WEBVTT
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Hi, this is Stephen Laddock.
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And I'm Kent McPhail.
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Welcome to What the M, the podcast about the mortgage default servicing industry.
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What the M is a bi-weekly podcast with episodes dropping every other Monday.
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Welcome everybody.
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This is Kent McPhail, co-host of What the M podcast with my fellow co-host, Mr.
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Steven Laddock.
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The theme of the show today, and it's basically a memorial or in memoriam to my law partner, Brooke Sanchez.
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And I think a lot of the people in the industry know this, but anyway, Brooke passed away back on August the 18th.
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And we just wanted to uh say a few words about her and then replay an episode back from episode 29 when she co-hosted with Steve because I was off gallivanting somewhere.
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But I guess to begin with, one, she is being sorely missed.
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She was an amazing attorney, had great skills.
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As I tell folks, she was always the adult in the room.
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One of the things that I've heard more after her passing were younger lawyers and staff members that talked about her mentorship, which is something that Stephen and I are both really big on, trying to help those around us and you know help the next guy or girl in line, share what knowledge we have.
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But anyway, she was amazing and is going to be missed.
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Yeah, I I agree.
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And it's just incredibly sad news and shocking news.
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But she was an outstanding attorney, an outstanding advocate for her clients, but an outstanding person.
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I mean, she was just an all-around good person.
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She did so much in the industry, and so much even behind the scenes that people didn't see it, helping out on committees, helping out on panels, writing articles, being involved, doing white papers.
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She all she did so much to assist our industry.
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In addition to being, you know, so involved in the legal community, bankruptcy, and just a wonderful, wonderful person to be around.
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
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Well, Brooke, you were missed uh until we see you again.
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Um, here's your episode.
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Welcome everyone.
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Welcome to this week's edition of the What the M podcast.
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This is Stephen Laddock.
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Happy to be here with everybody, happy to have our listeners out there.
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Uh, hope everyone is having a good week.
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Our co-host, Kent McPhail, is on vacation this week.
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So we have a fantastic stand-in for Kent McPhail, Kent's law partner, Brooke Sanchez.
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Say hello, Brooke.
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Hey, Steve, I'm really excited to be here.
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Mr.
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McPhail is on the ski slopes where he belongs.
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Um, and I'm just excited to be on the podcast today.
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I was a guest before, but now I get to be the co-host.
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So I'm certainly honored.
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You are the host of this one since this topic is right up your alley.
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Our theme this week, what we're gonna talk about, we're gonna give an update on bankruptcy law.
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It's 20, it's February 2024.
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We're early in the year, but uh, we wanted to cover some new topics that are coming up in the bankruptcy world that we're seeing from a mortgage servicing perspective.
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We're gonna talk a little bit about some changes to the rules, some changes to the fees.
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Uh, also gonna talk a little bit about statistics and what has come up with regard to um the number of filings that we saw from 23 over 2022, and if that trend should continue in 24, will there be an uptick?
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So I'm gonna kick it off with a couple of questions for Brooke to talk about.
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Let's start with the bankruptcy statistics and where we're at today.
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I was looking at this recently and I was surprised.
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I knew 23, the number of filings had gone up over 2022, but I was surprised at the extent they did.
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So why don't you tell listeners a little bit about the types of bankruptcies and what the trends are right now for the filings?
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Yeah, I was surprised too.
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So, you know, most people in the industry and certainly bankruptcy professionals, we've been kind of bracing for this increase of bankruptcies, especially especially since COVID.
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Um, and it just kind of hasn't come.
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Um, there's been a little bit of gradual increase.
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It went down from 2019, a little bit of gradual increase, but we finally saw the momentum swing up in 2023.
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Um so there was almost 17% increase in consumer bankruptcy filings.
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That's chapter seven and chapter 13.
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There was a huge increase in the commercial business filings, um, about 75% increase from 2022 to 2023.
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Um I think we can expect the consumer and the commercial bankruptcies to continue to increase.
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I think it's picked up momentum.
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And I know we've been saying that for a few years, but I think we're finally seeing that actually come to fruition.
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Yeah, let me ask you a few questions based off those statistics.
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Now, the number of commercial filings way up.
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And what we come back to though is the economy is performing so well and unemployment still remains near a historic low.
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If this commercial trend continues, I mean, are is there going to be, do you see an increase in unemployment from chapter sevens by these filings?
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That's part one of my question.
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And that's a good question.
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You know, there's a lot of different factors that come into play when whether bankruptcies are going to increase.
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Um quite frankly, things can be so bad that people are not filing bankruptcy.
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Um, there's no reason to get a fresh start if there's nothing on the horizon, if there's no blood that can be squeezed from the turnip and you don't see an uh a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Or quite frankly, people don't have enough money to file bankruptcy.
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Um and then after COVID, I think last year we saw the runoff of the different various types of government stimulus.
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Um, we saw the interest rates, which I think at the end of 2023 we saw that change, but I think we're still going to see an increase in those bankruptcy filings.
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It's interesting that if you look at foreclosure statistics for 2023, it's still well below the level it was pre-COVID.
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It's only at about 65% of the level it was at the end of 2019, early 2020.
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Now, foreclosures are usually what precipitates filing bankruptcies.
