Exploring Esoteric Christianity as a Non-Dogmatic Catholicism with Bishop Bryan Ouellette

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Vestiges after Dark is a philosophical speculation program sponsored by
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the Holy Nicolayan Catholic Church, an independent Catholic church inspired
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by the diversity of early Christianity and in communion with
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the Old Catholic Church. Presiding Bishop Brian will Let presents
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perspectives on esotericism, metaphysics, philosophy, psychology, paranormal research, theology, spirituality,
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religion and Catholicism. We are not affiliated with the Church
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of Rome. Our discussions of Catholicism are broader than and
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distinct from the Church of Rome. The views and opinions
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expressed are those of the individual participants.
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At good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whichever the case
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may be. For all of you listening out there across
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the crazy planet Earth, Welcome to Vestiges after Dark, and
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I am your host, Bishop Ryan will Let, come into
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life from the deep woods of Western Georgia. On this
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June sixteenth, twenty twenty six. Well, we've made it to
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the end of season thirteen. Can you believe it? This
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is the season finale for Well, another winter spring completed,
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and we are going to cover the topic of esoteric
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Christianity through the lens of non dogmatic Catholicism. That's the
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night on Vestiges after Dark. Well, hello, everybody, welcome to
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the season finale of Vestiges after Dark. Once again, I
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am your host, Bishop Brian will Let here with my
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co host Jamie Wolf. Already, I know, Well there's we're
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actually two episodes short because of the technical issues we
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had at the beginning of this season. I think we
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finally have all of that figured out. We now know
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that it was an IP problem all along within the software,
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and that just wasn't made clear to us at any point.
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It took a lot of fighting it out with AI
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and and quite a few vulgar words to actually get
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to the point that we now understand what happened. But
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where good?
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Now, you gave some data center a run for its money.
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Yes, I know they're going to hate me for it.
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But you did figure it out.
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I did AI, So you know it was AI. It
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really was. I mean, it was the only thing that
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had the answer. So we're grateful that we got it
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worked out, and I think we're probably good going forward
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into next season because I'm not going to forget to
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check that one thing. Is that one thing I never
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checked that Now you have to check every single time,
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and uh, you know, updates and various things can change it.
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You know, before we get started tonight with questions from
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the ether, did you see the David Crush David Crush,
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what his statement was?
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I know that they've had a new release, but I
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am not called up on my my UAP saga.
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What he is currently saying is that we have definitive proof,
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it's just up to the White House to release it. Oh,
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of biologics of the but he actually specifically specifically set
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of multiple species of biologics going ranging from bipedal species
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to sentient plasma species. I mean, that's really wild stuff
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for somebody of.
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His basically somewhere between Star Trek and Futurama at this point,
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you know what just release.
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Well, I'm telling right now the plasma based sentient beings
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are not doing anything for the people that think they're
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all demons, because that just further reinforces the idea of
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it being like, oh, it's got to be an incorporeal
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angel then you know, yes, I've.
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Never been a fan of that theory. Just it does not.
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Make It's a lot of Catholics that are more and
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more every day coming across the feed after what happened
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to uh.
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Rosetti in d I'm not sure the name. I don't
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want to get the name wrong. Anyway, a priest was
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was removed from his office in d I.
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Believe it was I'm not sure the name, but.
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His speaking on his theories. But yeah, I had no
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idea it was an extorsist. Yeah, I had no idea
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it was that prolific in the Catholic.
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It's not supposed to be. But I think, as I've
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said before, I think the volume of recent converts in
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the last few years from more evangelical or non Catholic
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traditions have brought some of that mentality to the I
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mean that's not all cases, because you would think an
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extorcists who's been established in the church for a long
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time would would know better. But they're teaching this stuff
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and it's very dangerous, I think. But ironically, I find
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myself in agreement with Catholic answers because they're on our
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side of the fence with this one.
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Well, once in a while, you know, even a broken.
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Clock is yeah, that's right, that's right. But hey, look,
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I mean, I'm they're only teaching and I've only taught
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what the church with the magisterium is taught on this,
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So give them anybody that's teaching that, you know, they
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if they're claiming that it's a Catholic position, No, that's
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a personal opinion because that is not the official teaching
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of the church around. I mean, you're allowed to have it,
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but I think it becomes a bit problematic when you
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can cause unnecessary fear or anxiety within the foundation of
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the faith. Christians are really called to be stronger than that,
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So I think it's dangerous for a priest to teach
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such just like the new.
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Thing now is Steven Spielberg the disclosure.
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Yeah, we're gonna go see it tomorrow.
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Actually full report. Yeah, the timings at a little suspicious.
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It's not going to shake my faith. I got news
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for you, guys. No, I don't see why to begin with.
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But if you've got priests out there teaching.
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That, that becomes a problem, that.
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It's demonic and that this is like the end times,
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they are going to be Antichrist there. It's a great deception.
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I mean, that could lead to faith problems. It could,
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you know, particularly particularly if because it's a question for science,
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it's a question for science, it's not one for religion.
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And if if it is true that there's intelligent life
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and it's been visiting us and and and there's multiple
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species and all these things that are being claimed, if
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any of this turns out to be definitively true, then
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you know what that's going to do is because people
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will cling so harsh, so so tightly I was going
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to say, harshly, but so tightly to their worldview that
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they're not going to know how to deal with it.
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Because that's that's going to be the greatest scientific discovery
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of all time.
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It will put a lot of brains on lockdown.
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Yes, And I don't think, you know, the church needs
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to sort of be the instrument to usher in this
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new way of thinking rather than you know, people trying
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to create fair mongering and all these other things around it.
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So I think, I think it's going to be an
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interesting thing, but it's not going to help matters. It's
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not helping matters with disclosure if people are still demonstrating
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very clearly that they're not ready for it by thinking that,
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you know, scientific discovery is got to be.
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Society, No, I don't think we're ready mentally.
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It might be happening, whether we're ready or not.
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Those of us that are a little more open minded
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and grounded are like, yeah, bring it, come on, why
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are we waiting?
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Bring it on and bring it on right? Bring joining
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us from Australia, we have Father christy Ates. How you
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doing tonight? Father?
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Do all right?
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I'm minded, Jamie said, you know, the real phrase is
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a stop clock is right twice a day. There you go,
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because because because actually a broken clock can just never
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be right.
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That's right.
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No, no, no, I think it was quite useful.
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I think I think I think your characterization was the
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correct one.
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Yeah.
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Also, I was just point in the group chat. Priest
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are just priests.
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That's true.
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Priests are indispensable when it comes to receiving the sacraments
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of the Church. But the pope doesn't often make infallible statements.
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Even if you accept that he can, priests definitely cannot
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make inable statements. So I am a priest. I'm not
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I'm not slugging off something I don't inhabit. But I'm
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only a priest.
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Yeah, okay, that think we're all with being only a priest, right,
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I get into this to only be a priest. So
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look out here, we are here, we are.
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Yes, I'm fighting that one off as we speak.
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Good luck joining us from a Tennessee. We have April
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and the right. How you're doing tonight in April?
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I'm good. I'm like Jamie, just bring it.
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I want to let these aliens, I.
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Know, I mean, I want to you know, I want
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to sit down play some chess.
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Well, you know what she's supposed to be, Feeline. If
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I'm not mistaken, I'm going to be talking to my
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cats a little.
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Bit more already.
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Yeah, they've they've already been. Yeah, the way my cats
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look at me when they think I don't.
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Notice, I'm I'm all, I'm look I like. I love
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scientific discoveries, particularly new and life changing ones. Those are
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always interesting. So I'm all for it. I'm ready for it.
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And you know, I don't. I don't think here's an
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extors to saying absolutely, definitely, positively not demons.
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If they show irrefutable proof, we're gonna get some good scotch.
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Oh yeah, oh yeah, we'll have to up it to
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the forty year old. Right, Yeah, how about that.
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We're gonna have to go big.
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Yeah, let's go big or go home, all right, let's
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get started with questions from the Ether tonight, April. What
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do you got for us?
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All right? First question was for me and it was
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a follow up from our discussion last week about the abortions.
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Okay, so my.
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Question is, if you choose to allow the child to
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come to term, is that not the same as the
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mother choosing to be murdered and or committing suicide. Those
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are also sins.
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You know, I'm gonna before I answer this, I'm going
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to say, you know, there is not one thing that
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caused more controversy from our little thirty second shorts than
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last week's discussion on abortion. I had to turn comments
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off on TikTok just because TikTok was producing the worst
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vitriol I've seen. Facebook wasn't too bad, a little bit,
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on YouTube, Instagram, not at all, But on TikTok, it
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was just pure vitriol. Clearly, people that don't follow me,
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don't follow what I do, don't understand, didn't watch the show,
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making assumptions and everything else. And you know, I want
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to make it very very.
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Clear, they are zealousy, They truly are.
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But but you know, they were talking to me like
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you know, you don't I don't get to make decisions
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for people. And I said, lady lady, First of all,
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if you actually watched my show, you'd know I'm a libertarian,
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which makes me politically pro choice. It does. And the
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second thing is you got to remember there's a difference
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between being pro choice, which is a political designation, and
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being anti abortion, which is a moral religious one. And uh,
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I have always held that it is the job of
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the church to teach morality, not the government. So if
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the if people want to do a moral things, I
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don't think that a free society is at liberty to
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stop them. But I will say it is up to
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the church to teach what is correct behavior. And that's
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all we were doing last week. That's all I ever
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do from week to week. I am very as far
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as my libertarian leanings are politically, I believe in live
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and let live. You do you, I do me. I
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don't want you influencing my life, and I don't want
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to influence yours. But as far as if we're going
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to talk about what it means to be Christian, well
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that's a whole other discussion because I have a different
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obligation to that than I do to secular society. So
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I just wanted to make that clear, just in case
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any of those people from TikTok we're listening, or are
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listening right now, because we are streaming right now on TikTok,
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and I want to make it very clear. Yes, it
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is possible, even a Catholic bishop, it is possible to
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be politically pro choice and still be very anti abortion
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on a moral level. Because I teach on morality, that
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is my expertise. I don't teach on government. I mean,
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other than the fact that I want.
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It on my life in fairness, this is you know,
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and to show that this is allowable within the life
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of the church. This is where we disagree, you know,
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because you could make from my opinion, from my point
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of view, even though I'm lean libertarian, definitely.
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Uh you could.
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You could say the same thing about murder, you know,
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so we should have any laws against murder because it's
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a moral teaching.
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Well yeah, but no. But but the problem is everyone
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agrees on what murder is. No one. We do not
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all agree on what abortion if abortion qualifies, that's the difference,
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you know, No one did. No one denies that if
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you go and you take a gun and you shoot
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someone in cold blood, that's murder. Not one person liberal
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or conservatives is going to think that that's not murder.
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But well, hang on, hang on, unless you ran a
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health fund and you were walking through New York and
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someone shot you from behind, and all of a sudden,
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that person is now a hero.
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Well so I'm not so sure that. I mean the law,
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you might you might call a person a hero, and
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and I mean I mean you might you might be
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able to say that there's different categories that qualify as
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what is murder. But you know, okay, let's make it
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more simple. Let's just say a home invasion. Some guy
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just breaks into someone's house and takes a you know,
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semi automatic gun and just you know, shoots all of
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the family members. I mean, I think everybody would agree
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that that's murder. That's a clear, clean cut one. Abortion
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is not in that camp, unfortunately. I mean, do I
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think it's murdered? Yes, I do, you know, but.
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Hence why I'm we're allowed to disagree.
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By the way, Yeah, of course, but the and I
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accept that, I accept the nuance that you're introduced.
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Of course, that's a reality.
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Yes, the fact that people think differently about about a
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human being in the womb than they do from one
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outside of it.
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I acknowledge that that is true.
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And that's where the difference is. If we could have
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irrefutable agreement that this was indeed a a human being
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that that falls under the rights of human beings. If
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we had absolute agreement on that, you know, then I
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don't think we'd have an issue of abortion. It wouldn't
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even that but when we didn't have to get into
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the morality of it, because there wouldn't be any discrepancy
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in how.
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It explains explains why such the pushback on social media
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like Twitter, sorry, like.
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What's it called? I don't even use it, TikTok. Sorry.
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It explains the pushback because in order to.
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Arrive at the point where it's where the clarity is
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therefore all to see, you know, people don't want that
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because it's the same reason people don't become religious. It's
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because it requires the sacrifice, It requires something of you,
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and so people are going to push back in the
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direction of things that make their lives easier, to indulge
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their own appetites rather than to sacrifice something. So that's
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why you get the pushback on so that's why you know,
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for me, I'm going to keep pushing that because I
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believe that it's true, and it's why the Catholic Church
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isn't going to change his teaching on it.
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It's why Pope Leo.
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Heroically goes to the most left wing Spanish government that's
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ever existed, goes into their parliament and tells them that
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abortion is wrong.
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Yeah, and there's really nothing wrong with with a church
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leader going into a Yeah. I mean, that's a different matter.
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But when you when you when you use the church,
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particularly in the United States of America, where there's a
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very clear distinction between you know, what is secular and
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what is is not secular, I think you you run
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a dramatic risk of compromising the nature of freedom when
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you use the church as a vehicle through pushing a
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a a worldview that has a moral ramification. And right now,
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whether you know the argument, yeah, right, and but but
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not but not as a not as a as a
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as a vehicle for the state. I don't think it
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should be something that is you legislation because again, as
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I've used this example before, I don't want something like
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what's happened in the UK, for example, where the entire
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country is being overrun by Islam to the point that hey,
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one day maybe Sharia law will take a footing there.
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And now they start telling, you know, European English citizens
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how to live their lives according to Muslim values. I
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would not want that happening at all. So I look
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at it in the same light. I understand that there
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are people in the United States of America that want
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nothing to do with the Church, hate Christianity, they're not
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compatible with it, and you know what, we don't want
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them stay over there. That's fine. However, I can understand
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that they don't want us telling them how to live
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their life or how to make decisions in compromising what
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they see as their freedoms. I don't want to be
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standing in the way of that for them. I don't
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want my religion to be something that they can target
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for that. Do I teach what's right? Yes, I teach
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what's right, but I don't push it legislatively. And I
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and and I think that's where the line gets drawn
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for me, particularly here in the US, because of the
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the fact that that is I mean, I understand that
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separation of church and state is and what people think
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it is. It doesn't mean that the church can't influence
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the state. It's that the that the state can't interfere
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with religions really to protect religion, not so much to
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protect the state. However, that being said, I still think
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it's a good divide to keep in their own respective
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categories and leave each side alone.
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I mean, I'm at risk of turning the show into
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something something else, so I'm going to stop.
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But we haven't even gotten to the question yet.
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But I think it's interesting because there's a sort of
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a paradox going on because the principle of the separation
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of church and state, which I agree with too, by
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the way, I mean, you know, I was a pret
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to the Church of England and the state has destroyed
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the Church of England, right so so so absolutely what
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you just said is right. But here's the paradox. The
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separation of church and state is a principle that can
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only subsist within an overall Christian framework. And that because
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and let me tell you what I'm what I mean
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by that, And a lot of people misunderstand.
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This when I say it, what we what?
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What what happens absent Christianity being the default, Even if
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people are not particularly religious or bothered about the church,
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or don't even know.
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Believe in God.
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You know, I grew up in a in a in
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a culture where the default was even atheists were Christian atheists.
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If you know what I'm saying, we no longer exist
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in that world. Well you may, you might do in America,
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but we don't do anywhere else. Well we don't do
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in Britain or Australia. That here's the problem. The state
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is creating its own religion and so and so and
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now that that is church and state. It's not the
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Christian Church, it's whatever this new religion is.
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I'm calling that church.
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Okay, that's the bit I miss out, And people misunderstand
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what I'm saying.
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That church and state is one and the same. And
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so you've.
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Actually already got the cudgel of legislators forcing you to
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believe a religion, and you know, the and load to
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mention this topic, but the easiest one to bring up.
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And it's going on in Britain and to a Lessterer
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extent in Australia, although it's growing in force, is all
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of a sudden we have speech police.
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And so you know, if a woman says.
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I don't want a man competing in my rugby match
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she all of a sudden get arrested, because that transgresses
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the religious beliefs that the state has now enshrined in
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what it is. So it's sort of talking. It's sort
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of getting too what you were saying about if you
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ended up with Muslims taking over and bringing in imposing
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Shria law. But since this is my issue, absently Christianity,
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the state creates its own religion and that is enforced
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by the state in the same way it was when
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the early followers of Jesus were hamstrung because they wouldn't
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offer incense to Roman gods.
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Which is all and I agree completely, which is all
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the more reason why I think the separation has to
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be immutable. It has to be immutable on both sides
397
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of the fence. Now, even though it was designed to
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protect one over the other, I think it has to
399
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be absolutely separate for all.
400
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:34.279
I'm saying it because the secular religion is political, so
401
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.440
I don't know what to do about that.
402
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.960
The only thing you can do about that is vote libertarian.
403
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:42.759
That's the only thing you can do about that, and
404
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:43.640
people don't want to do that.
405
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I am a member of the Liberalian Party in Australia.
406
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I see. The reality is the reality is that you know,
407
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whether you vote Democrat or Republican, whether you're a conservative
408
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or a liberal, both parties want to control aspects of
409
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.680
your life. Both want and they and when you really
410
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.119
weigh them, it's it's almost equal. It's just different values,
411
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different priorities, but both are Yeah, well we end up
412
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game both, Yeah.
413
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.960
The Red's game and they do that control. They do
414
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.200
that control with more and more and control.
415
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So you don't need to persuade me on that exactly.
416
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So all the more reason why I always default to
417
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whatever provides the most freedom, even if it provides freedoms
418
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that I find reprehensible, is it has to be protected.
419
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:35.880
I have to protect reprehensible freedom in order to protect
420
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all freedom. It's there's no other way around. It's kind
421
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of like when Tracy put up we had a little
422
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bit of the quick talk about this upstairs before the show,
423
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and Tracy made a fantastic point. It's it's the same
424
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.279
thing with the Second Amendment. You know, there's a lot
425
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.359
of people that are like, oh, just restrict all guns
426
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.960
because you know criminals can get them and kill people
427
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.839
with them. And the fact of the matter is, yeah,
428
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.559
we have to allow. We have to allow to in
429
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.599
order to be able to have the right to bear arms,
430
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:04.799
we have to allow the fact that sometimes the wrong
431
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people are going to get hold of them. That's part
432
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of it.
433
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Freedom.
434
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Freedom equals risk, yes, you know, and so I mean,
435
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:15.480
I should You've actually just named the difference between America
436
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.759
and everywhere else, and why perhaps I'm more I'm right
437
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.079
to be more concerned in Australia than you need to
438
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.519
be in America. We don't we don't have a first
439
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.640
Amendment and we don't have a second Amendment. That's true,
440
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.400
and so so for me, this is a this is
441
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:32.519
a real, like instant danger because as soon as legislations
442
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.759
passed in Australia or in the United Kingdom, it's in
443
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a sense total.
444
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A much greater existential threat with every new issue than
445
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we are because of our con safety valve.
446
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.200
The safety valve used to be the monarch.
447
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.559
Actually, but what's happened throughout the twentieth century that the
448
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.759
powers of the monarch were softly you know, we're not used.
449
00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.680
I mean, you know, it's heresy to criticize Queen Elizabeth.
450
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.799
I second. But actually she was wrong not to intervene more.
451
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Because that, in a sense was our was our first amendment, right,
452
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.359
and when once that stops, you know, once they're literally
453
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only a ceremonial head.
454
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:17.759
You know they should be largely that.
455
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.680
But once they're only a ceremonial head, where's the safety valve?
456
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.960
Well there isn't one, and that's why you're seeing people
457
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.279
right in the streets in Belfast and London.
458
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:31.920
I mean it's yeah, see I think that. I mean, no, no,
459
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.599
you're fine, because it's actually really a lot of food
460
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.000
for thought that we can maybe take into the summer
461
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.680
specials as well, because I mean I've thought about to.
462
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.319
Be very grateful for your constitution.
463
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:41.720
Yeah.
464
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.279
Well, see, the Constitution is sort of like our monarch.
465
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You know.
466
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.119
That's the difference between America again, and and and and
467
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:50.240
and you know the European system is that we never
468
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.720
had a monarch. We we did everything we could to
469
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.400
get away from that. But once yeah, well none as
470
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Americans though, I mean it was more this perhaps, but
471
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as far as like the Constitution is our replacement for
472
00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:08.480
that became our protection, whereas the monarch was your protection.
473
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.079
And what you guys did is you get rid of
474
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:13.839
your the power of your monarch without putting a constitution
475
00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:16.079
in place to protect the people. And that's where you're
476
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:18.960
at right now. I really think that's why Europe is
477
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.119
in such crisis. And yeah, Australia wouldn't be too far
478
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.160
behind if if they're not careful, they could they could
479
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.559
very much end up the same way. It's it's kind
480
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:29.000
of scary to think about it, but you do need
481
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:31.000
to have something, so yeah, I'm all for it. It's
482
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.359
like I do think that I'm not a huge I
483
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.279
don't think a constitutional monarchy would be great for Americans,
484
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.839
but I do think Europe needs it. I do, I
485
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.200
really do, and I think it needs a more powerful one.
486
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:43.599
I think you need a little more than a constitutional monarch.
487
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.799
I think you need to go back to where the
488
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:46.599
king actually can do something.
489
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:47.279
You know.
490
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.440
He actually can. It's just that it's fallen into disuse.
491
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.400
It's like, bring it back, bring it back as you need.
492
00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:55.599
You need protection, you do.
493
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.160
But it's like in rugby league, any roog league fans,
494
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.839
especially Australia a big you still have still scrums in
495
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.880
rugby league right union, yes, but by convention they don't
496
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.079
push anymore but in rubunion it's a really all They
497
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:11.680
go for it and try and make ground. You know,
498
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.400
in rugby league they don't buy convention, but they but
499
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:15.440
the rules say you can.
500
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:16.440
They just don't.
501
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:21.880
They don't bring stop pushing. Yeah, tell them to start
502
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:24.640
pushing his power. Yeah. I always felt they were really
503
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.599
in control anyway. All right, April, let's let's let's ask
504
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.400
the question again, because we're probably so far I know,
505
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:32.920
I know what the question is, but just for the
506
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.200
sake of the audience, we've gone so far off the
507
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.480
deep end here, let's hear it again so I can
508
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.319
answer it this time.
509
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:43.599
Okay, So the question is, if you choose to allow
510
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.160
a child to come to turn to turn, is that
511
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.440
not the same as the mother choosing to be murdered
512
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.279
and or committing suicide, which are also seems.
513
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.119
No, it's neither murder nor suicide in that particular case,
514
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.519
because what you're talking about here is that a person
515
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:03.759
is faced with a critical medical situation, and we are
516
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.880
not and this might be surprising to some people, but
517
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:12.400
we're not morally compelled to seek treatment or not. You know,
518
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.440
a person can morally say I don't want treatment for
519
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.559
this terminal illness or we can say, yeah, do it,
520
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.799
do whatever you can to to say, we're only required.
521
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:28.119
We're only required to at least from the standpoint of
522
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.880
the Magisterium, is to not do harm. But as far
523
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.839
as as far as like what a person deems is appropriate,
524
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.160
medical intervention is really up to the conscience of the individual.
525
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.759
So it's actually the opposite. And I gave an example
526
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.160
to you in this in the on the network about
527
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:53.960
the Saint uh Gianna who was pregnant with her fourth
528
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:58.400
child doctors discovered or Tom she's a contemporary saint. She
529
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:02.319
had doctor's discovered a tumor in her uterus, and she
530
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.880
had several medical options that were presented to her, one
531
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.920
of which was a hysterectomy or another that was treatment
532
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.440
that would likely have endangered the child. Okay, she chose
533
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.720
the conservative surgery, so she still opted for medical intervention,
534
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.200
but said that if it came down to her life
535
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:25.000
for the babies, that they need to save the child,
536
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.079
which is exactly what ended up happening. And the Church
537
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.720
canonized her in two thousand and four for this that
538
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.279
was not considered murder because she wasn't trying to die,
539
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.559
she wasn't trying to wasn't suicide. She wasn't trying to
540
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.359
end her life. She was already in a medical crisis
541
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:47.759
and receiving treatment and decided to give her life for
542
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:52.359
the sake of the baby, which is not completely Yeah, yeah,
543
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.920
I do too, And I'll be honest with you. It's
544
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.680
not unlike Christ because I mean, he gives his life
545
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:00.839
for ours sake, you know, So it's a very Christian
546
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.960
thing to do. Martyrs have done this, Padre not not
547
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:10.359
Padre pou. Saint Maximilian Kolbe a great example of someone
548
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:14.039
who gave his life for the sake of another. Okay,
549
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.799
so that's that's perfectly fun because it's not murder. Is
550
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.720
the involuntary, intentional killing, the taking of a life of
551
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:29.079
another person, That is I'm sorry, Yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, no,
552
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.960
I'm sorry, you're right, thank you, thank you. Voluntary, not
553
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:38.359
the I'm speaking in reverse now, not the involuntary taking.
554
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.319
It's like, for example, if this is an involuntary death,
555
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:43.559
you're not choosing to diet just as a consequence of
556
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.279
what's going on with your medical with you medically. Same
557
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:52.960
thing with war. Killing people in war is not murder, Okay,
558
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:57.079
that is not murderous acts. Now doesn't mean that murders
559
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.359
X can't happen within context to war, but fighting a
560
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.960
war is not murder, not by the moral standards of
561
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:05.640
the church. This is something I had a hard time
562
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.599
explaining to people on TikTok, which is why I just said,
563
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:10.599
you know what, fuck it, I'm going to just turn
564
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.200
off comments and then maybe we'll come back to it
565
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.160
when people can actually act like adults and have an
566
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.680
intelligent conversation. But right now they're not ready for an intelligence.
567
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:26.720
I know, and I I mean sorry, I'll not say
568
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:28.880
what I want to say because will take you off.
569
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:32.519
That's fine, I mean, do me the favor, you know,
570
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.759
kick me off. But my point is, my point is
571
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.519
with TikTok, Okay, they weren't willing to have an intelligent conversation.
