Case 339: Waco (Part 3/3)

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please see the show notes for this episode on your
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app or on our website. 45-year-old FBI negotiator Byron Sage
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was mortified A Vietnam War veteran who had been employed
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by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for almost 25 years,
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he had a wealth of experience when it came to
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negotiating hostage situations. He'd worked in fugitive extortion and organised
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crime investigations and knew how to navigate a crisis. Sage
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had spent hours trying to coax David Koresh and his
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followers from their compounds. and had helped put together a
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surrender plan that looked set to end the disastrous siege
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that had started under the ATF less than three days earlier.
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By the afternoon of Tuesday March 2 1993, both the
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Branch Davidians and the FBI negotiators were anticipating a peaceful
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and imminent resolution, with David Koresh promising that everyone inside
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the compound would surrender in exchange for his message being
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broadcast on a national television station. But when Byron Sage
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called into Mount Carmel just before 6pm to find out
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what was taking so long, he was met with some
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devastating news. Koresh's right-hand man, Steve Schneider, informed Sage that
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David Koresh had changed his mind.
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Can I just read Revelation 18 to you? In just
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a minute. Everything's ready to go right now. But all
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of a sudden, I mean, he started praying.
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He gave us his word. I know that.
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I'm aware of that.
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That after the message was read.
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Yes, but what if there is a higher power than
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you and I that speaks to an individual?
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What do you do? That's the question.
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This is why he said, be aware of who you're
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dealing with.
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Just remember that David told the world.
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I understand that.
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That he was coming out.
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Can I read Revelation 18 to you?
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Steve, I want him to come out.
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I understand.
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When does he plan to come out?
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He said his God says that he is to wait.
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How long?
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Look, I know in this world you don't believe that
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there is a supernatural power that speaks audibly to a person.
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Is David a man of his word?
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He always has been.
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What does trust mean to you?
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Exactly what it means to you.
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I got commanders and they are losing trust in me.
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Steve repeatedly reiterated that Koresh was awaiting further instruction from
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God and nothing would happen until those instructions arrived. Embarrassed
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and bitterly disappointed, Byron Sage had to return to his
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commanders with the news that no one would be leaving
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Mount Carmel that night. The anger the FBI leaders felt
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about David Koresh's last minute change of mind was reflected
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in the crackdown that followed. the head of the agency's
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hostage rescue team informed the siege commander, quote, it's time
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to teach him a lesson. There was debate amongst the
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various FBI leaders as to how to proceed from here.
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They didn't all see the situation eye to eye, with
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different units arguing for different approaches. The Hostage Rescue Team,
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or HRT, was an elite tactical unit trained to take action.
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Their instincts were typically to rush in and get a
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situation under control. As one HRT member told journalists from
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PBS's Frontline program, Our crime's been committed, and I'm talking
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murder charges. You've got to do something about it. You
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cannot just let those people sit. The HRT's role would
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be to surround and secure a scene before going in
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and using force if necessary. This style led to them
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sometimes being called ninjas. At Mount Carmel, they took up
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multiple positions from all sides, situating themselves about 300 yards
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or 275 metres from the building. In contrast, the FBI's
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team of negotiators were not working directly at the scene.
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Their headquarters were in an aeroplane hangar five and a
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half miles away and their approach was very different from
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the HRT's. Focused on building trust with subjects through talk
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and a steady pace, their goal was to convince the
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Branch Davidians to come out, rather than rushing in to
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take them. They couldn't actually see what was going on
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inside the compound and would rely on reports shared by
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the Branch Davidians and their colleagues instead. Negotiator Gary Nassner
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was concerned when he overheard Dick Rogers, the head of
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the HRT, telling siege commander Jeff Jamar that it was
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time to teach David Koresh a lesson. Rogers wanted to
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send his team in, stating, My people can get in
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and secure that place in 15 minutes. Gary Nesner argued
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against this, pointing out that Koresh had still been releasing
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women and children overnight. Perhaps he might continue to release more,
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even if he wasn't ready to surrender himself. the negotiators
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felt that storming in with force would undermine the delicate
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level of trust they'd worked to build with Koresh and
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his followers. Ultimately, siege commander Jeff Jamar sided with the negotiators,
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agreeing it was too soon to send in the HRT.
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Jamar was acting as special agent in charge of operations
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in accordance with FBI procedure. According to the Bureau's policies,
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when a major event like Waco took place, it would
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be run by the highest-ranking local agent. Jeff Jamar was
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that agent at the nearby office in San Antonio. Although
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he believed that it was too soon to cease negotiations
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with Koresh, Jamar was also inclined to agree with Dick
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Rogers that the religious leader needed to be taught a lesson.
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He ordered that some of the Bradley armoured vehicles that
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had been set up around the perimeter of Mount Carmel
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be moved closer to the building. This would function as
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a visible reminder of the FBI's presence and power at
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the scene. To further this image of greater control, the
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FBI also built fake sniper positions, while also having genuine
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snipers set up at less visible locations. Inside Mount Carmel,
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some of the Branch Davidians were just as disappointed and
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confused by David Koresh's abrupt change of mind as the
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FBI agents. There had been an impromptu celebration the night before,
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with members raiding the refrigerator and pouring alcoholic beverages. They
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toasted the impending end to the siege with stale cake
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and whiskey and sang songs to celebrate. David Koresh hadn't
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joined in as he'd been confined upstairs with his shooting injury.
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At some point, Steve Schneider had told everyone to stop celebrating, adding,
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David's mad with you guys. Why are you letting down
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the message? When news came late the following day that
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they wouldn't be leaving after all, some Branch Davidians wondered
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if their sinful behaviour the previous night was to blame.
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David Thibodeau later wrote in his memoir that he believed
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Koresh's explanation that God had told him to wait, as
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he knew Koresh to be entirely sincere in his beliefs.
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But David knew that the change of plans would not
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go down well with the federal authorities. The Branch Davidians
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noticed when the FBI moved the Bradley tanks closer to
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their home and then used them to crush two outbuildings
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on the property. They also rammed into a station wagon
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that had been left behind by a journalist from the
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Waco Tribune-Herald. These actions were undoubtedly intimidating and spokespeople inside
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the compound protested about them to negotiators over the phone.
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I heard some crunching or something. I looked out the
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window and I see one of your tanks ran over
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a guard shack. I thought that was pretty cute, Steve
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Schneider said.
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What now?
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A negotiator replied in shock. You're kidding. I know they've
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been ordered not to go in there. The FBI had
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cut off the Branch Davidian's phone lines to all but
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their negotiators, so those inside the compound had no way
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of contacting the outside world. They wanted to go to
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the media to share their story, but had no way
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of doing so, nor were the media permitted near them.
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Reporters from across the country and even overseas had flocked
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to Waco after the botched ATF raid led to extensive bloodshed,
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prompting the FBI to set up a designated press area
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two miles from Mount Carmel. It was next to a
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roadblock in the middle of a farm-to-market road. The compound
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could be glimpsed in the distance, but journalists weren't permitted
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any closer than that. Beginning on Wednesday March 3, the
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FBI held daily press conferences to update both the media
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and the public on the siege. There wasn't much to
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report aside from the fact that negotiators were still trying
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to convince David Koresh to surrender without success. Officials repeatedly
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referred to the Branch Davidians as a cult, a word
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that held loaded significance and called to mind previous tragedies.
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such as the Manson family murders in 1969 and the
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Jonestown massacre in 1978, covered in episode 60 of Case File. Moreover,
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the Branch Davidians were described as militant religious zealots who
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were dangerous to the public. The Branch Davidians watched and
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listened to these press conferences via their televisions and radios
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inside Mount Carmel. With little else to go on and
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unable to speak to the subjects of the siege themselves,
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journalists took to wandering around the city of Waco. They
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chatted to locals to see if anyone had personal anecdotes
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about the so-called cult currently holed up in their compound.
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People they spoke to said they found the group a
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bit strange, but not scary. They definitely weren't considered dangerous. Occasionally,
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reporters and photographers tried to sneak closer to Mount Carmel
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to see what was happening. When caught doing so, they
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were arrested and handcuffed. In one call with negotiators, Steve
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Schneider voiced his distress at the situation, stating, The press
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are so far back, you guys could come and blow
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us away and give any story you wanted. As the
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days went by, the roadside press area grew and was
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dubbed Media City. There were rows and rows of TV
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trucks lining both sides of the road. Reporters set up
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tents and barbecue grills while they waited for something to happen.
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Journalist Carlton Stowers later told author Jeff Gwynne, quote, All
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around Mount Carmel, there were so many agents and army
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guys and negotiators and equipment and tanks and everything, that
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it looked like our government was going to war with
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another country. Soon, members of the public began showing up
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at a hill just outside Media City to join the
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growing circus. Most were protesters demonstrating solidarity with the Branch Davidians,
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while others saw a business opportunity. They sold t-shirts and
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homemade souvenirs like coffee cups, baseball hats and postcards emblazoned
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with anti- or pro-government messages and dark jokes. One read,
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Mount Carmel erupts, a message from God, the sinful episode.
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Another read, Hey Vern, weird arsehole, come out. The first
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letter of each of the last four words was capitalised
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to spell out Waco. One individual who showed up in
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support of the Branch Davidians was a 24-year-old Army veteran
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named Timothy McVeigh, who'd driven over from Michigan. He'd already
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been angered by the notorious Ruby Ridge standoff less than
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a year earlier and saw the Waco siege as another
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example of government overreach and oppression. Sitting on the hood
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of his car, McVeigh sold bumper stickers with messages such as,
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Ban guns, make the streets safe for a government takeover,
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and fear the government that fears your gun. Meanwhile, FBI
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negotiators continued their efforts with David Koresh. Often, their calls
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with him turned into religious sermons, with Koresh preaching for
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up to an hour at a time about God's plans
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for the end of the world, and the unlocking of
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the seven seals. Some of the negotiators took to calling
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these one-sided conversations Bible Babble. They interjected and tried to
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return Koresh's focus to the more practical and immediate matters
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at hand. When pressed as to when he might emerge
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with his followers, Koresh.
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Replied,''.
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I' m dealing with my father now, not your systematic, bureaucratic
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system of government.'' The negotiators expressed their concerns about Koresh's
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bullet wounds and general health. Koresh suspected that he'd lost
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about three pints of blood, but was doing alright. He
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was being treated by one of the Branch Davidians, who
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was a nurse. She reported that he was doing well,
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his temperature was normal, and his complexion was good. The
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other Branch Davidians who'd sustained injuries in the botched raid
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were also doing fine. Despite Koresh's refusal to leave Mount Carmel,
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he did agree to send out a couple more children.
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A 12-year-old boy left the compound on Wednesday March 3
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and an 11-year-old boy followed the next day. By the
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end of the siege's fifth day, 21 children in total
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had been released, ranging in age from 5 months old
240
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to 12 years. Their parents had pinned notes to their
241
00:17:13.529 --> 00:17:16.910
clothing with instructions about relatives or friends who should be
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called to take custody of them. All of these children
243
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were assessed at a local child protective services facility. Joyce Sparks,
244
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:31.019
who had previously investigated the Branch Davidians after allegations of
245
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child abuse were made, noted, They are in remarkably good
246
00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:41.099
psychological condition considering what they've gone through. They appear very healthy,
247
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are well behaved and well educated. None of them appear
248
00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:51.240
to have been in any way abused or neglected. However,
249
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an associate professor of psychology and behavioural sciences disagreed somewhat.
250
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He would later testify at Congress, quote, They believed that
251
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they would all be attacked. and that the outsiders would
252
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kill everyone in the compound and that Koresh would come
253
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back and kill the bad guys, uniting everyone in heaven.
254
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All of the young girls were being prepared to be
255
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David's wives. One of the older girls expressed distress, now
256
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that she had been released from the compound, that she
257
00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:26.430
would not be able to be picked by David as
258
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one of his brides. On Tuesday March 9, a week
259
00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:35.150
and a half after the siege began, The Texas Department
260
00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:39.750
of Protective and Regulatory Services officially stripped the children's parents
261
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of custody rights. To regain custody, they would have to
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pass state tests. Friday March 5 began positively, with Koresh
263
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.890
sending out a 9-year-old girl. It seemed that the negotiators
264
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were making slow but steady progress. However, Concerns arose when
265
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authorities read the note the girl's mother had pinned to
266
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her jacket. It was addressed to the girl's older sister
267
00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:15.019
and explained that by the time she read the message,
268
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the mother would be dead. She added that once all
269
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of the children were out, the adults would die. This
270
00:19:24.309 --> 00:19:29.319
again raised concerns about a possible mass suicide. Whenever the
271
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:33.660
FBI queried David Koresh or Steve Schneider about this possibility,
272
00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:40.319
they reassured them there was no such plan. Koresh's conversations
273
00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:44.930
with the FBI sometimes took on a violent tone. At
274
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one point, he told negotiators that he and his followers
275
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had been planning for a confrontation once. the government since 1985.
276
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He threatened to blow the FBI's tanks to pieces. Still
277
00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.819
trying to build a rapport with Koresh, the FBI offered
278
00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:04.319
to send in a suture kit so his wounds could
279
00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:07.430
be treated. as well as photos and videos of the
280
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children who'd left the compound to prove they were doing well.
281
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Koresh accepted this offer. These items were delivered to the
282
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.779
bullet-riddled front doors of Mount Carmel, along with a video
283
00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:24.440
camera so the Branch Davidians could record videos of their own.
284
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.160
The negotiators hoped that this might provide a decent window
285
00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:31.160
into life inside the compound.
286
00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:33.579
And it did.
287
00:20:35.009 --> 00:20:38.430
Steve Schneider filmed the injured Koresh seated on the floor
288
00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:41.710
with his back pressed against a wall. He wore a
289
00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:45.829
white tank top and grey tracksuit pants. His electric guitar
290
00:20:45.869 --> 00:20:48.490
was propped up next to him and children could be
291
00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:53.640
heard playing in the background. Steve began by asking Koresh
292
00:20:53.779 --> 00:20:57.960
if there was anything he'd like to say. Koresh responded.
293
00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:01.799
We just thought we'd kind of break the ice and
294
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:05.900
allow people to see just exactly... You know, what kind
295
00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:06.980
of people we have here.
296
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I'd start off first of all with my oldest son.
297
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:15.349
His name is Cyrus. Come sit over here, son.
298
00:21:16.369 --> 00:21:20.569
Koresh beckoned his seven-year-old son, Cyrus, to sit down next
299
00:21:20.589 --> 00:21:25.190
to him. Cyrus had shoulder-length blonde hair and waved at
300
00:21:25.230 --> 00:21:29.740
the camera with a shy smile. One by one, Koresh
301
00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:33.990
had other children sit with him. He introduced them and
302
00:21:34.049 --> 00:21:37.910
encouraged them to share some facts about themselves, sing their
303
00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:42.250
ABCs and say hello to their Branch Davidian friends outside.
304
00:21:43.630 --> 00:21:46.920
He also asked them questions about their love of God.
