The Scientific Case for Self-Compassion | Chris Germer

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From ABC, this is the 10% Happier podcast.
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I'm Dan Harris.
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Hey, gang, we're back with episode two of our New
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Year's series. We know there's a lot of pressure at
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this time of year to make big changes in your life.
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But our suspicion here at 10% Happier is that a
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lot of this New Year's resolution messaging is rooted in self-loathing.
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As you're going to hear from my guest today, there's
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often a subtle aggression to self-improvement. So as you may know,
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we're kicking off 2021 with a special series of podcasts
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where we're counter-programming against the new year, new you noise.
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We're arguing that before you try to boot up an
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exercise habit or change the way you eat, all of
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which can be very positive for the record, but before
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you dive into that kind of stuff, maybe there is
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an uber habit, an upstream habit that you should consider
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forming first. The skill of being able to have a warmer,
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friendlier attitude toward yourself. to give a crap about yourself,
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to have your own back. This skill is sometimes referred
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to as self-love or self-compassion. And I know these terms
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can be a bit off-putting for some of you, but
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as my guest today will demonstrate, there is a ton
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of scientific evidence to suggest that this is truly the
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more effective and wiser path. Before we dive in, though,
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with my guest, Chris Germer, a few items of business.
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These will be quick.
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Number one, if you missed our series kickoff episode on
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Monday with Jeff Warren and Susan Piver, I definitely recommend
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you go check that out. You're going to hear all
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kinds of useful, practical wisdom for how and why you
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should love yourself or care about yourself or whatever phraseology
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you prefer. Business item number two, if you go and
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listen to that podcast, you will also get a preview
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of the free New Year's Meditation Challenge we are launching
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this in the 10% Happier app in just a few days.
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If you want to sign up, just download the app
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wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. That's
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all one word spelled out. If you already have the app,
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good for you. Just open it up and follow the
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instructions to join. It'll be 21 days. Every day, you'll
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get a little bit of video followed by a guided
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audio meditation from Jeff Warren, Susan Piver, Tuareg Salah, and
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other amazing meditation teachers.
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It's going to be great.
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Okay, now to today's episode. The aforementioned Chris Germer is
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a clinical psychologist and a lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard
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Medical School. He also co-developed a highly impactful program called
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Mindful Self-Compassion, which has been taught to over 100,000 people
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across the world. By the way, he's co-founder. is Kristen Neff,
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who has been on the show a couple of times.
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And one of her episodes, which we entitled Kryptonite for
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the Inner Critic, we just reposted it in mid-December. So
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if you want to go check that out, it's in
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your feed. In this episode, though, we talk about the
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science-based case for self-compassion, how to put self-compassion to practice
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in your actual life, the disutility of shame, and the
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connection between self-compassion and having compassion for other people. Oh,
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we also take some listener voicemails. So a lot going
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on here.
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Here we go.
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Chris Germer. Chris Germer, nice to meet you. Thanks for
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coming on.
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Thanks, Dan. It's great to be here.
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I've heard about you for years, so I'm excited to
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talk to you. I think it might make sense to
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get you to talk a little bit about how you
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came into contact with this whole notion of self-compassion. I
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understand that you share with me some anxiety around public
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speaking and that that's part of the genesis here.
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That's true. And we're right now speaking in public. Isn't
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that amazing?
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Yeah.
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So I've been working for a really long time in
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the field of mindfulness and psychotherapy. I also first learned
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mindfulness meditation when I was 25. You know, now I'm
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67 years old. So it's been very much a part
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of my life. But throughout this period, I really have
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not been particularly interested in kindness toward myself or, in general,
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loving kindness, meditation, and so forth, which is really a
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core part of mindfulness, but it just wasn't for me.
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But since I graduated from Temple University with a PhD
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in clinical psychology, for the It was so bad once
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that when I was giving a talk to clinicians about mindfulness,
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I couldn't even speak. So someone in the back of
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the room yells out, take a breath, because nothing came
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out of my mouth when I went up to the podium,
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you know. So it was a pretty, it was really
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a difficult experience. And then in 2005, colleagues at the
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Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy and I wrote an edited book,
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Mindfulness and Psychotherapy, and it was really the first time
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that the fields of mindfulness and psychotherapy were brought together
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in a book. And so after that, I had a
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lot of invitations to speak. And in particular, we had
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organized the conference at Harvard Medical School on this subject.
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And so I knew I would have to speak. And
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I was completely panic-stricken about this because most of the time,
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though I've been on the faculty at Harvard Medical School,
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it's always been kind of in the wings. And now
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I'd be sort of more public. And with each passing
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day and week, I just became more and more petrified
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about this experience because I expected I would be basically
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humiliated in front of my colleagues. And in particular, as
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you can imagine, Dan, if you're trying to talk about
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mindfulness and you're so nervous you can't even speak, it
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really implies that you're, for me anyway, it implied, you know,
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I'm incompetent, I'm fraudulent, I'm stupid, and I didn't want
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anybody to have those kind of thoughts. So I learned
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loving-kindness meditation for the first time. I was on a
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retreat and fretting about this and some other things. And
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the meditation teacher basically, in a short interview, said, you know, Chris,
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why don't you just sit on your cushion and just
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love yourself? No matter what's going on, just love yourself.
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Say kind words to yourself like, may I be safe,
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may I be peaceful, may I be healthy, like that.
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So I did it. And Immediately, I started to feel better.
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All the self-absorption and the rumination and the futurizing and catastrophizing,
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it just kind of slipped away because I was just
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kind of comforting myself as I might somebody else. So
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I thought this can't be a bad thing. So when
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I got home from the retreat, still four months prior
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to the conference, every morning I'd just sit on a cushion,
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I'd meditate. loving kindness meditation. And then whenever I thought
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about this horrifying conference, I would just be kind to myself,
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simply because I was so frightened. But also, I had
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at that time, Dan, what you'd call the gift of desperation.
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I was actually considered and considered myself an expert in
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anxiety disorders. And I had tried everything under the sun,
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including beta blockers and Certainly mindfulness meditation, exposure, everything, nothing worked.
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I felt really just broken. You know, I'm just sort
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of disabled in this way. And with nothing left to
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fix me or fix the problem, I just loved myself,
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you know, just like I was instructed in the retreat.
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And I did this in the months coming up to
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the conference. And so what was happening is basically terror, kindness, terror, kindness.
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And then when the actual conference came and I was introduced,
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I got up to speak and the usual terror arose
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with me. But there was a new voice in the
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back of my head. And that voice basically was the
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one that I'd been saying for four months, which was, oh,
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may you be safe. May you be peaceful. May you
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be healthy. And it was just like a rush of
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warmth that flooded over me. And I looked out over
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the crowd, like about 600 people in this posh hotel room.
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And I just had so much confidence. love for the audience.
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I had the same feeling like, oh, I just hope
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everybody really enjoys themselves, that everybody's happy. And this, Dan,
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was really different, okay? Because as you know from having
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experienced panic in a public setting, when we're in a
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state of fear, usually the audience is the enemy. For me,
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with public speaking anxiety, the audience was the enemy. But
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in this case, they were beautiful to me. So I
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learned a few things right there, Dan. The first thing
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I learned was self-kindness, self-compassion very quickly turns into compassion
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for others. I saw that instantly right there. The next
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thing that I learned is that, and this came a
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little bit later, is that public speaking anxiety, at least
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for me, was not an anxiety disorder. That I was
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trying to solve problems a problem which actually wasn't the problem.
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Public speaking anxiety for me was a shame disorder. In
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other words, behind it was this crippling fear that I'd
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be considered fraudulent or stupid or incompetent by the participants
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at this conference. That possibility was just so awful to
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me that I just couldn't even feel it. So what
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I did is I was basically trying to deal with
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what was obvious, which was anxiety, but that wasn't the problem.
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If you lose a key on a path in the
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dark and you want to find the key, do you
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look where the lamp is, where the light is, or
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where you lost the key, you know? So I had
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lost the key. I couldn't find it. But what was
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quite amazing is that this practice of self-compassion not only
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started to solve the shame problem without me even knowing
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I had a shame problem, but then I also afterwards
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discovered that this was what it was. And then I've
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really basically, to be honest, spent the last 15 years
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slowly chipping away at that. But the main thing that
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I learned in terms of the professional side of this, Dan,
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is that there's a slight difference between mindfulness and self-compassion.
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Mindfulness is kind of a loving awareness of moment-to-moment experience,
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like this physical sensation or this emotion. Self-compassion is a
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loving awareness of the experiencer or the person. What self-compassion
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does is it actually allows us to hold ourselves as
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a trembling, broken, or imperfect person in a way that
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we actually then have the capacity to hold our experience.
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And this was hugely important to me as a clinical
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psychologist because in clinical psychology, we're always working with intense
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and disturbing emotions. And we naturally, as clinicians, are holding
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emotionally the client. But when we're with ourselves, can we
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hold ourselves in such a way that we can then
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hold the experience? So what I learned is to add
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self-compassion to the practice of mindfulness such that we first
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sometimes hold ourselves, and then we can more readily hold
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our experience. And that's what got me into this whole thing.
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Then I met Kristen Neff, and the rest is history.
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Kristen Neff, I should say, just for those who... Don't
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know who she is. She's been on the show a
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couple of times and she, along with Chris, have really
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been at the vanguard of driving the scientific research as
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well as the popularization of self-compassion. I want to do
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one more clarifying point and then I have a million questions.
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Clarifying point is, so it's New Year's, I suspect we
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may be getting some listeners who are new. So you've
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talked a lot about mindfulness meditation and loving kindness meditation.
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I just want to take 30 seconds to just define
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some terms here for people who are are new to
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the show. So mindfulness meditation generally is you're watching something
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like your breath, you sit, you feel your breath coming
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in and going out. And then every time you get distracted,
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you start again and again and again. And the instruction,
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which I ignored 50% of, because I share a lot
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in common with you, Chris, in terms of, I was
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interested in mindfulness, not so much in loving kindness. But
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the instruction is to view whatever comes up with non-judgmental,
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but also sort of warm or loving, a warm or
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loving attitude. I erred on the side of the non-judgmental,
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you know, so anger would come up in my mind or,
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you know, random thoughts or whatever, and I would try
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to clinically note it, but there was some aversion in there.
