WEBVTT
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I just remember always wanting to be a mom and be married and kind of live this lifestyle for as long as I can remember.
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So um yeah, I'd say it's pretty close to what I envisioned for myself.
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And we love it, huh?
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At 27, the young mum has chosen to live according to gender roles.
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There you go.
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And be the perfect wife.
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Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Blessed and Stressed, the podcast where we discuss faith and politics across the pond.
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Our second to last episode before we break for summer, and we're discussing a topic that is, at least here in the US, really buzzy, especially with the clutch of books that have just come out.
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The topic is trad wives.
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Are they actually doing very much?
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Is it an overblown sensation?
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Is this just a US American thing?
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Shay and I are going to dive into all of that as well as the political and religious aspects of these trad wives.
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So welcome, Shay.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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Great to be back with you.
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It's great to be back.
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It's great to be back.
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So where to begin?
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I mean, okay, let me just tell you what how things are in the states right now.
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Okay.
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Every time I live related to my research or my book, somebody in the audience asks about trad wives.
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Really?
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Oh, yeah.
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And this has been happening since 2024.
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And it's always like, but what about the trad wives?
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Aren't you getting into that?
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And I have to just say from the off, rarely up front, my irritation with this line of questioning is that Tradwives is an extreme and relatively fringe phenomenon.
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And yet it is what people want to talk about.
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But when we're talking about trad wives, we're not talking about a whole host of other conservative women who are doing arguably much more important political and cultural work.
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So it's kind of a diversion, I think.
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And I guess I'll just be upfront and say that's that's my irritation, but we can get a little bit more into the debate around how important they really are.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Uh this trad white phenomenon.
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Now, I think it is obviously your country just takes the biscuit with quite a few of these things.
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So obviously it's raging in the United States.
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But I have seen them, and I often feel with these things what happens in general human behavior is that we swing one way, i.e., we have made a lot of progress in terms of women's rights, and actually, people forget how recent this is that most of human history, women have been second-class citizens not working and basically having no choice but to be a trad wife and relying on men for money, shelter, the whole thing.
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It's a very recent phenomenon that we are able to do to not need men at all in order to do things, and there will always be a backlash to that.
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And also, people love the shock factor, okay, especially in the in the age of social media.
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They love going on social media and doing the complete opposite of what everyone thinks they should be doing.
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So that's why people are just fascinated.
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It's almost like it's look, it's like looking at a trad wife is like looking at a car accident on the road.
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That's the way I see it.
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You know, when you just gore patterns, you can't stop looking at the car crash that has happened on the side of the road because you're like, I can't believe this has happened.
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That's what they are.
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That's what they are.
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Well, and actually, to that point, when I searched recently some of the trad wives, I noticed that the people that were following them were not my social media connections who are right-wing women.
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They're actually my left-leaning friends that are following them.
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And they're doing it from that car crash perspective of not being able to look away.
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And I think there's five books that have uh recently come out or are coming out this summer on Tradwives, mostly fiction books.
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So it's it's part of the zeitgeist.
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It's it's hugely popular right now as a conversation point when it comes to pop culture.
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That's been a headline in so many magazines and newspapers.
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Um, but again, I'm not sure how substantive their following actually is in terms of women who are watching them and thinking, I'm going to do this.
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No, I there are there will always be some.
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There'll be a few who are probably quite traditional anyway.
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And I think there is a part of sort of discourse when it comes to women that, you know, we talk about it often.
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You and I work, we have kids, and there's this expectation that women can sort of have it all, we can have these high-powered jobs, we can have kids, blah, blah.
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And it's very difficult to have all of these things going on at the same time.
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Something has to give.
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You might have to spend less time with your children, you might have to outsource care.
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All of these things are coming to the equation.
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Or your husband or partner will have to step up and take on more of a role, all of that kind of thing.
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And there are some women who are just going, you know what, forget this.
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This is too difficult.
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This juggle is too difficult.
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Let's maybe just keep it simple and go back to what we were doing before.
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Now, this again, this type of mentality, it doesn't surprise me because we are on the Blessed and Distress podcast.
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In the Bible itself, when the Israelites were removed from their slave slave days, their servitude in Egypt, and they crossed the Red Sea and the Lord parted the Red Sea for them to go to the promised land.
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Did they not grumble?
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There were many of them who said, Let us go back, let us go back to slavery.
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At which point some of them must be looking at them going, sorry, sorry, sorry, let's just let's just stop here.
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You want us to go back to where we were before in the hundreds of years worth of slave labor where we were treated like crap, because you're you can't cope with this newfound freedom or you know the promises that God have made you.
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So to me, it doesn't surprise me at all that some people would like us to go back to the way that you're suffering before because they have short memories.
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Well, and because it was simpler in some ways.
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Like your role was very straightforward.
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I always reference my colleagues at UCL, Catherine Twamley, who is a professor of sociology.
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She did a study looking at marital satisfaction.
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She looked at queer couples as well as straight couples.
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But what she found in the straight couples is that those that had traditional gender roles, whereby the woman stayed home, she took care of the home and the children, the husband worked, they were the happiest.
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Really?
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This is not information that any of us want to hear.
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These were not the results that we want.