572
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:45.319
They could not understand the difference, the difference between making
573
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:50.839
a moral determination, making a philosophical determination, making a political determination,
574
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.160
making a scientific or healthcare determination. These are not always
575
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.880
the same thing. Okay. Now, it does sometimes seem that people,
576
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:03.359
because they're so categorical in their thinking, and as a
577
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:05.920
categorical thinker, will be try to lump it all into
578
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.760
something that's convenient and easy to think about, but the
579
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:12.840
reality is these don't neatly fit into their own unique packages,
580
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:15.119
and which is why the example that we talked about
581
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.559
last week that dealt with, you know, ken a woman
582
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.519
who's dying, you have an abortion, well, you know that's
583
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.920
where I was. I was even a bit confused by
584
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.920
it because the language that was being used was not compatible.
585
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.519
And the interesting thing is is that the document what
586
00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:39.880
was the document again, father, Oh, do you remember the
587
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:44.239
one that talks about look it up? That came out
588
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.280
in nineteen ninety five, which incidentally was when I was
589
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.840
in seminary. So it explains why I had never heard
590
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:56.960
anybody talk like that, because that document was not really
591
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.920
well known yet and we were still very much off
592
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.719
on an earlier understanding, which was like basically a no
593
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.840
tolerance policy towards anything that even remotely looked like an abortion.
594
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.480
Now you know again, because the church does grow in wisdom,
595
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.400
and this is an example of how, you know, as
596
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.239
long as the abortion is not the goal. You know,
597
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:21.719
if there's an unintended consequence of the death of a child,
598
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.519
that's not abortion. These people on tik Tok could not
599
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:27.519
understand that. They're like oh, it's the same thing medically. Okay, me,
600
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.960
medically maybe it is, but it's not the same morally.
601
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.840
How can you not understand that it's medically and morally
602
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:36.239
they're two different things. And honestly, our show was dealing
603
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.519
it with it for largely a philosophical side, which is
604
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:43.440
even very different from the moral and healthcare side of things.
605
00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.960
So you know, this was this is what makes the issues.
606
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.559
It's really it's really going straightforward.
607
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.320
It's the difference between killing I mean, this is always
608
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.239
the I mean the risk of Godwin's law.
609
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.000
There's the there's the.
610
00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.039
Question that this asked a lot, would you go back
611
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.360
inside and kill baby Hitler?
612
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:00.559
Right?
613
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:05.079
Is the difference between killing baby Hitler and killing Hitler
614
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:08.360
in nineteen forty five? There you go, Okay, there's the
615
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:13.000
bloody difference. It's the same act. You're killing the same person.
616
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.159
But one is of an innocent baby that's not done anything.
617
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.360
One is of somebody who's declared war and murdered millions
618
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:19.800
of people.
619
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:20.920
So there you go.
620
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.239
There's a difference for you that even a TikToker should
621
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:25.039
be able to understand.
622
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.400
I would think so, but I wouldn't count on that one.
623
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:28.320
I wouldn't count on it.
624
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.119
Well a week when they start seeing well.
625
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.400
Won't because my comments are off, they might not go
626
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:36.719
back on It's on next season.
627
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:40.320
I don't blame yet when I when I picture, when
628
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.079
I picture a TikTok user, and I should be careful
629
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:44.920
because I'm sure, I'm sure at least one of my
630
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.559
children uses it. But when I when I picture a
631
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.960
TikTok user, I see, you know, a mean girl with
632
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.480
the intellects of Ralph Wigham.
633
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.840
That probably makes up a great majority of the users,
634
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:01.920
all of them, of course, but a great majority of
635
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.880
no doubt. No, it was a very low, very low
636
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:09.760
intellectual capacity that I was seeing in that particular video. Now,
637
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:11.199
usually TikTok's not so bad.
638
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.559
It's also owned by a government that's rather promoted abortion
639
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.079
for the best part of at years so far.
640
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.480
Yeah, I guess nobody cares about that anymore. I don't
641
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.079
know what happened with it. Do you ever find out
642
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.280
what Trump did with it? Did we know?
643
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.480
I thought a private buyer. They kept it quiet, and
644
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:27.320
someone bought it.
645
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.599
I think it was just the talking point and then
646
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.880
they moved on to to Iran and everything else. Now aliens,
647
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:37.960
So yeah, it's always aliens, So April, that's the best
648
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.360
I can give on that one. It's not it's not
649
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.440
a murder because the person. It's not suicide because they're
650
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.719
not wanting to die, they're not trying to die. And
651
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:47.599
it's not murder because they're not trying to kill anyone.
652
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.280
They're actually trying to save lives. And sometimes, yeah, that's
653
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.440
the question, that's the moral aim. So in a medical situation,
654
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.800
sometimes someone has to go and the difficulty becomes who
655
00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:00.719
becomes the more important person? I would say, whoever's the
656
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.679
most viable, you know, I would.
657
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:04.800
Say why she was canonized by the way, because actually
658
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.320
she could have legitimately had surgery to remove the cancer,
659
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.360
which would have had the unfortunate effect of killing the baby.
660
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.360
But and that would have been okay by church teaching.
661
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.840
Yeah, that would have been. But she was canonized because
662
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:18.639
she chose the harder.
663
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:20.920
Choice, is a sacrificial way.
664
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:24.960
A sarcrificial and a selfless decision. So it's actually morally
665
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:29.320
superior in a way. So you know, that's a challenge
666
00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:30.800
for some people today. I think.
667
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.320
We're saying that some moralysis is better than others, and
668
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:37.800
that always will get you in trouble. You know, the
669
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:39.840
same with the culture, or some cultures are better than others.
670
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:41.920
If you say that, you're in big trouble on TikTok.
671
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.360
Yeah, I agree, but it's true. Well, they don't understand philosophy.
672
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.320
I don't teach philosophy anymore. Philosophy is just that's all news.
673
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:50.840
And you know, the only place you can really learn philosophy,
674
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.519
like professionally, like at at a high academic level would
675
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:56.840
be in university. And who wants to go get a
676
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:58.559
degree in philosophy? What are you going to do with that?
677
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:01.199
Because people got to college make money, and.
678
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.519
Most universities now have removed it remote philosophy, and even
679
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:11.760
even the great, even the great universities, I'm low to
680
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.519
name one because I went there and I'm not sure
681
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.360
it's great anymore, but I'm not them. But even the
682
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:23.320
you've seen that, well there was recently at Oxford a
683
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:28.039
professor has been basically censured. Who is who is a
684
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:32.639
professor of philosophy? Even by the way, Richard Dawkins has
685
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.199
has signed the opposition to the vice chancellor saying this
686
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:40.199
is disgraceful because they allowed a protest within his lecture room. Wow,
687
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:48.440
so if Oxford's gone and you can't learn philosophy at Oxford.
688
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.079
Luck, right, you have to. You have to tune into
689
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:53.000
Vested is after dark. It's alive and well here, maybe
690
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.880
not academically, but it leaves. It's it's entertainingly. So we
691
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:58.559
can make the more academic if people want, but I
692
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.599
fear that will happen. Yeah, it's more tangible.
693
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:05.079
We want to communicate it.
694
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:07.880
The whole point of being educated is so you can
695
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.679
then just powro you know, complicated.
696
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:11.719
Memorize things and stuff.
697
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:14.679
Yeah, yeah, and read out words people can understand this
698
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:16.960
to put it in Layman's you know.
699
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.840
I agree with that. All right, April, what's our next question?
700
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.719
Well, I want to say, and I didn't mean to
701
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:27.440
cause a controversy when I ask the question. It's something
702
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:29.920
that's there's a lot of people really struggle with that,
703
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:31.039
and I think it's important.
704
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:34.880
It's an absolutely necessary question ask There's nothing wrong with
705
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.039
asking it. But it is to be noted that there's
706
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:41.800
nothing that can be discussed by a church in particular
707
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:45.719
that will cause more controversy than that subject, particularly today.
708
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:48.599
I mean, it's always been very volatile, but today it's
709
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.440
so much worse because women have been sold a bill
710
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:57.599
of goods that really has been conditioning them to feel
711
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:00.639
that the patriarchy has been trying to chip away at
712
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.280
their rights and their privileges ever since the beginning of time,
713
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.079
and that this is still going on and we're still
714
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.679
doing it, and dirty rotten bishops in the church are
715
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.519
still doing it because they don't They wouldn't be doing
716
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.639
this if they got pregnant. It's only because they can't
717
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:18.719
get pregnant that they're making rules like this. This is
718
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:25.239
how Yeah, this is the attitude, even though it has
719
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.639
nothing at all to do with the subject matter. It
720
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.079
has nothing to do with it, and you can't until
721
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:33.800
you take them through a five year degree. They'll never
722
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.559
understand it.
723
00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:38.119
No, but that's why they do it, because the subject
724
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:40.519
matter is not on their side. I mean, you know,
725
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:44.199
and that's why it's you know, a distraction to say,
726
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:49.079
because when I engage with this, I choose not to argue. Okay,
727
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.199
let's accept that I'm a patriarchal woman hating Ma'm.
728
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.119
Okay, let's say that is read now came we get
729
00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:56.079
to the argument.
730
00:41:56.199 --> 00:42:01.239
You misogynists. That's what they'll say.
731
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.159
That's what.
732
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.679
Well, the response is I wouldn't talk to someone who
733
00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:11.760
believes that. Okay, so you have no interest in the
734
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.519
arguments episode, there's no point resisting. I mean, I said,
735
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.360
I sent the Bishop of hit a hit piece on
736
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:20.039
me that the guard are left wing. Guardian journalist had
737
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.480
written last week and he's the best advert in the
738
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:26.639
world for what I do. And uh, And what's interesting
739
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:29.880
is the paucity of like they can't engage with the arguments,
740
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:32.199
they can just try and say you shouldn't be allowed
741
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:32.639
to speak.
742
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.960
I understand that, and I know why. You know, people
743
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.440
like Charlie Kirk were popular because they, you know, they
744
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:41.320
actually tried to fight against that kind of stuff. I
745
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.119
didn't agree with his methods, but I did understand his.
746
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.519
His became at a price.
747
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.719
It came at a big price, I understood. Look, I
748
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.159
was very critical of his methods, you know, and he
749
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.519
was nowhere near as informed as he liked to believe.
750
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.880
He was about a lot of many things, I'll tell you,
751
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.239
But I I understand the motive. I understand the need
752
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.639
to have to be a voice against that kind of thinking.
753
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:05.159
I'm not sure he was the best poster child for it.
754
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:06.840
I think there are other people that could have done
755
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.840
a better job. But I understood why he did what
756
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:11.719
he did, and I understand why people liked him for it.
757
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.079
I get it. I do. I get it, because you know,
758
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:18.320
you can't just make scapegoats out of your enemies and say, oh,
759
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:20.119
you're the cause of all of our problems because you
760
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.280
check all the boxes. Oh you're male, you're white, or whatever,
761
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:25.760
and you know everything's wrong with you because of it.
762
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:29.199
I mean, that's that's just another type of sexism racism,
763
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.599
and if you don't see it, there's nothing you can
764
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:33.079
do to help you. But it is, whether you like
765
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:34.559
it or not, it is that's racism.
766
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.760
That's what I say, I assume in my gender.
767
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.840
You all right, So, April, what's our next question?
768
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:42.920
All right?
769
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:48.119
Is removing an unwelcome guest from a funeral considered keeping
770
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.079
someone from God? And this came up on last week's Vestiges.
771
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:56.079
Okay, I I think I know the person that you're
772
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.920
talking about. This was a much more complicated scenario than
773
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.559
this question suggests. Now, I I would say that what
774
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:11.800
happened here was I gotta be careful with this one
775
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:13.239
because I don't want to I don't know what he
776
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:21.760
revealed in the chat. But what happened at this particular situation,
777
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:28.320
using as a generic verbiage as I can, is that
778
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.079
there is there's there's challenges within this family, a lot
779
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:39.760
of hard feelings, a young child. His young child became
780
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:46.760
terminally ill and and is now deceased. And this group
781
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.960
of problematic family members were not invited to this funeral
782
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:56.000
but showed up anyway, and long story short, police recalled,
783
00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.440
they were escorted out the The family asked Gord out,
784
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:05.480
accused him of keeping them from God. My response to
785
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.679
this individual was, and this is my answer to the question,
786
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:13.559
is that a funeral the death of a child's not
787
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.920
the time to be getting into that kind of family drama.
788
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.480
The appropriate response would be to grin and bear it
789
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.440
even though it happened, and then deal with it after
790
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:24.360
the fact. I don't think the funeral was the time
791
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.280
to do it, Certainly not to call the police and
792
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.440
get a big dramatic thing involved when people are trying
793
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.280
to be there to mourn. I think that was not
794
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:37.000
the best decision. But you know, they accused him of
795
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.320
being a sinner and everything else. So the fact of
796
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.840
the matter is, look, it's not that there's no sin here,
797
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.360
maybe not the best decision was made, but then again,
798
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:49.199
you're emotionally compromised. You just lost a child for God's sake,
799
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:54.639
so you know it's understandable. But you know, in that
800
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.400
particular scenario, I'd say, no, it would have been probably
801
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.639
better to it's not immoral, don't have them removed, but
802
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:06.039
it probably would have been better for everybody involved if
803
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:09.239
you just been quiet and waited. I think that would
804
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.880
have been the better thing to do. But you know,
805
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:12.599
things happen.
806
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:14.599
I've had to deal with lots of I mean I
807
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.760
did one of the parishes I was at.
808
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:21.079
I mean I would have got maybe three four funerals
809
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:21.519
a week.
810
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:24.199
So I've dealt with a lot of funerals.
811
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.199
And it was a part of the world where there
812
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:33.440
are some spicy people, shall we say, funerals that have
813
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:39.679
involved criminals, biky gangs, all that sort of thing, right,
814
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.679
So I'm not unfamiliar with conducting funerals where there are
815
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.280
family tensions.
816
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.400
Yeah, it's much more common now.
817
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:53.800
I mean it's almost impossible to find, you know, to
818
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:58.519
find some you know, older person that's been buried where
819
00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:01.079
there's not a divorce in the fat right, you know,
820
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.400
and all the stuff that goes with it. So I
821
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:10.000
was pretty ruthless with people and so so, and this
822
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.079
is not really about this person because I don't know.
823
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:13.960
I didn't this passed me by last week, so I
824
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.880
don't I don't know anything about that, So which puts
825
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:18.199
me in a position of strength when I'm.
826
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:22.800
Talking about I think, but I was pretty ruthless.
827
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:27.280
I would say, any service that takes place in my
828
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.119
church is a public event.
829
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:35.239
So anybody can go to a church service. They're advertised that.
830
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:35.599
You know.
831
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:39.320
Now, if you disrupt a church service in the state
832
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.000
of New South Wales, that's a criminal offense.
833
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:44.320
The police can come and remove you with that. I
834
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.440
do agree with that, and it's quite reassuring law.
835
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.400
I think that's quite a good law actually, And so
836
00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.440
in England, not the common law, parish parish councilors have
837
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:55.800
powers of arrest. Actually it's it's the origin of the
838
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:59.920
police force came from the parish church church wardens how
839
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:00.599
powers of rest.
840
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:01.960
It's while they carry staffs of office.
841
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:03.760
It was to hit people with, you know, and from
842
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:06.280
that we end up with with parish constables and then
843
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:11.440
police constables and then it goes out. So so but
844
00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:13.519
I used to say, it's a public event. Anybody can
845
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:15.320
come to an act of worship. I can't stop them,
846
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.199
right and I wouldn't want to stop them either, But
847
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:23.920
I can't stop them. But I was I would sometimes
848
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.119
I had the police on standby outside because they were
849
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.679
dangerous people, and I was a police chaplain and so
850
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.639
they'd always come and help me out anyway at an
851
00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:37.960
ex copper so and I used to say, look, anyone
852
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.079
can come. Anyone's welcome to worship. If there's any nonsense,
853
00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:44.400
you're gone. And I'm in charge of this church, you.
854
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:49.760
Know, Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I think the real issue
855
00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:50.599
here is that.
856
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.400
Off the family in other words, you know, because it's
857
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.119
really unfair.
858
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:02.519
This sounds like a desperately horrible saying. And I really
859
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.639
think that the issue really was just you don't need
860
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.639
more drama, particularly right now this, you know, it would
861
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.440
be better to deal with it after the fact, not.
862
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:13.360
Committed.
863
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.599
No, there's no sin. Because they were talking. He was
864
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.159
also told he was also told that he was going
865
00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:20.480
to go to hell for this, and I need to
866
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:22.360
reassure him that no, you do not go to hell
867
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:30.159
for making that original Yeah, so yeah, you're.
868
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:31.880
Fine, You're not going to hell, you're listening. You're not
869
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.119
going to.
870
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:34.519
Help, You're not going Okay, it's just it's just a
871
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:35.880
shitty situation.
872
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:37.880
Committed.
873
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.320
Yeah, yeah, it's just not the best time to do it.
874
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:43.480
Probably should have dealt with it after the fact. But
875
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.559
there's no sin that's committed. Okay, what's our next one? People, No,
876
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:49.159
you can't, and sometimes things happen.
877
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:54.519
Next question comes from Lee off of Facebook, and they asked,
878
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.199
do you think we cause our own problems by speaking
879
00:49:58.239 --> 00:49:59.760
negatively about something?
880
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.679
Well, this is more of a metaphysical kind of question.
881
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:07.159
I would say that it doesn't help you. I'm not
882
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:09.639
going to say in all situations that all of your
883
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.000
problems are the result of being negative, but I will
884
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:14.440
say if you are a negative person, you're going to
885
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.559
have your lion's share of problems. Like a tracts like
886
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.719
that is one of the definitions. Yeah, I know, right, Yeah,
887
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.119
and so it is. It is the fundamental primary occult
888
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:28.360
law that exists for all of us. Whether you believe
889
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.280
in the occult or not, whether you like it or not,
890
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.239
whether you're afraid of it or not, does not matter.
891
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.320
The cult doesn't care if you like it or are
892
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:35.920
afraid of it or if you believe in it, it
893
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.400
does not care. It is a material type of thing,
894
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.800
but it does exist. These laws do exist, and it
895
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:43.760
may be the better way of putting it to rest
896
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:46.000
people's minds is to not say there are cult laws,
897
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.679
even though they are, but to understand what an occult
898
00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:50.840
law is, and what an occult law is is that
899
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.599
which governs the incorporeal parts of the cosmos, the things
900
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:58.559
that science cannot rationally observe, and then make a law
901
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:00.519
based upon what it can observe. So you get the
902
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.199
laws of physics, which are physical laws, but the laws
903
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:08.000
of the incorporeal parts of this cosmos operate under a
904
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:11.440
different series of laws, and like attract like is one
905
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:14.320
of the primary ones. So yeah, if you're a very
906
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:18.079
negative person, then negative things are going to find you, okay,
907
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:21.880
because that's what you're resonating out, So you think of
908
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:25.159
yourself as a magnet. The more negative you are, the
909
00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:29.480
more negative types of things that are in your proximity
910
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.679
will be attracted to that. And the more that you
911
00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.639
walk around and expose yourself to the environment, the more
912
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:40.559
that have If places have negative things in them, are
913
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.320
going to come to you and wreck havoc on your life. Likewise,
914
00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:49.079
if you're a very positive person, then the opposite can happen.
915
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.000
My bishop taught me a wonderful practice. I actually wish
916
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:56.079
that I remembered to do it more often because it
917
00:51:56.119 --> 00:52:00.079
is such a wonderful thing. But he taught me to
918
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.840
do my best is part of my exercise of mindfulness
919
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:07.119
that I already integrate into my life. So it's almost
920
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.760
a type of meditation really, But rather than to just
921
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.960
make it a self directed sort of exercise, he encouraged
922
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:16.679
me to make it more external, in the sense that
923
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:20.480
when I'm out there being mindful, to be what he
924
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.920
called a walking blessing. So as you're going through a mall,
925
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:29.039
shopping center, you know, airport, wherever you happen to find yourself,
926
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:32.400
where there's lots of people around, as you cross each
927
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.800
other's path, just quietly in your mind look at the
928
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:41.199
person and in your mind say make God bless you,
929
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:43.840
and you just keep going through as you will. As
930
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.239
people cross your path, you keep you make eye contact,
931
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:50.159
you maybe smile if they see you. And then in
932
00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:53.480
your mind you don't say this, you know a verbally
933
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.039
or out You just make it an internal thing, but
934
00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:58.559
directed at them, you know, or you can even make
935
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.400
the God bless this person. May God bless this person,
936
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:03.719
and you just keep doing this, and I'll tell you
937
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:06.159
right now, you want to see your life change as
938
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:08.880
far as like negativity, if you're finding yourself into a
939
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:10.960
negative pattern, or if you believe yourself to be the
940
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.800
victim of some kind of curse, do that for a
941
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.920
little while. If you're really if you're really attentive to it,
942
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.719
you make it a regular habit to do, you're gonna
943
00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:23.599
see your life change and sometimes radically, very quickly. And
944
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:27.360
that all is based on the same principle of like attracts.
945
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.159
Like this is just doing something good, you know, going
946
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.000
out there and just being an instrument because what the
947
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.559
universe looks at you and then says, oh, you're one
948
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:36.679
of these people that gives blessings, Well, then I guess
949
00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:39.039
blessings need to find this person so that they can
950
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:42.480
give more, and so it increases your own abundance of grace.
951
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:45.639
And this is even without religious belief. That's the beauty
952
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:48.119
of this thing is that God built it so perfectly
953
00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:51.519
into the fabric of creation itself that it doesn't even
954
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.800
need even though it's best if it operates under the
955
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:58.840
understanding of a relationship with God. It doesn't even require one,
956
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:00.880
because it's just how the cosmos.
957
00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:02.159
Is built, raising your vibration.
958
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:05.119
It does, it raises your vibration. And so a lot
959
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:07.000
of times when you see people that are having these
960
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.000
horrible things constantly happen to them, you know, you get
961
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:12.800
into their their their story, and you find they're just negative,
962
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.599
freaking people. They did, they're they're they're angry at the world,
963
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.480
they hate everybody, They're always upset about something, and yeah,
964
00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:26.000
how can that not continuously produce uh negative consequences? Of
965
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:28.079
course it will. So, yeah, the answer to the question
966
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:31.639
is absolutely not all problems. And sometimes bad luck is
967
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:34.280
a thing, you know. And what I call bad luck
968
00:54:34.360 --> 00:54:37.679
is not like some kind of mystical property out there
969
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.599
that we call luck. What I would say luck is
970
00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.960
is essentially just the randomness of the cosmos where sometimes
971
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.360
randomly bad things happen, they have to happen to someone.
972
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:50.599
Sometimes it happens to be you, you know, And but likewise,
973
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.599
sometimes good things happen to people, and occasionally it's going
974
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:55.440
to fall into your lap as well. So it's kind
975
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.440
of an equal distribution type of thing, but a contrary
976
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:01.519
to a lot of belief, God does not control every
977
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:05.119
nitty gritty detail of everything that happens. God controls the
978
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:08.000
things that matter, which is what leads us to salvation.
979
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.159
That's where God intervenes. But the rest of it, so
980
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.880
that's really just a random distribution beyond that. So God
981
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.440
is not orchestrating every little detail, all the minutia of
982
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.280
our lives. That's not true. And that's why bad things
983
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:24.840
can happen, because he's not orchestrating all of it. Some
984
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:27.039
of it's personal responsibility. He wants us to have to
985
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:29.719
learn to deal with these things as well, you know,
986
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:33.800
and and and so he lets bad happen on the basis.
987
00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:36.360
That he's gonna have to live with.
988
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:37.239
Us for all eternity.
989
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:41.440
So yeah, that's right. If you're gonna be with me,
990
00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:42.400
you're gonna know how to deal with.
991
00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:46.360
But it's also where you know, I mean, I know
992
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.400
often we kind of whip evangelicals on this show, and yeah,
993
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.039
sometimes that's sometimes that's required. But I want to give
994
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.760
some credit here, okay, And you know, because and again
995
00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:01.039
for the record, it was an evangelical church that introduced
996
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:05.000
me to the Christian gospel and where I found that actually.
997
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:05.199
It was true.
998
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.519
So so there you go. So you've got to win.
999
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:11.280
You've got a w evangelicals. But I do want to
1000
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:15.280
say that and it happened with me as well when
1001
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.400
you said you can see it in somebody, That is true,
1002
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:21.480
you know, when when when people who've been in pretty
1003
00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:25.000
dark places, which as adults, the reason that people come
1004
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:27.599
to faith is because they're going through some sort of crisis.
1005
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:28.960
Right, Yeah, it's never.
1006
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:31.440
It's never because everything's swimming like you know, you know,
1007
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:35.079
I'm a I'm a billionaire and really enjoying my life,
1008
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.280
and my family are perfect and no one's ever died,
1009
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:39.960
you know, that's not when you come to faith generally. Actually,
1010
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.280
if someone like that does come to faith, hats off to.
1011
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:43.800
Them, that's amazing, you know.
1012
00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:46.920
But but generally it's because they've been in a pretty
1013
00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:51.760
shitty place and so and you can see like when
1014
00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:54.880
people convert that there's you can see it in their
1015
00:56:54.920 --> 00:57:00.119
eyes and and it is a miracle, you know, but
1016
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.880
it's an ordinary miracle, yes, And so I want to
1017
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.320
give evangelical some credit because they really do seek that
1018
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:10.320
in people, and that's a good thing to want to do.
1019
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:12.400
Yeah, something nice.
1020
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:17.239
Everyone has a good side, even evangelical. All right, well,
1021
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:18.639
I know you have a bonus question. I think we
1022
00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:20.440
have time to answer it, so let's go for it.
1023
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:21.800
Okay.
1024
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.159
So it says you have spoken of the psychic filter
1025
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:27.840
that protects us from the spirit realm so we don't
1026
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:30.599
go crazy. Then you mentioned about people trying to find
1027
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.599
ways to take down that filter, like people trying to
1028
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:37.280
become mediums, et cetera. My question is don't we need
1029
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.360
to be able to do that to an extent so
1030
00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:41.639
that we can have a relationship or dialogue with the
1031
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.920
spirit realm on or the first reflection the archetypes.
1032
00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:46.559
What is a safe way to do that?
1033
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:52.760
Okay, So this is a metaphysical question, esoteric question. The
1034
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:57.920
questions refering to the psychic sensor, which is a not
1035
00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:01.440
really a physical thing. It's just a way that our
1036
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:07.519
psyche as protects itself by filtering out spiritual data points
1037
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:11.760
that are not conducive to our existence here in this
1038
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:16.840
material plane of existence. And if we could literally see
1039
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:19.599
all of the incorporeal things that are happening all around us,
1040
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:23.519
we would quite quickly go mad, we would, and it happens,
1041
00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:28.280
and think about your near your nd imagine if that
1042
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:31.320
was what you saw all the time while you're trying
1043
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:34.519
to do police work or trying to do anything. I mean,
1044
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:35.400
it's crazy.
