00:00:00Chapter 1: Why Transitions Don’t Happen Overnight
00:08:00Chapter 2: Backlash, Behaviour and Broken Narratives
00:18:30Chapter 3: Designing Markets That People Say Yes To
00:32:30Chapter 4: Pragmatic Leadership for Systemic Change
ÜBER DIESE EPISODE
Guests:
Michael Liebreich – Managing Partner, EcoPragma Capital & CEO, Liebreich Associates
Rory Sutherland – Vice Chairman, Ogilvy UK; behavioural science commentator
What Next? Leadership Conversations for a Better Future explores how leaders can help build future-fit economies, bringing fresh perspectives, provocative questions and conversations with leaders shaping the future of markets, business and society.
As the climate and energy transition enters a more contested phase, public confidence and political support are becoming harder to sustain. In this episode of What Next?, Lindsay Hooper and Marc Kahn explore why changing markets now requires changing minds.
Michael Liebreich and Rory Sutherland bring together energy systems thinking and behavioural science to unpack why backlash has emerged, how misinformation and poor incentives undermine progress, and why leadership must shift from moral persuasion to practical delivery. They argue that loss of trust has been driven not only by political polarisation, but also by unrealistic narratives, absolutist thinking and the promotion of costly or ineffective solutions. The conversation highlights the importance of affordability, credibility and human behaviour in building momentum for the transition - and why pragmatic, market-shaping solutions matter more than ever.
Key Takeaways:
1. Changing markets depends on changing minds as much as changing technologies.
2. Climate action succeeds when it is affordable, practical and trusted.
3. Transitions work by scaling the new before shutting down the old.
4. Behavioural insight is as important as engineering in designing solutions.
5. Leaders must focus on credible delivery, not performative signals.
Quotes
“The transition isn’t dead — it’s slow, uneven and exactly how real transitions have always worked.” Michael Liebreich
“If you present people with a deal where they are only a loser, don’t be surprised when they reject it.” Rory Sutherland
Credits
Presented by: Lindsay Hooper, Chief Executive, CISL and Marc Kahn, Chief Strategy & Sustainability Officer, Investec
Produced by: Carl Homer (Cambridge TV) & Alexa Sellwood
Executive Producer: Gillian Secrett
In partnership with: Investec
Listen and Subscribe:
Available on all major podcast platforms or visit the Leadership Hub on the CISL website or Investec Focus for more episodes and insights.
Disclaimer:
The views in this podcast are those of the contributors, and don’t necessarily represent those of CISL, the University of Cambridge, or Investec, and should not be taken as advice or a recommendation. University of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership · Investec · CISL Leadership Hub · Investec Focus Radio
Michael Liebreich – Managing Partner, EcoPragma Capital & CEO, Liebreich Associates
Rory Sutherland – Vice Chairman, Ogilvy UK; behavioural science commentator
What Next? Leadership Conversations for a Better Future explores how leaders can help build future-fit economies, bringing fresh perspectives, provocative questions and conversations with leaders shaping the future of markets, business and society.
As the climate and energy transition enters a more contested phase, public confidence and political support are becoming harder to sustain. In this episode of What Next?, Lindsay Hooper and Marc Kahn explore why changing markets now requires changing minds.
Michael Liebreich and Rory Sutherland bring together energy systems thinking and behavioural science to unpack why backlash has emerged, how misinformation and poor incentives undermine progress, and why leadership must shift from moral persuasion to practical delivery. They argue that loss of trust has been driven not only by political polarisation, but also by unrealistic narratives, absolutist thinking and the promotion of costly or ineffective solutions. The conversation highlights the importance of affordability, credibility and human behaviour in building momentum for the transition - and why pragmatic, market-shaping solutions matter more than ever.
Key Takeaways:
1. Changing markets depends on changing minds as much as changing technologies.
2. Climate action succeeds when it is affordable, practical and trusted.
3. Transitions work by scaling the new before shutting down the old.
4. Behavioural insight is as important as engineering in designing solutions.
5. Leaders must focus on credible delivery, not performative signals.
Quotes
“The transition isn’t dead — it’s slow, uneven and exactly how real transitions have always worked.” Michael Liebreich
“If you present people with a deal where they are only a loser, don’t be surprised when they reject it.” Rory Sutherland
Credits
Presented by: Lindsay Hooper, Chief Executive, CISL and Marc Kahn, Chief Strategy & Sustainability Officer, Investec
Produced by: Carl Homer (Cambridge TV) & Alexa Sellwood
Executive Producer: Gillian Secrett
In partnership with: Investec
Listen and Subscribe:
Available on all major podcast platforms or visit the Leadership Hub on the CISL website or Investec Focus for more episodes and insights.
Disclaimer:
The views in this podcast are those of the contributors, and don’t necessarily represent those of CISL, the University of Cambridge, or Investec, and should not be taken as advice or a recommendation. University of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership · Investec · CISL Leadership Hub · Investec Focus Radio
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