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I don't think these were the results that Catherine wanted.
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But that was what her study showed.
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Those were the happening, they ranked the highest on the marital satisfaction.
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And when I ask her about this, um, you know, as a fellow feminist, her answer is, you know, it's simpler.
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And it is in a lot of ways.
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As you mentioned, we are still fairly new at sharing the division of labor at home and with the children with our partners.
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And there aren't clear-cut rules for that.
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We're inventing it as we go in a lot of ways.
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Whereas if you have this really clear dividing line where I'm in charge of this and you're in charge of that, and it's super clear, I could see how that's simpler.
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That is true.
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And that in a weird sort of way, that doesn't surprise me.
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However, I would say that anecdotally, in though that kind of relationship that you have described in a modern city like London or New York or wherever, I would be really interested in the data looking at geography.
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Because that sort of setup is very difficult to maintain in a sort of city area that's quite cosmopolitan.
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You will find that a lot of those women towards the end start to resent it when you get divorces affairs when husband was away from work and she was the one who was looking after the home, but all of a sudden you realize he's sleeping with three or four different people when he's not with you.
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Well, when that happens, uh, I would be very interested to see.
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Uh, it's just there are lots of risks associated with that lifestyle, also.
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Sure.
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And I think there are some women who are genuinely very happy with that, but we've got to the point now where actually a lot of women want to use their brains, they think that they have something to contribute to society.
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And I know it's again it's all anecdotal, but I have lots of friends, all of my friends are pursuing their own careers and pursuing things that they want to do.
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None of them are in that traditional role, and they have parity with their partners, which they they appreciate.
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Some do less, some I definitely have some friends, a few other friends who do less who are happier, they're happy with their husband or partner having a higher paying job, and they do like a little thing on the side, and they're very happy with that, and that's fine.
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That's not me, but they are happier, they are happier with that.
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So, and I respect that.
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If that's what works for you guys as a couple, absolutely fine.
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But they're definitely not trad wives, and they definitely rule the roost when it comes to a lot of decision making.
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Well, and that's the other sort of misnomer with the idea of a trad wife, is that they hold a tremendous amount of power when it comes to the household and the child rearing and the decision making around that.
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Not to mention that they actually are raking in quite a lot of money.
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But I just wanted to go back to something a recent piece of research that came out of King's College London found, and I'm quoting from it, the trad wife phenomenon isn't a return to tradition, it's a plea for balance, more the aesthetic of simplicity, leisure, and escape from the pressures of increasingly demanding yet insecure work.
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And I think there again, that speaks to your point of how not only is the sharing of household labor messy at times with partners, but you women are realizing, or we have realized for a long time, we can't have it all.
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And so the idea of having children, having a career, and having very little support by way of family support or outsourcing of care and housework is burdensome and it's hard.
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And it and I can understand that sort of escapism, that fantasy that comes with looking at trad wife's online and being like, oh, if I could just frolic in a field in a milkmaid dress and you know milk a cow, then it would be so much easier.
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It would be easier.
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It would be easier, but you would also your brain would just turn to mush.
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In my head, it would turn to mush.
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I just could never, ever, ever, ever do it.
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And also I feel a responsibility towards my daughters and my sons, actually, and my son, that I've got to show them.
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I think actually, especially for my son, I feel quite a responsibility to show him what women contribute.
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Yeah.
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Because he's grown up in a household where I work and I contribute financially, emotionally, and spiritually.
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I I contribute to all of those things.
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And I would not like to show him a model where I only contribute really in one of those ways.
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Sure.
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Yeah, and I agree.
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And I mean, there's research showing that as well, how important it is for boys growing up to see their mother's work and how it is tied to their conceptions of equality when they get older.
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Um, that's not to say that if you're a woman and you don't work outside the home, that your kid, your son is gonna be a misogynist and join the manosphere.
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No.
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But I think there's a very compelling reason for boys to see their mother working and to see that that is women's responsibilities and roles as well.
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They they have this multifaceted nature to them.
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Um I've had two, I have had two long-term relationships, one long-term relationship before my husband, and both of them had with mothers who had very high-powered careers.
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And I think I was gonna ask you.
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I was gonna ask about your husband's mother, and and my husband's mother also uh had a career the whole time that she was raising her children.
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And um, her, my in-law, my brother-in-law, is married to a woman who has a very high-powered career as well.
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So I I do think, at least anecdotally, in my case, there is a strong link with my husband believing that housework and child rearing should be shared.
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And because he saw that growing up, and that's a model we want to pass down to our children as well.
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Exactly the same.
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That's why we get on.
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I know.
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And that's why I really adore your husband.
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I like yours also.
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Yeah.
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Well, there you go.
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Um, so just one final point on this sort of theory, my theory, that the trad wife phenomenon is overblown.
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It's not turning women into regressive roles.
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Another report came out recently showing that there's no evidence of younger women turning back to traditional roles.
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And instead, Gen Z women in particular in the US and the UK continue to hold more progressive attitudes when it comes to gender roles and politics in general.
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So again, I wonder do the trad wives actually have that much influence, or is it just kind of a car crash, a grotesque car crash for liberal people and liberal women in particular to look at and there will be some people who agree with them, but I think for the most part it is just car crash watching.
