Something Knocked Back: Spiritualism, Séances & the Ouija Board

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In St.
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Louis on the evening of July 8th, 1913, Pearl Curran and her friend Emily Grant Hutchings sat with the Ouija board resting across their knees.
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It wasn't the first time.
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For months they had treated the board as a curious parlor game.
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Its heart-shaped pointer wandered across the letters, producing strange bits and pieces, but nothing gave them much reason to believe anyone was actually speaking.
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That night, according to the account preserved afterward, something changed.
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The pointer began moving quickly and forcefully, spelling out, Many moons ago I lived.
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Again I come.
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Patience worth my name.
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The women expressed their surprise.
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But the pointer kept moving.
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The visitor told them to wait, that she wanted to speak.
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She said that if Pearl lived, then so would she, that she would make her bread beside Pearl's hearth.
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At that moment, Patience Worth was nothing more than a name spelled out, one letter at a time on a wooden board.
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But over the next 24 years, Pearl Curran would attribute nearly four million words to that name: poems, plays, short stories, and entire novels.
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At first, every word had to travel through the board.
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Soon, the board would no longer be able to keep up with the dead woman who said she was speaking through it.
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Listen closely, the old walls still speak.
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Some things are hidden, not to be forgotten, but to be kept.
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The old house remembers what others forget.
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What is remembered is most truly good.
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Listen closely, and you too may just hear voices from the attic.
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Hi, welcome to Voices from the Attic.
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I'm Terry Reed.
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I'm an author um of Paranormal Mysteries.
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I am a researcher, podcaster, mom, grandma, and uh a lover of rabbit holes.
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Lately, a total lover of rabbit holes.
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Name her Alice.
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That's right.
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Uh I am Andrew T.
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Reed.
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I am a uh writer, researcher, editor, YouTuber, podcaster, son, paranormal lover and enthusiast, and a big old giant nerd.
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I love that.
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So that was that was interesting.
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So how how did she communicate?
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Did they say if if the planchette and the board couldn't keep up with her?
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Eventually.
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It eventually so it started with the planchette, but essentially it started out as her using the board as the means of communication.
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But eventually a few different things happened with with Pearl.
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She essentially was able to s to write for patients' worth.
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There's a what do they call it?
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Automated writing or something where you close your eyes and and you write, and the spirit kind of communicates through you.
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So so I I don't know what's the turn.
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Um yeah, auto writing.
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Auto writing, thank you.
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And this is Ash, our knower of all things, our producer.
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Yep, yep.
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Um audio producer, video producer.
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He is he is the voice of reason.
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Uh, you know, he is he is the one singular brain cell holding us down, trying with all of his might to keep us centered and full of the one note of sanity and unsane insane world.
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Yes.
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Sometimes you every once in a while you might see me looking off to to where he's at, and that might be because you know, either I'm worried or he's made a face, and uh in some way, shape, or form I know that I've messed up and I need to correct myself.
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Uh so we didn't do the housekeeping.
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Welcome to Voices from the Attic.
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So glad you're here.
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Um if you like what you're hearing, subscribe or follow, or like, or tell a friend, or all of the above.
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Yeah, you can do all of it.
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Uh in fact, tell multiple friends, tell tell all your friends.
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Also, uh, we've mentioned this before, but within the next uh few weeks, uh coming October the the twenty sorry, October 30th, right, Halloween Eve, um, we will be having a special episode.
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It will be a live episode uh on YouTube live on our YouTube channel.
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So podcast listeners, you can come in and you can watch live, or you can just wait a little bit and it will be up on on various podcasts, but it won't be live on the podcast platforms.
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It's going to be essentially an ask me anything type scenario.
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So any questions that you might have, whether it is Ask us anything.
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Yeah, ask us anything.
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I mean, Andrew's cute and he has a lot of answers, but I do get to answer questions.
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The Reddit is called AMA, Ask Me Anything.
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That's kind of where it uh, but yeah, when I say me, I mean us.
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Ask us anything, whether it's about paranormal questions or our own personal beliefs about the paranormal, whatever, as well as just questions that you're curious about us personally.
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Or our books, yeah, you know, or whatever.
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Carrie Reed.
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I was gonna say, or your stories, and we'll be happy to share them.
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Yeah, yeah.
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If let us know if you do share stories that you like us to share live, let us know.
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And please send us questions because if not, Andrew and I were just gonna be babbling for an hour.
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I don't want to come with my own questions, man.
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Obviously, you've heard us babble before.
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That is true.
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That is true.
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That's but and so we can babble, but we would love to get your questions or your comments.
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Um, comment on any of the videos, or you can send it to our email account.
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It's vftic at gmail.com and uh just send us your questions.
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We would we think this would be a fun thing.
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We didn't want to do it on Halloween night because we knew you guys would all be out at parties or trigger treating or doing something like that.
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It's a Saturday.
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It's a perfect day for Halloween.
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So we're gonna do it on a Friday night.
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Uh so have your friends come over, make a party of it.
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Yeah, and uh get some nachos.
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Get some nacho friends.
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Oh, no, don't don't get nacho friends, get your friends, get good stuff to eat, do candies, and uh and join us.
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Yes, and we'll get you the time in the next couple episodes.
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Yeah, and we'll we'll we'll probably post it on our YouTube channel.
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There will be, yeah, eventually there will be a link for it on our YouTube channel.
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Obviously, the link will be there.
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The link will technically be live, but we won't be actually doing anything with it until the day of.
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If it's like a week before and somebody's there watching it, like thank you for for you know watching, but I you're kind of wasting your time a little bit.
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So today um we're gonna be talking about spiritualism, but within that whole spiritualist I do have a fun intro sentence.
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Oh, please go right there.
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If you want it to be a fun intro sentence.
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I forgot until moments before.
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If death is a door, spiritualism is the story of humanity knocking upon it.
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And hearing something knock back.
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I don't know if that got picked up on the mic or not.
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It did?
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Yes.
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Okay, good.
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So let me do that again.
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Just so you can get the full effect without me getting all excited about it.
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It's a story of humanity knocking upon that door and hearing something knock back.
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But an answer is not an identification.
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Oh, I love that.
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Okay, because that's where kind of I wanted to go while we start this.
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You know how you uh have disclaimers at the and last podcast we we disclaimed that we are not medical professionals.
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Or witches.
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Or witches.
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So this podcast with spiritualism, some of their tools, their early tools, were seances and Ouija boards and planchettes and talking boards.
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I mean, Ouija board had kind of a yeah, it there was a bit of an evolution there.
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The Ouija board is now what is used today and you know it was developed early on, but yeah, there were definitely some some roots that it had beforehand.
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And I like what you said.
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It knocks back, but you don't know who's on the other side.
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And and so I just want to make a couple well, let me let me start.
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Of course.
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Of course.
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I want you to know this, and this is a bit of a derail because that happened.
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That happens to me every once in a while, and I always get super embarrassed at like work or something.
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I I'm like, I honestly am just genuinely trying to check a message or something.
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I open up my phone and suddenly it's Instagram playing a reel on the highest volume.
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You close it and the audio follows like the audio doesn't stop until like a moment or two after the phone has been silenced.
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I just figured it was a demon trying to interrupt me.
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That too.
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My apologies.
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That's okay.
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In the old days, I would have to like buy everybody a case of something.
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I mean, we're not we're not paying you, so you know.
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That's a good point.
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You don't have to, yeah, don't don't don't feel obligated.
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But also, if you really want to buy us something, you know, don't don't feel like we're telling you not to.
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Yeah, like in like in the old A V days, like if your phone went off, if it wasn't silenced.
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Yeah, show everybody a round of something that I don't know.
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I don't drink, so yeah.
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I'll know what you're gonna get from me.
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I'll get you a nice solid IBC root beer, not sponsored yet.
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How shoving up.
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We'll leave this here.
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Everyone will know that Ash is fallible.
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He's man, he can make mistakes.
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Everyone knows.
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And everyone loves him for it.
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Yes, and everyone will now remember.
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That's right.
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So, disclaimer about seances and Ouija boards and our feeling about them.
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Yes.
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And and I've mentioned this before on earlier podcasts, but first let me start with the story.
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Because we love that.
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So we're we're starting, we're starting this early story early, early on.
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I I think we need to because it's kind of a story of warning.
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I'm can you think?
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Let me start with it because it it's been really interesting.
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When as we've been studying this topic, I ended up being Andrew.
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I ended up being the one with all the research, and he ended up being the one with all the stories, except for specifically this personal story that I had.
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And as we talk about this, you know, so I just want to make sure that I get it out there.
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You have it in your mind as you as we talk about these things that are happening.
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Sure.
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Everyone has a bias.
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I guess what I meant is we're we're not coming from an unbiased point of view.
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We are definitely biased.
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We we definitely have feelings towards some of these tools and practices that the spiritualist movement are associated with.
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Yeah, go ahead.
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And and we we do want to make sure that you know that this is how we feel that we just because we're talking about it doesn't mean that we're saying, oh yeah, everyone go out to Walmart and get yourself a Ouija board.
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Get yourself uh the famous Luigi board.
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That's right.
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So this is this is my story.
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Uh when I was in high school, I had a friend who lived a couple blocks away from me, and her parents owned a two-flat in Chicago.
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It was a brick two-flat in Chicago, and they rented the upstairs, and they lived in the first floor, and then the basement was finished, and that was their area too.
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And it was like it was a 1960s kind of um building, you know, yellow brick.
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Okay, classic, kind of kind of nice-ish.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And uh good, good people, small, you know, uh, they were um Lithuanian.
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Oh, cool.
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And so uh I thought you were gonna say they were Lutheran.
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I'm like, well, okay, that's cool.
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They were that are they as though those Lutheran Lithuanians?
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That's right.
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And and I spent a lot of time over there.
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Um in Lithuania?
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In their house.
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Sorry, I know I'm sorry.
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So anyway, um, so they got a new a new renter.
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And and at this time I was in uh you know, freshman sophomore in high school.
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The new renter was a woman, uh, a single woman who was in, oh, I don't know, her 40s or 50s.
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Okay, in high school, everybody everyone's old.
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Everyone's old.
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Yeah.
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She was in her 40s or 50s, and she invited us to come up and and just you know visit with her.
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And we were great with that.
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So we went upstairs and she showed us around her apartment, which was you know a duplicate of my friend's house because it was uh upstairs downstairs.
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Maybe I maybe I'm looking too far into things, but I do think right there, an adult person inviting minors, two minors into their to their house as something that is looked upon negatively nowadays.
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That's right.
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That's right.
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You know, so that so I do think it kind of shows a little bit of maybe the the time.
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And I I think it speaks to this woman.
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And she was looking for friends.
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And when an adult person has to look for teenagers for friends, it's something for them.
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There's something not not matured in there.
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So she brings us into the living room, and she has these two pictures on the wall, paintings on the wall.
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Okay, and they're the paintings that people paint in in black velvet.
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Usually you go to a mall and you see people selling these paintings, it's like Elvis.
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Sure.
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There's like a black velvet background or something like that.
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Okay, so like a pop, pop art.
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Okay.
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And it was like one of them was like a conquistador, you know, or a bullfighter.
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Oh, and the other was a Spanish senorita, and and they were too big, they're there were large um paintings prominently displayed.
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She's from Spain, no, she was not.
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They were named, and she said that their spirits actually lived in the apartment with her.
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Oh, and then at night they would come alive and they would be in the apartment with her.
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Okay.
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And we think, oh, that's interesting.
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And then so then she went and she brought us into the third bedroom that was a cr out of the kitchen, and in and it was furnished like a nursery.
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In the crib was uh And this is a grown woman with no kids.
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This not married, single woman, no kids.
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But she has a nursery.
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She has a nursery, and in the bed of the nursery is a baby doll.
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And it's one of the life-sized baby dolls, a toddler-sized baby doll.
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So a good bigger than it's not just walky, scary baby dolls.
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And she tells us that at night the baby doll climbs out of the crib and and walks around the house.
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And then she showed us these little shoes, leather shoes that would fit on the baby doll's feet.
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Sure.
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And and they're worn.
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Oh no, because the baby doll is walking around the house.
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And so we're thinking, huh, this is an unusual person.
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And we don't say anything to her because pretty much terrified that you don't want to say anything.
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Yeah.
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And it's like, oh, we you're completely normal.
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We are never entering into this apartment again.
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She has all of these, I mean, this stuff going on.
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And you know what?
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She might have, now that I think about it, she might have communicated with those spirits in the picture with her Ouija board.
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Okay.
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So we go back downstairs and we tell her parents about these people, this woman upstairs, and her parents don't believe a word we're saying.
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It's like, stop lying, you know, stop telling stories on this nice lady who's paying the rent, you know.
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Don't which I think it's very funny considering the episode we just uh we just did, the episode on witches.
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Uh, if you haven't watched listen to that one already, finish this one first and then go back.
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.080
But it's kind of the reverse problem, right?
00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:00.080
Where you know, children, oh, this strange individual, right?
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:01.600
It's kind of a weird person.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:02.879
They're doing witchcraft.
00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:09.759
This adult has actually told you something genuinely concerning, but because your your kids it's well, yeah, they don't believe us.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:10.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:10.879
Yeah.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:20.159
Uh long story short, on this part of the story, sure, is she set the apartment on fire and they were able to get the fire department up, stop it.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:20.799
Huh.
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.320
She got, I don't know.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.799
I was gonna say something started a fire in her apartment.
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:28.159
There was an arsonist.
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.039
Whether the arsonist was living or not is a different right.
