Jon Love on Building KingSett, Selling Oxford & Why He’s Betting on Canada

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Welcome to Between Two Burnettes, a show dedicated to highlighting Canadian voices.
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Together, we're sharing authentic conversations with the people shaping the future of Canada.
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We hope you enjoy the show.
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All right, well, today we have with us John Love, who is one of Canada's most prominent real estate investors.
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You are the founder and now executive chair of Kingset Capital, a Canadian real estate investment firm that has over $19 billion in AUM.
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You previously served as the CEO of Oxford Properties,
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And you're also a very generous philanthropist with your wife, Nancy.
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We're very much looking forward to the conversation, especially because you are just such a loud voice for Canada.
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So with that, are you ready for a conversation between two brunettes?
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Thank you for having me.
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There was so many areas to start this pod.
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I actually struggled with where to start, but I wanted to just higher level talk about the fact that both you and your father are entrepreneurs.
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Obviously, you built Kingsette.
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He built Oxford Properties.
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And maybe just start with, because I'm personally curious, what messaging you absorbed from your father around success, building businesses, entrepreneurship, wealth creation, all the things that our young generation cares about.
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Well, he grew up in a business family and his father grew up in a business family.
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His father had a feed business in Alberta.
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I grew up obviously in and around business.
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And so business became just sort of the trade du jour.
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And you pick up all sorts of general things, but I'll share one thing specifically he taught me, which was my first job is as a retail stockbroker.
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And I'm about in Edmonton, and I'm about three weeks into it.
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I'm in calls to people and stuff like that.
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So he asked me, how's it going?
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I said, well, it's going a little slow.
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And he said, John,
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He said, when you see someone, you should have an idea.
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And that taught me a very important lesson.
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To be relevant, you have to have an idea.
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And then, of course, I would have an idea.
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And they developed that to having two ideas and a question.
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And the question shows you know something about the counterparty.
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And an idea is you have something to offer.
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And that launched my brokerage business and has informed my relationships ever since.
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And when it comes to Oxford, I know you've said that it was not, you don't view it as a family business.
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Obviously, everyone still knew you were the son of the founder.
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In those earlier days, did you experience any assumptions and how did you really build the independent credibility as you grew with the organization?
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For me, my personal journey was that I was a retail broker for four years, and it turned out I was quite successful.
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So on my own, I'd proved to myself that I could be successful.
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Joining Oxford, because of course my last name was Love, I started at the bottom totem pole you could possibly start at.
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which was fine.
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And, you know, the core issue was do your job.
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I really loved it.
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I was leasing space initially.
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I loved that.
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And it turned out I was pretty good at that.
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And people are always a little suspect when you start and, you know, your father's the big boss and all that.
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But they wonder if you're going to be lazy or entitled or disrespectful or those sorts of things.
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Well, you know, if you're just do your job and just get it done, then life is fine.
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It didn't take very long before I felt everybody had accepted me and we carried on.
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Did your ambition grow as the data points of what you were capable of grew or were you always deeply ambitious and wanting to build something big on your own?
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Believe it or not, I never thought that way as a young person.
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All I thought about was getting today's task done and doing it better than was perhaps expected.
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And so I lived life in the low beams because I was focused on what's next, not 10 years from now or 20 years from now or whatever.
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And I wasn't really focused on would I be in a leadership position or whatever.
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I was always focused on what I could get done today or this week.
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And I think that's something I often share with young people, that too often people are glancing too far on the horizon and don't figure out what's actually next that facilitates what's on the horizon.
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So when I was a brokerage business, I was focused on my commissions that day, my commissions that week.
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I was hyper-focused on just really getting it done and how did I develop clients and all that sort of stuff.
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And then after four years of that, and I'd been top three in the system, top five in the McLeod system for three years, which is pretty remarkable for a child.
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I just sort of thought, I'm not sure I want to do that the rest of my life.
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And so I pivoted.
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And when I started leasing space at Oxford, it didn't really occur to me whether I'd be leasing space for my whole life or not.
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I loved doing it.
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I was having a ride.
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And I always felt, you know what, if you work hard, you get it done, you're enjoying it, you're doing your best.
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You know what?
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Life recognizes you.
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And things just unfold.
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Our last guest that we just filmed with earlier today was talking about this too, that in his earlier career, he just spent a lot of time exploring, trying different things.
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Do you find that now in hindsight, all of those moments helped create opportunities that only became really present based on those skill sets as time went on?
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You know, I think what you realize a little bit as you move along is what gives you energy is what you're good at.
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I remember doing performance appraisals once I had a couple of employees.
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And we'd always spend performance appraisals talking about what the person could do better.
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You know, what were their shortcomings here which you could do better?
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Actually, that was the wrong narrative.
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The right narrative was these things you do well.
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Let's focus all our attention on those.
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because those things give you energy and that's going to optimize what you do.
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So, of course, I took that to myself.
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And I've often said I'm very good at very little, but that little bit matters.
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And so I don't spend time on the things that other people can do better than me, which are many.
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I surround myself with people who get energy from those things.
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So, you know, I think it never, this sort of skill analysis was all about energy.
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And I think I say this to everybody, if find what gives you energy
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And that's where you'll be most successful.
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And pour into it.
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I'm going to bring a timeline here just for listeners.
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So you joined Oxford in 1980, I think by 1992, fact check me, you were CEO.
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In that 12 year evolution, which is both, it can feel like a lot of time, but it's also like a very short period of time.
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I'm curious to know what parts of the role did you feel least ready for by the time you kind of got to the place of now you're managing the entire organization and scope and everything else?
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All of them.
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All of them.
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The reality is I advanced relatively quickly because I had – there was a combination of I was sort of successful at some things.
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Some things were fortunate that I was able to take advantage of and so on.
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It's a longer story.
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But I found myself in a leadership role in the late 80s and then ultimately CEO in 92 and my father left.
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And I don't think you ever say, you know, like, I'm good.
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I got the toolkit here.
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I'm good to go.
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I was only 38 by 1992.
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He's so young.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So like, I mean, you don't – you're like –
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Now, I would tell you 1992 was the very depth of the real estate recession in Canada.
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And youth and naivety were a great asset because you don't know what you can't do.
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It doesn't occur to you that these things, well, no, you can't do that and so on and so forth.
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And having a lot of runway in case things failed was important.
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And so you took Oxford Properties all the way through to Exit when you sold to Omers in 2001.
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What would you say were the biggest lessons that you learned going through that sale?
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Well, I mean, just the sale.
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Or more broadly.
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Yeah, I mean, I reached the realization in 2000 that the game had to change a bit because Oxford had reached Competition Act levels of concentration in Edmonton, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal.
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You know, growth by acquisition was limited unless we changed asset class or geography.
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And I didn't think I was the right CEO and I didn't think the platform was properly set for either.
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Then NASDAQ started to melt down in 2000.
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And that's a precursor for weakness in office demand, and Oxford was primarily office.
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So that was also some anxiety.
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So looked for an exit, looked for some different things.
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I had a great idea.
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It's just regrettably, I was the only one that thought it was great.
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So what ended up happening was we fleshed out a bid from OMERS, and it made a lot of sense for OMERS to do this.
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And I'll just share one thing.
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Intensity, getting things done faster, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing.
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Once we made a deal, to get the documents final was less than 30 days.
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And they were final on the eve of 9-11.
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Stop.
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If we hadn't pushed, if we hadn't had that intensity, if we hadn't had that drive to get the documents so they were irreversible, the deal wouldn't have been.
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Then the other thing, after it closed, people said, oh, what's it like to sell the family business?
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I sort of thought, I didn't sell the family.
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It was a business business.
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You still have a family.
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You have a family still intact.
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Yeah.
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And so it was easy for me to, you know, disassociate between business and family.
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I have a follow-up and maybe if we can just backtrack.
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So 1995, you became CEO.
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2001, you sold to Omers.
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In that six years, you were a public company CEO.
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I'm just curious because we don't get a lot of people in this chair that are public company CEOs yet.
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Like, did you enjoy it?
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What was it like?
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Is there anything you can share about just that process of the public markets and-
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So 92 to 95, I was CEO, but it was a workout.
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And of course, if you said to somebody, you're in real estate, people would walk the other way.
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Then 95, we went public, but we were such a micro cap that you couldn't get any attention from anyone.
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Ultimately, that narrative all changed.
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And I love being a public company CEO.
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It was high energy.
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You're out talking to people, promoting your wares, what you're doing, and you're communicating and stuff like that.
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So it had its challenges, but also its benefits.
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And there was great stories from those days.
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In a leadership role in a public company, that can be great fun.
