Belinda Murray: Hello and welcome to the Bee Formless Flow Driven CEO podcast where we are reshaping life, leadership and business from the inside It's Fabulous Friday here today in Melbourne, Australia and it is a fabulous, well I'm saying a fabulous Thursday afternoon in San Francisco where it's mid-afternoon around to be precise. Welcome the show, Eric.
Eric Dunn: Great, thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Belinda Murray: No, thank you, thank you. And I gotta say, before we were just chatting quickly before the show, before hitting record and joining all the listeners and hello to everybody who is listening right now, by the way, I feel a bit seasick.
Eric Dunn: Well, the help if I can do this doesn't make it worse or better.
Belinda Murray: Please don't move around because it's like, it's not a real horizon. So like, you know, I actually get seasick and sorry, ⁓ my dad always says to me when we used be out on the boat, he used to always say to me, just look out to the horizon, look out to the horizon. So you've got a beautiful backdrop and it's not a real horizon.
Eric Dunn: Thank you. Yeah, I am. No, it's not. I very fortunately and appropriately don't get seasick. Everyone else around me seems to, but I do then get off a boat after you've been sailing for a while and like you still feel it for a week later. Yeah, it's great. I actually like it, but whatever.
Belinda Murray: Probably legs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we're gonna come- to this because you had an epiphany when you were out in Sea Solo. So you're the co-founder and executive director. You're also a brand strategist and storytelling architect for Here Be Dragons, which is a creative agency focused on helping brands move beyond transactions into something deeper. You turn buyers into believing through believers through story, meaning and connection. And I think the story, meaning and connection is more important than ever. And for anyone listening here who has their own business or you know, is working with brand, this is going to be a great conversation for you. So you've got 25 years of experience across brand performance and integrated marketing. And Eric, you've worked across startups, growth stage and established companies where you build campaigns, teams and brand platforms that connect to the human level, not just a commercial one. And your work today is shaped by something more powerful. And I mentioned this, you were on a solo journey. I don't even know the story, everybody across the Pacific Ocean. and it became a turning point, shifting how you see leadership relationships and the role of presence in both life and business. That experience reshaped your approach to brand building away from the pure execution and toward authentic connection, self-awareness and the deeper dynamic that actually moves people. Through Hebe Dragons, Eric and his team work with companies to align what they say. What they say with who they are creating brand systems that are not only strategic but felt. So let's, the backdrop, let's pretend we're out in the middle of the ocean with you ⁓ we're little birds flying you or fishies jumping out of the water and we're watching you have this epiphany. ⁓
Eric Dunn: All right. was full disclosure. I was a part of a two person crew. ⁓ we were doing a what's called a type of a Swiss schedule where ⁓ the daylight hours you're on for three hours and at night you're on for four, which means you are never getting more than four hours of sleep at a time. So by the time you're 16 days into a trip, you're getting a little loopy. The I had was this was I was actually looking at our nav chart.
Belinda Murray: Okay, two person group.
Eric Dunn: and looking at like playing with zooming in and out and realizing as you were zooming out, as you're zooming in, here's where we are in the ocean and here's how we're moving ⁓ and our to what's around us most immediately. And I would play around with zooming out and have this perspective like, wow, what a tiny dot in the middle of nowhere on this big, beautiful planet that's in this big Cosmo like When looked at that scale, you realize the insignificance of your own personal self, right? And then you zoom in and you over the person next to you and you realize how massively significant you are to that individual. And important that is relationship between the two of you. Because frankly, without the other person in this particular moment, you aren't going to survive. And so then I came back from that trip, which was, it was supposed to be 12 days. It ended up being 18. It was fraught with lots of mishaps and misadventures. And we had lost the ability to make water for a while, which as you can imagine is an issue in the middle of the ocean. Cause yeah. ⁓ and we fixed these things, but it just doubled down on the importance of the relationships we have with one another and how much We actually do rely on our relationships and the people around us and the people we surround ourselves with to achieve in our lives, but just frankly get along in this beautiful, beautiful planet. So bringing that back, just, I reflected upon all that. not only in like how I build teams and how I work with other people, but then in thinking about how brands relate to the human beings they try and serve. Cause that's what we do in the end. ⁓
Belinda Murray: you.
Eric Dunn: A brand should serve its people, just sell them stuff. So that just shaped ultimately how I thought about doing our work, you know, and how was to approach my life's mission moving forward.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that. Were you, like, was there any moments out in sea where, like, lack of sleep, like, was it intentional that you were out there for 18 days versus 12? Or was that, like, part of being, like, when you talked about running out of water? Like, was this any, were there any, like, NDE experiences, near-death experiences? Or was it more just...
Eric Dunn: not as immediately for me. There are some moments when like Let's say that I would have preferred not to have found myself in like hanging off the bow of the boat, trying to fix the foremost sail would not be something that like, ⁓ wow, this is cool. I could fall off and never be seen again. sailing partner did get crushed between an object that slammed against the side of the boat and his So that was like, he was out of commission for a little bit of while making sure he didn't have a major concussion. But ⁓ so there those kinds of moments when you reflect on things. think there was a... It wasn't near death as much as like you realize the impact we're having on the planet. As we're coming back Hawaii, you just naturally end up going through the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. And at the time, I didn't fully appreciate where we were in relation to the ocean. But we see a living thing for four days. We did see... I shouldn't... ⁓ That's not accurate. I did see a Prestone bottle floating can or... jug floating in the ocean with a barnacle attached to it. you just like it dawns on you the impact we're having on this planet ⁓ and on the living things around us. We through that and got closer to the California coast. And suddenly of dolphins are swimming off our bow like welcoming us back. So it there were there's some reflection you have about the impact we make on the world and how again how insignificant we
Belinda Murray: Thank
Eric Dunn: individually, but how over time that adds up into something pretty major even for things that aren't other human beings.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, it's very cool. It's very cool. And have you always been into sailing? Like is this, well is that just, this just an epic, epic two week adventure that you decided to take?
Eric Dunn: When I moved out to San Francisco, I actually got very involved in sailing. funny, I was pitching the Bay Aquarium and had just been thinking about how much time I'd actually spent out in the open ocean and in the end, when I consider all my trips up and down the California coast and my sailing out to Hawaii and back from Hawaii and all that, I'm like, ⁓ I've probably logged about 4,000 miles in the open ocean, ⁓ nautical That's a lot of time. you realize you've spent somewhere.
Belinda Murray: It's very cool. And it's very, it's like, you know, I think I mentioned presence. Like you, like you have this ability to present, to be present. And when you've got nothing else around you, nothing else surrounding you. ⁓ know, like what, what you thinking about? Like, and, and for me, ⁓ this where your most creative ideas come. Like when you're in the present moment, when you are able just to have some non-time, if you like. ⁓
Eric Dunn: them.
Belinda Murray: Do know what I
Eric Dunn: ⁓ Yeah, know know exactly what you mean. It's funny too, because I am out there. You find those moments and there's also like a certain like it's it's interesting how when you the environment you put yourself in like actions inside yourself, you know, I mean like like there's such clarity you come to because you at night, for example, you look up and there is such clarity in the world around you. see everything in that sky. so you can't help but have a little bit more clarity about your own personal life and personal things and what you want to get out of it and where you want to go and how important things are. So I think that actually ends up like, again, I didn't come to this moment of thought with that nav chart story until like halfway, three quarters way through the trip. But it's I think in part because I've been so immersed in this space of like, there is nothing and
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that.
