The Truth About Botox: Two Experts, Two Very Different Perspectives Ep 35

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Botox has become one of the most normalized beauty treatments in the world.
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It's literally everywhere.
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We talk about it super casually.
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People are going to get it on their lunch breaks.
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And at the same time, I've been seeing so much rising polarity around this conversation.
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So I kept asking myself, how are these two worlds so far apart in this conversation?
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How can one world say this is totally normal and safe when done correctly?
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And another world say this is way more dangerous than people realize.
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As a seeker of truth, this is exactly what I wanted: a more honest and nuanced conversation with both perspectives in one room.
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Dr.
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M, I chose you because when I was thinking of like who is the highest credentialed person that knows the face, I thought of you because you're an oral maxiofacial surgeon.
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I think it's important to discuss the different sides of what's going on.
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I was excited to come here to learn too.
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And then when I talked to you, it was so refreshing because A, you had been an injector and a nurse.
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So again, you had already been inside the space.
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You understand Botox from a deep level.
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And then you chose to walk away from it.
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So what I loved about your approach was you were very graceful.
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I've been waiting for this.
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This is just such powerful information for people to know what the options are.
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So I'm very grateful to you for bringing us together with this.
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And I hope that this makes it everywhere because everyone needs to hear this conversation.
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My whole shtick with this podcast is bringing harmony to different perspectives and bringing nuance and letting people in to discover for themselves.
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This episode is not here to tell you whether Botox is good or bad.
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That is up to you.
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This episode is here to ask have we been having the full conversation?
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And with that said, let's dive in.
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Welcome back to Conscious Conversations, a podcast where we bring all perspectives to the table so you can choose what feels true for you in health, wellness, and spirituality.
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Today's episode is one I've wanted to have for a very long time.
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We're going to be talking about one of beauty culture's biggest debates.
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And we're finally bringing two very different perspectives into one room on the subject of Botox.
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Botox has become one of the most normalized beauty treatments in the world.
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It's literally everywhere.
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We talk about it super casually.
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People are going to get it on their lunch break.
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It has become almost like getting your hair or getting your nails done.
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And at the same time, I've been seeing so much rising polarity around this conversation.
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In the traditional medical and aesthetic world, Botox is talked about as common, studied, routine, and something millions of people do, with what many say are actually a variety of health benefits.
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But in the functional medicine world, the holistic world, the wellness world, the world in which I work very closely with, the conversation is very different.
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People are talking about toxin overload, nervous system effects, autoimmune concerns, chronic illness correlation, and whether this is something we should even be putting in our bodies at all.
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So I kept asking myself, how are these two worlds so far apart in this conversation?
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How can one world say this is totally normal and safe when done correctly, and another world say this is way more dangerous than people realize?
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As a seeker of truth, this is exactly what I wanted: a more honest and nuanced conversation with both perspectives in one room.
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:06.639
This episode is not here to tell you whether Botox is good or bad.
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That is up to you.
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This episode is here to ask have we been having the full conversation?
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And ultimately, it will be your call to discern whether Botox feels right or wrong for you after this.
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And with that said, let's dive in.
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So I'm so happy to have you both here.
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I'm really happy to be here too.
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This conversation has been over a year in the making.
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I think I reached out to you a long time ago.
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And then finally I found you and we spoke.
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And the reason it took me so long is because I really wanted to have harmony with the conversation, but I also really wanted to go there.
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And so I was like, okay, I need, I need two people that will like really do that.
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And so I'm I'm really excited to have you both here.
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So before we dive in, I I also would love to share like why I chose the both of you and what came up for me around that.
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So, Dr.
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M, I chose you because when I was thinking of like who is the highest credentialed person that knows the face, I thought of you, right?
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Because you're an oral maxiofacial surgeon, right?
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You went to dental school.
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You have trained surgically, cosmetically, like neck up is you.
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That's my world.
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So I was like, we gotta have that.
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And also I just felt like, yeah, when I brought it up to you, like you were just like, let's do it, let's go there.
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I think it's important to to discuss the different sides of what's going on.
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I was excited to meet Shelly and um fascinated by the facial yoga stuff.
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I have to be honest with you.
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I don't know much about it.
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Oh, we'll talk about it.
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We'll talk about it.
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I'm completely fascinated by it.
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And um I think I use a little bit of that stuff in my in my practice, but I I'm here to learn too at the same time.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And again, that's why I like your your openness, your integrity with everything.
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And yeah, I also was like, not many people will sit in a room when Botox is being questioned.
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And so I just love that about you.
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You were like, let's do it.
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Like, let's have the combo.
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Yeah, I think it's an important conversation.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So that's why I chose you.
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And then Shelly, it took me a while.
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I was meeting with all different people, people who felt they were Botox injured, people like functional medicine um providers.
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And then when I talked to you, it was so refreshing because A, you had been an injector and a nurse.
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So again, you had already been inside the space.
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You understand Botox from a deep level.
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And then you chose to walk away from it.
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So what I loved about your approach was you were very graceful in your approach.
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And so I loved that.
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And I'm I'm definitely really excited to have you.
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I'm excited to dive into this.
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And I'm really excited to to meet you and hear all about your work too.
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Yeah, I think even when I reached out to you, you said something like, I've been waiting for this.
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I've been waiting for this.
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Yeah, I mean, we'll get into it, but yeah, I just think this could be such a powerful, this is just such powerful information for people to know what the options are and know that they it's not an either-or situation.
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This is something that can actually be married together and people can actually achieve their beauty goals based on their values.
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And so I think that this is I'm so I'm very grateful to you for bringing us together with this.
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And I hope that this makes it everywhere because it everyone needs to hear this conversation.
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Yeah.
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And like I said, I was just it, there were so many moments where I felt like it was gonna be like a war.
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And I, my whole shtick with this podcast is bringing harmony to different perspectives and bringing nuance and letting people in to discover for themselves.
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I'm excited to dive in.
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I'd love for you guys both to introduce yourself, your credentials, your background, and how would you describe your current stance on Botox?
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Ladies first.
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So I um I started in the world of aesthetics.
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For anyone who doesn't know what an aesthetician is, we basically specialize in beauty and skincare.
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Um, so I started in aesthetics, then I became a nurse.
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I worked on uh in a very big pub uh private hospital in New York on a med surge floor.
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I worked in a stroke unit.
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I also worked uh in interventional radiology.
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At the same time I was doing that, I was also learning about how to become a nurse injector.
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Um and so I kind of did all three of those things for a while uh while also building my skincare line.
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And then, you know, things just had to sort of balance out.
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I ended up leaving injections.
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I was at some point addicted to Botox, but I had left it and I will never go back.
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I um I went to dental school.
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You mentioned that earlier, and then after dental school, I did a four-year residency in oral and maxillofacial surgery, where it's a hospital-based residency, and essentially we take care of all things from the clavicles up, and that could mean cancer, it can mean reconstructive surgery, whether it's corrective jaw surgery, it can mean temporal mandibular joint surgery, um uh dental implants, um, cosmetic surgery.
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So essentially my playground is the face, the head and neck.
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Um and then I did a fellowship after my residency, specifically just in facial cosmetic surgery.
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So I spent a year just facelift rhinoplasties, autoplastes, um, contouring, lasers, all that fun stuff.
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And funny enough, when I was in fellowship, I think I injected one person.
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It wasn't, and this is 2004 to 2005, it was just like starting to, it wasn't as mainstream as it is now.
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There were no medi spas, there were none of the nurse injectors, didn't even exist.
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The that part didn't exist.
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I came later.
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So um I then came back to uh New York, New Jersey, opened up my practice, I run a fellowship in cosmetic surgery.
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And my stance on Botox, and I'm using Botox as a kind of a my Kleenex.
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Um it there are different types now, but my stance on it is when done correctly, it's good.
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When overdone, it's ridiculous.
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And it's you know again, this is my world of you know, trying to mitigate an overdose of people wanting to come in and not understanding like, hey, my I have this little line that keeps moving.
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It's like okay, it's just a line, it's fine.
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It's not like the end of the world.
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So less is more, in my opinion.
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But there's a business side of it from the not only from the medical um, you know, the the aesthetic companies, right?
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They're trying to push it, and that's the narrative.
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The narrative is, you know, push and get more, and then you know, things have expanded.
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You know, first it was just glabella injections, now it's full face and neck, and and it's okay in certain places, but you know, again conservative.
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Yeah.
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Amazing.
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Well, before we dive into the meat and potatoes, um, I thought it would be helpful to share with the the viewers um my stance and my story with Botox.
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So when I was 27, um, I got Botox for the first time with Dr.
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M, and it wasn't for wrinkles.
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I don't know if you remember, but I had very pitted acne scars growing up.
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It was something I was super insecure about, and all my acne girlies know.
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And um, I had done all the lasers, I had done all the treatments, and I remember coming to you and I was like, what can I do?
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And you were like, for the fastest approach, we can do Botox.
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And it was a game changer.
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It was like automatically and I I was a different person.
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Like I felt so confident.
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And so that was really helpful.
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So I understand the understood the benefits aesthetically, and yeah, it was a game changer for me.
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And then at 33, I got randomly really ill.
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So about three years ago, just turned 36 and um, like mysteriously ill, and the traditional medicine world couldn't figure it out.
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And it's now what we know Lyme disease and mold illness.
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And basically, what the functional medicine world had said to me was stop Botox, pause completely because it's a toxin.
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And what we now know is toxins, you know, fill the bucket, and then Botox can be adding to that and can overfill the bucket.