1045
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:39.719
After that experience, some of the uh, some of the
1046
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:43.199
incidents I did deal with in law enforcement absolutely had
1047
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:48.239
a supernatural paranormal uh component to it that I didn't
1048
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:52.960
realize at the time. But reflecting back, yeah, you see
1049
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:56.000
too much. When when you see too much when in
1050
00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:59.239
the moment, you you're trained to file it away for later,
1051
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:04.320
get the mission done, and then then you realize afterwards,
1052
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:05.639
what was that?
1053
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:07.880
You know, And it's really what makes me to.
1054
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.199
See the more you kind of question reality.
1055
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.599
What makes it so dangerous is that it has a
1056
00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:18.800
shelf life. The psychic sensor, it only has so much resistance.
1057
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.760
It's it's kind of like well, any other part of
1058
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.480
the human body, right, I mean, for a while, use
1059
00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:26.840
it or lose it is the rule. But eventually you
1060
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:29.519
reach a point where the more the more you use it,
1061
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:31.960
the more you lose it because it eventually just wears out.
1062
00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.320
And the psychic sensor can be worn out and and
1063
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:39.800
sometimes people go out of their way through occult techniques
1064
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:42.360
to wear it down. And the fact of the matter is,
1065
00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.280
once you break it, you can't get it back, and
1066
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.960
that can absolutely lead to a type of madness, and
1067
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.960
it will present as a type of acute psychosis, but
1068
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.840
it won't be a medical condition at that point. It
1069
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.480
will be definitely something that occurred at more of the
1070
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:00.559
spiritual level.
1071
01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:02.639
And I think we've talked about this before, maybe on
1072
01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:06.079
this show. Yeah, just sitting around smoking cigars. I think
1073
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:08.840
quite a few people that are in mental institutions. I
1074
01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:10.719
think that may have been what happened. And I think
1075
01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:13.800
you've mentioned this too. Their psychic sensor breaks and all
1076
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:16.960
of a sudden, they see everything and it's way too much.
1077
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:20.239
Their brain can't handle it. So next thing, you know,
1078
01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:21.360
I met.
1079
01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:24.400
So many people in law enforcement. That's when you meet people.
1080
01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:25.440
Like that, right, Yep, that's true.
1081
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:29.679
So because like all of the filters are gone.
1082
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:33.360
And they see everything, they can't understand why you don't
1083
01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:33.719
see it.
1084
01:00:34.239 --> 01:00:38.599
So the reality is there is no safe way to
1085
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:42.440
disable it. Okay, it always comes at the risk of
1086
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:47.039
breaking it forever, cannot be fixed, cannot be repaired. You
1087
01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:48.760
only have to learn to deal with it, which most
1088
01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:53.480
people cannot figure out how to do. Religion, and this
1089
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:55.599
is where people are going to be upset with me,
1090
01:00:55.719 --> 01:00:58.800
but it's the truth. Religion offers the most reasonable method
1091
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.800
for bending it. But even this is something I would
1092
01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:05.760
not say it's safe, because religion is not safe. Don't
1093
01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:08.119
think because it has the word Jesus attached to it
1094
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.039
that it's all of a sudden safe. There's nothing safe
1095
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:13.119
about Jesus, all right, There's nothing safe about Jesus. It's
1096
01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:20.559
all sacrifice and and and his disciples, I know, right, Yeah,
1097
01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:23.000
So no, there's no safe way to do it. There is.
1098
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:27.880
There is a skillful way to utilize methods that help
1099
01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:34.599
to do uh productive or provide productive results. But I
1100
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:37.239
would not say there's a safe way, and I would
1101
01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:39.039
definitely say it is not something.
1102
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:40.920
Yeah.
1103
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:47.199
Yeah, that's why you know these are spiritual preparations, because
1104
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.280
that is like the ultimate spiritual reality. It's why we
1105
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:53.719
burn in sense, it's why we have lower the lights
1106
01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:55.880
and burn candles and all the things that we do
1107
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:59.280
at a Catholic mass is to is to gently bend
1108
01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:02.360
the psycho sensor, so we become a little bit slightly
1109
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.840
more susceptible to the spiritual world, but not in a
1110
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:07.400
way that's harmful. Okay.
1111
01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:12.039
Difference between you know, gently opening up a door and
1112
01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:15.880
peeking inside and getting a picture of everything in there,
1113
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:20.840
and then being introduced slowly and as opposed to kicking
1114
01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:22.880
in the door, running in guns blazing.
1115
01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:26.480
Yeah, And unfortunately, most most of the Llewellyn books out
1116
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.880
there that cheats you some kind of new age method
1117
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:30.920
of doing this is going to be kicking in the door,
1118
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.480
and you're gonna end up knocked on your ass. Let
1119
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.599
me tell you. Okay, so we're gonna take our first
1120
01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:36.920
break here at the top of the hour. When we
1121
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:41.039
come back, I will give a presentation on esoteric Christianity.
1122
01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:41.920
Don't go away.
1123
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:54.000
Money bud nail money, bud money, bud nail money, bu
1124
01:02:57.320 --> 01:03:01.800
money money by.
1125
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:07.239
Money, but mail more money but nail money. Put bill
1126
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:12.000
money but nail want to put mail money but mail
1127
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:16.119
more money but mail money mail money, bet mal want.
1128
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:16.719
To put nail.
1129
01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:30.159
Money by mail, money by dail money by nail money, god.
1130
01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:44.199
Money money by money by nail money, bad.
1131
01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:51.079
Money that dail, nail, the money, that nail.
1132
01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:53.960
The money, that.
1133
01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:58.119
Money, bet malt money but nail.
1134
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:15.639
My money.
1135
01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:31.880
Money, oh money money Right now, my neighbor, live, my neighbor, live,
1136
01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:37.199
my my neighbor, bible my neighbor bill money, he got mail,
1137
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:44.079
O money by name, Oh money by.
1138
01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:47.960
Name, O money, got naw.
1139
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:57.559
Money by level, Oh my money by now, oh money
1140
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:02.119
by now home, Oh money mail.
1141
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:42.760
But nail money, money but nail money.
1142
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:15.320
No.
1143
01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:46.039
Money, bud no money, bad, oh money, bad mail, Oh
1144
01:05:46.239 --> 01:08:06.559
money but mailst.
1145
01:06:58.280 --> 01:08:37.079
St st st st st st st st.
1146
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:47.079
St st st st.
1147
01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:49.800
St st st.
1148
01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:54.359
St st st st.
1149
01:08:55.960 --> 01:10:53.079
St corn over hacker, wear, the noise, the musson kirry
1150
01:10:53.279 --> 01:10:55.000
rushed as the toys.
1151
01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:12.960
It's kind of feet by.
1152
01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:20.439
It's kind of feet bay.
1153
01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:27.920
It's not a met bay.
1154
01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:31.520
It's not a paint bay. It's not a paintba.
1155
01:11:32.239 --> 01:11:32.800
It's not a.
1156
01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.199
Welcome back everyone to the second hour of Vestiges after dark.
1157
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:24.239
Now we are going to begin tonight's topic on esoteric Christianity.
1158
01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:27.000
I'll present I'll try to go more brief than I
1159
01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:29.119
usually do on these presentations. I just want to go
1160
01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:31.319
over a little bit about what it is and how
1161
01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:34.479
this church integrates that, what it means to be an
1162
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:37.600
esoteric Catholic church. A lot of people are confused about
1163
01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:39.680
that with Nikola and Catholicism. So I'm going to clear
1164
01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:42.960
it all up tonight. Okay, So don't go anywhere that's
1165
01:12:43.119 --> 01:13:33.600
coming up. Okay, so I you know, usually I go
1166
01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:37.880
the whole segment on these, I'm going to try me
1167
01:13:37.960 --> 01:13:40.279
I have enough material to do that, but I'm going
1168
01:13:40.359 --> 01:13:42.920
to try to keep it more condensed tonight because I'd
1169
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:45.039
like to stick too closer to maybe twenty minutes on
1170
01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:47.000
this and then leave the rest of the show to
1171
01:13:47.119 --> 01:13:49.640
kind of talk about it and break it down from there.
1172
01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:53.039
But I want to get cover some very specific points
1173
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.159
because I think these are really important. I know that
1174
01:13:56.439 --> 01:13:59.079
just from every mass that we stream on the YouTube
1175
01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:02.520
and Facebook channel, I am always shocked at some of
1176
01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:07.000
the ignorance that gets thrown out there during mass. There
1177
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:12.560
are people that will quote that part of the is
1178
01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:15.000
it revelation where they'll talk about the Nickelations.
1179
01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:15.560
That was.
1180
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:23.880
Not the licentious group. Okay, we are, we are, we
1181
01:14:24.079 --> 01:14:28.520
are the Nicollayan Church after Saint Nicholas, you know, Santa Claus. Okay,
1182
01:14:29.399 --> 01:14:32.359
it is, that's that's what it means, That's what the
1183
01:14:32.439 --> 01:14:34.640
church means. And I didn't choose the name, so don't
1184
01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:37.760
blame me. I felt, honestly it was a little bit
1185
01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:42.039
uh well, I felt it was over complicated, but I
1186
01:14:42.199 --> 01:14:44.279
was overruled on that one that was before I actually
1187
01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.159
administrated the church, but you know, I wasn't even a
1188
01:14:47.199 --> 01:14:52.359
bishop at that time. But anyway, Yeah, so the Nicolayan
1189
01:14:52.439 --> 01:14:56.840
Church is after Saint Nicholas, and we are an esoteric
1190
01:14:57.399 --> 01:15:02.600
Catholic church inspired by early Christianity. That's how we define ourselves.
1191
01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:05.560
You can find out everything you want to know, beyond
1192
01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:07.600
what I'm going to be able to cover tonight at
1193
01:15:07.880 --> 01:15:11.159
Esotericcatholic dot org. That's our website. You can also go
1194
01:15:11.199 --> 01:15:13.720
to nicoleand dot org and I C H O L
1195
01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:17.359
E A N. And just click the faq on the
1196
01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:19.680
menu and it will take you to all of the
1197
01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:22.479
questions that commonly asked, questions that we have to deal with,
1198
01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:24.520
as well as our canons. And we're going to go
1199
01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:26.920
over a lot of those canons tonight. Some of those
1200
01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:28.760
things are going to be maybe a little surprising to you,
1201
01:15:28.920 --> 01:15:31.800
some of them are going to be very familiar. But
1202
01:15:32.119 --> 01:15:35.920
I want to start off with what is esoteric Christianity? Okay, So,
1203
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:38.680
because when people hear the word esoteric, they often think
1204
01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:44.439
of like a secret religion, you know, an occult religion,
1205
01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:50.119
hidden elitist teachings and anti Christian mysticism thrown in there
1206
01:15:50.479 --> 01:15:52.119
maybe even some gnosticism.
1207
01:15:52.279 --> 01:15:54.640
Oh yeah, we've had that accusation, of course.
1208
01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:57.079
Because there are a lot of esoteric churches that actually
1209
01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.520
do follow after some of those characterists. We, however, do not.
1210
01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:05.560
The Nicolin Catholic Church does not use the word esoteric
1211
01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:09.279
in this way. But esoteric is the only way to
1212
01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:14.600
define the kind of Christianity that we practice, because in
1213
01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:21.840
our understanding of the the the belief structure of esoteric Christianity,
1214
01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:27.960
there is really only one absolute public Christianity for ordinary,
1215
01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:32.600
for for for all people, but not necessarily a secret
1216
01:16:32.680 --> 01:16:35.560
Christianity for the spiritual elites. All right, So we are
1217
01:16:36.039 --> 01:16:41.600
one hundred percent with the mainstream Christian churches that teach
1218
01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:45.079
that Christianity is for everyone. We believe the same, and
1219
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:47.239
we practice the same. In fact, I would say we're
1220
01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:52.439
actually more open to other people than the mainstream Christians are.
1221
01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:54.439
I think we do a better job of that. Okay,
1222
01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:58.399
And you'll see here in a minute. Esoterech Christian does
1223
01:16:58.439 --> 01:17:01.600
not mean that salvation depends on information, hidden codes, or
1224
01:17:01.640 --> 01:17:05.359
occult knowledge, all right. In the Nicolay Church, what we
1225
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:09.800
mean when we say esoteric, it means that we practice
1226
01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:16.800
a Christianity that is inner, experiential and participatory. That's what
1227
01:17:16.920 --> 01:17:19.840
we mean by it esoteric, because it happens at an
1228
01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:23.560
internal level that is not seen. Okay, even though there's
1229
01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:27.479
the external things that are the same for every sacraments, charity,
1230
01:17:28.159 --> 01:17:34.800
you know, the mass, sermons, pastoral work, outreach ministry, even
1231
01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:37.640
though it has all of those and it does all
1232
01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:39.920
of those things teaching. In fact, we're doing that right now.
1233
01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:46.880
But we believe and our Christianity emphasizes, our method of
1234
01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:53.399
Christianity emphasizes the internal, experiential side of the religion more
1235
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:57.079
so than the external side. That's the difference, and that's
1236
01:17:57.199 --> 01:17:59.680
really the only difference. But that difference is major in
1237
01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:05.399
ways which we'll see here. Christianity, in our understanding is
1238
01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:08.880
something that's entered into, not something you believe in, not
1239
01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:12.359
something that you practice, but something that you enter into.
1240
01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:17.399
And in the Christian context, this is a relationship thing.
1241
01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:22.439
Some realities cannot be fully understood from the outside. They
1242
01:18:22.479 --> 01:18:26.359
can only be understood once you participate in them. This
1243
01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:32.159
is true for love. You can explain what love is,
1244
01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:34.840
you can define it, but it's not the same thing
1245
01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:41.279
as being loved or giving love. You can explain what
1246
01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:43.960
parenthood is like, but it's not the same thing as
1247
01:18:44.319 --> 01:18:48.279
being a parent. You can explain what grief is like,
1248
01:18:49.039 --> 01:18:52.479
but it's not the same thing as actually grieving, okay,
1249
01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:55.279
And the same thing is true for prayer and contemplation.
1250
01:18:56.399 --> 01:18:59.399
We can talk about these things, we can claim to
1251
01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:02.479
know what they mean, but until we actually experience what
1252
01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:07.159
they are intrinsically, we really don't know them. And that
1253
01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:12.039
is the esoteric dimension to Christianity. And newsflash, this is
1254
01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:15.520
not different than what it means dream and not just
1255
01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:18.479
stereum of the Church of Rome teaches, and it's certainly
1256
01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:22.399
not different than what the Orthodox churches teach. It's absolutely
1257
01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:26.119
the same thing. The only difference is what is emphasized
1258
01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:29.720
in our church. That is emphasized over all of the
1259
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:34.800
more legalistic concepts that the Church of Rome gets tied
1260
01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:37.560
up in from time to time, like abortion, politics and
1261
01:19:37.640 --> 01:19:40.520
that kind of thing that we've talked about, right, Yeah,
1262
01:19:40.600 --> 01:19:42.640
I mean we deal with it sometimes. It's something that
1263
01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:47.239
needs to be contended with. However, it doesn't necessarily mean
1264
01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:50.000
that that's what we focus on, okay, And I would
1265
01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:52.960
argue that it shouldn't need to be focused on because
1266
01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:55.399
once you teach the truth and once people know how
1267
01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:57.840
to find the truth. Well, they come to their own conclusions.
1268
01:19:57.880 --> 01:20:00.800
You don't need to force legislation on them. They'll understand
1269
01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:03.640
the immorality of something like abortion. You don't need to
1270
01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:07.720
enforce the law. Okay, what you need to do is
1271
01:20:08.079 --> 01:20:12.800
protect the method and then the understanding comes. So that's
1272
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:15.399
what we mean by esoteric Christianity. The other side to
1273
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:17.600
esoteric Christianity, I think is also something that needs to
1274
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:25.800
be emphasized greatly, is that theology takes on a deeper,
1275
01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:32.800
richer context. For example, the story of Adam and Eve.
1276
01:20:33.439 --> 01:20:36.279
It's very common in mainstream Christianity to say, oh, well,
1277
01:20:36.279 --> 01:20:39.239
these were historical people. You know, they had you know,
1278
01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:44.279
the snake was the devil, and you know they disobeyed
1279
01:20:44.279 --> 01:20:47.640
God by eating that fruit and we fell and now
1280
01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:50.600
you know, we realized we were naked and we had
1281
01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:52.520
to you know, cover up and all this stuff. And
1282
01:20:52.600 --> 01:20:56.439
they take that as a literal historical story. And honestly,
1283
01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:59.840
there's nothing in Christian theology that says you have to
1284
01:21:00.880 --> 01:21:04.920
see it as anything other than face value. There's nothing
1285
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:09.880
that says you have to However, an esoteric Christian understands
1286
01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:13.079
that there's no history here, but there's something much greater
1287
01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:15.880
than history, something much more profound, something much more real
1288
01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:20.319
than history, and that is the ineffable actions and movements
1289
01:21:20.359 --> 01:21:23.640
of God is in that story, and it is actually
1290
01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:25.960
the story of salvation at least how it begins, right,
1291
01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:29.600
And unless you understand the esoteric implications of it, you
1292
01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:32.600
won't really see that this was actually ultimately a good thing,
1293
01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:34.279
which is why the church has a whole hymn about
1294
01:21:34.279 --> 01:21:37.359
it called Oh Happy Fault, because it really was the
1295
01:21:37.439 --> 01:21:40.159
way that we were introduced to Jesus. And that's again
1296
01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:42.680
beyond the scope of tonight's show, because I'm just giving
1297
01:21:42.680 --> 01:21:44.439
you a quick survey of this, and I don't want
1298
01:21:44.439 --> 01:21:46.720
to spend all night on it. But you know, this
1299
01:21:46.840 --> 01:21:48.319
is where we get into and you hear me talk
1300
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:51.760
about how, no, it's not Satan in the garden. The
1301
01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:54.239
snake is yet Sahara. That's our proclivity to do wrong.
1302
01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:57.079
And no, they didn't realize they were naked in the
1303
01:21:57.159 --> 01:22:02.800
way that you know people walk around at Nudus Conlin,
1304
01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:06.199
he's naked. It's not like that. It's it's more like
1305
01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:11.880
we realized the fragility of our existence and then had
1306
01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:17.800
to take on animal skins. Literally mammalian mammalian's skin in
1307
01:22:17.880 --> 01:22:21.079
the in the form of primates, in order to now
1308
01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:25.000
exist in this fallen, broken universe that now we inhabit
1309
01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:27.960
because of it something that we don't really truly understand.
1310
01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:30.680
We just know that there's something that occurred. It was disobedience,
1311
01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:33.760
and it was necessary. All of it was necessary to
1312
01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:37.439
have happened for our own growth and understanding, which is
1313
01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:39.439
all an esoteric way of looking at it. Same thing,
1314
01:22:39.439 --> 01:22:41.319
when I talk about Jesus, remember I've said, well, where
1315
01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:43.239
did the devil come from? Then if he's not, if
1316
01:22:43.279 --> 01:22:45.520
he's not in the Old Testament, and if he's not
1317
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:47.680
the serpent in the garden of enow and then where
1318
01:22:47.760 --> 01:22:50.359
why is Jesus talking Jesus talking to him in the desert?
1319
01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:54.520
Why is he tempting him? You know, where did this
1320
01:22:54.680 --> 01:22:58.399
lucifer fallen angel guy come from? And you know, the
1321
01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:02.159
church has its answer. It's a fallen angel rebelled against God.
1322
01:23:02.199 --> 01:23:04.119
He took a bunch of angels with him. He was
1323
01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:07.199
a high ranking archangel or whatever. You know, these are
1324
01:23:07.279 --> 01:23:09.640
things that people will say. Some people say he wasn't
1325
01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:13.279
even archangels, one of the higher choirs. Yeah, they'll say
1326
01:23:13.319 --> 01:23:15.039
that kind of you know, anything that they can do
1327
01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:17.920
to try to explain it, but it's much more realistic
1328
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:21.640
esoterically to understand what really happened. Well, again, if the
1329
01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:26.439
devil is ultimately the yet sahara, the the the proclivity
1330
01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:30.239
of humanity to do wrong, to be self interested, to
1331
01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:33.880
commit evil acts. If that's what the devil or the
1332
01:23:34.239 --> 01:23:36.399
serpent was in the garden the Beeden, and if that's
1333
01:23:36.520 --> 01:23:39.359
ultimately what the devil is all throughout the Christian Judeo
1334
01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:43.800
Christian story, then it stands the reason that if Jesus
1335
01:23:44.800 --> 01:23:48.760
incarnates human flesh and becomes like us in all things
1336
01:23:48.960 --> 01:23:51.800
but sin, that's scripture, not me. That's what Scripture says.
1337
01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:54.000
He became like us in all things but sin in
1338
01:23:54.039 --> 01:23:58.319
all ways but sin. Then where does the where does
1339
01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:01.079
the yet sahara, a part of his human nature go
1340
01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:03.840
because it can't coexist with them that would make him sinful.
1341
01:24:04.359 --> 01:24:08.399
So where's it go? Well, it becomes the devil, and
1342
01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:09.960
that's what the devil really is. And that's why you
1343
01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:13.920
don't really meet this devil until after the incarnation of Jesus,
1344
01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:16.479
because that is the part of his human nature that
1345
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:19.359
was expelled from it. So that he could perfectly inhabit
1346
01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:23.159
human flesh. That's an esoteric telling of the theology. It
1347
01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:26.680
doesn't contradict anything that the Church really teaches, other than
1348
01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:29.039
it gives a more enlightened understanding as to what really
1349
01:24:29.159 --> 01:24:31.520
is going on, and it helps to bridge the gap
1350
01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:36.279
between some of the historical inconsistencies how the Jewish theology works.
1351
01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:38.880
And this is what makes it, I think, a superior
1352
01:24:39.159 --> 01:24:43.520
way of talking about these things. Not necessary, just superior intellectually.
1353
01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:45.600
It might not be for everyone, but you know, this
1354
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:49.199
is a more intellectual kind of church than most, and
1355
01:24:49.359 --> 01:24:52.079
so therefore the people that find this church are looking
1356
01:24:52.239 --> 01:24:55.600
for a deeper kind of understanding. That's why we're here,
1357
01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:58.439
that's why we do this show. So you know, it's
1358
01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:01.159
just a different approach, it's a different theology. There's a
1359
01:25:01.199 --> 01:25:03.760
few different things in our canons which I'm going to
1360
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:07.720
get to here. But esoteric Christianity properly understood is not
1361
01:25:07.840 --> 01:25:12.199
a secret doctrine. It's just Christianity understood from the inside
1362
01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:16.600
and always through direct participation in the divine life, which
1363
01:25:16.680 --> 01:25:23.439
is ultimately what orthodoxy calls theosis. Okay, you know, so
1364
01:25:23.560 --> 01:25:26.800
that's the important thing. Understand the Holy Nicolean Catholic Church
1365
01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:32.600
shares all the major foundations of Christianity with Roman Catholicism.
1366
01:25:33.119 --> 01:25:36.439
All right, we have apostolic succession that we maintain valid
1367
01:25:36.600 --> 01:25:39.479
Apostolic succession. I should say that because people always accuse
1368
01:25:39.520 --> 01:25:41.479
it of not being valid in the summer. We're going
1369
01:25:41.520 --> 01:25:45.079
to go over the Independent Sacramental movement in July next
1370
01:25:45.159 --> 01:25:47.560
month when we have our Summer special, and I'll go
1371
01:25:47.640 --> 01:25:50.279
into more detail on it then. But understand, it's valid
1372
01:25:50.279 --> 01:25:53.840
apostolic succession. We have episcopal governance. That's me all right,
1373
01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:57.439
I'm a bishop. We have Sacramental theology. We don't deviate
1374
01:25:57.520 --> 01:25:59.680
from it. Okay. So you know, while a lot of
1375
01:25:59.720 --> 01:26:02.319
Indian churches will be like, oh, you know what, let's
1376
01:26:02.319 --> 01:26:06.039
go ahead and start ordaining uh women or to the priesthood,
1377
01:26:06.079 --> 01:26:08.359
and let let's let's let's let's let's wine up. Let's
1378
01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:12.800
have lesbian uh female bishops, you know, like we see
1379
01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:15.119
sometimes not even in the Independent Sacramental movement. We see
1380
01:26:15.119 --> 01:26:19.880
that with the Anglicants. Okay, so that's a violation of
1381
01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:24.800
what Sacramental theology teaches. Now, we might from a personal
1382
01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:26.920
point of view, say, hey, you know what women can
1383
01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:27.680
do A good job of this.
1384
01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:28.960
Why not?
1385
01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:32.600
Honestly, Hey, I'd have a full church of clergy if
1386
01:26:32.640 --> 01:26:36.079
I could ordain women, because all I have are women
1387
01:26:36.199 --> 01:26:38.159
that want to be involved in the ministry. I don't
1388
01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:40.720
have any men that really want to do anything. Okay,
1389
01:26:40.840 --> 01:26:44.760
So I could actually have a full staff of clergy
1390
01:26:44.840 --> 01:26:47.560
if I could ordain women. And you know what, if
1391
01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:49.960
it was allowed, I'd do it. I don't have anything
1392
01:26:50.039 --> 01:26:55.000
against it. Intrinsically, I can't make that change because of
1393
01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:59.159
the sacramental theology as it is, that can't be changed
1394
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:01.560
by one bishop. It would have to be changed by
1395
01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:05.399
an entire ecumenical council, and then only after they have
1396
01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:09.800
found a valid means of being able to authorize it,
1397
01:27:10.079 --> 01:27:13.800
and which is very unlikely to ever happen. So this
1398
01:27:14.039 --> 01:27:17.359
is again to show the integrity of this church. We
1399
01:27:17.479 --> 01:27:20.760
don't change sacramental theology because it's now inconvenient. We don't
1400
01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:22.479
change it because, oh, we're not under Rome, so we
1401
01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:24.920
don't have to listen to what the Pope says. No,
1402
01:27:25.279 --> 01:27:28.600
we don't change it because we can't. We're still Catholic.