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So, what is it out there that's causing, uh, in your opinion, what's causing the increase of the consumer filings?
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Or are they just filing prior to the foreclosures taking place?
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Yeah, that's a great point.
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You know, usually you see the foreclosures and then the bankruptcies increase, but we've kind of seen a little bit of the reverse.
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So just to give some numbers with what we're talking about, 2019, there were a total of 775,000 bankruptcies.
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We're not anywhere near that.
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Um, but in 2022, we had 387,000 and some change, and then 2023 we're up to 453,000.
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Um that's we had almost 19,000 business bankruptcies in 23.
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That's up from a little over 13,000.
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So that's a huge increase.
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And you know, I think a lot of the big name businesses we saw go under last year.
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I I I think the momentum's just picking up.
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I think we'll see that increase.
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The question is, when will we get back to the pre-2019 levels?
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That I'm not sure of.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's still well below then though.
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Let's let's shift gears a little bit and talk about uh certain amendments that went into effect, I think, in December of 23.
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Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about and highlight some of the changes that are in effect now?
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Yeah, sure.
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So, in my opinion, just about an enough time for everyone to get used to the fees, they increase.
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So that happened in December, and they all the fees went up just a little bit.
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And that's not just on the debtor side.
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So usually when they do a fee increase, they'll do them across the board a little bit.
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Um, so filing fees went up for the debtor, filing fees for the things that creditors, and basically the fees for everything went up a little bit.
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For example, what one of the things that we do a lot in our industry is a motion for relief.
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That fee went up from 188 to 199.
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And they do that every so often.
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They'll do it again when we just get used to the 1990 um, but uh we so we saw that across the board.
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Um, another big change in the rules that went into effect in December was a change to the 410A, which is a proof of claim attachment form.
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Um that 410a is a very complicated item.
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So why don't you just uh explain a little bit about what you mean for our listeners that might not be familiar with the term 410a?
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Absolutely.
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So there's a proof of claim form that all creditors file um in the first few months of a bankruptcy.
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And if it is a mortgage debt and there are arrears, then the creditor is required to file an attachment with that proof of claim.
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And that is supposed to be essentially a pay history back from the first date of default.
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So depending on how much in default and how long ago that first started, we could be talking about an extensive attachment.
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Now, this went into play years ago now, and we're still getting used to that.
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Um, but the change that came forward in December was now the arrears have to be broken up by principal and interest.
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And that wasn't something that we had to designate before.
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So it's not something that typically I've seen provided from my mortgage servicing clients when they send over a referral for a proof of claim.
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So we're we're, you know, a little bit of back and forth.
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This is new information that we need that we have to uh include in that attachment to the proof of claim.
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Um, but we're getting used to it.
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Just one other variable that has to be filled out in that long and complicated attachment.
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Uh it is very complicated.
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And when you start having to break it down, it makes it even more manual and more complicated to do.
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Absolutely.
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And like I said, when some of these debtors are coming in to save their home and have years and years of default.
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So you may have an attachment that goes on for years and years.
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I I I mentioned as we started that you are standing in as our co-host today for Kent, but I for neglected to ask you about your background and and the jurisdictions that you practice in.
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So why don't you tell our listeners to a little bit about yourself before we get back to the bankruptcy topic?
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Yeah.
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Um, so I have been practicing almost 20 years now.
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I graduated law school in 2005.
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Um, and I first started out in Florida, and I started representing debtors in bankruptcy.
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And I did it for 10 years, and I really enjoyed it.
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But my family is in Mobile, and that's where our headquarters are now.
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And I have an 11-year-old son, but shortly after he was born, we decided to move back.
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I did debtor work for a couple more years, but then eventually made the switch and joined up with Kent.
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And since then, I've been representing creditors only in bankruptcy and other various FDCPA claims and some foreclosure actions as well.
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Uh, so I've been with Kent for six years now.
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In what states do you practice?
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Yeah, so I practice, I've got my first license in Florida.
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That was in 2006.
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And 2014, when I moved to Alabama, I got my license there, which required taking another bar exam years after graduating law school because Florida isn't really friendly with other states.
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And then I just got admitted to Tennessee, or I'm actually waiting.
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I've been approved and I'm waiting to be sworn in.
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That should be any week now.
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Very good.
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Have fun in Nashville for that.
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Yeah, I've heard.
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Um, I'm excited about that.
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All right, let's let's jump back into our topic and some of the rule changes that have gone into effect.
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Not just fee changes took place in December, but I think some rules changed as well.
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That's right.
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So we had the difference and the breakdown on the 410A form.
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Probably the only other major change or or one change that people have been talking about is they changed some of the ways that a creditor or anyone can claim unclaimed funds in a bankruptcy.
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Um generally, it's a pretty cumbersome process.
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Um, it takes a lot of validation on behalf of the claimant, which there's no reason why it shouldn't, but um, it's been so cumbersome that I think a lot of um recipients have shied away from claiming that.
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They did make some adjustments.
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I think there's still a long way to go.
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Um, but I think that at least they recognize that there need to be some changes in that area.
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So they're trying to make that a little bit easier for people to request those unclaimed funds when they find out that they are owed some money that are held in those unclaimed funds accounts.