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So just don't do it.
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And then I went down the rabbit hole and I was like, what?
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I've never even heard that before.
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So went down the rabbit hole, and and that was kind of you know my journey with it, where I was just like, I stopped for while I figured out what was going on.
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Um, so I've lived both sides of it, right?
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Like the benefits and then like the fear.
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So I'm I'm viewing and discerning and learning along with you of like where I stand, but that's my my experience and really where the origins of like this conversation came from for me.
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Do you remember that when I was okay?
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I was like, I have so many acting.
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So yeah, I get I get both perspectives for sure.
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Before the bigger cultural conversation, I want to break down what Botox actually is, like what's in it, what it's used for, etc.
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A lot of people, you know, hear Botox and they just think of wrinkles, but obviously there's also other uses for it.
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So um, Dr.
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M, we can we go to you.
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What in simple terms, what is Botox?
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So Botox or botulinum toxin essentially comes from a bacteria, Clostridium botulinum.
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And every and it's a natural, very potent, neurotoxic um kind of substance.
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If you know you take it in its natural form, it can actually kill you because it can stop your breathing.
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I mean, so there are toxic levels of this.
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I think what we need to do as far as like understanding on the safety profile of it is that these this toxin or where this comes from is a purified uh version of it.
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It's in like one tenth of a millionth of the strength of what that is.
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Um and then relay that to how it's used medically.
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And I and I think when you look at that, and then you say, okay, well, it comes from a bacteria.
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Well, there are other medications that we use.
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Statins come from bacteria.
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There is cancer medicine that comes from bacteria, there are antibiotics that come from bacteria.
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So this is not the only, so to speak, drug that we get from nature, right?
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And then we use it in human beings and in for for medicine.
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That being said, um the way it works is it blocks the release of a neurotransmitter, which is basically here's your nerve, here's your muscle, right?
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And when it when it's injected, it stops the release of the message.
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And it's a temporary release.
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It's not a full, like you'd get it once and it's done, as everyone knows.
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If you've ever had it done, it only lasts about three or four, you know, four, three or four weeks.
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Months, sorry.
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So it's a temporary blockade of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine that then stops that muscle from contracting.
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That's essentially how it works.
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It's temporary type thing.
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Um so there are other things about it that people I'm sure we'll get to it, but that's the way it works.
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Okay.
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In essence, where it comes from.
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Okay.
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Beautiful.
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Um and then Yeah.
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And and then um what is it used for both uh cosmetically and medically?
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Yeah, so you know, in initially it wasn't even a cosmetic uh procedure.
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It was used more in medicine.
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It was used in ophthalmology for uh double vision or diplopia, uh, where the strabismus where the eyes were a little uh crooked, so they would inject into certain muscles and allow that muscle to relax and then straighten out straighten out the muscle so the so the eye would be straight.
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Um it's used in all sorts of neuromuscular spasticity in in kids over a certain age, um uh hyperhydrosis, which is um you know oversweating, hyper excessive sweating.
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Um it's now used in headaches, it's used in uh urinary issues, there's used in uh anal fissures, there's a bunch, a bunch of cholesterolasticity, a lot, a lot of medical, right, a lot of medical things that are used.
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Uh even hypersalivation.
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If someone has hypersalivation, you can inject it into the glands where we make saliva, and it'll reduce the amount of saliva being made, which again, it sounds silly, but it's very helpful for a patient in that situation.
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And then, Shelley, when you were injecting, were you mostly seeing cosmetic cases or are you seeing some of those medical cases?
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I was doing only cosmetic, and people would come to me for the medical, and I would just have to say, I'm sorry.
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Like I can't, I'm not trained in that.
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I'm not, you know, I'm not a doctor.
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I'm literally a cosmetic nurse injector.
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So we can do your forehead and maybe a little lip flip and something for the DAO muscles, and that's it.
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People would even come to me for a masseter, which is a fairly simple way of injecting, but I still was always very conservative because, you know, you you you just we have a we have an oath to not do harm.
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And so why would, you know, why put myself and that person in a position where I could possibly do harm?
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Because while it is like a when you're doing Botox cosmetically, it is such a small dose compared to these medical uses, like the amount that you're putting into the body for someone with cerebral palsy or post-stroke spasticity, way different.
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Way different.
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And so, and that is one of the ways when I was injecting that I would explain it to people because they would be concerned with the dose.
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And I would say, Do you realize it's such a small amount compared to what it's medically used for?
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But I was only seeing people for cosmetic reasons.
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Okay.
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Um I want to get into the normalization of Botox.
00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:47.039
So, like I was saying, Botox has become like it's like nails, hair, Botox on the lunch break, right?
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:51.759
Um, but at the end of the day, it's still something like literally you're injecting into your face.
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.440
So not so casual.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.400
So I I wanted to ask either and both of you this.
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:03.839
When do you think Botox became so normalized that we stopped treating it like a real medical or cosmetic like intervention?
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:05.440
Wow.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:12.400
Um I think social media played a huge I was gonna say the same thing.
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:13.279
Social media.
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:13.680
Okay.
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:26.400
I think once you started getting some of these actresses and really, you know, high power stars coming out and doing things and and being open about it, I think it kind of just like opened the floodgate on it.
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:26.720
Yeah.
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:28.559
And you were on the Housewives of Jersey.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.240
I remember seeing you on that, right?
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:31.359
That's so funny.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.559
I think it was and it was an experience.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:35.200
It was an experience.
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:35.680
Wow.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:41.119
And you know, um I think it shouldn't be normalized.
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:49.599
And I don't think that you know, putting something in your body should be something that's done very flippantly.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:19:05.200
Um but you know, y you can walk and not to name any like medis, but you can walk down a street and probably hit ten different medi spas without an appointment, do a quick intake form and say, I want to get shot up.
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.240
And it could go south.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.519
It could go south really quick.
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:22.480
But but the normalization of it, I believe, yeah probably happened like at the end of like normally like towards like the end of like 2000, right after right after 2008 where the economy hit like the pits.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:27.519
Yeah, and when we came back, it was like gangbusters, and then everyone was getting it.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:39.119
And then what we've noticed, or at least what I've noticed, is it was normally like the 30s and 40s, like old like 30, like late 30s, 40-year-olds were coming in and getting injected.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:46.480
It started to creep down, and now we're seeing you know, I I call them kids 20s.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.759
And it's kind of like we don't need to do that.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.000
Yeah.
00:19:50.960 --> 00:20:03.759
There's other ways to so for me, I I I don't have like an age limit, but I do have a responsibility to like say, This is young, you're young, yeah, let's talk about other things.
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:08.400
And and we do, we push them towards more collagen stimulating and stuff that's gonna keep them young.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:08.799
Yeah.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:10.240
I remember you did that with me at 27.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.480
You're like, I mean, we there's other and I'm like, I need something.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:13.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:13.920
Yeah.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.319
But the thing is, it's like so easy, right?
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:17.519
It's a couple needles.
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:17.759
Yeah.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:26.480
Three or four days later it kicks in, and it's like, wow, it's erased this what we what people consider the aging process, which is a line.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:27.680
Right?
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.359
But when you were a kid, your face moved normal, right?
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:41.759
You raised your eyebrows, you smiled, you did all sorts of facial movements, but you didn't look at yourself and say, Wow, I look old.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:42.400
Right?
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.240
At a certain age.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:56.079
So is the movement or is there other things that are going on in the facial aging process that as me as a surgeon that I look at and say, okay, it's not so much the muscle as it is other things.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.480
Volume, laxity in ligaments, skin texture.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.279
That is way more important to me than muscle movement.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:08.799
Yeah, I would agree.
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:16.160
And there's also, I mean, just to kind of piggyback on that, there's so many different ways that you can work with the face.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.279
There are different layers of the face, they all work synergistically.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:35.920
And so I know that we'll get into this, but like the way I approach it now is just by basically working with all of those layers of the face so that they can function together, so that that muscle movement is not being compounded and and you're not seeing the wrinkles as deeply.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:43.519
You're still seeing the expression, but you're not seeing the wrinkles as deeply because you've been creating movement within the connective tissue and within the fascia.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:59.759
And um, and you know, to to talk a little bit more about the normalization of it, you know, you see like I I think I actually kind of blame like um, I mean, obviously social media, but like actual media, like editors, like you know, bringing bringing faces up and scrutinizing and talking.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.519
About what these people are doing for their luxury treatment.
00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:10.799
So then it becomes something that we all want because it's a luxury treatment, because it's what celebrities are doing, it's what all the rich people are doing.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.559
I mean, they did that with soy milk, right?
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:17.440
They marketed soy milk as this like high-end thing to get everybody hooked on it.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.559
And now, you know, we know it's not necessarily the best thing for your body.
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:24.000
And I think they basically did the same thing with Botox, yeah.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:29.920
Where they just made it so like this achievement that you can, I can afford Botox.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.599
I look at my forehead, it's so smooth.
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:32.799
I have Botox now.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:40.400
And it it became more almost like a status thing than it did about what was going on with the face.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:42.640
That's what I saw as well.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.680
And then social media just like makes it worse because you, you know, look at my forehead, it's so smooth.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.000
And you know, people want to have that too.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:23:07.839
And then the, you know, the whole comparison with like other people, and it just kind of just spirals until everybody it just becomes a normal thing where you just walk into a a shop and you can literally get it because all you need is a license to order it, a course, a weekend course to you know, learn and get your certification, and then that's it.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:08.880
You can shoot people up with it.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:09.680
Like Greek.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.160
Yeah.
