WEBVTT
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Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
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I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
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We'd love for you to join us.
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I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
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Kia ora, everyone.
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Welcome to Constellations and All That.
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Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Ursula Maria Bell.
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Welcome, Ursula.
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Thank you very much, and thank you for having me.
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Aw, you're welcome.
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This is exciting.
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Yeah, a, an admirer of, of from a distance for a very long time, so, um, I'm excited to have you on board on, on this conversation.
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Would you like to introduce a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers, please?
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Sure.
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Uh, so my name is Ursula Maria Bell.
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Actually, I have three first names, Ursula Maria Elizabeth, but it was a bit, it's a bit too long.
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And Maria is the name of my, of the first wife of my grandfather, and also of the first wife of my great-grandfather who died.
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So, uh, when I realized that, I kind of as honoring them- Mm … I included the second name also in my official name.
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Um, yeah, what, what can I say?
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I'm from Germany, born in Germany, raised in Germany.
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Uh, left Germany in 2004 with my husband.
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We have lived in different countries since then.
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Every country gave me something amazing.
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And- Mm … uh, we have a… I'm 66 years old.
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We have a daughter of 25.
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I'm married since 27 years, so, um, yeah, I would say a very lively life with all kinds of ups and downs.
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I came to constellations through- My own experience, uh, painful experience with my mother and my sister.
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Mm. And a friend of mine, she knew about constellations and she said,"Well, you know, you're angry and you're hurt, and it might be good to look at this because if not, your daughter might carry it along and, and there is a workshop you can join." And I got in touch with that person.
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And, uh, before that I was trained in Viktor Frankl's logotherapy and existential ana- analysis.
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I al- always struggle.
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Analysis.
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Analysis, yes.
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Yeah.
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And it was something that is, or it's still something that is very close to my heart, and still I was looking for something that would combine also the, the heart and the soul and the body, and so the whole being.
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Mm.
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And when I did my first constellation in that workshop, I said, "This is it. This is what I had been looking for."
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Mm.
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And I asked the facilitator,"Where can I learn this?
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I want to learn this." And he said,"I have just started a training and you can still join." Well, this was- Wow … in 2010 or '11, I think.
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And since then I'm-
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Yeah
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I'm on the constellation path.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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Who was the trainer that you worked with?
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Uh, Conrad Pinecker.
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Nobody knows him, or few people know him.
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So I never trained with one of the big names.
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I'm always … I just go with where universe takes me- Yeah … and what my heart feels.
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And I can say he was the perfect trainer and we It was not only about constellations, but- He integrated other approaches.
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Mm. So for me, this opened up I think already the path which I'm now going, and, uh, it's also the title of my book.
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So the subtitle, More Than Constellations.
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Mm. And I more and more realize that, yes, constellations are a wonderful technique, but it's, it's about the inner posture that we work with.
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Yeah.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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And I love that, um, you know, I mean, like you said, you didn't train with one of the, the big names, but when you go through the lineage, there'll be… I mean, it all comes from the, the source, doesn't it?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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You know, the- Yes, yes … the thread that flows down, exactly.
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And- Absolutely.
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But you know, I think that we forget that there are so many amazing trainers out there-
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Yeah… Ursula: that we don't hear about, feel sad about, that everything foc- or everybody focuses on this and this and this, um, or that person and that person and that person, and we forget about the thousands others that- Yeah
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might not be known, but they are just amazing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I agree.
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I agree.
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That's why I'm loving doing this podcast, you know, helping to spotlight all sorts of people as well.
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Yeah.
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You know?
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That's
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beautiful.
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That's beautiful.
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Um, yeah.
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Let's talk about your book,'cause you've got your cover there in the background, and- Yeah um, in the spirit of
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love-
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So this is- Yeah?
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Wait a moment.
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I don't know if you see
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it.
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Yeah, that's In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation.
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And Reconciliation, and the subtitle is, no, you, you can't see it with the background, More Than Constellations.
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It was published in December 2024, and I had planned to write it years before.
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And I always started a little bit, a little bit, but it never happened.
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And then eventually in, um, 2023, uh, in, in autumn, I got a sciatica so painful that I couldn't move anymore, and it took me months- And went to doctors and they said, "Operation," and all these things, and I said, "No, no way." And in the end I asked my training group, "Would you be willing to have a look at this with me?" So we did a constellation about the situation and we had, uh, we had, uh, representatives for my sciatica nerve, for the pain, for myself, for the two vertebrae where the herniated disc was.
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And it was a blind constellation, so nobody knew about who they represented.
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Yeah.
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And in the end it came out, share your legacy.
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And some, another, I don't know which representative it was, and said, "A book, a book. I s- I see a book. You have to write a book." And nobody knew that I had this in mind, so it was so funny.
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And I said, "Yeah, actually, there is a book waiting." Yeah.
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And I promised myself and I promised my body I would write that book.
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What can I say?
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Two days after, my pain was gone.
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It never came back.
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Wow.
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And, uh, and-
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Bodies are incredible speakers, aren't they?
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They're incredible when we, when we're listening to them.
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It's, it's, you know, if, if I didn't experience it myself Mm-hmm … I would say you're crazy.
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And, and then I, I started.
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So this was in March 2024, and then I, I really started in April and then the whole summer, and I published it in December 2024.
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Yes.
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And it's basically, it shares my own journey from, you know, a simple participant to the facilitator and eventually the trainer.
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I included this to encourage others-
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Mm… Ursula: to understand that first of all So I started when I was 50.
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To encourage people to follow their dreams and follow their, their, their, where universe wants them to be.
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Yeah.
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And on the other hand, I included a lot of, of course, about constellations, about the orders of love and helping, but also my way of seeing them.
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I wrote a lot about reconciliation, because for me this is where they are guiding us to about love.
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What does love mean?
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What does love mean for me?
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How do I see it?
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Uh, expectation.
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So, um, pain.
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Uh-huh.
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So there are, uh, different- Is
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there a snippet of that that you could share with us that maybe- I wasn't prepared for that … open a book and see what, what pops out?
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Okay.
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So let's maybe… Because what we usually do is we reject our past, we reject our parents, we reject others.
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There are so many people who talk about cutting ties and, you know, uh, for me, it is very important to use the use of words.
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If it, for example, if you talk about to cut, this is very aggressive, and aggressive words cannot heal.
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So for me, it is from, uh, from rejection to acknowledgement.
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Yeah.
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And the, the biggest rejection, I think, is about rejecting ourselves.
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So people come and they say, "Oh, I, I've, I've worked so hard on myself." I want to read just that part, if that's okay for
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you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Sounds good.
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So the decision to shift from rejection and judgment to acceptance and acknowledgement is not passive resignation.
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It does not mean giving up.
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It is the most active and conscious decision we can make The first step to love and reconciliation, especially in regards to ourselves.
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Mm-hmm.
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Many clients tell me, "I have worked so hard on myself for so long, and I'm still not there." My answer usually is, "Stop working so hard on yourself." Working hard on ourselves means that we are not right, we are not good enough, not how we should be.
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Let me ask you a question.
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What happens to a child who is constantly receiving the message, "You are not right.
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You are not enough.
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You are not how you should be"?
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Sounds familiar?
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Does it bring back memories from childhood or school days?
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Well, that's how many of us treat ourselves day by day.
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Instead of finding peace with who we are and embracing the wonderful being of our true nature, instead of seeing what is good and beautiful in us, we judge and punish ourselves for each and everything that is not what we or others consider perfect.
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Wow, that's lovely.
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Yeah.
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So
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this is- And it's so-
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Yeah, this is the, the, the basic tenor of the book.
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And many people who have read it say they love it because they just open it and… So it's not a book that you need to read from the beginning to the end.
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Mm.
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Or you go through the, the table of contents, and you pick a topic, or you just open it and read it.
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Mm. And, uh, and this is what I wanted.
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Simple language, nothing that you need to write… to read three times to understand it.
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Yeah.
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But just as I speak to people, yeah.
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That's fas- fantastic.
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It, um… And an amazing resource for people as well to be able to, you know- Even maybe even ask a question or looking for support or-
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Yes, yes yeah.
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Some people have it on their, you know, bed, bed table.
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So they trust, yes.
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And- Well, I was sharing with, um, someone earlier today actually that, you know, 'cause when someone writes a book, all of their consciousness is in the field already, right?
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'Cause you've, you've had those thoughts.
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You've put it there, and so it's already in the, out there.
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So I often sleep with lots of books.
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Some I've read and some I haven't.
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And my, sleep be- with them beside me, not in the bed with me.
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And my intention is to, to receive the knowledge that I need.
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Yes.
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Uh, you know?
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Like, particularly if I'm, if I'm doing a big workshop or if I've got other things.
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And I, and I swap them out.
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I don't have the same things.
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I tune into the, into my little library and what books do I need for those who are coming toward, you know, near me right now.
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Yeah.
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And it might only be that I've got one or two on the books- on the nightstand, or sometimes I've got, like, a big stack.
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Yeah, so.
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I
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had an, an interesting experience with books years ago.
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I think it was bef- no, after I did the training with Constellations.
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Um, I sold nearly all my books.
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I kept, I think, five because I said, "I have put so many things in my head. Now I want to create a situation where I want to see what is inside of me." Mm-hmm.
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What happens if I stop putting information?
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So I stopped workshops.
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I stopped reading.
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I just allowed things to come.
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Mm. And it was one of the most beautiful times in my life.
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To realize the, the, the richness that we have inside.
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I'm not only speaking about myself, because I know we all have it.
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But we are so focused on and trained on you need to learn, you need to put it in, you, you know, you need to be better, better, better, that we very often miss that time and space where we realize what, what is the wisdom that is inside of us.
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Mm. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And, and have that time to pause and- Yes … and to listen.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Beautiful.
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Beautiful.
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And you shared just, um, before that you were doing the, the Viktor Frankl-
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Yes, yes … Frankl thing.
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So Viktor Frankl, the, um, logotherapy was my first training, and for me it … The interesting thing is that when I started then with constellations I thought I had put aside logotherapy, but then I realized more and more, especially then when I started, uh, to offer my, my training, how much of Frankl I included in my teaching.
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Um, you know, the, the, the, the inner poster, uh, that I, that I try to convey to my participants is, is based on Viktor Frankl's respect for the human being.
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Mm.
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And taking on responsibility for the choices for their lives.
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Um, it's like, you know, you can go on for your whole life blaming your parents for what has been, or you can let it, acknowledge it and say, "Okay, now I'm grown up.
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Now I can take responsibility for my, for my life.
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What do I do with it?
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I am the one who can decide who I'm going to be in the next moment of my life." Yeah.
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So this is Viktor Frankl.
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But on the other-
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I, I hadn't heard of logotherapy before, so it's, it's fascinating.
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So Viktor Frankl is, uh, is the third y- logotherapy is the third Viennese school of psychotherapy after Freud and Adler.
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Mm-hmm.
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Freud is the one who said the human being is a being in search of lust.