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I wasn't really bringing any warmth or friendliness to my
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own sort of difficult emotions, et cetera, et cetera. There
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is another practice that is taught alongside mindfulness meditation classically,
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but has been sort of underappreciated, I fear, in the
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modern meditation movement, which is the loving-kindness practice, which is very,
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very cheesy at first for people, but you sort of
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sit and you envision a series of beings. Often you
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start with yourself. Sounds like you were instructed to really
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just stay with yourself. And you repeat phrases like, may
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you be happy, may you be safe, may you be healthy,
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may you live with ease, etc.
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etc.
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Again, it sounds very, very cheesy, and it is, but there, again,
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is a bunch of science that suggests it really works.
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And in particular, in conjunction, these two really work together.
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As Chris said, you can start to really have some
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warmth and friendliness toward whatever comes up in your mind
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and some warmth and friendliness toward the mind that is
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experiencing all of this. So having said all of that,
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just getting it out there so that people are clear
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on terms, You mentioned that it took several decades of
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meditation practice before you got interested in the self-compassion or
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loving-kindness side of this. And you said something like, it
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wasn't for me. Was the hang-up there that you just
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found it to be inexcusably cheesy? Or why didn't you
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do this until you were desperate? Yeah.
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So I just love the word cheesy, and that's what
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it was. It just seemed cheesy to me. But there's
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also another aspect. I first actually learned to meditate with
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Transcendental Meditation. And in that practice, you have a mantra,
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which technically doesn't have a meaning. And so I think
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in my first exposure to meditation, I developed kind of
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an aversion to meaningful words. And the idea was that
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if you have meaningful words, it kind of ties you
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down and you don't transcend or you don't actually get
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beyond your own individual story so much. So I think
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this was a kind of an unconscious bias. Plus, I
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just really loved spaciousness and awareness for its own sake.
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And so none of this has to do with repeating phrases.
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So I think that was just a kind of partly unconscious,
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partly conscious aversion. But the irony is, is that thing
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that I was feeling aversion toward, like, completely changed my
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life for the better, you know? Isn't it often like that?
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Over and over in my life, that has been the case.
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Over and over.
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So how do you deal with public speaking now? I mean,
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how are you feeling right now?
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Oh, well, I've always been okay when there's been a
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sense of connection. And so I'm feeling delighted, you know,
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feeling connected with you. But mostly I have to say
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I really haven't had much public speaking anxiety since then.
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I can say that when there is a bit, then
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I immediately practice self-compassion. So I might, for example, just
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realize when I'm feeling anxious and then put a hand
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over my chest, maybe a hand over my belly, and
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just gently rub my body in that way, and actually
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just make some sounds like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And
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it activates a different state of mind. We know from
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the research it activates a different physiology. And that's not
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the physiology of fear, you know, it's the physiology of
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safety and a sense of safeness and security. We can,
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and I do in the case of when I have
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bits of public speaking anxiety or other kinds of anxiety,
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we can actually change our own physiology for the better.
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So I am, you know, now an unabashed advocate for
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self-compassion or even, you know, for Loving kindness and compassion,
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I am also an unabashed advocate of directing it beyond myself. However,
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this whole idea of putting my hand on my heart
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or my belly and making sympathetic noises, I have not
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been able to get over that. And Kristen Neff, your co-conspirator,
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has shown me the science, and I believe her, but
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I still struggle with that.
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You looking for some advice, Dan? What would you say, Chris,
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if somebody said that to you?
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You could take it or leave it. If you want
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to respond, that's fine. I'm just putting it out there.
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I don't think I'm alone that this seems like a
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bridge too far for me.
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At least.
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Yeah. And there are so many what we call obstacles
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to compassion. There are cultural obstacles that So, for example,
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in just about every culture I've ever visited, and I've
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been all over the world with this, there's usually some
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argument for how being kind to yourself is less valuable
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than being kind to others and is, in fact, selfish.
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There's a kind of a cultural prohibition to self-kindness, but
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also there are lots of personal obstacles to it. So,
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for example... If you're a person who has a lot
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of ambition, you may have gotten there by pushing through and,
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in fact, by denying how you feel. I'm not saying
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this is you.
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Oh, it's definitely me.
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You as a person? Yes. Okay. So there's a kind
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of a deeply entrenched habit of, no, I'm not going
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to stop here, turn around and be kind to myself.
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I have to just keep going. That's how I succeed.
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I also think it's kind of a masculine approach to problems. Basically,
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there's a lot of training, which has basically told us
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that to stop, to open to how we're feeling, and
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to respond with some kind of kindness is not going
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to be good. It's not going to yield the kind
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of consequences that That we want, you know, it's going
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to make us weak. It's going to make us fail.
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It's going to make us lose motivation. It's going to
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make us depressed. It's going to make us more anxious.
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It's going to, there's all sorts of fears. So it's
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really helpful actually to explore when I think about self-compassion
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or when I'm about to give myself compassion, maybe even
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putting a hand over the heart or something, what comes
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up for me? You know, in other words, why is
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that difficult for me?
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You know?
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It's good to ask the question and it's usually not personal.
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It's usually something we've been told or something we've been
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trained not to do for some reason. Does that resonate
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for you in any way, Dan?
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Absolutely.
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I mean, I would encourage people to go back and
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listen because we just reposted very recently toward the end
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of 2020, we reposted an interview I did with the
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aforementioned Kristen Neff in which we talked about some of
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the kind of culturally embedded sexism, which would block a
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lot of people, men and women, from embracing some of
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this stuff.
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And I really buy that.
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I've noticed in my own life that, and this is
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very recent, actually, that I'm engaged in a bit of
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a self-dialogue around, like, who cares, Dan? Just embrace the cheese.
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Go for it.
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It works.
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And I know it works.
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And so every time I can get over the hump
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and just be like, you know, just convince myself, it's
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no big deal. Just go for it. I'm always glad
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I did. So let's get into New Year's. Because we're,
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this episode is being posted as we enter into 2021.
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And a lot of people are looking to change things
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about themselves. But You know, as I understand it, your argument,
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and this is one I would co-sign on enthusiastically, is
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that the uber habit to change, the ur-habit, the upstream
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habit to all healthy habits would be adopting self-compassion because
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everything flows out of that. Do you agree with what
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I just said?
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Yes, I would. I would. Insofar as self-compassion also cultivates authenticity.
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It actually increases motivation. It really is a foundation because
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it helps us to see more clearly who we are,
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what is doable, and it provides motivation.
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To do it.
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Speaking from experience and just understanding human nature, I think
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a lot of us this time of year are deciding, hey,
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we're going to lose X number of pounds or we're
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going to start an exercise habit or we're going to
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start a meditation habit or whatever it is because we're
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running some script in our mind about how we're deficient
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and we need to whip ourselves into shape, et cetera,
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et cetera. There's some hostility behind the resolutions. And it
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seems like if, and I know a lot of people
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fear that if they're nice to themselves, they'll lose motivation.
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But your research suggests that people have increased motivation, just
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like having a nice persistent coach in your head as
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opposed to a malevolent drill sergeant.
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That's precisely what it is. But what I'm really appreciating
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about what you said, Dan, is the subtle intention behind
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the New Year's resolution. That intention actually, in my view,
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is the deciding factor over whether or not what we
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intend to do is going to work. And so if
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the intention arises out of inadequacy or shame about inadequacy,
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and we kind of try to superimpose some grand plan
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on that, it has the seeds of its own failure
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right in it, because it's basically driven by shame. And
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shame is deeply demotivating. There's a meditation teacher in Australia,
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Bob Sharples, who talks about the subtle aggression of self-improvement.
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And that's often what New Year's resolutions are. They are
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subtle aggressions. It's like, honey, you don't look good enough
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and nobody's ever going to love you the way you look.
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So therefore, what you should do is to lose some weight.
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And then before you know it, you're basically breaking your
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heart every day because of some commitment that was made
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out of the a sense of inadequacy. So the alternative
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then is, what would it be like not to commit
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to something that's good for us, not based on inadequacy,
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but based on love, based on a deep appreciation of
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who we are? And in my view, there's just a
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little shift which we need to do in order to
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get there, and that is to focus not on goals,
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but on our core values. So that's a whole larger conversation.
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What's the core value? But core values, they're basically that
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which gives our life meaning, such as creativity, adventure, compassion, truth,
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things like that. But when it's a genuine core value,
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it actually energizes us. If it's just a social norm,
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And we're buying into it because we happen to live
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in the society, but it doesn't resonate deep inside of us.
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It'll actually suck the energy out of us. So if
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I'm trying to lose weight because it's a social norm,
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it's demotivating. However, if I want to lose weight because
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I can kind of feel what it's like to be
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as healthy as possible, then there's a different foundation for it.
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It's actually on the foundation of kindness because our core
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values are as close to who we are as anything,
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even closer to who we are than our own bodies.
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Our bodies change, but our core values are likely to
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persist throughout our lifetime. So if we can connect with
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a core value, that's, I think, a way better approach
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to New Year's resolutions. And it's really a difference between
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a goal and a core value. A goal could be,
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I want to lose 20 pounds. A core value is,
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I want to be as healthy as possible. So on
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the foundation of I want to be as healthy as possible,
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then the next question is, okay, so how do I
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do that? You get what I'm saying, Dan? This is
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putting the whole New Year's resolution thing on a different footing.
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Yeah, because if your motivation is to look like your
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favorite Instagram influencer, then That is likely to drive you
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pretty quickly into the realm of shame because it's probably impossible.
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And even if it is possible, it may not be sustainable.
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And by the way, that influencer is probably editing his
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or her images anyway. If your motivation is, I want
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to be as healthy as possible. In my case, it's
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I want to be as healthy as possible so that
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I can be around for my young son. When I
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can connect to that, well, that burns much cleaner and
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in a much more sustainable way.