305
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.359
The FBI negotiators who subsequently received these tapes scoured them
306
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.740
for intelligence on how everyone inside was doing. They all
307
00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:03.809
looked clean, healthy and comfortable enough. Koresh occasionally closed his
308
00:22:04.009 --> 00:22:07.430
eyes in apparent discomfort from his injuries, but did not
309
00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:12.089
appear to be suffering. The FBI knew the Branch Davidians
310
00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:15.210
were capable of holding up inside the compound for months.
311
00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:20.220
For a long time, they'd been stockpiling thousands of military-style
312
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.640
ready-to-eat meals and canned goods. They also had their own
313
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.400
well with an electric pump providing a limitless water supply
314
00:22:28.460 --> 00:22:32.200
that couldn't be shut off. If the group had everything
315
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:36.059
they needed to survive, it was growing increasingly difficult to
316
00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:40.890
find a way to draw them out. The Branch Davidians
317
00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:44.829
remained concerned about the tanks surrounding the property and their
318
00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:49.069
inability to communicate with the media. The next couple of
319
00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:53.480
days continued with both Koresh and Steve Schneider spending hours
320
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:58.190
and hours talking with the FBI. Steve voiced his concerns
321
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.079
that the FBI might kill them all and burn down
322
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:06.299
the entire compound. Koresh mostly preached, though he also offered
323
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:08.799
to send out another child if he could speak to
324
00:23:08.859 --> 00:23:13.920
Robert Rodriguez, the undercover ATF agent who'd infiltrated the Branch Davidians.
325
00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:18.799
When this wasn't permitted, Koresh reneged on his offer to
326
00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:24.009
release anyone else. A week into the siege, the Branch
327
00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:27.319
Davidians requested to have milk sent in for the children,
328
00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:31.559
which the FBI suggested could be traded for more releases.
329
00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:38.859
Koresh flatly refused this, stating, You're dealing with my biological
330
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:43.289
children now. None of the children who had been sent
331
00:23:43.430 --> 00:23:46.670
out were his, and he wouldn't entertain the idea of
332
00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:51.680
releasing his own sons or daughters. the FBI delivered the
333
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:56.920
milk anyway. The cartons had tiny listening devices implanted into
334
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.380
the styrofoam so that authorities could listen in on some
335
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:08.059
of the conversations inside the compound. The Branch Davidians were
336
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.319
such a cohesive group that the FBI was finding it
337
00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.710
hard to break through. It wasn't like negotiating with armed
338
00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:21.059
robbers or terrorists who were holding hostages captive. Instead, it
339
00:24:21.099 --> 00:24:24.759
was the FBI against all of the residents inside who
340
00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:28.819
saw them as the enemy. Although they were speaking with
341
00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:33.230
various people inside the compound, the two individuals the negotiators
342
00:24:33.289 --> 00:24:39.089
spoke to most frequently were Koresh and Steve Schneider. They
343
00:24:39.130 --> 00:24:42.069
decided to try driving a wedge between the two friends.
344
00:24:42.650 --> 00:24:44.930
Perhaps if there was a chink in the armour, it
345
00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:48.690
would be easier to achieve their missions. In the early
346
00:24:48.769 --> 00:24:53.609
morning hours of Tuesday March 9, FBI negotiators asked Steve
347
00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:56.769
Schneider if it was true that his wife, Judy, had
348
00:24:56.809 --> 00:25:00.430
a child with Koresh and was considered one of his brides.
349
00:25:01.950 --> 00:25:05.829
They challenged Steve about this, clearly trying to provoke him
350
00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:10.690
by asking, Don't you miss the way it was? But
351
00:25:10.769 --> 00:25:16.089
Steve merely reiterated his loyalty to Koresh and replied, It's
352
00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:22.210
better than it was. With that attempt failing, siege commander
353
00:25:22.289 --> 00:25:25.369
Jeff Jamar decided they needed to make life inside the
354
00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:30.839
compound less bearable. At 2.15am on the 10th day of
355
00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:36.000
the siege, they cut off its electricity. In the PBS
356
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:42.369
documentary Waco, The Inside Story, Jeff Jamar said, There's the
357
00:25:42.380 --> 00:25:45.529
10-day rule. Usually these things are over in 10 days.
358
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.900
That night, it was going to be 20 degrees, and
359
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.150
the thought process was, if we're going to be cold
360
00:25:53.190 --> 00:25:56.190
in the dark, let them be cold in the dark too.
361
00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:02.769
Negotiators were less enthusiastic about this decision, aware that it
362
00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:08.289
could set back the delicate negotiations process by days. Sure enough,
363
00:26:08.710 --> 00:26:11.630
David Koresh refused to come to the phone until the
364
00:26:11.650 --> 00:26:16.049
power was restored. it was switched back on later that
365
00:26:16.150 --> 00:26:20.490
same morning. This was just the beginning of the power
366
00:26:20.529 --> 00:26:24.210
being switched off and turned back on at the FBI's whim.
367
00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:31.079
Inside Mount Carmel, tempers were beginning to fray. Those who
368
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:35.880
were injured were suffering even more than the others. David Koresh,
369
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:39.700
whose injuries were the worst, was becoming prone to mood swings.
370
00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:44.829
Judy Schneider's right forefinger had been shot during the ATF
371
00:26:44.849 --> 00:26:48.069
raid and by this stage had swollen to twice its
372
00:26:48.210 --> 00:26:52.869
usual size. She was offered medical assistance by the FBI
373
00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:58.339
but refused to come out. At 3.40 that afternoon, some
374
00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:01.420
Branch Davidians climbed up to the window of the watchtower
375
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:06.460
upstairs and unfurled a homemade banner outside. Written on a
376
00:27:06.500 --> 00:27:11.480
bedsheet in large black letters were the words... God help us.
377
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:20.619
We want the press. Negotiators received some positive news on
378
00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:24.039
Friday March 12 when they learnt that a Branch Davidian
379
00:27:24.099 --> 00:27:28.460
named Kathy Schroeder would be leaving the compound. Kathy had
380
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.140
previously sent her children out and her husband Michael had
381
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:35.200
been killed during a confrontation with the ATF on the
382
00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:39.180
day of the botched raid. She wanted to be reunited
383
00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:42.700
with her surviving family and Koresh was fine with letting
384
00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:45.319
her go as he was already annoyed with her for
385
00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:51.029
smoking after the ATF raid. Kathy later told author Jeff Gwynn,
386
00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:55.190
He used my smoking for an excuse for kicking me out.
387
00:27:56.230 --> 00:27:58.769
He also told me I'd be a beacon of the
388
00:27:58.829 --> 00:28:04.759
message to inform the world. Kathy left the compound late
389
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.339
that morning with her hands up. and was interviewed extensively
390
00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:13.210
by the FBI. She assured them there were no suicide plans,
391
00:28:13.690 --> 00:28:17.410
but added that many other people inside did want to leave.
392
00:28:18.609 --> 00:28:22.099
They couldn't do so because Koresh had a hold over them.
393
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:27.440
The FBI filmed Kathy's emotional reunion with her three-year-old son
394
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.059
and sent the tape into the compound, hopeful it might
395
00:28:31.099 --> 00:28:37.160
inspire others to surrender. Another Branch Davidian left the same day,
396
00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:43.339
a 19-year-old Australian man named Oliver Gyrifus. Steve Schneider informed
397
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:46.480
negotiators that a few more were planning to leave the
398
00:28:46.539 --> 00:28:51.539
next day. But later that night, Siege Commander Jeff Jamar
399
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.329
ordered that the compound's electricity be switched off again to
400
00:28:55.420 --> 00:28:59.349
prove to the Branch Davidians that the FBI controlled their
401
00:28:59.470 --> 00:29:05.769
earthly lives, not David Koresh. This time, The power wouldn't
402
00:29:05.890 --> 00:29:13.329
be turned back on again. David Koresh and Steve Schneider
403
00:29:13.430 --> 00:29:17.740
were furious. They told the FBI negotiators that turning off
404
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.940
the power had been an act of bad faith. Privately,
405
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:27.000
the negotiators agreed with them. It seemed highly unlikely that
406
00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:31.299
more Branch Davidians were going to leave. Steve said that
407
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:35.910
their people were freezing cold. He again accused the government
408
00:29:35.950 --> 00:29:38.680
of wanting to kill them all and then burn the
409
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:44.029
building down. From the negotiators' perspectives, it felt as though
410
00:29:44.109 --> 00:29:48.029
whenever they were making incremental progress, the HRT took an
411
00:29:48.089 --> 00:29:52.710
aggressive approach that undermined their hard work. As far as
412
00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:57.109
the HRT was concerned, the negotiators themselves seemed to have
413
00:29:57.130 --> 00:30:01.809
been taken hostage by the Branch Davidians. Their progress seemed
414
00:30:01.930 --> 00:30:05.730
painfully slow to the tactical unit, who were accustomed to
415
00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:10.119
wrapping things up within a couple of days. Described by
416
00:30:10.150 --> 00:30:14.400
an analyst who worked with the FBI as testosterone-driven, the
417
00:30:14.420 --> 00:30:18.880
HRT agents believed decisive action could likely draw the standoff
418
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:23.680
to a close quite swiftly. Frustration grew to such a
419
00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:27.130
point that one member of the HRT graffitied an outhouse
420
00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:30.779
they were using with the words... Sage is a Davidian,
421
00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:36.960
in reference to negotiator Byron Sage. Although the power in
422
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.859
the compound had been cut off, the phone line remained
423
00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:45.420
open and the negotiators continued trying different tactics. They had
424
00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:48.809
Kathy Schroeder call in to speak to her fellow church members.
425
00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:53.289
She reassured the Branch Davidians that the FBI was treating
426
00:30:53.329 --> 00:30:57.700
her well and hadn't charged her with anything. They'd only
427
00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:03.220
asked general questions and had been super. This didn't have
428
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:07.180
the desired effect, with both Koresh and Steve Schneider becoming
429
00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:10.470
upset with Kathy for not being a spokesperson for them.
430
00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:14.710
One of the FBI's hidden microphones picked up someone in
431
00:31:14.730 --> 00:31:19.410
the compound, stating, Kathy sounds like she's becoming one of them.
432
00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:26.670
After that, the FBI established a modified strategy. the negotiators
433
00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:30.529
would remain friendly and courteous, but would take a firmer approach.
434
00:31:31.529 --> 00:31:34.130
They would continue to discuss finding a way to a
435
00:31:34.170 --> 00:31:37.750
peaceful resolution with the Branch Davidians, but would no longer
436
00:31:37.809 --> 00:31:43.829
listen to any more Bible babble. On Monday, March 15,
437
00:31:43.829 --> 00:31:48.450
Koresh's two right-hand men, Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin, agreed
438
00:31:48.490 --> 00:31:52.039
to meet with negotiator Byron Sage and the McLennan County
439
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.400
Sheriff in person. The four met on the grounds of
440
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:01.039
Mount Carmel, about 20 yards from the front doors. All
441
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:06.220
were putting themselves in a dangerous situation. Byron Sage was
442
00:32:06.349 --> 00:32:09.529
terrified that someone from inside the compound might seize the
443
00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:13.769
moment to fire on him or the sheriff. Meanwhile, some
444
00:32:13.829 --> 00:32:16.849
members of the HRT were fighting the urge to grab
445
00:32:16.890 --> 00:32:20.250
Steve and Wayne and arrest them as they stood there unarmed.
446
00:32:21.410 --> 00:32:25.069
Their instincts to jump into action were only assuaged by
447
00:32:25.109 --> 00:32:31.210
directions from FBI leadership to leave the men alone. Byron
448
00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:35.069
Sage spoke mostly to Steve, who was calm and made
449
00:32:35.170 --> 00:32:39.880
strong eye contact. Wayne Martin seemed nervous, dressed in a
450
00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:45.039
three-piece suit and fidgeting. Sage looked Steve directly in the
451
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.980
eyes and reassured him that he would give his life
452
00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:53.279
to protect two documents– the US Constitution, and the Bible.
453
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.019
That was why he was meeting with them to come
454
00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:03.220
to a peaceful resolution. Steve responded positively to this, telling
455
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:06.559
Sage that he believed him completely and would do all
456
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.849
that he could to conclude the siege, though he and
457
00:33:09.890 --> 00:33:13.630
Wayne repeatedly made it clear that Koresh would always have
458
00:33:13.650 --> 00:33:18.769
the final say. Steve Schneider and Byron Sage agreed to
459
00:33:18.809 --> 00:33:23.309
meet again the following day. When Steve went back into
460
00:33:23.349 --> 00:33:26.690
the compound, he told Koresh how much he liked and
461
00:33:26.849 --> 00:33:33.849
trusted Sage. That night, Jeff Jamar ordered combat engineer vehicles
462
00:33:33.950 --> 00:33:37.779
to clear everything within 50 yards of the Mount Carmel building.
463
00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:42.380
They crushed cars that belonged to Branch Davidians and were
464
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:46.750
parked around the properties. This would prevent any branch Davidians
465
00:33:46.829 --> 00:33:49.630
from using the vehicles as cover if they decided to
466
00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:57.559
run out of the building, guns blazing. This was perceived
467
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:02.160
as a hostile act and again inflamed tempers inside Mount Carmel.
468
00:34:03.259 --> 00:34:06.960
Steve Schneider refused to meet with negotiators again the following
469
00:34:07.009 --> 00:34:10.530
day and he and Koresh argued with Byron Sage over
470
00:34:10.570 --> 00:34:15.860
the phone. Are you going to kill me? Koresh asked. No,
471
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:22.480
Sage replied, before the call ended abruptly. Deciding they needed
472
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:26.539
to speak to all Branch Davidians more directly, the negotiators
473
00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:30.659
began broadcasting messages over a loudspeaker system the FBI had
474
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.239
set up outside the compound. This would allow everyone inside
475
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:40.409
the compound to hear them. They broadcast tapes recorded by
476
00:34:40.449 --> 00:34:45.539
Branch Davidians who'd left the siege. These upbeat recordings featured
477
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:52.119
positive messages about their interactions with law enforcement. The negotiators
478
00:34:52.179 --> 00:34:55.139
also arranged for a package full of documents to be
479
00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:58.840
dropped off at the compound, including letters from attorneys willing
480
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:02.300
to represent Koresh and others, a letter from the Christian
481
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:06.260
Broadcasting Network, and an audio tape from a theologian who'd
482
00:35:06.369 --> 00:35:11.699
listened to Koresh's sermons. These tactics seemed to work, with
483
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.900
Koresh saying that more people would soon be coming out
484
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:20.769
and they would eventually be followed by everyone else. Over
485
00:35:20.829 --> 00:35:24.809
the next few days, nine adults left the compound, including
486
00:35:24.969 --> 00:35:29.380
Sheila Martin, the wife of Wayne Martin. Sheila was allowed
487
00:35:29.420 --> 00:35:33.900
to call her husband in the compound, telling him, Everything
488
00:35:33.980 --> 00:35:39.139
went well. The ride was bumpy. Wayne gave a reply
489
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:44.300
that the FBI considered cryptic. It could be bumpy later too.
