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Brad: Miriam Suzanne, hello.
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Miriam: Brad.
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How are you?
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Brad: I'm doing great.
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Let's get into it.
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What, what has you waking
up excited these days?
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Miriam: Oh yeah, that's a,
that's a rough question for me.
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I feel like, the last couple years,
haven't been the most exciting for me.
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except, I've been really trying to refocus
on w- what is it that gets me up excited?
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so that's meant a lot more
time in the pottery studio, a
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lot more time making theater.
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so we got a show coming up this weekend.
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been getting lights together for it.
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We're building a pottery
shed in the backyard.
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I teach pottery once a week.
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so it's mostly, it's mostly those things.
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It's the, the things that only cost me
money and, really let me yeah, make art.
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I wanna make art, so
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Brad: Yeah
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Miriam: that, that has me.
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And, and teaching people.
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I- collaborative stuff, teaching that
also, just so rewarding to be in a room
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with people and see people get excited
and help them get to the next step and
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have a breakthrough and, uh yeah, all that
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Brad: with the, with the
breakthrough stuff, are you mostly
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talking about the, the teaching
pottery or around the theater?
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'Cause you've been doing both for
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a, a long time, although I feel like
it's… I, I've seen your, your pottery
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stuff come online more in recent years
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Miriam: the pottery is the place
where I get to teach people
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directly in the room, right?
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So, I mean, I also have that
experience teaching web stuff.
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I mean, I love, I love that, although I
rarely get to do that in the room now.
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Everything is just a Zoom call or a
video or something, which that's fine.
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But it's fun to be in the
room with people and see them,
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see something click for them.
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And,
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Brad: Yeah
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Miriam: w- I'm teaching beginner wheel
in the pottery studio, so it's, like,
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really people going from zero to, like,
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Brad: Yeah
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Miriam: their first cylinder and,
like, you know, there's some moment
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there where something clicks for them.
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And, and, you know, I also hang out in the
studio, and there's lots of other people
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around, and we're helping each other.
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We're giving each other tips.
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So it's a similar sort of, like,
yeah, people ha- watching people
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have breakthroughs is, is really fun.
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Pottery is hard with,
like… I don't know.
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When I left college, I thought my options
were to become a full-time production
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potter, throwing the same piece over and
over every day, or never do pottery again
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because you need all this equipment.
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And so I just sort of assumed that
since I didn't have a path to becoming
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a production potter that I could see,
uh, I was never doing pottery again.
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So there were, like, 20 years
there where I didn't do it.
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and then somebody was like, "Oh, you know,
the rec center has a pottery studio. You
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can just go to the rec center." Uh, and
it changed everything, and, you know,
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now I, I go to a membership studio where
I get more access and, things like that.
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But
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Brad: it's heartbreaking that through
your experience that y-you're fed this
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binary or this, this, there's this
assumption, and I feel like I've had the
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same with a career as a musician versus
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Miriam: Totally.
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Brad: nothing.
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And, and there-- turns out you can kinda
do whatever you want, and there's like
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all sorts of ways you can carve out
space for it that doesn't need to be
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your everything, but it also doesn't
mean it needs to be your nothing either.
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And, and I, I wish that more
people at colleges and teaching
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environments specifically like
helped paint that picture a little
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bit better because it's like,
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Miriam: Yeah
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Brad: gets fed as this
like, "Here's the stuff.
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This is great.
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here for a reason.
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You enjoy it." And I don't know.
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Figure out, figure out what to do with it.
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actually just-- I just saw some
tap dancing over the weekend.
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We took my daughter to my wife's
hometown, they-- there's Busch
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Gardens there, and I was like,
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my wife used-- she used to
draw caricatures at Busch
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Gardens for like six years.
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So she's really damn good at drawing
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caricatures.
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But, so we, we took her to the park,
and they had these, these shows, and
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it was like straight up the whole
like Riverdance like all that stuff.
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And it was, it was like
some pretty serious stuff.
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Like there's like a lot of time and energy
that go into a big production like that.
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I'm sure not, not dissimilar to
your, to your theater productions.
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There's like a lot of coordination,
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Miriam: Yeah
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Brad: of work, and you could feel
the work that goes into that and
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Miriam: Aha
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Brad: it whenever you,
you experience that.
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So I don't know.
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Yeah.
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Could you, could you talk about
that, that kind of experience?
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Like putting on a theater
production is like such a effort.
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Miriam: Yeah, it is.
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And I, I mean, I guess I don't
know what to say about it.
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It's sort of like it's what I've always
done, and it's what I've always enjoyed.
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Uh, theater is what I studied.
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Um, the web was a mistake.
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i- and it is for me, it's sort
of like theater, theater is just
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sort of all of the arts together.
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It's just like, well, you can throw
music in there, you can throw design
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in there, you can throw tech in there.
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it is dance, it is writing,
it's just everything, and put
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together in whatever way you want.
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I don't know, I've always approached
it in this hybrid way, where I'm like
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I, I don't care too much about genre.
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That's not a thing I care about.
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I don't care too much about,
is it more dance or is it more
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writing or is it more music?
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we make shows, often my company that
have a lot of music in them, uh, to
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the point where I would say, like,
you could classify it as a musical,
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but you'd be misleading people because
if they're expecting a musical to
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be the thing that they've always
known as a musical, it's not that.
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Words are confusing, right?
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Labels are confusing 'cause
they start to, I don't know,
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they start to take on baggage of
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Brad: Yeah
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Miriam: how we've used them or what genres
people have latched onto in some way.
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But I just find that sort of
hybrid communal problem-solving
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really interesting.
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How are we gonna, how are
we gonna pull this off?
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How are we gonna make this an
experience that brings people in,
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that, has people asking whatever
questions we're looking at?
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and I think for us, trying to make it
so that we're not telling people how
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to feel about something, we're asking
them to have feelings about something.
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You know, does that…
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If that makes sense.
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So it's not
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like…
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Brad: perfect sense.
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Yeah
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Miriam: Yeah, so not like all of
us are gonna cry at this moment,
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but like, here, here's something.
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how do you, what do you bring to it?
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What is, what's your reaction?
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What's,
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Brad: I've alwa- I've always found that
fascinating about art in general, because
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whenever you read about certain artists,
certain artists do come to the table
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with, "I do want to elicit this emotion
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from people." Or people are protective
and are like, "No, this is being
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misinterpreted," or whatever.
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And then there's other people that
seem to have, the awareness that it's
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like, this is a conversation or this
i- this isn't-- it's not up to us to,
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guide everyone or get
everyone to the same place.
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Like, everyone's going
to bring their own stuff.
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So, so it sounds like you're leaning into
that, like, kind of more, we are going
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to d- present you some stuff, and it's
your job to engage with it and come away
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with your own, feelings and thoughts
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Miriam: Y- yeah, and
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it's,
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our job to give you something
worth responding to or that's gonna
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draw you into the conversation.
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I mean, we sort of have this, like…
In certain ways, our approaches come
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out of sort of experimental traditions.
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But there's this place where, like,
experimental also is this word that has
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become sort of synonymous with, like, I
don't, I don't care how you experience it.
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Like, fuck you, here's, here's my art.
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Deal with it.
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Brad: Yeah,
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Miriam: And we sort of feel
like, well, that's not, that's
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not how, that's not how we are.
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Brad: Yeah.
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Miriam: want to bring you in, but we
want to experiment in how we bring you
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in, and we want to try things, and we
want to see if you'll come with us.
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And there's some way
to, yeah, I don't know.
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You know, user testing is
experimentation with this idea that
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we're gonna try to bring you in.
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And I think, you know, that
can get gross in other ways
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of, like pandering or whatever.
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But finding this, like, how do we, how
do we try things and experiment and
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bring you along for that ride so you're
invited into something maybe a little
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different from what you've seen other
places, but but you're welcome in it?
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Brad: Yeah.
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Miriam: pushing you away.
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Brad: Yeah.
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I love it.
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And I-- you're, you're painting
this picture of there's this idea
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of kinda like labels and words
carry with them connotation, carry
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with them like, "Ah, yes, even
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Miriam: Sort of the main thing they do.
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Brad: Well, right.
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And but it's the double-edged
sword because, yeah,
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Miriam: Yeah
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Brad: can translate to, ah, yes, you're
just like hammers on the floor for an hour
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and forty-five minutes to, like, a noise
rock soundtrack, which, which could be
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Miriam: It'd be good.
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Brad: but yeah, it could be good.
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But, like, but maybe
isn't, isn't the thing.
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But it s- it sounds like, like a lot of
what you're exploring with the theater
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company is, like, how do we put something
in front of you, something that, that
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doesn't necessarily fit your, your
preconceived notions, and to do that
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in a way that doesn't… Like, like,
like you said, you're, you're welcome
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into it, and, and we want to bring
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Miriam: Right
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Brad: it, and we want
you to engage with it.
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That, it's really fascinating.
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Like, because I, I think that it doesn't
have that same like, yeah, fuck you spirit
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of like, "Here, we're out here. We're,
we're going to do this." It sounds, like,
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very intentionally designed, where it's
like we care a lot about originality.
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We care a lot about this creative thing.
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The, the genre, the, the musicality or
whatever might b-be changing with each
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production, but it's like we're Would you
say that that's like the theme across,
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like, your years of doing this, is
like doing original stuff that's trying
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to, like, kinda continue to put yet
another original brick after the next?
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Is that, is
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Miriam: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I
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Brad: or…?
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Miriam: mean, I, I struggle a little
bit with the word original just because
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I don't know how much I believe that
I'm coming up with something new.
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Brad: Sure
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Miriam: think I, I guess, I don't know.
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Authentic isn't quite right either
'cause I, I sort of don't believe
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in authenticity as a thing.
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I believe in, I don't know,
integrity or something like
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Brad: right, all right.
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00:11:19,629
Let's talk about, let's talk about your
disbelief of the, the authenticity,
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'cause that like, that, that, that
for me is, is a word I, I, I wield.
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00:11:25,319
I think it's a very
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Miriam: Yeah
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Brad: So, so yeah, tell me about your
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disbelief of
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Miriam: I don't know.
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I don't, I don't believe that there's,
like, one true self or something.
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you know, I exist differently in different
circles and in different spaces, and
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Brad: Mm-hmm.
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Miriam: all of those are true to me.
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So I think the danger of
authenticity is this, like, what
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I'm never allowed to change?
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00:11:57,836
I'm never allowed to have, have different
ways of being in different places?
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Brad: Mm-hmm.
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00:12:02,736
Miriam: I'm supposed to be, I don't
know, Mark Zuckerberg's one unified
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identity across, across all of life?
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00:12:08,976
Like, I'm not… I don't think
that that's a real thing.
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I don't, you know, I'm queer.
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00:12:15,476
I don't like born this way narratives
that sort of are like, "No, no, it's
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00:12:21,686
okay because it was predetermined
and and we're stuck with that."
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00:12:28,316
I like instead saying "I'm alive.
I'm, like, I'm literally alive."
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00:12:32,506
And being alive is growing and
changing, and that's all it is.
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Brad: Yeah
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00:12:37,166
Miriam: so I get to, I get to
absolutely be different until I die.
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Brad: Yes.
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Miriam: That's, the whole thing.
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Brad: Yes.
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Yes
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Miriam: So yeah, so I worry about
authenticity as some, like, I
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don't know, l- locking in of,
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Brad: Yeah, yeah.
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Yep,
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Miriam: yeah.
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Brad: parameters.
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Th-this I've defined
authentic in that, that
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00:13:02,418
becomes the static thing that if you find
yourself outside of those lines suddenly,
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then oops, all of a sudden you're not,
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Miriam: Right.
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Brad: you're authentic.
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So yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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00:13:11,178
No, it's-- I, I, I like everything
you're saying there, and I, I
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00:13:14,718
think that that's, that's just
gets back into to words, right?
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And their, their
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Miriam: Yeah.
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Brad: how they get conveyed.
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'Cause like
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Miriam: Sure
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Brad: that your, your entire alive
self is your auth-authentic self.
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Your,
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Miriam: Right.
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Brad: CSS spec writing
self, as well as your
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musician self, as well, as well as your
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Miriam: Yeah
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Brad: as well as your, your queer self.
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00:13:37,248
Like it's like all, it's is it…
I think it's Walt Whitman that's
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00:13:39,008
like, "I contain multitudes," right?
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And
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Miriam: Right, exactly.
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Brad: awesome.
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That's amazing.
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I'm gonna need to look this up.
285
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00:13:47,683
There's a, there's a restaurant in
Pittsburgh that ha- that carries this
286
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00:13:54,383
name, but it's, it basically like defies
explanation or defies d-defies definition.
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00:13:56,228
we had our baby shower there.
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00:13:56,828
I really
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Miriam: Okay.
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Brad: know this better.
291
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00:14:00,502
So it's like, ineffable.
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00:14:01,742
Ineffable.
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Ineffable.
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00:14:02,942
yeah.
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00:14:03,634
Miriam: Okay.
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Yeah, interesting.
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Brad: yeah, yeah.
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Miriam: Yeah
299
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00:14:09,332
Brad: like kinda defying definition, which
300
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00:14:09,866
Miriam: Right.
301
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00:14:14,272
Brad: kind of… It's, it's, that's
kind of a fun and beautiful thing,
302
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00:14:17,702
and I've always, I've always, kind
of like enjoyed hanging out in that
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00:14:22,232
territory where a lot of times people,
like including j-- I was just with some
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00:14:27,642
family, and my cousin brought some,
some in-law kind of family around,
305
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00:14:29,172
and so it was like, "And here's Brad."
306
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00:14:34,412
And it's like, "What do you do again?"
And it's like, I kinda like now
307
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00:14:34,992
hanging out
308
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00:14:35,314
"
Miriam: Yeah,
309
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00:14:37,444
Yeah, Yeah, What do I do?
310
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00:14:39,942
Brad: Yeah, what do I do?" Yeah.
311
00:14:40,132 -->
00:14:42,622
I kinda like not having, like
312
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00:14:46,652
a single answer to that, or it's,
it-- back to Mark Zuckerberg,
313
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00:14:47,892
it's complicated, right?
314
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00:14:48,492
Relationship
315
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00:14:48,762
Miriam: Yeah.
316
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00:14:49,412
Brad: status.
317
00:14:49,742 -->
00:14:50,742
It's complicated.
318
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00:14:52,162
It's complicated.
319
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00:14:54,950
Miriam: Well, and I think, I
think, you know, I have some r-
320
00:14:55,350 -->
00:14:58,580
reaction to anything that makes
it sound like I think I'm special.
321
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00:15:01,540
or, or more special than other people.
322
00:15:01,596 -->
00:15:02,006
Brad: Yeah
323
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00:15:05,850
Miriam: Just like I don't, I don't
believe that it's like I'm bringing
324
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00:15:10,260
something totally unique and original
and, and, and outside anything that
325
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00:15:11,730
you've ever experienced before.
326
00:15:12,140 -->
00:15:14,640
Except that I'm bringing my
experience, and you probably haven't
327
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00:15:16,440
experienced my experience before.
328
00:15:17,052 -->
00:15:17,412
Brad: Yeah
329
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00:15:22,380
Miriam: I'm just not focused
on genre as the goal.
330
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00:15:26,380
Usually… I mean, sometimes genre's
interesting to focus on, to be like,
331
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00:15:28,310
" Here's the conventions of a genre.
332
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00:15:29,930
What happens if we push it?"
333
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00:15:33,177
We actually had a great
experience as the band once.
334
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00:15:39,807
We were like, "Let's write a dance song.
What is a dance song?" And like we had
335
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00:15:45,637
to go looking, and we like found this
structure that was like, this is a, this
336
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00:15:47,997
is a pretty classic dance structure.
337
00:15:48,687 -->
00:15:52,197
Let's do our best to write into that.
338
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00:15:55,647
And we got a great song from it,
and I think a lot of people would
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00:15:57,277
be like, "That's not a dance song."
340
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00:15:59,267
And we'd be like, "Well, we tried."
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00:16:00,203
Brad: Yeah.
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00:16:00,517 -->
00:16:04,287
Miriam: and we got something interesting
from putting our aesthetic onto
343
00:16:04,287 -->
00:16:09,627
that structure and, and trying to
do what our take on a dance song is.
344
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00:16:10,517
Brad: Yeah.
345
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00:16:11,077
And, and,
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00:16:11,327
Miriam: I th- I-
347
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00:16:12,617
Brad: and that, that's great.
348
00:16:12,657 -->
00:16:15,737
That's great creative inspiration,
and I think that that's like,
349
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00:16:18,287
you see a lot of artists do that.
350
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00:16:22,597
I f- like, for whatever reason over,
like as you were saying that, I thought
351
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00:16:27,246
of like the Stones song that was like
their like disco song that is like you
352
00:16:27,366 -->
00:16:31,126
have no business writing a disco song,
but they, they did the same thing.
353
00:16:31,126 -->
00:16:33,466
They're just like, "I don't know,
like, let's, like, try this out."
354
00:16:33,486 -->
00:16:37,866
And then they have, end up with,
like, a bigger hit song out of it
355
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00:16:38,598
Miriam: Yeah, I mean, it's
356
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00:16:38,846
Brad: like,
357
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00:16:42,997
Miriam: that's a little bit like, like
Velvet Underground's Loaded or Lou Reed.
358
00:16:43,237 -->
00:16:44,247
Lou Reed, Velvet Underground?
359
00:16:44,503 -->
00:16:47,673
Where they were like, Lou Reed
couldn't write a hit, and he was
360
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00:16:51,143
like, "Here, I'll, I'll write an album
loaded with hits." And it worked.
361
00:16:51,313 -->
00:16:51,873
He did.
362
00:16:52,646 -->
00:16:56,236
Brad: but it, but it sounds like you,
you're almost, like, approaching it a-
363
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00:17:01,726
almost as, like, an anthropologist or
researcher that's kind of deconstructing
364
00:17:01,866 -->
00:17:05,386
the anatomy of a dance song or exploring a
365
00:17:05,386 -->
00:17:10,826
genre and saying, "What are the qualities
of this thing?" And that surfaces the bits
366
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00:17:13,056
that give you things to, like, latch onto
367
00:17:13,126 -->
00:17:13,606
that allow
368
00:17:13,628 -->
00:17:13,998
Miriam: Yeah
369
00:17:14,726 -->
00:17:17,296
Brad: to, to play by the rules, and then
370
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00:17:18,056
Miriam: Mm-hmm.
371
00:17:18,446 -->
00:17:20,096
Brad: bend and then break them, and…
372
00:17:20,523 -->
00:17:21,203
That's beautiful.
373
00:17:21,223 -->
00:17:27,273
So, so your show that's this
weekend, long have you and everybody
374
00:17:27,273 -->
00:17:29,353
involved in it been working on this?
375
00:17:29,751 -->
00:17:32,421
Miriam: Well, so this is-- this
one's a little bit different from…
376
00:17:32,721 -->
00:17:37,071
We sort of have two sides to our
theater company parallel tracks.
377
00:17:37,171 -->
00:17:42,981
And they're sort of related in how
we view the world but very much
378
00:17:43,051 -->
00:17:45,141
unrelated in terms of what happens.
379
00:17:45,471 -->
00:17:51,496
So on the one side, we're creating, like,
an original show every year or so Like,
380
00:17:51,516 -->
00:17:58,022
we're starting to write the, the one for
next year simultaneously my co-founder,
381
00:17:58,152 -->
00:18:05,392
Julie has been doing work inside prisons
for I don't know, 15 years, maybe more.
382
00:18:06,022 -->
00:18:11,052
And we've sort of taken that on
underneath our q- our company.
383
00:18:11,462 -->
00:18:15,922
So this one is the guys
inside Lyman Correctional
384
00:18:15,922 -->
00:18:18,022
Facility doing "12 Angry Men."
385
00:18:18,382 -->
00:18:19,202
Brad: Amazing.
386
00:18:19,282 -->
00:18:20,412
Oh my God
387
00:18:20,971 -->
00:18:25,361
Miriam: This weekend we'll take
all of our lighting equipment
388
00:18:25,361 -->
00:18:26,491
and everything that we can.
389
00:18:26,861 -->
00:18:28,851
I mean, we have to send them
a list in advance and get
390
00:18:28,851 -->
00:18:30,261
everything approved and then,
391
00:18:30,739 -->
00:18:31,149
Brad: Yeah
392
00:18:31,349 -->
00:18:35,479
Miriam: take two hours to get it all
checked in through security and whatever,
393
00:18:35,499 -->
00:18:41,789
and then we're just in the gym for two
days trying to set everything up, write
394
00:18:41,789 -->
00:18:47,889
all the cues, do a tech run with the
actors and then do two performances
395
00:18:47,889 -->
00:18:50,139
of it and pack it all up and get out.
396
00:18:50,863 -->
00:18:51,573
Brad: Oh my
397
00:18:51,769 -->
00:18:57,669
Miriam: so really tight turnaround and
under, under some extreme conditions.
398
00:18:57,743 -->
00:18:59,173
Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
399
00:18:59,273 -->
00:19:04,003
So, so is this your first time
doing, like doing it this way?
400
00:19:04,003 -->
00:19:05,343
You're saying that Jolie was,
401
00:19:05,385 -->
00:19:06,185
Miriam: No, we've…
402
00:19:06,213 -->
00:19:06,633
Brad: with it.
403
00:19:06,715 -->
00:19:10,385
Miriam: Yeah, Julie's been doing it for
a long time, but yeah, it's been, it's
404
00:19:10,385 -->
00:19:12,095
been under Grapefruit Lab for a while.
405
00:19:12,105 -->
00:19:13,895
We've been doing it and yeah.
406
00:19:13,925 -->
00:19:17,505
So this'll be, this'll be the third
or fourth show that I've worked on
407
00:19:18,285 -->
00:19:22,815
It's a two-hour drive each way and
I haven't been able to fit it into
408
00:19:22,815 -->
00:19:27,505
my sort of weekly schedule, but I
often come in for the production
409
00:19:28,075 -->
00:19:30,435
doing the, helping set up the tech
410
00:19:30,635 -->
00:19:33,935
Brad: I mean, that, that has to be
like, could you d- like describe
411
00:19:34,115 -->
00:19:37,215
the, the like atmosphere like,
like for all like the actors,
412
00:19:37,215 -->
00:19:39,015
everyone like participating in that?
413
00:19:39,795 -->
00:19:42,575
c- I would have to imagine that
that is like something that they're
414
00:19:42,575 -->
00:19:46,105
like latching onto and, and enjoying
415
00:19:46,255 -->
00:19:50,495
Miriam: I think one thing that
I, I really like about Julie's
416
00:19:50,495 -->
00:19:56,075
approach to this is that it's really
focused on, They already have art.
417
00:19:56,155 -->
00:19:58,395
They are, they are artists already.
418
00:19:58,555 -->
00:20:02,275
They don't need to, us to come
in and, like, bring them art.
419
00:20:02,565 -->
00:20:04,505
They're making art all the time.
420
00:20:04,985 -->
00:20:09,255
So what we bring is sort
of a professionalization,
421
00:20:09,857 -->
00:20:10,177
Brad: Yeah.
422
00:20:10,605 -->
00:20:14,575
Miriam: here's, here's how
we're, we're just gonna treat
423
00:20:14,575 -->
00:20:16,305
you as professional actors.
424
00:20:16,445 -->
00:20:20,835
And we're gonna give you training
to help you step up to it.
425
00:20:21,485 -->
00:20:27,845
And but you're, you're the, you're a
creative in this process just like us.
426
00:20:27,945 -->
00:20:29,405
So we're facilitating,
427
00:20:30,003 -->
00:20:30,323
Brad: Yeah.
428
00:20:30,523 -->
00:20:34,783
Miriam: we're bringing in the equipment to
make it possible to do a full production.
429
00:20:35,403 -->
00:20:39,643
Even if it's gonna be in a gym
with random security lights on.
430
00:20:39,743 -->
00:20:41,703
We're gonna bring in costumes.
431
00:20:41,703 -->
00:20:43,753
We're gonna make it
possible to really do this.
432
00:20:43,753 -->
00:20:44,103
So
433
00:20:44,209 -->
00:20:44,719
Brad: That's
434
00:20:44,943 -->
00:20:45,603
Miriam: yeah, so
435
00:20:45,699 -->
00:20:46,129
Brad: It's so
436
00:20:46,173 -->
00:20:49,463
Miriam: it's really this like we're
just gonna, we're gonna give you the
437
00:20:49,463 -->
00:20:55,370
space for collaborating and making art
together uh, in a professional setting.
438
00:20:55,873 -->
00:20:56,193
yeah.
439
00:20:56,193 -->
00:20:59,193
Brad: love how you use the, the word
facilitate, 'cause that, that's what
440
00:20:59,193 -->
00:20:59,973
it sounds like.
441
00:20:59,993 -->
00:21:04,042
It's like, and to, to sort of draw
a line to your pottery teaching
442
00:21:04,042 -->
00:21:07,422
as well, that's, that's also the
443
00:21:07,656 -->
00:21:08,106
Miriam: Yeah.
