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00:00:15.420[upbeat music] Welcome to the Two to Twenty Podcast, where we're talking about how women can build, fund, and scale their businesses. I'm Katie Vander Ark, and we're here today with Munlan Zheng.
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00:00:31.520She's from Crossbeam VC, based out of New York City. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Um, I had such a great time meeting you. I know, I think we met last year, um, at New York Tech Week.
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00:00:41.280Um, and I had a great time sitting next to you at one of our dinners, and, um, have enjoyed keeping up with you. Um, and I just wanted to...
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00:00:46.660I thought you had such a interesting background, and so I'm excited to have you on the podcast today, so.
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00:01:01.220Um, I'd love to have you give a little bit of a background on yourself and kind of how you got into venture capital and landed at Crossbeam. Yeah. Sounds good. Um, thanks so much, Katie.
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00:01:14.140I also, I mean, had such a great time getting to know you at now, like, multiple Tech Weeks, I guess. Um, but yeah. I'm Munlan. I, uh, I guess a little bit about myself. I, I grew up moving around a lot in general.
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00:01:24.320I lived in places like Shanghai, Kuala Lumpur, Guangzhou, and my family now lives in Singapore. Mm-hmm. Um, but I moved to New York about, like, four, five years ago now.
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00:01:31.060Um, I joined Crossbeam Ventures a little over a year ago. Um, but before that, I had first started my career at Blackstone.
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00:01:38.440So I spent a couple years working in real estate private equity, and then also some time working in Blackstone's, like, spec- special situations team.
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00:01:51.320And then obviously now at Crossbeam Ventures, which, um, at a high level, we're a generalist venture fund primarily investing at the seed and pre-seed stage. Yeah. Super interesting.
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00:02:04.120Um, I, I know we related on your background in real estate, too, in our first conversations. Um, we'll kind of get into the connection between, I think, your kind of, like, past life and current life in VC.
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00:02:06.400[laughs] Um, but how...
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00:02:19.829Like, what were, what steps did you take or, like, what would you recommend for somebody that might be moving from a more, like, traditional, um, corporate finance, uh, background and trying to move into venture capital?
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00:02:24.320Do you have any examples of what you did or what you would maybe recommend for other folks?
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00:02:35.000Yeah, I mean, I think when I was exploring what it would, like, be, what would, what it would look like to work in venture, I think there's a lot, still a lot of different funds, right?
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00:02:40.079There's bigger funds that frankly are structured very similar, um, to, like, a Blackstone, right?
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00:02:51.020Hundreds of people, thousands of people maybe even, um, and, like, bigger teams versus, um, the fund I'm now at, we have a team of, like, five or six people basically.
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00:02:58.600And so I think beyond just thinking about, obviously I also used to work at a much later stage, and now I work at seed stage, right?
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00:03:04.080This is probably the earliest you can go, um, at a, like, earliest you can go at, like, an institutional level.
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00:03:11.560So thinking about what kind of working environment I was interested in, I think that was actually a very big first step, right?
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00:03:21.360Because I decided that, A, I wanted to be, uh, at a fund where I can really, everything I do has a very, very direct impact on the fund.
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00:03:32.160Um, and then I, you know, as one of the f- you know, first five people hired are based in, in, you know, contributing pretty significantly to the culture, work style of the fund.
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00:03:42.520Um, so that was something I really, really wanted to be a part of, and that really narrowed down, honestly, the field for myself pretty significantly. Um, and then also obviously thinking about the stage.
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00:03:50.820So I'm, you know, I was looking at companies that were very, very mature, very well established. I was looking at real estate, right, which is a totally different ballgame.
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00:04:01.360And now I'm looking at, you know, founders that, you know, are sometimes pre-product, pre-revenue. That entire process of how you think about an investment is actually just totally different.
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00:04:13.359So I think for people who are looking to make the shift, being a bit more specific about what the style of investing that they wanna do and the type of team that they wanna work on, I think, would be really, really helpful.
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00:04:27.300Yeah. Was kind of into my other question around, like, role, job, lifestyle. So, like, um, are you, like, working crazy? You're not working, like, s- investment banking hours, right?
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00:04:35.800[laughs] Like, you're working maybe less. I also assume, especially 'cause you're so early, like, for instance, you're probably far more, um, like...
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00:04:42.280It would've been, like, uh, customer-facing, but I guess more like, uh, founder-facing. Are you traveling more?
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00:04:47.070Like, how would you say that, like, any of your kind of, like, day-to-day life might be a little bit different too?
