How to Continuously Learn and Grow in Marketing Ops with Raja Walia

WEBVTT
00:00:26.289 --> 00:00:27.010
Hello everyone.
00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:32.170
Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, powered by the MO Pros.
00:00:32.620 --> 00:00:36.649
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann, today joined by Naomi Liu.
00:00:36.670 --> 00:00:40.329
Naomi, I think this is one of the few times you just, just you and me,
00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:41.500
so I know.
00:00:41.505 --> 00:00:43.000
Just the, just the two of us.
00:00:43.269 --> 00:00:43.990
Just the two.
00:00:44.170 --> 00:00:44.469
Okay.
00:00:45.100 --> 00:00:45.519
I don't, I don't think we
00:00:45.519 --> 00:00:46.299
need me singing.
00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:48.400
Can't harmonize with you.
00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.159
No, wouldn't, I'm not sure that would end well.
00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:52.299
So we'll just cut it.
00:00:52.840 --> 00:01:01.390
Um, like I even had, couldn't even really do much in that, that MarketingOps.com rap song that Mike just reposted recently.
00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:06.159
So, uh, anyway, so let me move on then.
00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:11.349
So, joining us today, uh, we're gonna be talking about how to learn and grow in your marketing ops role.
00:01:11.409 --> 00:01:14.079
Uh, and joining us to talk about that is Raja Walia.
00:01:14.800 --> 00:01:17.289
Raja, I should have asked you before, like, did I pronounce it right?
00:01:17.289 --> 00:01:17.920
Well, you can get to,
00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:18.700
yeah, no, you're good.
00:01:18.704 --> 00:01:19.539
Yeah, no, you're good.
00:01:19.539 --> 00:01:19.750
Yeah.
00:01:20.170 --> 00:01:21.099
Raja Walia is good.
00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:23.050
Uh, a lot of people call me Raj or Raja.
00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:25.390
Um, I will tell you, a lot of people just call me Raj, so.
00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:25.689
Got
00:01:25.689 --> 00:01:25.810
it.
00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:25.900
Okay.
00:01:26.140 --> 00:01:26.530
That's whatever works.
00:01:26.530 --> 00:01:32.439
So Raj is the founder and principal consultant of GNW Consulting, a marketing automation CRM consulting company.
00:01:33.299 --> 00:01:39.465
GNW is the latest in a series of marketing and marketing operations, and, Automation consulting organizations that he's been a part of.
00:01:39.465 --> 00:01:44.234
And, uh, I think he had a little bit of a stint in, uh, in-house in the marketing role.
00:01:44.234 --> 00:01:47.655
But, uh, Raja welcome and thank you for joining us today.
00:01:48.415 --> 00:01:49.585
Yeah, no pleasure to be here.
00:01:49.674 --> 00:02:03.445
And actually I've never had an in-house role, so it's, ever since my career kicked off, I've always been in consulting outside of like, you know, whatever jobs you get after college and whatever comes up, uh, whatever comes up and whatever jobs will accept you after you get your degree.
00:02:03.745 --> 00:02:05.965
Uh, but I've always been in consulting, so ever since.
00:02:05.965 --> 00:02:06.534
Oh, okay.
00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:06.974
Career.
00:02:07.644 --> 00:02:08.514
All right, there you go.
00:02:08.514 --> 00:02:12.355
So I, there's failure number one for me day.
00:02:12.355 --> 00:02:14.574
So, well, at least first one on this.
00:02:14.574 --> 00:02:18.085
It's probably not the first one on the day, but, um, so, okay.
00:02:18.085 --> 00:02:32.395
So I really, I think this is gonna be a good one for the folks who are our listeners and, um, because I think a lot of folks, I know I get a lot of questions, we see'em in the MarketingOps.com community about like, how do you learn, what should I learn next?
00:02:32.395 --> 00:02:33.564
That kind of stuff for our folks.
00:02:33.564 --> 00:02:39.280
But before we get into that, um, So we just highlighted a little bit about your career.
00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:49.120
Why don't we, you share a little bit about, you know, your career, um, and, uh, you know, what led you to stay in consulting the whole time.
00:02:49.180 --> 00:03:05.680
And, and maybe one of, one of the things I know I'm interested in is, are there sort of, sort of points in your career where you sort of could have gone down path A or path B that you, you know, kinda led you this way and or are there people that you think were significant in, in kind of helping you through your.
00:03:07.134 --> 00:03:08.155
Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:03:08.155 --> 00:03:10.405
Um, so can I give you a background by myself?
00:03:10.435 --> 00:03:15.265
Uh, me, myself, I started consulting, I wanna say in 2011.
00:03:15.625 --> 00:03:20.814
Uh, I worked for a consulting agency at the time, and that was actually just when marketing automation was kicking off.
00:03:21.175 --> 00:03:28.585
At that point in time, I don't think Marketo had branded themselves of Marketo, but they had just rolled out certification after the first year of consulting.
00:03:28.914 --> 00:03:34.526
Uh, so I was one of like, I think the first 10 pilot members of the original, original, original Marketo Certifi.
00:03:34.805 --> 00:03:38.164
Exam or whatever, whatever essentially that was, that was called.
00:03:38.645 --> 00:03:45.905
Um, uh, real quick, the second part of your question, as far as what made me stay in consulting, so
00:03:45.905 --> 00:03:46.055
yeah.
00:03:46.055 --> 00:03:51.085
So because I know I, I started in consulting, different kind of consulting way back in my career and then I.
00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:56.469
I shifted away and I always, I think, I always thought I would go back to consulting and then never did.
00:03:56.469 --> 00:03:56.650
And,
00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:07.030
you know, consulting's, one of those things is that once you, either you hate it or you like it, and I always, and I just gravitated, gravitated towards it mainly just because there was so much.
00:04:07.289 --> 00:04:08.520
Uh, differences, right?
00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:10.169
There's so many companies that you work with.
00:04:10.169 --> 00:04:15.650
There's so many marketing strategies, there's so many flavors and so many builds that you learn across platforms.
00:04:15.655 --> 00:04:20.819
So, you know, I originally started with like, you know, Marketo and then I slowly expanded to HubSpot, Eloqua.
00:04:21.090 --> 00:04:27.930
At one point in my career, I was certified in Pardo and Marketing Cloud, and I'm active certified in the Salesforce and Dynamics.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.649
you know, slowly kind of go down the, uh, realm of strategy.
00:04:31.919 --> 00:04:35.730
And I think one of the best parts about consulting program me was that it was never the same.
00:04:35.730 --> 00:04:39.570
I think one of the things I always felt going in-house is you market one product.
00:04:39.570 --> 00:04:46.139
Maybe we have expansions, there's upsells, and it gets, and it gets a little bit like, uh, I wanna say it gets a little bit repetitive, right?
00:04:46.139 --> 00:04:53.370
Because essentially you're marketing one product and the life cycles are always anonymous, closed, one where are upsell opportunities.
00:04:53.700 --> 00:04:56.159
But with consulting you get the idea, you get the benefit.
00:04:56.159 --> 00:04:57.299
I wanna say not even with the.
00:04:58.044 --> 00:05:05.215
Um, well, you have to have ideas actually, with consulting, you have to have ideas for multiple organization, whether it's B2C or whether it's b2b.
00:05:05.514 --> 00:05:13.075
So I think that's one of the things that just made me stay in consulting for the longest time, because when one project stops, another project starts.
00:05:13.735 --> 00:05:23.409
and sometimes there's 10 projects that starts and you have to be very quick on your feet and you have to be very intuitive enough to know what a company's or what, what a company's goals is.
00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:25.000
Goals are, sorry.
00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.240
And how does that tie into their current tech tech?
00:05:28.245 --> 00:05:29.320
How are they leveraging it?
00:05:30.129 --> 00:05:35.409
Um, so first when I started, um, you know, I think everyone had every strategy in the world, right?
00:05:35.409 --> 00:05:38.379
They would, they would talk about like lead scoring as this mythical thing.
00:05:38.379 --> 00:05:39.789
And they're like, you can score.
00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:47.289
Leads and you can organize them and people will know that the points make them more, the points the better.
00:05:47.289 --> 00:06:00.129
And now I think, uh, kind of tie into the topic is like, you know, what, what makes, uh, like how do, how do you grow and your marketing ops career is like, we've come to a point where you really have to kind of like know your shit.
00:06:00.250 --> 00:06:03.549
Like there is no more pie in the sky strategies anymore.
00:06:03.549 --> 00:06:06.340
Like you have to understand technology cuz if you.
