WEBVTT
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:12.240
Hello, and welcome to the Why Humans Podcast, where we talk about the very human reasons people are turning to AI.
00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:15.279
My name is Adam Dodge, and I am the founder of NTAB.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:17.120
My name is Sloane Thompson.
00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.039
I am the director of education and AI initiatives at NTAB.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:26.800
I'd like to say that I was just struck by inspiration to do this episode.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:29.519
But the reality is, this isn't all Sloan.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.280
She has been, yeah, I mean, this is the creativity episode.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.799
And she was, I think, engaging in a little bit of creative thought when she came up with this.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.039
But Sloan, why are we doing this episode?
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:50.000
I feel like it's something we maybe haven't talked about a ton, or it's not something that's been on our wish list for a long time, but it's really, I think you've had some a little bit of urgency around this.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.679
What's what is like sort of driving your interest in this one?
00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:55.439
Well, I think a few different things.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:08.959
One is there's a growing body of surveying that's happening around all people, but specifically young people, about how they feel about AI, what they like about it, what they don't like about it.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:20.159
And one thing that I'm beginning to hear over and over again about college-age students and younger is that they actually feel like they're chained to AI.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.400
They feel like they have to use it because if they don't, they're falling behind.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:31.680
They're not going to get jobs, they're not going to get good grades because everyone else in their class is using AI to inflate their GPAs, all of this stuff.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:43.519
But even though they are now using it, they they're genuinely worried about how it's affecting them and what it's costing them to use it all the time.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:48.959
And one thing that they're saying over and over again is it's making them dumber.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.120
And that's their that's their biggest concern.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.680
It's actually compromising their ability to think.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:55.359
And this is something that we've talked about.
00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:06.079
You know, when we're talking about flirting, when we're talking about emotional intelligence development, but there's this other facet of human thinking beyond just cognitive processing.
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:07.599
And that's creativity.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:17.039
And creativity is something so specific, and it's something that is so integral to the human experience and human flourishing.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:18.560
So I think we have to talk about it.
00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:22.719
I think it's its own subject outside of intelligence, and we have to talk about it.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.319
So that's, and also I'm a theater person and I just I love creativity.
00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:31.439
I just creativity, so I just want to talk about it.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:33.599
So but you make a good point.
00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:37.199
Thank you for holding back on your theater dorkdom until the end.
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:39.120
But you make a good point, right?
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:47.599
Like I think a lot of people think creativity and they think like artistry, being an artist of some kind, but like creativity is it's like integral to who we are.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:57.599
We can be creative in our relationships, we can be creative in how we do our jobs, uh, you know, if you're in school, like how you make your way through academia.
00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:14.639
Like it's it's pretty, I would say, and I bring this up too because I feel like if you were to ask me to bet my life savings on whether like creatives, people are like artists, love or hate AI on the whole, I would say they hate it.
00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:34.159
Like I feel like most people I talk to really low that that are painters or artists or musicians, you know, actors, people are really don't have a great relationship to AI when it comes to creative license and the work that they do.
00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:39.360
But I think that's red herring is the wrong term.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:55.520
But I feel like we're shining a very bright light on Hollywood and the music industry and all these things when we talk about creativity, but it's actually way more accessible and I think under attack a little bit for us all.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.159
And it's really, I think, important for students.
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:05.759
What well, I mean, I'll ask you like a question you can't possibly answer like quickly, but like, can AI be creative?
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:15.360
I mean, if I presumably people think so if they're worried about it displacing them in these areas of sort of the artistic world.
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.160
Well, and I think it's good to start off.
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.079
I'm glad that we're starting off with that question.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:30.399
Because to your point about actors and writers and musicians, what their fears are around AI, there's two different avenues for those fears.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:38.639
One would be that their work is going to be stolen, degraded, you know, something, their likeness is going to be used.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.600
And so it's it's kind of an intellectual property rights argument.
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:47.839
How is AI taking what they're doing and either making something new or worst case scenario, making it worse?
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:49.680
That's a legal question.
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.959
But then there's the other question there.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:04.079
If you let AI, which is trained on human data, if you let AI kind of just cook, is what it creates going to be better than what a human being could create?
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:12.480
And if so, what does that mean for where our society is going that suddenly we are just our creative fields are supplanted by AI?
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.720
So to your point, can AI be creative?
00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.240
It's kind of an esoteric question, but it's also kind of a very practical question.
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:31.040
I read this article in the Atlantic by Jasmine Sun, and the article is titled The Human Skill That Eludes AI.
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:36.480
And she, as a writer, is talking about can AI write creatively?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.319
And her her argument is no, it can't.
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.639
But she gives this really interesting example of GPT two.
00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.560
So chat GPT, their number two version, their second version.
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:56.959
And she was talking about how that version is kind of famous for giving really unexpected answers.
00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:03.040
And so she gives an example of she gives the prompt continue this story.
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:08.879
And it starts, the man decided to take a shower, and GBT2 answered.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.879
And in the shower, he was eating his lemon and thinking about his wife.
00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:14.560
Now, you could say that.
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:15.600
Who hasn't been there?
00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:16.480
Who hasn't been there?
00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.279
We're just having our shower lemons like we do.
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:20.639
Shower lemons.
00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:28.879
But I have read like high literature, and yeah, that kind of stuff happens.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:34.959
And it's a combination of it is so unexpected and it's so unique.
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.040
And it it just immediately grabs your attention.
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.560
And so she was saying that yes, older models tended to do this.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.600
Now, ChatGBT 5 will not do this.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:59.839
I ran the same experiment on the latest version of ChatGPT, and the story that it gave me was very much the beginning to what could become like a middle of the range buy it at a grocery store mystery novel.
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:06.800
So, yeah, it came up with new words in a story, but no, it didn't impress me with its unique creativity.
00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:08.000
So, yeah, I don't know.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:09.120
I think Can I just interrupt?
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:10.240
Can I just interrupt really quick?
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:14.879
Are you are you saying that you can't get a good novel at a grocery store?
00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.279
Because that's a hot take that I wasn't that that caught me off guard.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:24.240
Are you saying that all novels shown in shoulder grocery stores are just trash?
00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:25.680
Is that is that what you're saying?
00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.199
I don't want to derail this very important topic, but I need to know.
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:30.720
I can't just keep this to myself.
00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.120
I mean, I think that they're formulaic.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.120
And if you like the formula, that's great.
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:36.959
You should absolutely keep doing that formula.
00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:44.240
But it I but it that it's is a type of story that isn't necessarily considered creative.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:52.639
I think in order for it to be creative, there would have to be some sort of unique spin that subverts the genre or just it it it it surprises you in some way.
00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:57.040
Can AI do something that's truly surprising?
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:06.879
And I think there's this other layer where you can surprise someone just by sending word salad at them, but it's surprising in a s in a specific way.
00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:12.079
It's doing something unexpected, but with intention and with meaning.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.680
It has to mean something.
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:20.319
So Adam, do you think AI can have that magical combination of things?
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:36.639
That it's breaking rules or breaking tropes or breaking expectations in some way, but it's doing it with an intention and a specific meaning in mind and clarity to the person who's creating it.
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:37.440
Hmm.
00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.159
I'll give you my lawyerly answer that I like to give a lot.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:41.200
I think it depends.
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.600
Like I think it can get close to that, right?
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.120
I think about okay, so let's talk about what we do for a living, right?
