Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?

In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of Equal Justice Works, former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America.

Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today.

She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of being "different" and highlighted how segregated many of our lives still are. Even today, she encounters moments when someone tells her she is the first Black person they've had a meaningful conversation with—evidence of how separation persists.

As CEO of Equal Justice Works—the nation's largest postgraduate public-interest legal fellowship program—Verna works to address a staggering reality: 92% of low-income people's civil legal needs go unmet. She explains how civil legal problems such as eviction, wage garnishment, loss of benefits, and family instability create economic insecurity and can even lead to involvement in the criminal legal system. Unlike criminal cases, there is no guaranteed right to counsel in high-stakes civil matters, leaving millions to navigate life-altering situations alone.

Verna describes how Equal Justice Works partners with law firms, corporations, and foundations to fund fellowships that send lawyers into underserved communities. She highlights the organization's Disaster Resilience Program, created after Hurricane Katrina, which helps communities navigate FEMA claims, insurance issues, document replacement, and preparedness planning.

She also shares her personal journey—from broadcast journalism to law—motivated by fairness and shaped by the civil rights and women's rights movements. Her career has included work on voting rights, women's rights, veterans' benefits, and debt collection reform. She also argued—and won—a 5–4 U.S. Supreme Court case establishing that schools must address known student-on-student sexual harassment under Title IX.

The conversation explores immigration representation, reports of ICE detentions at court hearings, and practical ways non-lawyers can help—through translation, court accompaniment, and local volunteer efforts. Verna encourages listeners to stay informed through reputable sources, vote, and engage locally in school boards and city councils.

She also shares personal reflections on music and film—and clarifies her role as Michelle Obama's oral historian during the early White House years, after the two were law school classmates.

This episode connects race, law, and economic justice—and offers clear examples of how everyday engagement can strengthen democracy.

Time Stamps 00:00 Welcome to Race Convo: Why These Conversations Matter 00:58 Meet Verna Williams + The Big Question: Do We Still Need to Talk About Race? 02:16 Race as a Social Hierarchy: How History Still Shapes Today 03:54 Growing Up Integrated: Verna's Schools, Identity, and Feeling 'Different' 05:15 Segregation in Real Life: 'First Black Person I've Talked To' + Why the Podcast Exists 08:04 What Equal Justice Works Does: Closing the Civil Legal Help Gap 09:52 Why Verna Chose Justice Work: Early Racism, Fairness, and Civil Rights Roots 12:29 Civil vs. Criminal: The Hidden Crisis of No Right to Counsel 17:50 How Equal Justice Works Operates: Fellowships, Funding, and Disaster Resilience 21:00 Verna's Career Path + Arguing a Landmark Title IX Case at the Supreme Court 25:42 Keeping Progress Moving Forward: Training the Next Generation of Public Interest Leaders 26:30 Making Public Interest Careers Possible: Loan Forgiveness & Funding Support 27:31 Why This Work Matters: Building Leaders Through Equal Justice Works 28:46 Training for Empathy: Community-Led Lawyering & Fellow Learning Networks 30:16 Immigrant Justice on the Front Lines: Asylum, ICE at Court & Finding Hope 32:28 How Non-Lawyers Can Help: Volunteering, Translating & Getting Involved 34:11 Where to Plug In: EJW, Legal Services Corp & Other Advocacy Orgs 37:11 Staying Hopeful: History, Collective Action & Cross-Political Coalitions 43:51 Michelle Obama Connection: Serving as Her Oral Historian 45:26 Rapid-Fire Fun: Playlists, Oscar Movies & What to Watch Next 47:43 Final Call to Action: Get Informed, Vote Local & Show Up

Guest Bio

Verna L. Williams (she/her) is the CEO of Equal Justice Works. In her role as CEO, Verna has continued to advance the mission of Equal Justice Works to create opportunities for leaders to transform their passion for equal justice into a lifelong commitment to public service.

Verna brings with her an extensive background of experience teaching and practicing law, as well as researching civil and women's rights. Verna previously served as the dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Law, where she was a professor prior to becoming dean, and taught courses on family law, gender discrimination, and constitutional law. Additionally, she founded and co-directed the Judge Nathaniel Jones Center for Race, Gender, and Social Justice at the University of Cincinnati.

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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.

Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.

Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information

Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)

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