on top of that food chain.
480
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.880
There was one person top of writ is that part.
481
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.240
Of your It's just not just one person.
482
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:59.279
You see it all over the world that people just
483
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.759
I think think again, it's something deep in human nature
484
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.880
that the good things you just take for granted.
485
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.359
Like when your knee is working.
486
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:10.240
Well, you don't think about it, you just know the
487
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.000
knee nothing. Then it starts feeling pain. You remember, oh,
488
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.440
I have a knee. It's the same with the relative
489
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:21.079
order and the peace of the world that people just
490
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.759
took it for granted. Now it's collapsing and instead of order,
491
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:26.799
we get chaos.
492
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.079
And it was so difficult to build. It was an
493
00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.160
imperfect order.
494
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.480
And I didn't I didn't think that people would be
495
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:37.799
so stupid to give up so quickly this achievement.
496
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:38.880
We want the last part.
497
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.319
I'll try to be fast, and you know, we we
498
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.720
got three four minutes. The one historical lesson you want
499
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.559
to read to the following individuals. The one history lesson
500
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:51.000
you'd want to read to Donald Trump.
501
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:58.640
Oh, I'm not sure that he's really interested, but then
502
00:27:58.640 --> 00:27:59.759
you historical lessons.
503
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.559
If there's one thing that you had the opportunity to
504
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:03.039
flag to.
505
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.400
And make him sit down and pay attentional and consume,
506
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:07.039
which lesson would that be?
507
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:10.599
Anecdote from history? One lesson from history?
508
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.240
You know, the most basic lesson that he's going to
509
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:20.279
die like everybody else. So all these pursuits of power
510
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:21.359
and attention.
511
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.119
It will it will lead him nowhere.
512
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:23.799
Okay.
513
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.599
And I think if he remembers his own, you know,
514
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:33.319
his own transience, like I can almost guarantee him that
515
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.319
in a couple of hundred years, nobody would remember him.
516
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.960
Like how many Mughal emperors people in the United States
517
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.119
remember how many Busantine emperors?
518
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:44.519
People remember very.
519
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:49.079
Very few, so they all get forgottenahu hm.
520
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:50.799
The one lesson that you want.
521
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:50.960
Him to.
522
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:54.680
The basic lesson.
523
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:59.079
You know, Joseph been a persecuted minority for two thousand years,
524
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.119
and this was the deepest lesson that Jews learned that
525
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:09.359
you need that don't worship power, that you need more
526
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:15.400
compassion and Nataniao and his people. Everything the Jewish people
527
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:19.759
have learned over two thousand years, they forgot within two generations.
528
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:21.079
Thank you, thank you so much.
529
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.079
You were listening to you Ale Noaharati on Express Conversations.
530
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.599
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