Gilded Age Women Composers: Duo FAE Charlene Kluegel Katherine Petersen

WEBVTT
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I think she was definitely, for me, one of the
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more interesting people to read about, especially
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about her career and what a phenomenal pianist
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she was. And, you know, I've played a variety
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of her music, some of the solo works, you know,
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obviously the violin and piano works. Just sort
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of exploring her music, it's really clear what
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a virtuoso she was because so much of the technique
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and the piano part is, you know, complex. And
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not to say that Ethel Smythe and Chaminade are
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not, but they're, you know, different. It seems
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that that was the outlet through which Amy Beach
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expressed herself. And what was interesting to
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me was reading about, you know, whereas Chaminade
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may have had a marriage of convenience that allowed
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her to have the freedom to do what she wanted,
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it wasn't so for Miss Amy Beach. Hi, you're listening
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to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman,
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which I hope inspires you through the personal
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stories of a fascinating diversity of musical
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guests. This episode is with duo FAE, violinist
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Charlene Klugel and pianist Catherine Peterson.
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The first part of this conversation focuses on
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their album Dissidents of the Gilded Age. You'll
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be hearing excerpts from this beautiful program
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and learning about the composers Dame Ethel Smyth,
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Cécile Chaminade and Amy Beach. Charlene and
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Catherine are longtime collaborators and close
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friends and we got into conversations around
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education, what a path to a career in classical
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music can look like and how they've dealt with
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challenges including becoming mothers. With hundreds
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of kilometers separating us, I really felt like
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I was enjoying a thoughtful coffee date with
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brilliant new friends, and I hope you feel that
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as well. You can watch this video on my YouTube,
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or listen to the podcast on your preferred platform,
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and I've also linked the transcript. It's a joy
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to bring these inspiring episodes to you, and
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I do all the many jobs of research, production,
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and publicity. Have a look at the show notes
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of this episode on my website, where you'll find
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all the links, including different ways to support
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this podcast and other episodes you'll enjoy.
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Okay, Charlene and Catherine, thanks so much
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for joining me here today. Of course, it's great
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to be here. Thank you. I've really enjoyed listening
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to your album, Dissidents of the Gilded Age.
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So I thought we'd start today's conversation
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with a deep dive into that and the composers
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and then we'll get more into your lives as musicians
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and of course people can use the time stamps
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if they want to jump to anything. So this album,
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had you done quite a bit of research on these
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composers before you started this project or
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did you find out more as you went along? Well,
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the answer is yes and yes, which is that we started
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out with Amy Beach. We really liked her romance.
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That is where this entire thing started. And
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then we started looking more into Amy Beach because
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we both really like researching and doing deep
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dives and we just go down rabbit holes. And then
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we discovered this entire culture around salon
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music and around women in music at the turn of
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the 20th century. And then we discovered... how
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women musicians and women composers were active
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in the women's suffrage movement, specifically
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Dame Ethel Smythe. And so then we kept on branching
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out and branching out and branching out. And
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then we said at some point, hey, there's a program
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here. There's a program here. And so... So the
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actual linchpin for the idea, for the program,
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was actually the Chaminade, right? Yeah. Yeah,
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because we found the Chaminade Trois Morceaux,
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and the more we read about Chaminade and how
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she gained her popularity through salons, and
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that was really what she was known for. There
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are Cecil Chaminade salons still alive today.
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That was something that she was famous for around
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the world. And that sort of brought the whole
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idea together of women coming together in the
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salon space to be able to freely share their
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music, but also their ideas and their political
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leanings. And these were spaces where they could
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be free. All of these three composers, I found
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it interesting that they died in 1944. Did you
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notice that? But yeah, it was sort of a funny
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thing that, you know, we noticed that and we're
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like, huh, like, what, is there anything to that?
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But, you know, it's just sort of one of those
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funny things. And they were all pianists as well.
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Yes. Yes. So the Gilded Age, actually, I watched
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that HBO series. I don't know if you guys saw
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it. It was certainly the inspiration for some
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of our CD art. For people that haven't seen it,
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I mean, there's the costume design in that show
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is unbelievable. Like every scene they're wearing
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something different and very elaborate. It's
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a very interesting show if people want to check
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it out. But so the Gilded Age, I was interested
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to read that Mark Twain had actually coined this
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term and that it was like a critical term of
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the age because there was. like now, such a huge
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divide between the very rich and the very poor
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and also a time of great technological change
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and uprising. And I thought it was it was a kind
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of interesting parallel with what we're living
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through now. For sure, for sure. And I think,
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you know, those parallels were interesting for
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us as well, which was, you know, when we started
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cooking up this program, I don't know that we
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knew how relevant it would be. Nowadays. And
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nowadays. And especially because we were cooking
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it up well before all of the current political
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situation and everything that has been going
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on with women's rights lately. And it was just
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kind of like we had this premonition of sorts,
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I guess. Well, this program really started in
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2020, 2021. That's when we were starting to think
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about really interesting curatorial topics. And
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so it was a completely different time than it
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is now, five, six years later. It's unbelievable.
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But you're right that music in that sense can
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bridge a gap in connecting current events with
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the past. And I read recently that the inequalities
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that exist now are at levels that were also present
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in the Gilded Age, right up until about 1913.
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So Dame Ethel Smythe, British musician, she lived
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at the exact same time as Cecile. And I was really
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interested to read about her involvement in the
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suffragette movement, that she gave up music
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for two years in order to throw herself into
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this. And that she was in prison for breaking
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windows. Like she was really, active. It's one
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of the things we love most about her and why
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we felt so compelled to put her music on this
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program. Each of these women were suffragettes
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in different ways. Ethel Smythe was definitely
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the protester. She was the one that was out on
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the streets. hitting the pavement and really
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like screaming at society to listen to women's
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rights. And, you know, I think one of our favorite
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things about her is that she actually wrote the
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anthem for the suffragette movement called March
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of the Women, which is a piece that we arranged
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and, and then actually recorded the teaser video
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for our CD of us playing that. And we just think
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her work. um with the movement was so powerful
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and just the way that she engaged through her
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music with the movement actually if you can share
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that teaser video i could edit in a clip of that
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anthem into this episode for people to hear for
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sure yeah we can do that You know, the whole
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album's great, but I thought it might be beautiful
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to start with the third movement, the Romance.
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And I was, you know, very interested in Ethel
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when I was reading about her, that she also conducted.
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I mean, that's rare now that she was doing that
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then. And then she became deaf, but she wrote
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10 highly successful, mostly autobiographical
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books. So what a woman. Indeed, yes. She used
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her time very, very, very industriously. Are
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there other of her works that you've worked on
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or you're thinking of recording in the future?
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Well, some bucket list items are her piano trio,
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for sure. For me as a violinist, she has a concerto
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for violin and horn, which is an uncommon, to
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say the least, instrumentation. Yeah, I've played
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the cello sonata myself. I mean, all of her works
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are just so passionate and interesting to us.
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I would say the trio is definitely like the next
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on the list. Okay. And is this music available
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on IMSLIP or has it been published? Some has
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been published. I mean, I would say actually
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since we started the project, it's been easier
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to find her music. You know, I remember visiting
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her IMSLIP page. at the beginning and there wasn't
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very much on there and there's more now on that
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page. I think you know one of the things that
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that we always lament about playing female music
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is that there's not enough good published but
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edited music out there. You know a lot of times
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you're dealing with like first edition reprints
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which is the case with the Sonata for Violin
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and Piano. And so when you get those first edition
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reprints, there's a lot that needs interpreting
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and editing and sort of reading between the lines
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to make sure you're really understanding. And
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wrong notes. And wrong notes. And figuring out
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where they are and what they mean. Right. And
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I mean, that's one of the things that we would
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like to see more of is just more, you know, we'd
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love to see Henley carry some. Dame Ethel Smythe
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with the same scholarly intent and enthusiasm
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that they carry Beethoven. Yeah. Well, let's
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move on to Cécile Chaminade. So her father wouldn't
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let her go to the Conservatoire. He thought it
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was unseemly. And I was also fascinated to learn
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that she lived separately from her husband in
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a platonic marriage. And that she recorded, it
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said 1901, like incredibly early recordings.
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Yeah. Well, being a married woman at the time
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allowed her certain freedoms and a certain type
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of status that an unmarried woman, very unkindly,
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usually called a spinster, would have not had.
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So the platonic marriage was not as uncommon
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as we think. It might have also been advantageous
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for her husband for various reasons, and I will
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not speculate on that up front. But for her,
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definitely, it was safety to a certain extent.
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So these trois morceaux, very beautiful. Well,
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I'd like to share a little bit of the opening
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track. But also this fiery number three, the
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Bohemian. It's the most violinistically virtuosic
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piece on the album. It is kind of a showpiece.
