Four psychologists talking about Christmas

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Okay, Hello. So welcome to two old psychologists talking
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about stuff. Good morning, Ray. Good morning, Rich.
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And a bright winter's morning. It is indeed. Feels a little
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bit Christmassy, don't you think? Christmassy. That's an interesting
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observation. So in the spirit, we've invited
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a couple of friends along, you know, more the merrier and all that.
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So, yeah, in a special edition we've got four psychologists
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talking about Christmas. So I guess we should ask them to say hello.
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Let's start with Rachel. Hello. Really lovely to be here
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with you both. Quite excited to be seeing your faces
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and chatting with you. Well, thank you for joining us at our Christmas
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special. So do you want to say a little bit about yourself, Rachel? Just tell
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the audience kind of who you are and what you're about? Yeah, sure. I work
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as a consultant clinical psychologist in the NHS full
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time. I work in Worcestershire mental health services
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and I cover services for people
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in acute distress is the main kind of take home and
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rehab services as well, but all inpatient or urgent
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care. Okay, thank you. So that's Dr. Rachel Black. That's right.
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People can stalk you then on the Internet. Yes. So thank you,
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Rachel. Thanks for joining us. And dawn, do you want to say hello?
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Hi. Thanks for the invite to the party. You're most welcome.
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So it'd be good if you could maybe say a few words about yourself too.
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Okay, absolutely. So my name's Dawn Johnson and
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I work as a clinical psychologist. I'm now in private practise,
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so offering therapy and supervision and training
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using ACT predominantly and other contextual behavioural sciences
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as well. Thank you, Dawn. So we should probably declare,
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you know, there's a bit of a. There's a bit of interest here, isn't there,
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in terms of us all being friends? We've kind of known each other for probably,
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I don't know, what do you think best part of 10
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years? I think that's a fair guess. Let's call it 10 years.
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Bound together by our interest in all things contextual,
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behavioural science and acceptance and commitment therapy. So a bit of a selected bunch.
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It would be unfair to sort of claim that we're a representative sample
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of psychologists. So it's probably just best to disclose that right
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now. Anyway. Christmas then, I guess this is
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one of those things that people have a range of opinion on.
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You know, there's this sort of view of it as being this wonderful,
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joyous, happy time and as a festival. I think
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it sort of sticks in the public consciousness much more than lots of
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other things. I mean, this may Be something to talk about, like, why is Christmas
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a bit more popular than Easter, for example, why is Halloween
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seemingly becoming more interesting than Easter? There's lots of things that
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we could talk about, but let's start with your sort of position statement on Christmas.
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So, Ray, I'm going to start with you. What does Christmas mean to you?
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Where do you stand on it? I gotta admit, I rather
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like Christmas. I kind of like the
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idea that sort of in the middle of winter when
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the nights are longest, there's a
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kind of little episode of time where some people, if they're
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lucky, get the chance to take a little bit of time out.
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And some people, if they're lucky, get the chance to
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hang out with family and friends and find some ways of
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expressing warmth and emotion towards each other and sharing a bit of
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time together. When it works well in
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that way, I think that can be a pretty healthy thing. Okay,
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Rachel, anything you want to add? Where do you stand on Christmas? I mean,
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I like any kind of ritual that gets people together, I guess
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I think some of the issues with Christmas, as with other
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holidays, is that there's an expectation, isn't there, of how you
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do it? And for me, it's more about the principles
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of sharing time with other people, whoever that
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might be, or giving people the opportunity to have some company or.
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When Ray was describing it, I imagine sort of almost like a light in the
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darkness. A time when you come together and there's some
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sort of light that kind of can
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kind of help us to kind of punctuate winter.
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I guess that's how I see it. And that could be
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anything. But I guess having something that everybody knows is at the same
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time can be really helpful because then we have a way of
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kind of structuring it and coming together. It is really difficult
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for some people. And that's always in my mind, I guess. So it's
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always there. But it doesn't take away, I think, for me,
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from the benefits that can be drawn. Okay, thank you.
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Yeah, very connecting. And it's a kind of. I like the idea
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of punctuation. There's a kind of moment here where
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we all get together and. Yeah, I think you probably
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bringing up something that we're gonna come back to. I imagine that it's
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not all roses in the garden for everybody at this time of year.
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Thank you, Dawn. Now, I know that you are the
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listeners can't see this, but I can see you
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already bedecked in a bit of a Christmassy garb there.
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And this, I think, betrays you. Are kind
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of a pretty Christmassy person. Right. I think the simple answer to this
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is I love Christmas
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and all things Christmassy from very early in
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the year. So I don't do early decorations or
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even send my cards out particularly early.
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And I feel that, like,
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internal, festive spirit very early in the year and
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get very excited about things that are going to happen in the darker seasons
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and what's going to bring that light that other people have
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talked about. I think what's really interesting. So, I mean, that's a very simplistic
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answer. I do love Christmas, and I feel like I'm
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gonna steal this from you, Rich. But, you know, the idea of values
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and pain, you know that I think Rachel's already alluded
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to lots of expectations around that particular time
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of year. And there's years in my life where
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life hasn't been easy or how I may have wanted
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it to be. And, you know, in those times,
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it's really hard. It feels really dark. Because as
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much as you love something, you're gonna experience the pain
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of that. Right. I think sometimes Christmas also,
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for me personally, as well as for lots and lots of
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people, is a time that can be really painful and really
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difficult. I suppose this is where act really helps me.
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Cause both can be true. You know, I think I hold onto
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my narrative of I just love Christmas and I
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can't help but smile when I say it. And it's absolutely
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true that there are lots of Christmases that have been sad or
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had elements of sadness, and it isn't a picture of
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perfection at all. So I think both are true.
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Thank you for stealing my values and pain line. It saves me the bother.
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I feel like I'm contractually obligated to say that at least once a day.
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We sort of talk there about our own views of it.
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And, you know, for every X Factor panel,
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there's gotta be a Simon Cowell. For every Christmas, there's gotta
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be a Grinch. Right? So it feels like, you know, that falls to me.
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So I've kind of struggled with Christmas, I think, for more
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or less, as long as I can remember. I think maybe I kind of
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liked it when I was a kid. And then I find it a bit difficult.
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I think I notice everybody else getting really up for it,
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and I sort of feel like I should be up for it, too,
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and sort of struggling a bit to do that.
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And then I feel a bit guilty that I'm not as up for it as
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I sort of, like, you know, finger quotes ought to be.
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And I don't quite know why that is. I find the rampant
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commercialization of Christmas quite hard. And I
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find the like Christmassy vibe of just,
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you know, you can't go into the shops without hearing,
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you know, Christmas music from like mid November onwards.
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That said, I do often, obviously I really like getting
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together and I love the sort of connection of it and I love the joy
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of giving presents.
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So let's keep it light, shall we? For a minute, let's talk about our favourite
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bits. Right, so before they let me steal the show, what's the best
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bit about Christmas? I like the Christmas music.
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I'm just gonna say that, seeing as you've just mentioned it as something that
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brings you pain. I think for me it's the
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things that anchor me to that inner joy
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that dawn was describing. So anything that kind of triggers
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that automatic response in my body that has nothing to do
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with thinking or anything too academic or
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kind of planned, you know, it's just a physical response in my
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body. Twinkly lights and Christmas
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music. Also, I can usually hear the lyrics because it's a
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bit like hymns, isn't it? It's like I can hear the lyrics in those sorts
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of songs, which is something which is quite rare for me.