00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:31.679
We don't know.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:32.080
Yeah.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:36.159
But she was taken away to a nice good place to stay.
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:36.720
Good.
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.159
She needed some help.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:40.159
Cleaned and repainted and stuff.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:41.679
So a year goes by.
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.399
I think it's my friend's like 16th birthday.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.720
And so it's a sleepover birthday party.
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:47.919
How old were you before?
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.399
I was like, I was a freshman, 14-ish.
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.559
I mean, I mean, before like the first proof the first half of the story, how old were you?
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:56.000
Like 14 or 15.
00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.240
And so this is a year, like a year later.
00:16:58.399 --> 00:16:59.440
So I was 16.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:00.960
Yeah, because I was like 16.
00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:02.799
I th I was thinking 16 for the first part.
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.799
Okay, so third 14 or 15.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:05.359
Okay.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.839
Anyway, yeah, I would I guess it's my birthday is in October, so I was always the baby of the class.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:14.079
So, you know, because at that time, October, they still let you in.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:15.119
So I was always the youngest.
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:17.039
I had the opposite problem.
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.559
So we have her sleepover birthday party.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:24.000
And for some reason, she thinks it's a good idea.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:24.960
And you know what?
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:27.119
I gotta say, this was mid-70s.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.599
Everybody thought having a seance was a good idea.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.920
They did all those goofy, you know, sleepover parties.
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:34.400
Yeah.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.640
And some of them were like you could lift levitate people using two fingers.
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:40.079
Oh, I never did that.
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:41.519
I probably wouldn't have two fingers.
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:42.480
That would have been super cool.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:42.799
Yeah.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.720
But I want to learn that burglar trick.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:45.279
Yeah.
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.440
I would always joke with Rachel that this is what happens when girls get together anyway.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:51.119
It it is.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.480
And so they wanted to have hey girls, let's do some girly things.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.559
Like summoning the happens every time.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:17:59.279
Right?
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:00.160
Every time.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.119
Either pillow fights or summoning the devil.
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:08.160
Those are the two constants of every single girl's slumber party.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:12.400
They decide that it the funnest thing in the world will be to have a stance.
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.640
And and I I have to say, because of who I am and the experiences I've had in my life, that wasn't a fun idea.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:19.359
Oh, what?
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:21.279
What do you mean?
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:27.759
Going going in a in a circle in a dark room with a bunch of people that you you might know to vaguely don't know.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:28.160
Right.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.000
So we're in Where's your sense of adventure?
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:30.400
I know.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:31.119
Yeah.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.279
So we're in this basement and it's it's a finished basement.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:40.960
And we're in this room that's um, you know, so the debate basement's divided up into these rooms.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:49.599
And I don't think if this room had a window, it was one of those like way up high where the ground level is like a basement window where yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:55.359
And it's it's not there's no drafts in this, you know, there's no drafts going through this basement.
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:55.920
Okay.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:57.359
It it's nighttime.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.160
There's she's got a candle in the middle of the circle.
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:07.440
Where I think we're all on the floor and having the sands, and she's asking if anyone's there with us.
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:16.720
And this candle shoots up instead of like uh, you know, an inch or two flame, it's like a foot and a half flame.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:17.200
Oh my gosh.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:18.480
Suddenly shoots.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:24.160
All the girls scream, she reaches over and flips on the light, but the light doesn't come on.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:25.279
Oh no.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.559
So I'm not athletically inclined.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:40.960
I hurtled over that entire circle of seated girls and made it to the the doorway where the light was, and I flicked on the light like immediately.
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.160
And did that light turn on?
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.039
It that light turned on.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.720
So that's interesting because if if it's like, you know, it wasn't a power outage.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:53.839
No, yeah, nobody flicked off uh any kind of so that it was that switch specifically that was acting funky.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:56.480
Interesting.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.000
But yeah, once I hurtled over, maybe I scared the spirit, you know.
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.839
It's like that frizzy haired little girl's coming at me.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.039
She's turning down on me like a linebacker.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:08.160
I gotta get out of here.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:09.200
I gotta get out of here.
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.319
So I turned on.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.559
We didn't uh do it anymore.
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:13.920
No seances.
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:15.279
Let me go to now.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.559
So that's a teenage girl's experiences of scary things.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:25.359
But um, so Dale Casmeric, who we've mentioned before, we we Dale's just an amazing person.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:26.640
He's agreed to be on the podcast.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:27.359
We just gotta do it.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.440
We just have to figure out how to do it, how to remotely get somebody in.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:32.960
But Dale Or we just bring him.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.480
Oh, I don't, yeah, I don't know if I He's only in Chicago.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:37.039
I don't know.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.319
I don't know if Finn will give up.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.119
We we can we can find a third party area.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.680
I mean, we're we're uh we'll talk about that later.
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.039
But Dale, if you're listening, somehow, some way we will get you on the podcast.
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.400
So so Dale Kasmeric is the um president of the Ghost Research Society in Chicago.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.680
And he has been cool.
00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:00.960
Such a cool he has been investigating ghosts since the 1970s.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:14.319
And he has been on like Oprah, he's been on shows with William Shatner, he's been on the news, he is he has been on probably every single Chicago news station and radio station talking about his investigations.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.279
And he just came back from a trip to England, to England.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:29.119
So he and I met at a convention at the Love is Murder Convention, which which is a writer's convention, and I was speaking about ebooks and writing ebooks and you know the benefits of that.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.440
And he was speaking about ghost stuff, yeah, and he had EVPs.
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.079
His his presentation was so much cooler than mine.
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:37.359
I mean, I love you, mom.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.119
I know which presentation I want to go to.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:40.000
That's exactly.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:40.799
Oh, yeah.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.680
And so he actually sat in on my presentation.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.279
That's awesome, which was really nice.
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.920
And I said obviously sat in on his because he had pictures.
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:49.519
Yeah.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:50.240
Oh, that's cool.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:51.920
Yeah, it was EVP.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.759
I for those of you not listen uh not watching, or not, yeah, those of you not watching YouTube but are listening, I'm gonna stand up for.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.640
For those who are on YouTube, I am wearing a new shirt.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:13.039
I think I just EVP'd myself my pants.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.000
Oh, you're right.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:14.400
My pants.
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:15.599
I you can't read it.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:16.319
Yeah, no.
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.720
I think I just EVP'd my pants is the I love that.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:19.839
Is the joke of the shirt.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.079
Anyway, sorry, I just EVP.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.039
So afterwards, Dale and I got to chat.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.279
He again, he is just the nicest man.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:29.519
We were talking about the ghost in our house.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:33.599
He was the one that told me about seeing things out of the corner of your eye and stuff.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:34.079
Yeah.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:43.440
Anyway, so Which if you don't know about that, we do mention that idea of the why you can see things in the corner of your eye that you might not be able to see when you look at it.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:43.759
Right.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.839
Doesn't mean that it's not there, it's just you can't see it.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:47.680
And if you don't know, ask us the question.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.920
We'll explain it in that open mic conversation on Halloween Eve.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:52.319
Yes.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:59.839
Anyway, so Dale tells me, we're we're talking about a bunch of stuff, and he we get on the subject of Ouija boards.
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:13.440
And he tells me that he's got a form that people have to fill out before he will consider investigating their home or you know, he's done all these asylums, he does these hospital.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:15.599
I mean, he's he's the guy that people call.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.200
If they have used a Ouija board, he won't go there.
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:20.000
Interesting.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:25.519
And he says it's it, what did he it's like opening your phone and just pressing buttons.
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.480
And you don't know who you get on the other side.
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:29.119
Yes.
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:39.759
And he said he he would not, he would never use a Ouija board and he won't go into a place where they have allowed a Ouija board because you don't know.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:51.759
And and I have to, I have to um believe that because of what Dale does and how much he has done, he has encountered entities that were not nice.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:52.319
I'm sure.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.359
And I and I, you know, I'd be curious to know if he has always had that belief.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.000
Not belief, but like that questionnaire.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:01.359
If yeah, if that rule.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:14.400
If you've always if he's always had that rule about Ouija boards, or if that rule was introduced because of an or multiple experiences that he had while on a on a hunt.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:34.240
And and you know, it's interesting because when you kind of think of a spiritualism, which we we're gonna be talking about, and the the early days of spiritualism, a seance was a perfect place for charlatans to get information because it's a dark room, it's a table usually covered by a heavy tablecloth.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:40.640
So things could be hidden, wires could be hidden, you know, devices that move the table could be hidden.
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:45.599
That's the thing about both both seances and magic tricks, magicians' tricks.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.839
When people go to both of those places, I won't say when they're on a seance, they want to get fooled, but they want something to happen.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:52.240
Right.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.200
When people go to a magic show, they generally want to be fooled.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.000
I mean, they're they're gonna try to look for the for the wires and everything.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:03.599
But more often than not, I know when I go, I'm I enjoy it the most when I'm like, I have no clue how they did that.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:04.480
That was awesome.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:06.799
With seances, similar but different.
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.920
I want to believe, generally speaking, there are people who go in there with you know skeptical point of view.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:22.480
But even they, even if they have ways to disprove things, I would almost say that there is probably for most people a hidden hope that they're wrong and that this seance is legit.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:24.400
Or they're so wrapped up in fear.
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:25.359
That's very too.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.400
Because or grief or whatever emotion.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:38.480
You know, as we kind of talk about this, the the other predatory thing about some charlatan seance individuals, they are preying upon people's grief.
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:46.000
You know, they if somebody goes to them because they genuinely want to communicate with somebody they love who is no longer with them, right?
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:52.240
It's so easy to manipulate that because you you're vulnerable, you're in a vulnerable position.
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.440
There's a m there's a movie called Harry Price Ghost Hunter.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.279
I think I I watched it through Brit Box.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.960
I've watched it.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:00.000
And then I watched it again.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:00.640
Oh, did you?
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:05.839
I've watched it a couple times now just to make sure that and I'm very curious to see how accurate it is to real life.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:06.799
It's not okay.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.160
I was yeah, I didn't think it was.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:08.960
Yeah, it's not.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:10.640
They really took a lot of liberties.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:16.400
For example, in in the Harry Price Ghost Hunter, his wife is dies and she goes to an asylum.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.480
His wife outlived him, you know.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.200
So yeah, they did take some liberties, but some liberties.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:24.079
Some liberties.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:35.680
But the one of the the cool things was uh during that time, you know, World War I had just ended, people had lost and then and Spanish, the Spanish flu, too.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:54.319
People they've lost family members, they've lost sons, they've lost husbands, and and these spiritualists are are going to these auditoriums, they're selling tickets for you to get the opportunity to speak to your loved ones, and people are uh they're they're selling out these theaters, these auditoriums.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:27:00.319
And then you know, you get a spiritualist, and this is what Harry Price kind of basically showed the behind the scenes.
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.319
So he stands up on the stage and he says, Okay, I'm I'm getting a name, a name.
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:05.680
Uh, is it James?
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:07.359
Is it Jimmy?
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.559
Did somebody call?
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.960
And and this woman raises her hand.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:20.880
Well, if you've got a an audience of 400 people, somebody's gonna have an statistically John James, those are some of the the most common names in in English.
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:25.200
Then he looks at the person who raised her hand and she's wearing a cross.
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:28.640
And he says, he says that you've been praying for him.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:29.839
Well, yes, I have.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.559
Well, of course.
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:36.079
Yeah, because she's wearing and basically so he's reading, and and he was young when he died.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.319
Yes, yes, he was, and he died at war.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:38.640
Yeah.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.680
I mean, the odds of guessing, and if he's wrong, then he can say, Oh no, he had a friend who died at war, you know.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:52.160
So or or if he's wrong, then that was somebody else in this room I'm picking up from a different source.
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.359
Especially with the bit the bigger the audience, the more likely you are to be right.
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.000
Exactly.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:05.599
And so I used to lead music for the the little children, the primary in our church, that was one of my my callings.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:16.640
And we had a children's Sunday school that had about 40 kids, and we had a songbook that probably had a hundred songs, maybe in it-ish.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.839
But there was like 20, 25 that were everybody always sang that.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:22.160
Right.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:27.920
I would tell the kids that they needed to close their eyes, especially when I needed them to be quiet down and settle down.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:29.680
I would my head hurts, everyone.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:30.559
Let's play a fun game.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:31.119
That's right.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.640
I'd say, close your eyes and think about your favorite song.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:36.720
And they would close their eyes, they'd be very quiet.
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:38.880
And then they would think about their favorite songs.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:44.640
And I would say, uh, is somebody thinking about head, shoulders, knees, and toes?
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.559
And their eyes would open like, oh, she's magic.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.960
And it was just, it was just playing odds.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.880
And now you heard it here, folks.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:59.440
My mother promoted spiritualist ideals in another Christian church.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:01.920
No, I just was uh playing the odds.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:03.279
And so they love that.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:04.480
And they would get really quiet.
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.759
Oh, if you're making noise, I can't hear your thoughts.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.119
So it was wonderful.
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:12.000
And they they just thought I it was magic.
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:13.279
They just thought it was great.
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:22.240
But that's the same idea is you get a large enough group of people, you read the people, and you're able to figure things out.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:22.720
Yeah.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:32.640
And some of these spiritualists would have people in the audience that would listen for other clues, but there is a lot of charlatanism in this.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:46.480
And so as we dive into the specifics, well, first of all, I think going back to the to the Ouija board thing before we continue forward, yes, spiritualism emerged during a very particular specific time in technology and in innovation and all those things as well.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:30:03.519
And so I do think that part of both of our biases against seances as well as against Ouija boards is that a lot of the other things that the spiritualist movement introduced, and then, you know, other ideas later carried on.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:09.119
We'll talk about, you know, ghost hunting and those kinds of things because spiritualism really was kind of open endorsed to that.
