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[upbeat music] Cheers to another episode of the Wine Notes podcast.
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I'm your guide, AJ Winesuttle, on this journey of stories showcasing the people behind the wonderful world of wine, where we dive into conversations ranging from terroir, viticulture, to favorite music, superpowers, and more.
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Please enjoy this episode of the Wine Notes podcast. Michael, thank you so much for taking time to be on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. It is my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. Oh, so much so. Um,
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the very first time that we met, it was December 3rd, 2021. Mm. And, uh, it was almost [sighs]... To, to... When I first heard about you... Let me back up just a lit- little bit.
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I was doing a sparkling report and, uh, heard from Beth at Dion. And sh- she was like, "Have you tried Michael's Bubbles?" And I'm like, "Michael? Who's this Michael Lundin guy?" Yeah.
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And she's like, "Oh, you gotta try him." And then in speaking with Dan and Gene from Corollary, they were like, "Oh, you've gotta try Michael's 2012 Bunkor- Bunker- Bunker Hill Blanc de Blanc."
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And I'm like, "Okay, this is the second time I've heard Michael's name come up. Can you help me get in contact with him?" And so Dan, you know, hooked us up together, and wow, I'll never forget that day. Mm.
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That was, that was an amazing time just to, to s- sit, not... We... So this was laid out a little bit differently at that time. Right.
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It was in the prior iteration of this whole space and this whole adventure, so you got to see a really critical transition in this whole adventure. But- Yeah...
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uh, yeah, the wine stands out in that prior environment that clearly you know the wine's good [laughs] 'Cause the environment was not. [laughs] Well, no, it was, it was, it was still great. It was fine. Yeah.
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It was just you and I doing a thing. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Uh, before we get much further into it, can I pour us a little bit of a blind wine? Sure. If the... Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh. Mm-hmm. And fortunately, my, uh,
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my seasonal allergies seem to have abated enough that I can actually smell again for the first time in about a month. Oh. So- Well, that's... Springtime will, will do that to you. [exhales] Yeah. Yeah.
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Uh, so as I tell everybody, and as I, you know, said before the interview, I try to find some sort of connection. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think I did an okay job with the connection here. Um, you know, we'll- Mm...
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we'll see as we, as we dive into this a little bit. Mm-hmm. Hmm. You know, and, uh, feel free to say whatever you want. Mm-hmm. Uh, if you wanna say, "It's yummy," "It's yucky," whatever.
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[laughs] It is completely- Ew, yucky. Ew, yucky. No. No. No, it smells beautiful. Uh, and not only has prettiness, but has this, like, beguiling intrigue thing that for me is the absolute pinnacle of pinot noir- Yeah...
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especially from Oregon. Yes. And not that I... I suspect this is from Oregon. It smells like Willamette Valley to me, but- Well, there's, there's-... continue on...
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there, there's probably a good chance it's from Oregon. Yeah. [laughs] Mm. Would you like a spit cup or anything? Mm-hmm. I don't know how much... Yeah.
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And for me, this is actually the- Mm... the first time tasting this wine- Mm... uh, myself. Mm-hmm. You know, so it was, it's a nice little intrigue sip for myself. Mm. Yeah. Wow, beautiful,
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textural, seamless. It is familiar in a way, and I'm trying to figure out why. So I'm gonna meditate on that- Yeah... in the, the back burner while we talk about everything else. But- Yeah... that's a very nice wine.
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Well, I'm glad you like. Yeah. Um, going back a little bit to, to 2000, um, you were into wine, but not like you are today. Right. And your dad had just recently, um, retired from, you know, uh, the, the state of Oregon.
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Right. And his retirement project was to plant grapes, uh, there out, out at your property at Pro- uh, Poverty Bend Road. Uh, uh, but I'm curious, why was it important to him to plant grapes?
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You know, that's actually a fabulous question that I'm not sure I know the answer to, but I'm gonna ask him the next time I see him.
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[laughs] I'm fortunate enough to still have him, and, uh, get to see him somewhat frequently, because the, the why is, uh, is a little uncertain. I mean, it's, it is his home farm where he grew up.
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He is intimately connected with that land, even though he was never really a farmer. Right. Um, and I think it was curiosity.
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I, I gained a certain kind of curiosity from both of my parents, a lot of curiosity, and that's driven me. And I, I think he was, "What's this wine thing all about?"
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Um, you know, he'd first planted grapes in the early '80s. Uh, the oldest vines from that vineyard at home are actually 41 years old now. Wow. Gewürztraminer. He got cuttings from Meyer Redford at Amity- Mm-hmm...
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um, and had put those in the ground, you know- Right... not knowing what he was doing, but, but curious. Right.
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Um, and so for me, uh, it falls into, you know, one of many categories that's just been a resultant serendipity in my adventure, um, how I could fall into that place and have the, you know, the, the somewhat modest but otherwise generous-...
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gift from my father of, "Here's a little piece of dirt, and let's put some vines in and see what happens," and ended up being this little seed that sprouted into an entire career. Right. Yeah, that was
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amazing how, you know, you went to school for journalism, uh, and you also, you know, had, uh, an interest in architecture. So I went into school for- Sorry... architecture. Darn it. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um, no, it's, it's all right. Yeah, I, I was proud to be, to accepted into this accredited program at the University of Oregon, and quickly found out it wasn't gonna fit for me.
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I needed to explore, and that track was, was quite narrow. So I studied everything I could, 38 departments. I was fascinated by everything, and came out with a journalism degree. Very nice.
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And then, you know, you did your, your little piece in journalism about architecture. Right, [laughs] right. [laughs] Got to use my degree one time, I got paid for it, and I was like, "I know. I'm out." Yeah.
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And the rest is history. [laughs] Seems to be. Um, one of those places along the way, you know, in your wine journey, was, uh, working with the team at Domaine Serene. Mm-hmm.
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I believe you were there with Drew Voit, Tony Rynders- Mm-hmm... and Eric Berg. Yes. Eric Berg came in kind of at the end, late in my tenure- Right... but we overlapped a little bit, yeah, and we're still good friends.
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Yes. And I, I love, you know, how that team was, like, together, and now everybody's kinda just- Mm-hmm... you know, doing amazing things today. It's, it's really nice. Yeah.
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It's a very fun thing to look back on in that context 'cause, like, like a lot of life, you look back to younger days, and it seems so simple, and you didn't realize how good you had it- Right... and how fun.
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You know, we were making great wine, we were having a good time, but it was, it was easy, and it wasn't stressful. We enjoyed each other and helped each other.
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And then, yeah, as we've, you know, gone our similar but different paths in this business, um, it's great to have people that know your history and be able to help each other. And, you know- Right...
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I sell grapes to Eric. Uh, Drew actually, through another piece of serendipity, introduced me to the opportunity that became this winery 13 years ago or more. Right. Uh- That is- So yeah, it's been, um,
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you know, not to overstate it, I'm not one for hyperbole, but I, the most valuable piece of this whole journey for me has really become about the people,
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um, the people that have helped me, uh, the fabulous people I have working for me, some of which have been more than 10 years, two of which. Wow.
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Um, the great friends out in the industry where we help each other and have a great time. And I didn't really see any of that coming.
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You know, as I fell into wine, it was, it was delicious, and fun, and artistic, and, uh, you know, cultural.
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It was all these things, but I, I never saw it as a conduit to, uh, or at least I never saw that the relationships would be what would be the most satisfying, as well as critical, you know? Right.
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Um, those farming relationships, the sales relationships, the, all that stuff. It, it is. It is all critical. And I, I heard a story that, um, like, the first day when Eric came to work at Domaine Serene,
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and Drew asked him a question. He was like, "So tell me about this modeling career that you have." [laughs] Right. Uh, how much razzing did Eric get from the team about modeling? Oh.
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Or was that just kind of a, an a- Vast quantities. Vast quantities, I'm sure. But it was, I mean, it was always in, it was in good fun. Of course. Right. Um, you know, he,
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I think he was in that phase, you know, trying to, trying to get past that era, not because there was anything wrong with that work. He did great work, and he enjoyed it, and he was good at it. Right.
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But he was, like, looking to launch this wine adventure, and here people keep razzing him about, you know, what was before. Right. But yeah. Yeah.
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No, it, it's, I always thought it was a very interesting, like, small little tidbit in, in his, uh, in his world, and I think he still does a little bit here and there every now and then. I don't know, but he should.
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I, yeah, I think so.
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[laughs] And it's a good reminder in a way that I often think about, that one of the things that makes this business so interesting is that the people you meet in it tend to choose to work in this industry.
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And so it brings a lot of diverse stories and backgrounds, and a lot of intention to be in this place. But it is a reminder that, eh, people have done all kinds of crazy things before. Oh, yeah. It's pretty fun.
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It is very fun. Yeah. Speaking of fun, I think you have a bottle of sparkling here. Yes, indeed. Uh, shall we- I would like to share it. That would be great. Thank you. Yes. Uh, so I, I don't need to pour this blind.
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I'm happy to tell you what this is- All's well... while I'm pouring it. Um- Okay... but, um, you know, the story of my, of my wine adventure, of course, was
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got started with my little property at home and making a few grapes, working at other wineries, growing my project, growing these other wineries, eventually moving in here. And then in my first vintage here,
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I had the opportunity to make sparkling wine. Yes. Uh, and not only the opportunity, but the almost strict need. And so this is the very first- Ooh... sparkling cuvée I've ever produced. Oh my gosh.
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The 2011 Blanc de Noirs from La Cantera Vineyard. Wow. I have, I have goosebumps right now.Uh, I know that this vineyard is very near and dear to you.
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And, uh, you know, to get a pour of the, the very first sparkling that you did was, is quite a treat. My pleasure. My pleasure.
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Uh, it's always fun to be able to share it with people that are really not only gonna understand it, but appreciate all that's in it. Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. My pleasure. This has been a- Mm...
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fascinating, complex wine. Um, you know, this is disgorged nearly 10 and a half years now. So it is- Wow... well evolved into secondary and tertiary. Um, but it has been a spectacular bottle of wine its whole life.
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And this was, you know, um, I consider myself a very lucky person. I have, um, I've been open to opportunity, and I believe you have to work for things, but by God, I get lucky quite a lot. Very fortunate man.
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And, um, I would say beginner's luck to, [laughs] uh- [laughs]... produce a wine like this. I had the guidance, thankfully, of Rich Cushman, uh, who had made wine with these very riddling racks- Nice...
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under this glass on this table 30 years ago plus at Flynn, and of course made his Viento wines, and he was able to guide me a bit as do this, don't do this. Right.
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Um, had, yes, the La Cantera vineyard, which I've now worked with 13 years and I hope to work with for as much as 16 more years, um, that's very versatile.
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And took this block of grapes that was never gonna get all the way ripe, and decided to go a whole nother direction.
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And this then was catalyst for entire growth of a new program, uh, a new facet of my, you know, I hate to use the word passion, but in this case, it kind of fits. I've been so excited to produce sparkling wine.
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It's been fun at every level. Uh, thank God the first one turned out well, or I don't think [laughs]... this would all be looking the way that it does now. Well, I, I'm sure. It's, um...
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I know that, you know, 2011, you know, it was a little bit cooler, and like you said, you know, like that- It was a lot bit cooler... uh, that, you know, you had grapes that weren't ripening.
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And, you know, I actually have it down for later on to ask, but- Mm... we're on the topic. Yeah. Um, was it like just taking a look at what you were being presented, and like, "What are my options?"
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Or were you kind of thinking, "I'd like to dive into sparkling, and this is the perfect opportunity"? I mean, what, what was- Mm... what was happening? Um, it was, it was more the former.