Eric Dunn: in that nothingness there is such clarity. ⁓
Belinda Murray: That's totally right. that nothingness, that is a great quote, in that nothingness there is such clarity. we were just talking pre-show around being tired, it's Friday. And he said, it tied from, I recently had some surgery or is it tied from just life? And coming right back to this nothingness and clarity that comes, ⁓ kind of what I feel like I need right now. I need some nothingness, ⁓ some time, just ⁓ some nothingness. And think nothingness is like, I can't do nothing. That's being it's boring, it's this, it's that. And yeah. ⁓ It is where the clarity comes from and it is where the creativity comes from, excuse me. It is where you can solve things you haven't been able to solve for a long time because you get all these downloads, all these downloads just come flying in, you're like, huh, you're not even thinking about it, you're not even efforting. It's like sailing on water, it's just, you're just sailing.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Yeah, kind of moving along. Yeah, like Life does have a tendency, speaking of the sailing thing, of moving itself along even if you're not doing anything. If you are just taking a moment, sometimes the action of just being present and letting things flow, flow science and whatnot, I did read a little bit about that knowing that that's what you're into.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, time to present.
Eric Dunn: letting things carry you and surround you sometimes can be the best way to observe like what's passing by so that you can then figure out what you're what you want your role and spot and position to be within that how you want to impact it. It's I find reading sometimes I get that too especially if I can really get into something and ⁓ separate myself from I'm at and put myself into where that thing that story is taking me. I can find that sometimes inspirational as well. But yeah, there's nothing nothing compares to being forcibly removed from the world around you, which is exactly what we were out there.
Belinda Murray: You get amazing. All right, let's switch it up. Hereby Dragons. us a bit about Hereby Dragons. I did plus years in advertising and communications and I was asking you, how's it going right now? There's a lot of change happening. So firstly, wanna know how did Hereby Dragons, the name come about? And then I want the... ⁓
Eric Dunn: Okay.
Belinda Murray: what you're seeing in the landscape, what's happening in the creative world. were talking just before around the or the watch out, I should say, of too much beige and brands, not actually connecting with human beings like you talked about before instead. We could have just these beige brands ⁓ and humans just really choose anymore. It's just, here's beige you. ⁓
Eric Dunn: Yeah, I think that's a that's an interesting area of conversation. First, I'll take the first of that first, because first cut should come first. You would ask here be dragons where it came from. It's story that it's long story, but when they were making maps, there were blank spots on maps and the cartographers and the drawers of those maps back in the age of ⁓ exploration didn't know what to put there. So they put dragons. in these undiscovered spaces. They put sea monsters, all these kinds of things to warn you that there'd be danger and so there'd be these dragons. We chose that name because we want to help our clients go and explore those undiscovered spaces and them a little bit of the courage they need to go there. And every brand has their different liminality for how much they're willing to push it. We just want to help people push a bit. And in that discomfort, we think that they can find better ways to connect with people and more interesting ways to get work done. So that's where that comes from. It does lead into the whole beige discussion in that like, and I had been reading about this the other day too, not in the sense of like AI is going to do certain things, but somebody was making the argument about digital tools and how we've become so performance oriented and data driven and not that those things aren't important, but We all have the same suite of tools at our disposal. We all have the same benchmarks that we're trying to beat. We all have these similar things that are structuring in our clients, have these similar things are structuring their campaigns and how they execute them. So over time that just pulls, it has a tendency to pull everything into the exact same spot. Cause there's nothing differentiating about how we're measuring or directing campaigns based on those tools, right? What does become differentiating is the actual work that goes into those spaces. But if you let data drive too much of that, you basically drive the risk taking out of work. And so I think of that risk taking where we actually make the kind of real connections with other people versus like, think about any relationship you've ever had, right? It's like, if everything's always expected that you're gonna happen, over time you grow bored of that relationship and you will not.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, totally.
Eric Dunn: You need people to inspire you with a little bit of like, I didn't expect that from you. And that's a very ⁓ and interesting thing. Let's go do that together. Let's go explore that together. And I think brands ⁓ develop personalities and engage with us in a very similar way. Like that's where a brand comes from. That's it's a spot in someone's brain. It's what they think about the the product or service when they're not engaging with it. Right. And I
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Mm.
Eric Dunn: we need to be bringing more of that. it brings me to.
Belinda Murray: Do you think more than ever? Like do you think we're at like this? I guess point in time where if we're not careful, we're going to lose sight of undiscovered spaces. Let's use your language. are you concerned for the industry at large? Like the industry you're in? I'm going deep.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, what? gets really interesting for me from the ⁓ of me. Like my answer has to be maybe. It depends. Like where are we going to push things? What are we going? Are like we going to go quietly into the night or are we going to stand here and ⁓ and like try and push to keep things interesting and force clients to to think that way about stuff? I AI might unlock a new creative renaissance. in the sense of like this new technology where we're going to have AI individual consumers finding the stuff we're going to buy and doing the research. And then writes the websites and puts out the information ⁓ for companies, right? And so the robots just talk to the robots and come with a list of things or ⁓ buying decisions a human being to potentially execute against, ⁓ Well, then what steps into that for me to choose between the three options you've given me, but brand preference. And how am I going to develop that? If my, the AI bot is going to not give me brand emotional preference things, it's going to talk to me about things that were written that allow you to do a pro con list or whatever, based on a table to make the assessment, right? It's going to be, and I think the renaissance happens not just in, not really in the digital space, but it actually in the physical world. that AI can't exist in or does not exist in quite yet. Billboards and TV and things like that may actually come back. Yeah, as a tool to get us to go like, that brand is cool. I have preference for that brand. So when it pops on the list that AI given me to purchase from, that's the one I'm going to pick.
Belinda Murray: Yeah. All counts. Podcast. Yeah, it's a good, I actually think there's a creative renaissance as well and I think there's also a identity renaissance happening in terms of you have to have an identity. You have to have a brand identity, you have to have a business identity, you have to have a team identity, you have to have a personal founder, whatever identity, and if you don't, you will stand out. You won't stand out, you'll be beige. What about?
Eric Dunn: Yeah. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Clients like you you've got you obviously have a number of clients and there's also you know from a marketing perspective Like what what are you seeing from your clients at the moment? What is there? What is keeping them awake at night? What is? So what's what's keeping them awake at night and then? How is that impacting you ⁓ and your team or how you then ⁓ at things differently for them?
Eric Dunn: I mean, with some, of it is like how close is the client into like... how competitive is their industry and how like, how much spending is going on and how involved are their competitors in their industry. In other cases, like how technical is the business. We have a B2B client where we're getting very, very involved in helping them figure out how to talk to LLMs and how to help read their stuff to better surface them in these lists that AI is coming back to, know, facility managers or whatnot. So for them, it's very like, technically and tactically real. In the insurance space where, you know, is Geico spends like a billion dollars a year in advertising, it still is very much a conversation. How do you get people's attention and communicate and connect the actual real human being about what somebody has to offer? So really varies from client to client in terms of like how we're dealing with stuff. I think ⁓ the theme, though, is ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yeah.