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:20.000
Yeah, it was one of the the the ancestors, I I would think probably the the biggest contributing factor to the the modern ghost hunting technology that we have today.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:28.240
But there's a difference between observing, observation, and uh interaction.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:36.480
And I think even the taps and things like that where you where you talk to it, yes, it is asking, and then there is a response.
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.839
But it's it's a less controlled environment, I would say.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:45.519
It's you're not you're not really directly interacting, you're asking and and hoping for something to happen.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:57.279
The the seance and the Ouija board set things up so that either you can't easily fake things because of the situations involved, and so it's way too easy to get duped while you're in a seance.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:08.960
But also, if the seance is is genuinely accurate, you're kind of opening uh a door that you don't fully understand and you're interacting with things that you don't understand as opposed to just observing.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.519
And that's the same exact thing with the with the Ouija board.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:21.519
You're you're literally inviting something to answer you in a way that is it's too close to an interaction.
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:28.079
We're not saying that every single time that people interact with people uh with people interact with the Ouija board, we're not saying every single time it's bad.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:28.640
And you know what?
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:40.079
Honestly, I know that there are a lot of people out there who have had fantastic experiences with with Ouija boards and they, you know, they they found a channel that they feel comfortable with, they like to access a lot.
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.359
And and you know what?
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.279
I believe that could have happened.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:54.799
For me personally, I fear that because I don't fully know what I'm interacting with, I can't ever fully trust what is being said.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:13.440
And that's besides all of the other, you know, psychological elements of the Ouija board and how easy it can be to manipulate and to get the answers that you want to hear or to get the answers that you believe are true because you're kind of accidentally, even if you don't believe you are, you're accidentally interacting with that planchette.
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:26.559
It's it's like on the internet where you know that there's all these arrests of these um 40-year-old men who are pretending that they're 13-year-old girls and they set something up for somebody to meet.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.799
Are you saying people are getting catfished by ghosts, spiritually catfished?
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:46.720
If we as humans can do that on the internet where there's a little bit more tracking available than a Ouija board, yeah, why would we believe that whoever is on the other side of the Ouija board is exactly who they're telling us they are?
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:55.759
I do have a brief summary of the Phillip experiment, which is something that is often referenced in other pods, specifically Astonishing Legends talk about that a lot.
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:57.359
They actually have a whole episode dedicated to the Philippines.
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:06.799
Is that the one where the man, I think it's through a Ouija board, contacts it, and it's this woman, and she ends up committing suicide.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.559
I believe that was one of the stories that came up during this research.
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:11.599
I didn't include it.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.079
You know, tragedy happens, tragedy is going to happen.
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:22.559
I I And you don't know what his state of mind was or anything, but yeah, and I tried to avoid lulled into this relationship.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:23.519
He didn't know.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:27.039
Well, and and so the Philip experiment, it was an actual experiment.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:36.720
Everyone knew at the forefront this event that they were it was a creation, and they were seeing what potentially they could create.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.680
The the experiment kind of explores the idea of tulpas and things like that.
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:42.079
Experiment took place in the 70s, so with the 1970s.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:42.400
Okay.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:47.440
And so it's not during that spiritualist movement, and I don't think that they are associated with the spiritualist.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:53.200
They are, though, associated with the the the psychical, the Society of Psychical Research.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:53.920
I believe so.
00:33:54.079 --> 00:34:01.279
At the very least, the the Society of Psychical Research has commented on the book that was published about this Philip experiment.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:08.800
But um, I mention it because some of the spiritual a lot of the spiritualist ideas that are talked about.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.679
In fact, one of the things that I wrote as a note, practitioners describe controls.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:27.599
When when we talk in some of the stories, we'll mention the idea of somebody says this is a control, or the control changed, or you know, practitioners describe controls as deceased personalities managing the medium's body and the seance.
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.360
So essentially the control was the quote unquote guide.
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:32.159
Spirit guide.
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:35.280
The spirit guide that the that the the medium relied upon.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:35.679
Right.
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:48.719
A lot of these, the the two stories specifically, where you know there would be something that would probably be considered a control, when they give a name, often people will double check, verify, and often that person never actually existed.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:49.039
Right.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.119
And so then people say, Oh, it's a hoax.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:59.440
But Philip Experiment kind of asks the question, is it a hoax or is it something else, a tulpa or something along those lines?
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.440
A tulpa being a being that you manifested.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:03.760
Right.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:07.840
You believed it so hard it became reality.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.639
We should probably actually start talking about spiritualism.
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:20.639
I know you've got basically the I'm gonna I'm gonna start with many people believe that spiritualism brings started with the Fox sisters, who were in in the United States, Maggie and Kate Fox.
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.840
Definitely one of the most well-known and earlier stories.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:26.960
They begin communicating with mysterious wrappings.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:33.840
But the idea behind spiritualism bit dates back to the 16, 1700s.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:43.440
And this is Emmanuel Swedenberg, who is a scientist turned mystic, who claimed he could visit the spirit world and communicate with the dead.
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:53.119
His writings helped establish the idea of an organized continuing afterlife inhabited by recognizable personalities.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:00.320
So before that, uh especially in the United States, kind of Calvinistic, it was like Puritan.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.519
It was like you go to heaven or you go to hell.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:03.920
Yeah.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:08.159
And depending on which, you know, Calvinists, for example, you didn't even get to choose.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:11.119
It was kind of preordained whether you were going to heaven or not.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:12.159
No matter what you did.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.199
You could have been the best person, but oh, sorry.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:21.360
The idea is that God knew that you were going to be the best person, so you would go to heaven, but it was preordained.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:31.119
And I think part of it is also because the whole idea that God knows everything and so that He knows what actions you're gonna take, as opposed to, you know, you it it kind of blended the idea of agency.
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:38.239
So essentially, if you were a good person, you were probably gonna go to heaven, but that's because God knew you were a good person and he knew the choices you were gonna make.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:38.480
Right.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:44.639
This idea was that there was a continuing afterlife and you had your own personality.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:45.760
Progression, yes.
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:47.360
Yeah, you kept your personality.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:49.760
You didn't you you don't just go and rest afterward.
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:56.159
Uh about that same time in the late like 1770s, there was Franz mesmer.
00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:01.360
And if you ever think of the word mesmerized, it came comes from old Franz.
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:02.719
And old Franz.
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:03.519
Old Franz.
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:06.400
I got mesmerized, I got franzed.
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:14.400
Mesmer proposes an invisible force affecting living beings, and he uses animal magnetism in that same thing.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:14.960
Okay.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:22.079
Mesmeric trances later become associated with clairvoyance and alleged spirit communication.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.639
Is that also the root of hypnotism as well?
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:30.159
Because hypnotism is a scientifically proven thing that happens to the majority of people.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.880
There are people who can't be hypnotized.
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:42.079
It seems mesmer mesmerizing or being being put into a trance seems very similar to hypnotism.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.400
It's not the same thing, just different wording.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:49.119
Then you have Andrew Jackson Davis, and he's born in 1826.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:50.159
What a what a name.
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:55.760
What a name.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:06.639
He begins in in about 1843, he begins entering mesmeric trances and claiming clairvoyant abilities.
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:13.119
And then 1844, he says he encounters the spirits of Swedenborg, who we talked about.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.760
But then also who has passed away at this point, correct?
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.079
Yeah, he passed away in 1772.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:18.400
Okay.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:23.440
And Galen, and Galen was, I think, a Roman or Greek physician.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:25.519
Physician, okay, not philosopher, physician.
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:26.159
Yes.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:38.159
And then he publishes a book called The Principles of Nature, where he describes a progressive spirit world and communication between living people and spirits.
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.519
And the original book was published in 1847.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:51.119
Though during that whole Jackson's Mesmer time in New York, there was this what did you call it?
00:38:51.199 --> 00:39:03.519
The second the the I don't know if that was the particular time, but the second Great Awakening happened, I believe, in the between the 17, late 1700s to early 18ths.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.920
During during that time a lot of religions kind of propped up.
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.159
This was happening during all this time too.
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.719
So people were exploring spiritual their spiritual identities.
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.119
Yes.
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:22.239
And they were there was so much religious fervor and and and a lot of questions that people felt like typical religions couldn't answer.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:22.559
Right.
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:23.840
So they were looking for these.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.800
There was there was an act of pining for these answers.
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:31.360
And people weren't happy with the idea of you don't really choose.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:35.920
You know, they weren't happy with not being part of their eternal progression.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.800
And they didn't like the idea that death and then that's it.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:39.280
That's it.
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:39.519
Yeah.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:40.239
I could see it.
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:46.639
They don't like the idea that, yeah, once once you die, all the the points you've collected that determines that's it.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.519
There's no there's no chance for change after this world.
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:50.000
Right.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.920
About that same time, 1847, 1848, the telegraph was invented.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:05.599
And so you had people sending invisible messages through a line by going tap tap, tap, tap, tap.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:14.719
Then the Fox sisters, Maggie and Kate Fox, begin communicating with tap tap, tap, tap, tap.
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:15.760
Interesting.
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:21.280
And this becomes the conventional beginning of modern spiritualism.
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:28.079
I wanna I wanna kind of expound on that idea a little bit, and it's very short.
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:37.119
During this time, telegraphy and and telecommunication technology, as well as other media technology rapidly evolved.
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:45.760
If you notice, there is spiritual spiritualist language repeatedly borrows from new communication technologies.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:53.679
Messages, codes, wires, batteries, vibrations, spiritual telegraph was even communicated.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:03.840
Energy and and all these wavelengths and signal and even the form of communication, like you mentioned, tap tap tap tap tap was very Morse code-like.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.000
Which I believe Morse code has always been the the the way that the telegraph worked.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:08.719
Right, right.
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:17.199
Um, and then later on, you know, we'll kind of get into it, but photography then promised uh a mechanical witness.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:23.519
Later, radio, recording, and television inherited some of those same ideas, same promises.
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:30.400
You can record ghost, capture ghost footage, capture a weird shadow going from one area to the other.
00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:44.880
You know, we kind of mentioned this already, but then kind of going back to other things that the spiritualist movement used a lot, the seance cabinet was a great medium in the theatrical sense, an arranged space controlling light, bodies, access, and attention.
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:47.519
And so there was a lot of that going on.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:54.000
And I also want to make sure that it's clear as we talk about these stories, there was a lot of hoaxes that happened.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:42:02.960
We're not gonna say no to that because there were the spiritualist movement, unfortunately, if you have people in a certain mindset, it's gonna be easy to manipulate.
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:19.519
But you you also have to realize that that is the time where you also had the salesmen with their horse-drawn carriages sell selling liniment that's gonna cure all of your snake oil was all over the place in all forms, shapes, sizes.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.800
People were trying to make a buck any way that they could.
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.039
Right.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.639
It almost seemed like some of it wasn't even for the money, it was for the credit.
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:29.599
They could trick anyone, they could sell anyone into anything.
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:44.159
But so a lot of the stories that I'm I'm gonna try to focus on are kind of maybe not exceptions necessarily, but the spiritualist movement, I think, is often dismissed because of the amount of hoaxes and the amount of charlatans that were attached to it.
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:49.440
But there were plenty of stories that had gray area.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.880
There, there were stories that had things that couldn't be fully explained.
00:42:53.119 --> 00:43:02.239
This podcast episode isn't intended to continue the pattern of dismissing all the influential people in the spiritualist movement.
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:14.239
This this episode is absolutely to dive into some of the the the gray areas, the nuance, to to say, you know, this could absolutely have been faked, potentially, or we don't know.
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:26.159
As people who've had experiences of their own, sure, you know, with people who have left this earth, it would be hypocritical of us to say, well, no, these are all or left this plane of existence.
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:26.559
Yes.
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:33.679
Maybe I depending on that, depending on on your belief in what where the spirit works or no longer alive.
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:34.480
Yes.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:39.920
You want to be able to use, and it's sounds funny to say this scientific method.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:40.159
Yeah.
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:47.920
But you want to be able to apply logic and scientific method to distinguish truth from error.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.679
And and you want to do it in as much of a controlled situation.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.519
I have another story real quick.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.760
When I first started writing books, you know, the local paper was wonderful about doing every time a new book would come out, they'd
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.920
You know, they could interview me.
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:03.599
I mean, it was advertising Freeport.
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:04.159
That makes sense.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:05.760
Yeah, that's that's true.
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:13.679
And so um, there was a fellow who moved into the community and saw one of the articles and contacted me, and he had purchased an old farmhouse.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.280
Ah, I think I know this story.
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:17.199
Outside of uh Freeport.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.960
He asked me to come over and check out his farmhouse and I was like, uh, no, that's that's okay.
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:23.760
I don't know you.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:26.400
I don't just it's kind of weird.
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:26.719
Yeah.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:32.239
And then he he said he had a haunted farmhouse and he Well that changes everything.
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:34.719
Well, yeah, then for sure I want to come over.
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:46.400
And then he said uh what he wanted to do was start advertising it and having people come to his haunted farmhouse and pay for weekends there or you know, overnight stays.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:51.119
And he wanted me to come in and he would pay me to be there with these people.
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:53.039
And I was like, you know, that's not my gig.
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:53.840
That's that's okay.
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:00.639
You know, I kind of kept an eye on that property because actually I had a friend who knew a girl that grew up on that property.