444
00:21:08,192 -->
00:21:08,562
Brad: worth
445
00:21:08,756 -->
00:21:09,146
Miriam: yeah
446
00:21:09,372 -->
00:21:14,693
Brad: like it's not like, I
am, creative artist person,
447
00:21:14,723 -->
00:21:16,953
and I will teach you to be an
448
00:21:16,953 -->
00:21:17,303
artist."
449
00:21:17,343 -->
00:21:21,073
It's like, It's like, has
an innate creative capacity.
450
00:21:21,471 -->
00:21:21,851
Miriam: Yeah.
451
00:21:21,853 -->
00:21:25,023
Brad: is an artist, whether they
think of themselves that way or
452
00:21:25,111 -->
00:21:25,711
Miriam: Yeah.
453
00:21:25,823 -->
00:21:30,653
Brad: and your job is to just extract it,
facilitate it, and just give them the,
454
00:21:30,655 -->
00:21:31,125
Miriam: Yeah.
455
00:21:31,593 -->
00:21:31,923
Brad: and
456
00:21:31,945 -->
00:21:34,305
Miriam: something in there,
there's something in there I
457
00:21:34,305 -->
00:21:35,865
wanna get into at some point.
458
00:21:36,265 -->
00:21:39,235
But I don't wanna veer us off of
prison work if there's more there.
459
00:21:39,275 -->
00:21:41,985
But I've been thinking a
lot about creativity lately.
460
00:21:42,645 -->
00:21:44,205
So if you wanna veer into that
461
00:21:44,805 -->
00:21:45,405
Brad: Go for it.
462
00:21:45,405 -->
00:21:46,175
Please tell me.
463
00:21:46,235 -->
00:21:46,825
Tell me
464
00:21:47,485 -->
00:21:50,505
Miriam: Well, there's, there's sort
of two things that I'm holding up next
465
00:21:50,505 -->
00:21:52,235
to each other thinking about this.
466
00:21:52,255 -->
00:21:58,555
One is, like, why didn't I become
a production potter out of college?
467
00:21:58,863 -->
00:22:01,113
that could've been a
path I pursued, right?
468
00:22:01,143 -->
00:22:03,313
And I was taking a lot of pottery.
469
00:22:03,363 -->
00:22:07,738
Like, I, I could've finished with
a pottery degree, and I could've
470
00:22:08,438 -->
00:22:11,968
gone to somewhere to apprentice.
471
00:22:12,528 -->
00:22:13,368
Why didn't I do that?
472
00:22:13,828 -->
00:22:18,588
And I think part of it was at the time
I had this, I had this sense of like,
473
00:22:19,388 -->
00:22:23,108
"No, I need to make original things
that are creative." And then I, I
474
00:22:23,108 -->
00:22:25,308
didn't have enough… I don't know.
475
00:22:25,928 -->
00:22:32,628
I was, I was scared that production
pottery would be, not creative
476
00:22:32,688 -->
00:22:37,888
enough or something, and that
I didn't have the vision for
477
00:22:38,178 -->
00:22:40,598
something totally unique, right?
478
00:22:41,058 -->
00:22:45,028
And so did I end up not doing pottery
for 20 years because I had some
479
00:22:45,028 -->
00:22:48,928
unrealistic expectation of what making
art is or what being an artist is?
480
00:22:49,078 -->
00:22:50,668
And is, is that sad?
481
00:22:50,868 -->
00:22:55,318
So that's the one side of what
I'm thinking about or, or one, one
482
00:22:55,518 -->
00:22:56,658
piece that I'm throwing in there.
483
00:22:56,658 -->
00:22:59,168
The other is, so I, I
do a pottery market now.
484
00:22:59,168 -->
00:23:00,618
I, I go to these markets.
485
00:23:00,618 -->
00:23:02,238
I'm selling my stuff.
486
00:23:02,238 -->
00:23:05,598
I have it out at a table, and people
come up all the time and they say,
487
00:23:05,598 -->
00:23:07,798
"I'm not creative like you," right?
488
00:23:07,818 -->
00:23:10,418
And I'm selling mugs and bowls and shit.
489
00:23:10,618 -->
00:23:14,451
And I'm like what here
could you not learn to do?
490
00:23:15,191 -->
00:23:19,381
All that I did was I looked at
the shape of a mug and I thought,
491
00:23:19,581 -->
00:23:21,521
" What's my opinion about it?
492
00:23:21,621 -->
00:23:27,211
What, what shape do I like?" And then
I made that shape, and I keep making
493
00:23:27,211 -->
00:23:32,201
that shape trying to, like, hone it
and, like, how can I… Every time I get
494
00:23:32,201 -->
00:23:36,221
one out of the kiln, I'm like, "Yeah,
okay, but I have one more opinion."
495
00:23:36,871 -->
00:23:41,012
And I go back I'm just looking at
things and bringing my opinion to them.
496
00:23:41,162 -->
00:23:45,322
And I love that, and I love that
I'm not worried about whether it's
497
00:23:45,522 -->
00:23:51,282
totally unique or I'm just like,
"What, what's my point of view?
498
00:23:52,002 -->
00:23:54,362
When I look at this, what do I like?
499
00:23:54,842 -->
00:23:56,152
What would I like better?
500
00:23:56,922 -->
00:24:01,229
How can I, how can I shift it?" and
now I'm like, "Oh, I'd be happy doing
501
00:24:01,229 -->
00:24:06,663
production pottery." Like, if my, if
that's just, like, I spend all day
502
00:24:07,053 -->
00:24:11,743
thinking about what I like in a mug,
and trying different things and then
503
00:24:11,743 -->
00:24:16,083
making a bunch of them, and then other
people use them and maybe like them,
504
00:24:16,283 -->
00:24:16,293
Brad: Mm-hmm.
505
00:24:16,493 -->
00:24:17,283
Miriam: that's great.
506
00:24:17,403 -->
00:24:18,563
That's so great.
507
00:24:18,663 -->
00:24:19,843
So that's, yeah, that's…
508
00:24:19,977 -->
00:24:20,887
Brad: 20 years.
509
00:24:21,613 -->
00:24:22,623
Miriam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
510
00:24:22,791 -->
00:24:25,941
Brad: but I think, I think that what
you're touching on is something that
511
00:24:25,941 -->
00:24:29,241
so many people, all of those people
that are approaching you at the
512
00:24:29,241 -->
00:24:32,951
markets and stuff saying, "I'm not
creative," or talking themselves out
513
00:24:32,951 -->
00:24:37,711
of it, and so much of it has to do
with, "Here's my preconceived notion
514
00:24:37,751 -->
00:24:40,351
of what an artist is or what a creative
515
00:24:40,361 -->
00:24:44,871
person is, and, and, and here's
what they do specifically."
516
00:24:44,921 -->
00:24:48,981
Or if you're, if you do this kind of,
like, music or whatever, then, like,
517
00:24:48,991 -->
00:24:50,891
here's what that looks like.
518
00:24:51,141 -->
00:24:55,431
And, and it's out- it's outward-facing,
where it's like, here's somebody
519
00:24:55,441 -->
00:24:58,131
else looking in at me and what their
520
00:24:58,367 -->
00:24:58,707
Miriam: Right
521
00:24:59,031 -->
00:25:04,521
Brad: are, and do I have that to put
myself up against this invisible,
522
00:25:04,561 -->
00:25:08,611
invented audience almost, and,
like, receive their judgment?
523
00:25:09,331 -->
00:25:13,261
That then ends up talking you
out of the whole affair, right?
524
00:25:13,291 -->
00:25:13,941
And then, And then,
525
00:25:13,951 -->
00:25:14,861
you never do it.
526
00:25:14,901 -->
00:25:15,461
And, and it--
527
00:25:15,651 -->
00:25:18,991
and what you're describing is, like,
this, this kind of like almost like
528
00:25:18,991 -->
00:25:23,221
a, a kind of going inward, and then
you realize, oh, the only person you
529
00:25:23,221 -->
00:25:28,301
really have to satisfy is your, your
own self and your own curiosity,
530
00:25:28,351 -->
00:25:33,751
and give yourself the permission to
explore what you think is interesting.
531
00:25:34,501 -->
00:25:35,071
Miriam: Yeah.
532
00:25:35,271 -->
00:25:35,771
Yeah.
533
00:25:36,097 -->
00:25:37,067
Brad: That's freaking beautiful.
534
00:25:37,511 -->
00:25:41,721
it's the old trope of, like, you
know, art versus design, I suppose.
535
00:25:41,761 -->
00:25:44,721
But, like, know each other through
536
00:25:44,793 -->
00:25:45,133
Miriam: Yeah
537
00:25:45,241 -->
00:25:48,551
Brad: and our work, and we both have
done, like, client services stuff, and,
538
00:25:48,551 -->
00:25:51,151
like, that's a, it's a different gig than
539
00:25:51,773 -->
00:25:52,153
Miriam: Yeah
540
00:25:52,341 -->
00:25:54,571
Brad: think is interesting
and let me do more of that.
541
00:25:55,099 -->
00:26:00,579
Miriam: Well, I think a little bit of what
I'm saying is that having had a career
542
00:26:00,639 -->
00:26:06,719
in both, I don't see a difference, or I
feel like they help each other out, right?
543
00:26:06,899 -->
00:26:10,389
They're… Like, when I make
a mug, I am just doing design.
544
00:26:10,589 -->
00:26:14,509
But instead of a client,
well, I have customers.
545
00:26:15,119 -->
00:26:17,169
I, you know, I, okay.
546
00:26:17,589 -->
00:26:21,619
Or I mean, even if I didn't sell
at a market, I'm giving them
547
00:26:21,619 -->
00:26:23,269
to friends or something, right?
548
00:26:23,299 -->
00:26:27,969
And so I'm getting this… I'm getting
some sort of feedback from, from people.
549
00:26:27,969 -->
00:26:31,469
I'm trying to build something
that is gonna relate to people.
550
00:26:31,489 -->
00:26:33,279
That's the same thing
I'm doing in the theater.
551
00:26:33,729 -->
00:26:38,629
I'm trying to build something that
tells a story that or, or brings
552
00:26:38,629 -->
00:26:43,329
up some questions, or y- presents
an aesthetic or whatever it is.
553
00:26:43,459 -->
00:26:50,089
And for me, it's not gonna be done until
other people have interacted with it, and,
554
00:26:50,479 -->
00:26:53,099
and I am concerned about that interaction.
555
00:26:53,129 -->
00:26:57,409
I want, I want this to reach
people in some way, right?
556
00:26:57,409 -->
00:26:59,049
Even if it's very few people.
557
00:26:59,529 -->
00:26:59,739
Brad: GPT
558
00:26:59,877 -->
00:27:01,907
Miriam: I want to hear
their reactions to it.
559
00:27:01,917 -->
00:27:05,827
That's why I'm doing… I'm not
doing it just for the process
560
00:27:05,837 -->
00:27:09,097
for me to express something.
561
00:27:09,147 -->
00:27:09,627
I don't know.
562
00:27:09,627 -->
00:27:13,347
I'm, I'm sort of, I'm trying
to be part of a conversation.
563
00:27:13,891 -->
00:27:14,251
Brad: Yeah.
564
00:27:14,501 -->
00:27:14,801
Yeah
565
00:27:15,087 -->
00:27:19,217
Miriam: and I see that very similar
to doing… Like, client work
566
00:27:19,297 -->
00:27:24,207
changes the power dynamics but
it's, to me, the same process.
567
00:27:24,697 -->
00:27:29,487
I just now have to, yeah, uh,
bring somebody else along in a
568
00:27:29,487 -->
00:27:31,127
way that they have more power.
569
00:27:31,917 -->
00:27:32,337
I don't know
570
00:27:32,413 -->
00:27:35,333
Brad: It's like you're, you're I think
that you're touching on something
571
00:27:35,333 -->
00:27:39,043
that is, that is interesting, is that,
like, everything is interpersonal,
572
00:27:39,073 -->
00:27:42,733
even, like, self-expression isn't--
You're, you're not… There, there's
573
00:27:42,733 -->
00:27:44,023
one artist that comes to mind.
574
00:27:44,023 -->
00:27:48,393
He was, like, like a janitor that spent,
like, 30 years constructing this, like,
575
00:27:48,403 -->
00:27:53,583
giant church out of, like, scrap, like,
foil for, like, 30 years, and they,
576
00:27:53,583 -->
00:27:55,073
like, only found it after he died.
577
00:27:55,083 -->
00:27:55,893
It was just wild.
578
00:27:55,915 -->
00:27:56,685
Miriam: Wow.
579
00:27:57,065 -->
00:27:58,955
Yeah, Yeah, Really for himself
580
00:27:59,053 -->
00:27:59,323
Brad: own.
581
00:27:59,393 -->
00:28:00,153
Right, right, right.
582
00:28:00,433 -->
00:28:04,243
But, like, most art and expression
and e-especially things like
583
00:28:04,243 -->
00:28:05,653
theater, yeah, there's this, this
584
00:28:05,663 -->
00:28:09,183
bi-directional kinda
relationship with other people.
585
00:28:09,533 -->
00:28:12,933
And I like how you said that, like,
client work is that, but there's, like…
586
00:28:12,963 -->
00:28:15,183
Yeah, it, it shifts the power dynamic.
587
00:28:15,183 -->
00:28:20,203
It's not like, "I hope everybody--
creating my art. I'm in full control over,
588
00:28:20,233 -->
00:28:24,943
like, like, the process and the outcomes,
and, like, up to the customers or the
589
00:28:24,963 -->
00:28:28,893
audience to see if it lands with them or
not." Like, with the client, you're like,
590
00:28:29,495 -->
00:28:29,995
Miriam: Yeah.
591
00:28:30,153 -->
00:28:33,553
Brad: need them to be on
the ride with you as, as
592
00:28:33,553 -->
00:28:35,323
a collaborator a little bit, and
593
00:28:35,653 -->
00:28:35,983
Yeah.
594
00:28:36,055 -->
00:28:36,485
Miriam: Yeah.
595
00:28:36,485 -->
00:28:39,835
But to a certain extent, I feel like,
you know I don't know, Julie and I
596
00:28:39,845 -->
00:28:41,545
have this theater company, right?
597
00:28:41,545 -->
00:28:44,395
We bring other people in 'cause
we're rarely doing shows that
598
00:28:44,395 -->
00:28:45,695
just the two of us can pull off.
599
00:28:46,415 -->
00:28:52,615
So in that case, we sort of have final
say, but that's sort of just like we're
600
00:28:52,615 -->
00:28:54,245
the clients or something, you know?
601
00:28:54,285 -->
00:28:59,675
Like, and we've got other, other
creative professionals involved and
602
00:28:59,735 -->
00:29:04,585
they're participating, but it's, for
them, a bit like client work, right?
603
00:29:04,745 -->
00:29:07,325
Like, 'cause we've got
some sort of final say.
604
00:29:07,955 -->
00:29:11,865
so that's not so different
from a client hires me.
605
00:29:11,865 -->
00:29:13,705
I'm just on the other
side of that equation.
606
00:29:14,257 -->
00:29:14,887
I'm often…
607
00:29:14,897 -->
00:29:19,757
You know, I, I see myself as a designer
as brought in to facilitate the process.
608
00:29:19,757 -->
00:29:24,887
Like, well, one of the first big jobs
that we got at Oddbird was working on
609
00:29:24,887 -->
00:29:28,117
a project for Mozilla, and I panicked.
610
00:29:28,227 -->
00:29:33,257
I mean, w- I had just been doing
web development a couple years and
611
00:29:33,257 -->
00:29:40,117
I was like, "What do I have to teach
Mozilla about web development?"
612
00:29:40,267 -->
00:29:45,987
But it very quickly became clear that I
wasn't working with a team of designers.
613
00:29:45,987 -->
00:29:50,275
I was working with a team
of, product engineers who had
614
00:29:50,275 -->
00:29:52,305
never built a website, right?
615
00:29:52,477 -->
00:29:52,627
Brad: Mm-hmm.
616
00:29:52,827 -->
00:29:55,367
Miriam: and so I did
have something to bring.
617
00:29:55,677 -->
00:29:57,797
I was filling a different role.
618
00:29:57,877 -->
00:30:00,037
They have designers at Mozilla somewhere
619
00:30:00,237 -->
00:30:00,627
Brad: Yeah.
620
00:30:00,653 -->
00:30:01,683
Miriam: not on that team.
621
00:30:02,154 -->
00:30:06,234
we were bringing in… They
knew how to build Firefox, and
622
00:30:06,234 -->
00:30:07,624
they knew that better than me.
623
00:30:08,264 -->
00:30:11,844
But I knew how to build a website
that would work in Firefox , and
624
00:30:11,844 -->
00:30:14,334
I knew that better than this
team that I was working with.
625
00:30:14,494 -->
00:30:14,864
Brad: Yeah.
626
00:30:14,954 -->
00:30:17,204
Miriam: so we, we had,
we had things to share.
627
00:30:17,294 -->
00:30:17,564
Brad: Yep
628
00:30:17,574 -->
00:30:21,724
Miriam: and I, you know, it was important
that I listen to them about what is
629
00:30:21,724 -->
00:30:25,554
the tool that they need and how does
their process work and all these things.
630
00:30:25,654 -->
00:30:30,324
But then I'm brought in to say
something about what is the process
631
00:30:30,324 -->
00:30:34,684
of building a website and how do
we, how do we work through stages of
632
00:30:34,704 -->
00:30:36,764
design and all that sort of thing.
633
00:30:37,482 -->
00:30:37,862
Brad: Yeah
634
00:30:37,884 -->
00:30:41,834
Miriam: so in some ways I am,
again, facilitating the process
635
00:30:42,232 -->
00:30:46,502
I mean, I've always seen my
specialty as collaborative
636
00:30:46,532 -->
00:30:49,642
creativity collaborative making.
637
00:30:50,392 -->
00:30:51,852
That's the specialty I bring.
638
00:30:51,862 -->
00:30:53,402
So I bring that to theater.
639
00:30:53,422 -->
00:30:54,732
I bring that to my band.
640
00:30:55,292 -->
00:30:57,222
I bring that into the prisons.
641
00:30:57,292 -->
00:30:59,692
I bring that to web development.
642
00:31:00,374 -->
00:31:05,774
I'm here to talk about how we all together
get to something that we're all proud of
643
00:31:05,974 -->
00:31:06,494
Brad: It's beautiful.
644
00:31:06,614 -->
00:31:07,374
That's beautiful.
645
00:31:07,614 -->
00:31:11,824
was that always apparent, or do
you feel like you've just had a
646
00:31:11,834 -->
00:31:16,744
trajectory across so many different
creative, like, and outlets that
647
00:31:16,744 -->
00:31:21,035
you're just like, "Oh, okay, that's,
clearly a thing I gravitate towards"?
648
00:31:21,055 -->
00:31:24,765
Or, or has that been, like,
apparent from, like, early on?
649
00:31:25,670 -->
00:31:28,560
Miriam: I th- I think it became
pretty apparent pretty early on.
650
00:31:28,560 -->
00:31:31,630
I mean, I think it's the only
reason I ended up… Like, I
651
00:31:31,630 -->
00:31:33,350
wouldn't be, I wouldn't be here,
652
00:31:33,992 -->
00:31:34,442
Brad: Yeah.
653
00:31:34,890 -->
00:31:36,770
Miriam: if, if it wasn't for that.
654
00:31:36,810 -->
00:31:42,430
Like, I had no, I had no interest
in tech sort of as a broad category
655
00:31:42,560 -->
00:31:49,100
or in, yeah, in web development
sort of as this thing to go do.
656
00:31:49,190 -->
00:31:52,800
I just needed some websites,
and then I found that CSS
657
00:31:52,830 -->
00:31:55,310
was a weird performance art.
658
00:31:55,830 -->
00:32:02,525
And I was like, "Okay, this is
interesting," and collaborating on design
659
00:32:02,535 -->
00:32:04,545
was similar to collaborating on theater.
660
00:32:05,165 -->
00:32:09,645
And it all just sort of… It, it
just felt like a continuation of the
661
00:32:09,645 -->
00:32:13,295
same things, but in a way that people
would actually pay me money for.
662
00:32:13,495 -->
00:32:13,965
Brad: That's it.
663
00:32:14,015 -->
00:32:14,245
And
664
00:32:14,295 -->
00:32:17,935
and there, and there's a reason
why this field is littered with so
665
00:32:17,965 -->
00:32:20,365
many musicians and people that were
666
00:32:20,549 -->
00:32:21,149
Miriam: Yeah
667
00:32:22,245 -->
00:32:23,315
Brad: in bands or
668
00:32:23,640 -->
00:32:23,890
Miriam: I,
669
00:32:24,138 -->
00:32:24,578
Brad: doing
670
00:32:24,670 -->
00:32:25,080
Miriam: some…
671
00:32:25,318 -->
00:32:25,658
Brad: words.
672
00:32:25,708 -->
00:32:26,098
Yeah
673
00:32:26,690 -->
00:32:28,300
Miriam: I don't remember
what conference it was.
674
00:32:28,300 -->
00:32:29,360
It was years ago.
675
00:32:29,410 -->
00:32:34,180
There was some front-end conference
and somebody on stage asked who
676
00:32:34,190 -->
00:32:37,170
had a computer science degree,
and like four hands went up.
677
00:32:37,970 -->
00:32:40,710
And then they asked who has a music
degree, and it was half the room.
678
00:32:40,910 -->
00:32:43,080
And I was like, yeah, yeah.
679
00:32:43,130 -->
00:32:43,480
Okay.
680
00:32:43,490 -->
00:32:48,540
Something about, you know, aesthetic
math, I think, or something.
681
00:32:49,230 -->
00:32:49,570
Yeah.
682
00:32:49,642 -->
00:32:50,722
Brad: That's so, that's amazing.
683
00:32:50,722 -->
00:32:56,182
A- what's, what's crazy is that you've
gone down the rabbit hole all the way
684
00:32:56,182 -->
00:33:03,162
like to the basement of artistic math,
like, like at like the CSS spec level,
685
00:33:03,162 -->
00:33:07,972
and now you're collaborating with
people from across the world, people
686
00:33:07,972 -->
00:33:10,282
that are like sweating the details of
687
00:33:10,628 -->
00:33:11,128
Miriam: Yeah
688
00:33:11,312 -->
00:33:16,772
Brad: le- a level of, of kind of like
care and rigor and minutiae, and there's
689
00:33:16,772 -->
00:33:22,272
like a lot of-- Surely there's like a lot
of just hard of dynamics and, and things
690
00:33:22,272 -->
00:33:24,562
that you need to take into consideration.
691
00:33:24,582 -->
00:33:28,832
So do, could you talk a bit
about applying your creative
692
00:33:28,832 -->
00:33:31,162
facilitation to that process?
693
00:33:31,334 -->
00:33:32,484
'
Miriam: Yeah, yeah, weird.
694
00:33:32,484 -->
00:33:34,414
I like, I like diving into things.
695
00:33:34,494 -->
00:33:36,234
I guess it's my hyperfocus.
696
00:33:36,754 -->
00:33:39,824
yeah, I mean, it was a similar sort
of thing to, like, when I first
697
00:33:39,824 -->
00:33:42,844
joined the working group feeling
similar to when I first worked
698
00:33:42,844 -->
00:33:44,374
for Mozilla or something, right?
699
00:33:44,454 -->
00:33:48,422
I'm like, "This group, their attention
to detail and their skill here is
700
00:33:48,422 -->
00:33:50,742
so much farther than, than mine.
701
00:33:50,762 -->
00:33:55,222
I don't understand why they would want
me in the room." And then I realized
702
00:33:55,242 -->
00:33:59,062
that there were only four of us in the
room who build websites professionally,
703
00:33:59,152 -->
00:34:04,162
and I was like, "Oh, right, they
need the four of us to talk about
704
00:34:04,672 -->
00:34:08,532
what is the actual experience here of
building a website professionally."
705
00:34:09,098 -->
00:34:09,468
Brad: Yeah
706
00:34:09,642 -->
00:34:12,642
Miriam: and so that's, that's
part of what I have to bring.
707
00:34:12,892 -->
00:34:16,642
I mean, the other thing I found is,
like, as soon as I was working on sort
708
00:34:16,642 -->
00:34:22,582
of big prominent specs, the majority of
the job was just can I get Google and
709
00:34:22,632 -->
00:34:25,782
Apple and Mozilla to agree on something?
710
00:34:25,802 -->
00:34:29,172
And so it's the same sort of, like,
design process of getting different
711
00:34:29,172 -->
00:34:34,582
stakeholders, finding out what their
concerns are seeing if I can build a
712
00:34:34,602 -->
00:34:41,722
design for a CSS feature that meets the
criteria and everybody can agree on it.
713
00:34:41,732 -->
00:34:45,232
So it felt, it felt very
much like the same thing.