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As someone who I can only imagine had to deal with immense amounts of pressure, you've built through market cycles and downturns and you're managing people in teams.
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How do you personally cope with work stress and work pressure and just the demands of that leadership role?
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Yeah, so my style was always to have a team and share everything with the team.
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And, you know, we would have in the darkest times, 92, 3, 4, we'd have huddles and cuddles.
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Now, a huddle was when you had a really tough issue.
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It could be any one of the things.
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And everybody would agree that the six of us would meet sometime that day and discuss that issue.
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A cuddle was a 911.
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And so everybody would tend to drop whatever they had and you'd meet right away.
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Now, when we met, typical dynamic, one person would swear, one person would tell a joke, one person would be afraid, one person would be optimistic.
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You'd walk around different options, ideas, and so on and so forth.
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And as a group, you'd end up saying, you know, why don't we do that?
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That's super empowering.
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And so off we go.
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And it would be right or wrong, but the team would be there.
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Sometimes people say leadership is lonely at the top.
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I think lonely is a choice, and I chose not to be lonely.
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So I shared everything with the team.
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There was no secrets.
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Everybody knew everything.
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And that openness and transparency, super cool environment that allowed us to survive the most difficult stresses and keep your mind together and so on.
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And the other thing I did, I always worked hard to separate business from family.
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So, you know, I'd be there quite early in the morning, but I'd be home for dinner.
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And, you know, when the kids are young, you know, I put them in the bathtub and, you know, you do all that stuff.
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Yeah.
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Which I loved.
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It was a total release from, you know, what was in the shop.
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Yeah, that's really good advice.
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I also heard, I think it was like Jamie Dimon the other day, he's like, sometimes when you're really stressed about work, the best thing you can do is just like go to work and like solve the problem.
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Like if you're working on the problem, it decreases the stress of problems.
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Well, for sure the greatest stress is where there's an issue where you can't get in the room.
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Yeah.
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Because whatever's happening is happening without you.
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Like, that's not good.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You know, the reality is working with a team, being transparent, open, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
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We were very open with our stakeholders.
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Our lenders, we'd say, we have a problem.
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It looks like this, and this is going to get worse, and that's going to happen.
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And could you help us here?
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Could you help us there?
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And the transparency through all that process built real relationships.
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And it's amazing what people will do to give you a hand when they sort of understand what you're trying to do, and then you're fighting the good fight.
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And, you know, that can be quite empowering.
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When you look today at a lot of office spaces are now virtual students that are entering the workforce or COVID students.
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Are you concerned with how those things are going to shape business culture when you have seen such success from those relationships, from those in-person moments?
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everybody's back.
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If you go to downtown Toronto, like we're out of space.
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It's actually a problem.
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Everybody's back.
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And the people that want the interaction the most are the young people.
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They want to go to the bar.
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They want to meet the other team.
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They want to get coached.
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They want to be mentored.
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They want to have those experiences.
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They want to have someone say, would you come to this meeting and stuff like that?
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And I've told young people, can you imagine a world where the road to success was showing up and dressed like you mean it?
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It's incredible.
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So for those that are saying, well, I've got to self-actualize or I want to be remote and stuff like that, well, good for you.
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So carry on.
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But you're going to lead the pathway to those that want to participate, engage, build relationships, do all those things that build a career.
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Because you can't build your toolkit looking at a screen with a bunch of tiles.
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You can only build your toolkit talking to people.
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There is a social stunt.
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In other words, young people that experience 20 to 22, let's call that, 24 months, relative isolation, didn't develop relationship skills for that period of time.
220
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And it manifests itself today when people hide behind a screen or when people send you a text, can I have a phone call?
221
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Why don't you phone me?
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If I didn't want to answer it, I won't.
223
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And getting people out behind their desks, out behind, you know, behind the screen, getting in person is trickier for some of the young people that weren't basically lost that social development.
224
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Again, I talk to young people, get out behind the screen.
225
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Go phone somebody, anybody.
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Have lunch with someone, anybody.
227
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Develop those skills.
228
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Yeah, it's even why, like with us, with this podcast, we made a very intentional decision to do it in person versus it being virtual interviews.
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Because I do think it makes a difference when we're sitting here eye to eye speaking versus over a screen.
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I also think when like having proximity to people that have...
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achieve stuff and are successful also changed my lens a lot.
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Like I would say growing up, I didn't have a lot of examples of that.
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And then when you, and you naturally are like, oh, successful people, they're like made of something else and they're built different.
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And then when you start to get exposure and you see in real life, the whole person, the mannerisms, the flaws, you're like, oh, I understand.
235
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I understand it better and how things are achievable.
236
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So I think more like approach.
237
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It seems more approachable.
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Yeah.
239
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So I would say that changed for me versus I'd be like, oh, they're like out somewhere in another universe.
240
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And then you talked about this six month period where you went really dark, you said, before building Kingset.
241
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So I'm just curious to know what was going on in those six months and how did you realize I want to do this all over again and kind of like put my reputation back on the line and...
242
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So when the sale was announced and binding, but I hadn't closed yet, you know, I was talking to a good friend of mine, Michael Young.
243
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And we went out for lunch and I told him I was thinking about maybe starting a business.
244
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And I don't know, maybe it'd be like this, maybe it'd be like that.
245
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And he looked at me and said, I think you're stupid.
246
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Those are the kind words.
247
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Did he use those words?
248
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No.
249
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You said those are the kind words?
250
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Those are the kind words.
251
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I don't think I should use it on the podcast.
252
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And I said, what do you mean?
253
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And he said, you should go away for a year.
254
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I said, God, Michael, if I go away for you, everybody forget me.
255
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He said, get over yourself.
256
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So I went home, talked to my wife.
257
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We were celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary that year.
258
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Our youngest has gone away to university.
259
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So we decided to check out for six months and go dark.
260
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Now, go dark means in those days, there's no forwarding email or our phone number.
261
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So you're dark.
262
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Now, our kids could find us.
263
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But even then, internet was dial-up, right?
264
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So we would, wherever we were, we'd dial up from time to time and,
265
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and sort of see messages.
266
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And it was amazing because no contact with any business people or anything like that.
267
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And we had a phenomenal time.
268
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So came back after the six months and I had a list of 14 people I wanted to talk to.
269
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And I had the list before I left because I had to forget their names.
270
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Anyway, and so I set up my coffee meetings.
271
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And of course, I'd have two coffee shops.
272
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You have to have two because you can't have back-to-back meetings in the same coffee shop.
273
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Otherwise, people think you're loitering.
274
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So I'd...
275
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I'd give them a tip either side and say, don't recognize me and don't say, would you like another coffee?
276
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So I was basically looking for, is there an idea, a business, any business is created to solve a problem.
277
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So I was trying to say, is there a problem that I thought I could put together a group and solve?
278
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Anyway, so I'm in day three.
279
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My wife says to me, how's it going?
280
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Not the time.
281
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I was wearing what we were wearing at the end of Oxford.
282
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You know, a blazer, open-neck shirt, slacks, you know, that sort of business, corporate casual stuff.
283
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And I said, you know, it's a little slow because it's kind of hard to get people off the holiday narrative.
284
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Everybody want to talk, where you've been and all that stuff.
285
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And she looked at me and she said, well, why don't you dress like you mean it?
286
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Next day, blue suit, white shirt, dark tie.
287
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Nobody gives a shit about where you went.
288
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Everybody's about, okay, what are you going to do next?
289
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So, you know, it was literally like turning the channel.
290
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Anyway.
291
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Wife's advice.
292
00:16:16.975 --> 00:16:17.536
She's very good.
293
00:16:18.556 --> 00:16:23.720
So, and out of that came the idea to create an opportunity fund, and Kingset was born.
294
00:16:24.582 --> 00:16:34.844
With that at the time, you raised almost, I think it was $200 million for that first fund, which for like a relatively new model in Canada, that was a pretty significant amount for a first fund.
295
00:16:35.724 --> 00:16:39.605
Did that come out of existing relationships that you had from your days at Oxford?
296
00:16:39.765 --> 00:16:49.327
I mean, you know, I started Kingshead on second base or third base, depending on how you look at it, because in a relationship business, I was a relatively known commodity because of the Oxford days.
297
00:16:49.587 --> 00:16:52.708
And the first fund was $220 million, which was a large fund.
298
00:16:52.728 --> 00:16:53.048
Yeah, exactly.
299
00:16:53.869 --> 00:16:56.391
But people were kind enough to support what we were trying to do.
300
00:16:56.471 --> 00:17:01.056
And, you know, people would look at me and say, well, he's not necessarily the sharpest knife in the drawer, but we know we've dealt with him.
301
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We know what drawer he goes in.