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:15.119
Because that kind of brings me into the next point, which is like skill and responsibility.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:20.640
So again, we'll we're gonna get into the cultural conversation, but and like the moral and ethics and all of that.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:28.400
But the more we normalize Botox, right, the easier it becomes, like I was saying, to forget that the face is not like a casual situation.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:34.799
But there's so many people injecting to your point, like med spas, nurse injectors, doctors, dentists, surgeons.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:43.039
So it I think there's a lot of options, and it feels confusing for people, like even who to trust, and because I think that's also adding to the normalization.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.319
Like there's so many places you could literally walk down the street and hit 10 spots.
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:47.039
So, Dr.
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.400
M, in your opinion, who is qualified to inject Botox and what kind of training could someone really have?
00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:06.559
So when I first came out of fellowship um as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon trained in facial cosmetic surgery, I could put people's faces back together from a gunshot wound.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.400
I could do blephyroplasts, I could do all sorts of things.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:31.759
There was, because I was the kind of the first one of my specialty that was specifically trained in aesthetics, the local, you know, plastic surgeons, ENT surgeons, dermatologists, they kind of got their you know, their their their hair went up a little bit and was like, Well, you're a dentist, you're not qualified.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:45.759
Um so the whole specialty thing um is you know, as long as you're licensed to treat that part of the face, I think is one thing, right?
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:55.759
And that's like saying, well, you can go to a breast reconstructive surgeon who sits there and does cancer reconstruction, but he's licensed to do Botox.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:02.559
But if you go to him, you may or her, you may or may not get the response that you're looking for.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.680
It may not be natural, you may get a drow, a brow drop.
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:17.359
So the question is, it's not just the it's not just the degree or your your specialty, it's your education, your experience, and your aesthetic.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:20.880
You're your your aesthetic of like what should be and what shouldn't be.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:27.359
You know, cosmetic surgery for me, and I say this all the time, every time I lecture or whatever I do, it should whisper.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:35.039
There's no reason why it needs to be like boom in your face, like I got my lips done, or I got my brows, and and they're like peaked up into your forehead.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:36.799
It's that's a ridiculous thing.
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:44.319
So getting back to who should do it, um I think uh I think nurses should be able to do it.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:49.599
I I think you know, dentists, if they're qualified and they're trained correctly, I think should do it.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:58.480
I think any obviously any medical doctor who is trained and and and experienced in doing it, but the training is the most important part of it.
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:04.480
So just because you have a license to kill doesn't mean you should be going out and doing whatever it is, you know.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:09.200
Um so for example, my I have a nurse injector in my practice.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:14.240
She watched me for three years.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:21.039
And I trained her for three years before I allowed her to touch a patient.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:29.200
She watched, I try, you know, we drew on her face, we talked about muscles, we talked about nerves, we talked about injecting this, what happens here.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:35.359
So, you know, the face is very complicated, and it seems like, well, it's just you know, a little toxin the forehead in between.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:39.359
Everything is there's a re there's an action and a reaction.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:53.039
So it was become, you know, and and when she finally started to inject her, you know, her her education, the three years with me doing, you know, learning, she basically caught on really quick.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.680
I mean, it was just repetition, repetition, repetition.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.920
So I think a weekend course is not, you know, that's ridiculous.
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:03.920
But that's that you can do that.
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:04.880
You know, you can do that.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:16.799
You can, you know, you can order, you can go to the and you go to the course where the the companies are at, and essentially they put a training course on, and at the end of the training course, like how many vials you want to order, and you're a new account, and that's the way it works.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:24.000
Um, so I think that there's there's something to be said about training and not just training on a weekend.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:31.599
Um but there are many different specialties who are exceptional, and and and there are people who are not great in each specialty.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:38.079
There's you know, it's not not one specialty is better than the other because there's good and bad in in all of them.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.079
So if that's yeah.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.559
Some people will say, like, oh, you should go to an injector because it's all they do is just inject, inject, inject.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.960
And then some people prefer that's a valid argument because you know they do.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.200
They see day in and day out.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:09.119
And my example of going to, you know, a reconstructive, you know, breast surgeon who probably hasn't picked up a needle in years, um probably he would say to you go to my nurse injector, you know, because they're better at it at that point.
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:15.200
So the the I I know I know some nurse injectors who are like wizards, they're amazing.
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:21.680
Um and then I know some surgeons who maybe not the best, yeah, because they're just not doing it all the time.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:22.000
Right.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:23.359
So good point.
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:33.359
And Shelly, as someone who was inside the industry, did you feel like the industry held the level of responsibility and informed consent that injections require?
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.559
Yes and no.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:44.640
Um, you know, with any sort of medical procedure, you have a consent form and you can put whatever you need to in the consent form to cover your butt.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:58.400
Um, but I I think that especially now that we're seeing at least, I don't know if it's more prevalent or if we're just seeing it more, more complications of Botox.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:13.759
I think that it is something that if I were to be in, you know, if I could put myself back um, you know, those years ago when I was injecting, I would be a lot more like in depth going through that consent form with people to make sure that they were making an informed decision.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:19.279
Because when I was, you know, starting out, I started at a weekend course and they were like, oh, you can inject.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.720
And I'm like, are you kidding me?
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:22.319
Like, I don't feel comfortable doing that.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:23.279
And they're like, no, it's easy.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:24.480
You just here's the consent form.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.759
They give you a sample consent form with all the information you need.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.160
Um, and then they give you, you know, a map.
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:31.279
Just follow the map.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.039
Just follow the map and you'll be fine.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.279
And I was still so I I just couldn't do it.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:37.039
I had to get, you know, private training.
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.680
I had individual training, uh, you know, groups.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:45.359
I, you know, joined like a chat group where we were all like helping each other until I finally felt comfortable doing it.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:30:05.599
Um, I think that um one thing that is not on the consent form, and this is not really a medical thing, but there are, in my opinion, long-term downstream effects of continually doing Botox and injections in general.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.279
You know, I know we're not going to be talking about filler, but especially filler.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:09.599
Okay.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:20.799
We are going to get to like there are downstream negative effects that if you continue doing them over and over and really just becoming reliant on them.
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.839
Uh, that is something that's not talked about in the consent form.
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:31.839
That is something that's really not talked about in the treatment room because I don't think a lot of people recognize that that is something that can happen to people.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.160
It doesn't happen with everybody, but it can.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.839
Um, so do does the consent form cover your butt as an injector?
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.000
Yeah, because you can put anything you need to in there.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.599
I mean, like you go get a medical procedure, they will put you could have a stroke and die.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:46.720
You're still signing it.
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:50.000
Yes, I want this procedure because I need it to save my life, you know.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:31:05.920
But um I think that nowadays the consent is a lot more important for people to really scrutinize and go through and ask questions to their injector before they move, you know, move forward and get stuff done to their face.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:13.759
I love that you brought up the downstream effects because now we're gonna talk about the the toxin debate.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:24.720
So the biggest polarization that I see in the conversation of Botox is between the traditional medicine world and the functional medicine holistic world.
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:30.400
In the functional medicine world, there is a lot of conversation around toxic load.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:41.200
You know, whether it's mold, lime, parasites, heavy metal, environmental toxins, inflammation, just all of it, a bucket filling of toxins in the body.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:48.720
So when I got sick, like I was saying, with lime and mold, one of the first things they said to me was stop Botox because it's a toxin.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:53.759
And then you have communities like Instagram accounts like NeverTalks.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:54.880
I think I sent you it today.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:10.799
So NeverTox is starting to pick up a lot of momentum where people share stories of what they believe has been Botox injuries, things like neurological symptoms, weakness, seizures, hair loss, ending up in wheelchairs, and feeling dismissed by their experience.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.119
So with all that said, um Dr.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:16.319
M, we'll start with you.
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:26.960
When you hear the claim that Botox is a toxin and could contribute to toxic load, chronic illness, autoimmune issues, neurological symptoms, et cetera, what do you say?
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:35.680
Well, I go back to thinking on how this toxin works.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:55.519
And I think one of the things that maybe the functional medicine view is that when you inject to uh Botox or any of the neuromuscular blockers, when you inject it, you have a potential spread.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:59.359
So the spread is what fear is the fearing, right?
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:14.240
And that spread, you know, let's say I'm injecting someone's crow's feet, but the spread was a little too much, and it got into levator, which is a muscle that opens your eye, and then someone gets what's called pis, where the eyelid is a little bit droopier.
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:20.960
So the the potential or the fear is that it's going to spread.
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:42.799
But to extrapolate that because these work at a neuromuscular junction, to extrapolate that, to say that there is something that's going on at a distant site from a from a medical standpoint, I don't grasp it.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:50.720
Um do I think the toxin, as we talked about earlier, is a high dose toxin?
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:52.000
I don't.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:52.960
I don't.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:34:03.200
But you know, and I've been doing this for twenty something years and have I seen my fair share of like weirdness type of stuff?
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:04.960
Yeah, I have.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:11.760
Um do I feel that I can contribute it to an injection?
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:14.159
It's hard to do that sometimes.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.679
And I'm not saying anything's possible, right?
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:19.840
I don't think the numbers are there.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.960
Like, you know, there's always like a bell curve, right?
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.480
There's always like the outliers of what's going on.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:31.039
And to to to sit here and say absolutely not would be ridiculous.