714
00:34:45,252 -->
00:34:52,782
I'm just working with spec text and the
shape of an API instead of CSS and the
715
00:34:52,782 -->
00:34:59,182
design of a layout or people and space
and, and building a theater production.
716
00:34:59,342 -->
00:35:00,302
It's all sort of
717
00:35:00,956 -->
00:35:01,406
Brad: Yeah
718
00:35:02,032 -->
00:35:06,022
Miriam: getting everybody's input and
then trying to sort of edit it together
719
00:35:06,022 -->
00:35:10,120
and facilitate, how do we solve all
these problems, which I find fascinating.
720
00:35:10,130 -->
00:35:12,190
How do we, how do we
solve all these problems?
721
00:35:12,230 -->
00:35:14,560
And it always means a
lot of trade-offs and,
722
00:35:15,112 -->
00:35:15,492
Brad: Yeah.
723
00:35:16,040 -->
00:35:18,970
Miriam: But you learn really interesting
things from the, the different
724
00:35:18,970 -->
00:35:22,460
concerns different people are bringing
and yeah, it's fascinating being
725
00:35:22,460 -->
00:35:27,340
in a room of browser engineers who,
uh… I mean, the CSS working group
726
00:35:27,550 -->
00:35:30,640
I find just the most fascinating.
727
00:35:30,650 -->
00:35:35,280
And, I mean, there's politics and
there's, there's fights and it's not
728
00:35:35,280 -->
00:35:38,020
like a, a perfect process or something.
729
00:35:38,020 -->
00:35:43,420
But what I find really interesting about
it always is that these are extremely
730
00:35:43,420 -->
00:35:47,170
technical people sitting in a room
discussing what's gonna look good.
731
00:35:47,320 -->
00:35:55,050
Like half of them are like typography
nerds on the side or something, right?
732
00:35:55,478 -->
00:35:55,668
Brad: Yep
733
00:35:55,760 -->
00:35:59,680
Miriam: have some-- They
have this engineering, this
734
00:35:59,680 -->
00:36:01,340
deep engineering background.
735
00:36:01,400 -->
00:36:09,570
They know the inside of WebKit or Chromium
or Gecko backwards and forwards, and
736
00:36:09,580 -->
00:36:14,400
they're sitting in a room discussing
what text wrap pretty should mean.
737
00:36:15,150 -->
00:36:17,980
Like what, what is pretty text wrapping?
738
00:36:18,130 -->
00:36:18,850
I, I love it.
739
00:36:18,990 -->
00:36:19,450
I love it
740
00:36:20,016 -->
00:36:20,706
Brad: That's amazing.
741
00:36:20,786 -->
00:36:21,486
It's amazing.
742
00:36:21,506 -->
00:36:26,256
It's, it, it-- And, and that is, that
is like the, the beauty of that fusion
743
00:36:26,256 -->
00:36:30,246
between like technology, aesthetics, like
744
00:36:30,372 -->
00:36:30,712
Miriam: Yeah
745
00:36:30,912 -->
00:36:36,302
Brad: scaling that, making that like
every time that that little declaration
746
00:36:36,302 -->
00:36:39,602
gets used, it freaking looks good.
747
00:36:39,882 -->
00:36:40,422
And like,
748
00:36:40,612 -->
00:36:43,782
I just get to drop it in,
and then my shit looks good.
749
00:36:43,792 -->
00:36:47,732
And you're like, oh, you're,
you're sweating these details
750
00:36:47,732 -->
00:36:48,782
so that people can just
751
00:36:48,782 -->
00:36:50,922
Miriam: Yeah.
752
00:36:50,922 -->
00:36:51,252
Yeah
753
00:36:51,332 -->
00:36:55,782
Brad: a sudden typography sucks
less on the web across every
754
00:36:55,782 -->
00:36:57,762
website and every app like on
755
00:36:57,782 -->
00:36:58,792
the, like the planet?
756
00:36:59,272 -->
00:37:01,082
like sign me up.
757
00:37:01,152 -->
00:37:05,072
And like, and, and what's fascinating
and like the story you're telling about
758
00:37:05,072 -->
00:37:10,262
like your own kind of multifaceted
creative self, each one of those people
759
00:37:10,262 -->
00:37:13,542
that you're working with, like you're
saying, are like these typography
760
00:37:13,542 -->
00:37:17,422
nerds on the side, or they're coming
from their own sort of like pulling
761
00:37:17,422 -->
00:37:19,862
from their own world experience and
762
00:37:19,982 -->
00:37:20,352
Miriam: Yeah
763
00:37:20,472 -->
00:37:23,882
Brad: kind of come together and
you're, you're finding that common
764
00:37:23,882 -->
00:37:25,232
ground and like making it happen.
765
00:37:25,242 -->
00:37:27,212
It's, it's, it's-- That's beautiful.
766
00:37:27,232 -->
00:37:29,912
It's, it's, it's completely beautiful.
767
00:37:29,952 -->
00:37:34,122
And I, I think that one of the, the
things that's so beautiful about that
768
00:37:34,182 -->
00:37:41,672
is that there has to be, almost by
definition, this multidisciplinary of
769
00:37:42,192 -->
00:37:42,482
Miriam: Yeah.
770
00:37:42,722 -->
00:37:44,092
Brad: and perspective to it.
771
00:37:44,222 -->
00:37:44,532
Miriam: Yeah
772
00:37:44,892 -->
00:37:48,562
Brad: ha- it can't happen with just
somebody who's like coming from like
773
00:37:48,562 -->
00:37:54,593
a computer science degree, because of
what that code is doing, need to all
774
00:37:54,593 -->
00:38:00,204
of a sudden pull from the thousands of
years of, of written and, and everything,
775
00:38:00,494 -->
00:38:02,404
words and characters and shapes
776
00:38:02,404 -->
00:38:03,784
and shit like that.
777
00:38:03,784 -->
00:38:04,914
It's so freaking beautiful.
778
00:38:04,964 -->
00:38:05,944
Ah, amazing.
779
00:38:06,150 -->
00:38:06,740
Miriam: it's wild.
780
00:38:06,770 -->
00:38:13,170
And I mean, I think it's like, I sometimes
am like, "What, what the fuck am I doing
781
00:38:13,170 -->
00:38:15,590
here?" Just in, in web design in general.
782
00:38:15,620 -->
00:38:19,318
Like I, I never-- It
feels accidental, right?
783
00:38:19,338 -->
00:38:25,608
It feels like this was not part of
the plan, and I'm not convinced that
784
00:38:25,628 -->
00:38:28,088
tech is an in-industry that I like.
785
00:38:28,797 -->
00:38:32,297
I feel a little bit like when I got into
web development, it wasn't part of tech.
786
00:38:32,547 -->
00:38:37,066
Like, there was a separation there
and then like tech ate web development
787
00:38:37,606 -->
00:38:42,636
and web design in a way that I don't
like and don't feel comfortable here.
788
00:38:43,156 -->
00:38:44,886
Um, and I'm like: How did I get here?
789
00:38:44,886 -->
00:38:47,517
And then I look at that and I'm
like, "Oh, well, that's very clear."
790
00:38:47,586 -->
00:38:49,046
It's very clear how I got here.
791
00:38:49,146 -->
00:38:55,617
Because it is this, uh, sort of, yeah,
problem-solving with this h- hybrid media.
792
00:38:56,066 -->
00:39:00,437
And then not just that, it's, it's
really audience interactive in a way
793
00:39:00,437 -->
00:39:05,756
that other code… A lot of code is sort
of building building interfaces, right?
794
00:39:06,066 -->
00:39:07,146
And that's one thing.
795
00:39:07,526 -->
00:39:08,036
But CSS
796
00:39:08,236 -->
00:39:09,666
is the user controls it.
797
00:39:09,726 -->
00:39:14,376
The, the, the end user has the final
say, and it's this collaboration between
798
00:39:14,386 -->
00:39:19,096
the end user and the browser that they
choose to use and the device that they're
799
00:39:19,096 -->
00:39:25,826
on and us, and it's this, it's just
this weird… It is a collaboration.
800
00:39:25,836 -->
00:39:31,696
CSS itself is a collaborative medium
which is one of the things that I think,
801
00:39:31,986 -->
00:39:36,306
like when somebody asks like, "Why
do people get frustrated with CSS?"
802
00:39:36,306 -->
00:39:37,036
I think it's that.
803
00:39:37,096 -->
00:39:38,816
I think people think that they are--
804
00:39:38,972 -->
00:39:39,322
Brad: yeah.
805
00:39:39,406 -->
00:39:41,986
Miriam: I think people think that they're
in control, and they're not in control.
806
00:39:42,432 -->
00:39:42,772
Brad: Yeah.
807
00:39:42,836 -->
00:39:46,096
Miriam: if you don't approach it as a
collaborative medium, you're gonna get
808
00:39:46,096 -->
00:39:47,246
frustrated because your collaborators
809
00:39:47,408 -->
00:39:47,698
Brad: Yep.
810
00:39:47,936 -->
00:39:48,926
Miriam: keep showing up
811
00:39:49,228 -->
00:39:49,808
Brad: Yeah.
812
00:39:49,858 -->
00:39:50,338
Yeah.
813
00:39:50,516 -->
00:39:52,686
Miriam: and they have different
opinions than you do, right?
814
00:39:52,766 -->
00:39:55,856
And that's frustrating if you
think you're a solo artist.
815
00:39:56,285 -->
00:40:01,545
but I'm here because I played with CSS
and was like, "Oh, I'm collaborating.
816
00:40:02,787 -->
00:40:03,637
That's fun.
817
00:40:04,361 -->
00:40:04,741
Brad: Yeah
818
00:40:05,037 -->
00:40:06,777
Miriam: let's, let's explore that."
819
00:40:07,179 -->
00:40:11,429
Brad: I think that that's really
beautifully put because I think that that
820
00:40:12,369 -->
00:40:17,170
are the, the triple equal signs and, like,
the true and the false and, like, this,
821
00:40:17,180 -->
00:40:22,900
you know, this, this programming that
is, like, always going to predictably
822
00:40:22,940 -->
00:40:26,960
spit out the right outcome and, and
it's like, I can appreciate that, and
823
00:40:26,960 -->
00:40:29,550
I appreciate the appreciation of that.
824
00:40:29,560 -->
00:40:33,490
Like, people who really are like, "Oh,
this is good," and that, that there's
825
00:40:33,500 -->
00:40:37,020
something very satisfying in, like,
writing a, a program or a loop or
826
00:40:37,020 -->
00:40:37,380
whatever.
827
00:40:37,380 -->
00:40:39,590
And, Oh, look at that."
I, I'll never forget the
828
00:40:39,590 -->
00:40:43,770
first time I got that to show up where
it's like, like, loop through all of my,
829
00:40:43,770 -->
00:40:47,960
like, blog posts in, like, a WordPress
thing, and it's like, "Oh, I did it."
830
00:40:47,960 -->
00:40:48,350
It-- You know?
831
00:40:48,390 -->
00:40:51,880
Like, that's really fun, but, but
I love how you're drawing that
832
00:40:51,880 -->
00:40:57,910
distinction between, like, here is
this thing that just on what device
833
00:40:57,910 -->
00:41:01,230
you're looking at, depending on what
the user's preferences are, depending
834
00:41:01,230 -->
00:41:08,080
on, like, a whole lot of factors, yeah,
you don't control this experience.
835
00:41:08,370 -->
00:41:10,060
This is not an eight and a half by
836
00:41:10,070 -->
00:41:11,310
eleven piece of paper
837
00:41:11,800 -->
00:41:14,290
that this is always
going to look this way.
838
00:41:14,290 -->
00:41:18,900
So, so just by its just inherent
nature, John Allsopp, Dao
839
00:41:18,900 -->
00:41:20,030
of Web Design, all that good
840
00:41:20,178 -->
00:41:20,588
Miriam: Yeah
841
00:41:20,620 -->
00:41:24,690
Brad: It's just, it's just like here
is this thing that is innately fuzzy,
842
00:41:25,100 -->
00:41:31,030
and if you are already comfortable
in that kind of fuzzy, like rejecting
843
00:41:31,030 -->
00:41:35,550
that, that kind of this is either true
or false, but you just are able to
844
00:41:35,560 -->
00:41:40,000
hang out in that kind of fuzzy middle
ground there, you're gonna have a
845
00:41:40,180 -->
00:41:40,660
Miriam: Right
846
00:41:40,960 -->
00:41:41,930
Brad: with CSS.
847
00:41:41,930 -->
00:41:45,291
But if you like that, then
yeah, you're probably gonna
848
00:41:45,315 -->
00:41:45,755
Miriam: Yeah.
849
00:41:45,963 -->
00:41:49,640
can I pull it back to the, to
the topic in, in the ether?
850
00:41:50,320 -->
00:41:58,070
Which is to me… So I keep hearing
developers say, " I'm output oriented.
851
00:41:58,250 -->
00:41:59,890
I care about the results.
852
00:41:59,890 -->
00:42:06,070
I'm results oriented, not process
oriented." Um, and using that as
853
00:42:06,070 -->
00:42:11,180
an explanation for why, like, it
doesn't matter if I use AI or not,
854
00:42:11,920 -->
00:42:12,300
Brad: Yeah
855
00:42:12,610 -->
00:42:15,570
Miriam: because I'm, I'm results oriented.
856
00:42:16,270 -->
00:42:20,330
And I look at that and I say, "You
care about different results than
857
00:42:20,330 -->
00:42:26,970
I do." You have to narrow down your
definition of results to think that
858
00:42:27,060 -->
00:42:31,820
you can ignore process, and that
process doesn't impact results.
859
00:42:32,260 -->
00:42:36,300
I'm not process oriented just
because like, I have some
860
00:42:36,300 -->
00:42:40,350
process that I think is funny or,
861
00:42:40,446 -->
00:42:40,856
Brad: Yeah
862
00:42:41,540 -->
00:42:42,690
Miriam: fun to do.
863
00:42:43,120 -->
00:42:49,270
I'm process-- I focus on process because
I think it changes the results we get.
864
00:42:49,510 -->
00:42:54,230
And to me, that collaborative nature
of CSS is part of that, right?
865
00:42:54,270 -->
00:42:57,990
Like, it's that, like, I
don't control the results.
866
00:42:58,330 -->
00:43:04,530
I control h- I can, I, I am part of
a system where results are determined
867
00:43:04,970 -->
00:43:07,750
through this process that's collaborative.
868
00:43:08,250 -->
00:43:13,120
And so by focusing on the process,
we, we all together get better
869
00:43:13,120 -->
00:43:15,560
results, and that's important.
870
00:43:16,146 -->
00:43:16,396
Brad: Mm-hmm.
871
00:43:16,660 -->
00:43:21,590
Miriam: and so I can't just go like,
"Oh, the process doesn't matter. I'm
872
00:43:21,590 -->
00:43:25,860
results oriented," because that means
that I only care about the results
873
00:43:25,880 -->
00:43:29,250
I see in my browser on my machine.
874
00:43:29,310 -->
00:43:33,740
Like, it's very works on my machine
to call yourself results oriented.
875
00:43:33,750 -->
00:43:34,980
That's my hot take.
876
00:43:35,620 -->
00:43:36,000
Brad: Yeah.
877
00:43:36,200 -->
00:43:39,910
I, I, I think that that's, I think that
that's very good 'cause, like, what
878
00:43:39,920 -->
00:43:45,380
they're describing there is this th- this
kind of a, a walling off or, or putting up
879
00:43:45,554 -->
00:43:45,914
Miriam: Yeah.
880
00:43:46,300 -->
00:43:51,201
Brad: around being able to a
different perspective, right?
881
00:43:51,231 -->
00:43:51,521
And,
882
00:43:51,531 -->
00:43:55,641
and it's that, whether we're talking
about AI, which, which let's, let's
883
00:43:55,641 -->
00:43:59,751
do that or throughout our careers, I'm
sure, like, we've all kind of worked with
884
00:43:59,771 -->
00:44:01,561
people that are just, like, adamant about
885
00:44:01,581 -->
00:44:05,081
things, and you can kind of be
like, "Hey," like, "here's this
886
00:44:05,503 -->
00:44:06,233
Miriam: trade-offs.
887
00:44:06,433 -->
00:44:06,763
Brad: Right.
888
00:44:06,793 -->
00:44:07,093
Right.
889
00:44:07,133 -->
00:44:10,883
Everybody's coming to, like, as
you've been, I feel like very deftly
890
00:44:10,893 -->
00:44:14,313
describing, it's like everybody's coming
with their own experience, with their
891
00:44:14,343 -->
00:44:19,443
own expertise, and good creative
collaboration is when those different
892
00:44:19,633 -->
00:44:26,123
experiences and perspectives and wants and
needs and gotchas and the rest of it all
893
00:44:26,123 -->
00:44:28,713
get thrown in the stew together, and you
894
00:44:28,721 -->
00:44:28,971
Miriam: Right.
895
00:44:29,193 -->
00:44:30,983
Brad: hash through it,
and you, and you, and
896
00:44:31,041 -->
00:44:31,401
Miriam: Yeah
897
00:44:31,453 -->
00:44:35,263
Brad: the work and you hash through it,
and then you end up with a result that you
898
00:44:35,263 -->
00:44:37,723
actually can collectively feel proud of.
899
00:44:38,225 -->
00:44:38,695
Miriam: Right
900
00:44:39,183 -->
00:44:44,583
Brad: it's when there's somebody,
and usually it's like just some dude
901
00:44:44,653 -->
00:44:51,203
on the team that's just like, " I
hear what you're saying, but like I
902
00:44:51,403 -->
00:44:51,843
Miriam: Right
903
00:44:51,917 -->
00:44:54,297
Brad: liked this," and like, "I'm
904
00:44:54,433 -->
00:44:55,743
Miriam: I know the answer, yeah.
905
00:44:55,927 -->
00:44:56,277
Brad: Right.
906
00:44:56,437 -->
00:44:56,797
Right.
907
00:44:56,937 -->
00:44:57,157
Right.
908
00:44:57,217 -->
00:44:57,427
"And
909
00:44:57,443 -->
00:44:57,673
Miriam: Yeah
910
00:44:58,574 -->
00:45:01,584
Brad: you all would just see it my
way, then, then this would all go
911
00:45:01,594 -->
00:45:05,124
better." And, and of course, it never
goes better whenever you just have
912
00:45:05,584 -->
00:45:09,714
these people just kind of, yeah, like
building up a wall around them and their
913
00:45:09,764 -->
00:45:10,844
their preferences.
914
00:45:10,874 -->
00:45:16,564
And it, and so it's, it really is in
that willingness and ability to kind
915
00:45:16,564 -->
00:45:22,504
of come together and participate in a
process that ends up with results that
916
00:45:22,704 -->
00:45:27,214
just a single person feels good about
and it's like, "Oh yeah, my, my idea won.
917
00:45:27,234 -->
00:45:29,154
Everybody else was like left in the dust."
918
00:45:29,428 -->
00:45:29,584
Miriam: Okay.
919
00:45:29,652 -->
00:45:33,442
Brad: it, that's the kind of shittiness
that it's like we want to get away from.
920
00:45:33,802 -->
00:45:36,942
The best projects I've been a part of
are the ones where people are like,
921
00:45:37,142 -->
00:45:40,052
everyone sees themselves in the result.
922
00:45:40,352 -->
00:45:41,062
Everyone
923
00:45:41,226 -->
00:45:41,506
Miriam: Yeah.
924
00:45:41,862 -->
00:45:43,562
Brad: along for the ride and
925
00:45:43,846 -->
00:45:44,156
Miriam: Yep.
926
00:45:44,422 -->
00:45:49,672
Brad: they left behind, the compromises
they made in order to like m-meet the
927
00:45:49,672 -->
00:45:55,034
greater good, and that you all come
out w-- and go and, this exists now."
928
00:45:55,064 -->
00:45:59,064
And like, yeah, sure, was it the
exact perfect thing I had in my head?
929
00:45:59,074 -->
00:45:59,574
No.
930
00:46:00,304 -->
00:46:03,672
But like we all got there, and
we all got there together like…
931
00:46:03,743 -->
00:46:06,363
Miriam: would the perfect thing
in your head, would it, would it
932
00:46:06,373 -->
00:46:08,283
have still been perfect in reality?
933
00:46:08,283 -->
00:46:09,073
I doubt it.
934
00:46:09,683 -->
00:46:10,053
Brad: Yeah.
935
00:46:10,463 -->
00:46:10,733
Bye
936
00:46:11,113 -->
00:46:15,583
Miriam: I think that's always a,
like we, we get attached to something
937
00:46:16,303 -->
00:46:18,173
in our heads, but it's not real.
938
00:46:18,343 -->
00:46:19,163
It's not real.
939
00:46:19,633 -->
00:46:23,353
And so we have to have… And
I think, you know, I'm thinking
940
00:46:23,353 -->
00:46:24,913
about lowercase process.
941
00:46:24,953 -->
00:46:28,243
Like, you know, like we do
lowercase agile development.
942
00:46:28,453 -->
00:46:33,863
Agile in that we try to be agile
about it not in that like we follow
943
00:46:33,863 -->
00:46:39,053
some set of rules that are describing
what that process should look like.
944
00:46:39,753 -->
00:46:40,283
I don't know.
945
00:46:40,313 -->
00:46:45,323
I, I find, I find rigid
processes interesting to study
946
00:46:45,353 -->
00:46:47,093
and uninteresting to follow.
947
00:46:47,580 -->
00:46:51,850
like I think a lot of them have really
good ideas and then when it becomes
948
00:46:51,850 -->
00:46:56,070
just a set of rules, eh, sometimes
they work, sometimes they don't.
949
00:46:56,740 -->
00:47:00,810
But there's often like a mindset
that's worth taking away or something.
950
00:47:01,296 -->
00:47:05,266
I remind our team sometimes that we're
agile not because it avoids mistakes,
951
00:47:05,376 -->
00:47:06,626
but because it responds to them.
952
00:47:07,406 -->
00:47:11,326
Like we don't have to feel like, "Oh,
how did we, how did we go down the
953
00:47:11,326 -->
00:47:16,026
wrong path?" It's more like, "No, no,
this is, that was part of the plan." We
954
00:47:16,026 -->
00:47:19,886
planned for going down the wrong path
sometimes and being able to turn around.
955
00:47:20,086 -->
00:47:20,846
That's the key
956
00:47:21,506 -->
00:47:21,876
Brad: Yeah.
957
00:47:21,976 -->
00:47:26,126
And that, and that's part of that
facilitation that's sometimes very
958
00:47:26,546 -->
00:47:33,096
challenging for people who, again,
aren't used to living in that fuzziness
959
00:47:33,438 -->
00:47:33,848
Miriam: Right
960
00:47:33,926 -->
00:47:36,496
Brad: like, they want the
certitude especially… Yeah,
961
00:47:36,496 -->
00:47:39,896
it's like we're ponying up a
bunch of cash to do this thing.
962
00:47:40,176 -->
00:47:40,646
We had a
963
00:47:40,986 -->
00:47:41,456
Miriam: yeah
964
00:47:41,906 -->
00:47:43,036
Brad: We're down the road.
965
00:47:43,086 -->
00:47:44,796
What do you mean the plan is changing?
966
00:47:44,796 -->
00:47:45,816
Like, oh shit, we're, like,
967
00:47:45,976 -->
00:47:46,146
Miriam: Yeah,
968
00:47:46,146 -->
00:47:46,516
yeah.
969
00:47:46,916 -->
00:47:50,836
Brad: It, it takes people like you
to be able to be like, "Hey, it's,
970
00:47:51,006 -->
00:47:51,196
Miriam: It takes people like
you to be able to be like-
971
00:47:51,956 -->
00:47:52,996
Brad: actually okay."
972
00:47:53,538 -->
00:47:54,798
Miriam: Does this feel relatable?
973
00:47:54,798 -->
00:47:59,238
I always feel like there's a, there's
a point, I don't know, it's 65 to
974
00:47:59,248 -->
00:48:05,528
75% of the way into any project, any
project, where you've put in more
975
00:48:05,528 -->
00:48:07,468
work than you're seeing results.
976
00:48:08,208 -->
00:48:10,718
And it happens every single project.
977
00:48:10,808 -->
00:48:12,228
Like, there's just no way around it.
978
00:48:12,268 -->
00:48:19,918
There's no way to move results earlier,
'cause at some point you have to be
979
00:48:19,918 -->
00:48:26,558
taking some risks and getting out
over your skis, and you have to push
980
00:48:26,558 -->
00:48:31,038
through that point to get to the end
of a project and find out if it worked.
981
00:48:31,668 -->
00:48:36,248
Or to… You have to get into that
point of like, "Oh, shit, this
982
00:48:36,248 -->
00:48:41,898
might not work," to step back, take
a look at it, and be like, "Okay,
983
00:48:41,898 -->
00:48:43,888
what's, what's the missing pieces?
984
00:48:43,898 -->
00:48:44,768
How do we fix it?
985
00:48:44,788 -->
00:48:47,428
How do we, how do we get back?"