490
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:49.989
The negotiators were encouraged by the steady stream of surrenders.
491
00:35:50.849 --> 00:35:54.110
They urged Steve to send out more people, but he
492
00:35:54.150 --> 00:35:57.050
said he couldn't as Koresh was sleeping and had to
493
00:35:57.090 --> 00:36:02.530
be consulted before anyone else could leave. However, everything seemed
494
00:36:02.650 --> 00:36:07.510
to indicate that everyone would be out soon. At around
495
00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:11.329
the same time, Chief Negotiator Gary Nasner learnt of a
496
00:36:11.389 --> 00:36:15.170
plan that would take the standoff into a whole new phase.
497
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:30.480
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526
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FBI Special Agent in Charge Dick Schwein had recently arrived
527
00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:49.760
from the Texas city of El Paso to assist Jeff
528
00:38:49.820 --> 00:38:54.469
Jamar and other leaders. SAC Dick Schwein wore a dark
529
00:38:54.570 --> 00:38:59.570
blue swat-style uniform, where the other SACs typically wore civilian clothing.
530
00:39:00.619 --> 00:39:05.159
Chief Negotiator Gary Nasner would later describe SAC Schwein as
531
00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:10.909
a caricature of the gung-ho type. He seemed surprisingly cavalier
532
00:39:10.969 --> 00:39:15.050
and flippant about the process. Once I heard him say
533
00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:19.130
in passing, no use trying to talk to these bastards.
534
00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:21.780
We've just got to go in there and cut their
535
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:26.429
balls off. On the same day that Steve Schneider said
536
00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:29.269
he had to wait for Koresh to wake before releasing
537
00:39:29.329 --> 00:39:33.320
any more people, Gary Nesner learnt of a plan SAC
538
00:39:33.380 --> 00:39:38.219
Schwein had proposed. He wanted to use the loudspeakers to
539
00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:43.780
broadcast music into the compound. According to Nesner, this was
540
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.940
an idea that SAC Schwein had gotten from his time
541
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:51.559
serving in the US Army. During the invasion of Panama,
542
00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:56.849
American soldiers had tormented military dictator General Manuel Noriega with
543
00:39:56.949 --> 00:39:59.989
loud recordings in an effort to force him out of hiding.
544
00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:05.869
Gary Nesner discouraged Jeff Jamar from implementing such a plan.
545
00:40:06.630 --> 00:40:10.320
He pointed out that music was not a recommended negotiation
546
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:15.110
tactic and was not something taught by the FBI. They
547
00:40:15.170 --> 00:40:17.869
were just starting to make real progress with the Branch
548
00:40:17.909 --> 00:40:23.199
Davidians and this approach would likely derail that. Plus, the
549
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:28.739
loud music tactic hadn't actually worked in Panama. Jeff Jamar
550
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.019
assured Nesna that he would speak to SAC Schwein that
551
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:35.030
evening when he came on duty and make sure the
552
00:40:35.070 --> 00:40:40.610
tapes weren't played. In his memoir, Stalling for Time, Nessner
553
00:40:40.630 --> 00:40:43.230
describes how he headed back to the motel where he
554
00:40:43.269 --> 00:40:47.619
was staying close to midnight, exhausted but reassured that things
555
00:40:47.659 --> 00:40:52.320
were working out. After taking a shower, he turned on
556
00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:57.789
the television. Quote, There on the news covered live was
557
00:40:57.889 --> 00:41:04.050
the Davidian compound, brightly illuminated, with torturous sounds blaring over speakers.
558
00:41:06.010 --> 00:41:10.980
The HRT blasted various songs, including Nancy Sinatra's These Boots
559
00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.539
Are Made For Walking across Mount Carmel, along with some
560
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:19.920
deep Tibetan chants. At the same time, bright floodlights were
561
00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:23.239
beamed across the property into the building's windows, making it
562
00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:28.440
impossible for people inside to sleep. Embarrassed on behalf of
563
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:32.000
the FBI and furious that his advice had been ignored,
564
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.219
Gary Nassner called the command post to speak to Jeff
565
00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:41.429
Jamar only to find he'd left for the evening. At 11.35pm,
566
00:41:41.809 --> 00:41:45.449
Steve Schneider passed on an angry message from David Koresh.
567
00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:52.090
Because of the loud music, nobody is coming out. The
568
00:41:52.130 --> 00:41:56.780
music eventually stopped, but only because the loudspeaker system malfunctioned.
569
00:41:58.739 --> 00:42:01.820
Gary Nesner raised the matter with the Jeff Jamar first
570
00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:06.130
thing in the morning. Jamar explained that he'd forgotten to
571
00:42:06.210 --> 00:42:09.980
tell SAC Schwein not to play the tapes, but promised
572
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:15.340
that it wouldn't happen again. That night, the tapes were
573
00:42:15.380 --> 00:42:20.570
played again. Included alongside the music and chanting were the
574
00:42:20.630 --> 00:42:25.150
sounds of rabbits screaming as they died, recordings typically used
575
00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:30.630
by hunters to attract coyotes. There were also screaming seagulls,
576
00:42:30.949 --> 00:42:36.289
crying babies, buzzing drills, droning bagpipes and other sounds selected
577
00:42:36.349 --> 00:42:40.900
for their abrasiveness. Gary Nassner again tried to put a
578
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:45.400
stop to this tactic, but Jeff Jamar seemed unbothered, telling
579
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.550
Nassner that Schwein had nothing better to do on the
580
00:42:48.610 --> 00:42:53.500
night shift. David Koresh and his band fought back against
581
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:57.760
the ongoing intrusion by setting up their own generator-powered amps
582
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.139
and playing loud rock songs for hours in the direction
583
00:43:01.179 --> 00:43:05.829
of the FBI. The Branch Davidian speakers were so powerful
584
00:43:06.030 --> 00:43:08.650
that agents had to shout at one another to be heard.
585
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.659
Gary Nessner, Byron Sage and the other negotiators tried to
586
00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:19.949
explain to the Branch Davidians that the tactical team was
587
00:43:19.989 --> 00:43:23.929
to blame for the ongoing harassment, but the damage was done.
588
00:43:25.250 --> 00:43:30.489
People inside the compound were exhausted and sleep deprived. Steve
589
00:43:30.530 --> 00:43:33.610
also told the negotiators that the agents who were standing
590
00:43:33.670 --> 00:43:36.889
guard around the compound were harassing them in other ways
591
00:43:37.389 --> 00:43:41.860
by mooning them and flipping them off. If Branch Davidians
592
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:45.579
walked outside to stand in the courtyard or other external areas,
593
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:51.059
FBI agents would toss flashbangs in their direction. This perceived
594
00:43:51.099 --> 00:43:54.519
hostility meant that no one inside Mount Carmel had any
595
00:43:54.599 --> 00:44:00.579
intention of surrendering. Byron Sage suspected that even if some
596
00:44:00.619 --> 00:44:03.900
of the Branch Davidians were desperate to leave, their loyalty
597
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:08.400
to David Koresh prevented them from doing so. Koresh was
598
00:44:08.539 --> 00:44:13.139
clearly a highly charismatic individual. His exceptional knowledge of the
599
00:44:13.179 --> 00:44:16.940
Bible and his interpretations of scripture had won many people
600
00:44:17.059 --> 00:44:22.539
over and they wholeheartedly believed in his teachings. Their loyalty
601
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.539
was clearly evident in the way that followers had submitted
602
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:28.539
to Koresh's insistence that other men in the group be
603
00:44:28.619 --> 00:44:34.179
celibate and all women be his spiritual wives. Koresh repeatedly
604
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:37.050
said that his people were free to leave at any time,
605
00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:40.880
But Sage knew that before anyone inside the compound could
606
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:44.670
do so, they had to complete an exit interview with Koresh.
607
00:44:45.829 --> 00:44:48.150
He always made sure to tell them that they could
608
00:44:48.190 --> 00:44:51.769
do as they pleased, but it would mean leaving their
609
00:44:51.829 --> 00:44:58.460
external salvation behind and giving themselves over to Babylon. On
610
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:02.639
the evening of Monday March 22, the FBI delivered another
611
00:45:02.739 --> 00:45:06.989
offer to David Koresh in writings. If everyone inside the
612
00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:10.349
compound was out by noon the following day, it said,
613
00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:14.809
Koresh could make a worldwide broadcast on the Christian Broadcast
614
00:45:14.869 --> 00:45:19.179
Network and would be permitted to maintain contact following his arrest.
615
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:26.239
He could even continue holding religious services. Koresh responded by
616
00:45:26.300 --> 00:45:29.480
telling the negotiators that he had thrown the letter away.
617
00:45:31.090 --> 00:45:35.300
Just after 10am the next morning, a 34-year-old British branch
618
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.860
Davidian named Livingston Fagan was sent out of the compound
619
00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:42.610
by Koresh to provide a counterpoint to the agency's narratives
620
00:45:42.710 --> 00:45:46.250
about the group. But before he could attempt to address
621
00:45:46.289 --> 00:45:50.289
the media, Livingston was arrested and taken to a local jail.
622
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:55.989
Late that night, the FBI continued their strategy of blasting
623
00:45:56.050 --> 00:46:01.070
high-powered beams into the compound while simultaneously broadcasting Tibetan chants,
624
00:46:01.369 --> 00:46:07.550
Christmas carols and recordings of previous negotiations. This proved just
625
00:46:07.659 --> 00:46:14.460
as ineffective as before. Chief Negotiator Gary Nesner continued to
626
00:46:14.539 --> 00:46:19.780
voice his displeasure at this approach and on Wednesday March 24,
627
00:46:19.780 --> 00:46:24.389
he was removed from his role. It would later emerge
628
00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:28.269
that the HRT leader had complained that NASNA was impeding
629
00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:34.030
the tactical team's more aggressive efforts. In his memoir, Stalling
630
00:46:34.070 --> 00:46:39.110
for Time, NASNA later wrote, The real story was that,
631
00:46:39.369 --> 00:46:43.550
with the FBI seemingly helpless to compel the Davidians to surrender,
632
00:46:44.110 --> 00:46:48.860
Siege Commander Jeff Jamar was feeling the heat. The entire
633
00:46:48.949 --> 00:46:56.050
nation was watching. and the FBI was spending about $ 128, 000
634
00:46:54.250 --> 00:46:59.659
a day. Venting my frustrations more strongly than before, I
635
00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:02.280
told him that I didn't think we would get anyone
636
00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:08.659
else out after these recent actions. He appeared unconcerned. I
637
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:12.340
realized then that he had already determined what he was
638
00:47:12.409 --> 00:47:20.519
going to do. Gary Nassner was replaced by Clint Van Zandt,
639
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.820
a former member of the negotiation unit. Nassner was concerned
640
00:47:25.900 --> 00:47:29.030
by this choice, knowing that Van Zandt was a vocal
641
00:47:29.110 --> 00:47:33.469
born-again Christian. Nassner worried that this would lead to Van
642
00:47:33.510 --> 00:47:38.849
Zandt getting into arguments with Koresh about biblical scripture. Sure enough,
643
00:47:39.250 --> 00:47:43.579
this concern proved warranted. with Van Zandt spending hours on
644
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:46.619
the phone with Koresh trying to persuade him that his
645
00:47:46.699 --> 00:47:51.719
interpretation of the Bible was wrong. Various negotiators on the
646
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:55.380
team later confided in Nestner that they had been frustrated
647
00:47:55.500 --> 00:48:00.960
by this approach. After Nestner's exit, there were repeated attempts
648
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:06.599
at negotiations and long conversations between Branch Davidians and FBI negotiators,
649
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:13.579
all to no avail. Progress had completely stalled. Morale inside
650
00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:17.900
the compound was low. By this point, they'd been without
651
00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:23.119
electricity for weeks, relying on Coleman lanterns, kerosene and propane
652
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:27.570
for light and heat. Their water supplies were depleting due
653
00:48:27.610 --> 00:48:30.389
to some of the outdoor receptacles having been shot at
654
00:48:30.489 --> 00:48:35.269
during the ATF raid. Branch Davidians limited themselves to one
655
00:48:35.309 --> 00:48:38.929
or two 8-ounce drinks per day, essentially one or two
656
00:48:39.090 --> 00:48:44.139
cups of water. People were no longer bathing and sanitary
657
00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:50.019
conditions were deteriorating. Buckets were used instead of flushing toilets.
658
00:48:50.969 --> 00:48:54.849
Food had to be rationed, with everyone receiving two ready-to-eat
659
00:48:54.909 --> 00:49:01.369
meals per day. Branch Davidian David Thibodeau later wrote, The
660
00:49:01.409 --> 00:49:05.989
pre-packaged rations of spaghetti and meatballs or tuna casserole taste
661
00:49:06.070 --> 00:49:10.590
like mud when eaten cold, slime when warmed over our lanterns.
662
00:49:11.809 --> 00:49:15.170
We freeze in the chilly winter prairie wind that rattles
663
00:49:15.289 --> 00:49:19.949
our broken windows and whistles through the building's thin sheetrock wall.
664
00:49:22.300 --> 00:49:26.219
Contact with the outside world had been almost entirely cut off,
665
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:31.599
with all messages relayed or filtered through the FBI. Branch
666
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:36.000
Davidians expressed their frustration by hanging more homemade banners out
667
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:41.130
of their windows with messages like, FBI broke negotiation, we
668
00:49:41.170 --> 00:49:46.590
want press, and Rodney King, we understand, a reference to
669
00:49:46.630 --> 00:49:50.070
the African American man whose brutal beating by police led
670
00:49:50.130 --> 00:49:55.630
to the LA riots two years earlier. There were supporters
671
00:49:55.750 --> 00:50:00.750
and sympathizers trying to make contact with them. J. Philip
672
00:50:00.869 --> 00:50:04.989
Arnold and James Tabor, two biblical scholars who'd been following
673
00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:09.059
the case since the botched ATF raid on February 28,
674
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:12.619
travelled to Waco to offer the FBI assistance in communicating
675
00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:17.739
with the Branch Davidians. They understood Koresh's preaching about the
676
00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:21.349
Seven Seals and realised that he was a true believer,
677
00:50:21.869 --> 00:50:24.750
not a con artist as many in law enforcement seemed
678
00:50:24.889 --> 00:50:29.250
to believe. His faith and that of his followers had
679
00:50:29.309 --> 00:50:33.570
to be taken into account when speaking to them. But
680
00:50:33.769 --> 00:50:36.829
when they tried to convey this to the FBI, Arnold
681
00:50:36.849 --> 00:50:42.070
and Tabor were turned away They kept trying over the
682
00:50:42.130 --> 00:50:46.030
ensuing days and weeks, and both were subsequently interviewed about
683
00:50:46.070 --> 00:50:50.829
the ongoing siege by a Dallas radio station. They critiqued
684
00:50:50.989 --> 00:50:54.579
media coverage that had depicted Koresh as just kind of
685
00:50:54.619 --> 00:50:58.019
a crazy man who rambles, pointing out that he knew
686
00:50:58.099 --> 00:51:01.719
the Bible well and his teachings were a logical way
687
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:05.989
of interpreting it. The two scholars worried that the longer
688
00:51:06.030 --> 00:51:09.460
the siege dragged on, the higher the likelihood that it
689
00:51:09.500 --> 00:51:13.920
would end tragically. As far as they were concerned, the
690
00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:17.920
government's actions were only serving to reinforce the Branch Davidians'
691
00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:23.750
apocalyptic belief system. The ATF, and now the FBI, had
692
00:51:23.849 --> 00:51:27.510
created a situation that would look to them like persecution
693
00:51:27.570 --> 00:51:32.769
from external forces in a kind of holy war. The
694
00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:36.570
scholars made a particular point of addressing Koresh's teachings about
695
00:51:36.590 --> 00:51:41.039
the seven seals, which they identified as being particularly important.