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00:05:00.940Yeah, so I think what's really awesome about venture, and sometimes kind of hard about venture is really you are never fully off, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. Um, right? So I can, I meet founders everywhere, right?
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00:05:10.860Like, I'll go to a friend's housewarming party, and I'll meet someone who is, who is starting a company, and I'm like, "You're smart. This idea is amazing. Like, let's talk." Um,
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00:05:23.370I mean, that's awesome because, like, you know, everything I do, meeting interesting people, um, doing interesting things, traveling, these can all, like, lead to, you know, better outcomes from a professional standpoint.
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00:05:25.780But then also it's very, very hard to turn off.
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00:05:39.780So sure, I don't think I'm necessarily pulling, you know, those, like, 14 to 16-hour days in the office anymore, uh, or, like, waiting up to wait for comments from my managing director, but I think it's, like, hard work in a very, very different way.
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00:05:50.300Um, but, you know, I think I, I kind of signed up for this, and I, I do love it. Um, it's very, very dynamic working environment. And yeah, so it's been, it's been good.
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00:05:57.820It's been a bit of a transition, but I would say still definitely working hard, but just, like, in a, in a slightly different style. Different manner. Sure.
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00:06:10.720Um, what was it about Crossbeam's investment thesis that attracted you to wanna work there? And maybe you could lay it out for us a little bit around what, uh, the investment thesis is.Yeah, for sure.
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00:06:17.580So, um, well, I would say [laughs] first, we're, we're a very generalist fund. So I mean, like, if, if it's a good company, like, we wanna see it.
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00:06:32.540Um, but, uh, I think historically, uh, some spaces that we've invested in a lot have included things like fintech, legal tech, some media, um, different kinds of benefits, um, you know, and, and many, many other sectors.
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00:06:35.540I think I knew I wanted to be a generalist.
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00:06:49.640Um, you know, the benefit of being a generalist is that you can really be flexible about how you apply key takeaways from one business to maybe even another sector or another thesis, and you can be kind of opportunistic, um, as, like, markets, you know, shift.
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00:07:01.770Mm-hmm. Um, we have a sister fund called CoVenture that has teams that do asset-backed lending and hybrid strategies as well. Um, so then as, like, a fund, collectively, we have a lot of, like, flexibility,
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00:07:11.420um, and ability to sort of be dynamic across the capital stack, and, like, looking at different opportunities, which I think is super cool. So I think my background obviously is a little bit more traditional finance.
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00:07:18.240I have a little bit more of a structured background as well. And I think when I came to this team and they... I felt like they could speak my language.
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00:07:30.020And the way, um, that my team thinks about their investments, I think, was a way that I really, really resonated with. And, like, to my earlier point, right, we are a small team, and I was looking for small teams.
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00:07:37.820And I think when you're looking for a small team, you really want, really wanna feel like the deals being done and the way people are thinking about it also resonate with you.
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00:07:46.860And so for me, it just, like, felt like a very, very natural fit in that sense. Yeah. No, it sounds like a great fit. I feel like I would like that working environment, too. It's...
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00:07:57.010I also like kind of like being a generalist as well, com- um- Yeah. [laughs] I mean, sometimes being a generalist is, like, I think quite challenging, right? This is a market that moves really, really fast. Mm-hmm.
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00:08:07.100And sometimes, you know, if you just know a space really well, you can react really fast. Versus I feel like, um, you know, I'm never... I- I'm kind of jack of all trades, like master of none a little bit sometimes.
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00:08:12.100But, um, you know, what's fun instead is you just, like, kind of keep learning all the time. Yeah.
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00:08:19.779To that point exactly, I guess my next question was gonna be around what are some of the lessons learned from some of your early investments?
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00:08:26.300Um, I don't know if you have any interesting ones, especially if you had to, like, dig into an industry that maybe you didn't even know about.
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00:08:37.180So yeah, just lessons learned around some of your kind of earlier investments. Yeah, I mean, I mean, so I think venture is, like, such a long feedback loop industry, right?
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00:08:49.260So I think it's really, really hard to tell, um, maybe, you know, even within the next five or 10 years, whether or not any decisions that I've made have been good, which is kind of crazy.
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00:09:05.120Um, so I actually think my, my... I guess, like, my now my first year in venture, the biggest takeaway here is that you just have to build conviction independent of, um, a ton of very, very solid information. Mm-hmm.