And there's sort of a like,
986
00:48:47,798 -->
00:48:52,088
until you get there, you're not
gonna know what those fixes are.
987
00:48:52,088 -->
00:48:56,408
So, you have to get yourself to that
point where it's, where you've put in too
988
00:48:56,408 -->
00:48:58,178
much work and you're seeing no results.
989
00:48:58,478 -->
00:49:02,638
And, and that's when you can start to
understand the, the thing you're making.
990
00:49:02,838 -->
00:49:08,128
Brad: I think that you're dead on
even with like your like 65% 75%.
991
00:49:08,158 -->
00:49:11,632
I think that those are accurate,
cause, 'cause like the first 10
992
00:49:11,632 -->
00:49:14,572
to 15% is just getting going.
993
00:49:14,592 -->
00:49:15,102
And like I
994
00:49:15,164 -->
00:49:15,704
Miriam: Yeah
995
00:49:16,112 -->
00:49:18,462
Brad: there's something especially
whenever you're working with other
996
00:49:18,462 -->
00:49:23,862
people or you have like new collaborators
or something, it takes a long time to
997
00:49:23,862 -->
00:49:27,612
get to know one another, to get into
groove with one another, to like even
998
00:49:27,612 -->
00:49:31,702
just kind of like collectively paint
the picture going, "Here's where we're
999
00:49:31,712 -->
00:49:39,102
going." that's the-- a full 10 to 15,
maybe even 20% of, of the project.
1000
00:49:39,512 -->
00:49:43,852
And then there's those kinda like
rough kind of first steps where you s-
1001
00:49:43,982 -->
00:49:49,142
are taking your first collective steps
together, that feels a little uneasy,
1002
00:49:49,142 -->
00:49:52,632
but at the same time you give yourself
quite a bit of grace because you're like,
1003
00:49:52,632 -->
00:49:57,022
"Well, we're just getting started." And
then you end up kinda getting into like
1004
00:49:57,022 -->
00:50:00,782
a, "Oh, okay," like this kinda feels like,
like a bit of like a rhythm or whatever.
1005
00:50:01,162 -->
00:50:03,272
And then there's like some-- this, this
1006
00:50:03,614 -->
00:50:04,804
Miriam: There's that dip.
1007
00:50:05,442 -->
00:50:09,832
Brad: there's that dip and then, and then
you kind of are like, "Yeah, something
1008
00:50:09,832 -->
00:50:13,802
needs that…" Like w- you know, you're
looking at the, the timeline or the…
1009
00:50:13,902 -->
00:50:18,882
It's like can't keep going at this
pace, so we gotta like, fire, activate
1010
00:50:18,994 -->
00:50:19,354
Miriam: Yeah.
1011
00:50:19,782 -->
00:50:21,762
Brad: or the, or turbocharge
this or whatever.
1012
00:50:21,762 -->
00:50:27,162
And that's, that's whenever you end up
kinda And it, and it's at that place that
1013
00:50:27,282 -->
00:50:31,802
that you're like you find yourself,
yeah, looking over a very scary ledge
1014
00:50:32,114 -->
00:50:32,714
Miriam: Yeah.
1015
00:50:32,714 -->
00:50:37,164
Like, this, this might fail, but maybe
we finally… Like, maybe we finally have
1016
00:50:37,164 -->
00:50:38,644
enough to understand what we're doing.
1017
00:50:39,064 -->
00:50:44,554
Like, like we've built enough to, to
now get a big picture and understand it
1018
00:50:44,754 -->
00:50:49,594
and, and know what needs to change to
get the rest of the way or something.
1019
00:50:50,194 -->
00:50:53,144
It's-- And I think that's always
the hardest part in terms of
1020
00:50:53,144 -->
00:50:54,634
facilitating a collaboration.
1021
00:50:54,644 -->
00:50:55,564
That's always the point.
1022
00:50:55,764 -->
00:50:59,564
And I'll try to remind a team at the
start of a project, like, "We're gonna
1023
00:50:59,564 -->
00:51:02,444
get to this 75% mark and it's gonna suck.
1024
00:51:02,994 -->
00:51:06,724
You are gonna feel depressed a
week before we open the show.
1025
00:51:07,464 -->
00:51:10,504
That's when you're gonna be depressed,
and then it's gonna come together.
1026
00:51:10,504 -->
00:51:14,234
We're gonna figure out how to make it
come together, 'cause that's what we do.
1027
00:51:14,414 -->
00:51:16,254
We figure out how to
make it come together.
1028
00:51:16,982 -->
00:51:16,992
Brad: Mm-hmm.
1029
00:51:17,074 -->
00:51:18,854
Miriam: we're not stuck at that point.
1030
00:51:19,524 -->
00:51:19,864
Brad: Yeah.
1031
00:51:20,024 -->
00:51:21,994
Miriam: Remember that we're
not stuck at that point."
1032
00:51:22,194 -->
00:51:25,114
Brad: Well, but, but, but that
i- that is where the, you know,
1033
00:51:25,294 -->
00:51:27,014
fear and doubt and all of,
1034
00:51:27,074 -->
00:51:32,115
like, that stuff can come in and, like,
we've seen it happen where on who the
1035
00:51:32,175 -->
00:51:35,955
people involved are, like, you know, some
stakeholders, especially the people that
1036
00:51:35,995 -->
00:51:40,969
are controlling the purse strings, they
have a lower tolerance for that fuzziness
1037
00:51:41,009 -->
00:51:43,309
or for that, like, risk
or for that whatever.
1038
00:51:43,370 -->
00:51:48,369
They're like, "We need this, know,
to, to work." And so you can get
1039
00:51:48,409 -->
00:51:52,269
to that point where at that, like,
place and they can start, like,
1040
00:51:52,349 -->
00:51:54,289
kinda having those conversations.
1041
00:51:54,329 -->
00:51:58,110
That's that's where it's like you
kinda need to, like, jump in front and
1042
00:51:58,169 -->
00:51:59,930
be like, "Wait!" You know, like, y-
1043
00:52:00,069 -->
00:52:00,729
that's, that's where
1044
00:52:00,738 -->
00:52:01,398
Miriam: Yeah yeah,
1045
00:52:01,569 -->
00:52:01,729
Brad: we're
1046
00:52:02,148 -->
00:52:04,828
Miriam: L- let us… Yeah, exactly.
1047
00:52:05,028 -->
00:52:05,438
Yeah.
1048
00:52:05,548 -->
00:52:07,748
Let us, let us solve the problem
1049
00:52:08,214 -->
00:52:08,714
Brad: Yeah.
1050
00:52:08,794 -->
00:52:09,204
Yeah.
1051
00:52:09,634 -->
00:52:14,834
And that, and that's-- Man, that's
just… Creative work is, is just kind of
1052
00:52:15,074 -->
00:52:19,804
inherently unknowable until it actually
1053
00:52:20,084 -->
00:52:20,454
Miriam: Yeah.
1054
00:52:20,944 -->
00:52:21,434
Brad: Like that's,
1055
00:52:21,584 -->
00:52:21,954
Miriam: Yeah
1056
00:52:22,024 -->
00:52:23,514
Brad: it's by definition.
1057
00:52:23,524 -->
00:52:26,914
Like there's a reason why we're not
like, it's like, "Cool, we're just
1058
00:52:26,914 -->
00:52:29,584
going to go through this specific
process and end up with these
1059
00:52:29,584 -->
00:52:31,744
specific results each and every time."
1060
00:52:32,380 -->
00:52:32,740
Miriam: Right
1061
00:52:32,924 -->
00:52:35,214
Brad: not, that's not the, that's not the
1062
00:52:35,476 -->
00:52:36,696
Miriam: It's not how it works.
1063
00:52:36,866 -->
00:52:37,336
Yeah.
1064
00:52:37,574 -->
00:52:37,884
Brad: Right.
1065
00:52:38,216 -->
00:52:40,956
Miriam: Well, it's maybe-- I mean,
maybe that comes back around to the,
1066
00:52:40,956 -->
00:52:44,336
like, creativity is just looking at
something and having a perspective on it.
1067
00:52:44,572 -->
00:52:46,882
in order to have a perspective,
I need something to look at.
1068
00:52:47,442 -->
00:52:50,934
Um, Like, we can start from some
theoretical perspective about what we've
1069
00:52:50,934 -->
00:52:54,574
seen before but then we're a little bit
in the dark until we have something that
1070
00:52:54,574 -->
00:52:59,794
we can look at and be like, "Oh, it's
far enough along that I have opinions."
1071
00:52:59,944 -->
00:53:02,824
How do we, how do we
now finish shaping it?
1072
00:53:03,024 -->
00:53:07,794
Brad: So I'm gonna use that as my
bit to bring this all back into
1073
00:53:07,794 -->
00:53:10,454
the, the zeitgeist that is AI.
1074
00:53:10,658 -->
00:53:14,338
Because I think that there's actually
something-- I st- I've been starting to
1075
00:53:14,338 -->
00:53:19,816
pick at this a little bit in, in working
with these kind of creative collaborations
1076
00:53:19,826 -->
00:53:22,876
for a long time, and you just saying,
it's like, "Oh, yeah," and then, like,
1077
00:53:22,876 -->
00:53:24,376
we need to, like, look at something.
1078
00:53:25,096 -->
00:53:29,326
A lot of times, historically,
it's taken a long time to get to
1079
00:53:29,326 -->
00:53:30,756
that place where we're looking at,
1080
00:53:30,796 -->
00:53:31,566
at something.
1081
00:53:31,576 -->
00:53:37,636
And I, I wish that more places
were cool with my poorly done
1082
00:53:37,636 -->
00:53:42,246
napkin sketches and even, like,
designers just kind of like Balsamiq.
1083
00:53:42,296 -->
00:53:44,806
Remember, like, the little, like,
squiggly lines and kinda like
1084
00:53:44,806 -->
00:53:46,116
Comic Sans kinda stuff?
1085
00:53:46,116 -->
00:53:49,239
It's like, it's really only until
you're, like, pretty, like, far
1086
00:53:49,239 -->
00:53:52,659
down the line that, that like, all
of a sudden people start having
1087
00:53:52,659 -->
00:53:54,389
these, like, opinions about, about,
1088
00:53:54,389 -->
00:53:55,089
things and stuff.
1089
00:53:55,099 -->
00:54:03,949
So, what I've seen is a lot of time spent
on calls where people are just spending
1090
00:54:04,059 -->
00:54:07,779
the majority of the time trying to talk
each other out of doing the work, right?
1091
00:54:07,819 -->
00:54:09,419
The engineers usually especially.
1092
00:54:10,175 -->
00:54:10,855
" Here's why that
1093
00:54:11,119 -->
00:54:12,729
Miriam: Yeah No, that's gonna be hard.
1094
00:54:13,265 -->
00:54:13,585
Brad: Right.
1095
00:54:13,879 -->
00:54:15,409
Miriam: We shouldn't do
it 'cause that's hard.
1096
00:54:15,485 -->
00:54:15,855
Brad: right.
1097
00:54:15,985 -->
00:54:16,295
Right.
1098
00:54:16,325 -->
00:54:19,725
Or, "Well, we could do it this way, or
we could do it this way, or we could do
1099
00:54:19,725 -->
00:54:26,645
it this way." One of the things that I
have seen and I've been enjoying with
1100
00:54:26,865 -->
00:54:33,278
this new kind of, like, process having
this a-available to us is that we're
1101
00:54:33,298 -->
00:54:37,088
able to get to that thing, that part
where we're all kinda like looking
1102
00:54:37,088 -->
00:54:41,540
at something and that these people
who aren't, who historically haven't
1103
00:54:41,540 -->
00:54:43,280
been the, "Oh, I'm not creative.
1104
00:54:43,280 -->
00:54:44,610
I don't know what this is."
1105
00:54:44,808 -->
00:54:45,248
Miriam: Yeah
1106
00:54:45,320 -->
00:54:49,040
Brad: have a perspective or, like,
you, you know the, the user behaviors
1107
00:54:49,040 -->
00:54:52,080
or you know the business goals
or you know the whatever it is.
1108
00:54:52,390 -->
00:54:54,620
It's like, let's all have it.
1109
00:54:54,670 -->
00:54:57,640
Like, everybody, like, share
your perspective, and we're able
1110
00:54:57,640 -->
00:54:59,220
to, like, sorta synthesize it.
1111
00:54:59,480 -->
00:55:04,550
And instead of using our, our time on a
meeting together talking each other out
1112
00:55:04,600 -->
00:55:08,780
of doing some work, let's actually do
that work collaboratively, collectively
1113
00:55:08,780 -->
00:55:14,420
together, look at something and then go,
"Well, this all just manifested in front
1114
00:55:14,420 -->
00:55:16,220
of our eyes in like thirty seconds."
1115
00:55:16,220 -->
00:55:19,090
So we all know that that's
not, like, the finished piece.
1116
00:55:19,100 -->
00:55:20,380
So what do we like about this?
1117
00:55:20,380 -->
00:55:21,620
What do we not like about this?
1118
00:55:21,620 -->
00:55:22,410
What is this doing
1119
00:55:22,440 -->
00:55:22,920
Miriam: Yeah
1120
00:55:23,140 -->
00:55:23,920
Brad: this doing well?
1121
00:55:24,410 -->
00:55:29,910
And I've found that to be this, this
thing that I'm like, huh, as someone
1122
00:55:29,910 -->
00:55:38,986
who facilitates creative collaboration
and enjoys stuff and likes bringing
1123
00:55:39,026 -->
00:55:43,996
people from different-- with different
experiences together, I'm like,
1124
00:55:43,996 -->
00:55:46,096
here's this thing that allows this
1125
00:55:46,106 -->
00:55:50,406
process to be a bit more sort of
participatory and communal rather
1126
00:55:50,406 -->
00:55:53,676
than like, I am the design expert,
1127
00:55:53,906 -->
00:55:54,476
Miriam: Yeah, yeah
1128
00:55:55,266 -->
00:55:59,856
Brad: I will bestow my, my gifts
unto you, and you will give it the
1129
00:55:59,856 -->
00:56:03,316
green check or tell me to make the
logo bigger and I'll come back.
1130
00:56:03,718 -->
00:56:04,238
Miriam: I don't know.
1131
00:56:04,258 -->
00:56:11,229
To me, doing a design mock-up early
and showing an AI mock-up early
1132
00:56:11,609 -->
00:56:13,909
have similar collaborative problems.
1133
00:56:14,449 -->
00:56:15,769
And so I don't like either one.
1134
00:56:16,199 -->
00:56:20,289
'Cause to me, I'm like, like we will
actually our, our designers will
1135
00:56:20,289 -->
00:56:22,489
do high-fidelity stuff early on,
1136
00:56:23,217 -->
00:56:23,647
Brad: Mm-hmm.
1137
00:56:24,189 -->
00:56:25,979
Miriam: but they, we
won't show it to a client.
1138
00:56:26,169 -->
00:56:30,409
I, we refuse to show clients
anything high fidelity early on.
1139
00:56:31,009 -->
00:56:35,729
It's sort of like designers know
the process, and so they're, they're
1140
00:56:35,729 -->
00:56:37,609
thinking several levels at once.
1141
00:56:38,039 -->
00:56:43,969
But we want early in the process for
clients to answer specific questions.
1142
00:56:44,029 -->
00:56:48,019
And if we show them something
that looks done, they start
1143
00:56:48,019 -->
00:56:49,599
answering the wrong questions.
1144
00:56:49,669 -->
00:56:54,739
They're like worried about the shade of
blue, and I'm like, "We are not ready for
1145
00:56:54,739 -->
00:57:01,299
you to worry about a shade of blue." And
so we will, we will literally strip color
1146
00:57:01,379 -->
00:57:04,449
and design out of what we show clients.
1147
00:57:04,459 -->
00:57:06,799
So we'll have something beautiful,
1148
00:57:06,999 -->
00:57:07,389
Brad: Yeah.
1149
00:57:07,663 -->
00:57:09,753
Miriam: and we will show something ugly,
1150
00:57:10,479 -->
00:57:10,979
Brad: Yes
1151
00:57:11,173 -->
00:57:13,813
Miriam: we don't want
that premature sheen.
1152
00:57:14,043 -->
00:57:14,643
I think that's
1153
00:57:14,643 -->
00:57:19,713
the, the f- the phrase that comes from
some interview that I saw quoted in a,
1154
00:57:20,053 -->
00:57:24,933
computers add this, this ability
to get ahead of ourselves and
1155
00:57:24,933 -->
00:57:28,323
make it look pretty before we're
ready to answer those questions.
1156
00:57:28,743 -->
00:57:33,103
And so that's where I'm like,
I'm not s- I'm not sure, like
1157
00:57:33,103 -->
00:57:34,973
I, I want the napkin sketches.
1158
00:57:35,043 -->
00:57:41,163
I want to be have- answering napkin sketch
questions, and I want to focus on that.
1159
00:57:41,263 -->
00:57:44,113
And then I want to move to
the next set of questions.
1160
00:57:44,593 -->
00:57:49,453
And so I don't see much
advantage in skipping ahead.
1161
00:57:50,093 -->
00:57:50,573
Brad: Yeah
1162
00:57:50,645 -->
00:57:54,665
Miriam: I'm like, that just, that just
muddies now what are we talking about?
1163
00:57:55,186 -->
00:57:58,196
Brad: I wholeheartedly agree with
you there, where it's like, it's like
1164
00:57:58,196 -->
00:58:03,806
the, the time in the, in the process,
in the, in the general arc is like-
1165
00:58:03,806 -->
00:58:05,716
Yeah … having all of the conversations.
1166
00:58:05,746 -->
00:58:08,066
I, I'll, I'll give you
like a specific example.
1167
00:58:08,076 -->
00:58:13,646
So Melissa now, works at, at a private
practice a therapy practice, and
1168
00:58:13,686 -->
00:58:19,076
the owner of the practice had old
rickety website just, just totally,
1169
00:58:19,166 -->
00:58:21,276
just pretty fundamentally busted.
1170
00:58:21,310 -->
00:58:21,800
Miriam: Mm-hmm.
1171
00:58:22,166 -->
00:58:25,776
Brad: so it's like having the
first conversations where the
1172
00:58:25,976 -->
00:58:29,466
conversation's about like, "What
are your-- what do you care about?
1173
00:58:29,466 -->
00:58:32,966
What are your, what are your values?"
And like she didn't even really… I
1174
00:58:32,966 -->
00:58:36,806
kinda, you know, did the old bait and
switch where it's like, "Oh, we just
1175
00:58:36,806 -->
00:58:39,696
think that this is just a meet and
greet," but it's actually like, you
1176
00:58:39,696 -->
00:58:42,236
know, this is us just kinda digging into.
1177
00:58:42,246 -->
00:58:45,586
We don't-- not talking about the
website until like an hour into
1178
00:58:45,586 -->
00:58:47,406
the conversation at all, right?
1179
00:58:47,796 -->
00:58:50,936
And so it's just like kinda, yeah,
doing all of that like kinda rich
1180
00:58:50,976 -->
00:58:55,936
work to like kinda get things
what the hell even is the thing.
1181
00:58:56,166 -->
00:58:59,106
I whole heart- wholeheartedly
agree that it's like, yeah, you
1182
00:58:59,106 -->
00:59:01,846
don't wanna just be going, "Cool,
so we're gonna make a website?
1183
00:59:01,906 -->
00:59:02,916
All right, let's make a website.
1184
00:59:02,926 -->
00:59:06,046
How do we like that?" Like, yeah,
it's like you- there's no get- there's
1185
00:59:06,056 -->
00:59:10,366
no getting around that, like, the,
the research, the, the heart of like
1186
00:59:10,366 -->
00:59:12,596
what it is that we're even doing.
1187
00:59:12,616 -->
00:59:14,386
Are we solving the right problems?
1188
00:59:14,406 -->
00:59:17,836
Are we like looking-- Do we
have the right materials in
1189
00:59:17,836 -->
00:59:18,516
place?
1190
00:59:18,980 -->
00:59:21,800
Miriam: and I think particularly
with people less experienced with
1191
00:59:21,800 -->
00:59:25,561
the process, how do we help show
them where we are in the process?
1192
00:59:25,631 -->
00:59:29,871
How do we help them understand what
questions should be answered now, and what
1193
00:59:29,871 -->
00:59:35,011
questions on that phone call should we
just say, "That's a question for later.
1194
00:59:35,601 -->
00:59:36,301
We'll get there.
1195
00:59:36,781 -->
00:59:37,371
We'll get there.
1196
00:59:37,511 -->
00:59:38,471
Take note of it.
1197
00:59:38,801 -->
00:59:39,461
Take note of it.
1198
00:59:39,471 -->
00:59:40,541
Write it down somewhere.
1199
00:59:41,131 -->
00:59:41,351
Brad: App
1200
00:59:41,471 -->
00:59:42,321
Miriam: Come back to it.
1201
00:59:42,391 -->
00:59:43,791
We'll let you know when we get there,
1202
00:59:44,323 -->
00:59:44,913
Brad: Yep.
1203
00:59:44,981 -->
00:59:45,981
Miriam: and then we'll talk about it."
1204
00:59:46,131 -->
00:59:49,871
Brad: and I think that-- So, so all
of that is, like, rich But eventually,
1205
00:59:49,871 -->
00:59:54,641
like, you, you get to that point,
what I've seen, despite my best
1206
00:59:54,641 -->
00:59:56,331
efforts, like if it were up to me,
1207
00:59:56,371 -->
00:59:59,481
we'd be doing things
whole lot differently.
1208
00:59:59,481 -->
01:00:02,801
But, like, i-in the course of a
lot of my collaborations and stuff,
1209
01:00:03,081 -->
01:00:05,821
there's a lot of, like, round
trips, and there's, like, a lot of
1210
01:00:05,821 -->
01:00:09,211
things and, like, a lot of… You
get to this point where it's like,
1211
01:00:09,251 -->
01:00:13,328
becomes this, this kind of, um… I
always get really nervous whenever
1212
01:00:13,328 -->
01:00:17,348
designers, like, peel off, and then
I don't hear from them for a long
1213
01:00:17,910 -->
01:00:18,760
Miriam: Oh, yeah.
1214
01:00:18,900 -->
01:00:20,640
Oh, yeah, that would make me nervous.
1215
01:00:21,318 -->
01:00:22,228
Brad: what are you, what
1216
01:00:22,240 -->
01:00:23,090
Miriam: Okay.
1217
01:00:23,118 -->
01:00:23,448
Brad: there?
1218
01:00:23,468 -->
01:00:26,488
How are you doing?" And then, and
then sure enough, like they, they
1219
01:00:26,488 -->
01:00:27,648
come back with like, you know,
1220
01:00:27,648 -->
01:00:31,108
something that's just, just, just like
wildly, like, out of bounds or whatever.
1221
01:00:31,108 -->
01:00:35,758
So, so all to say is, like, I-I've
felt this pull and, like, we've seen it
1222
01:00:35,788 -->
01:00:38,818
with, like, a lot of the tooling where
it's like, okay, people are doing like
1223
01:00:38,818 -->
01:00:42,398
these, like, high fidelity mocks in
these tools, and then there's now like a
1224
01:00:42,398 -->
01:00:45,008
toggle switch that allows you to switch
1225
01:00:45,008 -->
01:00:50,688
over into developer mode and it's
like, and that, know, I-I understand
1226
01:00:50,698 -->
01:00:54,848
like the utility of it, but I've seen
like a lot of these processes and
1227
01:00:54,848 -->
01:00:58,818
tooling that has like kinda come up
that end up sort of siloing people and
1228
01:00:58,818 -->
01:01:00,728
keeping people away from one another.
1229
01:01:01,018 -->
01:01:01,238
And
1230
01:01:01,394 -->
01:01:01,864
Miriam: Yeah.
1231
01:01:02,074 -->
01:01:02,464
Yeah.
1232
01:01:02,498 -->
01:01:03,918
Brad: how d- how do we,
1233
01:01:04,054 -->
01:01:04,774
Miriam: How do we…
1234
01:01:04,778 -->
01:01:05,698
Brad: we get
1235
01:01:05,718 -->
01:01:06,358
more
1236
01:01:07,257 -->
01:01:12,717
Miriam: To me it feels like we keep,
and this is the, this is the software
1237
01:01:12,717 -->
01:01:18,695
brain that drives the entire tech
industry we run up against these very
1238
01:01:18,765 -->
01:01:25,625
sort of human organizational problems
and we go like, "I see a shortcut with
1239
01:01:25,635 -->
01:01:31,465
more software." And I just, I just,
I'm so tired of that as a perspective.
1240
01:01:31,685 -->
01:01:32,495
You know?
1241
01:01:32,525 -->
01:01:35,145
Like, I'm just like, like
fix your organization.
1242
01:01:35,155 -->
01:01:36,945
Fix the organizational structure.
1243
01:01:36,975 -->
01:01:38,405
It doesn't have to be like this.