302
00:17:02.237 --> 00:17:03.578
And so we started and on we went.
303
00:17:04.299 --> 00:17:08.323
And who was the first LP to say yes, if you're able to say yes?
304
00:17:08.403 --> 00:17:13.567
I went first to a longtime friend of mine, business associate, Doug McGregor at RBC.
305
00:17:14.007 --> 00:17:16.449
We'd done a lot of business together, knew each other really well.
306
00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:23.914
I took the concept to him, and he validated it, and he said RBC would step up to be a small limited partner, and that sort of got it going.
307
00:17:24.094 --> 00:17:24.314
Okay.
308
00:17:24.654 --> 00:17:31.079
And at the time, I'm assuming during those calls, sorry, not calls, those in-person meetings, it was just you.
309
00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:35.942
What did the first kind of set of team members look like when you raised that first fund?
310
00:17:35.962 --> 00:17:36.102
Okay.
311
00:17:36.182 --> 00:17:41.666
So the strategy was that I put together an org chart and what the responsibilities would be to execute the strategy.
312
00:17:41.826 --> 00:17:49.471
I had a depth chart who I thought were the best people in Canada to do all of those roles who didn't work for Oxford because it would be, I think, bad.
313
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I wasn't banned from doing that, but it would be just bad faith.
314
00:17:53.173 --> 00:18:02.780
I started talking to the first guy, Stoulegere, and I had sort of talked to him, but I didn't want to ask him to do anything unless I knew I could raise the money because I would –
315
00:18:03.060 --> 00:18:04.461
So you did the whole fundraising by yourself?
316
00:18:04.561 --> 00:18:05.601
Yeah, well, yeah.
317
00:18:05.821 --> 00:18:08.602
Because you don't know if you can raise the money.
318
00:18:08.642 --> 00:18:10.643
I don't want to drag people out of what they're doing.
319
00:18:11.303 --> 00:18:12.263
I was anxious about that.
320
00:18:12.303 --> 00:18:14.384
And, of course, you know, I always fear failure.
321
00:18:14.644 --> 00:18:18.926
But he was first, and then Peter Agar came from GE, and I dealt with him.
322
00:18:18.946 --> 00:18:20.727
And so then George Miller got the end.
323
00:18:20.827 --> 00:18:21.947
And so that was the initial team.
324
00:18:22.762 --> 00:18:25.724
I'm curious, both Sam and I are in fast growing startups.
325
00:18:26.024 --> 00:18:35.428
And as you grow something like Kingset with the early team, how do you not squeeze the entrepreneurial instinct through the stages of growth as you're building it?
326
00:18:35.568 --> 00:18:40.350
So I think as a leader, if you are entrepreneurial, that nothing really changes.
327
00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:42.011
Let's define what an entrepreneur is.
328
00:18:42.271 --> 00:18:47.379
An entrepreneur is probably someone who sees opportunity that doesn't fit in a narrow business plan.
329
00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:50.363
An entrepreneur is probably someone who can make decisions.
330
00:18:50.583 --> 00:18:54.830
It doesn't mean you're not consulting with people, but at the end of the day, you make decisions and you own them.
331
00:18:55.210 --> 00:18:57.053
An entrepreneur is probably someone who can pivot.
332
00:18:57.313 --> 00:19:01.655
After going down a path a little bit, seeing that, you know, maybe that wasn't the right path that you pivot.
333
00:19:01.715 --> 00:19:05.197
So all those same instincts go through a business that's growing.
334
00:19:05.377 --> 00:19:11.759
I'd like to think today, at obviously a very different scale, that Kingset operates, the most part, quite entrepreneurially.
335
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:13.080
It means empowering people.
336
00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:17.602
It means you don't have endless processes of checking and, you know, I got to check with head office and all this other stuff.
337
00:19:17.642 --> 00:19:19.123
It means empowering people with decisions.
338
00:19:19.143 --> 00:19:21.184
It means encouraging people to make decisions.
339
00:19:21.604 --> 00:19:27.527
It means when people make mistakes, that's a learning opportunity, but mistakes are just a byproduct of decisions.
340
00:19:27.687 --> 00:19:29.408
So I'd rather see mistakes than inaction.
341
00:19:29.628 --> 00:19:30.389
It's things like that.
342
00:19:30.529 --> 00:19:36.072
And it's empowering people to use their instincts and use their drive and to rise to a challenge.
343
00:19:36.092 --> 00:19:41.815
It's also giving people things to do that's outside their comfort zone because there's no learning unless you're outside your comfort zone.
344
00:19:41.975 --> 00:19:45.797
So there's a whole variety of things that I think can continue through a growth cycle.
345
00:19:46.646 --> 00:19:56.052
At the beginning, did you see Kingset or plan to have Kingset be a multi-strategy platform or did that really come with time and evolution?
346
00:19:56.372 --> 00:19:57.133
When I was dark.
347
00:19:57.613 --> 00:19:59.555
Yes.
348
00:20:01.616 --> 00:20:04.498
I took to writing in diaries and I'd write about anything.
349
00:20:04.918 --> 00:20:09.302
But some of it was envisioning a real estate business and maybe there's different funds.
350
00:20:09.903 --> 00:20:11.524
There was a little bit of that thought process.
351
00:20:11.745 --> 00:20:13.466
You start a business, it's terror.
352
00:20:13.666 --> 00:20:15.188
Let's just put that out there.
353
00:20:15.388 --> 00:20:17.950
And then it's terror to raise money, then you do.
354
00:20:18.491 --> 00:20:21.133
Then it's terror to invest the money, then you do.
355
00:20:21.574 --> 00:20:23.776
Then it's terror to execute the strategies, then you do.
356
00:20:23.836 --> 00:20:26.318
Then it's terror to monetize those assets, then you do.
357
00:20:26.338 --> 00:20:28.040
Then it's terror can you raise a second fund.
358
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:29.361
So it's all a wheel of terror.
359
00:20:29.541 --> 00:20:32.303
Ultimately, you know, somebody say you're lucky for this or that.
360
00:20:32.343 --> 00:20:33.184
I don't believe in luck.
361
00:20:33.384 --> 00:20:35.166
Luck is just an opportunity recognized.
362
00:20:35.406 --> 00:20:40.890
And so by the time we got to 2006, we recognized the opportunity to on the mortgage, to build a mortgage business.
363
00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:43.552
By the time it was 2008, to build a core strategy.
364
00:20:43.692 --> 00:20:50.738
And, you know, all of these where we saw opportunities where we thought we could solve a problem for somebody else, which is basically an investment problem.
365
00:20:50.838 --> 00:20:53.260
So it just continues to morph and grow.
366
00:20:53.300 --> 00:21:02.288
So when you have growth and you've got basically different revenue lines, it does change the dynamic of the business because you're not as vulnerable to any one issue.
367
00:21:02.429 --> 00:21:03.770
Yeah, exactly.
368
00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:06.832
And, you know, when you have four funds, it's like having four children.
369
00:21:06.852 --> 00:21:10.556
You know, there's always one misbehaving, but the other three maybe not.
370
00:21:10.616 --> 00:21:16.301
So it's allowed the business a lot more stability, depth, and strength in sort of every discipline.
371
00:21:16.698 --> 00:21:20.940
I'm curious because over the many years, I'm sure you've executed so many deals.
372
00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:26.582
Are there any that stand out where you can share some key pieces of advice for people listening?
373
00:21:26.802 --> 00:21:33.405
The most important part in the investment business is to treat people in the business well.
374
00:21:33.605 --> 00:21:38.307
There's so many ideas that come off market to people that treat other people well.
375
00:21:38.467 --> 00:21:41.929
And that's the investment bankers, in our case, the real estate brokers and others.
376
00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:44.510
And building those relationships, there's lots of things that come to you.
377
00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:57.435
And then it's our strategy in the early days, still now, but in the Opportunity Fund, was focused on three M's, you know, assets that were mispriced, mismanaged, or misunderstood, which sort of could describe any kind of business.
378
00:21:57.615 --> 00:21:59.976
It is using sort of common sense to do those things.
379
00:22:00.136 --> 00:22:00.997
You know, one quick story.
380
00:22:01.017 --> 00:22:06.019
We were looking at a building on St. Clair, and that three tenants, the three tenants in the building said they're leaving.
381
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:07.939
And that was all in the information package.
382
00:22:08.139 --> 00:22:10.941
So I went up, Stuart, and so we thought we'd talk to the three tenants.
383
00:22:11.101 --> 00:22:12.881
So we went to see the first tenant and say, why are you leaving?
384
00:22:13.061 --> 00:22:14.002
He says, there's a windows leak.
385
00:22:14.082 --> 00:22:14.262
Huh.