1403
01:27:29.279 --> 01:27:33.039
I don't need the Pope holding me by a tight
1404
01:27:33.119 --> 01:27:37.239
leash to do the right thing. I'm a free individual
1405
01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:40.640
and I'm a responsible man of integrity. I don't need
1406
01:27:40.720 --> 01:27:44.760
the pope forcing my hand. I know what's the difference
1407
01:27:44.800 --> 01:27:46.760
between what I can do, what I can't do, what's
1408
01:27:46.840 --> 01:27:50.239
right and wrong, and so I do it okay, and
1409
01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:53.840
so no different with the Nicolaying Church. We have liturgical
1410
01:27:53.880 --> 01:27:57.600
worship with the Mass, the Nissine Creed, we recite. We
1411
01:27:57.680 --> 01:28:01.920
don't change it. All right. We have a Christ centered theology.
1412
01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:06.680
It's all about Jesus Christ. We have a contemplative prayer,
1413
01:28:07.560 --> 01:28:14.760
all right. We believe that salvation is is is necessary,
1414
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:17.479
you know, something that we're here to accomplish. But we
1415
01:28:17.560 --> 01:28:19.680
will add to that and say it's more than just
1416
01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:22.840
a legal acquittal from our sins. We will say that
1417
01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:26.159
salvation is not so much about that. That's that's the
1418
01:28:26.920 --> 01:28:30.399
most insignificant part of what salvation is. What salvation is
1419
01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:34.760
is returning to God. That's the important part of it. Okay,
1420
01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:39.319
we're losing you. You're, we're losing you, Jamie, You're you're, you're,
1421
01:28:39.319 --> 01:28:44.439
you're hiding behind the faces. Sorry, we've we've got a
1422
01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:46.520
tighter shot. And she's used to being a little bit
1423
01:28:46.560 --> 01:28:48.640
over there, so she's gonna come a little bit closer
1424
01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:51.239
on top of Yeah, no, you're fine, You're not. You're
1425
01:28:51.239 --> 01:28:53.760
not going to crowd me. You're good, You're good, You're good.
1426
01:28:54.319 --> 01:28:56.199
I just think this is a better shot, don't you think.
1427
01:28:56.680 --> 01:28:57.520
I mean, I think it's a better.
1428
01:28:59.159 --> 01:28:59.359
Yeah.
1429
01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:01.800
Uh, I felt we were too far away. We're looking
1430
01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:03.680
all over the place. Now I can look more at
1431
01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:05.960
you and talk to you instead of, you know, talking
1432
01:29:06.279 --> 01:29:10.520
to someone down there. We also believe that grace is
1433
01:29:10.560 --> 01:29:14.359
what transforms a person that's strictly Catholic. I mean, well,
1434
01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:17.039
not strictly Catholic. It is, it is truly Catholic. Okay,
1435
01:29:18.079 --> 01:29:20.119
I'm not going to get into all the sacramental theology
1436
01:29:20.199 --> 01:29:22.399
I could. We'd be here for hours if I did.
1437
01:29:22.560 --> 01:29:26.079
But you know, we have a strong reverence for the Eucharis.
1438
01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:28.640
We understand it to be the body and blood, soul
1439
01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.520
and divinity of Jesus Christ. We use the rights of
1440
01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:34.880
the Church of Rome in our liturgy because we understand
1441
01:29:34.920 --> 01:29:37.359
them to be valid and validity matters to us. So
1442
01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:39.760
we're not going to like create our own mass because
1443
01:29:40.039 --> 01:29:42.760
you know why we can not. We're not We're not
1444
01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:45.199
under anybody's authority. We can do whatever we want. No,
1445
01:29:45.319 --> 01:29:49.840
we can't. We try to maintain integrity. It's a Catholic
1446
01:29:49.960 --> 01:29:52.039
church regardless of whether or not the Church of Rome
1447
01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:56.960
sees us as as an important part of the system
1448
01:29:57.000 --> 01:29:59.399
of Catholicism. But you know, we're not going to make
1449
01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:02.960
changes because we could. You know, no one's going to
1450
01:30:03.000 --> 01:30:08.359
stop us. You know, we don't see that as useful.
1451
01:30:10.000 --> 01:30:13.359
You know, I talked about the Apostolic community. You know,
1452
01:30:13.600 --> 01:30:18.000
our christology is again completely the same as the Church
1453
01:30:18.079 --> 01:30:21.439
of Rome. There's really no differences there. But there are
1454
01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:23.880
some differences. And this is where we get into what
1455
01:30:24.000 --> 01:30:26.640
I mean by a non dogmatic theology. Now you've heard
1456
01:30:26.680 --> 01:30:30.000
Father Chris and I sometimes talk about this a little
1457
01:30:30.039 --> 01:30:35.560
bit where the definition of how he uses dogmatism is
1458
01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:37.239
a little bit different than the one that I use,
1459
01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:40.439
and I think he's using the more correct understanding of
1460
01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:43.479
the term. I'm using a more vernacular understanding of the
1461
01:30:43.560 --> 01:30:46.119
term because people understand when I say we're a non
1462
01:30:46.239 --> 01:30:49.920
dogmatic church, which means that we're not legalistic. We're not
1463
01:30:50.000 --> 01:30:54.239
going around enforcing the law, you know, declaring sinners and
1464
01:30:54.680 --> 01:30:56.960
saying you're going to Hell until your repent kind of church.
1465
01:30:57.000 --> 01:31:00.560
We're not that kind of church. We we believe in
1466
01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:04.560
personal responsibility, and so therefore we don't feel we need
1467
01:31:04.640 --> 01:31:09.840
to dogmatically rule on things with the exception of sacramental theology,
1468
01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:15.520
and only because to not do that means risking invalidity,
1469
01:31:16.159 --> 01:31:20.239
and I'm not willing to risk an invalid sacrament just
1470
01:31:20.399 --> 01:31:26.000
because I want to put non dogmatic principles above that.
1471
01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:29.239
I can't do that, okay. So are there are limits
1472
01:31:29.279 --> 01:31:32.119
even here in this church where I won't cross certain lines.
1473
01:31:32.159 --> 01:31:34.840
But where I can cross lines is on more of
1474
01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:37.760
the interpretations of certain things, and that's where there are
1475
01:31:38.119 --> 01:31:42.079
some differences. We don't believe doctrine is meaningless. We think
1476
01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:47.800
doctrine is essential, and we are a doctrine focused church. However,
1477
01:31:48.039 --> 01:31:52.560
we don't believe in treating this legalistically. Okay. So that's
1478
01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:55.680
what I mean by non dogmatic. We're not legalistic about it,
1479
01:31:56.039 --> 01:32:00.439
and we're not looking to you know, declare penaltes and
1480
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:05.640
and and put you in in fear of hell just
1481
01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:07.920
because you know you maybe not doing things the way
1482
01:32:08.279 --> 01:32:16.119
we want you to do them, Okay. Roman Catholicism puts
1483
01:32:16.159 --> 01:32:21.359
a greater emphasis on doctrinal certainty. We put our emphasis
1484
01:32:21.439 --> 01:32:26.680
on experiential participation both churches have both. Okay, we have
1485
01:32:26.960 --> 01:32:30.359
doctrinal certainty. Again, Stacramental theology proves it. Okay, we believe
1486
01:32:30.399 --> 01:32:32.800
that we are certain. The Eucharist is the body and blood,
1487
01:32:32.800 --> 01:32:37.920
soul and the divinity of Jesus Christ. And Roman Catholicism,
1488
01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:42.960
you know, has an experiential participation. They understand the relationship
1489
01:32:43.039 --> 01:32:46.119
to God and the need. In fact, receiving the Eucharus
1490
01:32:46.199 --> 01:32:50.319
is about that participation in the divine life. It's just
1491
01:32:50.439 --> 01:32:54.920
that while they will focus more on things like papal
1492
01:32:54.960 --> 01:32:59.079
infallibility and you know, the doctrine, the dogma of the
1493
01:32:59.239 --> 01:33:03.000
assumption of the very Jamrii, and you know, transubstantiation, all
1494
01:33:03.039 --> 01:33:05.840
these things, we take more of an Eastern Orthodox approach
1495
01:33:05.920 --> 01:33:08.560
to these things and just say they're mysteries. It doesn't
1496
01:33:08.600 --> 01:33:10.439
really matter how it happens. We just know it does.
1497
01:33:11.039 --> 01:33:13.319
And what really matters here is that you receive it
1498
01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:17.319
and that changes you and you come to learn more
1499
01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:20.479
about God in these moments, things that people that don't
1500
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:22.760
have God in their life couldn't even begin to understand,
1501
01:33:23.439 --> 01:33:25.439
all right, and it builds over time. It's not something
1502
01:33:25.479 --> 01:33:26.960
you can just take the Eucharus and all of a
1503
01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:29.760
sudden things, just like your eyes are open. I mean,
1504
01:33:29.800 --> 01:33:31.439
it could happen, but I'm not going to count on that.
1505
01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:37.119
It's a relationship. It grows with you. And this takes
1506
01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:39.199
us to some of the things that are different. So
1507
01:33:39.439 --> 01:33:40.800
you know what I'm going to do. I have a
1508
01:33:40.880 --> 01:33:43.199
list here, but I'm going to go actually to Esoteric
1509
01:33:43.239 --> 01:33:44.880
Catholic dot org and I'm going to talk about some
1510
01:33:45.000 --> 01:33:48.680
of these differences in real time. If you want to
1511
01:33:48.840 --> 01:33:51.399
follow along with me, you can go to Esoteric Catholic
1512
01:33:51.439 --> 01:33:56.079
dot org forward slash faq and we're going to skip
1513
01:33:56.239 --> 01:33:59.840
the questions and go down to where it says our cannons.
1514
01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:02.880
And then the first one that we have here, well,
1515
01:34:02.920 --> 01:34:05.880
first i'll read the things that we are different. So
1516
01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:08.640
there's three points here. We are different because we are
1517
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:12.640
a non dogmatic apostolical liturgical system, which I've already covered. Two.
1518
01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:15.840
This is important, but it's going to sound maybe a
1519
01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:18.319
little heretical at first, and it's not. I'll explain why
1520
01:34:18.760 --> 01:34:23.079
we posit that salvation is achieved by faith for works
1521
01:34:23.640 --> 01:34:28.880
and through epignosis. I'm gonna explain what that means shortly.
1522
01:34:29.560 --> 01:34:34.680
And then third, we respect all religions, all traditions, all creeds,
1523
01:34:35.239 --> 01:34:38.159
even though we protect and defend our own traditions boundaries.
1524
01:34:38.760 --> 01:34:40.760
So it's not like we're going to go around and say, oh, well,
1525
01:34:40.800 --> 01:34:43.680
we're invalidating this religion because they don't believe like us,
1526
01:34:43.800 --> 01:34:47.560
or we're going to invalidate Vajryana Buddhism because they don't
1527
01:34:47.560 --> 01:34:51.199
have Jesus in it. No, we respect that as a tradition,
1528
01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:54.439
we respect that as a religion. We respect what they believe,
1529
01:34:55.039 --> 01:34:59.640
but we also protect what we teach. Okay, and they
1530
01:34:59.680 --> 01:35:02.920
don't have to be in conflict at all, and they're not.
1531
01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:05.640
So let's look at some of the things that are different.
1532
01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:07.279
So the first point if you scroll down if you're
1533
01:35:07.319 --> 01:35:12.039
following along, is open adult baptism. Okay. What this means
1534
01:35:12.199 --> 01:35:15.199
is in the Church of Rome, if you are a convert,
1535
01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:19.000
never been baptized, and you want to become a Roman Catholic. Okay,
1536
01:35:19.079 --> 01:35:21.920
what that means is you're going to be asked to
1537
01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:26.720
go through cad cases and it's probably going to be
1538
01:35:26.760 --> 01:35:29.520
about a year and you're going to be taught everything
1539
01:35:29.720 --> 01:35:32.399
that you need to know about the Catholic faith. And
1540
01:35:32.520 --> 01:35:36.279
then on the Easter vigil, well, there'll be some rituals
1541
01:35:36.319 --> 01:35:38.359
in between, like the right of election and different things
1542
01:35:38.399 --> 01:35:40.640
that go on throughout Lent. But when you get to
1543
01:35:40.720 --> 01:35:46.800
the Easter vigil, you will then receive baptism usually also
1544
01:35:47.079 --> 01:35:52.000
confirmation in your first Eucharus. All that same time, we
1545
01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:57.840
don't do that in this church unless it's justifiable. Now,
1546
01:35:58.159 --> 01:35:59.720
I'm not going to say we don't do it. In fact,
1547
01:35:59.720 --> 01:36:02.239
that is the preferred normal way, that's the ordinary way.
1548
01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:04.840
But if we have a person that comes to us
1549
01:36:05.439 --> 01:36:09.239
deeply in need of Christ and says, you know, I
1550
01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:15.039
need him, I'm willing, I'm ready to take him as
1551
01:36:15.159 --> 01:36:19.239
my Lord, God and Savior. I'm not going to be like, well, okay,
1552
01:36:19.319 --> 01:36:21.960
well let we'll put you into to the classes and
1553
01:36:22.079 --> 01:36:24.640
then you know, and then in a year we'll take
1554
01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:26.039
care of it. You know, I'm not going to do
1555
01:36:26.119 --> 01:36:29.479
that to the person. Strike while yeah, strike while the
1556
01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:32.039
iron is hot, and give them the opportunity to because
1557
01:36:32.079 --> 01:36:34.079
they're thirsting for God. And I can tell you right now,
1558
01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:37.479
Saint Paul, he did that. That's the way he did it.
1559
01:36:37.520 --> 01:36:39.159
He didn't tell him I'll get going to wait, no,
1560
01:36:39.319 --> 01:36:41.600
he he he did it on the spot, find a
1561
01:36:41.640 --> 01:36:44.359
puddle on the ground and just do it, all right,
1562
01:36:44.439 --> 01:36:46.439
And so that's what we do. When there is somebody
1563
01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:49.520
like that, we will do what we call the extraordinary
1564
01:36:49.640 --> 01:36:54.600
form of baptism, and that is when they're ready, they're ready, okay,
1565
01:36:54.680 --> 01:36:58.039
and we baptize them on the spot right there, and
1566
01:36:58.439 --> 01:37:01.800
and and and take care of it. And then we
1567
01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:06.840
put them into class to go through catechises to receive confirmation.
1568
01:37:08.079 --> 01:37:11.199
And I should also note that I will also if
1569
01:37:11.239 --> 01:37:13.720
I believe that they are ready to understand the nature
1570
01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:15.479
of the Eucharist as the body and blood soul into
1571
01:37:15.520 --> 01:37:18.760
any of Jesus Christ, well, then assuming they've come to
1572
01:37:18.840 --> 01:37:22.600
that understanding, they can receive their first communion with their baptism.
1573
01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:25.800
But confirmation we say for education, you need to have
1574
01:37:25.880 --> 01:37:28.880
cadchises for that one. But confirmation is also not an
1575
01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:34.479
essential sacrament for salvation. It's not necessary, whereas I would
1576
01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:37.680
say that baptism absolutely is, and Eucharist pretty much is.
1577
01:37:38.119 --> 01:37:42.840
Confirmation is just a great help. Okay. So we do
1578
01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:46.760
open adult baptisms because the Church does open a child baptism,
1579
01:37:46.840 --> 01:37:51.159
no problem, all right. But you know, if your baby born,
1580
01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:54.359
you know they want you baptize almost right away. But
1581
01:37:54.880 --> 01:37:57.119
adults they put you through the whole nine yards. I'm
1582
01:37:57.119 --> 01:37:58.600
not going to say that one way is better than
1583
01:37:58.640 --> 01:38:01.520
the other. I think there's advantag both. But I cannot
1584
01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:06.319
deny someone God if they're if they're ready, and and
1585
01:38:06.520 --> 01:38:11.239
the way our church works, I can't miss or risk
1586
01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.159
losing the opportunity for that person to meet Christ in
1587
01:38:14.239 --> 01:38:16.640
that moment. So we have to operate a little differently,
1588
01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:18.760
and there's nothing invalid about doing it. It's just different
1589
01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:23.560
extrachrononical scriptures. Where does that stand? Some people ask me
1590
01:38:23.560 --> 01:38:27.159
about this. We read them, Uh, we enjoy them, we
1591
01:38:27.399 --> 01:38:30.359
teach about them, but we do not see them as authoritative,
1592
01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:32.960
and we do not use them as part of our electionary.
1593
01:38:33.000 --> 01:38:35.159
We use the same lectionary that the Church of Rome uses,
1594
01:38:35.680 --> 01:38:38.960
so it's the same readings across the entire Catholic world,
1595
01:38:39.359 --> 01:38:42.840
but we do not you know, the Nagamadi, you know
1596
01:38:43.359 --> 01:38:46.439
any dudeo, you know the Judo Can and all these
1597
01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:52.159
other things that that the pseudopigrapha. We we don't get
1598
01:38:52.239 --> 01:38:55.439
into all those other books as authoritative. We just read
1599
01:38:55.479 --> 01:39:01.760
them as expanding our philosophical understanding homosexuality as a complicated
1600
01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:04.479
one in this church. Because I'm going to read exactly
1601
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:07.880
what it says, so I don't miss anything. Our position
1602
01:39:08.119 --> 01:39:09.920
is that the Holy nicol and Catholic Church must not
1603
01:39:10.039 --> 01:39:14.000
stand in judgment against such individuals who define themselves as homosexuals.
1604
01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.319
While we do not dismiss what the Roman Catholic Church
1605
01:39:17.359 --> 01:39:20.079
has stated, we likewise do not affirm it as our
1606
01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:23.159
own teaching in a sense, because we can find ourselves
1607
01:39:23.239 --> 01:39:28.119
in agreement that its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. That's
1608
01:39:28.159 --> 01:39:31.760
the Church of Rome's direct quote. We choose not to
1609
01:39:31.880 --> 01:39:35.439
define it in general terms. However, homosexuality does present some
1610
01:39:35.560 --> 01:39:39.520
sacramental and ministerial challenges, which we shall deal with below,
1611
01:39:39.600 --> 01:39:41.159
and so I'm going to get into a few of those.
1612
01:39:41.199 --> 01:39:44.840
So ordination and homosexuality, that's one we don't have any
1613
01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:49.479
We don't find any substantial reason why the sacrament of
1614
01:39:49.520 --> 01:39:51.960
Holy Orders needs to be refused to someone who's a homosexual.
1615
01:39:52.239 --> 01:39:55.319
We don't feel that that's a problem provided that they
1616
01:39:55.399 --> 01:39:58.640
live a life of celibacy and chastity. If they're living
1617
01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:01.800
a life of celibacy and chastity, then the sacrament of
1618
01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:05.199
Holy Orders is open to them. And that's only not
1619
01:40:05.319 --> 01:40:09.079
because we think that homosexuality is necessarily this horrific act
1620
01:40:09.199 --> 01:40:13.439
of perversion. We don't make a statement on it one
1621
01:40:13.439 --> 01:40:15.720
way or the other because we just don't understand it,
1622
01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:18.079
just like the church room says, we just don't really know.
1623
01:40:18.640 --> 01:40:21.880
It's psychological genesis. We kind of stay with that one.
1624
01:40:22.760 --> 01:40:25.800
And so rather than say, well, it's wrong, it's it's repulsive,
1625
01:40:25.840 --> 01:40:28.399
it so this or it's that, we simply say that, well,
1626
01:40:28.479 --> 01:40:31.640
fornication we do know about, and I can't and I'm
1627
01:40:31.640 --> 01:40:33.800
going to get into sacramental marriage in a minute, I
1628
01:40:33.920 --> 01:40:37.920
can't confer matrimony on a homosexual couple. That means that
1629
01:40:38.039 --> 01:40:40.880
any sexual activity they have together is going to be fornication.
1630
01:40:42.159 --> 01:40:46.000
So I can't have a fornicating priest. So that would
1631
01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:47.600
be a problem, that would be a conflict. But it's
1632
01:40:47.640 --> 01:40:50.560
assuming they have made a promise and there is no
1633
01:40:50.680 --> 01:40:55.159
promise of chastity. Oh sorry, there is no promise of celibacy. Rather,
1634
01:40:55.319 --> 01:40:59.279
in the nicolay in church, with a clergy, you can
1635
01:40:59.359 --> 01:41:02.039
have married praise, you can have married bishops. I'm one right,
1636
01:41:02.079 --> 01:41:06.359
I'm a married bishop. But we can't have a fornicating
1637
01:41:06.840 --> 01:41:09.319
of a clergy person that way. That would go against
1638
01:41:09.359 --> 01:41:17.560
the sacramental theology. Again, as far as matrimony goes. I've
1639
01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:19.319
talked about this so much. I don't think I need
1640
01:41:19.359 --> 01:41:23.079
to get into it tonight. Suffice it to say, matrimony
1641
01:41:23.159 --> 01:41:27.479
is about reproduction. If there's no reproduction, you can't really
1642
01:41:27.600 --> 01:41:34.600
have matrimony. So that precludes that we cannot confer, okay,
1643
01:41:34.760 --> 01:41:39.520
cannot confer the sacrament of matrimony on a homosexual couple
1644
01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:42.920
because of this. It's unfortunate. I know people are upset
1645
01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:45.039
about that, but there's nothing we can do about. Sacramental
1646
01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:47.640
theology cannot be changed on this. It is what it is,
1647
01:41:48.079 --> 01:41:49.520
all right. You just have to learn to live with it.
1648
01:41:49.560 --> 01:41:52.479
There's a lot of things about the church that even
1649
01:41:52.520 --> 01:41:55.680
I don't like, but I just learned to live with it, okay.
1650
01:41:55.720 --> 01:41:57.600
And this is one of those times. Sometimes there's things
1651
01:41:57.640 --> 01:42:00.640
that just go against what you personally he can accept.
1652
01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:04.840
I'm going to get into one of those shortly. The
1653
01:42:05.039 --> 01:42:06.880
Roman Catholic Church has a close communion. We have an
1654
01:42:06.920 --> 01:42:12.560
open communion, okay, which means is if you're baptized Christian,
1655
01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:18.760
you know legitimately baptized, and you understand that Catholics believe
1656
01:42:18.840 --> 01:42:21.359
and understand the eucharst to be the body and blood
1657
01:42:21.399 --> 01:42:23.560
soul in divinity of Jesus Christ, then you are welcome
1658
01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:28.079
to receive our communion, regardless of your denomination and regardless
1659
01:42:28.159 --> 01:42:29.840
of whether or not you choose to convert and consider
1660
01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:30.520
yourself Catholic.
1661
01:42:31.560 --> 01:42:32.159
We are.
1662
01:42:32.479 --> 01:42:35.840
We feel that Christ wouldn't have denied himself to anybody.
1663
01:42:36.399 --> 01:42:37.960
I'm not going to be the one that says, no,
1664
01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:41.359
you can't have them. That's just not my right. You know,
1665
01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:45.319
Jesus gave himself to prostitutes, tax collectors, everything else. Okay,
1666
01:42:46.039 --> 01:42:50.359
he died for everyone's sins, not just the Catholics, and
1667
01:42:50.439 --> 01:42:53.880
not just people that can understand about what these sacraments
1668
01:42:53.960 --> 01:42:57.760
mean completely. I give them a blue brief catechisis about it,
1669
01:42:57.840 --> 01:42:59.680
so they kind of understand. But I just let the
1670
01:42:59.720 --> 01:43:02.560
relationship grow with Jesus. Some people don't like that about
1671
01:43:02.600 --> 01:43:06.840
this church, too bad. That's what we do here. We've
1672
01:43:06.880 --> 01:43:08.840
talked so much about abortion. I'm not going to get
1673
01:43:08.840 --> 01:43:11.319
into that one again. Just to suffice it to say
1674
01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:16.479
where we are anti abortion. We take a general pro
1675
01:43:16.640 --> 01:43:21.039
life stance on what we'd like to see happen in
1676
01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:23.479
the world, but we don't get political about it, and
1677
01:43:23.600 --> 01:43:27.840
we don't try to change legislation. Okay. And if a
1678
01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:31.239
woman were to have an abortion and come to this church,
1679
01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:35.760
we wouldn't excommunicate her or even declare her excommunicated. We
1680
01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:40.279
would put her through you know, a pastoral care where
1681
01:43:40.479 --> 01:43:43.439
you know she would get whatever she would need. But
1682
01:43:43.560 --> 01:43:45.239
this is where she needs the church the most. The
1683
01:43:45.319 --> 01:43:47.880
last thing we need to do is kick her out. Okay.
1684
01:43:48.359 --> 01:43:52.000
So that's our stance. We don't believe in, we don't accept,
1685
01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:56.159
and we do not endorse the automatic excommunication that the
1686
01:43:56.239 --> 01:44:00.840
Church of Rome puts towards abortion. We other pastor them
1687
01:44:00.920 --> 01:44:04.359
than than than exclude them. This is going to be
1688
01:44:04.399 --> 01:44:06.239
a tough one for some of you, but I need
1689
01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:08.720
to talk about it because this is one that created
1690
01:44:08.720 --> 01:44:10.800
a lot of controversy in this church at the time
1691
01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:15.039
that it was being established as a tradition. And and
1692
01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:17.880
that is the issue of right to die in euthanasia.
1693
01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:22.880
So euthanasia. There's a difference between right to die in euthanasia, Okay.
1694
01:44:23.079 --> 01:44:29.920
Euthanasia is generally a doctor euthanizing someone for a multitude
1695
01:44:29.960 --> 01:44:33.399
of various reasons, where right to die is that a
1696
01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:39.159
person who is terminally ill can elect to uh end
1697
01:44:39.279 --> 01:44:45.239
their suffering by having a medically assisted I guess you
1698
01:44:45.279 --> 01:44:48.239
could call it suicidal, though I think that's a very
1699
01:44:48.359 --> 01:44:54.479
provocative term. That's not necessary. Here, a medically assisted you know,
1700
01:44:54.560 --> 01:44:56.520
you pull, you pull, you push the button, you get
1701
01:44:56.560 --> 01:44:59.319
injected with the chemicals. The doctor doesn't do anything except
1702
01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:04.600
make it safe for you. That's right to die this church. Now, Now,
1703
01:45:04.720 --> 01:45:07.720
of course, the Church of Rome states in the Catechism
1704
01:45:07.760 --> 01:45:11.199
intentional euth in asia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder.
1705
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:14.960
They just flat out call it murder. So it's gravely
1706
01:45:15.039 --> 01:45:17.680
contrary to the dignity of the human person and to
1707
01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:20.319
the respect due to the living God, his creator. Okay,
1708
01:45:21.239 --> 01:45:24.319
and rightfully so if you consider it murder, that would
1709
01:45:24.359 --> 01:45:28.239
be true. And we do consider euthanasia to be murder.
