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Welcome back, everybody, to Everyday Equity, Everyday Ways to Make a Change.
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I'm your host, Pooja Kotari, and with me today is someone that I have been wanting to speak to for years, and I am so excited to have on this on today's episode.
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It's Paul LaDepo.
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Paul is the author of It Was Never About That, Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
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Paul is a keynote speaker, a DEIA advocate, and an autism and anti-racist content creator located in Michigan.
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Paul, thank you so much for being here.
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I'm so honored that you're a guest on today's podcast.
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You have such an incredible platform on LinkedIn.
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You educate all of us, honestly.
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I don't know how you do it, but it is always what you read and what we read in your posts is just so compelling.
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It's so well organized and well thought out.
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And thousands of people are just reposting your stuff because it's just so well said.
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So welcome.
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I can't wait to get into it.
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Is there anything that you'd like to add?
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I'm just glad to be here, man.
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I love doing podcasts.
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I love me LinkedIn connections.
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I just, I don't know.
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I yeah, I have a ball.
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So thanks for having me.
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I'm honored to be here.
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Yeah, yeah, I know.
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It was I reached out to you and I was like, gosh, this guy is just so well known on the platform.
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And I don't even know if I'm gonna get a message back.
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And I did, and I'm just so grateful.
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We've had several conversations, and you're we could really honestly talk for hours.
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So let's get started on.
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I want to ask you first about your book.
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The book is called It Was Never About That Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
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Can you tell us about what made you write it?
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What was your motivation?
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So I started writing in the beginning of 2022, and towards the end of 2020, towards the end of that year, people are like, Do you have a book coming out?
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Or you should write a book?
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I'm like, Oh, let's write a book.
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And then I think sometime in 2023, a connection of mine reached out and she says, Hey, you writing a book?
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I'm like, not yet.
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But she offered to help me write a proposal and all that stuff.
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And so I put one together and I had a couple of chapters in mine, and I sent it to her, and I got shot down.
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But like I people could tell me, just keep doing it, doing it, you're doing it.
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And and the reason why I did it because I wanted to focus on, I felt like me doing all this online advocacy.
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One thing I noticed about people is that a lot of people had such a narrow definition of racism.
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They always did define racism as hate and hate this and hate that.
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And and I'm like, it's so much more than hate.
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And I and I remember posting about this to get a good response about it.
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I'm like, let's make this the subject matter, because it's like a lot of people, even black people and brown people, they view racism as such a narrow, it was such a narrow definition of racism.
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Okay, let's tackle this so we can see the bigger picture so we can end this.
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And so you I mean that's just how I got started.
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Yeah.
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And it's like, what does hate even mean?
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Right.
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Hate hate's like a subjective some people's wishing bad, those wishing harm, or it's really disliking somebody.
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And it's like, regardless of how you define hate, it's still narrow because you make it sound like only the the supremacist groups are the ones that are hating and the ones that cause it rape, or some guy who's yelling slurs on a subway or something.
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It's just like this this all is about one emotion, and it's like, really, it's not about that.
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So so yeah, thinking about apathy or just or gaslighting, or just if if you Poojo open up to me, or somebody saying, Hey, me as an Asian or South Asian person, I'm experiencing this.
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If somebody's like, eh, or they gaslight you saying it doesn't exist, and they may not hate you, but their indifference, uh, their gaslighting of their manipulation of the situation doesn't help the in the cycle of racism.
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So they're being racist, or at least they're being accomplished to racist, and hate may or may not even be involved in that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it is so much broader than just stepping outside your door and experiencing violence, although it's that is the most extreme form of hate.
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Yeah.
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I'm not kidding.
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Go ahead.
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I'm all the daffy.
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No worries.
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When you were writing your book and thinking about this concept, who is this book for?
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Who is that need to be like this now?
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The book wasn't for it's not for the thirty the 15, 20, 30 year professional.
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It's more of people that are either new to DEI, maybe sitting on the fence wondering what to do in this during this administration or regime, whatever you want to call it.
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But a seasoned vets are welcome to read it just as maybe a refresher or affirmation of what they feel, or maybe they recommend it to somebody that's newer or starting out.
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And so it's really for the newbies and the un and the indecisive, but experienced people experienced professionals are welcome to read it.
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Yeah, that's mainly the the general population, which is they get it, but we were just digesting all of this anti-DEI kind of propaganda.
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And if you are unsure of how to respond to anti-DEI fallacies, I don't even want to call them arguments, they're just fallacies.
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It sounds like this book is the the start of where she people should be, because you need some sort of foundation to be like, wait, that doesn't sound right.
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Propaganda.
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That's not yeah.
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And there's and so one of my reviewers told me she's like, Yeah, there's so much false information, and like you said, propaganda out there that a lot of people are just like a lot of even educated people are just misled because it's constant for the past six years we've been said this, and then gaslighting and manipulation, which I talked about as toxic behaviors in the book, and then it's just it just muddies the waters and it's confusing, which is what they want.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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So, having grown up in the Midwest, can you let's let's go back in time a little bit to what got you into this work and what personal experiences brought you here?
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So tell us a little bit about that.
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Sure.
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So for me, what got me into this?
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I was an academic advisor at a primarily white institution or PWI as they call it.
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And so I was there and my students were, and I had students that were racially marginalized, some black, Latino, LGBU plus students.
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They come to me and be like, I don't something feels off about this place.
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And so it was as a research one institution, it's a large institution, but it's it wasn't it's very diverse, or at least there's diversity, but it's it's it's in a mo pre a heavily white state, uh mostly white town, conservative values, everybody necessarily conservative politically, but personality is a lot of conservative, and so it's just and so my marginalized students a lot of times felt out of place or just weird or they experienced something they don't know, didn't know who to talk to.
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And so they came, they they would come out to me or they would talk to me about their experiences, and I'm like, okay, so it just shifted my like I don't care about math 241 anymore.
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I want to know what injustices are you facing, people to share your demographic.
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And so I just it kind of like it was like a a big epiphany.
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And so I was like, okay, unless about what classes you take next to rest.
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I don't really give a crap about that anymore.
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But I want to know about racism, sexism, homophobia, and sexual assault, things like that.
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Yeah.
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The real stuff that people and they felt safe enough, or they felt the safety in your office.
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Yeah.
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I'm glad of that, so.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you have these experiences at this PW, this predominantly white institution, and then what happened?
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I So a lot of institutions, particularly predominantly white or extremely white ones, no, they have, or they had at the time, DEI offices and whatnot.
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But it's a lot of it's performative, and so there's staff there, there's people there, they talk about racial equity or whatever, but it's like they say that, but when then what they do is something different.
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And so think about when the D the DI backlash happened in a lot of universities, including that one, nixed their DEI programs and their staff.
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And it's okay, so now you're doing what you are what you already wanted to do.
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So either A, you need an excuse to do it, or B, you're you were tricked by the propaganda.
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I mean, it's both, I don't know.
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But and so it's so it's like I I left I left white-collar DEI because it just it feels it felt and feels so performative.
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And so it just it's like they want the diversity, but they don't want the equity.
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And so it's yeah, you can have people there by all means, but if you don't address any barriers, if you don't address any historical or present barriers, if you don't address any modern-day experiences, if you don't consider needs, then they're either gonna leave or they're gonna or they're gonna have the white knuckle the whole experience while they're there.
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Yeah, and that continues to stay.
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People want the multicultural look in the organization, but the everyday racism, ableism, homophobia, that that's that takes a long time to change culture, and yeah, most people don't want to invest in that.
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No, it is just it's all this is showing me how change is necessary, change happens, but change is hard.
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And a lot of people simply don't want to change, and that and this is all this stuff's going on, they don't want to change, they don't want to examine any internal biases, they don't want to examine any systems that cause these problems, they just want what's easy.
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They love the people that say, Oh, all lives matter, and we're all one family, and we all bleed van, and they they just they love the easy way out, simple answers because it doesn't challenge them.
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But you get a guy like me that talks about patriarchy and white supremacy and heterosexism and I don't know, and so it's just it's just like get this guy out of here, you know.
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Yeah, yeah, it's too uncomfortable.
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So when you're when you're talking to audiences, let's say, as a speaker or in groups, and you're talking about these concepts of equity, belonging, everyday racism.
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When you're talking to what challenges are your is your audience facing in kind of like bridging the gap of understanding?
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I think a challenge they face is probably I would say cognitive dissonance, like going against what they were taught coming up, or what they've been taught by people they look up to.