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00:09:17.100And I think figuring out what are, like, the important questions to ask, um, versus just being like, "Give me as much information as possible," I think that's been, um, the real challenge and, like, what I've learned the most.
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00:09:27.060Um, I would say, like, as an example, uh, I... One of the first sectors that I ended up spending a lot of time in in my first few months in venture was in climate. And,
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00:09:32.860um, obviously, like, there's a lot of people who are... There are a ton of, like, climate-focused funds.
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00:09:42.580There are people who specialize in energy, people who specialize in carbon capture, and there's amazing technologies being built in this space. And I think to me that was...
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00:09:56.180I think the biggest thing of, I've learned from here is, like, how to leverage other investors, other experts in my network to really figure out how to make a team within, I guess, like, a particular thesis that I'm exploring.
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00:10:08.780Mm-hmm. Um, and how to learn something really fast. I think that's probably the biggest takeaway. It sounds kind of, I would say, a little cheesy almost. Um- No... but that is, like, the main skill. You're...
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00:10:12.240To me, it sounds kind of like you're having to go back.
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00:10:23.080It reminds me of when I was, um, in my master's program, and I was having to basically, like, rethink a lot of the way that I was studying several different things, and I had to have, like, advisors on every kind of part of it.
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00:10:33.900Yeah. It feels like that's sort of the same model of if we're gonna go down a certain [laughs] rabbit hole, then we have to kind of, uh, do kind of the Q&A across the industry and experts- Yeah... and other investors.
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00:10:34.360It totally makes sense.
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00:10:48.179I mean, like, I can, I can go and read as many things as I want, maybe even attend a few panels and events and whatever, but my knowledge and expertise is never going to surpass someone who's been in the industry for decades.
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00:10:54.210Um, so I think it's just really [laughs] important to be really, really humble, honestly. Mm-hmm.
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00:11:02.560Um, I think I, you know, I, I came from, you know, uh, some pretty traditional financial ins- institutions where people, you know, are really...
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00:11:09.080You get a lot of resources, and your, you know, your peers are really sharp and, like, know the space as well. And I think in venture, you...
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00:11:19.300Generally, most funds are a lot smaller, so you don't necessarily have the same support network. So you have to figure out how to, how to form that, you know, advisor panel, I guess- Mm-hmm... um, for yourself. Yeah.
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00:11:22.520No, it's super smart. Makes sense, too. Um,
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00:11:36.980my kind of follow-up question to that is around, since you are so early in the, the investment process, so you're kind of the early stages of institutional capital, um, a lot of it is on founders.
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00:11:49.220So you're- Yeah, absolutely... essentially backing the founders. And so maybe what are some of the things that you have identified to be either, like, strong qualities or traits of founders?
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00:11:57.700Or, like, what, what has it been that's made you wanna back some of the founders you guys have funded this year? So I think we're always looking for...
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00:12:06.360There's, like, simultaneously a million things we're looking for, but then also it really boils down to, like, is this the right person? And, um,
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00:12:18.060but I think one thing, maybe, like, one thing that really does come top of mind is, like, a founder's ability to sort of, like, move really fast and execute, um, with, you know, limited information.
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00:12:28.308And I think when you-... uh, that, that really manifests in, frankly, a lot of different ways. But I think sometimes it can be literally as simple as, like, does the founder respond to emails really fast?
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00:12:35.848Like, if I send times to get things scheduled, like, is the founder, like, open to scheduling something on the weekend if there's literally no other time?
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00:12:45.938I think it's all about just, I think these little interactions can really show, like, how, how serious they are, are they taking this, like, how quickly are they moving?
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00:12:54.268And in the early days of a company, right, sometimes company [laughs] you know, pre-seed companies, a lot of the time there's, like, no real moat. Um, right?
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00:13:03.608So the only big differentiator here is, like, can this founder really, really execute? Can the founder, you know, really hustle here? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It makes sense.
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00:13:16.148Um, do you, do you think at all about, um, founder market fit at all, or are you, like, slightly less concerned around previous experience and more so just, like, that kind of tenacity that they might have?
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00:13:22.598I think if there's founder market fit, amazing, right? Like, that, I think that's, like, the added bonus. Mm-hmm.
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00:13:30.688But there's obviously been so many founders that have been started by people right out of college, uh, or outsiders to the industry.
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00:13:42.148Um, so I would say yes, like, founder market fit, I think means a very, very different thing, um, from situation to situation. I think it doesn't really make sense...
