What Heated Rivalry Gets Right About Queer Love and Consent

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Skye, I have been deep diving into Heated Rivalry, me and about a zillion other people.
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I wonder, would you like to discuss a little bit about the Heated Rivalry phenomenon today?
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I think that'd be so much fun for us to get into. And kind of in my brain,
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I'm thinking of this as a little bit of a quickie, like an extra bonus thing
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that we can talk about with our friends who listen to us. Agreed. Okay.
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So what's your relationship with Heated Rivalry like?
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I'm going to have to just be completely
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honest, Martha, and say the erotic content is what had me at hello.
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Before I really felt like I knew the characters, before I felt endeared to them,
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before I feel like they were developed to the level that makes me get super interested,
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the erotic content definitely got my attention first.
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Should i admit that or should i pretend that's not the case i mean i think we
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might as well i'll admit that.
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So yeah i loved the sex positivity,
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i love the sheer hotness of it i love the direct gaze and owning of sexuality
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sensuality interest and pleasure that ilia
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kind of initiated in one of the early scenes.
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So all of that was just, you know, as a human being first and as a sex therapist
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and relationship therapist second. So that's how that all landed with me.
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I could go into more, but let's hear like, what was the first thing that captured your attention?
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Oh, there's so much about it that is really intriguing to me.
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It's super hot, which is interesting. It's just interesting.
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And I've been thinking about like, what is it that's so hot about it,
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And it has a peculiarly antidepressant effect on me as well.
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So I've watched the show, but I've also read all the books that are out at this point.
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And I do it because it feels nice, not because I want to get off.
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So that's really intriguing to me that somehow it's so beautiful to,
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be let into the world of regular people doing, well, and they're not regular
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people, but there are all different kinds of challenges that are depicted in various books.
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There are gender challenges, marginalization challenges, certainly coming out
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challenges, sexual challenges, sexual function and dysfunction challenges,
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mental health challenges.
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All kinds of stuff that I feel like culturally, at least in the USA,
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we're kind of scared of that stuff or it gets kind of weighty and heavy.
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And somehow it's not weighty. It's not heavy. It's just life.
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And also it's fucking hot.
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I find that so relieving. It's just, it's so relieving somehow.
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Well, it really normalizes that real life can be happening as it is for all of us.
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And you can still be cultivating a really amazing relationship and sexual experience,
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and that you don't have to be bound up totally in the identity of some of life's challenges.
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So there's a delimiting factor, like there's not this limitation that life is
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happening at the same time.
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Yeah, that's for sure You're exactly right. I think we have an idea that life
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has to somehow be easy or different or everything needs to be sorted.
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The challenges need to be set aside before we can just sink into pleasure or
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relational connection.
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And that's just not the case. So I find these characters are modeling consent very beautifully.
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And that's a part of normal life that I think can get very sticky for some people.
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Consent, hard to do, lots of rules. You have to be woke. They're like all kinds
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of sort of mystery around something that is just humanity being respectful of one another.
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And also it can be hot. So for all the hours that I spend trying to help therapists
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help their clients understand how to do consent and have it be hot,
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these guys just model it. It's just beautiful.
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You know, as sex ed goes, here's some erotic content that actually can stand in as sex education.
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Yes. And you know what? It's also so cool because it's modeled through different
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layers of communication.
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It's modeled through sometimes it's eye contact sometimes it's tuning into body
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language sometimes it is explicit words do you want this yes
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should we wait yes do you want this no but there's all of these ways to tune in to consent,
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and i think it demonstrates that there's not just one way to do it.
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And like you said, it doesn't have to be this clunky, weird, non-sexy thing.
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It can indeed be hot. It can be a part of the arousal in and of itself and really enjoyable to witness.
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And if it's really enjoyable to witness, perhaps really enjoyable to have in your normal life.
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Yes, exactly. Oh my God.
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I know I'm crazy today, aren't I? wouldn't it be amazing if consent was just
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an easy part of life it would be just incredible,
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I'm thinking of one scene where I think the phrase is just still good.
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It's just like, thank you so much for showing us how incredibly easy this is,
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because I think people worry that doing consent well involves an enormous amount
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of word processing business.
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And it's just a look or a gesture or a single word or just a kindness,
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a raised eyebrow. Are we still together in this?
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Or reading a look and saying, still, you know, like, was that a good wince or a bad wince?
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You know, I can feel my heart just like I can see myself seeing that scene.
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My heart like feels super tender as you, you know, bring that to my recollection.
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So yeah, I'm right there with you. Thank you for surfacing that consent piece.
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And even that's still good and how it doesn't have to be a written dissertation
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that stops everything. It doesn't have to be super, super serious and really
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stiff. Yeah, that's lovely indeed.
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Yeah, and you know, if the answer were I'm not so sure, I mean,
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every single time they back right off, but they stay connected.
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They stay connected emotionally.
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They back off, but they're still in it.
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Oh, gosh. Yeah, that is so good, so much can be derived from that possibility.
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Like we can open up our imaginations to that a pivot doesn't have to be horribly disappointing.
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It doesn't have to be bad. It isn't inherently bad. It's the meaning that we attach to these pivots.
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And we don't really see that there's a negative meaning. For sure.