386
00:22:14.502 --> 00:22:15.463
What if we fix the windows?
387
00:22:15.543 --> 00:22:16.304
He said, I stay.
388
00:22:16.384 --> 00:22:17.325
So we went to the second tenant.
389
00:22:17.465 --> 00:22:18.186
Why are you leaving?
390
00:22:18.206 --> 00:22:18.926
I need more space.
391
00:22:19.066 --> 00:22:20.568
Well, what if we got to the space next door?
392
00:22:20.688 --> 00:22:21.348
He said, I'd stay.
393
00:22:21.489 --> 00:22:22.269
Went to the third tenant.
394
00:22:22.469 --> 00:22:23.130
Said, why are you leaving?
395
00:22:23.270 --> 00:22:23.871
I hate the building.
396
00:22:24.031 --> 00:22:24.411
Okay, good.
397
00:22:24.932 --> 00:22:27.054
Two out of three is okay.
398
00:22:27.194 --> 00:22:30.017
And so it totally informed a whole different strategy.
399
00:22:30.097 --> 00:22:30.277
Yeah.
400
00:22:30.617 --> 00:22:33.318
There's all sorts of things and every asset has a story.
401
00:22:34.258 --> 00:22:36.039
And there's great highs and great lows.
402
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.320
There's deals that you get and deals you don't get.
403
00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:42.722
But on balance, we've been fortunate to do what we've been able to do.
404
00:22:42.782 --> 00:22:45.823
And there's lots of stories there, but fewer worth airtime.
405
00:22:45.943 --> 00:22:56.269
Another interesting deal that speaks to just the relationship management and creativity in your deal making is the Primaris one ended very friendly of the split amongst five parties.
406
00:22:56.609 --> 00:23:04.354
What would be your lessons and takeaways to other aspiring fund managers from that particular deal?
407
00:23:04.694 --> 00:23:06.195
It was just an initiating bid.
408
00:23:06.416 --> 00:23:12.101
Then, much to our surprise, you know, we had a, there was a, you know, H&R came in and topped us.
409
00:23:12.301 --> 00:23:14.743
And you sort of have two choices, make love or make war.
410
00:23:14.883 --> 00:23:26.834
So we did Doré and worked out quite a creative deal sitting with, you know, Tom Hostet, the principal at H&R, that everybody, including, and maximized the value for the primary shareholders and ended up being a solid deal for us.
411
00:23:26.854 --> 00:23:27.855
So it was a win-win.
412
00:23:28.055 --> 00:23:31.018
But again, you know, just working together and say, how do we cooperate?
413
00:23:31.198 --> 00:23:31.318
Yeah.
414
00:23:31.338 --> 00:23:33.179
Versus trying to slag each other.
415
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:34.999
Trying to have a winner take all.
416
00:23:35.159 --> 00:23:35.359
Right.
417
00:23:35.479 --> 00:23:36.119
Yeah.
418
00:23:36.139 --> 00:23:42.161
I want to pivot us a little bit to just operations, how you're thinking about growing, adoption of AI, all those pieces.
419
00:23:42.341 --> 00:23:44.902
You recently acquired Trail Fund.
420
00:23:44.982 --> 00:23:49.383
Where are you seeing AI have the greatest impact on real estate?
421
00:23:49.583 --> 00:23:50.423
And maybe we'll start there.
422
00:23:50.763 --> 00:23:53.165
So this is all evolving as we speak.
423
00:23:53.265 --> 00:23:55.547
I think AI has all sorts of potential.
424
00:23:55.767 --> 00:23:59.130
Our view, my view of AI, it's not going to replace people.
425
00:23:59.190 --> 00:24:00.191
It's going to enable people.
426
00:24:00.371 --> 00:24:01.712
There's really a structural difference.
427
00:24:02.072 --> 00:24:12.441
And in the enabling category, which is what Trail Fund is intended to navigate, you know, we're focused on being able to give value and service to our customers faster, cheaper, better, so on and so forth.
428
00:24:12.741 --> 00:24:14.503
And AI for sure is going to enable that.
429
00:24:14.623 --> 00:24:18.426
It should be able to accelerate a lot of the work in our back office and accounting.
430
00:24:18.886 --> 00:24:23.767
And which isn't to mean that it's going to displace accountants, but it'll allow them to do higher value added things.
431
00:24:23.988 --> 00:24:27.669
To some degree, it's no different than when the Internet, you know, came around.
432
00:24:27.749 --> 00:24:29.789
You know, when people started using, you know, email.
433
00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:34.991
I mean, all of these quite profound technological advancements, people change how they work.
434
00:24:35.131 --> 00:24:37.692
And, you know, you don't find secretary of pools anymore.
435
00:24:37.952 --> 00:24:39.232
You know, it's all changes.
436
00:24:39.572 --> 00:24:42.434
So I think AI will be super cool for our business.
437
00:24:42.715 --> 00:24:50.061
Next up will be, which is being used in the US, not in Canada as much, but as far as for underwriting and evaluation of investment opportunities.
438
00:24:50.241 --> 00:25:01.250
And the reason is the US has so many markets that it's almost impossible for regular folks to kind of sifle through 350 markets, whereas we tend to have eight.
439
00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:02.771
So it's a different set of facts.
440
00:25:02.791 --> 00:25:05.113
But I think we'll see a greater role there.
441
00:25:05.633 --> 00:25:08.875
There is, you know, some people are concerned about its impact on employment.
442
00:25:09.015 --> 00:25:16.901
I think there will be some changes in jobs, but I don't think it will, I don't think it'll make a bunch of people unemployed because AI will do what they were doing.
443
00:25:17.081 --> 00:25:20.664
Enable others or those people to do a lot more, a lot more value.
444
00:25:20.884 --> 00:25:27.949
And so at the end of the day, it'll be more competitive for banking services, for legal services, for whatever white collar workers are doing.
445
00:25:28.149 --> 00:25:31.691
They will be able to deliver better work, better services.
446
00:25:31.831 --> 00:25:32.812
And, you know, we'll see that.
447
00:25:33.387 --> 00:25:44.892
More broadly on the topic of AI, do you think that Canada can start to keep up or win this technology superpower race that right now is just US and China?
448
00:25:45.072 --> 00:25:47.413
And right now we're kind of falling behind sometimes.
449
00:25:47.722 --> 00:25:49.363
For sure we can have a role here.
450
00:25:49.463 --> 00:25:50.023
And this is why.
451
00:25:50.223 --> 00:25:55.746
You know, most of the OECD is facing a bipolar world with imperfect choices.
452
00:25:56.086 --> 00:25:58.107
And, you know, China, its own challenge.
453
00:25:58.428 --> 00:26:01.950
And the U.S. has shown us that it will weaponize dependence.
454
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:04.871
Weaponizing dependence means you need independence.
455
00:26:05.111 --> 00:26:07.212
So people are looking for a third plank.
456
00:26:07.472 --> 00:26:10.514
I think it's like Toronto, what we've got going on here.
457
00:26:10.654 --> 00:26:12.255
We're a real player in this third plank.
458
00:26:12.555 --> 00:26:15.037
And I'm very optimistic about how.
459
00:26:15.237 --> 00:26:16.698
And there's three reasons.
460
00:26:16.978 --> 00:26:23.923
One is that we have phenomenal education, heritage, and background between Waterloo, York, U of T, TME, et cetera.
461
00:26:23.964 --> 00:26:30.068
Second is that we have some of the largest customers in the world in Toronto, being the six banks.
462
00:26:30.248 --> 00:26:36.250
And number three is we are a liberal society that will welcome the best brains from anywhere in the world.
463
00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:40.451
And so we don't limit ourselves to one particular race or class or, you know, whatever.
464
00:26:40.491 --> 00:26:46.932
So our immigration strategy welcome people that are from whatever diverse backgrounds they're from because of their brains.
465
00:26:47.093 --> 00:26:49.473
So that allows us to have a better talent pool.
466
00:26:49.553 --> 00:26:51.954
There's a lot of capital aggregation on the strategy at the moment.
467
00:26:52.154 --> 00:26:53.634
The federal government's made it a priority.
468
00:26:53.914 --> 00:26:54.394
Good for them.
469
00:26:54.675 --> 00:26:56.275
And we're seeing some real success here.
470
00:26:57.076 --> 00:27:06.823
And it's important, too, because I feel like a lot of media, we touch a lot on our oil and gas and our resources and so much of the infrastructure and energy and technology is always left behind.
471
00:27:07.003 --> 00:27:10.346
But the reality is I think it's going to slowly start to come up as part of the strategy.
472
00:27:10.386 --> 00:27:14.029
Canada's got three emphasis, four emphasis I'd really focus on.