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And it's very, these, you know, trois morceaux
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are the closest to true salon music out of the
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three pieces on the album. And she really leans
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into this tradition that we usually only see
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with Kreisler and Sarasate of light music. in,
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you know, compendiums of, you know, two or three
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pieces. And so there is always a Bohemian piece
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of sorts or a Zygon or a Zygoner Weizen or something
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like that. There is always one of those there.
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So that is how I read the Bohemian as a nod to
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that tradition of violin literature in the Salon.
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I'd love to hear more about these salons of Chaminades.
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So Chaminade sat in an interesting place in music
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criticism, and she was certainly not the only
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one, but she was very often considered either
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too feminine as a composer to be a serious composer,
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quote unquote, or when she wrote quote -unquote
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strong music, then she was suddenly too masculine.
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So she never really fits squarely into a concert
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hall setting. Now the salon... The salon was
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really where she made her career and she toured
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up and down Europe and definitely up and down
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North America. As Catherine alluded to earlier,
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there are still Chaminade clubs in existence
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to this day that are dedicated to performing
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her works, most of which are piano works and
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then also vocal works. And so she really made
00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:11.480
her name. going from salon to salon and just
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presenting intimate house concerts, essentially.
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Have you played at any of these specific house
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concerts? We've played a lot of house concerts
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with this program. In fact, it was one of our
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goals to present the program in the type of situations
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it would have been heard in. So we've performed
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at a lot of the Gilded Age mansions that you
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still see around the Chicago area today, like
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the Dawes House, the Driehaus Museum. The Glessner
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House. The Glessner House. Yes. And that's been
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sort of... It brings new light to the music,
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the intimacy when you're so close to it. It's
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really different when you're sitting on a stage
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and there's that distance between you and the
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audience, but just the interaction with the music
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in front of people. But I can't say we haven't
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played on any of the Chaminade Club series that
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are still alive. You should. Well, we'll get
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on it. so in terms of cecile making a living
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so they would how would this work how'd she get
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paid that is an excellent question i'm not sure
00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.930
that i have an answer for you but um i mean performance
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fees or or donations at the the door and then
00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:31.569
certainly accommodations yeah i was just curious
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if it was kind of like house concerts today you
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know because it was a different type of people
00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:39.140
right Right. Well, and these were always wealthy
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society women predominantly, so there would have
00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:46.759
been compensation in some shape or form. Mozart
00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:50.819
very often got compensated in valuable trinkets
00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:56.160
that they then would sell. So I'm not sure that
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.119
there was always a cash transaction, but she
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:23.599
clearly made a living out of it. So maybe we
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.839
could move over to Amy Beach. Probably, well,
00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:30.200
I was going to say it's best known of the three,
00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:32.880
but maybe not. Maybe pianists really know. No,
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.000
I think she is. I mean, for sure. I think her
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.279
music is more widely available and more edited.
00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:42.819
You know, the edition that we worked off came
00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:45.299
from, it was Hildegard, wasn't it? I think so.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.420
Yeah, it was from Hildegard Publishing and it
00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:52.920
was highly edited. You know, we can't say that
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.359
about any of the other works that appeared on
00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.759
the CD. So her name has certainly come up on
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.920
this series a couple of times. And I did interview
00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.660
the Samantha Ege, the Florence Price scholar.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.960
Yeah. And she did. We did talk about how Amy
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:12.240
was racist and there were quotes with her, you
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:16.180
know, keeping out black composers. So unfortunately,
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:20.289
there was that divide. And I discussed this with
00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:23.430
Juliana Soltis, the cellist, because her album,
00:20:23.470 --> 00:20:26.210
which had a variety of composers, including Amy
00:20:26.210 --> 00:20:28.490
Beach. So we talked about that as well. So I'll
00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:30.470
link those episodes in the show notes for people
00:20:30.470 --> 00:20:32.569
because it was all about women composers of that
00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:36.349
time. So but Amy Beach, like incredible talent,
00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:39.309
even at age four, she wrote music like there's
00:20:39.309 --> 00:20:41.769
some real interesting stories about that. Do
00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:44.910
you want to share more about her life? I think
00:20:44.910 --> 00:20:47.029
she was definitely, for me, one of the more interesting
00:20:47.029 --> 00:20:49.670
people to read about, especially about her career
00:20:49.670 --> 00:20:53.069
and what a phenomenal pianist she was. And, you
00:20:53.069 --> 00:20:56.210
know, I've played a variety of her music, some
00:20:56.210 --> 00:20:58.630
of the solo works, you know, obviously the violin
00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:02.109
and piano works. Just sort of exploring her music,
00:21:02.170 --> 00:21:05.390
it's really clear what a virtuoso she was because
00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:09.309
so much of the technique and the piano part is,
00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:14.740
you know, complex. And not to say that Ethel
00:21:14.740 --> 00:21:18.220
Smythe and Chaminade are not, but they're different.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.440
It seems that that was the outlet through which
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:26.660
Amy Beach expressed herself. And what was interesting
00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:30.720
to me was reading about, whereas Chaminade may
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:32.940
have had a marriage of convenience that allowed
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:35.000
her to have the freedom to do what she wanted.
00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:41.019
It wasn't so for Miss Amy Beach. She married
00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:45.019
a physician who was much older than she was.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.460
And basically upon their marriage, he forbade
00:21:48.460 --> 00:21:53.779
her from performing. And in a way that led her
00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:57.299
to move closer towards composition. And so we
00:21:57.299 --> 00:22:00.420
can be thankful for that aspect of things. But
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:04.500
I can imagine... how difficult that was for her
00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:07.680
to give up a part of herself that really was
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:13.160
such a deep way for her to express. And the thing
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:19.099
we always take a little bit of joy with is that
00:22:19.099 --> 00:22:23.619
once he did pass, she returned to it, and very
00:22:23.619 --> 00:22:27.799
quickly. Well, after a suitable time. Yes, a
00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:32.049
suitable morning period. You know, and then she
00:22:32.049 --> 00:22:34.150
was back to being who she was and performing
00:22:34.150 --> 00:22:38.150
and touring across the world. And, you know,
00:22:38.170 --> 00:22:40.410
obviously she never lost that part of herself.
00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:45.109
Right. She was clearly still practicing. Yes,
00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:47.089
she was clearly still practicing. She just couldn't
00:22:47.089 --> 00:22:52.670
do it in public. So I, again, such a great album
00:22:52.670 --> 00:22:54.450
and I can put in more clips if you'd like, but
00:22:54.450 --> 00:22:56.910
I chose the finale to highlight of the sonata
00:22:56.910 --> 00:23:01.069
in A minor. Yeah. That would be the one. It's
00:23:01.069 --> 00:23:09.049
a virtuosic feat for both performers. It doesn't
00:23:09.049 --> 00:23:11.809
get much harder or more complex than that. Well,
00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:15.430
especially culminating in a fugue, which to us
00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:21.130
is a really interesting... this tool of composition
00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:24.029
to end a work in a fugue, you know, that's something
00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:28.470
that Beethoven did a lot. And Brahms and Mozart.
00:23:29.390 --> 00:23:32.109
And it's sort of, you know, you have to think
00:23:32.109 --> 00:23:35.130
that that was intentional on her part to say,
00:23:35.190 --> 00:23:37.869
you know, well, I can do what the boys can do.
00:23:38.029 --> 00:23:40.789
Oh, it's such a, you know, statement piece. Yeah.
00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:45.200
Yeah. And it's... you know that uh i think the
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.259
interesting thing about that sonata is just its
00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:51.960
breadth you know both in um you know how how
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.660
loud it is how soft it is how how wide it is
00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:57.240
how long it is you know how fast it is the scherzo
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:02.200
is just like mind -blowingly quick and and complex
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:05.579
and and then she asked for this slow movement
00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:09.789
that is just so tender and It takes a lot of
00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:12.009
concentration to perform a movement like that.