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This whole series of books is bringing a lot of beautiful concepts about sex
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and sexuality into the conversation of the day and into the media in a really positive way.
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That's not some weird, overblown drama of people in, you know,
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conflict because they lack relationality or relational skills.
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Instead, we're seeing situational drama that people are handling skillfully,
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and sometimes they're muddling through it, but always with kindness and respect for one another.
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Do you, like me, find it just a little heartbreaking that this is so exciting?
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I would not have worded it that way, but I guess when I think about it,
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In some way, I am mirroring you because the celebration, and I'm going to go
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directly to the male-male love.
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Romance, the celebration of it, because this is not a new genre, right?
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Male-male romance novels has been around, and it's not the first time it's been depicted,
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but the fact that it is getting so much attention is wonderful,
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and don't we wish it was just celebrated all the time, that all of the love
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was celebrated all the time. I have a quick story.
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This conversation reminds me a little bit of when I had lived in Philadelphia
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for a very short time doing some educational coursework in an internship.
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And love was everywhere in all sorts of configurations.
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And when I came back to my hometown in the Midwest, I was like,
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It took me a while to realize what I was grieving.
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I didn't because I'd grown up in the Midwest, not a lot of exposure to the beautiful
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varieties and diversities of people who love each other.
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It took me a while to realize, what am I missing?
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What is this thing that I can't feel, touch, or see that I'm grieving?
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And it was finally like, I am not seeing any celebration of queer love or very
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few celebrations of queer love.
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And it didn't occur to me until I saw a couple, two gay men being affectionate.
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And I was like, that's the thing that I'm grieving without even knowing it.
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And so this conversation between the two of us really just takes me back to
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that moment where I had this awareness that, wow, this is not in my everyday
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life anymore. And it hurts me that it's not.
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Wow. I mean, that brings many queer stories from my own life forward.
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I've been a lesbian for many, many years. And I'm in a 30-plus year relationship
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with my partner, Joanne.
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And we rarely see same-sex relationships depicted.
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There's something so affirming to just seeing queer love right on a big screen
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and then accepted by so many people and people are so excited about it.
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This is really quite remarkable.
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Yeah, the celebration is very exciting. It's not tolerance.
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It is complete celebration. And that is, you know, that's wonderful.
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And, you know, I identify as heterosexual and maybe heterosexual-ish.
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And so it's just beautiful to be able to celebrate with the queer people that
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I love and care about. Sweet.
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So you and I were talking the other day and you mentioned that you have a friend
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or colleague who has done a dissertation about something adjacent to heated
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rivalry. Talk about that a little bit. What's that about?
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Yes. So a great, great friend of mine, one of my favorite humans in the whole
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world, Dr. Mems Wilder, did their dissertation on this male-male romance novel genre.
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Deep, deep dive analysis of the content of the literature, the content of the
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erotic scenes, the interplay with existing sexual scripts, the disruption
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of existing sexual scripts, the escapism that.
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One can enjoy as a result of engaging with these novels.
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I think they interviewed 50 readers of the genre.
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I think they interviewed like 25 authors of this genre.
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So, you know, that information can be found out there. The dissertation was
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something like women in love and analysis of male-male romance novels.
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And the women, it's like W-O in parentheses and then men.
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So just an exquisite exploration and deep dive into all the things that we're
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talking about and probably a lot more.
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And if I'm remembering correctly, there is some public access to that,
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unlike a lot of published dissertations.
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So go find it if you want to hear more of a deep academic dive about some of these themes.
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Cool. I love that. I really like it.
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So I think it would be interesting to...
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Just mention if you're somebody who struggles sometimes with consent or you'd like a good role model or
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you like visual erotic or written erotic content and you want some good role
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models where people explicitly are practicing consent, doing
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safer sex practices, being respectful, building relationality over time and all of that kind of thing
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that often is missing in our erotic content. You might want to check out Heated Rivalry.
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And I just want to say the author, Rachel Reed, is doing just an amazing, amazing job
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at bringing a bunch of stuff that people are scared of, not just into the public
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eye and the public discussion, but also like the hearts, minds,
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and imaginations of so many people.
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And I just am so grateful.
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It's high time. Here, here, here.
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And I'm going to add on to that and say if you are interested in modeling sexuality
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without shame, sexuality
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with passion, sexuality with pleasure, certainly those are all really good reasons to.
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Check out either the novel or watch the show and engage with this wonderful, wonderful content.
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Because despite the complexities of the situations that these characters are
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in, they are still able to celebrate their pleasure and passion and curate those moments.
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So that's one other really, really good reason to take a peek.
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All right. So rather than talking about, talking about, talking about the thing
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that everybody's talking about, just go check it out and we'll keep it short today.
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Okay. We'll see everybody next time.
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So, hey, everybody, you've just heard Martha and I discussing heated rivalry
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and all of the delicious themes around pleasure, freedom, consent, and more.
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If these are topics that you want some support sorting out for yourself,
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reach out to me. You can find me at www.workwithdrsky.com. I'd love to hear from you.
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And if you're a therapist and you'd like to learn more about how to help your
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clients understand themes of consent and pleasure and relationality,
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I train therapists all over the world to work with sex issues.
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You can find me at instituteforrelationalintimacy.com.