696
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:45.699
Koresh's preaching over the previous weeks had made it clear
697
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.820
that he believed the fifth seal had been opened when
698
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:52.760
the ATF had attempted to raid his compound. He had
699
00:51:52.820 --> 00:51:56.150
phoned a radio station on the night of February 28
700
00:51:56.150 --> 00:51:59.110
and told the station manager, we are now in the
701
00:51:59.190 --> 00:52:04.210
fifth seal. The station manager hadn't understood what he'd meant,
702
00:52:04.730 --> 00:52:10.550
but Arnold and Tabor knew exactly what it signified. In
703
00:52:10.590 --> 00:52:13.750
the Book of Revelation, when the fifth seal is opened,
704
00:52:14.090 --> 00:52:17.800
its writer John sees the souls of martyred Christians who
705
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:21.219
were persecuted and killed due to their loyalty to God.
706
00:52:22.460 --> 00:52:25.699
The souls cry out, asking how long it will be
707
00:52:25.780 --> 00:52:30.260
until justice is done. God tells them to wait a
708
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:36.659
little longer. until more of God's plan unfolds. Koresh, however,
709
00:52:37.050 --> 00:52:41.469
interpreted the fifth seal as pertaining specifically to his followers.
710
00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:46.630
The Christians crying out were the Branch Davidians killed during
711
00:52:46.670 --> 00:52:50.909
the ATF raid, and now they were in their waiting season,
712
00:52:51.550 --> 00:52:56.869
pausing until God revealed what the next step was. From
713
00:52:56.989 --> 00:53:04.530
Koresh's perspective, surrendering early would mean disobeying God. Arnold and
714
00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:08.010
Tabor addressed the fifth seal at length in their second
715
00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:12.230
radio interview, encouraging Koresh to wait as long as he needed,
716
00:53:12.670 --> 00:53:15.349
while pointing out that he didn't have to remain at
717
00:53:15.409 --> 00:53:19.929
Mount Carmel to do so. Paul, the most famous of
718
00:53:20.010 --> 00:53:26.019
Jesus' apostles, had continued his ministry after being imprisoned. Koresh
719
00:53:26.119 --> 00:53:30.070
could surrender peacefully, and it wouldn't mean he was betraying God.
720
00:53:30.730 --> 00:53:35.690
It might actually expand his influence and audience. They cited
721
00:53:35.750 --> 00:53:39.780
a passage in Revelation that instructed its narrator to prophecy
722
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:45.039
again before many peoples and nations, something Koresh couldn't do
723
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.920
as long as he was holed up inside his compound.
724
00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:53.000
As they didn't know whether or not Koresh and his
725
00:53:53.059 --> 00:53:56.420
followers would have heard the radio interview, Arnold and Tabor
726
00:53:56.480 --> 00:53:59.480
obtained a taped copy of it and began thinking of
727
00:53:59.539 --> 00:54:06.110
a way to send it in to Mount Carmel. Another
728
00:54:06.170 --> 00:54:09.429
person eager to make contact with Koresh was an attorney
729
00:54:09.510 --> 00:54:14.119
retained by Koresh's mother ten days into the siege. Dick
730
00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:17.760
DeGaran was a renowned Texas criminal defense lawyer who would
731
00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:21.219
go on to defend some of the state's most infamous cases.
732
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:26.139
DeGaran drove with Koresh's mother to Waco and attempted to
733
00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:30.650
enter Mount Carmel but was blocked at a checkpoint. After
734
00:54:30.710 --> 00:54:35.150
petitioning both the courts and the FBI, DeGaran was finally
735
00:54:35.190 --> 00:54:39.250
permitted to visit Koresh on Monday March 29, just over
736
00:54:39.309 --> 00:54:42.989
a month into the siege. He rode up to the
737
00:54:43.050 --> 00:54:47.159
compound in an armoured Bradley vehicle driven by an FBI agent.
738
00:54:48.170 --> 00:54:51.670
They stopped about 100 yards from the building's entrance and
739
00:54:51.829 --> 00:54:54.429
de Guerin walked to the front door where he was
740
00:54:54.489 --> 00:55:00.000
met by Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin. David Koresh emerged
741
00:55:00.099 --> 00:55:05.960
from behind them, bandaged and walking slowly. Koresh told de
742
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.719
Guerin his version of events about what unfolded on February 28th.
743
00:55:10.630 --> 00:55:14.190
and de Guerin reassured him that if the ATF used
744
00:55:14.269 --> 00:55:25.219
excessive force without provocation and the Branch Davidians fought back, quote,
745
00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:29.400
De Guerin took a look around the rest of the
746
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:33.969
building and spoke with other Branch Davidians. He noticed a
747
00:55:34.010 --> 00:55:37.389
strong smell of sewage as well as garlic, which the
748
00:55:37.449 --> 00:55:41.750
injured group members were using to treat their wounds. de
749
00:55:41.769 --> 00:55:45.590
Guerin stayed for two hours and returned several more times
750
00:55:45.670 --> 00:55:48.230
over the next few days to meet with his client.
751
00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:53.630
When the media reported that de Guerin was representing Koresh, J.
752
00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:57.489
Philip Arnold and James Tabor, the two biblical scholars eager
753
00:55:57.530 --> 00:56:00.699
to share their message with Koresh, decided to reach out
754
00:56:00.739 --> 00:56:04.940
to him. They managed to get the tape to de Guerin,
755
00:56:05.139 --> 00:56:08.079
who agreed to take it to the Branch Davidians compound.
756
00:56:09.500 --> 00:56:13.130
On Sunday April 4th, Koresh and his followers sat in
757
00:56:13.170 --> 00:56:16.230
the dining hall as de Garum played the tape aloud.
758
00:56:18.030 --> 00:56:22.849
The room was silent as everybody listened. Although they didn't
759
00:56:22.869 --> 00:56:26.619
believe the scholars were as knowledgeable as David Koresh, they
760
00:56:26.659 --> 00:56:29.760
were positive about their message and felt a new sense
761
00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:35.420
of hope. Koresh did as well, wondering if perhaps this
762
00:56:35.500 --> 00:56:38.829
recording was the message from God he'd been waiting for.
763
00:56:40.510 --> 00:56:44.340
He couldn't provide specifics just yet, but he informed his
764
00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:47.539
lawyer that he and all of his followers would surrender
765
00:56:47.800 --> 00:56:54.099
after Passover, an eight-day Jewish holiday that the Branch Davidians observed.
766
00:56:54.619 --> 00:56:57.920
In 1993, it began on the following day of Monday,
767
00:56:58.099 --> 00:57:04.119
April 4, and concluded a week later on Tuesday, April 13.
768
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:07.380
It seemed like the siege might finally be drawing to
769
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:14.909
a close. The next couple of days saw little communication
770
00:57:14.969 --> 00:57:19.940
from those within the compound. Outside, the FBI continued to
771
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:23.420
make noise as they played loud music and unpleasant sounds
772
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.659
over the loudspeakers. They refused to stop, even when Steve
773
00:57:28.699 --> 00:57:34.110
Schneider called and threatened to cut off communication permanently. On
774
00:57:34.170 --> 00:57:38.769
Tuesday April 6, Steve also clarified that the Branch Davidians'
775
00:57:38.829 --> 00:57:43.070
dates for Passover were slightly different to those typically observed.
776
00:57:44.550 --> 00:57:48.380
They would begin Passover that day at sundown and observe
777
00:57:48.409 --> 00:57:52.719
it for the next seven days. When the FBI asked
778
00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:55.300
if that meant they'd be coming out on the eighth day,
779
00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:59.980
Steve Schneider said no. Koresh was still waiting for God
780
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:03.719
to tell him a date. They had said they'd leave
781
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:11.969
after Passover, not immediately after. David Koresh confirmed these dates
782
00:58:11.989 --> 00:58:14.650
the next day, and when asked if he would come
783
00:58:14.730 --> 00:58:18.800
out after that, he didn't answer, instead embarking on a
784
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:24.340
long religious sermon. The negotiators phoned the compound repeatedly over
785
00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:28.090
the next few days, but most of their calls went unanswered.
786
00:58:29.659 --> 00:58:33.480
On Friday April 9, Steve Schneider sent something out of
787
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:38.260
the compound for FBI negotiators to read. It was a
788
00:58:38.300 --> 00:58:42.860
letter dictated by David Koresh to Steve's wife, Judy, who'd
789
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:47.820
typed it up despite her injured hand. It opened with
790
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:53.699
the words, Friends, I offer to you my wisdom. I
791
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:58.329
offer to you my sealed secrets. How dare you turn
792
00:58:58.389 --> 00:59:03.340
away from my invitations of mercy? I know your sins
793
00:59:03.429 --> 00:59:07.880
and inequities. None are hid from me. When will you
794
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:13.320
ever fear and be wise? Your only saviour is my truth.
795
00:59:14.219 --> 00:59:19.880
My truth is the seven seals. It had been written
796
00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:23.380
from the perspective of God as though Koresh had channelled
797
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:28.340
the letter from a higher source. The letter ended by advising,
798
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:33.239
Learn from David, my seals, or, as you have said,
799
00:59:33.940 --> 00:59:39.050
bear the consequences. I forewarn you, the Lake Waco area
800
00:59:39.130 --> 00:59:43.829
of Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. The waters
801
00:59:43.869 --> 00:59:46.570
of the lake will be emptied through the broken dam.
802
00:59:47.690 --> 00:59:52.110
The heavens are calling you to judgment. Please consider these
803
00:59:52.190 --> 01:00:00.619
tokens of grave concern. Yahweh Koresh The FBI interpreted this
804
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:04.559
final paragraph as threatening to blow up the Lake Waco Dam,
805
01:00:04.940 --> 01:00:07.699
though it was unclear how he would do this while
806
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:11.929
holed up in Mount Carmel. Two more letters were sent
807
01:00:12.030 --> 01:00:16.949
out the next day, riddled with scriptural passages and more prophecies.
808
01:00:21.269 --> 01:00:25.389
On the night of Tuesday April 13, Dick DeGaran decided
809
01:00:25.449 --> 01:00:29.440
to call into the compound. As Koresh's lawyer, he could
810
01:00:29.500 --> 01:00:35.039
circumvent the blocks other outsiders faced. The Branch Davidians' Passover
811
01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:38.400
was concluding the following day and de Guerin wanted to
812
01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:42.340
see what Koresh was thinking. Would he be coming out
813
01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:47.380
soon as everybody hoped? Steve Schneider told de Guerin that
814
01:00:47.420 --> 01:00:50.409
Koresh couldn't come to the phone as he was writing
815
01:00:50.489 --> 01:00:54.429
another letter. It was sent out the next day and
816
01:00:54.489 --> 01:01:01.260
was addressed to de Guerin. It read, Hello Dick. As
817
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:04.920
far as our progress is concerned, here is where we stand.
818
01:01:05.980 --> 01:01:09.559
I have related two messages from God to the FBI,
819
01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:13.920
one of which concerns present danger to people here in Waco.
820
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:17.519
I was shown a fault line running through the Lake
821
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:22.179
Waco area. An angel is standing in charge of this event.
822
01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:26.110
Many people here in Waco know that we are a
823
01:01:26.139 --> 01:01:30.059
good people and yet they have shown the same resentful
824
01:01:30.179 --> 01:01:35.159
spirit of indifference to our warnings of love. I am
825
01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:39.809
presently being permitted to document, in structured form, the decoded
826
01:01:39.949 --> 01:01:44.809
messages of the seven seals. Upon the completion of this task,
827
01:01:45.269 --> 01:01:49.309
I will be freed from my waiting period. I hope
828
01:01:49.349 --> 01:01:52.639
to finish this as soon as possible. and to stand
829
01:01:52.739 --> 01:01:57.519
before man to answer any and all questions regarding my actions.
830
01:01:59.960 --> 01:02:03.469
Koresh went on at some length, sharing his desire for
831
01:02:03.510 --> 01:02:06.849
people to be saved and describing what he saw as
832
01:02:06.889 --> 01:02:11.309
his destiny to share the truth. He concluded the letter
833
01:02:11.409 --> 01:02:15.050
by again prophesying that an earthquake would hit Waco and
834
01:02:15.210 --> 01:02:18.659
shake some sense into the people, before adding what he
835
01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:23.880
planned to do with his finished manuscript. quote, I will
836
01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:27.059
demand that the first manuscript of the seals be given
837
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:31.420
to you. Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to
838
01:02:31.460 --> 01:02:35.840
have copies for examination. I will keep a copy with me.
839
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:39.659
As soon as I can see that people like Jim
840
01:02:39.699 --> 01:02:43.210
Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come out,
841
01:02:43.909 --> 01:02:46.530
and then you can do your thing with this beast.
842
01:02:47.889 --> 01:02:51.829
We are standing on the threshold of great advance. The
843
01:02:51.889 --> 01:02:57.210
seven seals, in written form, are the most sacred information ever.
844
01:02:59.230 --> 01:03:02.139
Koresh speculated that it would take him about one or
845
01:03:02.219 --> 01:03:05.139
two days to write about each of the seals, adding
846
01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:09.719
up to two weeks maximum until he was finished. After
847
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:13.659
they were done, he and everyone else would definitely surrender,
848
01:03:14.179 --> 01:03:17.269
and Koresh would be willingly taken into custody at the
849
01:03:17.309 --> 01:03:24.789
county jails. As word spread through the compound that they
850
01:03:24.829 --> 01:03:27.929
would finally be leaving within the next two weeks, the
851
01:03:27.989 --> 01:03:32.139
mood lifted considerably and people felt a renewed sense of hope.
852
01:03:33.300 --> 01:03:36.579
They removed the previous banners they'd hung outside the windows
853
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:40.349
and replaced them with new ones that had more positive messages.
854
01:03:41.489 --> 01:03:45.530
We come to love, not war, and let's have a
855
01:03:45.570 --> 01:03:50.360
beer when this is over. While many of them accepted
856
01:03:50.429 --> 01:03:53.789
that they would be incarcerated upon leaving, at least they'd
857
01:03:53.929 --> 01:03:57.150
no longer have to ration food or go without showers.