00:06:07.419 --> 00:06:21.009
you might be able to pitch yourself and you might be able to sell yourself, but as soon as you start actually doing the work, people will catch on relatively quickly that Hey, you know what this is, this is someone that has either been doing it for a small amount of time or it's just been bullshit, like from the get go.
00:06:21.190 --> 00:06:25.899
So, and I think that's one of the cool things about consulting is cuz you're constantly getting knowledge checked.
00:06:26.110 --> 00:06:32.080
You're constantly getting, does this person actually stand behind what they're saying and do they know how to do it?
00:06:32.080 --> 00:06:33.460
Like actually physically do.
00:06:34.514 --> 00:06:35.184
Compared to not do it.
00:06:35.184 --> 00:06:56.065
And I think that's one of the things that kind of keeps me on my toes is because even though I founded G N W Consulting and you know, we've grown exponentially over the last four years as an organization and we have clients that are with, you know, various marketing automation platforms, not just one is that you get knowledge checked and you have to be, you have to do your due diligence and make sure your knowledge is on point.
00:06:56.409 --> 00:07:05.919
If not a person that just started that's been doing more research will find out very quickly if you're, you know, if you're just blowing hot smoke, uh, or if you're blowing like hot air their way.
00:07:06.039 --> 00:07:06.279
Yeah.
00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.679
So I think that's one of my favorite parts about consulting.
00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:10.750
That's interesting.
00:07:10.809 --> 00:07:15.039
Um, I'm, so, I'm curious going a little bit off track here, but I wanna follow up on something.
00:07:15.039 --> 00:07:20.710
So I'm curious when you, that that being checked for knowledge that aligns with my experience in being consulting, right?
00:07:20.710 --> 00:07:22.600
So you're sort of forced to stay up with stuff.
00:07:22.605 --> 00:07:24.250
I'm curious, do you get called in.
00:07:25.009 --> 00:07:30.830
Either clients, new clients or existing clients when they're considering new, new technology.
00:07:32.274 --> 00:07:39.684
So, um, well, it's not too off track, but we get called in at various stages of, with our clients.
00:07:39.684 --> 00:07:43.134
So it could be they, they could be in the vendor selection process.
00:07:43.134 --> 00:07:52.044
And since we have clients that, you know, have different platforms, they'll ask us, which is our favorite one, and then based off on their skillset, like if someone's more techn.
00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.500
Advanced and you know how to write sequel phrase and run code and you're a B2C customer.
00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:57.070
Well, hey, guess what?
00:07:57.070 --> 00:07:58.539
You know what Marketing cloud might be the king.
00:07:58.929 --> 00:08:07.899
But if you have someone that's a very good mar marketing strategy person, but you know, it might be like an ops role or they might not be very technical.
00:08:07.904 --> 00:08:11.500
Then you have other platforms like Marketo, which is huge that comes in the play, right?
00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:18.490
So we will either get pulled in from a vendor selection, we're trying to do this, what is our tech stack to, we have this tech stack.
00:08:19.434 --> 00:08:20.274
What do we do with it?
00:08:20.274 --> 00:08:24.414
Like, are we optimizing like the standard consulting type of questions people get asked, right.
00:08:24.504 --> 00:08:24.774
So, yeah.
00:08:25.134 --> 00:08:25.495
Well, it's
00:08:25.495 --> 00:08:26.184
it, sorry.
00:08:26.184 --> 00:08:50.125
It was so, it was top of, not sort of top of mind for me because I had a, I was in a conversation earlier today with somebody talking about, uh, who was, it was actually is a MarTech vendor was asking for input on like, how should we be selling to marketers or marketing tech people and, and, um, Like they were struggling and I was like, I think part of this is because.
00:08:51.054 --> 00:08:51.504
Yeah.
00:08:51.534 --> 00:08:55.105
Marketing tech or marketing ops people tend to be a, they're really busy, right?
00:08:55.134 --> 00:08:57.024
And so like to get their attention alone, right?
00:08:57.024 --> 00:08:59.424
So they're, they're gonna be wanting to get, move stuff along.
00:08:59.424 --> 00:09:03.024
And we're used to sort of evaluating stuff.
00:09:03.115 --> 00:09:06.475
Like I, I was, we got in the conversation about if I asked for a demo, I want a demo.
00:09:06.475 --> 00:09:08.694
I don't want you to be asking me a bunch of questions.
00:09:09.144 --> 00:09:16.764
And at the same time, so we actually had a couple of episodes on this, uh, like a year ago on, like, we actually talked about how to sell to mar marketing ops.
00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:18.625
And then we, we actually had a couple sales people.
00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:20.439
Wanted to counter that, which was great.
00:09:20.439 --> 00:09:33.069
We actually had a really good conversation, but at the same time, I'm like, the reason I'm saying that is because I know that your demo's gonna be like a really clean Right con controlled environment.
00:09:33.100 --> 00:09:33.189
Yeah.
00:09:33.189 --> 00:09:39.519
Of data and SY in a, that is like, this is the best case scenario, but I'll also be looking like, okay, I want to know.
00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.600
given what I know about my shit storm, right.
00:09:43.929 --> 00:09:45.129
in my environment.
00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:45.639
Right?
00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:52.149
What or what, you know, maybe it's not even a shit storm, but I know that there are issues or nuances or difference in the way we go to market than the way they think about it.
00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:57.490
That, um, I, you know, I, I can pretty much go like, okay, I get the.
00:09:57.689 --> 00:10:02.339
The strategy or the potential of this, but I'm not sure I could, it, it will match up with us right now.
00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:02.639
Right?
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:02.789
Or I
00:10:02.789 --> 00:10:03.089
might, yeah.
00:10:03.350 --> 00:10:10.470
And, and see that that what you said right there is probably like one of the most key things in the modern day marketing automation space, right?
00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:12.750
Like knowing what I know and knowing.
00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:20.629
What it is like, does that strategy match up with the technology and does that, does that strategy match up with, from a business objectives?
00:10:20.629 --> 00:10:20.899
Right.
00:10:21.230 --> 00:10:30.589
So when you, when you wanna grow in your ops role, whether you're starting, you have to make sure that c, I mean, the tech landscape is so huge and people will sell you the most.
00:10:30.684 --> 00:10:32.634
Pristine conditioned environments.
00:10:32.634 --> 00:10:36.054
And then when you get it and you start setting it up, either data isn't there.
00:10:36.054 --> 00:10:39.355
And that as something, as consultants, you just know, right?
00:10:39.355 --> 00:10:46.194
Like Naomi said it like, you know, you said it like, it's just, you just know, like that is not the current state of things right.
00:10:46.199 --> 00:10:47.125
For yourself.
00:10:47.125 --> 00:10:52.404
And I think when you grow into your ops role, that's something that is, is, is tenure.
00:10:52.464 --> 00:10:57.115
Like you just, you just learn that over time, rather than kind of believing a flashy demo.
00:10:57.730 --> 00:10:58.059
Yeah.
00:10:58.360 --> 00:10:58.449
Mm-hmm.
00:10:58.899 --> 00:10:59.439
what did I say?
00:10:59.439 --> 00:11:03.069
What I always say, um, Michael, is, uh, I wanted you to present your deck backwards.
00:11:03.579 --> 00:11:03.850
Ah,
00:11:03.850 --> 00:11:04.149
yeah.
00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:06.879
That's really, that's, that's the secret with
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:07.269
Naomi.
00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:07.569
Yeah.
00:11:07.809 --> 00:11:08.299
Yeah.
00:11:08.304 --> 00:11:11.899
Present your deck to me backwards cuz I wanna see the end Yeah.
00:11:12.589 --> 00:11:15.169
I don't need to see what Fortune 500 companies also utilize your
00:11:15.174 --> 00:11:16.189
platform Totally.
00:11:16.189 --> 00:11:18.350
I was like, I don't need to see your logo page.
00:11:18.350 --> 00:11:19.279
Like I don't care.
00:11:19.370 --> 00:11:20.089
Not right now.
00:11:20.089 --> 00:11:22.399
Like at some point if we get further along, maybe that makes
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:22.759
a difference.
00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:29.449
You know, it's funny, it's funny cuz when I actually do pitch to extra companies and you know, they wanna know what about our consulting, like, you know, packages and services.
00:11:29.689 --> 00:11:33.470
The second slide is a bunch of logos and like, all right, this is my validation page.
00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:35.250
These are the companies we've worked with and we.
00:11:35.524 --> 00:11:36.304
From that one, right?
00:11:36.304 --> 00:11:41.084
Like this is, the logos are just there to give you some sort of, you know, some sort of easement.
00:11:41.089 --> 00:11:45.394
Like, okay, it's just not like, you know, a a, a mom and pop shop or something.