1710
01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:32.159
We do not, however, have a ruling on right to die,
1711
01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:37.560
with the exception of that you cannot be like, you know,
1712
01:45:37.680 --> 01:45:40.000
you're depressed and you just want to end it all. No,
1713
01:45:40.840 --> 01:45:44.479
if a person is declared by a medical professional to
1714
01:45:44.560 --> 01:45:50.319
be terminally ill, and in the course of their process,
1715
01:45:50.399 --> 01:45:54.640
if whatever they elect treatment or whatever, find that they
1716
01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:58.720
cannot take the pain and suffering of their illness anymore
1717
01:45:59.520 --> 01:46:04.800
and want it to be expeditiously ended, the inevitable conclusion anyway,
1718
01:46:05.640 --> 01:46:09.039
then if a person were to choose, assuming it's legal
1719
01:46:09.720 --> 01:46:14.760
and available, a right to die option, we are not
1720
01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:17.720
going to say you committed suicide, You're going to hell. Now,
1721
01:46:17.840 --> 01:46:20.319
that's not what this church is here to do. We're
1722
01:46:20.399 --> 01:46:24.079
going to be there for them and and and and
1723
01:46:24.239 --> 01:46:29.319
and and and give them prayers and no judgment. And
1724
01:46:29.600 --> 01:46:31.760
I know that can be hard on some people. But again,
1725
01:46:32.199 --> 01:46:34.640
the benefits of an esoteric church is that we see
1726
01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:37.960
the internal relationship, and we understand that everyone's going to
1727
01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:40.560
have a different relationship to death. And we know from
1728
01:46:40.600 --> 01:46:42.920
scripture that God is the God of the living as
1729
01:46:42.960 --> 01:46:45.159
well as the dead, all right, So whether we're dealing
1730
01:46:45.199 --> 01:46:47.720
with life or death, God is present, God is there,
1731
01:46:47.960 --> 01:46:51.159
God knows what to do. And yeah, there might be,
1732
01:46:51.279 --> 01:46:54.560
as Father Chris has said, some virtue and suffering, but
1733
01:46:55.039 --> 01:46:59.520
I can tell you from my own experience, just having
1734
01:46:59.680 --> 01:47:05.560
some very trivial things like versidas can inflict pain upon
1735
01:47:05.640 --> 01:47:09.640
the body that is beyond comprehension that I can understand
1736
01:47:09.720 --> 01:47:11.960
that if you are going through six or seven months
1737
01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:14.960
of this, you know, a gun to your head might
1738
01:47:15.039 --> 01:47:18.840
start looking pretty good. And I would rather see somebody
1739
01:47:19.319 --> 01:47:24.079
take a medically safe path towards that inevitable conclusion, assuming
1740
01:47:24.119 --> 01:47:26.920
they are terminally ill and not you know, just trying
1741
01:47:26.960 --> 01:47:29.079
to get out of it, get out of life because
1742
01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:32.079
they're not happy, but you know, truly terminally ill anyway,
1743
01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:34.760
going to die anyway. I would rather them do a
1744
01:47:34.920 --> 01:47:40.039
safe method that's going to reach the inevitable then for
1745
01:47:40.159 --> 01:47:42.800
them to blow their heads off and leave it to
1746
01:47:42.920 --> 01:47:45.159
their family to have to deal with the mess. Okay.
1747
01:47:46.239 --> 01:47:50.520
I think that's the more morally responsible option in my opinion.
1748
01:47:50.800 --> 01:47:53.039
So if a person is at that critical point where
1749
01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:55.399
they just can't take it anymore, I don't think it's
1750
01:47:55.800 --> 01:47:57.920
for the church to say, no, you can't do that.
1751
01:47:58.039 --> 01:48:03.680
That's suicide, that's murder, that's whatever. This church disagrees. But
1752
01:48:03.800 --> 01:48:05.560
we're not going to say that if you do hold
1753
01:48:05.760 --> 01:48:08.600
that that's murdered, that that's wrong either. We give you
1754
01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:12.239
the power to decide for yourself what's right for you
1755
01:48:12.399 --> 01:48:14.960
in your life. This is my libertarian side, I guess
1756
01:48:15.039 --> 01:48:17.560
coming through. But I fought hard for this one and
1757
01:48:17.960 --> 01:48:19.720
everyone else in the church was against it. I was
1758
01:48:19.760 --> 01:48:23.840
the only one that said no, youth in Asia, yeah,
1759
01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:26.800
throw that one out. But right to die, we need
1760
01:48:26.920 --> 01:48:32.119
to preserve the dignity of a person. And if Grandma can't,
1761
01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:35.000
isn't being treated with the same respect that you know,
1762
01:48:35.239 --> 01:48:39.479
Fluffy was. I think that there's something wrong there. And
1763
01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:41.439
it's like if you keep a dog or a cat
1764
01:48:41.520 --> 01:48:46.039
alive longer, then you know, oh it's cruel. But my god, Grandma,
1765
01:48:46.119 --> 01:48:47.399
she's gonna have to stick it out to the very
1766
01:48:47.439 --> 01:48:50.880
freaking end. And maybe she can. Maybe Grandma can't. And
1767
01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:55.279
if she can't, great do it. If you can't, then
1768
01:48:55.800 --> 01:48:59.079
I would rather you make the best choice for you
1769
01:48:59.159 --> 01:49:01.600
without the having to go into that with oh I'm
1770
01:49:01.640 --> 01:49:04.000
going to hell now. I just don't see the value
1771
01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:07.079
in that. Okay. So this church doesn't put a judgment
1772
01:49:07.199 --> 01:49:09.199
on that one, all right, And that's the non judgmental,
1773
01:49:09.239 --> 01:49:11.840
non dogmatic aspect of the church. Again, one of the
1774
01:49:11.880 --> 01:49:17.520
benefits of esoteric Christianity. Okay. Birth control was another one.
1775
01:49:18.479 --> 01:49:20.479
Where do we stand on birth control? Well, the Church,
1776
01:49:20.560 --> 01:49:22.520
as you know, the Church of Rome, is against it,
1777
01:49:23.159 --> 01:49:30.560
all right. We feel though that that the person's personal
1778
01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:33.800
responsibility is paramount, particularly when it comes to their sexual activity,
1779
01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:35.840
which we as the church don't want anything to do with.
1780
01:49:36.319 --> 01:49:38.199
I don't want to be in your bedroom all right.
1781
01:49:38.319 --> 01:49:41.000
I am not your father confessor looking over every single
1782
01:49:41.079 --> 01:49:43.119
sexual actor you do and say, oh, that's not okay,
1783
01:49:43.720 --> 01:49:46.000
that's okay, but you can't do this one now. I'm
1784
01:49:46.039 --> 01:49:47.640
not gonna do that. Okay. If you want to do
1785
01:49:47.800 --> 01:49:49.840
some crazy stuff in that bedroom, that's up to you.
1786
01:49:50.359 --> 01:49:52.039
I'm not gonna say it's wrong. I'm not gonna say
1787
01:49:52.079 --> 01:49:55.079
it's right. All right. That's between you and your lover
1788
01:49:55.199 --> 01:49:57.199
and maybe God. I mean, you know, I'm not sure
1789
01:49:57.279 --> 01:49:59.880
even he cares, all right. But the point is, I'm
1790
01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:02.640
not going to use the church as a tool towards
1791
01:50:03.840 --> 01:50:06.520
getting involved in decisions you make in this regard. And
1792
01:50:06.600 --> 01:50:11.039
there are sometimes financial reasons or other reasons why a
1793
01:50:11.199 --> 01:50:15.560
person might not advantageously be able to get pregnant at
1794
01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:17.720
that particular time. As long as you're open to it
1795
01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:20.439
through the course of your marriage, then I think it's fine.
1796
01:50:20.760 --> 01:50:22.920
If you're using abortion, I mean, I'm sorry, birth control
1797
01:50:23.000 --> 01:50:25.920
throat your entire magic, that's problematic. But if you're if
1798
01:50:25.920 --> 01:50:28.439
you're saying not right now, but later, that's I don't
1799
01:50:28.479 --> 01:50:30.159
see anything wrong with that. I know a lot of
1800
01:50:30.279 --> 01:50:33.159
Roman Catholic priests that teach the same thing privately. I
1801
01:50:33.159 --> 01:50:35.279
don't do it publicly so much. But they do agree
1802
01:50:35.319 --> 01:50:39.359
with me on this one. So I don't endorse or
1803
01:50:39.479 --> 01:50:42.880
condemn the use of contraceptions. I just say personal responsibility.
1804
01:50:42.880 --> 01:50:43.840
And I think it's a hell of a lot better
1805
01:50:43.880 --> 01:50:48.359
than abortion, all right. Masturbation is another one. Nothing is
1806
01:50:48.520 --> 01:50:52.079
worse than when you get a you know, young, you know, teenager,
1807
01:50:52.640 --> 01:50:55.720
you know, maybe twelve or thirteen, coming into your confessional
1808
01:50:56.000 --> 01:51:01.880
and tears rolling and saying, you know, I've I've masturbated
1809
01:51:02.079 --> 01:51:05.119
or whatever. And I mean, I've heard this so much
1810
01:51:05.199 --> 01:51:09.039
throughout my life, all throughout my pastoral care. It's a
1811
01:51:09.119 --> 01:51:12.800
common thing that I hear all the time. And I've
1812
01:51:12.880 --> 01:51:15.840
known confessors that, oh, you're you're mortal sin. You got
1813
01:51:15.960 --> 01:51:17.439
to go, you know, we gotta we gotta absolve you
1814
01:51:17.520 --> 01:51:20.359
of this and you can never do it again again.
1815
01:51:20.920 --> 01:51:25.520
All right. You know, most people have figured this out
1816
01:51:25.560 --> 01:51:29.960
by the age of four or five. It's something everyone's done.
1817
01:51:30.399 --> 01:51:31.840
Even if you don't want to admit to it. I
1818
01:51:31.920 --> 01:51:34.720
guarantee you in some capacity you've figured it out at
1819
01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:37.039
some point in your life. Because you know what, there's
1820
01:51:37.079 --> 01:51:39.680
something called it's natural. And this is not something that
1821
01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:44.039
is necessarily harmful unless it starts turning into some kind
1822
01:51:44.119 --> 01:51:48.760
of distortion where now they don't know how to have
1823
01:51:49.159 --> 01:51:53.239
proper relationships with the opposite sex, or you know, maybe
1824
01:51:53.560 --> 01:51:56.760
it leads to some kind of pornography addiction. That's another matter.
1825
01:51:57.399 --> 01:51:59.760
I'm not saying that that's okay, But when I am
1826
01:51:59.800 --> 01:52:05.399
saying saying is it's very unhealthy too to not engage
1827
01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:10.880
sexually because you can have medical problems over time if you,
1828
01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:14.279
if you, if you withhold for so long, I'm particularly mad.
1829
01:52:14.319 --> 01:52:16.960
And that's I mean women too, But it's more important
1830
01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:20.840
for for men honestly, uh, because uh, there can be
1831
01:52:20.920 --> 01:52:23.439
blockages and other kinds of things that happen. Although the
1832
01:52:23.520 --> 01:52:25.359
church will say, oh, well the nocturnal emissions, take care,
1833
01:52:25.439 --> 01:52:29.399
that not always, not always, you know. And so again
1834
01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:33.399
this is biological. This is scientific. It is not moral
1835
01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:36.079
unless it turns into like, well you, like I said,
1836
01:52:36.159 --> 01:52:38.680
you know, you're you're you're you're getting an unhealthy relationship
1837
01:52:38.720 --> 01:52:41.239
with pornography and you're not relating to your spouse anymore.
1838
01:52:41.319 --> 01:52:44.439
That's a different matter. So we don't have a statement
1839
01:52:44.520 --> 01:52:46.920
on that one. And except to be like it's natural
1840
01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:50.119
and just move on with your life, okay, you know,
1841
01:52:50.199 --> 01:52:52.479
if you want absolution, I'll give you what absolution you
1842
01:52:52.600 --> 01:52:54.640
might need. But uh, you know, I'm not going to
1843
01:52:54.720 --> 01:52:56.439
go around telling people that go into health for this
1844
01:52:57.800 --> 01:53:02.560
extramarital relationships among the laits. You know, pornication is a problem.
1845
01:53:02.760 --> 01:53:04.720
It's a problem in the Church of Rome, it's a
1846
01:53:04.760 --> 01:53:06.920
problem in the nicolay In Church. No difference really there
1847
01:53:09.159 --> 01:53:13.239
extra ecclesium nalasullus. That means that there's no salvation outside
1848
01:53:13.279 --> 01:53:15.600
the Catholic Church. We actually kind of agree with that
1849
01:53:15.800 --> 01:53:18.520
to the degree that we believe that the love and
1850
01:53:18.640 --> 01:53:20.800
grace of God is present in all religions, and so
1851
01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:23.720
therefore the Catholic Church is all of us, whether we
1852
01:53:23.960 --> 01:53:27.359
are officially Catholic or not, and so therefore we feel
1853
01:53:27.560 --> 01:53:29.600
just as the Church says. We talked about this last week,
1854
01:53:29.720 --> 01:53:32.800
you know that there is so you know, anybody outside
1855
01:53:32.920 --> 01:53:38.279
of in any religion can receive salvation through the truth
1856
01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:43.479
of their own religion, albeit imperfectly. Let me close out
1857
01:53:43.520 --> 01:53:46.720
here with our storiology. I don't want to get into
1858
01:53:48.239 --> 01:53:51.560
I mean, there's more things here. Female clergy. We don't
1859
01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:55.640
really have female clergy except for the deaconess, but it's
1860
01:53:55.680 --> 01:53:59.000
not holy orders. We do not confer holy orders on females,
1861
01:53:59.039 --> 01:54:02.000
but we do have the mind orders, and that includes
1862
01:54:02.039 --> 01:54:05.479
also the deaconus. So it's not the same as a deacon.
1863
01:54:05.720 --> 01:54:09.359
It's not a sacramental office, but it is a ministerial
1864
01:54:09.399 --> 01:54:12.119
office that a woman in our church can hold. I
1865
01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:14.720
just want to mention that our sotoriology, though, and I
1866
01:54:14.800 --> 01:54:17.479
mentioned this earlier, people could get a little bit upset
1867
01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:21.199
about this, is that remember how Protestants have sola feeda right.
1868
01:54:21.239 --> 01:54:23.680
They say, oh, you just need faith alone. It's just
1869
01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.760
faith in Jesus. I believe that Jesus and my Lord
1870
01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:28.560
and say you die from my sins. That's it. That's
1871
01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:30.520
what Protestants will teach a lot of them, not all
1872
01:54:30.520 --> 01:54:32.880
of them, but a lot of them do. Evangelicals will
1873
01:54:32.880 --> 01:54:37.119
definitely teach this. The Catholic and Orthodox churches expand on
1874
01:54:37.199 --> 01:54:39.880
this and say, no, it's not just faith, you need works.
1875
01:54:39.960 --> 01:54:42.720
Saint James makes it clear. So you have faith, which
1876
01:54:42.720 --> 01:54:44.960
is pistus in Greek. You have works with it, which
1877
01:54:45.039 --> 01:54:50.079
is erga okay, and then you have you know the
1878
01:54:50.159 --> 01:54:54.600
relationship between the two, which is that through faith you
1879
01:54:54.800 --> 01:54:58.279
then come to understand your obligation to the church, and
1880
01:54:58.439 --> 01:55:01.680
that there is a work that needs to be done
1881
01:55:01.760 --> 01:55:04.800
that Jesus talks about. By their fruits, you shall know them.
1882
01:55:05.279 --> 01:55:07.520
And this is why Saint James says that faith without
1883
01:55:07.560 --> 01:55:11.039
works is dead. So therefore Orthodox and Catholics teach that
1884
01:55:11.119 --> 01:55:15.439
to attain salvation you need. Faith is the door through
1885
01:55:15.920 --> 01:55:18.760
which you eventually come to the maturity of Christianity through
1886
01:55:18.800 --> 01:55:21.680
your works. But you need to actually do good things.
1887
01:55:22.560 --> 01:55:24.520
You need to actually live the life of Christ in
1888
01:55:24.720 --> 01:55:28.680
order to actually justify the fact that you really do
1889
01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:31.520
have the faith that you claim that you have. So ultimately, yeah,
1890
01:55:31.520 --> 01:55:34.479
it's true that you can't earn it. You can't earn salvation.
1891
01:55:34.520 --> 01:55:36.359
It's not like you can work your way through salvation.
1892
01:55:37.079 --> 01:55:38.760
You have to have the faith. It's the only way
1893
01:55:38.760 --> 01:55:41.720
to get the grace. But unless you actually use the faith,
1894
01:55:43.399 --> 01:55:47.359
then you don't get the salvation. We take it one
1895
01:55:47.399 --> 01:55:51.039
step further, we say you also need epgnosis, which is
1896
01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:55.560
the fitting upon of the specific kind of knowledge that
1897
01:55:55.720 --> 01:56:00.319
can only come through an experiential relationship with Christ. And
1898
01:56:00.399 --> 01:56:02.680
you might say, well, Bishop, does that mean that I
1899
01:56:02.840 --> 01:56:06.239
need to understand Jesus to go to Heaven. Not really,
1900
01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:11.399
what it means is you can understand intellectually that Jesus
1901
01:56:11.560 --> 01:56:13.880
died for your sins on the cross. You can understand that.
1902
01:56:14.840 --> 01:56:19.199
Anybody can. The devil understands that. So does that make
1903
01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:21.279
him a Christian? Does that mean he's saved now because
1904
01:56:21.319 --> 01:56:24.600
he gets it he believes that Jesus died for everyone's sins. No,
1905
01:56:25.239 --> 01:56:28.319
that does not mean that. What it means is you
1906
01:56:28.399 --> 01:56:32.079
can intellectually understand something but not know it. Same thing
1907
01:56:32.159 --> 01:56:33.840
goes with the works. You can be like, I understand
1908
01:56:33.840 --> 01:56:35.279
that Jesus died for my sins. He wants me to
1909
01:56:35.399 --> 01:56:37.359
be a good person. I can get behind the urga,
1910
01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.600
I can do the works. I'll go ahead and do
1911
01:56:40.800 --> 01:56:44.199
the works. But if you don't actually have the relationship
1912
01:56:44.239 --> 01:56:48.680
with Jesus, then guess what works without epignosis is dead
1913
01:56:50.199 --> 01:56:53.000
because you have to experience God. You have to have
1914
01:56:53.159 --> 01:56:58.680
the relationship with Him to truly enter into the perfection
1915
01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:04.399
of the Kingdom. Now, you might say, but why doesn't
1916
01:57:04.399 --> 01:57:06.640
the Catholic Church teach this? If it's true, it does
1917
01:57:06.840 --> 01:57:10.119
teach this, it just doesn't go into it with that understanding.
1918
01:57:11.119 --> 01:57:13.560
We're not really teaching anything different because all of this,
1919
01:57:13.840 --> 01:57:18.359
this experiential aspect of how God comes to us through
1920
01:57:18.479 --> 01:57:21.079
this knowing that happens when we participate in the life
1921
01:57:21.119 --> 01:57:24.319
of the church. It's automatic. So the church doesn't really
1922
01:57:24.359 --> 01:57:26.760
feel it needs to be discussed because it's like it's automatic.
1923
01:57:26.840 --> 01:57:28.479
If you have the faith and you do the work,
1924
01:57:28.600 --> 01:57:32.159
you're going to automatically get the hypignosis. But the problem
1925
01:57:32.319 --> 01:57:36.039
is in the field. I've met one too many Christians
1926
01:57:36.680 --> 01:57:41.119
that did the faith, did the works, didn't understand shit
1927
01:57:42.000 --> 01:57:47.359
all right. And so that's because they're not living. They're
1928
01:57:47.399 --> 01:57:50.319
not actually participating in the life of the church. They're
1929
01:57:50.399 --> 01:57:55.239
just doing the rote memorizations, but they're not actually living
1930
01:57:55.319 --> 01:57:56.760
the life, and they don't know how to feel it.
1931
01:57:57.359 --> 01:58:02.000
And so our church is about feeling it. My gosh,
1932
01:58:02.039 --> 01:58:04.960
I did go over the twenty minutes. I tried. I
1933
01:58:05.640 --> 01:58:08.399
did the whole segment. I'm sorry, But we'll have a
1934
01:58:08.439 --> 01:58:12.039
whole hour now to digest all of this. So we're
1935
01:58:12.039 --> 01:58:15.920
gonna we're gonna take our next break and when we
1936
01:58:16.000 --> 01:58:20.159
come back April and Father Chris will join us again
1937
01:58:20.239 --> 01:58:23.279
on the pianel, Jamie and myself and we're gonna talk
1938
01:58:23.359 --> 01:58:25.920
about this. What do you guys think? Tell us when
1939
01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:26.359
we come back.
1940
01:59:14.880 --> 02:01:34.039
Any Na Section siation stage at page pass stations, satisitional
1941
02:01:34.399 --> 02:01:44.520
fbitional fancial infecial station deitionitional facial defational solution the idea
1942
02:01:44.640 --> 02:01:54.920
of fitial focal potion scalational social stational scalptional scial scial
1943
02:01:55.279 --> 02:01:58.039
facial facial station.
1944
02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:44.000
Did.
1945
02:03:34.960 --> 02:03:44.119
I watched the evening crawl across your face. Colors fad
1946
02:03:44.800 --> 02:03:47.119
and something I can.
1947
02:03:52.159 --> 02:03:57.880
We used to talk about thousand different futures.
1948
02:03:59.279 --> 02:04:00.960
Now I'm daring.
1949
02:04:00.720 --> 02:04:10.800
Down the one that finally came. You asked me softly
1950
02:04:11.439 --> 02:04:18.279
if the road would stove from them, all the footsteps
1951
02:04:19.000 --> 02:04:27.159
that we carved into its spine. I held my breath,
1952
02:04:27.800 --> 02:04:33.960
but I never got to answer, because the truth was.
1953
02:04:35.680 --> 02:04:37.560
Just too heavy to define.
1954
02:04:40.800 --> 02:04:43.920
There's a store, some.
1955
02:04:44.239 --> 02:04:46.239
May maser folds.
1956
02:04:49.159 --> 02:04:51.239
And the last tier there.
1957
02:04:52.079 --> 02:05:02.079
Somebody asked, should there's peace that feels look like letting go?
1958
02:05:05.479 --> 02:05:07.079
And I swear.
1959
02:05:08.600 --> 02:05:12.760
I never wanted you to know, But.
1960
02:05:12.920 --> 02:05:18.479
I chose it anyway. God, I choose you anyway.
1961
02:05:23.359 --> 02:05:31.560
The morning came without a hint of consolation, just the
1962
02:05:31.760 --> 02:05:40.359
quiet of a better with thor he cheated. I heard
1963
02:05:40.520 --> 02:05:41.880
your laughter.
1964
02:05:41.880 --> 02:05:49.720
Bleading through the conversation over agost I never forgot the
1965
02:05:50.000 --> 02:05:50.880
chance to me.
1966
02:05:55.720 --> 02:05:58.800
There was in the Troy.
1967
02:05:59.560 --> 02:06:00.720
Must several men.
1968
02:06:03.800 --> 02:06:16.760
Everywhere is tiny monumentories, happy, sweared by things you never mentioned,
1969
02:06:18.840 --> 02:06:21.560
and I felt every.
1970
02:06:21.680 --> 02:06:23.439
Silence on my face.
1971
02:06:27.000 --> 02:06:29.399
There's a last store.
1972
02:06:29.359 --> 02:06:37.000
That somebody has to close, and the last see.
1973
02:06:37.079 --> 02:06:40.039
That somebody asked to show.
1974
02:06:43.000 --> 02:06:44.560
There's a peace that.
1975
02:06:44.840 --> 02:06:47.880
Bears a lot like letting go.
1976
02:06:51.119 --> 02:06:51.760
And died.
1977
02:06:52.119 --> 02:06:59.000
Swear I never wanted you to know, but I chose
1978
02:06:59.079 --> 02:06:59.720
you anyway.
1979
02:07:02.319 --> 02:07:03.399
What I choose it.
1980
02:07:07.359 --> 02:07:11.479
Maybe mercy isn't gensel. Maybe mercy leaves a stay and
1981
02:07:11.800 --> 02:07:15.279
be loving. Someone deeply leads you carry all their face.
1982
02:07:15.479 --> 02:07:18.600
I keep seeing all the futures that we ever in
1983
02:07:18.800 --> 02:07:21.680
the spring. How hardest part of loving.
1984
02:07:21.600 --> 02:07:23.079
Is the ending of it.
1985
02:07:27.479 --> 02:07:31.920
There's a story that somebody.
1986
02:07:31.520 --> 02:07:39.800
Has to move, and the last bres somebody has.
1987
02:07:43.399 --> 02:07:51.840
Oh, there's a quiet that feels corner and so, and
1988
02:07:52.079 --> 02:07:53.319
I swear.
1989
02:07:54.840 --> 02:07:59.760
I never wanted you to know, but I choose it
1990
02:07:59.840 --> 02:08:00.560
a way.
1991
02:08:03.039 --> 02:08:04.359
Ass anyway.
1992
02:08:07.960 --> 02:08:12.840
If forgiveness has a voice, I hope it sings.
1993
02:08:16.199 --> 02:08:18.800
And if Heaven has.
1994
02:08:18.720 --> 02:08:22.359
A lie, I hope it brings.
1995
02:08:24.399 --> 02:08:32.399
Something warm for you, because I'm.
1996
02:08:32.399 --> 02:08:34.039
Still walking through.
1997
02:08:38.800 --> 02:08:42.119
Every shadow of the things I couldn't say.
1998
02:09:37.079 --> 02:10:29.600
Boot Welcome back everyone to the third and final hour
1999
02:10:29.760 --> 02:10:33.880
of Vestiges After Dark. This season, it's been a great season,
2000
02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:39.560
and hopefully you've enjoyed today's presentation on esoteric Christianity and practice.