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And so I think about like last week I made a post about if black kids are young enough, or if black kids are old enough to experience racism, white kids are old enough to learn about it, and a number of white people got defensive, and I can tell that they were raised by the parents to either be colorblind or they're listening to, I don't know, Ben Carson or GOP black people, or just GOP people in general that are like telling them, oh, racism is a thing of the past, racism is gone, and so and that and the and like that cognitive distance that comes up because they're you show up, you're taking your time out of your schedule to show up on my post to criticize me as like you could have scrolled on or you could have blocked me, you could have hit the X button on your news feed, but you chose to come into my post to lecture me, and then I can tell that you're triggered by this.
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And so it's like I must have said something that hit hard or I shut something up because you're responding to this, and I was laughing.
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People say, Who cares?
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Or like, but you responded to this when and so and then they continue to argue with the people that try to call them in.
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So it's well, not only did you say something, but then I try to call you in, or other people try to call you in, but you're arguing with them as clearly this is struck a nerve with you.
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Yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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Can we talk a little bit because you you are prolific on posting?
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You're it's stunning how prolific you are and also materially so substantive.
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I Paul, I really don't know how you sustain it.
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It's just a wealth of information that you consistently have, and clearly it's you.
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It's not like it's you.
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So with 62 plus thousand followers, how do you manage one the resistance that you get?
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Let's start there.
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How do you manage that?
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I mean I don't really know.
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I'm just part of its stubbornness, part of it's I hate to call I don't really like calling autism a superpower because some people call neurodivergency a superpower.
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But I will say a strength of autism, it's just like if I'm interested in a subject, I just deep dive, I rabbit hole, I don't really get tired of it.
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And so I don't get tired of talking about DI or racism or anti-racism, and I'm stubborn, and it's just I just feel like it's gotta be done.
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There are times I do get fatigued and I take a little break, then I come back, but it's just I don't know, it's just part of like when you have a lot of artistic people or social justice or have social justice bent, and so because of fairness, and then I just dive into the interests of the subject of interest, and I learn as all as I can, and I pass all the info and I just keep at it.
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And I realize there are people out there that are probably that hate me or they make fun of me on different platforms.
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Maybe they do, I don't know, but some of the people I follow they get made fun of, and so and I realize that LinkedIn itself, it's it's they put a clamp on controversial subjects.
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I know we're not for that I'd have even more followers because viewership is down, and so but it's just I just I don't know.
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I just feel like it's birds fly, fish swim.
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I gotta lecture, so it's just who I am.
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Yeah, yeah, indeed, and you're excellent at it.
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So when you get people because it's clear that you let's say it this way there's many people who are also prolific on platforms who don't manage their comments personally, who won't engage personally, and maybe have other people working on it so that they don't have to deal with the kind of emotional hurricane that people can break.
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Yeah.
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How do you handle it?
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Yeah.
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So it's just I know I I just pay attention to my limits.
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Sometimes I have the energy to respond or I'll have a conversation, and I realize and I go into it realizing that look, this person that's upset with me or disagrees with me, I'm chances I'm not gonna change them.
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I respond one for the people that are sitting on the fence or that do agree with me, so they can see an example of what the what's the right thing to say.
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So I do it for my audience, and two, I do it to boost engagement because the more you argue with the post, the better engagement it does.
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And so I even tell I've even told I've told people this I'm like, look, you can argue all you want to, the more you argue, the more that you only boost engagement.
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They don't learn from it.
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They keep arguing.
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I'm like, all right, what's your problem?
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But it's so I do it one for my audience, people that maybe sitting on the page and they're maybe wondering how do I respond to this, and two, I do it to boost engagement.
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And it's and so and but there are times where I just I've had enough and I just block the person, or I just delete their their comments.
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I don't like some people block instantly for no matter what, and I don't do that because but like I I do I'm not ashamed of blocking people in general.
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What do you mean?
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Oh no, but yeah, so that that's how I manage.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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The and people who are just dragging it down ought to be blocked anyway.
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Like you give people a chance, you do engage, and but you don't take it personally, and I think that's a really important aspect of all of this.
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None of it is personal.
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Exactly.
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In fact, none of this, this whole racism and classism and homophobia, and all the ways that white supremacy oppresses us can affect us personally, but none of it is personal in a way, you know what I mean?
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Yeah, so it affects us, but it's not because we are who we are, it's because of the systems of oppression we live in.
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Exactly.
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And I think for some people that just so used to it that challenge it feels odd.
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If we call out sexual or domestic violence, there are people who are so used to either covering for it or they see in their families or it's either bad behavior that that like we've calling it out, you've disturbed their comfort.
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And so, and so it's just like if you go up in a family and you see a relative that has abused somebody, or you have a friend group and one of the friends is harming or abusing somebody, and then you call it out, it's okay.
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Now they're saying the quiet part loud, I don't like this because now they're bringing the issue to light, and I don't like the peak elephant being addressed.
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And it's the same dynamic.
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And I talk about that in my book.
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Like it, me having worked in sexual assault and intimate partner violence prevention, it's a lot of it's a similar dynamic.
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It's a power and control dynamic, there's a comfort level dynamic when people speak out.
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People who've been quietly supporting it or just stuffing it on the carpet, they don't want their negative peace rocked.
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And so, and that's why we're paying as the bad guy.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I think there's also kind of disbel a sh a mixture of disbelief, shame, yeah, and fear when people who are caught up in these systems and upholding them see other people confidently speaking out about it.
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It doesn't, it not doesn't necessarily motivate other people to join the ranks.
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I think there's some in-between stages that people go through of, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen to that person for speaking out?
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I never spoke out.
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I don't think I'm capable of speaking out, or they think maybe I should have and I didn't, and then there's this added shame factor.
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And I feel like there's all of these multiple barriers to entry that are kind of self-induced, but of course, our systems around us have put them on us as obstacles to joining the resistance and and really fighting against all of these systems of oppression.
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There's a weird shame or guilt about not speaking up because actually, I know we we haven't really talked about this, but you have kids, I have young kids as well.
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What is it like in my household?
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We're constantly talking about white supremacy, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, all of those things.
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My kids are under the age of 10, both of them, and they're both girls, and we are constantly talking about that.
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Even my my kid the other day, my older one said everything is about a man, like fire man, police man, even the word person, it's per son.
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Yeah.
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How come it's like that?
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And I mean, there might be this gender, there's such gendered language, and even our oldest is eight, and he'll repeat something that he saw he either heard a friend say or on social media, but he's like, Oh dad, mom's your woman, and we're like, Stop.
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We don't there's no ownership here.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:33.200
But it's like kids at an early age just pick up gender norms and x-ray and stereotypes, and indeed.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:39.200
It's just it's it's so amazing how early it happened, and even unintentionally, like it's it's just I don't know.
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:50.880
I it that you have to like stop and tell the kid, hey, we don't say you're a woman because you don't own her, and you don't say woman when you're trying to catch a girl or woman's attention.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.759
We don't say that, so it's just yeah, it's an uphill battle.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.039
And sometimes you catch it in yourself, and then you catch other things.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.960
Like we had to explain him what racism is.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.720
And I know that him being biracial.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.319
At one school, they talked about slavery.
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:16.480
He came home crying because he's lighter skinned, and we had and we like realize there's two identities working, but he's light skinned, and so and so actually the oldest is lighter than my youngest, as you saw, and so sometimes he passes for white one and so.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.839
But it's just that we see that early, we see white fragility earlier on.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.119
My biracial son comes home crying after learning about slavery, and then thinking that white people were bad when so.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.799
So yeah, it's something else.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.680
Yeah.