00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:54.799
Like what we do, we're not artists in the traditional sense, but or or or or any sense, really.
00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:03.360
But creativity, I I would argue, is maybe the primary thing that drives the work that we do.
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:13.919
Because it's and I I think it's important to mention this because a lot of people, as I said, I think earlier, like default to like being an artist.
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.240
And it's we all are creative.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.039
Like, how do you how are you creative, right?
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:28.720
Um the way I'm creative, the way I the way I I mean, NTAB was this new idea to do something that had never like didn't really exist.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:35.600
I was solving a problem that I had working with domestic violence survivors is how do I prevent and respond to tech-facilitated abuse?
00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:40.320
And I had to create what I needed because it didn't exist.
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:48.240
And that action has just repeated itself over and over and over again.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:59.440
And when I think about it through sort of my lived experience about what being creative means to me, if I'm going to answer your question now, thinking it through that way.
00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:00.960
No, I don't think it can be.
00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:14.720
I think you when you and I meet to with sort of the express purpose of just being creative and getting into like a flow state together, or when I'm driving and I start coming up with new ideas for the work.
00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:19.360
Like, no, I don't I think that is a uniquely human thing.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:25.440
I think that I could then turn to AI and sort of help expand my thinking on those things.
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:32.559
But I don't know, I'm trying to imagine AI sort of doing that on its own.
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.840
And, you know, we didn't mention this before, but like what does creativity even mean?
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.919
Like, what's a good definition for creativity?
00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:50.879
And one you and I have batted around a little bit is the ability to generate novel, original, and valuable ideas, solutions, or artistic works by connecting disparate concepts through imagination.
00:10:51.440 --> 00:11:00.159
And I think it can help us with this process, but I think the process is uniquely human.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:01.919
And I hope I'm right, right?
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:08.879
Because I the idea that AI could completely supplant creativity makes me sad.
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:09.840
Yeah.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:10.320
Yeah.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:22.639
And I mean, I think that that's maybe what's coming up for me as you're saying that is which disparate points are we connecting?
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:33.679
And what you're talking about with creating in tech, you were create you were connecting dots across different areas.
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:39.200
So you were taking all of this stuff around technology and violence and a specific type of abuse.
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:52.799
But because of your background working in domestic violence shelters, you also had this area of expertise around what advocacy organizations looked like, how law enforcement was operating, current laws.
00:11:53.039 --> 00:12:11.840
And so you were able to connect the tech to the services needed and overlay those together into what became a new business model about, you know, what is this unique type of education that's needed that is basically tech education that's not IT, it's for advocates specifically.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.440
That's how NTAB was born.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.960
When I and so could Chat GPT have come up with that?
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:28.480
Well, I guess it depends on is all of that information in the training data in a way that it could draw upon and make connections.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:44.240
When I think about this story about the man in the shower with his lemon and thinking about his wife, it's drawing creatively on a number of different things, but some of them are uniquely human in a way that's not going to show up in a training data set.
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:49.840
So, for example, what comes up when you think about someone eating a lemon in a shower?
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:50.879
It's confusing.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.639
It's maybe a little bit disgusting.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.639
We have the like, you know, astringent ah of the lemon.
00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:02.799
So it's it's connecting an emotional experience to something very practical and mundane taking a shower.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.759
And so it brings up emotions for the reader.
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:07.440
It has us feel something.
00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.759
That's the point of creativity in art, to make you feel something new.
00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.919
So could the AI just be creative in that way?
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.120
No, because it can't draw on the sorts of feelings that an author is drawing on.
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:22.879
But it was Chad GPT that said it.
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:28.159
It was GPT2 that said it, which leads us to was it just making words salad or did it mean something?
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.399
I think, I think without it being a human, it can't mean what it's saying.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:34.799
So yeah, that was my little journey.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:48.399
But I think there's there are certain parts of human intelligence and human experience that can be drawn on to do something truly creative that doesn't just exist in the training data of written human thought.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:14:03.759
I think we probably should have been talking about creativity more in our work and in these episodes that we've done, because a lot of it is about like if you're outsourcing flirting or small talk, like that's, you know, one, being unique, but also being creative.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:08.960
Like, how am I going to, you know, make this person laugh that doesn't know me, right?
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.879
How am I gonna, you know, in 10 seconds make an impression on this person?
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:14.639
Like that's being creative, right?
00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:22.320
And I think people are turning to AI for those things like I don't want to call like small talk mundane, but like little things in their lives.
00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:29.039
They're turning to AI to be like, what's a what's a good, how can I, you know, what's a fun date night idea, right?
00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:37.600
Like if I start, if we start to sort of bring it down a little bit to like, well, okay, I'm a therapist or I work in prevention education or I work in whatever.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.200
Like, well, how does this create, like, how does this topic show up here?
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.279
And I think what and what happens when it does, right?
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:57.679
Like what do we lose if we start handing the keys to AI to be creative for us?
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:15.120
And in preparing for this episode, you know, what I what I learned is like create creativity is like pretty damn important, you know, and can, you know, is good, you know, does all sorts of like beneficial things, enhances connection.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.279
Like when you and I are creative together, like it's a way to connect with other people.
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.919
It enhances our well-being, it makes us happier.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.120
And I can attest to this.
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:28.159
Like, I feel when I get into a flow state, like I'm generally feeling like life is good, right?
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.159
Like I feel pretty good about it.
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.519
It reduces stress.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.600
Like I feel uniquely me and authentically me.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:49.039
And when I put something out into the world or present to an audience of people with something that is really truly and wholly my own, one that's being, you know, taking a risk and being vulnerable.
00:15:49.440 --> 00:16:01.679
But also like it's however it lands with the audience, like I feel really good about putting something out there that is uniquely creative to me.
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.919
And I worry about what happens.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.799
And we talk about shortcuts on this podcast all the time with AI, using AI to shortcut things.
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.480
And I think creativity requires energy.
00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.399
It's not always you can't just tap into it on demand very easily sometimes.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.639
Sometimes you have to really like work at it.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.720
Sometimes inspiration strikes when you least expect it.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:31.279
But if you have AI sitting there saying, well, this is a tap and you can turn it on and get let's get creative.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.000
Yeah.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:38.320
I was really surprised when I was started thinking through this about, you know, the AI generation of kids growing up.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.480
And I worry about that.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:46.399
Yeah, I listened to a podcast interview with Rebecca Winthrop.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.440
And this was on our favorite podcast, one of our favorite podcasts, Your Undermanned Detention from the Center.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.120
This is my favorite podcast.
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:53.919
This is my favorite.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.279
Come on, Sloan.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.320
But it was specifically they were talking about education.
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:11.279
And they made, she made this connection about domain mastery, how domain mastery is highly coordinated with creative thought and creative problem solving.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:23.599
And what they mean by that is knowing your field, knowing this body of information so well that you are not just able to understand it, but you're able to do something new with it.
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.599
If you don't have domain mastery, then you cannot be creative.