00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:15.250
And then she sends you into this finale when
00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:18.450
you're already exhausted. And then she's like,
00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:58.849
oh, but wait, there's more. A fugue. When you
00:24:58.849 --> 00:25:01.430
perform this live, do you switch up the order
00:25:01.430 --> 00:25:07.769
of the works a little bit? No. Not really. Not
00:25:07.769 --> 00:25:10.190
really. I mean, what order are they on the CD
00:25:10.190 --> 00:25:12.470
right now? Because the Chaminade was sort of
00:25:12.470 --> 00:25:15.849
a... I think Chaminade's first, then it's the
00:25:15.849 --> 00:25:20.089
Smythe, and then it's the Beach. We usually start
00:25:20.089 --> 00:25:23.599
with the Smythe now. That's true. We sandwiched
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.480
with the Chaminade. We sandwiched the Chaminade
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:29.160
and then it's the beach. It's hard to play anything
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:33.000
or to present anything after the beach. It's
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.599
such a closing statement that really nothing
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.279
should go after that. And the Smythe is such
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:47.819
a good and strong and dark opener. So you guys
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:52.599
met at the Aspen Festival back in 2012? wasn't
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:58.799
it eight oh 2008 yeah yeah it's been a long time
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:03.019
yes we were roommates we were roommates and it
00:26:03.019 --> 00:26:06.920
was um I mean it was by chance like Aspen had
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:10.920
run out of housing that year and so they stuck
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:14.759
the people who were I know they stuck the people
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.809
who were left over in this apartment like in
00:26:18.809 --> 00:26:21.390
the mountains like we were by ourselves like
00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:25.029
we had no way to get into town and Charlene and
00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:27.630
I were first to arrive there were two other um
00:26:27.630 --> 00:26:30.549
women in our apartment but we didn't get to meet
00:26:30.549 --> 00:26:32.650
them until later but we arrived the first night
00:26:32.650 --> 00:26:36.170
and it was snowing and in June in June and there
00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.990
were no blankets and no heat and we had our towels
00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:43.029
and we just kind of you know and to survive that
00:26:43.029 --> 00:26:46.490
night it was it was quite funny and you know
00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:48.549
it was that whole summer was a bonding experience
00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:53.289
it really was living living in that way so yeah
00:26:53.289 --> 00:26:55.089
it's you know when i think back of the summer
00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:57.730
festivals i did when i was young they were you
00:26:57.730 --> 00:26:59.569
know i wish i had kept in touch with more people
00:26:59.569 --> 00:27:01.829
but it's that yeah you're you're young and you're
00:27:01.829 --> 00:27:04.049
being exposed to so much and meeting like -minded
00:27:04.049 --> 00:27:07.920
people can be so powerful For sure, for sure.
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.099
And we had a lot of really great experiences
00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:13.059
there. And, you know, aside from the whole freezing
00:27:13.059 --> 00:27:15.259
to death on the first night thing, it was, you
00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:17.440
know, overall a very positive experience. And
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:21.299
in some ways being, you know, isolated in that
00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:23.640
apartment together, it, you know, really helped
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.000
us to know more closely the people who were around
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:28.640
us. There was one more apartment in the complex
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.559
of people who were left over. Of boys. Of boys.
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.829
And so, you know, we had some fun. So this program
00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:40.509
that we've been talking about, Dissidents of
00:27:40.509 --> 00:27:42.990
the Gilded Age, you played it at Musicverein
00:27:42.990 --> 00:27:47.730
in Vienna? We did. Yeah, we did. Just in what,
00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:50.529
January? Oh, it's only been a couple of months.
00:27:50.549 --> 00:27:54.490
Look at that. Yeah, we did. So we went on a little
00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:58.990
mini tour in January. Nice and cold and snowy.
00:28:00.309 --> 00:28:04.960
Very slushy, actually. less snowy uh we we performed
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.680
in munich and then in vienna um what beautiful
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.799
spaces and what gorgeous instruments in particular
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.920
i i've rarely had the pleasure of getting to
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:22.140
play with such perfect piano specimens yeah i
00:28:22.140 --> 00:28:24.339
mean it's always a struggle i think you know
00:28:24.339 --> 00:28:26.980
performing this program in a lot of salon spaces
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.259
Oftentimes you're working with historic instruments,
00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:32.920
which have their own beauty and their own merits,
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.839
but they can be challenging because of their
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:39.339
age. And I think it was a really nice experience
00:28:39.339 --> 00:28:43.579
for us to be in the salon space at Music for
00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:46.480
Iron and be with, you know, the most perfect
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:51.099
piano, brand spanking new, you know, well -regulated
00:28:51.099 --> 00:28:53.559
and just sort of, you know, it was a beautiful
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.799
experience to sort of culminate. having performed
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:28.589
this program for a long time now. Yeah. And the
00:29:28.589 --> 00:29:34.349
name of your duo, so Frey Aber Einsam, for you,
00:29:34.369 --> 00:29:37.569
but alone. So it's interesting that it's associated
00:29:37.569 --> 00:29:40.470
with Brahms and Joachim. I've been reading a
00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:43.450
novel somebody sent me that's about to come out
00:29:43.450 --> 00:29:48.170
in June called Brahms Comes to Dinner. And it's
00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:51.029
about Brahms's relationship with Clara Schumann.
00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:57.769
It's like a novel. So the... author, Bowman Desai,
00:29:57.890 --> 00:30:00.009
he did a ton of research. And, you know, there's
00:30:00.009 --> 00:30:02.670
a lot there. I think even Robert Schumann's medical
00:30:02.670 --> 00:30:05.109
records were released and all these letters.
00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:09.269
And so it's, yeah, it's quite, it's interesting.
00:30:09.329 --> 00:30:12.809
And to think about, I mean, I haven't read a
00:30:12.809 --> 00:30:14.829
novel about composers before. I know it's a genre,
00:30:14.950 --> 00:30:17.470
but it's been interesting to kind of get in that
00:30:17.470 --> 00:30:21.289
world. And yeah, just how society was and lots
00:30:21.289 --> 00:30:25.529
of things about it. Yeah. So Catherine and I,
00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:31.880
bonded over Brahms that was kind of the first
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.359
love for the duo is you know like when you're
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.019
young and you're a student and you like you haven't
00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:40.279
discovered yet you're you know like where your
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:43.420
voice is I think like we were both kind of Brahms
00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:48.829
obsessed and um Well, still are. And still kind
00:30:48.829 --> 00:30:51.269
of are in a way. And, you know, one of the first
00:30:51.269 --> 00:30:53.329
pieces we played together was the Brahms D minor
00:30:53.329 --> 00:30:56.490
sonata. And that's just, you know, Brahms always
00:30:56.490 --> 00:31:01.150
holds this tender place for us. And for us, the
00:31:01.150 --> 00:31:05.349
idea of the Freie Beinsam, it's such an interesting
00:31:05.349 --> 00:31:12.769
motto, free but alone. And that's really how
00:31:12.769 --> 00:31:15.150
the duo took shape because, you know, we had
00:31:15.150 --> 00:31:18.619
met at Aspen. years earlier and then we went
00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:20.279
our separate ways and we went to totally different
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.000
schools in totally different parts of the country
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.259
and we we kept talking we kept being friends
00:31:24.259 --> 00:31:29.299
and we would visit sometimes and um And we were
00:31:29.299 --> 00:31:32.259
sort of lamenting to each other like, well, I
00:31:32.259 --> 00:31:34.420
really want to start a chamber group. I'm just
00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:38.640
not finding the right fit. This one worked for
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.500
a little while and then so -and -so moved away
00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:43.559
or whatnot. I just can't really find someone
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.240
to commit to it. And then we were like, but wait.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:51.000
But wait. Why is distance a problem? Why is distance
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:55.279
a problem? And we came up with this harebrained
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:58.529
idea to just start. like traveling to perform
00:31:58.529 --> 00:32:01.309
with each other and and to rehearse and record
00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:04.869
and and and in a way it was you know it's like
00:32:04.869 --> 00:32:07.390
the best of all situations because you're not
00:32:07.390 --> 00:32:10.529
just sort of you know with for lack of a better
00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:12.150
word stuck with people who are just immediately
00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:15.029
around you you can make those groups that um
00:32:15.029 --> 00:32:17.589
that means something and distance doesn't have
00:32:17.589 --> 00:32:19.450
to matter especially when there's only two people
00:32:19.450 --> 00:32:22.430
that's not a lot of coordinating to do that's
00:32:22.430 --> 00:32:27.539
right um and so um So we had that freedom just
00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:30.559
by being as we were. And at the time that the
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:33.700
duo began, I was in Canada and she was in Indiana.