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:50.240
What I think is remarkable is at eight years old, kids can when you tell them the the rationale or and the history behind something, they can carry that with them and and into their e even though they're only eight, they can carry it into their analysis.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:51.759
Even as an eight-year-old.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:57.359
And I'm talking to people in our audience who might have kids who are like, I have no idea how to get started on this.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.359
The thing is, you gotta just talk about it.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.279
Yeah, I and I talk about that in my book too.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:06.720
When I talk about there's I think it's a chapter called DEI at home or someone or family affairs.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.519
So I talk about it's okay to start small.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.160
One, you don't have to have all the answers, and two, start small and just work from there.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.839
And if you don't know something, be you can be honest and say you don't know.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.200
Because I say that as a parent, you're the expert, not me.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.160
Like to somebody's kids, they don't know me, they don't care, but their parents are the expert, even if they aren't.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:31.519
And so just educate yourself, don't be ashamed of saying no, start small and just let it grow.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:47.599
So I think it will go well because I like thinking a lot of white families, a lot of white people, they grow up, they don't have racial literacy and they don't know how to have conversations and they get upset when people like me talk about racism because I triggered something because their parents never they never developed a racial stamina.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:59.680
I'm thinking about any topic, any taboo talk or whatever, like addiction, sex, you know, race, sexual assault, domestic partner, intimate partner violence, all those things are like hard topics.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.160
Yeah.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:11.119
And so if you're not, if you don't, if you didn't grow up learning how to talk about those things, even as an adult, a well-educated, well-respected adult, you just it just hits a button that you just give them in fight, flight, or freeze mode.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.079
And so yeah, totally.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:19.200
No one's expecting you to teach math to a first grader and start at calculus.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:19.519
Yeah.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.039
Just starting whatever you know about it.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.759
However, you know about it, it's the right way to go about it.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:35.279
And I think when you and I say just start, I think it can still scramble people's brains of what where and how.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.200
And no, we literally mean just say a sentence.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:39.759
Yeah.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.440
One example I saw, it was it was shortly after George Floyd's murder.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:50.319
And I think this somebody asked this white, I could tell he was a a white rural conserv or white conservative, maybe rural, I don't know.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.960
But they asked him a question about what would you teach your kid about color or race or whatever.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.599
And the black woman was like kind of like watching his response as she she started off nervous.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:05.920
And then he with the answer to his beautiful is like, yeah, we just teach a kid that people come in all colors and all of them are beautiful.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.279
And then that was beautiful itself.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.720
It was a simple response.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:21.519
He wasn't an anti-race, I don't know, a DI anti-race expert, but it's just a simple response like, hey, we teach our daughter that God created kids in all colors, and all of it's beautiful, all of it's wonderful.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.240
And that was just that was itself was amazing.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:29.680
And that's not what you, you know, it wasn't a Pulitzer Prize or Nobel Prize winning answer, but you know what?
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.160
For a kid, that's what a white kid needs to hear.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.799
Yeah.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:38.559
And same, which body shapes, yes, abilities, disability, whatever.
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.119
We all are born for yes.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.279
Religions, orientations, sizes, colors, nationalities, languages, it's all good.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.079
It's natural.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.119
It's like nobody, most of that people don't have control over.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.680
And so I in fact, I even heard what come to faith.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.119
There's such a thing as faith orientation.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:55.839
I'm like, huh.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.519
I never thought about that, but it makes sense.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.920
It's just some people just have that bent, but they don't.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.200
Yes.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.240
Fascinating.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.119
I was reading this, the intro to this book.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:16.480
I the title is Algorithms of Oppression, How Search Engines Reinforce Racism, and it's by Safia Umoja Noble.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:23.039
And in her introduction, she thanks, I can't get to it right now, but she thanks her mom who passed.
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:31.599
And she writes in the intro When You're Thanking Everybody, she thanks her mom, who has passed away, who was not white.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:24:05.599
And she thanks her mom for raising her who a black girl, now a black woman, and teaching her how to love her blackness, and that she is smart and adding the word black to her identity intentionally to say you are a smart black woman and how impressive as a child, impressive of an idea that was that she grew up with this confidence and self-esteem that was just modeled, bolstered by her her mom who wasn't black.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:21.839
And when we talk about okay, white families talking about racism or in your book encouraging people to let we need to just talk about this, not in this like extreme hate way, but in this regular everyday way, look what happens when you do as a non-black person.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:31.680
You create people with high self-esteem, high confidence, who know their worth, who then go on to leaving lead incredible lives, write incredible books.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:38.720
And the thing about our society is that whiteness is already validated and celebrated.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:45.039
And so in your home as a non-white person, we have to celebrate, intentionally push that.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.079
Like you are a mate, an amazing crown woman.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:49.759
You are an amazing black woman.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:59.200
And say that over and over again so that it that is internalized, so that we don't have to learn that as adults, but rather we grow up with it just like other people who are affirmed.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.400
Yeah, I think you hit the nail head when you said the society already values whiteness.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.960
And it's funny you mentioned that because a lot of white people, there come a number of white people come up with my posts who are like, what's bad to be white?
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:25.039
And it's like, no, yeah, you hear there are people that are upset, and yes, there are people that legitimately hate white people, but you need to understand that whiteness is still valued because look at all the disparities, health disparities, income disparities, housing disparities, educational disparities, not to mention in entertainment and fashion and beauty.
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:26.640
Who are the most of the models?
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.079
What's the standard of beauty?
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:52.720
I remember a guy, uh a friend of mine in college, he was from, I don't know what part of India he was from, but he was telling me about how he was taught to stay away from the blacks, because I'm guessing the image from TV or white Christian Christian missionaries claims the idea that black people were bad, and so and then the stories about people, and then of course the caste system in South Asia, like darker versus lighter, and so it's like whiteness is still highly valued.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.119
Yeah, you may be criticized, but at the end of the day, whiteness is still the gold standard.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.160
Yep, yep.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:15.279
We several years ago we heard about the push to add caste to the anti-discrimination statutes on the West Coast, like in Silicon Valley, because nobody knows division as a s as an Indian person than Indians.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:16.000
Yeah.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:21.759
We are so good at classification, casteism, classism, race.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.519
We are so good at it because it's um so embedded in our culture.
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.559
And then that's exactly what happens here.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:46.640
You tr you bring all all these I you know hate this term, but uh upper caste, you know, Brahmin Hindus, and they're the majority of the people working as in Silicon Valley and who have been brought over, and then who do they just bring over, also?
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.279
Similarly situated upper caste Brahmin Hindus.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:49.759
Yeah.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:03.920
So you're not getting any one, you're not getting any diversity, but you're reinforcing the casteism not only back there, but now you're bringing casteism here, which we already have, but now in this other very nuanced as very specific to one country.
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:05.279
Yeah, it's really weird.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:11.599
It's just man, after the castle in India start from is that influenced by British colonialism, was that something that existed before?
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:13.599
It was way this is thousands.
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:18.000
Okay, and and of course reinforced and perverted even more by the Bracken.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:18.400
I see.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:19.279
And that makes sense.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:20.720
But it's yeah, it's just I don't know.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:32.559
I remember when I dated uh a Puerto Rican woman, she told woman, she told me how in Latin America colorism, there's a cast that's not maybe not similar to Indians, but it's in Latin America, it's darker skinned people or have a hard time getting jobs or seems less beautiful.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:47.119
And I did a Puerto Rican woman, she said her dad, because her dad had more black features, yeah, it was hard for him to get work because she was like middle, she was like her mom was light-skinned, and so you see her, she was like not quite light-skinned, but her dad was like dark like me.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:53.680
And so when her dad had difficult finding word because people were like, oh, he's dark, darker, didn't want to hire him.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:03.599
But it's like the effect of slavery and colonization in Latin America, you have the the color stratification, I guess, caste, not quite like India, but still it's racial hierarchy.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:05.119
Yep, yep, indeed.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:06.240
Indeed.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.839
Indeed.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.079
Alive and all through European colonization.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.839
It's really remarkable.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:22.960
Okay, so I want to talk about earlier uh offline, we were talking about a kind of emotional intelligence and kind of developing that.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.599
Can we talk about that and how it comes up in your book?
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah, so a number of years ago, I don't I was having a conversation with uh a colleague of mine, and we caught up on LinkedIn.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.559
I don't remember what caused the conversation, but we were just chatting and he brought up something about something that stuck with me.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.839
He's like emotional intelligence is key to anti-racism.
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:41.680
But he said this back in 2020.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.839
I'm like, wow, and then but um as the years moved on, he was he's right.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:52.960
And so I think a lot so think of the DEI backlash, that's all the emotions that were stirred up that led to the DI backlash.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:29:00.880
If people were more emotionally intelligent, then I don't know would have been as bad because emotional intelligence, essentially you're asking yourself, what am I feeling?
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:01.839
Why am I feeling it?
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.200
And how can I navigate out of this?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:15.039
And the whole and George Floyd was murdered and the attempt to re to bring equity in schools and anti-racism, that caused a knee-jerk reaction in a lot of white people, even some people of color again, like, oh, you must hate white people now.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:24.160
And CRT in schools, when CRT is clearly a government graduate level course, and it's like they don't teach kids about racism and the legal system.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:32.720
Yeah, you forget about it, but that's what's that's why we're here now because that that that started that that it started with CRT, then it moved to DEI.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.720
That was orchestrated, but a lot of people did not have the emotional intelligence to unpack the fallout from George Floyd.