Eric Dunn: Clients just like us are feeling the disruption of all the stuff going on and having somebody to talk to and complain about stuff and just sometimes listen without offering an answer helpful. And of like, now we...
Belinda Murray: Yeah, have a good day.
Eric Dunn: Now you know not only what's keeping them up at night, but like what is personally keeping them up at night, which helps us then, I think, better solve and understand, solve problems and understand where they're coming from in a perspective or something or mood that's going on in a day. I know it's weird. It's not like a, here's a campaign that needs to be executed immediately or some crazy strategic idea. Sometimes just being a human and being present though is the most important and valuable thing you can do for a client. And we'd like to install that.
Belinda Murray: it's the most important thing you can do like to be honest that's when you get your best work that's when you best get your creativity you know I've always had those sorts of relationships with my clients you know when especially when I was in advertising and communications you like their personal counselor you're walking in their shoes and you on days when they're having the shittest day known to mankind because they've got personal stuff going on whatever you're never gonna get a campaign over the line you're never gonna get the work signed off no matter how good the work is And so it's being able to go in and read their inner psyche and understand them intrinsically. And I think back to what you saying around the human being, ⁓ this self-awareness, the awareness of your client, et cetera. It's so important. And I think it's more important than ever because you raised a point before, which I wrote down around ⁓ people's attention and... people's attention is hard to get at the moment because everyone is so overloaded. Like you and I came onto the show, my energy levels were a little bit, like it is early Friday morning, I won't lie. you know, ⁓ I know I could feel though your energy was ⁓ could have gone either way, depending on my energy, right? Because you probably had a day or you, I know, I'm just kind of ⁓ hypothesizing
Eric Dunn: We are the obsidents of that. No, you're right.
Belinda Murray: and it's like. And so you've got to then quickly go, all right, well, if I'm coming to this with my energy, not as high as it should be, and then you're coming to this. So you've got to be aware enough of yourself of how you're feeling, how that can then impact the other person. And I'm talking about from a client perspective here. then ⁓ do you then shift it? How do you then enable them to subtract some of the cognitive load? have the space to be able to talk to you about, or for you to be able to talk to them about important stuff or things that are relevant. Do you know what mean? Like, and I think that's a real, it's a real art at the moment in terms of the ability to do that as a human to human.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, I think some of that comes for like... One, it's new thread for us these days, I think, as an industry, because a lot of us are very project-based, right? So you don't have, your relationships with the client aren't always like, two years ago, this thing happened. That was a major sea change moment for somebody personally. And now you have that background two years later and understand like, ⁓ this is why this might, this is the moment that this has all come to, chickens have come to roost or whatever. And Now I understand the perspective of it. Like oftentimes we come in for three or four months or less and have to ramp up and build a relationship and understand and be there and be positive and optimistic and all the right things knowing that our term is going to be a very short period of time we're engaging things, but they still need to feel all that warmth and all that love and all that empathy they would have with a partner that they might have for two years. That's just the ⁓ the operating model was moved. But I think it's
Belinda Murray: Do you find that challenging, Eric? Like is that, like do you find that challenging?
Eric Dunn: No, and here's why. think people successful in our business or any creative business these days are people that have to be hopelessly optimistic and Hopelessly optimistically, optimistic, and eternally like enthusiastic about ideas. Eternally enthusiastic and hopelessly optimistic. There we go. And I think that's part of like what people that have been very successful in this business have done and have always been and because that it's easier for us to bring into the room an energy that helps get people excited about ideas because frankly... If you aren't those things, I don't think you make it very far in the business. Like who wants Debbie Downer or Donald Downer to walk into a room and be like, here's this new campaign I got for you that's going to change the fortunes of your business.
Belinda Murray: Now hit No. Totally. Although, although, although, you know, there's a lot of times when your ideas just shut down.
Eric Dunn: Got a boss back. Got it, like you gotta be that rubber ball that hits the wall and bounces right back with even more energy. And actually, sometimes what we've found is like, oh, you said no, but it's forced us to have to rejigger this thing. Oh, this is actually even better. Thank you for saying no originally. We almost did something boring. So.
Belinda Murray: Yes, yes, I agree. Yeah. So do you think then that ego is, you know, like what's your view on ego? You know, like because a lot of creativity has ego or there's a lot of ego and yeah, we've all got an ego, don't get me wrong. And I'm not saying, you know, creatives are ego or anything like that. What would you say around ego though in... the industry and what you do because you have to lose You have to have the ability to, like you say, let it bounce off you so you bounce forward. And then generally find a new idea. But when your ego gets in the way, your ego goes, fuck this, like, ⁓ they don't get Do know what I mean? Like, their ⁓ ego starts kicking it's telling you, what would they know? They're useless.
Eric Dunn: Yeah.
Belinda Murray: you're too good or don't even try like you know what I mean like so what's your your only guy in this yeah
Eric Dunn: You know, some of it comes from seasoning and because I remember being, having, being that way back when I was a younger pup. ⁓ so that season comes with seasoning. I also think like I'm going to say a bunch of things here, but I want to want to make the point of like you can believe in an idea, but not be an asshole about it. Like like you can believe in an idea and for an idea, ⁓ be empathetic and respectful and not let your ego get in the way of of that might actually help ⁓ improve around the edges. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yes.
Eric Dunn: or at its core, I think that's very possible to do. very fortunate in that I have a creative partner who, has gotten seasoned and over time, I ⁓ think ⁓ shed artifice of ego while still being able to believe in ideas. And because we actually developed a process here that one of our clients actually called out and like, ⁓ yeah, we should... double down on that a little bit more on our conversations on how we pitch ourselves as an agency provider. But we get a brief and align to a brief with the client and then we'll go away for a week or two and come back with 15, 20 half-baked ideas ⁓ than like spend a month coming up with the campaign. And come to the clients and we'll say, hey, because it typically goes like you have a client or two, right? And those clients or two have multiple organizations, multiple parts of the organization they have to then report to and sell their ideas into, right? So we'll come to these clients after that two weeks of like playing around with a brief and here's 15, 20 ideas. Why don't you invite some of those other people are gonna have to sell stuff to into the room and let's throw it up on the wall and talk about it and talk about what works and what doesn't, what you like and what you don't, what's inspiring you, where things could go. involve them in the creative process so we can involve all that wonderful experience they have and all those perspectives in the actual development of the work. And it's not creative by committee because isn't a thing where like it's necessarily created by committee. It's like working together to work out a problem. But in the end, we're responsible for the end product. ⁓ we certain things and we're going to say respectfully, great feedback. We'll take that note. But we're going to do this with it. Or great feedback, but if we do that, we're going to have this problem. So you collaborate, but you also push back at the appropriate moments because you have knowledge that they don't have. And they have input that you don't have. And you've got to come together to put it together. So we do that earlier in the process without ego so that we get the better work in the end and get two ideas everyone in the organization is excited about. So we come back with two campaigns fleshed out that they actually have a hard time choosing between because they love them both. And we just want that process to be a lot more seamless and useful and helpful for our clients in like making their work lives go better. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I call it, we used to call it tissue sessions. You'd have tissue sessions. Here's a hot one for you. And I'm ask you a couple of final questions to wrap up our time together. Before I do that though, I did an improv course a couple of years ago now, know, kind of coming out of the industry and, you know, having some time out. And it was really interesting actually. And I loved it because of the creative aspect of it.