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.039
They had never had paranormal experiences.
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.320
Her grandparents lived there, she visited all the time.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:09.519
They had never ever had paranormal experiences in that farmhouse.
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.480
It was interesting, it was just a cute old farmhouse.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:19.280
And then I think it was the Milwaukee Paranormal Investigation Group came down because he invited them.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:25.280
They did a great report and they said something like it felt like he was inviting, trying to invite things.
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:27.119
That's never come in.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:40.559
He was using seances and Ouija boards to connect to two entities that and and invite them to because he wanted because he wanted haunted paranormal tourism.
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.599
I feel like this is too too small of an area.
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.800
It's it's not metropolitan enough.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:50.639
You know, but you get have the people coming from Galena, from Chicago to Galena, so they could they could make a trip.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.880
I guess that's fair, but even still, Galena has its own hodgepodge of haunted places.
00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:02.159
You don't need to leave Galena to to get but and he had come from Chicago and purchased this, so maybe he didn't realize the demographics.
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:08.400
Anyway, he kind of burned a whole bunch of bridges in like the paranormal community because of what he was doing.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:24.400
And then uh I had somebody tell me that he had asked their permission to use their event space to do some of these paranormal things because he couldn't use his house anymore because it was too active and too hostile.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:31.199
And I know some paranormal investigators who have gone in there and said, you know, you need to get this place blessed.
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:36.639
Probably you need to burn it to the holy fire, yeah, you know, cleansing.
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:54.320
So he and I met at an event um where I was hosting, it was it was for a fundraiser, and I was telling ghost stories at this dinner, and the dinner was it was an exclusive dinner, and I was the hostess telling ghost stories.
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:55.440
And the hostess with the most.
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:56.480
Oh, thank you.
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:02.159
And then and he and his partner, of course, came late and sat sat down at the table with.
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:06.239
I know, I know.
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:07.440
It's just come on the earth.
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:08.159
It's rude.
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:09.280
Um, anyway.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:15.280
So he and his partners he and his partner sit down, and his partner's from out of town.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:16.480
She has no idea who I am.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:16.880
Sure.
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:24.800
I'm telling my ghost stories, you know, because that's what people paid for, you know, to come and sit with me and have ghost stories and have dinner.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:27.199
And then afterwards, they were gonna go on a tour.
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:34.400
So anyway, we were there, and she turns, she looks at the across the table at me and said, And who are you?
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.239
And it wasn't in that really nice, oh hey, who are you?
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:40.079
It was who are you?
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:45.199
And it was so cute because one of my readers was obviously across from her and said, Oh, you don't know her.
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:46.719
Nice, that's Terry Reed.
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:47.599
It was very nice.
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:48.400
Love that.
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:52.880
So then I'm telling stories and I get to the Ouija board part and I say the same thing.
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:56.880
This fellow says, Well, I disagree with that.
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:01.119
And he said, If if you're trained on them, you can use them.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.360
And I'm thinking, who who trained you on Ouija board?
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:06.320
Like Milton Bradley?
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.960
I mean, who you didn't know that Milton Bradley has a course on Ouija board?
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:09.679
No, yes.
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:10.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:12.639
It's sent by what's his face in our last podcast.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:14.000
Oh, uh uh Dolores.
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:14.960
Del Dolores.
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:22.400
Dolores sends you uh uh at home training you on um the Ouija boards, yeah.
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:36.239
And so I do want to get a Luigi board uh branded as Luigi Well, and there's the joke about the somebody gets a rug that's a Ouija board and there summons a de a demon.
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:37.599
Yep, I've yep.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:38.159
Oops.
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:43.280
So anyway, I I don't know why I had to bring well, it is using it properly.
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.320
It's like you cannot really be trained on this.
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:52.559
Yeah, it's it's it's a blind leading the blind when it comes to things of this of the of the paranormal nature.
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:54.320
So go ahead and talk about the fox sisters.
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:56.079
Let's talk about let's talk about the fox sisters.
00:48:56.159 --> 00:49:01.760
And I might be doing some uh this is a longer one, so I might be doing some editing on the fly of the story as as I do stuff.
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:02.079
Okay.
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:10.960
Uh in 1847, John and Margaret Fox moved with their two youngest daughters into a rented farmhouse in Hydesville, New York.
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:13.920
Margareta, usually called Maggie, was 14.
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.679
Her younger sister Catherine, or Kate, was eleven.
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:22.559
By the end of March 1848, the family had begun hearing noises at night.
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:25.760
Knocks against the walls, the floor, and the furniture.
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.360
John Fox searched the house but reportedly found no explanation.
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:35.280
The sounds continued, and on the evening of July 31st, the girls decided to answer them.
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:44.400
According to the family story preserved later by their older sister Leia, Kate clapped her hands and challenged the unseen noisemaker.
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:45.599
She said, Mr.
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.440
Splitfoot, do as I do.
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:48.719
Mr.
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:53.760
Splitfoot, in case you're curious, is an old nickname for the devil due to you know the cloven hooves.
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:55.119
Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:55.280
Okay.
00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:01.440
But who whatever Kate thought she was speaking to, the sound apparently copied her.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.840
When she stopped, it stopped.
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.679
Maggie tried another pattern, counting aloud and clapping four times.
00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:10.239
Four knocks answered her.
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:14.000
Their mother, Margaret Fox, began asking questions of her own.
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:16.719
She asked the sound to count.
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:19.840
She asked it to give the ages of the her of her children.
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:25.199
When it appeared to answer correctly, she asked whether the noise was being made by a human being.
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:26.639
There was no response.
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.440
Then she asked whether it was a spirit.
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:31.440
Two nocks answered.
00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:33.199
I'm assuming two meant yes.
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:33.599
Yes.
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.960
A neighbor was summoned.
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:36.000
Not like, you know.
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:37.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.719
No, they they brought a neighbor over, then another.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:46.320
Before long, the fox home was crowded with people asking questions and listening for replies.
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:55.440
Through numerical answers, yes or no questions, and the slow recitation of the alphabet, the visitors gradually assembled a story.
00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:59.280
The presence claimed that it had once been a traveling peddler.
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:07.280
It had supposedly been murdered inside the house several years earlier, robbed of$500, and buried beneath the cellar floor.
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:08.639
This is an important detail.
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:11.119
The spirit not simply introduced itself and tell its story.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:17.280
The people in the room proposed possibilities, listed letters, and interpreted the knocks.
00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:20.639
So she asked if it was human and it didn't answer.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:21.119
Yes.
00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.760
And asked if it was a spirit and it said yes.
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.320
But now it's saying it was a human.
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:29.519
Does it not consider itself a human anymore because it's dead?
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:30.000
I think.
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:31.440
Or because it never was a human.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:40.480
I think the implicate their implication, I'm sure, was asking if it's a human meant are you alive human being as opposed to a dead spirit.
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:42.000
Hugging in the walls.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:42.880
Right, exactly.
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:43.199
Yeah.
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:44.880
Are you are you are you alive?
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:46.239
It's essentially what they ask.
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:47.280
Now you're right.
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:49.679
The wording was specifically, are you a human being?
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:52.719
Which could also be interpreted as were you a human being.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:53.280
Right.
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:58.480
And the answer, if the answer is no, that changes things quite significantly.
00:51:58.559 --> 00:51:58.800
Yes.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:11.119
Uh especially considering then it later on actively lied about well, I mean, if if it says it's no longer a human being, it actively lied about this this scenario, the story that it that people were proposing.
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:16.480
And and like like I said in in the story, it reciting its tale.
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:26.480
People were asking questions and and kind of making insinuations based on the answers provided, as well as it there was an alphabet as well that was provided.
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:29.039
And so it did, it was able to spell out a few things.
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:31.519
Some things, but a lot of it was group interpretation.
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:32.400
Group interpretation.
00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:33.519
Yes.
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:34.000
Yeah.
00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:37.440
Sometimes a question was reversed until a response came as well.
00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:40.639
I don't know what that means necessarily, but you know, that's what was reported.
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:43.199
Some questions, sometimes a question was reversed.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:53.440
That does not prove that the answers were deli were deliberately manipulated, but it does show how easily the people asking the questions could help construct the story they believed they were uncovering.
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:56.480
They bought into it because they were coming up with some of the details.
00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:57.599
They were filling in some of those holes.
00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:57.840
Right.
00:52:58.559 --> 00:52:59.360
Could you have been murdered?
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:00.079
Yes, I could have.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:00.559
Yes, yeah.
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:01.519
He was murdered.
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:02.880
Yeah, but but we don't remember you.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:03.840
Were you a peddler?
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:04.480
Yes, I was.
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:05.039
Yes, I was.
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:06.880
Within weeks, an attorney named E.
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.039
E.
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:12.719
Lewis visited Hydesville and collected statements from the Fox's neighbors and former residents of the house.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:17.440
His pamphlet is the closest surviving source we have to the original events.
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.320
It contains named adults who said they heard noises.
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:23.519
Some claim the Knox answered personal questions correctly.
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:27.760
Others searched the house and cellar without locating their source.
00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:37.199
At least one of these witnesses admitted that not everyone present thought the explanation had to be supernatural, but no one could demonstrate exactly how the sounds were being produced.
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:40.800
This brings me, this brings to mind the Bell Witch story.
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:42.079
So just saying.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:46.880
Curiously, Lewis's pamphlet does not contain statements from Maggie or Kate.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:48.239
It does not even name them.
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:49.440
Oh, okay.
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:51.519
The famous moment when Kate challenges Mr.
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:54.159
Splitfoot comes from later family accounts.
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:54.960
Oh, interesting.
00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:00.480
So the earliest documentation establishes that numerous people reported hearing puzzling noises in the Fox house.
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:06.480
It does not give us a controlled observation of the girls, nor does it prove that the noises came from a dead man.
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.119
Just people heard noises in this house.
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:12.559
The peddler became known in later versions as Charles B.
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:17.920
Rosna or Rosna, although no missing peddler by that name has ever been identified.
00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:26.000
The earliest reports produced only the initials C B, and even those emerged through the laborious questioning of the alleged spirit.
00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:30.960
But the lack of a body or an identifiable victim did nothing to slow the story.
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:40.400
The Fox family left the farmhouse and Maggie and Kate were taken to Rochester, New York, where their much older sister Leia became their organizer and manager.
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:43.119
The mysterious rappings followed them.
00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:46.480
And you know, this is something that that some people report.
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:48.480
It's not like the building was haunted necessarily.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:51.440
It sounds like the rapping stopped when they it it followed them.
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.079
They could have potentially been haunted or something else.
00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:55.760
Or they invited the haunting.
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:56.800
Or they invited the haunting.
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:57.039
Yes.
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:57.920
That's true too.
00:54:58.239 --> 00:54:58.400
Yeah.
00:54:58.480 --> 00:54:58.639
Yes.
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.039
Which I will say it doesn't sound like they had seances.
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:03.360
There were some weird things always going on in that house.
00:55:03.519 --> 00:55:10.079
They just happened to ask out loud the questions, which I think asking questions out loud isn't necessarily interacting.
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:11.440
I mean, it is, but it's not.
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:12.159
You know what I mean?
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:18.800
It I feel like there is a bit of a difference there because it's not like you are doing any kind of ritual to open up.
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:31.519
Because I mean, honestly, if just speaking out loud is interacting, then I interact with things all the time because I talk to myself or I talk out loud, or I've, you know, told things that I felt like were somewhere.
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:33.199
Hey, you're not allowed to be here.
00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:41.039
I guess I'm thinking about that experience I had in Salt Lake City where we walked into that room and felt something bad and I said, Don't talk.
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:41.679
You're right.
00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:44.880
There is there is also the idea of not acknowledging something.
00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:47.360
So but I don't know.
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:54.320
Because I don't either because when we when we have done the ghost hunting, we did speak questions out loud and expected answers.
00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:00.239
And I don't think either of us felt uncomfortable about doing that because it was different than a seance or a Ouija board.
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:00.559
Right.
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:02.800
And and we thought we knew who we were talking to.
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:03.280
Potentially.
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:03.760
But we don't.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:04.239
You're right.
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:04.719
We don't.
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:05.119
We don't.
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:06.000
None of these we do.
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:06.239
No.
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:06.639
Okay.
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:06.880
Yeah.
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:07.599
Keep going.
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:07.920
Yeah.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:08.400
Yeah.
00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:19.519
Family friends, Amy and Isaac Post, Quakers involved in abolition and other reform ref yeah, reform movements, became early believers and introduced the girls to their circle.
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:26.079
In November 1849, the Fox Sisters began giving public demonstration in Rochester's largest auditorium.
00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:29.119
Hundreds paid admission to hear the rappings.
00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:32.079
Committees selected from the audience examined the sisters.
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:33.599
Their feet were held.
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:35.199
Their clothing was searched.
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:39.440
At one point, the women were reportedly stripped and examined in private.
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:40.159
Geez.
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:45.599
According to the committee's published conclusions, the raps continued and no mechanism was discovered.
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:57.599
Those examinations would not meet modern experimental standards, but the humiliating scrutiny endured by the sisters was real, and at least in those demonstrations, the investigators said they could not catch them cheating.
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:03.599
There was there was no mechanism these investigators could see that these girls were were faking this.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:06.480
Other investigations reached the opposite conclusion.
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:15.519
In 1851, three physicians in Buffalo argued that sounds resembled resembling the spirit wraps could be produced by joints in the knees, ankles, or toes.
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:20.400
When the sisters' legs were restricted, the doctor said the noises stopped.