00:32:34.099 --> 00:32:38.960
Yeah, right, Indiana. I went to both McGill University
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:43.039
and Indiana University. Oh, really? What a cool
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.220
coincidence. Well, so Charlene, you also studied
00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:47.859
Baroque violin with Stanley Ritchie? Yeah, I
00:32:47.859 --> 00:32:53.819
did. I did. And it was... Kind of the culminating
00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.640
portion of my studies with Baroque violin, I
00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:02.279
had it started in my undergraduate. I went to
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:04.940
Cornell University, and they do not have a performance
00:33:04.940 --> 00:33:10.339
program, but they have a great performance practice
00:33:10.339 --> 00:33:15.079
program up there. And so little undergraduate
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:19.410
me just started tagging along to things. I got
00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:23.589
to work with Neil Zaslaw and Malcolm Bilson,
00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:27.509
just playing the Baroque violin, learning how
00:33:27.509 --> 00:33:30.930
to hold the instrument and how to think of the
00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:34.069
music. And it was marvelous, since they were
00:33:34.069 --> 00:33:36.930
not violinists, that there was nothing technical
00:33:36.930 --> 00:33:42.049
about it. Just here's the research, here's what
00:33:42.049 --> 00:33:45.430
needs to happen, go figure it out, kind of an
00:33:45.430 --> 00:33:48.099
approach, which was... which was fun, really,
00:33:48.259 --> 00:33:50.799
really fun. And then I went to Peabody, and there
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.839
I studied the Baroque violin with Risa Browder.
00:33:54.259 --> 00:33:57.359
And she's obviously a violinist, and so we got
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.220
more into the technical things of how to really
00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:05.099
place the instrument. And so it was a really
00:34:05.099 --> 00:34:08.320
different relationship that really helped cement
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.719
how much I do actually like and love playing
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:13.860
the Baroque violin. And so when I went to Indiana...
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:20.099
It was a very easy choice for me to choose early
00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:22.840
music as one of my minors for my doctorate, and
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:27.300
it gave me lots of time with Stanley. I got to
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:31.380
learn how to play scordatura, how to read scordatura,
00:34:31.539 --> 00:34:34.440
which is mistuned violin playing. So although
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.480
the strings are in different tuning spots, it's
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:41.460
fascinating and really do a deep dive in repertoire.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.760
Did you play some of those Bieber sonatas? Oh,
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.500
yeah. Yeah. And you wrote a pedagogical handbook
00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:51.760
on style considerations in orchestral excerpts.
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.119
Hi, just a really quick break from the episode.
00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.739
I wanted to let you know about some other episodes
00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:01.619
I've linked directly to this one in the show
00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:04.139
notes, which I think may interest you with Juliana
00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:08.280
Soltis, Samantha Agee, Jennifer Johnson, Gail
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.739
Archer, the Euclid Quartet. Tegan Farren, Martha
00:35:12.739 --> 00:35:16.579
Antole, and Michael Stephen Brown. In the show
00:35:16.579 --> 00:35:19.039
notes, you'll also find a link to sign up for
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.639
my newsletter, where you'll get exclusive information
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.960
about upcoming guests, a link for my Ko -fi page
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.679
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00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.320
buy me one coffee or every month, and my podcast
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00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.980
on your podcast app, YouTube, and social media.
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.000
All this helps spread the word. Thanks. Now,
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.559
back to my conversation with Catherine and Charlene.
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:59.400
I did. So that was my final project, and it really
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:03.039
came out of a place where the honest truth is
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:06.510
I don't like playing orchestral excerpts. I don't
00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:08.530
like the audition process, and I'm sure that
00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:10.849
many people feel very similar about orchestral
00:36:10.849 --> 00:36:15.309
audition processes. I really dislike how separated
00:36:15.309 --> 00:36:18.849
from the actual music excerpt playing can feel.
00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:25.309
And that made me reconsider what the excerpt
00:36:25.309 --> 00:36:28.329
actually is. Because the moment that you take
00:36:28.329 --> 00:36:32.130
it out of its musical context, it turns into
00:36:32.130 --> 00:36:36.460
an etude. That is just not what music making
00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:42.800
is about for me personally. So in a former lifetime,
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.519
I was going to go be a scientist. And so I took
00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:48.960
upper level math. I took upper, you know, all
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.000
those kinds of things in college. And so I said,
00:36:53.019 --> 00:36:56.139
well, hey, why don't we look at this from a scientific
00:36:56.139 --> 00:36:59.719
standpoint, right? Which is, this is a huge,
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:04.360
huge, huge... opportunity for musicians to make
00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.219
or break a career, to make or break their finances.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.780
And if you look at, let's say, professional sports,
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:15.980
they have statistical analysis upon analysis,
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:19.679
numbers upon numbers of how this player does
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.760
this exact thing and things to modulate. But
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:26.280
we don't have this in music. Everything is very
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:29.480
much rooted in oral tradition and how one teacher
00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:32.380
teaches something. don't have access to the right
00:37:32.380 --> 00:37:36.199
teacher you may never win something um and so
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:40.239
my attempt at at this was twofold which was to
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.360
somewhat even out the playing field you know
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:49.300
of of looking at all of the recordings all the
00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:52.699
commercial recordings and say well some of these
00:37:52.699 --> 00:37:56.119
are outliers maybe not listen to to these ones
00:37:56.119 --> 00:38:00.570
but but these are good ideas um And then also
00:38:00.570 --> 00:38:03.929
look at the context of what does a dot over a
00:38:03.929 --> 00:38:06.250
note mean? It means something different for different
00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:11.769
composers. And so I did all that with statistics
00:38:11.769 --> 00:38:15.690
and math. I'm an orchestral musician, and I've
00:38:15.690 --> 00:38:19.070
been sitting on audition panels for most of my
00:38:19.070 --> 00:38:21.409
career. I completely understand where you're
00:38:21.409 --> 00:38:23.789
coming from, and it is such an issue. So I'm
00:38:23.789 --> 00:38:25.969
curious about a couple things. So this was an
00:38:25.969 --> 00:38:28.329
academic thing, but can people read this handbook?
00:38:29.070 --> 00:38:32.829
They can. It is available online. It is available
00:38:32.829 --> 00:38:37.710
through Indiana University. If you search for
00:38:37.710 --> 00:38:42.789
my name and the title, it's also available on
00:38:42.789 --> 00:38:45.110
my website, I believe. And I can also send you
00:38:45.110 --> 00:38:49.940
the link or the actual PDF to it. I show I have
00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:53.320
graphs and everything. Well, of course, I'm a
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:55.300
nerd, which is why I have this podcast. So I
00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:57.300
will. Well, of course, your website will be linked
00:38:57.300 --> 00:39:00.739
in the show notes for people. And my other question
00:39:00.739 --> 00:39:03.139
was that decision to not go into science full
00:39:03.139 --> 00:39:06.659
time. What was that like for you, Charlene? It
00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:10.380
was actually surprisingly easy, which is I got
00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:19.280
to college and I was doing homework. But I was
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.900
practicing more than I was doing homework. And
00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:26.400
I was in more orchestra. And I was doing more
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.760
chamber music. And I was taking more lessons
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:34.420
than I was doing my homework. And I've always
00:39:34.420 --> 00:39:37.280
been a very serious student. And I love studying
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:41.340
and I love learning. So that was an important
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:45.000
conversation. to have or realization to have
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:50.420
is how willing I was or not to let go of music
00:39:50.420 --> 00:39:54.420
in my life because that was going to be necessary
00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:58.039
in order to make it anywhere. And I realized
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.860
then that that was not going to be an option
00:40:00.860 --> 00:40:03.900
for me personally. And so we had to make that
00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:07.699
shift. And rather than go straight back to conservatory,
00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:11.179
which is where I had come from, and it turns
00:40:11.179 --> 00:40:14.420
out I needed a break. From that, I decided to
00:40:14.420 --> 00:40:20.639
stay. I got a degree in music, but not performance.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:24.059
So I got to do everything else around music.
00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:28.039
Early music, new music, music history, musicology,
00:40:28.179 --> 00:40:31.519
music theory, you name it, everything. And that
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.960
was so eye -opening and it's really been the
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.599
foundation for everything since then, including
00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:43.420
our recording project. Yeah. How about you, Catherine?
00:40:43.579 --> 00:40:45.920
Was there any doubt ever that you'd do music
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:51.940
full -time? No. I love it, though. I love it.
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.440
I mean, that's kind of the hilarious thing. I
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.480
was the child that was lining up her stuffed
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:01.460
animals to give concerts on her pillow. When
00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:05.539
I was really young, I was exposed to a lot of
00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:08.320
concerts and concerts of pianists and just classical
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:11.130
music in general. I don't know, there was something
00:41:11.130 --> 00:41:14.030
about it that just really struck me. And so I'm
00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:17.789
not kidding. I used to, you know, take my teddy
00:41:17.789 --> 00:41:19.989
bears and they would give piano recitals and
00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:22.309
I would have this music in my head and it makes
00:41:22.309 --> 00:41:24.750
me sound like some sort of deranged genius. And
00:41:24.750 --> 00:41:28.150
I'm no genius, but it was just, you know, I was
00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:34.429
really drawn to it. And music for me was an escape.
