The Cingulate Cortex, Mirror Neurons, and Spiritual Health

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Ken Hoffert
But, Paul wrote about this at our test, and, second response was that, and he said he'll defy and then take on every so called God or.
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Ken Hoffert
And then make it his own way.
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Ken Hoffert
And so this is this thing that's been is been released right. And I thought about that. Well, the whole point of that is to so overwhelm worship in our lives that someone else owns that place, which is a very powerful place for other beings. Worship is that place with that, is reserved for the creator. But if someone else can take it over, then they take everything.
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Ken Hoffert
They divert at the very core of them being out of what a human being is supposed to be.
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Joshua Hoffert
Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Wind Ministries podcast.
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Ken Hoffert
And, we have been, we've.
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Joshua Hoffert
Been on a, a brief hiatus for the last few weeks.
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Ken Hoffert
But we know that though. We.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's true. That's right. Someone might have just just now been tuning in. That's right. We've been listening to this. This could be. They could be listening to this in post-apocalyptic times.
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Ken Hoffert
You know, it could.
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Ken Hoffert
It's possible. That's right.
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Joshua Hoffert
It's maybe a thousand years down the road. And these these recordings have become wildly popular.
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Ken Hoffert
Finally.
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Ken Hoffert
So it's it it's it may take a while.
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Ken Hoffert
It may take a while. That's right. It may take a while. Yeah. That's right, that's right.
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Joshua Hoffert
but what we've been talking about.
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Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
For the last few months has been.
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Ken Hoffert
the, the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Concept of spiritual healing and.
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Ken Hoffert
Wholeness and what that what that, the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Thrust of.
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Ken Hoffert
That looks like and how that comes about.
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Joshua Hoffert
looking at and we've been, you know, diving into the weeds with the makeup of the brain. Yeah. So I'm here with my co-host.
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Ken Hoffert
dad.
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Joshua Hoffert
Hoffert.
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Ken Hoffert
So, dad, elder, the elder elders that we can just call you. Yeah.
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Ken Hoffert
The elder Hoffert.
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Ken Hoffert
Yes. Elder. Yes. yes. Yes, the aged one. Right. Well, we can think of different ways to say that, right?
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Ken Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Find him.
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Ken Hoffert
Yeah, well.
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Joshua Hoffert
I'm thinking.
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Ken Hoffert
Of, the,
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Joshua Hoffert
the big turtle in Neverending Story.
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Ken Hoffert
Right?
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Joshua Hoffert
15,000 years.
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Ken Hoffert
That's the older you get, the slower you talk.
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Ken Hoffert
There you go. That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's right.
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Joshua Hoffert
So we've covered we covered a few episodes ago.
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Ken Hoffert
We covered the, we went through the thalamus, the amygdala and.
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Joshua Hoffert
Our attachment center, our fight or flight, you know, our response center. So to say fight, flight, freeze or appease. And we talked about how, how those things are formed from a young age and how they either help or hinder us based on how they're formed. And large, largely when we talk about healing, and wholeness and spiritual maturity, what we're really talking about is, I think you've said this becoming whole brained.
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Ken Hoffert
yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
All right. Integrated in on the on the for different levels.
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Ken Hoffert
That we see, generally speaking, to understand the brain.
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Joshua Hoffert
So, so that's kind of what we mean is becoming a whole person.
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Ken Hoffert
right, right. And when.
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Joshua Hoffert
When Jesus talked, we talked about this. Jesus says in Matthew five that we're to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. And what that doesn't mean that we get everything right.
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Ken Hoffert
Although I guess I mean, he does get everything.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right, but the word itself doesn't mean perfect.
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Ken Hoffert
In the sense of, check boxes on a list. It means.
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Joshua Hoffert
Perfect in the sense of complete or.
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Ken Hoffert
Whole brought back together again. And so.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's really.
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Ken Hoffert
The the thrust of.
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Joshua Hoffert
The spiritual journey.
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Ken Hoffert
Is, coming back together again. We and.
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Joshua Hoffert
We talked about the difference between maturity.
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Ken Hoffert
And,
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Joshua Hoffert
maturity.
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Ken Hoffert
And oh, well, I can't remember what the term I'm looking for is. not healing and maturity. Anyway.
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Joshua Hoffert
Whatever. Go back and.
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Ken Hoffert
Listen to the other episodes. Yes. Yeah. the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Well, we talked the, the, the about the, ability to be yourself in difficult circumstances versus I'm growing in awareness of what the father thinks about me and what he's like.
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Ken Hoffert
Right. We define those two different things. Yeah. yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Spiritual health and spiritual maturity.
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Ken Hoffert
That's what we describe.
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Joshua Hoffert
Difference of or emotional health and spiritual.
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Ken Hoffert
There we go. You got.
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Ken Hoffert
It. Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Emotional maturity. I'm able to be myself in the midst of difficult circumstances. There's various pathways to get there. Christianity provides one, but you can go into the secular world and find tools for dealing with anxiety and and find a path to some semblance of emotional balance.
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Ken Hoffert
but.
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Joshua Hoffert
But that can never afford spiritual maturity to spiritual maturity means I'm growing in awareness of what the father's like, his affection for me, and how I'm to respond in life based on what he's.
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Ken Hoffert
Like and what he is. So, so those.
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Joshua Hoffert
Are two different.
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Ken Hoffert
Things. Yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
And so we're we're talking about how Jesus integrates with our journey into emotional health and spiritual maturity. And today our topic at hand is looking at this cingulate.
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Ken Hoffert
Cortex, which is a particular.
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Joshua Hoffert
Part of the brain. And we call.
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Ken Hoffert
That,
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Joshua Hoffert
When we're looking at the life model approach.
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Ken Hoffert
And Jim.
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Joshua Hoffert
While there and Alan Shaw, and then what other some others.
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Ken Hoffert
Have said,
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Joshua Hoffert
Bessel van der Kolk.
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Ken Hoffert
And
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Joshua Hoffert
Peter Levi in The Waking Tiger. This kind of some, some secular.
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Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
you know, secular.
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Ken Hoffert
psychologists and psychotherapists and stuff. And what they've said about the make up the brain.
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Joshua Hoffert
so we're at the cingulate cortex, which would be the third layer that develops,
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Ken Hoffert
Over,
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Joshua Hoffert
As you grow. And we're talking about we call it the Identity Center.
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Ken Hoffert
or.
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Joshua Hoffert
The attunement.
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Ken Hoffert
Center.
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Joshua Hoffert
Where your, where your identity lies and essentially where you find meaning in relation to the people that you.
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Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
The people that are in your life, especially the ones that are more mature than you.
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Ken Hoffert
That are a little bit further along than you.
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Joshua Hoffert
So whereas before in the amygdala, in the, in the thalamus.
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Ken Hoffert
In the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Attachment center and the fight or flight or response center, those are really.
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Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
Kind of base level instincts, right?
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Ken Hoffert
The, the.
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Joshua Hoffert
The thalamus being called the thalamus, the smoke detector, the.
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Ken Hoffert
Amygdala going, I'm, I'm.
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Joshua Hoffert
Attached and secure or I'm unattached and.
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Ken Hoffert
Anxious, to put it briefly. And then when we have,
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Joshua Hoffert
Experience the anxiety or the, or the security in that kind of drive, the experience and then the, our, the way that we are confronted.
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Ken Hoffert
With a.
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Joshua Hoffert
particular circumstance is.
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Ken Hoffert
you know, can largely be influenced, so.
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Joshua Hoffert
Fight, flight, freeze or peace. And, and so those are kind of base level instincts that happen like that. And while the attunement center does happen like that, it's it's a getting a bit more complex in how the attunement center responds, how it's formed, and how we start thinking through, who we become in relation to the cingulate cortex and.
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Ken Hoffert
How it works. right.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So I guess the the first question is that we can address is what is the cingulate cortex?
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Ken Hoffert
Do and how I was a way of, of defining that. And so
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Joshua Hoffert
That we've found the the life model is really helpful for that. And they talk about the, the three chairs, which is largely taken from Alan Shaw's, Alan Shaw's work.
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Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
And that and and so what we'll talk about this in a couple different ways. The three chairs is basically an understanding of how the brain presents options for our response once we get past okay, are we secure and safe or are we anxious or are we fearful or we avoidant at the base level of how I'm attached to my parental figures as I grow up?
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Joshua Hoffert
And then we get past the well, now I'm presented with a a dog has come to me, right? And so I've got it. Now I have to make a snap decision. And so I send the dog up to my attunement center, my identity center. And now I go, what kind of people are we in relation to dogs? That's kind of the question that's being asked.