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:39.200
So to your point about what AI is doing in this space, I think it's degrading someone's ability to obtain that domain mastery.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:47.839
Because yes, ChatGPT, Claude, they can serve up facts to you and you can learn more things.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:59.599
But I think that true mastery of a domain, true mastery of an area of a field, you need to do more than just read it one type of way.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.519
It's all these different things.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.799
There's been a big movement to bring back long form reading of physical books.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:17.519
And it's because the research is in reading something on a screen is just fundamentally different from sitting down and holding a book in your hands and reading it.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.319
And part of that, Adam, is what you're saying, flow state.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:27.119
When you're able to just lock in to a physical book for a couple of hours, then it puts you in a different state of mind.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.839
Second of all, you are creating sense memories with the book itself.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:41.039
And the smell of it, remembering the specific page that something was on, all of that, all of that goes into scaffolding the type of knowledge that you're acquiring.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:51.119
So if you're just if when you want to learn something new, you just put in the prompt into the chatbot and it gives you an answer.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:56.799
Yes, you've learned something, but that knowledge isn't rooted in a number of different ways.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:01.440
And this is another reason why at schools, they don't just want kids like reading something from a screen.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.480
They want them to go out and build things and touch things.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:05.599
It's kinetic learning.
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.839
You learn it in a different, deeper way.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:18.640
So if people become overly reliant on Chat GBT to learn their field just by typing in prompts and getting information back, it's the shortcuts that you're talking about.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:29.599
But it also cheapens and flattens the knowledge acquisition itself in a way that is not going to get us to the mastery of the information that is needed for creative thought.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:30.880
That's my concern.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:38.480
And I think that when young people are saying that they're worried about AI making them dumber, I think that that's kind of at the heart of it.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.799
Even if they're getting good grades, right?
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:43.279
Well, they're getting the good grades because the answer is.
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:50.319
Right.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.559
Like it's not, you know what I mean?
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.839
I mean, I just gave a sort of a long form definition of creativity.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:04.799
Don't you have like a shirt somewhere that that you know short makes a little easier recall for us?
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:05.440
Yeah.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.400
My mom gave me a shirt that says, creativity is intelligence having fun.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:11.519
And I love that.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:18.480
I love that because it it it again, it also speaks to this playfulness of creativity, that it's something that it does.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:20.240
It makes you feel good.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.160
It's I think creativity is fun.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.519
It it electrifies you.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.519
It it does connect you with other people.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:29.279
It gives you something that you're so excited to talk to somebody else about.
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:38.799
So yeah, and I I mean, to your point about social networks, that creativity is something that so often is done with other people.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:46.400
We all we've talked so much on this podcast about over reliance on AI deteriorating social networks.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.680
I think that is another thing that deteriorates creativity.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480
What happened to INTAB when I came on board?
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:54.319
Just went down.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.599
It's been downhill ever since, obviously.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.960
No, I mean it's well, like it's helpful.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.799
You and I joke that we like share a brain because we're very similar at the way we do things.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:18.559
And so it's been great to have like a thought partner who sees, you know, is is creative and and and attacks these these issues in a way like creatively that that I do.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.519
And so that's been great, right?
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:45.279
And yeah, it's so funny because I as we're talking through this, I feel like if I'm standing in front of like a middle school class trying to explain why not to use AI to be creative, and then being like, bruh, like, you know, why would I do, why would I, you know, write this like poem or why would I do this when AI is just gonna do a better job anyway, and I don't have to deal with it, right?
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.000
And I don't, and I'm not into poetry, right?
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.000
And so why should I do that?
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.160
And I feel like we all need to be prepared to have this argument.
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.759
And the funny thing is not funny thing, but the familiar thing is that.
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.720
This has nothing to do with AI.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:10.160
Like so much of what we talk about has nothing to do with like understanding how AI is supplanting creativity or disrupting creativity.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.880
It's about understanding creativity, right?
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.640
And why it's important, right?
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.359
And why it helps us connect.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.279
Like we talk about, oh, we're in a loneliness epidemic and all these different things.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:31.680
Well, then we can't be talking about loneliness without talking about creativity and or well-being, right, without talking about creativity.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:38.559
And so, and and I would say to you know, the student that I just made up, it's like, well, you don't even know if you like poetry or not.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.599
Like you have to try it.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.359
Like you'll never know, right?
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.000
Like we all do stuff we don't like, right?
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.799
But you might find out that you do like it, or it might lead you to the other thing.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:23:11.920
I mean, the thing that I have a lot, the the issue that I talk to a lot of people who are going through like career changes is what I'll tell them is, and this is was true for me because I had a lot of careers before I ended up at NTAB, was you know, like everything you do along the way is going to inform like what you end up doing and on some level, right?
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:18.160
The things that you, the tools that you pick up along the way, the times you were creative in those positions, right?
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:24.960
Like to use you as an example, like you were a teacher, you were in theater, you were a preventionist, you were an advocate.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:34.160
Like you, you have done all these different things that has like, and through alchemy, made you like a great fit to do what you're doing now.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:51.200
And I think, and I just, if we're not having these conversations about creativity with people, with this people, kids going through AI adolescence, for example, then I think, and I say this all the time, but then like we're just gonna give the wheel to AI and it's gonna be like, well, we'll do it for you, right?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.039
Like we we'll do anything you want, basically.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:03.759
And so, and including be creative for you and and produce things for you that you could have never done on your own.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.599
It won't be you, right?
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.759
There won't be any of you in it, but you can pass it off as your own, right?
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.880
Just like hiring somebody to write your paper for you, right?
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.160
And if you're cool with that, then you're cool with that.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:22.960
But I want people to at least understand what they're losing or what the what the stakes are before they do that.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:24.640
And I don't think people know that.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:31.200
Well, and I think this is one of those places where breaking down a process is going to be extremely helpful.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:43.920
Because if you're just asking the general question of is AI helping or hurting human creativity, then you're lumping creativity into this one thing.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.440
But as I was listening to you talk about, you know, this hypothetical kid and he wants to write a poem, but no, he doesn't want to write it.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:59.279
He just wants to have a poem that he can then send to somebody else, either a teacher or, you know, another kid that he's trying to impress.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:08.720
What are all the different parts of the creative process that are breaking down when he makes that choice to just get AI to make the poem?
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:15.039
And you're talking about, okay, well, the very beginning of the process, he might not know what poetry is.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.640
He's never experienced poetry.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:22.480
He just knows of it as a thing that sometimes impresses a teacher or a thing that sometimes impresses someone romantically.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:29.359
So he wants what, he wants a poem, but he has no idea of the value of poetry, his specific taste in poetry, any of it.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:30.559
So that's one thing.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:37.359
He has limited his scope of the world and it does not include poetry.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.480
But then there's so there's the curiosity.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.519
You have to know something, and you have to know enough about something to be curious about it.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:26:01.759
For me, for theater, one of the beautiful things about my time as a theater artist is that it developed this deep, deep curiosity about other people, reading stories all the time of different people in different situations.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:06.720
It really sparked my interest in human psychology and human connection.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.640
But again, that's exposure.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.839
That's and that to me is like gaining mastery of the field.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.559
It's learning all about a certain thing.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.440
And that learning is driven by creativity, and then more creativity comes out of it.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.000
The more you know, the more curious you are.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:28.400
But then at the end, there's this creative expression, being able to write the poem.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:40.079
Now that you know all about poetry, being able to sit down and not just have the technical skills to create something that other people would recognize as poetry, but having something to say.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:58.079
And to Adam, to your point about authenticity, knowing yourself well enough, knowing what you need, knowing what you want, knowing your fears and hopes and all of those things well enough to express yourself in a way that is unique to you, that's like the pinnacle.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:02.960
Creative expression is the pinnacle of the creativity ladder.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:30.559
And to AI, I feel like at every single point of this process, there's a way that AI could maybe help someone, but more often than not, something that AI is interrupting to limit, uh, limit curiosity by just giving people answers, to flattening the types of knowledge that people have, to coming in as a shortcut, as a substitute to express for people rather than challenging them to express on their own all of it.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.640
All of it's degraded by AI.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:40.240
Well, I, as sort of overwhelming, this subject can be as it often is.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:50.880
I'm actually really excited about this idea because you know, we talk about, oh, accountability and uh vulnerability and all the ways that AI is impacting these different things.