2001
02:10:40.159 --> 02:10:42.199
I mean I could have done one unjust the theology,
2002
02:10:42.239 --> 02:10:43.600
but I thought you'd get more out of it by
2003
02:10:43.720 --> 02:10:47.720
understanding how a church like ours actually applies it and
2004
02:10:48.159 --> 02:10:50.159
give you some kind of understanding as to the you know,
2005
02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:55.600
the very nature of you know, the internal Christ. You know,
2006
02:10:55.720 --> 02:10:59.359
how we find Christ inside us because He is there
2007
02:11:00.079 --> 02:11:02.880
outside of two of course, but there's a transcendent aspect
2008
02:11:02.920 --> 02:11:09.239
as well as an internal one. So you know, I
2009
02:11:09.319 --> 02:11:13.039
think need to always keep that in mind as we
2010
02:11:13.239 --> 02:11:17.600
approach any Christianity, whichever denomination you practice. You know, we're
2011
02:11:17.640 --> 02:11:20.000
not that different from the Church of Rome. They really aren't.
2012
02:11:20.560 --> 02:11:23.199
Hopefully this show help you to understand that when we
2013
02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:26.199
come back, your questions and discussion from the Camel don't
2014
02:11:26.239 --> 02:13:00.800
go away. Calling in from the five of five area
2015
02:13:00.920 --> 02:13:04.840
code in north western New Mexico. Hello, you're on the
2016
02:13:04.920 --> 02:13:06.439
air with Vestiges after Dark.
2017
02:13:08.399 --> 02:13:08.800
Bishop.
2018
02:13:08.880 --> 02:13:11.079
This is Vell. Hey, Well how does it go. It's
2019
02:13:11.079 --> 02:13:14.079
always good to hear from you. She's She's Moosh everyone
2020
02:13:14.279 --> 02:13:18.439
in the chat. One of our fantastic moderators and very
2021
02:13:18.520 --> 02:13:21.680
much an appreciated part of our church. Oh, thank you
2022
02:13:21.760 --> 02:13:23.760
for calling in. What's your what's your question or comment?
2023
02:13:25.239 --> 02:13:28.960
Well, okay, now you know I'm Eastern Orthodox, Yes, but
2024
02:13:29.079 --> 02:13:32.439
I love Holy Nicole and Church because I feel at
2025
02:13:32.479 --> 02:13:37.319
home there. It's that blend that you offer and I
2026
02:13:37.520 --> 02:13:42.680
feel so comfortable there. But I noticed differences between the
2027
02:13:42.760 --> 02:13:46.199
Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox that I'm not quite clear on.
2028
02:13:47.159 --> 02:13:50.000
And one of those is a topic I discussed with Paula,
2029
02:13:50.239 --> 02:13:53.760
and that's regarding the Rosary. I didn't grow up with
2030
02:13:53.840 --> 02:13:57.600
the Rosary, and I don't quite understand it. But I
2031
02:13:57.760 --> 02:14:00.800
noticed that you had said was really benefit, but I
2032
02:14:00.880 --> 02:14:03.399
don't understand if it's something I should learn. And the
2033
02:14:03.560 --> 02:14:09.359
other question would be that the cross is made different.
2034
02:14:10.760 --> 02:14:13.239
We hold our fingers in a certain position. That's what
2035
02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:16.680
I was taught, and I noticed that most Catholics do
2036
02:14:16.800 --> 02:14:19.000
at the opposite, and they do it in a really
2037
02:14:19.159 --> 02:14:22.640
lax way, like they just kind of their hands kind
2038
02:14:22.680 --> 02:14:25.920
of tap their head or something. And I don't understand
2039
02:14:26.399 --> 02:14:29.600
when did this happen? I mean, if we were one
2040
02:14:29.760 --> 02:14:32.680
at one time before the split, how did this happen?
2041
02:14:33.319 --> 02:14:35.439
Yeah, that's an interesting Let's get to that one first,
2042
02:14:35.479 --> 02:14:39.159
because it's a somewhat easier one to answer. It goes
2043
02:14:39.279 --> 02:14:42.319
back to very early I'd say the first.
2044
02:14:44.279 --> 02:14:44.760
The change.
2045
02:14:44.840 --> 02:14:48.680
It's really hard to pinpoint it. It's somewhere though, around
2046
02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:54.000
four or five hundred where there were marked differences between
2047
02:14:54.520 --> 02:14:57.359
how one crosses in the western part of the Empire
2048
02:14:57.479 --> 02:15:01.560
versus the east. The crossing to the right is older.
2049
02:15:02.239 --> 02:15:05.479
It's actually older. To the right hand of God is
2050
02:15:05.560 --> 02:15:07.399
how it was done. And as you said that you
2051
02:15:07.520 --> 02:15:09.800
hold the fingers differently so in the east, and this
2052
02:15:09.960 --> 02:15:11.680
is what we do in the Nicoleyan Church. We cross
2053
02:15:11.760 --> 02:15:15.479
to the right. We have the you put the three
2054
02:15:15.560 --> 02:15:17.720
fingers together at the top and then the two fingers
2055
02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:20.640
internal which means the Father's Son in Holy Spirit, which
2056
02:15:20.680 --> 02:15:23.199
is the three and then the two fingers internal is
2057
02:15:23.319 --> 02:15:26.640
the two natures of Christ, fully Man and fully God.
2058
02:15:27.079 --> 02:15:29.560
And then it's Father's Son Holy Spirit to the right
2059
02:15:29.600 --> 02:15:32.079
shoulder and then across to the left. In the in
2060
02:15:32.159 --> 02:15:35.279
the West, it's usually an open hand, you know, and
2061
02:15:35.359 --> 02:15:37.960
then they cross to the left first and then to
2062
02:15:38.079 --> 02:15:41.199
the right. Both are valid. There's not one that's an
2063
02:15:41.359 --> 02:15:45.560
invalid way of doing it. It definitely could seem lax
2064
02:15:45.640 --> 02:15:49.840
in the sense that it doesn't have the same theological symbology,
2065
02:15:49.920 --> 02:15:53.000
but that just is power for the cross. I almost
2066
02:15:53.039 --> 02:15:56.520
say power for the cross, power for the cau. The
2067
02:15:56.640 --> 02:16:02.680
course with with with Orthodoxy, because everything in Orthodoxy has
2068
02:16:03.159 --> 02:16:07.479
layer upon layer of symbolic meaning, whereas in the East,
2069
02:16:08.119 --> 02:16:11.960
being a more legalistic approach to the religion, I think
2070
02:16:12.319 --> 02:16:15.800
kind of simplifies those aspects. They get really complex when
2071
02:16:15.800 --> 02:16:20.479
it comes to explanations, but they get more I guess
2072
02:16:20.520 --> 02:16:22.199
you could say, just a little bit more relaxed than
2073
02:16:22.239 --> 02:16:24.600
every other aspect of it. Which is why you know,
2074
02:16:24.760 --> 02:16:28.000
some Orthodox people can go to a Roman Catholic Mass
2075
02:16:28.439 --> 02:16:31.239
and depending upon the parish that they go to, might
2076
02:16:31.359 --> 02:16:34.079
be have a less than stellar experience there because it
2077
02:16:34.159 --> 02:16:39.399
might seem not as people aren't as into it as much.
2078
02:16:39.559 --> 02:16:43.799
It might feel a little bits shallow and maybe a
2079
02:16:43.840 --> 02:16:48.479
little transparent in places that the rich mystical tradition of
2080
02:16:48.639 --> 02:16:52.879
Orthodoxy maintains very well. And so that's the difference. And
2081
02:16:53.000 --> 02:16:55.479
because the nicol And Church is actually a blend between
2082
02:16:55.879 --> 02:16:59.600
East and West, we of course use an econostosis. Are
2083
02:17:00.360 --> 02:17:06.239
our altar is cubicle in shape, it's not a rectangular, uh.
2084
02:17:06.680 --> 02:17:12.440
We face away from the the congregation. The Roman Church
2085
02:17:12.600 --> 02:17:16.799
turned it around. Uh, you know, there's there's elements with Obviously,
2086
02:17:16.879 --> 02:17:19.799
our sensor is an Eastern censor that we use the
2087
02:17:19.879 --> 02:17:22.360
bells and during you know, when it's not lent, that
2088
02:17:22.520 --> 02:17:25.120
kind of thing. So that's that's what it is. But
2089
02:17:25.280 --> 02:17:27.840
both are valid ways of doing the Sign of the Cross.
2090
02:17:27.920 --> 02:17:29.159
It's not as though they're getting less.
2091
02:17:29.200 --> 02:17:34.920
If you've actually described where esoteric and exoteric intersect.
2092
02:17:35.120 --> 02:17:36.920
Oh, here we go. Okay, let's see, let's tie it
2093
02:17:37.000 --> 02:17:39.680
into the subject. That's great. Yeah, let's do it well.
2094
02:17:39.959 --> 02:17:43.719
Because you know, the esoteric or the or the inner
2095
02:17:44.600 --> 02:17:46.280
in making the sign of the cross, the you know,
2096
02:17:46.399 --> 02:17:50.360
the the inner contemplative tradition is in both.
2097
02:17:50.399 --> 02:17:51.799
It doesn't matter east or west.
2098
02:17:52.079 --> 02:17:56.079
The concept is saying, I'm I'm entering into an inner
2099
02:17:56.159 --> 02:18:01.280
focus on on Jesus Christ, on the Holy and on
2100
02:18:01.360 --> 02:18:05.760
the Holy Trinity. So that's the that's the esoteric action.
2101
02:18:06.399 --> 02:18:10.440
The exoteric action is the is the is physically making
2102
02:18:10.479 --> 02:18:14.040
the sign. Now, if either church and by the way,
2103
02:18:14.120 --> 02:18:17.239
they don't, if either church said, oh, if you cross
2104
02:18:17.319 --> 02:18:19.360
that way or and not that way, then you know,
2105
02:18:21.440 --> 02:18:23.840
dogmatically you're outside of the church and you're going to hell.
2106
02:18:25.120 --> 02:18:28.520
That that would and they don't do that.
2107
02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:31.120
The church won't do that, but the coggregants will. Because
2108
02:18:31.159 --> 02:18:34.239
when I was well, we were on ghost adventures and
2109
02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:36.040
they saw me cross into the right. They said, see,
2110
02:18:36.040 --> 02:18:37.959
he's not even a real bishop. He doesn't even know
2111
02:18:38.040 --> 02:18:40.520
how to cross correctly. I mean, you wouldn't believe how
2112
02:18:40.559 --> 02:18:41.600
many people said.
2113
02:18:41.399 --> 02:18:44.760
That to me, thinking upside down and crosses the sign
2114
02:18:44.799 --> 02:18:50.079
of the instead of so. But you've got this, this
2115
02:18:50.360 --> 02:18:51.600
this interaction, you know.
2116
02:18:52.000 --> 02:18:55.799
And now if we were ever saying that that work
2117
02:18:56.159 --> 02:18:58.479
saved you or didn't save you, then we'd be in
2118
02:18:58.600 --> 02:19:00.920
complete agreement with the evange locals work.
2119
02:19:01.079 --> 02:19:02.319
That work will not save you.
2120
02:19:02.319 --> 02:19:04.079
If you cross yourself to the left or the right,
2121
02:19:04.399 --> 02:19:06.440
it neither saves you nor condemned you. In fact, if
2122
02:19:06.479 --> 02:19:07.920
you don't make the sign of the cross at all,
2123
02:19:08.239 --> 02:19:11.680
it would make no difference to your salvation. You know,
2124
02:19:11.959 --> 02:19:15.719
the the I'm with you the Eastern way of crossing yourself.
2125
02:19:16.600 --> 02:19:18.760
You know, I've kind of because I was with the
2126
02:19:18.799 --> 02:19:23.719
Eastern Church for a long time as well. If I'm
2127
02:19:23.760 --> 02:19:26.600
in a Western church after, you know, just by convention,
2128
02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:29.239
you know, I want to No one cares, but you know,
2129
02:19:29.440 --> 02:19:30.799
I want to do what other people are doing.
2130
02:19:30.879 --> 02:19:31.120
Sort of.
2131
02:19:31.239 --> 02:19:33.799
I'm not there. People don't think I'm making a spectacle
2132
02:19:33.840 --> 02:19:34.799
of myself, you know.
2133
02:19:34.959 --> 02:19:39.840
But it does make more sense the Eastern Way because
2134
02:19:39.840 --> 02:19:44.959
it also it mirrors the blessing that bishop gives to
2135
02:19:45.000 --> 02:19:48.200
the congregations, to the ideas that hands follow them the
2136
02:19:48.319 --> 02:19:51.799
direction of the of the blessing priest or bishop. So,
2137
02:19:52.600 --> 02:19:55.520
but you're right, the answer is, no one knows why
2138
02:19:56.719 --> 02:19:57.639
it swaps over there.
2139
02:19:57.639 --> 02:20:00.280
I think it's regional. I think it's just regional. Abbit
2140
02:20:00.959 --> 02:20:01.520
thinks so too.
2141
02:20:01.799 --> 02:20:03.879
I think I think in the British Aisles they were
2142
02:20:03.879 --> 02:20:07.200
crossing themselves what we now call the Eastern Way for
2143
02:20:07.280 --> 02:20:10.479
a lot longer. I think that probably persisted until after
2144
02:20:10.559 --> 02:20:15.399
ten sixty six. So but yeah, the answer is it's
2145
02:20:15.399 --> 02:20:20.600
a convention. And if you walked into a into a
2146
02:20:20.639 --> 02:20:22.639
Western church and didn't make the sign of the cross,
2147
02:20:23.079 --> 02:20:26.799
likely no one had noticed. But because when you enter
2148
02:20:26.840 --> 02:20:29.239
an Eastern church, either by the door or in the center,
2149
02:20:29.319 --> 02:20:32.600
there's an icon that you're you know that the norm
2150
02:20:32.719 --> 02:20:34.520
is to go and venerate the icon, and therefore you
2151
02:20:34.600 --> 02:20:37.719
make the sign of the cross three times, and.
2152
02:20:37.760 --> 02:20:41.920
Then it's much more likely to be noticed.
2153
02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:45.360
But of course both churches would say if the priest
2154
02:20:45.399 --> 02:20:50.000
of bishop would say, you're not there to be inspecting
2155
02:20:50.159 --> 02:20:52.440
the piety or religious.
2156
02:20:52.000 --> 02:20:55.760
Observance of the people in the congregation. You're there to
2157
02:20:55.879 --> 02:20:58.079
work out your own salvation imferi in trembling.
2158
02:20:58.479 --> 02:21:01.079
Yeah, I like that. And to the second part. The
2159
02:21:01.200 --> 02:21:03.000
first part of your question, I guess you could say
2160
02:21:03.559 --> 02:21:06.120
was about the Rosary. Yeah, it's just not something that
2161
02:21:06.520 --> 02:21:13.280
is practiced in Eastern Orthodoxyn't. No, it really it's not
2162
02:21:13.440 --> 02:21:15.799
a requirement at all. It's a it's a it's a
2163
02:21:15.920 --> 02:21:19.680
tradition that is really mostly a private tradition, although there
2164
02:21:19.719 --> 02:21:21.719
are churches that will sometimes do it after the Mass,
2165
02:21:21.799 --> 02:21:26.040
but it is actually forbidden to during It's forbidden to
2166
02:21:26.079 --> 02:21:28.079
do during the Mass, and I kind of agree that
2167
02:21:28.159 --> 02:21:30.600
it kind of distracts from it. It is a personal
2168
02:21:30.680 --> 02:21:33.959
observation that you can do. Orthodoxy has their own version
2169
02:21:34.000 --> 02:21:36.319
of it, which is the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ,
2170
02:21:36.360 --> 02:21:37.719
Son of God of Mercy on me a sinner, and
2171
02:21:37.760 --> 02:21:41.280
you can use beads for that too. So it's really
2172
02:21:41.440 --> 02:21:45.479
just a way of suspending your rational brain so that
2173
02:21:45.639 --> 02:21:48.239
you can lose yourself into the prayer and more easily
2174
02:21:49.000 --> 02:21:52.959
open yourself up to God and that's really all that
2175
02:21:53.200 --> 02:21:56.399
kind of meditative prayer is about. It's not about the repetitions.
2176
02:21:56.440 --> 02:22:00.440
It's about doing something that's prayerful that doesn't rick quire
2177
02:22:00.879 --> 02:22:03.360
conscious thoughts, so that that part of your brain can
2178
02:22:03.440 --> 02:22:06.600
sort of take a rest and the more internal aspects
2179
02:22:06.680 --> 02:22:10.280
of your spirituality can can come out and.
2180
02:22:10.360 --> 02:22:12.840
You can do it really good with an ADHD brain.
2181
02:22:12.959 --> 02:22:15.440
Yeah, that's true because it gives you.
2182
02:22:15.479 --> 02:22:16.639
Something to do, you know.
2183
02:22:16.920 --> 02:22:21.559
But but also I always push back on repetitive prayer.
2184
02:22:22.920 --> 02:22:27.520
It's a Protestant talking point. You can never say the
2185
02:22:27.559 --> 02:22:30.000
same prayer twice because it's a new moment in time.
2186
02:22:30.399 --> 02:22:32.079
There you go, that's one look at it.
2187
02:22:32.120 --> 02:22:35.520
And no Protestant says, well, I told my wife I
2188
02:22:35.600 --> 02:22:37.360
loved when I met her, so I don't need to
2189
02:22:37.399 --> 02:22:37.879
do it again.
2190
02:22:38.840 --> 02:22:40.440
But what about like the how they end it with
2191
02:22:40.600 --> 02:22:43.280
every everything in Jesus name. It's like what Jesus doesn't
2192
02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:45.680
eed is to hear that every single time. I mean,
2193
02:22:45.719 --> 02:22:47.000
come on, And.
2194
02:22:47.120 --> 02:22:52.200
Also the word just just wanna just want I just
2195
02:22:52.280 --> 02:22:54.719
wanna just wanna Why not say Hail Mary?
2196
02:22:54.959 --> 02:22:57.879
Yeah, there you go, it's a little bit better. So no,
2197
02:22:58.040 --> 02:23:00.360
I don't think it's something that you have to learn balance,
2198
02:23:00.440 --> 02:23:02.360
you're interested in it, and it's something that you can
2199
02:23:02.639 --> 02:23:04.520
very easily pick up to see if you like it.
2200
02:23:04.559 --> 02:23:06.000
If it's a type of prayer that speaks to you.
2201
02:23:06.920 --> 02:23:08.799
It doesn't say I do value it and I do
2202
02:23:08.920 --> 02:23:11.360
pray it. Yeah, that's why I said, you don't have
2203
02:23:11.520 --> 02:23:11.879
to say it.
2204
02:23:12.000 --> 02:23:14.920
Yeah, yeah, you know, but I actually love it. But
2205
02:23:15.040 --> 02:23:17.559
I mean, the Eastern version is to just do the
2206
02:23:17.680 --> 02:23:20.920
Jesus prayer, which is a part of the Hessechasm tradition
2207
02:23:21.120 --> 02:23:24.000
of it leads to Theosis. So in a way, you
2208
02:23:24.079 --> 02:23:28.840
already have your own version of it. It's just not focused. Yeah,
2209
02:23:29.079 --> 02:23:31.319
that's true too. Yeah, and even in the Church of Rome,
2210
02:23:31.360 --> 02:23:34.040
there's the Chaplet of Saint Michael, there's a chaplet of
2211
02:23:34.079 --> 02:23:36.680
Divine Mercy. You see us do the Chaplet of Divine
2212
02:23:36.760 --> 02:23:41.520
Mercy on every Good Friday. We actually integrate that into
2213
02:23:41.600 --> 02:23:43.879
our Good Friday Service because actually the Good Friday Service
2214
02:23:44.239 --> 02:23:46.600
has sections in the rubric where you're allowed to kind
2215
02:23:46.639 --> 02:23:49.959
of just do whatever observances feel right because it's not
2216
02:23:50.040 --> 02:23:54.920
a Mass, it's just a more formal type of open liturgy. Really,
2217
02:23:55.440 --> 02:23:57.639
so there's different churches will be doing different.
2218
02:23:57.360 --> 02:24:01.600
For the bowels it's a pre sanctified this yeah, pre
2219
02:24:01.719 --> 02:24:04.959
sanctified which came from the West. And ironically there's only
2220
02:24:05.000 --> 02:24:06.840
one surviving in the West, which is a good Frida,
2221
02:24:07.360 --> 02:24:11.120
and the Eastern Church has many many pre sanct I
2222
02:24:11.159 --> 02:24:11.799
guess it's true.
2223
02:24:11.840 --> 02:24:12.879
Yeah, it came from the west.
2224
02:24:13.000 --> 02:24:15.680
Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's interesting how that works. But
2225
02:24:16.280 --> 02:24:18.000
how that answers your question, fellan? Did it?
2226
02:24:19.280 --> 02:24:19.639
It does?
2227
02:24:19.879 --> 02:24:22.040
It does, And it makes me feel better that I
2228
02:24:22.079 --> 02:24:24.639
don't have to feel I sit in because I already
2229
02:24:24.760 --> 02:24:28.079
know that prayer. So I guess that that's suffice and
2230
02:24:28.639 --> 02:24:30.799
I won't worry about it. But sometimes I think about
2231
02:24:30.840 --> 02:24:33.760
the differences as I'm meeting people through the church, and
2232
02:24:34.719 --> 02:24:36.799
you know, I mean I kind of want to sit in,
2233
02:24:36.920 --> 02:24:39.840
but I already sit in. I know I do, and
2234
02:24:40.000 --> 02:24:41.760
you know I love the church and I love the
2235
02:24:41.879 --> 02:24:44.639
work you guys, do you know? Bless you well.
2236
02:24:44.639 --> 02:24:46.719
I appreciate that. I mean that means a lot, and
2237
02:24:46.799 --> 02:24:49.399
I mean you're you know you This church would not
2238
02:24:49.520 --> 02:24:52.159
be the same without you and the contributions you make
2239
02:24:52.360 --> 02:24:54.399
in terms of all your you know, being at every
2240
02:24:54.479 --> 02:24:57.280
mass and and and and being the moderator at all
2241
02:24:57.319 --> 02:25:01.280
these shows. I know that's a time commitment, and uh,
2242
02:25:01.559 --> 02:25:04.280
you know, we couldn't do what we do without you,
2243
02:25:04.360 --> 02:25:07.639
at least not well, you know, because we can't always
2244
02:25:07.680 --> 02:25:10.239
be looking at the chat when all of us have
2245
02:25:10.319 --> 02:25:12.719
a role at Mass. So you know, we're really grateful
2246
02:25:12.799 --> 02:25:14.000
for everything that you do.
2247
02:25:15.639 --> 02:25:18.040
I have a prayer rope and I love the Jesus prayer.
2248
02:25:18.520 --> 02:25:20.920
I use it to Jesus prayer too. I mean that
2249
02:25:21.000 --> 02:25:22.840
that that would be I mean that's more of an
2250
02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:25.719
Orthodox way of doing that kind same kind of prayer
2251
02:25:25.760 --> 02:25:27.639
will have the same effect. But if you want to
2252
02:25:27.680 --> 02:25:31.200
try the rosary, you know, that's that's always open. Not
2253
02:25:31.639 --> 02:25:32.799
but like Father Chris said, not a.
2254
02:25:32.799 --> 02:25:35.600
Rec I'm sure. I'm sure Paula is bringing the rosary
2255
02:25:35.639 --> 02:25:38.959
when we come to you. Okay, I will probably observe this.
2256
02:25:39.360 --> 02:25:41.079
All right, Well we can we can try it, you know,
2257
02:25:41.159 --> 02:25:43.239
we can try when you guys come out to thereat.
2258
02:25:43.879 --> 02:25:47.920
There's there's nothing in it that's hostile to Orthodoxy, nothing
2259
02:25:47.959 --> 02:25:48.319
at all.
2260
02:25:49.239 --> 02:25:53.920
Well, subject to there's a mystery, the mystery of the
2261
02:25:53.959 --> 02:25:58.319
assumption that they don't get the dirmisi. Yeah, and there's
2262
02:25:58.319 --> 02:26:01.360
the Immaculate conception too, But you know, these are these
2263
02:26:01.399 --> 02:26:03.639
are things that you can just look at them from
2264
02:26:03.639 --> 02:26:05.959
the orthodox vantage point, because you do have the door mission,
2265
02:26:06.319 --> 02:26:08.319
and it's not that different from the assumption. It really
2266
02:26:08.440 --> 02:26:12.239
isn't it really isn't. You know, these are just kinds
2267
02:26:12.280 --> 02:26:14.280
of things that the Alogians like to argue about because
2268
02:26:14.280 --> 02:26:15.079
they have nothing better to do.
2269
02:26:16.440 --> 02:26:16.479
That.
2270
02:26:16.760 --> 02:26:20.120
No, no, no, certainly wasn't that. But thanks so much
2271
02:26:20.159 --> 02:26:21.000
for calling in, Vellop.
2272
02:26:21.040 --> 02:26:23.600
We appreciate it well, and thanks for your time. Okay,
2273
02:26:23.879 --> 02:26:25.520
let you go, absolutely, thank you.
2274
02:26:26.920 --> 02:26:29.239
Uh yeah, if you got a call a question rather
2275
02:26:29.360 --> 02:26:31.719
and want to call in a comment, story anything, two
2276
02:26:31.879 --> 02:26:34.559
seven five four four nineteen eighty three. That's two zero
2277
02:26:34.680 --> 02:26:36.760
seven five four four nineteen eighty three. I have it
2278
02:26:36.840 --> 02:26:39.000
on the screen for anyone that would like to call
2279
02:26:39.120 --> 02:26:42.920
in and ask your questions or tell us your stories.
2280
02:26:43.920 --> 02:26:46.760
So yeah, I mean I went through a lot in
2281
02:26:46.920 --> 02:26:50.479
the last segment very quickly. There's so much that I
2282
02:26:50.479 --> 02:26:52.239
could have said about all of those points, and there
2283
02:26:52.280 --> 02:26:54.319
were points I didn't even really have time to get to.
2284
02:26:55.559 --> 02:27:01.200
But I think that was a good sort of preparatory
2285
02:27:01.760 --> 02:27:07.680
introduction to what esoteric Christianity looks like as a nicol
2286
02:27:07.879 --> 02:27:12.600
In tradition, because it's not a Gnostic tradition. We're not gnostics.
2287
02:27:13.399 --> 02:27:16.159
We talk about gnosis, but only in the same sense
2288
02:27:16.200 --> 02:27:18.319
that the New Testament uses the word. We don't use
2289
02:27:18.399 --> 02:27:21.399
it in the gnosticism sense. We don't believe in the
2290
02:27:21.559 --> 02:27:24.440
demi urge, and you know, we're not trying to escape
2291
02:27:24.520 --> 02:27:29.000
the evils of the physical world where there's transcendence there.