473
00:27:14.089 --> 00:27:16.371
Energy, of course, technology, finance.
474
00:27:16.651 --> 00:27:17.852
We're global leaders in finance.
475
00:27:18.152 --> 00:27:19.753
And agriculture.
476
00:27:20.273 --> 00:27:27.277
And we sometimes forget about agriculture, but you realize there's more people employed in Ontario in food processing than there is in the auto industry.
477
00:27:27.498 --> 00:27:28.898
The news would not have you think that.
478
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.780
No, because the auto industry has three employers and one union.
479
00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:33.961
And so they have a super loud voice.
480
00:27:34.122 --> 00:27:38.464
But the hundreds of businesses that are in food processing don't have a voice.
481
00:27:38.644 --> 00:27:42.186
We shouldn't lose sight of our global role in the food basket.
482
00:27:42.366 --> 00:27:43.347
And that's every province.
483
00:27:43.673 --> 00:27:44.033
interesting.
484
00:27:44.294 --> 00:27:51.580
And you've spoken on some other interviews lately about where you think Canada needs to be focused the most.
485
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:58.426
And one of the things you've said is that it's not really about a lack of investment, a lack of funding coming internally.
486
00:27:58.787 --> 00:28:02.290
It's really around two things, which is permission and incentives.
487
00:28:02.410 --> 00:28:03.671
Can you tell us more about that?
488
00:28:04.543 --> 00:28:10.145
There's long been a sort of a Canadian business has been slagged by saying it doesn't invest enough and so on and so forth.
489
00:28:10.185 --> 00:28:12.166
To a large degree, there's no permission to invest.
490
00:28:12.326 --> 00:28:17.248
If you're in the energy industry, you know, over the last 10 years, you were told no investment welcome.
491
00:28:17.449 --> 00:28:20.550
If you're in the real estate industry, you were told we're going to allow you to invest.
492
00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:22.051
But boy, we're going to make it difficult.
493
00:28:22.271 --> 00:28:25.812
So it's going to be long and expensive and timely and complicated and so on and so forth.
494
00:28:25.992 --> 00:28:30.074
The regulations which govern all of this, you know, have to be modernized.
495
00:28:30.394 --> 00:28:35.838
And there's all sorts of examples, regulations that are very well-meaning 1950s regulations.
496
00:28:36.138 --> 00:28:37.419
It's just it's not 1950.
497
00:28:37.579 --> 00:28:39.040
And so we have to figure that out.
498
00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:41.761
So that's on the regulation and permission side.
499
00:28:42.322 --> 00:28:43.222
There's lots of capital.
500
00:28:43.342 --> 00:28:44.563
I mean, we have the Maple 8.
501
00:28:44.703 --> 00:28:47.365
And the reason diverting so much capital outside of Canada is...
502
00:28:47.525 --> 00:28:48.886
It's because there's nothing to invest in here.
503
00:28:48.986 --> 00:28:50.087
There is no infrastructure.
504
00:28:50.267 --> 00:28:52.128
There's been lots of talk about infrastructure.
505
00:28:52.228 --> 00:28:55.770
But as far as for shovels in the ground, capital going out, it's quite muted.
506
00:28:55.810 --> 00:28:58.592
Now, I mean, we're hopeful this is all changing, but we'll see.
507
00:28:59.052 --> 00:29:01.633
Permission is, and the regulations, a big issue.
508
00:29:01.653 --> 00:29:07.117
As far as for incentives, left to my own, I'd scrap all of the corporate handouts, you know, those kinds of things.
509
00:29:07.517 --> 00:29:09.138
But I'd focus on tax issues.
510
00:29:09.578 --> 00:29:20.226
So we've seen the recently announced acceleration of capital depreciation, which for large capital intensive businesses that are making large capital investments, that is like super important.
511
00:29:20.366 --> 00:29:21.006
And I love it.
512
00:29:21.106 --> 00:29:22.587
Now we've got to go to the innovation economy.
513
00:29:22.627 --> 00:29:32.154
What the innovation economy needs is to say, if you invest in a CCPC, so a Canadian controlled private corporation, you invest in a CCPC, you'll pay no capital gains tax.
514
00:29:32.334 --> 00:29:32.514
Okay.
515
00:29:32.555 --> 00:29:33.935
Now just think about that for a second.
516
00:29:34.216 --> 00:29:37.358
That would be the only place in the world where you're not taxed on success.
517
00:29:37.598 --> 00:29:43.101
And I think it would be a magnet of capital on business creation and technology, but also in all sorts of businesses.
518
00:29:43.381 --> 00:29:45.962
SMEs are, you know, I mean, are a huge part of our economy.
519
00:29:46.062 --> 00:29:52.646
We want people opening up the dry cleaner store, you know, like whatever it is, in addition to trying to find the cure for cancer.
520
00:29:52.766 --> 00:29:57.848
And that's a tax policy that would have a very small, it's a very small revenue issue.
521
00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:04.772
But if it was successful, the revenue that would come from it would dwarf the lack of capital gain tax.
522
00:30:04.892 --> 00:30:07.813
So it's an issue being talked about more and more.
523
00:30:07.853 --> 00:30:17.696
I'd like to have it amplified because that would really give a boost because we could bring, we could have business formation here that might otherwise be in other jurisdictions.
524
00:30:18.036 --> 00:30:21.017
Simply because if you're successful, you pay no capital gains tax.
525
00:30:21.378 --> 00:30:21.578
Yeah.
526
00:30:21.818 --> 00:30:25.519
When you're talking to people behind closed doors or even global investors,
527
00:30:25.912 --> 00:30:34.514
Does their view of Canada and how investable it is match the optimism that we saw both in the investment summit and coming out of the investment summit?
528
00:30:34.694 --> 00:30:39.455
So there's a lot of optimism and a hint of show me, which, you know, is kind of realistic.
529
00:30:39.475 --> 00:30:50.098
So, you know, I think the universal, almost universal takeaway was the strength of the cooperation between businesses, between business and government, labor, government, like, so everybody's on the same page.
530
00:30:50.198 --> 00:30:52.318
Indigenous, like everybody's on the same page.
531
00:30:52.518 --> 00:30:54.679
So there was a lot of energy out of that.
532
00:30:54.899 --> 00:30:58.040
But we still sit with the legacy of the last 10 years.
533
00:30:58.121 --> 00:30:58.361
Totally.
534
00:30:58.681 --> 00:31:01.262
And people are saying, okay, well, so there's still a bit of show me.
535
00:31:01.862 --> 00:31:06.104
And I had a couple people, you know, sort of reflect that to me, which is fair enough.
536
00:31:06.204 --> 00:31:06.424
Yeah.
537
00:31:06.664 --> 00:31:10.106
And so it is, we're talking the big talk, like show me.
538
00:31:10.306 --> 00:31:16.529
Now, I think the LNG facility that was approved and is going ahead, it's actually a pretty big deal.
539
00:31:16.769 --> 00:31:17.709
It's a huge investment.
540
00:31:17.809 --> 00:31:18.710
Is that over in the what?
541
00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:22.151
It's phase two of the Canada LNG project.
542
00:31:22.211 --> 00:31:23.512
So it doubles the size of that.
543
00:31:23.572 --> 00:31:25.453
It's $30 billion in investment.
544
00:31:25.613 --> 00:31:30.495
It also comes with support gas pipelines and so on, which is another billion, a few billion.
545
00:31:30.595 --> 00:31:33.837
Then the West Coast Pipeline, which has been approved as a major project.
546
00:31:33.857 --> 00:31:34.437
Yeah, I saw that.
547
00:31:34.657 --> 00:31:37.159
The pipeline won't go ahead without production commitments.
548
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:46.427
What it means is in addition to getting the pipeline approved, you know, there has to be approval of some major expansion in the oil sands, which is also not tens of billions.
549
00:31:46.447 --> 00:31:47.647
It's like hundreds of billions.
550
00:31:47.808 --> 00:31:53.712
So like these are enormous projects that have such a long tail of tax revenue to the government.
551
00:31:53.772 --> 00:31:54.533
It's unbelievable.
552
00:31:54.673 --> 00:31:55.714
So, but they're not all.
553
00:31:55.734 --> 00:31:57.595
There's all sorts of mines in Ontario.
554
00:31:57.815 --> 00:32:03.499
There's projects all over the country that range from, I'm not sure that works, to that's pretty interesting and that should go.
555
00:32:03.619 --> 00:32:06.240
We'll see how this, it'll be an interesting year or two.
556
00:32:06.300 --> 00:32:08.662
Everything's going slower than someone like me would like.
557
00:32:08.722 --> 00:32:10.483
Yeah, I was going to ask.
