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Gene Liverman: Hello everyone
and welcome to the Volunteer
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Technologist podcast. Here we
take a look at the different
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ways that people who are
technically inclined volunteer
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outside of their primary job.
Today I'm joined by Chris Miller
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and we're going to talk about
mentoring both inside and
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outside the technical community.
How are you doing today, Chris?
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I'm doing real well, Gene.
Thanks for having me on. I
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appreciate you taking the time
to talk to us and share your
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experience. It sounds like
you've been doing a good bit of
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mentoring across your career and
I'm interested to hear a little
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more about that. Yeah, well.
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Chris Miller: I find that it's
good to give back. I've been at
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this about 27 years now and I'm
always excited by watching new
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developers get started, no
matter where they're getting
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started. I work primarily in
development, which is not to
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discount ops or anything like
that, but watching new
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developers come into the field
and try to help them along and
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maybe give them a leg up where I
wish I would have had one has
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always been a big part of it,
but also helping them with
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making their way through a
business situation because it's
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different. Coders talk
differently to one another than
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they do when they talk to the
business or the community stuff.
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It's really rich territory but
at the end it also keeps me in
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touch with new things. You can
get frozen as you move along in
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your career and it's always good
to hear from other people,
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other perspectives. I learn as
much as they do.
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Gene Liverman: That's awesome. I
guess I should probably back up
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just a minute and have you
introduce yourself a little bit
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and let people know who you are.
I forget sometimes that I've
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been reading up on the people
that I chat with, but the people
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listening probably don't really
know who you are.
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Chris Miller: Probably not.
That's okay, I am not a famous
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person. My name is Chris Miller.
I live in Cleveland, Ohio. I
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got started back in 94, 95. If
you want to go all the way back,
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it was 87 on a bulletin board
when.
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Gene Liverman: I was 16.
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Chris Miller: Nice, give a
little bit of old school cred. I
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got my start. I worked at the
very first online bookstore
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Before Amazon. In Cleveland
there was a site called Book
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Stacks Unlimited. We were doing
business over telnet in 1992. I
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remember the day Amazon got
started and we were all like
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what the hell is this? I got
started there. I had worked on
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an English degree in college but
was looking for work In those
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early days of the web. They
would take anybody who knew a
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little bit of HTML, which I did.
I got started there and then
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moved into some consulting and
learned more development and
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more development and had some
really good mentors along the
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way, which is you'll find a
theme there.
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Gene Liverman: Makes M all the
difference in the world.
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Chris Miller: Exactly. I've
worked for agencies. I've worked
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for consulting firms. I did
some time at a startup out in
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California. I've done big
corporate work. Now I'm actually
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working for my local park
system as their website. I've
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done management. I did about 15
years of development management
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and about 15 years of coding.
That doesn't add up to 27, but
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you take the point. It's fuzzy
math. I guess the thing that I
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would hang my hat on, besides
the mentoring I've done, are
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really two things. Back in 2005,
when podcasting became a thing,
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I worked with a couple of guys.
One guy named Evo Terra,
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another one named Team Morris.
We put together a website for
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serializing audiobooks via
podcasts. It was called
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pottyobookscom. Evo was still
out there. He's doing his thing.
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As a matter of fact, I just
started working with him on
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another project but at the time
. In those early days it was the
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only way you could get books in
order, because when you podcast
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you're always going to get the
most recent chapter, not the
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first chapter. I built an engine
that would allow people to get
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things on their schedule. Any
donations went to the authors.
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75% of them went to the authors.
It had a really good run. It
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lasted about 12 years, I think.
Then podcasting, matured Audible
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, ate the market. All of that
that was really great. These
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days I'm most proud of I do a
little bit. I do some volunteer
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moderating on Fosstodon, the
Mastodon instance. I'm always
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excited by the Fediverse. It
reminds me a lot of the old days
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of the web. I'm sure maybe you
feel that way, a lot of folks
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from my generation. It reminds
them of the old days of the web.
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Again, it's that open source
community that really inspires
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me. I enjoy being a part of that
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Gene Liverman: To bring us back
to being fully on topic, how
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have you applied that mentoring
throughout your career? I take
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that you've done a good bit of
work helping with some of the
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developers and stuff of that
nature.
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Chris Miller: When I moved into
management, I did it because I
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was getting bored with the code
problems I was solving. I found
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that I really enjoyed helping
other people work through those
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issues and clearing the path.
Mentoring became a big part of
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just the daily gig, which I
really enjoyed. Sometimes I was
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a better mentor than others.
Mentors have got to learn too
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that eventually, working with
people at my day job eventually
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became working with a boot camp
here in Cleveland and going in
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and helping people with Do mock
interviews. These folks, coming
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out of the Java or C-Sharp boot
camp that they were going
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through for 16 weeks, would know
what to expect when they're
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walking into an interview what
people are going to expect of
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them. It became a soup to nuts.
Here's how you get started.
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Here's how you continue. Then,
for some people that decided to
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move up in management, it was
management. Mentoring about. The
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tech is still important, but
helping people learn how to
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communicate and how to speak to
business people it's no secret
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that a lot of us techies are
fairly socially awkward or
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anxious or something. Helping
people through those situations
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so that they can succeed and
other people can see how good
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they are at what they do that
was a lot of it. I want each and
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every developer out there to
shine. Everybody is pretty
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brilliant when you get down to
it when you're working in this
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field, yeah, so it's a broad
spectrum, it spans about 15
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years of work, and it was always
something that just kind of
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came along with the job, because
I have known people who have
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had very bad managers and I have
known people who have had to
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work their way up trying to
figure it out, and in some ways
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I had a little bit of that at
the beginning and it seems to me
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that it is a far better thing
to help someone along, to reach
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and help them, and you change
someone's life, though
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Absolutely, then to just pretend
it's Thunderdome and two people
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enter and one person leaves.
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Gene Liverman: One of my
favorite managers told me that
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if he had done his job right,
more than one person on his team
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would be perfectly capable and
willing to take his job.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely.
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Gene Liverman: One of his goals
was to basically develop
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somebody so that they had the
capability to be his replacement
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if they so chose.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely, and
having them know that A lot of
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people have the skills and just
don't know that they have it. So
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I don't like the word
empowering because it's such a
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buzzword, but in some cases it's
appropriate. But when someone
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knows their own competence and
is, if not comfortable, then
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certainly able to navigate those
waters, I think it goes a long,
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long way. And confident
technology people are
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desperately needed as a
counterbalance to some of the
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insanity we see in the business
world. And that's a whole topic
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and I'll try not to dip my toe
too far into that. But rational
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thought is often a premium.
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Gene Liverman: Yes, I know that,
for me, having people who are
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willing to mentor me and that
being combined with being in the
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right place at the right time
which sometimes it waits to just
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luck of the draw has really
facilitated me to do most of the
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things that I do today, and
it's always nice to see and hear
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about how other people are
filling those roles of mentoring
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.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely. I used
to really enjoy. I used to go
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to there's a local thing called
Py Ohio, where I live in Ohio,
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and PyCon. I was involved with
the Python community sparingly
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but I had some friends that were
very deep into it and I used to
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love going to those conventions
because it wasn't networking,
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it was meeting people and you
would meet people who would
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mentor you for an hour and it
would be an amazing experience
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and I have been mentored by
developers older than me,
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developers younger than me, all
different shape sizes, and it
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really broadens your perspective
. It makes you think in
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different ways and you need that
because in our industry that
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changes so quickly and yet
doesn't change at all. It's
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really important to keep your
mind fresh.
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Gene Liverman: Yes. And pliable,
very much so, and it's also
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really important to learn how to
communicate what you've done.
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I've had some co-workers in the
past that one of my personal
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mentor and goals has been to
help them. Help other people
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know how good they are at what
they do, because some of them
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have been incredibly brilliant
but have fit into that bucket of
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people that you described
earlier either a little bit
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awkward, or they feel like they
have imposter syndrome or any of
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the other varieties of things
that make them not speak up, and
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because people don't hear what
they're doing, they assume
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they're not doing, which
couldn't be farther from the
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truth.
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Chris Miller: I think in our
profession it is. One of the
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pitfalls is we only see the
flaws and we don't enjoy our
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victories very much and we
certainly don't hang our medals
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on the wall, and maybe we should
. Maybe a little trophy case is
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a good thing. Some achievements,
it's not a bad way to go. But
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you're right, learning how to
communicate those to people who
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don't understand the technology,
learning to communicate with
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non-technical people is
absolutely essential if you're
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moving into certain parts of
your career and it's hard
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because they don't think the way
we do and I'm not saying they
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don't think, I'm not asking
aspersions, but they have a
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different set of priorities and
a different way of thinking
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about things Well.