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.480
That's not the that's not the point.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:38.159
Um, but I would say for the major it's a very I mean Botox has been used for many, many years.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:45.519
For the majority of people, and I'm gonna say 80% because I'm gonna say ten are on either side of the bell curve.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:56.159
Um I I just think it's it's a pretty well s kind of uh studied type of um medication.
00:34:56.320 --> 00:35:02.960
I mean you have a higher risk of having an allergic reaction to an antibiotic than you do of having a a real like adverse effect.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.360
I'm not talking about a complication from an injection.
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:08.159
You can get a bruise, you can get the dispersion to another muscle.
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:09.199
Those are different things.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:20.159
But an actual problem down the road, I I don't I don't I don't see that, but that's you know, that that's just my experience too.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:35.679
You know, uh and I don't know any personally, I don't know any studies that can contribute um and say, well, this medic this long-term medication that you've been in for a decade of your life has created X, Y, and Z.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:38.000
Unless I just don't know.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:39.119
I haven't heard it.
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:39.440
Right.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:40.559
I haven't heard it.
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:42.559
So what do you think?
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:43.519
Same question.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:54.880
When you see Botox injury stories or you hear the holistic concerns about toxin load, I know it's not your main focal point and we'll get dive into that.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.320
But what do you feel about the conversation of toxin load?
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:04.880
So I believe that there is, you know, such a thing as, you know, as you were to say, like filling the bucket with like toxins and toxins.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.679
Um I think there's definitely something to that.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.920
I feel like nowadays, especially, you know, we have like 5G, we have toxins in the food.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:17.119
We have, I mean, there's so many things that be could be compounding.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:19.039
And then you put like a toxin on top of that.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:25.840
So yes, when I see those stories, I have a lot of sympathy because I'm like, you're like one in a million that that happened to you.
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:31.039
Like it's a very, very small number of people who that happens to, but it's possible.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:31.280
Yeah.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:31.599
Right.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.239
And we don't know who, why, like how.
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:47.280
We don't know, but there I believe that there is some sort of either toxic overload happening or there's something where that injection just sets something off in your genes that like caused a reaction.
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:47.760
Yeah.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.480
Um, but I I mean, I don't think that happens a lot.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:52.800
Yeah.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:54.880
I think it's a very, very small number.
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:55.280
Yeah.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.239
I think it's becoming more spoken about.
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:03.119
And so people believe that it's happening more, but I still think that it's a very, very small number of people.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:13.199
However, I, as a former injector, if someone is like asking me, like what, you know, what my stance is on Botox, I never use the toxin argument.
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.599
I never use the toxin argument because it doesn't work.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.239
You can tell people a million times, don't drink alcohol, it's not good for you.
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.159
They're at the bar like that night.
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:30.559
I mean, you can't use the toxin argument to sway people because you're just trying to fear-monger them, first of all.
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.880
You're trying to shame them and no one cares.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:37.119
If they want a smooth forehead and they don't want wrinkles around their eyes, they don't care.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:38.880
They're going to go get the toxin.
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:49.119
And so my perspective is to talk about it more from okay, but what if I told you that this could actually uh prevent you from reaching your full beauty potential?
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:49.440
Yeah.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:50.880
That's what gets people.
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:59.599
When you, when they hear that this could actually with those downstream effects actually be affecting their long-term beauty, that now they're listening.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:37:59.920
Yeah.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.840
And that's really, that's really what it is.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.760
Like, I mean, everything is a toxin.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.079
You binge watch on Netflix, that's a toxin.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:07.679
Your relationship could be toxic.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.880
Like there are so many other toxic things you're doing in your life.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:15.039
You want to say, like, that just Botox is the toxic thing you do.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.320
It's a small thing, but when it's compounded, it can make a difference.
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:18.719
Yeah.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.960
But I mean, you can't, you, you can't just say, oh, you know, that person does Botox.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:23.679
They're toxic.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:24.000
Yeah.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.159
I mean, it it just doesn't work that way.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:26.719
Yeah.
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:27.280
Yeah.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:43.039
I the even the word tox is kind of weird to me because, you know, yes, it comes from a bacteria that's a toxin, but again, it's so modified and it's so like it's not a we're not putting toxin, pure toxin into your body.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:47.679
Like I said before, there are antibiotics that we use that's a that comes from bacteria.
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:48.000
Yeah.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:54.320
These are these are bacterial sources of medications that we use in our bodies.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.880
And and and you know, some of you would say, well, that's because they need it, right?
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:00.159
That's a medical reason.
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.000
This is an elective reason.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.320
And you know, but medicine is medicine.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:11.519
And I think that even just the word toxin, it almost makes it fear-mongering just by using toxin.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:19.679
This is a whole section because this has been very there were people that wanted to come on, like I said, that were like ready to go about the toxic.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.800
It's not about scaring in.
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.719
It's not about saying, oh, we're gonna neuro, we're gonna tox you.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:26.880
Like I don't want to get toxed.
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:34.960
Like, also, as someone, as a female, if someone said, hey, this is a toxin, but I really want a smooth forehead, that argument isn't going to work on me.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:36.320
I'm still going to get it.
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:41.039
I tell them I'm putting crazy glue on their forehead and they're gonna kill it because they're gonna be smooth.
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:41.760
It doesn't like to be.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.440
What about the black box warning?
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:45.360
What what does that actually mean?
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:48.400
Because that's been coming up a lot on never talks accounts.
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:50.320
Like it's a has a black box warning.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.880
It shouldn't go in the lot of medications have black boxes.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.519
So many medications have black box boxes.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.480
So basically what happens is they they they put out a drug, right?
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:06.000
And then after they do post-release studies, and then if something pops up that didn't really pop up before, they put a black box warning on.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:14.320
I think what people need to understand, at least from my perspective, is that you your decision needs to be based off of not feeling afraid, right?
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:23.199
Whether it's whether it's I'm afraid of wrinkles, so I'm I'm afraid of wrinkles, so I'm gonna go get Botox, or I'm afraid of the toxin, so I'm not going to get Botox.
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.440
The decision should not be based out of fear.
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:47.039
If you understand the face, if you understand the downstream effects of what could potentially happen with your face as you get older, and what is what the toxin and what fillers and what injections and you know, sometimes what even surgery is preventing you from discovering within yourself and within your own face, then you'll get people listening.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:47.360
Yeah.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:52.639
Then you'll get people to start thinking of beauty and themselves in a different way.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.119
You mentioned the downstream effects.
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:55.599
Yeah.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:55.920
Right.
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:01.360
So tell me more what you you were meaning by that, your opinion of downstream effects.
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:11.679
Um, so I think when you become reliant on injections, uh, a couple different things can happen.
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:22.800
Um, when we're talking about just Botox specifically, and we can also bring filler into this as well, but when we're talking about Botox specifically, I can just speak from my own experience.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:32.960
I was starting to notice weird things, just you know, droopier brows, uh puffiness in the face, things that I just couldn't really explain.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.400
But I, you know, and that's just the nature of what Botox does, right?
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:37.519
It relaxes the muscles.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.920
So it's going to affect the nearby muscles as well.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:42.960
And I don't think that Botox is for everyone.
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.599
I think that some people just don't look good with it.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.960
I was one of those people.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:50.159
But I think some people can wear it really well and they're fine.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:42:00.079
Uh, I was noticing weird changes in my own face, and I was noticing other things like puffiness, and some of my clients and my patients were also kind of reporting the same thing.
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:01.599
So I started noticing this pattern.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.920
And at first it was just kind of like, oh, that's weird.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:05.360
Let's do some lip drainage.
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.719
But it kept coming up and it was coming up for me too.
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:19.280
And so I just started connecting the dots more and digging a little bit deeper into what is actually happening to the rest of the face when you're injecting this stuff into your forehead, for example.
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:23.360
And basically what happens is, you know, you're paralyzing the muscle.
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.880
And so when you paralyze the muscle, the muscle's no longer moving.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:34.800
And our lymphatic system moves through uh muscular movement, uh, manual manipulation, and like breath and sweat.
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:42.719
Okay, so when you stop that muscular movement, you're not gonna have as much pumping of the lymphatic fluid.
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:45.760
And so that's where things like that puffiness come into play.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.239
And so I was starting to question like, okay, this is starting to look weird on me.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:55.920
And then I started to really kind of go deeper and just, you know, ask, like, what am I doing?
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:57.440
You know, like what am I chasing?
00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.679
What am I, what am I really after here?
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:04.880
Like, am I just, do I just want like a smooth forehead or do I want to like really love my face?
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:08.239
You know, and it's just I it was a struggle.
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:19.599
And at the same time that I was noticing that, you know, I was also, you know, as the injector, I was also just feeling like, where is this taking people?
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:20.000
Right.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:35.599
And ultimately, I just wasn't fulfilled with leading people down a path where they were basically bypassing the opportunity to heal the very thing that put that wrinkle there on their face in the first place.
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:38.719
And that's getting into like the more like spiritual aspect of it.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:40.480
Yeah, sorry.
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:41.440
Went ahead.
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:42.400
No, no, no, no.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:57.920
But like, you know, you also, I mean, to go back to the physicality of it, you know, like when you're the downstream effect is, you know, the muscle will relax and you're constantly injecting it every few months, it will eventually start to atrophy because you're not using it, right?
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.599
You know that like if you break your leg.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:05.280
You know, a couple weeks later, that leg is going to look smaller because the muscle hasn't been pumping.
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:07.280
So you get this atrophy of the muscle.
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:12.000
At some point in your life, the Botox just doesn't work.