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But also things, the thing is, things have changed fundamentally now in terms of education of women and frankly, not need just law, just basic stuff has changed.
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You don't need a man to buy a house, you do not need a man to provide for you.
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We are not, we are in 2026, these are the facts, so you're never going to get a full return to that way of thinking unless we were to go back to a system where you had to.
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I the closest I can think of is the Saudi system where you have to ask a man's permission to do certain things.
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But I don't see any government bringing in any law anytime soon in America or in the UK where women would have to ask men's permission to do things.
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And it is only then where you really could get a shift back to that sort of trad wife phenomenon, which is why those Christian nationalists in America really scare me because they're talking about repealing the 19th Amendment as in stopping women from voting.
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Then we're in very, very dangerous territory.
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Yeah.
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Well, and this is actually what I think is the most dangerous about the trad wife phenomenon, not the effect that it could be having on women, because I don't think it's having a big impact in that way.
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I think the actual risk is the impact it's having on men.
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And trad wife as a word and a concept actually came out of the manosphere.
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It was coming out of incel culture, um, speaking about what they wanted in life.
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They wanted a trad wife, and from there it kind of took off.
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And I think it's perhaps seen as attractive and aspirational for the growing young right-wing men.
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And that's what I find the most pernicious about trad wife phenomenon.
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Um, not its impact on women or converting women to move to a rural community and milk a cow.
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But they're very, they're very confused because I'd haven't seen any of them say, for example, that Candace Owens doing her job is a problem.
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I haven't seen any of them say that Erica Kirk, when she was working and had her own channels or whatever, even when Charlie Kirk was alive, I never saw them complaining about that.
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So when it was other Chris, when it was other right-wing men who had wives who were they don't even complain about Melania Trump doing a movie.
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Well, I mean, remember Candace Owens, though, is a full-time mom and a part-time podcaster.
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Yeah, that's her that's her bio on Instagram, uh, or at least it was last time I I checked.
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She she really strapped, she really wants, she wants to have it all.
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She, you know, she's got the pictures of herself barefoot and pregnant and posts that and says, Here I am breakfit, uh pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen.
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Like this is the dream.
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And then at the same time, she's a media icon to so many people and has a massive following and influence when it comes to and an entire team filming and editing and putting out her content.
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She's making documentaries and films, and so anyway, I think you know, she really underscores the hypocrisy as well in the trad wife uh movement, which is they're not traditional wives because they're making a ton of money from what they're doing, and what they're doing is labor.
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Um, if you really want to be a trad wife, then you would be offline.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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But they can't do that because they're making too much money supporting their households.
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Well, one of them did do it, and that was Alina Kate Petit, who is a UK trad wife who was one of the first.
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She was working in London, she had a busy career, she left it and moved to Cheltenham and then moved out to the outskirts of Cheltenham to a rural community and posted about loving the 1950s.
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She dressed like a 1950s housewife, she baked pies and posted pictures of all of that.
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And she's an outspoken Christian.
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She started something called the Darling Academy, which was a manners school for women.
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But she and she became really popular.
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Um, the BBC did a piece on her in 2020.
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She stepped away from it all.
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She actually switched Instagram for a period, moved to Australia.
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She now has an account again, something like 2,000 followers.
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Like she purposely did not want to have paid advertisements.
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She didn't want to partner with companies.
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She wanted to move away from she had wrote a book and was offered to get it published by a big Christian publisher.
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She said no.
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She wanted to self-publish.
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So, you know, if if give credit where credit's due, she is the original and true trad wife who who stood who who stood away from the fame to actually live it out.
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And um is rarely mentioned anymore.
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And she's one of your homegrown types.
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Well, there you go.
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She suddenly I think she suddenly realized it was a job that she was working.
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Well, that's true.
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That's true.
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So we have to give her some credit for that.
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Yeah.
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But the fact that you, you know, we hadn't even heard of her before today says something about sort of her scope as well.
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It does.
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It does.
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I mean, the whole thing, if I'm being honest, sounds like hell to me, but you know, each to their own.
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If that's what genuinely makes them happy, baking pies and running around a field, then you know, you do you.
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.200
Just like, just like the polyamory brigade.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.160
They tell me they're not.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:53.599
We haven't even talked about, you know, the nine children that they have as a trad wife as well, and kind of the pressure to keep reproducing and what that does to your body.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.599
Yeah, I mean, that's that's also just bizarre.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:19:59.680
Um lot of home births.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:01.839
Oh, yeah, a lot of I yeah, I don't know.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:15.680
But you know, that there as those the two sides of that spectrum, the polyamory brigade who think that they can have four relations, four fully fledged relationships, and then the other side where they just want to pump out children one after the other.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.160
Both of them sound like hell to me.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:24.799
Well, what's interesting about the tribe-wives, which we haven't really gotten into, is that all of the ones that I've come across are Christian.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.160
A lot of them are Mormon.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.079
Those are kind of the original, but they are all some flavor of Christian.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:43.680
And I think that's telling because embodying traditional roles and characteristics uh is certainly promoted within certain forms of Christianity.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:54.480
So it's not a massive leap to go from a mainline, well, let's not even say mainline, to go from a mega evangelical church, their view on gender, to a trad wife.