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Joshua Hoffert
And what what kind of person am I? Who, who, who can I think of as a reference point? And these kind of thought processes happen in milliseconds before you actually even are consciously thinking of responding.
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Ken Hoffert
Right.
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Joshua Hoffert
But these are a they're a bit more complex in terms of how they're formed. So, the, the way that we understand this is essentially you're sitting on a chair and in front of you is an empty chair. And so anytime you are, confronted with a situation to respond to. And so now you've gone through the.
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Ken Hoffert
The, the.
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Joshua Hoffert
The thalamus of the smoke detector has gone. There's a situation we need to respond to. Here it is. What do we do. So the cingulate cortex is going well. Here's a chair in front of me. I'm sitting here and I'm looking at the chair and the the people on the chair in front of me are the, the people that.
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Ken Hoffert
you know, would be my.
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Joshua Hoffert
My father or my mother, my pastor or leader, my boss, the people that have influenced and weighed in.
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Ken Hoffert
On my life. Okay.
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Joshua Hoffert
And so it's my people, right? These are my these are it's my family.
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Ken Hoffert
My influencers and my and my. Yes. Connections.
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Ken Hoffert
Right. Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
And so, so now from I'm confronted with.
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Ken Hoffert
This crazy as you don't have to go to TikTok to get an influencer.
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Joshua Hoffert
No, no, you have.
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Ken Hoffert
Your own brain.
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Joshua Hoffert
It's your own brain. Yeah. Your own brain is is giving you a snapshot of what kind of person you are based on.
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Ken Hoffert
you know, processes.
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Joshua Hoffert
That happened like six times in a millisecond, right? It's projecting a person in front of you. How? Who? What are we in? How do we respond? And so you're you are before conscious thought. This is subconscious thought before conscious thought. You're already beginning to respond because something's been formed within you, and the people around you have formed that response in you.
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Ken Hoffert
Right?
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Joshua Hoffert
So I don't have control necessarily over who's on that chair in the moment. What I do have control over is how I form that over time. And, based on who I put myself around and.
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Ken Hoffert
you know, this.
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Joshua Hoffert
Is where actually we start to.
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Ken Hoffert
Take a conscious.
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Joshua Hoffert
You know, when, when you are a well, it's going back to attachment, the attachment center, when you have an insecure attachment with parental figures, you you can't just choose to be secure. It's you know, you can override that logically over time. You know, given five minutes to respond to a situation, you can convince yourself.
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Ken Hoffert
let's.
00;12;07;12 - 00;12;22;18
Joshua Hoffert
Say you hear a creaky noise in the house. Well, you can logically convince yourself that, well, that's just the house creaking. It's the wind blowing, right? Whatever. Right. But the split second response that says, oh, no, something's coming to get me. That's we've gone through the.
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Ken Hoffert
Amygdala and the thalamus.
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Ken Hoffert
Yeah. So when and when you say an insecure attachment. Yeah. What you mean is, I, I don't know, I because I don't have a, a solid framework within which to trust. I now have to, analyze every situation and try to decide whether I so analyze, not just in this in the. So the quick process goes on.
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Ken Hoffert
That rapid process goes on where I'm trying to determine, hey, can I trust this, can trust this. And if I, if I have an insecure attachment, I'm going to have a really hard time getting to the end of that question. If I if I have basic solid, healthy attachments, in my life that allow me to trust.
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Ken Hoffert
Right.
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Ken Hoffert
So I have confidence that these that I have these people for me. Yes. And and they have my back and they and they will help me walk through and figure this out. And because I have that, I can come up with a, a response that is a healthy response. But if I have an insecure response, I attachments, I'm going to keep flipping all around trying to find something that makes sense.
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Ken Hoffert
And I may or I may not find that. Yes. And that will affect how I make my decision on how I whether I trust this event or not, trust it.
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Ken Hoffert
Yes.
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Ken Hoffert
And person or.
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Joshua Hoffert
Whatever. Yeah. And you and anybody.
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Ken Hoffert
Listen and let me say I say and it's completely disconnected. Well, almost completely from the event right in front of me.
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Ken Hoffert
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
I yes.
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Ken Hoffert
Exactly.
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Joshua Hoffert
because it's connected with prior events that happen even sometimes before I was able to verbally articulate.
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Ken Hoffert
What I was feeling.
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Ken Hoffert
Right.
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Joshua Hoffert
So and you hear someone can go next. Yeah, exactly. Someone can go back a couple episodes and listen to our episode on the on the Attachment Center, and we're going to do a whole episode on attachment theory.
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Ken Hoffert
To try and tease that.
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Joshua Hoffert
Out. But the goal is this when we're talking about getting into level three and then level four, which is the executive function level, the goal is that I respond as a person of peace versus responding in anxiety or fear, and having to convince myself and come back to that place of peace, that that's really what we're talking about.
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Joshua Hoffert
The difference there is someone cuts me off and I respond in anger, well, how do I become the kind of person that when I'm cut off, I respond in blessing?
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Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;15;01;29 - 00;15;16;25
Joshua Hoffert
Therein lies the growth process we're talking about. And there is really where the cingulate cortex begins to help when we have a malfunctioning or a malformed, attachment center, a malformed.
00;15;16;28 - 00;15;18;26
Ken Hoffert
00;15;18;29 - 00;15;27;00
Joshua Hoffert
Fight flight, freeze, our response center. And, you know, we've had certain traumatic events. We've had a lack of.
00;15;27;02 - 00;15;28;20
Ken Hoffert
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Joshua Hoffert
Good parental input from a young age.
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Ken Hoffert
And we'd be a distant parent.
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Joshua Hoffert
Maybe we had parents. We had no parents. all that kind of stuff. Those things cause a certain way that our brain is formed. Well, now we sort of get to the cingulate cortex and the cingulate cortex, as we grow and mature, is actually vital in reforming the lower two levels as we come through the process of healing.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. This is why, you know, we talked about this, that you it's you. Sometimes it seems like we stumble into maturity, but you really don't. Because what happens? One of the significant places maturity begins to impact us is when we have people around us that we begin to trust, because trust gives access to the fast track of our brain, which with the divine, the fast, fast track and the slow track trust gives access to the fast track of my brain.
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Joshua Hoffert
Now that person begins to sit on my chair when I see them, and their tenderness and their affection for me. That they love me, that they're for me. And and I start to slowly orient my thought process around what that kind of person is like. So your brain operates on two wavelengths there. This could could be called the fast track and the slow track.
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Joshua Hoffert
Much of Christian discipleship focus is on the slow track.
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Ken Hoffert
Of the brain.
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Ken Hoffert
memorize these verses. Change their way. Change the way you think. Which they're helpful.
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Joshua Hoffert
Sure. Yeah, sure. It's. It is. Okay. Well, are you struggling with a particular situation? well, just remind yourself of the promises of God in scripture, like I, you know, I've I've seen people. They'll have a whole list of. If you have a financial worry, here's all the verses you need to memorize. If you have a relationship concern, here's all the verses you need.
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Joshua Hoffert
Memorize those nuts. Not a bad thing to do, right? But it's part of that process.
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Ken Hoffert
it is of interacting with something other than yourself or something other than your disconnected reality.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes, well, but it's not addressing the core of the.
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Ken Hoffert
But it is not. No, it's just trying to to force your slower track your, Yeah. Not that it's slow, but it that but that secondary common this the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Track of conscious thought. Right. It's like.
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Ken Hoffert
I'm, I'm going to.
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Ken Hoffert
Study a book about this. Right. I'm going to I'm going to.
00;17;49;17 - 00;17;51;10
Ken Hoffert
Look exactly right.
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Joshua Hoffert
I, I'll read a book about, about anxiety or fear and that.
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Ken Hoffert
Will help me recover myself.
00;17;59;00 - 00;18;29;22
Ken Hoffert
And why is it never works? It never does. Because I've I've read them. I read books on this and I read books on that, and then I yeah, I think I should know, I should be able to act better in these situations because I read all these books and I, and I have actually thought about I've interacted with them and I've and I've even tried to teach it only to find that it doesn't really make me react differently.
00;18;29;24 - 00;18;31;08
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;18;31;11 - 00;18;33;07
Ken Hoffert
That's what we're talking about.
00;18;33;09 - 00;18;35;04
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. They're right.
00;18;35;05 - 00;18;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to sing a quote this Jim Wilders said in regards to the cingulate cortex.