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:52.160
And so there was a brief awakening, and then the far right seized that and just took and just took it the opposite, and they pushed that pin on so far the other direction, and they did it by catering to people's fears and prejudices.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:59.839
And so And I write about that, I write about I write about that in my book as well, and so it's just like I I don't what you see in my post is what you see in the book.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:01.039
I don't spare anything.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:14.559
I backed up even more on that's because I don't have to worry about anything taken down or censored and so and so yeah, what you see in the post is what is going what you see in the is what you're gonna see in the book, and even more so in the book, and so yeah.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:25.920
I love that because the the extremely recent history of the of 2020, and I really cringe when people are like, I really woke up in 2020.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.519
It's like what the hell was going on before?
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:34.720
What it's everyday violence, like why now?
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:36.160
Why not 2013?
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:37.279
Why not with Eric Gurner?
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:38.559
Why not with Rodney King?
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.680
Why are why Sandra Blenn, why are we Billy Riots?
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:43.440
Yeah, what just happened to you?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:50.240
Yeah, like people were making calls, my wife was getting calls like I'm so sorry for that this racist violence has happened.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.000
I was like, why are people texting me?
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:53.599
This is so weird.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:57.519
What I got a I got such a strange response, right?
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:07.920
Yeah, I got after George Floyd was murdered, and after the, I guess I'm gonna say riots in Minneapolis, and I lived there at the time, I got a text from a a gaming buddy of mine.
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:09.680
He's like, Yeah, I want to make sure you're okay.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:11.599
I'm like, Yeah, I'm doing all right.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.480
It wasn't the whole city wasn't burned down.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:17.440
It was live a number of miles away from all that.
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.680
And the vast majority of the city was fine.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:27.119
It's like there was a good, there was a chunk that was affected, but like the city wasn't the media thought, oh, the Twitter cities, Minnesota got burned to the ground.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.039
The city wasn't burned to the ground.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.359
I lived in Minneapolis, most of the city was fine.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:32.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:46.160
I was like, if you want to text us or this household about all of this stuff, maybe apologize for like the constant helicopters and the noise that you can't even sleep because we're being surveilled during that period.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:48.319
Yeah.
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.079
At least commiserate in that way, but it's very interesting that.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:02.799
And so I really appreciate that your book kind of gets into that very recent history where people still haven't honestly comprehended what the heck happened, why was that response?
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:14.960
Around that time I got 50 calls around 50 from companies and organizations that were like hurry, give us a proposal.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:17.759
We need to have some anti-racist thing happen.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.279
And I was like, Okay, I understand you want it done now.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.559
So what have you done up until this thing?
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:29.359
But we're and I was like, it let me I'll recommend you some other people.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:30.880
We're not gonna work well together.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.920
Yeah, it kind of amuses me and it annoys me.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:35.039
It's a weird combo.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:39.119
It's like you wait until crisis mode, and now you're like doing this.
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:47.200
And I remember that because I remember all these that was the year the pandemic started, and I saw a bunch of DI positions get eliminated because of the recession.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:51.680
And then once George Floyd was murdered, all his organizations started having DEI positions again.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.079
So I'm like, so okay, so it wasn't about money, was it?
00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:01.680
You wanted to explain so it's just now all this DI position and DI that and then all this stuff, and it's like, you know what?
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.559
You guys should be charged double for waiting until crisis mode for doing it as a lesson.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:26.000
Or need, I mean you probably won't learn that lesson, but for the any race people that are working their butts off that have been saying this for years and that have had to explain this again, they should really charge you double or triple because you're now doing this, you're in crisis mode, and I doing this work, I get why a lot of wives get upset with her husbands, it's kind of like she's already told you five times, and you're like, what?
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:26.400
What's going on?
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:27.519
And I'm like, oh wait, yes.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.519
Like, she's already told you four or five times before, and you're now getting it.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:32.400
You're not getting it.
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:39.039
So it's like it is I feel and part of me if this is wrong, but just I just feel like it makes me understand the frustration a bit more.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:50.559
Because yeah, I mean how long have straight women been trying to explain or women generally trying to explain things to men, whether it's in the interim partner relationship or just in general, when it's huh, what I don't know, understand.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:54.079
Oh, got it, but it's like Yeah, I don't know, man.
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:55.519
Where was your head?
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.039
So the emotional intelligence, very important part.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:06.160
And also Derek Bell wrote about this of interest convergence.
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:28.400
Once you get the the interest of white people aligned with the anti-racism goals of people of color and but especially black communities, especially, when those interests converge, then there is some forward progress, but it's never the progress that actually is true for what anti-racist people want.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:41.920
That that interest convergence really is so heavily weighted on the white fragility that yeah, it seems like we're moving forward, but it's only because of our interests have aligned in this one moment that we can move forward.
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:49.599
It's in theory and really leads to unfortunate mediocrity instead of the progressive push that we need.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.119
Okay, we've talked for for a while.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:35:06.320
I want to ask you is there something that you want our audience to know if there is a one way that they could enter equity, equity work, or see the work that we do, and especially the kind of the way you see it.
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:13.039
What is one way people can just one step that they could move in any part of their life?
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.000
Their emotional intelligence, their understanding of anti-racism.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.840
Like every everybody has a phone, just whatever has a smartphone.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.719
Just get on social media and follow people.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:39.920
So whether it's Facebook, LinkedIn, Thread, maybe not X, but just Instagram, Substack, there's people out there that are fighting for equality and equity, whether it's racial, gender, sexuality, religion, whatever, persons with disabilities, the people out there that are fighting it.
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.480
So you just gotta get on social media and follow them.
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:51.280
And once you follow these people, you may or may not agree or though, you may or may not agree everything what they say, but it's start with the subject matter experts and just and follow them, listen to them.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:01.360
What is good about social media is that when I've joined new platforms, if I type in one person, they'll say, Oh, people would follow this person, also follow this person as well.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.519
And so they'll try to the algorithm will try to match you if you go looking for it.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:07.679
Absolutely.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:08.719
Excellent.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.760
Just start with passive education, and there's no risk.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:21.039
I guess the risk is that you fall into the wrong hands, but follow the people that are really responsible in this work, like you.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.519
So connect with Paul LaDipo on LinkedIn.
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.840
Are you anywhere else where people can should find you?
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.039
Yeah, I'm on.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.320
I just started on Substack, so uh when I'm on Substack and Threads, those two.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.440
Excellent.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:34.239
Great.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:39.519
Paul's book is called It Was Never About That.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:44.400
Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.239
It comes out next month.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:47.920
Paul, you're amazing.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:49.199
I'm so glad we got to talk.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:50.320
So glad we're connected.
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:51.760
Selfish for me.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:52.800
I am so happy.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:53.599
We know each other.
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:54.880
I really appreciate you.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.920
You're amazing.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.280
You do really great work.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.760
And I'm excited to continue our conversation.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:00.639
Yeah.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:03.760
Okay, everybody, that's it for today.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.239
We'll see you next time on Everyday Equity.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.840
Thanks for joining us on Everyday Equity, Everyday Ways to Make a Change.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.119
If today's conversation inspired you, keep the momentum going.
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:26.239
Connect with us on LinkedIn at Boundless Awareness, subscribe to our YouTube at Boundless Awareness, and explore more free resources to support your anti-oppression journey at BoundlessAwareness.com.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.920
Remember, progress isn't about perfection.
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:36.880
It's about showing up every day with curiosity, compassion, and the courage to do a little better.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:44.159
I'm Puja Kotari, and I can't wait to keep learning and growing with you right here on Everyday Equity.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.000
Welcome back, everybody, to Everyday Equity, Everyday Ways to Make a Change.
00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:14.240
I'm your host, Pooja Kotari, and with me today is someone that I have been wanting to speak to for years, and I am so excited to have on this on today's episode.
00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:15.839
It's Paul LaDepo.
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:23.440
Paul is the author of It Was Never About That, Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:31.519
Paul is a keynote speaker, a DEIA advocate, and an autism and anti-racist content creator located in Michigan.
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Paul, thank you so much for being here.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:36.079
I'm so honored that you're a guest on today's podcast.
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You have such an incredible platform on LinkedIn.
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You educate all of us, honestly.
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I don't know how you do it, but it is always what you read and what we read in your posts is just so compelling.
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It's so well organized and well thought out.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:57.520
And thousands of people are just reposting your stuff because it's just so well said.
00:00:57.920 --> 00:00:58.799
So welcome.
00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:00.399
I can't wait to get into it.
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Is there anything that you'd like to add?
00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:05.040
I'm just glad to be here, man.