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Adler said it's a being in search of power, and Viktor Frankl said, no, the human being is a being in search of meaning, and this is amazing.
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So when we, when we, when we live … Because for me it is, I can only teach what I live.
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I cannot teach something and live something different.
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Yeah.
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So when, when we live on this basis, it's all about meaning, finding what… how, how does my life get meaning?
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How do my, my … What meaning do my, my, my daily actions and reactions have?
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What do they bring in this world?
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But the more I worked with constellations, then I realized, but also here something is missing.
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Because if I'm still entangled with an ancestor, if I'm still loyal to someone in my family, the meaning I might think- I bring in my li- in my life, in my present life might still not be mine.
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Mm. That's right.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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And on the other hand, if I work with constellations and I let go of the loyalties and entanglements, what is the next step?
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Mm. The next step then for me is, okay, now I take responsibility and I bring something good in my life.
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So it is neither the one nor the other, but it is bringing them all together.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that's what I love about constellations is the, mm, the fluidity of being able to infuse other modalities with it, right?
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And there are so many, um, without actually losing the constellation, the, or the essence of it, but being able to bring in other things to support it.
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Yes.
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Mm. And the essence of constellations for me are the orders of love and the orders of helping.
00:17:36.101 --> 00:17:45.922
And sometimes, you know, if we really integrate them in our life, we don't need the, the, the constellation, the tool anymore.
00:17:46.124 --> 00:17:59.080
Mm. Because if I integrate the orders of love in my life, I will kind of do constellations every time I interact with someone, acknowledging, honoring.
00:17:59.267 --> 00:18:04.465
So, uh, these for me are the, the… It, it's the basis.
00:18:04.502 --> 00:18:13.174
And some people say, I, I… Lately I read the orders of love are patriarchal, and I think you didn't get it.
00:18:13.635 --> 00:18:18.682
Because this is not about men and women, about who is right, who is wrong.
00:18:19.601 --> 00:18:20.893
It is much more.
00:18:20.894 --> 00:18:22.364
It goes much deeper.
00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:26.009
It is about finding our place.
00:18:26.078 --> 00:18:30.709
Uh, and it has nothing to do with being more important or not.
00:18:31.340 --> 00:18:40.167
Mm. And so for me, there, there… the danger is a lot of misunderstandings in this field.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.170
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:41.901 --> 00:18:42.917
Yeah, that is, is-
00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:44.244
Or what I have to do.
00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:44.796
Yeah.
00:18:45.321 --> 00:18:51.056
Yeah, it's important that it's communicated in, in, in its true essence for the understanding, right?
00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:52.352
Yes.
00:18:52.352 --> 00:18:54.827
Mm. And here we are with love and reconciliation.
00:18:54.844 --> 00:18:56.558
Here we are with the inner posture.
00:18:57.179 --> 00:19:01.587
I have been to, as a representative, to workshops where I was forced to bow.
00:19:01.708 --> 00:19:15.903
And I never force anyone to bow, because bowing for me is one of the most sacred movements that we can do, but it, it, it needs time and place to come.
00:19:16.251 --> 00:19:17.798
And if it comes, it comes.
00:19:17.810 --> 00:19:19.976
If it doesn't come, it doesn't come at that moment.
00:19:19.977 --> 00:19:19.992
Yeah.
00:19:20.345 --> 00:19:22.804
So who am I as a facilitator to force that?
00:19:23.769 --> 00:19:28.676
And I remember one constellation where I, I, I, I was the issue holder.
00:19:28.728 --> 00:19:33.304
And then there was this final where I really wanted to bow to that ancestor.
00:19:33.327 --> 00:19:39.183
I had this inner, yes, I want to bow, but I wanted to take my time to really feel it.
00:19:39.624 --> 00:19:41.988
And the facilitator came from behind, pushed me, "Bow."
00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:42.837
Oh, wow.
00:19:42.837 --> 00:19:46.230
And I said, "What is that?" And it was someone with a big name.
00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:47.790
I don't want… You know?
00:19:47.901 --> 00:19:50.910
So it, it is just, as you said, what is the essence?
00:19:51.487 --> 00:19:51.732
Yeah.
00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:58.439
What is the essence and the true spirit, and how do we bring our work into that world?
00:19:59.007 --> 00:20:02.332
And this is not to judge, it's just to share my own experience.
00:20:02.635 --> 00:20:04.422
Everybody can do it as they want.
00:20:04.528 --> 00:20:06.575
People choose- Yeah, mm-hmm … with whom they work.
00:20:06.608 --> 00:20:08.123
That's perfectly okay.
00:20:08.123 --> 00:20:09.271
We are millions of people.
00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:16.968
I think in the situations too, there are situations that show up for us to go, "Okay, well, uh, that's not how I'm gonna facilitate."
00:20:17.049 --> 00:20:17.438
Yes.
00:20:17.521 --> 00:20:17.737
You know?
00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:17.952
Yes.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:23.721
It's, it's, uh… I had to exper- experience that to go- Yes"Oh no, there's no way I want to do
00:20:23.753 --> 00:20:24.327
that." We have got to experience it.
00:20:24.818 --> 00:20:24.994
Yes, it does.
00:20:24.994 --> 00:20:25.005
Yes.
00:20:25.005 --> 00:20:25.259
Yeah.
00:20:25.314 --> 00:20:25.455
Yes.
00:20:25.641 --> 00:20:26.105
Yeah.
00:20:26.452 --> 00:20:26.894
Yeah.
00:20:27.211 --> 00:20:28.303
Ah, brilliant.
00:20:28.324 --> 00:20:33.631
How has, how has constellation impacted on your family for, for your system?
00:20:33.963 --> 00:20:36.239
Is there a… C- can you see?
00:20:36.683 --> 00:20:48.967
So for my, my system of origin, it… As I said, I had this, this, uh… I started with constellations because of that painful experience with my mother and my sister.
00:20:49.263 --> 00:21:02.228
Um, my mother, my mother died, so I couldn't physically, I would say, make peace with her because she had dementia in her last years.
00:21:03.018 --> 00:21:15.558
And still I had, as it's also in my book, I had this- beautiful experience with her when, uh, I saw her for the last time where she didn't recognize me anymore.
00:21:16.178 --> 00:21:21.655
And, um, she said, "I don't know who you are." And then I just sat next to her.
00:21:21.656 --> 00:21:29.103
I held her in my arms and I allowed … First, I, my life passed in front of my eyes.
00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:34.141
You know, how I suffered with her many times, what she did, what I would have needed.
00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:40.529
And then her life, I saw her life in my mind passing.
00:21:41.347 --> 00:21:49.224
Mm. And how difficult her life was and the losses she had and the pain she endured.
00:21:49.694 --> 00:21:58.397
And then I just felt gratitude for, that she, after all that, she gave life to me and she allowed me- Yeah … to be in this world.
00:21:58.955 --> 00:22:06.355
And in that moment she opened her eyes, she looked at me and she said, "Ursula." Mm. I still get goosebumps when I think of it.
00:22:06.865 --> 00:22:17.378
And I said, "Yeah, do you, do you know me now?" And she said, "No, I don't know you, but I know your eyes." And this for me was … And the eyes are the language of the soul.
00:22:17.388 --> 00:22:19.287
That is … This is- Mm … how our souls connect.
00:22:19.752 --> 00:22:24.071
So for me, this was everything is good, everything is healed, everything is fine.
00:22:24.484 --> 00:22:30.962
My father was already dead when I started with constellations, but, so I, I just could reconcile with them in my heart.
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:40.340
With my sister, there is still, uh, unfortunately a situation where she doesn't want to- Really get in touch.
00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:44.948
She is in her old story, and I offered several times to connect.
00:22:45.224 --> 00:22:47.976
Eventually, I just said,"She's in my heart.
00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:48.739
She's my sister.
00:22:48.739 --> 00:22:49.297
I love her.
00:22:49.307 --> 00:22:54.492
If, at any time she wants to reconnect, I'm here." Um, but I'm
00:22:54.492 --> 00:22:54.521
at peace.
00:22:54.521 --> 00:22:57.406
And, and that's the beauty of constellations when we get that, right?
00:22:57.935 --> 00:22:58.127
Yes.
00:22:58.127 --> 00:22:58.137
Yes.
00:22:58.169 --> 00:23:02.636
And we're not trying to force anything, and we're just- Yes … we're, uh, taking them as they are.
00:23:02.636 --> 00:23:02.653
Yes.
00:23:03.255 --> 00:23:06.762
And that is how it is because- Yeah … you can't change them.
00:23:06.898 --> 00:23:10.280
It's, uh- Yeah … we can only change that part of us as to how I- We can
00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:13.075
only- Yeah change, transform something within us.
00:23:13.585 --> 00:23:13.809
Mm-hmm.
00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:18.753
And for my present family, I can say that constellations have saved my mar- my marriage.
00:23:18.782 --> 00:23:19.214
Yes.
00:23:19.596 --> 00:23:20.295
Mm.
00:23:20.596 --> 00:23:20.806
Yes.
00:23:20.806 --> 00:23:24.962
Mm. They have changed the way I live my relationship.
00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:36.131
They have… Yeah, it was very hard at the beginning, but after 27 years, I can say I'm so glad that I have the best man I, I can have next to
00:23:36.131 --> 00:23:36.445
me.
00:23:36.546 --> 00:23:37.398
Fantastic.
00:23:37.444 --> 00:23:38.665
That's wonderful to hear.
00:23:38.932 --> 00:23:39.855
That's very cool.
00:23:40.432 --> 00:23:40.965
Very cool.
00:23:41.148 --> 00:23:44.576
When you're, when you're meeting people, how do you describe the work that you do?
00:23:44.913 --> 00:23:46.976
When someone says, "So what do you do?"
00:23:47.428 --> 00:23:54.691
This is an interesting question because, uh, hardly anyone asks me that because usually people know what I do.
00:23:55.326 --> 00:24:09.263
But if I, if I met someone asking me that questions, I would say, "I support people in reconciling with their past, with their family- Mm and eventually with themselves." That's what I do.
00:24:10.211 --> 00:24:10.851
Great.
00:24:11.108 --> 00:24:12.289
Great, great answer.
00:24:12.565 --> 00:24:19.045
And I support people in allowing themselves to make decisions to live a good life.
00:24:19.432 --> 00:24:19.711
Yeah.
00:24:19.992 --> 00:24:20.134
Yeah.
00:24:20.737 --> 00:24:21.432
That's wonderful.
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:25.211
And I, and then, and that's… Just trying to think of the word for that.
00:24:25.661 --> 00:24:29.786
Nope, I hear, I heard something and it's gone, so we'll, we'll cut that bit out.
00:24:30.144 --> 00:24:31.207
Um- Maybe it will come.
00:24:31.692 --> 00:24:33.201
Yeah, maybe it'll come back.
00:24:33.635 --> 00:24:35.577
On that train of thought somewhere, it's gone off.
00:24:35.788 --> 00:24:47.007
But I, I was thinking about, um, I remember Jan Jacob Stam in a workshop saying, um… Oh, I asked,"How do you take care of yourself?