00;18;40;02 - 00;18;40;27
Ken Hoffert
00;18;40;29 - 00;19;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
He's quoting Dallas Willard, and, he quotes Dallas Willard as saying, he describes the soul. This is how Dallas describes a soul. And he says it's sort of a stream of energy and direction that's flowing inside of us. That's what he called the soul. Right? And Jim Wilder says, you couldn't have described the cingulate cortex better. It's a sort of stream of energy stream and a stream of energy and direction that's flowing inside of us, and that is determined largely the six times a second or six times a millisecond.
00;19;12;12 - 00;19;33;17
Joshua Hoffert
Whatever it is, is who are my people and how do we respond? That's the stream of energy, right? Right. Who are my people and how do we respond? Right. So I'm confronted with a dog that's running up to me. My attachment is going to drive my initial response, my, response center fear fight fight, fight, freeze appease is going to go.
00;19;33;18 - 00;20;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
What? What has happened to me before with dogs? Is this a threat? And now I'm going to go to the level three. What kind of people are we when dogs come around? For instance? my my daughter, which is your granddaughter? One of your granddaughters, she's now 11, and she she had for the first, well, eight years, 8 or 9 years of her life, she had an inordinate fear of dogs.
00;20;02;17 - 00;20;23;03
Joshua Hoffert
So she'd be walking down the street five, six years old, perfectly happy, minding her own business if a if she turned and she saw a dog nearby should freak right out right now. She never had any bad experiences with dogs or anything like that was just big. She didn't know what to do, right? She had this initial fear response and watch what would you do?
00;20;23;10 - 00;20;45;20
Joshua Hoffert
She would run to me to protect her. Right. So she's got hopefully secure attachment, right? She's got cingulate cortex. Who are my people? My dad. And now I'm going to go to my dad because he's going to protect me because my my flight response has said, this is a scary thing, right? Right. And because she didn't really have anything to weigh it against.
00;20;45;22 - 00;20;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
So we did the thing all good parents do is we said, well, let's just get a dog. So it'll start as a puppy.
00;20;52;09 - 00;20;53;20
Ken Hoffert
Everybody should have a dog.
00;20;53;21 - 00;21;04;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. It'll start as a puppy. So she'll get used to the puppy. And now you can't. If you go anywhere and there's a dog around, she wants to go up and pet it.
00;21;04;04 - 00;21;04;27
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;21;05;00 - 00;21;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so it's totally reframed how she saw things. So it's reframed her her a her attachment is secure. Now her fight flight freeze appears. Response has transformed because she has a positive engagement with dogs. Her people are people that love dogs I love dogs, and so now I'm going to go. And so now her natural response is no longer one of fear and fear and anxiety.
00;21;28;23 - 00;21;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
Her natural response is one of joy and longing. So how do we get that? How do we get the joy and longing response? Because that's what people want. When people want to recover themselves, when they come to counseling, they come to therapy. They come to prayer, counseling and or healing. They're going. I can't seem to control my response.
00;21;47;05 - 00;21;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
How do I do that? Well, I didn't give her a book about dogs.
00;21;51;24 - 00;21;53;04
Ken Hoffert
No. Okay.
00;21;53;07 - 00;22;01;29
Joshua Hoffert
That didn't work. That wouldn't have worked. You know, she'd read lots, but that doesn't work. I can't give her a book about dog and say, read this. It'll fix the problem. Right?
00;22;02;01 - 00;22;02;17
Ken Hoffert
Okay.
00;22;02;19 - 00;22;12;01
Joshua Hoffert
That didn't work. Or when she was struggling with sleep anxiety, I would come and I'd reason with her and tell her, well, you shouldn't feel anxious because of this logic.
00;22;12;01 - 00;22;14;24
Ken Hoffert
Did you pick that up? Yeah.
00;22;14;27 - 00;22;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
Logic didn't work.
00;22;16;25 - 00;22;17;12
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;22;17;14 - 00;22;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's a Harford family trait.
00;22;19;24 - 00;22;20;27
Ken Hoffert
And,
00;22;20;29 - 00;22;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
And then also I would, we found some Bible verses for her. Like, he gives sleep those that he loves and but that didn't work.
00;22;28;24 - 00;22;30;23
Ken Hoffert
So. So what has allowed me.
00;22;30;25 - 00;22;31;29
Ken Hoffert
Right. Yeah. Right.
00;22;32;01 - 00;22;51;18
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. Right. So but that's what happens then, right. Because we go it's not fixing my response. Yeah. What fixed her response. Hey, why don't you come lay with me and snuggle with me until you're calm again? Right. Because I was calm. That's operating on the cingulate cortex level. Who are my people now? My people can help calm me down.
00;22;51;18 - 00;23;03;08
Joshua Hoffert
And now that reframes how I respond. And now, when I'm stuck with that anxiety, or, for instance, when a dog comes, all of a sudden my response is naturally different because it's been formulated over time.
00;23;03;11 - 00;23;03;21
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;23;03;22 - 00;23;06;13
Ken Hoffert
Well, and that and that is and we'll get into this.
00;23;06;15 - 00;23;07;20
Ken Hoffert
But I'm going to throw the term out.
00;23;07;20 - 00;23;39;06
Ken Hoffert
There so we can get into it eventually. that mutual mind thing. Yes. Where you, you act as one having peace are able then to extend your peace or invite that person into your peace right until the two of you are connected in the way that you see that. Yeah. And you see it the same. And because you do, you've created a place where your minds connect together.
00;23;39;07 - 00;23;39;19
Ken Hoffert
Yes.
00;23;39;19 - 00;23;42;08
Ken Hoffert
And and they see things the same way.
00;23;42;11 - 00;23;44;10
Joshua Hoffert
And and that's excellent.
00;23;44;10 - 00;23;46;19
Ken Hoffert
Well put. Dad.
00;23;46;22 - 00;23;53;03
Joshua Hoffert
the and the thing is, and they're simple examples with my daughter. Right. But but there's examples that almost anybody.
00;23;53;03 - 00;23;54;04
Ken Hoffert
Can connect with.
00;23;54;07 - 00;23;54;13
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;23;54;18 - 00;24;07;13
Joshua Hoffert
The thing is, emotional emotional health or growth, it doesn't really change the process. That process doesn't ever really change.
00;24;07;15 - 00;24;08;05
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;24;08;08 - 00;24;19;17
Joshua Hoffert
It is it it becomes more complex because we experience more complex emotions, but it doesn't. How that process plays out and how that response is transformed doesn't change.
00;24;19;19 - 00;24;19;29
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;24;20;06 - 00;24;23;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It that lasts well into adulthood.
00;24;23;10 - 00;24;23;27
Ken Hoffert
And and.
00;24;24;01 - 00;24;24;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we will talk.
00;24;24;28 - 00;24;27;16
Ken Hoffert
About mutual mind in, in just a few minutes.
00;24;27;23 - 00;24;28;18
Joshua Hoffert
The thing is.
00;24;28;23 - 00;24;29;07
Ken Hoffert
00;24;29;07 - 00;24;40;17
Joshua Hoffert
With with all of that said, when, when the idea of handing her a book, when she is anxious about sleep because she was struggling with, if she fell asleep.
00;24;40;17 - 00;24;42;05
Ken Hoffert
Would you wake up again? Right.
00;24;42;06 - 00;24;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
I could handle her book or give her a Bible verse or with a dog, I could show her a picture or, give her a book to read about dogs.
00;24;51;26 - 00;24;52;21
Ken Hoffert
00;24;52;24 - 00;25;05;18
Joshua Hoffert
None of those things actually transformed the initial response. And that's what people are looking for, transformation. So our discipleship models typically start and stop at, here's the book or here's the Bible verse.
00;25;05;18 - 00;25;07;28
Ken Hoffert
That's our point. Right, right.
00;25;08;01 - 00;25;16;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so and so that addresses the the executive function of the brain, which is one of the more most powerful parts of the brain.
00;25;16;25 - 00;25;17;24
Ken Hoffert
Right, right.
00;25;17;25 - 00;25;24;22
Joshua Hoffert
And but then the executive function now has to regulate the rest of the systems by telling them to calm down.
00;25;24;24 - 00;25;25;19
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;25;25;21 - 00;25;30;08
Joshua Hoffert
And now we're working from the out from the outside in rather than the inside out.
00;25;30;11 - 00;25;30;19
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;25;30;26 - 00;25;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so we're not actually transforming people's responses when we say, let's do a book study. We may be giving them better information, right?
00;25;37;29 - 00;25;38;27
Ken Hoffert
Which is horrible.