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:06.000
I love doing podcasts.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:07.439
I love me LinkedIn connections.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:08.159
I just, I don't know.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:09.200
I yeah, I have a ball.
00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:10.000
So thanks for having me.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:11.040
I'm honored to be here.
00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:12.640
Yeah, yeah, I know.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:18.319
It was I reached out to you and I was like, gosh, this guy is just so well known on the platform.
00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:21.040
And I don't even know if I'm gonna get a message back.
00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:22.879
And I did, and I'm just so grateful.
00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:27.920
We've had several conversations, and you're we could really honestly talk for hours.
00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:29.840
So let's get started on.
00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:32.480
I want to ask you first about your book.
00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:38.159
The book is called It Was Never About That Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:40.560
Can you tell us about what made you write it?
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:41.760
What was your motivation?
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:48.400
So I started writing in the beginning of 2022, and towards the end of 2020, towards the end of that year, people are like, Do you have a book coming out?
00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:49.200
Or you should write a book?
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:50.560
I'm like, Oh, let's write a book.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:55.599
And then I think sometime in 2023, a connection of mine reached out and she says, Hey, you writing a book?
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I'm like, not yet.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.959
But she offered to help me write a proposal and all that stuff.
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And so I put one together and I had a couple of chapters in mine, and I sent it to her, and I got shot down.
00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.159
But like I people could tell me, just keep doing it, doing it, you're doing it.
00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:13.680
And and the reason why I did it because I wanted to focus on, I felt like me doing all this online advocacy.
00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.840
One thing I noticed about people is that a lot of people had such a narrow definition of racism.
00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.680
They always did define racism as hate and hate this and hate that.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.560
And and I'm like, it's so much more than hate.
00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.759
And I and I remember posting about this to get a good response about it.
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I'm like, let's make this the subject matter, because it's like a lot of people, even black people and brown people, they view racism as such a narrow, it was such a narrow definition of racism.
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Okay, let's tackle this so we can see the bigger picture so we can end this.
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And so you I mean that's just how I got started.
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Yeah.
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And it's like, what does hate even mean?
00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:50.159
Right.
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Hate hate's like a subjective some people's wishing bad, those wishing harm, or it's really disliking somebody.
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And it's like, regardless of how you define hate, it's still narrow because you make it sound like only the the supremacist groups are the ones that are hating and the ones that cause it rape, or some guy who's yelling slurs on a subway or something.
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.280
It's just like this this all is about one emotion, and it's like, really, it's not about that.
00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:24.159
So so yeah, thinking about apathy or just or gaslighting, or just if if you Poojo open up to me, or somebody saying, Hey, me as an Asian or South Asian person, I'm experiencing this.
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If somebody's like, eh, or they gaslight you saying it doesn't exist, and they may not hate you, but their indifference, uh, their gaslighting of their manipulation of the situation doesn't help the in the cycle of racism.
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So they're being racist, or at least they're being accomplished to racist, and hate may or may not even be involved in that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it is so much broader than just stepping outside your door and experiencing violence, although it's that is the most extreme form of hate.
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.199
Yeah.
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I'm not kidding.
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Go ahead.
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I'm all the daffy.
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No worries.
00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.479
When you were writing your book and thinking about this concept, who is this book for?
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Who is that need to be like this now?
00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.439
The book wasn't for it's not for the thirty the 15, 20, 30 year professional.
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It's more of people that are either new to DEI, maybe sitting on the fence wondering what to do in this during this administration or regime, whatever you want to call it.
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:27.839
But a seasoned vets are welcome to read it just as maybe a refresher or affirmation of what they feel, or maybe they recommend it to somebody that's newer or starting out.
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:37.279
And so it's really for the newbies and the un and the indecisive, but experienced people experienced professionals are welcome to read it.
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Yeah, that's mainly the the general population, which is they get it, but we were just digesting all of this anti-DEI kind of propaganda.
00:04:48.639 --> 00:05:01.040
And if you are unsure of how to respond to anti-DEI fallacies, I don't even want to call them arguments, they're just fallacies.
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:09.600
It sounds like this book is the the start of where she people should be, because you need some sort of foundation to be like, wait, that doesn't sound right.
00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:10.480
Propaganda.
00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:11.600
That's not yeah.
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:35.839
And there's and so one of my reviewers told me she's like, Yeah, there's so much false information, and like you said, propaganda out there that a lot of people are just like a lot of even educated people are just misled because it's constant for the past six years we've been said this, and then gaslighting and manipulation, which I talked about as toxic behaviors in the book, and then it's just it just muddies the waters and it's confusing, which is what they want.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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So, having grown up in the Midwest, can you let's let's go back in time a little bit to what got you into this work and what personal experiences brought you here?
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So tell us a little bit about that.
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Sure.
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So for me, what got me into this?
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I was an academic advisor at a primarily white institution or PWI as they call it.
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And so I was there and my students were, and I had students that were racially marginalized, some black, Latino, LGBU plus students.
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:11.199
They come to me and be like, I don't something feels off about this place.
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And so it was as a research one institution, it's a large institution, but it's it wasn't it's very diverse, or at least there's diversity, but it's it's it's in a mo pre a heavily white state, uh mostly white town, conservative values, everybody necessarily conservative politically, but personality is a lot of conservative, and so it's just and so my marginalized students a lot of times felt out of place or just weird or they experienced something they don't know, didn't know who to talk to.
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And so they came, they they would come out to me or they would talk to me about their experiences, and I'm like, okay, so it just shifted my like I don't care about math 241 anymore.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.480
I want to know what injustices are you facing, people to share your demographic.
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And so I just it kind of like it was like a a big epiphany.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:58.000
And so I was like, okay, unless about what classes you take next to rest.
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I don't really give a crap about that anymore.
00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:05.279
But I want to know about racism, sexism, homophobia, and sexual assault, things like that.
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:06.160
Yeah.
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The real stuff that people and they felt safe enough, or they felt the safety in your office.
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:13.279
Yeah.
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:15.120
I'm glad of that, so.
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Yeah.
00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:17.040
Yeah.
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:24.639
So you have these experiences at this PW, this predominantly white institution, and then what happened?
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I So a lot of institutions, particularly predominantly white or extremely white ones, no, they have, or they had at the time, DEI offices and whatnot.
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But it's a lot of it's performative, and so there's staff there, there's people there, they talk about racial equity or whatever, but it's like they say that, but when then what they do is something different.
00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:53.199
And so think about when the D the DI backlash happened in a lot of universities, including that one, nixed their DEI programs and their staff.
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:57.360
And it's okay, so now you're doing what you are what you already wanted to do.
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So either A, you need an excuse to do it, or B, you're you were tricked by the propaganda.
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:02.959
I mean, it's both, I don't know.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:13.439
But and so it's so it's like I I left I left white-collar DEI because it just it feels it felt and feels so performative.
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And so it just it's like they want the diversity, but they don't want the equity.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:38.080
And so it's yeah, you can have people there by all means, but if you don't address any barriers, if you don't address any historical or present barriers, if you don't address any modern-day experiences, if you don't consider needs, then they're either gonna leave or they're gonna or they're gonna have the white knuckle the whole experience while they're there.
00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.960
Yeah, and that continues to stay.
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People want the multicultural look in the organization, but the everyday racism, ableism, homophobia, that that's that takes a long time to change culture, and yeah, most people don't want to invest in that.
00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:02.559
No, it is just it's all this is showing me how change is necessary, change happens, but change is hard.
00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:15.279
And a lot of people simply don't want to change, and that and this is all this stuff's going on, they don't want to change, they don't want to examine any internal biases, they don't want to examine any systems that cause these problems, they just want what's easy.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:24.159
They love the people that say, Oh, all lives matter, and we're all one family, and we all bleed van, and they they just they love the easy way out, simple answers because it doesn't challenge them.
00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:34.240
But you get a guy like me that talks about patriarchy and white supremacy and heterosexism and I don't know, and so it's just it's just like get this guy out of here, you know.
00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.000
Yeah, yeah, it's too uncomfortable.
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:56.799
So when you're when you're talking to audiences, let's say, as a speaker or in groups, and you're talking about these concepts of equity, belonging, everyday racism.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:03.759
When you're talking to what challenges are your is your audience facing in kind of like bridging the gap of understanding?
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:14.080
I think a challenge they face is probably I would say cognitive dissonance, like going against what they were taught coming up, or what they've been taught by people they look up to.