00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:27.280
The foxes and their supporters replied that the hostile condition had prevented the spirits from communicating.
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:28.320
Interesting.
00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:31.679
The dispute would repeat itself through our history of spiritualism.
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:33.599
Investigators demanded tighter controls.
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:41.519
Mediums claimed those controls dis disrupted the phenomenon, and both sides left convinced that the other had proven nothing.
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:42.800
And I get that.
00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:46.800
If it truly is a spirit, they can be finicky and they can be like, oh, you don't believe?
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:48.159
Well, fine, I'm not gonna react.
00:57:48.559 --> 00:57:48.960
Exactly.
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:57.760
But also, you you gotta be able to it scientists want it to be proven through the scientific method, and that means repeatable.
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:04.400
And if the conditions are so that in a way where you can fake it, it's not repeatable then.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:07.280
Or it is repeatable, but not in a good way.
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:09.360
They became bigger, they became bigger.
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:10.800
Let me let me get to this part.
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:14.719
But celebrity did not produce happy uh produced particularly happy lives.
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:20.239
Both Maggie and Kate eventually struggled with alcohol, unstable finances, and bitter family conflict.
00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:24.719
Maggie sometimes withdrew from spiritualism only to return when she needed money.
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:25.199
Right.
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:30.480
Kate continued performing for much longer, including highly regarded seances in Britain.
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:39.119
Then in 1888, 40 years after the first Knox, Maggie Fox announced that it had all been a fraud.
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:42.639
She came out, she conclusively said it.
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:45.679
The confession did not happen quietly.
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:52.800
Maggie gave the New York World an exclusive interview for a reported payment of$1,500.
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:59.119
Which that right there is a lot of the things that spiritualists hang their hat upon.
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:03.199
She was given a lot of compensation to confess.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:03.679
Right.
00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:09.360
And Maggie was the one of who who was allegedly not very good emotionally or financially.
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:09.760
Right.
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:15.599
On October 21st, she appeared before approximately two thousand people at New York's Academy of Music.
00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:19.440
She said that the Hydesville disturbances had begun as a childish prank.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:25.199
At first, she claimed the girls had tied an apple to a string and bounced it against the floor.
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:32.719
Later, they discovered they could produce louder raps by manipulating the joints in their feet and toes against a surface that carried the sound.
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:37.440
Maggie removed her shoe, placed her foot on a wooden stool, and demonstrated.
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:40.239
Sharp raps sounded through the theater.
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:45.920
Three doctors reported the examinator foot and agreed that the sound was coming from the joint of her big toe.
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:51.119
Maggie denounced spiritualism as an absolute falsehood from beginning to end.
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:58.000
She blamed Leia for recognizing the commercial possibilities of the prank and turning two frightened children into professional mediums.
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:02.559
Kate attended and demonstrated the demonstration and appeared to support her sister.
01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:07.280
However, it is slightly misleading when modern summaries simply say that the Fox sisters confessed.
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:10.159
Maggie delivered the formal confession and public demonstration.
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:17.519
Kate made statements supporting the exposure, but her position was less consistent, and she later returned to holding seances.
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:19.519
So she never officially confessed.
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:20.000
Right.
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.079
She just was there to support her sister.
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.239
Maggie's demonstration proved something important.
01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:27.039
She could produce remarkably loud, convincing raps from her body.
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:34.239
Combined with the earlier joint crackling investigations, this gives a strong, plausible method for at least some of the Fox phenomena.
01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:37.519
So all these things are going on, but then here's the fun linchpin.
01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:42.000
Approximately one year later, Maggie withdrew her confession.
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:46.800
She said that she had been pressured by enemies of spiritualism and driven by her desperate need for money.
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:53.360
She claimed that her earlier denunciation had been false and that the spirit wrappings were real after all.
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:57.599
That recantation should not be ignored, but it simply can't erase the confession either.
01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:06.079
Maggie had financial and personal incentives to denounce spiritualism in 1888, and she had financial and personal incentives to return in 1889.
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:12.239
Her changing story leaves us with two incompatible versions, both delivered by the same deeply troubled witness.
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.039
And there is one final alleged twist.
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:23.840
In 1904, 11 years after Maggie's death, bones were discovered behind a crumbling wall in the Hydesville cellar.
01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:28.400
Way back when there were bones that were discovered in the cellar.
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:35.360
Spiritualist newspapers announced that the murdered peddler had finally been found and the Fox Sisters had been vindicated.
01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:39.679
But the remains were never connected to an identifiable peddler.
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:46.400
A later examination described an incomplete assortment of bones, including animal and chicken bones.
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:50.480
There were also rumors that they had been planted as a prank.
01:01:50.800 --> 01:02:04.559
The Fox Sisters, I feel like, are a perfect example of the spiritualist movement as a whole, where there's a lot of room and there are a lot of ways that people have proven that people were faking things.
01:02:04.719 --> 01:02:04.960
Right.
01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:06.639
But also that doesn't explain everything.
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:06.960
Right.
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:10.559
And there are still some gray areas, there are still some interesting things.
01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:12.400
Could it all have been a hoax?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:13.199
Possibly.
01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:13.679
Right.
01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:16.000
But there's also the chance it wasn't.
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:23.760
And unfortunately, that the Fox Series, at least, I don't think we'll ever be able to get a full answer on whether or not it was fully a hoax or fully not.
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:26.800
And I think it just depends on what you personally believe.
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:28.159
What you want to believe, yeah.
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:28.719
Exactly.
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:43.440
So you have in the 1850s to the 1860s, Daniel Douglas home becomes the era's most celebrated physical medium, claiming levitations and other spectacular phenomena.
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:51.119
So other people kind of branched off of what the Fox sisters were doing.
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:55.519
But then you have in the United States the American Civil War.
01:02:55.679 --> 01:02:56.000
Yeah.
01:02:56.320 --> 01:03:04.079
And you have mass bereavement enormously increases the emotional appeal of contacting the dead.
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:12.880
So spiritualism now offers grieving families the possibility of direct communication with their deceased loved ones.
01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:13.280
Yes.
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:17.360
Or at the very least, confirmation that they are still there throughout the mediums.
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:22.000
Like photography was still a very relatively new practice at the time.
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:26.719
And that was also spirit photography started to flourish during that time as well.
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:35.199
So there's that famous, and we're not gonna the famous Mary Todd Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln, as a ghost with his hands on her shoulder picture.
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:35.440
Yep.
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:39.920
That, you know, they really haven't been able to misprove.
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:48.079
Everyone, everyone assumes it's a hoax because you know, the the guy who took the picture, that's he he was a spirit photographer.
01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:49.119
That's what he did.
01:03:49.280 --> 01:04:00.159
And so everyone believes that there was a method and there were ways to potentially have done it, but nobody has really been able to actually duplicate what he was able to do.
01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:04.480
And so it can't be verifiably dismissed.
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:08.000
Everyone just says it was a hoax, even though really they can't prove it.
01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:09.920
You can't un they can't prove it.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:23.840
Then we have William Crook, and he is a scientist, and he begins to attempt to measure physical seance phenomena rather than merely witnessing them.
01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:30.719
This is one of the first steps, it's a transition towards experimental psychical research.
01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:37.199
And that is when in 1882 the Society for Psychical Research is founded.
01:04:37.519 --> 01:04:48.079
The Society for Psychical Research did a large-scale attempt to collect and statistically analyze reports of apparitions and related experiences.
01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:54.800
So they were really trying to put a scientific method into getting information about spirits.
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:59.519
So then 1914 to 1918 is World War I.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:06.239
And now it's another catastrophic period of mass bereavement, and that creates renewed interest.
01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:13.760
And then 1918 to 20 is the Spanish flu, influenza pandemic, again, more mass death.
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:25.679
So you've got people, especially in Europe, who are seeking some kind of solace for the the loss of all of these people.
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:31.360
And then in 1918 to 1920, same Spanish flu era, sure.
01:05:31.519 --> 01:05:35.519
Arthur Conan Doyle, the writer of Sherlock Holmes, yeah.
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:41.679
He becomes a major spiritualist advocate because he loses his son.
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:46.559
And he becomes one of the world's most prominent defenders of mediums.
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:47.599
Fascinating.
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:57.599
So then in 1920 ish, Harry Price joins the SPR, the Society for Psychical Research.
01:05:58.239 --> 01:05:59.679
And his background.
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:03.360
So Harry Price was a magician and a conjurer.
01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:04.480
That's where he came.
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:08.079
And then he married his wife Constance, who was wealthy.
01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:10.800
But also Harry Price was a yeah.
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:12.960
So Harry Price was also an engineer.
01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:13.519
Oh.
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:24.800
And so he was able to leave that life and use those skills then to start creating equipment to look into psychical research.
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:26.639
Which is what he did.
01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:32.239
He is actually uh his book is called Harry Price Ghost Hunter.
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:35.039
He is the first ghost hunter.
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:37.679
He investigated William Hope.
01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:45.280
Price's marked photographic plate experiment challenges the famous spirit photographer William Hope.
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:48.159
I don't know if that's the same I do have that story.
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:49.280
Why don't you do that?
01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:50.079
Okay, okay.
01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:56.000
By 1922, William Hope had probably was probably Britain's most famous spirit photographer.
01:06:56.239 --> 01:07:02.559
Hope led a group known as the Crew Circle, named for the English railway town where it originated.
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:05.840
Crew, spelled C-R-E-W-E.
01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:06.480
Okay.
01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:09.039
Sitters visited him to have their portraits taken.
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:15.199
And when the photograp uh photographic plates were developed, another face would sometimes appear beside them.
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.920
These unexpected figures were called spirit extras.
01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:23.360
Hope's supporters believed that they were images of the dead.
01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:34.079
His admirers included prominent spiritualists such as Arthur Quinn and Doyle, okay, and considered Hope's photographs genuine evidence that human personality survived death.
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:37.360
And this was not a harmless curiosity for everyone involved.
01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:45.920
In the years surrounding the First World War, Britain was filled, like you mentioned, with families grieving husbands, sons, and fathers who had died far from home.
01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:51.280
A photograph that appeared to show one of them again could possess enormous emotional power.
01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:55.280
It also created an enormous opportunity for exploitation.
01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:59.199
Harry Price believed he knew how to test hope.
01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:07.199
Price arranged a sitting at the British College of Psychic Science in London for February 24th, 1922.
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:13.360
He brought James Seymour, a photographer and member of the Magic Circle, as his fellow investigator.
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:22.960
But before the sitting, Price had visited the Imperial Dry Plate Company and commissioned six specially prepared photographic plates.
01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:29.840
Using an X-ray machine, the company had placed its emblem, a lion, onto each plate.
01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:35.199
The mark was invisible to the naked eye, but it would appear when the plates were developed.
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:40.159
If a spirit appeared on one of those plates, so would the lion.
01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:46.880
If the spirit appeared without the lion, Price would know that they had appeared on a different plate.
01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:48.800
So essentially he was watermarking.
01:08:49.039 --> 01:08:49.119
Right.
01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:51.359
He gave him watermarked marked plates.
01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:51.760
Yeah.
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:57.039
The package was sealed and placed in the custody of the So Society for Psychical Research.
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:01.039
On the morning of the test, its research officer, Eric Dingwall.
01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:02.880
What an unfortunate last name.
01:09:07.119 --> 01:09:09.600
The two investigators then carried it to the British College.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:11.119
Hope and his assistant, Mrs.
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:14.000
Buxton, examined the package and agreed to use the plates.
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:15.920
Hope produced the dark side.
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:21.119
Sorry, the dark slide, the removable holder that carried the photographic plates inside the camera.
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:30.239
While appearing merely to examine it, Price secretly placed tiny prick marks upon its frame using a concealed device attached to his thumb.
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:32.239
Now he had two traps.
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:35.520
The invisible line would reveal whether the plates had been exchanged.
01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:40.640
The prick marks would would reveal whether Hope had substituted the entire holder.
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:45.119
Inside the dark room, Price personally loaded two of the marked plates onto Hope's dark slide.
01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:54.640
But while Price repacked the four remaining plates in the dim light, he said Hope turned away, moved the dark slide toward his coat, and then placed it again.
01:09:54.960 --> 01:10:01.359
Price suspected that Hope had exchanged it for an identical holder concealed on his body.
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:04.319
There was an immediate problem with that observation.
01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:07.760
Seymour was not inside the darkroom.
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:13.119
At the most important moment of the investigation, Price had no independent witness.
01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:20.800
Before leaving the darkroom, Hope actually asked whether Price wanted to mark the plates or write his initials upon them, but Price declined.
01:10:21.039 --> 01:10:23.920
He could hardly reveal that they had were already marked.
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:24.960
Exactly, already marked.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:27.199
Yeah, I already did it, yeah.
01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:32.640
But as he carried the dark slate toward the camera, Price quietly looked for the punctures he had placed upon it.
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:35.359
According to his report, they were gone.
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:40.800
Hope took the two portraits of Price using unusually long exposures.
01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:44.479
Price and Seymour were then allowed to watch as the plates were developed.
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:46.880
The first produced an ordinary photograph.
01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:50.239
On the second, an additional figure appeared.
01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:51.920
Hope had apparently succeeded.
01:10:52.079 --> 01:11:00.479
The camera had photographed something that had not been visibly present in the room, but under the red light of the dark room, Price was looking for something else.
01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:02.159
The lion was missing.
01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:10.000
The photograph contained an extra spirit, but it did not contain the manufacturer's mark that should have existed on the plate itself.
01:11:10.319 --> 01:11:11.520
Price persuaded Mrs.