00;25;38;29 - 00;25;55;11
Joshua Hoffert
Which would actually transform the responses, is that when you, a spiritually mature and wise person, gets up in front of the class and begins to talk through in the book as a, you know, part of the book, study the things that impacts the people the most is that someone got up there and told me how they apply that to their life.
00;25;55;14 - 00;26;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right now, I'm starting to develop what you have just said, the mutual mind on a class level. I'm starting to see that person as a trustworthy person. They're a little bit further along than me. There's someone I want to aspire to be like Paul. He uses these these kind of. He taps into this without knowing. He's tapping into it when he says, imitate me as I imitate Christ.
00;26;15;25 - 00;26;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right? He's not saying study the word like I do or understand the word like I do. He's saying, you know what I'm like, this is mutual mind. This is the cingulate cortex. This is I'm on your chair when you're presented with a with a, a, a moment of persecution. What what would Paul do right now?
00;26;33;24 - 00;26;40;15
Ken Hoffert
Think about Paul. Think about think about what did I do when I was among you? Paul says to the. Exactly. That's a long answer to the Corinthians, etc..
00;26;40;15 - 00;27;01;02
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. This is this is genius level discipleship, right? Because it's not saying, here's the principle, it's saying, what was it? What am I like? Yeah, right. And so he's actually giving them resources to respond in difficult circumstances when their neighbors reject them. Because for some I, I read just today, I was reading.
00;27;01;02 - 00;27;01;24
Ken Hoffert
In a,
00;27;01;27 - 00;27;03;18
Joshua Hoffert
Early church document.
00;27;03;18 - 00;27;05;22
Ken Hoffert
About how,
00;27;05;24 - 00;27;12;10
Joshua Hoffert
How the world rejects Christians just because they're Christians without really being able to. Why? Right. And Jesus talks about this, and.
00;27;12;10 - 00;27;13;21
Ken Hoffert
Paul goes.
00;27;13;24 - 00;27;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, you know what it was like for me? So think about me. So he's he's firmly putting himself on the chair of their mind and addressing the cingulate cortex. This is the these are the people that we are.
00;27;25;12 - 00;27;27;06
Ken Hoffert
So and he does this just. Yeah.
00;27;27;08 - 00;27;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
He does this just just finish the thought process out. He does this in almost every one of his letters in his greetings and his in his closings. He tells the people all like, these are the I, you know, this person sends their greetings, this person sends their greetings. He's he's constantly framing family for them. Right. And and giving them examples of people who he knows walk the Gospel Road.
00;27;51;28 - 00;27;52;13
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;27;52;15 - 00;27;53;14
Joshua Hoffert
And walk the journey.
00;27;53;14 - 00;27;53;25
Ken Hoffert
Out.
00;27;54;01 - 00;27;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right saying keep this person in front of you. That's essentially what he's saying.
00;27;57;10 - 00;28;23;00
Ken Hoffert
Well, and I was I've been reading, the last few days, Thessalonians and, and general loneliness. Paul says at for an example, Paul does in his letters, the Thessalonians are obviously struggling with people that won't work. They aren't doing, they aren't producing anything, and they're expecting everybody else to, you know, carry the load for them. Right.
00;28;23;00 - 00;28;43;27
Ken Hoffert
And Paul's response to that was, remember what I did when I was among you, right? I, I worked I worked, I really I worked hard and I worked long hours because I didn't want to be a burden on you. And I didn't want you to see that, that I was a burden. I didn't want you to have to do that.
00;28;44;04 - 00;29;09;10
Ken Hoffert
So because I was, I did this in front of you and demonstrated this to you. This is what to do with this group of people. I said, you don't reject them, but you teach them the process of being responsible for themselves and and being, people who take care of their financial resources, their own financial resources. Right.
00;29;09;10 - 00;29;28;10
Ken Hoffert
So Paul, Paul uses himself as an example as he was there to say, I know you're struggling with how to deal with this situation because it presents itself and you're just being overwhelmed by it. So here's here's your response. This is what I did when I was with you, right? This is what I demonstrated to you. Remember that.
00;29;28;10 - 00;29;37;10
Ken Hoffert
Let me sit in the chair in front of you right when you're having to deal with this, this issue as it keeps cropping up in, in your, your, your, your spiritual family.
00;29;37;13 - 00;29;38;03
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;29;38;05 - 00;29;43;23
Ken Hoffert
And when you when you try to address that, think of me and use me as an example.
00;29;43;25 - 00;29;44;06
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;29;44;13 - 00;29;47;14
Ken Hoffert
So yeah. Exactly. With me. Yeah.
00;29;47;16 - 00;29;54;24
Joshua Hoffert
So when a person's attachment center is disordered, it's insecure. There's insecure.
00;29;54;24 - 00;29;55;29
Ken Hoffert
Fearful and.
00;29;56;05 - 00;29;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
fearful and fearful.
00;29;57;01 - 00;30;01;00
Ken Hoffert
Avoidant. those are the three,
00;30;01;03 - 00;30;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
Attachments, the negative attachment styles, secure attachment and insecure attachment.
00;30;06;10 - 00;30;09;15
Ken Hoffert
anxious avoidant fearful avoidant.
00;30;09;17 - 00;30;23;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so the when, when our attachment style is anxious avoidant or fearful, the the cingulate cortex has no idea who to put on the chair.
00;30;24;00 - 00;30;24;25
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;30;24;28 - 00;30;26;28
Joshua Hoffert
It really doesn't because.
00;30;27;01 - 00;30;29;18
Ken Hoffert
Who do I trust. Exactly. Right. Back to that question.
00;30;29;19 - 00;30;33;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm right back to that. I can't trust anybody. I've been hurt.
00;30;33;04 - 00;30;36;02
Ken Hoffert
I, I have been abandoned. I don't know how to trust you.
00;30;36;05 - 00;30;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
Whether I've been intentionally traumatized by physical, verbal or sexual abuse or, maybe unintentionally traumatized by the lack of a nurturing.
00;30;47;14 - 00;30;52;15
Ken Hoffert
Caregiver in my life. Right, right. We'll talk about trauma and trauma, maybe in a later episode. but.
00;30;52;15 - 00;30;53;11
Joshua Hoffert
Just know that there's.
00;30;53;12 - 00;30;53;28
Ken Hoffert
There.
00;30;54;00 - 00;30;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
There are different types of trauma, and they.
00;30;55;14 - 00;30;56;25
Ken Hoffert
Impact you in different ways.
00;30;56;27 - 00;31;19;09
Joshua Hoffert
So, so if if my attachment on my, in the amygdala is fearful, avoidant or anxious, and Paul tells me that I don't know how to put him there, because when I'm confronted with a situation, I don't have a loving, secure attachment. So I don't have a person that can naturally sit on the chair. The people that would sit on that chair are people that have hurt me, who have yelled at me, who've been angry with me.
00;31;19;11 - 00;31;30;07
Joshua Hoffert
And so now I'm now, by the time I get to level three of responding to a situation I'm already have lost, I've already lost my response.
00;31;30;11 - 00;31;31;09
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right.
00;31;31;13 - 00;31;59;18
Joshua Hoffert
Because I don't know who to put on the chair. And I've already gone through the overwhelming anxiety and fear. So. So the whole system breaks down when you get. So it has to start at level one, move on to level two. And now in level three is where the Christian community starts to come along and bring. And this is where you therapy, in the sense of sitting down and talking to a counselor, can be so helpful because now the time I spend with the counselor is starting to put that person on the chair of my.
00;31;59;18 - 00;32;01;04
Ken Hoffert
Mind, right? Right.
00;32;01;06 - 00;32;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
Because I'm spending time with that person.
00;32;03;24 - 00;32;04;23
Ken Hoffert
And, and.
00;32;04;23 - 00;32;09;29
Joshua Hoffert
And that's where Paul's bringing them back. Not to principles, but to what it was like when he was.
00;32;09;29 - 00;32;13;08
Ken Hoffert
There among them, and the kind of things they witnessed about.
00;32;13;08 - 00;32;17;29
Joshua Hoffert
Him. Time spent is one of the most powerful discipleship tools.
00;32;18;01 - 00;32;20;03
Ken Hoffert
It it really is just yeah.
00;32;20;05 - 00;32;24;07
Joshua Hoffert
It it's funny that that that's requires being said.
00;32;24;07 - 00;32;25;07
Ken Hoffert
Right. Yeah.
00;32;25;14 - 00;32;26;23
Ken Hoffert
Today. Right.
00;32;26;26 - 00;32;48;25
Ken Hoffert
And when you say time spent, you also mean and a lot of, one on one or in a very small, intimate, intimate setting. It's not. And what what we're saying is, most of the time in our spiritual communities, we are, trying to get the most done in the least amount of time with the greatest number of people.