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00:13:50.028I think there are some industries, right, that have really, really long sale cycles, for example, or are very, very traditional and hard to break in.
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00:14:01.688Like, I'm thinking about things like construction or defense, um, or, you know, things like that, where maybe having a little bit more of background or at least having the right panel of advisors makes a lot more sense.
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00:14:13.928Um, but I'm not looking for, like, a particular person. Like, I don't need someone who's had, you know, decades of experience. Like, I think the number one thing is, um, this, this hustle that I'm talking about almost.
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00:14:25.678Yeah. Um, but yeah. Yeah, no, it makes sense. Um, kind of getting into topical things as well, just addressing AI. So are you guys- Yeah...
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00:14:32.268I assume, kind of based on what you g- you're telling me, is AI just sort of across your entire portfolio?
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00:14:41.228I- it doesn't sound like you guys have an AI specific thesis, and so I assume it's more, like, how are you augmenting or using it, or what, what are your thoughts on- Yeah, absolutely...
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00:14:49.828I mean, I think right now, at least from what I can see, almost every company is an AI company. Yeah. [laughs] Um, and, like, I, I just think...
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00:14:59.008I, I don't think our investment thesis has fundamentally shifted in any way because of AI. To me, I think of it almost as, like, it's just another tool.
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00:15:07.948A- and I mean, uh, to, to, not to be too extreme, but it's almost like saying your business uses computers. Like, sure. Like, you should be- Mm-hmm... you should be thinking about it.
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00:15:18.748Um, I think what is really interesting, the way... Uh, sorry, the interesting way to think about AI is that I would view it as a sort of dislocation in the market today.
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00:15:30.248Um, sort of like a s- uh, you know, a, a, a blip that is allowing a lot of newcomers to potentially disrupt, um, incumbents, like, break into legacy industries.
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00:15:40.688Um, you know, there's, like, some industries that rely on very manual processes. This is where AI comes in, and I, I think there's huge value in that. But I think what I'm always looking for is...
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00:15:54.448I'm, I'm looking at these businesses that are like, you know, X, X task with AI or building a co-pilot for Y industry or whatever, but what I'm really looking for is, like, the why now needs to be super clear, right?
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00:16:05.348What are you able to do today that you weren't able to do yesterday with AI? And then the second one is, what is the moat that is going to be here in, let's say, not, maybe not even five years.
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00:16:13.128At this rate of which this dev- technology is developing and being adopted- Mm-hmm... like, this technol- technological gap is gonna close really, really quickly.
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00:16:24.768So what's, what's the compounding moat that you're relying on here? And, like, what makes this business defensible down the line when, you know, everyone knows how to use ChatGPT, and everyone knows how to use AI agents?
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00:16:31.888What makes this, like, stand the test of time? Yeah. No, that makes total sense. And I, I totally agree. I mean, at some...
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00:16:42.728at, at this point, you're, if you're building a tech company, you're building an AI company, [laughs] so- Yeah... agree with that. Um, I wanted to get into, now that you...
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00:16:50.708So you said you had been with, uh, Crossbeam for about a year? Just, just over a year? A little over a year, yeah. Wow. About a month. Almost on the dot. Congrats on the anniversary. [laughs] Thank you.
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00:17:05.308Um, now that you've kind of moved into this position, how are you thinking about personal development as an investor? So, like, are you doing anything, um, learning from people? Are you attending any conferences?
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00:17:21.448Like, what are you doing to develop yourself as a, a VC? Yeah, I think... I guess, like, to, to my point earlier, right, this is an industry where almost everything I do here makes me also just a better person, right?
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00:17:29.638Like, I'm meeting, meeting new people constantly. I'm doing interesting things constantly. I'm, like, attending, like, Climate Week I think was, like, two weeks ago, um, in New York City.
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00:17:33.428And, you know, I went to a bunch of, uh, deep tech pitches.
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00:17:44.608Not be- Like, uh, realistically, you know, I'm not gonna quite get there on a ton of super experimental te- uh, experimental technology, but just, like, really cool to see what spaces people are building in.
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00:17:53.188And I think that's just, like, personal development, right? Like, understanding- Mm-hmm... um, new technology and, like, be- keeping sharp on, like, what's the latest- Yeah... um, is constant.
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00:18:03.188I also think, I, I think New York has an incredible VC community, and so a lot of the friendships I've made here through this job over the last year have been really key.
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00:18:11.318I think a lot, especially a lot of the female friendships, honestly. Um, there's some really, really awesome groups here. Um, just to shout out a couple, I guess. Mm-hmm.