2292
02:27:29.600 --> 02:27:31.200
But but we also understand.
2293
02:27:33.920 --> 02:27:37.639
I'm I right in thinking because you know, especially the
2294
02:27:37.760 --> 02:27:40.440
first half of what you were saying, I didn't see
2295
02:27:40.440 --> 02:27:44.760
any distinction between what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.
2296
02:27:45.840 --> 02:27:49.440
I do want to draw a distinction, which is which
2297
02:27:49.520 --> 02:27:52.120
is what the Roman Catho Church actually teaches as opposed
2298
02:27:52.159 --> 02:27:58.479
to what people think it and what people badly teach. Okay,
2299
02:27:58.959 --> 02:28:04.200
so there're threefferent concepts. And like I said about a
2300
02:28:04.239 --> 02:28:07.200
different topic, a priest is just a priest, a bishop
2301
02:28:07.319 --> 02:28:07.959
is just a bishop.
2302
02:28:08.319 --> 02:28:08.479
You know.
2303
02:28:08.879 --> 02:28:13.159
Not everything that a bishop and priest teaches is necessarily
2304
02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:16.319
solidly based on what the Roman Catholic Church teach you
2305
02:28:16.520 --> 02:28:20.520
it should be or and or is sometimes explained in
2306
02:28:20.600 --> 02:28:21.559
a way that we think.
2307
02:28:21.440 --> 02:28:24.000
We've communicated what the church teaches, but what you've heard
2308
02:28:24.079 --> 02:28:24.799
is something different.
2309
02:28:24.959 --> 02:28:25.680
Right, And so.
2310
02:28:27.159 --> 02:28:29.319
Fulton Sheen, one of his famous things was to say,
2311
02:28:29.479 --> 02:28:32.040
you know, there's no one on earth that objects to
2312
02:28:32.120 --> 02:28:35.280
what the Catholic Church teaches. There are many people that
2313
02:28:35.399 --> 02:28:38.040
objects to what they think the Catholic Church teaches. Like
2314
02:28:38.639 --> 02:28:40.799
this kind of way of saying the same thing. But
2315
02:28:41.319 --> 02:28:45.399
am I right in saying that by foregrounding that you're
2316
02:28:45.399 --> 02:28:50.239
an esoteric Catholic Church. What you're saying is that, because
2317
02:28:50.280 --> 02:28:52.600
I said that, the opposite is exoteric. Right, So you've
2318
02:28:52.639 --> 02:28:58.840
got the structural outward interactions like the liturgies and all
2319
02:28:58.879 --> 02:29:03.000
of that is sort of the soteric. Ye, esoteric is
2320
02:29:03.040 --> 02:29:05.760
the inner life. All of these exists within the church
2321
02:29:05.799 --> 02:29:09.879
that John of the Cross, the consemplative tradition. But what
2322
02:29:10.000 --> 02:29:13.120
you're saying is that this church places greater emphasis on
2323
02:29:13.239 --> 02:29:16.959
the inner life. I don't think that's a bad thing.
2324
02:29:17.000 --> 02:29:21.280
By the way, we place a greater emphasis on, or
2325
02:29:21.399 --> 02:29:27.559
foreground the inner journey, partly in response to the fact
2326
02:29:27.600 --> 02:29:31.280
that there's been too much focus on the externalities.
2327
02:29:31.639 --> 02:29:34.600
Yeah, that's that's a very accurate and very i would
2328
02:29:34.680 --> 02:29:39.319
say enlightened way of putting it, because I really could
2329
02:29:39.360 --> 02:29:41.319
have said it better myself, and I hope that that's.
2330
02:29:41.159 --> 02:29:42.959
Definitely a Father Yates response.
2331
02:29:44.559 --> 02:29:47.360
I hope it came across in the last hour that
2332
02:29:47.719 --> 02:29:49.879
this is really what we're all about, because I think
2333
02:29:49.959 --> 02:29:52.879
people think that it's some kind of strange gnostic.
2334
02:29:52.879 --> 02:29:55.959
Church or something thrown around when I first came.
2335
02:29:57.879 --> 02:29:59.000
Around from time to time.
2336
02:30:00.040 --> 02:30:04.040
Whils Yeah, in the in the in the actual definition
2337
02:30:04.159 --> 02:30:06.399
of colts, not the not the modern vernacular.
2338
02:30:06.600 --> 02:30:09.600
There's a picture when I we had the the the
2339
02:30:10.920 --> 02:30:14.840
the religious Order, you know, of the the with the nuns,
2340
02:30:15.079 --> 02:30:17.239
you know, and we had you know, sister Mary Joan
2341
02:30:17.319 --> 02:30:20.239
back then, and and and and Tracy was Sister Maximilian
2342
02:30:20.280 --> 02:30:25.040
when everyone was was in the the Order of Seven Archangels,
2343
02:30:25.399 --> 02:30:27.360
we had a picture of all of when when the
2344
02:30:27.559 --> 02:30:29.719
Order was at its largest, we had a picture with
2345
02:30:29.920 --> 02:30:33.879
me and all the nuns. And the first comment on
2346
02:30:34.079 --> 02:30:38.000
the first on that being posted was, see, I told
2347
02:30:38.000 --> 02:30:40.920
you it's a cult. There's all those are all his women.
2348
02:30:42.319 --> 02:30:42.479
You know.
2349
02:30:42.920 --> 02:30:47.479
And I'm not kidding. They really said this, you know,
2350
02:30:47.600 --> 02:30:48.639
and they really thought.
2351
02:30:52.079 --> 02:30:52.440
It's like.
2352
02:30:56.639 --> 02:30:59.319
Please, you know, but that that was that was what
2353
02:30:59.520 --> 02:31:01.559
was said. And so you know, there is this this
2354
02:31:01.760 --> 02:31:07.719
this this belief that because there is this belief that
2355
02:31:08.440 --> 02:31:11.159
because we are an esoteric church, that this means that
2356
02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:14.959
we're into some weird ship, and I understand just.
2357
02:31:15.000 --> 02:31:17.239
Some weird ship, but it's good weird ship.
2358
02:31:17.319 --> 02:31:17.520
Yeah.
2359
02:31:17.760 --> 02:31:21.760
And there's a difference between, you know, the weird ship
2360
02:31:21.879 --> 02:31:25.200
that we talk about being doctrine in a church, which
2361
02:31:25.239 --> 02:31:29.879
it is not here, and being philosophically open and speculative
2362
02:31:29.959 --> 02:31:34.520
and intellectuals. Yes, it is explorers. That's a very good
2363
02:31:34.520 --> 02:31:35.000
way to put it.
2364
02:31:36.159 --> 02:31:37.920
As I was listening to you, I was thinking, what's
2365
02:31:37.959 --> 02:31:40.719
the Jungian archetype for what you're describing?
2366
02:31:40.879 --> 02:31:46.440
And is the wanderer right now? But the but, and
2367
02:31:46.520 --> 02:31:48.959
this is where you did. You did four ground that
2368
02:31:49.120 --> 02:31:50.440
you know the word.
2369
02:31:50.799 --> 02:31:53.479
You're using the word dogmatic in a particular way, which
2370
02:31:53.559 --> 02:31:56.559
which I accept, and you even said that you know
2371
02:31:56.680 --> 02:32:00.000
I use it it's more classical sense, which is also.
2372
02:31:59.840 --> 02:32:00.680
A right.
2373
02:32:02.680 --> 02:32:03.639
We have to make that.
2374
02:32:04.040 --> 02:32:06.040
Yeah, And I think that's helpful because you're right, most
2375
02:32:06.079 --> 02:32:08.440
people listening to the show just think a dogmatic church
2376
02:32:08.559 --> 02:32:09.760
means a finger wagging church.
2377
02:32:09.840 --> 02:32:09.959
Right.
2378
02:32:11.520 --> 02:32:14.360
But but whereas you know the true the true meaning
2379
02:32:14.360 --> 02:32:17.360
of the word dogma, I'm really not trying to recover
2380
02:32:17.479 --> 02:32:19.680
the word or play some antics, and I think it's pointless.
2381
02:32:19.719 --> 02:32:22.879
But because I think what you described is helpful and good.
2382
02:32:23.399 --> 02:32:30.000
But even Young himself with the Wanderer, even though Young
2383
02:32:30.200 --> 02:32:35.200
was sort of skeptical about the dogmatic claims of the church,
2384
02:32:35.840 --> 02:32:39.760
he said, essentially, you have to have the dogmatic claims
2385
02:32:39.840 --> 02:32:43.120
in order to be the Wanderer, right, so psychologically, the
2386
02:32:43.200 --> 02:32:44.239
only safe way to do.
2387
02:32:44.360 --> 02:32:47.879
That is to so in other words, you need dogma
2388
02:32:47.959 --> 02:32:50.399
in order to be the Wanderer. I mean, it's a
2389
02:32:50.479 --> 02:32:53.719
bit like if you know, if you're making music. You know,
2390
02:32:53.799 --> 02:32:56.840
I'm a musician. I studied music, you know, classical and
2391
02:32:57.239 --> 02:32:58.040
rock and all the rest of it.
2392
02:32:58.440 --> 02:33:03.360
The structure to music, right, But the structure isn't there
2393
02:33:03.440 --> 02:33:05.360
to impose restrictions of it.
2394
02:33:05.479 --> 02:33:07.520
It's there. It's there as a means by which you
2395
02:33:07.600 --> 02:33:09.040
can then do something creative.
2396
02:33:10.000 --> 02:33:12.159
So you know, rather than a blank canvas, you have
2397
02:33:12.239 --> 02:33:14.440
a stave and you have you know, form, and you
2398
02:33:14.520 --> 02:33:17.159
have these sorts of harmony in the way harmony work together,
2399
02:33:17.760 --> 02:33:21.319
and rather than being being a restriction on your creativity,
2400
02:33:21.399 --> 02:33:23.040
actually enables your creativity.
2401
02:33:23.399 --> 02:33:24.479
That's that's correct.
2402
02:33:24.559 --> 02:33:26.760
You know, I think what you can spell, you can
2403
02:33:26.840 --> 02:33:27.600
do poetry, you know.
2404
02:33:28.760 --> 02:33:30.319
I think one way that we can look at and
2405
02:33:30.360 --> 02:33:32.040
I can give you a very simple way I've said
2406
02:33:32.079 --> 02:33:34.000
this before, and I could have said it last hour,
2407
02:33:34.079 --> 02:33:36.200
but you know, it's still very much applies to what
2408
02:33:36.280 --> 02:33:40.760
we're talking about in a dogmatic church. In the context
2409
02:33:40.840 --> 02:33:48.239
that I'm using it, it is very problematic if for
2410
02:33:48.399 --> 02:33:51.520
a Christian in such a church, so let's say the
2411
02:33:51.600 --> 02:33:55.360
church are Roman this context, it would be very problematic
2412
02:33:55.520 --> 02:34:01.239
if some irrefutable proof came along, that proof without any question,
2413
02:34:01.360 --> 02:34:03.120
no one could no one could doubt it. I don't
2414
02:34:03.159 --> 02:34:04.879
know if that could even be possible, but let's just
2415
02:34:04.959 --> 02:34:07.559
pretend it is. You know, maybe it's someone whovents a
2416
02:34:07.600 --> 02:34:09.360
time machine or something, so we can go back and
2417
02:34:09.479 --> 02:34:13.600
see what really happened, that Jesus did not exist and
2418
02:34:13.680 --> 02:34:16.600
that he was just a story that was told, you know,
2419
02:34:18.159 --> 02:34:21.479
like any of the other mythologies that exist in the world. Okay,
2420
02:34:21.520 --> 02:34:24.159
so let's just say that that's the case. Okay. That
2421
02:34:24.239 --> 02:34:27.559
would be very problematic for a dogmatic church with a
2422
02:34:27.680 --> 02:34:32.799
dogmatic congregation because if Jesus is not a historical person
2423
02:34:32.879 --> 02:34:35.840
that did the things that the gospels say, well then
2424
02:34:36.120 --> 02:34:39.319
nothing really happened and nothing means anything. But see, in
2425
02:34:39.440 --> 02:34:42.799
an esoteric church that is non dogmatic about these things,
2426
02:34:43.040 --> 02:34:46.680
it wouldn't matter one bit, because I we understand in
2427
02:34:46.799 --> 02:34:49.399
this in the way that we approach theology, is that
2428
02:34:49.959 --> 02:34:52.440
whether Jesus was a historical person or not, which we
2429
02:34:52.559 --> 02:34:54.200
do believe he was, by the way, and we do
2430
02:34:54.360 --> 02:34:57.159
believe he did the things historically that the gospels report,
2431
02:34:57.879 --> 02:34:58.559
that's not interest.
2432
02:35:00.120 --> 02:35:02.879
I mean, well, actually it's not only not in dispute.
2433
02:35:03.479 --> 02:35:05.799
By definition, you can't say what you're going to say
2434
02:35:05.840 --> 02:35:06.879
unless you do believe that.
2435
02:35:07.079 --> 02:35:09.879
Well, that's true. But if I if it were to
2436
02:35:10.040 --> 02:35:16.159
come out that it didn't happen, it wouldn't change anything,
2437
02:35:16.280 --> 02:35:23.000
because the power of Christ is already present within the
2438
02:35:23.200 --> 02:35:27.879
events of what we experienced through the Gospel and the
2439
02:35:28.000 --> 02:35:32.319
sacramental participation that we get to engage with as Catholics.
2440
02:35:32.639 --> 02:35:38.399
So in the sense that's the definition of what is true, yes, yes, yes.
2441
02:35:38.719 --> 02:35:39.799
In other words, you.
2442
02:35:39.840 --> 02:35:42.920
Know, historically factual. Let's say that. Let's just say, if
2443
02:35:43.000 --> 02:35:47.120
it came out that it's not it was historically false,
2444
02:35:47.479 --> 02:35:50.760
that these things did not occur, it would not change anything.
2445
02:35:51.680 --> 02:35:55.079
I think I think I think you're describing the classical true.
2446
02:35:55.159 --> 02:35:59.399
Is it's true that the opposite of faith, sorry that
2447
02:35:59.680 --> 02:36:03.719
the it of faith is certainty, And I agree with
2448
02:36:03.799 --> 02:36:11.200
that yes, so, but here you know, it's also and
2449
02:36:11.280 --> 02:36:13.680
this is where I think this is a healthy dogmatic
2450
02:36:13.719 --> 02:36:16.040
approach as opposed to what you're rightly condemning.
2451
02:36:17.479 --> 02:36:18.159
It is to say that.
2452
02:36:20.799 --> 02:36:23.040
It's not that when the church says this is true,
2453
02:36:23.120 --> 02:36:26.399
it's saying it's exhausted or mystery or you know, it's
2454
02:36:26.440 --> 02:36:29.319
got the exact definition of everything that's going on. But
2455
02:36:29.440 --> 02:36:32.840
what it says is that there are truths that have
2456
02:36:32.959 --> 02:36:37.399
been revealed and defined. And once they've been revealed and defined,
2457
02:36:37.879 --> 02:36:40.719
we don't revise downward. So although we can enter into mystery,
2458
02:36:40.799 --> 02:36:41.079
we don't.
2459
02:36:41.120 --> 02:36:44.479
We don't go backwards, you know, we go upwards.
2460
02:36:46.120 --> 02:36:54.159
And whereas certainty is the opposite of faith, humility and
2461
02:36:54.239 --> 02:36:58.360
certainty are not opposite. So and I think the healthy
2462
02:36:58.440 --> 02:37:02.280
dogmatism of what I I know that the actual church teaches,
2463
02:37:02.399 --> 02:37:04.639
as opposed to what's received or past, you know, what
2464
02:37:04.719 --> 02:37:07.959
people have experienced. So I'm not I'm not doubting people's
2465
02:37:08.120 --> 02:37:11.120
horrible experiences of interactions with the church. That's a that's
2466
02:37:11.159 --> 02:37:12.239
a different thing altogether.
2467
02:37:13.719 --> 02:37:15.079
Sin But but but.
2468
02:37:16.840 --> 02:37:20.719
It's not as though the magisterium and he actually touched
2469
02:37:20.760 --> 02:37:23.479
on this. The magistumers and say, right, here's all these truths,
2470
02:37:23.479 --> 02:37:25.040
We're going to beat you over the head with them.
2471
02:37:25.680 --> 02:37:27.719
It's the opposite of that. It is saying, these are
2472
02:37:27.760 --> 02:37:30.120
the truths that have been revealed to us, which we
2473
02:37:30.200 --> 02:37:33.319
hold in all humility, and therefore for it's from a
2474
02:37:33.959 --> 02:37:36.639
you know, the true approach of the of the Catholic
2475
02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:40.239
is to say, it's from a position of humility that
2476
02:37:40.360 --> 02:37:44.399
I beg you to consider this revealed truth of God
2477
02:37:44.840 --> 02:37:48.360
like babies in the womb, a precious you know. It's
2478
02:37:49.319 --> 02:37:52.760
whereas the finger wagging approaches oh, you know. And this
2479
02:37:52.920 --> 02:37:55.799
is abused by Catholics to say, well, a Catholic church
2480
02:37:55.840 --> 02:38:03.840
teaches this, so you're a you're an evil whatever. That
2481
02:38:04.000 --> 02:38:07.399
is a misuse and an abuse of the depositive faith
2482
02:38:07.440 --> 02:38:09.959
that the magisterium holds. It's not to be it's not
2483
02:38:10.079 --> 02:38:12.520
to be wielded as a cutel. It should be beheld
2484
02:38:12.600 --> 02:38:15.520
in all humidity to win souls for Christ.
2485
02:38:15.959 --> 02:38:19.879
Nothing in religion, it's a love song, it is nothing
2486
02:38:20.040 --> 02:38:22.440
in religion. Nothing in the church should be used as
2487
02:38:22.440 --> 02:38:24.799
a weapon against another person. A weap against a weapon
2488
02:38:24.840 --> 02:38:27.559
against evil, yes, but not against people, and not against
2489
02:38:27.600 --> 02:38:29.760
people who do evil things. Even I mean, that's the
2490
02:38:30.079 --> 02:38:33.719
idea is yes, yeah, bad ideas, Yeah, ideas, but not people,
2491
02:38:33.879 --> 02:38:36.959
not an individual. Yeah, And unfortunately what happens is it
2492
02:38:37.079 --> 02:38:40.040
becomes an attack on people calling in from the two
2493
02:38:40.280 --> 02:38:43.520
oh eight area code, which covers the state of Idaho.
2494
02:38:43.600 --> 02:38:45.959
I believe, Hello, you are on the air with Vestiges
2495
02:38:45.959 --> 02:38:46.440
after dark.
2496
02:38:48.040 --> 02:38:51.399
Hi, and Jimmy, I just had to call in, Paula.
2497
02:38:52.680 --> 02:38:54.600
You doing Yeah, I'm.
2498
02:38:54.520 --> 02:38:56.760
Not since Bell got in on it. Father Chris is
2499
02:38:56.879 --> 02:38:58.120
cracking me up over here.
2500
02:39:01.040 --> 02:39:04.559
Yeah, he's uh, he's a regular comedian for us.
2501
02:39:06.559 --> 02:39:09.319
Yeah, he's really. I just kind of wanted to make
2502
02:39:09.360 --> 02:39:11.719
a comment because I feel like, you know, when I
2503
02:39:11.799 --> 02:39:14.680
am biased. I mean, I'll admit it, I'm biased towards
2504
02:39:14.760 --> 02:39:18.639
this church, but I am very faithful with the local
2505
02:39:18.719 --> 02:39:21.120
church that we go to. And I think that one
2506
02:39:21.159 --> 02:39:23.840
of the difficulties that my son and my husband and
2507
02:39:23.879 --> 02:39:26.520
I have had in serving and being a part of
2508
02:39:26.639 --> 02:39:29.239
the local church here is when you talk to them
2509
02:39:29.280 --> 02:39:32.680
and you try to explain, you know, for instance, you
2510
02:39:32.840 --> 02:39:35.280
all know and for now the people listening, you know,
2511
02:39:35.360 --> 02:39:37.760
we are planning on a trip with Moosh to come
2512
02:39:37.840 --> 02:39:40.799
out and visit the retreat center and meet y'all in
2513
02:39:40.920 --> 02:39:44.799
person and and be able to attend a mask.
2514
02:39:44.959 --> 02:39:49.760
I mean, Jamie, he's.
2515
02:39:49.639 --> 02:39:51.799
Making more making jokes there.
2516
02:39:53.559 --> 02:39:54.159
Now I'm a.
2517
02:39:54.239 --> 02:40:01.440
Texted Now, Father Chris that idels in the past, that's right,
2518
02:40:01.559 --> 02:40:06.760
brings barbecue, yeah, no.
2519
02:40:07.000 --> 02:40:09.120
No scoreworms though, oh yeah, I don't.
2520
02:40:09.559 --> 02:40:10.280
Don't bring that with you.
2521
02:40:14.440 --> 02:40:17.959
But people, I mean, Jamie's right, people think we're nuts.
2522
02:40:18.559 --> 02:40:20.360
And you know, they'll say, well, that sounds like a
2523
02:40:20.399 --> 02:40:22.399
coal And I always think, like it's a bad thing.
2524
02:40:22.639 --> 02:40:24.360
You're saying it like it's a bad thing if this
2525
02:40:24.600 --> 02:40:27.239
is if this is what that is to you, then
2526
02:40:27.719 --> 02:40:29.799
but if you you hit it on the nail on
2527
02:40:29.840 --> 02:40:31.479
the head. I just wanted to make this point to
2528
02:40:31.600 --> 02:40:35.319
the audience this church, and I'm not I mean, Father
2529
02:40:35.440 --> 02:40:37.319
Chris loses me. I feel like dummer than a door
2530
02:40:37.440 --> 02:40:41.159
nail sometimes when he's speaking. But I'm always in awe of.
2531
02:40:44.040 --> 02:40:44.799
What I learned.
2532
02:40:45.200 --> 02:40:48.159
This church is more of an intellectual church. It wasn't
2533
02:40:48.280 --> 02:40:53.559
until this church that I understood what I'm doing, all
2534
02:40:53.639 --> 02:41:00.479
of the processes, the sacraments, all of those things, that
2535
02:41:00.760 --> 02:41:03.479
what they mean. And I noticed that in my sense
2536
02:41:03.520 --> 02:41:06.159
of the all the time, He's like, mom, people don't
2537
02:41:06.239 --> 02:41:08.440
know what they're doing. And then they try to defend it,
2538
02:41:09.680 --> 02:41:11.639
and then they end up in in argument and we're
2539
02:41:11.719 --> 02:41:14.799
just looking at them like because I don't argue.
2540
02:41:15.319 --> 02:41:18.280
I know, I think I think you've hit the nail
2541
02:41:18.360 --> 02:41:18.840
on the head.
2542
02:41:19.000 --> 02:41:23.440
And look, let me help you synthesize it in terms
2543
02:41:23.479 --> 02:41:26.719
of the local you know, your local parish and the
2544
02:41:26.840 --> 02:41:31.600
church at rit large. The church has different places for
2545
02:41:31.760 --> 02:41:36.959
different purposes. So like the parish church, this is one
2546
02:41:37.000 --> 02:41:40.520
of the weaknesses, right. You know, if what we expect
2547
02:41:40.600 --> 02:41:42.360
is to go to our parish church on Sunday, and
2548
02:41:42.440 --> 02:41:46.639
I ran parish churches for years, okay, If what we
2549
02:41:46.760 --> 02:41:50.520
expect is to go to Mass on Sunday, Saturday night
2550
02:41:50.680 --> 02:41:54.040
or Sunday and receive everything we need to know about
2551
02:41:54.079 --> 02:41:58.280
the faith, then we It's the equivalent of going to
2552
02:41:58.479 --> 02:42:01.040
Sunday school expected to get university degree.
2553
02:42:01.959 --> 02:42:05.319
It's not. It's not for that purpose. The purpose of
2554
02:42:05.639 --> 02:42:08.040
the of the parish Mass is actually.
2555
02:42:07.760 --> 02:42:11.879
To meet our obligations to God, to worship, to receive
2556
02:42:12.000 --> 02:42:15.000
us the Holy Communion and all of that.
2557
02:42:15.680 --> 02:42:18.159
We're not. It's not the finishing school for Christianity.
2558
02:42:18.239 --> 02:42:21.639
And the problem is we live in a very reduced
2559
02:42:22.440 --> 02:42:24.879
period of the church's life, especially.
2560
02:42:24.520 --> 02:42:26.719
In the West, where we've allowed so many things to
2561
02:42:26.799 --> 02:42:27.239
take over.
2562
02:42:28.440 --> 02:42:31.399
Lots of studies have shown that people have far more
2563
02:42:31.479 --> 02:42:34.520
spare time in medieval times when they were serfs than
2564
02:42:34.559 --> 02:42:36.760
we do today because they've got all the Holy days
2565
02:42:36.799 --> 02:42:39.600
off right, and they would have had to turn away
2566
02:42:39.600 --> 02:42:43.120
from work to learn. And so and the purpose of universities,
2567
02:42:43.159 --> 02:42:45.399
by the way, was in fact to do what we're
2568
02:42:45.440 --> 02:42:48.200
doing here. That was the purpose of the university was
2569
02:42:48.239 --> 02:42:52.040
to allow those men, let's be honest, men who had
2570
02:42:52.079 --> 02:42:56.040
the capacity, the ability, the support in order to deepen
2571
02:42:56.520 --> 02:42:59.319
knowledge of the faith, which is not the same as narcicism,
2572
02:43:00.520 --> 02:43:05.000
but to understand the revealed faith. That's what universities were for.
2573
02:43:05.440 --> 02:43:09.799
And now all of that is essentially lost. And so
2574
02:43:09.959 --> 02:43:13.719
we have podcasts that are backfielding. Robert Baron, Bishop Robert
2575
02:43:13.760 --> 02:43:15.479
Barroon was onto this a long time ago. He set
2576
02:43:15.559 --> 02:43:19.000
up Word of Fire when podcasts were not common.
2577
02:43:19.799 --> 02:43:20.079
And so.