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:14.079
I think it's like past age 70 or something.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.280
It just kind of stops working.
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:16.639
And I experimented with that.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:20.079
And it kind of just doesn't take the same effect on older women.
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:27.760
Yeah, I think it, I think the effects are different when you get like to an I would even say 70, 75.
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:28.000
Yeah.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.039
Probably the age.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.960
And I was noticing that it just didn't, it just didn't work the same.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:38.400
So then I was just thinking, like, what is the plan for people when this starts to happen?
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:50.159
When you start to have that droopy brow that's like pushing down, pushing down consistently, consistently, when you have like this puffiness that just perpetuates in the face, that's like, you know, could restricting the movement of the face.
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:53.920
And um, you know, eventually the muscle like just atrophies.
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.840
Like, is that leading to like the sagging skin?
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.639
I don't know, but like can I comment on the atrophy part?
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:00.079
Because I think it it's really important.
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.079
I think the atrophy, you bring up a great point with like breaking a leg and getting a cash.
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:13.039
You definitely, you know, I think your long your skeletal muscles of like working out, lifting, there's studies on showing you know your quadricep.
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:22.960
If you have a strong quadricep, it actually makes your femur a lot stronger, which is really important for you know, especially for women getting older, you don't break a hip, you don't break your uh a femur.
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.320
Um the if if you're again, I'm gonna go back, if you're doing this correctly, right?
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:44.800
If you're injecting correctly and you're not being insane and injecting every month or every two months, the way the nerves are stimulating the facial muscles are you you blockade that and the main nerve, right, going into the muscle.
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:48.639
And during that time, the nerve is really, really smart.
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:57.920
So what it does, it starts to branch off new nerve endings to go beyond that blockage.
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:12.000
So it's going to come in and it's going to start to try to stimulate that muscle, and then around the same time, the neuromuscular block, hey, Botox, well, then it doesn't work anymore.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:15.280
So then these nerves are coming back.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:21.280
You need to give the muscles some time to get stimulated.
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:29.360
Definitely, if someone is going to treat and not have any movement on their face for years and years and years, you're gonna atrophy.
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:32.960
Of course you are, but that's not the way this stuff was meant to be.
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:33.360
Right.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:39.599
As far as the sagging and the drooping of the brows, sometimes if you put too much in the forehead, you're dropping brows.
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:47.360
But again, it's a much more complex thing that the dropping in the hollowness and the volume and all, it's much more complex than just muscle.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.639
Aging process is way complicated.
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:53.599
There's there's facial bones that are atrophying.
00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.800
Your your eye sockets are getting bigger as we age, your chin projection actually gets you know retruded.
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:09.760
There are facial bone changes that we see over time that tend to add to the aging process.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:25.440
It's not unfortunately, or fortunately, it's not just the muscle, you know, thank God, um, but there are ligaments, there are muscle, there's fat pockets that are very, it's very complex in the in in the in the reason why someone's brow would be dropping.
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:30.000
Yeah, I think it's also like, for example, my background is Asian.
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:44.559
And so I notice that in a lot of my Asian clients or people with just like a deeper set eye or just puppy, it's very difficult to inject because even the little bit of a droop, just like a like half of a millimeter, it's very noticeable.
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:46.559
And then you get that heavy brown look.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.599
And so no matter what I did, I would eject super high.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:52.559
I would inject that like half of you know the normal amount of dose.
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:54.960
It always did it to me and my sisters.
00:47:55.119 --> 00:48:00.000
Like it's just Asian eyes, just it just, it's very difficult to treat.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:09.360
Um, but you know, again, to your point, I think if it's done well and if it's done spaced out and if it's done intelligently, it can work really well for people.
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:16.239
It's when people become reliant on it that it becomes an issue physically and spiritually.
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:18.559
That is when it really becomes the issue.
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:24.639
And this is where we arrived in the next section because this is this is like the most beautiful point.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:32.320
It's like I keep saying this, but like I literally thought we were gonna have the conversation of toxins versus no toxins, because it's just all people are pumping.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:32.960
Bulling.
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:33.679
And it's booming.
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:39.599
And you you really brought me to this perspective of like, it's so much deeper than that.
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:40.159
What's going on?
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:41.199
It's so much deeper.
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:42.159
It's so much deeper.
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:48.559
And so I think that this whole fear-monging thing has gotten really out of control.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:56.960
It was to the point where I was not eating out at restaurants, I wasn't touching receipts, I wasn't doing anything because of the fear being pumped by the holistic.
00:48:58.239 --> 00:48:59.840
I stopped getting my hair dyed.
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:01.119
Thank God I'm back.
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:05.199
But like I was going to the organic-only salons and it just became a prison.
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:14.880
And moving into the next part, because I love what you said about it, really is not about the toxin conversation.
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.119
It's so much deeper and it's so much more profound.
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:28.719
And this is this is really like what I think is so beautiful about what you brought to the table, which is, you know, the question of like, I felt like your concern was much deeper than toxins.
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:36.400
It was like almost like the way I would articulate it is like, what are women really searching for when they are trying to defy aging?
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:47.440
Well, I think when people go to get an injection or a procedure, they're wanting to, you know, and consciously, like they're going to make that appointment to change something about their appearance.
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.679
But I think what they actually want is to just feel at home in their own skin.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:53.039
That's really what they want.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:55.920
They just want to feel confident in who they are.
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.880
No one really wants to go get injections.
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:03.599
They're using it so that they can feel, you know, confident in themselves, right?
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:06.800
No one's like, I can't wait to go inject my face.
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:23.360
And I mean, like maybe maybe on some level they are, but I don't think any, I think some women look at other women who don't have injections, but they but they look healthy and they look radiant and they look smooth and they think, I want to be like that, but I can't, so I have to go get the injection, right?
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:37.519
And so I just think that, you know, you use the injections to fix a wrinkle, but you're not fixing the underlying issues of why that wrinkle is there in the first place.
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:45.039
From a spiritual and moral lens, why do you no longer administer Botox and no longer recommend it?
00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:52.320
It it got to the point where I was just no longer fulfilled for myself, getting in the injun getting the injections for myself.
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:57.039
I did not feel I loved my smooth forehead, but I did not love myself.
00:50:57.199 --> 00:50:58.559
It it didn't help that.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:02.480
It gave me short-term confidence where I would be like, my my forehead is smooth.
00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:03.119
I feel great.
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:07.360
It was sort of a status thing, like I can afford the Botox, you know, I have it.
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:09.679
But it didn't actually make me feel confident.
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:20.000
I still looked at other women who were moving through life so radiantly and they still had wrinkles, but they just had this light about them that I was envious of, that I wanted.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:22.880
And so I sort of just started to reverse engineer that.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:23.840
Like, how can I get that?
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.159
It's injections are not the answer.
00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:28.480
And I was becoming dependent on it too.
00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:29.440
It was like a drug.
00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:35.760
Like I would panic when I, you know, when my forehead would start to move, like, oh, you know, people are gonna see that I'm ugly or whatever.
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:40.400
Ugliness is just when you feel ugly, you have just become disconnected from yourself.
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:52.000
That's really all it is, is that you have started comparing yourself with other people and you start, you start like going down this rabbit hole of like, I need this and I need that, rather than like, who am I?
00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:54.880
What is it that I truly want in this lifetime?
00:51:55.119 --> 00:52:08.719
And so I as I kind of said before, it just got to the point where I was also not fulfilled in injecting people because I was perpetuating them down this path that enabled them to bypass the opportunity for them to actually heal.
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:12.960
And that was one of my struggles working in the hospital too, as a nurse.
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:17.280
Uh, obviously, I'm so grateful for modern medicine and Western medicine.
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:18.800
It can really save lives.
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:22.960
And it's amazing what, you know, I mean, I had a C-section after six days of labor.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:23.920
I needed it, you know.
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.320
Like, I mean, like you need, we need modern medicine.
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:27.679
We need Western medicine.
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:32.880
But I think that the way that we treat people in a hospital does is not conducive with healing.
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:38.320
And my whole ethos, my mission has always been to help bring healing to people.
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:40.400
And so it didn't, it didn't mesh well.
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:47.920
And it kind of, I saw that when I was injecting too, is that I was fixing someone's insecurity and they were becoming dependent on me.
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.480
And that energy just didn't sit well with me.
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:56.719
And I what I really wanted was for people to feel empowered and to feel confident in their own skin.
00:52:56.800 --> 00:53:03.840
And so I just did like a total shift where I just was like, this is I I can't in in good faith do this to people anymore.
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:09.599
I can't perpetuate this and enable this uh dependency uh for them anymore.
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:14.480
And you know, they're not they seem happy on the outside, but they they keep coming back.
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.400
They keep wanting my help, they keep needing it.
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:18.880
I want to enable you to do this yourself.
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:34.320
And so that's when I shifted to learning all about the face, how the muscles actually tell the bones to stay stronger and more lifted, how the fascia, it's not like long bones.
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:37.760
So they're a little bit different on the face.
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:43.840
There's not the they don't have that loading effect that long bone long muscles have on bones.
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:49.199
So if you were to smile excessively and you're not gonna like grow your cheekbone.
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.280
It doesn't have that type of mass building.
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.639
I've actually seen with myself that it's worked very well.
00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:58.559
And I also I just had a conversation with uh an airway dentist.
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:00.079
And we're gonna talk about it.
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:00.880
Okay, and we talked about it.
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:06.079
But that's also talking, that's also talking about the growth of kids.