858
01:03:58.730 --> 01:04:02.230
They also knew how significant it was that David Koresh
859
01:04:02.329 --> 01:04:06.570
was writing a manuscript. Although he was an adept preacher,
860
01:04:06.969 --> 01:04:10.590
he'd never written his teachings down aside from notes he'd
861
01:04:10.650 --> 01:04:14.599
scribbled in his Bibles. He had long said his message
862
01:04:14.820 --> 01:04:18.389
could not and should not be written down until God
863
01:04:18.489 --> 01:04:24.230
gave permission. It seemed the long-awaited moment had finally come.
864
01:04:25.929 --> 01:04:29.989
Koresh dictated to Steve Schneider, who recorded him while also
865
01:04:30.130 --> 01:04:34.829
editing Koresh's words for grammatical errors. Then two other Branch
866
01:04:34.849 --> 01:04:39.050
Davidians typed up Steve's transcription on a computer, powered by
867
01:04:39.110 --> 01:04:45.809
their ever-depleting generator. Progress was going well and everyone was optimistic.
868
01:04:46.909 --> 01:04:50.469
By the end of Friday April 16, Koresh had finished
869
01:04:50.550 --> 01:04:55.889
writing about the first seal. His anticipated schedule was on track.
870
01:04:59.960 --> 01:05:04.380
On the outside, FBI leaders were having their own conversations.
871
01:05:05.820 --> 01:05:08.639
As far as they were concerned … Koresh had proved
872
01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:12.059
that he wasn't to be trusted on Tuesday March 2
873
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:16.840
when he reneged on their surrender agreement. From their perspective,
874
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:21.869
he had been incalcitrant and avoidant ever since. He often
875
01:05:21.929 --> 01:05:25.650
avoided speaking to negotiators for days at a time and
876
01:05:25.789 --> 01:05:28.190
wouldn't listen when they finally got a hold of him.
877
01:05:29.389 --> 01:05:32.750
He'd agreed to come out after Passover and now he
878
01:05:32.789 --> 01:05:37.050
was talking about a manuscript. They suspected this was just
879
01:05:37.130 --> 01:05:40.849
another delay tactic, even though Steve Schneider was offering to
880
01:05:40.909 --> 01:05:46.050
send out recordings of Koresh's progress. The siege had been
881
01:05:46.090 --> 01:05:49.880
dragging on for 48 days and everyone was over it.
882
01:05:51.230 --> 01:05:54.530
While law enforcement officers assigned to the standoff weren't as
883
01:05:54.590 --> 01:05:58.989
confined or deprived as the Branch Davidians, they were struggling too.
884
01:06:00.070 --> 01:06:03.150
They were living in motels, away from their families and
885
01:06:03.230 --> 01:06:07.809
subsisting on fast food like pizza. The days were long,
886
01:06:08.190 --> 01:06:14.000
with 12-hour shifts that were often extremely boring. The HRT
887
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:18.900
agents were especially restless. They were often tasked with delivering
888
01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:22.760
goods like milk and medical supplies to Mount Carmel, going
889
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:25.860
right up to the doors where four other federal agents
890
01:06:25.909 --> 01:06:30.619
had been killed. knowing the occupants inside were armed and
891
01:06:30.699 --> 01:06:36.659
responsible for their deaths, agitated them further. Because they were
892
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:40.320
used to charging in rather than holding back, the HRT
893
01:06:40.340 --> 01:06:44.079
had actually submitted a proposed action plan to FBI headquarters
894
01:06:44.139 --> 01:06:47.739
in Washington DC more than a month earlier, on Wednesday
895
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:52.760
March 10. They'd suggested that they surround the compound with
896
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:56.880
armoured tanks under cover of darkness, then demand the surrender
897
01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:01.969
of occupants. and, if necessary, employ non-lethal tear gas to
898
01:07:02.070 --> 01:07:08.079
force the Branch Davidians out. The negotiators advised against using
899
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:11.619
tear gas to clear the compound, unless the Branch Davidians
900
01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:16.699
continued to resist all efforts to negotiate. Because people had
901
01:07:16.820 --> 01:07:21.079
continued to surrender over the ensuing weeks and gradual progress
902
01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:25.170
was seemingly being made, the tear gas proposal was shelved.
903
01:07:26.650 --> 01:07:31.500
By April, however, It was back on the table. Siege
904
01:07:31.579 --> 01:07:36.690
commander Jeff Jamar wanted stronger action taken, and negotiator Byron
905
01:07:36.710 --> 01:07:40.269
Sage also signed off on a proposal to use tear gas.
906
01:07:41.550 --> 01:07:44.989
The siege was just dragging on too long, and a
907
01:07:45.030 --> 01:07:50.280
child hadn't been released since one week in. In order
908
01:07:50.300 --> 01:07:53.559
for tear gas to be used, the US Attorney General
909
01:07:53.639 --> 01:07:56.679
would have to agree, as the nation's chief law enforcement
910
01:07:56.739 --> 01:08:01.280
officer and head of the Department of Justice. Janet Reno
911
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:04.849
was the newly appointed Attorney General, having only been sworn
912
01:08:04.949 --> 01:08:08.250
in on March 12 after being nominated by the recently
913
01:08:08.309 --> 01:08:13.030
elected President Bill Clinton. Reno had worked as a prosecutor
914
01:08:13.070 --> 01:08:16.229
in Florida, where she developed a reputation for being a
915
01:08:16.369 --> 01:08:21.829
staunch advocate for children's rights. There were 62 adults and
916
01:08:21.909 --> 01:08:25.210
more than 20 children still holed up inside Mount Carmel,
917
01:08:25.630 --> 01:08:28.409
and the thought of releasing tear gas into a building
918
01:08:28.470 --> 01:08:31.979
with so many children did not sit well with Reno.
919
01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:36.039
What if the Branch Davidians took to using their kids
920
01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:40.399
as shields in the face of such an action? Reno
921
01:08:40.539 --> 01:08:44.060
also worried that the gas might permanently damage the children.
922
01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:49.720
On Monday April 12, she rejected the plan. finding it
923
01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:55.850
too aggressive. But the FBI persisted, pushing back against her
924
01:08:55.890 --> 01:08:59.069
decision by claiming the Branch Davidians had enough water to
925
01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:04.859
hold out indefinitely. and a tactical response was necessary. Reno
926
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:08.479
was assured in a 78-page briefing book that the gas
927
01:09:08.550 --> 01:09:14.569
was safe. Quote, experience with the effects on children, including infants,
928
01:09:14.729 --> 01:09:20.310
has been extensively investigated. Available reports indicate that, even in
929
01:09:20.390 --> 01:09:26.340
high concentrations or enclosed areas, long-term complications are extremely rare.
930
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:31.600
If there was any indication that Branch Davidians were using
931
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.609
children as human shields, the FBI would back off immediately.
932
01:09:36.750 --> 01:09:40.210
An FBI agent also told her that children were currently
933
01:09:40.270 --> 01:09:44.819
being abused within the compound. There was no evidence that
934
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:48.840
children were being physically or sexually abused during the standoff,
935
01:09:49.300 --> 01:09:53.779
though historical evidence indicated girls had been sexually abused by
936
01:09:53.859 --> 01:10:00.640
David Koresh and corporal punishment was used when children misbehaved. Finally,
937
01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:05.140
the FBI Director William Sessions called Janet Reno and asked
938
01:10:05.180 --> 01:10:12.310
her to reconsider. She did. On Saturday April 17, Reno
939
01:10:12.409 --> 01:10:15.180
gave her approval for the tear gas to be used,
940
01:10:15.689 --> 01:10:21.319
directing that it be put into effect on Monday April 19.
941
01:10:30.869 --> 01:10:34.369
Case File will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting
942
01:10:34.489 --> 01:10:40.279
us by listening to this episode's sponsors. Thank you for
943
01:10:40.340 --> 01:10:44.680
listening to this episode's ads. By supporting our sponsors, you
944
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:56.210
support Casefile to continue to deliver quality content. The gas
945
01:10:56.250 --> 01:11:01.689
the FBI proposed using was a white powder called 2-chlorobenzolmelanitrile,
946
01:11:01.979 --> 01:11:05.770
more commonly known as CS gas. It would be mixed
947
01:11:05.850 --> 01:11:09.649
with a solvent and delivered via armoured vehicles, which would
948
01:11:09.680 --> 01:11:14.340
breach the compound's walls and inject the gas inside. While
949
01:11:14.399 --> 01:11:18.140
CS gas is considered less than lethal, contact with it
950
01:11:18.260 --> 01:11:22.520
results in eye, skin and respiratory irritation, with coughing fits
951
01:11:22.619 --> 01:11:26.829
lasting up to 20 minutes. If used in confined spaces
952
01:11:26.930 --> 01:11:30.550
at close range and against people with underlying health conditions,
953
01:11:30.949 --> 01:11:35.239
it can kill. Some studies have indicated that large amounts
954
01:11:35.300 --> 01:11:40.380
of CS gas can be combustible. As the FBI didn't
955
01:11:40.420 --> 01:11:43.300
intend to use an excessive amount of gas, they didn't
956
01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:48.659
anticipate any overly severe results. Over 48 hours, they would
957
01:11:48.739 --> 01:11:52.460
gradually increase the levels being inserted into the compound until
958
01:11:52.520 --> 01:11:56.979
those inside were compelled to leave. That was plan A.
959
01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:00.680
If the Branch Davidians responded to the gas by arming
960
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:04.880
themselves and shooting at the FBI, they would implement Plan B,
961
01:12:05.640 --> 01:12:09.380
saturating the building with CS to force an immediate exit.
962
01:12:10.649 --> 01:12:14.869
The FBI felt confident that wouldn't happen, however. Their large
963
01:12:14.949 --> 01:12:18.750
tanks would provide protection and would surely be too intimidating
964
01:12:18.810 --> 01:12:25.109
to fire at. At 1.53pm on Sunday April 18, the
965
01:12:25.250 --> 01:12:28.529
FBI sent in armoured vehicles to clear the remaining Branch
966
01:12:28.550 --> 01:12:31.789
Davidian cars from Mount Carmel to prepare the area for
967
01:12:31.829 --> 01:12:36.270
the following day's operation. One of the vehicles removed was
968
01:12:36.340 --> 01:12:41.680
David Koresh's own Chevrolet Camaro. This prompted Koresh to pause
969
01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:44.880
his work on his manuscript and call the negotiator team
970
01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:49.500
to complain. Branch Davidians gathered in the compound's windows to
971
01:12:49.539 --> 01:12:53.220
look out as the tanks did their work. Some held
972
01:12:53.300 --> 01:12:58.359
up children. One HRT sniper noticed a cardboard sign that
973
01:12:58.380 --> 01:13:01.979
had been propped up in one of the windows. It read,
974
01:13:02.899 --> 01:13:12.439
Flames Await. At 5.59am on Monday April 19, just as
975
01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:16.689
dawn was breaking... Branch Davidian David Thibodeau was woken by
976
01:13:16.729 --> 01:13:21.010
the shrill ringing of the telephone. He answered it, and
977
01:13:21.069 --> 01:13:24.109
an FBI agent on the other end demanded to speak
978
01:13:24.189 --> 01:13:28.989
to Steve Schneider. David went to wake Steve, but as
979
01:13:29.050 --> 01:13:32.310
he was doing so, another Branch Davidian alerted them that
980
01:13:32.470 --> 01:13:36.449
something was going on outside. They went to a window
981
01:13:36.609 --> 01:13:39.739
and saw a formation of large demolition tanks had formed
982
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:43.380
a ring around the compound in the grey early morning light.
983
01:13:44.840 --> 01:13:48.560
At the same time, negotiator Byron Sage announced over the
984
01:13:48.699 --> 01:13:53.840
FBI's loudspeakers, The siege is over. We're going to put
985
01:13:53.899 --> 01:13:57.979
tear gas into the building. David and Stephen, lead your
986
01:13:58.020 --> 01:14:03.199
people out of there. At 6.02am, two of the tanks
987
01:14:03.260 --> 01:14:07.399
approached the compound's windows and injected CS gas via spray
988
01:14:07.470 --> 01:14:11.710
nozzles that had been attached to their booms. The branch
989
01:14:11.770 --> 01:14:15.359
Davidians stared at one another in shock as Byron Sage's
990
01:14:15.420 --> 01:14:20.199
voice continued to echo. This is not an assault. The
991
01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:26.000
tear gas is harmless, but it will make your environment uninhabitable. Eventually,
992
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:29.939
it will soak into your food and clothing. You are
993
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:36.039
under arrest. Come out with your hands up. Steve Schneider
994
01:14:36.079 --> 01:14:39.159
instructed the others to grab their gas masks, which they
995
01:14:39.189 --> 01:14:43.039
had purchased in bulk at a gun show. David Thibodeau
996
01:14:43.100 --> 01:14:46.569
ran from room to room, waking people and raising the alarm.
997
01:14:47.710 --> 01:14:51.130
The scene was soon chaotic, with individuals bumping into each
998
01:14:51.189 --> 01:14:55.630
other as they dashed about and children crying. Many of
999
01:14:55.670 --> 01:14:58.350
the women and children headed towards a tunnel that led
1000
01:14:58.390 --> 01:15:01.000
to an old school bus half buried in the ground,
1001
01:15:01.800 --> 01:15:05.239
but the opening minutes of the assault had knocked loose debris,
1002
01:15:05.500 --> 01:15:09.010
blocking their path. They turned around and made their way
1003
01:15:09.050 --> 01:15:11.569
to a concrete walk-in cooler at the base of the
1004
01:15:11.609 --> 01:15:15.550
residential tower, once used as a pantry, but now the
1005
01:15:15.590 --> 01:15:19.789
compound's gun room. As all of the gas masks were
1006
01:15:19.829 --> 01:15:24.430
designed for adults, none fit the children. The women dipped
1007
01:15:24.550 --> 01:15:27.729
rags and towels into buckets of water and used them
1008
01:15:27.789 --> 01:15:32.270
to cover their children's faces. Byron Sage could still be
1009
01:15:32.310 --> 01:15:36.539
heard over the loudspeakers, repeating the words, Come out with
1010
01:15:36.579 --> 01:15:40.039
your hands up. There will be no shooting. This is
1011
01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:46.710
not an assault. Outside, the FBI heard metallic clinking sounds
1012
01:15:46.829 --> 01:15:51.689
emanating from listening devices they'd smuggled into the compound. This
1013
01:15:51.789 --> 01:15:55.229
led them to believe that the Branch Davidians were arming up.
1014
01:15:56.510 --> 01:16:00.619
At 6.04am, two minutes after their tear gas was inserted,
1015
01:16:01.159 --> 01:16:04.279
gunshots came from the direction of the compound firing at
1016
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:08.880
the FBI's tanks. Byron Sage later said that the tank
1017
01:16:08.979 --> 01:16:11.920
positioned by the compound's front doors looked as though it
1018
01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:14.979
was lit up with sparklers due to the rounds bouncing
1019
01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:19.010
off it. This led to an immediate abandonment of the
1020
01:16:19.060 --> 01:16:23.270
agency's Plan A and a switch to Plan B. The
1021
01:16:23.390 --> 01:16:27.079
FBI was now authorised to flood the entire building with gas.