00:11:45.394 --> 00:11:48.334
Or it's not, it's not something like local or something that you made up.
00:11:48.339 --> 00:11:51.274
Like these are actual companies that have trusted us and we move off.
00:11:51.304 --> 00:11:53.735
It's like a one second slide.
00:11:53.975 --> 00:11:55.564
And that's how it's exactly its pitch.
00:11:55.564 --> 00:11:57.034
So I have
00:11:57.034 --> 00:12:04.389
actually gotten that question like, a couple of linked, like a bunch actually of people on LinkedIn being like, do you ever want to see logos on a presentation?
00:12:04.389 --> 00:12:06.250
And I'm like, well, actually, yes.
00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:06.669
Yep.
00:12:06.699 --> 00:12:10.629
And it comes when I'm trying to do internal selling.
00:12:10.809 --> 00:12:11.169
Exactly.
00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:15.730
And I'm trying to tell the people who hold the purse strings, right.
00:12:16.464 --> 00:12:24.115
These are what our competitors or people in our industry are using and we need to do the same or similar, right?
00:12:24.115 --> 00:12:28.584
So that's when I do want to see logos, especially if they're competitors of ours are in the same
00:12:28.584 --> 00:12:29.154
landscape.
00:12:29.424 --> 00:12:31.584
That is exactly the same for me, right?
00:12:31.644 --> 00:12:31.764
Mm-hmm.
00:12:32.095 --> 00:12:33.264
like it's, it is important.
00:12:33.264 --> 00:12:36.235
Just not, I don't, I think it's important at the different time.
00:12:36.504 --> 00:12:38.245
So I'm curious.
00:12:38.250 --> 00:12:38.725
So Naomi, I'm.
00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:48.959
So what Rod said about, um, like seeing new stuff all the time, having been in consulting, like that resonated with me and like I, but I'm in a, I'm in a big.
00:12:49.509 --> 00:12:54.819
Like in an organization where I think his, his description of like the same, basically the same stuff.
00:12:54.939 --> 00:12:56.679
Selling the same stuff, the same audience, right.
00:12:57.329 --> 00:12:57.879
No, no, no.
00:12:58.629 --> 00:13:00.129
I'm not saying it's boring or anything,
00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:09.250
I'm just No, I, I, no, but I think I'm curious though, cuz Naomie, you work for, you also work internally, but you just, even like you work with across multiple brands, right?
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:09.370
Mm-hmm.
00:13:09.789 --> 00:13:14.769
So do you, do you feel like you get some of that kind of creativity of.
00:13:15.379 --> 00:13:18.230
Applying stuff in different ways because of that for sure.
00:13:18.230 --> 00:13:21.589
Because every business unit has its own needs, right.
00:13:21.589 --> 00:13:24.679
And, um, not all of the requirements are gonna be the same.
00:13:24.684 --> 00:13:29.149
So we are, we are, my team is run like a small, like an internal agency for.
00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:31.509
The company definitely.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.100
Um, it sometimes feels like you're working for a bunch of different companies, but, you know, trying to align everything under the same, um, end goal, so,
00:13:40.449 --> 00:13:40.870
yeah.
00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:41.500
All right.
00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:46.629
Well let's, so let's get into some of the things that we we're gonna talk about, Raj, with you, about, um, kind of how you like.
00:13:47.199 --> 00:13:51.699
Because you've been in consulting for a while, um, and you're sort of forced to keep up with stuff.
00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:56.259
Maybe going all the way back, I think you mentioned this, like you were in, call it an og, right?
00:13:56.259 --> 00:13:57.220
With with Yeah.
00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.589
was it Marketo or whatever, but yeah.
00:13:59.589 --> 00:14:06.189
What, like what have you seen kind of in the landscape of marketing automation or MarTech in general, right?
00:14:06.189 --> 00:14:06.870
What do you see that.
00:14:07.750 --> 00:14:18.759
you've seen that has come along and gone, gone through that way, and what have you learned and what do you think we should be looking, you know, how do you think people, whether they're in-house or consulting, can then kind of try to.
00:14:19.615 --> 00:14:20.845
keep up with what's going on.
00:14:21.654 --> 00:14:31.554
Yeah, no, I mean, a lot from the very, very starting, I think if you go back to like 2011 when Mark, uh, when Mark Tech or marketing operations, even before MOPS was a mops, right?
00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:38.485
Like before even the word mop, marketing operations consisted everyone were like marketing manager, and you had a, you had a platform that you used,
00:14:38.964 --> 00:14:39.355
you know?
00:14:39.444 --> 00:14:39.654
Yeah.
00:14:39.654 --> 00:14:45.115
I, I was an e-marketing person for a while, like whatever that was like, nobody uses that anymore.
00:14:45.414 --> 00:14:46.794
I was a marketing manager.
00:14:47.634 --> 00:15:00.084
Yeah, you, I'm not sure where the one was or where the two began or where the three began or anything like that, but I was originally a marketing manager one, and this was before Marketo had programs and before, you know, marketing operations was a thing.
00:15:00.504 --> 00:15:12.355
But one of the things that I've seen kind of change drastically is that, you know, circle ba, what I was saying is like the knowledge of something new can be kind of overhyped and fluffed up.
00:15:12.444 --> 00:15:15.054
And I think there were a lot of strategy that.
00:15:16.014 --> 00:15:20.365
Existed that no longer kind of applies or is kind of like what we were saying is.
00:15:21.745 --> 00:15:22.704
Yeah, obviously, right?
00:15:22.704 --> 00:15:24.534
Like the whole pitch deck backwards.
00:15:24.804 --> 00:15:37.644
We know in what you're selling us, and it's the hardest thing to do as to sell to marketers, is because when you look at a pre-header, you don't look at it as a pre-header that has something, you look at what the pre-header is, what the subject line consists of.
00:15:37.824 --> 00:15:39.174
Is there a hero image?
00:15:39.204 --> 00:15:40.644
Is there a c t A button?
00:15:41.095 --> 00:15:46.674
And I think one of the biggest changes with marketing operations over time is that more and more.
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.589
the next generation of marketers are just more tech savvy, right?
00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:52.600
So it's very hard.
00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:57.399
Even though technology and the concepts are kind of the same, you can't talk about concepts anymore.
00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:02.559
You have to talk about actual, you know, rolling up your sleeves and doing the work and how does it.
00:16:02.814 --> 00:16:16.704
How does it trickle down into what you're saying into worse, like versus just talking about this unicorn jumping over a rainbow, shitting Skittles, and all of a sudden you have marketing operations in a nutshell, and then all of a sudden you have revenue.
00:16:16.709 --> 00:16:17.004
Right.
00:16:17.514 --> 00:16:26.784
Um, that's, I think the biggest change is that if you talk to someone that's a c t or a cio, or even at the highest level, they know their products in and out.
00:16:26.904 --> 00:16:30.894
And from a marketing perspective, the biggest thing that's changed is when you.
00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:39.549
You know, someone at the sea level, they need to understand the product and the technology in order to devise a a cohesive strategy.
00:16:39.789 --> 00:16:50.139
And I think that's one of the biggest things that I've seen change, is that you can't walk into a group of people such as yourself or even Naomi or into an org and say, Lead scoring will solve everything.
00:16:50.169 --> 00:16:52.659
Okay, well how, like, how is it gonna solve it?
00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:53.919
How do we implement it?
00:16:54.189 --> 00:16:55.269
Where do we start?
00:16:55.329 --> 00:16:58.209
Where all those questions were never asked.
00:16:58.209 --> 00:17:07.870
Because when we used to pitch decks to companies and we said, lead scoring is this amazing thing and you can rate your leads and you know, they're hot, warm, and cold leads and people are like, that's amazing.
00:17:07.870 --> 00:17:10.299
That's the most, that's the most brilliant thing I've ever heard.
00:17:11.009 --> 00:17:12.809
and now it's more of like, okay, well what's a hot lead?
00:17:12.809 --> 00:17:14.279
Like how do you define it?
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:15.539
What are the characteristics?
00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:16.470
What are the what?
00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:18.120
What is the ideal customer profile?
00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:27.089
All of those other components you have to be able to talk to, but you also have to be able to know the product that where it's being implemented to truly kind of graft a strategy.
00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:27.899
That makes sense.
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:28.619
Yeah.
00:17:29.910 --> 00:17:30.660
That's interesting.
00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:46.980
Um, how do you think, um, do you think that's become even harder as there's been this proliferation of marketing technology platforms that are like, I I think of'em as very sort of bespoke for really niche things, right?
00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.379
That Yeah, you generally, you have a core, right?