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I always get the lyrics wrong to any kind of popular music
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type arrangement. So I really like those
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things. And obviously the joy of seeing joy
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in other people is part of that too. Why do you think you remember the
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words of hymns and Christmas songs? Because they're easy
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to hear. It's the hearing I can't hear.
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It's like my processing ability. I don't have a good processing ability
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when it comes to things like that. So, I mean, I can't hear all of
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them. I probably get them wrong too, but I have less of that anxious response
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to everyone else is singing the right lyrics and I'm not. And actually I
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also don't care if I sing them wrong. You know, I'm sort of. It's just
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sing along. Do you think they're just indelibly etched on your brain
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because you hear them so much? Yeah. Like on a loop,
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year after year. Yeah. I mean, saying that. I know I actually used to get
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songs wrong from when I was a kid. You know, there were all sorts of
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things that I didn't understand the meaning and I got it completely
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wrong. But it doesn't seem to matter as much. Cause it's just part like you
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say, it's indelibly etched on your experience.
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Okay, so given the nature of this podcast, there's no way we
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would have the clearances to play any music. But if you had to name
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one Christmas song, you know, your desert island Christmas
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song, what would it be? Ray? Oh, that is a good question.
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I had this conversation very recently with somebody, so the way
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that was phrased, which I think this is probably even better, right, is like,
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what's your favourite Christmas hymn? And what's your favourite Christmas song?
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So I want to go, I'll rise to that challenge just because I've rehearsed it
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already. Oh, come all you faithful. You know,
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classic, brilliant harmonies in the last verse.
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And probably Fairy Tale in New York, you know, obvious,
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predictable choice. Probably. But, you know, that's a winner, isn't it?
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Rachel, what would you say? You raised the topic. Yeah,
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I really struggled to identify number one.
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Back to my issue with music. I don't know the
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name of anything. I suppose I probably do better with Chris because it's
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in the lyrics, isn't it? Yeah. And in terms of a hymn, I wouldn't be
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able to sort of probably, unless you gave me a list, then I could probably
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pick one, if that makes sense. But I also love it when
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I hear Fairy Tale of New York. And it is a really kind of
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bog standard answer in a way, isn't it? But I guess also
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on where I work, one of my colleagues,
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Tim, he's absolutely brilliant at bringing music into
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our units. And every Christmas we
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do like a Christmas song singing thing,
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I guess you could say like a carol concert, but it's not quite like that.
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We do it on some of the wards and the rehab wards and we
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sing sort of old pop songs that relate to Christmas
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and we always sing that one. Yeah. So that's great fun. Dawn, what you got?
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I was really taken back to my childhood. I've still got a
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book that I had when I was, I don't know, maybe six.
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And it's in the Christmas box, one of the many Christmas boxes.
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And I think for that reason I'm gonna say my favourite
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hymn would be O Little Town of Bethlehem, because I just remember
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sitting all Christmas. I took it everywhere I went
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with me and I remember sitting just. And there were the words of the songs,
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but it just had a really lovely picture and it was the most Christmassy
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scene. And I remember just sitting on my own for a little while
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in all the chaos of family and people playing with toys.
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And I like the song anyway, but it was just that memory that really
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popped into my head just then when you asked the question.
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So I think that would be my favourite hymn. For that reason.
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And I really want to think of something else. I think Fairytale of New York
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is now going to be like everybody's. I really want to think of something
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else. I suppose when. If I think about Christmas songs, and I know I'm going
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off topic a little bit, but if I think about Christmas songs, one of
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the things that my mum used to do was when
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we were getting ready for school, when we were children in December,
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she would put on the Christmas album. It was vinyl
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and so, you know, some of them were a bit more jump aroundy, like as
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a child, and some of them were Christmas carols.
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Having Christmas music in the background, I think,
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is just something that's. It doesn't have to be a specific
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thing and I'm not that fussy. It's more the feeling of it
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and the kind of warmth that it brings, I think. So that's
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what popped into my head when you asked that question. So it kind of does
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sound like there's quite a Pavlovian thing, isn't it? You know,
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like the specific hymn, there may be literal
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qualities of the harmonies, the arrangement and all of that,
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that we enjoy all the cleverness of the word saying Fairy
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tale of New York. And there's a whole big chunk that's just Pavlovian,
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isn't it? That it's. That stimulus was
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paired with times that, for one reason or another, felt good.
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And certainly for me, you know, if I was choosing a pop song, it would
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probably be back to Slade. Merry Christmas, everyone with those leather
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lungs, Noddy holder screaming It's Christmas 1973.
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You know, I would have been sort of eight or nine at
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the time, which is kind of like peak enjoying Christmas time,
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isn't it? And that was the. You know, that time
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you had quite kind of radical sound. I've had conversations
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with people whether this is a hymn or not, because it's a. It's like a
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choral piece that gets performed a lot, but it's not one where the. Where the
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congregation's encouraged to join in because it's too complicated.
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There's a piece called the Shepherd's Farewell,
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which, even if you don't know the name of it, if I played it now,
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I'm sure folks would recognise. And going back slightly to something Rachel
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said and Dawn, I think you echoed it. It's kind of all about the vibe,
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you know, this is very beautiful, quite wistful piece of
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music that just adds to the sort of sensory quality with
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the twinkly lights and everything sort of looking
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different. You know, all those. All the sensory stimulus
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being a little bit different, the sounds being different, maybe the smells being different because
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you've got, you know, sort of Christmassy smells hanging around.
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So, yeah, for me, that's kind of one of those. If I'm late at night,
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lights are down, hearing that piece of music, that makes me feel, oh,
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wow, this is Christmas. You've ruined it. I thought we were going for
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a clean sweep of Fairy Tale of New York and then you've come up with
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something that no one's ever heard of. What? Merry Christmas, everyone. The shepherd
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thing. Oh, the shepherd thing. The shepherd's farewell.
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I'm gonna have to Google it, search it. I think you've hit the nail on
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the head there, though, Ray. For me, in bringing Pavlov up into
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this, you know, I think for me, and that's why I
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wasn't very good at naming a song or as I was thinking and as
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you were all talking, you know, I also thought of Slade,
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but mainly because that's one of the ones we sing every year, you know,
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when we go around the wards. And so it sort of sticks in my mind
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and maybe we will have all heard of the one that you've come up if
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you. If you play it. But as dawn was talking about Little Town of
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Bethlehem, that just brought up all those memories. And I think it's those
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quieter, more kind of, I dunno, like Midnight Mass.
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Everything's sort of getting to that point where you're just about to go to bed
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and have your stocking at the end of the bed and, you know, there's that
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bit as well. And there are lots of different sensory experiences. I'm just
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one of Pavlov's dogs, let's put it that way, when it comes.
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To Christmas, dawn mentioning Little Town
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of Bethlehem just made me think of. I had a 7 inch
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record of Cliff Richards singing that. But, you know, in a startlingly
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arrogant move, he didn't just sing the regular one, he like rewrote the
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music. And the COVID the
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COVID of it was just a big picture of his face superimposed
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on a sort of Bethlehem kind of background.
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And it appeared that he was topless. Like there was
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no T shirt collar or no shirt collar. Isn't it funny what you remember
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what was on the B shop?
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And please, please don't transform the stimulus for me.
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Please don't do. I've ruined it now.