1022
01:16:32.250 --> 01:16:35.569
David Thibodeau was still racing through the building, checking the
1023
01:16:35.609 --> 01:16:38.329
women's quarters for anyone who might not have heard the message,
1024
01:16:38.649 --> 01:16:42.149
when he heard an enormous crashing sound reverberate through the building.
1025
01:16:43.090 --> 01:16:45.550
Two tanks had driven up to the dormitory side of
1026
01:16:45.590 --> 01:16:48.770
the compound and their steel claws were being used to
1027
01:16:48.810 --> 01:16:52.729
tear chunks out of the wall. The flimsy building shook
1028
01:16:52.850 --> 01:16:57.479
violently and David saw a powdery cloud billow inside, accompanied
1029
01:16:57.539 --> 01:17:02.390
by a hissing sound. Small gas canisters were simultaneously lobbed
1030
01:17:02.470 --> 01:17:05.949
through the windows, shattering the glass and adding to the fumes.
1031
01:17:07.220 --> 01:17:10.100
One canister hit a branch Davidian directly in the head,
1032
01:17:10.439 --> 01:17:15.119
causing him to drop unconscious to the floor. Protected by
1033
01:17:15.180 --> 01:17:18.760
his gas mask, David Thibodeau ran towards the building's chapel,
1034
01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:23.399
where some people had taken shelter. Describing the mask as
1035
01:17:23.460 --> 01:17:26.460
feeling like a hand squeezing your face, he had to
1036
01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:30.029
resist the urge to tear it off. He saw at
1037
01:17:30.069 --> 01:17:33.210
least one person without a mask who had tears streaming
1038
01:17:33.250 --> 01:17:37.899
down his face and was almost screaming in agony. Those
1039
01:17:37.979 --> 01:17:41.420
hiding in the chapel soon found their refuge targeted as
1040
01:17:41.479 --> 01:17:45.770
a tank knocked against the eastern wall. Its boom poked
1041
01:17:45.819 --> 01:17:49.569
through the hole it created and deposited more gas, sending
1042
01:17:49.649 --> 01:17:54.510
those inside scuttling towards the opposite corner. While the gas
1043
01:17:54.569 --> 01:17:59.289
masks protected the Branch Davidians' respiratory systems, they couldn't protect
1044
01:17:59.350 --> 01:18:04.029
their skin. Some received blisters from the gas, with one
1045
01:18:04.109 --> 01:18:09.270
describing his hands as having burns like battery acid. Tears
1046
01:18:09.350 --> 01:18:14.930
streamed down their faces from the pain. Messages continued droning
1047
01:18:15.029 --> 01:18:19.689
over the loudspeaker. We are not entering the building. David,
1048
01:18:19.909 --> 01:18:22.140
this will not come to an end until you are
1049
01:18:22.300 --> 01:18:24.970
all out of the buildings. We are ready to meet
1050
01:18:25.010 --> 01:18:31.880
you and provide appropriate medical attention. By 6.55am, the firing
1051
01:18:31.979 --> 01:18:36.920
at the FBI's tanks had stopped. The FBI hadn't fired back,
1052
01:18:37.500 --> 01:18:41.800
but no one had emerged from the compound. At one point,
1053
01:18:42.180 --> 01:18:45.409
someone had tossed the building's telephone outside the front door,
1054
01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:51.149
but that was it. The FBI continued on. with Plan B.
1055
01:18:52.189 --> 01:18:56.579
By 7.09am, they had used up almost their entire supply
1056
01:18:56.640 --> 01:19:00.619
of 400 ferret round canisters and issued a request to
1057
01:19:00.659 --> 01:19:05.930
local law enforcement agencies to send more. Another hour went
1058
01:19:05.979 --> 01:19:10.430
by with no one emerging from the compound. Byron Sage
1059
01:19:10.510 --> 01:19:14.340
again encouraged the Branch Davidians to come out, directing them
1060
01:19:14.439 --> 01:19:18.060
to walk down the driveway and surrender to the guys
1061
01:19:18.100 --> 01:19:23.189
in the Bradleys. We don't want to hurt anyone. Inside
1062
01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:26.970
the chapel, as waves of gas permeated the air, people
1063
01:19:27.109 --> 01:19:32.130
quietly read their Bibles or listened to radio broadcasts. The
1064
01:19:32.170 --> 01:19:35.689
media had already picked up that something serious was underway
1065
01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:41.210
at Mount Carmel. Ron Engelman, a Dallas-based radio presenter who
1066
01:19:41.250 --> 01:19:44.550
was highly sympathetic to the Branch Davidians, spoke of his
1067
01:19:44.649 --> 01:19:48.130
horror at the US government's actions while begging the Branch
1068
01:19:48.149 --> 01:19:52.560
Davidians to come out for their own sakes. Some heard
1069
01:19:52.609 --> 01:19:56.520
his message but didn't heed his advice, scared that if
1070
01:19:56.560 --> 01:20:01.979
they exited the building, they'd be shot. David Koresh, wearing
1071
01:20:02.020 --> 01:20:05.220
a gas mask, split his time between still working on
1072
01:20:05.260 --> 01:20:10.890
his manuscript and checking in on his followers. At 9.47am,
1073
01:20:11.170 --> 01:20:14.329
someone from inside the compound ducked out quickly to retrieve
1074
01:20:14.390 --> 01:20:19.770
the phone thrown outside, shouting, David's transcript is almost complete.
1075
01:20:20.989 --> 01:20:23.229
But the telephone line had been cut off by one
1076
01:20:23.250 --> 01:20:27.390
of the tanks, and the phone was useless. Some Branch
1077
01:20:27.409 --> 01:20:30.390
Davidians hung out a banner that read, We want our
1078
01:20:30.449 --> 01:20:35.800
phone fixed. The FBI tried to reconnect the phone, but couldn't.
1079
01:20:36.840 --> 01:20:40.710
They continued issuing commands over the loudspeaker every 10 minutes.
1080
01:20:42.569 --> 01:20:45.909
Fierce winds blowing 31 miles per hour gusted into the
1081
01:20:45.949 --> 01:20:49.520
compound from outside, whipping up the heavy clouds of gas.
1082
01:20:50.680 --> 01:20:53.539
Earlier that morning, the Weather Service had issued a wind
1083
01:20:53.579 --> 01:20:58.140
advisory for Waco, which the FBI had ignored. Now it
1084
01:20:58.189 --> 01:21:02.899
was dispersing the gas they'd deposited. In response to this,
1085
01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:06.659
the FBI pushed their tanks further into the compound in
1086
01:21:06.699 --> 01:21:12.020
an attempt to corral the Branch Davidians. At 10am, the
1087
01:21:12.090 --> 01:21:16.670
tanks began crashing against the building's exterior walls, crumbling them
1088
01:21:16.930 --> 01:21:19.550
and causing the door to the cooler room where most
1089
01:21:19.590 --> 01:21:23.670
of the women and children were hiding to dislodge. The
1090
01:21:23.710 --> 01:21:26.649
women had shut the door to prevent gas from leaking in,
1091
01:21:27.260 --> 01:21:31.970
but it began to flood their shelter. At the same time,
1092
01:21:32.270 --> 01:21:35.569
the roof above caved in along with parts of the walls,
1093
01:21:35.949 --> 01:21:39.729
pinning some women and children to the ground and killing others.
1094
01:21:44.489 --> 01:21:47.720
Branch Davidians in other parts of the compound were oblivious
1095
01:21:47.779 --> 01:21:51.439
to the damage below. They raced from room to room
1096
01:21:51.619 --> 01:21:54.500
trying to dodge the walls that were caving in around them.
1097
01:21:55.680 --> 01:21:58.739
A thick layer of dust from the gas coated every
1098
01:21:58.819 --> 01:22:06.869
surface inside. Just after 11am, Byron Sage announced, David, Steve,
1099
01:22:07.430 --> 01:22:12.010
we're still here. So are you. We're placing tear gas
1100
01:22:12.289 --> 01:22:16.289
and will continue to do so. You are prolonging the inevitable.
1101
01:22:17.260 --> 01:22:20.800
Your word has been hollow and false. We want you
1102
01:22:20.859 --> 01:22:26.840
to exit now and submit yourself to proper authorities. There
1103
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:31.810
was no response from inside the compound. The tanks demolished
1104
01:22:31.909 --> 01:22:35.239
more parts of the building, knocking down the gymnasium behind
1105
01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:40.020
the chapel. Stairways were broken, which trapped some Branch Davidians
1106
01:22:40.100 --> 01:22:44.680
on the upper levels. Finally managing to reconnect the phone line,
1107
01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:50.260
the FBI tried calling, but nobody answered. The listening devices
1108
01:22:50.340 --> 01:22:54.140
were still picking up parts of conversations and human movement inside,
1109
01:22:54.500 --> 01:22:58.829
reassuring the FBI that people were alive. but they suddenly
1110
01:22:58.890 --> 01:23:05.210
ceased working after being damaged by falling debris. Just after noon,
1111
01:23:05.569 --> 01:23:11.520
David Thibodeau suddenly heard somebody shout, Fire! Flames had broken
1112
01:23:11.699 --> 01:23:15.720
out almost simultaneously in three different sections of the building.
1113
01:23:16.979 --> 01:23:20.140
David looked around for an escape route and saw one
1114
01:23:20.180 --> 01:23:24.109
path was blocked by a timber beam. Climbing up to
1115
01:23:24.149 --> 01:23:27.449
the upper level, he saw fireballs shooting down the corridor,
1116
01:23:27.760 --> 01:23:32.500
forcing him to retreat back downstairs. The chapel was now
1117
01:23:32.579 --> 01:23:37.539
entirely engulfed in flames. David Thibodeau saw people huddled in
1118
01:23:37.579 --> 01:23:41.819
a corner, trying to avoid the thick smoke. Within minutes
1119
01:23:41.859 --> 01:23:45.239
of the fire first being noticed, more flames had erupted
1120
01:23:45.430 --> 01:23:50.270
all throughout the compound. The entire building was ablaze and
1121
01:23:50.329 --> 01:23:54.449
enormous plumes of black smoke emanated from the compound, visible
1122
01:23:54.569 --> 01:24:01.890
from 10 miles away. At 12.12pm, Byron Sage urgently requested
1123
01:24:01.949 --> 01:24:06.449
that David Koresh lead his people out to safety. One
1124
01:24:06.510 --> 01:24:09.930
minute later, the FBI called for assistance from the local
1125
01:24:09.989 --> 01:24:13.949
fire department. They had no equipment at the ready to
1126
01:24:14.069 --> 01:24:20.319
fight such an immense blaze. At 12.25pm, FBI agents heard
1127
01:24:20.380 --> 01:24:25.340
gunshots ringing out from inside the compound. When firefighters arrived
1128
01:24:25.340 --> 01:24:28.430
10 minutes later, they were held back at a perimeter
1129
01:24:28.670 --> 01:24:33.529
out of concern they may be shot. While FBI agents
1130
01:24:33.590 --> 01:24:37.289
were fearing gunfire, some people inside Mount Carmel were too
1131
01:24:37.350 --> 01:24:41.350
scared to attempt an escape for the same reasons. At
1132
01:24:41.390 --> 01:24:44.630
least one individual decided not to jump from a window
1133
01:24:44.789 --> 01:24:48.689
out of fear government agents would shoot him. Two men
1134
01:24:48.750 --> 01:24:51.760
escaped out the back door to the cafeteria, only to
1135
01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:56.199
be struck by FBI tanks. One lost a leg, the
1136
01:24:56.239 --> 01:25:01.119
other's torso was torn open. David Thibodeau crawled on his
1137
01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:04.539
hands and knees following two other Branch Davidians who were
1138
01:25:04.579 --> 01:25:08.600
headed towards a hole on the chapel's east side. They
1139
01:25:08.649 --> 01:25:12.340
managed to stagger outside, away from the blaze, and made
1140
01:25:12.380 --> 01:25:15.659
their way towards a red cross sign positioned about 50
1141
01:25:15.659 --> 01:25:24.899
yards away. In total, nine Branch Davidians managed to escape
1142
01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:31.439
the burning compound. Most escaped between 12.20 and 12.30pm by
1143
01:25:31.500 --> 01:25:34.819
crawling through the same hole as David Thibodeau or through
1144
01:25:34.859 --> 01:25:38.550
another gap in the front of the compound. A man
1145
01:25:38.649 --> 01:25:41.630
jumped from the second floor roof while a woman leapt
1146
01:25:41.729 --> 01:25:46.270
from a second floor window covered in burns. Another woman
1147
01:25:46.350 --> 01:25:50.289
ran out but upon seeing the FBI tanks outside, turned
1148
01:25:50.329 --> 01:25:55.569
around and raced back inside the burning building. A HRT
1149
01:25:55.630 --> 01:25:59.380
agent saw her, left his armoured vehicle and pursued the woman,
1150
01:25:59.779 --> 01:26:02.420
pulling her back to safety as she fought against him.
1151
01:26:03.949 --> 01:26:07.489
FBI agents intercepted the survivors, forcing them to lie in
1152
01:26:07.529 --> 01:26:10.460
a row on the ground and restraining their hands behind
1153
01:26:10.539 --> 01:26:15.680
their backs. One agent demanded to know, where are the
1154
01:26:15.720 --> 01:26:23.710
women and children? At 12.41pm, firefighters finally started battling the blaze.
1155
01:26:24.869 --> 01:26:27.789
Believing the women and children were most likely hiding in
1156
01:26:27.810 --> 01:26:30.550
the buried bus or the tunnels that led to it.
1157
01:26:31.020 --> 01:26:35.329
some HRT agents raced towards the compound, which was still burning.
1158
01:26:36.869 --> 01:26:40.609
Explosions occasionally went off as the huge amount of ammunition
1159
01:26:40.630 --> 01:26:45.380
stockpiled by the Branch Davidians caught fire. Making their way
1160
01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:48.619
into some of the tunnels and eventually the bus itself,
1161
01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:54.380
HRT agents found them to be cool and undamaged. In
1162
01:26:54.420 --> 01:26:58.319
a state of shock, negotiator Byron Sage approached the site
1163
01:26:58.560 --> 01:27:03.500
and asked his colleagues... where are the kids? As he
1164
01:27:03.579 --> 01:27:06.420
learnt that no one had been found in the location
1165
01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:11.319
where they'd been expected to hide, the horrifying realisation dawned
1166
01:27:12.050 --> 01:27:15.310
that all of the children had been consumed by the inferno.
1167
01:27:16.649 --> 01:27:20.670
It had been fast and deadly, engulfing the entire flimsy
1168
01:27:20.729 --> 01:27:26.600
building within 10 to 30 minutes. By 12.30pm the roof
1169
01:27:26.640 --> 01:27:31.659
had collapsed and two minutes later, the compound was effectively gone.