1244
01:01:38,760 -->
01:01:42,090
we don't have to create these highly
siloed organizations and then go
1245
01:01:42,090 -->
01:01:47,140
like, "Oh, why is it so siloed? Let's
build more software on top of it." We
1246
01:01:47,140 -->
01:01:49,520
can actually fix the organizations.
1247
01:01:49,902 -->
01:01:50,532
I don't know.
1248
01:01:50,592 -->
01:01:54,432
To me it's, like it's, it's software
brain, it's capitalism brain.
1249
01:01:54,432 -->
01:01:55,102
I don't know.
1250
01:01:55,112 -->
01:01:55,672
It's like,
1251
01:01:55,736 -->
01:01:56,146
Brad: Yeah
1252
01:01:56,252 -->
01:01:58,462
Miriam: like capitalism wants us siloed.
1253
01:01:58,472 -->
01:02:00,622
That's how we're most replaceable.
1254
01:02:01,012 -->
01:02:02,712
swap somebody in, swap somebody out.
1255
01:02:02,712 -->
01:02:03,652
It doesn't matter.
1256
01:02:03,662 -->
01:02:04,582
They're just a cog.
1257
01:02:04,622 -->
01:02:06,432
They just fit, fit here.
1258
01:02:06,632 -->
01:02:07,152
I get it.
1259
01:02:07,162 -->
01:02:10,382
It's cheaper for the CEOs and
then they give themselves a raise.
1260
01:02:10,422 -->
01:02:11,302
I don't know.
1261
01:02:11,506 -->
01:02:18,706
I am just so tired of like solving
these very human problems that, yeah,
1262
01:02:18,706 -->
01:02:20,336
I mean, the problem is collaboration.
1263
01:02:20,336 -->
01:02:22,656
Let's, let's collaborate.
1264
01:02:23,019 -->
01:02:25,902
Brad: It feels like, like a
non-answer 'cause, like, I've said w-
1265
01:02:25,992 -->
01:02:31,432
just what you said and, and people
are just like, "But so anyways,
1266
01:02:31,432 -->
01:02:32,702
just, like, tell me the tool."
1267
01:02:33,306 -->
01:02:34,356
Miriam: Yeah, exactly.
1268
01:02:34,356 -->
01:02:39,096
Well, and, and, I feel specifically
with when the tool being discussed
1269
01:02:39,106 -->
01:02:42,356
is one where you have to start the
conversation by being like, "Let's
1270
01:02:42,356 -->
01:02:44,246
set aside all the ethical concerns
1271
01:02:44,494 -->
01:02:45,014
Brad: Yeah.
1272
01:02:45,026 -->
01:02:50,466
Miriam: then discuss whether it's useful."
And I'm like sorry, you lost me there at
1273
01:02:50,486 -->
01:02:52,316
setting aside all the ethical concerns."
1274
01:02:52,316 -->
01:02:54,256
I don't, I don't buy it.
1275
01:02:54,286 -->
01:02:59,366
I don't, I don't buy every single new
technology being sold as democratizing.
1276
01:02:59,896 -->
01:03:05,066
And then what we mean by democratizing is
a different set of people have power now.
1277
01:03:06,052 -->
01:03:07,902
Um, That's not democratizing.
1278
01:03:07,992 -->
01:03:10,352
Democratizing is we're all in this.
1279
01:03:10,842 -->
01:03:15,292
And you're not gonna convince me
that three large companies doing mass
1280
01:03:15,302 -->
01:03:21,672
surveillance to steal all of our data and
burn down our world to give me an answer
1281
01:03:21,692 -->
01:03:26,532
machine that gets the answer wrong half
the time, that that is democratizing
1282
01:03:26,892 -->
01:03:29,042
just because I have access to it.
1283
01:03:29,630 -->
01:03:30,010
Brad: Yeah
1284
01:03:30,152 -->
01:03:32,372
Miriam: that is a company
selling me a product.
1285
01:03:32,692 -->
01:03:36,362
That's not a neutral technology
that we can use however we want.
1286
01:03:36,412 -->
01:03:38,312
That's a product that I
1287
01:03:38,408 -->
01:03:38,428
Brad: R
1288
01:03:38,962 -->
01:03:39,822
Miriam: can use.
1289
01:03:39,822 -->
01:03:42,972
I can decide to use that product, but
it's a product, and it's being sold to me.
1290
01:03:43,353 -->
01:03:44,053
I don't know.
1291
01:03:44,203 -->
01:03:47,633
I, I have other ideas for
how to solve these problems.
1292
01:03:47,983 -->
01:03:52,523
I don't need your mass surveillance
product to be the one answer.
1293
01:03:52,848 -->
01:03:57,148
I saw an interesting interview with
a historian who was saying, "We've
1294
01:03:57,148 -->
01:03:58,818
already given up on democracy.
1295
01:03:58,848 -->
01:04:02,218
We haven't had democracy for
a little while now because
1296
01:04:02,218 -->
01:04:03,508
democracy isn't the voting.
1297
01:04:03,508 -->
01:04:04,948
Democracy is the debating.
1298
01:04:05,558 -->
01:04:10,358
Democracy is the being in a room
and, and discussing with stakeholders
1299
01:04:10,538 -->
01:04:14,458
what's gonna work and how we see the
world and how we're gonna live in
1300
01:04:14,458 -->
01:04:18,358
a shared world together, and it's
that work of consensus building.
1301
01:04:18,368 -->
01:04:23,958
And instead, the consensus building
is already moderated by corporate
1302
01:04:23,958 -->
01:04:28,948
algorithms corporations who have a
stake and tell us what can be debated
1303
01:04:28,958 -->
01:04:33,778
and how to debate it." And she was
like, "Yeah, we can't… You can't do
1304
01:04:33,778 -->
01:04:35,818
democracy under those circumstances.
1305
01:04:35,938 -->
01:04:37,048
It's already gone.
1306
01:04:37,518 -->
01:04:38,898
All that we have left is voting."
1307
01:04:38,898 -->
01:04:44,284
And then she mentions a, 1950s
short story by Asimov and I,
1308
01:04:44,384 -->
01:04:45,824
I went back and I read it.
1309
01:04:45,944 -->
01:04:47,800
Uh, it's called, Franchise.
1310
01:04:47,950 -->
01:04:53,613
Where the, The supercomputer has
determined how people will vote.
1311
01:04:54,213 -->
01:04:59,423
And so it just has to do one final
interview every election cycle.
1312
01:04:59,683 -->
01:05:04,253
It picks the most average man, it
interviews him, and it determines
1313
01:05:04,253 -->
01:05:07,893
the election result based on that
interview because we have all the data
1314
01:05:07,913 -->
01:05:10,103
and, ooh, we can just predict, right?
1315
01:05:10,853 -->
01:05:13,563
And then you look and, and Sam
Altman is saying exactly this.
1316
01:05:13,573 -->
01:05:15,823
He's saying, he's saying
that's how it should be.
1317
01:05:15,953 -->
01:05:20,653
The AI will facilitate democracy, it
will make democracy better because
1318
01:05:20,653 -->
01:05:25,573
it will know what we all want, and
then it will make the decision for
1319
01:05:25,573 -->
01:05:27,513
us based on our true desires, right?
1320
01:05:27,513 -->
01:05:30,553
And then these guys are always
defining true desire as whatever
1321
01:05:30,553 -->
01:05:32,683
keeps us in their app, right?
1322
01:05:32,753 -->
01:05:36,033
And that's somehow, that's
somehow more true, more authentic
1323
01:05:36,313 -->
01:05:37,863
than what I actually want.
1324
01:05:38,333 -->
01:05:42,613
Like, what I will get
addicted to is more authentic.
1325
01:05:42,813 -->
01:05:44,663
I don't trust authenticity , right?
1326
01:05:44,743 -->
01:05:48,763
Like, like partially because of Mark
Zuckerbergs in the world, I don't
1327
01:05:48,763 -->
01:05:53,043
trust authenticity because they keep
telling me that Facebook will be great
1328
01:05:53,053 -->
01:05:57,203
if we just all have a single identity
and, and know that identity across
1329
01:05:57,203 -->
01:05:59,033
all systems and it never changes.
1330
01:05:59,423 -->
01:06:03,353
Everything will be great if we just
trust the computer to take in what
1331
01:06:03,353 -->
01:06:07,133
it sees as our relevant data and
predicts everything else from there.
1332
01:06:07,583 -->
01:06:10,323
But who gets to determine
which data is relevant?
1333
01:06:10,643 -->
01:06:14,203
Who gets to determine
what are my true values
1334
01:06:14,587 -->
01:06:16,347
based on, based on what I'll click on?
1335
01:06:16,607 -->
01:06:21,107
I think about Erin and I often are
working on projects like building
1336
01:06:21,107 -->
01:06:22,547
this shed in the backyard, right?
1337
01:06:22,547 -->
01:06:25,367
So we have tape, tape
measures laying around.
1338
01:06:25,557 -->
01:06:28,577
Sometimes we'll just walk around the
house and be like, like measuring
1339
01:06:28,577 -->
01:06:30,557
distances between ourselves and things.
1340
01:06:30,757 -->
01:06:34,487
It's meaningless data, but you treat
it as though like this is important.
1341
01:06:34,517 -->
01:06:37,467
Okay, I'm, I'm five feet
from that right now.
1342
01:06:37,487 -->
01:06:39,027
Okay, I'm three feet from you.
1343
01:06:39,547 -->
01:06:42,847
And I just see tech
walking around doing that.
1344
01:06:43,097 -->
01:06:45,907
Like we're all just walking around
with tape measures going like, "Oh,
1345
01:06:45,907 -->
01:06:48,467
you're three to-- you're three feet
away from that and you're five feet
1346
01:06:48,467 -->
01:06:54,187
away from that," and, and then acting
like this is relevant data and that
1347
01:06:54,187 -->
01:06:59,677
we can build systems that will predict
our lives based on random measurements
1348
01:06:59,697 -->
01:07:04,927
that somebody decided to take, not
because those were useful measurements,
1349
01:07:05,057 -->
01:07:06,517
but because they're easy to take.
1350
01:07:06,727 -->
01:07:12,487
It's easy to track clicks, so
now we have to claim that clicks
1351
01:07:12,587 -->
01:07:15,317
stand in for true desires.
1352
01:07:15,783 -->
01:07:17,403
I am so sick of this
1353
01:07:18,549 -->
01:07:19,419
Brad: Yeah, yeah.
1354
01:07:19,529 -->
01:07:22,829
Miriam: You can see I'm going on
tangents, but this is how I think.
1355
01:07:22,879 -->
01:07:25,989
Brad: I-- It, it comes back to what
we were talking about with this,
1356
01:07:25,989 -->
01:07:31,799
like, the creative process, and
that, that dude that's like, "I'm
1357
01:07:31,809 -->
01:07:37,589
going to… I hear what you're saying
and all, but like, if only everyone
1358
01:07:37,589 -->
01:07:39,689
would see it my way," or, like, "I, I
1359
01:07:39,699 -->
01:07:41,679
have the solution,
1360
01:07:41,773 -->
01:07:44,333
Miriam: But I have the data and it's true.
1361
01:07:44,899 -->
01:07:45,389
Brad: yes.
1362
01:07:45,439 -->
01:07:46,159
Right, right, right.
1363
01:07:46,179 -->
01:07:51,389
And so I'm going to, like, construct
my narrative, like, to entrench my
1364
01:07:51,409 -->
01:07:54,459
thing and make it so that my answer, my
1365
01:07:54,459 -->
01:07:58,069
solution, my thing is, is the answer.
1366
01:07:58,251 -->
01:08:03,262
Miriam: So now we're living in a world
where the only answer I'm supposed to want
1367
01:08:03,272 -->
01:08:06,772
is whatever Reddit said but shuffled What?
1368
01:08:06,972 -->
01:08:09,122
I didn't, I never cared what Reddit said.
1369
01:08:09,322 -->
01:08:10,722
That's just some guys.
1370
01:08:10,902 -->
01:08:11,722
I don't know them.
1371
01:08:12,002 -->
01:08:16,142
Brad: this is all, like, very important
because it's like, this is the, the shit
1372
01:08:16,192 -->
01:08:24,382
that I internally, like, wrestle with as
someone who has been able to apply a lot
1373
01:08:24,382 -->
01:08:31,672
of this in ways that like, you know, to,
to, to do the split brain process which
1374
01:08:31,682 -->
01:08:35,518
I've, I've done, j-judge me, I, I guess.
1375
01:08:35,548 -->
01:08:39,308
Here's like the reality of
like, okay, Here's this thing.
1376
01:08:39,608 -->
01:08:40,648
There's some stuff.
1377
01:08:40,738 -->
01:08:42,578
There is a there there.
1378
01:08:42,588 -->
01:08:46,198
I guess it's not but I'm
able to use it, and I'm
1379
01:08:46,198 -->
01:08:47,858
like, Okay, that's it.
1380
01:08:47,938 -->
01:08:53,220
That's interesting." disagree
with power structures
1381
01:08:53,220 -->
01:08:57,400
and like the, the corporate structures
and stuff all around it and whatever.
1382
01:08:57,910 -->
01:09:03,860
put-- drawing a wedge between here is
this, this fundamentally new technology
1383
01:09:03,860 -->
01:09:09,750
material that can be used in the same
way that I've been doing my entire life,
1384
01:09:09,750 -->
01:09:15,820
which is, okay, here are new technologies,
artistic mediums, whatever, and I'm going
1385
01:09:15,820 -->
01:09:20,600
to like investigate and approach it with
like curiosity and see like what I like
1386
01:09:20,600 -->
01:09:22,220
about it, what I don't like about it.
1387
01:09:23,010 -->
01:09:27,287
And I g- and, and, and landing in a place
where I'm like, "Oh, I've been doing some
1388
01:09:27,307 -->
01:09:33,127
stuff that I'm like, "Oh, I've had this
dream," 'cause I was really bad at running
1389
01:09:33,127 -->
01:09:40,102
my books for the first say eight years of,
of running my business, and I've always
1390
01:09:40,112 -->
01:09:42,822
wanted to backfill all of this stuff.
1391
01:09:42,852 -->
01:09:45,912
And I'm like, I know like mentally
like what needs to happen.
1392
01:09:45,912 -->
01:09:50,472
I need to basically go through
PDF statements of like old
1393
01:09:50,482 -->
01:09:54,312
transactions and just reconcile
them in Harvest or whatever.
1394
01:09:54,312 -->
01:09:59,212
And I'm like… and I need like a
little program that d-d-- dro-- writes
1395
01:09:59,212 -->
01:10:01,552
the extractor to extract like the PDF.
1396
01:10:01,732 -->
01:10:05,192
And so I'm like, "Oh." And like, so
like finally like get to this place
1397
01:10:05,192 -->
01:10:09,222
where I'm like, oh, okay, like,
not like throwing it at everything,
1398
01:10:09,222 -->
01:10:10,462
but I'm like, I'm-- I am, I'm
1399
01:10:10,468 -->
01:10:10,748
Miriam: Right
1400
01:10:10,992 -->
01:10:14,482
Brad: myself going like, "Oh,
okay." Like I've like filled in
1401
01:10:14,592 -->
01:10:15,192
Miriam: Yeah.
1402
01:10:15,282 -->
01:10:15,932
Brad: that I've been
1403
01:10:15,932 -->
01:10:18,742
like kinda sh- bad with before.
1404
01:10:18,742 -->
01:10:24,082
But I'm like, but yeah, but at the
same time, I'm like, I feel really
1405
01:10:24,092 -->
01:10:28,629
bad and conflicted about everything
because I'm like-- I am participating
1406
01:10:28,629 -->
01:10:33,719
in this stuff, and I am, by way
of doing this, I am feeding that
1407
01:10:33,719 -->
01:10:35,879
beast, and I, I don't like it 'cause
1408
01:10:35,913 -->
01:10:36,103
Miriam: Yeah.
1409
01:10:36,149 -->
01:10:36,709
Brad: agree with it.
1410
01:10:37,403 -->
01:10:43,006
Miriam: I, I don't want to seem like a
purist, like, like you can remain pure
1411
01:10:43,006 -->
01:10:48,324
of s- some system I think for me, it's
like I don't blame people for using
1412
01:10:48,324 -->
01:10:54,364
the tools that are in front of them,
but I do blame people for hyping the
1413
01:10:54,364 -->
01:10:57,344
tools that they know are causing harm.
1414
01:10:58,084 -->
01:11:03,865
So I'm like, Okay, it's, fits your
process writing Python or whatever.
1415
01:11:04,215 -->
01:11:05,165
I get it.
1416
01:11:05,765 -->
01:11:10,285
I don't know that I would make the same
trade-off, but I get, I get the thinking.
1417
01:11:10,825 -->
01:11:12,575
but as soon as, as soon as you're like,
1418
01:11:12,765 -->
01:11:13,025
Brad: You can,
1419
01:11:13,195 -->
01:11:14,655
Miriam: "And, and because"
1420
01:11:15,145 -->
01:11:18,815
Brad: I'm fi- I'm fine, I'm fine with
it 'cause, like, I, I ju- 'cause,
1421
01:11:18,825 -->
01:11:22,215
like, I, like, I, like, everything
that you've said, I'm like, "Yeah.
1422
01:11:22,495 -->
01:11:22,515
Y-
1423
01:11:22,595 -->
01:11:23,045
Miriam: Yeah.
1424
01:11:23,055 -->
01:11:23,775
Brad: all of it," and
1425
01:11:23,925 -->
01:11:24,085
Miriam: But
1426
01:11:24,085 -->
01:11:24,405
it's
1427
01:11:24,445 -->
01:11:25,145
Brad: here I am
1428
01:11:25,580 -->
01:11:28,030
Miriam: it's a particular
developer corner to turn.
1429
01:11:28,560 -->
01:11:34,590
And I- it's making me really frustrated
with developers to say, like, "I found
1430
01:11:34,590 -->
01:11:42,470
some use in, like, having conversations
with Claude about my Python," and
1431
01:11:42,480 -->
01:11:48,910
going from there to, like, "This is
intelligent," or, or, "This is," or, "This
1432
01:11:48,910 -->
01:11:52,070
is even broadly a good for humanity."
1433
01:11:52,530 -->
01:11:55,200
I don't know whether you're
writing your Python faster or not.
1434
01:11:55,550 -->
01:12:00,120
I just don't find that a… Like, I, I
understand why you would do that given
1435
01:12:00,120 -->
01:12:03,980
the tool put in front of you and given
bosses telling you that you have to.
1436
01:12:04,280 -->
01:12:05,110
Sure, sure.
1437
01:12:05,770 -->
01:12:10,190
I'm not saying that you're responsible
for personally destroying the world.
1438
01:12:10,610 -->
01:12:15,760
But when you then turn around and say,
"And therefore, this does actually
1439
01:12:15,760 -->
01:12:20,320
have a use, and we can just brush off
everything else," suddenly I'm like,
1440
01:12:20,330 -->
01:12:25,090
"Whoa, where did we… How did we get
there?" 'Cause I'm like, yeah, I see
1441
01:12:25,090 -->
01:12:30,650
ways that I maybe could use this, I
guess, but none of them feel worth
1442
01:12:30,650 -->
01:12:36,930
it to me for, like, mass surveillance
and handing over my, my data and my
1443
01:12:36,930 -->
01:12:42,130
questions to these corporations that are
trying to put me out of work and, and
1444
01:12:42,130 -->
01:12:47,450
really, like, they fundamentally believe
that humans should be done away with.
1445
01:12:47,910 -->
01:12:52,480
I mean, you watch the Peter Thiel
interview like "Should… Do you
1446
01:12:52,480 -->
01:12:55,860
think humans have a place in the
future?" And he's like, "Nah." Later,
1447
01:12:55,860 -->
01:12:57,270
like, he can't answer the question.
1448
01:12:57,280 -->
01:12:57,590
Like,
1449
01:12:57,776 -->
01:12:58,046
Brad: Yeah.
1450
01:12:58,160 -->
01:13:01,740
Miriam: these guys do not believe
what I believe, and they're building
1451
01:13:01,740 -->
01:13:04,120
a product that fits their beliefs.
1452
01:13:04,705 -->
01:13:05,985
it is not a neutral…
1453
01:13:06,205 -->
01:13:10,655
There is some, like, technology at
the base of this that's interesting.
1454
01:13:10,755 -->
01:13:16,355
That's like, "Oh, yeah, we can do
statistical, analysis of data," right?
1455
01:13:16,385 -->
01:13:21,155
But that doesn't mean our data is good,
and that doesn't mean we need to surveil
1456
01:13:21,185 -->
01:13:23,955
the internet and steal all language.
1457
01:13:24,355 -->
01:13:28,055
We were using machine learning
technologies for interesting things
1458
01:13:28,105 -->
01:13:33,055
before, before we tacked large
onto the start of this term, right?
1459
01:13:33,095 -->
01:13:36,565
We had language models
without eating the internet.
1460
01:13:36,715 -->
01:13:38,405
And they were focused on a task.
1461
01:13:38,825 -->
01:13:43,925
They were, they were tools that served
a purpose a narrow, limited purpose.
1462
01:13:44,057 -->
01:13:48,607
they were built to do the
thing well instead of built
1463
01:13:48,617 -->
01:13:52,037
to look like an intelligence
that does everything mediocre.
1464
01:13:52,220 -->
01:13:55,480
and then we have to sort of somehow defend
it by being like, "Well, it did this one
1465
01:13:55,480 -->
01:14:01,140
thing okay," and it does feel intelligent
in that it uses language pretty well,
1466
01:14:01,140 -->
01:14:03,110
and it does use language pretty well.
1467
01:14:03,130 -->
01:14:04,400
That's an interesting thing.
1468
01:14:04,730 -->
01:14:08,752
Like, we've learned to mechanize
language I think that's fascinating.
1469
01:14:09,354 -->
01:14:09,544
Brad: Mm-hmm.
1470
01:14:09,612 -->
01:14:13,762
Miriam: But even learning to mechanize
language doesn't mean that we have to
1471
01:14:14,442 -->
01:14:19,062
build a million new data centers and
discard all of our global warming goals.
1472
01:14:19,592 -->
01:14:23,852
Like, we can see that as an
interesting technology without
1473
01:14:24,552 -->
01:14:29,362
adapting what these companies
tell us is the, the result of it.
1474
01:14:30,000 -->
01:14:30,270
Brad: Yeah.
1475
01:14:30,462 -->
01:14:31,462
Miriam: they're making that up.
1476
01:14:32,022 -->
01:14:36,192
And I come in with a very strong
like, "Yeah, I'm living in the
1477
01:14:36,192 -->
01:14:39,962
world as it exists, but also I
get to decide which rules I follow
1478
01:14:39,962 -->
01:14:41,452
and which ones I don't." And
1479
01:14:41,452 -->
01:14:46,522
I to, I get to, be like, "No, that doesn't
work for me." Like, I built my company
1480
01:14:46,532 -->
01:14:51,142
different from other companies because
I don't believe in the shit, right?
1481
01:14:51,152 -->
01:14:54,522
And we've had consultants come in,
and every time they tell us the
1482
01:14:54,522 -->
01:14:57,682
same thing, which is basically boils
down to, "You know you could pay
1483
01:14:57,682 -->
01:15:01,772
women less than men." And you know,
like, that's not how they say it.
1484
01:15:02,082 -->
01:15:05,842
But always when you boil it down, it's
like, "You don't have to pay everybody
1485
01:15:05,842 -->
01:15:07,862
well. You could pay some people worse."
1486
01:15:08,182 -->
01:15:12,002
And I'm like, "You're right, and that's
the world we live in. But that doesn't
1487
01:15:12,002 -->
01:15:15,832
mean I'm going to embrace it. I'm
not, I'm not, I'm not cool with that."
1488
01:15:16,620 -->
01:15:17,150
Brad: Yeah
1489
01:15:17,452 -->
01:15:20,162
Miriam: like, yeah, I know that
that's how you run a company and
1490
01:15:20,162 -->
01:15:24,732
that that's helpful for your bottom
line and all, all sorts of things.
1491
01:15:24,832 -->
01:15:28,772
But I get to decide if that's a
trade-off that I'm interested in.
1492
01:15:29,520 -->
01:15:29,900
Brad: Yeah
1493
01:15:30,132 -->
01:15:32,272
Miriam: more and more I'm not interested.
1494
01:15:32,782 -->
01:15:34,472
Brad: There's a number
of things that came up.
1495
01:15:34,652 -->
01:15:39,162
It's like, one, you're sort of
talking about like your own values
1496
01:15:39,202 -->
01:15:43,872
and thresholds and like your agency to
1497
01:15:43,892 -->
01:15:48,371
be able to to, decide whether
or not to do, to do something.
1498
01:15:48,381 -->
01:15:52,191
And like, that's definitely part
of like the narrative that we, that
1499
01:15:52,191 -->
01:15:57,101
I see a lot is like, here is like
the inevitability and so, and that
1500
01:15:57,101 -->
01:16:01,091
inevitability translates to a rolling over
1501
01:16:01,191 -->
01:16:04,071
and, and an acceptance and an embrace of a
1502
01:16:04,163 -->
01:16:04,623
Miriam: Right.