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Every time you hear oh, Little Town of Bethlehem, you're going to think semi
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naked Cliff Richard. You're welcome. Thanks. That Just adds
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to me, you know, you know, Mrs. I like shiny things.
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Let's give, give me a diverse experience that just adds extra
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joy. Well, sometime I'll tell you the story about
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Walking in the Air, but that's probably not one for the podcast. Well, that's intriguing.
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Okay. And one thing we probably, we definitely should talk
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about is the kind of religious and secular
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connotations of Christmas because I guess it feels like it's a very different
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experience depending on where you sit with regard to your faith.
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Obviously for people who are devout Christians, Christmas is quite
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a different thing to someone who isn't or who's a
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non believer or someone who has another faith entirely. What sense
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can we make of what Christmas sort of is and
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has become in relation to all of that, do you think?
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It's really complicated. Hence I think everybody pausing there,
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you know, when you ask that question, I can just see all the
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different people around me and their different responses to that, you know,
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like the reeling about religion or the being
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very religious or the, you know, where I sit, which is I
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take the bits I like kind of position. And for me
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there's something about whatever religion that
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if it's done, and this is a judgement, a value judgement, in my view,
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if it's done well, it is about
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supporting people and community and creating community
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around some common set of values or beliefs.
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And so when you get a church community
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that functions in that way, then there's nothing better
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really. You know, when you're down, there's someone to catch you.
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When there's just something goes a little bit wrong, somebody notices, you know,
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you feel seen by your community and obviously that's not everybody's experience
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and it can be very different to that. And when it makes people feel
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excluded, that's a massive problem for me. Like religious leaders.
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Close family friend who's a Methodist, I can't remember what the
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term is for a Methodist religious leader, but she, she's so
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open and community focused that it wouldn't matter
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what religion you were, the door would be open to you, you know, and to
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me that's the sort of value of some religious beliefs that I
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kind of can, can kind of connect with, if that makes sense. And then that
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links in, you know, Christmas can be the same as,
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same as that allowing people to be accepted, to look
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after the people in the community who don't have anyone
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else, maybe to enable that sense of
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value and not just for the sake of it. And that's not going into all
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the flip side, is it really, which I know, other people might be
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more connected with. I mean, it's interesting, I suppose the four of us, it's probably
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fair to say, are relatively secular in our orientation.
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Maybe we should have made more effort to have a more representative Christmas
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party. And perhaps that says something about psychologists in sort
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of, certainly in a UK context. I can't think of many psychologists that
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I know who are very religious in terms of their
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orientation to the world. But, yeah, I guess it's a very
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different experience and your views of it will
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differ depending on that. And that said, there is something about the kind
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of sense of community that cuts across that,
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I think, in the sense of connection, you know, the fact it's
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a public holiday in, you know, most Christian countries,
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and that in itself is an opportunity for people to get together. And there is
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this great long history associated with Christmas of people
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getting together and, you know, breaking bread. And that feels somewhat
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universal, irrespective of your faith.
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I have a very close friend who would describe themselves
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as very religious and years ago had a conversation
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with them about views of religion.
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And her summary of her religion,
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of her faith in a Christian God, is that God is love.
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And I suppose what then speaks to me is that
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actually she would describe God as being love.
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And that guides her actions, it guides
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her beliefs, it guides her views of the world. And ultimately
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the guide that she is taking that drives her to
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do behaviours that are very kind, very loving,
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very gentle to other people, very generous,
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and she's a really close friend because
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she just has beautiful qualities. And I feel
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like we share a lot of those qualities and
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they don't have to for me. They don't come from believing in a
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Christian God. And our behaviours are relatively
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similar to each other because both of us are driven by
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a value of love. And so sometimes I think we talk
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about religion as being something that divides us
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or something that's different too. I suppose then
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a conversation I had with her where we started to then look less so
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at, like, why do you do the thing that you do? And she
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might quote Bible passages or things that have been shared in her
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church and she might use those as examples as to why she
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does the behaviour she does. But if we look at the outcome, if we look
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at the behavioural outcome from both of us,
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then the outcome of the behaviour was the same. It was kind,
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it was generous, it was loving, it was giving, it was compassionate,
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it was forgiving of people. And so whilst the input
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to us might be quite different, the output from us was
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relatively similar. And I think sometimes those conversations about
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religion can feel divisive. We're actually,
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you know, I say this across humanity, like we have
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more in common than we have as a difference between us.
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And I think, for me, Christmas, even if it comes
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from a secular place, I've talked about, you know, Ray mentioned
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the darkness of the season and, you know, in the darkest
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nights, we have this hope, this light, this connection,
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this celebration, this gathering and
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that links with what Rachel's just talked about in terms of community.
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So Christmas feels, although it may come from a different place
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or a different reason, feels important for
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almost the same reason, if that makes sense, if we look at
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the value of it, even if the beliefs behind that
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might feel different to people. It's interesting you talk
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about that. I'm interested, I think maybe doing an episode on religion at some
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point. But there is something about great
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monotheistic religions, you know, Judaism, Islam and
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Christianity, that sort of are a bit different from the ones that went before it,
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because they sort of require you to believe in stuff. And there's some
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evidence that the early days of Christianity were much less like
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that. And they were more similar to some of the religions
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that went before, which was more about the rituals
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and the practises, didn't require any specific set of
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beliefs. It was just about the observance of prayer
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and those things and meditation and spirituality and
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connecting to some kind of thing that you might call oneness or
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love or whatever. And it's something that's
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kind of happened to organised religion over time, that it's become
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kind of codified into a set of beliefs. I mean,
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Christmas is an interesting example in the sense it was only in the
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4th century that December 25th was sort of set upon as
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the date. But the ritual of wanting to
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get together to celebrate the birth of Jesus
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is an older thing. And it, you know, it's kind of like that was what
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was important rather than what date it fell on. So, yeah, I think there is
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something kind of older that survives in this
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secular version of Christmas that we kind of have now,
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with red and green and Christmas trees and Santa Claus and
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all of those other things that clearly would not have been around in
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the 4th century when people decided it was December 25th.
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There is something about connectedness and togetherness and
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love and giving and those kinds of things which probably are older
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in terms of the essence of those things. For me, links into
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whether we're talking about what's true and what's false or
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what are, as we said, what are our values or what are the
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way in which we treat other people or the way in which we live
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our lives. And one of the things I love about my job is
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having so many trainees come through and meeting so many different
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people who are kind of on their journey to becoming
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a clinical psychologist. And a lot of the people I've had as trainees
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come to work with us in our team have had actually quite.
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I never know whether devout is the right word. Cause it feels like it's a
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very, got a specific quality about it, but a very clear faith.
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And they've really helped me to think about it.
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Obviously that's just their experience and they're always really honest
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about that. This is just how I do my faith, you know, and this
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is what, what I believe. But on, on how to do that in a
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way that is about, you know, so if, if, if you're Muslim,
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how do you get your head around people's suicidal
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urges? You know, how, how do we work with that? You know, all these sorts
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of questions which could feel like a divisive,
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oh, well, that just is not doable in that religion or, you know,
439
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but actually when you really think about it and you do it
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with clear values and a way of wanting
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to come to the world, it's very different, you know, and it can
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give you more compassion. If somebody's got to
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the stage where they want to do something that is so apparently
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sinful in your culture, then what does that mean
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for how bad things are for them? You know, it's very different
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than just, oh, well, they must be a bad person because if they
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were, you know, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get to that point. You know,
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it's just a slight change, but it gives, it gives more
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kind of connection and compassion. And to me that, that's sort of
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my constant learning quest is how do I get more
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understanding of diverse views so that I can
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understand better rather than create more barriers and divides.