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:58.559
And and I think creativity is a little outside the lane if you're talking about like healthy relationships or well-being or things or things like that.
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:07.039
And I love this idea as we sort of wind down here of leaning into the creative process.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:21.440
And that, you know, whether it's, I mean, and I should say this, everybody, like when Sloan talks about the research that long-form reading should come back, she is like a mon she has a book addiction, is a problem.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.319
And so that that's just music to her ears.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.480
So just, you know, it's still good.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.559
It's, you know, the the the evidence, the evidence is sound, but really plays to to Sloan's strengths.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:42.720
But for those of you who feel a little adrift in this AI world, like I think we all are, I think leaning into the stuff that we know is always like the default.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:50.480
And with creativity, I mean, I think about this university that I work with, we work with a lot of universities at NTAB.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:05.039
But one thing they do is to get when they they found that when you sort of ask students, hey, come in and let's, you know, feeling stressed out, like let's come in and come get resources or whatever, like they just don't show up, right?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:08.160
It's like, uh, not different and who knows why.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:13.920
But when they just have like this sort of drop-in opportunity, and maybe they can drop in and do art.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.759
Maybe they have like a horticulture time where it's like, yeah, do some gardening, right?
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.599
Like figure out what you want to plant in here and arrange together, right?
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.599
And then they might talk about what's going on with them, or they might just, you know, be create, you know, have that opportunity to be creative.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:35.279
I think we need to start finding inroads for those types of things as early as possible, right?
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:44.079
Because it's just, you know, people aren't as in the weeds on this stuff as you and I are, but I we can see very clearly, yeah, like this is gonna be very disruptive to creativity.
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.920
And creativity is linked to all these other things, healthy relationships and authenticity and all this, that, and the other.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:53.279
So yeah, get out the pens and paper, I guess.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.680
Well, and I mean, I exact same thing.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.279
I was really impressed with this university that I went to, and they the peer educators were talking, they had exactly the same thing.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:12.079
They would do events like yoga with puppies, or they would do building things with Legos and listening to music.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:13.920
Like it was always, there was always a draw.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.079
It was do something physical with your hands and engage with people, watch a movie, listen.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.319
It was always kind of we're going to engage you on multiple different levels and then give you a space to talk if you want to talk.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.559
Creativity, if we just expect people to sit on their own in their room, just doing something creative.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.839
Yeah, some like people on the far end of the bell curve really thrive with that.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.440
Like some artists, some authors, yeah, they're gonna like shut themselves in their room and you know, they come up with something beautiful.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:58.960
But for most of us, to get to the point where we're creative, we need spaces and times and communities that foster creativity.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.440
And Chat GPT AI, it's just meant to pull people into screen time.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.119
And screen time is not when people are at their most creative.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.799
Or isolation, right?
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.000
Or isolation.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:13.359
Exactly.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:18.079
So I would say that, you know, we are coming to the end of this podcast today.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.720
So let's get solutions oriented rather than just being upset about something.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:32:07.200
But if you want to find the very specific ways where you need to learn something new, so you open your various chatbot, you ask a question, you get some specific information, you maybe challenge, you get, you write prompts that will get the chatbot to challenge you on knowledge, ask you questions, but then you take that information, you put down your phone, you go into a different space with a different type of people who are going to get you to interact with that knowledge in a different way, either by talking about it, by, you know, having kind of a like a creative arts time where you just like, I don't know, do some improvisation or like sit down with some creative little crafting and like do something.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:14.640
Anyway, you give your brain a different way to play with that information, then we're on the road to creativity.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.480
But we need to limit the way AI is involved.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.680
We need to get off our screens and we need to give ourselves an actual opportunity to be creative.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:29.119
I find, and for me, it's like, or or don't you don't have to go be in community with other people after doing that.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.839
Like I when I drive, I come up with ideas, right?
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.400
When I'm working out or going for a walk or whatever, like, but all what do all those things have in common?
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:37.519
Like I'm not on my phone.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.799
Well, and there's there's the classic like shower inspiration.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:41.839
Well, what's a shower?
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:43.920
It's a time when you're eating a lemon.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:44.160
Yeah.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:45.920
Shower lemons.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:47.519
Shout out shower lemons.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:48.880
Shout out shower lemons.
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.960
But yeah, it's like 15 to 20 minutes of your day when you're not looking at a screen.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:54.000
You're not looking at anything.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.440
Your your mind is just blank.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:56.559
You're getting no input.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.519
So your brain actually has an opportunity to give some output.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:09.440
You know where my brain's going creative right creatively right now is if there's a shower emoji and a lemon emoji that I can start sending when I have a good idea to you, and you'll just know.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.599
That's what creative, that's what I'm doing creative really at creative.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.480
This is the real highbrow stuff that happens at NTEB, y'all.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.599
This is end, this is you're really seeing behind pulling behind the curtain here.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.319
No, but I well, let's end here.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:26.960
But yeah, I think again, like it's really not about the AI, right?
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.400
It's about and and by the way, AI, like using AI for this stuff, it's not a collaborative, typically very collaborative.
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:35.440
It's typically, you know, very isolating.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:44.160
So like just doing something outside of your screen or or using AI for a product, like, you know, I think it naturally pushes you to connect with other people.
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:56.640
I mean, we're one thing I'm really excited about that we're doing actually is we're hosting like social impact AI coding cohorts where people can get creative with AI with other people.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.559
So we're trying to merge those things.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.319
Say, hey, you can use AI to build websites and build apps and build games.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.039
Let's use your imagination and creativity and use AI as your engineer to build it.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:08.880
And let's do it together, right?
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.360
So that we're, we're, we're in community.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:16.639
So I think there's all sorts of pathways forward with and without AI as we do this.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.119
We just have to, you know, be open to it.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.679
So yeah, if you're overwhelmed by AI, just find a way to get creative, right?
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.639
But just find a puppy and start doing some some yoga.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.440
It's the easy.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.079
That's the low, that's the lowest hanging fruit right there.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:30.880
All right.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.079
I don't have anything creative left to say, so we'll close out here.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.840
But this was a fun one.
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:44.400
I'm going to start using this in my talks, actually, and start talking about creativity as a way to sort of as part of the, you know, not resistance, right?
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:49.760
We're not anti-I on this podcast, but so understood like a solidarity fist up in the air.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:58.000
But, you know, like we do need to find ways to say, you know, we talk about in this podcast turning the human reasons we turn to AI, right?
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.280
Well, there might be an AI reasons we turn to humans too.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:02.480
And I think this is one of them.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.480
So yeah, we'll see you next time.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.519
Thanks for listening.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:10.400
And as always, like hit us up if you have any ideas.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:12.639
We're we we love mailbag questions.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.639
So if you have some ideas or want to share something, you know where to reach us.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:17.599
Thank you.