00:17:49.379 --> 00:17:53.609
Some sort of marketing automation platform, a crm, and then after that, like things.
00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:54.789
Some
00:17:54.789 --> 00:17:55.889
sort of a quick that's sort of content.
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:56.700
Yeah.
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.720
Some sort of content manager.
00:17:57.869 --> 00:17:58.079
Yeah.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:05.129
Um, I, I don't think it's, and this is obviously my personal opinion, I don't think it's become more difficult.
00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:13.829
I think it's just choosing, uh, of what array of products are the easiest for your team to use and get to your goals.
00:18:13.829 --> 00:18:17.789
Like, it's not ne like a b m strategy conceptually Makes sense.
00:18:18.014 --> 00:18:27.345
But what product is gonna help you achieve your ABM strategy and which one can you use easily and train and net new people and onboard as fast as possible?
00:18:27.345 --> 00:18:34.424
I feel like those are the items that people have to look into, into, like, you know, sometimes when people go with a big name company and they'll be like, yes, we need this.
00:18:34.424 --> 00:18:34.664
Why?
00:18:34.664 --> 00:18:35.894
Because everyone's using it.
00:18:36.254 --> 00:18:37.095
Not necessarily the case.
00:18:37.095 --> 00:18:40.994
Cuz you're onboard to onboarding time is where it's gonna kill you, uh, the most.
00:18:40.994 --> 00:18:41.234
Right?
00:18:41.234 --> 00:18:41.924
Like, so Yeah.
00:18:42.345 --> 00:18:43.545
Like, I think it's interesting.
00:18:43.545 --> 00:18:45.224
So for like ABMs a great example for me.
00:18:45.224 --> 00:18:46.904
Like I've never actually implemented ab.
00:18:47.649 --> 00:18:58.569
Platform because every time I get into the conversation with the companies I've been at, I always push back and go like, I don't think we're ready from an organizational standpoint to just go and buy technology.
00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:02.139
It's not gonna fix our strategy or how we approach things.
00:19:02.144 --> 00:19:02.319
Right?
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:02.379
Yeah.
00:19:02.379 --> 00:19:12.009
So like we have to think differently and like, and I think we can probably make some steps forward with our existing, like our Cortex stack without buying new stuff.
00:19:12.309 --> 00:19:14.690
And what was interesting, the one in particular, I'm think.
00:19:15.204 --> 00:19:17.125
like we couldn't even get to a top hundred account.
00:19:18.085 --> 00:19:18.325
Yeah.
00:19:19.045 --> 00:19:21.204
So what's the point of ABM technology at that?
00:19:22.224 --> 00:19:24.565
Well, so ABM is a huge push, right?
00:19:24.565 --> 00:19:27.625
Like everyone wants ABM and there's a lot of product and vendors out there.
00:19:27.625 --> 00:19:32.964
And what they do is they can, they consolidate all of what you're talking about, the technicalities of it easier.
00:19:33.024 --> 00:19:36.355
Like they just make it easy for you to identify what your target accounts are.
00:19:36.934 --> 00:19:37.865
Well, if.
00:19:38.305 --> 00:19:43.315
Know, once again, what your target accounts are or what the digital makeup of those target accounts are.
00:19:43.315 --> 00:19:52.674
Those technologies will give you whatever that you plug in, and if you don't know what you're plugging in, then the output is gonna be just as you know, as just as.
00:19:53.575 --> 00:19:56.365
Bland, so you don't even know what you're paying for a product.
00:19:56.365 --> 00:19:59.934
And that's where people get into conversations like, why are we paying for something that we're not using?
00:20:00.805 --> 00:20:05.184
You know, traditionally ABM strategies really fall under like two concepts.
00:20:05.394 --> 00:20:09.625
You know, one are doppelganger accounts and one are la land and expand model.
00:20:10.315 --> 00:20:20.365
And you can do that within your c r m, like, you know, you don't need, you don't need a, a piece of software to essentially kind of show you, you just need a piece of software to make your life easier to consolidate all of those things.
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:25.329
Yeah, so this is really interesting.
00:20:25.389 --> 00:20:28.149
Uh, my dogs agree with you there, You can hear'em.
00:20:28.869 --> 00:20:29.289
They're just talking.
00:20:29.289 --> 00:20:31.839
Um, they're just like all about abm, I'm telling you.
00:20:31.845 --> 00:20:32.119
That's right.
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:32.619
That's that.
00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:33.940
That's how hot of a topic is.
00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:35.319
Even people don't understand abm.
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:42.910
You mentioned ABM and people's ears perk up, Um, I'm, I'm speaking on ABM at B2B mx, just regarding that topic.
00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:50.019
Uh, particularly, uh, topic, but I so reason shows that topic is everyone's ears are always out, cuz that's what Google's top 10.
00:20:50.769 --> 00:20:56.259
ABM strategies going into 2023 blogs are, you know, taking over everyone's feed and so, right.
00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:00.069
So, um, shifted a little bit here.
00:21:00.069 --> 00:21:19.315
So one of the other things we've talked about is like, how do it, like are there differences in the type of marketing or marketer that you are like, so I think, I think it's probably safe to say the majority of the people who, who are lister, podcaster mostly b2b, um, So probably some b2c, we've had a few guests on that were more b2c.
00:21:19.315 --> 00:21:21.654
So, um, I guess there's a difference.
00:21:21.654 --> 00:21:29.154
But one of the things I've noticed lately is a lot of B2B marketers talking about like, needing to kinda bring in perspective or similarities, some of the B2C kind of things.
00:21:29.154 --> 00:21:31.315
Like I think basically saying, don't be boring.
00:21:31.464 --> 00:21:31.734
Right?
00:21:32.004 --> 00:21:32.754
Try to be Yeah.
00:21:32.934 --> 00:21:37.315
You know, but, um, do you, what do your, what is your take on.
00:21:38.035 --> 00:21:56.634
uh, like are there, are there more common things that are common in sort of, I hate to use the term best practices, but principles, I guess, for b2b, b2c, and you even mentioned something B to student, which we could elaborate on maybe if you want, but, or do you see there, there's more differences in, you know, what do you, what are you seeing that's common or different?
00:21:56.634 --> 00:21:57.085
Those.
00:21:58.984 --> 00:22:05.555
So, so business a student or BDS is essentially just mailing for the higher ed space that I've done consulting and that's what they're called, their BS model.
00:22:05.764 --> 00:22:07.954
Make sure, make sure you get the two in that one
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:08.285
there.
00:22:08.764 --> 00:22:09.125
Yeah.
00:22:09.125 --> 00:22:09.605
The number two.
00:22:09.605 --> 00:22:09.904
Yeah.
00:22:09.904 --> 00:22:10.625
The B two s.
00:22:10.625 --> 00:22:11.585
Yeah, the bs.
00:22:12.035 --> 00:22:17.704
Um, but that's common in the higher ed space cuz they always market, you know, they refer to their, you know, prospects of students.
00:22:17.704 --> 00:22:19.694
We refer to our prospects of prospects and.
00:22:20.305 --> 00:22:26.004
Refer to them as clients, uh, you know, obviously they're students, uh, that are continuing their education career or something along those lines.
00:22:26.035 --> 00:22:26.065
Oh,
00:22:26.365 --> 00:22:28.524
I'm very familiar cuz I have a high school senior right now.
00:22:29.095 --> 00:22:29.514
Yeah.
00:22:29.514 --> 00:22:29.785
All right.
00:22:30.204 --> 00:22:41.035
Um, well, so the difference between B2B and b2c, I, you know, this is gonna be very, I'm not sure if it's gonna be an unpopular opinion or I don't know if it's gonna be a popular opinion.
00:22:41.035 --> 00:22:41.785
I'm not too sure.
00:22:42.204 --> 00:22:44.724
A lot of people talk about these components as like very separate.
00:22:44.724 --> 00:22:47.214
They say, well, B2B marketing is your marketing to the business.
00:22:47.869 --> 00:22:49.879
Business and consumer, you're marketing directly to the consumer.
00:22:49.879 --> 00:22:53.629
So consumer side has to be more flashy because you have to get a person's attention.
00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:53.990
Right?
00:22:54.230 --> 00:23:10.579
That's the, that's the, ideally like, oh, they have these buttons, they have these graphics, and one of the things that technology has changed is everyone's removing themselves from the conversation of the main purpose of any type of marketing is getting, like getting.
00:23:11.730 --> 00:23:17.319
Prospect, I'll just call'em that, to notice what you're talking about and to believe what you're saying is true.
00:23:17.889 --> 00:23:24.309
And you can have the flashiest email, email in the world, but if it doesn't drive home any kind of messaging, it's kind of irrelevant.