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Gene Liverman: A lot of times
your customer be it an internal
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customer or a paying customer,
or the group that you're
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volunteering for, whoever you're
interfacing with as your
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customer a lot of times the
reason that they want you to do
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your thing is because they don't
understand it. But you've got
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to be able to communicate with
them in terms that they
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understand so that you can make
sure you're actually doing the
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right thing. Let them know what
you need to know and learn what
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it is that they need you to know
. That translating techie to
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non-techie and from non-techie
into techie is incredibly
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important for just determining
requirements for a project.
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Chris Miller: Yeah, and building
a relationship with that client
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, customer person, because they
have to trust you. And a lot of
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people don't trust us. People
don't trust what they don't
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understand. And if we start
talking in TLA's and XTLA's and
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all of our domain-specific
language which works for us
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because we know what we're
talking about, it'd be the same
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as if you walked into an
accounting meeting and they
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started spinning up all of their
lingo that you don't understand
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and you would feel awkward and
untrusting. And I think a lot of
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us may feel a lot more curious
than maybe. I think that's a
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defining trait of a lot of
technologists is we're curious
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so we're willing to go learn
that, but a lot of folks on the
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other side are not. That's not
what they do and that's not what
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they're interested in.
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Gene Liverman: And that's OK,
that's OK.
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Chris Miller: That's not their
role. I know that sounds a
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little patronizing and I
apologize, but I'm trying to
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make space in the world for
non-techies, right.
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Gene Liverman: When I did help
desk support for a while,
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specifically in-user support,
and I would tell people all the
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time that If everybody knew how
to do all the same things it'd
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be really boring. I'm really
good at what I do and in this
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particular case I was on a
university campus. I don't know
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90% of what the professors and
administrative staff that I'm
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helping fix their technology. I
don't understand all the stuff
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they do, any more than they
understand what I do, but I
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learned how to communicate with
them and we developed that
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mutual trust between each other
and I trusted they know what
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they're talking about and they
would trust that I know what I'm
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talking about and the two of us
together could get the whole
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job done. But either one of us
by ourselves couldn't get the
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whole process done. Like I can
put a computer in a classroom
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and I can set up a lab, but I
can't teach the kids to use it,
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at least not at that time.
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Chris Miller: No, you're
absolutely right and you know.
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Understanding that, you know it
all comes together as a team is
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really important. And there's
another side to that, which is
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the arrogance of the techie and
the arrogance of the which is
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the oh, everyone else is an
idiot and I could run the
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business better than all of them
and if that were true, you
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would be running your own
business instead of working. Yes
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, and so that I saw a very funny
video by Jeff the guy who runs
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guy who runs fireshipio, and he
said you know, developers only
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have two paths imposter syndrome
or megalomania. And, and you
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know I laugh because, yeah, I
switch back and forth between
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that and I think everybody does.
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Gene Liverman: I think there's a
healthy balance in the middle
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there somewhere.
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Chris Miller: Exactly, exactly.
So you know. That is also an
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important part of mentoring is
being able to say to someone
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well, slow your roll a little
bit. You're smart and that's
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great, but smart in this arena
doesn't mean smart at all arenas
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.
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Gene Liverman: What are some
ways that you have found that
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you can communicate some of
these topics that you want to
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mentor people on to, like how do
you broach those topics with
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the people who need to hear them
? So like at a boot camp?
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Obviously they're there to learn
, they're probably already
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really receptive to a lot of
this, but in a lot of other
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cases I'm imagining that there's
some hey, I think you could
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probably stand to hear this,
like how do you, how do you go
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about starting that mentoring
relationship and getting kind of
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getting things going?
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Chris Miller: You've got to
build the trust first. You've
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got to have a relationship. You
can't lead in with like, if I,
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you know, if I took you aside at
work and say, hey, dude, don't
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do this, you're never going to,
and you know why would you? Just
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, you know, Fair point, you
don't have that relationship,
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you don't have that trust. So
you've got to. You've got to
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build that first, and I don't
mean like in a manipulative way,
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but as two people having a
conversation, with different
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experiences and who are
definitely invested in one
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another's well-being. It's only
after that that you could say,
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hey, I noticed you did this
thing. Why did you do that thing
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? What were you trying to get to
? Because here's how it came off
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in the room and here's how
people reacted. Was that the
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desired intent? There's a a
Socratic method to it of asking
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the questions and, again, it's
to get people reflecting on what
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they're doing, Because in the
thick of it, you don't have time
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for that. But it's only through
that kind of reflection that I
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think we learn about who we are
and about what we do wrong. I
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had a mentor come to me once and
said you know, I think you
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thought you were being funny,
but it didn't play well. You got
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to read the room and here's how
you can do that and and he was
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absolutely right, because I
noticed every you know I use
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humor when I'm nervous and it
was all falling flat on me and
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that's normally how I win the
crowd over and it wasn't winning
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anybody over. So, you know, I
think that's the main technique
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is is helping people after after
you have some trust and some
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relationship to find their blind
spots and help them reflect
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upon them. There's no, you can't
just flip a switch for a habit
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that you've had for a long time,
or especially a defense
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mechanism, but you can learn to
recognize it and, hopefully,
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plan for it. So I think I think
that's the key.
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Gene Liverman: You can learn
some self-awareness too. That
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will help you see it in yourself
when it happens. It doesn't
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always help with prevention, but
it does make you aware enough
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that, hopefully, most people
will become humble enough to be
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like wait a minute. You know, I
don't think that came off the
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way I meant for it too, or you
know what? That was a little
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harsher than I intended. Let me
back up, I apologize and then
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proceed on with what needs to be
done. You hit on a good word
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there humble humility.
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Chris Miller: That has to be a
part of our practice. Just
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because we know a lot about a
thing doesn't mean we know a lot
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about everything, and it
doesn't give us the right to run
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roughshod over people. I have
seen people who were absolutely
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correct speak up in ways that
completely undermined the
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argument and I know that wasn't
their intent. But they think
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they're speaking truth to power
when really what they're doing
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is denigrating someone on their
own team, and that erodes trust.
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You need that trust. If you're
going to work together, you have
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to be able to rely on one
another. Presentation is almost
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as important as the information
being presented.
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Gene Liverman: I mean look at
all the various ways we consume
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information. Now, presentation
is key to getting us to pay
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attention.
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Chris Miller: Yeah, absolutely,
when you have the attention to
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do so, and that's a whole other
topic of conversation. Yes, it
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is. Cost of task switching
attention to the other Cost of
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task, switching, attention
deficit, all of that there's a
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lot of. I have a friend who you
may talk to one of these days,
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tom Gideon. He had a podcast
called the Command where he
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talked about the practice and
profession of coding, and the
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practice of this is I mean it
comes off sounding like a Zen
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master or a guru or something,
but there is a craftsmanship,
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there is a meditative side to
this, there is a reflectiveness
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to it that I think it's good and
virtuous to cultivate. It
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doesn't mean that everyone has
to do it. I mean I'm not trying
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to start a religion here, but
the idea of cultivating some
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humility, reflecting on what
you're doing so that you can be
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more effective, is just a good
strategy, let alone anything
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else.
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Gene Liverman: I definitely
agree with that. Learning those
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things is also one of the
hardest things to do. Learning
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the humility, learning the
introspection is very
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challenging.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely, and
making room for other people to
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have a bad day. You know, I mean
everybody, at any moment you
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meet them, is doing the best
they can. In that moment it may
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not be much, but they are
legitimately doing the best that
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they can. So make a little room
for that, give them a little
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slack. I mean, if they turn into
a predator and they start
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taking advantage of it, that's
another conversation. But day to
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day that's not who you're
dealing with most of the time.
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Gene Liverman: In the context of
what we're talking about.
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Generally, giving people a
benefit of the doubt is the
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appropriate response. Until
somebody proves you wrong,
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benefit of the doubt is the
appropriate way to react to most
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things.
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Chris Miller: Assuming we used
to say assuming positive intent,
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especially in this era we live
in, where everyone is pretty
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knee-jerk-y and looking for a
reason to be offended, making a
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little space for that benefit of
the doubt that assuming
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positive intent, well, it'll
help your brain, it'll help your
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anxiety. If nothing, oh,
absolutely, that's not a reason
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to do something. I don't know
what is.
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Gene Liverman: Yeah, there are
plenty of ways that we all find
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to offend each other In a
constructive way letting
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somebody know when they have
offended you, or maybe letting
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your co-worker know that there's
a fair chance that they just
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came off in a very offensive
manner. Those are appropriate
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things, but don't assume that
they intended to offend
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everybody up until the point
that they've proven you wrong.