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:12.240
Hello, and welcome to the Why Humans Podcast, where we talk about the very human reasons people are turning to AI.
00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:15.279
My name is Adam Dodge, and I am the founder of NTAB.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:17.120
My name is Sloane Thompson.
00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.039
I am the director of education and AI initiatives at NTAB.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:26.800
I'd like to say that I was just struck by inspiration to do this episode.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:29.519
But the reality is, this isn't all Sloan.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.280
She has been, yeah, I mean, this is the creativity episode.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.799
And she was, I think, engaging in a little bit of creative thought when she came up with this.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.039
But Sloan, why are we doing this episode?
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:50.000
I feel like it's something we maybe haven't talked about a ton, or it's not something that's been on our wish list for a long time, but it's really, I think you've had some a little bit of urgency around this.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.679
What's what is like sort of driving your interest in this one?
00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:55.439
Well, I think a few different things.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:08.959
One is there's a growing body of surveying that's happening around all people, but specifically young people, about how they feel about AI, what they like about it, what they don't like about it.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:20.159
And one thing that I'm beginning to hear over and over again about college-age students and younger is that they actually feel like they're chained to AI.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.400
They feel like they have to use it because if they don't, they're falling behind.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:31.680
They're not going to get jobs, they're not going to get good grades because everyone else in their class is using AI to inflate their GPAs, all of this stuff.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:43.519
But even though they are now using it, they they're genuinely worried about how it's affecting them and what it's costing them to use it all the time.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:48.959
And one thing that they're saying over and over again is it's making them dumber.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.120
And that's their that's their biggest concern.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:53.680
It's actually compromising their ability to think.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:55.359
And this is something that we've talked about.
00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:06.079
You know, when we're talking about flirting, when we're talking about emotional intelligence development, but there's this other facet of human thinking beyond just cognitive processing.
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:07.599
And that's creativity.
00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:17.039
And creativity is something so specific, and it's something that is so integral to the human experience and human flourishing.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:18.560
So I think we have to talk about it.
00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:22.719
I think it's its own subject outside of intelligence, and we have to talk about it.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.319
So that's, and also I'm a theater person and I just I love creativity.
00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:31.439
I just creativity, so I just want to talk about it.
00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:33.599
So but you make a good point.
00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:37.199
Thank you for holding back on your theater dorkdom until the end.
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:39.120
But you make a good point, right?
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:47.599
Like I think a lot of people think creativity and they think like artistry, being an artist of some kind, but like creativity is it's like integral to who we are.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:57.599
We can be creative in our relationships, we can be creative in how we do our jobs, uh, you know, if you're in school, like how you make your way through academia.
00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:14.639
Like it's it's pretty, I would say, and I bring this up too because I feel like if you were to ask me to bet my life savings on whether like creatives, people are like artists, love or hate AI on the whole, I would say they hate it.
00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:34.159
Like I feel like most people I talk to really low that that are painters or artists or musicians, you know, actors, people are really don't have a great relationship to AI when it comes to creative license and the work that they do.
00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:39.360
But I think that's red herring is the wrong term.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:55.520
But I feel like we're shining a very bright light on Hollywood and the music industry and all these things when we talk about creativity, but it's actually way more accessible and I think under attack a little bit for us all.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.159
And it's really, I think, important for students.
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:05.759
What well, I mean, I'll ask you like a question you can't possibly answer like quickly, but like, can AI be creative?
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:15.360
I mean, if I presumably people think so if they're worried about it displacing them in these areas of sort of the artistic world.
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.160
Well, and I think it's good to start off.
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.079
I'm glad that we're starting off with that question.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:30.399
Because to your point about actors and writers and musicians, what their fears are around AI, there's two different avenues for those fears.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:38.639
One would be that their work is going to be stolen, degraded, you know, something, their likeness is going to be used.
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.600
And so it's it's kind of an intellectual property rights argument.
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:47.839
How is AI taking what they're doing and either making something new or worst case scenario, making it worse?
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:49.680
That's a legal question.
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.959
But then there's the other question there.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:04.079
If you let AI, which is trained on human data, if you let AI kind of just cook, is what it creates going to be better than what a human being could create?
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:12.480
And if so, what does that mean for where our society is going that suddenly we are just our creative fields are supplanted by AI?
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.720
So to your point, can AI be creative?
00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.240
It's kind of an esoteric question, but it's also kind of a very practical question.
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:31.040
I read this article in the Atlantic by Jasmine Sun, and the article is titled The Human Skill That Eludes AI.
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:36.480
And she, as a writer, is talking about can AI write creatively?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.319
And her her argument is no, it can't.
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.639
But she gives this really interesting example of GPT two.
00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.560
So chat GPT, their number two version, their second version.
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:56.959
And she was talking about how that version is kind of famous for giving really unexpected answers.
00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:03.040
And so she gives an example of she gives the prompt continue this story.
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:08.879
And it starts, the man decided to take a shower, and GBT2 answered.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.879
And in the shower, he was eating his lemon and thinking about his wife.
00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:14.560
Now, you could say that.
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:15.600
Who hasn't been there?
00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:16.480
Who hasn't been there?
00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.279
We're just having our shower lemons like we do.
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:20.639
Shower lemons.
00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:28.879
But I have read like high literature, and yeah, that kind of stuff happens.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:34.959
And it's a combination of it is so unexpected and it's so unique.
00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.040
And it it just immediately grabs your attention.
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:44.560
And so she was saying that yes, older models tended to do this.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.600
Now, ChatGBT 5 will not do this.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:59.839
I ran the same experiment on the latest version of ChatGPT, and the story that it gave me was very much the beginning to what could become like a middle of the range buy it at a grocery store mystery novel.
00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:06.800
So, yeah, it came up with new words in a story, but no, it didn't impress me with its unique creativity.
00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:08.000
So, yeah, I don't know.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:09.120
I think Can I just interrupt?
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:10.240
Can I just interrupt really quick?
00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:14.879
Are you are you saying that you can't get a good novel at a grocery store?
00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.279
Because that's a hot take that I wasn't that that caught me off guard.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:24.240
Are you saying that all novels shown in shoulder grocery stores are just trash?
00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:25.680
Is that is that what you're saying?
00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.199
I don't want to derail this very important topic, but I need to know.
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:30.720
I can't just keep this to myself.
00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.120
I mean, I think that they're formulaic.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.120
And if you like the formula, that's great.
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:36.959
You should absolutely keep doing that formula.
00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:44.240
But it I but it that it's is a type of story that isn't necessarily considered creative.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:52.639
I think in order for it to be creative, there would have to be some sort of unique spin that subverts the genre or just it it it it surprises you in some way.
00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:57.040
Can AI do something that's truly surprising?
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:06.879
And I think there's this other layer where you can surprise someone just by sending word salad at them, but it's surprising in a s in a specific way.
00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:12.079
It's doing something unexpected, but with intention and with meaning.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.680
It has to mean something.
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:20.319
So Adam, do you think AI can have that magical combination of things?
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:36.639
That it's breaking rules or breaking tropes or breaking expectations in some way, but it's doing it with an intention and a specific meaning in mind and clarity to the person who's creating it.
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:37.440
Hmm.
00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.159
I'll give you my lawyerly answer that I like to give a lot.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:41.200
I think it depends.
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.600
Like I think it can get close to that, right?
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.120
I think about okay, so let's talk about what we do for a living, right?