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It was, I had all the intention to be making a different wine out of it. But when presented, you know, uh, the recollection was looking at the chemistry, was like, "This is ideal for sparkling."
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Um, and then that little spark of inspiration, "Well, what if?" Right. And I'd been looking, you know, maybe secretly looking for a reason. I'd always wanted to try, um,
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but wasn't confident enough, wasn't experienced enough, um, to just commit thousands of dollars worth of raw materials to this- Right... big, giant unknown.
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And so in that moment, it went from, you know, long shot left field to, "This actually may be the highest use of these grapes. This could be the best possible thing I could do with them." Right.
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And that really opened the door. It did. And, uh, taking the first sip of this, it's... Well, first, I mean, I, I, I just gotta look in the glass first, right? You can see- Mm-hmm...
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you know, that there is definitely some age to this. Yep. Yep. Which is, it's gorgeous. And then just to taste it is, um, yeah, you can get all those secondary and tertiary- Yeah... components just all right there.
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It's, it is- Yeah, everything from, like, for me, fruit, like, uh, quince paste almost, into mushroom. Yeah. I mean, like very complex.
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I have a feeling if we can be patient, it will gradually reveal actually some brighter elements. Um, but yeah, then the luxurious lovely palate. Yes. This is going to be fun to, to sip on for the next little bit here.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing. I can't thank you enough. My pleasure.
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Oh, your time at Domaine Serene gave you the, uh, you were introduced, uh, to an Italian winemaker that persuaded you to come over to, to Italy and- Mm-hmm... make some wine. Mm-hmm. Um, what I...
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First, I'll just ask a simple question. Like, what was that experience like for you? The experience of being there? Yeah. Mm. And making wine. Yeah. Oh, boy. Um, yeah, incredible. It was a, uh...
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You know, it was at a point in my life also that was, uh... I was young, and I was kind of free, except I had met this wonderful, um, beautiful, fascinating young woman that would eventually become my wife. Mm-hmm.
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And just not that less than a year before. Right.
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And so while I was in this phase that I was gonna start traveling internationally, I'd considered going to New Zealand and pursuing a degree in winemaking, all these things. Thankfully, I had this tether back home.
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[laughs] So instead of traveling out and never coming back, I, I did a stint and returned. Right. But it was, yeah, it was this, this broadening, exciting scenario, um,
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that was challenging because of course when I left, I barely spoke three words of Italian.And being out in the country, the, the apartment that I was in was above the winery in the town of Barbaresco, which is pretty tiny.
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And so, you know, it was the children of most of the people I knew who would speak English. Right. And they always wanted to practice their English and all that. Um,
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so that part was difficult, and I learned as quickly as I could, but of course the thing that I found everywhere is if you approach people earnestly and, you know, you're there to try and do hard work, there's a lot of forgiveness and effort to, to come together and understand each other no matter what.
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Right. And I've had wonderful conversations with far less linguistic power than that- [laughs]... uh, all over the world. But- Right... they, they helped me along with that. Um, but it was, it was everything from,
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you know, sort of professionally challenging, we had some interesting techniques that we were taking from Pinot Noir production, um, cold soaking and things to,
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you know, accentuate f- beautiful, fruitful elements from an indigenous varietal that is found m- only really around the town of Verduno, uh, which is one of the Barolo communes- Mm...
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called Pelaverga Piccolo, and it's very thin-skinned. In some ways it is very Pinot Noir-like. Um, and so we were trying some techniques that nobody had ever considered there before.
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Uh, shortly thereafter they made a Blanc de Noir out of the Pelaverga, I believe after conversations Mario and I had many times late into the night. Right. And so that was fascinating and fun. Um, I expected it to be
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everything different, everything new, and some of what was really wonderful was actually realizing how much was very similar. Uh, viticulture, very similar- Mm-hmm... the way we treated these vines.
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Um, you know, they were...
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It did bring into focus the difference of, you know, they're guided by tradition and in some ways, uh, you know, reinforced by law and bureaucratic need, and we here have the educational benefit of that tradition but are unbound and so can experiment freely.
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Right. Um, and it let me really meditate on the, the pros and cons of both of those things, for sure. Um, and one of the real differences that was fascinating was between how the w- the grapes were treated in the winery.
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Um, so I'd come from here where we were, you know, very quickly picking the Pinot Noir, quickly as we could, get it cold, get it into the building as fast as possible, and then slowly, gently sorting the fruit, gently de-stemming it, uh, in the ways that we are always careful with Pinot Noir because it quickly reveals, you know, how it's been mistreated, uh, or any imperfections.
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Right. And over there working with the Nebbiolo, it [laughs] was like inside out.
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We would spend all day carefully picking the fruit, and some of it was out of a respect for the vines and the respect for the process, but we would literally, our small team, would spend three-quarters of the day out in the field- Mm-hmm...
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picking from these cru vineyards of Rabbaya, uh, beautiful, beautiful Nebbiolo vineyards. And then we'd come back to the winery, and we'd slam it through this de-stemmer and crusher and must pump it into a tank.
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[laughs] And I was like, "What is ha- happening?" Um, but that was, you know... The Nebbiolo needed more... I mean, it has nuance of course- Right... and great subtlety.
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Um, but the skins are thick, and you need to get in there a bit to be able to, to be able to macerate, and so it was a real, it's a real- Wow... mind-blower. But, uh, I have always loved travel.
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I got that from my mother, who's one of the most well-traveled people I know. Right. Uh, she's been to 75 or 80 countries, I think. Holy cow.
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And, uh, you know, took me all over the place, I mean, even as young as a baby. And so I've always loved to travel, and for that piece it was, yeah, the exposure to new cultures, food of course, all that. I loved it. Mm.
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Loved it. That's... I can only imagine. Um, and then, like, being there in Italy, you were noticing how, like, almost everybody had, like, a little, you know,
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winery in their basement, and it kind of presented to you of like, "Oh, I could do this." Right. And, you know, I always use the term, you know, finding Oregon's little hidden gems, and,
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you know, the way that I came across you was to me very much how you would come across, like, a little- Mm... unknown kinda Italian, you know, wine producer.
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And, you know, once you find that little gem it's like, "Holy cow." Yeah. A, a fun discovery. Well, thank you for the kind and complimentary words. Of course.
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Um, but that was definitely, that was definitely the experience.
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You know, I had come from, um, for this area, somewhat sizable and sophisticated, uh, well-funded operations like WillaKenzie and Domaine Serene, and so that was where my head in wine had sort of started. Right.
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And it was that revelation about, oh, no, like, when you get down to this very handcrafted, artisanal level, um, this is wine also. Mm-hmm. And what a wonderful experience. What a wonderful way to do it.
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And thinking, well, I didn't have a lot, you know... I didn't h- the one thing I didn't have was a lot of money, but I was like, "Oh, I could make wine in a basement and make fabulous wine- Right... just this much."
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Right.It was a great, uh, yeah, a great realization that allowed me to move forward and explore this whole journey. Yeah. Which, yeah, still feels like,
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uh, you know, that, that kicks off this whole thing I think and talk about sometimes where, [clears throat] um, you know, part of my story is that I'm a
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l- you know, a native Oregonian, um, really a local, and doing this at very modest means. Uh, there are a few of us, but not very many. Right.
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And it has been a long, slow journey because this is a business that requires so much capital. And so to try and do it- [laughs]... without capital is kind of absurd. Yeah.
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But I have, uh, long been someone who likes a challenge, [laughs] I have realized about myself. Right.
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Um, and, uh, some would say, you know, maybe do things the hard way, but for me, it's really been about the, the method and the vision. Like, and wanting to stick to that, whatever it is, even if that's difficult. Right.
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And, and it also gives you a sense of humbleness and gratefulness as well, which very much comes across in everything that you do. Mm. Well, thank you. That piece is, is important to me.
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It's, um, yeah, it's the, it's the how, not just the what- Right...
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that has grown more and more important as I get older and I, you know, ask myself, "What does this all mean, and what am I doing, and why am I doing it, and how am I doing it?" Right. Is the important part. Right.
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Um, and so it's grown from, you know, a playtime, artistic, artisanal endeavor into something that I could feel, like, excited and proud about the life that I put together, what I was able to build, how I was able to do it, that I can employ a team and provide them with good jobs and offer healthcare, and they can help me, you know, earnestly farm these properties and produce wines that I'm proud of.
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Yeah. No, it is... That is absolutely amazing. I'm gonna ask a question. This is more ignorance on my part. Mm. But since you have time, um, in making wine in Italy- Mm-hmm...
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I've always, in the back of my head, have been curious. So, like, in, in Amarone, you know, they have... They bring in the grapes, and they dry them out. Right. And then they make wine. I mean, that, that's...
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I know there's more pieces and parts involved, but at a high level. But that's what, yeah, defines Amarone, for sure. Um, and I've been curious. W- we explore so much and experiment so much out here in Oregon,
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and I know it's a process, but so is sparkling. Yeah. I don't... I, I'm just... Can, can you give me some insight as to why we don't do that? Oh, the, the drying- Yeah... ripasso or other things like that? Right. Whew.
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Well, it's a giant pain in the ass. [laughs] Uh, I'm sure, uh, I'm sure some people have tried it. It's, it's quite difficult.
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Um, you know, to my understanding, I toured a little bit in Amarone and some smaller cellars, and they were able to show us the process. They essentially have these racks or mats that are not very big- Right...
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uh, that they carefully lay the grapes into, and they stack them up, and they have a little air moving through them. And it takes, if I remember, I'm not exactly sure, I think takes several months- Mm-hmm...
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uh, or at least six weeks perhaps, for the process to really go far enough.
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And then they have to go back through and sort all of it because some of them will have gone moldy and rotted, and they have to take that and just use the good ones. Right.
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Um, but I believe, like many parts of style, and, you know, I could quickly turn this into a conversation about what climate change is doing to wine worldwide- Right...
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which is through the changing composition and through the changing logistics, what we have is a change in style almost everywhere. Mm-hmm.
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They were adding intensity and, uh, extract and more alcohol and whatever through this process in a region that was quite marginal, and I think they often struggled to get grapes fully ripe. Okay.
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And so you could bring them in, and then it could rain and do everything else, and you could dry them out and get these more, you know, you get a change of characteristic, but then these more intense grapes as well.
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Well, at least in the last 20 years, 25 years, getting grapes ripe, with the exception of this vintage, of course- Mm-hmm... is not that difficult anymore. Right. And so we... I don't think we need to do it.
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There w- there's probably people out there trying it right now because there are passionate experimenters everywhere, of course. Of course. Of course.
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Uh, one thing we have done, and I believe the first iteration that I heard about was Mimi Castille, and then I played with it at Illahee when I was making those wines, and I've used it since, um,
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is actually to more or less do an early pruning before harvest- Okay... and then let them dehydrate on the vine, which is kind of a different maneuver.
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But if you make, you know, a gross cut, let's say, and you cut off- Oh... an arm- Right... pre-harvest, the grapes are 95% of the way there. Right.
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They get disconnected from the trunk and the root system, and, you know, there may be a little bit of translocation that happens before they stop, but then the rest is just dehydration.
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And so that has been used to make some very interesting- That would be interesting... dessert style wines- Right... and just kind of adding intensity.
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Um, I've done it with Riesling, I've done it with Syrah, uh, Pinot Gris. Wow. Yeah. That's the first time I've heard of that. Yeah. It's, um-You know, I mean, it's difficult to control a little bit- Right...
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and how far do you wanna take it, and you don't know what the weather's gonna be. If it starts raining like crazy- Right... uh, it can become kind of a problem. But, uh, yeah, again, our, our vintages are somewhat...