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So those are the probably the three main changes that took into effect in December.
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Let me talk a little bit about loss mitigation in your jurisdictions.
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Do bankruptcy courts engage in the loss mitigation process with debtors?
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Well, I'll tell you, so I told you a little bit about my background.
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I started on the debtor side in Florida that happened to be at Pensacola, which is really 50 minutes from here.
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And right as I left there, which was 2014, and that district, which is the Northern District of Florida, they were rolling out the mandatory mortgage mediation, modification mediation, so that in that district, anytime a person filed a chapter 13, there was a mandatory mediation between the mortgage servicer and the debtor.
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I didn't get to practice a lot of that, but I did some.
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Various districts have these loss mitigation portals where the debtor and debtor's counsel apply, and the servicer can communicate directly with borrower's counsel and the borrower through the portal.
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But just a suggestion and a tip to the servicers out there that the judges in those districts do take it very seriously and do want your participation in that.
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And there are certain deadlines and certain requirements.
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You know, we will do our best as your attorneys to keep you up abreast of what is going on and the status of it.
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But it's very vital that we also get information on how things are progressing to make sure that uh that loss mitigation portal is timely, timely updated.
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So right.
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That's the thing that the judges want to see.
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You know, this is debtor's court in bankruptcy, and the last thing that they want to see is a debtor doing everything that they need to do, and there not be enough communication from the other side.
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So I think judges are pretty sensitive to that.
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So give me three top issues you're seeing in bankruptcy court right now.
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What's what's trending the trending legal fad you see?
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Well, so I think we talked about this before, but it's still an issue, and that is the response to notice of final cure and just the different ways that each district's even within a state, handle that, and the best way for a creditor to protect themselves.
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Some trustees always file the notice of final cure, some sometimes do, some don't file it at all.
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Sometimes there's a hearing.
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So without uniformity, I think that the servicer just needs to make sure that a tiling response is filed.
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And you know, it's just simply do you agree that the pre-petition arrears are cured?
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And do you agree that all the post petition payments have been made?
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I say simply.
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Sometimes it can get more complicated than that.
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But the first step is making sure that that response is filed.
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And then I kind of just go with the flow, depending on what that jurisdiction is going to do, as long as I know that my response has been filed, I'm going to attend any hearing.
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But because it's so ununiform, depends on the district, what our next step is, but we just have to make sure that that response is filed and that it's accurate, and sometimes it's not, and we need to get in there and amend it, and that's okay too.
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Yeah, it's a very important legal issue that the servicers need to be aware of and some of the consequences.
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We already have one state court reported decision in Pennsylvania from an appellate court.
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In that instance, the the mortgage of record on the proof of claim sold the loan and transferred the loan to somebody else.
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That person did not file a transfer of claim in the bankruptcy court.
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So guess where the notice of final cure went?
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Right.
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It went to that prior servicer.
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When the new lender went and filed a foreclosure, the debtor's counsel filed a motion to dismiss it saying, My loan is current by virtue of my bankruptcy chapter 13 discharge.
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And the trial court and the appellate court agreed with them and throughout the uh uh throughout the uh foreclosure.
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And the fact of the matter was the guy hadn't reached a final cure, but because nobody responded to it, it was deemed deemed current.
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So we're to be wise.
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You know, if you if you take a loan as a servicer while it's in bankruptcy, make sure you get an assignment recorded and a transfer of claim on file.
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So the court knows for notices purposes.
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Absolutely.
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Uh that so you asked me for three, I'll give you another one, and I'm kind of dealing with this.
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It's kind of a it's related to a response to notice of final cure, but it it's when a payment notice of payment change isn't filed at all or isn't filed on on time.
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So that can create all a host of issues.
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But for example, in this case, we've got a dispute, and the debtor doesn't agree with my what I've filed as a response and it was the final cure for my client.
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So I'm just digging in, I'm going through month by month.
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Here's what was due, here's what was paid.
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And then I've noticed on my client's pay history that that payment doesn't match with the notice of payment a change that was filed with court.
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And come to find out they did a new escrow analysis, the escrow payment changed.
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We didn't file the notice of payment change, so nothing is reconciling.
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So that can that's just one example of not filing a timely notice of payment change, how that can throw a wrench in everything.
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That's a very good point.
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Uh number three.
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There it is.
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Number three.
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Are you seeing an uptick in motions for relief or any issues related to those?
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:47.039
No, uh, one thing I've I've noticed, and this is kind of really more with the districts, but there's a couple of judges in particular in Alabama who are being very strict about approving modifications, even when if it's in everyone's benefit.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:59.599
Um, and that's if if the modification is filed after the fact, um they kind of take offense to asking for permission to modify something after everyone signed it.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:16.559
So now in these two districts, we have to submit a request to modify with all the unsigned documents and ask for the court to approve it before all the steps have been gone through in order to modify it, which makes sense.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.799
We should be getting approval, but this is something that the servicers aren't used to.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.400
And they're sending me the modification paperwork signed.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:30.400
And in those instances in these districts, I have to go back and say, hold the phone, start over.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.680
We can't do this until the judge says it's okay.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.359
That's good.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:47.039
I can tell you, I in the last year, we've had a few issues in in Pennsylvania now relating to where the person was in bankruptcy and a sale occurred while they were in bankruptcy.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:53.359
And uh some good issues percolating up about can you get retroactive relief from the state?