00:24:47.007 --> 00:24:56.584
What, what do you do to take care of your, yeah, yourself and, um, in the work?" And he says, "I don't h- I don't help people."
00:24:57.343 --> 00:24:58.344
Yes, yes.
00:24:58.365 --> 00:25:04.309
And I, and I was like, this is… I was like, "What? What do you mean?" This is way back then.
00:25:04.786 --> 00:25:06.554
And I was thinking, "That's what we do.
00:25:06.570 --> 00:25:15.201
We're facilitators." And, and he goes, "I don't help people, because if I help them, I'm taking away their experience." Yes.
00:25:15.278 --> 00:25:15.451
Ah.
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:20.967
He says, "I can guide someone to something, but it's, uh, totally them.
00:25:20.967 --> 00:25:30.784
I'm not helping them, because helping in, in that context of, um, helping and doing." And it was like, ah, that makes sense.
00:25:30.867 --> 00:25:35.390
Yeah, 'cause it's also a leak of energy, isn't it, when we are, um, in that-
00:25:35.392 --> 00:25:40.997
But, you know, the thing is, uh, we have the orders of helping, and the orders of helping say exactly that.
00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:41.345
Mm-hmm.
00:25:41.345 --> 00:25:48.339
And I always wonder that many people who have trained or trained in constellations know so little about the orders of helping.
00:25:48.651 --> 00:25:51.709
And- It's not as well known as the, as the orders of our love.
00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:52.203
I had been- But,
00:25:52.203 --> 00:25:57.039
but it's the basic of our… How can I facilitate without knowing the orders of helping?
00:25:57.085 --> 00:26:00.865
It's- Mm-hmm … it's, it's, it… For me, it's mandatory in every training.
00:26:01.194 --> 00:26:08.085
And Hellinger himself said, "Don't try to be helpful. Try to be useful." Mm-hmm.
00:26:08.085 --> 00:26:28.030
And that's a big difference Because when we, when… I mean, the thing is, you know, that every one of us in a helping profession, no matter if it's facilitators of constellations, therapists, counselors, social workers, we all do that work or we start doing that work because we want to help.
00:26:28.692 --> 00:26:33.354
Mm. And most of us start doing that work from our own wound from childhood.
00:26:33.354 --> 00:26:33.374
Yeah.
00:26:33.836 --> 00:26:39.215
So we project on other people what, what we bring with us.
00:26:39.647 --> 00:26:44.570
Um, and once we understand this, we can let go of this.
00:26:45.163 --> 00:26:45.932
Absolutely.
00:26:45.961 --> 00:26:46.851
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:46.872 --> 00:26:55.536
And as, as you said, as Jan Jacob said, uh, if I… I have never done any workshop with him, but it's perfect.
00:26:55.556 --> 00:27:00.536
It's, it's absolutely what, what, what I think too and h- Mm … what I teach too.
00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:20.835
Uh, if, if we go, um, if I, if I meet someone, if I encounter someone who suffers and I start thinking,"How can I help that person?" I'm already or projecting something that I think I know what that person needs or I come with my mind.
00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:29.500
So for me it is if I connect with my heart, if I open my heart, I can listen to what comes from that person.
00:27:29.904 --> 00:27:37.626
And as you said, who am I to, to know or who am I to, to know what that person needs in that moment?
00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:38.268
Yeah.
00:27:38.317 --> 00:27:44.538
It might be that someone- You talked about experience, taking away experience.
00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:52.917
It might be that that person needs to go through another month of suffering to understand something.
00:27:52.917 --> 00:27:54.605
All of a sudden, an insight comes up.
00:27:55.163 --> 00:28:01.141
In, in my training groups, most of them are therapists, and this is the first thing that they unlearn.
00:28:01.449 --> 00:28:01.461
Mm-hmm.
00:28:01.461 --> 00:28:11.314
And they all say in their final essays, "One of the most liberating things I learned was that I do not need to help." Yeah.
00:28:11.314 --> 00:28:12.954
That it is enough to be there.
00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:13.782
Yeah.
00:28:13.875 --> 00:28:22.523
Yeah, Maria Dilins c- says, um, in her training, she says, uh, "I'm te- I'm h- I'm going to teach you how to unlearn." Yes.
00:28:22.582 --> 00:28:22.770
Yeah.
00:28:22.770 --> 00:28:22.790
Yes, yes.
00:28:22.790 --> 00:28:26.553
"How to unlearn all the things that- Yeah … the things that you've learned and, and to be."
00:28:26.612 --> 00:28:26.814
Yeah.
00:28:27.241 --> 00:28:30.436
To be present and, uh- Yes … and to see what is there.
00:28:30.538 --> 00:28:30.976
Yeah.
00:28:31.435 --> 00:28:31.678
To be
00:28:31.678 --> 00:28:32.087
with what's in front of you.
00:28:32.087 --> 00:28:37.088
And it's also when we want to help, we are no longer connected with the field.
00:28:37.234 --> 00:28:38.670
The field doesn't want to help.
00:28:38.673 --> 00:28:41.186
The field just brings up what comes.
00:28:41.192 --> 00:28:46.905
So if I want to help, I'm in my head, but I can connect through the f- with the field only through my heart.
00:28:47.204 --> 00:28:54.434
Mm. And, and also hear some people have, have a different idea about what does it mean connected with my heart.
00:28:54.448 --> 00:29:01.987
Some people think, "Oh, yeah, it's empathy, feeling what the other person feels." And I, I always say, "This is an illusion.
00:29:02.278 --> 00:29:05.336
You cannot feel what another person feels.
00:29:05.570 --> 00:29:06.713
It's impossible.
00:29:06.722 --> 00:29:15.446
You feel your own feelings connected with their experience." Mm. Because you might have felt or experienced something similar.
00:29:15.871 --> 00:29:28.559
So empathy is, um… empathy is being with someone without… I don't want to say without feeling, but without being dragged into their feelings.
00:29:28.836 --> 00:29:30.734
Yeah, without absorbing it, do you mean?
00:29:30.734 --> 00:29:30.942
Yes.
00:29:30.958 --> 00:29:32.117
Like, taking it on.
00:29:32.202 --> 00:29:32.538
Yeah.
00:29:32.816 --> 00:29:42.480
Mm. So if I have a client in front of me and I see the client suffering or, or in a very difficult situation, I, I never think,"Oh, my God, that poor person."
00:29:42.828 --> 00:29:43.311
Mm.
00:29:43.814 --> 00:29:47.549
I look at them and I say, "Wow. How strong are they?"
00:29:47.737 --> 00:29:48.396
Yeah.
00:29:48.723 --> 00:29:51.509
"Because-" Yes… Ursula: and let's see what comes up.
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:59.538
Let's see what, what, what in that moment is maybe asked of them or what could be the next steps for them.
00:29:59.935 --> 00:30:00.436
Mm. Yeah.
00:30:00.583 --> 00:30:01.507
That's… Yeah.
00:30:01.958 --> 00:30:02.757
And sometimes it's- Great
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:04.275
aware- it's great awareness.
00:30:04.356 --> 00:30:04.859
Yes.
00:30:04.971 --> 00:30:05.218
Yes.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:05.920
Mm. Yes.
00:30:06.752 --> 00:30:12.917
And, and the interesting thing is also I, I just had… Last weekend I had… Last weekend I think.
00:30:12.917 --> 00:30:13.201
Yeah.
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:21.154
I had a constellation day, and there were two participants who had already done constellations with me.
00:30:22.138 --> 00:30:26.644
And somehow it was always about- the same things.
00:30:27.057 --> 00:30:31.462
And it became so clear that it was the story that was in their mind.
00:30:31.820 --> 00:30:41.713
So I suggested this time to use the life integration process that Wilfried Nelles has developed.
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:42.732
And
00:30:42.732 --> 00:30:58.008
this was mind-blowing, because the life integration process allows us independently from, from the system, allows us to get in touch with ourselves and see ourselves in the different stages of our life.
00:30:58.705 --> 00:31:06.875
Um, and how can I say, uh, uncover the stories that we have created in our mind.
00:31:06.876 --> 00:31:28.111
So it could be that- Mm … I say, "Oh my God, you know, I was such a poor baby, and I was, I was weak from the beginning, and my life started so badly." And then we see that representative, strong, full of power, coming into this life and just saying, "Why don't you let me?"
00:31:28.557 --> 00:31:29.296
Mm.
00:31:29.457 --> 00:31:40.169
So, uh, this is f- for me, it's, it's, it's one of also the, the kinds of constellations that we can do to, especially-
00:31:40.173 --> 00:31:41.618
Wh- who did you say it was?
00:31:41.621 --> 00:31:42.482
Who w- whose?
00:31:42.567 --> 00:31:45.710
It's called the life integration process.
00:31:45.955 --> 00:31:45.976
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:45.976 --> 00:31:49.528
And the, the one who developed it is a German.
00:31:49.538 --> 00:31:52.048
His name is Wilfried Nelles.
00:31:52.179 --> 00:31:53.333
Wilfried Nelles.
00:31:53.367 --> 00:31:55.078
I think I've heard his name before.
00:31:55.526 --> 00:31:55.682
Yes, yes.
00:31:55.727 --> 00:31:57.553
Mm. It's, it's, it's amazing.
00:31:57.553 --> 00:32:03.873
And, and you only have representatives for the, for the stages before you.
00:32:03.887 --> 00:32:11.392
So one representative for yourself in the womb, another representative as a toddler, then the teenager.
00:32:11.784 --> 00:32:19.641
Then depending on your age, if you are still young, if you're a teenager, of course you are you are in the position of the teenager.
00:32:19.663 --> 00:32:23.105
If you are at a young age, then you are in that position.
00:32:23.531 --> 00:32:35.761
Then we have the, the numbers, 5 is… would be m- me, so elder people but before retirement that are still working.
00:32:35.761 --> 00:32:35.771
Yeah.
00:32:36.229 --> 00:32:41.011
And then number 6 is after retirement, so the last stage of our life.
00:32:41.012 --> 00:32:49.750
And number 7 is death, um, never has a representative, but it's there also to be aware, where am I in this moment in my life?
00:32:51.038 --> 00:32:52.769
And it's really… I love it.
00:32:52.933 --> 00:32:53.160
Yeah.
00:32:54.131 --> 00:32:55.173
Fantastic.
00:32:55.244 --> 00:32:56.054
Fantastic.
00:32:56.698 --> 00:33:01.357
Um, if, if someone wants to get one of your books, where would they find it?
00:33:01.971 --> 00:33:03.114
How would they find your book?
00:33:03.194 --> 00:33:04.397
They find it on Amazon.
00:33:04.798 --> 00:33:05.213
Okay.
00:33:05.782 --> 00:33:06.189
Yes.
00:33:06.226 --> 00:33:11.201
It is in, in Eng- So I s- I wrote it first in English and then I translated it in German.
00:33:12.683 --> 00:33:13.111
Yes.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:20.588
So the English is not perfect, but I am not perfect and, uh, it's just how I, how I speak, so yeah.