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:18.639
That's different when you have airway issues and you have your skeletal, facial skeletal is is still in the growth phase, and that's where orthodontists can like put headgears on and make the jaws grow.
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:35.840
But at a certain time where we become adults and the bones are solid, we we just it's it's just not that it's it's not that it doesn't exist, it exists in certain things, like masseter muscles, like you can get a strong jaw from a masseter muscle, but that's because it's from bone to bone, right?
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:40.320
Skin, uh facial expression muscles are from bone to skin.
00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:44.719
So the more you animate, it's gonna be more conducive to lines.
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:50.639
Not saying that lines are bad, it just doesn't have that loading effect like a quad does.
00:54:50.960 --> 00:55:02.079
It may not have the same loading effect that it does with the body, but I have noticed with myself, with um a lot of the people who take my courses and are in my program, like they also notice the same thing.
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:08.320
When you build the muscle, you're building volume and you know, in the face, new scaffolding in a way, right?
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:12.239
Because I think we can all agree that muscles respond to exercise.
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:20.880
Um and there is some kind, even if it's just a little bit, there is a little bit of that bone structure.
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:28.000
I I think that what people don't realize is that the the muscles in the fascia are actually what hold the bones up and it's not the other way around.
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:31.360
Like if you lost all tone in your leg muscles, you would fall, right?
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:32.960
It's your it's the tone in your muscles.
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:34.639
It's like keeping everything lifted.
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:40.079
And then I really think that the health of the fascia is key to all of this.
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.840
Yeah, I think I think you're hitting on some very like important like concepts.
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:48.239
I think muscle, muscle tone is very good, and I think fascia is very important.
00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:57.280
Uh these are the lay, by the way, for fat fascia, the layers between different layers of your skin, between muscles, kind of what envelops the muscle.
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:02.079
And it's important to have healthy fascia.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:17.199
Um I just think again from a from a from an anatomical and a physiological standpoint, I think that the muscles, the the way the muscles are made in the face, they're not these like huge lifting muscles.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:25.840
Like I can't go, I can't go to the gym on my face and get huge zygomatic uh major muscles.
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:29.360
It just no, it's not gonna it's not gonna work the same as like a bicep.
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:29.840
I totally agree.
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:39.519
Mastodor is the only master and the temples, the masticating muscles are a little bit along that line because if you chew gum all the time, your mouth your jaw muscles are gonna get like huge.
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.800
Um if you're a clencher, your jaw muscles are gonna get fake.
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.079
But but I think I you're you're hitting on some really important things.
00:56:46.239 --> 00:57:02.239
I I just don't I don't know if if it's a clinically now, you're saying you saw it in yourself, and I I'm you're gorgeous, so you have nothing to worry about, but I I just don't see it in my in my world where I see that type of stimulation of of bone.
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.039
If anything, we see retraction of bone.
00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:10.719
So that so that's that's where I would respectfully disagree.
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:15.280
Is that, you know, when I was also learning how to how to inject, that was what I was told as well.
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:22.960
Like there, you know, this is how the face ages, the bones um start to shift, they start to fall, they uh the jawline starts to recede.
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:24.159
And I fully believe that.
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:30.400
Like, and that's why I I, you know, wanted to learn injection because I wanted to help people feel, you know, empowered in their face.
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:52.400
But um from what I have learned, from what I have studied, from what uh from the from the face exercise and face yoga world, what we understand and how we understand the face is that building the muscle helps to uh, you know, you're building the the uh the weak muscles because we have muscles that are overworked, and then we have muscles that are underused.
00:57:52.719 --> 00:58:09.039
And so face yoga is really a combination of relaxing muscles that have become super, you know, overworked intense, and then exercising muscles that have become weak that don't have enough, you know, natural tone because we or maybe not smiling all day long.
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:20.559
Um and then uh and then the the to pull to tie in that piece with the fascia again, the fascia is so important because it does, you know, sort of encapsulate like the skin, the bone, like ligaments, everything.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:29.039
And your fascia is very intelligent and your and your fascia also is directly connected with your nervous system.
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:36.719
And and so now we're gonna get into like sort of the, you know, sort of how like the emotional aspect of this ties in.
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:37.840
I know you had a question on that.
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:38.239
Yeah.
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:43.199
I wanna um get your POV on what you were saying.
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:51.679
The reality is women kept coming back and like you you walked away because you felt like you weren't actually solving the deeper wound that was happening.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:52.159
Right.
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:53.920
And so, Dr.
00:58:54.079 --> 00:59:03.920
M, I'm curious for you, like, do you see desperation, insecurity, or distorted self-perception show up in how people ask for treatments?
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.000
I see that every day.
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:07.199
There's no doubt about it.
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:20.719
I mean, there's there's there's insecurities that, you know, men and women come in and you know, they're they're looking for an answer to give them a boost in their step.
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:28.159
I spend a lot of time, a lot of time with patients explaining to them none of this stuff is gonna make you happy.
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:50.000
I spend I I spend about this much time on the actual procedure, and then the rest of what I do in my consultations is sitting around, getting to know the person who I'm injecting, and explaining to them like this is I I don't like to use a the word band-aid because it's not necessarily like that.
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:56.480
Because that ins that that means that there's you know that this I'm just putting a band-aid on something that's really, you know, bad.
00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:03.119
But but from my from a knowing the person and and you know, having happiness, we're talking about happiness.
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:09.039
I've had some of my best results on the most unhappy people.
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:15.519
And I've had terrible results, and they were happier than a pig and poop.
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:20.000
So again, happiness is all it's all coming from within.
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:26.000
I think you have to be uh good inside first, and then the rest of it kind of works out, you know, another way.
01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:36.639
But I don't give I don't I don't treat people because I'm looking to make them happy inside.
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:47.519
That's not it's not you know, they may get a little bit more confident, but happiness is a whole different level of, you know, people are happy, but they are they happy, happy.
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:48.000
I don't know.
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:48.880
I don't know.
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:49.760
It's different.
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:52.239
It's but I'm not but I'm also not a therapist.
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:52.639
Yeah.
01:00:52.880 --> 01:01:01.920
You know, I'm not trying, I'm not trying to dive into certain things that they need to work out.
01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:13.519
I mean, I do because that's the nature of what I do, but you know, if they need to work certain things out for to be happy, that has to be done by professionals who deal with that, you know.
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:13.840
Yeah.
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:21.519
Um so but I would say a lot of people who come in to see me are, you know, they have everyone's got issues.
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:22.559
We all have issues.
01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:23.760
I have issues, you know.
01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:26.480
And you know, it's just the way the world is, you know.
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:27.039
Yeah.
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:32.159
So it's definitely not something I would say, oh, this is gonna take care of all your concerns.
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:32.639
Yeah.
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:33.280
Never.
01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:41.599
Do you do you guys think Botox can be empowering from for one woman and disempowering for another, depending on the energy behind the choice?
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:42.800
Yes, 100%.
01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:44.559
I think if you still do believe it.
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:51.760
Yeah, if it's based out of fear, then it kind of like you said, I don't think that any amount of injection is gonna make someone happy.
01:01:52.159 --> 01:02:01.199
I think that you can use stuff like Botox and filler as a springboard to kind of get you to a point where, okay, now I feel good in my face.
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:04.000
Now let's, now that that's, you know, I'm good right now.
01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:15.119
I know I can't be reliant on this forever because I know of like the lymphatic, you know, effect of that and also the fact that this is not at all working towards uh creating a healthy functioning face.
01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:17.440
It's doing nothing for the muscles or the fascia.
01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:19.679
It's so I know that this is temporary.
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:21.119
Now let me work on me.
01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:24.719
And I think that's where my work and your work can actually be married together.
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:52.719
Because if people are doing some of these, you know, at-home rituals, which is what I uh take people through now, it's like, you know, five to 20 minutes of spending time with yourself, touching your face, touching your skin, getting to know yourself, just being in presence with yourself and using your hands and or using tools or moving your face in a certain way that releases stress, that helps you reach those emotions or at least bring them to the surface so that they can be dealt with.
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:59.119
Because when you stuff those emotions down, deep down, they they sit inside the nervous system.
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:01.280
They eventually settle within the fascia.
01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:04.480
Your nervous system is responsible for how your muscles move.
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:10.320
So it's really not going anywhere, even if you freeze it, though it's still living inside of your body.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:14.719
So you use something like these facial rituals, like how to massage your face.
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.920
You can release some of the tension and the stress that you're holding in your face.
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:20.559
It can relax the muscles so they don't look as tense.
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:25.039
Uh, you can work with the fascia, which helps to hydrate the skin from the inside out.
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:38.400
It also helps to prevent any tugging or pulling because we know fascia is a very sticky substance that when it becomes stiff or dehydrated, it can start to pull on certain things or even lead to deeper creases because that's basically what wrinkles are.
01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:44.719
It's the repetitive movement of the muscles, the fascia becomes sticky, it starts to hold the skin in that tight wrinkle.
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:46.159
So you release that.
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:50.400
You naturally start to work towards building function and health in your face.
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:54.400
You use the injections to give you a little boost, give you a little boost here and there.
01:03:54.559 --> 01:03:56.559
You don't become reliant on it, you don't do it all the time.
01:03:56.719 --> 01:03:58.719
That way you don't have to worry about toxic overload.
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:02.880
You don't have to worry that all of my beauty is being outsourced to another person.
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.840
You're finding the confidence within yourself.
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:17.199
And maybe you use a little injection here or there, you know, just to get you to springboard you to, you know, a point where you're like, really like, I feel, you know, super empowered, but I've been doing it all on my own.