Eric Dunn: Yep.
Belinda Murray: and building on ideas and yes and and you know I notice and I do it and I got I got pulled up on it the other week this person and he's ⁓ stuck with me now in terms of he said stop using the word but and I was like he's you keep using the word but and however
Eric Dunn: Yep.
Belinda Murray: And it's, and I've even used a couple of times today because I think because I'm tired, I'm not using excuses. Although I do think it's a little bit of that. it's interesting when you stopped and said, ⁓ you know, that, you know, we'll take it to this. so ⁓ improv, it was around, yes, ⁓ what would say it's building. So it's a way of. potentially shutting down something without just cutting it off in terms of, and if you notice when you use the word but, and it'll be interesting to see when you go away post the show, how much more you think about the word but now, because but is just a cutoff, like it just cuts things off. Versus yes and, you know, like yes and on the idea. So when you're in that, you know, next.
Eric Dunn: Yeah.
Belinda Murray: ideation session if you like with a client and they say something and you go but you could say yes and like and so it was just so I love that for an improv and then recently getting called out that isn't language like it's a language ⁓ word we should not use and I'm like ⁓ and so all the listeners listening to this ⁓ often are you using but and if you are using it try using ⁓ improvise and you use another word and even if you get stuck on it and I've been doing it I've just been like because even chat or even Claude but but but but but but but but I'm like my gosh ⁓ such a blocker it's a blocker word
Eric Dunn: Yeah, it immediately invalidates whatever came before it, right? Rather than making it a building block for something to a ⁓ level. Yeah, it's good. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Totally. Yeah. So we're invalidating each other's points in the conversation whenever we use the word but.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, ⁓ a good way to think about it. It's a good perspective to bring to it.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, so there you go. We've both just had a really cool conversation around that. talked around, just quickly, you talked around, I've got two final questions for you. You talked around ⁓ work, ⁓ I don't believe in the word balance. ⁓ just said though, and I loved it, ⁓ loved what I heard, because you brought it right back to humans with regards to your clients. And ⁓ you have these sessions, ⁓ you everyone in the room, it's iterative, you know, it's building yes and it's that improv, ⁓ you know like it's like a jazz band for example and you can't and so then you can go away and continue to work on you know you know finessing the idea etc. brought in you brought up though that it also can excuse improve their life work do you mean by that when you say like yeah
Eric Dunn: their lives at work? Well... Because they've been able to include, like, one, let's be honest, oftentimes the most fun thing you could do in a given day if your agency is coming in is like, look at creative work and look at ideas and talk about those things, right? Otherwise, 90 % of the day is spreadsheets and moving paper around and trying to get, you know, this PO signed or whatever, or some technical issue if you're a product developer. When we... when our clients are able to bring all these people together, don't get to do that stuff and engage in their work and engage with this agency that's going to come in and talk about crazy stuff. They get to have a moment that that's inspirational for them and potentially, right? Or think about their work from a different perspective, which they can then take back to their jobs and go like, what if I did this? What is my yes and moment in this particular frame? Right. And that
Belinda Murray: Yeah.
Eric Dunn: in terms of our clients makes their lives easier at work because one, people have a little bit more empathy of like what our client has to deal with in the situations that they have to work through and that... how a campaign gets made. But two, our clients then get to be these people that are showcasing empathy with their coworkers, which frankly makes it easier for them to get stuff done with those coworkers down the line. Because there's been a moment, an opportunity for everyone to listen to one another and be respectful of each other's opinions. So that's where I think it helps make their lives a little bit easier at work sometimes.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that. love that. Great, good response. I actually really love that response. Okay, final question. You're back out at sea, but this time, maybe you're the bird or maybe it's a leader out at sea. So you're a leader, you're an executive director, you're a co-founder. You're out at sea. There's nothing around you at all.
Eric Dunn: Yes.
Belinda Murray: and have this opportunity, you're on a journey to undiscovered spaces. ⁓ What? What would you be? my question here? I'm trying, I know what my question is. ⁓ just working out how to articulate it. So what I'm trying to say is. Where would you be exploring right now, ⁓ out at sea and there's nothingness around you and there's just all ⁓ areas, right? And there's all these undiscovered spaces and it back to kind of the real world in terms of, know, back into, you know, like coming back to California, for example. If there's one area you could discover right now, where would you be? guiding yourself to that. Does that make sense?
Eric Dunn: Yeah, it's like from an agency business perspective.
Belinda Murray: Yes.
Eric Dunn: I'm right now by how like building out a culture at work that can the most rewarding possible thing it can for people that work with us. That's where I'd want to, I think right now at this moment in time, point ourselves towards. Ultimately, think clients, whether you're doing a project or a long-term relationship with an agency, You're not really buying individuals. You're not buying past campaigns. Yeah, all that stuff gets somebody signed up, but you're really buying into a culture of the way work gets done and a culture that develops solutions for your problems and creativity. that culture comes from like, become part of that and stick around it ⁓ towards it. because of how it rewards them and how it makes them feel as individuals, people working with an agency. So I want to point my time and put some more effort towards what are the actual hard things we need to do to help reward people and help them improve and find their own paths and achieve their own goals in their careers. also live. fuller, richer lives. We talk a lot here about the four day work week. I've got this crazy idea of like offering up folks that work with us an opportunity to take summers off, to be with their kids and whatnot. Only so many people are going to be able to do that. But like, what kinds of things can we do to keep people fully charged and excited and enthusiastic about and optimistic, right? Eternally optimistic and enthusiastic about doing work. So that's where I want to put my time.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, love that. I'm going to share with you later today. read a little bit about flow science as individual ⁓ triggers and then there's group flow triggers. And it's really impactful when it comes to building out your culture and as a collective. So ⁓ send you through some stuff on that that we can chat about later. Yeah, it's fascinating.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Welcome. Rock on. I'd like that.
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Eric, how do we find out more about heebie dragons and how do we find out more about yee?
Eric Dunn: Well for me it's always LinkedIn. Just find Eric Dunn and Here Be Dragons on LinkedIn. You can check me out. Our website www.hbdagency.com. Yes, Happy Birthday Agency or Here Be Dragons Agency is where you can find us. Check out the work. Let us know what you think. Drop us a line.
Belinda Murray: Thank you. Yeah, I love it. And thank you so much, Eric. I've loved this conversation. It's been a good one. just, yeah, just, I don't know, just what's the letter looking for? Really just nice way to start my Friday. So thank you so much for your time. And for all the listeners, I hope that everyone, well, I'm sure everyone got a lot out of this one because, you know, it is in times of nothingness that we do get the most clarity to then take us forward and then to be able to really explore the undiscovered.
Eric Dunn: We're awesome.
Belinda Murray: spaces and in those undiscovered spaces anything is possible.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Well, B, thanks very much for having me. I really enjoyed this chat. Yeah, we'll chat a little bit more about some flow science here in the next few days. Yeah, have a killer fri-
Belinda Murray: You're welcome. Yeah, definitely. Take care. Thanks, Eric. See you.