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If you've done your farming well- Right... if you've done your work out in the field and you've kept them ripe and the vines balanced and all that, getting ripe isn't that difficult anymore. Right.
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Not like it was 30 years ago- Right... 40 years ago. Yeah, most definitely. Oh, thank you. I... So- Some of that's just supposition, but a educated- Right... guess. Yeah. Yeah. No. I, I...
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Part of me, I would love to study more of the Amarone process and, you know, buy, like, a ton of grapes and just see how much of a pain in the ass it is- Right, and what happens... and just see what happens. Totally.
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I, I would... I, I think that would be so much fun. Totally. You know, there is, um, just to go on the, the supposition part, we do have vintages, of course, that are very dry. Uh, we'll go almost 100 days without rain,
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uh, and by the time we hit harvest time, the vines may have stopped, and then they will start dehydrating on the vine. Right.
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And so we have experienced, I believe, some of what those characteristics would yield when you take these... You know, they've gone past ideal ripeness- Of course... into whatever comes next. Right.
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And it's a little bit similar to if you had picked them and let them dehydrate. Right.
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And some of those characteristics can be kind of cool, but some of them definitely go against what we think of as the typical flavor profile. Of course.
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And so, yeah, some may like them and some may not, but dried flowers and dried fruits can be kind of intriguing. Yeah, I think that would be very intriguing. Yeah. Um,
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I'm trying to find a, a good way to kind of talk about this, but it kind of falls in line with what I was saying earlier, how much of a little hidden gem you are. Mm. Uh, last Saturday,
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I was at, um, Back Country Wine Bar in downtown Portland. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Jack was pouring. The very first wine that he poured was, you know, one of your bruts. Yep. And, um, you know, he sat down. I'm like,
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"You don't even need to tell me anything about-" [laughs] "... Michael's wines. I know him. He's great. I love all of his wines. Thank you so much." Uh, and he's like, "Oh." I mean, he wasn't expecting that obviously.
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Mm. Right. Uh, but he's like, "The reason that I wanted to pour you this first is because to find a $40 sparkling in Oregon that is out of this world is completely rare." And so, you know, just...
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I don't know. There's gonna be so many examples- Mm... I'm sure that, you know, I've already talked about and I will continue to talk about of, like, how unique, approachable- Mm...
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and wonderful, you know, everything that you do is. I mean, it's just, it is absolutely wonderful. Well, that's a lot of compliment. Thank you. Yes. Um,
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yeah, Jack has been a good supporter with that wine, and I appreciate it because, uh, i- you know, there's a little bit of no small amount of education required for us sparkling producers in the Willamette Valley.
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You know, in our own backyard, we've got a lot of people who, who understand what's happening here, but farther afield than that- Right...
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uh, we're still doing a lot of education that of the, the caliber of traditional method sparkling that we can produce here is very high, and a lot of people don't know that. Um- Right...
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so of course, there's lots of people who do take the opportunity then to turn that into a much higher bottle price, and that can be well worth it, of course.
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Um, you know, I, I can command very nice prices for some of these wines.
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But I've always felt it very important to have a wine like that that can go out into the world and tell the story and be relevant in the broader market- Right...
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and with a little bit of luck and hard work, even very competitive or outperform lots of others at that price. Um- Yeah... the, the value, it becomes...
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You know, obviously we don't make much money on the wines, but it becomes a great calling card. It does the marketing for us, for sure. Most definitely.
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And I, I've heard rumors that you're part of, like, a, a, a tasting group, you know, for sparkling wine. You know, so, like, Kenny from A- Arabella's- Mm-hmm... Dan and Jean from Corollary. Mm-hmm.
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Who else is, is in that group? Um, well, there's a, there's a, a few different things happening, but the tasting group, if, if I'm thinking about what you're thinking, uh, 'cause there's another group- Mm...
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you know, spearheaded by, by Dan and Jean really that's trying to assemble the sparkling industry as sort of a trade group. Right. Uh- I, I call it the Sparkling Revolution myself. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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[laughs] Um, but I'm actually a part of a, a different group additionally where we do a lot of tastings. Okay.
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And that was what I was thinking of, but I'm not sure is what you're referring- I was probably thinking of the Dan and Jean one- Right... probably. Yeah. Right. Right. Um, and that is still coalescing.
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Um, you know, I don't wanna talk too much out of school, and I don't feel like I necessarily officially represent the group or anything. I'm very happy to be a part of it.
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It's a group of us that are looking to absolutely, you know, push the envelope about quality potential and then tell that story. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's, uh... It's in its infancy, and it's still- Of course...
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figuring out who it is and, uh, you know, what it looks like and what it's called and, and all of that- Right. Right... still. Yeah. No, I, I,
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uh, I think I was just strictly talking about just the wine itself.Um, I thought, you know, that there was a group of you that would get together and just dissect- [clears throat] Yeah...
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you know, the Or- you know, Oregon sparkling or just sparkling or- Yeah... champagne and- Well, I can talk about that, for sure. And, uh, yeah.
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So, um, one name that, I mean, I have a lot of respect for Marcus Goodfellow. Mm. Has produced a lot of great wines- Yes...
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in the past, and has, you know, been a prolific, uh, connoisseur of champagne for a very long time, and thankfully got into the game of producing a little while ago. Yes. Um, and he and I,
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a few years back, were like, "Let's, let's start examining this more closely." Right. And of course, it's a fabulous excuse to just drink champagne with your buddies, but it is really- Yes. [laughs]...
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uh, there was some really important work. And so we started to organize some tastings where we weren't, we weren't working too hard at it, but we were doing blind flights with a theme. Um,
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and, you know, we did one here that was blanc de blancs. Uh, we've done another that was sort of blended bruts. I think we have a blanc de noir that we need to get to, and it would be champagne and Oregon. Mm-hmm.
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And we blind taste them all, and talk, make notes, all that, and reveal and talk some more, of course. Of course. And then we would run analysis on all the wines, and we would... Laboratory analysis- Wow...
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and we'd see what's going on here, and how does that, how does that relate to our experience of the wines? Right.
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Um, and the refreshing news was that many of the better Oregon, Willamette Valley usually, wines could absolutely hang qualitatively with the better champagnes. Absolutely.
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You know, they were clearly from two different places- Right...
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but there was the fabulous experience of traditional method sparkling that was being achieved in both cases, and one tasted like champagne and one tasted like Oregon.
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Um, to the last couple times, the very, very best bottles have all been champagne, but it was a definite, um, mm, you know, obvious revelation that what we were doing was- Right... we were getting there.
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We were getting there. Right. And there was plenty of champagne, expensive, um, known names- [laughs]... should've been very good wines that placed quite poorly in the whole thing. Wow. Um, and so it was illuminating.
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And then there was other parts that were illuminating, like when the analysis would come back and we would see, you know, acidities in champagne that were surprisingly low.
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[laughs] And it's been their experience moving into climate change and how they're, uh, making moves to try and, uh, shore that up, and what to do about that, allowing the older grape varietals again, talking about potentially expanding regions to include cooler areas, things like that.
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Right. But, um, the... You know, historically, you'd say champagne and you'd think of this, you know, intense, you know, structural cut, and in most cases, the Oregon wines were brighter. Nice. Yeah.
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Uh, wasn't always better, but that was... It was, it was illuminating, for sure. I bet. And then getting into,
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um, yeah, a lot of ML complete wines, uh, from the Old World, and I suspect there may also be a case there of, uh, you know, pursuing natural style.
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Uh, they could get to bottle without filtration, without fining, and have a more hands-off direct line all the way through to the end. Wow. That would be...
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I would love to just sit back and just hear and listen- [laughs]... of course taste, but, like, that would, that would- Yeah... I can only imagine.
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And I have to say, when I saw that Marcus released his first sparkling- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... over the spring, I was like, "Oh, yes please." [laughs] Yeah. Yep, yep. Yep. For sure.
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Yeah, great stuff, and he's been working on it for years very patiently, and, uh, I have definitely come to believe that that is probably the single most important ingredient in producing sparkling wine is patience.
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Yes, it is. Very much so. Um, you know, we talked a little bit about, um, the property, you know, in, back in 2000, you know, um, planting grapes there f- you know, with your dad.
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Uh, and so you're the third generation, and, uh, your son will be the fourth generation. Mm-hmm. Um, and I remember visiting the property for your, like- Oh, right... your, your, your kickoff party,
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and I tried to look in my notes and I couldn't find anything, but there was, there was like a tree on the property. Mm. Mm-hmm. Isn't there that has, like, some sort of story or something behind it?
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Or am I just imagining things? Well, there's a few trees that are quite old and have some stories.
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One is a tree that my wife and I were married under, which is a very old black walnut, um, and it's kind of in the center of this outdoor, uh, area that we host tastings, uh, in the summer, and we will be doing that this year as well.
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There'll be six weekends through the summer that we'll be having a party, some dinners, and some tastings out there. Uh, but there's another tree that's kind of fun that's an old, it's a Sempervirens Sequoia. Right.
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And it is giant. I think that's the tree that I'm thinking of. 150, 180 feet tall. Right. Perfect teardrop shape. Striking for how symmetrical and beautiful it is.
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And what blows everybody's mind is that my father, who is 79 years old, remembers that tree being planted. It's not even as old as he is. Wow. It's incredible. Yeah.
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That is, that is- The base is, diameter's sh-I don't even know, 10 feet or something. It's huge. Wow.
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But yeah, it's a, a critical piece of the property that is one of the many things that I'm happy to be preserving and carrying into the future about that place. I, I can imagine.
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Is- was there a reasoning why that tree was planted or anything, or just- That information I don't think we have. There were some other ones, but it, it came from my grandfather. Okay. My dad's dad. Wow.
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Um, 'cause he planted these. I think he, I think he enjoyed those trees. There's many different kinds of trees there- Wow... actually. Um, but specific reasons were lost to history. Right. No, that's, that's fair. Um,
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I was trying to remember your son's name. Colin. Colin. I remember him at the, at the launch party. Mm-hmm. And man, he was just having a blast. He was, like, running around, grabbing stuff, and like, "Phew, phew, phew."
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Yep. Um, I know it was probably early on, 'cause he's 14-ish? He's, uh, 13. Okay. A little ways into 13. He's, uh... But just recently he surpassed me in height. Oh. [laughs] And so we've hit this whole- [laughs]...
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new era. Oh, man. Yes. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, a wonderful, energetic young man. Yeah. For sure. Um, do you foresee him trying to, like, take over the reins one day?
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Um, I have been very intentional about having no expectations for that. Of course.
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Um, if he does want to, I want it to be after he has gone out into the world and tried, explored, uh, all those things so that he knows
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the challenge [laughs] and the value of what I've spent my life creating. Correct. Um, he's- he appreciates it. I hear him talk in, in, in terms that, like, he, he thinks it's kinda cool. Right. Um, but...
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And he, of course, he has chores. Uh, he has helped bottle, he has helped leaf pull, he's helped harvest, you know, everything else in between.
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And if he someday wanted to take that over, um, I haven't even spent any time really thinking about what would that feel like. I think it would be kind of amazing- Right...
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uh, if he acknowledged it at that level and wanted to carry it forward. But I'm- Right... so not e- I mean, not wanting to- Oh, I know...
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even subconsciously sort of, like, put a, a suggestion or a pressure or any of that sort of thing into it. Yeah.
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But he, unsurprisingly, you know, my wife would, and I, loving food and beverage, have turned him into a little, a little early connoisseur already. He loves to cook, he loves food. Mm.