00:33:20.684 --> 00:33:31.549
But, um, um, yeah, just on Amazon, In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation, or if you put Ursula Maria Bell- In both you can find it.
00:33:31.571 --> 00:33:39.619
It's… You can, uh, find it as a hardcover, hardcover, as a softcover, and- Mm … a e-book.
00:33:39.981 --> 00:33:40.317
Yes.
00:33:40.355 --> 00:33:44.800
It's also in German since last year, but yeah.
00:33:45.407 --> 00:33:46.413
Oh, fantastic.
00:33:46.436 --> 00:33:48.721
And you're on Instagram and Facebook.
00:33:48.721 --> 00:33:49.118
I'm on- Is it?
00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:58.855
I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, but I think I will stop my Facebook because I will take a sabbatical in 2027.
00:33:59.683 --> 00:34:14.170
Mm. Um, I feel that something new wants to be born, which, uh, is more than constellations, so more combining- Mm … logotherapy with the orders of love- Yeah … with constellations.
00:34:14.179 --> 00:34:22.173
But also, at the moment I'm including also the German philosophers because it's, it's all one, it all makes sense.
00:34:22.688 --> 00:34:23.315
Yeah.
00:34:23.315 --> 00:34:24.074
So, yeah.
00:34:24.086 --> 00:34:45.349
So from facilitating and teaching, I want maybe in 2028 come up with something that is more about sharing and how can we live our best lives and contribute the best to this crazy world that is, we have in that moment.
00:34:45.478 --> 00:34:46.889
Um, yeah.
00:34:47.275 --> 00:34:48.800
But we will see what will come up.
00:34:49.041 --> 00:34:49.282
Yeah.
00:34:49.909 --> 00:34:50.489
Yeah.
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.594
Well, I mean, a year sabbatical, a lot can happen in a year, right?
00:34:55.342 --> 00:34:56.150
Absolutely.
00:34:56.150 --> 00:34:56.159
Mm-hmm.
00:34:56.206 --> 00:35:02.474
And I will… I already started to write my second book, which is that combination, so I will take time for that.
00:35:03.391 --> 00:35:17.039
And I'm, I'm… I realize also, and I think this is also something important, that we might not, often not realize when we love what we're doing, how exhausted we can be.
00:35:17.376 --> 00:35:23.119
Mm. I mean, I'm now… It's 16 years that I fully work with constellations.
00:35:23.202 --> 00:35:34.527
I create a genogram of every client I work with, so I have nearly 1,000 genograms here in my book, and, uh, in my, in my desk.
00:35:34.594 --> 00:35:47.630
Done so much deep connection work, uh, creating new seminars, new workshops, the trainings, and I realized that I was just running, running, running, running, creating the next step.
00:35:48.072 --> 00:35:54.320
So it felt like I can allow myself a break now and-
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:03.231
Mm… Ursula: get back to myself, and again, as see what comes up, uh, from within.
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:03.753
Yes.
00:36:04.121 --> 00:36:05.202
Oh, that's wonderful.
00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.340
Yeah, and good, yeah, good reminder for people as well.
00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:10.010
Yeah.
00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:10.097
Yes.
00:36:10.108 --> 00:36:13.204
'Cause, yeah, sometimes we get so absorbed in it.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.108
And I, I was like you, you know.
00:36:15.110 --> 00:36:26.657
The first time I experienced constellations it was like, "Oh, this is… I'm meant to do this." And it's been a real deep passion and, uh, yeah, and flow on ever since then too, so yeah, I get that.
00:36:26.965 --> 00:36:30.532
And, uh, I look forward to seeing what is birthed.
00:36:30.793 --> 00:36:31.400
Thank you.
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:31.422
Yeah.
00:36:31.429 --> 00:36:32.431
Thank you very much.
00:36:32.606 --> 00:36:32.945
Yes.
00:36:32.945 --> 00:36:32.954
Yeah.
00:36:32.985 --> 00:36:42.889
I will continue my newsletter, so if anyone wants to, to, uh, be part of, on my newsletter list, I send them regularly, uh, each month.
00:36:42.958 --> 00:36:46.461
And I always write an article about a topic.
00:36:46.541 --> 00:36:53.155
So, uh, especially next year there will be no more announcements because I don't have any workshops.
00:36:53.164 --> 00:36:53.664
Yeah.
00:36:53.664 --> 00:37:00.355
So it will really be mostly about sharing and, uh, and, and about articles about certain topics.
00:37:00.364 --> 00:37:00.903
Right.
00:37:00.903 --> 00:37:06.090
Maybe I will ask, uh, what people want to know about, so we will see.
00:37:06.139 --> 00:37:06.809
Yeah, so this
00:37:06.809 --> 00:37:09.585
is- So what's the name of your website for people to, um, access?
00:37:09.617 --> 00:37:09.842
It's
00:37:09.844 --> 00:37:12.123
my name, ursulamariabell.com.
00:37:12.490 --> 00:37:12.869
Okay.
00:37:13.105 --> 00:37:13.557
Brilliant.
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:13.824
Yes.
00:37:14.021 --> 00:37:14.456
And we'll put
00:37:14.458 --> 00:37:16.585
that link- Without dots- Yeah … without dashes.
00:37:16.585 --> 00:37:16.594
Yeah.
00:37:16.614 --> 00:37:18.918
Just ursulamariabell.com, yes.
00:37:18.963 --> 00:37:19.141
Yeah.
00:37:19.237 --> 00:37:21.503
We'll put that link into the thread as well.
00:37:21.514 --> 00:37:25.409
So thank you so much for sharing your time.
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.018
And, um, yeah, it's been really lovely to connect with you here on this platform.
00:37:30.438 --> 00:37:32.617
Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me.
00:37:32.655 --> 00:37:37.456
I'm really honored and grateful for you allowing me to be here.
00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:37.708
Oh.
00:37:37.771 --> 00:37:37.911
And, yeah.
00:37:37.927 --> 00:37:38.757
You're welcome.
00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:39.630
It's, it's lovely.
00:37:39.675 --> 00:37:40.012
Yeah.
00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:40.646
Thank you.
00:37:41.483 --> 00:37:41.971
Thank you.
00:37:42.561 --> 00:37:43.485
Thank you for listening.
00:37:44.025 --> 00:37:48.128
Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:54.802
You'll find me at tracy.cartwright, that's Tracy with no E, .cartwright.
00:37:55.128 --> 00:38:04.219
And, or head over to my website, tracycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
00:38:04.862 --> 00:38:09.003
So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.
00:00:00.252 --> 00:00:02.964
Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
00:00:03.357 --> 00:00:23.400
I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
00:00:23.864 --> 00:00:25.329
We'd love for you to join us.
00:00:25.838 --> 00:00:29.263
I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
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Kia ora, everyone.
00:00:34.634 --> 00:00:37.054
Welcome to Constellations and All That.
00:00:37.527 --> 00:00:41.747
Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Ursula Maria Bell.
00:00:41.823 --> 00:00:42.829
Welcome, Ursula.
00:00:43.281 --> 00:00:45.834
Thank you very much, and thank you for having me.
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Aw, you're welcome.
00:00:47.713 --> 00:00:48.613
This is exciting.
00:00:48.993 --> 00:00:57.238
Yeah, a, an admirer of, of from a distance for a very long time, so, um, I'm excited to have you on board on, on this conversation.
00:00:57.485 --> 00:01:02.497
Would you like to introduce a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers, please?
00:01:02.646 --> 00:01:03.067
Sure.
00:01:03.158 --> 00:01:05.254
Uh, so my name is Ursula Maria Bell.
00:01:05.281 --> 00:01:11.180
Actually, I have three first names, Ursula Maria Elizabeth, but it was a bit, it's a bit too long.
00:01:11.194 --> 00:01:25.620
And Maria is the name of my, of the first wife of my grandfather, and also of the first wife of my great-grandfather who died.
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So, uh, when I realized that, I kind of as honoring them- Mm … I included the second name also in my official name.
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Um, yeah, what, what can I say?
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I'm from Germany, born in Germany, raised in Germany.
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Uh, left Germany in 2004 with my husband.
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We have lived in different countries since then.
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Every country gave me something amazing.
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And- Mm … uh, we have a… I'm 66 years old.
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We have a daughter of 25.
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I'm married since 27 years, so, um, yeah, I would say a very lively life with all kinds of ups and downs.
00:02:07.835 --> 00:02:17.532
I came to constellations through- My own experience, uh, painful experience with my mother and my sister.
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Mm. And a friend of mine, she knew about constellations and she said,"Well, you know, you're angry and you're hurt, and it might be good to look at this because if not, your daughter might carry it along and, and there is a workshop you can join." And I got in touch with that person.
00:02:35.346 --> 00:02:41.792
And, uh, before that I was trained in Viktor Frankl's logotherapy and existential ana- analysis.
00:02:41.817 --> 00:02:42.980
I al- always struggle.
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Analysis.
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Analysis, yes.
00:02:45.683 --> 00:02:45.780
Yeah.
00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:59.259
And it was something that is, or it's still something that is very close to my heart, and still I was looking for something that would combine also the, the heart and the soul and the body, and so the whole being.
00:02:59.262 --> 00:02:59.271
Mm.
00:02:59.390 --> 00:03:05.490
And when I did my first constellation in that workshop, I said, "This is it. This is what I had been looking for."
00:03:05.808 --> 00:03:05.944
Mm.
00:03:05.985 --> 00:03:09.235
And I asked the facilitator,"Where can I learn this?
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I want to learn this." And he said,"I have just started a training and you can still join." Well, this was- Wow … in 2010 or '11, I think.
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And since then I'm-
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Yeah
00:03:19.544 --> 00:03:21.859
I'm on the constellation path.
00:03:21.897 --> 00:03:22.049
Yeah.
00:03:22.378 --> 00:03:22.677
Wow.
00:03:22.683 --> 00:03:25.108
Who was the trainer that you worked with?
00:03:25.406 --> 00:03:27.120
Uh, Conrad Pinecker.
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Nobody knows him, or few people know him.
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So I never trained with one of the big names.
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I'm always … I just go with where universe takes me- Yeah … and what my heart feels.
00:03:41.263 --> 00:03:52.864
And I can say he was the perfect trainer and we It was not only about constellations, but- He integrated other approaches.
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Mm. So for me, this opened up I think already the path which I'm now going, and, uh, it's also the title of my book.
00:04:04.390 --> 00:04:07.368
So the subtitle, More Than Constellations.
00:04:07.673 --> 00:04:16.653
Mm. And I more and more realize that, yes, constellations are a wonderful technique, but it's, it's about the inner posture that we work with.
00:04:17.081 --> 00:04:17.331
Yeah.
00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:18.257
That's right.
00:04:18.322 --> 00:04:18.802
Yeah.
00:04:19.713 --> 00:04:30.699
And I love that, um, you know, I mean, like you said, you didn't train with one of the, the big names, but when you go through the lineage, there'll be… I mean, it all comes from the, the source, doesn't it?