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I love that metaphor, it burns cleaner. Yes, that's what
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it is. You don't just get, you know, choking on
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the smoke that comes from burning on shame, you know?
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I think I can see this connection, but I'd be
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interested to hear from you as the expert. What exactly
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is the connection between self-compassion, having sort of warmth directed
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towards your own, as you said before, sort of brokenness
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or fallibility, and connecting to your core values?
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Well, for starters, in order to be genuinely compassionate with ourselves,
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we need to know who we are. And who we
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are is what gives our lives meaning. And those are
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our core values. So, for example, if you go to
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a funeral and you're listening to a eulogy, Inevitably, what
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people are talking about is kind of the red thread
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that ran through a person's life. What were the values
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that this mishap and that success all pointed toward? So basically,
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when you're looking at a person's lifespan and talking about
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the person, you're really talking about their core values. So
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this is who we are. And if you want to
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be compassionate to that person, you need to know what
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matters for that person. So, and our suffering is also
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kind of held in our core values, you know? So
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for example, if I lose my job and I love
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free time, it's, you know, whoopee, I'm free. But if
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I lose my job and I'm trying to support a family,
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it's a catastrophe. So our core values and our suffering
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is closely related. So when we're going to be kind
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to ourselves, it's not one size fits all. We In
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that regard, it's also a practice in authenticity.
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Authenticity.
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That might be worth saying more about that because that's
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one of these words I have a deep aversion to
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sort of.
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Cliche or buzzword.
475
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.829
And yet I feel the frustrating thing about cliches and
476
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.869
is that they're generally true and really powerful. But so
477
00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:52.630
authenticity is a word that gets thrown around a lot.
478
00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:55.029
What do you mean by authenticity?
479
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.420
Well, to be honest, before agreeing to this interview, I
480
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.220
asked my friends, what was it like being interviewed by
481
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.279
Dan Harris? And they said, well, he's a very authentic guy.
482
00:30:07.579 --> 00:30:11.819
He will talk about his experience in a truthful way.
483
00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:16.579
In other words, authenticity, you could say, means when our thoughts,
484
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.609
our words, our emotions, and our actions are in alignment.
485
00:30:22.869 --> 00:30:26.150
Like even in the last half hour as when we're speaking,
486
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:29.730
I sort of learn to trust that what you're saying
487
00:30:29.849 --> 00:30:34.329
is honest or authentic. And so that creates a kind
488
00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:39.589
of trust in me, but also when we are authentic,
489
00:30:39.670 --> 00:30:45.339
we frankly trust ourselves. We don't second guess ourselves. It's like,
490
00:30:45.930 --> 00:30:47.740
you don't have to believe me if you want, but
491
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:49.680
this is what I think, this is what I know,
492
00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:53.910
this is my experience. A nice example is, this is
493
00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:59.130
a story I heard about Martin Luther, the original Martin Luther,
494
00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:03.079
is that he was... So, you know, if there's a
495
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:05.519
historian in the room, I'd love to be corrected if
496
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:08.920
this is wrong. But he was being tried for his
497
00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:16.210
heretical thoughts vis-a-vis the Catholic Church. And the judge, prior
498
00:31:16.230 --> 00:31:21.099
to sentencing, said, here's the deal. I'm going to read
499
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:23.700
what it is that you said, and then you have
500
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:29.259
a chance to deny it. And if you say, I
501
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.420
don't believe this, you can go free. But if you say,
502
00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:39.000
I do believe this, the punishment is death. Do you understand,
503
00:31:39.079 --> 00:31:44.369
Martin Luther? And then when this actually happened in the courtroom,
504
00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:51.839
Martin Luther's response was, I know no other. I know
505
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.339
no other. So on pain of death, you know, he
506
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:59.450
would have wished to not believe this anymore, but that
507
00:31:59.490 --> 00:32:03.549
was the only thing he knew. This is radical authenticity,
508
00:32:03.589 --> 00:32:06.750
even on pain of death. And it's the kind of thing,
509
00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:09.369
I think, which allows us to be unshakable.
510
00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:10.019
You know?
511
00:32:10.819 --> 00:32:13.579
I think the kids call that keeping it real. So
512
00:32:13.819 --> 00:32:19.500
let's go back to self-compassion as a habit. that you
513
00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:23.809
would argue, and again, I would second this argument, as
514
00:32:23.849 --> 00:32:27.130
a habit that would be a great foundational habit to
515
00:32:27.210 --> 00:32:29.970
form before attacking anything else.
516
00:32:31.390 --> 00:32:33.670
I want to ask you one.
517
00:32:34.609 --> 00:32:36.750
Skeptical question, and then I want to get into some
518
00:32:36.789 --> 00:32:39.119
details about how we actually form that habit. But the
519
00:32:39.130 --> 00:32:41.720
skeptical question I think we've touched on this a little bit,
520
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.599
but I think it's worth going at directly because I
521
00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:46.119
know that you've heard this from a million people. I've
522
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.509
heard it from a million people. I've heard these concerns
523
00:32:48.549 --> 00:32:52.210
escape my own lips. If we're too kind to ourselves,
524
00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:56.009
we're going to slide into sloppy resignation. We won't get
525
00:32:56.069 --> 00:32:58.799
anything done. We won't lose the weight that we think
526
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:00.720
we need to lose. We won't, et cetera, et cetera,
527
00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:03.680
et cetera. What is your pushback on that? And is
528
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:04.880
there science to back it up?
529
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.920
It's not kind to ourselves to live a life of resignation.
530
00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:14.970
It's not kind to ourselves to be sloppy. It's not
531
00:33:15.089 --> 00:33:20.029
kind to ourselves to do anything that is going to
532
00:33:20.910 --> 00:33:24.069
diminish the quality of our lives. So if it appears
533
00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:27.369
that self-compassion with doing that, whatever it is that we
534
00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:30.339
are doing, I would say is not self-compassion and we
535
00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:36.069
should stop it. Fortunately, the research is really quite clear
536
00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:40.089
that when one does practice self-compassion, that what you've described
537
00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:45.519
doesn't happen. Again, when people are self-compassionate, they live closer
538
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:49.559
to their core values. When people are self-compassionate, they usually
539
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:53.259
have more energy to pursue their goals. Interestingly, their goals
540
00:33:53.299 --> 00:33:57.539
are just as high as people who are not self-compassionate,
541
00:33:58.059 --> 00:34:02.259
but there's more energy and effort, frankly, to achieve them.
542
00:34:03.740 --> 00:34:07.980
So I would just like to say that self-compassion means
543
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:12.380
caring for ourselves in the deepest way. In other words,
544
00:34:12.619 --> 00:34:15.840
to bear in mind that whatever we do has short-term
545
00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:19.909
and long-term benefits and to keep the long-term benefits in
546
00:34:19.949 --> 00:34:23.329
mind as well. In other words, you know, sloppiness now,
547
00:34:23.349 --> 00:34:25.710
if it's going to lead at the end of the
548
00:34:25.750 --> 00:34:28.789
day to something better, then let's do it. But if
549
00:34:28.829 --> 00:34:31.849
it's just sloppiness, why do it? That's not self-compassionate. That's
550
00:34:31.889 --> 00:34:33.329
just harming ourselves.
551
00:34:34.409 --> 00:34:36.130
So if people are with us thus far, they might
552
00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:38.380
be thinking, okay, Germer and Harris, I get it.
553
00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:39.429
I'm sold.
554
00:34:39.909 --> 00:34:41.679
How do I actually do this? How do I make
555
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:43.260
self-compassion a habit?
556
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:45.059
Yeah.
557
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:49.260
So the first thing is to understand that for a
558
00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:53.519
lot of us, it's a little bit like redirecting a
559
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:56.480
big ship. In other words, we are a large accumulation
560
00:34:56.500 --> 00:35:02.250
of habits. And so the main problem is people think, oh,
561
00:35:02.269 --> 00:35:05.030
you know, I'm going to you know, give myself six
562
00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:07.619
weeks or six months to be self-compassionate. So we have
563
00:35:07.659 --> 00:35:10.320
to be patient. And I can tell you that since
564
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:14.940
I learned self-compassion back in the story I described in 2006,
565
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:19.849
I've been steadily learning to be more and more self-compassionate.
566
00:35:20.530 --> 00:35:23.110
So it's been now 14 years, and I feel like
567
00:35:23.329 --> 00:35:29.210
I'm still maybe one-third along the way. So patience is
568
00:35:29.250 --> 00:35:34.039
really important. The simplest way, there are two different really
569
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:39.519
simple ways of answering the question, what should I do?
570
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:46.610
And the first is the quintessential self-compassion question, which is,
571
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:51.130
what do you need? What do you need? Now, people
572
00:35:51.170 --> 00:35:54.829
don't usually ask us this question. Frankly, they're more concerned
573
00:35:54.869 --> 00:35:59.010
about their own needs than ours, you know? But how
574
00:35:59.130 --> 00:36:03.090
often do we ask ourselves the question, what do I need?
575
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:08.559
So just asking that question of ourselves is a profound
576
00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:13.619
self-compassionate act. That's a bold, you know, turn of the
577
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.099
wheel on the big ship, you might say, to start
578
00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:18.679
putting in a new direction. What do I need? But
579
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:20.900
usually when we ask this question, we don't even know
580
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.960
the answer. It's like, need? What do you mean, what
581
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:26.210
do I need? I don't know what I need. So
582
00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:29.150
then it helps to kind of be a little more specific.
583
00:36:29.730 --> 00:36:32.469
So to think of different kinds of needs. What do
584
00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:35.280
I need to comfort myself? What do I need to
585
00:36:35.429 --> 00:36:39.280
soothe myself? What do I need to validate myself? What
586
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:41.780
do I need to protect myself? What do I need
587
00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:45.760
to provide for myself? What do I need to motivate myself?
588
00:36:46.980 --> 00:36:48.380
So that's the first question. What do I need? The
589
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:51.980
second question, Dan, is when we're in a tough spot
590
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.639
and we want to be self-compassionate, to simply ask the question,
591
00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:00.389
how would I treat a really good friend right now?