01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:12.479
Bucks uh Mrs.
01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:16.640
Buxton to let him keep the ordinary plate, claiming that he liked his portrait.
01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:21.920
When he later made another print format from it, the lion was absent there as well.
01:11:22.079 --> 01:11:26.800
The spirit photograph arrived by mail later, and it also lacked the mark.
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:30.960
Price concluded that neither photograph had been taken on the plates he supplied.
01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:38.239
Hope had apparently substituted ordinary plates, at least one of which had already been prepared with the ghostly image.
01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:48.399
But Hope's defenders did not simply surrender.
01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:54.399
James Hewitt Mackenzie, president of the British College, argued that the investigation had been designed as an ambush.
01:11:54.640 --> 01:12:07.199
Price had concealed his intentions, the alleged exchange occurred without Seymour present, and there was no impartial witness who could guarantee that the marked plates had remained inside their packaging before the sitting.
01:12:07.520 --> 01:12:15.680
When the surviving wrappers were finally examined months later, some of the seals were broken and the label in the plate box appeared to have been lifted and refolded.
01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:19.439
The Imperial Company agreed that the packaging showed signs of disturbance.
01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:25.119
That raised the possibility that someone could have removed the marked plates before Hope ever received them.
01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:28.720
It did not prove that frame that price had framed Hope.
01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:39.039
Months had passed and the packaging could have been damaged after the sitting, but it prevented Price's investigation from being quite as airtight as later retellings sometimes suggest.
01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:42.800
The most reasonable conclusion remains that Hope probably substituted the plates.
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:51.199
Price reported seeing an opportunity for the exchange, his secret marks disappeared, and the developed photographs lacked the invisible emblem they should have contained.
01:12:51.359 --> 01:13:00.880
But the case also demonstrates why investigators must also be investigated too, as well as having a secondary witness there to be able to back up the investigation.
01:13:01.199 --> 01:13:02.640
Price wanted to catch Hope.
01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:04.319
Hope supporters wanted to protect him.
01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:12.239
Both sides have reputations and institutions at stake, and the disputed evidence passed through the hands of people committed to opposing conclusions.
01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:17.279
The photograph still survives, still there, shows Harry Price accompanied by something that looks like a spirit.
01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:23.279
But the most important thing in that photograph is not the extra face that appeared, but it's the lion that didn't.
01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:25.279
Very nice.
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:25.840
Okay.
01:13:26.239 --> 01:13:32.079
So after he investigated Hope, he investigated somebody named Stella Cranshod.
01:13:32.399 --> 01:13:41.760
Controlled seances involved alleged table movement, temperature changes, and other physical phenomena bring price considerable attention.
01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:46.239
So basically, she was manipulating this the seance.
01:13:46.479 --> 01:13:46.640
Right.
01:13:47.680 --> 01:13:48.239
Par the tricks.
01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:57.119
Um so then in 1925, Harry Price created the National Laboratory of Psychical Research.
01:13:57.359 --> 01:13:59.359
And he becomes the honorary director.
01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:06.319
Its purpose is controlled investigation of mediums and alleged psychic phenomena.
01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:22.159
And then Price's laboratory, he basically at Queensbury Place puts in a sands room, a laboratory, a workshop, a dark room, instruments, and the baffle chain chamber to prevent stray light and sound.
01:14:22.399 --> 01:14:22.720
Wow.
01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:26.000
So this is the first time anybody has done this.
01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:32.079
He takes his investigation approach into an allegedly haunted location.
01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:33.039
Interesting.
01:14:33.279 --> 01:14:39.199
This is one of the most important steps towards what we recognize today as ghost hunting.
01:14:39.439 --> 01:14:43.279
And he now is calling himself a ghost hunter.
01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:48.560
So Borley Rectory, there's there's three movies out there, all really terrible.
01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:50.960
You're welcome.
01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:51.920
I watched those for you.
01:14:52.159 --> 01:14:52.319
Thank you.
01:14:52.640 --> 01:15:00.399
Um Borley Rectory is actually a rectory in England, and it is haunted.
01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:06.880
One of the reverends there actually wrote a book about the hauntings of Borley Rectory.
01:15:07.039 --> 01:15:22.960
So the idea was that there's a nun, a ghost of a nun, and she was supposedly she and a caretaker fell in love and they were gonna run away and they got caught, and she gets walled up into the the alive, walled up into it, and he gets like hung.
01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:27.600
And then they they just geez, what a what a uh difference.
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:29.760
It's a hallmark romance.
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.399
I just I I love just the the stark difference between oh, this dude, he'll get he'll get killed quick.
01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:42.960
Yeah, she will have existential dread as she starves and and runs out of oxygen as she dies.
01:15:43.199 --> 01:15:45.760
And so they they look back and there's no record of that.
01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:49.359
Of course not, but there is a record of a nun potentially dying.
01:15:49.520 --> 01:16:01.680
And the rectory and so the and there's lots of evidence of a lot of firsthand experiences of people seeing the the nun on the grounds and stuff.
01:16:01.840 --> 01:16:10.640
And one of the, I think it was uh Reverend Ball actually builds an octagonal sunroom gazebo kind of place.
01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:13.199
Is this is this where octagons come into play?
01:16:13.439 --> 01:16:16.399
Yes, yes, is this why octagons are the spookiest shape?
01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:16.960
That's right.
01:16:17.199 --> 01:16:19.279
Uh the second spookiest triangles are obviously.
01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:27.199
He creates this so he can sit out there and watch for her her ghost.
01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:36.960
There's rumor he for some reason, one of the rooms in the in the dining room, one of the windows in the dining room is is bricked up.
01:16:37.520 --> 01:16:44.319
One of the rumors is that he got tired of looking out the window and having the nun looking in back in at them when they were eating dinner.
01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:46.079
So they kept that room.
01:16:46.159 --> 01:16:46.239
Yeah.
01:16:46.479 --> 01:16:47.119
I like that rumor.
01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:52.239
That's I don't I'm curious to see if there's any evidence that supports that, but I do I like that though.
01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:53.279
There really isn't.
01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:55.760
There isn't, but but it's like, why would he do that?
01:16:55.840 --> 01:16:57.760
You know, and why would he do it all the way to the top?
01:16:57.840 --> 01:16:59.920
Because, you know, he could have done it halfway.
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:04.159
He dies, his Harry Price that we're ball.
01:17:04.479 --> 01:17:05.760
Reverend Ball, Reverend Ball.
01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:08.000
His son takes over for him.
01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:11.359
And his son and his daughters, they had a big a big family.
01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:16.000
The son, his son and the son's sisters are all in there with the mom.
01:17:16.159 --> 01:17:16.399
Sure.
01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.600
And then, like so many years later, he marries.
01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:23.680
Eventually, he wants the house to himself and his wife.
01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:26.720
So he asks the sisters and mother to leave.
01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:27.039
Yeah.
01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:31.920
And several years later, he dies, and he says he's murdered.
01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:43.680
Uh, well, they believe uh the I was gonna say who he says, he says, Wait, there is a seance later on, but but the sisters immediately say Ivy, the wife, murdered the second reverend, Bob.
01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:49.199
They're very upset about it, says that they were having money problems, and she murdered him.
01:17:49.279 --> 01:17:59.119
And, you know, so anyway, the house sits, another group comes in and they're getting all kinds of paranormal doors closing, walking, you know, all kinds of stuff.
01:17:59.279 --> 01:18:02.159
Then finally, this reverend and his wife come in.
01:18:02.399 --> 01:18:12.239
She's going through stuff in in the library, and she goes into this cabinet on the bottom, and there's this something wrapped in brown paper and twine.
01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:14.479
She opens it up and it's a skull.
01:18:14.720 --> 01:18:15.039
Oh.
01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:23.680
Her husband calls a friend at the newspaper and says he wants him to get him in touch with Harry Price.
01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:29.439
Because at this point, Harry Price has got this reputation of being able to check these paranormal things out.
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:30.800
He's a ghost hunter.
01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:31.920
He's a ghost hunter.
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:35.439
But instead, the newspaper sends a reporter out.
01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:36.000
Ah.
01:18:36.319 --> 01:18:46.000
That's very similar to the reporter in uh Williams, the Williams family reporter, that kind of kind of that yellow journalism.
01:18:46.399 --> 01:18:48.079
That very sensationalist, you know.
01:18:48.479 --> 01:18:51.119
And so he's out there with the photographer.
01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:52.319
Let's make some money from this.
01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:54.560
Yes, and stuff is happening.
01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:59.600
They're watching, they're sitting in a room, and a key comes out of the door and falls on the thing.
01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:01.840
Doors upstairs are opening and closing.
01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:04.880
Um, he's in a room with the photographer.
01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:09.039
He's outside, and on the second floor, there's a light coming through.
01:19:09.279 --> 01:19:12.399
So he sends a photographer out to the second floor, which is smart.
01:19:12.479 --> 01:19:13.600
I wouldn't have gone either.
01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:15.520
You go up there into the haunted record.
01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:16.319
Can you look at that?
01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:17.359
Can you look at that for me?
01:19:17.439 --> 01:19:18.560
I uh would rather not myself.
01:19:18.800 --> 01:19:19.920
There's there's no light up there.
01:19:20.079 --> 01:19:23.119
And the photographer comes to the window and he's waving at it.
01:19:23.279 --> 01:19:28.319
There's no wind, uh there's no light, there's no source for the light that's there.
01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:29.199
Interesting.
01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:36.560
And the photographer also hears like a horse-drawn carriage going in front, and he looks out and there's nobody there.
01:19:36.720 --> 01:19:38.560
So he's getting a lot of paranormal.
01:19:38.640 --> 01:19:42.399
So Harry Price comes in and they have a stance.
01:19:42.560 --> 01:19:44.560
The bull sisters show up.
01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:50.000
They want to be part of it too, because they want to ask their brother shows up, they want to ask him some questions.
01:19:50.239 --> 01:19:50.880
Yeah.
01:19:51.600 --> 01:19:53.199
We got some questions for you.
01:19:53.760 --> 01:20:06.000
So Harry Price does the stance there, and with the new reverend and his wife, the one that found the skull, you know, there's uh knock one for yes and knock two, and this thing's responding and knocking.
01:20:06.399 --> 01:20:18.239
Then the sisters start asking a qu private questions, and it's about the money and the and then the thing gets very upset, and things start flying around the room, and they shut down the seance.
01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:19.840
Other things happen.
01:20:20.399 --> 01:20:26.239
And this is all this all recorded, this all really happened because it sounds, I mean, it sounds like a movie.
01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:26.960
Right, it does.
01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:36.720
Well, and you know it's interesting because the reverend's wife said, you know, that they had had stuff fall and heard footsteps and doors open and closed.
01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:41.119
But she said once Harry Price came, it seemed magnified.
01:20:41.359 --> 01:20:42.319
It it ramped up.
01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:50.960
And so she didn't know if he was magnifying it or were they reacting to who he was and magnifying it.
01:20:51.279 --> 01:20:57.199
The reverend that was there earlier who wrote the book, his book is it's it's not very long.
01:20:57.279 --> 01:20:58.800
You can actually download it.
01:20:58.880 --> 01:21:00.720
It's it's an archival book in England.
01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:02.079
And I did three, okay.
01:21:02.239 --> 01:21:04.399
And I can give you that link so we can put it there.
01:21:04.560 --> 01:21:17.920
But he talks about his experiences, you know, about you know, being in one room and hearing voices and going in there and there's nobody there, or having a door open and close, or or seeing somebody walk when nobody would be there.
01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:21.920
So did he hear any voices from the attic?
01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:25.600
Oh, he should Ash is shaking his head.
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:26.800
No, he's disappointed in me.
01:21:26.880 --> 01:21:27.520
And you know what?
01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:28.800
I don't blame him.
01:21:29.840 --> 01:21:37.600
He wrote this whole book and and he said, you know, Harry Price was gonna write, nobody wanted to live in the rectory after all of these things had happened.
01:21:37.680 --> 01:21:39.760
So they actually built another rectory.
01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:47.520
And so he was living in this other rectory, but he would see lights, he would see figures, he would see and so he wrote that.
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:51.520
But Harry Price then rented the rectory for six months.
01:21:51.680 --> 01:21:52.079
Oh, wow.
01:21:52.239 --> 01:22:00.560
And he went in there and he he did all of these experiments and caught things on camera, and he wrote a book about what happened.
01:22:00.800 --> 01:22:03.119
I mean, that also sounds like something I would want to I know.
01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:05.359
It's it was somebody needs to make a movie about that.
01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:07.039
They did, it wasn't very good.
01:22:07.520 --> 01:22:08.960
Someone needs to make a good movie about that.
01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:11.680
And they they do, they they do so so.
01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:25.920
Then after Harry Price, um, because he was the first one that then took the investigation to the haunted house, and he interviewed people, you know, and then he tried to use he used photography a lot, a lot of the new technology of the time.
01:22:26.159 --> 01:22:27.439
Exactly, exactly.
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:30.640
So then Harry Price died in the 40s.
01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:31.119
Okay.
01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:36.399
Then you have Hans Holzer, and he's kind of the next step, and he's from the United States.
01:22:36.560 --> 01:22:42.960
And Hans Holzer was very interesting because he went to the haunted location like Harry Price.
01:22:43.199 --> 01:22:51.279
He interviewed witnesses, and then he brought a medium, but he never told the medium what what happened in the house.
01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:51.760
Smart.
01:22:52.159 --> 01:22:57.760
Then afterwards, he would do research on the to prove what the medium had said.