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We can take him to very nice restaurants and- That's-... he'll eat the snails and all the other cool stuff. Oh, that, that is cool.
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So, uh, you know, uh, a, a career in food and beverage would not be difficult to imagine. [laughs] Oh, I, I can oh, I can, I can agree. Yeah.
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Um, and one thing I meant to talk about, like, with your sparkling, is you hand disgorge everything. Right. And you talked about chores. Right. Has he helped hand disgorge any of the sparkling?
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Uh, he has helped on the disgorging line a little bit. I think he's popped a bottle. Okay. Um, you know, as I'm [laughs] sure you are well aware, uh... Well, or I'll say it differently.
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So not only are we hand disgorging, but I'm disgorging à la volée, no neck freezing. Oh. So this is dry disgorge. It, simply put, takes more skill. Um- Yeah... so, uh, usually I'm the only one doing that part.
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Right. Um, and, but he's... You know, he finds everything fascinating, so he's happy to help. And he's helped dose, and he helps cork, and, and everything else. Right.
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Um, but to date, I do 99.9% of the actual disgorging, for sure. And, um, I mean, if it's appropriate to steer the conversation- Of course, yeah...
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a little bit, uh, at this point, this is one of the pieces I, I often talk about now, that there's a real intention there, um, about why I do it by hand, in part. And it's not only
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to stay more connected, uh, and artisanal handcrafted, which of course is important to me. Mm-hmm. Um, I kind of enjoy it.
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I tell people we're disgorging 9,000 bottles, uh, in the first four months of every year, and they're like, "What are you talking about?" [laughs] Like, it's actually kind of fun.
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Makes a hell of a mess, but it's, it's actually fun. But more than that, um, some of it is a commitment.
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You know, we talked early on, I don't even know if the mics were on at that point, about, you know, technology- Right... and seeking the lowest tech solution.
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Um, I have gotten to the point where, in the vein of, of, you know, being grateful for and proud of my crew that has helped me do this, hand disgorging is a way that I can keep all of us busy
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through all of the year in a business where it wants to be very seasonal and cyclical. And so we do that disgorging in the middle of the winter, when sometimes there isn't as much to do.
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You haven't started bottling yet, et cetera. And I mean, to put a fine point on it, the idea is I'd rather put that money into these people than into a machine that could do those four months of work in four days. Right.
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Uh, or more to the point, to then give, whatever, uh, 8% of the value to a bank or something. I would rather just put it into the people. Oh, and that to me is a perfect segue to your, kinda like your, your slogan.
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Um- Mm. It's like, I have it, uh, "Work hard, be kind, drink great wine." Um, when I saw that on your T-shirts at the launch party, I had to get one.There doesn't have to be a lot more to it than that. No.
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No, I completely agree. [laughs] Oh. I mean, I could say more about it, of course, but- Oh, I know. I know... there is, uh... I- we tried...
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Some of it was I tried to distill down, you know, it wasn't about let's make a, let's make a catchy phrase or something, uh, let's be cutesy about it.
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It really was, you know, how would I describe what I think is important in a very few words. Right. And, um, those are big ones, you know? Work hard.
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I think our contribution to ourselves and to our community and all that, um, can be found through, you know, good, hard, earnest work.
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Um, and the being kind part is, you know, it sounds a little bit simplistic, but, uh, for me, there, there's a lot in there where to be kind is to approach this world that's sometimes kind of a mess, and is not very friendly.
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Right. And to be able to have enough presence of self to be able to approach it with kindness and treat people with kindness even if they aren't, quite frankly. Right.
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Um, and so that work to find, you know, enough peace of self to be able to do that all the time is something that I've considered very important. I couldn't agree more. And then the drink great wine part is just- And-...
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like, why not? And that's what we're doing right now. [laughs] Oh, wow. Um, I was... Hmm.
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And where I was going, I, I had that as, like, one of the next things to, to talk about was your, your slogan. Hmm. And the way that I was going to approach it was I was listening to a, a different podcast,
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um, and they were interviewing Robert Drouin. Hmm. Um- Was this I'll Drink To That? Yes. 'Cause I listened to that one less than six months ago. Yes. And it was wonderful. It was wonderful. Yep.
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And there was a part in there where Robert was talking about, um, the invention of, like, fertilizers and tractors into the vineyard. Right.
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And what he said was the fertilizers and the sprays, along with the tractors- Mm-hmm... were being introduced for the first time in the vineyard of France. Mm-hmm.
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And he reflected on how much greener and vibrant the fruit looked, but the wine lost its character. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And,
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you know, going back to your whole, you know, no technology or, you know, trying to keep technology out of it, employing the people, I mean, it just...
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Then I was going to just bring in your slogan, 'cause I thought it just all just fit together so- Hmm... extremely well. Well, it has been the piece that I've been trying to hone and bring it all together for years now.
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Right. Um, and the farming is, uh, you know, as often as not when now, when I introduce myself, I call myself a farmer, which I never would have seen coming- [laughs]... 30 years ago. Right.
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But it's been the longtime acknowledgement that that's one of the pieces about far- about wine that's so interesting, important. It's the farming origins that really make it work- Mm-hmm... and make it important. Um,
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you know, making wine is an artistic endeavor, but the grapes, agriculture is this, you know, very humble at times endeavor. Right. And it's where I found a lot of satisfaction, a lot of challenge.
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And to the point about your comments about what Robert said, the, the thing that's become more and more important to me, and of course as I live on the land, some of which that I farm, you know, the notion of how am I treating this piece of earth, what am I putting into it, if anything, that is literally becoming my groundwater I drink and growing food that we eat and all that, um, it's the been...
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It's really challenged me then to become lower input in the farming. What is the least we can do to grow the best possible grapes? Right.
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And some of it is about lower technology. Some of it is, in a demonstration way, we are, uh, pursuing organic certification at home, and hopefully at some of the other properties. And,
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you know, there is a, a technology thing there. There's a modernity conversation. There's a chemical inputs conversation. But some of it is just about doing a better job.
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When you are truly trying to farm at a high level, and you're doing it only with organic, um, you know, materials or even more restrictive than that,
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you can do it and grow clean, beautiful fruit, but you have to be a very good farmer. Right.
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And maybe that's the do it the hard way, I like the challenge person coming out in me, but it also, it now feels like the ultimate expression of really what I wanna do, which is the lowest impact possible.
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Uh, if I was, you know, to get to my next phase of this whole adventure, which is what we're cooking on, um, you know, it would be a very low intervention certified organic vineyard,
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uh, producing natural wines with no power or water necessary beyond what can be captured from the sun and the rain. Right.
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That is the ultimate artistic vision at this point, and it's gonna take me years to get there, but I think that's where I wanna go. Yeah. I can definitely see that.Oh. I have some rapid-fire questions.
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Cool And then I'll r- reveal the blind wine. Okay. Okay. Uh, favorite artist to listen to during harvest? Oh, geez. Man, there's so many. [laughs] There's so many. Um,
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yeah. Wow, I can't even... Uh, you know, it depends on what mood I'm in. Like, do you need something totally aggressive and insane?
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Well, how about- Uh, you know, these guys will pump out some, some '90s, some '90s hip hop we- Right. [laughs] We love sometimes, or some Fugazi or something crazy like that.
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There'll be other times, like Nico Case, I was playing before, if I want something really, a lot of thoughtfulness to it. Right. Um- Well, you're, you're hand disgorging today, right? Right.
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What are you gonna have playing today while you're disgorging? Hmm. Uh, you know, I think today's gonna be Magic City Hippies, actually. Magic City Hippies. I don't know if you know those guys, but- I do not. No...
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they're pretty fun. Okay. You should check it out. I'll have- You'll hear it shortly... I'll have to check it out on my- [laughs]... shortly and on the way, way home. Yeah. Uh, your favorite indulgent food? Wow.
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Favorite indulgent food. Oh, man. Why is that so hard to answer? 'Cause there's so many amazing- Yeah... foods. And I like to eat a lot.
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[laughs] Um, boy. Well, in the vein of pinot noir, one of the favorites- Right... um,
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would be, like, a really perfectly prepared duck breast. Um, actually, you know, maybe it's... I'll answer it this way.
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Possibly the best meal I've ever had was the dinner that, um, my wife made for our 10th anniversary, wedding anniversary. Oh, wow. And it was a duck that she used Vitaly Paley's recipe for. Um, and with a,
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not only a gravy, but a cherry reduction- Hmm... straight off the trees. That might be the best thing I've ever had with a glass of pinot noir. Oof. That sounds amazing.
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And I'm slowing down your rapid-fire questions, I apologize. [laughs] Oh, no, no, no. No need to apologize. If you could choose a superpower, what would it be? Oh, my son asks me this often, actually.
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[laughs] And just riffing off of his, uh, his recent, uh, conversation, it'd be telekinesis, for sure. Ooh, that would be nice. Yeah. Uh, your harvest notes, are they digital or handwritten? Uh, handwritten. Okay.
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And then the last book you read. It could've be, be also, like, an Audible book or, like, a podcast. Well, oh, boy. Uh, you know, I always have... I'm the kind where I have four going at once. Hmm. Um,
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but, uh, the last one I finished, I think, was a Christopher Moore book, Lamb. Okay. Yeah. I'll have to check that out. I'll have to check that out. Christopher Moore is wonderful.
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Uh, in the vein of sort of irreverence, uh, but with great perspective, like Kurt Vonnegut and Tom Robbins and- Right... a lot of metaphor and silly and serious all mixed together. Very nice. Very nice.
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Well, shall I reveal the blind wine? Sure. Okay. Do you wanna say anything else about it before I- Hmm... or you just- Yeah, give me a sec. Okay.
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And I have to say, um, I knew what wine I wanted to kinda get you. Yeah. And Lacey also was like, "Ooh, I think you should do this." I couldn't exactly find it quickly. Hmm.
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So when I was at the Backcountry Wine Bar on Saturday- Oh... I saw this, and I was like, "Hmm. All right. I will get that." Interesting. Hmm.
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There's, like, a... Beyond the fruits, there's, like, a hint of almost a eucalyptus that's reaching into my memory. [laughs] Wow. But yeah, I don't feel the need to try and identify- Okay... anything.
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I'd love to... I'm just trying to experience it before I have any context. That's a- I knew it. [laughs] I suspected. I didn't even wanna say it. Yep, yep. You shoulda just said it. Well, I, you know, I don't, uh...
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try not to engage my ego that much. Yeah. No, that, that's cool. No- But-... you know, with your time at Ill He- Right... I thought this was, you know, would be a perfect little, uh, bottle to- That is. Yeah, no.
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Fabulous vineyard, of course, and those guys are great, making wonderful wines.
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Um, the other interesting piece is it definitely quickly reminded me of 2021, and so to give them credit for so beautifully and transparently representing the vintage. Right. Um, yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool.
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Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. My great pleasure. Yes. Thank you for having me. Of course, anytime.
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[upbeat music] Thank you for joining me on this flavorful voyage through the world of wine on the Wine Notes podcast. I've been your host and guide, A.J.
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Winesettle, and it's been an absolute pleasure sharing these captivating stories with you. But alas, like the last sip of a fine vintage, our time together must end.
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But don't fret, my wine-loving friend, the cellar doors of the Wine Notes podcast will always remain open, waiting for you to return and explore new conversations, stories, and musings from the captivating people behind the magical world of wine.
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Before you go, hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and don't forget to leave a sparkling five-star review to help spread the word.
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Until our glasses clink again, remember to savor life's moments, and let the spirit of wine and camaraderie linger on your palate.
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Cheers, and as always, may your wine glass be full, your heart be light, and your journey be delightful. Thank you again.