Eric Dunn: Great, thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Belinda Murray: No, thank you, thank you. And I gotta say, before we were just chatting quickly before the show, before hitting record and joining all the listeners and hello to everybody who is listening right now, by the way, I feel a bit seasick.
Eric Dunn: Well, the help if I can do this doesn't make it worse or better.
Belinda Murray: Please don't move around because it's like, it's not a real horizon. So like, you know, I actually get seasick and sorry, ⁓ my dad always says to me when we used be out on the boat, he used to always say to me, just look out to the horizon, look out to the horizon. So you've got a beautiful backdrop and it's not a real horizon.
Eric Dunn: Thank you. Yeah, I am. No, it's not. I very fortunately and appropriately don't get seasick. Everyone else around me seems to, but I do then get off a boat after you've been sailing for a while and like you still feel it for a week later. Yeah, it's great. I actually like it, but whatever.
Belinda Murray: Probably legs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we're gonna come- to this because you had an epiphany when you were out in Sea Solo. So you're the co-founder and executive director. You're also a brand strategist and storytelling architect for Here Be Dragons, which is a creative agency focused on helping brands move beyond transactions into something deeper. You turn buyers into believing through believers through story, meaning and connection. And I think the story, meaning and connection is more important than ever. And for anyone listening here who has their own business or you know, is working with brand, this is going to be a great conversation for you. So you've got 25 years of experience across brand performance and integrated marketing. And Eric, you've worked across startups, growth stage and established companies where you build campaigns, teams and brand platforms that connect to the human level, not just a commercial one. And your work today is shaped by something more powerful. And I mentioned this, you were on a solo journey. I don't even know the story, everybody across the Pacific Ocean. and it became a turning point, shifting how you see leadership relationships and the role of presence in both life and business. That experience reshaped your approach to brand building away from the pure execution and toward authentic connection, self-awareness and the deeper dynamic that actually moves people. Through Hebe Dragons, Eric and his team work with companies to align what they say. What they say with who they are creating brand systems that are not only strategic but felt. So let's, the backdrop, let's pretend we're out in the middle of the ocean with you ⁓ we're little birds flying you or fishies jumping out of the water and we're watching you have this epiphany. ⁓
Eric Dunn: All right. was full disclosure. I was a part of a two person crew. ⁓ we were doing a what's called a type of a Swiss schedule where ⁓ the daylight hours you're on for three hours and at night you're on for four, which means you are never getting more than four hours of sleep at a time. So by the time you're 16 days into a trip, you're getting a little loopy. The I had was this was I was actually looking at our nav chart.
Belinda Murray: Okay, two person group.
Eric Dunn: and looking at like playing with zooming in and out and realizing as you were zooming out, as you're zooming in, here's where we are in the ocean and here's how we're moving ⁓ and our to what's around us most immediately. And I would play around with zooming out and have this perspective like, wow, what a tiny dot in the middle of nowhere on this big, beautiful planet that's in this big Cosmo like When looked at that scale, you realize the insignificance of your own personal self, right? And then you zoom in and you over the person next to you and you realize how massively significant you are to that individual. And important that is relationship between the two of you. Because frankly, without the other person in this particular moment, you aren't going to survive. And so then I came back from that trip, which was, it was supposed to be 12 days. It ended up being 18. It was fraught with lots of mishaps and misadventures. And we had lost the ability to make water for a while, which as you can imagine is an issue in the middle of the ocean. Cause yeah. ⁓ and we fixed these things, but it just doubled down on the importance of the relationships we have with one another and how much We actually do rely on our relationships and the people around us and the people we surround ourselves with to achieve in our lives, but just frankly get along in this beautiful, beautiful planet. So bringing that back, just, I reflected upon all that. not only in like how I build teams and how I work with other people, but then in thinking about how brands relate to the human beings they try and serve. Cause that's what we do in the end. ⁓
Belinda Murray: you.
Eric Dunn: A brand should serve its people, just sell them stuff. So that just shaped ultimately how I thought about doing our work, you know, and how was to approach my life's mission moving forward.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that. Were you, like, was there any moments out in sea where, like, lack of sleep, like, was it intentional that you were out there for 18 days versus 12? Or was that, like, part of being, like, when you talked about running out of water? Like, was this any, were there any, like, NDE experiences, near-death experiences? Or was it more just...
Eric Dunn: not as immediately for me. There are some moments when like Let's say that I would have preferred not to have found myself in like hanging off the bow of the boat, trying to fix the foremost sail would not be something that like, ⁓ wow, this is cool. I could fall off and never be seen again. sailing partner did get crushed between an object that slammed against the side of the boat and his So that was like, he was out of commission for a little bit of while making sure he didn't have a major concussion. But ⁓ so there those kinds of moments when you reflect on things. think there was a... It wasn't near death as much as like you realize the impact we're having on the planet. As we're coming back Hawaii, you just naturally end up going through the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. And at the time, I didn't fully appreciate where we were in relation to the ocean. But we see a living thing for four days. We did see... I shouldn't... ⁓ That's not accurate. I did see a Prestone bottle floating can or... jug floating in the ocean with a barnacle attached to it. you just like it dawns on you the impact we're having on this planet ⁓ and on the living things around us. We through that and got closer to the California coast. And suddenly of dolphins are swimming off our bow like welcoming us back. So it there were there's some reflection you have about the impact we make on the world and how again how insignificant we
Belinda Murray: Thank
Eric Dunn: individually, but how over time that adds up into something pretty major even for things that aren't other human beings.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, it's very cool. It's very cool. And have you always been into sailing? Like is this, well is that just, this just an epic, epic two week adventure that you decided to take?
Eric Dunn: When I moved out to San Francisco, I actually got very involved in sailing. funny, I was pitching the Bay Aquarium and had just been thinking about how much time I'd actually spent out in the open ocean and in the end, when I consider all my trips up and down the California coast and my sailing out to Hawaii and back from Hawaii and all that, I'm like, ⁓ I've probably logged about 4,000 miles in the open ocean, ⁓ nautical That's a lot of time. you realize you've spent somewhere.
Belinda Murray: It's very cool. And it's very, it's like, you know, I think I mentioned presence. Like you, like you have this ability to present, to be present. And when you've got nothing else around you, nothing else surrounding you. ⁓ know, like what, what you thinking about? Like, and, and for me, ⁓ this where your most creative ideas come. Like when you're in the present moment, when you are able just to have some non-time, if you like. ⁓
Eric Dunn: them.
Belinda Murray: Do know what I
Eric Dunn: ⁓ Yeah, know know exactly what you mean. It's funny too, because I am out there. You find those moments and there's also like a certain like it's it's interesting how when you the environment you put yourself in like actions inside yourself, you know, I mean like like there's such clarity you come to because you at night, for example, you look up and there is such clarity in the world around you. see everything in that sky. so you can't help but have a little bit more clarity about your own personal life and personal things and what you want to get out of it and where you want to go and how important things are. So I think that actually ends up like, again, I didn't come to this moment of thought with that nav chart story until like halfway, three quarters way through the trip. But it's I think in part because I've been so immersed in this space of like, there is nothing and
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that.