00:23:24.849 --> 00:23:34.539
Um, design, I feel like has gone the way of, you know, Cascading style sheets inside.
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:43.599
You know, it's just design inside email is very, is very heavily looked at as the end all be all to get someone's attack, uh, uh, attraction.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:48.819
But as consultants, we know that if person never gets your email, because every single company has so many filters blocking it.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.879
It's, it's never gonna work.
00:23:51.879 --> 00:23:56.710
So when people really talk about in a consulting space, like, Hey, we want to be more like b2c.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.009
It's not that B2C emails.
00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:05.349
If you look at, you know, MailChimps or whatever, companies like open rates, and that's where like the strategy drives from.
00:24:05.589 --> 00:24:06.730
That's not necessarily like b2c.
00:24:06.730 --> 00:24:08.889
Open rates are drastically.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:12.670
Crazy high because of the del, because of what they're delivering, right?
00:24:12.670 --> 00:24:15.519
Like is what the design or what the messaging is.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.420
But a lot of B2B marketers think that the emos need to be more B2C related.
00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:20.559
But what is B2C selling?
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.430
What is the product?
00:24:21.849 --> 00:24:25.629
Their volume of people that they're marketing is a lot higher, right?
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:33.889
Uh, So I think, um, to original, like, you know, to go back to your question is like, you know, what can B2B take from b2c?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:39.170
I think they can, B2B marketing can really kind of take away like what is a good cadence?
00:24:39.230 --> 00:24:46.509
You know, not every email needs to go out Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 8:00 AM you know, bus business to a consumer marketing is.
00:24:46.964 --> 00:24:48.194
Seven days a week.
00:24:48.674 --> 00:24:50.055
Yeah, I check emails on Saturday.
00:24:50.055 --> 00:24:51.644
You check emails on Saturday, right?
00:24:51.674 --> 00:24:56.805
There's a big thing at Myth, you know, a myth host and B2B is we only wanna deliver Monday.
00:24:56.805 --> 00:24:57.585
People are busy.
00:24:57.615 --> 00:25:00.464
We're gonna send an email Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday at optimal time.
00:25:00.464 --> 00:25:01.244
Don't send Friday.
00:25:01.244 --> 00:25:02.414
People are gonna drive home.
00:25:02.835 --> 00:25:04.845
And B2C is just like, we don't care.
00:25:04.845 --> 00:25:05.954
We're just gonna send you an email.
00:25:05.984 --> 00:25:09.944
We're gonna send you an email cuz we know that you're gonna either read it or you.
00:25:10.335 --> 00:25:15.134
Talked to messaging and a lot of B2B clients that we worked with, we've just randomly AB tested.
00:25:15.134 --> 00:25:30.464
We just shot an email out on Saturday and lo and behold, you know your kids are, I mean, I have two young kids and they go, they go to naps effectively between 12 to 3:00 PM and we just shot an email out at 11 or four or something like that, and glance, and there you go.
00:25:31.194 --> 00:25:36.204
You had a higher conversion rate just because people are not busy through the day of the day.
00:25:36.204 --> 00:25:41.065
So like, I think that's the, those are a couple concepts to kind of take away from B2B versus B2C marketing.
00:25:41.365 --> 00:25:43.194
It's not getting structured into that.
00:25:43.404 --> 00:25:50.125
Well, I think that's an interesting, like, that's a really interesting point in that, um, cause I think a lot of people when they see like, what can B2B take from b2c?
00:25:50.125 --> 00:25:53.125
They think about the, the creative elements, right?
00:25:53.184 --> 00:25:55.075
And the copy and the like.
00:25:55.785 --> 00:25:58.065
The, the tone of voice, things like that, but
00:25:59.414 --> 00:26:01.184
a lot of exclamations and emojis.
00:26:01.815 --> 00:26:03.014
Well, yeah, but not even that.
00:26:03.014 --> 00:26:11.984
But I think your point of like, oh, well actually, like don't be afraid to challenge your assumptions about like, is it okay to send on a Friday afternoon?
00:26:12.795 --> 00:26:23.785
Like I tell our, I've actually, I remember years ago seeing some stated, and I have no idea if it's still accurate, that Friday afternoons were actually, were a great time to get senior executives if that was your target audience.
00:26:24.234 --> 00:26:33.055
Cuz Friday afternoons they're not in meetings, they're cleaning up their email and if you catch'em while they're in their inbox Right, you get a chance.
00:26:33.055 --> 00:26:35.305
So like, um, yeah.
00:26:35.664 --> 00:26:41.095
And you know, one of the, one of the biggest things to, to not take away is that B2C marketing.
00:26:41.710 --> 00:26:52.839
And the design heavily focused is gonna, is gonna actually deter you because, uh, when, when I say deter your, like, open rates or, or your engagement rates is because in B2B marketing, a lot of people use Outlook.
00:26:52.839 --> 00:27:04.180
We have scanners, like if we work at corporations, oh, you know, B to B2C marketing is Gmail, Yahoo, iCloud, you know, top three and then a couple other ones I can't think of right now.
00:27:04.389 --> 00:27:05.529
Hot Hotmail still, ya.
00:27:06.264 --> 00:27:06.444
Yeah.
00:27:06.444 --> 00:27:08.244
Live or, yeah, an outlook.
00:27:08.454 --> 00:27:20.934
And in b2b, if you go very design heavy or you start using custom font and you start throwing Google fonts in there, that's an immediate, you know, we did, we did so many validity tests through Everest, and we just found that.
00:27:21.875 --> 00:27:24.724
If you, the more design you have, and b I mean, everyone knows this, right?
00:27:24.724 --> 00:27:39.365
It's not like something, it's not like a a, a crazy strategy that I'm saying is that in B2B marketing, you wanna take design from b2c, you're not gonna get the same return as B2C because they're sending to people that have Gmail accounts for y mail accounts, and we're sending to Outlook and, you know, yeah.
00:27:39.365 --> 00:27:42.815
We were sending Outlook or business domains that are very heavily monitored.
00:27:42.815 --> 00:27:43.355
So, yeah.
00:27:44.764 --> 00:27:47.504
Curious, Naomi, like in your, have you.
00:27:48.024 --> 00:27:49.194
had challenges with that.
00:27:49.194 --> 00:27:52.855
Like people saying, oh, we can only send on certain days and times a day.
00:27:53.664 --> 00:27:54.085
And have you ever
00:27:54.625 --> 00:27:55.045
challenge that?
00:27:55.045 --> 00:28:03.835
Yeah, I think, um, yeah, actually it's interesting because just a couple weeks ago I had like an email trends and best practices call with my internal business partners who we kind of debunked a lot of these things.
00:28:03.924 --> 00:28:06.714
Um, and saying like, well, who said who said that?
00:28:06.774 --> 00:28:07.434
What's the source?
00:28:07.434 --> 00:28:07.704
Why?
00:28:07.734 --> 00:28:07.855
Yeah.
00:28:07.964 --> 00:28:08.204
Right?
00:28:08.204 --> 00:28:11.724
And how, and then I actually pulled, um, our business partner.
00:28:11.724 --> 00:28:13.004
I was like, how many of you actually.
00:28:13.674 --> 00:28:15.264
Email on a weekend.
00:28:15.384 --> 00:28:17.904
How many of you actually check email on in the evening?
00:28:17.904 --> 00:28:18.234
Right.
00:28:18.565 --> 00:28:23.095
Um, and so it was, I think it was pretty eye-opening for everybody and I was just like, you know what?
00:28:23.095 --> 00:28:32.424
We don't know until we try and it's better to try an AB test and to just make these assumptions based on information that is potentially out of date that we just don't.
00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:35.440
Have any basis for, so why don't we just try?
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:49.480
And so I think that was really well received and there's definitely, um, uh, more openness I think to, you know, it, it seems to be this like mental block where people are like, I don't wanna send work email on a Saturday or not a work email, but like a work marketing email on a Saturday.
00:28:49.484 --> 00:28:49.519
Right?
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:49.720
Right.
00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:50.559
But, but, and
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:51.490
I'm like, why?
00:28:51.845 --> 00:28:52.325
Yeah.
00:28:52.644 --> 00:28:53.244
Worst that's happened.
00:28:53.244 --> 00:28:53.904
They'll get offended.
00:28:53.904 --> 00:28:54.924
I, I don't know why.
00:28:54.924 --> 00:28:55.075
You
00:28:55.075 --> 00:28:59.095
know, and, and that's the, and that right there I think is like consulting 1 0 1, right?
00:28:59.095 --> 00:29:03.835
And that's what I love about consulting is like, how do you know if you haven't tried?