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Because they're kind of false when it comes to real human connection
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and meaning from my perspective anyway.
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And I guess for me, Rachel, that sort of takes us to this, I think
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often spurious sort of media imposed idea
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of, you know, the war on Christmas. People shouldn't be saying Happy
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Holidays rather than Christmas. I never heard anybody say Happy Holidays, but maybe that's a
459
00:27:47,272 --> 00:27:50,832
bigger thing in the States. And again, when people use
460
00:27:50,856 --> 00:27:54,630
the same word, Christmas, it's not that the
461
00:27:54,670 --> 00:27:58,310
whole meaning exists in those syllables, in those sounds that comes
462
00:27:58,350 --> 00:28:01,382
out of a person's mouth. You know, that word is a, is a label For
463
00:28:01,406 --> 00:28:04,758
a big sort of ragtag of things and for some people,
464
00:28:04,814 --> 00:28:08,822
of course, of a very strong Christian faith, you know, the core of
465
00:28:08,846 --> 00:28:12,134
that is a very specific set of beliefs and
466
00:28:12,222 --> 00:28:15,110
a very important moment in their, in their religion.
467
00:28:15,270 --> 00:28:19,230
And for lots of us it's a much broader thing, you know, that can then
468
00:28:19,270 --> 00:28:22,862
bizarrely, although the word Chris Mass comes from, you know, Mass of
469
00:28:22,886 --> 00:28:26,542
Christ, actually for most of us would, would include the fact that.
470
00:28:26,566 --> 00:28:30,302
Yeah, but this also includes like New Year's and you know, it depends how far
471
00:28:30,326 --> 00:28:33,198
you stretch it back when you stretch it back as far as Diwali. But there's
472
00:28:33,214 --> 00:28:37,566
a lot of religious festivals that completely non coincidentally all
473
00:28:37,638 --> 00:28:41,342
kind of cluster around the winter solstice, given that most of
474
00:28:41,366 --> 00:28:45,290
the religions that have kind of survived and thrived have been northern hemisphere.
475
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:48,402
So you know, when we use the word Christmas, you know,
476
00:28:48,426 --> 00:28:52,050
it's like, is it Christmas versus saying
477
00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:55,154
lots of different things are going on and it's an important time of year for
478
00:28:55,162 --> 00:28:58,910
non religious people too. Is that like an opposition thing
479
00:28:59,290 --> 00:29:02,146
or is it that. I think a lot of people, you would use the word
480
00:29:02,178 --> 00:29:05,986
Christmas just as a reference to this whole season and all the stuff that goes
481
00:29:06,018 --> 00:29:09,522
on within it without there being this opposition between. It's either this
482
00:29:09,546 --> 00:29:13,212
or that. Do you know much about the history of kind of
483
00:29:13,236 --> 00:29:17,116
Yuletide and solstice? Like I feel a bit ignorant about a lot of that.
484
00:29:17,188 --> 00:29:20,396
It's one of those things I did get into and I read up on
485
00:29:20,468 --> 00:29:24,684
and passage of years has of course sort of faded it out.
486
00:29:24,852 --> 00:29:28,764
It's also one of those things that a lot of the traditions clearly
487
00:29:28,812 --> 00:29:32,120
come from cultures that didn't write stuff down an awful lot.
488
00:29:32,660 --> 00:29:36,428
So, you know, there's a lot of guesswork. So for instance, you know, we all
489
00:29:36,484 --> 00:29:39,660
geographically live fairly close to each other, you know, in the sort of
490
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:43,110
broadly speaking, Midlands, West Midlands of England. And Rachel and I,
491
00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:46,406
you and I live much closer together, just a few miles away.
492
00:29:46,478 --> 00:29:50,310
And in our part of the world there's this tradition called wassailing. And actually
493
00:29:50,350 --> 00:29:53,030
there's two meanings of wastling. One of them is going door to door, kind of
494
00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:56,406
effectively carol singing. But the other one that still
495
00:29:56,478 --> 00:30:00,262
happens in our part of the world is this tradition of going to
496
00:30:00,286 --> 00:30:03,510
wake up the apple orchards traditionally on
497
00:30:03,550 --> 00:30:07,350
kind of Twelfth Night. And there's a whole ritual associated with it of
498
00:30:07,390 --> 00:30:10,836
people, flaming torches go down into the, into the apple
499
00:30:10,868 --> 00:30:14,388
orchard, make lots of noise to scare away the evil spirits,
500
00:30:14,484 --> 00:30:17,720
pour some of last year's cider in the roots of the biggest tree
501
00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:21,732
and then sort of ask the tree to wake up and produce us
502
00:30:21,756 --> 00:30:25,412
a nice harvest for this year. Then everybody drinks a lot of cider and makes
503
00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:29,444
a lot more noise. Have you been to Owasso, Rachel? I haven't,
504
00:30:29,492 --> 00:30:33,300
but I've tried to every year because it just looks exactly at
505
00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:37,048
my street, really. You know, ritual light
506
00:30:37,184 --> 00:30:40,940
ray. How does one get an invite to this thing? It sounds amazing.
507
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,060
You have to know people. A special code.
508
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,904
There is. I. I heard a brilliant story from one just recently.
509
00:30:50,992 --> 00:30:53,816
You know, part of the thing is making lots of noise. Traditionally, it's hitting,
510
00:30:53,848 --> 00:30:57,400
like, pans with ladles and things. But of course, anything that makes
511
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760
noise goals for the bit where you're. You're walking around in circles and
512
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,164
driving away the spirits. This being the countryside, and the countryside
513
00:31:04,212 --> 00:31:07,636
being what it was, it tends now to involve shotguns as well, often with blank
514
00:31:07,668 --> 00:31:11,860
cartridges and a lot of cider and people with flaming torches.
515
00:31:12,020 --> 00:31:14,280
Introduces certain sorts of complexities.
516
00:31:15,020 --> 00:31:18,468
So a friend of mine was a doh, and beforehand,
517
00:31:18,484 --> 00:31:22,292
the guy who was hosting it, it was a big local character whose farm it
518
00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:25,988
was on, had to do a safety briefing for
519
00:31:26,044 --> 00:31:29,868
everyone. And so he stood there at the front in his hi Vis vest
520
00:31:30,004 --> 00:31:33,084
with a clipboard and said, right,
521
00:31:33,252 --> 00:31:36,640
I've done the risk assessment for this pause.
522
00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:39,932
It's quite risky. Right, off we go.
523
00:31:40,116 --> 00:31:43,468
So that's a very Gloucestershire approach to health and safety.
524
00:31:43,564 --> 00:31:46,972
I love talking to you. Like, we literally live. Like, I could get in my
525
00:31:46,996 --> 00:31:50,652
car, it's less than an hour to get to your house, right. And you talk
526
00:31:50,676 --> 00:31:54,220
about things that could be just from another planet, like stuff I've never
527
00:31:54,260 --> 00:31:58,500
heard of, you know, what is this now? Like, villagers with
528
00:31:58,620 --> 00:32:02,724
flaming torches getting drunk and firing shotguns at Christmas,
529
00:32:02,852 --> 00:32:05,972
you know, who knew? Who knows what goes on where you
530
00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:09,604
live? Well, the point is, John Lewis hasn't found a way of monetizing that yet,
531
00:32:09,692 --> 00:32:13,348
so that's why other people haven't heard about it. When they do. Long may
532
00:32:13,404 --> 00:32:16,612
that continue. I would like an invitation if
533
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,068
that's. If you could sort that out for next year. Life goal for next
534
00:32:20,124 --> 00:32:23,362
year. We'll try and get a salt to a wassail.