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Chris Miller: Yep, that leads to
the last piece of the mentoring
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that I go to. I'm a book person
and I will always push people.
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I always have a book ready for
when someone is in a particular
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situation and I think it's
appropriate to go and read and
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better yourself. The mentor can
only point in the direction you
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have to go walk through it.
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Gene Liverman: Do you have any
go-to books that are your bog
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standard? I use these 75, 80% of
the time whenever I'm looking
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to hand somebody a book.
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Chris Miller: You know it's
funny. It depends on what the
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situation is and what we're
mentoring about, but one that
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I've used a lot crazily enough,
is just the first chapter of the
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Art of War by Sun Tzu.
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Gene Liverman: That's not one I
would have expected you to say.
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Chris Miller: Well, no, of
course, but what's interesting
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about that is it shows the way
to think about strategy and what
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conditions you need to think
about when you're assessing a
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situation. I think that's one of
the things that we need to
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learn first is how do we know
where we are he talks about? You
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have to understand heaven or
the weather, because he's
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talking about a battlefield, or
the landscape and all that. But
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all of that is a metaphor for
your office situation, believe
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it or not. Just that first
chapter having people read that
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and then discuss that is a good
place to start. There are other
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things along the way. There are
business books that have proven
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to be useful, depending on what
you're doing. There's one called
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Crucial Conversations, which is
good about the really hard
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communications If you're a new
manager. There's one called the
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Invisible Spotlight, which he
made a huge impact on me because
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he wrote the line you are the
person your staff talks about
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when they go home and have
dinner.
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Gene Liverman: Yeah, to see how
that would be impactful when
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that revelation hits.
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Chris Miller: You don't think
about it that way. When you step
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up in any kind of leadership
position, yeah, it's not even
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management, it's really
leadership. But honestly, as far
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as the technical stuff, there
are so many good resources out
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there I couldn't throw a rock
and hit. It's just people love
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clean code, people don't love
clean code. I think having those
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conversations, I think you
learn more through the
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conversation, not networking,
but meeting people. I think
395
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there's a difference.
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Gene Liverman: Meeting and
talking with people, I think, is
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probably the best thing there,
networking is more about making
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business contacts or
professional contacts, whereas
399
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meeting people and having
conversations and the like is
400
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more about actually relationship
building. At least to me,
401
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that's the differentiator.
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Chris Miller: Yeah, I think so.
I think the one thing that
403
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social media has but it's built
on everything that's been around
404
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since bulletin boards and use
net and all that is, if you walk
405
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into that space and you can be
open, you can have some really
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great experiences, learning
experience. I mean that's how
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you and I met. Through that
space, I have made people that I
408
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consider friendly with. I don't
know I'm a little funny about
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friends. Are we friends? I don't
know, because we've never met
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in person. That's the whole
thing. There is an amount of
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caring there and because of that
, conversations happen. I think
412
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that's the best learning that
you can do, whether it's you
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know if you're doing it in your
Discord server with your friends
414
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or you're supporting someone's
Patreon and you're talking to
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people through that. I just
think that openness to the
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conversation is super important.
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Gene Liverman: Yeah, that
totally makes sense and that
418
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resonates with me as well. One
of the books you mentioned
419
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crucial conversations is one
that I've seen come up both
420
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professionally and on the
academic side. It was actually
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one of the ones that I had to
read for one of the classes I
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took in college and then several
years later it came up again as
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part of a professional thing
that I was doing, and I think it
424
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was just as applicable in both
scenarios, both from the hey,
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I'm just learning about how to
deal with people and oh, I need
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to really think about how to
have these harder conversations
427
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of the kind of like with the
developer, type conversations of
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hey, you wrote this to do this,
but you know that doesn't
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actually solve the problem and
being able to have that
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conversation in a constructive
manner, that was very helpful to
431
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kind of get refreshed on some
of that.
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Chris Miller: It'd be
interesting if you had to read
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crucial conversations before
doing a group code review. You
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know, oh, it's very clever that
you were able to do that in one
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line. But I mean, come on, man.
So I mean, as a rule I'm not a
436
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fan of business books. I think a
lot of them, you know you could
437
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get three paragraphs out of it
and get the most of it. But
438
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there are a few good ones out
there, like that, crucial
439
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conversations, like the business
spot, especially for leaders in
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those situations. That's good,
you know, day to day developers
441
00:27:46,775 --> 00:27:49,842
on the ground. I think you could
go back to some of the classics
442
00:27:49,842 --> 00:27:54,365
and look at Ben Franklin had a
list of 13 virtues he tried to
443
00:27:54,405 --> 00:27:56,755
cultivate and each week he would
work on a different one.
444
00:27:57,650 --> 00:28:00,876
Looking at some of those old
style things, if not to adopt it
445
00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:05,835
whole style, but to use it as a
point of reflection and say
446
00:28:06,215 --> 00:28:09,653
what kind of things do I want to
work on? Build a discipline,
447
00:28:09,692 --> 00:28:13,655
build a practice. You know I
stole that again from Tom
448
00:28:13,715 --> 00:28:17,071
because he did it and introduced
me to it. So credit where
449
00:28:17,112 --> 00:28:21,826
credit is due. But that
discipline of practice, not just
450
00:28:21,826 --> 00:28:26,155
in how you write your code or
how you build your systems, but
451
00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:30,553
in how you move through the
world you don't have to be
452
00:28:30,613 --> 00:28:33,075
perfect. Everybody has a bad day
and you're not going to be a
453
00:28:33,195 --> 00:28:40,250
monk, but it's just being an
inch of self-awareness. If we
454
00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:42,357
can get that, we're already
better off.
455
00:28:42,851 --> 00:28:46,815
Gene Liverman: I agree. Are
there any particular places that
456
00:28:46,815 --> 00:28:51,230
you would point people who are,
I guess, on two questions, any
457
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:54,096
particular place you would point
people who would like to look
458
00:28:54,758 --> 00:28:59,715
at being mentors, and any
particular places you know of
459
00:28:59,736 --> 00:29:02,241
that are good to go if you're
looking to be mentored?
460
00:29:02,930 --> 00:29:05,375
Chris Miller: That's a really
good question, and I don't know
461
00:29:05,415 --> 00:29:06,598
of a specific place.
462
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:10,230
Gene Liverman: Okay, or let me
rephrase part of that then, If
463
00:29:10,269 --> 00:29:14,385
not a specific place, a specific
type of person that you might
464
00:29:14,445 --> 00:29:16,654
interact with, either
professionally or personally,
465
00:29:16,694 --> 00:29:20,869
that might be a good candidate
to talk to about. Hey, would you
466
00:29:20,869 --> 00:29:24,118
maybe be interested in helping
me develop a little bit?
467
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:30,960
Chris Miller: Yeah, I think that
finding someone that you admire
468
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,654
is a good one. Finding someone
who works very differently from
469
00:29:34,694 --> 00:29:38,797
you works as well. I think those
are the two places that I would
470
00:29:38,797 --> 00:29:42,215
start. Sometimes they're more
senior than you are. Often they
471
00:29:42,317 --> 00:29:44,833
are. They don't have to be. They
could work at a different
472
00:29:44,893 --> 00:29:48,792
business unit or do a different
thing. I once had a guy who was
473
00:29:48,853 --> 00:29:53,329
my peer, who he and I did not
get along at all. We had
474
00:29:53,349 --> 00:29:56,357
different philosophies on things
, but I wound up learning an
475
00:29:56,459 --> 00:29:59,654
awful lot from him through
something that now I would
476
00:29:59,694 --> 00:30:03,011
consider a mentoring
relationship. Mentoring does not
477
00:30:03,011 --> 00:30:07,637
mean being subservient. You're
not the Padawan to the Jedi
478
00:30:07,678 --> 00:30:11,056
master. You're there to have a
conversation and learn some
479
00:30:11,096 --> 00:30:16,894
things. Your mentor will learn
from you too. I think in your
480
00:30:16,954 --> 00:30:20,962
communities, if you see someone
you admire the work they do, you
481
00:30:20,962 --> 00:30:25,722
like them well enough, or you
see a skill they have that you
482
00:30:26,164 --> 00:30:30,682
would like to cultivate not
absorb, cultivate because you've
483
00:30:30,682 --> 00:30:34,114
got to. You've got to build it.