592
00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:05.010
What would I say? What would I do? What would
593
00:37:05.050 --> 00:37:08.579
my attitude be? If I knew somebody who was in
594
00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:12.420
the same predicament as I, and I really liked that person,
595
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.840
what would I say or do? How would I treat
596
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:22.840
a friend? And that is a really powerful question when
597
00:37:22.889 --> 00:37:25.889
we're suffering, because the first instinct that we have when
598
00:37:25.929 --> 00:37:29.239
we're suffering is, not to be kind to ourselves. The
599
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.699
first instinct is to crack the whip. The first instinct
600
00:37:32.780 --> 00:37:36.059
is to criticize ourselves. The first instinct is to kind
601
00:37:36.099 --> 00:37:42.519
of isolate ourselves. Basically, shame response. But how would I
602
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.780
treat a friend? So these are two, you might say,
603
00:37:46.179 --> 00:37:51.900
questions which start the journey to being more self-compassionate. And
604
00:37:51.940 --> 00:37:53.900
these questions can be asked over and over again. You
605
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:57.010
can ask yourself the question, Like, what do I need
606
00:37:57.030 --> 00:38:00.610
the moment you wake up, you know? It might be,
607
00:38:00.630 --> 00:38:02.550
you know what, I don't need coffee, I need tea,
608
00:38:02.750 --> 00:38:05.989
or I don't need either coffee or tea. These are
609
00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:08.329
interesting questions. It puts everything on a new footing.
610
00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:11.989
Yeah, I've noticed myself getting into this a little bit because,
611
00:38:12.289 --> 00:38:16.710
first of all, to double-click on the notion of patience
612
00:38:16.730 --> 00:38:21.960
that you mentioned before, in my Exploration of self-compassion has
613
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:27.369
been very slow and it's required a lot of self-compassion
614
00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:31.110
to keep going because every time I notice I'm not
615
00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:34.289
doing it, I need to bring some self-compassion to bear.
616
00:38:34.989 --> 00:38:38.340
Thank you for that. That is absolutely essential on this journey,
617
00:38:38.530 --> 00:38:42.039
what you just said. This cannot be more important. It
618
00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:45.719
is hugely important, what you just said, to be self-compassionate
619
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:48.659
with ourselves on the path to self-compassion.
620
00:38:49.579 --> 00:38:51.860
Often I've had to hear it from other people. I'll
621
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:55.699
be working with, you know, somebody, a shrink or a
622
00:38:55.739 --> 00:38:58.539
coach or whatever, and we'll be working on something and
623
00:38:58.619 --> 00:39:01.820
I'll be beating myself up for not having applied whatever
624
00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:04.639
skill they're trying to teach me. And then they'll have
625
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.159
to say, well, why, how do you think the beating
626
00:39:07.179 --> 00:39:10.239
yourself up helps? And so, but over time, I've started
627
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.269
to be able to catch myself doing that and sometimes
628
00:39:13.349 --> 00:39:15.769
stop it. But as to this idea of what do
629
00:39:15.809 --> 00:39:18.510
you need right now is going to bring up another
630
00:39:18.610 --> 00:39:21.800
sort of cheesy expression, but we're in the mode here
631
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:25.320
of embracing the cheese. So I will notice I'll be writing,
632
00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:29.139
I'm writing a book or I'll be writing introductions for
633
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:34.539
this podcast or I'll be working on anything difficult. And
634
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:39.409
sometimes I'll hit a wall of fatigue or some sort
635
00:39:39.429 --> 00:39:44.789
of physical, physiological resistance. And my old mode was to
636
00:39:44.829 --> 00:39:48.690
just plow through all of that, usually with disastrous results
637
00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:52.369
like bad work or being crabby with the people around me.
638
00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:55.550
And I'm now starting to once in a while, once
639
00:39:55.690 --> 00:39:57.840
in a while, like one out of 20 times, I
640
00:39:57.860 --> 00:39:59.840
will say, oh, yeah, what do I need right now?
641
00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.739
Maybe I just need to lie down and meditate right now.
642
00:40:03.099 --> 00:40:05.840
Yeah. And you could probably have much more energy and
643
00:40:06.019 --> 00:40:08.760
fun with the same thing 10 minutes later after a
644
00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:09.300
little nap.
645
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:11.199
Exactly right.
646
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.360
Exactly.
647
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.119
Much more of my conversation with Chris Germer coming up
648
00:40:16.300 --> 00:40:22.800
right after this. Hey, just a reminder before we dive
649
00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:27.030
back in on self-compassion with Chris, to help you learn
650
00:40:27.429 --> 00:40:30.909
how to actually practice self-compassion, we are running a free
651
00:40:30.929 --> 00:40:35.070
21-day meditation challenge in the 10% Happier app starting Monday,
652
00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:37.389
January 4th. Our teachers will be guiding you through a
653
00:40:37.489 --> 00:40:43.219
series of meditations demonstrating the benefits of developing self-love, self-compassion, acceptance,
654
00:40:43.260 --> 00:40:45.440
whatever you want to call it, and also showing you
655
00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:49.579
how to actually do it. Our challenges are specifically designed
656
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:52.530
to help you form a habit. They include my interviews
657
00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:56.409
with meditation teachers explaining exactly what you're doing and why
658
00:40:56.429 --> 00:40:59.650
you're doing it, as well as daily meditation reminders from
659
00:40:59.690 --> 00:41:02.349
the app. You can join the challenge by downloading the
660
00:41:02.349 --> 00:41:05.369
10% Happier app today wherever you get your apps or
661
00:41:05.449 --> 00:41:11.389
by visiting 10%.com. That's 10%, all one word spelled out,. com.
662
00:41:11.449 --> 00:41:12.949
And if you already have the app, just open it
663
00:41:13.010 --> 00:41:16.179
up and follow the instructions to join. All right, let's
664
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.480
get back to my interview now with Chris Germer. So
665
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.469
back to habits and how we make this a habit.
666
00:41:23.710 --> 00:41:25.849
I'm going to extrapolate, and you'll tell me if I'm
667
00:41:25.909 --> 00:41:28.369
right here, from the story you told at the beginning
668
00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:34.179
of this interview with your own public speaking fear, what
669
00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:38.599
it seemed allowed for you to turn the ship around,
670
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:42.820
to stick with your metaphor, was to have a foundation
671
00:41:43.059 --> 00:41:45.900
in your meditation practice. By the way, that tracks with
672
00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:47.969
my own experience that if I want to do something
673
00:41:48.150 --> 00:41:51.190
off the cushion in real life, It really helps if
674
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:54.769
I have a foundation on the cushion in meditation. So
675
00:41:54.869 --> 00:41:57.429
what would you describe we should do in our meditation
676
00:41:57.449 --> 00:42:00.570
practice that will allow us to, you know, ask ourselves
677
00:42:00.630 --> 00:42:02.530
the questions, you know, what do you need right now,
678
00:42:02.590 --> 00:42:03.269
et cetera, et cetera?
679
00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:07.940
How should we practice meditation so that we're more likely
680
00:42:08.019 --> 00:42:10.039
to ask ourselves these questions? Is that what you're asking?
681
00:42:10.059 --> 00:42:12.179
Thank you for putting my question more eloquently than I
682
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:13.320
put it. That's exactly right.
683
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:18.679
Well, we're gathering the thing together, you know, it's an
684
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:24.710
emergent process, right, Dan? Self-compassion really needs mindfulness. We really
685
00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:28.869
need to be present to our experience. If we're really
686
00:42:28.929 --> 00:42:31.909
exhausted and starting to get crabby, we really need to
687
00:42:31.989 --> 00:42:36.730
be able to say, gosh, I'm really exhausted and I'm
688
00:42:36.769 --> 00:42:42.239
starting to get crabby, rather than just automatically and without
689
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:45.780
awareness pushing through and becoming more exhausted and more crabby
690
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:50.150
and tormenting our families and so forth. So that capacity
691
00:42:50.309 --> 00:42:53.829
to step back and to see what we're doing in
692
00:42:53.849 --> 00:42:59.360
the present moment is an essential first step toward compassion.
693
00:42:59.500 --> 00:43:03.639
That's basically, it creates the space to be able to
694
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.760
make a choice, such as asking ourselves, what do I need?
695
00:43:08.860 --> 00:43:11.719
Or how would I treat a friend? Or any of
696
00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:15.940
infinite ways that we can actually be kind to ourselves.
697
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:19.360
What do we need for meditation? I think, frankly, just
698
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:22.889
the capacity to meditate. That is to say, no matter
699
00:43:22.949 --> 00:43:24.989
what kind of meditation we do, as long as it
700
00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:31.079
is an opportunity to stop and to self-observe, then we're
701
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.800
more likely in daily life to do the same thing
702
00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:36.780
and then have room for a compassionate response.
703
00:43:37.909 --> 00:43:40.130
Okay, so from what I'm hearing there, though, what you're
704
00:43:40.150 --> 00:43:43.610
describing is sort of basic garden variety mindfulness meditation. Would
705
00:43:43.630 --> 00:43:46.409
you also recommend we layer on top a kind of
706
00:43:46.809 --> 00:43:50.989
practice that goes directly at self-compassion where we're repeating these
707
00:43:51.150 --> 00:43:52.769
loving-kindness phrases to ourselves?
708
00:43:55.579 --> 00:43:59.179
Yeah, so there are... What you're saying is really important,
709
00:43:59.260 --> 00:44:02.739
and that is that not only are we developing awareness,
710
00:44:03.099 --> 00:44:08.960
moment-to-moment awareness, but we're also intentionally... warming up the conversation.