Eric Dunn: in that nothingness there is such clarity. ⁓
Belinda Murray: That's totally right. that nothingness, that is a great quote, in that nothingness there is such clarity. we were just talking pre-show around being tired, it's Friday. And he said, it tied from, I recently had some surgery or is it tied from just life? And coming right back to this nothingness and clarity that comes, ⁓ kind of what I feel like I need right now. I need some nothingness, ⁓ some time, just ⁓ some nothingness. And think nothingness is like, I can't do nothing. That's being it's boring, it's this, it's that. And yeah. ⁓ It is where the clarity comes from and it is where the creativity comes from, excuse me. It is where you can solve things you haven't been able to solve for a long time because you get all these downloads, all these downloads just come flying in, you're like, huh, you're not even thinking about it, you're not even efforting. It's like sailing on water, it's just, you're just sailing.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Yeah, kind of moving along. Yeah, like Life does have a tendency, speaking of the sailing thing, of moving itself along even if you're not doing anything. If you are just taking a moment, sometimes the action of just being present and letting things flow, flow science and whatnot, I did read a little bit about that knowing that that's what you're into.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, time to present.
Eric Dunn: letting things carry you and surround you sometimes can be the best way to observe like what's passing by so that you can then figure out what you're what you want your role and spot and position to be within that how you want to impact it. It's I find reading sometimes I get that too especially if I can really get into something and ⁓ separate myself from I'm at and put myself into where that thing that story is taking me. I can find that sometimes inspirational as well. But yeah, there's nothing nothing compares to being forcibly removed from the world around you, which is exactly what we were out there.
Belinda Murray: You get amazing. All right, let's switch it up. Hereby Dragons. us a bit about Hereby Dragons. I did plus years in advertising and communications and I was asking you, how's it going right now? There's a lot of change happening. So firstly, wanna know how did Hereby Dragons, the name come about? And then I want the... ⁓
Eric Dunn: Okay.
Belinda Murray: what you're seeing in the landscape, what's happening in the creative world. were talking just before around the or the watch out, I should say, of too much beige and brands, not actually connecting with human beings like you talked about before instead. We could have just these beige brands ⁓ and humans just really choose anymore. It's just, here's beige you. ⁓
Eric Dunn: Yeah, I think that's a that's an interesting area of conversation. First, I'll take the first of that first, because first cut should come first. You would ask here be dragons where it came from. It's story that it's long story, but when they were making maps, there were blank spots on maps and the cartographers and the drawers of those maps back in the age of ⁓ exploration didn't know what to put there. So they put dragons. in these undiscovered spaces. They put sea monsters, all these kinds of things to warn you that there'd be danger and so there'd be these dragons. We chose that name because we want to help our clients go and explore those undiscovered spaces and them a little bit of the courage they need to go there. And every brand has their different liminality for how much they're willing to push it. We just want to help people push a bit. And in that discomfort, we think that they can find better ways to connect with people and more interesting ways to get work done. So that's where that comes from. It does lead into the whole beige discussion in that like, and I had been reading about this the other day too, not in the sense of like AI is going to do certain things, but somebody was making the argument about digital tools and how we've become so performance oriented and data driven and not that those things aren't important, but We all have the same suite of tools at our disposal. We all have the same benchmarks that we're trying to beat. We all have these similar things that are structuring in our clients, have these similar things are structuring their campaigns and how they execute them. So over time that just pulls, it has a tendency to pull everything into the exact same spot. Cause there's nothing differentiating about how we're measuring or directing campaigns based on those tools, right? What does become differentiating is the actual work that goes into those spaces. But if you let data drive too much of that, you basically drive the risk taking out of work. And so I think of that risk taking where we actually make the kind of real connections with other people versus like, think about any relationship you've ever had, right? It's like, if everything's always expected that you're gonna happen, over time you grow bored of that relationship and you will not.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, totally.
Eric Dunn: You need people to inspire you with a little bit of like, I didn't expect that from you. And that's a very ⁓ and interesting thing. Let's go do that together. Let's go explore that together. And I think brands ⁓ develop personalities and engage with us in a very similar way. Like that's where a brand comes from. That's it's a spot in someone's brain. It's what they think about the the product or service when they're not engaging with it. Right. And I
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Mm.
Eric Dunn: we need to be bringing more of that. it brings me to.
Belinda Murray: Do you think more than ever? Like do you think we're at like this? I guess point in time where if we're not careful, we're going to lose sight of undiscovered spaces. Let's use your language. are you concerned for the industry at large? Like the industry you're in? I'm going deep.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, what? gets really interesting for me from the ⁓ of me. Like my answer has to be maybe. It depends. Like where are we going to push things? What are we going? Are like we going to go quietly into the night or are we going to stand here and ⁓ and like try and push to keep things interesting and force clients to to think that way about stuff? I AI might unlock a new creative renaissance. in the sense of like this new technology where we're going to have AI individual consumers finding the stuff we're going to buy and doing the research. And then writes the websites and puts out the information ⁓ for companies, right? And so the robots just talk to the robots and come with a list of things or ⁓ buying decisions a human being to potentially execute against, ⁓ Well, then what steps into that for me to choose between the three options you've given me, but brand preference. And how am I going to develop that? If my, the AI bot is going to not give me brand emotional preference things, it's going to talk to me about things that were written that allow you to do a pro con list or whatever, based on a table to make the assessment, right? It's going to be, and I think the renaissance happens not just in, not really in the digital space, but it actually in the physical world. that AI can't exist in or does not exist in quite yet. Billboards and TV and things like that may actually come back. Yeah, as a tool to get us to go like, that brand is cool. I have preference for that brand. So when it pops on the list that AI given me to purchase from, that's the one I'm going to pick.
Belinda Murray: Yeah. All counts. Podcast. Yeah, it's a good, I actually think there's a creative renaissance as well and I think there's also a identity renaissance happening in terms of you have to have an identity. You have to have a brand identity, you have to have a business identity, you have to have a team identity, you have to have a personal founder, whatever identity, and if you don't, you will stand out. You won't stand out, you'll be beige. What about?
Eric Dunn: Yeah. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Clients like you you've got you obviously have a number of clients and there's also you know from a marketing perspective Like what what are you seeing from your clients at the moment? What is there? What is keeping them awake at night? What is? So what's what's keeping them awake at night and then? How is that impacting you ⁓ and your team or how you then ⁓ at things differently for them?
Eric Dunn: I mean, with some, of it is like how close is the client into like... how competitive is their industry and how like, how much spending is going on and how involved are their competitors in their industry. In other cases, like how technical is the business. We have a B2B client where we're getting very, very involved in helping them figure out how to talk to LLMs and how to help read their stuff to better surface them in these lists that AI is coming back to, know, facility managers or whatnot. So for them, it's very like, technically and tactically real. In the insurance space where, you know, is Geico spends like a billion dollars a year in advertising, it still is very much a conversation. How do you get people's attention and communicate and connect the actual real human being about what somebody has to offer? So really varies from client to client in terms of like how we're dealing with stuff. I think ⁓ the theme, though, is ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yeah.
Eric Dunn: Clients just like us are feeling the disruption of all the stuff going on and having somebody to talk to and complain about stuff and just sometimes listen without offering an answer helpful. And of like, now we...