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[upbeat music] Cheers to another episode of the Wine Notes podcast.
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I'm your guide, AJ Winesuttle, on this journey of stories showcasing the people behind the wonderful world of wine, where we dive into conversations ranging from terroir, viticulture, to favorite music, superpowers, and more.
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Please enjoy this episode of the Wine Notes podcast. Michael, thank you so much for taking time to be on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. It is my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. Oh, so much so. Um,
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the very first time that we met, it was December 3rd, 2021. Mm. And, uh, it was almost [sighs]... To, to... When I first heard about you... Let me back up just a lit- little bit.
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I was doing a sparkling report and, uh, heard from Beth at Dion. And sh- she was like, "Have you tried Michael's Bubbles?" And I'm like, "Michael? Who's this Michael Lundin guy?" Yeah.
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And she's like, "Oh, you gotta try him." And then in speaking with Dan and Gene from Corollary, they were like, "Oh, you've gotta try Michael's 2012 Bunkor- Bunker- Bunker Hill Blanc de Blanc."
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And I'm like, "Okay, this is the second time I've heard Michael's name come up. Can you help me get in contact with him?" And so Dan, you know, hooked us up together, and wow, I'll never forget that day. Mm.
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That was, that was an amazing time just to, to s- sit, not... We... So this was laid out a little bit differently at that time. Right.
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It was in the prior iteration of this whole space and this whole adventure, so you got to see a really critical transition in this whole adventure. But- Yeah...
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uh, yeah, the wine stands out in that prior environment that clearly you know the wine's good [laughs] 'Cause the environment was not. [laughs] Well, no, it was, it was, it was still great. It was fine. Yeah.
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It was just you and I doing a thing. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Uh, before we get much further into it, can I pour us a little bit of a blind wine? Sure. If the... Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh. Mm-hmm. And fortunately, my, uh,
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my seasonal allergies seem to have abated enough that I can actually smell again for the first time in about a month. Oh. So- Well, that's... Springtime will, will do that to you. [exhales] Yeah. Yeah.
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Uh, so as I tell everybody, and as I, you know, said before the interview, I try to find some sort of connection. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think I did an okay job with the connection here. Um, you know, we'll- Mm...
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we'll see as we, as we dive into this a little bit. Mm-hmm. Hmm. You know, and, uh, feel free to say whatever you want. Mm-hmm. Uh, if you wanna say, "It's yummy," "It's yucky," whatever.
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[laughs] It is completely- Ew, yucky. Ew, yucky. No. No. No, it smells beautiful. Uh, and not only has prettiness, but has this, like, beguiling intrigue thing that for me is the absolute pinnacle of pinot noir- Yeah...
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especially from Oregon. Yes. And not that I... I suspect this is from Oregon. It smells like Willamette Valley to me, but- Well, there's, there's-... continue on...
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there, there's probably a good chance it's from Oregon. Yeah. [laughs] Mm. Would you like a spit cup or anything? Mm-hmm. I don't know how much... Yeah.
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And for me, this is actually the- Mm... the first time tasting this wine- Mm... uh, myself. Mm-hmm. You know, so it was, it's a nice little intrigue sip for myself. Mm. Yeah. Wow, beautiful,
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textural, seamless. It is familiar in a way, and I'm trying to figure out why. So I'm gonna meditate on that- Yeah... in the, the back burner while we talk about everything else. But- Yeah... that's a very nice wine.
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Well, I'm glad you like. Yeah. Um, going back a little bit to, to 2000, um, you were into wine, but not like you are today. Right. And your dad had just recently, um, retired from, you know, uh, the, the state of Oregon.
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Right. And his retirement project was to plant grapes, uh, there out, out at your property at Pro- uh, Poverty Bend Road. Uh, uh, but I'm curious, why was it important to him to plant grapes?
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You know, that's actually a fabulous question that I'm not sure I know the answer to, but I'm gonna ask him the next time I see him.
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[laughs] I'm fortunate enough to still have him, and, uh, get to see him somewhat frequently, because the, the why is, uh, is a little uncertain. I mean, it's, it is his home farm where he grew up.
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He is intimately connected with that land, even though he was never really a farmer. Right. Um, and I think it was curiosity.
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I, I gained a certain kind of curiosity from both of my parents, a lot of curiosity, and that's driven me. And I, I think he was, "What's this wine thing all about?"
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Um, you know, he'd first planted grapes in the early '80s. Uh, the oldest vines from that vineyard at home are actually 41 years old now. Wow. Gewürztraminer. He got cuttings from Meyer Redford at Amity- Mm-hmm...
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um, and had put those in the ground, you know- Right... not knowing what he was doing, but, but curious. Right.
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Um, and so for me, uh, it falls into, you know, one of many categories that's just been a resultant serendipity in my adventure, um, how I could fall into that place and have the, you know, the, the somewhat modest but otherwise generous-...
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gift from my father of, "Here's a little piece of dirt, and let's put some vines in and see what happens," and ended up being this little seed that sprouted into an entire career. Right. Yeah, that was
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amazing how, you know, you went to school for journalism, uh, and you also, you know, had, uh, an interest in architecture. So I went into school for- Sorry... architecture. Darn it. Yeah. Yeah.
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Um, no, it's, it's all right. Yeah, I, I was proud to be, to accepted into this accredited program at the University of Oregon, and quickly found out it wasn't gonna fit for me.
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I needed to explore, and that track was, was quite narrow. So I studied everything I could, 38 departments. I was fascinated by everything, and came out with a journalism degree. Very nice.
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And then, you know, you did your, your little piece in journalism about architecture. Right, [laughs] right. [laughs] Got to use my degree one time, I got paid for it, and I was like, "I know. I'm out." Yeah.
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And the rest is history. [laughs] Seems to be. Um, one of those places along the way, you know, in your wine journey, was, uh, working with the team at Domaine Serene. Mm-hmm.
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I believe you were there with Drew Voit, Tony Rynders- Mm-hmm... and Eric Berg. Yes. Eric Berg came in kind of at the end, late in my tenure- Right... but we overlapped a little bit, yeah, and we're still good friends.
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Yes. And I, I love, you know, how that team was, like, together, and now everybody's kinda just- Mm-hmm... you know, doing amazing things today. It's, it's really nice. Yeah.
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It's a very fun thing to look back on in that context 'cause, like, like a lot of life, you look back to younger days, and it seems so simple, and you didn't realize how good you had it- Right... and how fun.
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You know, we were making great wine, we were having a good time, but it was, it was easy, and it wasn't stressful. We enjoyed each other and helped each other.
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And then, yeah, as we've, you know, gone our similar but different paths in this business, um, it's great to have people that know your history and be able to help each other. And, you know- Right...
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I sell grapes to Eric. Uh, Drew actually, through another piece of serendipity, introduced me to the opportunity that became this winery 13 years ago or more. Right. Uh- That is- So yeah, it's been, um,
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you know, not to overstate it, I'm not one for hyperbole, but I, the most valuable piece of this whole journey for me has really become about the people,
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um, the people that have helped me, uh, the fabulous people I have working for me, some of which have been more than 10 years, two of which. Wow.
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Um, the great friends out in the industry where we help each other and have a great time. And I didn't really see any of that coming.
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You know, as I fell into wine, it was, it was delicious, and fun, and artistic, and, uh, you know, cultural.
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It was all these things, but I, I never saw it as a conduit to, uh, or at least I never saw that the relationships would be what would be the most satisfying, as well as critical, you know? Right.
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Um, those farming relationships, the sales relationships, the, all that stuff. It, it is. It is all critical. And I, I heard a story that, um, like, the first day when Eric came to work at Domaine Serene,
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and Drew asked him a question. He was like, "So tell me about this modeling career that you have." [laughs] Right. Uh, how much razzing did Eric get from the team about modeling? Oh.
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Or was that just kind of a, an a- Vast quantities. Vast quantities, I'm sure. But it was, I mean, it was always in, it was in good fun. Of course. Right. Um, you know, he,
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I think he was in that phase, you know, trying to, trying to get past that era, not because there was anything wrong with that work. He did great work, and he enjoyed it, and he was good at it. Right.
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But he was, like, looking to launch this wine adventure, and here people keep razzing him about, you know, what was before. Right. But yeah. Yeah.
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No, it, it's, I always thought it was a very interesting, like, small little tidbit in, in his, uh, in his world, and I think he still does a little bit here and there every now and then. I don't know, but he should.
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I, yeah, I think so.
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[laughs] And it's a good reminder in a way that I often think about, that one of the things that makes this business so interesting is that the people you meet in it tend to choose to work in this industry.
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And so it brings a lot of diverse stories and backgrounds, and a lot of intention to be in this place. But it is a reminder that, eh, people have done all kinds of crazy things before. Oh, yeah. It's pretty fun.
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It is very fun. Yeah. Speaking of fun, I think you have a bottle of sparkling here. Yes, indeed. Uh, shall we- I would like to share it. That would be great. Thank you. Yes. Uh, so I, I don't need to pour this blind.
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I'm happy to tell you what this is- All's well... while I'm pouring it. Um- Okay... but, um, you know, the story of my, of my wine adventure, of course, was
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got started with my little property at home and making a few grapes, working at other wineries, growing my project, growing these other wineries, eventually moving in here. And then in my first vintage here,
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I had the opportunity to make sparkling wine. Yes. Uh, and not only the opportunity, but the almost strict need. And so this is the very first- Ooh... sparkling cuvée I've ever produced. Oh my gosh.
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The 2011 Blanc de Noirs from La Cantera Vineyard. Wow. I have, I have goosebumps right now.Uh, I know that this vineyard is very near and dear to you.
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And, uh, you know, to get a pour of the, the very first sparkling that you did was, is quite a treat. My pleasure. My pleasure.
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Uh, it's always fun to be able to share it with people that are really not only gonna understand it, but appreciate all that's in it. Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. My pleasure. This has been a- Mm...
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fascinating, complex wine. Um, you know, this is disgorged nearly 10 and a half years now. So it is- Wow... well evolved into secondary and tertiary. Um, but it has been a spectacular bottle of wine its whole life.
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And this was, you know, um, I consider myself a very lucky person. I have, um, I've been open to opportunity, and I believe you have to work for things, but by God, I get lucky quite a lot. Very fortunate man.
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And, um, I would say beginner's luck to, [laughs] uh- [laughs]... produce a wine like this. I had the guidance, thankfully, of Rich Cushman, uh, who had made wine with these very riddling racks- Nice...
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under this glass on this table 30 years ago plus at Flynn, and of course made his Viento wines, and he was able to guide me a bit as do this, don't do this. Right.
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Um, had, yes, the La Cantera vineyard, which I've now worked with 13 years and I hope to work with for as much as 16 more years, um, that's very versatile.
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And took this block of grapes that was never gonna get all the way ripe, and decided to go a whole nother direction.
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And this then was catalyst for entire growth of a new program, uh, a new facet of my, you know, I hate to use the word passion, but in this case, it kind of fits. I've been so excited to produce sparkling wine.
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It's been fun at every level. Uh, thank God the first one turned out well, or I don't think [laughs]... this would all be looking the way that it does now. Well, I, I'm sure. It's, um...
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I know that, you know, 2011, you know, it was a little bit cooler, and like you said, you know, like that- It was a lot bit cooler... uh, that, you know, you had grapes that weren't ripening.
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And, you know, I actually have it down for later on to ask, but- Mm... we're on the topic. Yeah. Um, was it like just taking a look at what you were being presented, and like, "What are my options?"
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Or were you kind of thinking, "I'd like to dive into sparkling, and this is the perfect opportunity"? I mean, what, what was- Mm... what was happening? Um, it was, it was more the former.