00;32;48;27 - 00;32;49;25
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.
00;32;49;28 - 00;32;56;20
Ken Hoffert
And that's right. And it's not a good discipleship, process.
00;32;56;23 - 00;32;58;10
Joshua Hoffert
And and then what what also.
00;32;58;12 - 00;33;00;17
Ken Hoffert
Because it's because it's not relational.
00;33;00;19 - 00;33;00;28
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;33;00;28 - 00;33;04;04
Joshua Hoffert
In the context of contemporary church, North American.
00;33;04;04 - 00;33;06;22
Ken Hoffert
Anyway, we'll say. Yeah. what what.
00;33;06;22 - 00;33;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
Also happens.
00;33;07;11 - 00;33;08;19
Ken Hoffert
Is that.
00;33;08;22 - 00;33;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
discipleship the.
00;33;11;26 - 00;33;13;12
Ken Hoffert
The.
00;33;13;15 - 00;33;16;26
Joshua Hoffert
Realistically discipleship is thought of as happening on Sunday.
00;33;16;26 - 00;33;18;11
Ken Hoffert
Morning.
00;33;18;13 - 00;33;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
Through the preaching and the teaching.
00;33;20;05 - 00;33;21;29
Ken Hoffert
Right, right.
00;33;22;01 - 00;33;31;18
Joshua Hoffert
And and then you might you if you're lucky, you have small groups. Right. But then you don't necessarily have spiritually mature people running those small groups.
00;33;31;21 - 00;33;32;04
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, right.
00;33;32;04 - 00;33;37;08
Joshua Hoffert
And then you also probably have a small group that might be 20 people when you really need one that's like five.
00;33;37;15 - 00;33;38;10
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;33;38;13 - 00;33;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and so because we scale and because we think bigger and better, we start to really miss the point. The part of boots on the ground discipleship that is me spending time with you and you seeing, just by my example, what life looks like from my perspective.
00;33;55;04 - 00;33;55;18
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right.
00;33;55;18 - 00;34;26;12
Joshua Hoffert
And I think in a way it's the genius of the Holy Spirit was largely in the in the book of acts, communicated from one person to another by the laying on of hands personally, relationally. There's a few and there's a few times where that doesn't happen. But the overwhelming amount of times is it's much it's very much a I mean, put the hands on you and you're going to receive something from me, you're going to see it in me, you're going to witness it in me, and then you're going to see it playing out in yourself.
00;34;26;12 - 00;34;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right? It's it's like the genius ness of God in how he how how the kind of the gospel spreads, not from big public platforms, but from person to person. Right. And and you see all these interactions, right? You're thinking.
00;34;42;18 - 00;34;43;13
Ken Hoffert
Of.
00;34;43;15 - 00;34;50;01
Joshua Hoffert
was it Peter and James by the gate? Beautiful, right. Got so silver and gold that we none. Right. They stop and talk to this guy.
00;34;50;04 - 00;34;50;24
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;34;50;26 - 00;34;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
And you've got this personal engagement.
00;34;52;25 - 00;34;55;26
Ken Hoffert
Then they connect the other and they grab his hand.
00;34;56;03 - 00;34;57;24
Ken Hoffert
And exactly, exactly.
00;34;57;24 - 00;35;07;09
Joshua Hoffert
And come with us. Right. And so this is radical transformation because now we're not we're we're over. We're overwriting the initial response circuits and.
00;35;07;09 - 00;35;10;22
Ken Hoffert
Starting to show you a different way. Yeah. Right. Right.
00;35;10;24 - 00;35;17;14
Ken Hoffert
And it's a powerful thing. It's, it's it's life giving when it's applied correctly.
00;35;17;17 - 00;35;18;22
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;35;18;24 - 00;35;34;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And it, it it so it has to start with a reordered attachment. And and that can, that can happen over. It can happen in your adulthood. Your attachment center can be healed because you're attached to good loving people.
00;35;34;26 - 00;35;55;17
Ken Hoffert
Right. And that's the thing we're looking for people that are that, that have in some capacity and maybe not everything in their life, but in right in those areas of their life that I need growth in. I'm seeing somebody who is more mature. They've walked through this already. Right. And, and I, I connect myself to those to those people.
00;35;55;19 - 00;35;55;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;35;55;29 - 00;36;07;25
Ken Hoffert
So that I can walk with them and learn how to be something that I'm not presently. And so how does that happen? It's because we get we get to that place where we see things the same.
00;36;07;27 - 00;36;11;28
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah. yeah.
00;36;11;29 - 00;36;16;02
Joshua Hoffert
Well, so we've talked about fast track and slow track.
00;36;16;04 - 00;36;18;14
Ken Hoffert
we've talked about the, the.
00;36;18;16 - 00;36;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
The chair. Well, let's, let's dive a little bit into developing mutual mind. What is mutual.
00;36;23;15 - 00;36;26;14
Ken Hoffert
Mind. and you.
00;36;26;14 - 00;36;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
Want to start off off on that one, pops.
00;36;29;02 - 00;36;32;22
Ken Hoffert
For. So, yeah.
00;36;32;23 - 00;36;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
You brought it up first off.
00;36;34;01 - 00;36;59;18
Ken Hoffert
So what okay, I'm going to I'm going to use something that is the negative of that. But I was reading I was reading it and and again, back in Second Thessalonians and in the message and it talks about the. So I've always read there was a reason that caught my attention was we always talk about the Antichrist.
00;36;59;20 - 00;37;10;02
Ken Hoffert
But in the in this section of the message, he calls it the anarchist, which I thought, okay, okay. So anarchy is the opposite of peace.
00;37;10;05 - 00;37;11;03
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;37;11;05 - 00;37;38;20
Ken Hoffert
And peace is that place where there is nothing, between there's nothing negative between us. And we can walk down the same road together and we are connected and have a relationship. Are relationships are restored and healthy. But when there's anarchy, then, then you we are putting roadblocks up in every capacity, every way that we can. And it's this interesting thing that.
00;37;38;23 - 00;38;15;10
Ken Hoffert
But, Paul wrote about this anarchist in Second Thessalonians was that I said he'll defy and then take over every so-called God or alter and then make it his own right. And so this is this thing that's being that's being released, right? And I thought about that. I thought, well, the whole point of that is to so overwhelm worship in our lives that someone else owns that place, which is a very powerful place for human beings.
00;38;15;12 - 00;38;49;03
Ken Hoffert
Right? Worship is that place that, is reserved for the creator. But if someone else can take it over, then they've diverted everything. They've they diverted the very core of, of the, the, of what a human being is supposed to be. Right. And so when I say that is that if we get into a mind state with something that is less than who we are supposed to be right, then we will see things that are destructive, right, and damaging.
00;38;49;06 - 00;39;14;29
Ken Hoffert
And so it's very important if we are to connect in a what we call a mutual mind state that we connect with that which are people that are healthy, growing in maturity, have peace, have, and have at the very core. And this is a this is why, you see this so central in, in all of the writings of the New Testament, it has to be based in love.
00;39;15;02 - 00;39;15;18
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;39;15;21 - 00;39;39;27
Ken Hoffert
That that agape love thing that was that, that that is written about where I, I don't I don't see you in a way that says I have to be afraid of you and I have to reject you, but I see you in a way that says, I care for you whether you're strong or weak. Right. And I and I will walk with you in either of those states.
00;39;39;29 - 00;40;04;01
Ken Hoffert
And, and how do we get there? We have to we get there by beginning to be, first of all, we have healthy attachments. We that's been healed in us. A lot of the trauma that gets in the way is being healed in us, and we're able to then trust. And once I can get into a place of trust and it's and it is a process, but it's not an overwhelming process.
00;40;04;04 - 00;40;28;08
Ken Hoffert
It's just we need to walk in it. It once I can get into a place of trust, then I can begin to both listen to you and see what you're seeing and when. When that begins to happen, then, we begin to see things in a similar fashion and that that creates peace, because there's not a lot of things that are hindering the way that we walk together.
00;40;28;10 - 00;40;35;06
Ken Hoffert
So he says, as a very composite portion of a mutual mind state.
00;40;35;08 - 00;40;37;13
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, absolutely.
00;40;37;15 - 00;40;40;22
Joshua Hoffert
And you can it's an easy way to understand it, too.