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.559
Yes, it's a leap, but it's not a massive one.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.039
Yeah.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:17.200
But even in uh churches, you know, that you and I went to uh more evangelical churches where that's not necessarily the narrative, I always found that it was almost implicit because a new vicar would be introduced, and then they would bring up the wife, and they would basically say, This is the vicar's wife.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.000
And I remember always thinking, well, what's her job?
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:22.240
And they would never they never took on a job.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.960
It was almost like the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's wife, or the president and the first lady.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:34.480
That's the way they were put forward, as if, of course, they can't have a job because they must support their husband in their in his vicar role.
00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:41.359
And I always and I remember there was one, there was one vicar who came up whose um wife was a physiotherapist.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.440
And they actually said she was a physiotherapist.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.359
And I remember being shocked, I was like, uh huh.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:53.920
There is one who's allowed to basically keep on keep her job on, and she's a physio, and she's gonna continue to be a physio, which was extraordinary.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.759
So they may not say the trad wife thing, but in reality, what's happening is that.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440
They're all giving up work to support their vicar husband.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.759
And that's what gets paraded on the stage.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.480
Although, I mean, I think that's and celebrated.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:09.519
And celebrated.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:23.680
Well, and that you know, the f the famous thing at the mega church that you and I both attended at one point was that um it would be so-and-so is the wife of that would be her introductory bio.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:35.519
Um whereas for the male leaders or even speakers, it was, you know, his actual bio, what he has done in the world and his qualifications.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:36.480
And yeah, yeah.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:44.720
So I think there's a certain privileging and um celebrating of uh traditional roles in that environment.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.920
But then the counter to that was that they also had a lot of female speakers on their own.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:50.640
That's true.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:23:04.240
But the the dip the the hypocrisy there was that they didn't then bring on the female speaker's husband and say, This is the this is the husband who has quit his job to support her speaking, which that never happened.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:05.279
It never happened that way around.
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.039
It was like female speaker on her own.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.160
Great, superb.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:10.240
Forget, I don't, we don't even know what the man is.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.880
But the man, he has to obviously have a wife supporting supporting the vicar role.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:15.599
Yeah.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:37.920
And I so I, you know, I think the evangelical church and even the Anglican church to some extent is still promotes traditional gender roles, even if that's not explicit, there are implicit ways that that happens, and that leads us down a slippery slope, which I is the trad wife phenomenon.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:45.359
And it's not a coincidence that they're all Christian, and certainly not a coincidence that most of them are Mormon, and that's a whole nother topic.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.960
Um, any final concluding thoughts on the trad wives?
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:59.359
I just think you know, there's always, as I said at the beginning, there's always going to be a reaction to progress.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:00.720
That's my thinking.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:07.039
So whenever you progress in one area, someone somewhere will always want to take you back.
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.599
And often it can be people from your own side.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.640
I, you know, there's a lot of black people who, you know, especially in your country, been through the civil rights era.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:23.680
And again, it's like gauking at a car crash when you have a black person who is essentially saying, take me back to Jim Crow laws.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:32.000
Essentially, they're like, We were better off under slavery, or we were better off when people were asking us to go to different toilets and drink from different taps.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.079
And everyone goes, Sorry, what?
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.200
What are you talking about?
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:46.559
But there's always one, and you know, sometimes there's more than one, you know, there's more than one, and they they vary in shades, but there's always someone who wants to take you back.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.039
So I can't really take them that seriously.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:55.839
My role is really just to make sure that there's not enough of them to actually take us back because I don't want to go back.
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.480
Uh, there is no back for me.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.319
Yeah, I was never back there, and I don't want to go.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.400
I want to go forward.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:05.119
Forward.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:05.599
Forward.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.119
That's the direction, that's the direction we're aiming for on this podcast.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:09.680
Exactly.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:15.200
Okay, well, just a reminder to listeners we have one more episode before summer.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.079
I'm going to be in London on June 2nd.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.359
I'm doing a book event.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.160
It is nearly sold out at UCL at 5:30 p.m.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.279
June 2nd.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:31.279
If you are around or if you're near Cambridge, I'm doing a lunchtime event there also on June 2nd.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.279
You can get the details on my website.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.480
I would love to say hi in person on my whirlwind book tour.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.359
And we will see you all next time.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.960
See you soon.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.480
Goodbye.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:45.359
Bye.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:09.199
I just remember always wanting to be a mom and be married and kind of live this lifestyle for as long as I can remember.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:15.439
So um yeah, I'd say it's pretty close to what I envisioned for myself.
00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:17.839
And we love it, huh?
00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:22.800
At 27, the young mum has chosen to live according to gender roles.
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:24.079
There you go.
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:26.960
And be the perfect wife.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:43.200
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Blessed and Stressed, the podcast where we discuss faith and politics across the pond.
00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:57.759
Our second to last episode before we break for summer, and we're discussing a topic that is, at least here in the US, really buzzy, especially with the clutch of books that have just come out.
00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.000
The topic is trad wives.
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Are they actually doing very much?
00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:04.640
Is it an overblown sensation?
00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:07.200
Is this just a US American thing?