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.000
Can you annul the stay to validate the sale?
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:03.599
And in the one instance which is getting litigated, and God, and it it's better than a law school exam.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:12.319
It has so many issues about a third party in competitive bidding bought the property and it went through the state court.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.519
The debtor never objected or never said anything to the state court about the validity of the sale.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:23.599
And the state court issues an order confirming the validity of the sale, and a deed is issued and recorded.
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:30.559
And after all that, the debtor goes into bankruptcy court and now says the sale was full in violation of the state.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:35.359
So we have like Bruckerfeldman issues about overturning a state court judgment.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.160
The debtor could have gone there and could have raised the issue.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:45.200
We have issues of section 549, which is a very useful section to a third-party purchaser.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:53.359
The legal issues and uh that have come up in the case is a third-party competitive bidder at a foreclosure sale or tax sale.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:01.519
I didn't realize this myself, but the issue is becoming can that person be considered a quote unquote purchaser under the bankruptcy code?
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:02.480
That's one of the issues.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:04.079
Oh my goodness.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:05.039
Wow.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.680
We have a similar, we have a similar case.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.799
Actually, it's a like a friend of the firm is having a case.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:12.880
We had this case and won.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:25.599
And the issue was the foreclosure sale took place prior to the bankruptcy, but the foreclosure deed was not executed and delivered until after the bankruptcy had been filed.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:35.599
Now we've got um some pretty clear case law in Alabama, I think in Mississippi as well, that once that foreclosure sale has been conducted, that's it.
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.240
Once the gavel falls, that's the end.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:49.599
And we have we had some success a few years ago um filing after that bankruptcy had been filed, um, the foreclosure had taken place prior to the petition.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:58.319
The deed wasn't executed until after we filed a motion to confirm that the stay was had terminated and the judge ruled in our favor.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:03.920
Well, someone else is fighting that same battle in one of our districts, so we'll see how that goes.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.839
But um certainly the timing of petition, the timing of the petition can create some very complex facts.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:23.119
It does now, and it it used to be easier to determine that we knew a date that the sheriff sale was, and we knew a date and a time that a borrower filed a petition.
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:36.960
But now, with instantaneous electronic submission and with bidding for some of our sales being online, it it's getting down to literally looking at the minute and second hands on the clock as to was this filed timely.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:53.599
So and um one thing that the judge said when we had success a couple years ago was as a matter of policy, it's better for us to have this bright line rule of when when the show ends, and then that's at the foreclosure sale.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:02.400
It's not better for anybody to have mud muddy water um with respect to when that interest it is extinguished.
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:03.839
And I agree with the judge.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.759
Of course I do, though, right?
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.880
Well, I thank you for being our co-host.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.599
You've been a former guest, but now you're a co-host.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:22.799
But as a guest co-host, do we still get to ask you Kent's last question of if you could go back and talk to your 20-year-old self, what advice would you give yourself?
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:28.079
Now, you answered this, I think, once before, but do you have a new answer or similar answer?
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:28.720
I do.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:38.079
I did answer it before, and I will uh I'll remind the listeners what I would have told my 20-year-old self was don't borrow any student loans.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.000
Um, and I would still tell my 20-year-old self that.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:54.960
Um, but I think on a more personal note, one thing I would tell my 20-year-old self is don't be so hard on yourself and give yourself a break every now and then.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:06.400
I think um the perfectionist in me is screaming, no, but you know, life's too short, and especially a lot of us in this industry um don't give ourselves a break.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.279
So we got to remember to do that every now and then.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.359
Excellent advice, and thank you.
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.799
Thank you to our listeners out there, and we'll talk to you soon.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:25.200
If you like what you hear on our podcast and want to hear some more, please rate, review, and subscribe to What the M on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.079
If you want to visit with us on social media, we can be found at WhatThe M podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:32.720
Thank you.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.000
Hi, this is Stephen Laddock.
00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:03.439
And I'm Kent McPhail.
00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:08.160
Welcome to What the M, the podcast about the mortgage default servicing industry.
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:13.199
What the M is a bi-weekly podcast with episodes dropping every other Monday.
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:18.719
Welcome everybody.
00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:23.519
This is Kent McPhail, co-host of What the M podcast with my fellow co-host, Mr.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:24.640
Steven Laddock.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:33.119
The theme of the show today, and it's basically a memorial or in memoriam to my law partner, Brooke Sanchez.
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:39.200
And I think a lot of the people in the industry know this, but anyway, Brooke passed away back on August the 18th.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:53.039
And we just wanted to uh say a few words about her and then replay an episode back from episode 29 when she co-hosted with Steve because I was off gallivanting somewhere.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.960
But I guess to begin with, one, she is being sorely missed.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.479
She was an amazing attorney, had great skills.
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.840
As I tell folks, she was always the adult in the room.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:23.040
One of the things that I've heard more after her passing were younger lawyers and staff members that talked about her mentorship, which is something that Stephen and I are both really big on, trying to help those around us and you know help the next guy or girl in line, share what knowledge we have.