535
00:32:23,516 --> 00:32:26,982
Okay. I like where this conversation has gone. Not just
536
00:32:27,006 --> 00:32:30,210
because of the shotguns and the flaming torches, although that is great.
537
00:32:30,590 --> 00:32:34,118
Just the idea of something older at work here,
538
00:32:34,174 --> 00:32:37,830
something more kind of primal about, you know, human beings
539
00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:41,814
and our need to connect and our need to celebrate
540
00:32:41,862 --> 00:32:45,718
and our need to mark occasions and engage in rituals,
541
00:32:45,814 --> 00:32:49,078
you know, so far, so good. And something we alluded to earlier,
542
00:32:49,134 --> 00:32:52,550
and I think it's Worth coming back to, given that we all work in
543
00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:56,150
contexts where we're spending lots of time with people who are
544
00:32:56,270 --> 00:33:00,390
struggling with life for various different reasons, it's clearly
545
00:33:00,470 --> 00:33:04,342
not all plain sailing for everybody. What do you think the big contextual
546
00:33:04,406 --> 00:33:07,638
factors are that influence whether
547
00:33:07,694 --> 00:33:11,030
people look toward Christmas with joy
548
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:14,630
or terror or any other kind of emotion?
549
00:33:14,790 --> 00:33:18,390
Feels like an absolutely huge question when I start
550
00:33:18,430 --> 00:33:22,432
to think about. Context is not just the individual's
551
00:33:22,496 --> 00:33:26,288
context, like current context, it's also their
552
00:33:26,344 --> 00:33:30,160
historical context. And that includes the historical
553
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,712
context of their parents and their experiences of Christmas and
554
00:33:33,736 --> 00:33:37,232
what that was like and potentially their grandparents
555
00:33:37,296 --> 00:33:40,976
and etc, etc. In terms of the rituals
556
00:33:41,008 --> 00:33:44,912
that have been built up, One of the things we talked about Ray raised
557
00:33:44,976 --> 00:33:48,762
earlier is Rachel and I are having Pavlovian
558
00:33:48,826 --> 00:33:52,442
responses to Christmas and that kind
559
00:33:52,466 --> 00:33:55,070
of sets my scene for Christmas.
560
00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:59,130
So if somebody has a very different history to me or
561
00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:03,290
had a very different history to my parents, experiences of Christmas
562
00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:07,290
and therefore how they were able to set a Christmas example for me and
563
00:34:07,330 --> 00:34:10,922
what that felt like, then my experience of Christmas would also be
564
00:34:10,946 --> 00:34:14,282
very different, wouldn't it? And so we are a product of
565
00:34:14,306 --> 00:34:17,802
our histories, but not just a product of like
566
00:34:17,986 --> 00:34:21,866
our trauma that's happened or one, one event that's happened.
567
00:34:21,978 --> 00:34:25,430
We're a product of so much complex history
568
00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:28,922
that we're unable to see. And then we
569
00:34:28,946 --> 00:34:32,442
try to put language to why we like Christmas or we
570
00:34:32,466 --> 00:34:36,490
don't like Christmas. But actually this is such a complex going
571
00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:40,150
back generation after generation as to whether we've set
572
00:34:40,190 --> 00:34:43,926
up a context for our future children to enjoy Christmas.
573
00:34:43,958 --> 00:34:47,334
And what does enjoying Christmas mean? And is it even Christmas or is it
574
00:34:47,342 --> 00:34:50,486
a festive period or, you know,
575
00:34:50,638 --> 00:34:54,102
the question you ask there is absolutely huge. So one
576
00:34:54,126 --> 00:34:57,110
thing that came to my mind when you asked the question, Rich,
577
00:34:57,190 --> 00:35:01,510
was something I've been very aware of for myself
578
00:35:01,590 --> 00:35:05,174
and for loved ones and for my clients.
579
00:35:05,302 --> 00:35:08,640
And even broader than that in our society
580
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:12,540
is just the pace of life that we currently live
581
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:16,796
at. And one of the things I would love to do over Christmas
582
00:35:16,988 --> 00:35:20,812
and made a special request for was just to have a day
583
00:35:20,916 --> 00:35:24,396
during the whole Christmas period where we do nothing.
584
00:35:24,508 --> 00:35:28,204
And what that means is to not be checking emails,
585
00:35:28,252 --> 00:35:31,040
not be looking on Facebook, not be scrolling,
586
00:35:31,550 --> 00:35:36,406
just having permission to do nothing and just
587
00:35:36,478 --> 00:35:40,470
to think about how we could slow down over that time that I
588
00:35:40,510 --> 00:35:43,798
will be off work for a couple of weeks and even
589
00:35:43,854 --> 00:35:46,090
within a couple of weeks annual leave,
590
00:35:46,590 --> 00:35:49,446
feeling like there's going to be a lot going on,
591
00:35:49,598 --> 00:35:52,774
a lot to prepare a lot, to host a lot
592
00:35:52,782 --> 00:35:56,102
of shopping to do a lot of present wrapping to do.
593
00:35:56,286 --> 00:35:59,904
And genuinely, it's very easy
594
00:35:59,952 --> 00:36:03,728
then to go back into work in the new year, just still
595
00:36:03,784 --> 00:36:07,500
on the treadmill, like having not got off the treadmill at all.
596
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,952
And societally, I think we're almost in a stage
597
00:36:12,016 --> 00:36:15,408
now, or phase now where we praise that,
598
00:36:15,464 --> 00:36:19,168
you know, if people are not at burnout level, people are told they're
599
00:36:19,184 --> 00:36:23,420
not working hard enough in lots of areas of our work life
600
00:36:23,980 --> 00:36:27,028
and it feels like we're on a constant go, go,
601
00:36:27,084 --> 00:36:30,932
go. And that's something I'm really mindful of in terms of
602
00:36:31,116 --> 00:36:34,404
the quality of time that we have during
603
00:36:34,492 --> 00:36:38,324
any festive period. Involves a process of
604
00:36:38,412 --> 00:36:41,636
us noticing and choosing.
605
00:36:41,828 --> 00:36:45,332
And it's a very apt thing to talk about, isn't it? But to notice,
606
00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:48,916
to tune in, to cheque in with ourselves and to make value
607
00:36:48,988 --> 00:36:52,932
driven decisions. And one of my value driven decisions is
608
00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:56,932
that I would like some time where I genuinely do step off the treadmill
609
00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:00,660
and slow down. And it's really difficult, I think,
610
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:04,420
for us humans to do that. And that
611
00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:08,356
links with lots of other things like the commercialism of Christmas
612
00:37:08,468 --> 00:37:11,780
and the drive to earn more money or do more or
613
00:37:11,820 --> 00:37:15,396
be more or see more people. And sometimes
614
00:37:15,428 --> 00:37:18,842
that comes from a lovely place like connecting with people. And then
615
00:37:18,866 --> 00:37:22,682
we overbook our social calendars and that can
616
00:37:22,706 --> 00:37:25,962
feel draining rather than nourishing to us.