1503
01:16:04,701 -->
01:16:06,861
Brad: of the, of the
entirety of it, right?
1504
01:16:06,881 -->
01:16:07,211
And I
1505
01:16:07,353 -->
01:16:08,033
Miriam: Yeah
1506
01:16:08,621 -->
01:16:12,481
Brad: where, where there is a--
I'm not necessarily convinced
1507
01:16:12,481 -->
01:16:14,331
it's an in-an inevitability.
1508
01:16:14,531 -->
01:16:19,921
I, I am convinced in, through my own
experience with it that I'm like, oh,
1509
01:16:20,231 -->
01:16:26,181
I, I see some value there, but I'm
able to hopefully draw that line of
1510
01:16:26,181 -->
01:16:29,411
like, well, that doesn't mean that
I'm like suddenly like cool with
1511
01:16:29,421 -->
01:16:31,081
like all of this stuff, and I wanna
1512
01:16:31,323 -->
01:16:31,653
Miriam: Right
1513
01:16:31,801 -->
01:16:37,881
Brad: part to like help sort of like
say, "Hey, if there is a there there,
1514
01:16:37,881 -->
01:16:42,301
if there is utility to this, then
it's beholden on-- like, like the
1515
01:16:42,423 -->
01:16:42,773
Miriam: Yeah.
1516
01:16:43,021 -->
01:16:43,361
Brad: on
1517
01:16:43,633 -->
01:16:44,363
Miriam: Yeah.
1518
01:16:44,523 -->
01:16:45,213
Yes.
1519
01:16:45,281 -->
01:16:45,921
Brad: for a
1520
01:16:46,153 -->
01:16:46,493
Miriam: Yes.
1521
01:16:46,513 -->
01:16:48,603
The more utility you see,
1522
01:16:49,015 -->
01:16:51,335
the more it's on you to fix it.
1523
01:16:51,883 -->
01:16:55,663
Brad: And that's, and that's the
thing that I think is just utterly
1524
01:16:55,683 -->
01:17:01,103
and completely just despicable when
it comes to those people at the very
1525
01:17:01,103 -->
01:17:07,398
top, is how they are to just, like,
talk about this stuff as, like, a
1526
01:17:07,398 -->
01:17:13,928
panacea, as, like, the end-all be-all,
and to do literally everything to
1527
01:17:13,938 -->
01:17:20,518
just skirt or just circumvent or,
like, not absorb or even receive any
1528
01:17:20,610 -->
01:17:21,000
Miriam: Right
1529
01:17:21,538 -->
01:17:21,918
Brad: of it.
1530
01:17:21,918 -->
01:17:24,398
It's like, that's so fucking shitty.
1531
01:17:24,438 -->
01:17:29,218
It's like, like you're, you're allowed
to say, "Yeah, we have something," and
1532
01:17:29,218 -->
01:17:33,098
like, "Yes, also these environmental
impacts," and, "Yes, all of, like,
1533
01:17:33,098 -->
01:17:38,348
these things are also true." And
like, "We, we want to do this."
1534
01:17:38,348 -->
01:17:41,068
Like, like that's, that's available.
1535
01:17:41,218 -->
01:17:42,308
That is an option.
1536
01:17:42,308 -->
01:17:44,608
But again, these people
have de-demonstrated again
1537
01:17:44,608 -->
01:17:45,558
and again and again and
1538
01:17:45,656 -->
01:17:46,016
Miriam: Yeah
1539
01:17:46,268 -->
01:17:47,418
Brad: that that isn't the case.
1540
01:17:47,428 -->
01:17:53,118
So it's like very clearly my, my hope
is that there is there-- that there
1541
01:17:53,118 -->
01:17:57,998
is room, like anything, when there's
three companies or whatever that are
1542
01:17:57,998 -->
01:18:01,728
kind of vying for something, that there
is like this ability for-- there is
1543
01:18:01,728 -->
01:18:06,628
room for people to say, "Here's the
nugget of the technology," and like
1544
01:18:06,782 -->
01:18:07,202
Miriam: Right
1545
01:18:07,428 -->
01:18:11,068
Brad: kind of do this in a way that
isn't fully reprehensible and whatever.
1546
01:18:11,338 -->
01:18:14,708
And that's the stuff that,
like, I want to see more of.
1547
01:18:14,878 -->
01:18:18,908
And, but, but yeah, as, as somebody
who's out there, like, kind of like
1548
01:18:19,108 -->
01:18:25,947
I am participating in this, but I
also like want to say like, yeah, I'm
1549
01:18:25,958 -->
01:18:31,638
t- continue to be uneasy about it,
especially with just feeling like I am
1550
01:18:31,768 -->
01:18:36,948
just kinda going, "Ah." Yeah, but it's--
I don't wanna dimini-- like it, it's,
1551
01:18:36,958 -->
01:18:41,187
it's a very interesting place to be,
to be like, kind of like crave almost
1552
01:18:41,188 -->
01:18:45,187
like the, like your perspective and
like other people that are like pretty
1553
01:18:45,198 -->
01:18:49,806
adamantly like opposed to it because
it's like like agree with all of it.
1554
01:18:49,856 -->
01:18:53,256
I just am like able to
like try to navigate
1555
01:18:53,320 -->
01:18:53,600
Miriam: Yeah
1556
01:18:53,776 -->
01:18:57,906
Brad: where I'm like, yeah, like, but
this thing did help me do this stuff.
1557
01:18:57,926 -->
01:18:58,196
And
1558
01:18:58,298 -->
01:18:58,778
Miriam: Sure
1559
01:18:58,856 -->
01:19:02,673
Brad: I'm seeing, I'm seeing, like, real
benefits, like, the most interesting
1560
01:19:02,673 -->
01:19:06,173
thing is I'm like, oh yeah, I'm,
like, doing it so that, like, I don't
1561
01:19:06,183 -->
01:19:08,273
have to do it in, like, the future.
1562
01:19:08,273 -->
01:19:10,793
I'm, like, filling in, like,
all, like, the little holes in my
1563
01:19:10,793 -->
01:19:14,699
foundation and then I'm at this place
where I'm like, "Cool, well, I have
1564
01:19:14,699 -->
01:19:16,099
all, like, the pieces that I need.
1565
01:19:16,099 -->
01:19:19,589
Like, I don't need to keep, like,
throwing myself at this thing." It's
1566
01:19:19,589 -->
01:19:24,329
like, it's almost, like, kinda like,
yeah, I know that doing a bug bomb to
1567
01:19:24,349 -->
01:19:29,149
get my-- the roaches out of my house-
Mm. it's a bad it's, it's not the best
1568
01:19:29,159 -->
01:19:32,149
for the environment or whatever, but
it's like a single-- a one-time use.
1569
01:19:32,179 -->
01:19:32,579
I don't know.
1570
01:19:32,689 -->
01:19:33,519
May-maybe I'm,
1571
01:19:33,829 -->
01:19:34,139
Miriam: Yeah.
1572
01:19:34,139 -->
01:19:34,229
I
1573
01:19:34,229 -->
01:19:34,419
mean,
1574
01:19:34,649 -->
01:19:34,879
Brad: I'm
1575
01:19:35,029 -->
01:19:35,309
Miriam: I
1576
01:19:35,629 -->
01:19:39,469
Brad: I'm trying not to, like, make,
like, excuses for it, but to, like,
1577
01:19:39,669 -->
01:19:43,979
literally, like, just sit in the
discomfort of this, like, place where
1578
01:19:43,979 -->
01:19:48,979
I'm, like, simultaneously seeing the
benefits from it, but also not trying
1579
01:19:48,979 -->
01:19:54,419
to tip over into the excusing a lot
of the, the crap that comes with it.
1580
01:19:54,459 -->
01:19:55,079
I don't know.
1581
01:19:55,401 -->
01:20:00,791
Miriam: it's difficult from my
perspective because the people who I
1582
01:20:00,791 -->
01:20:06,731
don't know, claim a nuanced view often
only express the, what they're getting
1583
01:20:06,731 -->
01:20:08,721
out of it and sort of defensively.
1584
01:20:09,201 -->
01:20:13,411
"But, but I'm getting these things
out of it." And I'm like, "Okay Great.
1585
01:20:13,561 -->
01:20:13,921
Cool.
1586
01:20:14,121 -->
01:20:16,021
Where is the part where you're fighting?
1587
01:20:16,221 -->
01:20:18,721
Where is the part where you're
saying it has to be different?
1588
01:20:18,859 -->
01:20:23,039
how come it's only those of us who are
like, "Mm, I don't, I don't need this"?
1589
01:20:23,369 -->
01:20:29,311
How come it's only us that are willing
to, be like, "This has to, this has
1590
01:20:29,311 -->
01:20:33,451
to be better. This has to be better
to the world and to other people"?
1591
01:20:34,221 -->
01:20:40,451
it's lonely out here seeing only,
the only critiques coming from
1592
01:20:40,491 -->
01:20:42,381
people who only have critiques.
1593
01:20:43,027 -->
01:20:43,337
Brad: Yeah.
1594
01:20:43,607 -->
01:20:43,977
Yeah.
1595
01:20:44,141 -->
01:20:45,951
Miriam: that's, that's frustrating.
1596
01:20:46,361 -->
01:20:49,671
And it's, I think it particularly
frustrates me with developers.
1597
01:20:49,711 -->
01:20:54,551
I'm like, I'm like, I have seen my
entire job in this career has been,
1598
01:20:54,881 -->
01:20:58,171
has been steering clients away from
things that I think are dangerous.
1599
01:20:58,721 -->
01:21:03,701
Um, Has been like, I know that that's
what people expect, but that's bad,
1600
01:21:04,121 -->
01:21:06,211
and we shouldn't perpetuate it.
1601
01:21:06,817 -->
01:21:07,167
Brad: Yeah
1602
01:21:07,171 -->
01:21:12,991
Miriam: and to me, that's the whole
purpose of design and like, and like
1603
01:21:12,991 -->
01:21:16,431
an expertise in design, is that I
can look at something and be like,
1604
01:21:16,841 -->
01:21:20,431
"No, but that's harm- I know it helps
your bottom line, but it's harmful.
1605
01:21:20,854 -->
01:21:25,454
and we're not gonna, we're not gonna help
you perpetuate that just because it helps
1606
01:21:25,454 -->
01:21:30,804
your bottom line." And I feel like I see
that all, all through my life, just so
1607
01:21:30,804 -->
01:21:39,028
many things that would help my bottom line
on a scale from downright scams to, to not
1608
01:21:39,128 -->
01:21:43,218
quite as scammy, but sort of considered
normal, but sort of a little bit scammy,
1609
01:21:43,232 -->
01:21:43,512
Brad: Yeah,
1610
01:21:43,788 -->
01:21:47,770
Miriam: There's all sorts of like,
get rich quick and I can decide
1611
01:21:47,770 -->
01:21:49,320
not to do them, even though,
1612
01:21:49,322 -->
01:21:49,652
Brad: Yeah
1613
01:21:50,140 -->
01:21:53,490
Miriam: I don't know, they,
that would help me in some way.
1614
01:21:53,880 -->
01:21:59,035
I can be like, "Yeah, but at what
cost?" And I think, yeah, I think
1615
01:21:59,045 -->
01:22:03,785
as a designer, my question or my, my
facilitating with clients is always
1616
01:22:03,785 -->
01:22:07,835
around the like, "Yeah, nope, the
costs aren't worth it on that one.
1617
01:22:07,845 -->
01:22:13,585
Let's, let's steer you towards something
that is not a, a manipulative pattern.
1618
01:22:13,946 -->
01:22:16,856
Um, Let's steer you towards
more humane software.
1619
01:22:17,422 -->
01:22:22,412
how, how can we do that?" And so, then
it's absurd to me to see the industry go
1620
01:22:22,412 -->
01:22:26,922
like, "Well, I know that there's problems,
but it helped me in a way." And I'm like,
1621
01:22:27,502 -->
01:22:29,982
"What, what's, what's even our job here?
1622
01:22:30,522 -->
01:22:33,502
What are we, what are we doing
if that's as far as we can get?"
1623
01:22:34,138 -->
01:22:34,508
Brad: Yeah.
1624
01:22:34,542 -->
01:22:35,642
Miriam: I don't understand it.
1625
01:22:36,158 -->
01:22:38,558
Brad: Well, and it's-- And, and I
think that you're touching on it
1626
01:22:38,568 -->
01:22:42,708
really well in saying it's like, oh,
there's, there's like the bottom line
1627
01:22:42,778 -->
01:22:47,628
as like the, the goal, but then you
also said like the word like humane.
1628
01:22:47,898 -->
01:22:51,608
And whenever people talk about like,
"Oh yeah, here are these like things
1629
01:22:51,608 -->
01:22:54,768
like th-this stuff will like help
build a better world," and like,
1630
01:22:55,198 -->
01:23:00,828
and it's like, well, okay, what does
it look like to apply this stuff
1631
01:23:00,828 -->
01:23:02,728
to building a more humane world?
1632
01:23:02,748 -->
01:23:07,528
And like, what specifically does that
look like, and who's doing that work?
1633
01:23:07,528 -->
01:23:11,778
And, and I th- 'cause I agree with you
that it's like when you see kind of
1634
01:23:11,788 -->
01:23:17,224
people that are to it or, or saying
like, "I'm not going to cross that
1635
01:23:17,224 -->
01:23:20,984
line," and like, you see like that,
the sort of critiquing criticism
1636
01:23:21,194 -->
01:23:23,064
rightly coming from those people.
1637
01:23:23,454 -->
01:23:27,494
I think that this is where like you
have like the coalitions people that
1638
01:23:27,494 -->
01:23:31,554
are like, oh… 'Cause the, risk with
that is that it's like, oh, well,
1639
01:23:31,554 -->
01:23:36,644
people, those people don't understand
the good stuff that it can get, and
1640
01:23:36,644 -->
01:23:40,484
so therefore they get written off as
like, they just like don't understand.
1641
01:23:40,684 -->
01:23:44,814
Meanwhile, like there's a lot of really
brilliant technologists and designers
1642
01:23:44,814 -->
01:23:49,478
and people that, that do the grain
of what this technology is without
1643
01:23:49,488 -->
01:23:53,408
having to sort of like g- have the,
the first-hand experience with it.
1644
01:23:53,408 -->
01:23:58,552
But I also think that there is like
that coalition with like the people
1645
01:23:58,552 -->
01:24:04,742
who are using it, but also that still
have a soul, I guess, and, and, and
1646
01:24:04,742 -->
01:24:09,282
are like, "Yes," like, "We, we care
about this and wanna sort of like steer
1647
01:24:09,282 -->
01:24:13,492
it in the right direction." And like
I'm, I'm very grateful to know some of
1648
01:24:13,492 -->
01:24:15,172
those people that are like, "Oh, cool.
1649
01:24:15,492 -->
01:24:19,982
Here's what I could do with like a local
model," or like, "Here's like where this
1650
01:24:19,992 -->
01:24:24,582
is going," and like, "Oh, this-- If this
is like how this stuff is trending, here's
1651
01:24:24,582 -->
01:24:27,332
how we could peel this stuff away to like
1652
01:24:27,422 -->
01:24:27,682
Miriam: Right
1653
01:24:27,882 -->
01:24:30,712
Brad: like some of the stuff." I'm like,
"Hell yeah." Like, that's, that's good
1654
01:24:30,722 -->
01:24:32,572
stuff, and I like wanna see more of it.
1655
01:24:32,612 -->
01:24:38,362
I, I don't have enough of like a grasp
on like the, the technology of it, so
1656
01:24:38,362 -->
01:24:40,442
like kinda like downstream from that.
1657
01:24:40,442 -->
01:24:41,862
But just like standards of
1658
01:24:41,978 -->
01:24:42,298
Miriam: yeah.
1659
01:24:42,562 -->
01:24:46,702
Brad: I kinda see like what you're
doing, but like I'm, I'm happy to like
1660
01:24:46,702 -->
01:24:52,362
follow suit like when these like kind
of saner and more humane alternatives
1661
01:24:52,362 -->
01:24:56,262
and stuff like arise, and I wanna
like do my part to like kinda help
1662
01:24:56,462 -->
01:24:57,372
promote that and
1663
01:24:57,610 -->
01:24:58,810
Miriam: I want people
1664
01:24:58,902 -->
01:24:59,192
Brad: so.
1665
01:24:59,620 -->
01:25:03,630
Miriam: questions like, "Could,
could a smaller model that's not
1666
01:25:03,830 -->
01:25:05,960
ba- built on surveillance do this?
1667
01:25:06,480 -->
01:25:06,490
Brad: Mm-hmm.
1668
01:25:06,708 -->
01:25:10,918
Miriam: could, could I script it?" I think
somebody on our team had this idea of,
1669
01:25:10,928 -->
01:25:16,291
like, a website that's like, "Can I script
it?" Uh, And you put in, like, what you
1670
01:25:16,291 -->
01:25:21,071
were gonna ask the chatbot to do, and,
like, if you can write a Python script
1671
01:25:21,191 -->
01:25:23,901
that does it, write the Python script.
1672
01:25:24,351 -->
01:25:29,250
Like, that's … It's, we don't need
to always, we don't need to always
1673
01:25:29,250 -->
01:25:33,210
use the most expensive thing just
because it has the least friction.
1674
01:25:33,520 -->
01:25:35,500
yeah, that's not the
world I want to live in.
1675
01:25:36,149 -->
01:25:42,019
I understand that there are advantages
to mass surveillance, mass policing,
1676
01:25:42,019 -->
01:25:45,139
and mass incarceration, and I still
think those things are wrong, and
1677
01:25:45,139 -->
01:25:46,299
I don't wanna be part of them.
1678
01:25:46,819 -->
01:25:51,649
I don't think the trade-offs are worth
it and I'm gonna keep saying that.
1679
01:25:51,709 -->
01:25:57,239
And I don't, I don't like a world where
we go, "Well, but there's something…
1680
01:25:57,540 -->
01:26:01,599
it sometimes helps, and therefore,
we can brush aside everything else.
1681
01:26:02,267 -->
01:26:02,617
Brad: Yeah.
1682
01:26:02,669 -->
01:26:05,796
Miriam: it helped… I got
mine." Uh, that's, uh, it's
1683
01:26:05,816 -->
01:26:07,176
n- it's not the world I want.
1684
01:26:07,306 -->
01:26:11,146
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna keep questioning it.
1685
01:26:11,554 -->
01:26:14,194
Brad: And there's, there's certain
things it's like you'd really have
1686
01:26:14,194 -->
01:26:18,282
to… what's been described as like
the original sin was like it just
1687
01:26:18,312 -->
01:26:20,782
kinda eating the internet without
1688
01:26:20,782 -->
01:26:23,772
anybody's permission, and then
just being like, " Well, this
1689
01:26:24,004 -->
01:26:24,444
Miriam: Oops.
1690
01:26:24,612 -->
01:26:25,182
Brad: come at me.
1691
01:26:25,182 -->
01:26:25,462
Yeah.
1692
01:26:25,512 -->
01:26:26,492
Oops." Right?
1693
01:26:26,522 -->
01:26:31,557
And it's like, well, that happened,
and there ain't no going back.
1694
01:26:31,557 -->
01:26:33,427
You know, there's no
time machine for that.
1695
01:26:33,607 -->
01:26:34,817
But then there are, like,
1696
01:26:34,865 -->
01:26:35,165
Miriam: Yeah, but
1697
01:26:35,165 -->
01:26:35,335
there
1698
01:26:35,625 -->
01:26:38,345
like, there is like putting
these companies out of business.
1699
01:26:38,665 -->
01:26:39,315
That's a thing.
1700
01:26:39,555 -->
01:26:41,355
That's a thing, and it's a
thing we're allowed to do.
1701
01:26:41,375 -->
01:26:43,635
We're allowed societally to do that.
1702
01:26:43,665 -->
01:26:46,215
And I mean, like, I can't just
do that on my own, and you
1703
01:26:46,215 -->
01:26:47,455
can't just do that on your own.
1704
01:26:47,855 -->
01:26:52,645
But we can as a society be like,
"No, that's out of bounds."
1705
01:26:53,335 -->
01:26:54,395
We do that all the time.
1706
01:26:54,765 -->
01:26:55,025
I mean,
1707
01:26:55,025 -->
01:26:55,165
we
1708
01:26:55,625 -->
01:26:56,995
we have, no trespassing signs.
1709
01:26:57,495 -->
01:26:59,545
Like, that's much more absurd.
1710
01:27:00,115 -->
01:27:02,895
But like we can say things
are out of bounds societally.
1711
01:27:02,925 -->
01:27:03,795
We can do that.
1712
01:27:04,135 -->
01:27:07,675
And we don't have to be like, "Just
because you have all the money, y- I
1713
01:27:07,675 -->
01:27:10,325
guess you get to make the rules now."
1714
01:27:10,990 -->
01:27:15,070
Brad: yeah, but yeah, like, so,
so, so there's that and, and 100%,
1715
01:27:15,110 -->
01:27:18,150
even though that happened, that's
not like, like a forgivable thing.
1716
01:27:18,150 -->
01:27:22,300
And it's like, yeah, like let's,
let's-- here's bottles that aren't
1717
01:27:22,590 -->
01:27:26,310
that way and, and let's, let's
get out there and promote them.
1718
01:27:26,320 -->
01:27:30,080
It-- much like the, you know, the
Fire foxes of the world and, and the
1719
01:27:30,080 -->
01:27:31,290
rest of them and stuff like that.
1720
01:27:31,290 -->
01:27:35,430
It's like there, there are these things
and these abilities to like kind of create
1721
01:27:35,850 -->
01:27:40,680
these, these alternate structures that
like give you the same benefit for--
1722
01:27:40,876 -->
01:27:41,296
Miriam: Mm-hmm
1723
01:27:41,760 -->
01:27:44,170
Brad: a lot of like the crap
that comes along for the ride.
1724
01:27:44,480 -->
01:27:47,930
And then there, and then there are
these things that are just like, okay,
1725
01:27:47,980 -->
01:27:52,890
well, how about let's not like take
these environmental costs as like,
1726
01:27:52,950 -->
01:27:58,970
as a given, and are there things
that can be done to pressure things?
1727
01:27:59,172 -->
01:27:59,332
Miriam: href
1728
01:27:59,527 -->
01:28:04,206
Brad: there is infrastructure, a, a data
center exists or it doesn't, and some
1729
01:28:04,206 -->
01:28:06,956
of those things even are not binaries.
1730
01:28:06,976 -->
01:28:12,447
It's like, well, what does it look like
to actually like go, what if these things
1731
01:28:12,827 -->
01:28:15,976
were not just like these coming in under a
1732
01:28:16,148 -->
01:28:16,258
Miriam: Yeah.
1733
01:28:16,306 -->
01:28:20,776
Brad: company and like just suddenly
just being erected with a big middle
1734
01:28:20,918 -->
01:28:21,388
Miriam: Yeah,
1735
01:28:21,636 -->
01:28:26,097
Brad: But what if this was
built in a more communal way?
1736
01:28:26,097 -->
01:28:26,736
And what if like
1737
01:28:26,787 -->
01:28:28,137
people actually cared about this?
1738
01:28:28,166 -->
01:28:29,086
Like it's, it's like,
1739
01:28:29,516 -->
01:28:29,956
Miriam: Yeah,
1740
01:28:30,116 -->
01:28:30,456
Brad: it, it
1741
01:28:30,536 -->
01:28:31,656
Miriam: I think that's interesting
1742
01:28:31,757 -->
01:28:34,026
Brad: the all or nothing, the,
1743
01:28:34,248 -->
01:28:34,728
Miriam: Yeah.
1744
01:28:35,147 -->
01:28:35,507
Brad: thing.
1745
01:28:35,507 -->
01:28:36,886
It's like, like there's these
1746
01:28:36,898 -->
01:28:37,698
Miriam: But also
1747
01:28:37,736 -->
01:28:42,197
Brad: it's like walk it back to, to
like more reasonable like things,
1748
01:28:42,197 -->
01:28:47,396
and that requires like these
companies actually like having to be
1749
01:28:47,666 -->
01:28:48,206
Miriam: Yeah.
1750
01:28:48,296 -->
01:28:50,456
Brad: and that's happening now where it's
1751
01:28:50,556 -->
01:28:50,906
Miriam: What I s-
1752
01:28:51,046 -->
01:28:53,206
Brad: things are-- they're,
they're, they're being forced
1753
01:28:53,496 -->
01:28:55,006
to be confronted with like
1754
01:28:55,006 -->
01:28:58,236
communities that are like, Hey,
yeah, we're not going to take this."