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It was, I had all the intention to be making a different wine out of it. But when presented, you know, uh, the recollection was looking at the chemistry, was like, "This is ideal for sparkling."
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Um, and then that little spark of inspiration, "Well, what if?" Right. And I'd been looking, you know, maybe secretly looking for a reason. I'd always wanted to try, um,
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but wasn't confident enough, wasn't experienced enough, um, to just commit thousands of dollars worth of raw materials to this- Right... big, giant unknown.
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And so in that moment, it went from, you know, long shot left field to, "This actually may be the highest use of these grapes. This could be the best possible thing I could do with them." Right.
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And that really opened the door. It did. And, uh, taking the first sip of this, it's... Well, first, I mean, I, I, I just gotta look in the glass first, right? You can see- Mm-hmm...
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you know, that there is definitely some age to this. Yep. Yep. Which is, it's gorgeous. And then just to taste it is, um, yeah, you can get all those secondary and tertiary- Yeah... components just all right there.
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It's, it is- Yeah, everything from, like, for me, fruit, like, uh, quince paste almost, into mushroom. Yeah. I mean, like very complex.
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I have a feeling if we can be patient, it will gradually reveal actually some brighter elements. Um, but yeah, then the luxurious lovely palate. Yes. This is going to be fun to, to sip on for the next little bit here.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing. I can't thank you enough. My pleasure.
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Oh, your time at Domaine Serene gave you the, uh, you were introduced, uh, to an Italian winemaker that persuaded you to come over to, to Italy and- Mm-hmm... make some wine. Mm-hmm. Um, what I...
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First, I'll just ask a simple question. Like, what was that experience like for you? The experience of being there? Yeah. Mm. And making wine. Yeah. Oh, boy. Um, yeah, incredible. It was a, uh...
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You know, it was at a point in my life also that was, uh... I was young, and I was kind of free, except I had met this wonderful, um, beautiful, fascinating young woman that would eventually become my wife. Mm-hmm.
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And just not that less than a year before. Right.
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And so while I was in this phase that I was gonna start traveling internationally, I'd considered going to New Zealand and pursuing a degree in winemaking, all these things. Thankfully, I had this tether back home.
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[laughs] So instead of traveling out and never coming back, I, I did a stint and returned. Right. But it was, yeah, it was this, this broadening, exciting scenario, um,
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that was challenging because of course when I left, I barely spoke three words of Italian.And being out in the country, the, the apartment that I was in was above the winery in the town of Barbaresco, which is pretty tiny.
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And so, you know, it was the children of most of the people I knew who would speak English. Right. And they always wanted to practice their English and all that. Um,
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so that part was difficult, and I learned as quickly as I could, but of course the thing that I found everywhere is if you approach people earnestly and, you know, you're there to try and do hard work, there's a lot of forgiveness and effort to, to come together and understand each other no matter what.
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Right. And I've had wonderful conversations with far less linguistic power than that- [laughs]... uh, all over the world. But- Right... they, they helped me along with that. Um, but it was, it was everything from,
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you know, sort of professionally challenging, we had some interesting techniques that we were taking from Pinot Noir production, um, cold soaking and things to,
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you know, accentuate f- beautiful, fruitful elements from an indigenous varietal that is found m- only really around the town of Verduno, uh, which is one of the Barolo communes- Mm...
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called Pelaverga Piccolo, and it's very thin-skinned. In some ways it is very Pinot Noir-like. Um, and so we were trying some techniques that nobody had ever considered there before.
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Uh, shortly thereafter they made a Blanc de Noir out of the Pelaverga, I believe after conversations Mario and I had many times late into the night. Right. And so that was fascinating and fun. Um, I expected it to be
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everything different, everything new, and some of what was really wonderful was actually realizing how much was very similar. Uh, viticulture, very similar- Mm-hmm... the way we treated these vines.
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Um, you know, they were...
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It did bring into focus the difference of, you know, they're guided by tradition and in some ways, uh, you know, reinforced by law and bureaucratic need, and we here have the educational benefit of that tradition but are unbound and so can experiment freely.
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Right. Um, and it let me really meditate on the, the pros and cons of both of those things, for sure. Um, and one of the real differences that was fascinating was between how the w- the grapes were treated in the winery.
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Um, so I'd come from here where we were, you know, very quickly picking the Pinot Noir, quickly as we could, get it cold, get it into the building as fast as possible, and then slowly, gently sorting the fruit, gently de-stemming it, uh, in the ways that we are always careful with Pinot Noir because it quickly reveals, you know, how it's been mistreated, uh, or any imperfections.
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Right. And over there working with the Nebbiolo, it [laughs] was like inside out.
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We would spend all day carefully picking the fruit, and some of it was out of a respect for the vines and the respect for the process, but we would literally, our small team, would spend three-quarters of the day out in the field- Mm-hmm...
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picking from these cru vineyards of Rabbaya, uh, beautiful, beautiful Nebbiolo vineyards. And then we'd come back to the winery, and we'd slam it through this de-stemmer and crusher and must pump it into a tank.
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[laughs] And I was like, "What is ha- happening?" Um, but that was, you know... The Nebbiolo needed more... I mean, it has nuance of course- Right... and great subtlety.
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Um, but the skins are thick, and you need to get in there a bit to be able to, to be able to macerate, and so it was a real, it's a real- Wow... mind-blower. But, uh, I have always loved travel.
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I got that from my mother, who's one of the most well-traveled people I know. Right. Uh, she's been to 75 or 80 countries, I think. Holy cow.
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And, uh, you know, took me all over the place, I mean, even as young as a baby. And so I've always loved to travel, and for that piece it was, yeah, the exposure to new cultures, food of course, all that. I loved it. Mm.
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Loved it. That's... I can only imagine. Um, and then, like, being there in Italy, you were noticing how, like, almost everybody had, like, a little, you know,
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winery in their basement, and it kind of presented to you of like, "Oh, I could do this." Right. And, you know, I always use the term, you know, finding Oregon's little hidden gems, and,
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you know, the way that I came across you was to me very much how you would come across, like, a little- Mm... unknown kinda Italian, you know, wine producer.
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And, you know, once you find that little gem it's like, "Holy cow." Yeah. A, a fun discovery. Well, thank you for the kind and complimentary words. Of course.
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Um, but that was definitely, that was definitely the experience.
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You know, I had come from, um, for this area, somewhat sizable and sophisticated, uh, well-funded operations like WillaKenzie and Domaine Serene, and so that was where my head in wine had sort of started. Right.
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And it was that revelation about, oh, no, like, when you get down to this very handcrafted, artisanal level, um, this is wine also. Mm-hmm. And what a wonderful experience. What a wonderful way to do it.
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And thinking, well, I didn't have a lot, you know... I didn't h- the one thing I didn't have was a lot of money, but I was like, "Oh, I could make wine in a basement and make fabulous wine- Right... just this much."
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Right.It was a great, uh, yeah, a great realization that allowed me to move forward and explore this whole journey. Yeah. Which, yeah, still feels like,
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uh, you know, that, that kicks off this whole thing I think and talk about sometimes where, [clears throat] um, you know, part of my story is that I'm a
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l- you know, a native Oregonian, um, really a local, and doing this at very modest means. Uh, there are a few of us, but not very many. Right.
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And it has been a long, slow journey because this is a business that requires so much capital. And so to try and do it- [laughs]... without capital is kind of absurd. Yeah.
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But I have, uh, long been someone who likes a challenge, [laughs] I have realized about myself. Right.
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Um, and, uh, some would say, you know, maybe do things the hard way, but for me, it's really been about the, the method and the vision. Like, and wanting to stick to that, whatever it is, even if that's difficult. Right.
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And, and it also gives you a sense of humbleness and gratefulness as well, which very much comes across in everything that you do. Mm. Well, thank you. That piece is, is important to me.
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It's, um, yeah, it's the, it's the how, not just the what- Right...
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that has grown more and more important as I get older and I, you know, ask myself, "What does this all mean, and what am I doing, and why am I doing it, and how am I doing it?" Right. Is the important part. Right.
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Um, and so it's grown from, you know, a playtime, artistic, artisanal endeavor into something that I could feel, like, excited and proud about the life that I put together, what I was able to build, how I was able to do it, that I can employ a team and provide them with good jobs and offer healthcare, and they can help me, you know, earnestly farm these properties and produce wines that I'm proud of.
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Yeah. No, it is... That is absolutely amazing. I'm gonna ask a question. This is more ignorance on my part. Mm. But since you have time, um, in making wine in Italy- Mm-hmm...
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I've always, in the back of my head, have been curious. So, like, in, in Amarone, you know, they have... They bring in the grapes, and they dry them out. Right. And then they make wine. I mean, that, that's...
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I know there's more pieces and parts involved, but at a high level. But that's what, yeah, defines Amarone, for sure. Um, and I've been curious. W- we explore so much and experiment so much out here in Oregon,
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and I know it's a process, but so is sparkling. Yeah. I don't... I, I'm just... Can, can you give me some insight as to why we don't do that? Oh, the, the drying- Yeah... ripasso or other things like that? Right. Whew.
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Well, it's a giant pain in the ass. [laughs] Uh, I'm sure, uh, I'm sure some people have tried it. It's, it's quite difficult.
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Um, you know, to my understanding, I toured a little bit in Amarone and some smaller cellars, and they were able to show us the process. They essentially have these racks or mats that are not very big- Right...
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uh, that they carefully lay the grapes into, and they stack them up, and they have a little air moving through them. And it takes, if I remember, I'm not exactly sure, I think takes several months- Mm-hmm...
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uh, or at least six weeks perhaps, for the process to really go far enough.
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And then they have to go back through and sort all of it because some of them will have gone moldy and rotted, and they have to take that and just use the good ones. Right.
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Um, but I believe, like many parts of style, and, you know, I could quickly turn this into a conversation about what climate change is doing to wine worldwide- Right...
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which is through the changing composition and through the changing logistics, what we have is a change in style almost everywhere. Mm-hmm.
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They were adding intensity and, uh, extract and more alcohol and whatever through this process in a region that was quite marginal, and I think they often struggled to get grapes fully ripe. Okay.
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And so you could bring them in, and then it could rain and do everything else, and you could dry them out and get these more, you know, you get a change of characteristic, but then these more intense grapes as well.
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Well, at least in the last 20 years, 25 years, getting grapes ripe, with the exception of this vintage, of course- Mm-hmm... is not that difficult anymore. Right. And so we... I don't think we need to do it.
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There w- there's probably people out there trying it right now because there are passionate experimenters everywhere, of course. Of course. Of course.
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Uh, one thing we have done, and I believe the first iteration that I heard about was Mimi Castille, and then I played with it at Illahee when I was making those wines, and I've used it since, um,
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is actually to more or less do an early pruning before harvest- Okay... and then let them dehydrate on the vine, which is kind of a different maneuver.
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But if you make, you know, a gross cut, let's say, and you cut off- Oh... an arm- Right... pre-harvest, the grapes are 95% of the way there. Right.
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They get disconnected from the trunk and the root system, and, you know, there may be a little bit of translocation that happens before they stop, but then the rest is just dehydration.
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And so that has been used to make some very interesting- That would be interesting... dessert style wines- Right... and just kind of adding intensity.
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Um, I've done it with Riesling, I've done it with Syrah, uh, Pinot Gris. Wow. Yeah. That's the first time I've heard of that. Yeah. It's, um-You know, I mean, it's difficult to control a little bit- Right...
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and how far do you wanna take it, and you don't know what the weather's gonna be. If it starts raining like crazy- Right... uh, it can become kind of a problem. But, uh, yeah, again, our, our vintages are somewhat...