00;40;40;23 - 00;40;42;17
Ken Hoffert
Is,
00;40;42;20 - 00;40;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Your ability if you've been married for any length of time, your ability to predict what your spouse's response is going to be to a certain situation, or maybe, maybe if you're driving home from work and you know, I think I think my spouse would probably appreciate it if I stopped at the store and picked her up.
00;40;57;29 - 00;41;00;07
Ken Hoffert
This or him up, this, whatever.
00;41;00;07 - 00;41;14;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right now, you're because you've spent time with the person, because there's trust and peace in the relationship. You share a mutual mind and you know the kind of things that that person is about. And but that's time spent and loving attachment.
00;41;14;19 - 00;41;18;00
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right. And,
00;41;18;03 - 00;41;28;01
Joshua Hoffert
That and actually, the mutual my, the, the portion of the brain that is responsible for mutual mind, the cingulate cortex is also the emotional regulation center of the.
00;41;28;01 - 00;41;28;25
Ken Hoffert
Brain.
00;41;28;27 - 00;41;29;10
Ken Hoffert
00;41;29;10 - 00;41;54;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so the ability to regulate emotions comes because we're able to have a secure attachment and, and know who our people are and share a mutual mind so that in the, in the cingulate cortex is where you find what's called mirror neurons. and so what a, what a mirror neuron does is when I look at, well, here's how they discovered them.
00;41;54;10 - 00;41;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
First off, because it makes.
00;41;55;17 - 00;41;57;18
Ken Hoffert
Sense when you think of how they discovered,
00;41;57;21 - 00;41;58;18
Joshua Hoffert
They were studying.
00;41;58;18 - 00;41;59;19
Ken Hoffert
Monkeys.
00;41;59;22 - 00;42;22;18
Joshua Hoffert
And the brains of monkeys. And what they noticed in experiments were, was that the a monkey that was eating a banana and a monkey that was watching the monkey eat a banana, had a brain pattern that was identical. So the monkey watching, the monkey eating it, its brain literally fired in the same way as the monkey.
00;42;22;21 - 00;42;24;05
Ken Hoffert
Eating the banana.
00;42;24;07 - 00;42;28;08
Joshua Hoffert
And that started that was. And this has only been, you know, this is.
00;42;28;08 - 00;42;28;25
Ken Hoffert
A.
00;42;28;28 - 00;42;31;18
Joshua Hoffert
Kind of hot off the press in terms of understanding the brain.
00;42;31;18 - 00;42;32;18
Ken Hoffert
We're talking.
00;42;32;21 - 00;42;36;08
Joshua Hoffert
You know, these experiments were in the I think in 94, if I remember right.
00;42;36;08 - 00;42;39;00
Ken Hoffert
It's been a while since I studied it.
00;42;39;02 - 00;42;56;28
Joshua Hoffert
So it's not we're not this is this isn't stuff that's been around for hundreds of years. The understanding right. We're just starting to understand these things. And so you're there's a portion of your brain, a significant portion of your brain that is designed to reflect the environment around you. And and then you can think of it so much.
00;42;56;28 - 00;43;26;09
Joshua Hoffert
So and this is actually something Bessel van der Kolk says in his book The Body Keeps the Score. Is that because of, mirror neurons, humans are basically only humans within the context of other humans. And and so if you think about it, I as a human being can only speak of my, being and personhood in relationship to, in relation to other beings.
00;43;26;11 - 00;43;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, so if I try and write like if I was to try and describe to you what I'm like, right, I, I it's, it would be almost impossible to use language to describe myself without characterizing that in, in light of the people around me. Right. If I'm a loving person, if I see myself as a loving person, right?
00;43;47;19 - 00;43;56;10
Joshua Hoffert
That means that I'm I. When I respond to the people around me, I'm a love I, I'm I'm describing myself in light of the surrounding environment.
00;43;56;10 - 00;43;57;22
Ken Hoffert
Of who I'm around. Right? Yeah.
00;43;57;23 - 00;44;01;14
Joshua Hoffert
So, so a a and I think that's actually.
00;44;01;14 - 00;44;03;06
Ken Hoffert
A,
00;44;03;08 - 00;44;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
Probably a way just getting philosophical for a second of how we reflect the nature of our creator God in Trinity, constantly aware of himself, witnessing himself.
00;44;14;12 - 00;44;16;09
Ken Hoffert
And, and, you.
00;44;16;09 - 00;44;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Know, the mirror neurons of a human only able to define myself in relationship to others. When you start pulling apart some of the theories of the Trinity, father and son, identical in nature, co-equal, you're like, well, the only the only identified in light of the other, right? A father can only be a father if he has a son, and the son can only be a son if he has a father.
00;44;38;15 - 00;44;39;10
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right.
00;44;39;13 - 00;44;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
So so it's like, oh, actually, there's kind of a.
00;44;42;28 - 00;44;43;05
Ken Hoffert
In.
00;44;43;05 - 00;45;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
A in a way, when you think of the Trinity, the, the way the human mind works, actually kind of, reflects that. Yeah. So, so mirror neurons, neurons are your, your ability to find identity and meaning and purpose and value in relation to other people. So if you smile at me, my brain smiles.
00;45;03;24 - 00;45;05;12
Ken Hoffert
Back at you. Right?
00;45;05;15 - 00;45;12;05
Joshua Hoffert
It just happens. My brain will respond, right. And so the more time I spend with you, the more acclimatized.
00;45;12;05 - 00;45;13;14
Ken Hoffert
To you I am.
00;45;13;16 - 00;45;32;05
Joshua Hoffert
And the more I understand who you are and the more I'm in sync with you. So this is developing mutual mind. It's a very function of the brain. It's a function of the cingulate cortex. All right. When I have mutual mind, you end up on the chair of my mind when I. Now I'm confronted with situations. And so you stand there, right?
00;45;32;05 - 00;45;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
My dad does stand there because I love my dad.
00;45;35;06 - 00;45;36;28
Ken Hoffert
I love you, too. Yeah.
00;45;37;00 - 00;45;54;07
Joshua Hoffert
you sit on the chair and immediately when, you know, for instance, I've thought about this a number of times, and Aaron and I have talked about it when we're raising our kids, I, I almost, almost automatically think, what? How did my dad do this?
00;45;54;10 - 00;45;55;14
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;45;55;16 - 00;46;20;24
Joshua Hoffert
Doesn't necessarily mean I always agree with what you did, but yeah, but it's there, right? Because we have mutual mind. And and so the loving attachment feeds my response, which enables me to put a, the healthy people around me on the chair. And so now I'm able to start regulating my emotions. And then that starts feeding right back down into my amygdala and my thalamus.
00;46;21;01 - 00;46;33;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so because I find loving, supportive people around me and I start to learn what trust is like, even the most broken down attachment center can be totally healed.
00;46;33;09 - 00;46;36;03
Ken Hoffert
Because I've got you around me.
00;46;36;05 - 00;46;55;05
Joshua Hoffert
And so then, in the context of the spiritual life, what we see is we see Jesus on the chair. Yeah, we start to develop a loving attachment with God. And because salvation is a new attachment with the father, right? It's a secure attachment with the father. This is this is throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament we.
00;46;55;05 - 00;46;56;19
Ken Hoffert
Can characterize it that way.
00;46;56;22 - 00;47;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
Salvation is a new attachment with the father. I'm starting to learn to trust, and he's starting to put people.
00;47;03;06 - 00;47;04;19
Ken Hoffert
On that chair.
00;47;04;19 - 00;47;06;06
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm starting to see him on that.
00;47;06;06 - 00;47;06;20
Ken Hoffert
Chair.
00;47;06;26 - 00;47;22;25
Joshua Hoffert
And so this is the what we could call the process of sanctification is the process of growing in mutual mind with our creator, so that he's sitting on the chair and we're reflecting him because our mirror neurons are designed to see him or to see others, and then they're reflected.
00;47;23;00 - 00;47;25;18
Ken Hoffert
Back to us.
00;47;25;21 - 00;47;46;24
Ken Hoffert
So just because I know that somebody is going to ask this question in their brain, yeah. but what about the Holy Spirit? So, John very clearly says, Jesus says, and John, John writes this down. He calls and he says, I'm going to send you the friend.
00;47;46;26 - 00;47;48;23
Ken Hoffert
Right. Exactly. And once.
00;47;48;24 - 00;47;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right.
00;47;49;29 - 00;47;52;09
Ken Hoffert
You can't be a friend unless you are a friend.
00;47;52;12 - 00;47;53;16
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.
00;47;53;19 - 00;47;56;18
Ken Hoffert
So here's the friend.
00;47;56;20 - 00;47;58;07
Joshua Hoffert
That we're learning to be friends.