I Think just approach them and
484
00:30:34,255 --> 00:30:38,010
ask if they'd be willing, and
then there are lots of. There
485
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:41,096
are lots of opinions about what
makes a good mentoring
486
00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:44,163
relationship. Online, there are
lots of many models for this,
487
00:30:45,172 --> 00:30:48,347
but I think sitting down and if
they say yes then say alright,
488
00:30:48,367 --> 00:30:50,655
well, here you know, know what
you'd like to get out of it,
489
00:30:51,198 --> 00:30:56,153
know how often you'd like to
meet, and then it turns into Not
490
00:30:56,153 --> 00:31:00,472
therapy but kind of feels that
way sometimes, where you know
491
00:31:00,512 --> 00:31:04,372
you just you just work through
things and you know again You'll
492
00:31:04,372 --> 00:31:06,680
talk about professional stuff,
you'll talk about personal
493
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:09,834
projects, that kind of thing.
But you can set those boundaries
494
00:31:09,834 --> 00:31:13,541
. But do walk into it having
some idea what you want out of
495
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,997
it, because Mentorships don't
last forever and they are
496
00:31:17,077 --> 00:31:21,904
different than a friendship. You
may be friends with your mentor
497
00:31:21,904 --> 00:31:26,436
and that's great, but you know
I've had mentors that I was not
498
00:31:27,057 --> 00:31:29,864
friends with, usually in a
business situation. That's okay,
499
00:31:29,864 --> 00:31:31,332
too cool.
500
00:31:32,671 --> 00:31:34,775
Gene Liverman: If somebody would
like to reach out to you, to
501
00:31:35,016 --> 00:31:38,403
maybe continue this conversation
or to just contact you in
502
00:31:38,702 --> 00:31:41,494
general, how would you recommend
they find you on the internet?
503
00:31:41,935 --> 00:31:44,923
Chris Miller: The easiest is my
website. It's a ctmillernet.
504
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:49,874
It's a hodgepodge of stuff, but
you can find out when to where
505
00:31:49,894 --> 00:31:54,777
to find me. You can also find me
on the Faustodon Mastodon
506
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:58,963
instance. I'm there as grew
proof like you might be eaten by
507
00:31:58,963 --> 00:32:05,104
a group group. Those are the
two main ways I would reach out
508
00:32:05,163 --> 00:32:08,643
to me if you wanted to find me.
I'm not hard to find you just
509
00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:09,970
you know, need to look in the
right place.
510
00:32:10,352 --> 00:32:12,104
Gene Liverman: Yeah, and I'll be
sharing include links to both
511
00:32:12,124 --> 00:32:15,057
of those on the show notes, so
anybody who's interested should
512
00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:17,665
be able to see it right in their
podcast app with without any
513
00:32:17,726 --> 00:32:20,772
trouble, or see it on the
website. Cool, thanks. Well,
514
00:32:20,794 --> 00:32:23,919
thank you very much for taking
the time today and I greatly
515
00:32:23,939 --> 00:32:27,931
appreciate it. Thank you for
having me. This is great. Before
516
00:32:27,931 --> 00:32:30,616
we go, I'd like to thank those
of you who have boosted in
517
00:32:30,656 --> 00:32:34,452
support for the show. It is very
much appreciated. This is a
518
00:32:34,492 --> 00:32:37,663
value for value podcast, which
means I rely on listeners like
519
00:32:37,702 --> 00:32:41,474
yourself contributing back to
fund it as Such. I'll never
520
00:32:41,515 --> 00:32:44,607
charge you to listen, but
producing and hosting it does
521
00:32:44,647 --> 00:32:48,836
cost money. If you got value
from this episode, I ask that
522
00:32:48,856 --> 00:32:51,903
you contribute by sending a
boost through a modern podcast
523
00:32:52,022 --> 00:32:55,777
app like Fountain or cast a
medic, or via the support the
524
00:32:55,817 --> 00:32:58,623
show link in the show notes that
are visible in your podcast app
525
00:32:58,623 --> 00:33:02,220
. You can also find the show
notes and transcripts at
526
00:33:02,339 --> 00:33:07,175
volunteer technologist calm. If
you would like to come on the
527
00:33:07,217 --> 00:33:10,249
show or know someone I should
reach out to about being on the
528
00:33:10,269 --> 00:33:13,602
show, please send me a message
via one of the links at the
529
00:33:13,642 --> 00:33:15,990
bottom of the show notes. Thanks
for listening.
00:00:05,631 --> 00:00:07,615
Gene Liverman: Hello everyone
and welcome to the Volunteer
2
00:00:07,655 --> 00:00:10,643
Technologist podcast. Here we
take a look at the different
3
00:00:10,702 --> 00:00:13,657
ways that people who are
technically inclined volunteer
4
00:00:13,737 --> 00:00:17,047
outside of their primary job.
Today I'm joined by Chris Miller
5
00:00:17,047 --> 00:00:20,323
and we're going to talk about
mentoring both inside and
6
00:00:20,402 --> 00:00:23,370
outside the technical community.
How are you doing today, Chris?
7
00:00:23,370 --> 00:00:26,341
I'm doing real well, Gene.
Thanks for having me on. I
8
00:00:26,381 --> 00:00:28,794
appreciate you taking the time
to talk to us and share your
9
00:00:28,853 --> 00:00:31,925
experience. It sounds like
you've been doing a good bit of
10
00:00:31,964 --> 00:00:35,600
mentoring across your career and
I'm interested to hear a little
11
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,103
more about that. Yeah, well.
12
00:00:37,204 --> 00:00:41,412
Chris Miller: I find that it's
good to give back. I've been at
13
00:00:41,432 --> 00:00:48,131
this about 27 years now and I'm
always excited by watching new
14
00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:50,542
developers get started, no
matter where they're getting
15
00:00:50,603 --> 00:00:53,756
started. I work primarily in
development, which is not to
16
00:00:53,835 --> 00:00:57,325
discount ops or anything like
that, but watching new
17
00:00:57,384 --> 00:01:01,293
developers come into the field
and try to help them along and
18
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,614
maybe give them a leg up where I
wish I would have had one has
19
00:01:06,694 --> 00:01:10,147
always been a big part of it,
but also helping them with
20
00:01:10,810 --> 00:01:13,439
making their way through a
business situation because it's
21
00:01:13,579 --> 00:01:16,528
different. Coders talk
differently to one another than
22
00:01:16,548 --> 00:01:19,884
they do when they talk to the
business or the community stuff.
23
00:01:19,884 --> 00:01:23,953
It's really rich territory but
at the end it also keeps me in
24
00:01:24,013 --> 00:01:29,588
touch with new things. You can
get frozen as you move along in
25
00:01:29,629 --> 00:01:34,043
your career and it's always good
to hear from other people,
26
00:01:34,084 --> 00:01:36,109
other perspectives. I learn as
much as they do.
27
00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:39,331
Gene Liverman: That's awesome. I
guess I should probably back up
28
00:01:39,331 --> 00:01:41,701
just a minute and have you
introduce yourself a little bit
29
00:01:41,781 --> 00:01:45,777
and let people know who you are.
I forget sometimes that I've
30
00:01:45,796 --> 00:01:48,245
been reading up on the people
that I chat with, but the people
31
00:01:48,245 --> 00:01:50,271
listening probably don't really
know who you are.
32
00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:53,909
Chris Miller: Probably not.
That's okay, I am not a famous
33
00:01:53,989 --> 00:01:58,043
person. My name is Chris Miller.
I live in Cleveland, Ohio. I
34
00:01:58,082 --> 00:02:02,617
got started back in 94, 95. If
you want to go all the way back,
35
00:02:02,617 --> 00:02:04,983
it was 87 on a bulletin board
when.
36
00:02:05,003 --> 00:02:05,763
Gene Liverman: I was 16.
37
00:02:06,725 --> 00:02:08,628
Chris Miller: Nice, give a
little bit of old school cred. I
38
00:02:08,628 --> 00:02:16,129
got my start. I worked at the
very first online bookstore
39
00:02:16,872 --> 00:02:21,080
Before Amazon. In Cleveland
there was a site called Book
40
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:28,076
Stacks Unlimited. We were doing
business over telnet in 1992. I
41
00:02:28,137 --> 00:02:30,663
remember the day Amazon got
started and we were all like
42
00:02:30,704 --> 00:02:35,620
what the hell is this? I got
started there. I had worked on
43
00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,036
an English degree in college but
was looking for work In those
44
00:02:40,135 --> 00:02:42,965
early days of the web. They
would take anybody who knew a
45
00:02:43,006 --> 00:02:47,360
little bit of HTML, which I did.
I got started there and then
46
00:02:47,539 --> 00:02:50,328
moved into some consulting and
learned more development and
47
00:02:50,407 --> 00:02:53,544
more development and had some
really good mentors along the
48
00:02:53,584 --> 00:02:56,692
way, which is you'll find a
theme there.
49
00:02:57,241 --> 00:02:58,645
Gene Liverman: Makes M all the
difference in the world.