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:26.879
But anyway, she was amazing and is going to be missed.
00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.560
Yeah, I I agree.
00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.560
And it's just incredibly sad news and shocking news.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:39.680
But she was an outstanding attorney, an outstanding advocate for her clients, but an outstanding person.
00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.040
I mean, she was just an all-around good person.
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:56.079
She did so much in the industry, and so much even behind the scenes that people didn't see it, helping out on committees, helping out on panels, writing articles, being involved, doing white papers.
00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.519
She all she did so much to assist our industry.
00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:07.040
In addition to being, you know, so involved in the legal community, bankruptcy, and just a wonderful, wonderful person to be around.
00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:08.400
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.159
Well, Brooke, you were missed uh until we see you again.
00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:14.240
Um, here's your episode.
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:15.840
Welcome everyone.
00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.840
Welcome to this week's edition of the What the M podcast.
00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:21.360
This is Stephen Laddock.
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:25.120
Happy to be here with everybody, happy to have our listeners out there.
00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:27.680
Uh, hope everyone is having a good week.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.479
Our co-host, Kent McPhail, is on vacation this week.
00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:39.120
So we have a fantastic stand-in for Kent McPhail, Kent's law partner, Brooke Sanchez.
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:40.240
Say hello, Brooke.
00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:42.719
Hey, Steve, I'm really excited to be here.
00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:43.120
Mr.
00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:47.520
McPhail is on the ski slopes where he belongs.
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.560
Um, and I'm just excited to be on the podcast today.
00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.159
I was a guest before, but now I get to be the co-host.
00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:55.919
So I'm certainly honored.
00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:00.719
You are the host of this one since this topic is right up your alley.
00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:05.439
Our theme this week, what we're gonna talk about, we're gonna give an update on bankruptcy law.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:07.520
It's 20, it's February 2024.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:15.759
We're early in the year, but uh, we wanted to cover some new topics that are coming up in the bankruptcy world that we're seeing from a mortgage servicing perspective.
00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:20.639
We're gonna talk a little bit about some changes to the rules, some changes to the fees.
00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:35.680
Uh, also gonna talk a little bit about statistics and what has come up with regard to um the number of filings that we saw from 23 over 2022, and if that trend should continue in 24, will there be an uptick?
00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:39.599
So I'm gonna kick it off with a couple of questions for Brooke to talk about.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.919
Let's start with the bankruptcy statistics and where we're at today.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.199
I was looking at this recently and I was surprised.
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:54.960
I knew 23, the number of filings had gone up over 2022, but I was surprised at the extent they did.
00:03:55.039 --> 00:04:00.719
So why don't you tell listeners a little bit about the types of bankruptcies and what the trends are right now for the filings?
00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:02.960
Yeah, I was surprised too.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:14.560
So, you know, most people in the industry and certainly bankruptcy professionals, we've been kind of bracing for this increase of bankruptcies, especially especially since COVID.
00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.120
Um, and it just kind of hasn't come.
00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.079
Um, there's been a little bit of gradual increase.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:28.079
It went down from 2019, a little bit of gradual increase, but we finally saw the momentum swing up in 2023.
00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:36.560
Um so there was almost 17% increase in consumer bankruptcy filings.
00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:38.639
That's chapter seven and chapter 13.
00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:49.920
There was a huge increase in the commercial business filings, um, about 75% increase from 2022 to 2023.
00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:58.800
Um I think we can expect the consumer and the commercial bankruptcies to continue to increase.
00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:00.639
I think it's picked up momentum.
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:08.000
And I know we've been saying that for a few years, but I think we're finally seeing that actually come to fruition.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.160
Yeah, let me ask you a few questions based off those statistics.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.639
Now, the number of commercial filings way up.
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:27.120
And what we come back to though is the economy is performing so well and unemployment still remains near a historic low.
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:37.839
If this commercial trend continues, I mean, are is there going to be, do you see an increase in unemployment from chapter sevens by these filings?
00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.199
That's part one of my question.
00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:42.480
And that's a good question.
00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:49.519
You know, there's a lot of different factors that come into play when whether bankruptcies are going to increase.
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:56.639
Um quite frankly, things can be so bad that people are not filing bankruptcy.
00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:08.399
Um, there's no reason to get a fresh start if there's nothing on the horizon, if there's no blood that can be squeezed from the turnip and you don't see an uh a light at the end of the tunnel.
00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:12.399
Or quite frankly, people don't have enough money to file bankruptcy.
00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:23.759
Um and then after COVID, I think last year we saw the runoff of the different various types of government stimulus.
00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:35.040
Um, we saw the interest rates, which I think at the end of 2023 we saw that change, but I think we're still going to see an increase in those bankruptcy filings.
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:44.959
It's interesting that if you look at foreclosure statistics for 2023, it's still well below the level it was pre-COVID.
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:51.600
It's only at about 65% of the level it was at the end of 2019, early 2020.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:56.639
Now, foreclosures are usually what precipitates filing bankruptcies.
00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:03.120
So, what is it out there that's causing, uh, in your opinion, what's causing the increase of the consumer filings?
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:07.680
Or are they just filing prior to the foreclosures taking place?
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:09.360
Yeah, that's a great point.