711
00:44:09.219 --> 00:44:14.199
In other words, warmth. What's unique about self-compassion practice as
712
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:17.070
a complement to mindfulness is two things. One is that
713
00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:21.250
there's this quality of warmth, intentional warmth. Rather than just
714
00:44:21.289 --> 00:44:26.369
making space, we're warming things up. And also, we're directing
715
00:44:26.429 --> 00:44:29.570
some of that warmth at ourselves, the sense of self,
716
00:44:29.670 --> 00:44:34.840
the me. So in meditation, if we can In my
717
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.199
own personal meditation, this usually happens after like 20 minutes.
718
00:44:39.619 --> 00:44:42.610
Like usually I just do straight on breath meditation for
719
00:44:42.610 --> 00:44:46.150
20 minutes in the morning. And at that time, I
720
00:44:46.230 --> 00:44:52.610
start to feel, get more conscious about the uneasiness and
721
00:44:52.630 --> 00:44:55.050
the edginess that might be in my life at that time.
722
00:44:55.670 --> 00:45:02.469
And then loving kindness makes so much sense. In other words, like, oh, honey,
723
00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:06.679
I see you. And then we can start to be
724
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.409
kind to ourselves in ways that we would be kind
725
00:45:09.449 --> 00:45:13.070
to another person, such as, what do I need now?
726
00:45:13.130 --> 00:45:16.829
So for example, I practice loving kindness meditation. I say
727
00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:20.070
certain phrases to myself, usually only after 20 minutes when
728
00:45:20.110 --> 00:45:25.449
it actually means something. It's not sugarcoating. It's a healthy
729
00:45:25.489 --> 00:45:29.349
and intelligent response to distress, which I usually find after
730
00:45:29.349 --> 00:45:33.110
20 minutes in the morning. So to layer on at
731
00:45:33.170 --> 00:45:37.840
the right time, natural warmth in a way that comes
732
00:45:38.469 --> 00:45:43.190
most easily. So for some people it's an image, for
733
00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:46.389
some people it's warming up the breath, for some people
734
00:45:46.449 --> 00:45:51.699
it's language, for other people it's touch. There are infinite
735
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.900
ways that we can warm up our awareness, but that
736
00:45:54.980 --> 00:46:00.579
also then, you might say, primes us in daily life,
737
00:46:01.059 --> 00:46:04.199
not only to be aware of what's happening in our lives,
738
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.699
but also to be kind to ourselves. In other words,
739
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:14.659
it creates, before we start the day, an inclination towards self-kindness.
740
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:18.800
I'm going to make some recommendations, and you, as the
741
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.739
person who knows infinitely more than I do, can correct
742
00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:25.550
me if you feel like anything I've said is off.
743
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:31.469
My recommendation is that everybody's different, and your meditation practice
744
00:46:31.489 --> 00:46:35.199
is you, the listener, your meditation practice may be different
745
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:37.940
from mine and your meditation practice in six months may
746
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:41.440
be different than yours is right now. And so I
747
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:45.050
would recommend experimenting. It may be that you meditate for
748
00:46:45.070 --> 00:46:48.349
a while and then at a certain time in your sitting,
749
00:46:48.369 --> 00:46:52.789
it feels right to do some self-compassion. I could see
750
00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:59.510
an argument for reversing it because a practice of envisioning
751
00:46:59.530 --> 00:47:02.840
yourself maybe as a kid and then sending phrases like
752
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:05.260
may be happy, may be safe, may be healthy, may
753
00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.960
live with ease. That is classically a sort of concentration practice.
754
00:47:09.019 --> 00:47:12.340
And it can five minutes of that before the rest
755
00:47:12.380 --> 00:47:16.260
of your meditation can settle the mind as you go
756
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.869
into sort of a more breath awareness. I could also
757
00:47:19.949 --> 00:47:21.989
see a world where if this is something you're really
758
00:47:22.030 --> 00:47:24.059
struggling with, which, by the way, would put you in
759
00:47:24.099 --> 00:47:25.639
very good company, because I think most of us are
760
00:47:25.659 --> 00:47:29.340
struggling with, you might actually take a whole chunk of time,
761
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.090
a year. I actually took two years recently where all
762
00:47:32.139 --> 00:47:35.130
I was doing was loving kindness, not just directed at myself,
763
00:47:35.190 --> 00:47:38.610
but sort of in a panoramic way. So I think
764
00:47:38.650 --> 00:47:40.610
there are a bunch of ways to attack this in
765
00:47:40.630 --> 00:47:41.690
your meditation practice.
766
00:47:41.989 --> 00:47:42.949
Chris, does that make sense to you?
767
00:47:43.670 --> 00:47:47.639
Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, in the larger meditation world,
768
00:47:47.699 --> 00:47:51.699
the One of the main questions is, okay, should people
769
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:56.489
first learn self-compassion or should they first learn mindfulness? And
770
00:47:56.610 --> 00:48:01.969
the answer seems to be, depends, you know? So there
771
00:48:02.010 --> 00:48:05.769
are quite a few people who learn mindfulness and they
772
00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:08.969
are so self-critical that they say, I can't do this.
773
00:48:08.989 --> 00:48:11.690
I don't know how to meditate. I should quit. And
774
00:48:11.730 --> 00:48:15.610
they do quit because they first need to learn self-compassion.
775
00:48:15.670 --> 00:48:18.730
They need to learn to be merciful with themselves when
776
00:48:18.750 --> 00:48:21.630
they practice and not consider the thing a test of your,
777
00:48:21.730 --> 00:48:25.650
you know, value as a human being. So some people
778
00:48:25.710 --> 00:48:28.849
need to learn self-compassion first. Some people need to learn
779
00:48:28.889 --> 00:48:34.159
mindfulness first. But also, as you said quite eloquently before,
780
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.139
not only is each person different, but we are different
781
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.280
from month to month, year to year. And so to
782
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:43.690
really ask ourselves what makes sense, what do I need?
783
00:48:44.949 --> 00:48:50.110
But to know that there are options, in other words,
784
00:48:51.289 --> 00:48:54.050
making space for our experience and being aware of our
785
00:48:54.090 --> 00:48:57.349
experience is not the only way to meditate. We can also,
786
00:48:58.650 --> 00:49:02.250
there are many, many different forms of meditation, but warming
787
00:49:02.309 --> 00:49:05.179
up our awareness and including ourselves in the circle of
788
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:10.179
our awareness is a legitimate way to practice with lots
789
00:49:10.219 --> 00:49:12.360
of research behind it. And it's been also going on
790
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:14.679
for thousands of years. Don't be shy.
791
00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:16.650
Agreed.
792
00:49:17.550 --> 00:49:23.219
Having said that, though, let me bring in some caveats.
793
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:27.539
These are not designed to make you shy. I don't
794
00:49:27.579 --> 00:49:29.260
think anybody should be shy about doing this. I think
795
00:49:29.300 --> 00:49:32.059
we should all go for it. But, and I'm now
796
00:49:32.219 --> 00:49:35.719
kind of quoting you here, and I'm paraphrasing something I
797
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.679
read from you, which is that this is not necessarily
798
00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:45.349
always going to be super pleasant because when we soften
799
00:49:45.369 --> 00:49:49.789
around some of the things that are causing us pain,
800
00:49:49.809 --> 00:49:56.030
we're basically going to experience that pain, the pain that
801
00:49:56.110 --> 00:49:58.610
allowed us to put up the armor in the first place.
802
00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:01.659
So can you give some advice to people who might
803
00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:03.599
find themselves experiencing that?
804
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:09.039
Yeah. So when people practice mindfulness meditation, just making space
805
00:50:09.099 --> 00:50:14.179
for their experience, they inevitably experience things they didn't know
806
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:18.530
about and never felt before or not consciously, and often
807
00:50:18.650 --> 00:50:21.349
things they don't want to know about and don't want
808
00:50:21.369 --> 00:50:25.989
to feel. So this happens just when we direct our
809
00:50:26.030 --> 00:50:28.909
gaze inward and make a little time and space for it.
810
00:50:29.010 --> 00:50:33.889
But With loving-kindness meditation and compassion meditation, it happens more.
811
00:50:35.329 --> 00:50:40.260
And it happens more because the practice of compassion and
812
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:49.300
warmth in relationship to ourselves evokes our personal relationship history.
813
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:53.440
It drops us into the relational matrix of our lives.
814
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.599
And in the many interactions that we've had with people,
815
00:50:58.889 --> 00:51:03.760
all of us, have been disappointed, have been hurt. All
816
00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:08.880
of us have loved people fiercely who could not love
817
00:51:08.980 --> 00:51:12.480
us back, and it has hurt. It may have been
818
00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:16.340
an original caregiver or a sibling or anybody after that.
819
00:51:17.179 --> 00:51:20.389
So all of us have, you might say, relational wounds.
820
00:51:21.030 --> 00:51:24.489
So the amazing thing about loving-kindness practice and compassion practice
821
00:51:24.550 --> 00:51:28.250
is not only does it expose those wounds, but it's
822
00:51:28.329 --> 00:51:32.570
also an opportunity to heal those wounds. So there's a
823
00:51:32.630 --> 00:51:38.280
saying that love reveals everything unlike itself. If I say
824
00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:41.900
to myself, ah, may I accept myself just as I am,
825
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.780
very quickly, particularly in the beginning of practice, I will notice, hmm,
826
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:51.809
these are all the unacceptable things about me, and I've
827
00:51:51.869 --> 00:51:54.610
also been treated in a way that I was unacceptable.
828
00:51:55.340 --> 00:51:57.429
when I was this age and when I was that age.
829
00:51:57.469 --> 00:52:02.610
So we start to basically remember uncomfortable things. And when
830
00:52:02.670 --> 00:52:08.800
this happens, practitioners usually, if they haven't heard this conversation before,
831
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:11.739
the one we're having right now, they think, oh, I'm
832
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:15.840
not doing it right. I'm practicing this because I want
833
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:18.460
to feel good and I want to let the love
834
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:20.760
shine and so forth. And how come I'm getting really
835
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:24.840
bummed out? How come I'm feeling shame and sadness and despair? Now,
836
00:52:24.860 --> 00:52:26.639
I don't mean to freak people out who are on
837
00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:30.199
this call, but Sharon Salzberg was very clear about this
838
00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:35.239
a long time ago. Loving-kindness meditation is not about good feelings.