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:13.760
Shay and I are going to dive into all of that as well as the political and religious aspects of these trad wives.
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So welcome, Shay.
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:16.000
Hello.
00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:16.400
Hello.
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Great to be back with you.
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It's great to be back.
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:20.480
It's great to be back.
00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:22.239
So where to begin?
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I mean, okay, let me just tell you what how things are in the states right now.
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Okay.
00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:33.840
Every time I live related to my research or my book, somebody in the audience asks about trad wives.
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Really?
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Oh, yeah.
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And this has been happening since 2024.
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And it's always like, but what about the trad wives?
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Aren't you getting into that?
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And I have to just say from the off, rarely up front, my irritation with this line of questioning is that Tradwives is an extreme and relatively fringe phenomenon.
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And yet it is what people want to talk about.
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:15.919
But when we're talking about trad wives, we're not talking about a whole host of other conservative women who are doing arguably much more important political and cultural work.
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So it's kind of a diversion, I think.
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:28.719
And I guess I'll just be upfront and say that's that's my irritation, but we can get a little bit more into the debate around how important they really are.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Uh this trad white phenomenon.
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Now, I think it is obviously your country just takes the biscuit with quite a few of these things.
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So obviously it's raging in the United States.
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But I have seen them, and I often feel with these things what happens in general human behavior is that we swing one way, i.e., we have made a lot of progress in terms of women's rights, and actually, people forget how recent this is that most of human history, women have been second-class citizens not working and basically having no choice but to be a trad wife and relying on men for money, shelter, the whole thing.
00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:18.560
It's a very recent phenomenon that we are able to do to not need men at all in order to do things, and there will always be a backlash to that.
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And also, people love the shock factor, okay, especially in the in the age of social media.
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They love going on social media and doing the complete opposite of what everyone thinks they should be doing.
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So that's why people are just fascinated.
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It's almost like it's look, it's like looking at a trad wife is like looking at a car accident on the road.
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That's the way I see it.
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You know, when you just gore patterns, you can't stop looking at the car crash that has happened on the side of the road because you're like, I can't believe this has happened.
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That's what they are.
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That's what they are.
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Well, and actually, to that point, when I searched recently some of the trad wives, I noticed that the people that were following them were not my social media connections who are right-wing women.
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They're actually my left-leaning friends that are following them.
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And they're doing it from that car crash perspective of not being able to look away.
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And I think there's five books that have uh recently come out or are coming out this summer on Tradwives, mostly fiction books.
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So it's it's part of the zeitgeist.
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It's it's hugely popular right now as a conversation point when it comes to pop culture.
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That's been a headline in so many magazines and newspapers.
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Um, but again, I'm not sure how substantive their following actually is in terms of women who are watching them and thinking, I'm going to do this.
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No, I there are there will always be some.
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There'll be a few who are probably quite traditional anyway.
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And I think there is a part of sort of discourse when it comes to women that, you know, we talk about it often.
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You and I work, we have kids, and there's this expectation that women can sort of have it all, we can have these high-powered jobs, we can have kids, blah, blah.
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And it's very difficult to have all of these things going on at the same time.
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Something has to give.
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You might have to spend less time with your children, you might have to outsource care.
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All of these things are coming to the equation.
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Or your husband or partner will have to step up and take on more of a role, all of that kind of thing.
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And there are some women who are just going, you know what, forget this.
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This is too difficult.
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This juggle is too difficult.
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Let's maybe just keep it simple and go back to what we were doing before.
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Now, this again, this type of mentality, it doesn't surprise me because we are on the Blessed and Distress podcast.
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In the Bible itself, when the Israelites were removed from their slave slave days, their servitude in Egypt, and they crossed the Red Sea and the Lord parted the Red Sea for them to go to the promised land.
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Did they not grumble?
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There were many of them who said, Let us go back, let us go back to slavery.
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At which point some of them must be looking at them going, sorry, sorry, sorry, let's just let's just stop here.
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You want us to go back to where we were before in the hundreds of years worth of slave labor where we were treated like crap, because you're you can't cope with this newfound freedom or you know the promises that God have made you.
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So to me, it doesn't surprise me at all that some people would like us to go back to the way that you're suffering before because they have short memories.
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Well, and because it was simpler in some ways.
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Like your role was very straightforward.
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I always reference my colleagues at UCL, Catherine Twamley, who is a professor of sociology.
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She did a study looking at marital satisfaction.
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She looked at queer couples as well as straight couples.
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But what she found in the straight couples is that those that had traditional gender roles, whereby the woman stayed home, she took care of the home and the children, the husband worked, they were the happiest.
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Really?
00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:08.879
This is not information that any of us want to hear.
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These were not the results that we want.
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I don't think these were the results that Catherine wanted.
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But that was what her study showed.
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Those were the happening, they ranked the highest on the marital satisfaction.
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And when I ask her about this, um, you know, as a fellow feminist, her answer is, you know, it's simpler.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.319
And it is in a lot of ways.
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As you mentioned, we are still fairly new at sharing the division of labor at home and with the children with our partners.
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And there aren't clear-cut rules for that.
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We're inventing it as we go in a lot of ways.