2578
02:43:21.719 --> 02:43:23.879
Now the church writ large, you know, you know, the
2579
02:43:23.959 --> 02:43:27.200
holy see the magisterium. They're not there to have the
2580
02:43:27.319 --> 02:43:30.239
personal interaction with you. So they're there to set the
2581
02:43:30.319 --> 02:43:32.840
sort of I would say they're very low bar for
2582
02:43:32.959 --> 02:43:35.680
the teachings of the church, you know, the creeds, how
2583
02:43:35.760 --> 02:43:39.440
to respond to the macro social movements that go on,
2584
02:43:40.040 --> 02:43:43.319
and you get that generally through the letters of the
2585
02:43:43.399 --> 02:43:47.879
popes and the like. So the church exists at different
2586
02:43:48.440 --> 02:43:52.719
levels for different purposes. And the sort of intellectual engagement
2587
02:43:52.760 --> 02:43:55.200
that I think you're valuing in what goes on here,
2588
02:43:56.760 --> 02:43:58.799
maybe the movement in the life of the church is
2589
02:43:58.879 --> 02:44:02.200
that that takes place on podcasts and on you know,
2590
02:44:02.399 --> 02:44:04.600
in book groups and in study groups that you know,
2591
02:44:04.920 --> 02:44:08.120
when I ran churches, I was keen to set up
2592
02:44:08.520 --> 02:44:12.440
cell groups so people could meet, you know, and not
2593
02:44:12.559 --> 02:44:13.440
everyone has to.
2594
02:44:13.479 --> 02:44:15.879
Be a university professor.
2595
02:44:17.079 --> 02:44:19.600
You know, you have groups where you can sort of
2596
02:44:19.879 --> 02:44:22.440
grow and deepen in not just in faith in terms
2597
02:44:22.479 --> 02:44:26.639
of the esoteric practice, but also in the knowledge in
2598
02:44:26.680 --> 02:44:30.040
fact knowing what the church has distilled over the ages.
2599
02:44:30.159 --> 02:44:32.680
So you know, it's asking a lot of a local
2600
02:44:32.799 --> 02:44:35.440
church to be able to do all of that. And look,
2601
02:44:35.920 --> 02:44:38.360
the truth is that churches are under resourced with with
2602
02:44:38.479 --> 02:44:41.319
the people that fill them. And so if we just
2603
02:44:41.399 --> 02:44:43.680
go and we're passive receivers and sit on our bottoms
2604
02:44:43.680 --> 02:44:46.639
on Sunday expecting all this to be downloaded, like with
2605
02:44:46.799 --> 02:44:50.319
the board waiting for the for the nanopros to be injected,
2606
02:44:50.360 --> 02:44:51.559
and we can all become.
2607
02:44:51.360 --> 02:44:51.760
Aware of it.
2608
02:44:52.000 --> 02:44:55.639
I think another part of the issue All is speaking to,
2609
02:44:56.159 --> 02:45:05.000
you know, is that we Christianity is a very complex religion.
2610
02:45:05.159 --> 02:45:10.120
It's extremely, far more complex than I think the average
2611
02:45:10.159 --> 02:45:14.360
person can even begin to fathom. And that includes largely
2612
02:45:14.680 --> 02:45:18.959
even those people who consider themselves good Christians and everything else.
2613
02:45:19.479 --> 02:45:22.440
I don't think the average Christian can even begin to
2614
02:45:22.520 --> 02:45:26.559
fathom how complex the religion is that they are practicing,
2615
02:45:26.639 --> 02:45:28.559
even when they don't think they're practicing a religion because
2616
02:45:28.559 --> 02:45:31.120
they're like, oh, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, I believe
2617
02:45:31.120 --> 02:45:33.239
in the Bible. I'm a Bible Christian. It's like, well, no,
2618
02:45:33.319 --> 02:45:36.239
that's a religion. It's Christianity is a religion. So you're
2619
02:45:36.280 --> 02:45:38.520
just playing a semantics game to create a fight, which
2620
02:45:38.559 --> 02:45:41.120
is really anti intellectual in my opinion. But you know,
2621
02:45:41.200 --> 02:45:46.559
that's another story. My issue here is that in times past,
2622
02:45:46.959 --> 02:45:50.399
people spent a great deal more time on understanding these
2623
02:45:50.479 --> 02:45:54.479
things because they took them far more seriously. So families
2624
02:45:54.639 --> 02:45:57.760
like yours that still take them seriously will have a
2625
02:45:57.840 --> 02:46:00.639
hard time finding other people that take the seriously so
2626
02:46:00.760 --> 02:46:03.159
that you can share these ideas and have these kinds
2627
02:46:03.200 --> 02:46:05.760
of discussions. Because there's just not a whole lot of
2628
02:46:05.799 --> 02:46:08.040
people out there that care enough, and that includes the
2629
02:46:08.079 --> 02:46:11.200
so called Christians that go to church every Sunday. I
2630
02:46:11.760 --> 02:46:14.840
find that there is real it's really Again, this is
2631
02:46:14.920 --> 02:46:16.479
part of what we were talking about earlier with the
2632
02:46:16.600 --> 02:46:21.000
legalism aspects that can sometimes creep into the Western Church.
2633
02:46:21.040 --> 02:46:22.840
It happens in the East too, in different ways, but
2634
02:46:23.079 --> 02:46:26.120
it's it's very prevalent in the West. Is that they
2635
02:46:26.399 --> 02:46:29.280
are just as long as they meet their obligations, they're
2636
02:46:29.280 --> 02:46:30.920
not going to go to Hell. That's all they care about.
2637
02:46:31.280 --> 02:46:33.600
And that's the worst reason for being a Christian is
2638
02:46:33.639 --> 02:46:35.520
that you're you don't want to go to Hell. That
2639
02:46:35.639 --> 02:46:37.920
that should be the given. I mean, that's just a given.
2640
02:46:38.079 --> 02:46:41.040
What you really should be concerned with is how do
2641
02:46:41.239 --> 02:46:44.879
you approach the perfection that's your call to that you
2642
02:46:45.000 --> 02:46:48.680
were created to be And how is this achieved by
2643
02:46:48.920 --> 02:46:51.319
finding God? Not just believing in them, but finding them
2644
02:46:51.360 --> 02:46:53.159
and interacting with Him, experience them, so you don't have
2645
02:46:53.200 --> 02:46:55.920
to worry so much about maybe doesn't exist. You know,
2646
02:46:56.239 --> 02:46:57.879
I need a lot more faith then, I guess because
2647
02:46:58.000 --> 02:47:00.200
I'm having trouble. Well, you wouldn't have trouble if you
2648
02:47:00.280 --> 02:47:02.360
had those experiences, it's just you don't ever get to
2649
02:47:02.440 --> 02:47:04.799
the point where you allow yourself to have them. So
2650
02:47:04.959 --> 02:47:08.040
for families like yours that care about these things, you're
2651
02:47:08.079 --> 02:47:10.079
gonna feel like you're living in a vacuum, you know,
2652
02:47:10.159 --> 02:47:12.719
where there's just nothing nowhere. I mean, it's just an
2653
02:47:12.719 --> 02:47:15.159
abyss of people that just don't care, and no one
2654
02:47:15.239 --> 02:47:17.479
knows how to talk about it. And as Father Chris said,
2655
02:47:17.520 --> 02:47:20.719
the church rarely ever has the resources to be able
2656
02:47:20.760 --> 02:47:26.520
to provide the kind of stimulation education, you know, what
2657
02:47:26.719 --> 02:47:29.319
is necessary to truly understand the complexity of the faith,
2658
02:47:29.399 --> 02:47:31.959
which in a lot of ways requires almost more than
2659
02:47:32.040 --> 02:47:36.200
a than a doctorate degree. I mean, you almost need
2660
02:47:36.280 --> 02:47:41.680
to doctorates just to get started in this kind of discipline.
2661
02:47:42.159 --> 02:47:45.959
And that doesn't bode well for you know, casual conversation
2662
02:47:46.200 --> 02:47:48.360
and discussion. And then of course that's not to mention
2663
02:47:48.479 --> 02:47:50.079
that with social media, you have a bunch of people
2664
02:47:50.120 --> 02:47:53.559
now talking about things that they think they understand and
2665
02:47:53.639 --> 02:47:56.239
teaching as if their authorities when they're not crueless and
2666
02:47:56.280 --> 02:47:58.479
they're clueless. And you see that, and that's the.
2667
02:48:00.000 --> 02:48:03.079
People who like, oh yeah, it's all nonsense, Like why
2668
02:48:03.079 --> 02:48:04.280
are you interacting with us?
2669
02:48:04.319 --> 02:48:04.479
Then?
2670
02:48:04.760 --> 02:48:05.479
Why are you watching?
2671
02:48:07.680 --> 02:48:10.120
I asked that question. I asked that question. Last week.
2672
02:48:10.239 --> 02:48:12.479
Somebody said something hostile about one of the shorts on
2673
02:48:12.559 --> 02:48:15.520
one of the episodes we did recently, and I said,
2674
02:48:15.760 --> 02:48:18.760
I said, you know, why are you They had this
2675
02:48:18.959 --> 02:48:23.479
long paragraph about all these things that Catholicism got wrong,
2676
02:48:23.639 --> 02:48:27.639
and how you know the Pope's not this and Jesus
2677
02:48:27.760 --> 02:48:29.879
is not that, and and and and and I came
2678
02:48:29.920 --> 02:48:32.479
back and I said, if you feel this way, why
2679
02:48:32.520 --> 02:48:37.280
are you commenting on a Catholic channel about a Catholic
2680
02:48:37.479 --> 02:48:45.559
show with this attitude? And if you were unless yeah, yeah, exactly,
2681
02:48:45.719 --> 02:48:48.040
unless you were. Now this is what I said. I said,
2682
02:48:48.079 --> 02:48:51.000
it just like this, unless you're some kind of authority
2683
02:48:51.040 --> 02:48:53.120
in religion, which I seriously doubt, because you wouldn't be
2684
02:48:53.120 --> 02:48:55.879
presenting like an asshole like you are right now. And
2685
02:48:56.000 --> 02:48:58.280
that's exactly how I said it to him. You know,
2686
02:48:58.360 --> 02:49:00.399
I don't I don't pull punches with that. The thing,
2687
02:49:00.440 --> 02:49:02.440
because if you're going to come to my home and
2688
02:49:02.600 --> 02:49:04.360
and piss all over the floors, well we're gonna have
2689
02:49:04.440 --> 02:49:06.000
some words about that, and they're not going to be
2690
02:49:06.120 --> 02:49:08.639
kind words, because you've already set the stage for what
2691
02:49:08.799 --> 02:49:11.239
you want. The kind of interaction you're looking for. So
2692
02:49:11.520 --> 02:49:14.719
all I want to know is why, because clearly you're
2693
02:49:14.799 --> 02:49:18.280
no authority. Nobody here cares about what you have to say.
2694
02:49:18.639 --> 02:49:21.440
So why do you watch this channel and leave a
2695
02:49:21.520 --> 02:49:24.639
comment that's this long on it? It doesn't matter to
2696
02:49:24.719 --> 02:49:28.520
anybody here, and and you're no one, you know, so
2697
02:49:28.719 --> 02:49:29.079
just move on.
2698
02:49:29.440 --> 02:49:32.399
These are people that are looking for answers to questions
2699
02:49:32.440 --> 02:49:37.000
they have that they've never gotten an answer that that's
2700
02:49:37.040 --> 02:49:39.959
satisfied what they think it should be. Well, you said,
2701
02:49:40.639 --> 02:49:43.079
and like I said the other day, I said, he's
2702
02:49:43.120 --> 02:49:45.000
been hurt and he's projecting.
2703
02:49:45.440 --> 02:49:49.239
And that's exactly what they cannot get an answer, Jamie,
2704
02:49:49.399 --> 02:49:50.920
because they don't want it.
2705
02:49:51.239 --> 02:49:53.040
They don't want to an answer.
2706
02:49:53.239 --> 02:49:56.840
Would Well, if you if you decide when you're free falling,
2707
02:49:56.920 --> 02:49:59.600
you can be whatever you know, you can throw things
2708
02:49:59.639 --> 02:50:01.959
out right and center. If you arrive at something, you
2709
02:50:02.040 --> 02:50:05.040
have to defend something. And so I have this all
2710
02:50:05.159 --> 02:50:07.799
the time, you know, with people on Twitter and what
2711
02:50:07.920 --> 02:50:08.159
have you.
2712
02:50:08.680 --> 02:50:12.399
Oh, you believe this, you believe that in what the church?
2713
02:50:12.719 --> 02:50:15.319
And I'm like, you're only able to do that because
2714
02:50:15.319 --> 02:50:16.440
we say what we believe.
2715
02:50:17.239 --> 02:50:20.040
You know, you can you can operate in the in
2716
02:50:20.159 --> 02:50:24.520
what you believe to be, this this floating nothing nurse.
2717
02:50:24.559 --> 02:50:26.879
But in fact it is entirely dependent upon the Christian
2718
02:50:26.920 --> 02:50:29.040
gospel because you're a Western human being.
2719
02:50:29.520 --> 02:50:33.159
But but you take ownership of nothing.
2720
02:50:33.760 --> 02:50:37.280
So I can't criticize your moral structure because you claim
2721
02:50:37.840 --> 02:50:38.600
you don't claim one.
2722
02:50:39.159 --> 02:50:42.319
Right now, everyone does have a moral.
2723
02:50:42.079 --> 02:50:45.040
Structure, and eventually, if you actually engage with a human
2724
02:50:45.120 --> 02:50:48.680
being genuinely, it would reveal itself. But they're not being
2725
02:50:48.760 --> 02:50:51.399
genuine you know. And that's why I think, no, no, no,
2726
02:50:51.600 --> 02:50:54.639
I'm not. I'm not going to entertain you by letting
2727
02:50:54.680 --> 02:50:57.639
you watch me. You a bone, no, thanks, have your
2728
02:50:57.680 --> 02:50:58.239
bone back.
2729
02:50:58.399 --> 02:50:59.600
I don't want it, you know.
2730
02:50:59.719 --> 02:50:59.840
Good.
2731
02:51:00.680 --> 02:51:04.120
It's interesting that Paula you said, you know, you asked
2732
02:51:04.280 --> 02:51:06.760
or leave this comment here, because I would say that
2733
02:51:06.840 --> 02:51:09.600
both April and Jamie both found this church and come
2734
02:51:09.639 --> 02:51:11.319
to came to this church and have stayed with this
2735
02:51:11.479 --> 02:51:14.879
church for the exact same reasons that they're being nourished
2736
02:51:15.479 --> 02:51:20.559
by the the, the the the the understanding, not so
2737
02:51:20.680 --> 02:51:23.719
much the the not so much the data points. It's
2738
02:51:23.719 --> 02:51:25.399
not so much about the data points. What it is
2739
02:51:26.239 --> 02:51:30.719
is that you're interested in the understanding, which is that
2740
02:51:30.959 --> 02:51:33.440
third part of the storiology that I went through in
2741
02:51:33.479 --> 02:51:35.879
the last hour when I was talking about faith works
2742
02:51:35.920 --> 02:51:38.840
and epigosis that we need, we need to have an
2743
02:51:38.959 --> 02:51:43.399
experiential understanding. I'm not talking about noses and secret knowledge,
2744
02:51:43.520 --> 02:51:45.799
not that shit. I'm talking about And I.
2745
02:51:45.879 --> 02:51:48.559
Think all churches have failed at that. They have they
2746
02:51:48.600 --> 02:51:49.319
have not kept up.
2747
02:51:49.520 --> 02:51:51.360
And it's ironic that, you know, the sort of the
2748
02:51:51.440 --> 02:51:57.639
prostant Reformation happens in in an intellectual environment. Like you know,
2749
02:51:58.319 --> 02:52:00.600
whether they're right or wrong, we can debate, but you know,
2750
02:52:00.799 --> 02:52:04.520
Luther Calvin Zingli that these are characters who.
2751
02:52:05.079 --> 02:52:08.600
Were intellectually engaged in faith.
2752
02:52:08.760 --> 02:52:12.479
Right, Yes, I think some are more right than others,
2753
02:52:12.559 --> 02:52:15.120
but whatever, you know, but this was an intellectual pursuit
2754
02:52:15.200 --> 02:52:18.200
the printing press, read the Bible, study the scriptures. That
2755
02:52:18.360 --> 02:52:20.680
the whole essence, if you like, of the of the
2756
02:52:20.760 --> 02:52:26.879
Reformation was about a greater intellectual engagement with the faith.
2757
02:52:29.360 --> 02:52:31.920
And what's so weird is that?
2758
02:52:32.079 --> 02:52:34.719
Since not weird because I think I can explain it,
2759
02:52:34.760 --> 02:52:37.680
but I've got time now, but I'm writing.
2760
02:52:37.399 --> 02:52:37.959
A book about it.
2761
02:52:38.479 --> 02:52:41.079
But since since the sixties, I mean, you know, people
2762
02:52:41.159 --> 02:52:43.639
blowing the boomers is you know, it coincides with the
2763
02:52:43.719 --> 02:52:46.760
nineteen sixties. That's when you have the Second Lastic Council.
2764
02:52:46.959 --> 02:52:50.200
It's also when you get the charismatic and emotionalist movements
2765
02:52:50.280 --> 02:52:53.959
within Protestant churches. And ironically we end up with this
2766
02:52:54.079 --> 02:52:57.760
sort of anti intellectual approach to faith. And I think
2767
02:52:57.959 --> 02:53:02.280
that's what's left a massive hole for people who actually
2768
02:53:02.920 --> 02:53:05.479
want to engage in what the church used to promote,
2769
02:53:05.479 --> 02:53:07.719
which is faith seeking, understanding.
2770
02:53:08.840 --> 02:53:12.959
And so and that's what we're engaged in here. And
2771
02:53:13.079 --> 02:53:14.479
so of course it's going to.
2772
02:53:14.440 --> 02:53:17.399
Attract people who are intellectually curious. And it's not about
2773
02:53:17.520 --> 02:53:19.319
you know, you've got to have an IQ above one
2774
02:53:19.360 --> 02:53:22.360
hundred and fifty to be, you know, to engage with this.
2775
02:53:22.520 --> 02:53:24.719
I mean, thank God, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But
2776
02:53:25.760 --> 02:53:29.000
you know, it's so it's not about that. It's not
2777
02:53:29.079 --> 02:53:32.079
about how many degrees you've got. It's about the intellectual
2778
02:53:32.200 --> 02:53:36.079
curiosity that says I want to know more about these things.
2779
02:53:37.040 --> 02:53:39.280
I would encourage you, Paula, by the way, to talk
2780
02:53:39.319 --> 02:53:41.879
to your parish priest about it. I'd say, look, you know,
2781
02:53:42.520 --> 02:53:47.559
I gain loads of stuff from you know, understanding more
2782
02:53:47.600 --> 02:53:51.399
deeply the intellectual tradition of the church, because you know,
2783
02:53:51.799 --> 02:53:54.600
a parish priest's job is impossible. What I used to
2784
02:53:54.680 --> 02:53:59.239
try to do was plan ahead and divide homilies over
2785
02:53:59.319 --> 02:54:03.959
the upcoming weeks and think, right, okay, I've got to
2786
02:54:04.000 --> 02:54:07.520
have some things that appeal to the PhDs in my congregation,
2787
02:54:07.600 --> 02:54:10.799
which I had. I've got to have something that appeals
2788
02:54:10.879 --> 02:54:13.680
to you know, the mums, the dads like you know,
2789
02:54:13.799 --> 02:54:16.920
you try and think who is here? The children, you know,
2790
02:54:17.239 --> 02:54:20.239
and something you can't do it in every homily. I
2791
02:54:20.319 --> 02:54:21.879
think it's a bad idea to have a homley that
2792
02:54:21.920 --> 02:54:23.799
tries to do all of that. But what you can
2793
02:54:23.879 --> 02:54:27.000
do is plan over a cycle to say, actually, do
2794
02:54:27.000 --> 02:54:29.239
you know what, Maybe this hombley is going to go
2795
02:54:29.280 --> 02:54:31.760
over the heads of some people and that's okay. Our
2796
02:54:31.840 --> 02:54:35.040
parish priest you know here does a really good job
2797
02:54:35.079 --> 02:54:37.159
of that. Actually, you're going to talk about some difficult words.
2798
02:54:37.200 --> 02:54:39.840
But sometimes when a new thing's invented in the like
2799
02:54:39.879 --> 02:54:43.040
when God invents a new thing in life, we don't
2800
02:54:43.079 --> 02:54:44.719
have any other words for it. So we're just going
2801
02:54:44.760 --> 02:54:47.559
to have to The church invents new words, and the
2802
02:54:47.639 --> 02:54:49.479
best thing is for us to try and explain what
2803
02:54:49.559 --> 02:54:53.559
those words mean. You know, It's an impossible job, and
2804
02:54:53.760 --> 02:54:56.319
that's worthy of a conversation. That's the sort of thing
2805
02:54:56.399 --> 02:54:59.920
parochial councils should be doing. You know, let's talk about
2806
02:55:00.040 --> 02:55:03.920
how we can try and hit as many people as possible.
2807
02:55:04.559 --> 02:55:06.719
And in a lot of ways. I would say that
2808
02:55:06.920 --> 02:55:10.239
the Church of Rome acts more like a Gnostic church
2809
02:55:10.360 --> 02:55:12.840
than than we do on our worst day. I mean,
2810
02:55:12.920 --> 02:55:15.920
they really do, because it's so so much of the
2811
02:55:16.000 --> 02:55:19.040
wisdom is is really held into the cloister. There is
2812
02:55:19.079 --> 02:55:21.600
an underlying attitude amongst many of them, at least when
2813
02:55:21.639 --> 02:55:25.360
I was involved in it many decades ago. But you know,
2814
02:55:25.440 --> 02:55:29.000
I do remember there was an underlying attitude that the
2815
02:55:29.040 --> 02:55:31.840
common people don't understand, will never understand that it's just
2816
02:55:31.879 --> 02:55:33.799
gonna be confusing. Just to keep it simple, keep it.
2817
02:55:34.520 --> 02:55:36.799
I'm going to withhold that. So we've got special stuff.
2818
02:55:37.040 --> 02:55:38.879
It could be that too, I mean, sometimes that is
2819
02:55:38.920 --> 02:55:43.959
the motive. I was shocked at how different, Yeah, I
2820
02:55:44.120 --> 02:55:45.959
was shocked at how different the church was from the
2821
02:55:46.040 --> 02:55:48.040
lens of the monastery versus what I was used to
2822
02:55:48.120 --> 02:55:50.079
in the diocese, in prison of the seminaris. It's a
2823
02:55:50.159 --> 02:55:54.319
very different experience. Even in the religious orders and the
2824
02:55:54.639 --> 02:55:57.239
you know that do active work. It was it was
2825
02:55:57.360 --> 02:56:00.600
still not like what it was in the Floisters, so
2826
02:56:01.159 --> 02:56:03.719
very different type of experience and it leads to a
2827
02:56:03.799 --> 02:56:08.239
lot of well different a different range of attitude. But
2828
02:56:08.680 --> 02:56:11.120
I want to say that a gift to her parish.
2829
02:56:11.159 --> 02:56:11.520
I really do.
2830
02:56:11.680 --> 02:56:13.879
I think so. I mean, Paula, you know, I mean
2831
02:56:14.399 --> 02:56:17.399
just in a way God calls us, God calls us
2832
02:56:17.680 --> 02:56:20.200
to go do strange things, and this might be yours.
2833
02:56:22.079 --> 02:56:23.760
But I want to thank you Paula for calling in.
2834
02:56:23.959 --> 02:56:27.920
Father Chris, thank you, April, thank you Jamie, thank you Moosh,
2835
02:56:28.000 --> 02:56:30.520
thank you also for calling in, and for all of
2836
02:56:30.600 --> 02:56:33.799
you that joined us this evening on the season finale
2837
02:56:33.920 --> 02:56:37.959
of Vestiges after Dark. It's been a wild ride this season,
2838
02:56:38.079 --> 02:56:41.719
right and next season we will, you know, try to
2839
02:56:41.799 --> 02:56:45.399
keep it as entertaining. April and Brandon will be working
2840
02:56:46.239 --> 02:56:49.200
to get some new guests for you in the fall.
2841
02:56:49.920 --> 02:56:53.319
This summer will have two specials as usual that will
2842
02:56:53.360 --> 02:56:56.040
be on one in July and one in August. The
2843
02:56:56.120 --> 02:56:58.680
next one, the next show, will air July twenty first,
2844
02:56:59.000 --> 02:57:02.319
where we will cover our next part of this theological
2845
02:57:02.399 --> 02:57:06.000
series on the independent Sacramental movement, and you'll understand a
2846
02:57:06.000 --> 02:57:08.280
little more about how validity works, what it means to
2847
02:57:08.360 --> 02:57:11.200
be valid but not lisicit, and why being list it
2848
02:57:11.280 --> 02:57:13.920
doesn't matter as much as being valid. That's really the
2849
02:57:14.000 --> 02:57:16.200
basis for the old Catholic Church, and you're going to
2850
02:57:16.280 --> 02:57:18.440
learn about that a lot. I'm probably more than you
2851
02:57:18.520 --> 02:57:20.600
want to know in July, so make sure you tune
2852
02:57:20.600 --> 02:57:22.479
into that. If you think I'm a fake bishop, if
2853
02:57:22.520 --> 02:57:25.680
you think Father Chris is a fake priest, well then
2854
02:57:25.719 --> 02:57:28.079
you need to tune in because you'll learn that you're
2855
02:57:28.120 --> 02:57:31.479
foolish and you're stupid. Will make you less stupid by
2856
02:57:31.520 --> 02:57:33.920
watching this show. Okay, so it doesn't mean that stupid
2857
02:57:33.959 --> 02:57:36.000
can't be fixed. I might insult you, I might call
2858
02:57:36.040 --> 02:57:38.319
you stupid, but I only say it with the understanding
2859
02:57:38.360 --> 02:57:42.959
that now that you know, you can do something about it. Okay, anyway,
2860
02:57:43.360 --> 02:57:46.000
that's what's coming up this summer. Okay. I want to
2861
02:57:46.079 --> 02:57:48.879
thank everyone again for being with us this entire season.
2862
02:57:49.239 --> 02:57:52.000
But until next time, I'll see you out there, and
2863
02:57:52.040 --> 02:57:53.399
the ether God bless all of you.
2864
02:57:53.559 --> 02:57:54.760
Stay safe. Every Buddy.
2865
02:58:47.200 --> 02:58:55.040
Studs shows.
2866
02:58:56.040 --> 02:59:05.440
Stubless is the US stiversial established, Standish is the West
2867
02:59:05.559 --> 02:59:07.479
of Telenson is the best