00:29:03.835 --> 00:29:06.924
And the worst thing that they're gonna do is they're gonna unsubscribe to you anyway.
00:29:06.924 --> 00:29:07.224
Right?
00:29:07.585 --> 00:29:15.535
Like no matter what, like they're gonna unsubscribe whether they receive an email on Monday, Wednesday, Tuesday, but it's not like someone's gonna get a email on Saturday and be like, these.
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:22.349
Unsubscribe, like, you know, the, if we can work until 10:00 PM and the whole work from home.
00:29:22.750 --> 00:29:28.059
Items and everything that's talking about, like all of this stuff, people check emails during the same time.
00:29:28.059 --> 00:29:36.639
It's, you know, the worst case scenario if someone unsubscribes, but they're gonna un if that person was gonna unsubscribe, they're gonna unsubscribe Monday through Friday just as much as Saturday and Sunday.
00:29:37.149 --> 00:29:37.539
Well, I,
00:29:37.545 --> 00:29:44.740
yeah, I think, I think it's like the more important thing is like, regardless of when you send it, is it, is it gonna be useful and valuable to the recipient?
00:29:44.950 --> 00:29:45.160
Right.
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:46.960
And if it's not, it doesn't really matter when you.
00:29:48.714 --> 00:29:49.254
So, yeah.
00:29:49.315 --> 00:29:49.974
You know what I mean?
00:29:50.754 --> 00:29:52.944
All right, so let, let's get into this.
00:29:52.944 --> 00:30:01.105
So you already talked about like as a consultant, you're expected to be sort of the expert on probably a lot of things, even things that are like new.
00:30:01.644 --> 00:30:12.595
So what, what are some strategies that you apply to keep up with stuff and kind of continue to learn that our listeners could benefit from that they could try to apply to their own sort of career and development?
00:30:14.154 --> 00:30:14.785
Yeah, so
00:30:15.774 --> 00:30:16.315
that's kind of a.
00:30:17.549 --> 00:30:20.410
Question because it's one of those things, it's a mindset.
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:25.480
There's not really anything that I apply, like, I don't go out of my way to do something.
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.099
I, it's not like I, I, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you, like, read every tech notes that come with your platform.
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:37.240
You know, I, I'm a big fan of technology and one of the reasons I've stayed in consulting and martex along is because I like technology, right?
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.339
So, if you like something, you're gonna pay attention to it.
00:30:39.339 --> 00:30:43.599
I'm really, really terrible at fantasy football because I have no idea what's going on.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:43.869
Why?
00:30:43.869 --> 00:30:45.639
Because I'm not vested into it.
00:30:46.424 --> 00:30:47.535
So it's not.
00:30:48.234 --> 00:30:50.634
I don't have, I don't have a subscription to a newsletter.
00:30:50.634 --> 00:30:53.875
I don't get like a 10 type type, uh, you know, top 10 topics.
00:30:54.085 --> 00:30:55.075
This is trending.
00:30:55.345 --> 00:31:11.504
I think if you're in the mop space and you're looking at, like, even in your guys' channel, you know, for the, for the Slack channel, like I feel like being part of communities in my personal opinion is a lot more important because in those type of communities, that's where people are asking questions.
00:31:11.509 --> 00:31:12.585
Like, there's so many questions.
00:31:12.585 --> 00:31:12.785
I.
00:31:12.869 --> 00:31:21.059
Answer it inside like your Slack channel where someone posts something and there's stuff that someone is posting that even I didn't know about because they found a different solution to it.
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:26.759
I feel like those to me, matter most, like being engaged and being part of those communities.
00:31:26.764 --> 00:31:28.920
I feel like that's what helps you learn.
00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:40.769
Like asking people that have either done it or doing it or have D done something or will be doing it right, like I feel like those are where I kind of put all my time.
00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:43.389
I mean, yeah, I reach patch notes.
00:31:43.389 --> 00:31:44.230
I kind of have to, right?
00:31:44.230 --> 00:31:48.309
Like you have to know what Marketo is changing or what marketing automation platform is changing.
00:31:48.670 --> 00:31:55.930
But I think that's probably would be my recommendation is join communities and connect with people that are actively working on projects.
00:31:56.295 --> 00:31:58.934
Doing it and then see what you can learn from them.
00:31:58.934 --> 00:32:02.835
Seeing what takeaways, because that's the best way to, you know, increase your skillset.
00:32:02.865 --> 00:32:04.184
Like that's the skillset I have.
00:32:04.214 --> 00:32:07.545
I don't have a skillset of reading documents or watching YouTube videos.
00:32:07.545 --> 00:32:15.045
I have a, I have a skillset of doing and listening and working with other agencies, uh, in my career, and that's where I learned everything from.
00:32:15.105 --> 00:32:15.345
Yeah,
00:32:15.345 --> 00:32:16.035
it's interesting.
00:32:16.095 --> 00:32:16.664
I, I.
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:21.309
Early in my career, a lot older than either of you, I think.
00:32:21.639 --> 00:32:31.210
But I, like I say, tricky up with stuff I subscribe to, like very nerdy, like publications that were free, and I was pretty consistent about reading'em.
00:32:31.214 --> 00:32:42.759
I mean, the idea, like there wasn't really this idea of a community, but it's interesting just again, just today, earlier today in the marketing ops.com Slack, I had posted a question like last week.
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.839
People chimed in and someone actually, I was like, Hey, can you talk about this?
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:49.450
Cuz it's like, I didn't, I, something I hadn't seen.
00:32:49.450 --> 00:32:51.309
And that person gave me a call.
00:32:51.309 --> 00:32:55.779
We talked for 15 minutes and I learned a whole bunch, like in 15 minutes just like that.
00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:57.460
So it's,
00:32:57.490 --> 00:32:58.960
yeah, it's, that's where.
00:32:59.295 --> 00:33:00.855
That's where you and I got connected, right?
00:33:00.855 --> 00:33:08.744
Like there was, there was no, like, you know, LinkedIn is such a broad atmosphere and you know, there's so many agencies, there's so many companies, there's so many people working on stuff.
00:33:08.750 --> 00:33:13.154
But that's where you and I got connected and that's where we had our conversation as far as like, hey, like what do you do?
00:33:13.424 --> 00:33:13.504
Yeah.
00:33:13.504 --> 00:33:13.665
That's where we
00:33:13.704 --> 00:33:15.105
started Naomie.
00:33:15.105 --> 00:33:23.894
How, like, I'm curious how, like, how do you, like, how do you and maybe your team, like how do you help your team keep up, uh, kind of up like learning and developing on.
00:33:25.254 --> 00:33:27.204
Whether it's technology or process or whatever.
00:33:27.444 --> 00:33:30.714
Yeah, I think, um, and this goes back to how I structure my team, right?
00:33:30.714 --> 00:33:34.105
So everyone on my team is a subject matter expert in their own area.
00:33:34.164 --> 00:33:41.335
Um, it's a, what I did not want is a team of kind of marketing general generalists.
00:33:42.504 --> 00:33:48.115
So the way that my team is structured, everybody can, you know, execute a campaign end-to-end.
00:33:48.115 --> 00:33:50.694
Everybody is, you know, very proficient in Marketo.
00:33:50.904 --> 00:33:55.914
Either has passed their CE or is taking their CE within the next couple weeks actually.
00:33:56.335 --> 00:33:57.355
Um, and.
00:33:58.764 --> 00:34:00.835
So every, so everybody has that same baseline, right?
00:34:00.835 --> 00:34:06.055
So that helps with things like coverage and holidays and, you know, people being out of office and things like that.
00:34:06.414 --> 00:34:11.005
But additionally, every person has their own kind of like area that they're responsible for.
00:34:11.005 --> 00:34:12.894
So I have a full blown web developer on the team.
00:34:13.345 --> 00:34:20.184
Um, a data operations person, a process slash documentation analytics person, and then somebody that I, who.
00:34:20.525 --> 00:34:23.195
Sit on the ops team, but um, is on a different team.
00:34:23.195 --> 00:34:33.125
But I, I do rely on for some design stuff and how that has benefited the team is that not everybody has to know everything exactly perfectly right?
00:34:33.425 --> 00:34:37.115
So they're, everybody is responsible for their area and there's.
00:34:37.525 --> 00:34:51.235
Situations where, when we're on a team call or whatnot, um, if there's things that will impact, you know, the way that our team functions or process or what or um, how we kind of aid our business partners, they will let the team know.
00:34:51.235 --> 00:34:57.675
And so that way everybody, we can just mind share and it's just a lot better than everybody trying to keep on top of everything, all at.