00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:56.080
And so I think about like last week I made a post about if black kids are young enough, or if black kids are old enough to experience racism, white kids are old enough to learn about it, and a number of white people got defensive, and I can tell that they were raised by the parents to either be colorblind or they're listening to, I don't know, Ben Carson or GOP black people, or just GOP people in general that are like telling them, oh, racism is a thing of the past, racism is gone, and so and that and the and like that cognitive distance that comes up because they're you show up, you're taking your time out of your schedule to show up on my post to criticize me as like you could have scrolled on or you could have blocked me, you could have hit the X button on your news feed, but you chose to come into my post to lecture me, and then I can tell that you're triggered by this.
00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:02.639
And so it's like I must have said something that hit hard or I shut something up because you're responding to this, and I was laughing.
00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:03.519
People say, Who cares?
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:09.200
Or like, but you responded to this when and so and then they continue to argue with the people that try to call them in.
00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:16.960
So it's well, not only did you say something, but then I try to call you in, or other people try to call you in, but you're arguing with them as clearly this is struck a nerve with you.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:18.000
Yeah.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:19.279
Oh yeah.
00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.919
Can we talk a little bit because you you are prolific on posting?
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:32.720
You're it's stunning how prolific you are and also materially so substantive.
00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.840
I Paul, I really don't know how you sustain it.
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:42.240
It's just a wealth of information that you consistently have, and clearly it's you.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.840
It's not like it's you.
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:56.159
So with 62 plus thousand followers, how do you manage one the resistance that you get?
00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:57.919
Let's start there.
00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.120
How do you manage that?
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:00.639
I mean I don't really know.
00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:07.360
I'm just part of its stubbornness, part of it's I hate to call I don't really like calling autism a superpower because some people call neurodivergency a superpower.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:14.080
But I will say a strength of autism, it's just like if I'm interested in a subject, I just deep dive, I rabbit hole, I don't really get tired of it.
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:22.159
And so I don't get tired of talking about DI or racism or anti-racism, and I'm stubborn, and it's just I just feel like it's gotta be done.
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:42.559
There are times I do get fatigued and I take a little break, then I come back, but it's just I don't know, it's just part of like when you have a lot of artistic people or social justice or have social justice bent, and so because of fairness, and then I just dive into the interests of the subject of interest, and I learn as all as I can, and I pass all the info and I just keep at it.
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:47.440
And I realize there are people out there that are probably that hate me or they make fun of me on different platforms.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:57.039
Maybe they do, I don't know, but some of the people I follow they get made fun of, and so and I realize that LinkedIn itself, it's it's they put a clamp on controversial subjects.
00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:02.879
I know we're not for that I'd have even more followers because viewership is down, and so but it's just I just I don't know.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:06.320
I just feel like it's birds fly, fish swim.
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.039
I gotta lecture, so it's just who I am.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.919
Yeah, yeah, indeed, and you're excellent at it.
00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:37.840
So when you get people because it's clear that you let's say it this way there's many people who are also prolific on platforms who don't manage their comments personally, who won't engage personally, and maybe have other people working on it so that they don't have to deal with the kind of emotional hurricane that people can break.
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:38.639
Yeah.
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.879
How do you handle it?
00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:42.240
Yeah.
00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.080
So it's just I know I I just pay attention to my limits.
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:56.240
Sometimes I have the energy to respond or I'll have a conversation, and I realize and I go into it realizing that look, this person that's upset with me or disagrees with me, I'm chances I'm not gonna change them.
00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:05.120
I respond one for the people that are sitting on the fence or that do agree with me, so they can see an example of what the what's the right thing to say.
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:11.600
So I do it for my audience, and two, I do it to boost engagement because the more you argue with the post, the better engagement it does.
00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:19.200
And so I even tell I've even told I've told people this I'm like, look, you can argue all you want to, the more you argue, the more that you only boost engagement.
00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:19.919
They don't learn from it.
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:20.559
They keep arguing.
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.399
I'm like, all right, what's your problem?
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:30.799
But it's so I do it one for my audience, people that maybe sitting on the page and they're maybe wondering how do I respond to this, and two, I do it to boost engagement.
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:38.240
And it's and so and but there are times where I just I've had enough and I just block the person, or I just delete their their comments.
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:45.600
I don't like some people block instantly for no matter what, and I don't do that because but like I I do I'm not ashamed of blocking people in general.
00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:46.399
What do you mean?
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.679
Oh no, but yeah, so that that's how I manage.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.519
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:58.720
The and people who are just dragging it down ought to be blocked anyway.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:07.679
Like you give people a chance, you do engage, and but you don't take it personally, and I think that's a really important aspect of all of this.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:08.960
None of it is personal.
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:09.600
Exactly.
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:24.720
In fact, none of this, this whole racism and classism and homophobia, and all the ways that white supremacy oppresses us can affect us personally, but none of it is personal in a way, you know what I mean?
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:32.799
Yeah, so it affects us, but it's not because we are who we are, it's because of the systems of oppression we live in.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:33.759
Exactly.
00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.120
And I think for some people that just so used to it that challenge it feels odd.
00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:51.519
If we call out sexual or domestic violence, there are people who are so used to either covering for it or they see in their families or it's either bad behavior that that like we've calling it out, you've disturbed their comfort.
00:15:51.679 --> 00:16:02.480
And so, and so it's just like if you go up in a family and you see a relative that has abused somebody, or you have a friend group and one of the friends is harming or abusing somebody, and then you call it out, it's okay.
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:08.159
Now they're saying the quiet part loud, I don't like this because now they're bringing the issue to light, and I don't like the peak elephant being addressed.
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:09.440
And it's the same dynamic.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:10.639
And I talk about that in my book.
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:16.559
Like it, me having worked in sexual assault and intimate partner violence prevention, it's a lot of it's a similar dynamic.
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.720
It's a power and control dynamic, there's a comfort level dynamic when people speak out.
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:26.559
People who've been quietly supporting it or just stuffing it on the carpet, they don't want their negative peace rocked.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.360
And so, and that's why we're paying as the bad guy.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:49.840
And I think there's also kind of disbel a sh a mixture of disbelief, shame, yeah, and fear when people who are caught up in these systems and upholding them see other people confidently speaking out about it.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.879
It doesn't, it not doesn't necessarily motivate other people to join the ranks.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.879
I think there's some in-between stages that people go through of, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen to that person for speaking out?
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:02.559
I never spoke out.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:09.119
I don't think I'm capable of speaking out, or they think maybe I should have and I didn't, and then there's this added shame factor.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:24.640
And I feel like there's all of these multiple barriers to entry that are kind of self-induced, but of course, our systems around us have put them on us as obstacles to joining the resistance and and really fighting against all of these systems of oppression.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:38.480
There's a weird shame or guilt about not speaking up because actually, I know we we haven't really talked about this, but you have kids, I have young kids as well.
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:40.559
What is it like in my household?
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:45.519
We're constantly talking about white supremacy, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, all of those things.
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:52.640
My kids are under the age of 10, both of them, and they're both girls, and we are constantly talking about that.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:18:05.440
Even my my kid the other day, my older one said everything is about a man, like fire man, police man, even the word person, it's per son.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:06.559
Yeah.
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.240
How come it's like that?
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:24.079
And I mean, there might be this gender, there's such gendered language, and even our oldest is eight, and he'll repeat something that he saw he either heard a friend say or on social media, but he's like, Oh dad, mom's your woman, and we're like, Stop.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.839
We don't there's no ownership here.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:33.200
But it's like kids at an early age just pick up gender norms and x-ray and stereotypes, and indeed.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:39.200
It's just it's it's so amazing how early it happened, and even unintentionally, like it's it's just I don't know.
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:50.880
I it that you have to like stop and tell the kid, hey, we don't say you're a woman because you don't own her, and you don't say woman when you're trying to catch a girl or woman's attention.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.759
We don't say that, so it's just yeah, it's an uphill battle.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.039
And sometimes you catch it in yourself, and then you catch other things.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.960
Like we had to explain him what racism is.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.720
And I know that him being biracial.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.319
At one school, they talked about slavery.
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:16.480
He came home crying because he's lighter skinned, and we had and we like realize there's two identities working, but he's light skinned, and so and so actually the oldest is lighter than my youngest, as you saw, and so sometimes he passes for white one and so.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.839
But it's just that we see that early, we see white fragility earlier on.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:25.119
My biracial son comes home crying after learning about slavery, and then thinking that white people were bad when so.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.799
So yeah, it's something else.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.680
Yeah.