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00:18:19.628There's, like, Capital Collective and, like, this other group, uh, that called Capital Supper Club that hosts, like, monthly dinners and things like that, and there's so many more.
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00:18:27.488Um, and I think these are just awesome communities of women to be around, and I think it's-...
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00:18:40.748important to surround yourself with other people who are ambitious and smart and really excited about things, um, because that keeps you, you know, feeling the same way, and it, it encourages you to kinda continue challenging yourself, um, and having these conversations.
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00:18:54.908So yeah, [laughs] I think this is just, like, an industry that, you know, I think I'm really, really lucky to be a part of, that allows me to just be surrounded by just really passionate founders, operators, other investors, um, every day.
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00:19:05.258And, you know, hopefully I get better, and I, I wanna be, make sure I'm, you know, worthy of especially the founders that we support, you know, on an everyday basis. Yeah, of course. I, I totally agree.
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00:19:16.138I mean, this is kind of the whole premise around Two Twenty, right? I, I didn't know anybody in the venture space, really. I mean, I had, like, a previous life, but I would- it was, like, a decade prior in tech. Yeah.
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00:19:23.088And that's really where... And especially in LA. LA, you know, I think, I love LA. I'm very, you know, I'm a LA stan, but I, [laughs]
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00:19:29.598I am trying to, you know, help build up the ecosystem here the same way that I think- Yeah... it's thriving in New York.
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00:19:35.718Like, the New York tech scene is- I mean, I've met quite a few people from the LA ecosystem, and I also think it's, like, quite close-knit.
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00:19:46.608I think the benefit of a smaller ecosystem is that you generally meet everyone in it. People feel more invested in it. Yeah. Um, so everyone I've met from LA has been super nice, and I keep meaning to come out.
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00:19:54.648And, like, you know, maybe when the weather gets really horrible in New York, like, you'll catch me out there this winter. [laughs] Um- The next four months... so that's, that's the idea. Yeah. Yeah.
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00:20:05.988You gotta, you gotta come hang out with us. [laughs] Absolutely. [laughs] Um, I maybe just have, like, one or two more questions, but I... Kind of around that is, um, something I was thinking about.
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00:20:17.668I recently started mentoring, and one of the things that I thought about, um, and I, and I talked about this on one of my previous podcasts too, but the idea of, um, a personal board of directors.
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00:20:27.508So one of the women I talk to, I love this idea, was around, like, I started mentoring, but I also think, you know, having folks that I'm looking up to and then being able to share that.
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00:20:34.008Like, I'm, I'm learning kind of, like, both ways. Um, and that's sort of, like, on a personal level and a professional level.
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00:20:40.158So I've just been kind of thinking more around, like, a personal board of, of advisors or personal- Yeah... board of directors.
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00:20:52.728And I wonder if you have any, like, thoughts around that, or if you've been thinking about, um, other particular folks that you reach out to regularly, quarterly, or anything like that to kind of keep you, [laughs]
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00:21:03.088uh, you know, moving along, progressing. Yeah. Um, first of all, I just wanna say I love the phrase personal board of ad- advisors. It's, like, such a nice way to think about, you know...
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00:21:13.388'Cause it, 'cause to some extent, right, we're all investing in ourselves- Mm-hmm... in the long run, so you should have the right, you know, board of advisors around your investments. So I, I kind of love that. Um, so
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00:21:21.968I think, ob- obviously, like, this is, like, kinda cheesy, but- Mm... the first people I always turn to with pretty much anything is my parents still. Mm-hmm.
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00:21:33.208Um, I, you know, I think they just know me best, and they understand the way I react to certain things, the way I think about, you know, certain decisions- Mm... or certain situations. Mm-hmm. Um, but I also think...
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00:21:45.048So I, I think there's a lot of, obviously, my own team that I work with, people I've worked with, um, in my previous role. They obviously continue to be, like, huge parts of my life. But I would say what's actually been
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00:21:55.177surprisingly very, very valuable is actually having friends, um, who are not in the same industry as me, friends who are not in finance, friends who aren't in tech.
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00:22:06.948Um, because to some- sometimes I feel like this is a bit of a crazy industry. Like, I'll be... I'll talk to someone, I'll be like, "This person said this thing to me. Like, I felt a little weird about it," you know?
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00:22:16.148Mm-hmm. And then if they aren't deeply immersed in the exact same environment, they'll turn to me and be like, "Yeah, that was, that is a super weird thing to say, and you are totally valid in feeling that way."