Belinda Murray: Yeah, have a good day.
Eric Dunn: Now you know not only what's keeping them up at night, but like what is personally keeping them up at night, which helps us then, I think, better solve and understand, solve problems and understand where they're coming from in a perspective or something or mood that's going on in a day. I know it's weird. It's not like a, here's a campaign that needs to be executed immediately or some crazy strategic idea. Sometimes just being a human and being present though is the most important and valuable thing you can do for a client. And we'd like to install that.
Belinda Murray: it's the most important thing you can do like to be honest that's when you get your best work that's when you best get your creativity you know I've always had those sorts of relationships with my clients you know when especially when I was in advertising and communications you like their personal counselor you're walking in their shoes and you on days when they're having the shittest day known to mankind because they've got personal stuff going on whatever you're never gonna get a campaign over the line you're never gonna get the work signed off no matter how good the work is And so it's being able to go in and read their inner psyche and understand them intrinsically. And I think back to what you saying around the human being, ⁓ this self-awareness, the awareness of your client, et cetera. It's so important. And I think it's more important than ever because you raised a point before, which I wrote down around ⁓ people's attention and... people's attention is hard to get at the moment because everyone is so overloaded. Like you and I came onto the show, my energy levels were a little bit, like it is early Friday morning, I won't lie. you know, ⁓ I know I could feel though your energy was ⁓ could have gone either way, depending on my energy, right? Because you probably had a day or you, I know, I'm just kind of ⁓ hypothesizing
Eric Dunn: We are the obsidents of that. No, you're right.
Belinda Murray: and it's like. And so you've got to then quickly go, all right, well, if I'm coming to this with my energy, not as high as it should be, and then you're coming to this. So you've got to be aware enough of yourself of how you're feeling, how that can then impact the other person. And I'm talking about from a client perspective here. then ⁓ do you then shift it? How do you then enable them to subtract some of the cognitive load? have the space to be able to talk to you about, or for you to be able to talk to them about important stuff or things that are relevant. Do you know what mean? Like, and I think that's a real, it's a real art at the moment in terms of the ability to do that as a human to human.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, I think some of that comes for like... One, it's new thread for us these days, I think, as an industry, because a lot of us are very project-based, right? So you don't have, your relationships with the client aren't always like, two years ago, this thing happened. That was a major sea change moment for somebody personally. And now you have that background two years later and understand like, ⁓ this is why this might, this is the moment that this has all come to, chickens have come to roost or whatever. And Now I understand the perspective of it. Like oftentimes we come in for three or four months or less and have to ramp up and build a relationship and understand and be there and be positive and optimistic and all the right things knowing that our term is going to be a very short period of time we're engaging things, but they still need to feel all that warmth and all that love and all that empathy they would have with a partner that they might have for two years. That's just the ⁓ the operating model was moved. But I think it's
Belinda Murray: Do you find that challenging, Eric? Like is that, like do you find that challenging?
Eric Dunn: No, and here's why. think people successful in our business or any creative business these days are people that have to be hopelessly optimistic and Hopelessly optimistically, optimistic, and eternally like enthusiastic about ideas. Eternally enthusiastic and hopelessly optimistic. There we go. And I think that's part of like what people that have been very successful in this business have done and have always been and because that it's easier for us to bring into the room an energy that helps get people excited about ideas because frankly... If you aren't those things, I don't think you make it very far in the business. Like who wants Debbie Downer or Donald Downer to walk into a room and be like, here's this new campaign I got for you that's going to change the fortunes of your business.
Belinda Murray: Now hit No. Totally. Although, although, although, you know, there's a lot of times when your ideas just shut down.
Eric Dunn: Got a boss back. Got it, like you gotta be that rubber ball that hits the wall and bounces right back with even more energy. And actually, sometimes what we've found is like, oh, you said no, but it's forced us to have to rejigger this thing. Oh, this is actually even better. Thank you for saying no originally. We almost did something boring. So.
Belinda Murray: Yes, yes, I agree. Yeah. So do you think then that ego is, you know, like what's your view on ego? You know, like because a lot of creativity has ego or there's a lot of ego and yeah, we've all got an ego, don't get me wrong. And I'm not saying, you know, creatives are ego or anything like that. What would you say around ego though in... the industry and what you do because you have to lose You have to have the ability to, like you say, let it bounce off you so you bounce forward. And then generally find a new idea. But when your ego gets in the way, your ego goes, fuck this, like, ⁓ they don't get Do know what I mean? Like, their ⁓ ego starts kicking it's telling you, what would they know? They're useless.
Eric Dunn: Yeah.
Belinda Murray: you're too good or don't even try like you know what I mean like so what's your your only guy in this yeah
Eric Dunn: You know, some of it comes from seasoning and because I remember being, having, being that way back when I was a younger pup. ⁓ so that season comes with seasoning. I also think like I'm going to say a bunch of things here, but I want to want to make the point of like you can believe in an idea, but not be an asshole about it. Like like you can believe in an idea and for an idea, ⁓ be empathetic and respectful and not let your ego get in the way of of that might actually help ⁓ improve around the edges. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yes.
Eric Dunn: or at its core, I think that's very possible to do. very fortunate in that I have a creative partner who, has gotten seasoned and over time, I ⁓ think ⁓ shed artifice of ego while still being able to believe in ideas. And because we actually developed a process here that one of our clients actually called out and like, ⁓ yeah, we should... double down on that a little bit more on our conversations on how we pitch ourselves as an agency provider. But we get a brief and align to a brief with the client and then we'll go away for a week or two and come back with 15, 20 half-baked ideas ⁓ than like spend a month coming up with the campaign. And come to the clients and we'll say, hey, because it typically goes like you have a client or two, right? And those clients or two have multiple organizations, multiple parts of the organization they have to then report to and sell their ideas into, right? So we'll come to these clients after that two weeks of like playing around with a brief and here's 15, 20 ideas. Why don't you invite some of those other people are gonna have to sell stuff to into the room and let's throw it up on the wall and talk about it and talk about what works and what doesn't, what you like and what you don't, what's inspiring you, where things could go. involve them in the creative process so we can involve all that wonderful experience they have and all those perspectives in the actual development of the work. And it's not creative by committee because isn't a thing where like it's necessarily created by committee. It's like working together to work out a problem. But in the end, we're responsible for the end product. ⁓ we certain things and we're going to say respectfully, great feedback. We'll take that note. But we're going to do this with it. Or great feedback, but if we do that, we're going to have this problem. So you collaborate, but you also push back at the appropriate moments because you have knowledge that they don't have. And they have input that you don't have. And you've got to come together to put it together. So we do that earlier in the process without ego so that we get the better work in the end and get two ideas everyone in the organization is excited about. So we come back with two campaigns fleshed out that they actually have a hard time choosing between because they love them both. And we just want that process to be a lot more seamless and useful and helpful for our clients in like making their work lives go better. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I call it, we used to call it tissue sessions. You'd have tissue sessions. Here's a hot one for you. And I'm ask you a couple of final questions to wrap up our time together. Before I do that though, I did an improv course a couple of years ago now, know, kind of coming out of the industry and, you know, having some time out. And it was really interesting actually. And I loved it because of the creative aspect of it.