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Whereas if you have this really clear dividing line where I'm in charge of this and you're in charge of that, and it's super clear, I could see how that's simpler.
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:52.959
That is true.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.000
And that in a weird sort of way, that doesn't surprise me.
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However, I would say that anecdotally, in though that kind of relationship that you have described in a modern city like London or New York or wherever, I would be really interested in the data looking at geography.
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Because that sort of setup is very difficult to maintain in a sort of city area that's quite cosmopolitan.
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You will find that a lot of those women towards the end start to resent it when you get divorces affairs when husband was away from work and she was the one who was looking after the home, but all of a sudden you realize he's sleeping with three or four different people when he's not with you.
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Well, when that happens, uh, I would be very interested to see.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:51.279
Uh, it's just there are lots of risks associated with that lifestyle, also.
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:51.600
Sure.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:09:04.960
And I think there are some women who are genuinely very happy with that, but we've got to the point now where actually a lot of women want to use their brains, they think that they have something to contribute to society.
00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:15.200
And I know it's again it's all anecdotal, but I have lots of friends, all of my friends are pursuing their own careers and pursuing things that they want to do.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:22.639
None of them are in that traditional role, and they have parity with their partners, which they they appreciate.
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Some do less, some I definitely have some friends, a few other friends who do less who are happier, they're happy with their husband or partner having a higher paying job, and they do like a little thing on the side, and they're very happy with that, and that's fine.
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.080
That's not me, but they are happier, they are happier with that.
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So, and I respect that.
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If that's what works for you guys as a couple, absolutely fine.
00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:52.879
But they're definitely not trad wives, and they definitely rule the roost when it comes to a lot of decision making.
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Well, and that's the other sort of misnomer with the idea of a trad wife, is that they hold a tremendous amount of power when it comes to the household and the child rearing and the decision making around that.
00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.799
Not to mention that they actually are raking in quite a lot of money.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:25.039
But I just wanted to go back to something a recent piece of research that came out of King's College London found, and I'm quoting from it, the trad wife phenomenon isn't a return to tradition, it's a plea for balance, more the aesthetic of simplicity, leisure, and escape from the pressures of increasingly demanding yet insecure work.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:38.240
And I think there again, that speaks to your point of how not only is the sharing of household labor messy at times with partners, but you women are realizing, or we have realized for a long time, we can't have it all.
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And so the idea of having children, having a career, and having very little support by way of family support or outsourcing of care and housework is burdensome and it's hard.
00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:13.919
And it and I can understand that sort of escapism, that fantasy that comes with looking at trad wife's online and being like, oh, if I could just frolic in a field in a milkmaid dress and you know milk a cow, then it would be so much easier.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:15.919
It would be easier.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.759
It would be easier, but you would also your brain would just turn to mush.
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.440
In my head, it would turn to mush.
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.240
I just could never, ever, ever, ever do it.
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:31.519
And also I feel a responsibility towards my daughters and my sons, actually, and my son, that I've got to show them.
00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:38.240
I think actually, especially for my son, I feel quite a responsibility to show him what women contribute.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:38.639
Yeah.
00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:46.559
Because he's grown up in a household where I work and I contribute financially, emotionally, and spiritually.
00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:48.480
I I contribute to all of those things.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:53.679
And I would not like to show him a model where I only contribute really in one of those ways.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:54.240
Sure.
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.279
Yeah, and I agree.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:05.919
And I mean, there's research showing that as well, how important it is for boys growing up to see their mother's work and how it is tied to their conceptions of equality when they get older.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:13.039
Um, that's not to say that if you're a woman and you don't work outside the home, that your kid, your son is gonna be a misogynist and join the manosphere.
00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:13.200
No.
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:23.120
But I think there's a very compelling reason for boys to see their mother working and to see that that is women's responsibilities and roles as well.
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:27.039
They they have this multifaceted nature to them.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:40.399
Um I've had two, I have had two long-term relationships, one long-term relationship before my husband, and both of them had with mothers who had very high-powered careers.
00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.639
And I think I was gonna ask you.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:51.519
I was gonna ask about your husband's mother, and and my husband's mother also uh had a career the whole time that she was raising her children.
00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:57.840
And um, her, my in-law, my brother-in-law, is married to a woman who has a very high-powered career as well.
00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:06.879
So I I do think, at least anecdotally, in my case, there is a strong link with my husband believing that housework and child rearing should be shared.
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:12.399
And because he saw that growing up, and that's a model we want to pass down to our children as well.
00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:13.360
Exactly the same.
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:14.559
That's why we get on.
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:15.600
I know.
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.919
And that's why I really adore your husband.
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.600
I like yours also.
00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:20.000
Yeah.
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:21.200
Well, there you go.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:28.000
Um, so just one final point on this sort of theory, my theory, that the trad wife phenomenon is overblown.
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:33.200
It's not turning women into regressive roles.
00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:40.320
Another report came out recently showing that there's no evidence of younger women turning back to traditional roles.
00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:50.320
And instead, Gen Z women in particular in the US and the UK continue to hold more progressive attitudes when it comes to gender roles and politics in general.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:12.320
So again, I wonder do the trad wives actually have that much influence, or is it just kind of a car crash, a grotesque car crash for liberal people and liberal women in particular to look at and there will be some people who agree with them, but I think for the most part it is just car crash watching.