839
00:52:35.619 --> 00:52:40.119
It's about goodwill. It's the intention to be kind to
840
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:43.429
ourselves that is really what it's about. We are cultivating
841
00:52:43.590 --> 00:52:46.269
over and over again the intention. And when we do that,
842
00:52:48.010 --> 00:52:53.190
uncomfortable feelings will definitely arise, but it is a blessing.
843
00:52:54.019 --> 00:52:57.260
Because when they arise, this is not new stuff. This
844
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:00.019
is old stuff. Because we've just stirred up the pot.
845
00:53:00.619 --> 00:53:02.059
All the muck at the bottom of the pot is
846
00:53:02.099 --> 00:53:05.099
coming up. It's getting stirred up, but it's also leaving us.
847
00:53:05.739 --> 00:53:09.840
It's leaving us. And the amazing thing is that our
848
00:53:09.980 --> 00:53:15.519
minds know, for most of us, our minds know when
849
00:53:15.579 --> 00:53:18.409
we have the capacity and when it is safe enough
850
00:53:18.989 --> 00:53:24.489
to actually bring this stuff up and let it be transformed.
851
00:53:25.369 --> 00:53:31.070
And when we bring consciously kindness into our experience, when
852
00:53:31.110 --> 00:53:34.610
we build that muscle of kindness in our experience, then
853
00:53:34.650 --> 00:53:38.119
the mind starts to reveal its secrets because it knows
854
00:53:38.179 --> 00:53:40.840
that now is the chance that I can be healed.
855
00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:44.159
I have the capacity to see this. I have the
856
00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:47.739
capacity to hold this. I have the capacity to heal this.
857
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:52.980
And ultimately, that's what we do. If you have, for example,
858
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:55.510
a memory of being shamed when you were six years
859
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:59.150
old or something, when that's coming up, you can just
860
00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:05.489
be super kind to yourself now as an adult because
861
00:54:05.570 --> 00:54:10.409
this experience has been with you for so long. And
862
00:54:10.989 --> 00:54:14.219
in that kindness toward yourself and then even kindness toward
863
00:54:14.260 --> 00:54:17.880
that six-year-old, And that's also a beautiful part of practice.
864
00:54:17.940 --> 00:54:20.300
In other words, to find those parts of yourself that
865
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:26.920
have been hurt. Kindness toward yourself, kindness toward the child
866
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:31.429
that was hurt. We are actually in that moment transforming
867
00:54:31.489 --> 00:54:36.369
the experience and reparenting ourselves. So the remarkable thing about
868
00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:39.449
this is that these negative emotions that come up are
869
00:54:39.650 --> 00:54:45.429
actually opportunities for reparenting. And in the clinical language, All
870
00:54:45.449 --> 00:54:49.010
of this, in a nutshell, is about how loving-kindness practice
871
00:54:49.889 --> 00:54:57.449
activates our attachment styles, our relational patterns. It reveals the wounds,
872
00:54:57.889 --> 00:55:01.010
and then it gives us an opportunity to develop what
873
00:55:01.050 --> 00:55:05.849
we call secure attachment. We might have had insecure attachment
874
00:55:06.030 --> 00:55:09.719
or avoidant attachment, but we can develop the capacity for
875
00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:15.119
inner security, for a secure base within. And in my view,
876
00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:18.260
and I say this also as a therapist, this is
877
00:55:18.550 --> 00:55:22.710
the most profound opportunity that we have with this kind
878
00:55:22.769 --> 00:55:27.750
of compassion and self-compassion meditation. It's basically to develop what's
879
00:55:27.789 --> 00:55:31.429
called earned attachment or to reparent ourselves.
880
00:55:32.030 --> 00:55:33.530
I've seen a lot of this in my own practice.
881
00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:33.750
And I.
882
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:38.980
Did once a loving kindness meta meditation retreat with a
883
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.929
great teacher by the name of Spring Washam. And she
884
00:55:42.030 --> 00:55:45.230
uses a kind of grandiose term, but it really jibes
885
00:55:45.269 --> 00:55:47.250
with everything you just said, which is this is a
886
00:55:47.289 --> 00:55:50.530
kind of a purification practice that you do this sort
887
00:55:50.550 --> 00:55:55.579
of touchy, seemingly touchy feely. thing of repeating these phrases,
888
00:55:55.739 --> 00:55:59.000
but it's actually, it's kind of a baller move because
889
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:01.949
when you do it, lots of difficult stuff will come
890
00:56:02.010 --> 00:56:04.190
up because it's the mind knows it's safe for that
891
00:56:04.210 --> 00:56:06.409
stuff to come up and you can then direct the
892
00:56:06.429 --> 00:56:09.929
kindness towards the difficulty. But in that way, you kind
893
00:56:09.969 --> 00:56:12.929
of are purifying the mind of, as you said, sort
894
00:56:12.969 --> 00:56:15.550
of just taking the trash out in the mind. And
895
00:56:15.590 --> 00:56:18.170
that can be really helpful. We do have some voicemails
896
00:56:18.210 --> 00:56:19.110
I want to get to, but let me ask you
897
00:56:19.130 --> 00:56:21.869
just one last question before we do that. You mentioned
898
00:56:22.369 --> 00:56:26.210
way back at the beginning of this interview that you
899
00:56:26.309 --> 00:56:28.780
saw as you got up on stage to deliver that
900
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:33.159
speech at Harvard Medical School that all of the compassion
901
00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:36.889
you'd been sending to yourself on the cushion, it actually
902
00:56:36.969 --> 00:56:40.429
seemingly inexorably led to compassion for other people because you
903
00:56:40.530 --> 00:56:41.489
loved the audience.
904
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:43.300
And I'm just wondering, is there.
905
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:48.960
Any science that backs that notion up that self-compassion can
906
00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:51.360
lead to more other compassion?
907
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:58.489
Over and over and over. Whenever there's a self-compassion training,
908
00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:03.210
if self-compassion and compassion for others are both measured, both
909
00:57:03.250 --> 00:57:07.630
go up together. What is interesting is that if a
910
00:57:07.650 --> 00:57:12.230
person is by nature, in other words, has trait self-compassion,
911
00:57:13.710 --> 00:57:20.440
they are not necessarily more compassionate toward others. But when
912
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:25.460
we learn self-compassion across the board, people become more compassionate
913
00:57:25.500 --> 00:57:26.780
toward others in the research.
914
00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:30.699
Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this, and I stole
915
00:57:30.739 --> 00:57:33.940
this idea from Joseph Goldstein, a great meditation teacher, but
916
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:35.719
I've talked about it a lot on the show, the
917
00:57:35.780 --> 00:57:39.260
virtuous cycle that I think can get unlocked here with
918
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:43.280
self-compassion because, you know, as your inner weather improves, you
919
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:46.880
inexorably have more room to see that other people are
920
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:50.719
suffering and you can be cooler to them. And as
921
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:53.940
your relationships improve, your inner weather gets better and then
922
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:56.079
your relationships improve and then upward we go.
923
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:57.159
It's not perfect.
924
00:57:57.300 --> 00:58:01.260
It's not like, you know, a permanent efflorescence of positivity
925
00:58:01.300 --> 00:58:03.530
for the rest of your life. It's just nothing works
926
00:58:03.570 --> 00:58:07.110
that way. But I do find that it can be
927
00:58:07.150 --> 00:58:07.650
very helpful.
928
00:58:08.380 --> 00:58:13.880
The research also shows us that by practicing compassion for others,
929
00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:20.250
we increase in self-compassion. So that's the virtuous cycle you're
930
00:58:20.269 --> 00:58:23.750
talking about. In other words, I practice self-compassion. It leads
931
00:58:23.769 --> 00:58:26.489
to compassion for others. I practice compassion for others. It
932
00:58:26.550 --> 00:58:27.650
leads to self-compassion.
933
00:58:28.469 --> 00:58:29.590
Because it's all one thing.
934
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.599
I mean, love, and again, I'm not talking love in
935
00:58:32.619 --> 00:58:35.559
the romantic Hollywood sense or Bon Jovi songs.
936
00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:36.559
I mean.
937
00:58:37.489 --> 00:58:41.070
sort of anything north of neutrality, the human capacity to care,
938
00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:45.780
it's omnidirectional. So, I mean, I think once you train
939
00:58:45.860 --> 00:58:49.000
one aspect of it, it just, it all floats right.
940
00:58:49.659 --> 00:58:52.860
It's a state of mind and it's also a physiology,
941
00:58:52.900 --> 00:58:56.400
you know? So it takes, everything gets absorbed in it,
942
00:58:56.659 --> 00:58:59.829
you know? When we're angry, we're angry at ourselves, we're
943
00:58:59.869 --> 00:59:05.010
angry at others. When we're compassionate, we're usually compassionate with ourselves,
944
00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:09.079
compassionate with others. It's a state. And it can become
945
00:59:09.099 --> 00:59:09.969
a trait through practice.
946
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:13.519
So let's get to these voicemails. People sent in questions
947
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:15.599
via voicemail for you. So here's the first one. It's
948
00:59:15.619 --> 00:59:17.480
from a listener named Bob.
949
00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:20.940
Hi, Dan and the 10% Happier crew. My name is
950
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.119
Bob and I teach at a university up here in
951
00:59:23.179 --> 00:59:26.099
North Dakota. I just listened to your discussion with Lori
952
00:59:26.139 --> 00:59:28.739
Santos and both of you discussed the value of gratitude.