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:38.880
And what I've found that has happened is that when women start doing, you know, working on themselves, they start touching their face, they start getting to know their face, they start breaking up the tension and really understanding how their face moves, they even get to a point where they don't need the injection anymore because we've softened our face through softening ourselves.
01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:45.840
And they also get to the point where they're no longer lured by the intrigue of injections.
01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.000
They're no longer being pulled by that anymore.
01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:50.000
It no longer has a hold on them.
01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:53.119
And they get to the point where they no longer want it anymore.
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:55.360
And that's what has happened with me.
01:04:55.599 --> 01:05:00.719
I know that I have wrinkles, sure, you know, but I am totally at peace with them.
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:01.440
I love them.
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:02.800
They tell the story of my life.
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:05.039
They are the calligraphy of my soul.
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:07.199
They show depth, not decline.
01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:18.639
And I just feel like if we got more women to reshape how they think about beauty and reshape how they think about aging, that they can be really empowered.
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:23.599
And it costs them nothing but learning the but the time it takes to learn some of these poses.
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:30.000
And then once in a while you go get a little lift, you go get a little, you know, you go get a little, you know, frozen if if that still speaks to you.
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:30.400
Yeah.
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:35.440
But there's a way that these two things can work together where you actually get happy patients.
01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:36.000
Yeah.
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:48.960
Yeah, I I think what you're you're definitely touching upon a much more spiritual in like your soul and um almost like a yeah, it's it's it's really nice.
01:05:49.039 --> 01:05:50.159
And you're and you're right.
01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:58.719
I think that you know, if you're the all the stuff that you're talking about is going to make you more whole and happier inside.
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:06.639
Most people don't have that um focus to do what you're saying.
01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:07.679
I'm not saying they can't.
01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:08.239
Right.
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:09.119
They all can.
01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:11.280
Men, women, we all can do it.
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.159
It takes um that's it's a choice.
01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:16.800
It's a choice and you have to dedicate yourself to it.
01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:18.159
It's really what it's called.
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:19.199
It's dedication.
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:21.840
And you can fall off once in a while and get back on it.
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:42.559
And I think, you know, again from from my perspective, because I deal with a lot of like surgical patients and and and women who are, you know, let's just say a little bit older, I I think they can feel what you're talking about, but then they also have this added thing of like, I have like advanced facial aging.
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:47.280
There's I can massage and yoga and do all that, but I got this neck here.
01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:48.800
Yes, and I got this jowl.
01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:55.760
It gets to a point where if you haven't been doing the work and you reach a certain age, it does become it's I mean, you can't.
01:06:55.840 --> 01:07:01.440
Like that is the limitation of these facial exercises, is that young you have to start young.
01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:06.000
You have to, you don't have to do it every day, but you do have to have a dedicated practice.
01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:07.920
And it, you know, and why not?
01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:13.519
Like it's a moving meditation, it's a way of regulating the nervous system and slowing down at the same time you're taking care of your face.
01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:13.920
Why not?
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:14.559
But I agree.
01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:21.760
You get to a certain age where these things have settled into the face, you know, the structures have changed, it becomes a lot more difficult.
01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:30.639
But like if someone were like 60 and they they discovered, you know, uh face yoga and face exercise, and they're like, I really believe in this, I want to do it.
01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:42.159
What I would say to them is uh, you know, start your practice, but it's not gonna do what you, you know, what your 20-year-old self, you're not gonna see the same results as your 20-year-old self would be.
01:07:42.239 --> 01:07:45.119
So if you're considering a facelift, you go get the facelift.
01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:45.440
Okay.
01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:47.679
You go, you go and you lift the face.
01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:50.079
Keep in mind that it's purely cosmetic, right?
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:52.400
It's not doing anything for the muscle tone.
01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:55.840
It's not doing anything for releasing any of the tension in the fascia.
01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:00.480
So you use that again as a springboard and then you start working on your face.
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:03.679
You've gotten your face to the point where you're like, okay, I'm happy where it is.
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.639
Now you can start working with your face and keep it healthy and maintain the results.
01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:15.519
And that's the key thing is that people can use these exercises and these modalities to maintain the result.
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:24.960
And I think it's really important because after a surgical procedure, the fascia and the skin, it starts to tighten around where those uh uh, you know, surgical incisions are.
01:08:25.119 --> 01:08:26.560
It starts to become fibrotic.
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:31.279
Fibrosis is really what leads to a lot of the sagging because the tissue is no longer healthy and alive.
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:37.039
You start incorporating some of these practices with your surgical procedure, you're gonna see better results.
01:08:37.119 --> 01:08:38.000
It's gonna last longer.
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:42.560
We've actually uh employed a lymphatic drainage masseuse.
01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:44.560
After the surgical, yeah.
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:45.279
Day one.
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:49.760
They come in for post-op day one, they start getting some light massaging, light lymphatic drainage.
01:08:50.239 --> 01:08:53.760
It's completely changed post-op recovery, and then they continue on.
01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:56.479
They just stay on and they continue doing massages with that.
01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:57.760
And how empowering do they feel?
01:08:58.079 --> 01:08:58.720
Because they feel great.
01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:01.600
Yeah, they feel amazing because they because they feel like they're participating.
01:09:02.479 --> 01:09:03.680
They're part of the process.
01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:04.000
Yeah.
01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:06.399
And and then that feels very empowering for them.
01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:18.479
And and that light that lives inside you when you feel like look at what I've done for myself, it's a completely different feeling than I went and ha and transacted this guy to, you know, do something for my face.
01:09:18.560 --> 01:09:22.239
And yeah, I mean, it's a different energy, it's a different way of moving through life.
01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:26.720
It's completely different, but but synergistically at the same time, they can work together.
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:27.199
Yes.
01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:28.560
They can work together very well.
01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:36.000
So I mean, the spiritual part, yeah, in a perfect world, would everybody be thinking about this in that way?
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:37.600
It would be great.
01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:40.560
But yeah, I do feel like it is a choice.
01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:52.560
And if it was more normalized, that there are choices and that these things could be I think people just need to know that there's more than just injections because they they come to rely on it and they think that's the only way.
01:09:52.640 --> 01:09:59.039
And I think people just need to know that you have options here and you need to know the limitations of both.
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:07.279
You need to know what this can and can't do, but you also need to know that like just relying on this is not the is not the answer either.
01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:22.399
So you know, I I'm that's why I'm really excited to have this conversation because I feel like people need to know that we need to bring awareness so that people can feel the empowerment at the same time, do things for their beauty regimen that's aligned with their values and their goals.
01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:25.359
I never even heard of facial yoga until I got asked to do this.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:25.680
Yeah.
01:10:25.840 --> 01:10:26.880
And then I went into a deep dive.
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:29.359
Then I did a deep dive.
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:29.760
Yeah.
01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:31.760
And then a deep dive, and I was like, holy cow.
01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:33.039
It's insane.
01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:37.840
What do you guys think is at the root of why society has such a hard time with aging?
01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:39.279
Because that's the real conversation.
01:10:39.359 --> 01:10:41.279
Like that's like the real meat and potatoes of my respect.
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:42.319
Society now.
01:10:42.399 --> 01:10:44.720
This has been since the beginning of time.
01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:45.039
Yeah.
01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:50.720
The Egyptians were using makeup and they were doing tattoos and putting fake teeth with bones together.
01:10:51.359 --> 01:10:53.680
Youth and beauty is a currency, no matter for sure.
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:54.800
It's a currency.
01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:56.640
So people want to hold on to that.
01:10:56.880 --> 01:11:06.880
I think that we are also, as a society, uh, you know, and our are just culture and really just humanity, uh aging is associated with dying.
01:11:07.039 --> 01:11:07.199
Yeah.
01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:07.600
Right.
01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:18.000
And so in a way, we are, it's like we start to see that cycle start to turn and we start to feel like, oh, we're going down that path now where we're, you know, we're going towards that, right?
01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:22.800
But what people need to understand is that everything has a life cycle.
01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:25.359
Everything has to go through a life cycle.
01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:27.439
And I think people are afraid of death.
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:34.960
And I think when people just kind of zoom out, and and you do have to have some kind of spiritual awareness to really see it this way.
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:51.520
But if you if you start to recognize that the point of life is not to just be beautiful, when you realize that the point of life, point of life is to live, to laugh, to learn, to evolve, to grow, it it changes your perspective.
01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:53.279
It changes how you view things.
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:54.319
Earth's cool.
01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:56.159
And yeah, right.
01:11:56.319 --> 01:11:58.640
And so it it's, and that's exactly what it is.
01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:07.439
It's like our ultimate aim is to recognize our divine self through healing our human experience.
01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:12.000
And so that's why we have to have some of these deep-seated emotions.
01:12:12.159 --> 01:12:18.319
These are like guides to the depth of our soul where we can learn lessons, integrate their wisdom.
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:34.159
And so that's that's another reason why I kind of stepped away, is that I felt like it was just erasing that for people and enabling people to just bypass rather than really understanding who they are, what they want out of this lifetime.
01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:39.359
For me, that was peace and just being comfortable in my own skin.
01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:57.119
And so when I, once I recognized that, and once I really decided to like call in my divine self to like be the guide for me and sort of dictate, like, you know, like how I manage my human experience of my fears and my insecurities and my anxiety, which I still have, it it completely changed the conversation.
01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:01.279
And so now I look at aging as like I'm excited to age.
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:02.880
I'm excited to get to that point.