1170
01:27:33.279 --> 01:27:37.760
At 12.55pm, the flames began to die down due to
1171
01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:42.699
a lack of material left to burn. It was a
1172
01:27:42.779 --> 01:27:45.590
day before parts of the site had cooled down enough
1173
01:27:45.670 --> 01:27:48.630
to permit an examination of the wreckage, and a week
1174
01:27:48.789 --> 01:27:53.489
before everything could be properly searched. The Texas Rangers took
1175
01:27:53.529 --> 01:27:57.050
command of the compound to undertake a proper crime scene analysis.
1176
01:27:58.300 --> 01:28:01.479
An arson team composed of experts from across the United
1177
01:28:01.539 --> 01:28:04.720
States was tasked with determining the cause of the fire.
1178
01:28:06.039 --> 01:28:11.699
Amidst the rubble, they discovered 305 firearms and approximately 1.9
1179
01:28:11.699 --> 01:28:18.470
million rounds of cooked-off or spent ammunition. By Monday May 3,
1180
01:28:18.470 --> 01:28:21.850
two weeks after the fire, the Rangers had also recovered
1181
01:28:21.890 --> 01:28:23.989
the remains of 76 bodies, 53 adults and 21 children.
1182
01:28:28.840 --> 01:28:34.430
Two young women, 17-year-old Ayesha Gyrifus and 24-year-old Nicole Jant,
1183
01:28:34.670 --> 01:28:38.569
had been heavily pregnant when they died and spontaneously gave
1184
01:28:38.670 --> 01:28:42.310
birth during the assault. adding two more infants to the
1185
01:28:42.369 --> 01:28:46.640
death toll. Both of these babies had been fathered by
1186
01:28:46.699 --> 01:28:51.720
David Koresh. All 14 of his children died during the fire.
1187
01:28:54.119 --> 01:28:58.159
Medical examiners were only able to identify 35 individuals when
1188
01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:04.819
performing autopsies, leaving 40 unidentified. Eighteen children and nine women
1189
01:29:04.920 --> 01:29:08.560
were found in the concrete cooler. Most had died of
1190
01:29:08.689 --> 01:29:12.310
smoke inhalation, while some had been crushed by falling debris.
1191
01:29:13.689 --> 01:29:17.909
Rachel Koresh, David Koresh's wife, had been amongst these victims,
1192
01:29:18.470 --> 01:29:23.609
as was her younger sister, Michelle Jones, and Steve Schneider's wife, Judy.
1193
01:29:24.949 --> 01:29:30.350
Their children died alongside them. Three women and four children
1194
01:29:30.409 --> 01:29:34.140
in the bunker, including one infant, had died from gunshot
1195
01:29:34.180 --> 01:29:37.859
wounds to the head and chest, seemingly in mercy killings.
1196
01:29:39.260 --> 01:29:42.359
A boy around two or three years old was killed
1197
01:29:42.460 --> 01:29:47.819
by a stab wound to his chest. Elsewhere in the compound,
1198
01:29:48.159 --> 01:29:51.569
smoke inhalation was the leading cause of death, killing 33 people.
1199
01:29:53.770 --> 01:29:57.180
Nine people died from burns or a combination of burns
1200
01:29:57.279 --> 01:30:01.659
and smoke inhalation. There were also further victims who had
1201
01:30:01.699 --> 01:30:05.239
chosen to be shot rather than burn, including six men,
1202
01:30:05.520 --> 01:30:09.520
three women, and one individual whose gender couldn't be determined.
1203
01:30:11.300 --> 01:30:15.270
The remains of 33-year-old David Koresh were recovered in the
1204
01:30:15.329 --> 01:30:19.550
compound's communications room, the office area where he'd spent hours
1205
01:30:19.630 --> 01:30:24.920
speaking to negotiators and writing his manuscript. Koresh had been
1206
01:30:24.960 --> 01:30:29.399
killed by a single gunshot wound to the forehead. Steve
1207
01:30:29.439 --> 01:30:33.279
Schneider's body was nearby. He'd been shot in the mouth.
1208
01:30:34.979 --> 01:30:38.359
An autopsy couldn't confirm whether Koresh had taken his own
1209
01:30:38.420 --> 01:30:43.850
life or been killed by another. One FBI official speculated
1210
01:30:43.909 --> 01:30:46.850
that in the final moments at Mount Carmel, Steve had
1211
01:30:46.970 --> 01:30:50.289
probably realised that he was dealing with a fraud and
1212
01:30:50.390 --> 01:30:54.949
so murdered Koresh before turning the gun on himself. There
1213
01:30:55.010 --> 01:30:58.710
is no definitive evidence to prove or disprove this theory.
1214
01:31:03.829 --> 01:31:07.060
Right from the start of the standoff between federal authorities
1215
01:31:07.149 --> 01:31:10.180
and the Branch Davidians, the events at Waco had been
1216
01:31:10.220 --> 01:31:14.579
a massive news story. It was followed closely and reported
1217
01:31:14.659 --> 01:31:19.079
on constantly by media outlets nationwide as well as overseas.
1218
01:31:20.140 --> 01:31:22.520
When the siege came to a brutal end on its
1219
01:31:22.539 --> 01:31:27.670
51st day, the coverage went into overdrive. The deaths of
1220
01:31:27.810 --> 01:31:31.510
so many individuals, particularly such a high number of children,
1221
01:31:31.770 --> 01:31:37.640
led to reporters and commentators expressing shock. Headlines emphasised that
1222
01:31:37.659 --> 01:31:41.539
this was a tragedy on a scale that felt completely unprecedented.
1223
01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:47.640
The public echoed these sentiments. The day after the fire,
1224
01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:51.279
President Bill Clinton spoke about Waco with reporters at the
1225
01:31:51.350 --> 01:31:57.539
White House. Describing David Koresh as dangerous, irrational and probably insane,
1226
01:31:58.039 --> 01:32:00.680
he said that the siege and enormous loss of life
1227
01:32:00.859 --> 01:32:05.109
was not the fault of the government. Four federal agents
1228
01:32:05.170 --> 01:32:07.550
were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce
1229
01:32:07.609 --> 01:32:11.029
the law against the Branch Davidian compound, which had illegally
1230
01:32:11.090 --> 01:32:15.380
stockpiled weaponry and ammunition and placed innocent children at risk,
1231
01:32:15.739 --> 01:32:20.439
he said. Mr Koresh's response to demands for his surrender
1232
01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:24.340
by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the
1233
01:32:24.399 --> 01:32:27.319
children who were his captives, as well as all the
1234
01:32:27.399 --> 01:32:31.920
other people who were there who did not survive. President
1235
01:32:31.960 --> 01:32:35.380
Clinton defended the operation that the FBI had undertaken the
1236
01:32:35.420 --> 01:32:38.899
previous day, while adding that the Departments of Justice and
1237
01:32:39.039 --> 01:32:42.239
Treasury would be beginning an immediate investigation into what had
1238
01:32:42.279 --> 01:32:47.130
happened and why. Attorney General Janet Reno was called to
1239
01:32:47.229 --> 01:32:50.250
answer for her decision to approve the use of tear gas.
1240
01:32:51.390 --> 01:32:54.369
Why hadn't the FBI just waited the Branch Davidians out?
1241
01:32:56.090 --> 01:33:00.060
Reno spoke to the media about that, repeatedly emphasising that
1242
01:33:00.140 --> 01:33:03.739
she had approved the plan because she'd received reports that
1243
01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:07.760
children inside the compound were being physically and sexually abused
1244
01:33:08.039 --> 01:33:13.869
and was told the situation required urgent action. FBI Director
1245
01:33:13.930 --> 01:33:18.409
William Sessions distanced himself from these assertions, claiming that he
1246
01:33:18.449 --> 01:33:23.369
hadn't told Reno any such thing, and adding, She's responsible
1247
01:33:23.449 --> 01:33:28.439
for what she heard. FBI documents later examined by the
1248
01:33:28.479 --> 01:33:32.899
PBS program Frontline revealed that an unnamed agent had in
1249
01:33:32.979 --> 01:33:36.020
fact made these claims to Reno while the agency was
1250
01:33:36.100 --> 01:33:43.930
pressuring her to approve the tear gas plan. Another question
1251
01:33:43.989 --> 01:33:47.270
that needed to be answered was, who started the fire?
1252
01:33:48.850 --> 01:33:52.850
Almost immediately, the FBI and the Department of Justice accused
1253
01:33:52.869 --> 01:33:57.739
the Branch Davidians of deliberately starting the fire. Listening devices
1254
01:33:57.859 --> 01:34:00.920
that they had planted inside the compound had reportedly picked
1255
01:34:01.000 --> 01:34:04.380
up snippets of incriminating conversations on the morning of the fire,
1256
01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:09.060
such as, start the fire, got some fuel around here,
1257
01:34:09.619 --> 01:34:14.420
and did you pour it yet? One person was recorded
1258
01:34:14.560 --> 01:34:17.609
stating that David Koresh had ordered fuel to be poured
1259
01:34:17.689 --> 01:34:22.109
somewhere within the compound. One survivor would later recall he'd
1260
01:34:22.149 --> 01:34:36.199
heard someone repeatedly commanding, The flames had spread quickly due
1261
01:34:36.260 --> 01:34:39.199
to the poor construction of the building, the strong winds,
1262
01:34:39.560 --> 01:34:42.409
and the holes in the walls made by FBI tanks,
1263
01:34:42.689 --> 01:34:47.149
which further vented the blaze. Additionally, there was a large
1264
01:34:47.189 --> 01:34:52.289
amount of highly combustible materials inside the compound. Not only
1265
01:34:52.350 --> 01:34:55.710
was the building made from highly flammable materials, but the
1266
01:34:55.750 --> 01:34:59.109
Branch Davidians stacked hay bales along the walls to provide
1267
01:34:59.189 --> 01:35:05.739
insulation and protection from external gunfire. While some have theorised
1268
01:35:05.899 --> 01:35:08.810
that the fire could have started accidentally due to tanks
1269
01:35:08.890 --> 01:35:12.949
knocking over lanterns and space heaters, the arson team ultimately
1270
01:35:13.010 --> 01:35:16.189
concluded that the fire was deliberately set by one or
1271
01:35:16.229 --> 01:35:21.649
more persons inside the compound. The arson investigation revealed the
1272
01:35:21.710 --> 01:35:26.310
fire had three points of origin. Fuel containers and other
1273
01:35:26.369 --> 01:35:31.439
chemical accelerants were found near these points. A report released
1274
01:35:31.520 --> 01:35:34.699
by the Department of Justice stated that these locations were
1275
01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:40.149
notably distant from one another. The almost simultaneous conflagration of
1276
01:35:40.189 --> 01:35:43.090
the three fires meant it was not possible for them
1277
01:35:43.149 --> 01:35:46.069
to be accidental or the result of a single ignition.
1278
01:35:47.270 --> 01:35:49.869
The first point was on the second floor near the
1279
01:35:49.909 --> 01:35:52.649
front of the building, the second was on the middle
1280
01:35:52.710 --> 01:35:55.840
of the first floor in the group's dining room, and
1281
01:35:55.939 --> 01:35:58.439
the third was also on the first floor but on
1282
01:35:58.479 --> 01:36:03.210
the right side in the chapel. If the Branch Davidians
1283
01:36:03.270 --> 01:36:06.890
did deliberately light the fire, author Jeff Gwynne makes clear
1284
01:36:07.010 --> 01:36:10.890
that this is not a plan everybody would have known about. Quote,
1285
01:36:11.789 --> 01:36:15.130
Even in the best of times, group communication was difficult
1286
01:36:15.210 --> 01:36:18.430
when everyone was scattered in different parts of the sprawling building.
1287
01:36:19.850 --> 01:36:23.260
David Koresh might have informed as many followers as possible
1288
01:36:23.380 --> 01:36:26.239
that the moment had arrived to die in flames and
1289
01:36:26.340 --> 01:36:29.350
live afterward in glory. but there would still have been
1290
01:36:29.449 --> 01:36:34.939
dozens who had no idea of what was happening. The
1291
01:36:34.979 --> 01:36:38.279
government narrative around this theory has been that the Branch
1292
01:36:38.319 --> 01:36:43.279
Davidians were participating in a mass suicide, but biblical scholar J.
1293
01:36:43.340 --> 01:36:46.880
Philip Arnold has suggested Koresh might have instead seen the
1294
01:36:46.939 --> 01:36:50.140
fire as a kind of holy barrier to protect his
1295
01:36:50.199 --> 01:36:55.300
followers from the FBI. In the Bible's book of Zechariah,
1296
01:36:55.460 --> 01:36:58.739
there is a verse describing how God would save Jerusalem
1297
01:36:58.850 --> 01:37:02.109
by surrounding the city with an impenetrable wall of fire.
1298
01:37:03.329 --> 01:37:06.609
This ties to another biblical passage in the book of Isaiah,
1299
01:37:07.050 --> 01:37:09.949
a book that Koresh was known to draw heavily upon
1300
01:37:10.050 --> 01:37:16.529
in his teachings. Chapter 43, verse 2 promises, When you
1301
01:37:16.569 --> 01:37:19.939
walk through the fire, you will not be burned. The
1302
01:37:20.020 --> 01:37:26.180
flames will not set you ablaze. Some people have rejected
1303
01:37:26.260 --> 01:37:30.590
this narrative instead believing that the FBI was responsible for
1304
01:37:30.649 --> 01:37:36.409
lighting the fires either deliberately or inadvertently. Early into the
1305
01:37:36.470 --> 01:37:40.630
assault two or three rounds of combustible pyrotechnic tear gas
1306
01:37:40.649 --> 01:37:43.909
shells were used in an attempt to penetrate a particular
1307
01:37:43.989 --> 01:37:47.470
corner of the building though they didn't succeed and were
1308
01:37:47.510 --> 01:37:53.239
fired hours before the fire started. The FBI initially denied
1309
01:37:53.319 --> 01:37:56.680
they had been used at all but photographic and audio
1310
01:37:56.739 --> 01:38:01.800
evidence proved that they had been. Conspiracy theories cropped up
1311
01:38:01.899 --> 01:38:06.899
accusing the government of deliberately burning down Mount Carmel. Although
1312
01:38:06.979 --> 01:38:10.020
there is no evidence of this, many have noted that
1313
01:38:10.060 --> 01:38:14.930
the agency's actions on Monday April 19 1993 did create
1314
01:38:14.970 --> 01:38:18.210
the situation that led to the inferno and the enormous
1315
01:38:18.289 --> 01:38:23.109
loss of human life. Moreover, they'd had intelligence about the
1316
01:38:23.149 --> 01:38:25.989
construction of Mount Carmel and had seen the hay bales
1317
01:38:26.050 --> 01:38:30.899
and clothing strewn about inside. Essentially, they had known it
1318
01:38:30.939 --> 01:38:33.609
was a tinderbox and yet they didn't put together a
1319
01:38:33.670 --> 01:38:38.590
fire protection plan when submitting their tear gas proposal. They
1320
01:38:38.649 --> 01:38:42.409
hadn't had firefighting equipment at the ready on April 19
1321
01:38:42.409 --> 01:38:50.300
and were completely unprepared when faced with the flames. The
1322
01:38:50.359 --> 01:38:55.039
fallout of Waco was immense and led to numerous government investigations,
1323
01:38:55.260 --> 01:39:00.380
inquiries and reports. Shortly after the fire, the Department of
1324
01:39:00.460 --> 01:39:05.109
Justice initiated internal reviews of federal actions, including a chronology
1325
01:39:05.149 --> 01:39:08.529
of how the entire siege unfolded and an evaluation of
1326
01:39:08.649 --> 01:39:14.229
tactical decisions. While these reports contained no recommendations that FBI
1327
01:39:14.510 --> 01:39:17.829
agents be disciplined for their actions during the siege, the
1328
01:39:17.909 --> 01:39:23.029
agency did make some adjustments following Waco. A greater emphasis
1329
01:39:23.109 --> 01:39:27.630
was placed on crisis negotiation over tactical responses as well
1330
01:39:27.710 --> 01:39:33.130
as interagency cooperation to avoid conflicting approaches from different units.