953
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:32.500
I've been attempting to start a daily gratitude practice, but
954
00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:34.320
I find that whenever I come up with something to
955
00:59:34.380 --> 00:59:37.179
be grateful for, my mind always flips it right away
956
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:39.820
and I end up feeling guilt or shame. For instance,
957
00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:41.889
I noted that I was grateful for being able to
958
00:59:41.929 --> 00:59:44.389
see a therapist, and I immediately felt shame because my
959
00:59:44.429 --> 00:59:46.949
mind flipped to others out there who cannot find or
960
00:59:46.989 --> 00:59:49.710
afford a therapist, and that I wasn't fully taking advantage
961
00:59:49.750 --> 00:59:53.650
of my therapy or getting better more quickly. Likewise, I
962
00:59:53.849 --> 00:59:56.170
noted gratitude for having students who are willing to engage
963
00:59:56.190 --> 00:59:58.820
with me in the course material, And I immediately felt
964
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:00.900
shame because my mind flipped to the students who aren't
965
01:00:00.940 --> 01:00:02.860
engaged with the material and not doing well in the
966
01:00:02.900 --> 01:00:05.679
class and feeling like a bad educator and that I'm
967
01:00:05.699 --> 01:00:08.559
not doing enough for them. I was wondering if there
968
01:00:08.579 --> 01:00:11.860
are any mindfulness strategies that can help me to address
969
01:00:12.300 --> 01:00:16.590
this immediate transformation of my gratitude into guilt or shame.
970
01:00:17.170 --> 01:00:19.550
Thank you very much, and I appreciate all that you do. Bye-bye.
971
01:00:20.610 --> 01:00:21.739
Yeah, well, thank you, Bob.
972
01:00:22.050 --> 01:00:24.130
And I'm grateful that I don't have to answer that
973
01:00:24.170 --> 01:00:27.250
question because I have somebody who actually knows what he's
974
01:00:27.289 --> 01:00:28.710
talking about here to answer that question.
975
01:00:29.809 --> 01:00:34.969
We're hoping. For your sake and mine, right? Yeah, no,
976
01:00:35.030 --> 01:00:41.110
I appreciate Bob's observation. In fact, it's quite a mindful
977
01:00:41.170 --> 01:00:44.230
thing just to be able to notice that. It's also
978
01:00:44.610 --> 01:00:48.449
really common. In other words, the way we know anything
979
01:00:48.469 --> 01:00:54.139
is perhaps by contrast. If I say, oh, this ceiling
980
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:56.539
is high, then I know what low ceilings are like.
981
01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:58.400
When I say it's a bright day, I know a
982
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.400
cloudy day and so forth. So the only way we
983
01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:05.320
know anything is by contrast. So when I start to say, well,
984
01:01:05.380 --> 01:01:10.230
I'm really grateful for this, then often the opposite will
985
01:01:10.829 --> 01:01:13.030
start to come up in my mind, like, well, you
986
01:01:13.070 --> 01:01:17.369
should be ashamed. So this is really quite natural. It's
987
01:01:17.409 --> 01:01:20.420
just how the mind works. I don't blame you, Bob,
988
01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:24.360
for feeling a measure of distress about it, wishing that
989
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:29.039
it were not so. And that's where self-compassion comes in.
990
01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:35.780
So self-compassion has really three aspects to it, according to
991
01:01:35.820 --> 01:01:39.909
Kristen Neff. One is mindfulness, the other is common humanity,
992
01:01:39.949 --> 01:01:42.789
and the third is self-kindness. So in this case, Bob,
993
01:01:43.690 --> 01:01:47.989
you've already got the mindfulness piece down. You noticed that
994
01:01:48.699 --> 01:01:52.489
When you are grateful, practicing gratitude, you can feel some shame.
995
01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:55.329
So you're aware of this. And not only that, you're
996
01:01:55.349 --> 01:01:58.969
also aware of it in a kind of a nonjudgmental
997
01:01:58.989 --> 01:02:01.949
way insofar as that you were able to make the
998
01:02:01.989 --> 01:02:05.030
call and share this and make it also a benefit
999
01:02:05.050 --> 01:02:08.030
to others. So you totally have the mindfulness piece down.
1000
01:02:08.849 --> 01:02:11.309
Then there's the common humanity, and that is to actually
1001
01:02:11.369 --> 01:02:14.750
understand that what it is that you're going through is
1002
01:02:14.769 --> 01:02:17.800
a part of the human experience. If you were to
1003
01:02:17.860 --> 01:02:23.019
do a workshop on gratitude, your participants would be just
1004
01:02:23.059 --> 01:02:27.059
so grateful to you because you will make sense of
1005
01:02:27.139 --> 01:02:31.219
their experience, which is that all kinds of other emotions
1006
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:34.989
will arise for you. And then there's kindness. So then
1007
01:02:35.030 --> 01:02:42.309
the question, Bob, would be, huh, how can you practice
1008
01:02:42.349 --> 01:02:47.929
gratitude or while you're practicing gratitude if shame arises, how
1009
01:02:48.289 --> 01:02:50.610
do you want to hold yourself and how do you
1010
01:02:50.650 --> 01:02:51.969
want to hold the shame?
1011
01:02:51.989 --> 01:02:53.829
Okay?
1012
01:02:54.429 --> 01:02:59.500
And so what I would suggest is that you not
1013
01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:03.360
get too caught up in thinking about this, worrying about
1014
01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:07.599
it too much, and do something kind of radical. And
1015
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:12.889
that is Find where in your body shame is located.
1016
01:03:14.230 --> 01:03:16.969
Maybe it's in the throat or the chest or the belly.
1017
01:03:18.150 --> 01:03:22.250
And see if you can just be super kind to
1018
01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:25.889
that part of your body that is holding the emotion.
1019
01:03:26.369 --> 01:03:29.449
And that has probably been holding that emotion for a
1020
01:03:29.530 --> 01:03:33.239
really long time. And, you know, you can rub that
1021
01:03:33.300 --> 01:03:35.889
part of your body. You can talk to that part
1022
01:03:35.909 --> 01:03:39.449
of your body. You can even, Bob, listen to that
1023
01:03:39.489 --> 01:03:41.650
part of your body. You can say, you know, you can,
1024
01:03:41.929 --> 01:03:43.949
as if that part of your body was a person,
1025
01:03:44.750 --> 01:03:48.389
what would that part want you to know? And what
1026
01:03:48.409 --> 01:03:52.449
would you like to say to, as it were, that
1027
01:03:52.510 --> 01:03:55.409
part of your body who's holding the emotion or, you know,
1028
01:03:55.429 --> 01:03:58.860
that part that's bearing what we'd call the burden of shame?
1029
01:03:59.769 --> 01:04:02.119
So you don't want to get too caught up in
1030
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:07.599
your mind struggling with gratitude and then opposite reactions. I
1031
01:04:07.659 --> 01:04:10.800
would say you're aware of it. Notice that it's a
1032
01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:14.110
common thing, but drop it out of the bind, down
1033
01:04:14.170 --> 01:04:18.150
into the body, and begin to address that which the
1034
01:04:18.190 --> 01:04:22.789
gratitude practice has kicked up in a compassionate way. And
1035
01:04:22.809 --> 01:04:28.449
you will probably notice over time, that those contrary responses
1036
01:04:28.570 --> 01:04:31.670
start to diminish. You know, it's just like a fire.
1037
01:04:31.690 --> 01:04:34.829
You know, when we first start a fire, it's really smoky,
1038
01:04:34.909 --> 01:04:38.250
but then after a while it burns brightly. Clean burning,
1039
01:04:38.590 --> 01:04:43.690
as Dan would say. So it's particularly common in the
1040
01:04:43.730 --> 01:04:45.510
beginning as well of practice.
1041
01:04:46.409 --> 01:04:49.769
Just to say that this, I call this Kristen doesn't
1042
01:04:49.789 --> 01:04:51.630
know that I call it this, but I call this
1043
01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:54.789
the NEF three-step. She describes this as a practice you
1044
01:04:54.809 --> 01:04:58.320
can do both on and off the cushion. Something difficult
1045
01:04:58.360 --> 01:05:03.420
comes up, first step, mindfully notice it. Second step, get
1046
01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:06.320
some perspective by knowing that millions of other people probably
1047
01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:12.190
at this very nanosecond are suffering from something very similar, judgment, anger, fear, whatever.
1048
01:05:12.929 --> 01:05:16.469
Third step, Bring some kindness in. Put a hand on
1049
01:05:16.489 --> 01:05:18.809
the part of your body where you're feeling it. Say
1050
01:05:18.869 --> 01:05:21.750
some kind words to yourself, et cetera, et cetera. This
1051
01:05:22.110 --> 01:05:25.260
I've been practicing with in my own life is a
1052
01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:29.360
really good circuit breaker on the sort of habitual rumination
1053
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:32.019
or shame spirals that come up in my own mind.
1054
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:35.440
Let's do the second voicemail. This one's from Sarah.
1055
01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:35.900
Here we go.
1056
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:41.070
Hey, Dan. This is Sarah. First-time caller, long-time listener.
1057
01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:42.369
I am.
1058
01:05:43.539 --> 01:05:46.159
calling you on the road in rural Maine where I'm
1059
01:05:46.179 --> 01:05:52.190
a hospice chaplain. And self-love is so complicated and so difficult,
1060
01:05:53.070 --> 01:05:57.530
and I know kind of cognitively what I need to
1061
01:05:57.590 --> 01:05:59.849
do and why it is good for me, but as
1062
01:05:59.869 --> 01:06:04.360
a recovering perfectionist, I just can't seem to create that
1063
01:06:04.409 --> 01:06:08.539
new habit of self-love. I'm just super self-critical, even though
1064
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:12.469
I offer... a lot of love and compassion in my
1065
01:06:12.510 --> 01:06:18.929
day-to-day work for hospice patients. And, gosh, I just don't
1066
01:06:18.949 --> 01:06:20.869
know how to get around it. So I'm really, really
1067
01:06:20.929 --> 01:06:29.590
hopeful that this new challenge with you all will help me. And, yeah,
1068
01:06:29.610 --> 01:06:31.739
my biggest question is just how do I get this
1069
01:06:31.820 --> 01:06:34.719
to be at a point where it's not just in
1070
01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:38.420
my head but it's in my heart as well? Because
1071
01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:40.969
it's important for me, but it's also important I have
1072
01:06:41.050 --> 01:06:43.269
a two-year-old and I don't want him to have the
1073
01:06:43.309 --> 01:06:47.269
same self-critical habits as me growing up. So yeah, I'm
1074
01:06:47.289 --> 01:06:50.769
sure that's an easy fix. So look forward to the series.