558
00:32:10.563 --> 00:32:15.106
But at the same time, you know, I don't live with the constraints that we have.
559
00:32:15.126 --> 00:32:18.608
I mean, you know, you've got to move the bureaucracy along, which is, you know, not...
560
00:32:18.808 --> 00:32:19.108
easy.
561
00:32:19.268 --> 00:32:22.649
There's a caucus, you know, I mean, it's the same actors as under Trudeau.
562
00:32:22.669 --> 00:32:28.030
So you've given them a new script and it remains to be seen how, you know, you've got a new script and the old actors, how that's going to play.
563
00:32:28.130 --> 00:32:36.272
You know, Carney has got a lot of popularity and support, and as he should have, he's got to make sure he can show progress to keep that support.
564
00:32:36.433 --> 00:32:39.653
We've got to get through the Alberta referendum, which I'm optimistic we'll do.
565
00:32:39.933 --> 00:32:40.614
And we'll go from there.
566
00:32:40.654 --> 00:32:42.334
So there are, you know, there's issues floating around.
567
00:32:42.554 --> 00:32:46.175
But that said, I haven't been more optimistic, this optimistic in a long time.
568
00:32:46.811 --> 00:32:54.035
I wanted to also get your gut reaction when we heard in the news, Canada, associate member of the EU, what your thoughts are.
569
00:32:54.075 --> 00:32:56.277
Is this opportunity, threat, risk?
570
00:32:56.577 --> 00:32:59.438
I think it's a little bit of salad dressing.
571
00:33:00.019 --> 00:33:01.560
I've never heard that before.
572
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:03.701
Well, we don't really know what associate member means.
573
00:33:03.761 --> 00:33:05.402
There is no definition for associate member.
574
00:33:05.822 --> 00:33:09.224
So it could be, you know, you get invited to Thanksgiving dinner.
575
00:33:09.524 --> 00:33:11.566
It could be that maybe you have a second date.
576
00:33:11.906 --> 00:33:12.586
We're not getting married.
577
00:33:12.706 --> 00:33:13.927
I mean, for sure that's not going to happen.
578
00:33:14.087 --> 00:33:20.271
So, and I think it's a message to, you know, our friends in the South to say, you know, like we do have other friends, right?
579
00:33:20.331 --> 00:33:28.377
So like, I think to the extent that it expands labor mobility, expands trade, expands defense cooperation, which is really what I think it's aimed at.
580
00:33:28.537 --> 00:33:29.598
I think those are all good things.
581
00:33:29.978 --> 00:33:33.801
And this is also key on the AI front.
582
00:33:34.081 --> 00:33:39.003
Because to have Canada become sort of the host, you know, the third polar.
583
00:33:39.323 --> 00:33:41.384
The other thing which we should talk about is quantum.
584
00:33:41.584 --> 00:33:48.027
Because quantum is, you know, in the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo is a global center for quantum.
585
00:33:48.127 --> 00:33:53.989
And it is, quantum hasn't landed yet, but I think we'll be talking about quantum in five years like we're talking about AI today.
586
00:33:54.249 --> 00:33:56.090
And Canada is right at the front of that bus.
587
00:33:56.836 --> 00:34:03.686
Rob Coomer is now the CEO of Kingset, but he joined very early on as an analyst.
588
00:34:04.007 --> 00:34:11.718
How did you approach succession planning and how early on when he joined did you see him as the future of Kingset?
589
00:34:11.922 --> 00:34:15.764
Well, you know, first of all, Rob is one of the most coachable guys I've ever worked with.
590
00:34:15.824 --> 00:34:19.826
You know, like he has, as he's grown and developed, like he's an impressive guy.
591
00:34:20.106 --> 00:34:24.048
When I was 62, I accurately predicted in eight years I'd be 70.
592
00:34:25.068 --> 00:34:31.631
And, you know, there is a point where you say, you know, do I want to work for that, you know, every day for the rest of my life?
593
00:34:31.791 --> 00:34:33.912
Or what are the options that may or may not be open to me?
594
00:34:34.152 --> 00:34:39.818
And I thought to myself, is it possible that Kingset could survive the full-time engagement of the founder?
595
00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:40.880
It's actually a big idea.
596
00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:42.241
And I thought that could happen.
597
00:34:42.381 --> 00:34:47.507
But to make that happen, I had to identify new leaders that were a generation younger than me.
598
00:34:47.647 --> 00:34:49.409
So you couldn't be retiring five years.
599
00:34:49.609 --> 00:34:51.491
Right, you have someone five years younger, it doesn't matter.
600
00:34:51.711 --> 00:35:01.940
So I identified sort of elements of that next leadership team, then worked hard to give them decision-making power and tried to coach those decisions, let them make decisions without micromanaging.
601
00:35:02.100 --> 00:35:03.501
Then you go through sharing economics.
602
00:35:03.561 --> 00:35:08.025
And then the last plank is you migrate core business relationships at an appropriate time.
603
00:35:08.065 --> 00:35:11.288
If somebody retired, a new person comes in and you migrate that relationship.
604
00:35:11.508 --> 00:35:14.311
And I've done that so well that I have to buy my own hockey tickets.
605
00:35:14.891 --> 00:35:17.992
So, you know, it's a long-term process.
606
00:35:18.512 --> 00:35:27.236
By having a long-term process, you ensure, it's a greater likelihood you can assure stability of the organization, continuation of strategy.
607
00:35:27.376 --> 00:35:31.037
And most important to me and to us is the culture continuation.
608
00:35:31.057 --> 00:35:33.658
Because, you know, Rob really wears the culture.
609
00:35:33.718 --> 00:35:34.238
He gets it.
610
00:35:34.438 --> 00:35:35.018
He is it.
611
00:35:35.178 --> 00:35:36.759
He and I are highly aligned on those things.
612
00:35:36.939 --> 00:35:39.680
And at the end of the day, that's our sole competitive advantage.
613
00:35:39.973 --> 00:35:44.496
You speak to how you prepare the individual for it, obviously your own personal preparation.
614
00:35:44.817 --> 00:35:48.860
How do you prepare the rest of the organization for the succession?
615
00:35:49.100 --> 00:35:50.321
So that's a good question.
616
00:35:50.341 --> 00:35:51.241
I've never been asked that.
617
00:35:52.082 --> 00:36:01.289
So part of it was giving Rob increasing leadership roles and seeing how he was able to work the machine and how the machine would respond back to him.
618
00:36:01.529 --> 00:36:05.832
And so it started with, he's on the investment committee, I'm on the investment committee.
619
00:36:06.013 --> 00:36:08.935
I stepped down as chair of the investment committee and he's chair of the investment committee.
620
00:36:09.455 --> 00:36:11.416
manage, you know, and then let that go for a year.
621
00:36:11.476 --> 00:36:15.337
And then management committee, I step off his chair, he takes the chair.
622
00:36:15.397 --> 00:36:17.398
Then I step off the investment committee altogether.
623
00:36:17.438 --> 00:36:19.239
Then I step off the management committee altogether.
624
00:36:19.539 --> 00:36:21.439
So these are all steps in the puzzle.
625
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.781
You could see how Rob, and you know, like his style is different than mine.
626
00:36:25.801 --> 00:36:26.661
Everybody's style is different.
627
00:36:26.781 --> 00:36:28.922
That's not a criticism, just an observation.
628
00:36:29.142 --> 00:36:32.985
But you could see how he was working with people and how people were comfortable working with him.
629
00:36:33.145 --> 00:36:38.530
And leadership in my model isn't dictatorial or, you know, it's not position related.
630
00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:39.771
It's consensus driven.
631
00:36:39.791 --> 00:36:41.232
It's consultative.
632
00:36:41.392 --> 00:36:43.074
At the end of the day, you're setting the priorities.
633
00:36:43.214 --> 00:36:45.696
You're helping facilitate decisions being made.
634
00:36:45.896 --> 00:36:48.258
It's not a top-down leadership model.
635
00:36:48.458 --> 00:36:50.359
It's more of a circle leadership model.
636
00:36:50.660 --> 00:36:51.300
He grew into that.
637
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:51.921
He developed that.
638
00:36:51.961 --> 00:36:52.982
People felt comfortable with him.
639
00:36:53.082 --> 00:36:57.045
And as people felt comfortable, he's got increasing responsibilities there and
640
00:36:57.205 --> 00:37:00.807
And then the day, people often ask me, you know, give me a highlight for Kingshead.
641
00:37:00.827 --> 00:37:06.670
And I say, well, the day we announced that Rob was CEO, not one person called me and said, oh, you're not leaving, are you?
642
00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:07.591
Which is perfect.