01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:06.800
And it's interesting because uh I think Discovery Channel has cut the holzer files where people have taken his old files.
01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:07.680
That one too.
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:10.159
If there's another, there's another reality show as well.
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:13.359
I forget the name of the reality show, but it's essentially that same exact setup.
01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:18.960
It's very interesting because he there's film of Hans Holzer and his medium.
01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:23.119
The medium is like this um the same medium every time.
01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:23.600
Yes.
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:24.079
Okay.
01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:27.920
This 40 to 50 year old woman, she looks like a farm woman.
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:37.199
I mean, she's kind of a heavy set woman, and she sits down and she says, you know, things like, I see a child.
01:23:37.359 --> 01:23:40.399
And she has kind of a high-pitched, wriggly voice.
01:23:40.640 --> 01:23:43.600
Do you remember all the Groucho Marks or the Marx Brothers movies?
01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:44.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:46.159
And there was always the wealthy woman.
01:23:46.399 --> 01:23:47.359
Oh, she's not.
01:23:47.520 --> 01:23:50.319
No, she was just she was a larger woman.
01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:50.880
Yeah.
01:23:51.119 --> 01:23:54.239
She's I would consider that curvy, not not heavy.
01:23:54.560 --> 01:23:54.720
Okay.
01:23:55.039 --> 01:23:56.720
It was always the Okay, I see.
01:23:56.800 --> 01:23:57.439
I see what you're saying.
01:23:57.520 --> 01:23:58.000
I see what you're saying.
01:23:58.239 --> 01:24:04.239
The socialite woman who, and she was very proper, and she would tell the story.
01:24:04.399 --> 01:24:15.199
And then Hans Holzer would use other investigative ways to prove or disprove to find out what was causing the issue.
01:24:15.520 --> 01:24:15.920
Interesting.
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:20.640
And basically, Hans Holzer then opened up the school ghost hunting.
01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:21.439
Ghost hunting.
01:24:21.520 --> 01:24:23.119
And he called himself a ghost hunter too.
01:24:23.279 --> 01:24:24.880
I actually don't know if I'd want to be a ghost hunter.
01:24:25.039 --> 01:24:31.520
I I I would I could see myself enjoying it, but I definitely enjoyed the the research side of it more than the actually going and getting scared.
01:24:31.760 --> 01:24:36.640
One of the things, and we've talked about this before, is you know, Hans Holzer and Harry Price.
01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:40.319
I mean, Harry Price spent six months in this rectory.
01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:44.079
Hans Holzer would go back to these places, he'd use a medium.
01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:44.560
Yes.
01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:46.319
And can't just be one night.
01:24:46.479 --> 01:24:46.720
Right.
01:24:46.880 --> 01:24:51.760
And but but what he would do is after the medium gave him information, he would investigate it.
01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:57.680
He was not looking for a paranormal well, obviously a medium saying, Oh, I'm I'm hearing this or something.
01:24:57.920 --> 01:25:03.520
This is a paranormal thing, but he's not looking for interaction with a paranormal entity.
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:07.199
He's he's uh he's looking for observations, he's he's observing what's gonna happen.
01:25:07.439 --> 01:25:08.399
And and you know what?
01:25:08.560 --> 01:25:20.720
A lot of of the paranormal investigative groups that are all over the country, they go into places for like a long weekend or they do a lot of research and stuff.
01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:32.159
We get a skewed view of this because we're looking at people who are trying to sell their story to a discovery channel or a history channel.
01:25:32.319 --> 01:25:38.640
And so what they have to do is produce something that makes the audience come back a week later.
01:25:38.880 --> 01:25:40.800
I will say um Jason Haas.
01:25:41.039 --> 01:25:41.760
Jason Haas.
01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:50.079
So he talked about if you notice in the earlier seasons, not every single place that they go to, they don't always conclude that something's haunted.
01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:58.479
They don't always and and people assumed that they would only go to the places that were definitely haunted or they would only record the places that were definitely haunted.
01:25:58.640 --> 01:26:08.640
But Jason was like, we gave them 20 to 30 episodes, uh, and then the network ultimately at the end of the day, they chose what aired.
01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:13.680
So if you go to a place and is not haunted, the of course the network isn't gonna show that.
01:26:13.920 --> 01:26:30.239
And it and if you look at what the network has now, yeah, what the networks have decided is the seller because ghost hunters are are no longer on, uh, kindred spirits are no longer on, dead files are no longer on.
01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:41.199
But if you look at the ones that really tried to do good investigation and just get EVPs and just get those are gone.
01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:49.199
It's the sensationalism ones, which we won't name, which we won't name because you know we don't want to ruffle any feathers uh with anyone, but you're you're right.
01:26:49.359 --> 01:26:56.239
Or or it's programs that have found another angle, like Avenue Tradition X.
01:26:56.479 --> 01:27:06.560
Exactly, you know, and they tend to be more, I mean I would say that sometimes they're a little bit sensational, or or they were afraid they weren't gonna have enough stuff in this episode.
01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:14.720
So that this is this right here, this problem, this issue that they have is fluff and it's 100% fluff because it has nothing to do with the investigation, right?
01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:16.560
It's just a quick little thing they can overcome.
01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:18.560
But they get to go to cool places.
01:27:18.800 --> 01:27:19.119
You're right.
01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:23.279
I mean, they're not going to Poughkeepsie to somebody's broken house.
01:27:23.439 --> 01:27:23.600
Right.
01:27:23.840 --> 01:27:27.199
They're going to But they're also exploring more than just ghosts.
01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:27.600
They're exploring.
01:27:28.560 --> 01:27:30.319
They were in Sherwood Forest last week.
01:27:30.640 --> 01:27:55.840
If you're trying to do this for a living, you know, and televise it, unfortunately, you know, in the day Price and all of these guys who were trying to and Hans Holzer, who were looking at this with serious scientific intent, would probably be rolling in their graves if it it's just turned into people and hablam.
01:27:56.399 --> 01:27:59.760
I don't fully dismiss all the evidence that they bring up.
01:28:00.239 --> 01:28:00.560
Right.
01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:05.760
But that doesn't mean that the places that they go to are actually inhibited or haunted.
01:28:05.840 --> 01:28:12.239
If you believe in the idea that sometimes an object is haunted, sometimes a location is haunted, sometimes a person is haunted.
01:28:12.319 --> 01:28:21.279
And if you open up yourself to things enough times, you will get evidence all the time, anywhere you go, but that's not because the evidence was there.
01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:23.359
It's because you brought it there accidentally.
01:28:23.680 --> 01:28:24.159
Interesting.
01:28:24.319 --> 01:28:27.600
Oh, why don't you finish this stuff with patience worth because you're leaving us hanging?
01:28:27.680 --> 01:28:28.880
Okay, please go right ahead.
01:28:29.039 --> 01:28:29.199
Okay.
01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:33.279
For those of us who have listened to this entire thing and thinking, what the heck was that?
01:28:33.439 --> 01:28:34.479
That was the cold open.
01:28:34.640 --> 01:28:35.279
The cold open.
01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:37.840
Where yeah, she wrote a whole bunch of stuff.
01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:41.840
So first, before that, I'm going to quickly do the evolution of the Ouija board.
01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:51.840
So essentially the Ouija board kind of came because the dead, when it comes to like the taps and everything that the Fox sisters introduced, people realized that the dead were painfully slow typists.
01:28:52.800 --> 01:28:54.800
That it was kind of like me.
01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:57.600
The Christopher Columbus method.
01:28:58.000 --> 01:28:58.239
Exactly.
01:28:58.560 --> 01:29:02.000
You hit a key and you got a search where you landed.
01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:02.800
Exactly.
01:29:03.039 --> 01:29:08.399
And so as spiritualism spread, practitioners began experimenting with faster methods.
01:29:08.479 --> 01:29:14.399
Uh there were turning table seances where people will place their hands on a table, interpret it, its movements as answers.
01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:16.960
A tilt might mean a yes, another movement might mean a no.
01:29:17.119 --> 01:29:22.800
During the 1850s and 60s, there was a uh the device called a planchette became popular.
01:29:22.960 --> 01:29:25.279
Uh the word is French for little plank.
01:29:25.359 --> 01:29:32.960
These early planchettes were usually little small pieces of wood resting on wheels or casters with a pencil fitted through one end.
01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:40.239
One or more people placed their fingers lightly upon the wood, asked a question, and allowed the device to move across a sheet of paper.
01:29:40.479 --> 01:29:43.520
Believers said that a spirit was guiding the hands of the living.
01:29:43.680 --> 01:29:46.319
Other people suspected that the sitters were moving it unconsciously.
01:29:46.479 --> 01:29:50.239
Either way, the result was supposed to be automatic writing.
01:29:50.319 --> 01:29:52.319
So this was this was the original automatic writing.
01:29:52.399 --> 01:29:55.520
You put a pencil in this planchette and then you're moving around.
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:56.800
And you know, whatever looked.
01:29:57.119 --> 01:29:58.399
That would be so hard to write.
01:29:58.640 --> 01:29:59.439
I I agree.
01:29:59.760 --> 01:30:01.039
That would be absolutely.
01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:03.600
And that's exactly what you're what you mentioned.
01:30:03.680 --> 01:30:05.520
The automatic writing introduced another problem.
01:30:05.680 --> 01:30:08.800
Whatever was moving the pencil did not necessarily have good handwriting.
01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:12.079
It's a doctor, I can tell.
01:30:13.439 --> 01:30:16.479
Eventually, someone turned the entire system inside out.
01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:23.359
Rather than asking the planchette to write the letters, why not place the letters on a board and allow the planchette to point toward them?
01:30:23.520 --> 01:30:28.479
Uh in 1886, American newspapers were reporting that devices called talking boards.
01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:29.279
Wow.
01:30:30.319 --> 01:30:31.439
I knew something.
01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:34.319
You won't believe, you won't believe where this is going.
01:30:34.560 --> 01:30:38.159
We're appearing in spiritualist camps in can you name?
01:30:38.239 --> 01:30:38.720
Can you guess?
01:30:38.880 --> 01:30:39.520
New York.
01:30:39.760 --> 01:30:40.399
Ohio.
01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:44.800
It's always Ohio, guys.
01:30:45.119 --> 01:30:46.079
Always Ohio.
01:30:46.239 --> 01:30:51.760
They contain letters, numbers, and a movable pointer recognizable as an early version of the board we know today.
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:55.760
That means the Ouija board was probably not the invention of one inspired individual.
01:30:55.920 --> 01:31:04.880
The basic idea was already circulating amongst spiritualists before a group of Baltimore businessmen recognized that it could also be a profitable product.
01:31:05.039 --> 01:31:06.399
They said, Look at that.
01:31:06.640 --> 01:31:07.680
That can make me money.
01:31:07.920 --> 01:31:08.399
That's right.
01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:10.880
Was his name, that Chicago guy's name again?
01:31:11.119 --> 01:31:11.600
Uh no.
01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:20.640
This one, 1890, Charles Kennard organized the Kennard Novelty Company with several investors, including an attorney named Elijah Bond.
01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:29.600
Bond applied for a patent, a patent, and on February 10th, 1891, the United States Patent Office approved his new toy or game.
01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:37.600
The patent described a board containing the alphabet, numbers, the words yes and no, and a small movable table that would point toward the answers.
01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:40.000
It explained how to use the device.
01:31:40.159 --> 01:31:43.119
It carefully avoided explaining what made a move.
01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:47.279
Even the origin of its name remains appropriately strange.
01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:58.960
According to the story preserved by the founders' families, Bond's sister-in-law, Helen Peters, a woman he described as a strong medium, asked the board what it wanted to be called.
01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:05.279
The pointer spelled O U I J A.
01:32:06.000 --> 01:32:10.000
When they asked what the word meant, it reportedly answered, Good luck.
01:32:10.319 --> 01:32:12.640
The story may be true, but there's an additional complication.
01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:18.800
Peters was apparently wearing a locket containing the name or image of the novelist Oida.
01:32:19.439 --> 01:32:23.279
I don't know how to pronounce that, but it's spelled O-U-I-D-A.
01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:26.479
And the inscription may have been misread.
01:32:26.720 --> 01:32:34.880
The familiar explanation that Ouija combines the French Oi and the German ya, two words meaning yes, appears to have come later.
01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:37.680
So some people were like, oh, Ouija is just both two yeses.
01:32:37.920 --> 01:32:38.399
Yes, yes.
01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:38.960
Ouija.
01:32:39.600 --> 01:32:39.840
Yeah.
01:32:40.079 --> 01:32:46.000
However, it received its name, the Ouija board accompanied a remarkably convenient position between religion, entertainment, and commerce.
01:32:46.319 --> 01:32:51.439
Advertisements presented it as both a mysterious, mysterious oracle and an amusing parlor game.
01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:52.880
That brings us to St.
01:32:53.039 --> 01:33:07.760
Louis in 1913, where Pearl Curran and her family friend Grant Emily Grant Hutchinson, uh Hunt Hutchings, placed their hands upon the pointer of one of these commercially manufactured boards, giving us patients worth is my name.
01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:14.560
So at first, patients still had to speak one letter at a time, like the board was designed to do.
01:33:14.960 --> 01:33:22.800
But she did not behave like the alleged spirit in Hydesville, whose identity had been slowly assembled through questions asked by the people in the room.
01:33:23.199 --> 01:33:25.279
Back talking about the five sisters.
01:33:25.600 --> 01:33:26.479
It was not like that.
01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:29.920
Patience arrived with a voice of her own.
01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:32.960
That's what makes Patience Worth very unique.