00;47;58;12 - 00;48;19;02
Ken Hoffert
Exactly. So yeah. So here's that same connection point that that, is significant. the ultimate friend is teaching us how to be friends with one another because he, he is the friend of God and God. so it said that weird way of saying things. The ultimate friend.
00;48;19;04 - 00;48;20;20
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.
00;48;20;22 - 00;48;24;26
Ken Hoffert
teaches us to to live in that sort of relationship as well.
00;48;24;26 - 00;48;40;09
Joshua Hoffert
So and actually and John 16, Jesus literally says, the Holy Spirit is going to remind you, right, of all that I've taught you, right? He's going to teach you even more, but he's going to constantly bring to mind my words.
00;48;40;15 - 00;49;04;26
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. And he's going to take the things of me that he hear, and of the father and of the father. So he's he's in interacting with the father and the sons and, and interacting with us. And it's that that unique relationship that teaches us to be. So how how do we get this mutual mind with God? We have a gift.
00;49;04;28 - 00;49;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
The Holy Spirit.
00;49;05;20 - 00;49;12;14
Ken Hoffert
The Holy Spirit. That's right. That is a friend that teaches us how to have that mutual mind. And it's the promise of Jesus.
00;49;12;16 - 00;49;35;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's I think it's. E.W. Kenyon says that the role of the Holy Spirit is to form the father's image in the in the inner person. Right, right. Which really is if and this is like E.W. Kenyon with the 78 years ago. Yeah. That this is before maybe even longer. This is before anybody understood mirror neurons or mutual mind or anything in the sense of the scientific advancement of it.
00;49;35;19 - 00;49;53;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. And obviously, you know, John writes the book of John in the first century. So we're looking at it now. I'm going, well, duh, of course, that's the way the brain works, right? Yeah, that makes the most sense. The Holy Spirit is developing mutual mind with the Godhead. That's what the Holy Spirit's doing is. Here's a mutual mind.
00;49;53;24 - 00;50;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
Here's the father and the son there. Like this. Let me put them on your chair. Right. And sensitizing you tenderizing you, making you tender to his presence. And you're like, oh, I started to fine. Well.
00;50;03;12 - 00;50;24;24
Ken Hoffert
And then if you think about that, yeah, you think about that. And there's reasons that you don't grieve the Holy Spirit because you don't want to push that mutual mind away from yourself so that you're not learning, you're not growing. If I if I am pushing those things away, then I will add that I'm not getting closer to the father in the son, which is what transforms me.
00;50;24;27 - 00;50;33;26
Ken Hoffert
It's it's that again, secure attachment. Right? Because what is salvation and it's very core is being.
00;50;33;26 - 00;50;34;05
Joshua Hoffert
Secure.
00;50;34;05 - 00;50;38;23
Ken Hoffert
Attached as securely attached to the creator who is our father.
00;50;38;26 - 00;50;54;26
Joshua Hoffert
That actually the it's what is it? Psalm 60 6160 where it says, I wait patiently, patiently on the father for my help is from him, or wait patiently on God. The the word for.
00;50;54;29 - 00;50;55;12
Ken Hoffert
I think it's.
00;50;55;12 - 00;50;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
The word for wait patiently. I think.
00;50;56;26 - 00;50;57;25
Ken Hoffert
That's what it is.
00;50;57;28 - 00;51;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
Literally means the cord of attachment. It's literally the meaning of the Hebrew, right? I am securely attached with him and therefore I'm at peace.
00;51;08;12 - 00;51;09;23
Ken Hoffert
I can I can be at peace, right?
00;51;09;24 - 00;51;21;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's what it's saying. That's what like when you start to pull apart the meaning of it, you understand what we're looking at here. We're going, oh my goodness. Like this all makes sense in the light of how the brain works.
00;51;21;09 - 00;51;31;14
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. Like what Jesus said to his disciples, he said, I am giving you my peace. Right? And it's not like what you're going to get anywhere.
00;51;31;14 - 00;51;32;09
Ken Hoffert
Else, right?
00;51;32;11 - 00;51;50;23
Ken Hoffert
Right. It's not like the world gives, but it's not the kind of peace you get somewhere else, right? It's a peace that is securely attached to the one who created you, so that you can be be at rest, right? And have patience and have and have trust.
00;51;50;26 - 00;51;51;18
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;51;51;21 - 00;51;55;26
Ken Hoffert
Because that sort of peace brings about trust.
00;51;55;28 - 00;51;58;26
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. That and, you.
00;51;58;26 - 00;51;59;19
Joshua Hoffert
Know, we've said.
00;51;59;21 - 00;52;00;16
Ken Hoffert
00;52;00;18 - 00;52;04;25
Joshua Hoffert
In the past that the Lord's Prayer reflects every one of the levels.
00;52;04;27 - 00;52;05;21
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, right.
00;52;05;21 - 00;52;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
Who all for this level? Level three. it's forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
00;52;12;19 - 00;52;13;10
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;52;13;13 - 00;52;15;16
Joshua Hoffert
This is who are my people?
00;52;15;16 - 00;52;16;14
Ken Hoffert
And how do we act?
00;52;16;22 - 00;52;19;21
Ken Hoffert
I let go, and I and I and exactly go. Right?
00;52;19;23 - 00;52;20;28
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00;52;20;28 - 00;52;31;28
Joshua Hoffert
So when the father and Paul says this, right, that you're extending forgiveness that you didn't deserve, but you were given. And so just the way the father's interacted with you, you interact with others.
00;52;31;28 - 00;52;32;27
Ken Hoffert
The same way. Right?
00;52;33;00 - 00;52;56;09
Joshua Hoffert
This is mutual mind transformation of the inner man. So now forgiveness when, when, when God is on the chair and Jesus or the Holy Spirit will say is going, look at Jesus, right? He's on your chair now, my natural response, not my not the response I have to fight with, but my natural stance is starting to become more and more.
00;52;56;13 - 00;52;58;07
Ken Hoffert
That place of forgiveness, right?
00;52;58;07 - 00;53;02;27
Joshua Hoffert
I actually forgive much quicker because now I'm.
00;53;03;03 - 00;53;05;08
Ken Hoffert
I'm the the.
00;53;05;08 - 00;53;13;29
Joshua Hoffert
The layer two and layer one are being infiltrated by layer three and layer one, the secure attachment. The father is infiltrating layer two and layer three.
00;53;13;29 - 00;53;16;12
Ken Hoffert
Right. All right. So it's it's it's going back and forth.
00;53;16;12 - 00;53;18;02
Ken Hoffert
So things are calming down.
00;53;18;04 - 00;53;18;15
Joshua Hoffert
Things are.
00;53;18;15 - 00;53;26;05
Ken Hoffert
Calming down. And now I'm hurt by someone and I'm quicker to forgive because that's what my people do.
00;53;26;08 - 00;53;28;07
Ken Hoffert
Yeah I'm not spun out for four days.
00;53;28;10 - 00;53;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And then I start to become a person that people look at. Right. And then that same way the Holy Spirit is given by the laying on of hands, one person to the next. I start to become that next person that shows. What does it look like to be with the father, to develop.
00;53;42;18 - 00;53;45;08
Ken Hoffert
Mutual minded, to look like the father? Right? Right.
00;53;45;08 - 00;54;08;18
Ken Hoffert
So how many times have we seen somebody who gets hurt or harmed in some fashion, and every conversation they have for the next week is about how upset they are about this, and they keep retelling the story over and over again because they're revisiting the pain and they can't get past that right. And they can't let it go.
00;54;08;18 - 00;54;33;01
Ken Hoffert
They can't. They have no peace about. And it's and and their words get louder and faster and whatever it is. But as we're coming to a place of peace that goes away. Right. And we don't have to be stuck in pain. Right. And rejection and the, the implications of someone who has hurt me, which is pain and rejection and.
00;54;33;03 - 00;55;04;03
Ken Hoffert
Right. And it just opens up traumas and that have already been existent. And, and as we connect with the father in that, in that way and it's not some, some, oh, what would you call it? it's not a process that makes no sense. Sure. Yeah, it is a it is a it is something that's done in community, in relationship and it's not done.
00;55;04;04 - 00;55;26;10
Ken Hoffert
You can't just go out and be a, you know, live on an island and right, all of a sudden become perfect. Right. even as you know now, I know we haven't talked a lot about these, and, but the Desert Fathers didn't leave and go on to, write all by themselves that a community formed around them, which tends to be how transformation takes place.
00;55;26;13 - 00;55;27;24
Ken Hoffert
And so it takes place.