643
00:37:08.311 --> 00:37:08.691
Right.
644
00:37:08.731 --> 00:37:10.072
A lot of confidence for him.
645
00:37:10.152 --> 00:37:10.492
Yeah.
646
00:37:10.552 --> 00:37:11.333
No one said, oh, I miss you.
647
00:37:11.353 --> 00:37:15.595
For him, for the process, for me, for the business, like all the way around, it was a perfect burn.
648
00:37:15.815 --> 00:37:15.955
Yeah.
649
00:37:15.975 --> 00:37:25.220
Because one of the great fears typically investors have is, you know, we make this long-term commitment, but then all of a sudden I'm going to find one day that we don't have you, we have...
650
00:37:25.660 --> 00:37:26.001
Mary.
651
00:37:26.663 --> 00:37:28.607
We don't know Mary and she wants to go left.
652
00:37:28.827 --> 00:37:29.068
Yeah.
653
00:37:29.509 --> 00:37:32.536
So this was a nice, thoughtful, you know, transition.
654
00:37:32.616 --> 00:37:33.438
Rob's done a great job.
655
00:37:33.589 --> 00:37:43.516
I think that's such an important point because you, for listeners too, like you hear a lot this with a lot of these transitions where the founder leaves but emotionally is still very much checked in.
656
00:37:43.616 --> 00:37:49.240
And then you have this weird old guard versus new guard dynamic and the tone around the transition isn't great.
657
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:55.465
So like I think everything that you did that is now setting you guys up for success is so such important learnings for people to hear.
658
00:37:55.645 --> 00:37:56.466
Just a thought on that.
659
00:37:56.866 --> 00:37:58.987
You can't throw the ball and catch it at the same time.
660
00:37:59.608 --> 00:38:01.549
So just process that for a minute.
661
00:38:01.809 --> 00:38:02.710
You can't be the whole team.
662
00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:06.213
Well, if you're asking someone else to run the business, you can't run the business.
663
00:38:06.413 --> 00:38:06.693
Yeah.
664
00:38:07.113 --> 00:38:08.094
You have to pick your spots.
665
00:38:08.114 --> 00:38:10.536
And everybody has to know what's my role, what's his role.
666
00:38:11.557 --> 00:38:14.959
There's no fight or debate over that between us, Rob and I.
667
00:38:15.139 --> 00:38:16.300
He manages me very well.
668
00:38:16.540 --> 00:38:17.721
I'm super well informed.
669
00:38:18.001 --> 00:38:20.223
I'm addressed on what he thinks are key issues.
670
00:38:20.728 --> 00:38:22.388
And we go back and forth, whatever.
671
00:38:22.688 --> 00:38:24.889
And so, you know, that's an important piece of the puzzle.
672
00:38:25.129 --> 00:38:30.750
If you want to delegate the responsibility, but hold on to the authority, that mismatch is toxic.
673
00:38:30.910 --> 00:38:34.931
When you said your leadership style, it's consensus driven, it's cooperative.
674
00:38:35.251 --> 00:38:37.092
And those are all like really, really important traits.
675
00:38:37.112 --> 00:38:41.373
And oftentimes there are people coined that to be a peacetime leadership.
676
00:38:41.433 --> 00:38:43.393
Like I was reading an Andreessen paper the other day.
677
00:38:43.453 --> 00:38:47.354
That's like the difference between peacetime leadership and wartime leadership and how you.
678
00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:54.537
do need to transition sometimes to be, and I don't know, maybe you don't, but to be like super authoritative, like decisions top down, quick cycles.
679
00:38:54.577 --> 00:38:55.417
I went through the war, right?
680
00:38:56.458 --> 00:38:58.600
And the war is huddle cuddle, right?
681
00:38:58.640 --> 00:39:00.402
I mean, the war is saying, here's the issue.
682
00:39:00.682 --> 00:39:01.323
What do you think?
683
00:39:01.763 --> 00:39:02.364
What do you think?
684
00:39:02.644 --> 00:39:03.305
What do you think?
685
00:39:03.565 --> 00:39:04.206
What do you think?
686
00:39:04.406 --> 00:39:05.027
Here's what I think.
687
00:39:05.087 --> 00:39:06.248
What do you think about what I think?
688
00:39:06.488 --> 00:39:06.868
Okay, fine.
689
00:39:07.389 --> 00:39:08.130
We've got to make a decision.
690
00:39:08.150 --> 00:39:08.490
Let's go.
691
00:39:08.750 --> 00:39:10.592
It doesn't slow the machine down.
692
00:39:10.992 --> 00:39:12.093
It informs the machine.
693
00:39:12.153 --> 00:39:14.694
Because the biggest mistakes you can make is we got an issue.
694
00:39:14.714 --> 00:39:15.615
I just made a decision.
695
00:39:15.775 --> 00:39:17.616
Well, I never even asked you what you thought.
696
00:39:17.636 --> 00:39:18.257
And you know what?
697
00:39:18.277 --> 00:39:19.117
You had a good idea.
698
00:39:19.317 --> 00:39:21.719
You can always take time to say, what do you think?
699
00:39:22.259 --> 00:39:22.679
We got to go.
700
00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:23.280
What do you think?
701
00:39:23.500 --> 00:39:23.820
Let's go.
702
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:27.623
So, I mean, it's not a come by, you know, let's go have a retreat and talk about this.
703
00:39:28.043 --> 00:39:29.524
It's quick, but it's quick feedback.
704
00:39:29.784 --> 00:39:30.865
For sure, that's not my style.
705
00:39:31.065 --> 00:39:36.468
But I want to know if what I'm thinking, like, is there anybody got a big issue here?
706
00:39:36.488 --> 00:39:37.048
Okay, we're good.
707
00:39:37.209 --> 00:39:39.390
And so you can be as nimble if you have to.
708
00:39:39.630 --> 00:39:43.111
You are so vocal on LinkedIn and we're very grateful for it.
709
00:39:43.351 --> 00:39:44.812
And you are a big advocate of Canada.
710
00:39:45.012 --> 00:39:53.575
Why do you think more business leaders are not as vocal as you and don't share their opinions, whether it's on public policy or what's happening in the economy or their true views?
711
00:39:53.595 --> 00:39:56.115
Like, why are people scared, scared to be online more?
712
00:39:56.135 --> 00:40:03.698
So, you know, I think often that leaders find themselves saying, if I say anything that is, you know, not from public relations.
713
00:40:03.978 --> 00:40:06.459
Then, you know, some employees will be unhappy.
714
00:40:06.479 --> 00:40:07.700
Some customers will be unhappy.
715
00:40:07.720 --> 00:40:10.081
I've offended a political person we're trying to do business with.
716
00:40:10.181 --> 00:40:12.082
Like there's all that brain damage, so I just forget about it.
717
00:40:12.102 --> 00:40:15.844
And so you see press releases basically out of a corporate facility.
718
00:40:15.985 --> 00:40:21.047
I've taken the view that I think business has an important voice and isn't spoken about very much.
719
00:40:21.107 --> 00:40:23.949
We hear politicians, we hear labor, and we hear academics.
720
00:40:24.289 --> 00:40:26.070
But business is often not in the room.
721
00:40:26.431 --> 00:40:28.092
And I think that's an issue.
722
00:40:28.172 --> 00:40:30.574
So I started doing this with sort of like social media.
723
00:40:30.594 --> 00:40:31.315
What's social media?
724
00:40:31.335 --> 00:40:31.655
I don't know.
725
00:40:31.695 --> 00:40:35.458
12 years ago, I go on Twitter and I discovered it was like last call at a bar.
726
00:40:35.578 --> 00:40:38.480
So like that was crazy, you know, most outrageous ideas.
727
00:40:38.981 --> 00:40:41.883
So went to LinkedIn and, you know, like there's some interesting stuff.
728
00:40:41.903 --> 00:40:45.786
And I focused initially just on real estate people and I saw stuff and everything like
729
00:40:45.906 --> 00:40:51.288
And then much to my surprise, I sort of got a bit of a following and that sort of built and that was kind of cool.
730
00:40:51.328 --> 00:40:56.970
And then I thought I could see I could engage some discussions on some issues that, you know, were sort of important.
731
00:40:57.491 --> 00:41:01.692
And so that's been a source of energy to me and frankly, a bit of a hobby.
732
00:41:02.052 --> 00:41:05.494
And I post not every day, but almost.
733
00:41:05.514 --> 00:41:06.514
And does it make a difference?
734
00:41:06.534 --> 00:41:06.874
I don't know.
735
00:41:06.934 --> 00:41:08.735
But it's convened a bunch of discussions.