00:41:34.469 --> 00:41:37.909
And I just loved... being at the piano. I mean,
00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:40.170
I'll admit it got me out of chores when I was
00:41:40.170 --> 00:41:43.429
a kid. So I would practice more because I figured
00:41:43.429 --> 00:41:45.630
out early on that, like, I didn't have to go
00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:51.090
clean my room if I was practicing and, um, you
00:41:51.090 --> 00:41:52.969
know, and that's not the only reason I did it,
00:41:52.969 --> 00:41:57.050
but, um, you know, so for me, it was just, uh,
00:41:57.329 --> 00:42:00.750
I don't know why I can't say why I never questioned
00:42:00.750 --> 00:42:05.380
it. And I think it's just, I decided I liked
00:42:05.380 --> 00:42:09.360
it and there was really no reason to stop. And
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:14.079
I ended up going to a performing arts high school.
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.920
I went to the Walnut Hill School for the Arts
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.519
in Massachusetts. And that was really a place
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:21.719
where I could like immerse myself even more.
00:42:21.940 --> 00:42:24.260
And I was attending the NEC prep school before
00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:26.019
that, but that was only on Saturdays. And for
00:42:26.019 --> 00:42:28.420
me, that wasn't enough. I just wanted to be doing
00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:32.480
it all the time. You know, it was nice being
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:35.500
at a place like Walnut Hill because, you know,
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.480
we had our academics in the morning and then
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.579
the afternoon was filled with theory and ear
00:42:40.579 --> 00:42:44.820
training and solfege and music history and, you
00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:47.320
know, practicing chamber music. And for me, chamber
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:50.059
music was the best part of everything. Like,
00:42:50.059 --> 00:42:52.980
you know, yeah, it's cool to practice by yourself,
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.699
but there's something a little bit lonely about
00:42:55.699 --> 00:42:57.780
it. I think especially for pianists, like we
00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:01.279
spend so much time doing it by ourselves. And,
00:43:01.279 --> 00:43:03.280
you know, getting to play chamber music with
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:05.340
other people, I was like, what is this? You know,
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:09.039
this is so interesting. And it's just, you know,
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.019
another way to communicate through music. And,
00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:15.760
you know, so I just kind of ended up doing more
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.039
and more and more chamber music and more, you
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:21.460
know, I think maybe what's funny about it in
00:43:21.460 --> 00:43:24.619
the end is that I never went into a collaborative
00:43:24.619 --> 00:43:29.820
degree. And obviously for your undergrad, you
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:32.579
don't usually take that kind of specialization
00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:35.599
so much, but I always knew that chamber music
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:39.960
would be my career. And actually half the reason
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.739
I chose McGill was that at the time, they had
00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:48.159
a chamber music focus master's for pianists.
00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:50.239
Then they cut the program the moment I arrived.
00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:55.699
But I still got to do that focus and I got to
00:43:55.699 --> 00:45:05.030
make that a real... part of who I was. So I was
00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:06.849
curious, Catherine, in terms of your role as
00:45:06.849 --> 00:45:10.329
a collaborative pianist, like dealing with the
00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:12.170
stress of other people, like I know you've accompanied
00:45:12.170 --> 00:45:14.510
for things like the OSM competition. How do you
00:45:14.510 --> 00:45:20.150
deal with that? It's not always stressful. I
00:45:20.150 --> 00:45:24.510
actually think that one of the reasons I collaborate
00:45:24.510 --> 00:45:26.889
so much and do so much chamber music is that
00:45:26.889 --> 00:45:29.590
it's more comfortable to me than being alone
00:45:29.590 --> 00:45:32.610
on stage. Like being alone on stage is stressful
00:45:32.610 --> 00:45:35.550
to me. And, you know, being with other people
00:45:35.550 --> 00:45:39.469
is comforting and I like, you know, the aspect
00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:42.230
of communication and sort of like jointly bringing
00:45:42.230 --> 00:45:47.269
something together. You know, when I first started
00:45:47.269 --> 00:45:50.570
doing more collaborative work and really thinking
00:45:50.570 --> 00:45:52.130
like, well, this is going to be a part of my
00:45:52.130 --> 00:45:57.820
career, you know, I got. I got roped into doing
00:45:57.820 --> 00:46:00.360
brass music by some friends of mine who are also
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.460
grad students at McGill. And the funny thing
00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:05.179
about brass players is once they realize there's
00:46:05.179 --> 00:46:07.059
a pianist out there that knows their repertoire,
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:13.619
they go, oh. And then they're like, well, but
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:17.940
can you play the synonym? And, you know, and
00:46:17.940 --> 00:46:20.800
so I got pulled into doing the OSM competition.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:26.000
And it was actually like the worst. timing because
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:32.159
my it was right before my comp exams and um I
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:36.219
hadn't been like playing like all semester and
00:46:36.219 --> 00:46:39.380
then you know one day the OSM calls you and you're
00:46:39.380 --> 00:46:44.199
like okay and uh you know so I agreed to do this
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.949
thing and um I mean, it was a bit of a crazy
00:46:47.949 --> 00:46:50.110
experience, but I knew I'd been like reading
00:46:50.110 --> 00:46:52.889
for my comp exams for so long. I just kind of
00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:55.909
had to trust that everything was in there. And
00:46:55.909 --> 00:46:59.449
so I did. And I did, you know, OSM was the week
00:46:59.449 --> 00:47:02.869
before my comp exams. And it was just like so
00:47:02.869 --> 00:47:05.710
much music because, you know, they prepare, the
00:47:05.710 --> 00:47:09.489
finalists prepare these multiple programs and
00:47:09.489 --> 00:47:11.409
you don't actually know which ones are going
00:47:11.409 --> 00:47:13.070
to make it to the finals. Do you have to prepare
00:47:13.070 --> 00:47:18.130
that program anyway? And, um, one of mine ended
00:47:18.130 --> 00:47:21.769
up making it, um, which was pretty cool. You
00:47:21.769 --> 00:47:24.349
know, it was just really a fun experience to,
00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:27.070
to contribute to that and, and to work on it.
00:47:27.170 --> 00:47:30.570
And, um, you know, everything in the end ended
00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:33.030
up working out well. My comp exams, they happened,
00:47:33.150 --> 00:47:37.409
you know, I got a doctorate, so it, uh, it did
00:47:37.409 --> 00:47:41.309
happen. But, you know, I would say since then
00:47:41.309 --> 00:47:44.860
it's been, um, You know, just sort of like relying
00:47:44.860 --> 00:47:47.659
on experiences like those that I had when I was
00:47:47.659 --> 00:47:50.179
a student and knowing that like those skills
00:47:50.179 --> 00:47:53.400
are there. And and to me, that's comforting.
00:47:53.500 --> 00:47:57.000
And you still get called a lot for for a brass
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:03.340
rep. I do. I really should stop advertising that
00:48:03.340 --> 00:48:07.840
I know. I know he wrote the trumpet sonata. What
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.500
else did he write for brass? Oh, you name the
00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:14.569
brass instrument. There's a sonata. OK. Unfortunately,
00:48:14.569 --> 00:48:16.969
no, I can't say this out loud. No, okay, I can.
00:48:17.150 --> 00:48:19.510
I have unfortunately played the tuba sonata more
00:48:19.510 --> 00:48:24.670
times than I would like to admit. And the trombone
00:48:24.670 --> 00:48:31.030
one. Let me just ask you, Catherine, you've worked
00:48:31.030 --> 00:48:32.690
with a lot of great mentors. If there's anyone
00:48:32.690 --> 00:48:34.489
you wanted to reflect on and what you learned
00:48:34.489 --> 00:48:40.369
from them. My time with Dr. Lehman at McGill.
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:43.420
was, I think, some of the most formative for
00:48:43.420 --> 00:48:46.219
me. You know, I had a lot of really great piano
00:48:46.219 --> 00:48:48.519
teachers growing up and a lot of really great
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.760
connections with my piano teachers. But Sarah
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:54.139
was one of the people that really just brought
00:48:54.139 --> 00:48:58.420
everything together for me because, to me, she
00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:02.559
was who I wanted to be. And I think it's so important
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:06.619
for women in music to have, like, that person
00:49:06.619 --> 00:49:09.219
that they can look up to and see themselves in.
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.519
You know, she's a chamber musician. She does,
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:16.880
you know, modern music. She's playing solo. She's
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:19.719
got two kids. Like, you know, she got her doctorate.
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:22.659
She's full time at McGill and kind of like juggling
00:49:22.659 --> 00:49:25.920
a million things. And she was just kind of always
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:31.420
so stable for me. And, you know, I really I really
00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:34.230
looked up to her, not just like. with what I
00:49:34.230 --> 00:49:36.550
learned from her at the piano, it was everything
00:49:36.550 --> 00:49:39.090
else that she taught me about how to have a career.