00:34:58.025 --> 00:35:00.035
Um, like that movie, what is it?
00:35:00.035 --> 00:35:00.905
Everything Everywhere.
00:35:00.905 --> 00:35:03.995
All at Once or um, right.
00:35:03.995 --> 00:35:04.265
Yeah.
00:35:04.265 --> 00:35:11.045
So it's just, it, it's, it's made it much easier to handle because like, as you all know, everything changes all the time.
00:35:11.345 --> 00:35:11.735
Yeah.
00:35:11.745 --> 00:35:12.144
Yeah.
00:35:12.875 --> 00:35:13.475
That's interesting.
00:35:13.715 --> 00:35:13.775
Yeah.
00:35:13.835 --> 00:35:22.625
In my case, cause I'm going through a little bit of like shifting a little bit of kinda responsibilities around it, but part of it is to also build in coverage.
00:35:22.625 --> 00:35:23.135
Just like, yeah.
00:35:23.135 --> 00:35:24.275
Like we didn't have that.
00:35:24.485 --> 00:35:25.835
There was not a lot of slack for that.
00:35:28.015 --> 00:35:45.144
and, but one of the things I do is I try to make sure as I'm working with them, especially for the folks who are relatively new either to the business or to this function, is try to answer, like provide the context about why we're, why, either why I'm suggesting something or doing something.
00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:46.585
But I want them to understand the why.
00:35:46.615 --> 00:35:50.215
Cuz I think beyond the technology, cuz I think we've all hinted at it, right?
00:35:50.215 --> 00:35:54.745
There's usually more than one way to solve a business thing, especially in marketing, right?
00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:11.980
with technology, there's not necessarily one that's better than the other set of trade offs, but I try to help them think about like the, the broader perspective, um, particularly if we're talking about things that tie in with like marketing to sales, kind of lead, lead flow and things like that.
00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:15.580
Because there's just so many things that are downstream that you have to take, think about.
00:36:16.765 --> 00:36:18.775
and that, I think that's the thing I try to do for my own team.
00:36:18.775 --> 00:36:22.495
And then yeah, for myself, I, I try to keep up with stuff.
00:36:22.495 --> 00:36:24.144
Community is definitely a piece of it.
00:36:24.144 --> 00:36:27.894
I mean, I probably said it several times on these podcasts.
00:36:27.894 --> 00:36:35.095
Like if it, I could, I'm trying to, like, if I could imagine what my career would've been like had this been around 20 years ago, like it would've been.
00:36:35.740 --> 00:36:37.360
I think of actually different experience.
00:36:37.810 --> 00:36:38.019
You would've
00:36:38.019 --> 00:36:42.730
retired cause you would've invested in Slack right?
00:36:43.240 --> 00:36:44.560
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:53.470
But I mean it's Naomi's point, like even as you know, A as g and W consulting has been growing, what she said is a hundred percent what you have to do.
00:36:53.470 --> 00:36:54.850
Like everyone has to be do.
00:36:55.500 --> 00:36:57.070
Everyone has to be able to do some.
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.144
of a role in marketing operations, right?
00:37:00.445 --> 00:37:11.725
When we were, you know, when I, we were like, uh, I still talk about it like where every, everywhere where I worked when I was still starting, and one person could build campaigns and you know, if that person went on vacation, you would have to wait.
00:37:11.725 --> 00:37:11.905
Why?
00:37:11.905 --> 00:37:14.215
Because like that skillset was still being developed.
00:37:14.215 --> 00:37:14.485
Right?
00:37:15.025 --> 00:37:18.475
So if you think about growth in marketing ops, like.
00:37:18.940 --> 00:37:21.850
You cannot, you cannot be afraid of doing something.
00:37:21.850 --> 00:37:30.370
Like you have to be well versed enough to know that I can run a campaign, I can set up a program, I can execute an email, uh, you know, coding and stuff like that.
00:37:30.375 --> 00:37:30.385
Yeah.
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:32.500
There, eventually that gets into specialty skills.
00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:39.760
But even as g and w Consulting has been growing, the idea is everyone has to learn everything and let, then let's find.
00:37:40.495 --> 00:37:43.555
What your, uh, then let's find out like what your skillset is.
00:37:43.585 --> 00:37:50.365
What, like what is the thing that makes you you and then you have your baseline and then you have something that you're very, very specialized at.
00:37:52.075 --> 00:37:53.035
That's a good, I think.
00:37:53.035 --> 00:37:53.455
Good way.
00:37:53.845 --> 00:37:54.055
All right.
00:37:54.055 --> 00:38:03.045
So one other thing that, uh, Raja you and I talked about is you, you had mentioned something and, uh, total transparency for our, our audience.
00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:03.085
Right.
00:38:03.085 --> 00:38:05.605
I I didn't take very good notes when I talked to Roger.
00:38:05.605 --> 00:38:22.405
So, um, he, he, you mentioned something about, um, kind of on the ground learning or, or like in real time I think is maybe how you would've phrased it, but like, what do you mean by that and kind of how, how, how do you, how does that fit into this whole kind of idea of trying to continue to learn?
00:38:23.095 --> 00:38:27.205
Yeah, I'll, I'll give you a prime example and I, I don't recommend anyone trying this at all.
00:38:27.715 --> 00:38:28.705
Uh, even remotely.
00:38:30.325 --> 00:38:38.475
At first when I was starting in consulting, when I mean on the ground learning, I mean, it's just like doing something, following instructions well enough and.
00:38:39.310 --> 00:38:44.590
Not failing as hard as I've had cuz I've straight up deleted a company's Google Analytics account.
00:38:45.220 --> 00:38:47.320
Now I don't recommend anyone doing that.
00:38:47.325 --> 00:38:47.710
Right?
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:59.650
That taught me a lot of things, But at the same time, when I talk about like actual lesson learned on the ground, what I'm really talking about is actually doing stuff, you know, not just talking and.
00:39:00.260 --> 00:39:09.140
Theoreticals and, you know, strategy and like getting wrapped up into like all of these, the top 10 things to optimize your marketing operate.
00:39:09.140 --> 00:39:13.700
Like, are they really top 10 things or they really like two things somewhere over there.
00:39:13.700 --> 00:39:15.140
Like so on the ground.
00:39:15.140 --> 00:39:16.519
Just, you know, it is just a way of meaning.
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:17.240
It is just a way of meaning.
00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:20.840
Like, you know, do it, test it, you know, you don't ha.
00:39:21.640 --> 00:39:34.580
Marketing automation platforms currently allow you to send yourself an email, like be the target audience for yourself, and execute a campaign with one person and knowing that you're gonna send it to yourself and walk through that.
00:39:35.185 --> 00:39:36.175
Entire process.
00:39:36.235 --> 00:39:38.905
So that way, you know, you learn by doing right.
00:39:39.055 --> 00:39:40.405
And that's really what it means, right?
00:39:40.405 --> 00:39:43.045
Like, you know, knowing that hey, something's gonna go off.
00:39:43.705 --> 00:39:53.905
Was it like, I think like last year, hbo, which is like a huge company, send out like a giant email with someone like Lead Token, and they were getting like, you know, made fun of and they released a statement and all of that good stuff.
00:39:54.115 --> 00:39:54.985
That's all I'm talking about.
00:39:54.985 --> 00:40:02.185
Like if that person, whoever did that, they learned by doing and they will never make that mistake ever again in Ter in inside their entire life.
00:40:02.394 --> 00:40:04.605
Just like I will not delete a Google a.
00:40:04.855 --> 00:40:13.045
Account for the entire company, cuz I was up until two in the morning calling Google saying, can you please, please restore this account?
00:40:13.045 --> 00:40:15.205
My life and my job depends on it.
00:40:15.210 --> 00:40:23.245
Like, and like, once again, I, I wouldn't recommend people doing that, but that's kind of the, that's kinda like the, um, the backbone behind, behind it.
00:40:23.455 --> 00:40:23.725
I think
00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:32.605
anyone that works in marketing ops has horror stories like this or anyone who's worked in the industry long enough knows, has like instances where it's.
00:40:33.410 --> 00:40:43.700
Wednesday at like three in the morning, and then they immediately wake up and like crawl to their laptop or bring it into bed, and it's like, let me just double check that I'm sending this in the right time zone to the right people.
00:40:44.100 --> 00:40:44.500
mm-hmm.
00:40:44.790 --> 00:40:45.140
So
00:40:46.410 --> 00:40:46.900
yeah.
00:40:46.900 --> 00:40:47.220
Yeah.
00:40:47.220 --> 00:40:47.780
Mm-hmm.
00:40:47.870 --> 00:40:48.220
so.