00:04:30.699 --> 00:04:31.632
Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
00:04:32.584 --> 00:04:34.954
You know, the- Yes, yes … the thread that flows down, exactly.
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And- Absolutely.
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But you know, I think that we forget that there are so many amazing trainers out there-
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Yeah… Ursula: that we don't hear about, feel sad about, that everything foc- or everybody focuses on this and this and this, um, or that person and that person and that person, and we forget about the thousands others that- Yeah
00:05:02.661 --> 00:05:06.206
might not be known, but they are just amazing.
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Yeah.
00:05:07.204 --> 00:05:07.512
Yeah.
00:05:07.565 --> 00:05:08.206
I agree.
00:05:08.274 --> 00:05:08.762
I agree.
00:05:09.098 --> 00:05:14.971
That's why I'm loving doing this podcast, you know, helping to spotlight all sorts of people as well.
00:05:15.045 --> 00:05:15.180
Yeah.
00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:15.201
You know?
00:05:15.201 --> 00:05:15.319
That's
00:05:15.334 --> 00:05:15.944
beautiful.
00:05:16.047 --> 00:05:16.360
That's beautiful.
00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:17.029
Um, yeah.
00:05:17.125 --> 00:05:23.482
Let's talk about your book,'cause you've got your cover there in the background, and- Yeah um, in the spirit of
00:05:23.497 --> 00:05:24.086
love-
00:05:24.288 --> 00:05:24.672
So this is- Yeah?
00:05:25.365 --> 00:05:26.415
Wait a moment.
00:05:26.454 --> 00:05:27.343
I don't know if you see
00:05:27.696 --> 00:05:27.706
it.
00:05:27.706 --> 00:05:30.355
Yeah, that's In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation.
00:05:30.389 --> 00:05:36.017
And Reconciliation, and the subtitle is, no, you, you can't see it with the background, More Than Constellations.
00:05:36.211 --> 00:05:43.336
It was published in December 2024, and I had planned to write it years before.
00:05:43.697 --> 00:05:47.841
And I always started a little bit, a little bit, but it never happened.
00:05:48.274 --> 00:06:28.149
And then eventually in, um, 2023, uh, in, in autumn, I got a sciatica so painful that I couldn't move anymore, and it took me months- And went to doctors and they said, "Operation," and all these things, and I said, "No, no way." And in the end I asked my training group, "Would you be willing to have a look at this with me?" So we did a constellation about the situation and we had, uh, we had, uh, representatives for my sciatica nerve, for the pain, for myself, for the two vertebrae where the herniated disc was.
00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.610
And it was a blind constellation, so nobody knew about who they represented.
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Yeah.
00:06:33.716 --> 00:06:37.112
And in the end it came out, share your legacy.
00:06:37.314 --> 00:06:48.098
And some, another, I don't know which representative it was, and said, "A book, a book. I s- I see a book. You have to write a book." And nobody knew that I had this in mind, so it was so funny.
00:06:48.105 --> 00:06:51.372
And I said, "Yeah, actually, there is a book waiting." Yeah.
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And I promised myself and I promised my body I would write that book.
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What can I say?
00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.115
Two days after, my pain was gone.
00:06:59.312 --> 00:07:00.516
It never came back.
00:07:01.052 --> 00:07:01.552
Wow.
00:07:02.107 --> 00:07:03.288
And, uh, and-
00:07:03.288 --> 00:07:05.995
Bodies are incredible speakers, aren't they?
00:07:06.038 --> 00:07:09.033
They're incredible when we, when we're listening to them.
00:07:09.601 --> 00:07:14.913
It's, it's, you know, if, if I didn't experience it myself Mm-hmm … I would say you're crazy.
00:07:15.507 --> 00:07:17.567
And, and then I, I started.
00:07:17.567 --> 00:07:27.343
So this was in March 2024, and then I, I really started in April and then the whole summer, and I published it in December 2024.
00:07:27.384 --> 00:07:27.723
Yes.
00:07:28.257 --> 00:07:40.071
And it's basically, it shares my own journey from, you know, a simple participant to the facilitator and eventually the trainer.
00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:44.043
I included this to encourage others-
00:07:44.430 --> 00:07:50.526
Mm… Ursula: to understand that first of all So I started when I was 50.
00:07:50.786 --> 00:07:58.072
To encourage people to follow their dreams and follow their, their, their, where universe wants them to be.
00:07:58.137 --> 00:07:58.750
Yeah.
00:07:59.250 --> 00:08:09.709
And on the other hand, I included a lot of, of course, about constellations, about the orders of love and helping, but also my way of seeing them.
00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:18.069
I wrote a lot about reconciliation, because for me this is where they are guiding us to about love.
00:08:18.187 --> 00:08:19.404
What does love mean?
00:08:20.002 --> 00:08:21.187
What does love mean for me?
00:08:21.192 --> 00:08:22.168
How do I see it?
00:08:23.002 --> 00:08:24.550
Uh, expectation.
00:08:24.701 --> 00:08:26.757
So, um, pain.
00:08:27.050 --> 00:08:27.228
Uh-huh.
00:08:27.228 --> 00:08:29.247
So there are, uh, different- Is
00:08:29.249 --> 00:08:36.490
there a snippet of that that you could share with us that maybe- I wasn't prepared for that … open a book and see what, what pops out?
00:08:36.798 --> 00:08:37.264
Okay.
00:08:37.326 --> 00:08:46.764
So let's maybe… Because what we usually do is we reject our past, we reject our parents, we reject others.
00:08:46.855 --> 00:08:57.966
There are so many people who talk about cutting ties and, you know, uh, for me, it is very important to use the use of words.
00:08:58.182 --> 00:09:07.347
If it, for example, if you talk about to cut, this is very aggressive, and aggressive words cannot heal.
00:09:07.671 --> 00:09:14.115
So for me, it is from, uh, from rejection to acknowledgement.
00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:14.130
Yeah.
00:09:14.235 --> 00:09:18.913
And the, the biggest rejection, I think, is about rejecting ourselves.
00:09:19.267 --> 00:09:28.980
So people come and they say, "Oh, I, I've, I've worked so hard on myself." I want to read just that part, if that's okay for
00:09:28.980 --> 00:09:29.140
you.
00:09:29.652 --> 00:09:29.663
Yeah.
00:09:29.663 --> 00:09:29.673
Yeah.
00:09:29.673 --> 00:09:30.197
Sounds good.
00:09:30.400 --> 00:09:40.480
So the decision to shift from rejection and judgment to acceptance and acknowledgement is not passive resignation.
00:09:40.807 --> 00:09:42.349
It does not mean giving up.
00:09:42.835 --> 00:09:53.941
It is the most active and conscious decision we can make The first step to love and reconciliation, especially in regards to ourselves.
00:09:54.557 --> 00:09:54.857
Mm-hmm.
00:09:54.940 --> 00:10:11.188
Many clients tell me, "I have worked so hard on myself for so long, and I'm still not there." My answer usually is, "Stop working so hard on yourself." Working hard on ourselves means that we are not right, we are not good enough, not how we should be.
00:10:11.721 --> 00:10:13.125
Let me ask you a question.
00:10:13.592 --> 00:10:19.446
What happens to a child who is constantly receiving the message, "You are not right.
00:10:20.119 --> 00:10:21.270
You are not enough.
00:10:22.004 --> 00:10:23.798
You are not how you should be"?
00:10:24.309 --> 00:10:25.201
Sounds familiar?
00:10:25.552 --> 00:10:28.509
Does it bring back memories from childhood or school days?
00:10:29.049 --> 00:10:34.875
Well, that's how many of us treat ourselves day by day.
00:10:35.182 --> 00:10:53.431
Instead of finding peace with who we are and embracing the wonderful being of our true nature, instead of seeing what is good and beautiful in us, we judge and punish ourselves for each and everything that is not what we or others consider perfect.
00:10:53.856 --> 00:10:55.059
Wow, that's lovely.
00:10:55.402 --> 00:10:55.837
Yeah.
00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:55.998
So
00:10:56.143 --> 00:10:56.817
this is- And it's so-
00:10:56.956 --> 00:11:01.139
Yeah, this is the, the, the basic tenor of the book.
00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:10.986
And many people who have read it say they love it because they just open it and… So it's not a book that you need to read from the beginning to the end.
00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:11.316
Mm.
00:11:11.376 --> 00:11:18.226
Or you go through the, the table of contents, and you pick a topic, or you just open it and read it.
00:11:18.669 --> 00:11:21.265
Mm. And, uh, and this is what I wanted.
00:11:21.332 --> 00:11:26.537
Simple language, nothing that you need to write… to read three times to understand it.
00:11:27.133 --> 00:11:27.779
Yeah.
00:11:27.883 --> 00:11:30.407
But just as I speak to people, yeah.
00:11:30.985 --> 00:11:32.613
That's fas- fantastic.
00:11:32.857 --> 00:11:43.076
It, um… And an amazing resource for people as well to be able to, you know- Even maybe even ask a question or looking for support or-
00:11:43.880 --> 00:11:44.515
Yes, yes yeah.
00:11:44.524 --> 00:11:47.346
Some people have it on their, you know, bed, bed table.
00:11:48.046 --> 00:11:50.370
So they trust, yes.
00:11:51.028 --> 00:11:59.596
And- Well, I was sharing with, um, someone earlier today actually that, you know, 'cause when someone writes a book, all of their consciousness is in the field already, right?
00:11:59.634 --> 00:12:01.422
'Cause you've, you've had those thoughts.
00:12:01.422 --> 00:12:04.043
You've put it there, and so it's already in the, out there.
00:12:04.563 --> 00:12:07.083
So I often sleep with lots of books.
00:12:07.495 --> 00:12:09.129
Some I've read and some I haven't.
00:12:09.695 --> 00:12:13.715
And my, sleep be- with them beside me, not in the bed with me.
00:12:14.330 --> 00:12:18.356
And my intention is to, to receive the knowledge that I need.
00:12:19.202 --> 00:12:19.419
Yes.
00:12:19.700 --> 00:12:20.932
Uh, you know?
00:12:21.144 --> 00:12:25.845
Like, particularly if I'm, if I'm doing a big workshop or if I've got other things.
00:12:25.845 --> 00:12:27.011
And I, and I swap them out.
00:12:27.046 --> 00:12:28.392
I don't have the same things.
00:12:28.392 --> 00:12:37.124
I tune into the, into my little library and what books do I need for those who are coming toward, you know, near me right now.
00:12:37.124 --> 00:12:37.134
Yeah.
00:12:37.534 --> 00:12:43.250
And it might only be that I've got one or two on the books- on the nightstand, or sometimes I've got, like, a big stack.
00:12:43.582 --> 00:12:44.475
Yeah, so.
00:12:44.476 --> 00:12:44.673
I
00:12:45.190 --> 00:12:48.472
had an, an interesting experience with books years ago.
00:12:48.554 --> 00:12:52.974
I think it was bef- no, after I did the training with Constellations.
00:12:53.615 --> 00:12:56.860
Um, I sold nearly all my books.