00:49:39.670 --> 00:49:42.309
Because I feel like up until that point, you
00:49:42.309 --> 00:49:44.590
know, sometimes you make it through conservatory
00:49:44.590 --> 00:49:48.369
being like, but how? At the end of it, like,
00:49:48.389 --> 00:49:52.750
but how? How do I do this? And, you know, she
00:49:52.750 --> 00:49:54.969
was really important in sort of guiding what
00:49:54.969 --> 00:49:57.610
to do and when. And, you know, like, what do
00:49:57.610 --> 00:49:59.610
you say yes to? Like, where do you put your priorities?
00:50:01.369 --> 00:50:04.070
And that was really important for me. That's
00:50:04.070 --> 00:50:06.130
great to hear. And Charlene, it was interesting
00:50:06.130 --> 00:50:07.829
you reflecting that you were a bit burnt out
00:50:07.829 --> 00:50:09.989
from conservatory and that you had this break
00:50:09.989 --> 00:50:12.510
that was more academic, but still music making.
00:50:12.789 --> 00:50:16.650
Like for myself, I worry about this very narrow
00:50:16.650 --> 00:50:19.369
conservatory mindset. And even like I went to
00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:21.650
McGill and I took academic courses for my undergrad,
00:50:21.769 --> 00:50:24.650
but I definitely had some burnout, I think. So
00:50:24.650 --> 00:50:26.590
when I went to do my master's, I didn't take
00:50:26.590 --> 00:50:28.170
full advantage of things because I was just,
00:50:28.250 --> 00:50:30.250
yeah, I think I should have taken a different
00:50:30.250 --> 00:50:32.869
kind of. path but there was no one to really
00:50:32.869 --> 00:50:34.630
guide me it's like what do you exactly what do
00:50:34.630 --> 00:50:40.369
you do now right well i mean what's so special
00:50:40.369 --> 00:50:43.969
about our profession is is that unlike pretty
00:50:43.969 --> 00:50:46.130
much any other except for athletes and dancers
00:50:46.130 --> 00:50:50.230
we start when we are very very young so by the
00:50:50.230 --> 00:50:54.030
time that we we get to college we have been at
00:50:54.030 --> 00:50:58.719
our craft for 10, 13 years, 10 to 13 years easily.
00:50:59.059 --> 00:51:01.840
And so there is so much history and sometimes
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.099
some baggage there too, before we even consider
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:09.099
seriously doing this professionally. And then
00:51:09.099 --> 00:51:13.219
you, and then. That's the point in time at which
00:51:13.219 --> 00:51:17.280
you should be accelerating. And so I think you
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.800
are absolutely right that if the education is
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:23.840
too narrow, that acceleration can't happen because
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:28.260
you've already been too narrow for too long.
00:51:28.380 --> 00:51:32.539
And it stifles intellectual curiosity. I mean,
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:34.239
that's half the reason that I went to McGill
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.300
in the end, was that I felt like... being so
00:51:37.300 --> 00:51:41.119
conservatory focused for so long to me that was
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:42.940
that felt really narrow and I didn't know what
00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:44.840
the world was like and I wanted to know more
00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:49.099
about research and academics and you know I know
00:51:49.099 --> 00:51:51.019
that the undergrad program at McGill is really
00:51:51.019 --> 00:51:54.239
intense but for me being in the graduate programs
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.960
there was a certain amount of freedom there and
00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:02.119
also just sort of more exposure to things that
00:52:02.119 --> 00:52:08.000
were outside of just piano. And, um, and it's
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.300
really important, I think also for developing
00:52:10.300 --> 00:52:12.579
a career, because if you only know how to play
00:52:12.579 --> 00:52:14.719
the piano or you only know how to play the violin,
00:52:14.860 --> 00:52:17.320
you're not going to last very long. Like you
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:19.519
have to know how to basically like run a business
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.139
and that business is yourself. And, you know,
00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:24.000
you have to know how to market yourself. You
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.719
have to know how to apply for grants. And, you
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:28.840
know, I think we're both thankful that we had
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.460
the experiences that we did that helped us to
00:52:31.460 --> 00:52:34.679
write the grant that got Distance of the Gilded
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.639
Age. For example. Off the ground, for example.
00:52:38.019 --> 00:52:40.039
You know, that was a really important part of
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:43.840
just making it come to life. Sometimes you can't
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.619
do it without that support. Yeah. Actually, I
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:48.860
was curious, like, are you thinking of another
00:52:48.860 --> 00:52:53.000
album of women composers? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:57.320
It's in the workings right now. We are, well,
00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:00.780
we're doing multiple things, which is we are
00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:03.889
compiling the program, the actual program. so
00:53:03.889 --> 00:53:05.849
we're currently curating we're also looking for
00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:09.710
funding because these things do not come so cheaply
00:53:09.710 --> 00:53:17.170
and uh it is a lift and unless you have 501c3
00:53:17.170 --> 00:53:19.969
status for those in america which is not for
00:53:19.969 --> 00:53:25.070
for -profit status a lot of grants are not open
00:53:25.070 --> 00:53:27.530
to you which really limits the playing field
00:53:27.530 --> 00:53:30.449
now we are just two people and so we don't necessarily
00:53:30.449 --> 00:53:33.670
need not -for -profit um status because that
00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:36.170
comes with a whole board attached so then we
00:53:36.170 --> 00:53:38.570
would have a A board that's larger than the ensemble.
00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:43.469
Which doesn't make much sense to us. Right. So
00:53:43.469 --> 00:53:48.730
there is that aspect of planning another project
00:53:48.730 --> 00:53:51.250
like this as well. But we're definitely looking
00:53:51.250 --> 00:53:57.250
at strong women voices in the 20th and 21st century
00:53:57.250 --> 00:54:02.710
leaning into this idea of dissidence in the larger
00:54:02.710 --> 00:54:07.619
sense of the word. Great to hear. So I was actually
00:54:07.619 --> 00:54:08.980
curious because I knew you're both involved with
00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:11.940
new music and commissions. So you formed relationships
00:54:11.940 --> 00:54:15.440
with composers over years? Yes, we have. And
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:17.780
we're actually working right now on funding for
00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:20.840
a commission, as Charlene already alluded to.
00:54:20.980 --> 00:54:23.539
It's, you know, we sort of want to see how far
00:54:23.539 --> 00:54:26.480
we can take the idea of the dissidence and bring
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:29.099
it into the modern age. And I'm not saying that
00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:31.760
we'll necessarily release a CD called Dissidence
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:35.000
of the Modern Age, but it's sort of like that's
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:38.320
where we're going, is wanting to see, you know,
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:41.179
how we can bring this into the 20th and the 21st
00:54:41.179 --> 00:54:45.159
century. And on your website, there's an audio
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:48.380
of John Adams' road movies, First Movement. Yes.
00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:51.480
Yes. That recording is really old. That's actually
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.760
one of the first recordings we ever made together.
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:56.860
And it is live. And it is live. And, you know,
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.940
that's a really... It's not that old. It is.
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:05.360
Because that was one of your grad... Okay. All
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.800
right, we're done now. I'm going to reveal something
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.840
right now. That was from one of her grad recitals.
00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:14.679
and and the duo was fresh and at the time we
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:20.639
had um an americana program and and it had you
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:28.000
know the adams it had some ives gershwin uh there
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:31.840
was a piece by a canadian american composer and
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.019
there's one more thing on there and i can't remember
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:37.099
what it was it shall come to me it'll come to
00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:40.829
us it's been a long time but um You know, that
00:55:40.829 --> 00:55:44.150
was a program that we felt really showed off
00:55:44.150 --> 00:55:46.989
all of the duo's strengths. And, you know, we
00:55:46.989 --> 00:55:50.969
were learning it while not with each other. And,
00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:55.030
you know, we got together to play that at Charlene's
00:55:55.030 --> 00:55:58.190
recital. And it was just this like magical performance
00:55:58.190 --> 00:56:00.809
where like everything fits together. And, you
00:56:00.809 --> 00:56:02.210
know, when you've got a piece like that, that's
00:56:02.210 --> 00:56:05.210
all like hawkets and, you know, 16th notes and
00:56:05.210 --> 00:56:08.460
the patterns are changing. We just really felt
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:10.940
it was like a beautiful representation of what
00:56:10.940 --> 00:56:13.599
we can do together. And so we've always kept
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:16.659
it up on the website because, I don't know. A
00:56:16.659 --> 00:56:18.440
good recording is always a good recording. A
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:20.119
good recording is always a good recording. And
00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:22.960
you know, beyond that, it's really kind of emblematic.