00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:16.240
You know, usually you see the foreclosures and then the bankruptcies increase, but we've kind of seen a little bit of the reverse.
00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:27.680
So just to give some numbers with what we're talking about, 2019, there were a total of 775,000 bankruptcies.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:29.920
We're not anywhere near that.
00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:39.839
Um, but in 2022, we had 387,000 and some change, and then 2023 we're up to 453,000.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:47.839
Um that's we had almost 19,000 business bankruptcies in 23.
00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.639
That's up from a little over 13,000.
00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.480
So that's a huge increase.
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:58.240
And you know, I think a lot of the big name businesses we saw go under last year.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:00.879
I I I think the momentum's just picking up.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:02.240
I think we'll see that increase.
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:06.480
The question is, when will we get back to the pre-2019 levels?
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:07.920
That I'm not sure of.
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:08.720
Yeah.
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.199
Yeah, it's still well below then though.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:19.360
Let's let's shift gears a little bit and talk about uh certain amendments that went into effect, I think, in December of 23.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:24.800
Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about and highlight some of the changes that are in effect now?
00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:25.839
Yeah, sure.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:33.360
So, in my opinion, just about an enough time for everyone to get used to the fees, they increase.
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.919
So that happened in December, and they all the fees went up just a little bit.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.000
And that's not just on the debtor side.
00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:44.960
So usually when they do a fee increase, they'll do them across the board a little bit.
00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:53.039
Um, so filing fees went up for the debtor, filing fees for the things that creditors, and basically the fees for everything went up a little bit.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.600
For example, what one of the things that we do a lot in our industry is a motion for relief.
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.480
That fee went up from 188 to 199.
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:02.240
And they do that every so often.
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:10.799
They'll do it again when we just get used to the 1990 um, but uh we so we saw that across the board.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:24.960
Um, another big change in the rules that went into effect in December was a change to the 410A, which is a proof of claim attachment form.
00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:30.240
Um that 410a is a very complicated item.
00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:38.559
So why don't you just uh explain a little bit about what you mean for our listeners that might not be familiar with the term 410a?
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:39.279
Absolutely.
00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:46.000
So there's a proof of claim form that all creditors file um in the first few months of a bankruptcy.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:55.200
And if it is a mortgage debt and there are arrears, then the creditor is required to file an attachment with that proof of claim.
00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:02.720
And that is supposed to be essentially a pay history back from the first date of default.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:12.480
So depending on how much in default and how long ago that first started, we could be talking about an extensive attachment.
00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:17.279
Now, this went into play years ago now, and we're still getting used to that.
00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:27.919
Um, but the change that came forward in December was now the arrears have to be broken up by principal and interest.
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:32.159
And that wasn't something that we had to designate before.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:40.559
So it's not something that typically I've seen provided from my mortgage servicing clients when they send over a referral for a proof of claim.
00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.360
So we're we're, you know, a little bit of back and forth.
00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:49.600
This is new information that we need that we have to uh include in that attachment to the proof of claim.
00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:51.440
Um, but we're getting used to it.
00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:56.960
Just one other variable that has to be filled out in that long and complicated attachment.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:58.879
Uh it is very complicated.
00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:05.279
And when you start having to break it down, it makes it even more manual and more complicated to do.
00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:06.559
Absolutely.
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:15.519
And like I said, when some of these debtors are coming in to save their home and have years and years of default.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.679
So you may have an attachment that goes on for years and years.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:32.320
I I I mentioned as we started that you are standing in as our co-host today for Kent, but I for neglected to ask you about your background and and the jurisdictions that you practice in.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:38.960
So why don't you tell our listeners to a little bit about yourself before we get back to the bankruptcy topic?
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:39.679
Yeah.
00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:44.159
Um, so I have been practicing almost 20 years now.
00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.440
I graduated law school in 2005.
00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:56.960
Um, and I first started out in Florida, and I started representing debtors in bankruptcy.
00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:01.840
And I did it for 10 years, and I really enjoyed it.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:07.120
But my family is in Mobile, and that's where our headquarters are now.
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:12.159
And I have an 11-year-old son, but shortly after he was born, we decided to move back.
00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:18.879
I did debtor work for a couple more years, but then eventually made the switch and joined up with Kent.
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:30.000
And since then, I've been representing creditors only in bankruptcy and other various FDCPA claims and some foreclosure actions as well.
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.440
Uh, so I've been with Kent for six years now.
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:35.519
In what states do you practice?
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.120
Yeah, so I practice, I've got my first license in Florida.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:40.639
That was in 2006.
00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:53.519
And 2014, when I moved to Alabama, I got my license there, which required taking another bar exam years after graduating law school because Florida isn't really friendly with other states.
00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.120
And then I just got admitted to Tennessee, or I'm actually waiting.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.440
I've been approved and I'm waiting to be sworn in.
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.279
That should be any week now.
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:02.639
Very good.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.480
Have fun in Nashville for that.
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:06.639
Yeah, I've heard.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.039
Um, I'm excited about that.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:14.639
All right, let's let's jump back into our topic and some of the rule changes that have gone into effect.
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:19.120
Not just fee changes took place in December, but I think some rules changed as well.
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:20.000
That's right.