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:50.240
What I think is remarkable is at eight years old, kids can when you tell them the the rationale or and the history behind something, they can carry that with them and and into their e even though they're only eight, they can carry it into their analysis.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:51.759
Even as an eight-year-old.
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:57.359
And I'm talking to people in our audience who might have kids who are like, I have no idea how to get started on this.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.359
The thing is, you gotta just talk about it.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.279
Yeah, I and I talk about that in my book too.
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:06.720
When I talk about there's I think it's a chapter called DEI at home or someone or family affairs.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.519
So I talk about it's okay to start small.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.160
One, you don't have to have all the answers, and two, start small and just work from there.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.839
And if you don't know something, be you can be honest and say you don't know.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.200
Because I say that as a parent, you're the expert, not me.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.160
Like to somebody's kids, they don't know me, they don't care, but their parents are the expert, even if they aren't.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:31.519
And so just educate yourself, don't be ashamed of saying no, start small and just let it grow.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:47.599
So I think it will go well because I like thinking a lot of white families, a lot of white people, they grow up, they don't have racial literacy and they don't know how to have conversations and they get upset when people like me talk about racism because I triggered something because their parents never they never developed a racial stamina.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:59.680
I'm thinking about any topic, any taboo talk or whatever, like addiction, sex, you know, race, sexual assault, domestic partner, intimate partner violence, all those things are like hard topics.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.160
Yeah.
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:11.119
And so if you're not, if you don't, if you didn't grow up learning how to talk about those things, even as an adult, a well-educated, well-respected adult, you just it just hits a button that you just give them in fight, flight, or freeze mode.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.079
And so yeah, totally.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:19.200
No one's expecting you to teach math to a first grader and start at calculus.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:19.519
Yeah.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.039
Just starting whatever you know about it.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.759
However, you know about it, it's the right way to go about it.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:35.279
And I think when you and I say just start, I think it can still scramble people's brains of what where and how.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.200
And no, we literally mean just say a sentence.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:39.759
Yeah.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.440
One example I saw, it was it was shortly after George Floyd's murder.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:50.319
And I think this somebody asked this white, I could tell he was a a white rural conserv or white conservative, maybe rural, I don't know.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.960
But they asked him a question about what would you teach your kid about color or race or whatever.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.599
And the black woman was like kind of like watching his response as she she started off nervous.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:05.920
And then he with the answer to his beautiful is like, yeah, we just teach a kid that people come in all colors and all of them are beautiful.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.279
And then that was beautiful itself.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.720
It was a simple response.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:21.519
He wasn't an anti-race, I don't know, a DI anti-race expert, but it's just a simple response like, hey, we teach our daughter that God created kids in all colors, and all of it's beautiful, all of it's wonderful.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.240
And that was just that was itself was amazing.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:29.680
And that's not what you, you know, it wasn't a Pulitzer Prize or Nobel Prize winning answer, but you know what?
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.160
For a kid, that's what a white kid needs to hear.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.799
Yeah.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:38.559
And same, which body shapes, yes, abilities, disability, whatever.
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.119
We all are born for yes.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.279
Religions, orientations, sizes, colors, nationalities, languages, it's all good.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.079
It's natural.
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.119
It's like nobody, most of that people don't have control over.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.680
And so I in fact, I even heard what come to faith.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.119
There's such a thing as faith orientation.
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:55.839
I'm like, huh.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.519
I never thought about that, but it makes sense.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.920
It's just some people just have that bent, but they don't.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.200
Yes.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.240
Fascinating.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.119
I was reading this, the intro to this book.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:16.480
I the title is Algorithms of Oppression, How Search Engines Reinforce Racism, and it's by Safia Umoja Noble.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:23.039
And in her introduction, she thanks, I can't get to it right now, but she thanks her mom who passed.
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:31.599
And she writes in the intro When You're Thanking Everybody, she thanks her mom, who has passed away, who was not white.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:24:05.599
And she thanks her mom for raising her who a black girl, now a black woman, and teaching her how to love her blackness, and that she is smart and adding the word black to her identity intentionally to say you are a smart black woman and how impressive as a child, impressive of an idea that was that she grew up with this confidence and self-esteem that was just modeled, bolstered by her her mom who wasn't black.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:21.839
And when we talk about okay, white families talking about racism or in your book encouraging people to let we need to just talk about this, not in this like extreme hate way, but in this regular everyday way, look what happens when you do as a non-black person.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:31.680
You create people with high self-esteem, high confidence, who know their worth, who then go on to leaving lead incredible lives, write incredible books.
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:38.720
And the thing about our society is that whiteness is already validated and celebrated.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:45.039
And so in your home as a non-white person, we have to celebrate, intentionally push that.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.079
Like you are a mate, an amazing crown woman.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:49.759
You are an amazing black woman.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:59.200
And say that over and over again so that it that is internalized, so that we don't have to learn that as adults, but rather we grow up with it just like other people who are affirmed.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:02.400
Yeah, I think you hit the nail head when you said the society already values whiteness.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.960
And it's funny you mentioned that because a lot of white people, there come a number of white people come up with my posts who are like, what's bad to be white?
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:25.039
And it's like, no, yeah, you hear there are people that are upset, and yes, there are people that legitimately hate white people, but you need to understand that whiteness is still valued because look at all the disparities, health disparities, income disparities, housing disparities, educational disparities, not to mention in entertainment and fashion and beauty.
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:26.640
Who are the most of the models?
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.079
What's the standard of beauty?
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:52.720
I remember a guy, uh a friend of mine in college, he was from, I don't know what part of India he was from, but he was telling me about how he was taught to stay away from the blacks, because I'm guessing the image from TV or white Christian Christian missionaries claims the idea that black people were bad, and so and then the stories about people, and then of course the caste system in South Asia, like darker versus lighter, and so it's like whiteness is still highly valued.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.119
Yeah, you may be criticized, but at the end of the day, whiteness is still the gold standard.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.160
Yep, yep.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:15.279
We several years ago we heard about the push to add caste to the anti-discrimination statutes on the West Coast, like in Silicon Valley, because nobody knows division as a s as an Indian person than Indians.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:16.000
Yeah.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:21.759
We are so good at classification, casteism, classism, race.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.519
We are so good at it because it's um so embedded in our culture.
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.559
And then that's exactly what happens here.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:46.640
You tr you bring all all these I you know hate this term, but uh upper caste, you know, Brahmin Hindus, and they're the majority of the people working as in Silicon Valley and who have been brought over, and then who do they just bring over, also?
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.279
Similarly situated upper caste Brahmin Hindus.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:49.759
Yeah.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:03.920
So you're not getting any one, you're not getting any diversity, but you're reinforcing the casteism not only back there, but now you're bringing casteism here, which we already have, but now in this other very nuanced as very specific to one country.
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:05.279
Yeah, it's really weird.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:11.599
It's just man, after the castle in India start from is that influenced by British colonialism, was that something that existed before?
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:13.599
It was way this is thousands.
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:18.000
Okay, and and of course reinforced and perverted even more by the Bracken.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:18.400
I see.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:19.279
And that makes sense.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:20.720
But it's yeah, it's just I don't know.
00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:32.559
I remember when I dated uh a Puerto Rican woman, she told woman, she told me how in Latin America colorism, there's a cast that's not maybe not similar to Indians, but it's in Latin America, it's darker skinned people or have a hard time getting jobs or seems less beautiful.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:47.119
And I did a Puerto Rican woman, she said her dad, because her dad had more black features, yeah, it was hard for him to get work because she was like middle, she was like her mom was light-skinned, and so you see her, she was like not quite light-skinned, but her dad was like dark like me.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:53.680
And so when her dad had difficult finding word because people were like, oh, he's dark, darker, didn't want to hire him.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:03.599
But it's like the effect of slavery and colonization in Latin America, you have the the color stratification, I guess, caste, not quite like India, but still it's racial hierarchy.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:05.119
Yep, yep, indeed.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:06.240
Indeed.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.839
Indeed.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.079
Alive and all through European colonization.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.839
It's really remarkable.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:22.960
Okay, so I want to talk about earlier uh offline, we were talking about a kind of emotional intelligence and kind of developing that.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.599
Can we talk about that and how it comes up in your book?
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah, so a number of years ago, I don't I was having a conversation with uh a colleague of mine, and we caught up on LinkedIn.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:36.559
I don't remember what caused the conversation, but we were just chatting and he brought up something about something that stuck with me.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.839
He's like emotional intelligence is key to anti-racism.