1755
01:28:58,256 -->
01:28:58,586
And they're
1756
01:28:58,586 -->
01:29:00,226
like, "Ugh," like… It's like the
1757
01:29:00,288 -->
01:29:01,008
Miriam: Yeah, I think,
1758
01:29:01,096 -->
01:29:02,096
Brad: of like dissent
1759
01:29:02,296 -->
01:29:05,316
Miriam: yeah, I think, I think it's
interesting to ask those questions, but
1760
01:29:05,316 -->
01:29:12,226
I think it's also good to remember that,
like, we constantly stack up current
1761
01:29:12,236 -->
01:29:19,196
harms against hypothetical gains in the
future and act like the hypothetical
1762
01:29:19,206 -->
01:29:22,606
gains outweigh actual current harms.
1763
01:29:22,646 -->
01:29:29,456
And I, I get frustrated that society-wide,
not just around this one thing, but
1764
01:29:29,556 -->
01:29:33,706
sort of like, I mean, it's a little
bit trickle-down theory is that, right?
1765
01:29:33,706 -->
01:29:38,146
It's like, "If we give the billionaires
all of our money now, maybe it will
1766
01:29:38,146 -->
01:29:43,626
come back to us." Which is sort of
shown to be absurd over and over again.
1767
01:29:43,736 -->
01:29:44,126
But,
1768
01:29:44,538 -->
01:29:44,888
Brad: Yeah.
1769
01:29:45,206 -->
01:29:49,677
Miriam: we have to be able to say,
No, actually, the harm is current and,
1770
01:29:49,747 -->
01:29:54,417
and has to be addressed." And then we
can start talking about, like, once
1771
01:29:54,417 -->
01:29:58,827
we've talked about ways to reduce the
harm, then we can talk about ways we
1772
01:29:58,827 -->
01:30:04,837
want to achieve those, those gains
and, and actually put focus on them.
1773
01:30:04,877 -->
01:30:05,277
Like,
1774
01:30:05,697 -->
01:30:10,727
until, until, s- nobody's using a large
language model to cure cancer, whatever.
1775
01:30:11,007 -->
01:30:15,309
But, like, until, Like, show me
your work on curing cancer and show
1776
01:30:15,309 -->
01:30:17,309
me how this work comes out of it.
1777
01:30:17,668 -->
01:30:20,858
I, I wanna know that there's actually
a direct connection here, and we're
1778
01:30:20,858 -->
01:30:24,388
talking about something real, and we're
not just, we're not just saying, "But
1779
01:30:24,438 -->
01:30:28,652
but maybe, maybe someday," and saying,
you know, "Maybe someday we'll solve
1780
01:30:28,682 -->
01:30:30,722
the climate part." So, like, we know…
1781
01:30:30,922 -->
01:30:31,112
Brad: Yeah
1782
01:30:31,160 -->
01:30:31,980
Miriam: is another thing.
1783
01:30:32,300 -->
01:30:35,880
L- like, w- we regularly point to AI
and be like, "Maybe it could solve
1784
01:30:35,880 -->
01:30:38,460
this problem," and it's like, we
already know how to solve that problem.
1785
01:30:38,850 -->
01:30:40,610
We know how to deal with climate change.
1786
01:30:40,910 -->
01:30:44,250
Like, the problem we're having is
not that we don't know what to do.
1787
01:30:44,698 -->
01:30:44,878
Brad: Yeah,
1788
01:30:45,080 -->
01:30:47,270
Miriam: that people are refusing to do it.
1789
01:30:47,786 -->
01:30:48,186
Brad: Yeah,
1790
01:30:48,440 -->
01:30:51,500
Miriam: and I see, I see
AI as a part of that.
1791
01:30:51,520 -->
01:30:54,630
It's, it's just people again
being like, "Nah, we can't
1792
01:30:54,630 -->
01:30:55,940
do that climate change thing.
1793
01:30:56,500 -->
01:31:01,120
We can't do that climate change thing
because it, it writes my Python 10 minutes
1794
01:31:01,130 -->
01:31:06,470
faster." And I'm like, " I don't c- I
don't, I do not fucking care about you
1795
01:31:06,470 -->
01:31:08,380
writing your Python 10 minutes faster."
1796
01:31:08,720 -->
01:31:12,250
Like, it, that is not
my concern in the world.
1797
01:31:12,828 -->
01:31:13,188
Brad: Yeah
1798
01:31:13,370 -->
01:31:17,330
Miriam: I w- I want to stop going
out in 100-degree weather every day.
1799
01:31:17,640 -->
01:31:18,830
What are we doing here?
1800
01:31:19,245 -->
01:31:22,935
let's solve the actual problem instead
of inventing new things that we think
1801
01:31:22,935 -->
01:31:27,335
hypothetically might give us a new answer
to a question that we've known the answer
1802
01:31:27,335 -->
01:31:28,995
to for y- what are we, what are we doing?
1803
01:31:29,005 -->
01:31:29,685
What are we doing?
1804
01:31:30,264 -->
01:31:31,684
And I know the answer to why can't we.
1805
01:31:31,684 -->
01:31:33,044
It's, it's profit.
1806
01:31:33,114 -->
01:31:34,294
Profit is why can't we.
1807
01:31:34,314 -->
01:31:34,594
But
1808
01:31:34,958 -->
01:31:39,368
Brad: Well, yeah, and, and that's,
that's a damn-- It's a freaking
1809
01:31:39,588 -->
01:31:42,028
hard thing to, up against.
1810
01:31:42,028 -->
01:31:45,558
But I think that you're rightly, I think,
sort of pointing out there's like the
1811
01:31:45,588 -->
01:31:52,548
collective action that all like kind of
is, is coordinated to its power o-over us.
1812
01:31:52,548 -->
01:31:56,668
And, and I think that, that's like a
very important point to, to take to
1813
01:31:56,668 -->
01:32:00,818
heart, which is, it's like, yes, like
what power structures are we giving
1814
01:32:00,818 -->
01:32:04,618
our, our money to and like what are
we like kind of pushing on and stuff.
1815
01:32:04,928 -->
01:32:11,568
And, and I also think your-- what you said
is, is also very potent, which is there's
1816
01:32:12,038 -->
01:32:14,788
kind of… storytelling creatures, right?
1817
01:32:14,788 -->
01:32:18,098
And, and we, we get
moved by narratives, and
1818
01:32:18,108 -->
01:32:23,318
the the narratives of those kind of like
wishful thinking like, "In the future,
1819
01:32:23,548 -->
01:32:28,158
you know, we'll all have flying cars and
universal basic income." I think that it's
1820
01:32:28,168 -->
01:32:34,678
right to sort of flip it on its head and
say, like, "Here are these thresholds that
1821
01:32:34,698 -->
01:32:40,738
if you earn, if you're able to demonstrate
the cancer-curing stuff," or like, "If we,
1822
01:32:40,748 -->
01:32:45,448
if we like kind of get to this point," or
if like, if you're able to sort of say,
1823
01:32:45,708 -->
01:32:50,078
"Here's," you said, "all of these things
that were spelled out that need to be
1824
01:32:50,078 -->
01:32:52,648
done in the climate change department."
1825
01:32:52,678 -->
01:32:56,878
And if you're saying that this
could help with that, if you help
1826
01:32:57,073 -->
01:33:01,103
that this is like moving the
needle here, well, then that
1827
01:33:01,143 -->
01:33:03,363
unlocks maybe more, you know.
1828
01:33:03,403 -->
01:33:04,223
So, so yeah.
1829
01:33:04,223 -->
01:33:04,583
So like
1830
01:33:04,623 -->
01:33:06,573
unregulated, unfettered, like
1831
01:33:06,705 -->
01:33:07,135
Miriam: yeah
1832
01:33:07,363 -->
01:33:10,953
Brad: based on like wishful
thinking, that, that can't, that
1833
01:33:11,187 -->
01:33:14,517
Miriam: Well, and also we have to be
able to separate, we have to be able to
1834
01:33:14,517 -->
01:33:16,727
separate the technology from the products.
1835
01:33:16,757 -->
01:33:20,827
We have to be able to say like, "Yes,
scientists are using machine learning."
1836
01:33:21,377 -->
01:33:26,067
That's not the same as-- like, they're
not using ChatGPT to fold proteins.
1837
01:33:26,542 -->
01:33:29,952
those are different things, and we
can't just be like, "Well, it's all AI."
1838
01:33:30,923 -->
01:33:31,503
It's not.
1839
01:33:31,573 -->
01:33:33,233
It's, it's not all the same thing.
1840
01:33:33,313 -->
01:33:36,363
They're doing very different things
with very different technologies
1841
01:33:36,363 -->
01:33:41,563
that we've just arbitrarily given
this shared name to and whatever.
1842
01:33:41,983 -->
01:33:44,923
Uh, Maybe that name is
a useful shorthand, but,
1843
01:33:45,343 -->
01:33:47,353
like, one doesn't excuse the other.
1844
01:33:47,363 -->
01:33:51,823
We don't need, we don't need mass
surveillance to train a model
1845
01:33:51,843 -->
01:33:54,263
on proteins and learn something.
1846
01:33:54,273 -->
01:33:57,463
Like, that's-- these are different
things at different scales.
1847
01:33:57,763 -->
01:34:02,435
I mean, it's what I appreciated about
some of the, like Timnit Gebru and,
1848
01:34:02,485 -->
01:34:04,635
and Emily Bender and all of them.
1849
01:34:04,645 -->
01:34:06,915
They're, they were AI researchers.
1850
01:34:06,945 -->
01:34:08,835
They are AI researchers.
1851
01:34:08,895 -->
01:34:12,115
Their whole critique
was like drop the large.
1852
01:34:12,385 -->
01:34:14,395
The l- the large is unnecessary.
1853
01:34:14,465 -->
01:34:15,905
These tools are useful.
1854
01:34:16,285 -->
01:34:17,895
The large is unnecessary.
1855
01:34:17,915 -->
01:34:19,505
It's just surveillance.
1856
01:34:19,535 -->
01:34:21,945
It's just centralizing.
1857
01:34:22,023 -->
01:34:23,353
Brad: Centralization, yeah.
1858
01:34:23,474 -->
01:34:26,804
Miriam: And we don't, we don't need
to bring that along with the benefits
1859
01:34:26,804 -->
01:34:29,074
of, of the underlying technology.
1860
01:34:29,604 -->
01:34:32,794
And I find that a really useful…
I mean, I think also of like,
1861
01:34:32,994 -->
01:34:34,424
I connect all these things.
1862
01:34:34,424 -->
01:34:38,586
Like, I think about prison
abolitionists, you know, and the ar-
1863
01:34:38,606 -->
01:34:43,126
the argument is we should imagine a
world where we don't need prisons.
1864
01:34:43,636 -->
01:34:47,246
And then you might say like, "Okay, well,
there's some problems with that," right?
1865
01:34:47,896 -->
01:34:50,126
Um, like, what do we do about these cases?
1866
01:34:50,126 -->
01:34:55,666
And they're like, "Great, those are good
questions." But, like, what if we start
1867
01:34:55,666 -->
01:35:00,926
by imagining a world where we don't need
prisons, and then every decision we make
1868
01:35:01,346 -->
01:35:04,196
is attempting to move towards that world?
1869
01:35:04,826 -->
01:35:11,226
And, and we just slowly move towards
it in whatever small steps we can.
1870
01:35:11,866 -->
01:35:16,646
Uh, and we're not saying that we have to,
like, shut down every prison today and
1871
01:35:16,646 -->
01:35:19,166
everybody is just walking around suddenly.
1872
01:35:19,566 -->
01:35:23,776
Like, we understand that we need
other things to deal with conflict and
1873
01:35:24,186 -->
01:35:28,826
deal with people that do harm, and we
have to find other structures, right?
1874
01:35:28,826 -->
01:35:33,386
But, it's sort of a, in my mind,
it's this, it's this breaking down
1875
01:35:33,416 -->
01:35:37,856
of revolutionary versus knob…
What's the other term that people
1876
01:35:37,856 -->
01:35:39,676
use for just fiddling with the knobs
1877
01:35:39,887 -->
01:35:40,252
Brad: i-
1878
01:35:40,456 -->
01:35:40,826
Miriam: of
1879
01:35:41,022 -->
01:35:41,602
Brad: or, or like,
1880
01:35:41,636 -->
01:35:41,826
Miriam: or,
1881
01:35:42,002 -->
01:35:42,082
Brad: I
1882
01:35:42,206 -->
01:35:45,386
Miriam: or, or, Th-there's a,
there's other options here.
1883
01:35:45,396 -->
01:35:49,856
We can, we can imagine something
revolutionary, and we can just
1884
01:35:49,886 -->
01:35:53,806
make sure that every small step
we take is towards that goal.
1885
01:35:54,306 -->
01:35:59,376
And that's where I look at AI and I'm
like, it's, I, I don't see it as taking
1886
01:35:59,386 -->
01:36:01,346
steps towards a goal I believe in.
1887
01:36:01,793 -->
01:36:06,813
I see uses that could be
handy as side quests, sure.
1888
01:36:07,013 -->
01:36:10,103
I don't see it moving us towards
the goal I'm interested in.
1889
01:36:10,309 -->
01:36:14,059
I want to solve those problems
too, but, like, we're designers.
1890
01:36:14,099 -->
01:36:15,949
We can think of other ways to do it.
1891
01:36:16,105 -->
01:36:16,555
Brad: Yeah.
1892
01:36:16,615 -->
01:36:17,115
Yeah.
1893
01:36:17,829 -->
01:36:21,879
Miriam: we don't have to narrow down
and be like, "Well, somebody solved it.
1894
01:36:21,969 -->
01:36:22,869
Somebody solved it.
1895
01:36:22,879 -->
01:36:26,819
Now, now we just do the thing
that they, that they sold us.
1896
01:36:27,359 -->
01:36:28,029
It's done.
1897
01:36:28,089 -->
01:36:28,769
It's over
1898
01:36:29,226 -->
01:36:30,536
Brad: I love how you, you said it.
1899
01:36:30,576 -->
01:36:34,916
It's, it's that, and it-- to use, sorry,
like the, like corporate, like client
1900
01:36:34,916 -->
01:36:39,186
services speak, it's like you have
to plant that flag in the sand,
1901
01:36:39,286 -->
01:36:42,786
like off in the distance, and
then go, "We're going that way."
1902
01:36:43,116 -->
01:36:43,526
And
1903
01:36:43,748 -->
01:36:44,288
Miriam: Yeah
1904
01:36:44,476 -->
01:36:49,026
Brad: what you're describing is not
the job of like the AI companies,
1905
01:36:49,036 -->
01:36:52,786
although they very much should
have way more of a conscience.
1906
01:36:52,786 -->
01:36:57,836
But it's, th-this, this is where
politics and just like societal in
1907
01:36:57,836 -->
01:37:02,426
general, like, like society in
general, have to go, "Here's the
1908
01:37:02,426 -->
01:37:04,716
kind of future that we want to see."
1909
01:37:04,946 -->
01:37:05,186
Miriam: Right.
1910
01:37:05,386 -->
01:37:06,006
Right.
1911
01:37:06,146 -->
01:37:07,046
Brad: called leadership.
1912
01:37:07,056 -->
01:37:07,956
That's called vision.
1913
01:37:08,176 -->
01:37:08,476
Miriam: Yeah
1914
01:37:08,516 -->
01:37:12,776
Brad: like, here's what, here's
what a more just, a more humane,
1915
01:37:12,776 -->
01:37:14,856
a, a better world looks like.
1916
01:37:14,906 -->
01:37:15,516
And to paint
1917
01:37:15,662 -->
01:37:15,942
Miriam: Alright
1918
01:37:16,686 -->
01:37:21,346
Brad: and then you collectively
start taking steps towards that.
1919
01:37:21,386 -->
01:37:21,776
And then
1920
01:37:22,096 -->
01:37:22,456
Miriam: Yeah
1921
01:37:22,686 -->
01:37:25,326
Brad: there are, there are guardrails,
there are regulations, there are
1922
01:37:25,326 -->
01:37:28,756
rules, there are laws, there's are like
whatever, all of like those other things.
1923
01:37:28,756 -->
01:37:32,776
But, but more importantly, not-- forget
about like the laws and the punitive
1924
01:37:32,776 -->
01:37:38,846
side of it, but just the incentives and
the, the, the picture of, of a hope and
1925
01:37:38,856 -->
01:37:41,406
going, "Hey, it's better over here."
1926
01:37:41,646 -->
01:37:41,976
And that's
1927
01:37:41,976 -->
01:37:47,196
why I get so frustrated with
like, literally like any political
1928
01:37:47,196 -->
01:37:50,146
discussion because it's so devoid of
1929
01:37:50,428 -->
01:37:50,688
Miriam: Right
1930
01:37:50,816 -->
01:37:55,236
Brad: long-term vision, any long-term
thinking, any long-term like anything,
1931
01:37:55,716 -->
01:37:59,846
that it's just like, it's all just
so petty and so just like, what, how,
1932
01:37:59,866 -->
01:38:02,776
what mood did I wake-- It's,
it just feels so childish.
1933
01:38:02,886 -->
01:38:03,176
Miriam: and it's
1934
01:38:03,176 -->
01:38:03,566
so,
1935
01:38:04,016 -->
01:38:04,166
Brad: like,
1936
01:38:04,186 -->
01:38:05,086
where's the thing?
1937
01:38:05,126 -->
01:38:06,966
Like, where's the thing that just is like,
1938
01:38:07,271 -->
01:38:07,631
"
Miriam: Yeah.
1939
01:38:07,665 -->
01:38:07,915
Brad: at us.
1940
01:38:07,945 -->
01:38:12,265
We're the most advanced species
supposedly, that has all of
1941
01:38:12,265 -->
01:38:14,115
these materials in front of us.
1942
01:38:14,115 -->
01:38:20,290
We have nothing but and riches
and technologies and v-vehicles
1943
01:38:20,364 -->
01:38:21,504
Miriam: the far side of the moon.
1944
01:38:21,974 -->
01:38:22,994
Yeah Yeah, yeah.
1945
01:38:23,000 -->
01:38:23,220
Brad: are we
1946
01:38:23,454 -->
01:38:23,814
Miriam: Yeah,
1947
01:38:23,910 -->
01:38:24,100
Brad: are we
1948
01:38:24,504 -->
01:38:28,584
Miriam: but I think, I think part
of it is a, like, a fractioning of
1949
01:38:28,584 -->
01:38:33,524
us, and then, like, we don't see
our place in the power structure.
1950
01:38:33,904 -->
01:38:38,944
So then we go like, "Well, here's
the things I've got. How do I reduce
1951
01:38:38,944 -->
01:38:42,424
friction in my own life with the
tools that are in front of me?"
1952
01:38:43,024 -->
01:38:49,604
And I get that instinct, and also,
I think things keep getting worse
1953
01:38:49,664 -->
01:38:54,504
if we, if we're just all trying to
remove personal frictions without
1954
01:38:54,784 -->
01:38:56,514
accounting for the externalities.
1955
01:38:57,054 -->
01:39:03,064
Like, that, that just takes us constantly
downhill, and we don't see a way out
1956
01:39:03,504 -->
01:39:08,574
unless we, we have to envision a way
out, and we have to envision a world
1957
01:39:08,604 -->
01:39:11,724
where there is some friction in our
lives because that's part of what it
1958
01:39:11,724 -->
01:39:17,144
means to collaborate, and that's part of
what it means to be part of a society.
1959
01:39:17,164 -->
01:39:21,044
And I, I guess this is, you
know, trying to pull it all back
1960
01:39:21,044 -->
01:39:23,154
around to, to where we started.
1961
01:39:23,164 -->
01:39:27,124
Like, to me, that is the
collaborative thing, right?
1962
01:39:27,154 -->
01:39:30,214
It's that I couldn't build
these shows on my own.
1963
01:39:30,434 -->
01:39:32,674
I couldn't imagine them on my own.
1964
01:39:32,964 -->
01:39:38,224
What gets me excited about a
performance is when it's something
1965
01:39:38,224 -->
01:39:39,564
I couldn't have imagined.
1966
01:39:40,274 -->
01:39:47,124
Like, we got there by all of us imagining
different things and then figuring out how
1967
01:39:47,124 -->
01:39:53,554
they fit together and, and, like, building
something together and not just following
1968
01:39:53,554 -->
01:39:58,624
the rules or what was given to us, but,
like, each of us bringing our personal
1969
01:39:58,634 -->
01:40:02,104
wild selves and imagining something new.
1970
01:40:02,104 -->
01:40:04,104
And I'm like, "We can
do this with the world."
1971
01:40:04,454 -->
01:40:05,824
This is a thing we can do.
1972
01:40:05,834 -->
01:40:12,140
This is-- And this is specifically
supposed to be our expertise in tech.
1973
01:40:12,710 -->
01:40:15,710
This is supposed to be the
expertise that we bring, is
1974
01:40:15,710 -->
01:40:17,850
like, the world can be better.
1975
01:40:17,860 -->
01:40:22,490
We can imagine something better, and
we can not just accept what came, but
1976
01:40:22,520 -->
01:40:25,300
we can, we can invent something else.
1977
01:40:26,070 -->
01:40:31,840
And how is that industry looking at a
tool and going like, "Well, I don't know.
1978
01:40:32,210 -->
01:40:33,530
Guess we're stuck with it"?
1979
01:40:33,730 -->
01:40:35,270
What are we talking about?
1980
01:40:35,340 -->
01:40:36,810
Like, we're not stuck with it.
1981
01:40:36,990 -->
01:40:39,450
We know how to, we know
how to build tools too.
1982
01:40:40,077 -->
01:40:40,437
Brad: Yeah.
1983
01:40:40,463 -->
01:40:43,163
Miriam: can imagine better
tools, and we can build them.
1984
01:40:43,465 -->
01:40:47,705
So yeah, I don't get mad at people
sometimes using a chatbot or
1985
01:40:47,705 -->
01:40:49,915
whatever if they find it whatever.
1986
01:40:49,925 -->
01:40:52,845
I d- Like, that's not-- We're
not here for purity politics.
1987
01:40:53,305 -->
01:40:58,455
But I do get mad at developers
who act like we're not developers
1988
01:40:59,195 -->
01:41:04,825
who act like we have to accept
what was given to us as the truth.
1989
01:41:05,455 -->
01:41:09,575
I guess I'm a little-- I j-just--
It struck me, me and Sandra,
1990
01:41:09,585 -->
01:41:12,705
the Outbird, one of the Outbird
designers we went to a meetup.
1991
01:41:12,735 -->
01:41:16,155
This was years ago, and we walked
in a little bit late, and there
1992
01:41:16,155 -->
01:41:19,215
was a presentation happening, and
the person on stage was saying,
1993
01:41:19,415 -->
01:41:20,755
" Well, design has been solved.
1994
01:41:21,065 -->
01:41:25,725
Facebook solved it, so now we're just
rearranging the pieces." And I feel
1995
01:41:25,725 -->
01:41:29,055
like that's where we are as an industry,
is like we've accepted that there's
1996
01:41:29,065 -->
01:41:30,635
like a right, there's a right answer.
1997
01:41:30,645 -->
01:41:31,855
Somebody else figures it out.
1998
01:41:32,475 -->
01:41:38,015
It's backed by data, and I, I come in and
I fee-- I'm like, I think that data is,
1999
01:41:38,095 -->
01:41:40,355
I think that data is just some bullshit.
2000
01:41:40,555 -->
01:41:41,055
I think
2001
01:41:41,307 -->
01:41:41,577
Brad: Yeah
2002
01:41:41,665 -->
01:41:45,005
Miriam: somebody just walked
around with a tape measure and
2003
01:41:45,005 -->
01:41:46,345
then claimed that I should care.
2004
01:41:46,737 -->
01:41:49,057
and I, I just don't believe this.
2005
01:41:49,507 -->
01:41:52,197
I, I can't believe our
industry is acting like this
2006
01:41:52,684 -->
01:41:55,414
Brad: here's my attempt too
to pull all of this together.
2007
01:41:55,444 -->
01:42:00,704
I think that your How you framed
ability to sort of like teach and
2008
01:42:00,714 -->
01:42:05,734
facilitate and sort of ultimately
like empower other people to just like
2009
01:42:07,491 -->
01:42:13,221
the, the creative power and, you know,
agency that, that they have, that
2010
01:42:13,221 -->
01:42:15,712
is, that is really
that's the facilitation.
2011
01:42:16,542 -->
01:42:17,652
And, and that's, I think, like
2012
01:42:17,652 -->
01:42:22,602
what our, what our industry needs
right now is people like you and
2013
01:42:22,612 -->
01:42:27,632
hopefully I try to do my part to
like help people understand how
2014
01:42:27,632 -->
01:42:29,622
much power and agency they have,
2015
01:42:29,822 -->
01:42:30,202
Miriam: Right
2016
01:42:30,262 -->
01:42:33,652
Brad: have to just sort of like
accept what's handed to them.
2017
01:42:33,652 -->
01:42:35,812
It's like you're a creative professional.