617
00:37:26,066 --> 00:37:29,642
I suppose when you ask the question, there are huge numbers of
618
00:37:29,666 --> 00:37:32,950
things that people struggle with at this time of year.
619
00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:37,626
And I feel like I've only answered that from a larger society
620
00:37:37,738 --> 00:37:41,402
perspective. There are lots of individual circumstances that I
621
00:37:41,426 --> 00:37:44,772
haven't even begun to talk about. And I suppose
622
00:37:44,836 --> 00:37:48,084
that's the sea that we're all swimming in at the moment,
623
00:37:48,212 --> 00:37:51,620
in a shared societal context. That's always struck
624
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,092
me, I think, that just the stress of it,
625
00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:58,372
I think maybe that's one of the things that gets in the way of
626
00:37:58,396 --> 00:38:02,228
me enjoying it a little, just because it seems like so much
627
00:38:02,284 --> 00:38:05,524
to do. There's just so many additional demands
628
00:38:05,572 --> 00:38:09,540
on top of a life that's already busy and full
629
00:38:09,580 --> 00:38:12,504
and stressful. Yeah, Rachel?
630
00:38:12,632 --> 00:38:16,360
Yeah. I felt completely overwhelmed by Rich's question and thought,
631
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,912
God, where on earth do you start? And then your description,
632
00:38:19,976 --> 00:38:23,800
dawn, really resonated with me and I guess taking it to
633
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,440
a more personal level, you know, the last 10 years of Christmas
634
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,856
for me have been full of sadness,
635
00:38:32,968 --> 00:38:34,700
grief, pain,
636
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,830
longing, hope,
637
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:42,442
sense of failure, you know, a whole load of things for
638
00:38:42,466 --> 00:38:45,898
many years now. And yet I still
639
00:38:45,954 --> 00:38:49,990
love Christmas and I still want to create
640
00:38:50,610 --> 00:38:54,202
something. Not something perfect, not Something busy,
641
00:38:54,346 --> 00:38:57,866
but something calmly connecting with some of those twinkly
642
00:38:57,898 --> 00:39:01,546
lights and those moments and those sensory kind of input
643
00:39:01,578 --> 00:39:05,400
for my family. And I think that really does come from
644
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,600
like you say, a generational connection
645
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,168
with some of those moments. You know, I come from a big
646
00:39:12,224 --> 00:39:16,008
family where we used to, every Boxing Day, 30 of us would get together
647
00:39:16,064 --> 00:39:18,392
and some were not. Maybe it wasn't 30 at the time, maybe it was like
648
00:39:18,416 --> 00:39:22,120
more like 20 in somebody's house with my grandmother as
649
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,672
the matriarch. And it would just be this ritual of
650
00:39:25,696 --> 00:39:29,080
Christmas that everybody got together and it was busy, but it was just
651
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,068
normal. It felt, you know, familiar. And you know, I remember
652
00:39:33,164 --> 00:39:36,492
going to midnight mass, whether that was
653
00:39:36,596 --> 00:39:39,996
with the people from the pub or whether it was with my mother in law
654
00:39:40,068 --> 00:39:43,132
who wanted to go for, who was very religious.
655
00:39:43,276 --> 00:39:46,620
And that was another kind of ritual. And then we used
656
00:39:46,660 --> 00:39:49,980
to have the same people for Christmas every year and we'd have
657
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:53,964
our family curry and that was a kind
658
00:39:53,972 --> 00:39:57,372
of tradition that just we knew was there and it was the
659
00:39:57,396 --> 00:40:01,214
same people. And then as we got older, my cousins would
660
00:40:01,382 --> 00:40:04,782
make cocktails and you know, just, you know, and they became,
661
00:40:04,846 --> 00:40:08,782
all these things became rituals and traditions that have kind of instilled
662
00:40:08,846 --> 00:40:12,526
that feeling of warmth and expectation on a sensory level.
663
00:40:12,678 --> 00:40:16,670
Although that has also led to grief when that's had to stop and things
664
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:21,070
have changed. It's also kept that sense,
665
00:40:21,150 --> 00:40:24,530
you know, back to a Pavlov, you know, it's kept that sense,
666
00:40:24,590 --> 00:40:27,962
sense and that, that response in me that has helped me to cope with
667
00:40:27,986 --> 00:40:31,770
those difficult times. Whereas some of the people I work with, they don't have
668
00:40:31,810 --> 00:40:35,258
any of that. They only have something
669
00:40:35,314 --> 00:40:38,602
awful that's happened at Christmas or somebody walked out on
670
00:40:38,626 --> 00:40:42,346
them at Christmas. And almost like the twinkly lights remind
671
00:40:42,378 --> 00:40:45,722
them of that rather than anything else. They don't have like a
672
00:40:45,746 --> 00:40:48,890
foundation or a kind of, you know, something to build on. So we're having
673
00:40:48,930 --> 00:40:52,120
to build new things from here, you know, and it's very
674
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,736
different, isn't it? It's a very different context.
675
00:40:55,928 --> 00:40:59,384
And my Christmases are very different now. They're right pared right down.
676
00:40:59,472 --> 00:41:03,352
Have absolutely nothing that we have to do. Do the regular meal because
677
00:41:03,376 --> 00:41:06,728
that's the familiar thing. And we'll have the stockings and we'll
678
00:41:06,744 --> 00:41:09,912
do the things and you know, this year I think I'm going to try and
679
00:41:09,936 --> 00:41:13,816
do stockings at the end of the bed again with the orange in, because we'd
680
00:41:13,848 --> 00:41:17,422
stopped that for a while, you know, so adding in bits and putting up a
681
00:41:17,446 --> 00:41:20,942
few lights enough Just to make it twinkle, but not too many, that it means
682
00:41:20,966 --> 00:41:24,462
you spend a week taking them down off the roof or whatever it is that
683
00:41:24,486 --> 00:41:27,966
some people end up having to do. So it's making those connections,
684
00:41:27,998 --> 00:41:31,598
isn't it? But without that massive expectation and with lots
685
00:41:31,614 --> 00:41:35,022
of ability for things to go wrong because you don't have the expectation of
686
00:41:35,046 --> 00:41:38,590
it going right. I think one of the things that's been coming
687
00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:42,246
up in this is those kind of like, rituals, traditions, call them what we will
688
00:41:42,358 --> 00:41:45,990
and the benefits of them, the things that we like about them and the things
689
00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:49,414
that are wonderful about them. And I think that's also the gateway sometimes to the
690
00:41:49,422 --> 00:41:53,430
difficulties. I don't know about the rest of you. Sort of in my practise in
691
00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:56,486
seeing people, I kind of almost always sort of,
692
00:41:56,558 --> 00:42:00,086
if I'm seeing people in December, I'll always offer,
693
00:42:00,238 --> 00:42:04,038
not just as a social inquiry, you know, or what about Christmas, but actually
694
00:42:04,094 --> 00:42:07,350
put that potentially on the menu for working
695
00:42:07,390 --> 00:42:10,838
on within a session. Because for so many people it might be that it's just
696
00:42:10,894 --> 00:42:14,430
a positive thing. People are looking forward to it and that's nice to have that
697
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:17,982
bit of light. But also, so often it's something people
698
00:42:18,006 --> 00:42:21,662
are worrying about and are stressed about in advance, either sort of
699
00:42:21,686 --> 00:42:24,810
just generally or very specific things.