00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:54.799
Like what we do, we're not artists in the traditional sense, but or or or or any sense, really.
00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:03.360
But creativity, I I would argue, is maybe the primary thing that drives the work that we do.
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:13.919
Because it's and I I think it's important to mention this because a lot of people, as I said, I think earlier, like default to like being an artist.
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.240
And it's we all are creative.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.039
Like, how do you how are you creative, right?
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:28.720
Um the way I'm creative, the way I the way I I mean, NTAB was this new idea to do something that had never like didn't really exist.
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:35.600
I was solving a problem that I had working with domestic violence survivors is how do I prevent and respond to tech-facilitated abuse?
00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:40.320
And I had to create what I needed because it didn't exist.
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:48.240
And that action has just repeated itself over and over and over again.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:59.440
And when I think about it through sort of my lived experience about what being creative means to me, if I'm going to answer your question now, thinking it through that way.
00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:00.960
No, I don't think it can be.
00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:14.720
I think you when you and I meet to with sort of the express purpose of just being creative and getting into like a flow state together, or when I'm driving and I start coming up with new ideas for the work.
00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:19.360
Like, no, I don't I think that is a uniquely human thing.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:25.440
I think that I could then turn to AI and sort of help expand my thinking on those things.
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:32.559
But I don't know, I'm trying to imagine AI sort of doing that on its own.
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.840
And, you know, we didn't mention this before, but like what does creativity even mean?
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.919
Like, what's a good definition for creativity?
00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:50.879
And one you and I have batted around a little bit is the ability to generate novel, original, and valuable ideas, solutions, or artistic works by connecting disparate concepts through imagination.
00:10:51.440 --> 00:11:00.159
And I think it can help us with this process, but I think the process is uniquely human.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:01.919
And I hope I'm right, right?
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:08.879
Because I the idea that AI could completely supplant creativity makes me sad.
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:09.840
Yeah.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:10.320
Yeah.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:22.639
And I mean, I think that that's maybe what's coming up for me as you're saying that is which disparate points are we connecting?
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:33.679
And what you're talking about with creating in tech, you were create you were connecting dots across different areas.
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:39.200
So you were taking all of this stuff around technology and violence and a specific type of abuse.
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:52.799
But because of your background working in domestic violence shelters, you also had this area of expertise around what advocacy organizations looked like, how law enforcement was operating, current laws.
00:11:53.039 --> 00:12:11.840
And so you were able to connect the tech to the services needed and overlay those together into what became a new business model about, you know, what is this unique type of education that's needed that is basically tech education that's not IT, it's for advocates specifically.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.440
That's how NTAB was born.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.960
When I and so could Chat GPT have come up with that?
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:28.480
Well, I guess it depends on is all of that information in the training data in a way that it could draw upon and make connections.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:44.240
When I think about this story about the man in the shower with his lemon and thinking about his wife, it's drawing creatively on a number of different things, but some of them are uniquely human in a way that's not going to show up in a training data set.
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:49.840
So, for example, what comes up when you think about someone eating a lemon in a shower?
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:50.879
It's confusing.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.639
It's maybe a little bit disgusting.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.639
We have the like, you know, astringent ah of the lemon.
00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:02.799
So it's it's connecting an emotional experience to something very practical and mundane taking a shower.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:05.759
And so it brings up emotions for the reader.
00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:07.440
It has us feel something.
00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.759
That's the point of creativity in art, to make you feel something new.
00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.919
So could the AI just be creative in that way?
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.120
No, because it can't draw on the sorts of feelings that an author is drawing on.
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:22.879
But it was Chad GPT that said it.
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:28.159
It was GPT2 that said it, which leads us to was it just making words salad or did it mean something?
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.399
I think, I think without it being a human, it can't mean what it's saying.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:34.799
So yeah, that was my little journey.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:48.399
But I think there's there are certain parts of human intelligence and human experience that can be drawn on to do something truly creative that doesn't just exist in the training data of written human thought.
00:13:48.799 --> 00:14:03.759
I think we probably should have been talking about creativity more in our work and in these episodes that we've done, because a lot of it is about like if you're outsourcing flirting or small talk, like that's, you know, one, being unique, but also being creative.
00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:08.960
Like, how am I going to, you know, make this person laugh that doesn't know me, right?
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.879
How am I gonna, you know, in 10 seconds make an impression on this person?
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:14.639
Like that's being creative, right?
00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:22.320
And I think people are turning to AI for those things like I don't want to call like small talk mundane, but like little things in their lives.
00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:29.039
They're turning to AI to be like, what's a what's a good, how can I, you know, what's a fun date night idea, right?
00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:37.600
Like if I start, if we start to sort of bring it down a little bit to like, well, okay, I'm a therapist or I work in prevention education or I work in whatever.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.200
Like, well, how does this create, like, how does this topic show up here?
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.279
And I think what and what happens when it does, right?
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:57.679
Like what do we lose if we start handing the keys to AI to be creative for us?
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:15.120
And in preparing for this episode, you know, what I what I learned is like create creativity is like pretty damn important, you know, and can, you know, is good, you know, does all sorts of like beneficial things, enhances connection.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.279
Like when you and I are creative together, like it's a way to connect with other people.
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.919
It enhances our well-being, it makes us happier.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.120
And I can attest to this.
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:28.159
Like, I feel when I get into a flow state, like I'm generally feeling like life is good, right?
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.159
Like I feel pretty good about it.
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.519
It reduces stress.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.600
Like I feel uniquely me and authentically me.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:49.039
And when I put something out into the world or present to an audience of people with something that is really truly and wholly my own, one that's being, you know, taking a risk and being vulnerable.
00:15:49.440 --> 00:16:01.679
But also like it's however it lands with the audience, like I feel really good about putting something out there that is uniquely creative to me.
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.919
And I worry about what happens.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.799
And we talk about shortcuts on this podcast all the time with AI, using AI to shortcut things.
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.480
And I think creativity requires energy.
00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.399
It's not always you can't just tap into it on demand very easily sometimes.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:20.639
Sometimes you have to really like work at it.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.720
Sometimes inspiration strikes when you least expect it.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:31.279
But if you have AI sitting there saying, well, this is a tap and you can turn it on and get let's get creative.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.000
Yeah.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:38.320
I was really surprised when I was started thinking through this about, you know, the AI generation of kids growing up.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.480
And I worry about that.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:46.399
Yeah, I listened to a podcast interview with Rebecca Winthrop.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.440
And this was on our favorite podcast, one of our favorite podcasts, Your Undermanned Detention from the Center.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.120
This is my favorite podcast.
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:53.919
This is my favorite.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.279
Come on, Sloan.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:00.320
But it was specifically they were talking about education.
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:11.279
And they made, she made this connection about domain mastery, how domain mastery is highly coordinated with creative thought and creative problem solving.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:23.599
And what they mean by that is knowing your field, knowing this body of information so well that you are not just able to understand it, but you're able to do something new with it.
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.599
If you don't have domain mastery, then you cannot be creative.