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:24.559
But also things, the thing is, things have changed fundamentally now in terms of education of women and frankly, not need just law, just basic stuff has changed.
00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:29.039
You don't need a man to buy a house, you do not need a man to provide for you.
00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:40.879
We are not, we are in 2026, these are the facts, so you're never going to get a full return to that way of thinking unless we were to go back to a system where you had to.
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:47.360
I the closest I can think of is the Saudi system where you have to ask a man's permission to do certain things.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:58.720
But I don't see any government bringing in any law anytime soon in America or in the UK where women would have to ask men's permission to do things.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:12.000
And it is only then where you really could get a shift back to that sort of trad wife phenomenon, which is why those Christian nationalists in America really scare me because they're talking about repealing the 19th Amendment as in stopping women from voting.
00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.639
Then we're in very, very dangerous territory.
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.200
Yeah.
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:25.600
Well, and this is actually what I think is the most dangerous about the trad wife phenomenon, not the effect that it could be having on women, because I don't think it's having a big impact in that way.
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:30.080
I think the actual risk is the impact it's having on men.
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:36.159
And trad wife as a word and a concept actually came out of the manosphere.
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:41.919
It was coming out of incel culture, um, speaking about what they wanted in life.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.519
They wanted a trad wife, and from there it kind of took off.
00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:57.679
And I think it's perhaps seen as attractive and aspirational for the growing young right-wing men.
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:03.519
And that's what I find the most pernicious about trad wife phenomenon.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:10.080
Um, not its impact on women or converting women to move to a rural community and milk a cow.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:18.799
But they're very, they're very confused because I'd haven't seen any of them say, for example, that Candace Owens doing her job is a problem.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:27.360
I haven't seen any of them say that Erica Kirk, when she was working and had her own channels or whatever, even when Charlie Kirk was alive, I never saw them complaining about that.
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:35.200
So when it was other Chris, when it was other right-wing men who had wives who were they don't even complain about Melania Trump doing a movie.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.240
Well, I mean, remember Candace Owens, though, is a full-time mom and a part-time podcaster.
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:47.679
Yeah, that's her that's her bio on Instagram, uh, or at least it was last time I I checked.
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.360
She she really strapped, she really wants, she wants to have it all.
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:58.480
She, you know, she's got the pictures of herself barefoot and pregnant and posts that and says, Here I am breakfit, uh pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen.
00:16:58.639 --> 00:16:59.759
Like this is the dream.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:13.759
And then at the same time, she's a media icon to so many people and has a massive following and influence when it comes to and an entire team filming and editing and putting out her content.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:31.519
She's making documentaries and films, and so anyway, I think you know, she really underscores the hypocrisy as well in the trad wife uh movement, which is they're not traditional wives because they're making a ton of money from what they're doing, and what they're doing is labor.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:35.440
Um, if you really want to be a trad wife, then you would be offline.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:36.720
Exactly.
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:37.440
Exactly.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.799
But they can't do that because they're making too much money supporting their households.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:50.000
Well, one of them did do it, and that was Alina Kate Petit, who is a UK trad wife who was one of the first.
00:17:50.799 --> 00:18:04.559
She was working in London, she had a busy career, she left it and moved to Cheltenham and then moved out to the outskirts of Cheltenham to a rural community and posted about loving the 1950s.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.200
She dressed like a 1950s housewife, she baked pies and posted pictures of all of that.
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.440
And she's an outspoken Christian.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.279
She started something called the Darling Academy, which was a manners school for women.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.200
But she and she became really popular.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.000
Um, the BBC did a piece on her in 2020.
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:25.279
She stepped away from it all.
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.160
She actually switched Instagram for a period, moved to Australia.
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.240
She now has an account again, something like 2,000 followers.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.839
Like she purposely did not want to have paid advertisements.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.599
She didn't want to partner with companies.
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.799
She wanted to move away from she had wrote a book and was offered to get it published by a big Christian publisher.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:47.599
She said no.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.440
She wanted to self-publish.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:19:00.799
So, you know, if if give credit where credit's due, she is the original and true trad wife who who stood who who stood away from the fame to actually live it out.
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:04.160
And um is rarely mentioned anymore.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.359
And she's one of your homegrown types.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.559
Well, there you go.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.759
She suddenly I think she suddenly realized it was a job that she was working.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:12.960
Well, that's true.
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:13.680
That's true.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:15.519
So we have to give her some credit for that.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:15.920
Yeah.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:23.279
But the fact that you, you know, we hadn't even heard of her before today says something about sort of her scope as well.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:23.920
It does.
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:24.400
It does.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:31.359
I mean, the whole thing, if I'm being honest, sounds like hell to me, but you know, each to their own.
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:40.079
If that's what genuinely makes them happy, baking pies and running around a field, then you know, you do you.
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.200
Just like, just like the polyamory brigade.
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.160
They tell me they're not.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:53.599
We haven't even talked about, you know, the nine children that they have as a trad wife as well, and kind of the pressure to keep reproducing and what that does to your body.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.599
Yeah, I mean, that's that's also just bizarre.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:19:59.680
Um lot of home births.