1075
01:06:50.789 --> 01:06:51.670
Take care.
1076
01:06:52.429 --> 01:06:52.989
Thank you, Sarah.
1077
01:06:53.030 --> 01:06:55.619
I have a special affection for people who work in hospice.
1078
01:06:56.179 --> 01:06:58.880
And I also think I could hear your turn signal
1079
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:01.199
on there. So I'm glad you're driving responsibly. It's a
1080
01:07:01.219 --> 01:07:05.199
form of self-care. But this actually, I'm glad Sarah asked
1081
01:07:05.219 --> 01:07:06.840
this question because it was something that came up in
1082
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:09.760
my mind quickly before and I didn't follow the thread.
1083
01:07:10.340 --> 01:07:13.599
You had said earlier, Chris, that people who train in
1084
01:07:13.900 --> 01:07:17.409
one kind of compassion get better at others. You know,
1085
01:07:17.469 --> 01:07:19.809
so you might train in other compassion and then you
1086
01:07:19.829 --> 01:07:22.329
get better at self-compassion. But it's quite common, I think,
1087
01:07:22.630 --> 01:07:26.380
for people to have lives of service. I put my
1088
01:07:26.409 --> 01:07:29.579
wife in this category. She's a physician, extremely compassionate, but
1089
01:07:29.619 --> 01:07:33.699
also extremely hard on herself. And so it sounds like
1090
01:07:33.820 --> 01:07:35.260
Sarah has fallen into this.
1091
01:07:36.619 --> 01:07:40.730
As you said, this is very common, and I'm a psychotherapist,
1092
01:07:40.849 --> 01:07:44.530
and this is also super common among therapists, that we're
1093
01:07:44.989 --> 01:07:49.309
just utterly oriented toward working for others, and we'll drive
1094
01:07:49.369 --> 01:07:53.949
ourselves into the ground trying to do our best. So
1095
01:07:54.849 --> 01:07:59.199
this is a familiar scenario. What Sarah was talking about
1096
01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:05.480
was really the flip side of self-kindness, which is self-criticism.
1097
01:08:05.579 --> 01:08:09.079
And One thing's for sure, we were talking before about
1098
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:14.960
this phenomenon of backdraft or the way something opposite comes up.
1099
01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:18.159
So when we start being kind to ourselves, we actually
1100
01:08:18.220 --> 01:08:22.949
become more vividly aware of all the criticism going on
1101
01:08:22.989 --> 01:08:27.649
inside of us. And again, this can seem pretty horrifying,
1102
01:08:28.069 --> 01:08:35.010
but it's actually quite wonderful that we can actually see it. Like,
1103
01:08:35.229 --> 01:08:39.739
oh my goodness, I didn't realize how self-critical I am.
1104
01:08:39.859 --> 01:08:42.520
And frankly, the more self-kindness you give to yourself, the
1105
01:08:42.579 --> 01:08:46.899
more you'll notice you're self-critical. And this experience comes mostly
1106
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:50.699
in the beginning of practice. You know, once we basically
1107
01:08:50.979 --> 01:08:53.229
open Pandora's box, we can see everything in it. And
1108
01:08:53.250 --> 01:08:54.890
it's like, oh my God, I'll never be able to
1109
01:08:54.930 --> 01:08:58.909
do this. I'll never be a good self-love, self-kindness, self-compassion person.
1110
01:08:59.350 --> 01:09:01.779
So what you need to know is this is actually
1111
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:06.819
a pretty common experience, not only for caregivers, but for
1112
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:11.840
anybody that's starting to cultivate self-kindness, we discover how self-critical
1113
01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:16.909
we are. So what's really important is, again, this quality
1114
01:09:16.949 --> 01:09:22.239
of patience, you know, There's a beautiful story from the
1115
01:09:22.420 --> 01:09:28.220
Torah in which a rabbi was talking to his student
1116
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.380
about words in the Torah, and the student said, Rabbi,
1117
01:09:32.420 --> 01:09:35.000
why is it that Torah says to place the holy
1118
01:09:35.060 --> 01:09:39.210
words on our hearts? Why doesn't Torah tell us to
1119
01:09:39.270 --> 01:09:45.270
place the holy words in our hearts? And the rabbi responded,
1120
01:09:45.329 --> 01:09:49.270
because as we are, our hearts are a little closed.
1121
01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:55.539
from suffering. And so we cannot place the holy words
1122
01:09:56.060 --> 01:10:00.359
in our hearts. So we place them on our hearts
1123
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:06.789
until one day our hearts break open and the words
1124
01:10:07.069 --> 01:10:11.970
fall in. The words fall in. So Sarah is doing
1125
01:10:12.029 --> 01:10:17.449
the right thing. Sarah is saturating herself with kindness. She's
1126
01:10:17.510 --> 01:10:24.300
discovering critical voices. But she's probably keeping at it. She's
1127
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:31.250
cultivating this precious intention, this goodwill. And there will definitely
1128
01:10:31.329 --> 01:10:35.189
come a time when she is least expecting it. When
1129
01:10:35.449 --> 01:10:40.380
something happens and she notices that she's so tender with herself,
1130
01:10:40.840 --> 01:10:45.119
and then she will say, oh, I would never have
1131
01:10:45.180 --> 01:10:48.659
responded like this a year ago. So we have to
1132
01:10:48.699 --> 01:10:53.930
have patience. It's all a good thing, what Sarah is describing.
1133
01:10:56.659 --> 01:10:58.380
It just doesn't feel good sometimes.
1134
01:10:59.439 --> 01:10:59.920
Well said.
1135
01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.420
Speaking of good things, you're doing a great thing in
1136
01:11:03.460 --> 01:11:07.039
your career, and I'm grateful for it. And you've done
1137
01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:09.460
a great job in this interview, and I appreciate you
1138
01:11:09.859 --> 01:11:10.159
doing it.
1139
01:11:10.180 --> 01:11:10.520
Thank you.
1140
01:11:11.479 --> 01:11:16.149
Thanks. I really appreciated the conversation. I liked stretching into
1141
01:11:16.170 --> 01:11:21.880
this conversation with you, Dan. And also, I do, if
1142
01:11:21.979 --> 01:11:25.300
I may say, really appreciate your authenticity and how you
1143
01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:29.000
are openly sharing your own journey with everybody else. That's
1144
01:11:29.039 --> 01:11:30.140
a huge generosity.
1145
01:11:31.180 --> 01:11:35.000
Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Big thanks to Chris.
1146
01:11:35.039 --> 01:11:35.779
I really enjoyed that.
1147
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:39.310
As you know, Friday marks the start of 2021. And
1148
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:42.130
this Friday, we've got a super special bonus. We're going
1149
01:11:42.149 --> 01:11:44.930
to be dropping a brand new episode, a conversation with
1150
01:11:45.010 --> 01:11:48.979
Karamo from Queer Eye. We'll be diving into his complex
1151
01:11:49.220 --> 01:11:52.840
and inspiring life and learning about how he discovered self-compassion
1152
01:11:52.899 --> 01:11:56.859
and how he operationalizes it every day. Karamo will also
1153
01:11:56.899 --> 01:11:58.939
be taking part in the New Year's Meditation Challenge on
1154
01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:00.199
the app, which.
1155
01:12:00.100 --> 01:12:02.270
We are incredibly grateful for and excited about.
1156
01:12:02.869 --> 01:12:05.149
So to help you apply everything we learned from Chris
1157
01:12:05.189 --> 01:12:08.489
Germer today and to learn from Karamo and our expert
1158
01:12:08.529 --> 01:12:11.689
meditation teachers, you can join our free 21-day meditation challenge
1159
01:12:12.180 --> 01:12:15.039
by downloading the 10% Happier app wherever you get your
1160
01:12:15.140 --> 01:12:18.649
apps or at 10%.com, all one word spelled out. If
1161
01:12:18.689 --> 01:12:21.590
you already have the app, as I've been saying, just
1162
01:12:21.810 --> 01:12:24.989
open it up and join the challenge. Big hearty thank
1163
01:12:25.010 --> 01:12:27.329
you to the folks who put the show together. Samuel
1164
01:12:27.369 --> 01:12:29.989
Johns is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our producer.
1165
01:12:30.369 --> 01:12:33.220
Jules Dodson is our associate producer. Our sound designer is
1166
01:12:33.260 --> 01:12:37.619
Matt Boynton from Ultraviolet Audio. Maria Wirtel is our production coordinator.
1167
01:12:37.909 --> 01:12:40.319
We get a ton of incredibly useful input from our
1168
01:12:40.359 --> 01:12:43.819
TPH colleagues, such as Jen Point, Nate Tobey, Ben Rubin,
1169
01:12:43.859 --> 01:12:46.460
and Liz Levin. And of course, a big salute to
1170
01:12:46.500 --> 01:12:50.350
my ABC News comrades, Ryan Kessler and Josh Kohan. Additional
1171
01:12:50.369 --> 01:12:53.029
thanks to everybody at the 10% Happier app, who also
1172
01:12:53.289 --> 01:12:55.590
have been working incredibly hard to make this podcast series
1173
01:12:55.810 --> 01:12:58.760
and the challenge a reality. Just a few names here,
1174
01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:03.649
Maggie Moran, Alison Bryant, Julia Wu, Kimberly Mikish. Nico Johnson,
1175
01:13:03.770 --> 01:13:08.390
Amy Breckenridge, Jessica Goldberg, Jade Weston, Matthew Hepburn, Joshua Berkowitz,
1176
01:13:08.470 --> 01:13:13.529
Crystal Isaac, Connor Donahue, Liz Woodwell, Clea Stagnetti, Derek Haswell,
1177
01:13:13.609 --> 01:13:18.880
Eva Breitenbach, Ray Hausman, Yong Oh, Trasa Gress, and Liz Farmer.
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Big thanks to all those folks. And thanks again for listening.
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We'll see you soon.