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:39.200
So to your point about what AI is doing in this space, I think it's degrading someone's ability to obtain that domain mastery.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:47.839
Because yes, ChatGPT, Claude, they can serve up facts to you and you can learn more things.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:59.599
But I think that true mastery of a domain, true mastery of an area of a field, you need to do more than just read it one type of way.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.519
It's all these different things.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.799
There's been a big movement to bring back long form reading of physical books.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:17.519
And it's because the research is in reading something on a screen is just fundamentally different from sitting down and holding a book in your hands and reading it.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.319
And part of that, Adam, is what you're saying, flow state.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:27.119
When you're able to just lock in to a physical book for a couple of hours, then it puts you in a different state of mind.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.839
Second of all, you are creating sense memories with the book itself.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:41.039
And the smell of it, remembering the specific page that something was on, all of that, all of that goes into scaffolding the type of knowledge that you're acquiring.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:51.119
So if you're just if when you want to learn something new, you just put in the prompt into the chatbot and it gives you an answer.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:56.799
Yes, you've learned something, but that knowledge isn't rooted in a number of different ways.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:01.440
And this is another reason why at schools, they don't just want kids like reading something from a screen.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.480
They want them to go out and build things and touch things.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:05.599
It's kinetic learning.
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.839
You learn it in a different, deeper way.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:18.640
So if people become overly reliant on Chat GBT to learn their field just by typing in prompts and getting information back, it's the shortcuts that you're talking about.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:29.599
But it also cheapens and flattens the knowledge acquisition itself in a way that is not going to get us to the mastery of the information that is needed for creative thought.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:30.880
That's my concern.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:38.480
And I think that when young people are saying that they're worried about AI making them dumber, I think that that's kind of at the heart of it.
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.799
Even if they're getting good grades, right?
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:43.279
Well, they're getting the good grades because the answer is.
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:50.319
Right.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.559
Like it's not, you know what I mean?
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.839
I mean, I just gave a sort of a long form definition of creativity.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:04.799
Don't you have like a shirt somewhere that that you know short makes a little easier recall for us?
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:05.440
Yeah.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.400
My mom gave me a shirt that says, creativity is intelligence having fun.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:11.519
And I love that.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:18.480
I love that because it it it again, it also speaks to this playfulness of creativity, that it's something that it does.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:20.240
It makes you feel good.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.160
It's I think creativity is fun.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.519
It it electrifies you.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.519
It it does connect you with other people.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:29.279
It gives you something that you're so excited to talk to somebody else about.
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:38.799
So yeah, and I I mean, to your point about social networks, that creativity is something that so often is done with other people.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:46.400
We all we've talked so much on this podcast about over reliance on AI deteriorating social networks.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.680
I think that is another thing that deteriorates creativity.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480
What happened to INTAB when I came on board?
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:54.319
Just went down.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.599
It's been downhill ever since, obviously.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.960
No, I mean it's well, like it's helpful.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.799
You and I joke that we like share a brain because we're very similar at the way we do things.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:18.559
And so it's been great to have like a thought partner who sees, you know, is is creative and and and attacks these these issues in a way like creatively that that I do.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.519
And so that's been great, right?
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:45.279
And yeah, it's so funny because I as we're talking through this, I feel like if I'm standing in front of like a middle school class trying to explain why not to use AI to be creative, and then being like, bruh, like, you know, why would I do, why would I, you know, write this like poem or why would I do this when AI is just gonna do a better job anyway, and I don't have to deal with it, right?
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.000
And I don't, and I'm not into poetry, right?
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.000
And so why should I do that?
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.160
And I feel like we all need to be prepared to have this argument.
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:59.759
And the funny thing is not funny thing, but the familiar thing is that.
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.720
This has nothing to do with AI.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:10.160
Like so much of what we talk about has nothing to do with like understanding how AI is supplanting creativity or disrupting creativity.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.880
It's about understanding creativity, right?
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.640
And why it's important, right?
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:17.359
And why it helps us connect.
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.279
Like we talk about, oh, we're in a loneliness epidemic and all these different things.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:31.680
Well, then we can't be talking about loneliness without talking about creativity and or well-being, right, without talking about creativity.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:38.559
And so, and and I would say to you know, the student that I just made up, it's like, well, you don't even know if you like poetry or not.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.599
Like you have to try it.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.359
Like you'll never know, right?
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.000
Like we all do stuff we don't like, right?
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.799
But you might find out that you do like it, or it might lead you to the other thing.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:23:11.920
I mean, the thing that I have a lot, the the issue that I talk to a lot of people who are going through like career changes is what I'll tell them is, and this is was true for me because I had a lot of careers before I ended up at NTAB, was you know, like everything you do along the way is going to inform like what you end up doing and on some level, right?
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:18.160
The things that you, the tools that you pick up along the way, the times you were creative in those positions, right?
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:24.960
Like to use you as an example, like you were a teacher, you were in theater, you were a preventionist, you were an advocate.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:34.160
Like you, you have done all these different things that has like, and through alchemy, made you like a great fit to do what you're doing now.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:51.200
And I think, and I just, if we're not having these conversations about creativity with people, with this people, kids going through AI adolescence, for example, then I think, and I say this all the time, but then like we're just gonna give the wheel to AI and it's gonna be like, well, we'll do it for you, right?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.039
Like we we'll do anything you want, basically.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:03.759
And so, and including be creative for you and and produce things for you that you could have never done on your own.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.599
It won't be you, right?
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.759
There won't be any of you in it, but you can pass it off as your own, right?
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.880
Just like hiring somebody to write your paper for you, right?
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.160
And if you're cool with that, then you're cool with that.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:22.960
But I want people to at least understand what they're losing or what the what the stakes are before they do that.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:24.640
And I don't think people know that.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:31.200
Well, and I think this is one of those places where breaking down a process is going to be extremely helpful.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:43.920
Because if you're just asking the general question of is AI helping or hurting human creativity, then you're lumping creativity into this one thing.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:51.440
But as I was listening to you talk about, you know, this hypothetical kid and he wants to write a poem, but no, he doesn't want to write it.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:59.279
He just wants to have a poem that he can then send to somebody else, either a teacher or, you know, another kid that he's trying to impress.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:08.720
What are all the different parts of the creative process that are breaking down when he makes that choice to just get AI to make the poem?
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:15.039
And you're talking about, okay, well, the very beginning of the process, he might not know what poetry is.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.640
He's never experienced poetry.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:22.480
He just knows of it as a thing that sometimes impresses a teacher or a thing that sometimes impresses someone romantically.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:29.359
So he wants what, he wants a poem, but he has no idea of the value of poetry, his specific taste in poetry, any of it.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:30.559
So that's one thing.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:37.359
He has limited his scope of the world and it does not include poetry.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.480
But then there's so there's the curiosity.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.519
You have to know something, and you have to know enough about something to be curious about it.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:26:01.759
For me, for theater, one of the beautiful things about my time as a theater artist is that it developed this deep, deep curiosity about other people, reading stories all the time of different people in different situations.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:06.720
It really sparked my interest in human psychology and human connection.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.640
But again, that's exposure.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.839
That's and that to me is like gaining mastery of the field.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.559
It's learning all about a certain thing.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.440
And that learning is driven by creativity, and then more creativity comes out of it.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.000
The more you know, the more curious you are.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:28.400
But then at the end, there's this creative expression, being able to write the poem.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:40.079
Now that you know all about poetry, being able to sit down and not just have the technical skills to create something that other people would recognize as poetry, but having something to say.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:58.079
And to Adam, to your point about authenticity, knowing yourself well enough, knowing what you need, knowing what you want, knowing your fears and hopes and all of those things well enough to express yourself in a way that is unique to you, that's like the pinnacle.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:02.960
Creative expression is the pinnacle of the creativity ladder.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:30.559
And to AI, I feel like at every single point of this process, there's a way that AI could maybe help someone, but more often than not, something that AI is interrupting to limit, uh, limit curiosity by just giving people answers, to flattening the types of knowledge that people have, to coming in as a shortcut, as a substitute to express for people rather than challenging them to express on their own all of it.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.640
All of it's degraded by AI.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:40.240
Well, I, as sort of overwhelming, this subject can be as it often is.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:50.880
I'm actually really excited about this idea because you know, we talk about, oh, accountability and uh vulnerability and all the ways that AI is impacting these different things.