00:56:23.019 --> 00:56:25.940
The energy of the first movement really is emblematic
00:56:25.940 --> 00:56:28.599
of the energy that keeps driving us forward too.
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:34.619
I love how you start and you're just on this
00:56:34.619 --> 00:56:39.900
train. And no matter how hard you try, it just
00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:43.739
pulls you in immediately, and it takes you for
00:56:43.739 --> 00:56:48.099
that ride. It's a very good title for the overall
00:56:48.099 --> 00:56:52.360
piece, I have to say. And so it's lived with
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:56.099
us for a really long time. We want to bring road
00:56:56.099 --> 00:56:58.460
movies back, actually. It's been in the works
00:56:58.460 --> 00:57:02.760
as well. Great to hear. So does either of you
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:11.190
compose or improvise? Well, I do not compose.
00:57:12.989 --> 00:57:16.349
I'm like an accidental arranger. You know, what's
00:57:16.349 --> 00:57:20.449
funny, I think it's like we both have like really
00:57:20.449 --> 00:57:25.110
traditional training. And one of the things that
00:57:25.110 --> 00:57:27.690
we've been asked to do more and more over the
00:57:27.690 --> 00:57:30.429
years is, you know, especially working in new
00:57:30.429 --> 00:57:36.460
music and crossover projects. you know more in
00:57:36.460 --> 00:57:38.840
chamber music like we've been asked to improvise
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:41.300
we've been asked to sort of like let loose from
00:57:41.300 --> 00:57:46.519
our really you know boxy roots and and it's it's
00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:49.179
something we've done um it's not something we've
00:57:49.179 --> 00:57:55.519
done as a duo no and um uh but you know occasionally
00:57:55.519 --> 00:57:58.539
we'll dabble in arranging but it's not something
00:57:58.539 --> 00:58:02.400
that we're you know I would say super, you know,
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:08.519
my Smythe arrangement is decent enough. Well,
00:58:08.659 --> 00:58:11.420
the only thing that I will say is that in early
00:58:11.420 --> 00:58:15.000
music, you're expected to improvise to a certain
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:18.820
extent, right? So that is the only place where
00:58:18.820 --> 00:58:22.500
I will say that I've had formal training in improvisation.
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:26.219
Actually, that's not true. That's not entirely
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:29.710
true. All of that was true, but now I do remember
00:58:29.710 --> 00:58:33.590
that my senior year of high school, I was living
00:58:33.590 --> 00:58:35.989
in Switzerland at the time, and I was also at
00:58:35.989 --> 00:58:39.650
conservatory there, and I had a class, a formal
00:58:39.650 --> 00:58:44.130
class, called atonal improvisation. Oh, yeah.
00:58:44.869 --> 00:58:50.269
I know. Yeah, it was a thing. In hindsight now,
00:58:50.409 --> 00:58:53.929
as a person who plays a lot of new music, I understand.
00:58:54.170 --> 00:58:56.750
But at the time, it seemed like the dumbest thing
00:58:56.750 --> 00:59:01.429
ever. But it was surprisingly hard to not suddenly
00:59:01.429 --> 00:59:05.610
go back into some form of tonality. Everyone
00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:10.730
kept on gravitating back towards, oh, fifths
00:59:10.730 --> 00:59:13.630
and beautiful major thirds and major sixths.
00:59:13.630 --> 00:59:18.690
But the idea was truly... bounce off of an idea
00:59:18.690 --> 00:59:22.110
and do not go with your your instincts now i
00:59:22.110 --> 00:59:26.769
get it but but so that is the only like improv
00:59:26.769 --> 00:59:29.210
training it's funny because i've been through
00:59:29.210 --> 00:59:31.070
a class like that too and i forgot i've done
00:59:31.070 --> 00:59:36.130
it right right yeah so charlene was your education
00:59:36.130 --> 00:59:38.730
in switzerland quite different than the states
00:59:38.730 --> 00:59:43.769
yes uh well i i grew up in german speaking schools
00:59:43.769 --> 00:59:47.320
k through 12. I came to the U .S. for college.
00:59:48.099 --> 00:59:51.320
I will definitely say that the education systems
00:59:51.320 --> 00:59:55.739
in general are vastly different. I mean, one
00:59:55.739 --> 00:59:59.239
of the biggest things is that, especially in
00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:01.380
the U .S., everyone goes through high school.
01:00:01.699 --> 01:00:07.380
Everyone goes to school for 12 years. And not
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:09.659
everyone goes to college afterwards, though.
01:00:10.110 --> 01:00:14.570
Whereas in the European systems, you get funneled
01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:18.800
down specific tracks pretty early on. So the
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:21.760
first fork in the road, if you're in the German
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:24.380
-speaking world, is at around fourth grade, where
01:00:24.380 --> 01:00:26.760
you get funneled into university track and not.
01:00:27.219 --> 01:00:29.780
And then there are on and off ramps throughout
01:00:29.780 --> 01:00:33.719
that time. But if you're in a non -university
01:00:33.719 --> 01:00:36.519
track, you finish school after 10 years of school,
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.860
and then you go into an apprenticeship. And it
01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:42.760
is only those people who will go on to college
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:47.940
that stay in school up until 12th grade. One
01:00:47.940 --> 01:00:51.019
of the weirdest experiences for me was that come
01:00:51.019 --> 01:00:53.960
11th grade, so once, you know, school's no longer
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:57.360
technically mandatory, I started being addressed
01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:01.059
as Frau Klügel, Miss, you know, Klügel. Miss
01:01:01.059 --> 01:01:04.420
Klügel, rather than my first name. So acknowledging
01:01:04.420 --> 01:01:09.599
a certain amount of adult agency in your education.
01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:12.539
And I just turned around and was like, who? That's
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:17.639
my mom. That's my mom. That's not me. And so
01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:21.719
because there's the specialization earlier on,
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.980
everything is a lot more rigorous and narrow
01:01:24.980 --> 01:01:31.619
and very precise. It does not necessarily allow
01:01:31.619 --> 01:01:37.280
for discovery processes or reinvention. And if
01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:41.099
you want to change majors in college, which get...
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:45.239
declared before you even start, you have to restart
01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:49.739
the entire program. So it's the stakes in many
01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:53.280
ways are higher. And, and so what was really
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.239
nice for me and coming here was having the freedom
01:01:56.239 --> 01:02:00.360
to just figure things out a little bit. Okay,
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:05.400
interesting. And how about, you know, self care
01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:09.440
balance a holistic life and music? I'm sorry,
01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:13.159
what was that? What is that? We both have kids,
01:02:13.340 --> 01:02:20.960
so self -care is like this fleeting idea. I'm
01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:24.039
just kidding. But, you know, it's definitely
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.420
something that we have to constantly work at
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:32.639
because we do both have families and we're busy
01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:37.360
and we teach and we perform. um you know we're
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:42.400
doing the have it all thing and um you know you
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:46.000
have to sometimes self -care is just setting
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.179
the boundary to say i need to practice right
01:02:48.179 --> 01:02:54.059
now and i think that for us is uh really important
01:02:54.059 --> 01:02:55.900
i mean i don't want to speak for charlene but
01:02:55.900 --> 01:02:58.380
but we talk about this a lot about you know sort
01:02:58.380 --> 01:03:01.039
of the compromises you have to make and where
01:03:01.039 --> 01:03:05.969
you find the time for things because um I think
01:03:05.969 --> 01:03:09.090
in some ways, society expects that when you have
01:03:09.090 --> 01:03:12.250
kids, you're just going to stop practicing. And
01:03:12.250 --> 01:03:14.909
somehow people seem to be surprised that we still
01:03:14.909 --> 01:03:23.010
do. And I know why. It's hard. It's very hard,
01:03:23.110 --> 01:03:26.389
and your time is already very valuable as a musician.
01:03:26.570 --> 01:03:29.610
And then you add something like a child into
01:03:29.610 --> 01:03:31.570
it, and then your time becomes even more valuable.
01:03:33.340 --> 01:03:35.440
In some ways, I have to say I haven't practiced
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:39.179
as efficiently as I have since having a kid.