Eric Dunn: Yep.
Belinda Murray: and building on ideas and yes and and you know I notice and I do it and I got I got pulled up on it the other week this person and he's ⁓ stuck with me now in terms of he said stop using the word but and I was like he's you keep using the word but and however
Eric Dunn: Yep.
Belinda Murray: And it's, and I've even used a couple of times today because I think because I'm tired, I'm not using excuses. Although I do think it's a little bit of that. it's interesting when you stopped and said, ⁓ you know, that, you know, we'll take it to this. so ⁓ improv, it was around, yes, ⁓ what would say it's building. So it's a way of. potentially shutting down something without just cutting it off in terms of, and if you notice when you use the word but, and it'll be interesting to see when you go away post the show, how much more you think about the word but now, because but is just a cutoff, like it just cuts things off. Versus yes and, you know, like yes and on the idea. So when you're in that, you know, next.
Eric Dunn: Yeah.
Belinda Murray: ideation session if you like with a client and they say something and you go but you could say yes and like and so it was just so I love that for an improv and then recently getting called out that isn't language like it's a language ⁓ word we should not use and I'm like ⁓ and so all the listeners listening to this ⁓ often are you using but and if you are using it try using ⁓ improvise and you use another word and even if you get stuck on it and I've been doing it I've just been like because even chat or even Claude but but but but but but but but I'm like my gosh ⁓ such a blocker it's a blocker word
Eric Dunn: Yeah, it immediately invalidates whatever came before it, right? Rather than making it a building block for something to a ⁓ level. Yeah, it's good. ⁓
Belinda Murray: Totally. Yeah. So we're invalidating each other's points in the conversation whenever we use the word but.
Eric Dunn: Yeah, ⁓ a good way to think about it. It's a good perspective to bring to it.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, so there you go. We've both just had a really cool conversation around that. talked around, just quickly, you talked around, I've got two final questions for you. You talked around ⁓ work, ⁓ I don't believe in the word balance. ⁓ just said though, and I loved it, ⁓ loved what I heard, because you brought it right back to humans with regards to your clients. And ⁓ you have these sessions, ⁓ you everyone in the room, it's iterative, you know, it's building yes and it's that improv, ⁓ you know like it's like a jazz band for example and you can't and so then you can go away and continue to work on you know you know finessing the idea etc. brought in you brought up though that it also can excuse improve their life work do you mean by that when you say like yeah
Eric Dunn: their lives at work? Well... Because they've been able to include, like, one, let's be honest, oftentimes the most fun thing you could do in a given day if your agency is coming in is like, look at creative work and look at ideas and talk about those things, right? Otherwise, 90 % of the day is spreadsheets and moving paper around and trying to get, you know, this PO signed or whatever, or some technical issue if you're a product developer. When we... when our clients are able to bring all these people together, don't get to do that stuff and engage in their work and engage with this agency that's going to come in and talk about crazy stuff. They get to have a moment that that's inspirational for them and potentially, right? Or think about their work from a different perspective, which they can then take back to their jobs and go like, what if I did this? What is my yes and moment in this particular frame? Right. And that
Belinda Murray: Yeah.
Eric Dunn: in terms of our clients makes their lives easier at work because one, people have a little bit more empathy of like what our client has to deal with in the situations that they have to work through and that... how a campaign gets made. But two, our clients then get to be these people that are showcasing empathy with their coworkers, which frankly makes it easier for them to get stuff done with those coworkers down the line. Because there's been a moment, an opportunity for everyone to listen to one another and be respectful of each other's opinions. So that's where I think it helps make their lives a little bit easier at work sometimes.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, I love that. love that. Great, good response. I actually really love that response. Okay, final question. You're back out at sea, but this time, maybe you're the bird or maybe it's a leader out at sea. So you're a leader, you're an executive director, you're a co-founder. You're out at sea. There's nothing around you at all.
Eric Dunn: Yes.
Belinda Murray: and have this opportunity, you're on a journey to undiscovered spaces. ⁓ What? What would you be? my question here? I'm trying, I know what my question is. ⁓ just working out how to articulate it. So what I'm trying to say is. Where would you be exploring right now, ⁓ out at sea and there's nothingness around you and there's just all ⁓ areas, right? And there's all these undiscovered spaces and it back to kind of the real world in terms of, know, back into, you know, like coming back to California, for example. If there's one area you could discover right now, where would you be? guiding yourself to that. Does that make sense?
Eric Dunn: Yeah, it's like from an agency business perspective.
Belinda Murray: Yes.
Eric Dunn: I'm right now by how like building out a culture at work that can the most rewarding possible thing it can for people that work with us. That's where I'd want to, I think right now at this moment in time, point ourselves towards. Ultimately, think clients, whether you're doing a project or a long-term relationship with an agency, You're not really buying individuals. You're not buying past campaigns. Yeah, all that stuff gets somebody signed up, but you're really buying into a culture of the way work gets done and a culture that develops solutions for your problems and creativity. that culture comes from like, become part of that and stick around it ⁓ towards it. because of how it rewards them and how it makes them feel as individuals, people working with an agency. So I want to point my time and put some more effort towards what are the actual hard things we need to do to help reward people and help them improve and find their own paths and achieve their own goals in their careers. also live. fuller, richer lives. We talk a lot here about the four day work week. I've got this crazy idea of like offering up folks that work with us an opportunity to take summers off, to be with their kids and whatnot. Only so many people are going to be able to do that. But like, what kinds of things can we do to keep people fully charged and excited and enthusiastic about and optimistic, right? Eternally optimistic and enthusiastic about doing work. So that's where I want to put my time.
Belinda Murray: Yeah, love that. I'm going to share with you later today. read a little bit about flow science as individual ⁓ triggers and then there's group flow triggers. And it's really impactful when it comes to building out your culture and as a collective. So ⁓ send you through some stuff on that that we can chat about later. Yeah, it's fascinating.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Welcome. Rock on. I'd like that.
Belinda Murray: Yeah. Eric, how do we find out more about heebie dragons and how do we find out more about yee?
Eric Dunn: Well for me it's always LinkedIn. Just find Eric Dunn and Here Be Dragons on LinkedIn. You can check me out. Our website www.hbdagency.com. Yes, Happy Birthday Agency or Here Be Dragons Agency is where you can find us. Check out the work. Let us know what you think. Drop us a line.
Belinda Murray: Thank you. Yeah, I love it. And thank you so much, Eric. I've loved this conversation. It's been a good one. just, yeah, just, I don't know, just what's the letter looking for? Really just nice way to start my Friday. So thank you so much for your time. And for all the listeners, I hope that everyone, well, I'm sure everyone got a lot out of this one because, you know, it is in times of nothingness that we do get the most clarity to then take us forward and then to be able to really explore the undiscovered.
Eric Dunn: We're awesome.
Belinda Murray: spaces and in those undiscovered spaces anything is possible.
Eric Dunn: Yeah. Well, B, thanks very much for having me. I really enjoyed this chat. Yeah, we'll chat a little bit more about some flow science here in the next few days. Yeah, have a killer fri-
Belinda Murray: You're welcome. Yeah, definitely. Take care. Thanks, Eric. See you.