2018
01:42:35,822 -->
01:42:37,032
Like you , you
2019
01:42:37,270 -->
01:42:37,750
Miriam: Yeah.
2020
01:42:37,762 -->
01:42:43,902
Brad: to, to imagine a different world
and that, and that we can like make
2021
01:42:43,952 -->
01:42:48,482
decisions and that you actually have…
When we talk about design having a seat
2022
01:42:48,482 -->
01:42:55,032
at the table, it's like you, you exercise
that by saying, "Hey, let's not do that.
2023
01:42:55,032 -->
01:42:59,492
Let's do this other thing i-instead."
Or, "What if we did this thing that
2024
01:42:59,622 -->
01:43:01,192
none of us have been thinking about?"
2025
01:43:01,192 -->
01:43:03,972
Or like, "What questions
aren't we answering?" Or like,
2026
01:43:04,008 -->
01:43:04,408
Miriam: Right.
2027
01:43:04,478 -->
01:43:04,908
Right
2028
01:43:04,942 -->
01:43:10,232
Brad: we have so much freedom
and agency and ability
2029
01:43:10,494 -->
01:43:10,834
Miriam: Right.
2030
01:43:11,052 -->
01:43:15,072
Brad: capacity, we just need to
start actually exercising it.
2031
01:43:15,092 -->
01:43:15,152
And
2032
01:43:15,152 -->
01:43:18,852
I think that that's, that's-- these
are the, the things that I, I hope,
2033
01:43:18,982 -->
01:43:23,822
like with this show and just like
beyond, I like w- I want more people
2034
01:43:23,832 -->
01:43:26,242
to understand that they have this
2035
01:43:26,304 -->
01:43:26,684
Miriam: Yeah
2036
01:43:26,832 -->
01:43:30,522
Brad: I, I'm sure you get, y-you get it
as well, just like you were describing
2037
01:43:30,522 -->
01:43:33,392
earlier, like the people who co-
approach you at the market saying like,
2038
01:43:33,392 -->
01:43:34,792
"Oh, I'm not creative like that," or
2039
01:43:34,888 -->
01:43:35,508
Miriam: Right, right
2040
01:43:36,212 -->
01:43:43,168
Brad: the only difference between and
them is that you're able to overcome
2041
01:43:43,168 -->
01:43:49,548
that, that like whatever weird external
voice, it-- that thing, "I can't do
2042
01:43:49,548 -->
01:43:52,208
that," and then you just do it anyways.
2043
01:43:52,228 -->
01:43:55,318
And wouldn't you know,
then you end up doing
2044
01:43:55,326 -->
01:43:56,316
Miriam: Then you can do it.
2045
01:43:56,998 -->
01:43:57,478
Brad: Yeah.
2046
01:43:57,588 -->
01:43:57,948
Yeah.
2047
01:43:58,158 -->
01:43:58,378
But,
2048
01:43:58,556 -->
01:43:58,886
Miriam: Yeah.
2049
01:43:58,978 -->
01:43:59,268
Brad: that
2050
01:43:59,316 -->
01:43:59,576
Miriam: Yeah
2051
01:43:59,688 -->
01:44:03,498
Brad: lesson, that same lesson that
comes to just like self-expression,
2052
01:44:03,498 -->
01:44:04,848
which is a great lesson in and
2053
01:44:04,968 -->
01:44:05,408
Miriam: Right
2054
01:44:06,058 -->
01:44:09,388
Brad: also applies to our ability to enact
2055
01:44:09,612 -->
01:44:09,902
Miriam: Yeah.
2056
01:44:10,332 -->
01:44:10,592
Yeah.
2057
01:44:11,078 -->
01:44:13,378
Brad: organizational
structures, within like weird
2058
01:44:13,378 -->
01:44:18,398
power dynamics, within our social groups,
within our families, within everything.
2059
01:44:18,398 -->
01:44:21,308
Like we are, we are-- You have you
2060
01:44:21,712 -->
01:44:22,472
Miriam: Yeah, you're
2061
01:44:22,508 -->
01:44:25,668
Brad: to, to sort of like
be directional in like
2062
01:44:25,818 -->
01:44:26,058
Miriam: yeah.
2063
01:44:26,058 -->
01:44:26,368
Yeah
2064
01:44:26,468 -->
01:44:28,958
Brad: If you're frustrated with
things, if you're just like,
2065
01:44:28,978 -->
01:44:30,778
"I, I'm scared, I'm not sure.
2066
01:44:30,778 -->
01:44:35,118
I d- if I speak up, if I raise my hand,
like I'm gonna get…" It's like we,
2067
01:44:35,128 -->
01:44:39,468
we have the ability to just say, "Hey,
maybe we should do it this other way."
2068
01:44:39,468 -->
01:44:40,138
And people go,
2069
01:44:40,182 -->
01:44:40,302
Miriam: Yeah.
2070
01:44:40,388 -->
01:44:40,718
Brad: right.
2071
01:44:40,918 -->
01:44:41,378
Okay.
2072
01:44:41,562 -->
01:44:42,282
Miriam: Yeah, totally.
2073
01:44:42,782 -->
01:44:43,242
Totally.
2074
01:44:43,392 -->
01:44:48,822
I think, yeah, I mean, I feel like, I
feel like that's maybe the central point
2075
01:44:48,822 -->
01:44:53,412
of my career is, like, you can-- I know,
I know sometimes it's gonna be harder.
2076
01:44:53,472 -->
01:44:56,882
You're gonna be picking the harder
path, but you can make it up.
2077
01:44:57,116 -->
01:44:58,236
You have agency.
2078
01:44:58,946 -->
01:45:00,536
You're allowed to take the harder path.
2079
01:45:00,736 -->
01:45:03,446
Sometimes it's really rewarding
to take the harder path.
2080
01:45:03,596 -->
01:45:07,806
Just avoiding friction is
not, is not the happy path.
2081
01:45:08,020 -->
01:45:09,230
Push, push on things.
2082
01:45:09,270 -->
01:45:10,220
Believe in things.
2083
01:45:11,016 -->
01:45:14,756
know the world that you want
and know the careers that you
2084
01:45:14,756 -->
01:45:17,546
want and claim your agency.
2085
01:45:17,734 -->
01:45:18,264
Brad: Hell yeah.
2086
01:45:18,544 -->
01:45:21,684
That's a great way, that's a great
way, that's a great exclamation
2087
01:45:21,684 -->
01:45:23,594
point to, to end it on, I think.
2088
01:45:23,594 -->
01:45:28,004
So, we did talk at least a little
bit about music through the lens
2089
01:45:28,044 -->
01:45:31,314
of, of your theater company,
but what, what music do you
2090
01:45:31,314 -->
01:45:33,034
want more people to know about?
2091
01:45:33,234 -->
01:45:34,484
Miriam: Yeah, that was
an interesting question.
2092
01:45:34,594 -->
01:45:37,924
I haven't been listening to a
lot of really new music lately.
2093
01:45:37,954 -->
01:45:41,464
Like, I haven't been discovering
things except, like, old things, like
2094
01:45:41,664 -->
01:45:46,004
discovering the Funkadelics, and you're
like, "More people don't need to know
2095
01:45:46,004 -->
01:45:49,484
about the Funkadelics." Th- the plenty
of people know about them or whatever.
2096
01:45:49,784 -->
01:45:51,754
So that's not my answer.
2097
01:45:51,864 -->
01:45:54,614
There's lots of bands like that,
that I'm like, "Oh, well, I
2098
01:45:54,614 -->
01:45:58,574
discovered them recently," but
they're not recent discoveries.
2099
01:45:58,774 -->
01:46:00,944
And I didn't discover them that recently.
2100
01:46:01,034 -->
01:46:01,344
But,
2101
01:46:01,428 -->
01:46:03,258
Brad: should listen to P-Funk though, so
2102
01:46:03,278 -->
01:46:04,118
just straight up.
2103
01:46:04,294 -->
01:46:04,774
Miriam: yeah,
2104
01:46:04,868 -->
01:46:05,108
Brad: me.
2105
01:46:05,394 -->
01:46:08,264
Miriam: just Megabrain, Megabrain,
you start there and work your way out.
2106
01:46:08,517 -->
01:46:11,907
yeah, so then I was thinking, "Well,
I've got some friends that I think
2107
01:46:11,907 -->
01:46:14,837
make really excellent music, so
you should maybe check them out."
2108
01:46:14,867 -->
01:46:18,037
I think particularly Emily Rogers.
2109
01:46:18,537 -->
01:46:19,907
Check out Emily Rogers.
2110
01:46:20,077 -->
01:46:22,937
Haunting just, just excellent.
2111
01:46:23,417 -->
01:46:24,197
But yeah
2112
01:46:24,667 -->
01:46:25,227
Brad: What, like
2113
01:46:25,367 -->
01:46:26,717
Miriam: not cheerful.
2114
01:46:27,387 -->
01:46:27,677
Brad: Nah.
2115
01:46:27,867 -->
01:46:31,397
Miriam: I mean, they're just, they're
just, uh… She has this beautiful
2116
01:46:31,397 -->
01:46:36,297
voice, and she's an excellent guitarist,
and I think it's maybe her partner
2117
01:46:36,297 -->
01:46:39,427
that's mainly playing with her and
a, a few other people 'cause there's
2118
01:46:39,427 -->
01:46:41,487
a, there's drums and other stuff.
2119
01:46:41,997 -->
01:46:46,917
yeah, it's these-- it's just sort
of beautiful, haunting, sad songs.
2120
01:46:47,561 -->
01:46:50,081
I knew her in college, high
school and college, and she
2121
01:46:50,081 -->
01:46:52,561
was playing, like, folk music.
2122
01:46:52,611 -->
01:46:56,561
Like, one person with an acoustic guitar,
folk music, pretty straightforward,
2123
01:46:56,571 -->
01:47:00,121
and I was like, "Sure, you got a
great voice. You're g- you're good."
2124
01:47:00,521 -->
01:47:04,321
And then, like, I heard her several
years later putting out these just
2125
01:47:05,011 -->
01:47:11,441
amazing haunting songs that just
sounded n- nothing like… I mean, like,
2126
01:47:11,491 -->
01:47:16,971
clearly inspired by her, her experience
and her history and whatever, but
2127
01:47:17,185 -->
01:47:17,825
Brad: Amazing.
2128
01:47:17,931 -->
01:47:19,301
Miriam: a, a unique voice.
2129
01:47:19,431 -->
01:47:22,711
So I-- Yeah, check out,
check out Emily Rogers.
2130
01:47:22,991 -->
01:47:23,691
She's great
2131
01:47:23,891 -->
01:47:24,471
Brad: I love it.
2132
01:47:24,551 -->
01:47:25,061
I love it.
2133
01:47:25,121 -->
01:47:25,861
Amazing.
2134
01:47:25,971 -->
01:47:26,871
Miriam: playing around Pittsburgh.
2135
01:47:26,911 -->
01:47:29,501
She's in Pittsburgh, so maybe
2136
01:47:29,715 -->
01:47:31,955
Brad: ba- Yeah, I was gonna
ask 'cause, like, is she,
2137
01:47:31,971 -->
01:47:32,601
Miriam: Yeah.
2138
01:47:33,205 -->
01:47:33,375
Brad: Is
2139
01:47:33,421 -->
01:47:35,741
Miriam: Last I talked to
her, she was in Pittsburgh.
2140
01:47:35,811 -->
01:47:38,381
I don't know of her moving
out of Pittsburgh, so
2141
01:47:38,711 -->
01:47:39,391
Brad: amazing.
2142
01:47:39,391 -->
01:47:39,681
Well,
2143
01:47:39,721 -->
01:47:40,721
Miriam: she's still there
2144
01:47:41,371 -->
01:47:42,871
Brad: Well, hell yeah.
2145
01:47:42,981 -->
01:47:44,521
I will definitely-- I'm going to
2146
01:47:44,607 -->
01:47:45,507
Miriam: Yeah.
2147
01:47:45,831 -->
01:47:49,101
Brad: also trying to like bring
together like in like one big
2148
01:47:49,101 -->
01:47:50,591
like kinda playlist and stuff for
2149
01:47:50,623 -->
01:47:50,913
Miriam: yeah.
2150
01:47:50,913 -->
01:47:51,213
yeah.
2151
01:47:51,263 -->
01:47:51,863
Oh, cool
2152
01:47:52,321 -->
01:47:54,371
Brad: Well, well, yeah,
but she's local to me.
2153
01:47:54,371 -->
01:47:57,321
I, I was like, "Oh, is
she in Denver?" But, so it
2154
01:47:57,503 -->
01:47:58,373
Miriam: Yeah, I was just looking.
2155
01:47:58,373 -->
01:48:03,993
I d- I don't see any super recent albums
since, like, 2021, so I, I haven't heard
2156
01:48:03,993 -->
01:48:05,463
what she's doing in the last couple years.
2157
01:48:05,503 -->
01:48:07,143
But I really love her stuff
2158
01:48:07,669 -->
01:48:08,289
Brad: Amazing.
2159
01:48:08,399 -->
01:48:08,959
Amazing.
2160
01:48:09,279 -->
01:48:13,929
And where can people follow along
with, with you and, and your work and
2161
01:48:14,179 -->
01:48:16,479
across all of your different creative
2162
01:48:16,681 -->
01:48:17,861
Miriam: Yeah, that's a hard question.
2163
01:48:18,061 -->
01:48:23,331
I mean, you know, uh, Oddbird for web
development, uh, that's oddbird.net,
2164
01:48:23,361 -->
01:48:29,221
and grapefruitlab.com is the theater
company, uh, including our prison work.
2165
01:48:29,610 -->
01:48:34,610
I have miriamsuzanne.com, which I
every once in a while try to remember
2166
01:48:34,610 -->
01:48:38,040
to post something but I'm distracted
by a lot of different things.
2167
01:48:38,540 -->
01:48:40,750
Teacup Gorilla is the band.
2168
01:48:41,040 -->
01:48:44,290
and to me they're all the
same, and they all, they all
2169
01:48:44,320 -->
01:48:46,030
integrate, they all play together.
2170
01:48:47,303 -->
01:48:47,323
Brad: Yeah.
2171
01:48:47,323 -->
01:48:49,883
It's, it's collectively your,
your authentic self, so.
2172
01:48:50,409 -->
01:48:51,439
Miriam: Yeah, exactly
2173
01:48:51,623 -->
01:48:54,943
Brad: but then also quick plug
because, like, we've been chatting
2174
01:48:54,943 -->
01:48:59,513
a little bit 'cause you're also,
you created some courses some CSS
2175
01:48:59,543 -->
01:49:01,573
courses, so I wanna plug that too
2176
01:49:02,205 -->
01:49:07,025
Miriam: Yeah, so courses.oddbird.net, and
it's linked from the Oddbird website, too.
2177
01:49:07,085 -->
01:49:09,375
But I have a Poetic CSS course.
2178
01:49:09,455 -->
01:49:11,175
I'm still in the middle of filming it.
2179
01:49:11,575 -->
01:49:15,385
I-it's-- yeah, again, it's
that, like, that teaching thing.
2180
01:49:15,425 -->
01:49:18,525
I just find it so exciting
to, yeah, figure out how to
2181
01:49:18,525 -->
01:49:20,465
explain these concepts in CSS.
2182
01:49:20,495 -->
01:49:25,998
It's really like whether you're writing
the CSS or reviewing the CSS, a lot of
2183
01:49:26,008 -->
01:49:31,518
people are out there trying to cobble
together, like, these independent
2184
01:49:31,568 -->
01:49:33,568
properties that they've heard of, right?
2185
01:49:33,578 -->
01:49:38,868
And every article covers one property,
and you do your best to sort of guess
2186
01:49:38,868 -->
01:49:40,178
how they're all gonna fit together.
2187
01:49:40,178 -->
01:49:40,888
And this course
2188
01:49:40,964 -->
01:49:40,974
Brad: Mm-hmm.
2189
01:49:41,228 -->
01:49:42,878
Miriam: is about how
they all fit together.
2190
01:49:43,308 -->
01:49:46,368
It's really-- it's like
a systems view of CSS.
2191
01:49:46,388 -->
01:49:47,568
How was it designed?
2192
01:49:47,845 -->
01:49:52,295
how-- what is the, the mental model
that the working group has of CSS?
2193
01:49:52,325 -->
01:49:58,365
Like, what's-- how do you view CSS
as a consistent whole, so you're not
2194
01:49:58,425 -->
01:50:01,335
guessing at properties to throw in?
2195
01:50:01,955 -->
01:50:07,015
You understand what the
system is how things interact.
2196
01:50:07,485 -->
01:50:09,615
Like CSS has timing to it.
2197
01:50:09,665 -->
01:50:14,255
Like, things happen before other
things and if you understand those
2198
01:50:14,265 -->
01:50:20,086
timings, a lot of the day-to-day
gotchas just become like, oh, that's
2199
01:50:20,086 -->
01:50:26,508
just computed values inherit, and
they inherit before variables resolve.
2200
01:50:26,588 -->
01:50:31,858
And if we understand the order that these
things happen and how it's all supposed
2201
01:50:31,858 -->
01:50:37,858
to work as a system, we don't have to, we
don't have to guess over and over until
2202
01:50:37,858 -->
01:50:39,898
something seems to work in our browser.
2203
01:50:40,750 -->
01:50:42,980
I'm not teaching you every
word in the dictionary.
2204
01:50:43,020 -->
01:50:50,080
I'm teaching you how to structure a
poem how to use language that you need
2205
01:50:50,448 -->
01:50:53,108
Brad: I, I've learned so
much about CSS from you.
2206
01:50:53,208 -->
01:50:57,518
So it's like, what's weird, what's weird
to say is, like, I've been writing CSS
2207
01:50:57,528 -->
01:51:00,268
for more than half of my life, and so
2208
01:51:00,882 -->
01:51:01,262
Miriam: She's…
2209
01:51:01,488 -->
01:51:01,888
Brad: who I,
2210
01:51:02,372 -->
01:51:03,432
Miriam: Me too, probably.
2211
01:51:03,782 -->
01:51:04,012
Yeah.
2212
01:51:04,228 -->
01:51:04,948
Brad: is it weird?
2213
01:51:05,338 -->
01:51:08,608
But I'm like, I've had
to unlearn a bunch of
2214
01:51:08,744 -->
01:51:09,124
Miriam: Ja
2215
01:51:09,658 -->
01:51:14,628
Brad: and, and I, I owe a lot to you
for kinda like dismantling a lot of
2216
01:51:14,628 -->
01:51:19,188
like the, the kind of like old ways
of doing things, and it's like through
2217
01:51:19,188 -->
01:51:22,588
your writing and your conference talks
and now your courses, it's like I'm,
2218
01:51:22,668 -->
01:51:27,558
I'm able to kinda be like, "Oh, okay,
this is gonna go easier because this,
2219
01:51:27,718 -->
01:51:30,608
this language has come such a long way."
2220
01:51:30,864 -->
01:51:31,264
Miriam: Right
2221
01:51:31,338 -->
01:51:34,408
Brad: so like I would recommend it
for people like, like just learning
2222
01:51:34,408 -->
01:51:36,088
it, like, and to like learn it
2223
01:51:36,108 -->
01:51:37,828
right, kinda right out of the gate.
2224
01:51:38,148 -->
01:51:41,648
But like for me, old dogs learning
new tricks are like just like
2225
01:51:41,898 -->
01:51:46,668
more with the grain of how
the stuff ought to be written.
2226
01:51:47,108 -->
01:51:51,338
Like, a-and that's, that's, I think,
like, a real testament to you kinda like
2227
01:51:51,338 -->
01:51:55,458
straddling that line between being able
to, like, operate at that, like, spec
2228
01:51:55,458 -->
01:51:57,388
level, but also being a practitioner.
2229
01:51:57,388 -->
01:51:58,408
So, so thank you.
2230
01:51:58,458 -->
01:52:02,078
And, and everyone, you should
definitely buy these courses.
2231
01:52:02,824 -->
01:52:03,594
Miriam: Please do.
2232
01:52:03,594 -->
01:52:07,104
I would love to be able to make more,
and it's a, it's a scary time out
2233
01:52:07,104 -->
01:52:08,894
there for people creating courses.
2234
01:52:09,024 -->
01:52:11,904
So if it's something you're
interested in, it's something
2235
01:52:11,904 -->
01:52:14,194
I'm excited to help you learn.
2236
01:52:14,374 -->
01:52:17,874
And we've got, like, a Discord
channel where you can ask questions.
2237
01:52:18,314 -->
01:52:19,704
Come to me if you have questions.
2238
01:52:19,754 -->
01:52:20,654
That's great.
2239
01:52:21,084 -->
01:52:25,374
I just want, I want, I want people not to
be scared of CSS in the way that I think
2240
01:52:25,374 -->
01:52:27,454
a lot of people have been scared of CSS.
2241
01:52:27,874 -->
01:52:29,884
I want you to know that
it's really learnable.
2242
01:52:30,274 -->
01:52:33,274
It's really manageable if
you learn how to manage it.
2243
01:52:33,724 -->
01:52:36,954
And, and there's sort of,
there's no, there's no shortcuts.
2244
01:52:37,144 -->
01:52:41,834
Like, I think that's, you know, part
of this conversation, is that, like,
2245
01:52:41,834 -->
01:52:46,314
everybody's looking for shortcuts, and I
just don't believe that shortcuts exist.
2246
01:52:46,334 -->
01:52:49,414
So, like, if you want a garden without
weeds, you have to weed the garden.
2247
01:52:49,974 -->
01:52:51,704
That's the, that's how you get there.
2248
01:52:51,814 -->
01:52:54,424
And the same is true with
CSS or JavaScript or Python
2249
01:52:54,434 -->
01:52:55,574
or whatever you're writing.
2250
01:52:56,074 -->
01:52:59,744
You have to learn, learn how to do it and
2251
01:52:59,744 -->
01:53:01,114
then, and then you can.
2252
01:53:01,574 -->
01:53:03,894
But, uh, yeah, and I'm
excited down the road.
2253
01:53:03,924 -->
01:53:06,534
Like, if this one goes well,
I'd be excited to dive into,
2254
01:53:06,534 -->
01:53:07,904
like, more narrow topics.
2255
01:53:08,304 -->
01:53:11,794
But I sort of realized, like, if I do a
layout course, I still need to teach you
2256
01:53:11,794 -->
01:53:16,684
first how it all fits together, and if
I do an animation course, I still have
2257
01:53:16,684 -->
01:53:17,944
to teach you how it all fits together.
2258
01:53:17,944 -->
01:53:20,954
If I do a colors course, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
2259
01:53:20,964 -->
01:53:22,964
So, I wanted this one out first.
2260
01:53:22,964 -->
01:53:26,514
I wanted to answer the question,
like, how does it all, how does
2261
01:53:26,514 -->
01:53:27,704
it all… What's the system?
2262
01:53:27,704 -->
01:53:28,404
How do we build?
2263
01:53:28,804 -->
01:53:32,074
What's the systems built into it, and
then how do we build systems around it?
2264
01:53:32,394 -->
01:53:34,614
Naming and organizing
conventions, all that.
2265
01:53:34,764 -->
01:53:35,454
And then, yeah.
2266
01:53:35,674 -->
01:53:39,014
Yeah, if enough of you buy this one,
I get to make another one that's,
2267
01:53:39,014 -->
01:53:41,394
like, grids or something, you know?
2268
01:53:42,114 -->
01:53:47,244
Like, when to use grid versus Flexbox
or those sorts of more in the, in the
2269
01:53:47,244 -->
01:53:49,494
weeds of particular features courses.
2270
01:53:49,494 -->
01:53:50,504
I would love to do that.
2271
01:53:50,920 -->
01:53:51,250
Brad: Yeah.
2272
01:53:51,400 -->
01:53:52,040
Amazing.
2273
01:53:52,330 -->
01:53:52,970
Amazing.
2274
01:53:52,990 -->
01:53:54,640
Well, well, thank you.
2275
01:53:54,690 -->
01:53:55,400
Thanks again
2276
01:53:55,640 -->
01:53:55,870
Miriam: Yeah.
2277
01:53:55,870 -->
01:53:56,500
Thank you
2278
01:53:56,550 -->
01:53:57,230
Brad: all of this.
2279
01:53:57,240 -->
01:53:58,920
So, yeah, until next time.
2280
01:53:58,920 -->
01:54:01,070
Hopefully I get to see you in person soon.
2281
01:54:01,070 -->
01:54:01,240
It's
2282
01:54:01,358 -->
01:54:02,258
Miriam: Yeah, that'd be great
2283
01:54:02,320 -->
01:54:03,180
Brad: but all right.
2284
01:54:03,250 -->
01:54:03,960
Well, take care.
2285
01:54:03,960 -->
01:54:04,660
Thanks so much for
2286
01:54:04,816 -->
01:54:05,156
Miriam: All right.
2287
01:54:05,250 -->
01:54:06,330
Brad: thanks everybody for listening
2288
01:54:06,999 -->
01:54:07,579
Miriam: Thank you