00:12:57.244 --> 00:13:10.177
I kept, I think, five because I said, "I have put so many things in my head. Now I want to create a situation where I want to see what is inside of me." Mm-hmm.
00:13:10.177 --> 00:13:13.269
What happens if I stop putting information?
00:13:13.662 --> 00:13:15.740
So I stopped workshops.
00:13:15.772 --> 00:13:17.067
I stopped reading.
00:13:17.437 --> 00:13:20.418
I just allowed things to come.
00:13:20.504 --> 00:13:24.190
Mm. And it was one of the most beautiful times in my life.
00:13:25.245 --> 00:13:30.759
To realize the, the, the richness that we have inside.
00:13:30.982 --> 00:13:34.303
I'm not only speaking about myself, because I know we all have it.
00:13:34.700 --> 00:13:54.759
But we are so focused on and trained on you need to learn, you need to put it in, you, you know, you need to be better, better, better, that we very often miss that time and space where we realize what, what is the wisdom that is inside of us.
00:13:54.841 --> 00:13:55.514
Mm. Yeah.
00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:55.702
Yeah.
00:13:55.807 --> 00:13:58.808
And, and have that time to pause and- Yes … and to listen.
00:13:58.886 --> 00:13:59.215
Yes.
00:13:59.216 --> 00:13:59.711
Yeah.
00:14:00.251 --> 00:14:00.869
Beautiful.
00:14:01.332 --> 00:14:01.792
Beautiful.
00:14:02.390 --> 00:14:07.403
And you shared just, um, before that you were doing the, the Viktor Frankl-
00:14:07.647 --> 00:14:08.589
Yes, yes … Frankl thing.
00:14:08.589 --> 00:14:35.754
So Viktor Frankl, the, um, logotherapy was my first training, and for me it … The interesting thing is that when I started then with constellations I thought I had put aside logotherapy, but then I realized more and more, especially then when I started, uh, to offer my, my training, how much of Frankl I included in my teaching.
00:14:36.413 --> 00:14:51.163
Um, you know, the, the, the, the inner poster, uh, that I, that I try to convey to my participants is, is based on Viktor Frankl's respect for the human being.
00:14:51.528 --> 00:14:51.777
Mm.
00:14:51.831 --> 00:14:57.119
And taking on responsibility for the choices for their lives.
00:14:57.753 --> 00:15:09.448
Um, it's like, you know, you can go on for your whole life blaming your parents for what has been, or you can let it, acknowledge it and say, "Okay, now I'm grown up.
00:15:09.472 --> 00:15:12.293
Now I can take responsibility for my, for my life.
00:15:12.293 --> 00:15:13.434
What do I do with it?
00:15:13.995 --> 00:15:18.674
I am the one who can decide who I'm going to be in the next moment of my life." Yeah.
00:15:18.719 --> 00:15:20.105
So this is Viktor Frankl.
00:15:20.327 --> 00:15:21.033
But on the other-
00:15:21.033 --> 00:15:25.101
I, I hadn't heard of logotherapy before, so it's, it's fascinating.
00:15:25.111 --> 00:15:25.317
Oh, yeah.
00:15:25.434 --> 00:15:25.791
Yeah.
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:26.253
Yeah.
00:15:26.253 --> 00:15:35.698
So Viktor Frankl is, uh, is the third y- logotherapy is the third Viennese school of psychotherapy after Freud and Adler.
00:15:35.892 --> 00:15:35.919
Mm-hmm.
00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:40.645
Freud is the one who said the human being is a being in search of lust.
00:15:40.754 --> 00:15:49.774
Adler said it's a being in search of power, and Viktor Frankl said, no, the human being is a being in search of meaning, and this is amazing.
00:15:49.849 --> 00:15:55.952
So when we, when we, when we live … Because for me it is, I can only teach what I live.
00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:58.697
I cannot teach something and live something different.
00:15:58.698 --> 00:15:58.714
Yeah.
00:15:59.182 --> 00:16:07.457
So when, when we live on this basis, it's all about meaning, finding what… how, how does my life get meaning?
00:16:07.831 --> 00:16:14.015
How do my, my … What meaning do my, my, my daily actions and reactions have?
00:16:14.030 --> 00:16:15.634
What do they bring in this world?
00:16:16.111 --> 00:16:23.572
But the more I worked with constellations, then I realized, but also here something is missing.
00:16:24.067 --> 00:16:40.775
Because if I'm still entangled with an ancestor, if I'm still loyal to someone in my family, the meaning I might think- I bring in my li- in my life, in my present life might still not be mine.
00:16:41.466 --> 00:16:42.533
Mm. That's right.
00:16:42.533 --> 00:16:42.845
Right?
00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:43.711
Yeah.
00:16:43.711 --> 00:16:43.721
Yes.
00:16:44.097 --> 00:16:53.653
And on the other hand, if I work with constellations and I let go of the loyalties and entanglements, what is the next step?
00:16:53.988 --> 00:17:00.133
Mm. The next step then for me is, okay, now I take responsibility and I bring something good in my life.
00:17:00.138 --> 00:17:06.999
So it is neither the one nor the other, but it is bringing them all together.
00:17:07.419 --> 00:17:07.988
Yeah.
00:17:08.141 --> 00:17:08.693
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:09.338 --> 00:17:19.568
And that's what I love about constellations is the, mm, the fluidity of being able to infuse other modalities with it, right?
00:17:19.601 --> 00:17:29.713
And there are so many, um, without actually losing the constellation, the, or the essence of it, but being able to bring in other things to support it.
00:17:30.666 --> 00:17:31.188
Yes.
00:17:31.188 --> 00:17:35.691
Mm. And the essence of constellations for me are the orders of love and the orders of helping.
00:17:36.101 --> 00:17:45.922
And sometimes, you know, if we really integrate them in our life, we don't need the, the, the constellation, the tool anymore.
00:17:46.124 --> 00:17:59.080
Mm. Because if I integrate the orders of love in my life, I will kind of do constellations every time I interact with someone, acknowledging, honoring.
00:17:59.267 --> 00:18:04.465
So, uh, these for me are the, the… It, it's the basis.
00:18:04.502 --> 00:18:13.174
And some people say, I, I… Lately I read the orders of love are patriarchal, and I think you didn't get it.
00:18:13.635 --> 00:18:18.682
Because this is not about men and women, about who is right, who is wrong.
00:18:19.601 --> 00:18:20.893
It is much more.
00:18:20.894 --> 00:18:22.364
It goes much deeper.
00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:26.009
It is about finding our place.
00:18:26.078 --> 00:18:30.709
Uh, and it has nothing to do with being more important or not.
00:18:31.340 --> 00:18:40.167
Mm. And so for me, there, there… the danger is a lot of misunderstandings in this field.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.170
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:41.901 --> 00:18:42.917
Yeah, that is, is-
00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:44.244
Or what I have to do.
00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:44.796
Yeah.
00:18:45.321 --> 00:18:51.056
Yeah, it's important that it's communicated in, in, in its true essence for the understanding, right?
00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:52.352
Yes.
00:18:52.352 --> 00:18:54.827
Mm. And here we are with love and reconciliation.
00:18:54.844 --> 00:18:56.558
Here we are with the inner posture.
00:18:57.179 --> 00:19:01.587
I have been to, as a representative, to workshops where I was forced to bow.
00:19:01.708 --> 00:19:15.903
And I never force anyone to bow, because bowing for me is one of the most sacred movements that we can do, but it, it, it needs time and place to come.
00:19:16.251 --> 00:19:17.798
And if it comes, it comes.
00:19:17.810 --> 00:19:19.976
If it doesn't come, it doesn't come at that moment.
00:19:19.977 --> 00:19:19.992
Yeah.
00:19:20.345 --> 00:19:22.804
So who am I as a facilitator to force that?
00:19:23.769 --> 00:19:28.676
And I remember one constellation where I, I, I, I was the issue holder.
00:19:28.728 --> 00:19:33.304
And then there was this final where I really wanted to bow to that ancestor.
00:19:33.327 --> 00:19:39.183
I had this inner, yes, I want to bow, but I wanted to take my time to really feel it.
00:19:39.624 --> 00:19:41.988
And the facilitator came from behind, pushed me, "Bow."
00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:42.837
Oh, wow.
00:19:42.837 --> 00:19:46.230
And I said, "What is that?" And it was someone with a big name.
00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:47.790
I don't want… You know?
00:19:47.901 --> 00:19:50.910
So it, it is just, as you said, what is the essence?
00:19:51.487 --> 00:19:51.732
Yeah.
00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:58.439
What is the essence and the true spirit, and how do we bring our work into that world?
00:19:59.007 --> 00:20:02.332
And this is not to judge, it's just to share my own experience.
00:20:02.635 --> 00:20:04.422
Everybody can do it as they want.
00:20:04.528 --> 00:20:06.575
People choose- Yeah, mm-hmm … with whom they work.
00:20:06.608 --> 00:20:08.123
That's perfectly okay.
00:20:08.123 --> 00:20:09.271
We are millions of people.
00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:16.968
I think in the situations too, there are situations that show up for us to go, "Okay, well, uh, that's not how I'm gonna facilitate."
00:20:17.049 --> 00:20:17.438
Yes.
00:20:17.521 --> 00:20:17.737
You know?
00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:17.952
Yes.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:23.721
It's, it's, uh… I had to exper- experience that to go- Yes"Oh no, there's no way I want to do
00:20:23.753 --> 00:20:24.327
that." We have got to experience it.
00:20:24.818 --> 00:20:24.994
Yes, it does.
00:20:24.994 --> 00:20:25.005
Yes.
00:20:25.005 --> 00:20:25.259
Yeah.
00:20:25.314 --> 00:20:25.455
Yes.
00:20:25.641 --> 00:20:26.105
Yeah.
00:20:26.452 --> 00:20:26.894
Yeah.
00:20:27.211 --> 00:20:28.303
Ah, brilliant.
00:20:28.324 --> 00:20:33.631
How has, how has constellation impacted on your family for, for your system?
00:20:33.963 --> 00:20:36.239
Is there a… C- can you see?
00:20:36.683 --> 00:20:48.967
So for my, my system of origin, it… As I said, I had this, this, uh… I started with constellations because of that painful experience with my mother and my sister.
00:20:49.263 --> 00:21:02.228
Um, my mother, my mother died, so I couldn't physically, I would say, make peace with her because she had dementia in her last years.
00:21:03.018 --> 00:21:15.558
And still I had, as it's also in my book, I had this- beautiful experience with her when, uh, I saw her for the last time where she didn't recognize me anymore.
00:21:16.178 --> 00:21:21.655
And, um, she said, "I don't know who you are." And then I just sat next to her.
00:21:21.656 --> 00:21:29.103
I held her in my arms and I allowed … First, I, my life passed in front of my eyes.
00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:34.141
You know, how I suffered with her many times, what she did, what I would have needed.
00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:40.529
And then her life, I saw her life in my mind passing.