50
00:02:59,048 --> 00:03:02,080
Chris Miller: Exactly. I've
worked for agencies. I've worked
51
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,110
for consulting firms. I did
some time at a startup out in
52
00:03:05,151 --> 00:03:10,086
California. I've done big
corporate work. Now I'm actually
53
00:03:10,086 --> 00:03:14,718
working for my local park
system as their website. I've
54
00:03:14,739 --> 00:03:18,650
done management. I did about 15
years of development management
55
00:03:18,789 --> 00:03:23,143
and about 15 years of coding.
That doesn't add up to 27, but
56
00:03:23,342 --> 00:03:29,198
you take the point. It's fuzzy
math. I guess the thing that I
57
00:03:29,237 --> 00:03:32,685
would hang my hat on, besides
the mentoring I've done, are
58
00:03:32,745 --> 00:03:37,860
really two things. Back in 2005,
when podcasting became a thing,
59
00:03:37,860 --> 00:03:41,489
I worked with a couple of guys.
One guy named Evo Terra,
60
00:03:42,069 --> 00:03:45,544
another one named Team Morris.
We put together a website for
61
00:03:45,584 --> 00:03:50,051
serializing audiobooks via
podcasts. It was called
62
00:03:50,092 --> 00:03:53,550
pottyobookscom. Evo was still
out there. He's doing his thing.
63
00:03:53,550 --> 00:03:56,080
As a matter of fact, I just
started working with him on
64
00:03:56,141 --> 00:04:00,757
another project but at the time
. In those early days it was the
65
00:04:00,757 --> 00:04:05,574
only way you could get books in
order, because when you podcast
66
00:04:05,574 --> 00:04:07,661
you're always going to get the
most recent chapter, not the
67
00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:11,110
first chapter. I built an engine
that would allow people to get
68
00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:15,686
things on their schedule. Any
donations went to the authors.
69
00:04:15,806 --> 00:04:19,519
75% of them went to the authors.
It had a really good run. It
70
00:04:19,579 --> 00:04:26,031
lasted about 12 years, I think.
Then podcasting, matured Audible
71
00:04:26,031 --> 00:04:30,745
, ate the market. All of that
that was really great. These
72
00:04:30,805 --> 00:04:34,220
days I'm most proud of I do a
little bit. I do some volunteer
73
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,411
moderating on Fosstodon, the
Mastodon instance. I'm always
74
00:04:38,512 --> 00:04:42,622
excited by the Fediverse. It
reminds me a lot of the old days
75
00:04:42,622 --> 00:04:47,177
of the web. I'm sure maybe you
feel that way, a lot of folks
76
00:04:47,237 --> 00:04:51,949
from my generation. It reminds
them of the old days of the web.
77
00:04:51,949 --> 00:04:56,942
Again, it's that open source
community that really inspires
78
00:04:57,043 --> 00:05:00,151
me. I enjoy being a part of that
.
79
00:05:01,161 --> 00:05:04,108
Gene Liverman: To bring us back
to being fully on topic, how
80
00:05:04,148 --> 00:05:08,144
have you applied that mentoring
throughout your career? I take
81
00:05:08,165 --> 00:05:10,896
that you've done a good bit of
work helping with some of the
82
00:05:10,937 --> 00:05:13,504
developers and stuff of that
nature.
83
00:05:14,848 --> 00:05:18,377
Chris Miller: When I moved into
management, I did it because I
84
00:05:18,437 --> 00:05:22,208
was getting bored with the code
problems I was solving. I found
85
00:05:22,247 --> 00:05:26,139
that I really enjoyed helping
other people work through those
86
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,331
issues and clearing the path.
Mentoring became a big part of
87
00:05:30,391 --> 00:05:36,685
just the daily gig, which I
really enjoyed. Sometimes I was
88
00:05:36,725 --> 00:05:40,093
a better mentor than others.
Mentors have got to learn too
89
00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:44,951
that eventually, working with
people at my day job eventually
90
00:05:45,012 --> 00:05:49,884
became working with a boot camp
here in Cleveland and going in
91
00:05:50,345 --> 00:05:56,978
and helping people with Do mock
interviews. These folks, coming
92
00:05:57,079 --> 00:06:00,689
out of the Java or C-Sharp boot
camp that they were going
93
00:06:00,709 --> 00:06:05,043
through for 16 weeks, would know
what to expect when they're
94
00:06:05,062 --> 00:06:07,858
walking into an interview what
people are going to expect of
95
00:06:07,879 --> 00:06:13,630
them. It became a soup to nuts.
Here's how you get started.
96
00:06:13,750 --> 00:06:18,464
Here's how you continue. Then,
for some people that decided to
97
00:06:18,524 --> 00:06:23,380
move up in management, it was
management. Mentoring about. The
98
00:06:23,380 --> 00:06:26,608
tech is still important, but
helping people learn how to
99
00:06:26,668 --> 00:06:34,329
communicate and how to speak to
business people it's no secret
100
00:06:34,370 --> 00:06:37,334
that a lot of us techies are
fairly socially awkward or
101
00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:41,548
anxious or something. Helping
people through those situations
102
00:06:42,069 --> 00:06:46,601
so that they can succeed and
other people can see how good
103
00:06:46,661 --> 00:06:50,124
they are at what they do that
was a lot of it. I want each and
104
00:06:50,124 --> 00:06:55,331
every developer out there to
shine. Everybody is pretty
105
00:06:55,411 --> 00:06:57,827
brilliant when you get down to
it when you're working in this
106
00:06:57,889 --> 00:07:03,170
field, yeah, so it's a broad
spectrum, it spans about 15
107
00:07:03,209 --> 00:07:06,673
years of work, and it was always
something that just kind of
108
00:07:06,733 --> 00:07:10,192
came along with the job, because
I have known people who have
109
00:07:10,233 --> 00:07:13,591
had very bad managers and I have
known people who have had to
110
00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:18,670
work their way up trying to
figure it out, and in some ways
111
00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:22,728
I had a little bit of that at
the beginning and it seems to me
112
00:07:22,728 --> 00:07:27,288
that it is a far better thing
to help someone along, to reach
113
00:07:27,348 --> 00:07:30,512
and help them, and you change
someone's life, though
114
00:07:30,952 --> 00:07:35,355
Absolutely, then to just pretend
it's Thunderdome and two people
115
00:07:35,355 --> 00:07:36,970
enter and one person leaves.
116
00:07:38,406 --> 00:07:41,125
Gene Liverman: One of my
favorite managers told me that
117
00:07:41,346 --> 00:07:44,822
if he had done his job right,
more than one person on his team
118
00:07:44,822 --> 00:07:48,233
would be perfectly capable and
willing to take his job.
119
00:07:49,266 --> 00:07:49,827
Chris Miller: Absolutely.
120
00:07:51,247 --> 00:07:54,175
Gene Liverman: One of his goals
was to basically develop
121
00:07:54,194 --> 00:07:57,274
somebody so that they had the
capability to be his replacement
122
00:07:57,274 --> 00:07:58,127
if they so chose.
123
00:07:58,971 --> 00:08:03,706
Chris Miller: Absolutely, and
having them know that A lot of
124
00:08:03,747 --> 00:08:07,565
people have the skills and just
don't know that they have it. So
125
00:08:07,565 --> 00:08:10,708
I don't like the word
empowering because it's such a
126
00:08:10,809 --> 00:08:17,709
buzzword, but in some cases it's
appropriate. But when someone
127
00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:23,067
knows their own competence and
is, if not comfortable, then
128
00:08:23,107 --> 00:08:27,470
certainly able to navigate those
waters, I think it goes a long,
129
00:08:27,470 --> 00:08:31,733
long way. And confident
technology people are
130
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desperately needed as a
counterbalance to some of the
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insanity we see in the business
world. And that's a whole topic
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and I'll try not to dip my toe
too far into that. But rational
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thought is often a premium.
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Gene Liverman: Yes, I know that,
for me, having people who are
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willing to mentor me and that
being combined with being in the
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right place at the right time
which sometimes it waits to just
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luck of the draw has really
facilitated me to do most of the
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things that I do today, and
it's always nice to see and hear
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about how other people are
filling those roles of mentoring
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.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely. I used
to really enjoy. I used to go
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to there's a local thing called
Py Ohio, where I live in Ohio,
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and PyCon. I was involved with
the Python community sparingly
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but I had some friends that were
very deep into it and I used to
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love going to those conventions
because it wasn't networking,
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it was meeting people and you
would meet people who would
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mentor you for an hour and it
would be an amazing experience
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and I have been mentored by
developers older than me,
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developers younger than me, all
different shape sizes, and it
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really broadens your perspective
. It makes you think in
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different ways and you need that
because in our industry that
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changes so quickly and yet
doesn't change at all. It's
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really important to keep your
mind fresh.