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If you've done your farming well- Right... if you've done your work out in the field and you've kept them ripe and the vines balanced and all that, getting ripe isn't that difficult anymore. Right.
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Not like it was 30 years ago- Right... 40 years ago. Yeah, most definitely. Oh, thank you. I... So- Some of that's just supposition, but a educated- Right... guess. Yeah. Yeah. No. I, I...
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Part of me, I would love to study more of the Amarone process and, you know, buy, like, a ton of grapes and just see how much of a pain in the ass it is- Right, and what happens... and just see what happens. Totally.
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I, I would... I, I think that would be so much fun. Totally. You know, there is, um, just to go on the, the supposition part, we do have vintages, of course, that are very dry. Uh, we'll go almost 100 days without rain,
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uh, and by the time we hit harvest time, the vines may have stopped, and then they will start dehydrating on the vine. Right.
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And so we have experienced, I believe, some of what those characteristics would yield when you take these... You know, they've gone past ideal ripeness- Of course... into whatever comes next. Right.
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And it's a little bit similar to if you had picked them and let them dehydrate. Right.
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And some of those characteristics can be kind of cool, but some of them definitely go against what we think of as the typical flavor profile. Of course.
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And so, yeah, some may like them and some may not, but dried flowers and dried fruits can be kind of intriguing. Yeah, I think that would be very intriguing. Yeah. Um,
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I'm trying to find a, a good way to kind of talk about this, but it kind of falls in line with what I was saying earlier, how much of a little hidden gem you are. Mm. Uh, last Saturday,
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I was at, um, Back Country Wine Bar in downtown Portland. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Jack was pouring. The very first wine that he poured was, you know, one of your bruts. Yep. And, um, you know, he sat down. I'm like,
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"You don't even need to tell me anything about-" [laughs] "... Michael's wines. I know him. He's great. I love all of his wines. Thank you so much." Uh, and he's like, "Oh." I mean, he wasn't expecting that obviously.
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Mm. Right. Uh, but he's like, "The reason that I wanted to pour you this first is because to find a $40 sparkling in Oregon that is out of this world is completely rare." And so, you know, just...
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I don't know. There's gonna be so many examples- Mm... I'm sure that, you know, I've already talked about and I will continue to talk about of, like, how unique, approachable- Mm...
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and wonderful, you know, everything that you do is. I mean, it's just, it is absolutely wonderful. Well, that's a lot of compliment. Thank you. Yes. Um,
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yeah, Jack has been a good supporter with that wine, and I appreciate it because, uh, i- you know, there's a little bit of no small amount of education required for us sparkling producers in the Willamette Valley.
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You know, in our own backyard, we've got a lot of people who, who understand what's happening here, but farther afield than that- Right...
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uh, we're still doing a lot of education that of the, the caliber of traditional method sparkling that we can produce here is very high, and a lot of people don't know that. Um- Right...
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so of course, there's lots of people who do take the opportunity then to turn that into a much higher bottle price, and that can be well worth it, of course.
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Um, you know, I, I can command very nice prices for some of these wines.
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But I've always felt it very important to have a wine like that that can go out into the world and tell the story and be relevant in the broader market- Right...
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and with a little bit of luck and hard work, even very competitive or outperform lots of others at that price. Um- Yeah... the, the value, it becomes...
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You know, obviously we don't make much money on the wines, but it becomes a great calling card. It does the marketing for us, for sure. Most definitely.
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And I, I've heard rumors that you're part of, like, a, a, a tasting group, you know, for sparkling wine. You know, so, like, Kenny from A- Arabella's- Mm-hmm... Dan and Jean from Corollary. Mm-hmm.
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Who else is, is in that group? Um, well, there's a, there's a, a few different things happening, but the tasting group, if, if I'm thinking about what you're thinking, uh, 'cause there's another group- Mm...
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you know, spearheaded by, by Dan and Jean really that's trying to assemble the sparkling industry as sort of a trade group. Right. Uh- I, I call it the Sparkling Revolution myself. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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[laughs] Um, but I'm actually a part of a, a different group additionally where we do a lot of tastings. Okay.
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And that was what I was thinking of, but I'm not sure is what you're referring- I was probably thinking of the Dan and Jean one- Right... probably. Yeah. Right. Right. Um, and that is still coalescing.
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Um, you know, I don't wanna talk too much out of school, and I don't feel like I necessarily officially represent the group or anything. I'm very happy to be a part of it.
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It's a group of us that are looking to absolutely, you know, push the envelope about quality potential and then tell that story. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's, uh... It's in its infancy, and it's still- Of course...
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figuring out who it is and, uh, you know, what it looks like and what it's called and, and all of that- Right. Right... still. Yeah. No, I, I,
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uh, I think I was just strictly talking about just the wine itself.Um, I thought, you know, that there was a group of you that would get together and just dissect- [clears throat] Yeah...
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you know, the Or- you know, Oregon sparkling or just sparkling or- Yeah... champagne and- Well, I can talk about that, for sure. And, uh, yeah.
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So, um, one name that, I mean, I have a lot of respect for Marcus Goodfellow. Mm. Has produced a lot of great wines- Yes...
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in the past, and has, you know, been a prolific, uh, connoisseur of champagne for a very long time, and thankfully got into the game of producing a little while ago. Yes. Um, and he and I,
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a few years back, were like, "Let's, let's start examining this more closely." Right. And of course, it's a fabulous excuse to just drink champagne with your buddies, but it is really- Yes. [laughs]...
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uh, there was some really important work. And so we started to organize some tastings where we weren't, we weren't working too hard at it, but we were doing blind flights with a theme. Um,
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and, you know, we did one here that was blanc de blancs. Uh, we've done another that was sort of blended bruts. I think we have a blanc de noir that we need to get to, and it would be champagne and Oregon. Mm-hmm.
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And we blind taste them all, and talk, make notes, all that, and reveal and talk some more, of course. Of course. And then we would run analysis on all the wines, and we would... Laboratory analysis- Wow...
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and we'd see what's going on here, and how does that, how does that relate to our experience of the wines? Right.
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Um, and the refreshing news was that many of the better Oregon, Willamette Valley usually, wines could absolutely hang qualitatively with the better champagnes. Absolutely.
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You know, they were clearly from two different places- Right...
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but there was the fabulous experience of traditional method sparkling that was being achieved in both cases, and one tasted like champagne and one tasted like Oregon.
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Um, to the last couple times, the very, very best bottles have all been champagne, but it was a definite, um, mm, you know, obvious revelation that what we were doing was- Right... we were getting there.
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We were getting there. Right. And there was plenty of champagne, expensive, um, known names- [laughs]... should've been very good wines that placed quite poorly in the whole thing. Wow. Um, and so it was illuminating.
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And then there was other parts that were illuminating, like when the analysis would come back and we would see, you know, acidities in champagne that were surprisingly low.
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[laughs] And it's been their experience moving into climate change and how they're, uh, making moves to try and, uh, shore that up, and what to do about that, allowing the older grape varietals again, talking about potentially expanding regions to include cooler areas, things like that.
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Right. But, um, the... You know, historically, you'd say champagne and you'd think of this, you know, intense, you know, structural cut, and in most cases, the Oregon wines were brighter. Nice. Yeah.
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Uh, wasn't always better, but that was... It was, it was illuminating, for sure. I bet. And then getting into,
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um, yeah, a lot of ML complete wines, uh, from the Old World, and I suspect there may also be a case there of, uh, you know, pursuing natural style.
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Uh, they could get to bottle without filtration, without fining, and have a more hands-off direct line all the way through to the end. Wow. That would be...
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I would love to just sit back and just hear and listen- [laughs]... of course taste, but, like, that would, that would- Yeah... I can only imagine.
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And I have to say, when I saw that Marcus released his first sparkling- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... over the spring, I was like, "Oh, yes please." [laughs] Yeah. Yep, yep. Yep. For sure.
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Yeah, great stuff, and he's been working on it for years very patiently, and, uh, I have definitely come to believe that that is probably the single most important ingredient in producing sparkling wine is patience.
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Yes, it is. Very much so. Um, you know, we talked a little bit about, um, the property, you know, in, back in 2000, you know, um, planting grapes there f- you know, with your dad.
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Uh, and so you're the third generation, and, uh, your son will be the fourth generation. Mm-hmm. Um, and I remember visiting the property for your, like- Oh, right... your, your, your kickoff party,
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and I tried to look in my notes and I couldn't find anything, but there was, there was like a tree on the property. Mm. Mm-hmm. Isn't there that has, like, some sort of story or something behind it?
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Or am I just imagining things? Well, there's a few trees that are quite old and have some stories.
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One is a tree that my wife and I were married under, which is a very old black walnut, um, and it's kind of in the center of this outdoor, uh, area that we host tastings, uh, in the summer, and we will be doing that this year as well.
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There'll be six weekends through the summer that we'll be having a party, some dinners, and some tastings out there. Uh, but there's another tree that's kind of fun that's an old, it's a Sempervirens Sequoia. Right.
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And it is giant. I think that's the tree that I'm thinking of. 150, 180 feet tall. Right. Perfect teardrop shape. Striking for how symmetrical and beautiful it is.
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And what blows everybody's mind is that my father, who is 79 years old, remembers that tree being planted. It's not even as old as he is. Wow. It's incredible. Yeah.
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That is, that is- The base is, diameter's sh-I don't even know, 10 feet or something. It's huge. Wow.
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But yeah, it's a, a critical piece of the property that is one of the many things that I'm happy to be preserving and carrying into the future about that place. I, I can imagine.
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Is- was there a reasoning why that tree was planted or anything, or just- That information I don't think we have. There were some other ones, but it, it came from my grandfather. Okay. My dad's dad. Wow.
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Um, 'cause he planted these. I think he, I think he enjoyed those trees. There's many different kinds of trees there- Wow... actually. Um, but specific reasons were lost to history. Right. No, that's, that's fair. Um,
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I was trying to remember your son's name. Colin. Colin. I remember him at the, at the launch party. Mm-hmm. And man, he was just having a blast. He was, like, running around, grabbing stuff, and like, "Phew, phew, phew."
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Yep. Um, I know it was probably early on, 'cause he's 14-ish? He's, uh, 13. Okay. A little ways into 13. He's, uh... But just recently he surpassed me in height. Oh. [laughs] And so we've hit this whole- [laughs]...
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new era. Oh, man. Yes. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, a wonderful, energetic young man. Yeah. For sure. Um, do you foresee him trying to, like, take over the reins one day?
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Um, I have been very intentional about having no expectations for that. Of course.
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Um, if he does want to, I want it to be after he has gone out into the world and tried, explored, uh, all those things so that he knows
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the challenge [laughs] and the value of what I've spent my life creating. Correct. Um, he's- he appreciates it. I hear him talk in, in, in terms that, like, he, he thinks it's kinda cool. Right. Um, but...
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And he, of course, he has chores. Uh, he has helped bottle, he has helped leaf pull, he's helped harvest, you know, everything else in between.
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And if he someday wanted to take that over, um, I haven't even spent any time really thinking about what would that feel like. I think it would be kind of amazing- Right...
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uh, if he acknowledged it at that level and wanted to carry it forward. But I'm- Right... so not e- I mean, not wanting to- Oh, I know...
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even subconsciously sort of, like, put a, a suggestion or a pressure or any of that sort of thing into it. Yeah.
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But he, unsurprisingly, you know, my wife would, and I, loving food and beverage, have turned him into a little, a little early connoisseur already. He loves to cook, he loves food. Mm.