700
00:42:25,110 --> 00:42:28,510
I think one of the things is people try to and
701
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:32,462
often do find ways of coping with the most remarkable circumstances.
702
00:42:32,606 --> 00:42:35,726
But the ways people sometimes cope
703
00:42:35,918 --> 00:42:39,518
with family pressures or somebody
704
00:42:39,534 --> 00:42:42,830
in the family who you have a very poor relationship with, who's been violent to
705
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:46,290
you, or who drinks or, you know, there are difficulties.
706
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:51,018
You know, people establish patterns that are around really managing contact and
707
00:42:51,074 --> 00:42:55,034
doing it on terms that you can manage, making it minimal. And of course,
708
00:42:55,122 --> 00:42:59,050
along comes Christmas then with all these wider
709
00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:03,098
family rules about everybody gets together for this, everybody sits
710
00:43:03,114 --> 00:43:06,698
down at the same time, you know, alcohol is flowing. If you're
711
00:43:06,714 --> 00:43:10,170
a family that drinks alcohol. And sometimes people's very well
712
00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:14,382
established ways of kind of just navigating, surviving complex
713
00:43:14,446 --> 00:43:18,046
family life for this little period, all their coping strategies
714
00:43:18,078 --> 00:43:21,758
get taken away from them and they're forced into a position where
715
00:43:21,814 --> 00:43:25,550
all the worst things kind of are right up front and centre
716
00:43:25,710 --> 00:43:29,006
and it's harder to escape without causing a scene,
717
00:43:29,118 --> 00:43:32,878
causing difficulty. Sometimes that's exactly what people have to do. But I think that's
718
00:43:32,894 --> 00:43:36,558
the reason sometimes people approach it with dread and sometimes reasonably with
719
00:43:36,614 --> 00:43:40,062
dread. Yeah, what you're saying reminds me just to kind of
720
00:43:40,086 --> 00:43:44,334
bring it down too much. But the, you know, things like the EastEnders Christmas
721
00:43:44,382 --> 00:43:47,918
special or the one that sticks
722
00:43:47,934 --> 00:43:50,606
to my I don't even know if this was Christmas. It might have been Thanksgiving.
723
00:43:50,638 --> 00:43:54,254
But there's an episode of the Bear, if anyone has ever seen that, where there's
724
00:43:54,302 --> 00:43:57,710
sort of simmering tensions within a family. And it
725
00:43:57,750 --> 00:44:01,278
just. You know, it's just there all through the episode of this really
726
00:44:01,334 --> 00:44:05,342
busy kitchen with people getting the food together, and then gradually they all
727
00:44:05,366 --> 00:44:07,934
sit down and this is meant to be this nice bit, but then all of
728
00:44:07,942 --> 00:44:11,236
the tensions start to emerge and then it. It all sort of goes horribly
729
00:44:11,268 --> 00:44:14,596
wrong. That's a real thing, isn't it? I know those are dramatisations,
730
00:44:14,628 --> 00:44:18,708
but the sort of. The tensions that exist within a family,
731
00:44:18,844 --> 00:44:22,820
often that's where they kind of become manifest at
732
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:26,532
these moments, because everyone's together and because there is a
733
00:44:26,556 --> 00:44:29,988
sort of level of stress about the whole thing. It's kind of this
734
00:44:30,044 --> 00:44:33,748
interesting thing about Christmas is it can bring out the best and the worst in
735
00:44:33,804 --> 00:44:37,092
people. The thing I was going to add just is it's kind of like
736
00:44:37,116 --> 00:44:40,510
the flip side, I suppose, because we. The theme of this,
737
00:44:40,890 --> 00:44:44,178
understandably, has very much been about kind of connection
738
00:44:44,274 --> 00:44:47,314
and togetherness, but I guess one
739
00:44:47,322 --> 00:44:51,362
of the big contextual factors that's going to influence it in the other way is
740
00:44:51,466 --> 00:44:55,314
how connected you are or how isolated you are. It's a
741
00:44:55,322 --> 00:44:59,234
bit like the pandemic. That was a very different experience for perhaps
742
00:44:59,282 --> 00:45:02,482
a family living in a detached house who had a nice garden and they could
743
00:45:02,506 --> 00:45:05,874
all be together, whereas someone who's living on their own in a tower
744
00:45:05,922 --> 00:45:10,110
block, that's a very different experience. And I think people who
745
00:45:10,460 --> 00:45:14,660
feel lonely feel very lonely at Christmas.
746
00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:18,356
And that's obviously a really difficult and painful
747
00:45:18,388 --> 00:45:22,660
thing for people to have to confront. I think along and
748
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:26,868
alongside the actual experience of loneliness, given my area
749
00:45:26,924 --> 00:45:30,852
of work interest has tended to be people who are themselves
750
00:45:30,916 --> 00:45:34,692
seriously ill or they're looking after somebody who's seriously ill or are
751
00:45:34,716 --> 00:45:37,490
recently bereaved. Then obviously,
752
00:45:37,570 --> 00:45:40,274
Christmas is one of those kind of focal points. I mean, I guess that's one
753
00:45:40,282 --> 00:45:44,082
of the reasons I got into the habit of always raising it in sessions at
754
00:45:44,106 --> 00:45:47,490
this time of year, because of that emphasis on people being
755
00:45:47,530 --> 00:45:51,710
together. The prospect of this person,
756
00:45:52,010 --> 00:45:55,314
perhaps the client themselves or somebody that they love not being around
757
00:45:55,402 --> 00:45:59,026
by next Christmas or already somebody's
758
00:45:59,058 --> 00:46:02,830
missing, really comes into much, much sharper focus
759
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:07,008
and trying to establish not
760
00:46:07,064 --> 00:46:10,432
ways of being fine with that, because how could you be
761
00:46:10,456 --> 00:46:14,368
fine? It is that pain being the other side of values. That means the emphasis
762
00:46:14,384 --> 00:46:17,840
on love and togetherness means that is a time that the absence of those
763
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,648
things or the prospect of the absence of those things will bring the most
764
00:46:21,704 --> 00:46:25,072
pain. And that possibly is an important part
765
00:46:25,096 --> 00:46:28,912
of grieving. And rather than just being frozen,
766
00:46:28,976 --> 00:46:32,898
horror of how bad those days are going to be, sometimes we can
767
00:46:32,954 --> 00:46:36,194
look forward and say, okay, so your art is going to
768
00:46:36,202 --> 00:46:39,762
be hard. It is going to really, really hurt. What are you
769
00:46:39,786 --> 00:46:43,186
going to do? How are you going to handle that when it hits? Because you're
770
00:46:43,218 --> 00:46:46,962
probably right, it probably is going to hit hard and then get into thinking what
771
00:46:46,986 --> 00:46:49,762
a person might choose to do. Not to make it feel okay, because it's not
772
00:46:49,786 --> 00:46:54,210
going to feel okay, but to honour the person or bring
773
00:46:54,250 --> 00:46:57,730
their sort of their presence, as you say in grief work that,
774
00:46:57,770 --> 00:47:01,522
you know, the continuing bond with a person who's died, make that
775
00:47:01,546 --> 00:47:04,788
sort of like manifest there. And again, this isn't some fancy
776
00:47:04,804 --> 00:47:08,148
new psychology, is it? These are cultural and faith traditions.