00:40:48.605 --> 00:40:50.285
So that's, that's the premise behind it, right?
00:40:50.285 --> 00:40:52.085
Like, until, until you do stuff like that.
00:40:52.085 --> 00:40:55.595
Because once again, until you do stuff like that, you're never gonna not do it ever again.
00:40:55.865 --> 00:41:03.725
And I could tell you about my team, you know, that, you know, some relatively new, some tenured that have done stuff, you know, a as g and w consulting and been growing.
00:41:04.025 --> 00:41:05.975
We talk to clients, we're very open about it.
00:41:05.975 --> 00:41:06.605
We handle it, but.
00:41:07.195 --> 00:41:08.755
That's, that's the premise behind it.
00:41:08.755 --> 00:41:08.995
So
00:41:09.715 --> 00:41:14.335
yeah, I mean, I think there's so much, there's a couple things there that pick up.
00:41:14.335 --> 00:41:18.175
One, I think is like, don't be afraid to try stuff, even if you feel like you don't know it all the way.
00:41:18.175 --> 00:41:18.355
Right.
00:41:18.355 --> 00:41:20.545
You can learn from just trying.
00:41:21.175 --> 00:41:27.985
Um, the other part, and, and I, you know, I haven't thought about this as much lately, but I think it's really easy.
00:41:27.990 --> 00:41:29.905
I'm not like, it's, I think it's important to.
00:41:30.670 --> 00:41:32.710
You know, care about the work you do.
00:41:32.769 --> 00:41:37.420
But at the end of the day, for most of us, right, in these roles with, I'm sure some exceptions, right?
00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:43.870
If you have an email that goes out with tokens in it, or you delete the Google Analytics account, right?
00:41:44.890 --> 00:41:46.900
The world's not gonna, like, nobody's gonna die.
00:41:47.470 --> 00:41:48.910
Um, nobody's, like,
00:41:49.060 --> 00:41:51.220
nobody's, we're not sending, we're not sending people in the space.
00:41:51.580 --> 00:41:52.030
It's not hard search.
00:41:52.390 --> 00:41:54.190
I mean, um, like I, I, I.
00:41:54.730 --> 00:41:58.630
sort of fortunate enough that I have a, I have a friend who's literally is a neurosurgeon, right?
00:41:58.630 --> 00:42:03.550
And so like, I don't know how he, he handles that kind of stress.
00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:12.760
Um, I may have some idea, but like, I, that, to me, I'm like, okay, that's like, that's a job where you know, like your decisions can actually have true.
00:42:13.810 --> 00:42:15.310
true important consequences.
00:42:15.310 --> 00:42:30.190
And so yeah, it's, it's, it's easy to get caught up in the, in the frenetic pace of what we do and the expectations of always being on and that kind of stuff, and delivering more faster with less Right to that it, it matters more than it really is.
00:42:30.340 --> 00:42:30.970
So, yeah.
00:42:32.170 --> 00:42:32.769
Um.
00:42:33.355 --> 00:42:34.225
Interesting stuff.
00:42:34.255 --> 00:42:34.555
Okay.
00:42:34.555 --> 00:42:44.575
So what, I guess I'll just leave it with, is there anything else that you wanna share with our audience about like how, you know, learning growth, kind of keeping up with technology that we haven't already covered?
00:42:45.085 --> 00:42:45.385
Yeah.
00:42:45.535 --> 00:42:50.425
One of the main highlights is that, you know, we're a technology agnostic.
00:42:50.935 --> 00:42:55.465
I'm a technology agnostic person, meaning I've, I've, I know HubSpot, part up Marketing Cloud.
00:42:56.155 --> 00:43:00.485
There's things, even though they're unrelated, you can learn from other platforms.
00:43:01.575 --> 00:43:02.935
I would say don't put yourself in like.
00:43:03.894 --> 00:43:06.700
I am a professional at one software and system.
00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:11.170
There's stuff that you're gonna pick up from another platform that's gonna carry over, right?
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.050
You're, who knows what the future's gonna hold.
00:43:14.050 --> 00:43:19.420
So as long, the best way to like kind of diversify your skill is to learn more than one platform.
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:20.440
Like do not be.
00:43:21.130 --> 00:43:33.100
The best Marketo person on the face of this planet be a really good Marketo person, but a really good HubSpot, really good qua, really good, like dabble into all of these items because that's what's gonna really round out your skillset.
00:43:33.490 --> 00:43:46.750
And I feel like that's where I've personally had the most success at is that when someone's like, oh, you've used Qua, you've used HubSpot, you've used these items, you've used Salesforce, you use Dynamics, and you know, pretty much don't, don't funnel yourself into just.
00:43:47.725 --> 00:43:51.175
One item and learn it because there's things that you're gonna learn.
00:43:51.505 --> 00:43:53.485
And we ran it, we ran across this.
00:43:53.605 --> 00:43:54.655
I, I, I pitch it.
00:43:55.075 --> 00:44:07.045
I, I, I say as much as stuff, uh, there's stuff that I've learned and there's stuff that, you know, consultants that work at g w Consulting and that we've learned, that we've solved, like as issues and problems that we've solved in one platform.
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:20.065
where we've gone into another platform and we have a resolution because we already solved it in something else, or we already know how this would work, uh, or how like a workflow or sequence is gonna affect a smart list or a flow.
00:44:20.070 --> 00:44:21.835
Like we've already seen those elements.
00:44:21.835 --> 00:44:27.865
So yeah, that, that, that would be like, I guess the biggest thing is like, don't you know the technology space is growing so much.
00:44:28.075 --> 00:44:30.325
Don't combine yourself into just one platform.
00:44:31.615 --> 00:44:32.035
Got it.
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:36.220
Uh, I think that might generate some debate, actually.
00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:38.620
I think that's a common kind of thing we have here.
00:44:38.620 --> 00:44:39.490
So, good stuff.
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:41.290
Uh, RA Raj, thank you so much.
00:44:41.295 --> 00:44:46.810
If folks do wanna keep up with you or what you're doing, uh, what your agency's doing, how, what's the best way for them to to do that?
00:44:49.105 --> 00:44:49.555
Um, yeah, I
00:44:49.555 --> 00:44:52.045
mean, uh, go to the website, obviously.
00:44:52.045 --> 00:44:54.325
Hey, you know, you can go to gw consulting.com.
00:44:54.415 --> 00:44:57.955
Uh, we have a blog, uh, you know, there's a LinkedIn page.
00:44:58.225 --> 00:45:00.475
The LinkedIn page is continuously updated as well.
00:45:00.535 --> 00:45:02.185
Uh, there's a lot of good stuff on there.
00:45:02.185 --> 00:45:04.285
There's a lot of good stuff on the website.
00:45:04.290 --> 00:45:10.735
The cool thing is I'm not a big fan of gated content cuz we live in a world where everyone's information is readily available.
00:45:10.735 --> 00:45:13.745
So if you wanna go to the website, you can click on stuff, you can download.
00:45:14.405 --> 00:45:24.440
And you know, whenever people are ready to talk, you tell me like, you're not gonna have to give me your entire information because we live in a world where I already can technically have access to all your digital profiles.
00:45:24.470 --> 00:45:28.430
So uh, LinkedIn or the website is pretty much the best bet, so.
00:45:28.790 --> 00:45:29.240
Sounds
00:45:29.240 --> 00:45:29.660
good.
00:45:29.660 --> 00:45:29.990
All right.
00:45:29.995 --> 00:45:33.260
Well, Raj, thank you again for sharing with our, with our listeners and our audience.
00:45:33.290 --> 00:45:39.680
Appreciate it and thanks to our audience for, for, uh, continuing to support us and provide us good feedback.
00:45:39.685 --> 00:45:42.140
And, uh, if you are interested in.
00:45:42.410 --> 00:45:52.519
A topic that you want us to cover or a guest you want us to include or you wanna be a guest, feel free to reach out to Naomi, Mike Rizzo, or me either LinkedIn or the marketing ops.com community.
00:45:53.120 --> 00:45:55.100
Um, Naomi, thanks.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:59.450
It's always fun to get on one of these with you, so we'll have to do this more often.
00:45:59.630 --> 00:46:00.560
I know you guys definitely.
00:46:00.769 --> 00:46:04.160
So, um, Raj, thank you to everyone else.
00:46:04.340 --> 00:46:05.750
We'll talk to you now another time.
00:46:05.750 --> 00:46:06.290
Thanks.
00:46:06.350 --> 00:46:06.800
Bye.
00:46:07.670 --> 00:46:08.150
Thanks everyone.
00:46:08.150 --> 00:46:08.660
Take care.
00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:09.130
Bye.