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:25.600
So we had the difference and the breakdown on the 410A form.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:42.960
Probably the only other major change or or one change that people have been talking about is they changed some of the ways that a creditor or anyone can claim unclaimed funds in a bankruptcy.
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:47.519
Um generally, it's a pretty cumbersome process.
00:13:48.000 --> 00:14:02.960
Um, it takes a lot of validation on behalf of the claimant, which there's no reason why it shouldn't, but um, it's been so cumbersome that I think a lot of um recipients have shied away from claiming that.
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.279
They did make some adjustments.
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.840
I think there's still a long way to go.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:13.679
Um, but I think that at least they recognize that there need to be some changes in that area.
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:24.320
So they're trying to make that a little bit easier for people to request those unclaimed funds when they find out that they are owed some money that are held in those unclaimed funds accounts.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:29.840
So those are the probably the three main changes that took into effect in December.
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.240
Let me talk a little bit about loss mitigation in your jurisdictions.
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:39.039
Do bankruptcy courts engage in the loss mitigation process with debtors?
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:42.559
Well, I'll tell you, so I told you a little bit about my background.
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:49.759
I started on the debtor side in Florida that happened to be at Pensacola, which is really 50 minutes from here.
00:14:49.919 --> 00:15:15.840
And right as I left there, which was 2014, and that district, which is the Northern District of Florida, they were rolling out the mandatory mortgage mediation, modification mediation, so that in that district, anytime a person filed a chapter 13, there was a mandatory mediation between the mortgage servicer and the debtor.
00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.440
I didn't get to practice a lot of that, but I did some.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:41.840
Various districts have these loss mitigation portals where the debtor and debtor's counsel apply, and the servicer can communicate directly with borrower's counsel and the borrower through the portal.
00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:51.679
But just a suggestion and a tip to the servicers out there that the judges in those districts do take it very seriously and do want your participation in that.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.960
And there are certain deadlines and certain requirements.
00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:01.679
You know, we will do our best as your attorneys to keep you up abreast of what is going on and the status of it.
00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:11.279
But it's very vital that we also get information on how things are progressing to make sure that uh that loss mitigation portal is timely, timely updated.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.160
So right.
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.559
That's the thing that the judges want to see.
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:26.960
You know, this is debtor's court in bankruptcy, and the last thing that they want to see is a debtor doing everything that they need to do, and there not be enough communication from the other side.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.839
So I think judges are pretty sensitive to that.
00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.240
So give me three top issues you're seeing in bankruptcy court right now.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:37.200
What's what's trending the trending legal fad you see?
00:17:37.759 --> 00:18:00.559
Well, so I think we talked about this before, but it's still an issue, and that is the response to notice of final cure and just the different ways that each district's even within a state, handle that, and the best way for a creditor to protect themselves.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.359
Some trustees always file the notice of final cure, some sometimes do, some don't file it at all.
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:08.960
Sometimes there's a hearing.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:16.799
So without uniformity, I think that the servicer just needs to make sure that a tiling response is filed.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:21.440
And you know, it's just simply do you agree that the pre-petition arrears are cured?
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:24.559
And do you agree that all the post petition payments have been made?
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:25.599
I say simply.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.000
Sometimes it can get more complicated than that.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.920
But the first step is making sure that that response is filed.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:42.480
And then I kind of just go with the flow, depending on what that jurisdiction is going to do, as long as I know that my response has been filed, I'm going to attend any hearing.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:56.160
But because it's so ununiform, depends on the district, what our next step is, but we just have to make sure that that response is filed and that it's accurate, and sometimes it's not, and we need to get in there and amend it, and that's okay too.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:02.559
Yeah, it's a very important legal issue that the servicers need to be aware of and some of the consequences.
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.599
We already have one state court reported decision in Pennsylvania from an appellate court.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:16.559
In that instance, the the mortgage of record on the proof of claim sold the loan and transferred the loan to somebody else.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.960
That person did not file a transfer of claim in the bankruptcy court.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.200
So guess where the notice of final cure went?
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:23.599
Right.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:25.920
It went to that prior servicer.
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:37.440
When the new lender went and filed a foreclosure, the debtor's counsel filed a motion to dismiss it saying, My loan is current by virtue of my bankruptcy chapter 13 discharge.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:44.799
And the trial court and the appellate court agreed with them and throughout the uh uh throughout the uh foreclosure.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:52.720
And the fact of the matter was the guy hadn't reached a final cure, but because nobody responded to it, it was deemed deemed current.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.039
So we're to be wise.
00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:04.799
You know, if you if you take a loan as a servicer while it's in bankruptcy, make sure you get an assignment recorded and a transfer of claim on file.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.839
So the court knows for notices purposes.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:08.960
Absolutely.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:14.319
Uh that so you asked me for three, I'll give you another one, and I'm kind of dealing with this.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:26.960
It's kind of a it's related to a response to notice of final cure, but it it's when a payment notice of payment change isn't filed at all or isn't filed on on time.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.640
So that can create all a host of issues.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:43.200
But for example, in this case, we've got a dispute, and the debtor doesn't agree with my what I've filed as a response and it was the final cure for my client.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.039
So I'm just digging in, I'm going through month by month.