736
00:41:08.815 --> 00:41:10.836
It's given me a bunch of opportunities to do some things.
737
00:41:10.996 --> 00:41:16.898
And over time, I think if we can all collectively raise our voice on how to better build Canada, that you're more likely to get that done.
738
00:41:17.138 --> 00:41:17.778
Fully agree.
739
00:41:17.978 --> 00:41:18.178
Great.
740
00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:21.320
We will move to some rapid fire before we send you on your way.
741
00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:24.901
First question, which mistake is more common in real estate?
742
00:41:25.101 --> 00:41:29.402
Selling a great asset too soon or holding a good asset too long?
743
00:41:29.823 --> 00:41:30.203
Too long.
744
00:41:30.743 --> 00:41:36.165
If you were 30 today with no firm behind you, would you build your career in Canada again?
745
00:41:36.185 --> 00:41:36.905
And what would you build?
746
00:41:37.489 --> 00:41:43.391
100% in Canada, and I'd find a customer-facing job, any customer-facing job, because that's how I'd build my toolkit.
747
00:41:43.992 --> 00:41:47.214
What would you tell your younger self to stop doing sooner?
748
00:41:47.494 --> 00:41:48.775
So I never look back.
749
00:41:48.995 --> 00:41:50.836
There's always a difficult, what's your biggest mistake?
750
00:41:50.876 --> 00:41:51.636
I don't know.
751
00:41:51.836 --> 00:41:53.157
I made so many, it's not worth talking about.
752
00:41:53.257 --> 00:41:57.719
I was probably a bit impatient, excessively impatient as a younger person.
753
00:41:57.739 --> 00:42:00.180
At the same time, that was semi-important.
754
00:42:00.200 --> 00:42:01.821
So I never have a good answer to that.
755
00:42:01.841 --> 00:42:03.082
So you probably clipped the whole thing out.
756
00:42:03.142 --> 00:42:03.522
Okay.
757
00:42:04.863 --> 00:42:08.405
Which of your LinkedIn takes gets you into the most trouble?
758
00:42:08.445 --> 00:42:08.905
Bike lanes.
759
00:42:09.665 --> 00:42:09.985
Really?
760
00:42:10.005 --> 00:42:10.506
Bike lanes?
761
00:42:10.526 --> 00:42:11.126
Yeah.
762
00:42:11.606 --> 00:42:12.087
I say...
763
00:42:12.327 --> 00:42:13.809
I haven't read any reposant bike lanes.
764
00:42:13.829 --> 00:42:14.890
Well, I've stayed off for a while.
765
00:42:14.910 --> 00:42:15.731
I can't take the abuse.
766
00:42:15.751 --> 00:42:16.432
You can't take the heat?
767
00:42:16.452 --> 00:42:18.654
But, you know, like, I am pro bike lanes.
768
00:42:18.674 --> 00:42:19.195
Who's abusing you?
769
00:42:19.275 --> 00:42:20.236
I am pro bike lanes.
770
00:42:20.376 --> 00:42:22.158
Let me just repeat that in case we're mistaken.
771
00:42:22.178 --> 00:42:25.061
I'm pro bike lanes, just not pro bike lanes everywhere.
772
00:42:25.181 --> 00:42:28.525
When I say that, there's a fringe that just comes out of the woodwork.
773
00:42:28.665 --> 00:42:30.887
I mean, bike lanes are essentially anti-family, right?
774
00:42:31.088 --> 00:42:33.310
I can't go pick up my grandkids on a bike.
775
00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:36.653
I can't go take my grandkid to a hockey practice on a bike.
776
00:42:36.813 --> 00:42:37.493
So guess what?
777
00:42:37.653 --> 00:42:40.576
You know, I mean, if you have a family, there's times when you have to drive a car.
778
00:42:40.696 --> 00:42:48.061
But when I have made a comment like that, that fringe that's connected and amplified in social media comes at you like crazy, crazy.
779
00:42:48.241 --> 00:42:49.923
Of all the things you say, it's bike lane.
780
00:42:50.263 --> 00:42:50.643
Bike lanes.
781
00:42:51.284 --> 00:42:52.425
Okay, last one.
782
00:42:52.565 --> 00:42:55.307
Can you leave us with a joke with all of your preparations?
783
00:42:55.627 --> 00:42:57.509
At this age, two things are first to go.
784
00:42:57.789 --> 00:42:59.150
Memory and I forget the other.
785
00:43:01.816 --> 00:43:04.040
John, thank you so much for joining us.
786
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.103
Hope you have a great rest of your day.
787
00:43:06.243 --> 00:43:09.328
And if anyone wants to reach out to you, where can they find you?
788
00:43:09.488 --> 00:43:09.969
Just call them.
789
00:43:10.569 --> 00:43:11.351
Yeah, just call them.
790
00:43:11.571 --> 00:43:12.492
Pick up the phone and call them.
791
00:43:12.753 --> 00:43:13.494
You could Google.
792
00:43:13.789 --> 00:43:14.490
Google.
793
00:43:14.830 --> 00:43:15.451
Google John.
794
00:43:15.471 --> 00:43:16.112
Okay.
795
00:43:16.292 --> 00:43:16.653
Thank you so much.
796
00:43:16.693 --> 00:43:16.793
Okay.
797
00:43:16.813 --> 00:43:17.694
Can I just give you one rant?
798
00:43:17.854 --> 00:43:18.114
Yes.
799
00:43:18.395 --> 00:43:21.799
I can't tell you how many times I get a comment and I say, well, send me an email.
800
00:43:21.939 --> 00:43:24.302
And then somebody sends, what's your email address?
801
00:43:24.803 --> 00:43:25.003
Oh.
802
00:43:25.664 --> 00:43:26.084
As if it's not.
803
00:43:26.144 --> 00:43:28.327
And I think, are your knuckles dragging on the floor?
804
00:43:28.447 --> 00:43:29.568
I mean, there's a lot.
805
00:43:29.749 --> 00:43:32.332
I cold emailed you, so it's very easy to find it.
806
00:43:32.452 --> 00:43:32.692
Well.
807
00:43:32.832 --> 00:43:33.153
Yeah.
808
00:43:33.393 --> 00:43:41.281
I mean, at the very least, you would think you just ask your – you can go on to Copilot and say, what's his email address?
809
00:43:41.301 --> 00:43:41.601
Boom.
810
00:43:42.122 --> 00:43:42.662
Yeah.
811
00:43:42.802 --> 00:43:43.703
And why are you asking me?
812
00:43:44.083 --> 00:43:44.824
Anyway, I digress.
813
00:43:45.265 --> 00:43:46.045
Okay.
814
00:43:46.085 --> 00:43:48.608
So do not message you on LinkedIn asking for your email.
815
00:43:49.088 --> 00:43:50.610
Well – It's a waste of time.
816
00:43:50.630 --> 00:43:50.810
Yeah.
817
00:43:52.065 --> 00:43:57.368
I've sent some people, I said, you know, I don't even know you, and I want to be polite, and I want to be constructive.
818
00:43:57.528 --> 00:44:04.572
So how do you think I feel when I know that all you need to do is Google to find my email address, and you bother me for it?
819
00:44:04.890 --> 00:44:05.770
Yeah, it's crazy.
820
00:44:06.111 --> 00:44:10.073
My LinkedIn pet peeve is people that self-identify as a visionary in their bio.
821
00:44:10.413 --> 00:44:14.855
Because for me, I'm like, that is a term the market can give you or customers give you.
822
00:44:14.875 --> 00:44:15.376
But you can't give you.
823
00:44:15.396 --> 00:44:17.397
But you do not self-identify as a visionary.
824
00:44:17.497 --> 00:44:18.437
That's a weird, it's weird.
825
00:44:18.477 --> 00:44:19.918
Oh, I find some of them amusing.
826
00:44:19.938 --> 00:44:21.959
You know, all the words they go, wow.
827
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:23.800
Yeah, LinkedIn can be a funny place.
828
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:27.342
Or the other one, when CEOs say they want to leave a legacy, sell the stock.
829
00:44:27.795 --> 00:44:29.056
You want to leave it?
830
00:44:29.096 --> 00:44:30.017
I'm glad to see you.
831
00:44:30.057 --> 00:44:30.758
Thank you very much, ladies.
832
00:44:30.778 --> 00:44:33.941
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Between Two Burnets.
833
00:44:34.582 --> 00:44:38.626
If you enjoy the show, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.
834
00:44:39.107 --> 00:44:42.050
We love to hear your feedback and do our best to get back to everyone.
835
00:44:42.150 --> 00:44:46.054
So feel free to leave your comments or reach out to us on any of our socials.
836
00:44:46.474 --> 00:44:47.115
See you next time.