00;55;27;24 - 00;55;32;25
Ken Hoffert
That's a community as we begin to learn to love.
00;55;32;28 - 00;55;34;14
Ken Hoffert
And and.
00;55;34;16 - 00;55;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
In regards to the Desert Fathers, which we will talk about more later. And you can find more.
00;55;38;17 - 00;55;44;12
Ken Hoffert
On, our YouTube channel and our website. about the Desert Fathers.
00;55;44;18 - 00;55;46;26
Joshua Hoffert
They developed practices that.
00;55;46;26 - 00;55;56;25
Ken Hoffert
Facilitated this stuff right? They did. They really did. They they had good practices that helped, to help make this happen.
00;55;57;02 - 00;55;59;19
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's interesting, I was thinking when you were sharing.
00;55;59;19 - 00;56;01;08
Ken Hoffert
That, you were saying the example of the.
00;56;01;08 - 00;56;05;22
Joshua Hoffert
Person who's been hurt and spends all week reliving their hurt and.
00;56;05;22 - 00;56;08;00
Ken Hoffert
Talking about it. Right. Well, I, I.
00;56;08;00 - 00;56;11;05
Joshua Hoffert
Would hazard a guess that the person has an insecure.
00;56;11;05 - 00;56;19;22
Ken Hoffert
Attachment. Right? Right. And you know, hypothetically, I'm not thinking about anywhere in particular hypothetically insecure attachment.
00;56;19;24 - 00;56;20;13
Joshua Hoffert
There in.
00;56;20;19 - 00;56;21;17
Ken Hoffert
00;56;21;19 - 00;56;23;14
Joshua Hoffert
Probably in fight or flight mode.
00;56;23;17 - 00;56;25;27
Ken Hoffert
They're stuck there. Right. And so.
00;56;26;04 - 00;56;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
The because of the insecure attachment and they're stuck in fight or.
00;56;29;03 - 00;56;30;03
Ken Hoffert
Flight mode.
00;56;30;05 - 00;56;40;11
Joshua Hoffert
There's nobody on their chair. Right. They're gone. And and there's the that's where the insecurity is. I'm telling everybody about it because I'm trying to find someone to put on the chair.
00;56;40;14 - 00;56;42;19
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. And I can't find someone to put on the chair.
00;56;42;22 - 00;56;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. And then you get maybe the wise person who's been through a few things goes, okay, well, let's.
00;56;47;08 - 00;56;48;03
Ken Hoffert
Talk about this.
00;56;48;03 - 00;56;49;10
Joshua Hoffert
And all of a sudden someone starts.
00;56;49;10 - 00;56;51;04
Ken Hoffert
To get on that chair. Yeah.
00;56;51;06 - 00;56;52;24
Joshua Hoffert
And the response.
00;56;52;24 - 00;56;56;11
Ken Hoffert
Starts to change slowly with time, but but.
00;56;56;17 - 00;57;08;05
Ken Hoffert
Realistic. Remember years ago I was I had gone through a really difficult time and, and I was telling my story. I was hurt and I was telling my story for a long time.
00;57;08;07 - 00;57;08;18
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;57;08;24 - 00;57;20;23
Ken Hoffert
Same story. And, I ran into a friend that I hadn't seen in a while, and I started telling my story and said, you know, that's the same story you told me last time we got together.
00;57;20;25 - 00;57;21;12
Joshua Hoffert
Ouch.
00;57;21;12 - 00;57;44;03
Ken Hoffert
And it was eye opening, and I realized, I, I have to get out of this loop. Yeah, and I did, but, thankfully it was somebody who was. And it wasn't somebody who I was real close to, but he was just an honest kind of person and a caring person. And, and, you know, so it's the same story you told me last time.
00;57;44;05 - 00;57;46;16
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. It's time to get rid of that story.
00;57;46;18 - 00;57;55;25
Ken Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah. So let's get out of the loop. Yes. And and that's, you know, talking all around that stuff. That's what we're talking about is helping people get around.
00;57;55;25 - 00;58;00;05
Joshua Hoffert
They're all right. So finding.
00;58;00;07 - 00;58;00;20
Ken Hoffert
a a.
00;58;00;20 - 00;58;03;15
Joshua Hoffert
Finding a loving community.
00;58;03;17 - 00;58;04;03
Ken Hoffert
00;58;04;03 - 00;58;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
Practicing.
00;58;05;00 - 00;58;07;13
Ken Hoffert
And we know that's not always it's not always.
00;58;07;13 - 00;58;08;20
Ken Hoffert
Easy.
00;58;08;23 - 00;58;14;07
Joshua Hoffert
Finding people that are at least one just they just have to be one step further along on the journey than.
00;58;14;07 - 00;58;14;23
Ken Hoffert
You.
00;58;14;26 - 00;58;15;07
Ken Hoffert
Know, to.
00;58;15;07 - 00;58;19;05
Ken Hoffert
Walk with and to share your life with that can weigh in on your life.
00;58;19;08 - 00;58;21;28
Joshua Hoffert
Prayerful practices that put the father directly.
00;58;21;28 - 00;58;22;28
Ken Hoffert
In front of you.
00;58;23;00 - 00;58;23;24
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;58;23;26 - 00;58;27;15
Joshua Hoffert
meditative practices on Scripture that put Jesus and His nature.
00;58;27;15 - 00;58;28;11
Ken Hoffert
Right in front of you.
00;58;28;11 - 00;58;28;29
Ken Hoffert
Right?
00;58;29;02 - 00;58;30;14
Ken Hoffert
Right.
00;58;30;16 - 00;58;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
these are the kind of practices that really help facilitate.
00;58;33;15 - 00;58;35;26
Ken Hoffert
Actual growth and transformation.
00;58;35;28 - 00;58;44;07
Joshua Hoffert
And then along the way, you read a book that gives you some insight. you know, you participated in a book study and you feel seen and known and heard, which is what people really want.
00;58;44;07 - 00;58;48;13
Ken Hoffert
Right? Paul says that actually another way that you can tie all this in is.
00;58;48;13 - 00;58;51;11
Joshua Hoffert
Paul in first Corinthians 13 says, now we know in part, but then.
00;58;51;11 - 00;58;52;25
Ken Hoffert
Will be known and fully know.
00;58;53;02 - 00;59;02;10
Joshua Hoffert
We fully known, right? It's like this, this whole human being desires to be fully known, right? The human being desires to be fully integrated. A whole brained person that don't.
00;59;02;10 - 00;59;04;24
Ken Hoffert
Want to be rejected. I want I don't want it, I accept it.
00;59;04;27 - 00;59;09;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. I don't want to be the way that I am. I want to be perfectly at rest.
00;59;09;06 - 00;59;10;23
Ken Hoffert
In peace with myself. Right?
00;59;10;25 - 00;59;18;05
Joshua Hoffert
Prayerful practices, loving community, spiritual fathers and mothers weighing in on your life, friends to support you.
00;59;18;05 - 00;59;18;28
Ken Hoffert
And understand you.
00;59;18;28 - 00;59;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
These are these are tried and true methods to produce spiritual maturity. Yeah. And they will they don't they don't feel yeah, people fail. But those those that kind of.
00;59;28;28 - 00;59;32;00
Ken Hoffert
Process because it is what that's what human.
00;59;32;00 - 00;59;33;16
Joshua Hoffert
Beings require to produce.
00;59;33;17 - 00;59;34;24
Ken Hoffert
A.
00;59;34;26 - 00;59;36;19
Joshua Hoffert
a Jesus centered person.
00;59;36;21 - 00;59;38;18
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. So. Well,
00;59;38;20 - 00;59;42;11
Joshua Hoffert
Dad, this has been another good conversation.
00;59;42;14 - 00;59;43;23
Ken Hoffert
we hope that's been,
00;59;43;26 - 01;00;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we hope that anybody that's listening that you've greatly benefited from this. If you have any questions, feel free to shoot us an email. put a review in your podcasting platform. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, you can comment and we'd love to address that.
01;00;00;16 - 01;00;07;14
Ken Hoffert
I know some of you have been, commenting on the videos, and so they've been really helpful. So, we'd like your feedback. That's very helpful for us.
01;00;07;15 - 01;00;13;15
Joshua Hoffert
And, and creates a mutual mind, which, you know, helps us to continue that.
01;00;13;17 - 01;00;16;28
Ken Hoffert
So, until next time, everybody. God bless.
01;00;16;29 - 01;00;43;15
Ken Hoffert
I'll see you.
01;00;43;18 - 01;00;43;29
Ken Hoffert
Maybe.