00:19:59.920 --> 00:20:01.839
Oh, yeah, a lot of I yeah, I don't know.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:15.680
But you know, that there as those the two sides of that spectrum, the polyamory brigade who think that they can have four relations, four fully fledged relationships, and then the other side where they just want to pump out children one after the other.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.160
Both of them sound like hell to me.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:24.799
Well, what's interesting about the tribe-wives, which we haven't really gotten into, is that all of the ones that I've come across are Christian.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.160
A lot of them are Mormon.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.079
Those are kind of the original, but they are all some flavor of Christian.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:43.680
And I think that's telling because embodying traditional roles and characteristics uh is certainly promoted within certain forms of Christianity.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:54.480
So it's not a massive leap to go from a mainline, well, let's not even say mainline, to go from a mega evangelical church, their view on gender, to a trad wife.
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.559
Yes, it's a leap, but it's not a massive one.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.039
Yeah.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:17.200
But even in uh churches, you know, that you and I went to uh more evangelical churches where that's not necessarily the narrative, I always found that it was almost implicit because a new vicar would be introduced, and then they would bring up the wife, and they would basically say, This is the vicar's wife.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.000
And I remember always thinking, well, what's her job?
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:22.240
And they would never they never took on a job.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.960
It was almost like the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's wife, or the president and the first lady.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:34.480
That's the way they were put forward, as if, of course, they can't have a job because they must support their husband in their in his vicar role.
00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:41.359
And I always and I remember there was one, there was one vicar who came up whose um wife was a physiotherapist.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.440
And they actually said she was a physiotherapist.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.359
And I remember being shocked, I was like, uh huh.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:53.920
There is one who's allowed to basically keep on keep her job on, and she's a physio, and she's gonna continue to be a physio, which was extraordinary.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.759
So they may not say the trad wife thing, but in reality, what's happening is that.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440
They're all giving up work to support their vicar husband.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.759
And that's what gets paraded on the stage.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.480
Although, I mean, I think that's and celebrated.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:09.519
And celebrated.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:23.680
Well, and that you know, the f the famous thing at the mega church that you and I both attended at one point was that um it would be so-and-so is the wife of that would be her introductory bio.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:35.519
Um whereas for the male leaders or even speakers, it was, you know, his actual bio, what he has done in the world and his qualifications.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:36.480
And yeah, yeah.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:44.720
So I think there's a certain privileging and um celebrating of uh traditional roles in that environment.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.920
But then the counter to that was that they also had a lot of female speakers on their own.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:50.640
That's true.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:23:04.240
But the the dip the the hypocrisy there was that they didn't then bring on the female speaker's husband and say, This is the this is the husband who has quit his job to support her speaking, which that never happened.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:05.279
It never happened that way around.
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.039
It was like female speaker on her own.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.160
Great, superb.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:10.240
Forget, I don't, we don't even know what the man is.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.880
But the man, he has to obviously have a wife supporting supporting the vicar role.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:15.599
Yeah.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:37.920
And I so I, you know, I think the evangelical church and even the Anglican church to some extent is still promotes traditional gender roles, even if that's not explicit, there are implicit ways that that happens, and that leads us down a slippery slope, which I is the trad wife phenomenon.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:45.359
And it's not a coincidence that they're all Christian, and certainly not a coincidence that most of them are Mormon, and that's a whole nother topic.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.960
Um, any final concluding thoughts on the trad wives?
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:59.359
I just think you know, there's always, as I said at the beginning, there's always going to be a reaction to progress.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:00.720
That's my thinking.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:07.039
So whenever you progress in one area, someone somewhere will always want to take you back.
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.599
And often it can be people from your own side.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.640
I, you know, there's a lot of black people who, you know, especially in your country, been through the civil rights era.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:23.680
And again, it's like gauking at a car crash when you have a black person who is essentially saying, take me back to Jim Crow laws.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:32.000
Essentially, they're like, We were better off under slavery, or we were better off when people were asking us to go to different toilets and drink from different taps.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.079
And everyone goes, Sorry, what?
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.200
What are you talking about?
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:46.559
But there's always one, and you know, sometimes there's more than one, you know, there's more than one, and they they vary in shades, but there's always someone who wants to take you back.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.039
So I can't really take them that seriously.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:55.839
My role is really just to make sure that there's not enough of them to actually take us back because I don't want to go back.
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.480
Uh, there is no back for me.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.319
Yeah, I was never back there, and I don't want to go.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.400
I want to go forward.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:05.119
Forward.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:05.599
Forward.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.119
That's the direction, that's the direction we're aiming for on this podcast.
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:09.680
Exactly.
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:15.200
Okay, well, just a reminder to listeners we have one more episode before summer.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.079
I'm going to be in London on June 2nd.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.359
I'm doing a book event.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.160
It is nearly sold out at UCL at 5:30 p.m.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.279
June 2nd.
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:31.279
If you are around or if you're near Cambridge, I'm doing a lunchtime event there also on June 2nd.
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.279
You can get the details on my website.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.480
I would love to say hi in person on my whirlwind book tour.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.359
And we will see you all next time.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.960
See you soon.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:44.480
Goodbye.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:45.359
Bye.