01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:37.439
Because she had a voice and it was distinct from Pearl.
01:33:37.760 --> 01:33:41.279
She spoke in an unusual, supposedly archaic dialect.
01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:44.079
She offered poems, parables, and opinions.
01:33:44.319 --> 01:33:48.159
She joked with visitors and occasionally insulted them.
01:33:48.479 --> 01:33:50.399
I kind of love Patience Worth already.
01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:51.199
Not gonna lie.
01:33:51.840 --> 01:34:00.880
When one skeptical physician announced that she wanted to discover what Patience's game was, she immediately replied, Dust then desire the plucking of another goose.
01:34:01.199 --> 01:34:04.399
The personality was sharp, playful, and remarkably consistent.
01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:13.359
Patience could answer a visitor, return to a poem, and then continue a story from the point that she had left it during an earlier sitting.
01:34:13.600 --> 01:34:13.840
Okay.
01:34:14.319 --> 01:34:17.520
So Patience had a remarkably good memory as well.
01:34:17.920 --> 01:34:21.119
Most importantly, the communications appeared whenever Pearl was at the board.
01:34:21.279 --> 01:34:26.800
Emily Hutchings could be replaced by Pearl's husband, her mother, or another visitor without stopping them.
01:34:26.960 --> 01:34:28.640
But Pearl had to be there.
01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:29.199
Okay.
01:34:29.439 --> 01:34:31.279
Nobody else could be switched out.
01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:32.399
Well, sorry.
01:34:32.560 --> 01:34:35.199
Others could be switched out, but Pearl had to remain consistent.
01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:39.520
As the sessions continued, the Curins began keeping records.
01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:42.319
There's an important complication in the earliest material.
01:34:42.479 --> 01:34:49.760
Pearl's husband, John, later wrote that Emily Hutchings had initially rewritten, punctuated, and sometimes altered portions of the notes.
01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:57.119
When John compiled the first volume, he said he attempted to remove those editions and preserve only what they believed had come from patients.
01:34:57.359 --> 01:35:02.560
That means the earliest transcript is not a perfect, untouched record of every movement across the board.
01:35:02.720 --> 01:35:02.880
Okay.
01:35:03.119 --> 01:35:08.960
There's some editing that that Emily felt like had to had to be given.
01:35:09.359 --> 01:35:12.960
But the documentation quickly became much more extensive.
01:35:13.119 --> 01:35:19.359
Visitors attended the sessions, Pearl's words were recorded, and the papers accumulated until they filled dozens of volumes.
01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:21.439
And patience became faster.
01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:23.279
She had run out of patience.
01:35:24.399 --> 01:35:28.720
Pearl began recognizing words before the planchette finished spelling them.
01:35:28.960 --> 01:35:31.439
Eventually she no longer needed to wait for it all.
01:35:31.600 --> 01:35:37.119
She would place her fingers on the board, announce the approaching words aloud, and allow a secretary to record them.
01:35:37.520 --> 01:35:40.800
In time, even the physical contact became unnecessary.
01:35:41.359 --> 01:35:45.760
Pearl described experiencing something like a moving picture inside her mind.
01:35:46.000 --> 01:35:50.800
When patients produced a story, Pearl said that she could see its characters, clothing, and surroundings.
01:35:51.279 --> 01:35:56.640
She watched them move and heard them speak while patients applied the language she was expected to dictate.
01:35:57.119 --> 01:36:06.880
Sometimes patients reported they worked on several pieces during the same sitting, moving from a poem to a novel to a play, and then returning to each without appearing to lose her place.
01:36:07.520 --> 01:36:15.760
Between 1913 and Pearl's death in 1937, the voice attributed to patients' worth produced nearly four million words.
01:36:16.399 --> 01:36:16.720
Wow.
01:36:17.119 --> 01:36:22.159
The surviving work includes poems, short stories, plays, religious reflections, and several novels.
01:36:22.319 --> 01:36:30.079
One of them, The Sorry Tale, was a biblical epic of more than 600 pages set during the lifetime of Jesus.
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:37.840
Another, Hope Trueblood, was set in Victorian England, a period that Patience herself supposedly had not lived to see.
01:36:38.079 --> 01:36:41.199
The books not remain confined to spiritualist circles.
01:36:41.359 --> 01:36:43.600
Some received serious literary attention.
01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:47.279
Patience's poems appeared in respected anthologies.
01:36:47.359 --> 01:36:52.159
The New York Times called the Sorry Tale a feat of literary composition.
01:36:52.399 --> 01:37:00.399
Edgar Lee Masters, the author of Spoon River Anthology, said the literature was remarkable, although he could not explain how Pearl produced it.
01:37:00.720 --> 01:37:10.399
That does not mean every critic considered the work a masterpiece, but some found the language artificial, extensively sentimental, or only superficially archaic.
01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:15.439
But even critics who rejected the supernatural explanation faced an unusual fact.
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:16.880
The work existed.
01:37:17.039 --> 01:37:20.560
The alleged author was far more difficult to establish.
01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:28.560
Over time, patience became associated with the story of a 17th-century English woman who crossed the Atlantic and died in colonial America.
01:37:28.880 --> 01:37:33.600
But no historical woman matching her story has ever been identified.
01:37:33.920 --> 01:37:34.479
Interesting.
01:37:34.720 --> 01:37:36.239
Patience herself was very helpful.
01:37:36.319 --> 01:37:42.399
When people pressed her for names, locations, or details that could confirm her identity, she frequently avoided the question.
01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:48.079
Her most memorable response was essentially that yesterday was dead and they should allow it to remain that way.
01:37:48.399 --> 01:37:48.800
Jeez.
01:37:49.359 --> 01:37:49.840
Wow.
01:37:50.079 --> 01:37:52.640
What a to me, that's a red flag right there.
01:37:53.119 --> 01:37:54.720
Don't ask me about my past.
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:56.079
Yesterday's dead.
01:37:56.319 --> 01:37:59.119
Yeah, don't ask me to confirm who I say I am.
01:37:59.359 --> 01:37:59.760
Exactly.
01:38:00.000 --> 01:38:05.680
Pearl is also not quite the impossibly uneducated woman people describe in some later retellings.
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:16.159
Her formal education ended around the ninth grade, but she had musical training and had been read to as a child and moved with an intellectually active circle in St.
01:38:16.319 --> 01:38:16.800
Louis.
01:38:16.960 --> 01:38:25.279
Modern literary scholarship has found possible influences from Dickens, popular historical writing, and women's authors within Pearl's own social world.
01:38:25.439 --> 01:38:31.279
So she was around social, right, intelligent individuals in the social society.
01:38:31.439 --> 01:38:36.159
Her language was not flawless 17th century English either.
01:38:36.319 --> 01:38:43.119
It blended genuine old words, invented constructions, and speech resembling Pearl's own time and region.
01:38:43.520 --> 01:38:45.199
That creates several possibilities.
01:38:45.439 --> 01:38:53.199
Patience could have been a deliberate literary performance, although maintaining the character and producing that volume of material would have required tremendous ability.
01:38:53.359 --> 01:38:55.439
It's possible, very unlikely.
01:38:55.680 --> 01:38:56.000
Okay.
01:38:56.560 --> 01:39:04.640
She could have emerged through implicit memory, forgotten language, stories, and rhythms returning in combinations that Pearl could not consciously recognize.
01:39:04.720 --> 01:39:08.560
If you believe in the idea that reincarnation and that exactly.
01:39:18.239 --> 01:39:18.479
Okay.
01:39:18.800 --> 01:39:25.920
Part of Pearl's own mind that felt so independent that Pearl sincerely experienced its words as belonging to someone else.
01:39:26.239 --> 01:39:27.760
Disassociative identity disorder.
01:39:27.840 --> 01:39:28.000
Right.
01:39:28.800 --> 01:39:29.119
Right.
01:39:29.279 --> 01:39:35.760
Or, as Pearl believed, patients could have been an intelligence outside herself using her mind as an instrument.
01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:38.399
And the archive cannot settle the question.
01:39:38.640 --> 01:39:48.239
What it can establish is that Pearl Curran produced an enormous body of writing while experiencing its authorship as someone or something other than herself.
01:39:48.479 --> 01:39:50.560
I'm kind of glad that we ended with this.
01:39:50.720 --> 01:40:00.079
It does kind of exemplify a little bit the spiritualist movement where there are so many questions that are genuinely left unanswered.
01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:06.960
Even if you take the idea of it potentially being a hoax out of out of all of it, it's still a lot of those things don't line up.
01:40:07.119 --> 01:40:09.359
Why was Patience, who was Patience worth?
01:40:09.439 --> 01:40:10.960
Why does she not want to talk about herself?
01:40:11.119 --> 01:40:13.520
Who or what is she?
01:40:13.760 --> 01:40:15.680
I feel like we've gone full circle here.
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:19.520
It's that you don't we don't know what we don't know.
01:40:19.680 --> 01:40:27.119
You know, somebody is whispering to you behind a curtain and you don't know who or what that thing is on the other side of the curtain.
01:40:27.279 --> 01:40:28.000
Or their intentions are.
01:40:50.640 --> 01:40:50.880
Yeah.
01:40:51.039 --> 01:41:04.479
To not feel like they're crazy, you know, and instead of fearing paranormal experiences, they can understand that potentially these paranormal experiences are just part of life.
01:41:04.640 --> 01:41:04.800
Yeah.
01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:09.039
Be be curious as opposed to being afraid of those experiences as they happen.
01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:09.680
Right.
01:41:09.840 --> 01:41:10.239
Right.
01:41:10.399 --> 01:41:13.600
And and so, I mean, it it did a lot.
01:41:13.680 --> 01:41:17.760
It it did it and it protected people from frauds.
01:41:17.920 --> 01:41:18.239
Yes.
01:41:18.399 --> 01:41:21.039
It took a little bit of time for it to really get going.
01:41:21.119 --> 01:41:26.560
But now there are a lot of things that people do check about mediumship and about those kinds of things.
01:41:26.640 --> 01:41:28.960
And there are things that we know now that we didn't before.
01:41:29.119 --> 01:41:29.359
Right.
01:41:29.520 --> 01:41:32.560
Uh, you know, tactics and tricks that people try to use.
01:41:32.960 --> 01:41:38.800
And we can have an open mind, but we can also have we we we don't need to believe everything that's out there.
01:41:39.119 --> 01:41:39.279
Exactly.
01:41:39.359 --> 01:41:40.079
There can be checks.
01:41:40.159 --> 01:41:40.399
Yes.
01:41:40.560 --> 01:41:41.119
There should be checks.
01:41:41.279 --> 01:41:41.439
Yep.
01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:42.159
This was great.
01:41:42.319 --> 01:41:42.479
Yeah.
01:41:43.279 --> 01:41:44.239
We've talked a lot today.
01:41:44.399 --> 01:41:45.520
Yes, absolutely.
01:41:45.760 --> 01:41:50.479
Thank you so much for for um being here with us if you're still here.
01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:51.920
Oh they're still here.
01:41:52.079 --> 01:41:52.560
They're still here.
01:41:53.039 --> 01:41:53.920
The end of our podcast.
01:41:54.000 --> 01:41:57.920
If you liked it, please subscribe or follow or like and tell your friends about us.
01:41:58.079 --> 01:42:00.960
And don't forget, we want your questions.
01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:02.319
Give us your questions.
01:42:02.560 --> 01:42:04.239
Ask us questions, gosh darn it.
01:42:04.479 --> 01:42:06.720
Yes, at voices v.
01:42:07.199 --> 01:42:07.359
Yep.
01:42:07.520 --> 01:42:08.159
VFT.
01:42:08.720 --> 01:42:09.039
Thank you.
01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:09.279
Yep.
01:42:09.520 --> 01:42:11.840
VFT addict at gmail.com.
01:42:12.319 --> 01:42:15.600
Or just comment on our podcast or either or.
01:42:15.760 --> 01:42:16.960
Yeah, on the YouTube channel.
01:42:17.199 --> 01:42:17.359
Yeah.
01:42:17.439 --> 01:42:17.600
Yeah.
01:42:17.680 --> 01:42:19.199
We we want as many questions as you can.
01:42:19.359 --> 01:42:22.880
If you think it's a dumb question, um, we'll be the the the judge of that.
01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:24.720
We won't be answering every single question.
01:42:24.800 --> 01:42:27.199
We will be choosing which questions we want to answer.
01:42:27.439 --> 01:42:29.680
I say there's there is no bad question.
01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:33.920
There just might be a question that we don't answer or we don't get to.
01:42:34.239 --> 01:42:35.920
That's yeah, probably the case.
01:42:36.159 --> 01:42:38.239
Yeah, yeah, it's probably closer to the case.
01:42:38.319 --> 01:42:40.640
Um, but even still, if you have a question, ask it.
01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:41.520
Have a great week.
01:42:41.680 --> 01:42:43.359
Throw away your Ouija boards.
01:42:44.800 --> 01:42:46.399
As long as you say goodbye first.
01:42:47.600 --> 01:42:48.720
Isn't that the way you can do it?
01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:51.680
Yeah, I think you close it off like goodbye, but just don't open it up.
01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:54.000
Yeah, but they have a Luigi board, you can keep that.
01:42:54.239 --> 01:43:00.159
Just as you put it in the closet, if you hear just you know, make sure it's doing okay.
01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:01.039
Thank you.
01:43:01.199 --> 01:43:02.079
Have a great week.
01:43:02.239 --> 01:43:02.640
Bye.
01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:03.199
Bye.