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00:22:21.748And I sometimes you just, like, kinda need that clarity of, like, oh, okay, like, that, that was a bit odd.
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00:22:33.948Um, so, and I think having [laughs] that visibility outside of this, this bubble that we all work in, right, in tech, in startups- Mm-hmm... um, in investing, um, [clears throat] excuse me.
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00:22:48.068Um, I think it's important to have people who know you and h- can have a perspective about your life, um, but not be, like, deeply invested in it in the same way that- Yeah... everyone else is, if that makes sense.
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00:22:56.928Totally. Totally agree. I... Why I like living in LA too is everybody, all of my friends have very different backgrounds and careers.
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00:23:09.988Um, but what I'd say is, like, the common theme is that we're generally, like, all very motivated, um, and are, you know, thriving in kind of our own different careers. But it is nice.
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00:23:14.548It kinda gives you, like, a reality check of- Yeah... um, you know. I think what...
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00:23:27.988I think it's almost, I think the best way to maybe frame it is that you want your mentors or your f- your friends, your circles who are advising you, uh, to sh- to share your values, but not necessarily need to share your exact experiences.
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00:23:37.988Um- Makes sense... obviously, I think it'd be amazing to, to say, oh, like, so and so, like, runs her own fund and, like, you know, is giving me advice. Amazing.
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00:23:48.668But the reality is, like, I think a lot of times the best advice comes from just people who understand you and, like, your, your value system. Yeah. I love that. I think that's, that's so accurate.
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00:23:52.268Um, kinda the last one is kinda open.
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00:24:07.308I just wonder if you have any thoughts or advice for either, you know, a lot of, like, what we talk about at the dinners that we host is also around, like, uh, do you have advice for early stage founders, folks that might be trying to break into VC?
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00:24:12.688Any thoughts that you might have, especially with, like, the way that the market has been going lately. I've also- Yeah...
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00:24:18.878just been thinking about, um, you know, when I started my company two years ago, it's a very different place already.
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00:24:28.268So I don't know if any of that plays into it, but yeah, just any kind of last thoughts around kind of breaking into startups or venture. Yeah.
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00:24:38.220I mean-I think regardless of whether or not you are, whether you're a founder or if you're an investor, but I think overall the space has extremely long feedback loops, right?
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00:24:48.740So you don't really know, you know, there are incredible companies that everyone thinks is, like, you know, the, uh, an absolute gem and then, you know, suddenly there's a downturn.
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00:24:56.980Or there are companies that no one is really betting on that, you know, a couple years down the line ends up breaking out and is, like, an absolute star. These things always happen.
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00:25:07.529So I think the only real thing here, right, is just focus on process. Um, so being... And I, I think that's very much, like, how I like to think about it, right?
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00:25:17.160There's sometimes, like, randomly deals get super, super hot, and suddenly the valuation is outside of the scope in which I'm comfortable with. That's out of my control. Mm-hmm. Um, right?
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00:25:23.920But what is within my control is, like, my relationship to the founder, the diligence, and the work that I do, and the quality of the work that I do.
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00:25:34.819So I think it's just important to not get swept up in short-term, this is the trend, or this is, this is, you know, I, I am afraid of missing out on this thing or another. Mm-hmm.
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00:25:43.580Um, and really focus on, like, this is the work I'm doing, and these are the relationships I'm building. And the hope here, obviously, is that this is a long game, right?
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00:25:56.360So in the long run, you will end up better having done the work, having done the right process. Um, and I think that holds true for founders as well. Um, I think I always feel for founders.
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00:26:05.480It's, there's sometimes just, like, sentiments around the venture community, certain sectors people prefer, certain sectors people don't at different times.
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00:26:09.100Um, it's very much outside of people, outside of a founder's control, right?
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00:26:24.660Like, what they can do is to build the best nesses- best business that they can build, and to, you know, keep their head down and do, like, the best work possible, and, and, uh, trust sort of that over time, like, the, you know, the, their work will speak for themselves.
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00:26:37.900Yeah. No, that's great advice. Um, well, good. It was so fun to have you on the pod. Um, I'm hoping we can host you in LA soon. I would love that, yeah.
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00:26:49.880And if not, I'm always in New York, so one way or the other I'm sure we'll, we'll be hanging out soon. Perfect. Sounds good. Um, can't wait to see you in person soon. Okay. [upbeat music]