00:21:41.347 --> 00:21:49.224
Mm. And how difficult her life was and the losses she had and the pain she endured.
00:21:49.694 --> 00:21:58.397
And then I just felt gratitude for, that she, after all that, she gave life to me and she allowed me- Yeah … to be in this world.
00:21:58.955 --> 00:22:06.355
And in that moment she opened her eyes, she looked at me and she said, "Ursula." Mm. I still get goosebumps when I think of it.
00:22:06.865 --> 00:22:17.378
And I said, "Yeah, do you, do you know me now?" And she said, "No, I don't know you, but I know your eyes." And this for me was … And the eyes are the language of the soul.
00:22:17.388 --> 00:22:19.287
That is … This is- Mm … how our souls connect.
00:22:19.752 --> 00:22:24.071
So for me, this was everything is good, everything is healed, everything is fine.
00:22:24.484 --> 00:22:30.962
My father was already dead when I started with constellations, but, so I, I just could reconcile with them in my heart.
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:40.340
With my sister, there is still, uh, unfortunately a situation where she doesn't want to- Really get in touch.
00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:44.948
She is in her old story, and I offered several times to connect.
00:22:45.224 --> 00:22:47.976
Eventually, I just said,"She's in my heart.
00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:48.739
She's my sister.
00:22:48.739 --> 00:22:49.297
I love her.
00:22:49.307 --> 00:22:54.492
If, at any time she wants to reconnect, I'm here." Um, but I'm
00:22:54.492 --> 00:22:54.521
at peace.
00:22:54.521 --> 00:22:57.406
And, and that's the beauty of constellations when we get that, right?
00:22:57.935 --> 00:22:58.127
Yes.
00:22:58.127 --> 00:22:58.137
Yes.
00:22:58.169 --> 00:23:02.636
And we're not trying to force anything, and we're just- Yes … we're, uh, taking them as they are.
00:23:02.636 --> 00:23:02.653
Yes.
00:23:03.255 --> 00:23:06.762
And that is how it is because- Yeah … you can't change them.
00:23:06.898 --> 00:23:10.280
It's, uh- Yeah … we can only change that part of us as to how I- We can
00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:13.075
only- Yeah change, transform something within us.
00:23:13.585 --> 00:23:13.809
Mm-hmm.
00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:18.753
And for my present family, I can say that constellations have saved my mar- my marriage.
00:23:18.782 --> 00:23:19.214
Yes.
00:23:19.596 --> 00:23:20.295
Mm.
00:23:20.596 --> 00:23:20.806
Yes.
00:23:20.806 --> 00:23:24.962
Mm. They have changed the way I live my relationship.
00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:36.131
They have… Yeah, it was very hard at the beginning, but after 27 years, I can say I'm so glad that I have the best man I, I can have next to
00:23:36.131 --> 00:23:36.445
me.
00:23:36.546 --> 00:23:37.398
Fantastic.
00:23:37.444 --> 00:23:38.665
That's wonderful to hear.
00:23:38.932 --> 00:23:39.855
That's very cool.
00:23:40.432 --> 00:23:40.965
Very cool.
00:23:41.148 --> 00:23:44.576
When you're, when you're meeting people, how do you describe the work that you do?
00:23:44.913 --> 00:23:46.976
When someone says, "So what do you do?"
00:23:47.428 --> 00:23:54.691
This is an interesting question because, uh, hardly anyone asks me that because usually people know what I do.
00:23:55.326 --> 00:24:09.263
But if I, if I met someone asking me that questions, I would say, "I support people in reconciling with their past, with their family- Mm and eventually with themselves." That's what I do.
00:24:10.211 --> 00:24:10.851
Great.
00:24:11.108 --> 00:24:12.289
Great, great answer.
00:24:12.565 --> 00:24:19.045
And I support people in allowing themselves to make decisions to live a good life.
00:24:19.432 --> 00:24:19.711
Yeah.
00:24:19.992 --> 00:24:20.134
Yeah.
00:24:20.737 --> 00:24:21.432
That's wonderful.
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:25.211
And I, and then, and that's… Just trying to think of the word for that.
00:24:25.661 --> 00:24:29.786
Nope, I hear, I heard something and it's gone, so we'll, we'll cut that bit out.
00:24:30.144 --> 00:24:31.207
Um- Maybe it will come.
00:24:31.692 --> 00:24:33.201
Yeah, maybe it'll come back.
00:24:33.635 --> 00:24:35.577
On that train of thought somewhere, it's gone off.
00:24:35.788 --> 00:24:47.007
But I, I was thinking about, um, I remember Jan Jacob Stam in a workshop saying, um… Oh, I asked,"How do you take care of yourself?
00:24:47.007 --> 00:24:56.584
What, what do you do to take care of your, yeah, yourself and, um, in the work?" And he says, "I don't h- I don't help people."
00:24:57.343 --> 00:24:58.344
Yes, yes.
00:24:58.365 --> 00:25:04.309
And I, and I was like, this is… I was like, "What? What do you mean?" This is way back then.
00:25:04.786 --> 00:25:06.554
And I was thinking, "That's what we do.
00:25:06.570 --> 00:25:15.201
We're facilitators." And, and he goes, "I don't help people, because if I help them, I'm taking away their experience." Yes.
00:25:15.278 --> 00:25:15.451
Ah.
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:20.967
He says, "I can guide someone to something, but it's, uh, totally them.
00:25:20.967 --> 00:25:30.784
I'm not helping them, because helping in, in that context of, um, helping and doing." And it was like, ah, that makes sense.
00:25:30.867 --> 00:25:35.390
Yeah, 'cause it's also a leak of energy, isn't it, when we are, um, in that-
00:25:35.392 --> 00:25:40.997
But, you know, the thing is, uh, we have the orders of helping, and the orders of helping say exactly that.
00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:41.345
Mm-hmm.
00:25:41.345 --> 00:25:48.339
And I always wonder that many people who have trained or trained in constellations know so little about the orders of helping.
00:25:48.651 --> 00:25:51.709
And- It's not as well known as the, as the orders of our love.
00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:52.203
I had been- But,
00:25:52.203 --> 00:25:57.039
but it's the basic of our… How can I facilitate without knowing the orders of helping?
00:25:57.085 --> 00:26:00.865
It's- Mm-hmm … it's, it's, it… For me, it's mandatory in every training.
00:26:01.194 --> 00:26:08.085
And Hellinger himself said, "Don't try to be helpful. Try to be useful." Mm-hmm.
00:26:08.085 --> 00:26:28.030
And that's a big difference Because when we, when… I mean, the thing is, you know, that every one of us in a helping profession, no matter if it's facilitators of constellations, therapists, counselors, social workers, we all do that work or we start doing that work because we want to help.
00:26:28.692 --> 00:26:33.354
Mm. And most of us start doing that work from our own wound from childhood.
00:26:33.354 --> 00:26:33.374
Yeah.
00:26:33.836 --> 00:26:39.215
So we project on other people what, what we bring with us.
00:26:39.647 --> 00:26:44.570
Um, and once we understand this, we can let go of this.
00:26:45.163 --> 00:26:45.932
Absolutely.
00:26:45.961 --> 00:26:46.851
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:46.872 --> 00:26:55.536
And as, as you said, as Jan Jacob said, uh, if I… I have never done any workshop with him, but it's perfect.
00:26:55.556 --> 00:27:00.536
It's, it's absolutely what, what, what I think too and h- Mm … what I teach too.
00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:20.835
Uh, if, if we go, um, if I, if I meet someone, if I encounter someone who suffers and I start thinking,"How can I help that person?" I'm already or projecting something that I think I know what that person needs or I come with my mind.
00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:29.500
So for me it is if I connect with my heart, if I open my heart, I can listen to what comes from that person.
00:27:29.904 --> 00:27:37.626
And as you said, who am I to, to know or who am I to, to know what that person needs in that moment?
00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:38.268
Yeah.
00:27:38.317 --> 00:27:44.538
It might be that someone- You talked about experience, taking away experience.
00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:52.917
It might be that that person needs to go through another month of suffering to understand something.
00:27:52.917 --> 00:27:54.605
All of a sudden, an insight comes up.
00:27:55.163 --> 00:28:01.141
In, in my training groups, most of them are therapists, and this is the first thing that they unlearn.
00:28:01.449 --> 00:28:01.461
Mm-hmm.
00:28:01.461 --> 00:28:11.314
And they all say in their final essays, "One of the most liberating things I learned was that I do not need to help." Yeah.
00:28:11.314 --> 00:28:12.954
That it is enough to be there.
00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:13.782
Yeah.
00:28:13.875 --> 00:28:22.523
Yeah, Maria Dilins c- says, um, in her training, she says, uh, "I'm te- I'm h- I'm going to teach you how to unlearn." Yes.
00:28:22.582 --> 00:28:22.770
Yeah.
00:28:22.770 --> 00:28:22.790
Yes, yes.
00:28:22.790 --> 00:28:26.553
"How to unlearn all the things that- Yeah … the things that you've learned and, and to be."
00:28:26.612 --> 00:28:26.814
Yeah.
00:28:27.241 --> 00:28:30.436
To be present and, uh- Yes … and to see what is there.
00:28:30.538 --> 00:28:30.976
Yeah.
00:28:31.435 --> 00:28:31.678
To be
00:28:31.678 --> 00:28:32.087
with what's in front of you.
00:28:32.087 --> 00:28:37.088
And it's also when we want to help, we are no longer connected with the field.
00:28:37.234 --> 00:28:38.670
The field doesn't want to help.
00:28:38.673 --> 00:28:41.186
The field just brings up what comes.
00:28:41.192 --> 00:28:46.905
So if I want to help, I'm in my head, but I can connect through the f- with the field only through my heart.
00:28:47.204 --> 00:28:54.434
Mm. And, and also hear some people have, have a different idea about what does it mean connected with my heart.
00:28:54.448 --> 00:29:01.987
Some people think, "Oh, yeah, it's empathy, feeling what the other person feels." And I, I always say, "This is an illusion.
00:29:02.278 --> 00:29:05.336
You cannot feel what another person feels.
00:29:05.570 --> 00:29:06.713
It's impossible.
00:29:06.722 --> 00:29:15.446
You feel your own feelings connected with their experience." Mm. Because you might have felt or experienced something similar.
00:29:15.871 --> 00:29:28.559
So empathy is, um… empathy is being with someone without… I don't want to say without feeling, but without being dragged into their feelings.
00:29:28.836 --> 00:29:30.734
Yeah, without absorbing it, do you mean?
00:29:30.734 --> 00:29:30.942
Yes.
00:29:30.958 --> 00:29:32.117
Like, taking it on.
00:29:32.202 --> 00:29:32.538
Yeah.
00:29:32.816 --> 00:29:42.480
Mm. So if I have a client in front of me and I see the client suffering or, or in a very difficult situation, I, I never think,"Oh, my God, that poor person."
00:29:42.828 --> 00:29:43.311
Mm.
00:29:43.814 --> 00:29:47.549
I look at them and I say, "Wow. How strong are they?"