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Gene Liverman: Yes. And pliable,
very much so, and it's also
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really important to learn how to
communicate what you've done.
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I've had some co-workers in the
past that one of my personal
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mentor and goals has been to
help them. Help other people
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know how good they are at what
they do, because some of them
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have been incredibly brilliant
but have fit into that bucket of
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people that you described
earlier either a little bit
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awkward, or they feel like they
have imposter syndrome or any of
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the other varieties of things
that make them not speak up, and
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because people don't hear what
they're doing, they assume
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they're not doing, which
couldn't be farther from the
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truth.
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Chris Miller: I think in our
profession it is. One of the
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pitfalls is we only see the
flaws and we don't enjoy our
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victories very much and we
certainly don't hang our medals
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on the wall, and maybe we should
. Maybe a little trophy case is
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a good thing. Some achievements,
it's not a bad way to go. But
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you're right, learning how to
communicate those to people who
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don't understand the technology,
learning to communicate with
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non-technical people is
absolutely essential if you're
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moving into certain parts of
your career and it's hard
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because they don't think the way
we do and I'm not saying they
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don't think, I'm not asking
aspersions, but they have a
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different set of priorities and
a different way of thinking
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about things Well.
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Gene Liverman: A lot of times
your customer be it an internal
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customer or a paying customer,
or the group that you're
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volunteering for, whoever you're
interfacing with as your
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customer a lot of times the
reason that they want you to do
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your thing is because they don't
understand it. But you've got
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to be able to communicate with
them in terms that they
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understand so that you can make
sure you're actually doing the
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right thing. Let them know what
you need to know and learn what
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it is that they need you to know
. That translating techie to
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non-techie and from non-techie
into techie is incredibly
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important for just determining
requirements for a project.
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Chris Miller: Yeah, and building
a relationship with that client
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, customer person, because they
have to trust you. And a lot of
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people don't trust us. People
don't trust what they don't
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understand. And if we start
talking in TLA's and XTLA's and
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all of our domain-specific
language which works for us
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because we know what we're
talking about, it'd be the same
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as if you walked into an
accounting meeting and they
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started spinning up all of their
lingo that you don't understand
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and you would feel awkward and
untrusting. And I think a lot of
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us may feel a lot more curious
than maybe. I think that's a
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defining trait of a lot of
technologists is we're curious
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so we're willing to go learn
that, but a lot of folks on the
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other side are not. That's not
what they do and that's not what
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they're interested in.
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Gene Liverman: And that's OK,
that's OK.
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Chris Miller: That's not their
role. I know that sounds a
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little patronizing and I
apologize, but I'm trying to
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make space in the world for
non-techies, right.
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Gene Liverman: When I did help
desk support for a while,
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specifically in-user support,
and I would tell people all the
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time that If everybody knew how
to do all the same things it'd
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be really boring. I'm really
good at what I do and in this
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particular case I was on a
university campus. I don't know
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90% of what the professors and
administrative staff that I'm
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helping fix their technology. I
don't understand all the stuff
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they do, any more than they
understand what I do, but I
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learned how to communicate with
them and we developed that
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mutual trust between each other
and I trusted they know what
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they're talking about and they
would trust that I know what I'm
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talking about and the two of us
together could get the whole
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job done. But either one of us
by ourselves couldn't get the
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whole process done. Like I can
put a computer in a classroom
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and I can set up a lab, but I
can't teach the kids to use it,
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at least not at that time.
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Chris Miller: No, you're
absolutely right and you know.
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Understanding that, you know it
all comes together as a team is
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really important. And there's
another side to that, which is
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the arrogance of the techie and
the arrogance of the which is
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the oh, everyone else is an
idiot and I could run the
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business better than all of them
and if that were true, you
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would be running your own
business instead of working. Yes
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, and so that I saw a very funny
video by Jeff the guy who runs
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guy who runs fireshipio, and he
said you know, developers only
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have two paths imposter syndrome
or megalomania. And, and you
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know I laugh because, yeah, I
switch back and forth between
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that and I think everybody does.
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Gene Liverman: I think there's a
healthy balance in the middle
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there somewhere.
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Chris Miller: Exactly, exactly.
So you know. That is also an
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important part of mentoring is
being able to say to someone
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well, slow your roll a little
bit. You're smart and that's
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great, but smart in this arena
doesn't mean smart at all arenas
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.
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Gene Liverman: What are some
ways that you have found that
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you can communicate some of
these topics that you want to
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mentor people on to, like how do
you broach those topics with
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the people who need to hear them
? So like at a boot camp?
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Obviously they're there to learn
, they're probably already
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really receptive to a lot of
this, but in a lot of other
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cases I'm imagining that there's
some hey, I think you could
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probably stand to hear this,
like how do you, how do you go
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about starting that mentoring
relationship and getting kind of
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getting things going?
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Chris Miller: You've got to
build the trust first. You've
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got to have a relationship. You
can't lead in with like, if I,
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you know, if I took you aside at
work and say, hey, dude, don't
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do this, you're never going to,
and you know why would you? Just
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, you know, Fair point, you
don't have that relationship,
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you don't have that trust. So
you've got to. You've got to
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build that first, and I don't
mean like in a manipulative way,
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but as two people having a
conversation, with different
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experiences and who are
definitely invested in one
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another's well-being. It's only
after that that you could say,
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hey, I noticed you did this
thing. Why did you do that thing
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? What were you trying to get to
? Because here's how it came off
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in the room and here's how
people reacted. Was that the
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desired intent? There's a a
Socratic method to it of asking
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the questions and, again, it's
to get people reflecting on what
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they're doing, Because in the
thick of it, you don't have time
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for that. But it's only through
that kind of reflection that I
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think we learn about who we are
and about what we do wrong. I
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had a mentor come to me once and
said you know, I think you
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thought you were being funny,
but it didn't play well. You got
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to read the room and here's how
you can do that and and he was
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absolutely right, because I
noticed every you know I use
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humor when I'm nervous and it
was all falling flat on me and
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that's normally how I win the
crowd over and it wasn't winning
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anybody over. So, you know, I
think that's the main technique
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is is helping people after after
you have some trust and some
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relationship to find their blind
spots and help them reflect
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upon them. There's no, you can't
just flip a switch for a habit
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that you've had for a long time,
or especially a defense
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mechanism, but you can learn to
recognize it and, hopefully,
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plan for it. So I think I think
that's the key.
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Gene Liverman: You can learn
some self-awareness too. That
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will help you see it in yourself
when it happens. It doesn't
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always help with prevention, but
it does make you aware enough
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that, hopefully, most people
will become humble enough to be
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like wait a minute. You know, I
don't think that came off the
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way I meant for it too, or you
know what? That was a little
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harsher than I intended. Let me
back up, I apologize and then
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proceed on with what needs to be
done. You hit on a good word
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there humble humility.
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Chris Miller: That has to be a
part of our practice. Just
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because we know a lot about a
thing doesn't mean we know a lot
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about everything, and it
doesn't give us the right to run
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roughshod over people. I have
seen people who were absolutely
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correct speak up in ways that
completely undermined the
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argument and I know that wasn't
their intent. But they think
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they're speaking truth to power
when really what they're doing
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is denigrating someone on their
own team, and that erodes trust.
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You need that trust. If you're
going to work together, you have
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to be able to rely on one
another. Presentation is almost
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as important as the information
being presented.
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Gene Liverman: I mean look at
all the various ways we consume
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information. Now, presentation
is key to getting us to pay
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attention.
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Chris Miller: Yeah, absolutely,
when you have the attention to
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do so, and that's a whole other
topic of conversation. Yes, it
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is. Cost of task switching
attention to the other Cost of
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task, switching, attention
deficit, all of that there's a
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lot of. I have a friend who you
may talk to one of these days,
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tom Gideon. He had a podcast
called the Command where he
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talked about the practice and
profession of coding, and the
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practice of this is I mean it
comes off sounding like a Zen
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master or a guru or something,
but there is a craftsmanship,
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there is a meditative side to
this, there is a reflectiveness
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to it that I think it's good and
virtuous to cultivate. It
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doesn't mean that everyone has
to do it. I mean I'm not trying
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to start a religion here, but
the idea of cultivating some
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humility, reflecting on what
you're doing so that you can be
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more effective, is just a good
strategy, let alone anything
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else.
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Gene Liverman: I definitely
agree with that. Learning those
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things is also one of the
hardest things to do. Learning
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the humility, learning the
introspection is very
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challenging.