01:13:03.039 --> 01:13:14.399
I I can't wait to be a wrinkly old woman and like comfort myself and be like, look at all that you did, look at all that you learned, look at how much you've grown, like, look at the relationships that you have.
01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:15.600
Like you built this.
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:29.359
And once you really see like your own, like when you see yourself in that divine light and you can recognize it, nothing can harm you, nothing can break you, nothing can penetrate you, no wrinkle can upset you.
01:13:29.520 --> 01:13:33.600
It just doesn't happen anymore when you can kind of get to that point.
01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:40.399
And so I mean, that's another reason why I'm so passionate is because I see women tearing themselves apart over these wrinkles.
01:13:40.479 --> 01:13:47.439
And first of all, I mean, I know this is not where this conversation was meant to go, but wrinkles are like not what age you at all.
01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:49.439
I mean, there's like a whole other side of that.
01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:55.520
I mean, in my opinion, especially from your perspective, I think facial structure is way more important than wrinkles.
01:13:55.600 --> 01:14:05.920
Like the way a person's face is is, you know, constructed and the and the shape, and that is way more, you know, it it it indicates so much more about someone's age than just wrinkles.
01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:12.800
Someone could, you know, have a face full of wrinkles, but if their structure is good, they I mean, they don't look as old, you know, let's be honest.
01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:14.239
But it's also just the energy.
01:14:14.319 --> 01:14:19.039
It's like the frequency that you hold that really is what I think what people are after.
01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:19.439
Yeah.
01:14:19.760 --> 01:14:30.560
And I think that when, you know, people are afraid of aging and they're afraid of the decline, but they don't realize the opportunity that they have with that to grow and to evolve internally.
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:32.319
Yeah.
01:14:32.560 --> 01:14:35.439
And uh there's always ayahuasca if you haven't tapped into all this.
01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:36.640
Yeah, exactly.
01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:38.079
Um, yeah.
01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:42.479
I mean that's I think at the deepest core of that.
01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:45.520
And I'm sure you would hope people would do that inner work too.
01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:54.319
I I don't I don't there's there's you can't argue having a spirituality and a deeper meaning of life, and I think those are all important, you know, aspects.
01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:58.720
Everyone has different levels of what they can even go there.
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:03.199
You know, some people don't even get it, they they're they're like not there.
01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:03.920
Yeah.
01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:06.399
And it'd be nice to see more people there.
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.039
Yeah, I think people are just kind of afraid of themselves.
01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:18.000
Yeah, and we are going through what my last interview was about the Great Awakening that's happening right now with humanity, with with consciousness.
01:15:18.159 --> 01:15:23.920
It's a lot of what my mission is here to bring this awareness and the duality of me as I live in both worlds.
01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:28.880
You know, I sat with a lot of plot medicine and I have also, you know, and there's room for that.
01:15:28.960 --> 01:15:30.560
And then you can have you can have it.
01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:34.000
Yeah, you can't you're not you shouldn't be defined by one thing or the other.
01:15:34.319 --> 01:15:34.479
Yeah.
01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:38.880
You know, just because um, you know, I I inject doesn't mean I'm not spiritual.
01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:40.399
It doesn't matter.
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:40.720
Right.
01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:41.359
Exactly.
01:15:42.000 --> 01:16:01.199
I think that's, you know, for me, that's what this conversation was about is awareness, options, looking deeper, thinking deeper, choosing, like I would say, like in a nutshell, what I got from this as the takeaway that I hope, you know, the viewers hear is choose from love, not from fear.
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:07.760
And really that's yeah, the most important thing I I think in this conversation, I would say.
01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:10.800
Um what do you guys both hope women take away from this conversation?
01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:14.399
I guess men too, if you're out there.
01:16:14.960 --> 01:16:26.399
I think I think that we haven't really been fully taught or guided in how to age well uh up until like very recently.
01:16:26.479 --> 01:16:29.520
I don't even think it's spread um, you know, a lot.
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:35.680
And I hope that my hope is that especially women, because that's really the target.
01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:54.560
I mean men too, but I think I hope that women will take away from this that they start to look at not just what's available and and what you know they can they can just, you know, go and like transact someone to to do for them, but really look at what it is that they want for themselves and what they want out of life.
01:16:54.880 --> 01:17:03.359
And I think once you can answer that question, then you can answer the next question, which is so is this what I choose for myself?
01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:19.520
Because if your if your answer is, I want to look ageless and beautiful and this is and I will do anything to have that, and I, you know, and I just want to feel my like my energy, then you need to, you know, maybe you do need to go down the route of of getting injections or maybe a surgical procedure.
01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:28.159
But if you're deep down, I think if your mission is just to be at peace with yourself, that's not gonna do it.
01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:29.439
It it's not.
01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:42.239
And so I think people I would hope that women take from this conversation that you do have options and there's a way to be guided in how to age beautifully and gracefully, and it's not just following the formula that we've been told the last 10 years.
01:17:47.359 --> 01:18:00.079
I would like for the women and men who are watching to take away from this that there are things that you can do to give you that wholeness and that spirituality and knowing what you want out of life.
01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:08.319
But it's okay if you do want your neck lifted or if you want your eyes to be not so it's okay to do that too.
01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:09.760
There is no judgment.
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:11.600
There should be no judgment either way.
01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:11.840
Yeah.
01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:14.319
If you choose this is all about choice, right?
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:16.239
Elective means it's a choice.
01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:35.279
So if you choose to want to do something that to make yourself look better, maybe you've already gotten to the where you're talking about and you've found your purpose and you've found your your your your your rock and the meaning of life, yet you look in the mirror and you're like, oh, this neck is killing me.
01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:36.479
I I can't look at it.
01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:38.319
I feel great, but I don't want to be able to do that.
01:18:38.479 --> 01:18:40.399
But if I could just fix this one thing, right?
01:18:40.800 --> 01:18:40.880
Yeah.
01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:49.439
And and maybe if you maybe if you ascend to the highest level of you know, God, maybe that won't bother you.
01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:49.840
Yeah.
01:18:50.079 --> 01:18:55.119
But as mere mortal humans, yeah, that you know, we have in those insecurities.
01:18:55.199 --> 01:19:01.199
So even though you found your happiness and you found your purpose and all of that, it's okay to have a procedure.
01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:02.239
100%.
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:08.239
Well, where can the people find you if they're interested in both of your services?
01:19:08.560 --> 01:19:10.720
A little bit about beauty shamans and where people can find you.
01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:13.359
So uh beautyshamans.com is my main website.
01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:26.000
I have um uh through that portal, we're actually going through a rebrand right now, but we have the Skin Within Studio, which is where I teach and I guide people through ways to move and touch their face that empowers them.
01:19:26.159 --> 01:19:49.199
Um, and we'd learn, you know, things like face yoga, facial exercise, fascia release, lymphatic drainage, reflexology, nervous system reset, all that type of stuff so that they have sort of a moving meditation uh ritual that they can do daily that just kind of brings them grounded, it brings them back to their center and helps them to ground their energy and really just discover the root of you know why things are changing on their face.
01:19:49.359 --> 01:19:54.239
And then we also have uh skincare tools, uh, a lot of resources on my website.
01:19:54.319 --> 01:20:02.079
And then you can find me on Instagram at Beauty Shamans where I do a lot of just free educational videos where I show people how to move and touch their face.
01:20:02.720 --> 01:20:03.359
Amazing.
01:20:03.680 --> 01:20:11.199
Uh I have two offices located in New York City on 9th between university and 5th, and then also in Shrewsbury, New Jersey.
01:20:11.279 --> 01:20:13.039
It's called Advanced Facial Surgery.
01:20:13.279 --> 01:20:16.800
Um on Instagram, I'm Dr.
01:20:16.880 --> 01:20:18.079
Mattelakakis.
01:20:18.239 --> 01:20:20.960
Some people call me bearded surgeon, as you can tell.
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:48.800
Um and this has been really enlightening to me, and I will tell you that I'm going to incorporate or I'm gonna ask you to help me incorporate a post-surgical, maybe even pre-surgical, um program for patients who are thinking about doing surgery or even having surgery and what they can do to be a part of that treatment plan.
01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:57.039
I think that's I think it's for me, I've always been like outside the box in in the sense of like treatments and stuff like that.
01:20:57.119 --> 01:20:59.840
So I think that this is right down my right down my alley.
01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:00.800
I would love to.
01:21:00.880 --> 01:21:02.079
That would be so amazing.
01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:04.319
Work together would be great.
01:21:05.279 --> 01:21:07.439
And this is why I do what I do.
01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:18.399
I love to bridge perspectives and help people think deeper and show people that it's okay to be all and everything, the spiritual and into aesthetics.
01:21:18.640 --> 01:21:26.159
If you are looking for what is next for your mental health, physical health, spiritual health, that is exactly what I do with Conscious Concierge.
01:21:26.399 --> 01:21:30.880
Help you figure out who is the next person, provider, retreat, medicine, experience.
01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:35.600
If you are feeling just lost in the sauce in the wellness and healing world.
01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:41.199
And um, yeah, you can catch us on conscious conversations for these thought-provoking conversations.
01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:43.840
Thank you guys for really thanks so much.
01:21:43.920 --> 01:21:44.159
Yeah.
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:44.960
Great to meet you.
01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:46.479
So amazing to meet you.
01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:47.600
This was so fun.
01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:48.880
This was so great.
01:21:49.039 --> 01:21:51.920
I think it's really like we finally got to the momentum where it like all.