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:42.179
Oh, that's so true. If I had known about practicing
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:47.119
what I do now. Oh, man. Yeah. Like, I think it's
01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:50.219
actually like we waste so much time when we're
01:03:50.219 --> 01:03:53.539
students. And, you know, like I remember being
01:03:53.539 --> 01:03:56.460
a student and practicing for like six hours a
01:03:56.460 --> 01:03:58.539
day. And like, what was I doing? I was getting
01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:03.159
nothing done. You know, and I just think of sort
01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:06.139
of like the efficiency now, like, you know what
01:04:06.139 --> 01:04:07.940
you have to do, you have a plan, you make it,
01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:13.099
you do it. And I think for me, that's been really
01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:17.400
enlightening in some ways and comforting and
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:21.079
others and just being able to trust that, you
01:04:21.079 --> 01:04:24.059
know, my technique is there for me. And, and
01:04:24.059 --> 01:04:29.260
you don't need six hours to do it. Yeah, I mean,
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.960
my kids are now well into their 20s, but I can
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:34.920
relate. And my husband's also a musician. But,
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:36.860
you know, it struck me at a certain point that
01:04:36.860 --> 01:04:39.039
I needed to, I think it was after my mother died,
01:04:39.219 --> 01:04:41.639
that I needed to set an example for my daughters
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:44.139
for self -care. Like, I started going to this
01:04:44.139 --> 01:04:46.719
weekly exercise class that somehow fit into my
01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:49.139
crazy schedule. But I could, mostly Tuesday evenings,
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.940
I was able to go to this one little thing. And
01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:53.940
it was, at that time, it was very beneficial
01:04:53.940 --> 01:04:57.300
for me also to be in community and not... feel
01:04:57.300 --> 01:04:59.739
isolated and i remember thinking i want them
01:04:59.739 --> 01:05:02.920
to not see me as someone always making sacrifices
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:05.559
because i don't want them to be that type of
01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:08.199
women you know what i mean yeah that's a really
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:12.340
good point that you you raise i mean so much
01:05:12.340 --> 01:05:14.579
of self -care as a musician is taking care of
01:05:14.579 --> 01:05:17.000
your body because if your your body's not functioning
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:20.820
optimally good luck playing right and so i've
01:05:20.820 --> 01:05:23.139
i've also recently learned to carve out time
01:05:23.139 --> 01:05:27.170
for to just take care of you know things like
01:05:27.170 --> 01:05:30.530
my abs and all the all all all of the muscle
01:05:30.530 --> 01:05:33.789
groups that i did not know were important until
01:05:33.789 --> 01:05:36.750
i i was i was pregnant and no longer had them
01:05:36.750 --> 01:05:45.730
yeah i'm lucky i get to sit to play and how about
01:05:45.730 --> 01:05:48.690
how has your teaching changed i'd like you to
01:05:48.690 --> 01:05:50.710
both reflect on this like you both been teaching
01:05:50.710 --> 01:05:52.289
a long time you've had all these experiences
01:05:52.289 --> 01:05:58.840
who wants to go first My teaching has become
01:05:58.840 --> 01:06:04.619
more and more efficient because even though we
01:06:04.619 --> 01:06:08.059
study pedagogy in school, we get all these great
01:06:08.059 --> 01:06:13.460
ideas, all this great guidance on here are things
01:06:13.460 --> 01:06:15.380
that work, here is the methodology, all those
01:06:15.380 --> 01:06:18.579
things, you don't actually know what it's like
01:06:18.579 --> 01:06:22.880
until you test it. in the wild, right? And so,
01:06:22.900 --> 01:06:26.360
so much of what my teaching now is knowing the
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:30.699
sequencing, knowing the exact sequencing, but
01:06:30.699 --> 01:06:34.239
being super tuned into and empathetic to where
01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:37.500
my students currently are, both technically and
01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:41.239
emotionally. I think that's probably the biggest
01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:43.360
thing that also happened with being a parent,
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:47.940
quite frankly. Yeah, I mean, certainly experience
01:06:47.940 --> 01:06:52.519
over time changes a lot of things. And I think,
01:06:52.539 --> 01:06:55.639
you know, yeah, you learn a lot about pedagogy
01:06:55.639 --> 01:06:58.480
in school and then you start doing it out in
01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:02.800
the wild. And it's different than it is in practice.
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:06.320
And there's so much more variety in your students.
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.659
And there's so much more variety to the people
01:07:08.659 --> 01:07:11.159
you will meet and the repertoire that you encounter.
01:07:15.050 --> 01:07:20.989
You know, I think over time I've become very
01:07:20.989 --> 01:07:24.389
flexible with my students, you know, sort of
01:07:24.389 --> 01:07:26.889
understanding that they're all in different places.
01:07:26.889 --> 01:07:28.550
They all learn in different rates and they all
01:07:28.550 --> 01:07:31.210
have their own strengths and weaknesses. And
01:07:31.210 --> 01:07:34.880
what you want to do as a teacher is. find the
01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:38.840
ways to really prop up the strengths. It's hard
01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:41.699
today when you're competing with a million sports
01:07:41.699 --> 01:07:46.860
that your students have going on. What do you
01:07:46.860 --> 01:07:49.980
want them to get out of their lessons with you?
01:07:50.139 --> 01:07:52.619
At the end of the day, it's got to be that love
01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:55.260
of music. That's got to be above everything else.
01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:59.260
If making them play that scale perfectly is going
01:07:59.260 --> 01:08:01.719
to destroy all of their love, sometimes you have
01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:05.500
to... you know, put that aside and find other
01:08:05.500 --> 01:08:08.539
ways to get them there. And I think that's one
01:08:08.539 --> 01:08:11.280
of the fun things about teaching because I, you
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:13.079
know, we already alluded to this earlier, how
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:16.779
conservatory training can be kind of strict sometimes
01:08:16.779 --> 01:08:19.960
and it sort of puts things into a box and sometimes
01:08:19.960 --> 01:08:23.260
the box isn't very fun. And I think one of the
01:08:23.260 --> 01:08:26.859
joys of teaching for me has been helping my students.
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.460
find the beauty in a scale and find the beauty
01:08:30.460 --> 01:08:33.020
in a technical exercise and that it doesn't just
01:08:33.020 --> 01:08:35.479
have to be about your metronome and feeling like
01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:37.720
you're in front of the drill sergeant like there's
01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:40.180
there's a lot of beauty in there and there's
01:08:40.180 --> 01:08:42.399
other ways to access it even when you're just
01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:45.380
doing technique oh i love that i love everything
01:08:45.380 --> 01:08:47.779
you guys are saying i want to make a repertoire
01:08:47.779 --> 01:08:50.600
suggestion for you oh please have you have you
01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:55.689
heard of robert kahn k -a -h -n I can't say that
01:08:55.689 --> 01:08:58.390
we have. I don't think so. So actually on my
01:08:58.390 --> 01:09:01.510
YouTube, I do have his sonata in A minor from
01:09:01.510 --> 01:09:05.770
a concert I did. So he was a, I think he was
01:09:05.770 --> 01:09:07.810
in Berlin. I should have looked him up again,
01:09:07.909 --> 01:09:10.109
but I linked in the show notes information about
01:09:10.109 --> 01:09:12.390
him. So he had to leave because of the Nazis.
01:09:12.529 --> 01:09:14.149
He was already a very well -established composer,
01:09:14.369 --> 01:09:16.270
and he lived out the rest of his life in England
01:09:16.270 --> 01:09:21.130
and continued to compose hundreds of works, chamber
01:09:21.130 --> 01:09:26.010
music. solo piano yeah and he was um so it's
01:09:26.010 --> 01:09:28.609
very Brahmsian uh very much he was at the end
01:09:28.609 --> 01:09:31.789
of that era just gorgeous music and there's so
01:09:31.789 --> 01:09:33.710
much out there that just hasn't people aren't
01:09:33.710 --> 01:09:37.529
playing it yet so ah well thank you for the recommendation
01:09:37.529 --> 01:09:41.170
because we are actually also working on an exiled
01:09:41.170 --> 01:09:45.409
music music and arts program so we will definitely
01:09:45.409 --> 01:09:47.270
look at this one I know that was like an aha
01:09:47.270 --> 01:09:52.079
moment like did we read our minds I just thought,
01:09:52.340 --> 01:09:54.859
you know, I want to advocate for his music and
01:09:54.859 --> 01:09:57.520
yeah. Okay, well, thanks so much for today. It's
01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:59.880
great getting to know you. Thank you. Likewise,
01:09:59.880 --> 01:10:03.899
thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Keep
01:10:03.899 --> 01:10:06.779
in mind, I've also linked directly several episodes
01:10:06.779 --> 01:10:08.899
you'll find interesting in the show notes of
01:10:08.899 --> 01:10:11.300
this one. Please do share this with your friends
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and check out episodes you may have missed at
01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:17.000
leahroseman .com. If you could buy me a coffee
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:18.960
to support this series, that would be wonderful.
01:10:19.529 --> 01:10:22.109
I'm an independent podcaster, and I really do
01:10:22.109 --> 01:10:24.470
need the help of my listeners. All the links
01:10:24.470 --> 01:10:26.989
are in the show notes. The podcast theme music
01:10:26.989 --> 01:10:29.510
was written by Nick Cold. Have a wonderful week.