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:41.680
But he said this back in 2020.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.839
I'm like, wow, and then but um as the years moved on, he was he's right.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:52.960
And so I think a lot so think of the DEI backlash, that's all the emotions that were stirred up that led to the DI backlash.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:29:00.880
If people were more emotionally intelligent, then I don't know would have been as bad because emotional intelligence, essentially you're asking yourself, what am I feeling?
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:01.839
Why am I feeling it?
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.200
And how can I navigate out of this?
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:15.039
And the whole and George Floyd was murdered and the attempt to re to bring equity in schools and anti-racism, that caused a knee-jerk reaction in a lot of white people, even some people of color again, like, oh, you must hate white people now.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:24.160
And CRT in schools, when CRT is clearly a government graduate level course, and it's like they don't teach kids about racism and the legal system.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:32.720
Yeah, you forget about it, but that's what's that's why we're here now because that that that started that that it started with CRT, then it moved to DEI.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.720
That was orchestrated, but a lot of people did not have the emotional intelligence to unpack the fallout from George Floyd.
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:52.160
And so there was a brief awakening, and then the far right seized that and just took and just took it the opposite, and they pushed that pin on so far the other direction, and they did it by catering to people's fears and prejudices.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:59.839
And so And I write about that, I write about I write about that in my book as well, and so it's just like I I don't what you see in my post is what you see in the book.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:01.039
I don't spare anything.
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:14.559
I backed up even more on that's because I don't have to worry about anything taken down or censored and so and so yeah, what you see in the post is what is going what you see in the is what you're gonna see in the book, and even more so in the book, and so yeah.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:25.920
I love that because the the extremely recent history of the of 2020, and I really cringe when people are like, I really woke up in 2020.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.519
It's like what the hell was going on before?
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:34.720
What it's everyday violence, like why now?
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:36.160
Why not 2013?
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:37.279
Why not with Eric Gurner?
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:38.559
Why not with Rodney King?
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.680
Why are why Sandra Blenn, why are we Billy Riots?
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:43.440
Yeah, what just happened to you?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:50.240
Yeah, like people were making calls, my wife was getting calls like I'm so sorry for that this racist violence has happened.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.000
I was like, why are people texting me?
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:53.599
This is so weird.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:57.519
What I got a I got such a strange response, right?
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:07.920
Yeah, I got after George Floyd was murdered, and after the, I guess I'm gonna say riots in Minneapolis, and I lived there at the time, I got a text from a a gaming buddy of mine.
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:09.680
He's like, Yeah, I want to make sure you're okay.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:11.599
I'm like, Yeah, I'm doing all right.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.480
It wasn't the whole city wasn't burned down.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:17.440
It was live a number of miles away from all that.
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.680
And the vast majority of the city was fine.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:27.119
It's like there was a good, there was a chunk that was affected, but like the city wasn't the media thought, oh, the Twitter cities, Minnesota got burned to the ground.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.039
The city wasn't burned to the ground.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.359
I lived in Minneapolis, most of the city was fine.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:32.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:46.160
I was like, if you want to text us or this household about all of this stuff, maybe apologize for like the constant helicopters and the noise that you can't even sleep because we're being surveilled during that period.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:48.319
Yeah.
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.079
At least commiserate in that way, but it's very interesting that.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:02.799
And so I really appreciate that your book kind of gets into that very recent history where people still haven't honestly comprehended what the heck happened, why was that response?
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:14.960
Around that time I got 50 calls around 50 from companies and organizations that were like hurry, give us a proposal.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:17.759
We need to have some anti-racist thing happen.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.279
And I was like, Okay, I understand you want it done now.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.559
So what have you done up until this thing?
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:29.359
But we're and I was like, it let me I'll recommend you some other people.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:30.880
We're not gonna work well together.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.920
Yeah, it kind of amuses me and it annoys me.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:35.039
It's a weird combo.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:39.119
It's like you wait until crisis mode, and now you're like doing this.
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:47.200
And I remember that because I remember all these that was the year the pandemic started, and I saw a bunch of DI positions get eliminated because of the recession.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:51.680
And then once George Floyd was murdered, all his organizations started having DEI positions again.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.079
So I'm like, so okay, so it wasn't about money, was it?
00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:01.680
You wanted to explain so it's just now all this DI position and DI that and then all this stuff, and it's like, you know what?
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.559
You guys should be charged double for waiting until crisis mode for doing it as a lesson.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:26.000
Or need, I mean you probably won't learn that lesson, but for the any race people that are working their butts off that have been saying this for years and that have had to explain this again, they should really charge you double or triple because you're now doing this, you're in crisis mode, and I doing this work, I get why a lot of wives get upset with her husbands, it's kind of like she's already told you five times, and you're like, what?
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:26.400
What's going on?
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:27.519
And I'm like, oh wait, yes.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.519
Like, she's already told you four or five times before, and you're now getting it.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:32.400
You're not getting it.
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:39.039
So it's like it is I feel and part of me if this is wrong, but just I just feel like it makes me understand the frustration a bit more.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:50.559
Because yeah, I mean how long have straight women been trying to explain or women generally trying to explain things to men, whether it's in the interim partner relationship or just in general, when it's huh, what I don't know, understand.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:54.079
Oh, got it, but it's like Yeah, I don't know, man.
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:55.519
Where was your head?
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.039
So the emotional intelligence, very important part.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:06.160
And also Derek Bell wrote about this of interest convergence.
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:28.400
Once you get the the interest of white people aligned with the anti-racism goals of people of color and but especially black communities, especially, when those interests converge, then there is some forward progress, but it's never the progress that actually is true for what anti-racist people want.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:41.920
That that interest convergence really is so heavily weighted on the white fragility that yeah, it seems like we're moving forward, but it's only because of our interests have aligned in this one moment that we can move forward.
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:49.599
It's in theory and really leads to unfortunate mediocrity instead of the progressive push that we need.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.119
Okay, we've talked for for a while.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:35:06.320
I want to ask you is there something that you want our audience to know if there is a one way that they could enter equity, equity work, or see the work that we do, and especially the kind of the way you see it.
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:13.039
What is one way people can just one step that they could move in any part of their life?
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.000
Their emotional intelligence, their understanding of anti-racism.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.840
Like every everybody has a phone, just whatever has a smartphone.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.719
Just get on social media and follow people.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:39.920
So whether it's Facebook, LinkedIn, Thread, maybe not X, but just Instagram, Substack, there's people out there that are fighting for equality and equity, whether it's racial, gender, sexuality, religion, whatever, persons with disabilities, the people out there that are fighting it.
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.480
So you just gotta get on social media and follow them.
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:51.280
And once you follow these people, you may or may not agree or though, you may or may not agree everything what they say, but it's start with the subject matter experts and just and follow them, listen to them.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:01.360
What is good about social media is that when I've joined new platforms, if I type in one person, they'll say, Oh, people would follow this person, also follow this person as well.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.519
And so they'll try to the algorithm will try to match you if you go looking for it.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:07.679
Absolutely.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:08.719
Excellent.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.760
Just start with passive education, and there's no risk.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:21.039
I guess the risk is that you fall into the wrong hands, but follow the people that are really responsible in this work, like you.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.519
So connect with Paul LaDipo on LinkedIn.
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.840
Are you anywhere else where people can should find you?
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.039
Yeah, I'm on.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.320
I just started on Substack, so uh when I'm on Substack and Threads, those two.
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.440
Excellent.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:34.239
Great.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:39.519
Paul's book is called It Was Never About That.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:44.400
Going Beyond Hate to Dismantle Everyday Racism in America.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.239
It comes out next month.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:47.920
Paul, you're amazing.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:49.199
I'm so glad we got to talk.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:50.320
So glad we're connected.
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:51.760
Selfish for me.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:52.800
I am so happy.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:53.599
We know each other.
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:54.880
I really appreciate you.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.920
You're amazing.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.280
You do really great work.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.760
And I'm excited to continue our conversation.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:00.639
Yeah.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:03.760
Okay, everybody, that's it for today.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.239
We'll see you next time on Everyday Equity.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.840
Thanks for joining us on Everyday Equity, Everyday Ways to Make a Change.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.119
If today's conversation inspired you, keep the momentum going.
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:26.239
Connect with us on LinkedIn at Boundless Awareness, subscribe to our YouTube at Boundless Awareness, and explore more free resources to support your anti-oppression journey at BoundlessAwareness.com.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.920
Remember, progress isn't about perfection.
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:36.880
It's about showing up every day with curiosity, compassion, and the courage to do a little better.
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:44.159
I'm Puja Kotari, and I can't wait to keep learning and growing with you right here on Everyday Equity.