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We can take him to very nice restaurants and- That's-... he'll eat the snails and all the other cool stuff. Oh, that, that is cool.
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So, uh, you know, uh, a, a career in food and beverage would not be difficult to imagine. [laughs] Oh, I, I can oh, I can, I can agree. Yeah.
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Um, and one thing I meant to talk about, like, with your sparkling, is you hand disgorge everything. Right. And you talked about chores. Right. Has he helped hand disgorge any of the sparkling?
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Uh, he has helped on the disgorging line a little bit. I think he's popped a bottle. Okay. Um, you know, as I'm [laughs] sure you are well aware, uh... Well, or I'll say it differently.
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So not only are we hand disgorging, but I'm disgorging à la volée, no neck freezing. Oh. So this is dry disgorge. It, simply put, takes more skill. Um- Yeah... so, uh, usually I'm the only one doing that part.
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Right. Um, and, but he's... You know, he finds everything fascinating, so he's happy to help. And he's helped dose, and he helps cork, and, and everything else. Right.
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Um, but to date, I do 99.9% of the actual disgorging, for sure. And, um, I mean, if it's appropriate to steer the conversation- Of course, yeah...
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a little bit, uh, at this point, this is one of the pieces I, I often talk about now, that there's a real intention there, um, about why I do it by hand, in part. And it's not only
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to stay more connected, uh, and artisanal handcrafted, which of course is important to me. Mm-hmm. Um, I kind of enjoy it.
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I tell people we're disgorging 9,000 bottles, uh, in the first four months of every year, and they're like, "What are you talking about?" [laughs] Like, it's actually kind of fun.
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Makes a hell of a mess, but it's, it's actually fun. But more than that, um, some of it is a commitment.
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You know, we talked early on, I don't even know if the mics were on at that point, about, you know, technology- Right... and seeking the lowest tech solution.
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Um, I have gotten to the point where, in the vein of, of, you know, being grateful for and proud of my crew that has helped me do this, hand disgorging is a way that I can keep all of us busy
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through all of the year in a business where it wants to be very seasonal and cyclical. And so we do that disgorging in the middle of the winter, when sometimes there isn't as much to do.
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You haven't started bottling yet, et cetera. And I mean, to put a fine point on it, the idea is I'd rather put that money into these people than into a machine that could do those four months of work in four days. Right.
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Uh, or more to the point, to then give, whatever, uh, 8% of the value to a bank or something. I would rather just put it into the people. Oh, and that to me is a perfect segue to your, kinda like your, your slogan.
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Um- Mm. It's like, I have it, uh, "Work hard, be kind, drink great wine." Um, when I saw that on your T-shirts at the launch party, I had to get one.There doesn't have to be a lot more to it than that. No.
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No, I completely agree. [laughs] Oh. I mean, I could say more about it, of course, but- Oh, I know. I know... there is, uh... I- we tried...
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Some of it was I tried to distill down, you know, it wasn't about let's make a, let's make a catchy phrase or something, uh, let's be cutesy about it.
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It really was, you know, how would I describe what I think is important in a very few words. Right. And, um, those are big ones, you know? Work hard.
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I think our contribution to ourselves and to our community and all that, um, can be found through, you know, good, hard, earnest work.
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Um, and the being kind part is, you know, it sounds a little bit simplistic, but, uh, for me, there, there's a lot in there where to be kind is to approach this world that's sometimes kind of a mess, and is not very friendly.
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Right. And to be able to have enough presence of self to be able to approach it with kindness and treat people with kindness even if they aren't, quite frankly. Right.
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Um, and so that work to find, you know, enough peace of self to be able to do that all the time is something that I've considered very important. I couldn't agree more. And then the drink great wine part is just- And-...
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like, why not? And that's what we're doing right now. [laughs] Oh, wow. Um, I was... Hmm.
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And where I was going, I, I had that as, like, one of the next things to, to talk about was your, your slogan. Hmm. And the way that I was going to approach it was I was listening to a, a different podcast,
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um, and they were interviewing Robert Drouin. Hmm. Um- Was this I'll Drink To That? Yes. 'Cause I listened to that one less than six months ago. Yes. And it was wonderful. It was wonderful. Yep.
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And there was a part in there where Robert was talking about, um, the invention of, like, fertilizers and tractors into the vineyard. Right.
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And what he said was the fertilizers and the sprays, along with the tractors- Mm-hmm... were being introduced for the first time in the vineyard of France. Mm-hmm.
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And he reflected on how much greener and vibrant the fruit looked, but the wine lost its character. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And,
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you know, going back to your whole, you know, no technology or, you know, trying to keep technology out of it, employing the people, I mean, it just...
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Then I was going to just bring in your slogan, 'cause I thought it just all just fit together so- Hmm... extremely well. Well, it has been the piece that I've been trying to hone and bring it all together for years now.
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Right. Um, and the farming is, uh, you know, as often as not when now, when I introduce myself, I call myself a farmer, which I never would have seen coming- [laughs]... 30 years ago. Right.
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But it's been the longtime acknowledgement that that's one of the pieces about far- about wine that's so interesting, important. It's the farming origins that really make it work- Mm-hmm... and make it important. Um,
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you know, making wine is an artistic endeavor, but the grapes, agriculture is this, you know, very humble at times endeavor. Right. And it's where I found a lot of satisfaction, a lot of challenge.
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And to the point about your comments about what Robert said, the, the thing that's become more and more important to me, and of course as I live on the land, some of which that I farm, you know, the notion of how am I treating this piece of earth, what am I putting into it, if anything, that is literally becoming my groundwater I drink and growing food that we eat and all that, um, it's the been...
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It's really challenged me then to become lower input in the farming. What is the least we can do to grow the best possible grapes? Right.
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And some of it is about lower technology. Some of it is, in a demonstration way, we are, uh, pursuing organic certification at home, and hopefully at some of the other properties. And,
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you know, there is a, a technology thing there. There's a modernity conversation. There's a chemical inputs conversation. But some of it is just about doing a better job.
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When you are truly trying to farm at a high level, and you're doing it only with organic, um, you know, materials or even more restrictive than that,
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you can do it and grow clean, beautiful fruit, but you have to be a very good farmer. Right.
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And maybe that's the do it the hard way, I like the challenge person coming out in me, but it also, it now feels like the ultimate expression of really what I wanna do, which is the lowest impact possible.
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Uh, if I was, you know, to get to my next phase of this whole adventure, which is what we're cooking on, um, you know, it would be a very low intervention certified organic vineyard,
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uh, producing natural wines with no power or water necessary beyond what can be captured from the sun and the rain. Right.
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That is the ultimate artistic vision at this point, and it's gonna take me years to get there, but I think that's where I wanna go. Yeah. I can definitely see that.Oh. I have some rapid-fire questions.
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Cool And then I'll r- reveal the blind wine. Okay. Okay. Uh, favorite artist to listen to during harvest? Oh, geez. Man, there's so many. [laughs] There's so many. Um,
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yeah. Wow, I can't even... Uh, you know, it depends on what mood I'm in. Like, do you need something totally aggressive and insane?
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Well, how about- Uh, you know, these guys will pump out some, some '90s, some '90s hip hop we- Right. [laughs] We love sometimes, or some Fugazi or something crazy like that.
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There'll be other times, like Nico Case, I was playing before, if I want something really, a lot of thoughtfulness to it. Right. Um- Well, you're, you're hand disgorging today, right? Right.
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What are you gonna have playing today while you're disgorging? Hmm. Uh, you know, I think today's gonna be Magic City Hippies, actually. Magic City Hippies. I don't know if you know those guys, but- I do not. No...
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they're pretty fun. Okay. You should check it out. I'll have- You'll hear it shortly... I'll have to check it out on my- [laughs]... shortly and on the way, way home. Yeah. Uh, your favorite indulgent food? Wow.
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Favorite indulgent food. Oh, man. Why is that so hard to answer? 'Cause there's so many amazing- Yeah... foods. And I like to eat a lot.
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[laughs] Um, boy. Well, in the vein of pinot noir, one of the favorites- Right... um,
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would be, like, a really perfectly prepared duck breast. Um, actually, you know, maybe it's... I'll answer it this way.
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Possibly the best meal I've ever had was the dinner that, um, my wife made for our 10th anniversary, wedding anniversary. Oh, wow. And it was a duck that she used Vitaly Paley's recipe for. Um, and with a,
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not only a gravy, but a cherry reduction- Hmm... straight off the trees. That might be the best thing I've ever had with a glass of pinot noir. Oof. That sounds amazing.
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And I'm slowing down your rapid-fire questions, I apologize. [laughs] Oh, no, no, no. No need to apologize. If you could choose a superpower, what would it be? Oh, my son asks me this often, actually.
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[laughs] And just riffing off of his, uh, his recent, uh, conversation, it'd be telekinesis, for sure. Ooh, that would be nice. Yeah. Uh, your harvest notes, are they digital or handwritten? Uh, handwritten. Okay.
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And then the last book you read. It could've be, be also, like, an Audible book or, like, a podcast. Well, oh, boy. Uh, you know, I always have... I'm the kind where I have four going at once. Hmm. Um,
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but, uh, the last one I finished, I think, was a Christopher Moore book, Lamb. Okay. Yeah. I'll have to check that out. I'll have to check that out. Christopher Moore is wonderful.
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Uh, in the vein of sort of irreverence, uh, but with great perspective, like Kurt Vonnegut and Tom Robbins and- Right... a lot of metaphor and silly and serious all mixed together. Very nice. Very nice.
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Well, shall I reveal the blind wine? Sure. Okay. Do you wanna say anything else about it before I- Hmm... or you just- Yeah, give me a sec. Okay.
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And I have to say, um, I knew what wine I wanted to kinda get you. Yeah. And Lacey also was like, "Ooh, I think you should do this." I couldn't exactly find it quickly. Hmm.
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So when I was at the Backcountry Wine Bar on Saturday- Oh... I saw this, and I was like, "Hmm. All right. I will get that." Interesting. Hmm.
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There's, like, a... Beyond the fruits, there's, like, a hint of almost a eucalyptus that's reaching into my memory. [laughs] Wow. But yeah, I don't feel the need to try and identify- Okay... anything.
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I'd love to... I'm just trying to experience it before I have any context. That's a- I knew it. [laughs] I suspected. I didn't even wanna say it. Yep, yep. You shoulda just said it. Well, I, you know, I don't, uh...
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try not to engage my ego that much. Yeah. No, that, that's cool. No- But-... you know, with your time at Ill He- Right... I thought this was, you know, would be a perfect little, uh, bottle to- That is. Yeah, no.
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Fabulous vineyard, of course, and those guys are great, making wonderful wines.
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Um, the other interesting piece is it definitely quickly reminded me of 2021, and so to give them credit for so beautifully and transparently representing the vintage. Right. Um, yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool.
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Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. My great pleasure. Yes. Thank you for having me. Of course, anytime.
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[upbeat music] Thank you for joining me on this flavorful voyage through the world of wine on the Wine Notes podcast. I've been your host and guide, A.J.
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Winesettle, and it's been an absolute pleasure sharing these captivating stories with you. But alas, like the last sip of a fine vintage, our time together must end.
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But don't fret, my wine-loving friend, the cellar doors of the Wine Notes podcast will always remain open, waiting for you to return and explore new conversations, stories, and musings from the captivating people behind the magical world of wine.
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Before you go, hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and don't forget to leave a sparkling five-star review to help spread the word.
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Until our glasses clink again, remember to savor life's moments, and let the spirit of wine and camaraderie linger on your palate.
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Cheers, and as always, may your wine glass be full, your heart be light, and your journey be delightful. Thank you again.