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Chris Miller: Absolutely, and
making room for other people to
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have a bad day. You know, I mean
everybody, at any moment you
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meet them, is doing the best
they can. In that moment it may
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not be much, but they are
legitimately doing the best that
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they can. So make a little room
for that, give them a little
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slack. I mean, if they turn into
a predator and they start
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taking advantage of it, that's
another conversation. But day to
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day that's not who you're
dealing with most of the time.
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Gene Liverman: In the context of
what we're talking about.
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Generally, giving people a
benefit of the doubt is the
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appropriate response. Until
somebody proves you wrong,
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benefit of the doubt is the
appropriate way to react to most
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things.
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Chris Miller: Assuming we used
to say assuming positive intent,
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especially in this era we live
in, where everyone is pretty
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knee-jerk-y and looking for a
reason to be offended, making a
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little space for that benefit of
the doubt that assuming
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positive intent, well, it'll
help your brain, it'll help your
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anxiety. If nothing, oh,
absolutely, that's not a reason
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to do something. I don't know
what is.
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Gene Liverman: Yeah, there are
plenty of ways that we all find
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to offend each other In a
constructive way letting
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somebody know when they have
offended you, or maybe letting
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your co-worker know that there's
a fair chance that they just
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came off in a very offensive
manner. Those are appropriate
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things, but don't assume that
they intended to offend
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everybody up until the point
that they've proven you wrong.
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Chris Miller: Yep, that leads to
the last piece of the mentoring
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that I go to. I'm a book person
and I will always push people.
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I always have a book ready for
when someone is in a particular
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situation and I think it's
appropriate to go and read and
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00:22:34,555 --> 00:22:38,354
better yourself. The mentor can
only point in the direction you
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have to go walk through it.
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Gene Liverman: Do you have any
go-to books that are your bog
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00:22:44,992 --> 00:22:49,807
standard? I use these 75, 80% of
the time whenever I'm looking
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00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:50,711
to hand somebody a book.
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Chris Miller: You know it's
funny. It depends on what the
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00:22:54,875 --> 00:22:58,446
situation is and what we're
mentoring about, but one that
365
00:22:58,467 --> 00:23:03,376
I've used a lot crazily enough,
is just the first chapter of the
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00:23:03,376 --> 00:23:04,778
Art of War by Sun Tzu.
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00:23:05,546 --> 00:23:07,231
Gene Liverman: That's not one I
would have expected you to say.
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00:23:07,664 --> 00:23:10,650
Chris Miller: Well, no, of
course, but what's interesting
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00:23:10,829 --> 00:23:20,027
about that is it shows the way
to think about strategy and what
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00:23:20,027 --> 00:23:23,375
conditions you need to think
about when you're assessing a
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00:23:23,435 --> 00:23:27,912
situation. I think that's one of
the things that we need to
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00:23:27,971 --> 00:23:33,112
learn first is how do we know
where we are he talks about? You
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00:23:33,112 --> 00:23:35,702
have to understand heaven or
the weather, because he's
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00:23:35,742 --> 00:23:38,891
talking about a battlefield, or
the landscape and all that. But
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00:23:38,971 --> 00:23:45,371
all of that is a metaphor for
your office situation, believe
376
00:23:45,391 --> 00:23:48,862
it or not. Just that first
chapter having people read that
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00:23:48,961 --> 00:23:53,096
and then discuss that is a good
place to start. There are other
378
00:23:53,155 --> 00:23:56,186
things along the way. There are
business books that have proven
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00:23:56,227 --> 00:23:59,078
to be useful, depending on what
you're doing. There's one called
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00:23:59,078 --> 00:24:02,913
Crucial Conversations, which is
good about the really hard
381
00:24:03,414 --> 00:24:06,565
communications If you're a new
manager. There's one called the
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00:24:06,664 --> 00:24:11,515
Invisible Spotlight, which he
made a huge impact on me because
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00:24:11,515 --> 00:24:15,971
he wrote the line you are the
person your staff talks about
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00:24:16,031 --> 00:24:17,336
when they go home and have
dinner.
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00:24:18,444 --> 00:24:20,291
Gene Liverman: Yeah, to see how
that would be impactful when
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00:24:20,332 --> 00:24:21,434
that revelation hits.
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00:24:23,467 --> 00:24:25,474
Chris Miller: You don't think
about it that way. When you step
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00:24:25,474 --> 00:24:30,092
up in any kind of leadership
position, yeah, it's not even
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00:24:30,152 --> 00:24:36,051
management, it's really
leadership. But honestly, as far
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00:24:36,051 --> 00:24:40,038
as the technical stuff, there
are so many good resources out
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00:24:40,078 --> 00:24:47,075
there I couldn't throw a rock
and hit. It's just people love
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00:24:47,134 --> 00:24:52,051
clean code, people don't love
clean code. I think having those
393
00:24:52,051 --> 00:24:53,576
conversations, I think you
learn more through the
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00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:56,973
conversation, not networking,
but meeting people. I think
395
00:24:56,993 --> 00:24:57,615
there's a difference.
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00:24:59,102 --> 00:25:00,547
Gene Liverman: Meeting and
talking with people, I think, is
397
00:25:00,547 --> 00:25:04,721
probably the best thing there,
networking is more about making
398
00:25:05,001 --> 00:25:08,632
business contacts or
professional contacts, whereas
399
00:25:09,374 --> 00:25:13,345
meeting people and having
conversations and the like is
400
00:25:13,365 --> 00:25:17,039
more about actually relationship
building. At least to me,
401
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,045
that's the differentiator.
402
00:25:18,807 --> 00:25:22,194
Chris Miller: Yeah, I think so.
I think the one thing that
403
00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:26,808
social media has but it's built
on everything that's been around
404
00:25:26,808 --> 00:25:30,122
since bulletin boards and use
net and all that is, if you walk
405
00:25:30,122 --> 00:25:33,696
into that space and you can be
open, you can have some really
406
00:25:33,757 --> 00:25:36,205
great experiences, learning
experience. I mean that's how
407
00:25:36,266 --> 00:25:42,900
you and I met. Through that
space, I have made people that I
408
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:47,474
consider friendly with. I don't
know I'm a little funny about
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00:25:47,535 --> 00:25:50,605
friends. Are we friends? I don't
know, because we've never met
410
00:25:50,665 --> 00:25:56,513
in person. That's the whole
thing. There is an amount of
411
00:25:56,574 --> 00:26:00,192
caring there and because of that
, conversations happen. I think
412
00:26:00,252 --> 00:26:03,292
that's the best learning that
you can do, whether it's you
413
00:26:03,333 --> 00:26:06,119
know if you're doing it in your
Discord server with your friends
414
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,239
or you're supporting someone's
Patreon and you're talking to
415
00:26:11,278 --> 00:26:14,957
people through that. I just
think that openness to the
416
00:26:15,017 --> 00:26:17,566
conversation is super important.
417
00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:19,355
Gene Liverman: Yeah, that
totally makes sense and that
418
00:26:19,414 --> 00:26:22,354
resonates with me as well. One
of the books you mentioned
419
00:26:22,374 --> 00:26:26,366
crucial conversations is one
that I've seen come up both
420
00:26:26,468 --> 00:26:29,592
professionally and on the
academic side. It was actually
421
00:26:29,652 --> 00:26:32,444
one of the ones that I had to
read for one of the classes I
422
00:26:32,484 --> 00:26:36,701
took in college and then several
years later it came up again as
423
00:26:36,701 --> 00:26:40,192
part of a professional thing
that I was doing, and I think it
424
00:26:40,192 --> 00:26:44,630
was just as applicable in both
scenarios, both from the hey,
425
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:49,625
I'm just learning about how to
deal with people and oh, I need
426
00:26:50,007 --> 00:26:52,934
to really think about how to
have these harder conversations
427
00:26:53,435 --> 00:26:56,730
of the kind of like with the
developer, type conversations of
428
00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:02,500
hey, you wrote this to do this,
but you know that doesn't
429
00:27:02,721 --> 00:27:06,913
actually solve the problem and
being able to have that
430
00:27:06,973 --> 00:27:12,050
conversation in a constructive
manner, that was very helpful to
431
00:27:12,050 --> 00:27:13,977
kind of get refreshed on some
of that.
432
00:27:14,650 --> 00:27:16,032
Chris Miller: It'd be
interesting if you had to read
433
00:27:16,053 --> 00:27:20,809
crucial conversations before
doing a group code review. You
434
00:27:20,829 --> 00:27:23,303
know, oh, it's very clever that
you were able to do that in one
435
00:27:23,363 --> 00:27:29,917
line. But I mean, come on, man.