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:58.559
And and I think creativity is a little outside the lane if you're talking about like healthy relationships or well-being or things or things like that.
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:07.039
And I love this idea as we sort of wind down here of leaning into the creative process.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:21.440
And that, you know, whether it's, I mean, and I should say this, everybody, like when Sloan talks about the research that long-form reading should come back, she is like a mon she has a book addiction, is a problem.
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.319
And so that that's just music to her ears.
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.480
So just, you know, it's still good.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.559
It's, you know, the the the evidence, the evidence is sound, but really plays to to Sloan's strengths.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:42.720
But for those of you who feel a little adrift in this AI world, like I think we all are, I think leaning into the stuff that we know is always like the default.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:50.480
And with creativity, I mean, I think about this university that I work with, we work with a lot of universities at NTAB.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:05.039
But one thing they do is to get when they they found that when you sort of ask students, hey, come in and let's, you know, feeling stressed out, like let's come in and come get resources or whatever, like they just don't show up, right?
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:08.160
It's like, uh, not different and who knows why.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:13.920
But when they just have like this sort of drop-in opportunity, and maybe they can drop in and do art.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.759
Maybe they have like a horticulture time where it's like, yeah, do some gardening, right?
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.599
Like figure out what you want to plant in here and arrange together, right?
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.599
And then they might talk about what's going on with them, or they might just, you know, be create, you know, have that opportunity to be creative.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:35.279
I think we need to start finding inroads for those types of things as early as possible, right?
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:44.079
Because it's just, you know, people aren't as in the weeds on this stuff as you and I are, but I we can see very clearly, yeah, like this is gonna be very disruptive to creativity.
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.920
And creativity is linked to all these other things, healthy relationships and authenticity and all this, that, and the other.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:53.279
So yeah, get out the pens and paper, I guess.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.680
Well, and I mean, I exact same thing.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.279
I was really impressed with this university that I went to, and they the peer educators were talking, they had exactly the same thing.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:12.079
They would do events like yoga with puppies, or they would do building things with Legos and listening to music.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:13.920
Like it was always, there was always a draw.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.079
It was do something physical with your hands and engage with people, watch a movie, listen.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.319
It was always kind of we're going to engage you on multiple different levels and then give you a space to talk if you want to talk.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.559
Creativity, if we just expect people to sit on their own in their room, just doing something creative.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.839
Yeah, some like people on the far end of the bell curve really thrive with that.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:49.440
Like some artists, some authors, yeah, they're gonna like shut themselves in their room and you know, they come up with something beautiful.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:58.960
But for most of us, to get to the point where we're creative, we need spaces and times and communities that foster creativity.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.440
And Chat GPT AI, it's just meant to pull people into screen time.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.119
And screen time is not when people are at their most creative.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.799
Or isolation, right?
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.000
Or isolation.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:13.359
Exactly.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:18.079
So I would say that, you know, we are coming to the end of this podcast today.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.720
So let's get solutions oriented rather than just being upset about something.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:32:07.200
But if you want to find the very specific ways where you need to learn something new, so you open your various chatbot, you ask a question, you get some specific information, you maybe challenge, you get, you write prompts that will get the chatbot to challenge you on knowledge, ask you questions, but then you take that information, you put down your phone, you go into a different space with a different type of people who are going to get you to interact with that knowledge in a different way, either by talking about it, by, you know, having kind of a like a creative arts time where you just like, I don't know, do some improvisation or like sit down with some creative little crafting and like do something.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:14.640
Anyway, you give your brain a different way to play with that information, then we're on the road to creativity.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.480
But we need to limit the way AI is involved.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.680
We need to get off our screens and we need to give ourselves an actual opportunity to be creative.
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:29.119
I find, and for me, it's like, or or don't you don't have to go be in community with other people after doing that.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.839
Like I when I drive, I come up with ideas, right?
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.400
When I'm working out or going for a walk or whatever, like, but all what do all those things have in common?
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:37.519
Like I'm not on my phone.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.799
Well, and there's there's the classic like shower inspiration.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:41.839
Well, what's a shower?
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:43.920
It's a time when you're eating a lemon.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:44.160
Yeah.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:45.920
Shower lemons.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:47.519
Shout out shower lemons.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:48.880
Shout out shower lemons.
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.960
But yeah, it's like 15 to 20 minutes of your day when you're not looking at a screen.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:54.000
You're not looking at anything.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.440
Your your mind is just blank.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:56.559
You're getting no input.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.519
So your brain actually has an opportunity to give some output.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:09.440
You know where my brain's going creative right creatively right now is if there's a shower emoji and a lemon emoji that I can start sending when I have a good idea to you, and you'll just know.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.599
That's what creative, that's what I'm doing creative really at creative.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.480
This is the real highbrow stuff that happens at NTEB, y'all.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.599
This is end, this is you're really seeing behind pulling behind the curtain here.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.319
No, but I well, let's end here.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:26.960
But yeah, I think again, like it's really not about the AI, right?
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.400
It's about and and by the way, AI, like using AI for this stuff, it's not a collaborative, typically very collaborative.
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:35.440
It's typically, you know, very isolating.
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:44.160
So like just doing something outside of your screen or or using AI for a product, like, you know, I think it naturally pushes you to connect with other people.
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:56.640
I mean, we're one thing I'm really excited about that we're doing actually is we're hosting like social impact AI coding cohorts where people can get creative with AI with other people.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.559
So we're trying to merge those things.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.319
Say, hey, you can use AI to build websites and build apps and build games.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.039
Let's use your imagination and creativity and use AI as your engineer to build it.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:08.880
And let's do it together, right?
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.360
So that we're, we're, we're in community.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:16.639
So I think there's all sorts of pathways forward with and without AI as we do this.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.119
We just have to, you know, be open to it.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.679
So yeah, if you're overwhelmed by AI, just find a way to get creative, right?
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.639
But just find a puppy and start doing some some yoga.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.440
It's the easy.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.079
That's the low, that's the lowest hanging fruit right there.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:30.880
All right.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.079
I don't have anything creative left to say, so we'll close out here.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.840
But this was a fun one.
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:44.400
I'm going to start using this in my talks, actually, and start talking about creativity as a way to sort of as part of the, you know, not resistance, right?
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:49.760
We're not anti-I on this podcast, but so understood like a solidarity fist up in the air.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:58.000
But, you know, like we do need to find ways to say, you know, we talk about in this podcast turning the human reasons we turn to AI, right?
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.280
Well, there might be an AI reasons we turn to humans too.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:02.480
And I think this is one of them.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:04.480
So yeah, we'll see you next time.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.519
Thanks for listening.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:10.400
And as always, like hit us up if you have any ideas.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:12.639
We're we we love mailbag questions.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.639
So if you have some ideas or want to share something, you know where to reach us.
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:17.599
Thank you.