00:29:47.737 --> 00:29:48.396
Yeah.
00:29:48.723 --> 00:29:51.509
"Because-" Yes… Ursula: and let's see what comes up.
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:59.538
Let's see what, what, what in that moment is maybe asked of them or what could be the next steps for them.
00:29:59.935 --> 00:30:00.436
Mm. Yeah.
00:30:00.583 --> 00:30:01.507
That's… Yeah.
00:30:01.958 --> 00:30:02.757
And sometimes it's- Great
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:04.275
aware- it's great awareness.
00:30:04.356 --> 00:30:04.859
Yes.
00:30:04.971 --> 00:30:05.218
Yes.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:05.920
Mm. Yes.
00:30:06.752 --> 00:30:12.917
And, and the interesting thing is also I, I just had… Last weekend I had… Last weekend I think.
00:30:12.917 --> 00:30:13.201
Yeah.
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:21.154
I had a constellation day, and there were two participants who had already done constellations with me.
00:30:22.138 --> 00:30:26.644
And somehow it was always about- the same things.
00:30:27.057 --> 00:30:31.462
And it became so clear that it was the story that was in their mind.
00:30:31.820 --> 00:30:41.713
So I suggested this time to use the life integration process that Wilfried Nelles has developed.
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:42.732
And
00:30:42.732 --> 00:30:58.008
this was mind-blowing, because the life integration process allows us independently from, from the system, allows us to get in touch with ourselves and see ourselves in the different stages of our life.
00:30:58.705 --> 00:31:06.875
Um, and how can I say, uh, uncover the stories that we have created in our mind.
00:31:06.876 --> 00:31:28.111
So it could be that- Mm … I say, "Oh my God, you know, I was such a poor baby, and I was, I was weak from the beginning, and my life started so badly." And then we see that representative, strong, full of power, coming into this life and just saying, "Why don't you let me?"
00:31:28.557 --> 00:31:29.296
Mm.
00:31:29.457 --> 00:31:40.169
So, uh, this is f- for me, it's, it's, it's one of also the, the kinds of constellations that we can do to, especially-
00:31:40.173 --> 00:31:41.618
Wh- who did you say it was?
00:31:41.621 --> 00:31:42.482
Who w- whose?
00:31:42.567 --> 00:31:45.710
It's called the life integration process.
00:31:45.955 --> 00:31:45.976
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:45.976 --> 00:31:49.528
And the, the one who developed it is a German.
00:31:49.538 --> 00:31:52.048
His name is Wilfried Nelles.
00:31:52.179 --> 00:31:53.333
Wilfried Nelles.
00:31:53.367 --> 00:31:55.078
I think I've heard his name before.
00:31:55.526 --> 00:31:55.682
Yes, yes.
00:31:55.727 --> 00:31:57.553
Mm. It's, it's, it's amazing.
00:31:57.553 --> 00:32:03.873
And, and you only have representatives for the, for the stages before you.
00:32:03.887 --> 00:32:11.392
So one representative for yourself in the womb, another representative as a toddler, then the teenager.
00:32:11.784 --> 00:32:19.641
Then depending on your age, if you are still young, if you're a teenager, of course you are you are in the position of the teenager.
00:32:19.663 --> 00:32:23.105
If you are at a young age, then you are in that position.
00:32:23.531 --> 00:32:35.761
Then we have the, the numbers, 5 is… would be m- me, so elder people but before retirement that are still working.
00:32:35.761 --> 00:32:35.771
Yeah.
00:32:36.229 --> 00:32:41.011
And then number 6 is after retirement, so the last stage of our life.
00:32:41.012 --> 00:32:49.750
And number 7 is death, um, never has a representative, but it's there also to be aware, where am I in this moment in my life?
00:32:51.038 --> 00:32:52.769
And it's really… I love it.
00:32:52.933 --> 00:32:53.160
Yeah.
00:32:54.131 --> 00:32:55.173
Fantastic.
00:32:55.244 --> 00:32:56.054
Fantastic.
00:32:56.698 --> 00:33:01.357
Um, if, if someone wants to get one of your books, where would they find it?
00:33:01.971 --> 00:33:03.114
How would they find your book?
00:33:03.194 --> 00:33:04.397
They find it on Amazon.
00:33:04.798 --> 00:33:05.213
Okay.
00:33:05.782 --> 00:33:06.189
Yes.
00:33:06.226 --> 00:33:11.201
It is in, in Eng- So I s- I wrote it first in English and then I translated it in German.
00:33:12.683 --> 00:33:13.111
Yes.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:20.588
So the English is not perfect, but I am not perfect and, uh, it's just how I, how I speak, so yeah.
00:33:20.684 --> 00:33:31.549
But, um, um, yeah, just on Amazon, In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation, or if you put Ursula Maria Bell- In both you can find it.
00:33:31.571 --> 00:33:39.619
It's… You can, uh, find it as a hardcover, hardcover, as a softcover, and- Mm … a e-book.
00:33:39.981 --> 00:33:40.317
Yes.
00:33:40.355 --> 00:33:44.800
It's also in German since last year, but yeah.
00:33:45.407 --> 00:33:46.413
Oh, fantastic.
00:33:46.436 --> 00:33:48.721
And you're on Instagram and Facebook.
00:33:48.721 --> 00:33:49.118
I'm on- Is it?
00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:58.855
I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, but I think I will stop my Facebook because I will take a sabbatical in 2027.
00:33:59.683 --> 00:34:14.170
Mm. Um, I feel that something new wants to be born, which, uh, is more than constellations, so more combining- Mm … logotherapy with the orders of love- Yeah … with constellations.
00:34:14.179 --> 00:34:22.173
But also, at the moment I'm including also the German philosophers because it's, it's all one, it all makes sense.
00:34:22.688 --> 00:34:23.315
Yeah.
00:34:23.315 --> 00:34:24.074
So, yeah.
00:34:24.086 --> 00:34:45.349
So from facilitating and teaching, I want maybe in 2028 come up with something that is more about sharing and how can we live our best lives and contribute the best to this crazy world that is, we have in that moment.
00:34:45.478 --> 00:34:46.889
Um, yeah.
00:34:47.275 --> 00:34:48.800
But we will see what will come up.
00:34:49.041 --> 00:34:49.282
Yeah.
00:34:49.909 --> 00:34:50.489
Yeah.
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.594
Well, I mean, a year sabbatical, a lot can happen in a year, right?
00:34:55.342 --> 00:34:56.150
Absolutely.
00:34:56.150 --> 00:34:56.159
Mm-hmm.
00:34:56.206 --> 00:35:02.474
And I will… I already started to write my second book, which is that combination, so I will take time for that.
00:35:03.391 --> 00:35:17.039
And I'm, I'm… I realize also, and I think this is also something important, that we might not, often not realize when we love what we're doing, how exhausted we can be.
00:35:17.376 --> 00:35:23.119
Mm. I mean, I'm now… It's 16 years that I fully work with constellations.
00:35:23.202 --> 00:35:34.527
I create a genogram of every client I work with, so I have nearly 1,000 genograms here in my book, and, uh, in my, in my desk.
00:35:34.594 --> 00:35:47.630
Done so much deep connection work, uh, creating new seminars, new workshops, the trainings, and I realized that I was just running, running, running, running, creating the next step.
00:35:48.072 --> 00:35:54.320
So it felt like I can allow myself a break now and-
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:03.231
Mm… Ursula: get back to myself, and again, as see what comes up, uh, from within.
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:03.753
Yes.
00:36:04.121 --> 00:36:05.202
Oh, that's wonderful.
00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.340
Yeah, and good, yeah, good reminder for people as well.
00:36:09.755 --> 00:36:10.010
Yeah.
00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:10.097
Yes.
00:36:10.108 --> 00:36:13.204
'Cause, yeah, sometimes we get so absorbed in it.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.108
And I, I was like you, you know.
00:36:15.110 --> 00:36:26.657
The first time I experienced constellations it was like, "Oh, this is… I'm meant to do this." And it's been a real deep passion and, uh, yeah, and flow on ever since then too, so yeah, I get that.
00:36:26.965 --> 00:36:30.532
And, uh, I look forward to seeing what is birthed.
00:36:30.793 --> 00:36:31.400
Thank you.
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:31.422
Yeah.
00:36:31.429 --> 00:36:32.431
Thank you very much.
00:36:32.606 --> 00:36:32.945
Yes.
00:36:32.945 --> 00:36:32.954
Yeah.
00:36:32.985 --> 00:36:42.889
I will continue my newsletter, so if anyone wants to, to, uh, be part of, on my newsletter list, I send them regularly, uh, each month.
00:36:42.958 --> 00:36:46.461
And I always write an article about a topic.
00:36:46.541 --> 00:36:53.155
So, uh, especially next year there will be no more announcements because I don't have any workshops.
00:36:53.164 --> 00:36:53.664
Yeah.
00:36:53.664 --> 00:37:00.355
So it will really be mostly about sharing and, uh, and, and about articles about certain topics.
00:37:00.364 --> 00:37:00.903
Right.
00:37:00.903 --> 00:37:06.090
Maybe I will ask, uh, what people want to know about, so we will see.
00:37:06.139 --> 00:37:06.809
Yeah, so this
00:37:06.809 --> 00:37:09.585
is- So what's the name of your website for people to, um, access?
00:37:09.617 --> 00:37:09.842
It's
00:37:09.844 --> 00:37:12.123
my name, ursulamariabell.com.
00:37:12.490 --> 00:37:12.869
Okay.
00:37:13.105 --> 00:37:13.557
Brilliant.
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:13.824
Yes.
00:37:14.021 --> 00:37:14.456
And we'll put
00:37:14.458 --> 00:37:16.585
that link- Without dots- Yeah … without dashes.
00:37:16.585 --> 00:37:16.594
Yeah.
00:37:16.614 --> 00:37:18.918
Just ursulamariabell.com, yes.
00:37:18.963 --> 00:37:19.141
Yeah.
00:37:19.237 --> 00:37:21.503
We'll put that link into the thread as well.
00:37:21.514 --> 00:37:25.409
So thank you so much for sharing your time.
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.018
And, um, yeah, it's been really lovely to connect with you here on this platform.
00:37:30.438 --> 00:37:32.617
Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me.
00:37:32.655 --> 00:37:37.456
I'm really honored and grateful for you allowing me to be here.
00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:37.708
Oh.
00:37:37.771 --> 00:37:37.911
And, yeah.
00:37:37.927 --> 00:37:38.757
You're welcome.
00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:39.630
It's, it's lovely.
00:37:39.675 --> 00:37:40.012
Yeah.
00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:40.646
Thank you.
00:37:41.483 --> 00:37:41.971
Thank you.
00:37:42.561 --> 00:37:43.485
Thank you for listening.
00:37:44.025 --> 00:37:48.128
Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:54.802
You'll find me at tracy.cartwright, that's Tracy with no E, .cartwright.
00:37:55.128 --> 00:38:04.219
And, or head over to my website, tracycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
00:38:04.862 --> 00:38:09.003
So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.