1331
01:39:35.069 --> 01:39:37.689
Reflecting on the FBI's approach on April 19 1993 many
1332
01:39:37.729 --> 01:39:43.649
years later, One analyst observed that surrounding the compound with
1333
01:39:43.750 --> 01:39:48.250
tanks while simultaneously imploring people to come out was highly
1334
01:39:48.329 --> 01:39:53.430
unlikely to work. Quote, I've never had a warm, fuzzy
1335
01:39:53.510 --> 01:39:57.869
feeling running toward a tank. Never in my entire life
1336
01:39:57.949 --> 01:40:00.819
have I encountered any mother who would let her child
1337
01:40:00.939 --> 01:40:04.300
do that. I don't think that the manner in which
1338
01:40:04.420 --> 01:40:10.539
the tanks came in created any trust. The Department of Treasury,
1339
01:40:10.739 --> 01:40:14.250
which then oversaw the ATF, conducted its own review of
1340
01:40:14.289 --> 01:40:16.649
the first raid that had triggered the initial loss of
1341
01:40:16.710 --> 01:40:21.449
life and events that followed. It found that the February
1342
01:40:21.449 --> 01:40:25.539
28 raid should not have proceeded after the ATF lost
1343
01:40:25.560 --> 01:40:31.430
the element of surprise. ATF Operation Commander Phil Hojnacki and
1344
01:40:31.489 --> 01:40:36.239
Operation Second-in-Command Chuck Sarabin were found to have been involved
1345
01:40:36.300 --> 01:40:40.199
in altering key documents that were essential to the investigation.
1346
01:40:41.479 --> 01:40:45.579
Both were fired, but later appealed and were reinstated on
1347
01:40:45.600 --> 01:40:49.039
the proviso that they no longer be involved in field operations.
1348
01:40:50.300 --> 01:40:54.939
Three days before the report was released, the ATF Director resigned.
1349
01:40:56.569 --> 01:41:00.289
Following Waco, the ATF began focusing on the worst of
1350
01:41:00.329 --> 01:41:05.149
the worst gun law offenders, namely criminal gangs, rather than
1351
01:41:05.289 --> 01:41:12.310
non-violent gun owners and dealers. From 1993 to 1996, there
1352
01:41:12.329 --> 01:41:16.420
were multiple Congressional hearings and House Committee reports, where members
1353
01:41:16.479 --> 01:41:22.239
of Congress interrogated law enforcement actions. More investigations followed as
1354
01:41:22.319 --> 01:41:27.500
public sentiment evolved over time. In the immediate aftermath of
1355
01:41:27.539 --> 01:41:30.899
the siege, most members of the public sided with the government.
1356
01:41:31.979 --> 01:41:36.180
A CNN poll found that 70% of Americans agreed with
1357
01:41:36.199 --> 01:41:41.039
the FBI's actions. Within a few months, that number had
1358
01:41:41.079 --> 01:41:46.470
dropped to 50%. By the late 1990s, public opinion had
1359
01:41:46.550 --> 01:41:50.130
shifted the other way, with the majority of Americans believing
1360
01:41:50.170 --> 01:41:55.939
the government had started the fire. The widespread scepticism led
1361
01:41:55.979 --> 01:41:58.909
to political pressure and was a factor in yet another
1362
01:41:58.970 --> 01:42:04.010
report being commissioned by the Department of Justice. In November 2000,
1363
01:42:04.010 --> 01:42:09.229
the Danforth Report was released. While it found that there
1364
01:42:09.270 --> 01:42:13.619
was no conspiracy or cover-up surrounding government actions, it did
1365
01:42:13.699 --> 01:42:18.619
conclude that government employees had mishandled and failed to disclose information,
1366
01:42:19.199 --> 01:42:23.270
specifically about the use of combustible shells four hours before
1367
01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:28.029
the fire. The report was received well by the FBI,
1368
01:42:28.270 --> 01:42:32.069
Attorney General Janet Reno, some politicians and much of the
1369
01:42:32.109 --> 01:42:36.930
mainstream media, but it had its critics. They believed that
1370
01:42:36.970 --> 01:42:40.869
it depended too heavily on FBI accounts, with civil liberties
1371
01:42:40.909 --> 01:42:46.649
groups calling it soft. Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark,
1372
01:42:46.770 --> 01:42:49.680
who went on to represent several Branch Davidians and their
1373
01:42:49.720 --> 01:42:55.659
relatives in a civil suit, was openly scathing, stating... History
1374
01:42:55.739 --> 01:42:59.520
will clearly record, I believe, that these assaults on the
1375
01:42:59.560 --> 01:43:03.779
Mount Carmel Church Centre remains the greatest domestic law enforcement
1376
01:43:03.819 --> 01:43:13.390
tragedy in the history of the United States. Ramsey Clark
1377
01:43:13.489 --> 01:43:17.590
wasn't alone in his opinion. The legacy of Waco on
1378
01:43:17.609 --> 01:43:22.829
the American consciousness and US politics has been enormous. As
1379
01:43:22.890 --> 01:43:25.609
well as being furious about the huge loss of life,
1380
01:43:26.029 --> 01:43:28.670
many were angry that the ATF had planned a raid
1381
01:43:28.710 --> 01:43:31.609
in the first place, considering it an assault on the
1382
01:43:31.649 --> 01:43:35.949
Branch Davidians' constitutional rights to bear arms and worship freely.
1383
01:43:37.310 --> 01:43:41.649
Though arguments were made that Koresh was sexually abusing underage
1384
01:43:41.710 --> 01:43:45.609
girls in the compound, opponents to the raid pointed out
1385
01:43:46.090 --> 01:43:52.380
child sexual abuse was not within the ATF's jurisdiction. Waco
1386
01:43:52.439 --> 01:43:56.199
became a catalyst for individuals already mistrustful of the federal
1387
01:43:56.260 --> 01:44:01.579
government and a symbol of government tyranny and overreach. After
1388
01:44:01.619 --> 01:44:04.819
the siege ended, there was a notable rise in far-right
1389
01:44:04.979 --> 01:44:10.479
anti-government militias. Estimates have suggested that before Waco, there were
1390
01:44:10.520 --> 01:44:13.770
a few dozen of these paramilitary groups throughout the entire
1391
01:44:13.930 --> 01:44:20.649
United States. By 1995, there were hundreds. Some people made
1392
01:44:20.689 --> 01:44:24.529
pilgrimages to the Mount Carmel site, which was essentially just
1393
01:44:24.609 --> 01:44:31.760
an open, rubble-strewn field. On the morning of Wednesday, April 19, 1995,
1394
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the second anniversary of the Waco fire, a 26-year-old named
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Timothy McVeigh drove a rented truck to the Alfred P.
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Mora Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City and parked it
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out the front. He lit the two-minute fuse of a
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bomb that he'd constructed and mounted in the back of
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the truck before exiting the vehicle. The bomb detonated at 9.02am,
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destroying the north half of the building. 168 people were killed,
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including 19 children who were attending a daycare centre on
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the second floor. 684 others were injured. McVeigh has claimed
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he wasn't aware there was a daycare centre in the building,
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but his co-conspirator Terry Nichols said they'd both known about
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it and hadn't cared. They'd chosen to target a government
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building at the beginning of a workday as an act
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of vengeance for the Waco and Ruby Ridge sieges. McVeigh
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had been enraged about the federal government's actions at Waco
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and had driven to Mount Carmel during the siege to
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01:45:39.970 --> 01:45:44.819
protest and sell bumper stickers. As someone drawn to white
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supremacist and white nationalist ideology, McVeigh had little in common
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with the Branch Davidians, but he was fiercely anti-government. As
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of the release of this episode, the Oklahoma City bombing
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01:45:58.220 --> 01:46:02.619
remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in US history.
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On the same day that Timothy McVeigh was terrorizing Oklahoma City,
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Clive Doyle, an Australian Branch Davidian who'd survived the blaze,
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held a memorial service at Mount Carmel. Other survivors attended
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01:46:21.939 --> 01:46:24.960
and planted a grove of crape myrtle trees along the
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driveway to honour their dead loved ones. The service was
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also attended by far-right militia members dressed in fatigues. Several
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of them made anti-government speeches. Clive Doyle later told the
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Chicago Tribune, I didn't want any government bashing. I wanted
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it to be a solemn occasion. But, to be honest,
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they kind of took over the pulpit. In subsequent interviews,
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01:46:54.489 --> 01:46:57.890
Clive repeated his concern that the story of Waco had
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01:46:57.909 --> 01:47:04.229
been co-opted by far-right and white supremacist groups. A number
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of surviving Branch Davidians were criminally prosecuted after the siege.
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Twelve were charged with conspiring to murder federal agents as
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well as aiding and abetting those murders. They were also
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01:47:17.399 --> 01:47:22.869
charged with unlawfully possessing and using various firearms. One of
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01:47:22.930 --> 01:47:26.390
the twelve negotiated a plea bargain, but the others went
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01:47:26.430 --> 01:47:30.590
to trial. All of the Branch Davidians were acquitted on
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01:47:30.609 --> 01:47:35.140
the murder charges, however five were convicted of voluntary manslaughter.
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Others received lesser convictions relating to firearm possession and use
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and forcibly resisting arrest. Four were acquitted on all charges.
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Those convicted faced long prison sentences of up to 40 years.
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These were later reduced on appeal, and the last Branch
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01:47:56.350 --> 01:48:00.409
Davidian to be released from prison was British member Livingston Fagan,
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01:48:00.729 --> 01:48:06.600
who was freed in 2007. A number of survivors have
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01:48:06.659 --> 01:48:11.380
written memoirs about their time following David Koresh, including Mark Brough,
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01:48:11.619 --> 01:48:16.909
David Thibodeau and Clive Doyle. Today, David Thibodeau runs a
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01:48:16.970 --> 01:48:20.460
website called Waco Survivors, which is dedicated to him. to
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01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:25.569
archiving the story of Mount Carmel. Mark Brough rejected Koresh's
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01:48:25.649 --> 01:48:29.609
teachings long before the siege in Waco, but Clive Doyle
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01:48:29.670 --> 01:48:33.920
remained loyal to his prophet. He became a kind of
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01:48:34.100 --> 01:48:37.899
unofficial spokesperson for the Branch Davidians and was often approached
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01:48:38.000 --> 01:48:40.760
over the years by people who claimed to be the
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01:48:40.819 --> 01:48:46.270
new embodiment of David Koresh. Clive continued living in Waco
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01:48:46.470 --> 01:48:49.670
and held a weekly Bible study with Sheila Martin, the
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01:48:49.689 --> 01:48:55.909
widow of Wayne Martin, until his death in 2022. Today,
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01:48:56.189 --> 01:48:59.659
small communities of Branch Davidians can still be found scattered
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01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:04.689
throughout America and the world. In 1999, a group of
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01:49:04.770 --> 01:49:09.399
volunteers rebuilt the church at Mount Carmel. It still stands,
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01:49:09.760 --> 01:49:13.260
and a splinter group worships there under the name The Branch,
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01:49:13.600 --> 01:49:17.859
The Lord Our Righteousness. They are led by a former
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01:49:17.920 --> 01:49:21.029
follower named Charles Pace, who left in 1984 and returned
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01:49:21.069 --> 01:49:27.869
after the siege. Pace believes Koresh was a prophet who
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01:49:27.949 --> 01:49:31.510
twisted the Bible's teachings by taking other men's spouses and
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01:49:31.590 --> 01:49:36.060
young girls as his wives. Pace has stated that Koresh
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01:49:36.180 --> 01:49:39.520
was sent by God to commit sin and that he
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01:49:39.560 --> 01:49:44.960
was following God's orders to the very end. The rebuilt
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01:49:45.020 --> 01:49:47.939
chapel at Mount Carmel also operates as a kind of
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01:49:48.060 --> 01:49:52.380
museum about the Waco seed. with anti-government posters pinned to
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01:49:52.399 --> 01:49:57.579
the walls alongside photographs of the victims. Elsewhere on the
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01:49:57.640 --> 01:50:01.939
sprawling 77 acres are mobile homes occupied by the new
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01:50:02.020 --> 01:50:08.050
Branch Davidian community and remnants of the original compound. Visitors
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01:50:08.109 --> 01:50:11.850
to the site can see the original building's concrete foundation,
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01:50:12.289 --> 01:50:15.369
the location of the bunker where women and children sheltered,
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01:50:15.890 --> 01:50:19.250
and some crumpled metal remains of the half-buried school bus.
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01:50:21.140 --> 01:50:25.000
Green fields surrounding the chapel are dotted with several different
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memorials etched in stone. There is one dedicated to the
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01:50:29.680 --> 01:50:32.939
founders of the Branch Davidian movement and all of those
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01:50:33.020 --> 01:50:38.720
lost during the 51-day siege. Two other smaller memorials sit
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01:50:38.819 --> 01:50:42.460
side by side commemorating the victims of the Oklahoma City
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01:50:42.520 --> 01:50:46.359
bombing and the four ATF agents killed in the initial
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01:50:46.439 --> 01:50:52.939
raid at Mount Carmel on February 28, 1993. And another
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01:50:53.090 --> 01:50:56.670
marble stone planted firmly in the ground has been carved
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01:50:56.729 --> 01:51:00.609
with words from the book of Revelation, chapter 6, verses
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01:51:00.609 --> 01:51:05.390
9 to 10. Scripture that describes the opening of the
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01:51:05.489 --> 01:51:10.609
fifth seal. I saw under the altar the souls of
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01:51:10.689 --> 01:51:13.600
them that were slain for the word of God and
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01:51:13.659 --> 01:51:18.000
for the testimony which they held. And they cried with
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01:51:18.039 --> 01:51:23.210
a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true,
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01:51:23.829 --> 01:51:27.489
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them
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01:51:27.510 --> 01:51:29.369
that dwell on the earth?
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01:52:02.239 --> 01:52:03.670
Thank you very much.