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.759
Here's what was due, here's what was paid.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:57.440
And then I've noticed on my client's pay history that that payment doesn't match with the notice of payment a change that was filed with court.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.960
And come to find out they did a new escrow analysis, the escrow payment changed.
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:08.640
We didn't file the notice of payment change, so nothing is reconciling.
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:17.680
So that can that's just one example of not filing a timely notice of payment change, how that can throw a wrench in everything.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:19.759
That's a very good point.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:21.680
Uh number three.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:22.240
There it is.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:23.200
Number three.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.400
Are you seeing an uptick in motions for relief or any issues related to those?
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:47.039
No, uh, one thing I've I've noticed, and this is kind of really more with the districts, but there's a couple of judges in particular in Alabama who are being very strict about approving modifications, even when if it's in everyone's benefit.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:59.599
Um, and that's if if the modification is filed after the fact, um they kind of take offense to asking for permission to modify something after everyone signed it.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:16.559
So now in these two districts, we have to submit a request to modify with all the unsigned documents and ask for the court to approve it before all the steps have been gone through in order to modify it, which makes sense.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.799
We should be getting approval, but this is something that the servicers aren't used to.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.400
And they're sending me the modification paperwork signed.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:30.400
And in those instances in these districts, I have to go back and say, hold the phone, start over.
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.680
We can't do this until the judge says it's okay.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.359
That's good.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:47.039
I can tell you, I in the last year, we've had a few issues in in Pennsylvania now relating to where the person was in bankruptcy and a sale occurred while they were in bankruptcy.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:53.359
And uh some good issues percolating up about can you get retroactive relief from the state?
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.000
Can you annul the stay to validate the sale?
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:03.599
And in the one instance which is getting litigated, and God, and it it's better than a law school exam.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:12.319
It has so many issues about a third party in competitive bidding bought the property and it went through the state court.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.519
The debtor never objected or never said anything to the state court about the validity of the sale.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:23.599
And the state court issues an order confirming the validity of the sale, and a deed is issued and recorded.
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:30.559
And after all that, the debtor goes into bankruptcy court and now says the sale was full in violation of the state.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:35.359
So we have like Bruckerfeldman issues about overturning a state court judgment.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.160
The debtor could have gone there and could have raised the issue.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:45.200
We have issues of section 549, which is a very useful section to a third-party purchaser.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:53.359
The legal issues and uh that have come up in the case is a third-party competitive bidder at a foreclosure sale or tax sale.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:01.519
I didn't realize this myself, but the issue is becoming can that person be considered a quote unquote purchaser under the bankruptcy code?
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:02.480
That's one of the issues.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:04.079
Oh my goodness.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:05.039
Wow.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.680
We have a similar, we have a similar case.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.799
Actually, it's a like a friend of the firm is having a case.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:12.880
We had this case and won.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:25.599
And the issue was the foreclosure sale took place prior to the bankruptcy, but the foreclosure deed was not executed and delivered until after the bankruptcy had been filed.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:35.599
Now we've got um some pretty clear case law in Alabama, I think in Mississippi as well, that once that foreclosure sale has been conducted, that's it.
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.240
Once the gavel falls, that's the end.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:49.599
And we have we had some success a few years ago um filing after that bankruptcy had been filed, um, the foreclosure had taken place prior to the petition.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:58.319
The deed wasn't executed until after we filed a motion to confirm that the stay was had terminated and the judge ruled in our favor.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:03.920
Well, someone else is fighting that same battle in one of our districts, so we'll see how that goes.
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.839
But um certainly the timing of petition, the timing of the petition can create some very complex facts.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:23.119
It does now, and it it used to be easier to determine that we knew a date that the sheriff sale was, and we knew a date and a time that a borrower filed a petition.
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:36.960
But now, with instantaneous electronic submission and with bidding for some of our sales being online, it it's getting down to literally looking at the minute and second hands on the clock as to was this filed timely.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:53.599
So and um one thing that the judge said when we had success a couple years ago was as a matter of policy, it's better for us to have this bright line rule of when when the show ends, and then that's at the foreclosure sale.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:02.400
It's not better for anybody to have mud muddy water um with respect to when that interest it is extinguished.
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:03.839
And I agree with the judge.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.759
Of course I do, though, right?
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.880
Well, I thank you for being our co-host.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.599
You've been a former guest, but now you're a co-host.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:22.799
But as a guest co-host, do we still get to ask you Kent's last question of if you could go back and talk to your 20-year-old self, what advice would you give yourself?
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:28.079
Now, you answered this, I think, once before, but do you have a new answer or similar answer?
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:28.720
I do.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:38.079
I did answer it before, and I will uh I'll remind the listeners what I would have told my 20-year-old self was don't borrow any student loans.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.000
Um, and I would still tell my 20-year-old self that.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:54.960
Um, but I think on a more personal note, one thing I would tell my 20-year-old self is don't be so hard on yourself and give yourself a break every now and then.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:06.400
I think um the perfectionist in me is screaming, no, but you know, life's too short, and especially a lot of us in this industry um don't give ourselves a break.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.279
So we got to remember to do that every now and then.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.359
Excellent advice, and thank you.
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.799
Thank you to our listeners out there, and we'll talk to you soon.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:25.200
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00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.079
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00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:32.720
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