So I mean, as a rule I'm not a
436
00:27:29,978 --> 00:27:32,939
fan of business books. I think a
lot of them, you know you could
437
00:27:32,939 --> 00:27:36,132
get three paragraphs out of it
and get the most of it. But
438
00:27:36,532 --> 00:27:39,420
there are a few good ones out
there, like that, crucial
439
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,137
conversations, like the business
spot, especially for leaders in
440
00:27:43,137 --> 00:27:46,693
those situations. That's good,
you know, day to day developers
441
00:27:46,775 --> 00:27:49,842
on the ground. I think you could
go back to some of the classics
442
00:27:49,842 --> 00:27:54,365
and look at Ben Franklin had a
list of 13 virtues he tried to
443
00:27:54,405 --> 00:27:56,755
cultivate and each week he would
work on a different one.
444
00:27:57,650 --> 00:28:00,876
Looking at some of those old
style things, if not to adopt it
445
00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:05,835
whole style, but to use it as a
point of reflection and say
446
00:28:06,215 --> 00:28:09,653
what kind of things do I want to
work on? Build a discipline,
447
00:28:09,692 --> 00:28:13,655
build a practice. You know I
stole that again from Tom
448
00:28:13,715 --> 00:28:17,071
because he did it and introduced
me to it. So credit where
449
00:28:17,112 --> 00:28:21,826
credit is due. But that
discipline of practice, not just
450
00:28:21,826 --> 00:28:26,155
in how you write your code or
how you build your systems, but
451
00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:30,553
in how you move through the
world you don't have to be
452
00:28:30,613 --> 00:28:33,075
perfect. Everybody has a bad day
and you're not going to be a
453
00:28:33,195 --> 00:28:40,250
monk, but it's just being an
inch of self-awareness. If we
454
00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:42,357
can get that, we're already
better off.
455
00:28:42,851 --> 00:28:46,815
Gene Liverman: I agree. Are
there any particular places that
456
00:28:46,815 --> 00:28:51,230
you would point people who are,
I guess, on two questions, any
457
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:54,096
particular place you would point
people who would like to look
458
00:28:54,758 --> 00:28:59,715
at being mentors, and any
particular places you know of
459
00:28:59,736 --> 00:29:02,241
that are good to go if you're
looking to be mentored?
460
00:29:02,930 --> 00:29:05,375
Chris Miller: That's a really
good question, and I don't know
461
00:29:05,415 --> 00:29:06,598
of a specific place.
462
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:10,230
Gene Liverman: Okay, or let me
rephrase part of that then, If
463
00:29:10,269 --> 00:29:14,385
not a specific place, a specific
type of person that you might
464
00:29:14,445 --> 00:29:16,654
interact with, either
professionally or personally,
465
00:29:16,694 --> 00:29:20,869
that might be a good candidate
to talk to about. Hey, would you
466
00:29:20,869 --> 00:29:24,118
maybe be interested in helping
me develop a little bit?
467
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:30,960
Chris Miller: Yeah, I think that
finding someone that you admire
468
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,654
is a good one. Finding someone
who works very differently from
469
00:29:34,694 --> 00:29:38,797
you works as well. I think those
are the two places that I would
470
00:29:38,797 --> 00:29:42,215
start. Sometimes they're more
senior than you are. Often they
471
00:29:42,317 --> 00:29:44,833
are. They don't have to be. They
could work at a different
472
00:29:44,893 --> 00:29:48,792
business unit or do a different
thing. I once had a guy who was
473
00:29:48,853 --> 00:29:53,329
my peer, who he and I did not
get along at all. We had
474
00:29:53,349 --> 00:29:56,357
different philosophies on things
, but I wound up learning an
475
00:29:56,459 --> 00:29:59,654
awful lot from him through
something that now I would
476
00:29:59,694 --> 00:30:03,011
consider a mentoring
relationship. Mentoring does not
477
00:30:03,011 --> 00:30:07,637
mean being subservient. You're
not the Padawan to the Jedi
478
00:30:07,678 --> 00:30:11,056
master. You're there to have a
conversation and learn some
479
00:30:11,096 --> 00:30:16,894
things. Your mentor will learn
from you too. I think in your
480
00:30:16,954 --> 00:30:20,962
communities, if you see someone
you admire the work they do, you
481
00:30:20,962 --> 00:30:25,722
like them well enough, or you
see a skill they have that you
482
00:30:26,164 --> 00:30:30,682
would like to cultivate not
absorb, cultivate because you've
483
00:30:30,682 --> 00:30:34,114
got to. You've got to build it.
I Think just approach them and
484
00:30:34,255 --> 00:30:38,010
ask if they'd be willing, and
then there are lots of. There
485
00:30:38,050 --> 00:30:41,096
are lots of opinions about what
makes a good mentoring
486
00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:44,163
relationship. Online, there are
lots of many models for this,
487
00:30:45,172 --> 00:30:48,347
but I think sitting down and if
they say yes then say alright,
488
00:30:48,367 --> 00:30:50,655
well, here you know, know what
you'd like to get out of it,
489
00:30:51,198 --> 00:30:56,153
know how often you'd like to
meet, and then it turns into Not
490
00:30:56,153 --> 00:31:00,472
therapy but kind of feels that
way sometimes, where you know
491
00:31:00,512 --> 00:31:04,372
you just you just work through
things and you know again You'll
492
00:31:04,372 --> 00:31:06,680
talk about professional stuff,
you'll talk about personal
493
00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:09,834
projects, that kind of thing.
But you can set those boundaries
494
00:31:09,834 --> 00:31:13,541
. But do walk into it having
some idea what you want out of
495
00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,997
it, because Mentorships don't
last forever and they are
496
00:31:17,077 --> 00:31:21,904
different than a friendship. You
may be friends with your mentor
497
00:31:21,904 --> 00:31:26,436
and that's great, but you know
I've had mentors that I was not
498
00:31:27,057 --> 00:31:29,864
friends with, usually in a
business situation. That's okay,
499
00:31:29,864 --> 00:31:31,332
too cool.
500
00:31:32,671 --> 00:31:34,775
Gene Liverman: If somebody would
like to reach out to you, to
501
00:31:35,016 --> 00:31:38,403
maybe continue this conversation
or to just contact you in
502
00:31:38,702 --> 00:31:41,494
general, how would you recommend
they find you on the internet?
503
00:31:41,935 --> 00:31:44,923
Chris Miller: The easiest is my
website. It's a ctmillernet.
504
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:49,874
It's a hodgepodge of stuff, but
you can find out when to where
505
00:31:49,894 --> 00:31:54,777
to find me. You can also find me
on the Faustodon Mastodon
506
00:31:54,836 --> 00:31:58,963
instance. I'm there as grew
proof like you might be eaten by
507
00:31:58,963 --> 00:32:05,104
a group group. Those are the
two main ways I would reach out
508
00:32:05,163 --> 00:32:08,643
to me if you wanted to find me.
I'm not hard to find you just
509
00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:09,970
you know, need to look in the
right place.
510
00:32:10,352 --> 00:32:12,104
Gene Liverman: Yeah, and I'll be
sharing include links to both
511
00:32:12,124 --> 00:32:15,057
of those on the show notes, so
anybody who's interested should
512
00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:17,665
be able to see it right in their
podcast app with without any
513
00:32:17,726 --> 00:32:20,772
trouble, or see it on the
website. Cool, thanks. Well,
514
00:32:20,794 --> 00:32:23,919
thank you very much for taking
the time today and I greatly
515
00:32:23,939 --> 00:32:27,931
appreciate it. Thank you for
having me. This is great. Before
516
00:32:27,931 --> 00:32:30,616
we go, I'd like to thank those
of you who have boosted in
517
00:32:30,656 --> 00:32:34,452
support for the show. It is very
much appreciated. This is a
518
00:32:34,492 --> 00:32:37,663
value for value podcast, which
means I rely on listeners like
519
00:32:37,702 --> 00:32:41,474
yourself contributing back to
fund it as Such. I'll never
520
00:32:41,515 --> 00:32:44,607
charge you to listen, but
producing and hosting it does
521
00:32:44,647 --> 00:32:48,836
cost money. If you got value
from this episode, I ask that
522
00:32:48,856 --> 00:32:51,903
you contribute by sending a
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00:32:52,022 --> 00:32:55,777
app like Fountain or cast a
medic, or via the support the
524
00:32:55,817 --> 00:32:58,623
show link in the show notes that
are visible in your podcast app
525
00:32:58,623 --> 00:33:02,220
. You can also find the show
notes and transcripts at
526
00:33:02,339 --> 00:33:07,175
volunteer technologist calm. If
you would like to come on the
527
00:33:07,217 --> 00:33:10,249
show or know someone I should
reach out to about being on the
528
00:33:10,269 --> 00:33:13,602
show, please send me a message
via one of the links at the
529
00:33:13,642 --> 00:33:15,990
bottom of the show notes. Thanks
for listening.