777
00:47:08,324 --> 00:47:12,052
Throughout history, the concept of a
778
00:47:12,076 --> 00:47:15,796
place setting for all the people who can't be present at a meal
779
00:47:15,828 --> 00:47:20,212
exists in many cultures. And I think sometimes one
780
00:47:20,236 --> 00:47:23,680
of the ways we can support people at a time like this is giving them
781
00:47:24,220 --> 00:47:27,604
the permission and the space to feel bad, even though society
782
00:47:27,652 --> 00:47:30,320
is saying you should feel it's a wonderful Christmas time,
783
00:47:30,750 --> 00:47:34,022
and also supporting them in making choices about what might work
784
00:47:34,046 --> 00:47:38,070
best for them. Thank you for that, Ray. That leads me onto what
785
00:47:38,110 --> 00:47:40,902
I wanted to kind of start to wrap up with, really,
786
00:47:41,006 --> 00:47:44,038
is that. And I certainly don't want to play
787
00:47:44,094 --> 00:47:47,702
into this myth that psychologists have all got their life sorted, but if
788
00:47:47,726 --> 00:47:51,222
there was one thing that you would say helps you
789
00:47:51,326 --> 00:47:54,614
navigate Christmas or something that perhaps
790
00:47:54,662 --> 00:47:58,598
comes up in your work with people as a thing that you perhaps recommend,
791
00:47:58,694 --> 00:48:02,252
what would you say that it was? So you want us to expand on
792
00:48:02,276 --> 00:48:05,548
anything that you just said there? Yeah,
793
00:48:05,644 --> 00:48:08,780
well, I'm just echoing what others have said, but, you know,
794
00:48:08,820 --> 00:48:13,196
ritual, there's a reason rituals always exist and always get reinvented
795
00:48:13,308 --> 00:48:16,636
and they get constantly reinvented. So now a ritual
796
00:48:16,668 --> 00:48:20,540
didn't exist when I was a kid was what Christmas films do you always watch
797
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:23,452
because you didn't have access to that kind of range. So that becomes a new
798
00:48:23,476 --> 00:48:26,870
ritual. So I guess what I would say is kind of create
799
00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:30,614
your rituals that are meaningful to you and it doesn't matter if
800
00:48:30,622 --> 00:48:34,038
it doesn't work. We'll try a different one next year. But, you know, do something
801
00:48:34,094 --> 00:48:38,102
active that turns towards the sad bits and
802
00:48:38,126 --> 00:48:41,622
makes room for them rather than just being the
803
00:48:41,646 --> 00:48:44,822
hope of ignoring it, because that's probably not going to work. Comes back to that
804
00:48:44,846 --> 00:48:48,130
quote, isn't it? Avoidance only works if you don't know you're doing it.
805
00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:52,550
If you know you're doing it, there's something that's problematic about it.
806
00:48:52,590 --> 00:48:56,234
So, yeah, trying to push something away probably isn't the
807
00:48:56,242 --> 00:49:00,122
most successful strategy. Yeah, it kind of connects with
808
00:49:00,226 --> 00:49:03,002
the feel. Deeply held, lightly for me.
809
00:49:03,106 --> 00:49:06,510
Create rituals, have intentionality,
810
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:10,442
but also have flexibility about how that
811
00:49:10,466 --> 00:49:13,562
might happen. Even if your whole Christmas dinner is ruined,
812
00:49:13,626 --> 00:49:16,874
you can still sit on a TV tray in
813
00:49:16,882 --> 00:49:20,234
front of the telly and have another place sitting next to you for the person
814
00:49:20,322 --> 00:49:23,900
who's not there, potentially. Or just imagine they're sitting beside you,
815
00:49:23,940 --> 00:49:26,972
leave a space on the sofa. You know, it doesn't have to be done in
816
00:49:26,996 --> 00:49:30,924
a specific way. For me, that's the important bit. But if we completely
817
00:49:30,972 --> 00:49:34,268
avoid it, then we don't have that opportunity.
818
00:49:34,364 --> 00:49:37,852
Like, let's imagine it is our last Christmas with someone and we
819
00:49:37,876 --> 00:49:41,788
just avoid spending it with them. Could we instead say,
820
00:49:41,924 --> 00:49:45,132
right, it's really important I spend it with you and I don't really care
821
00:49:45,156 --> 00:49:48,828
how it turns out, but I want this last Christmas to be with you.
822
00:49:48,964 --> 00:49:52,412
Wow, that's hit me in the feels. But there's something about that,
823
00:49:52,436 --> 00:49:55,468
isn't there? That idea of time being short,
824
00:49:55,604 --> 00:49:59,484
life being short, and treating. It's such a cliche. But there's a cliche for
825
00:49:59,492 --> 00:50:02,508
a reason, right? That sort of treating every day as if it was the last
826
00:50:02,564 --> 00:50:06,028
one. Yeah. I've got a colleague who's going through something similar
827
00:50:06,084 --> 00:50:10,236
at the moment, and the person who she's worried won't be with her next year,
828
00:50:10,388 --> 00:50:13,212
you know, was sort of saying, oh, I don't think I'll come to Christmas because
829
00:50:13,236 --> 00:50:16,364
I'll just ruin it for everyone. And she said something along those lines,
830
00:50:16,412 --> 00:50:19,870
I think to her, so don't you dare not come to
831
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:23,822
Christmas. You know, I want you. You have
832
00:50:23,846 --> 00:50:26,782
to be there. It might be your last, you know, and we want you with
833
00:50:26,806 --> 00:50:30,570
us, and we don't care how it turns out. Several years ago
834
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:34,638
was probably one of my most difficult Christmases,
835
00:50:34,814 --> 00:50:38,606
and it coincided with doing lots of professional development
836
00:50:38,758 --> 00:50:42,174
as well, and doing some
837
00:50:42,262 --> 00:50:46,062
online sessions with Maevis Sai, who's a functional analytics
838
00:50:46,126 --> 00:50:49,666
psychotherapist, amazing lady. And it
839
00:50:49,738 --> 00:50:53,698
really made me think about the language we use around Christmas around
840
00:50:53,754 --> 00:50:58,258
Christmas time, around New Year, and there's lots of happy wishes
841
00:50:58,354 --> 00:51:01,746
sent to people. So we talk about Merry Christmas or Happy
842
00:51:01,778 --> 00:51:04,402
Christmas. And I certainly,
843
00:51:04,546 --> 00:51:08,722
in that particular year, was really struggling with connecting
844
00:51:08,786 --> 00:51:12,050
with just, you know, unadulterated joy. It was
845
00:51:12,090 --> 00:51:15,894
really difficult to see Christmas as just this Expanse
846
00:51:15,942 --> 00:51:19,222
of brightness and lightness and excitement,
847
00:51:19,286 --> 00:51:22,598
because it didn't feel like that inside. And I actually
848
00:51:22,654 --> 00:51:26,102
started to change the language that I use, even in my
849
00:51:26,126 --> 00:51:30,374
Christmas cards. So if I write a Christmas card now to anybody,
850
00:51:30,502 --> 00:51:34,118
I never say Merry Christmas or Happy Christmas.
851
00:51:34,294 --> 00:51:37,798
I always now use language like,
852
00:51:37,934 --> 00:51:41,170
I wish you a kind and meaningful festive period.
853
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:46,424
And for me, what that does is it gave me permission in
854
00:51:46,512 --> 00:51:50,056
my deepest, darkest sadness, it gave
855
00:51:50,088 --> 00:51:53,352
me permission to be kind to myself and to be
856
00:51:53,376 --> 00:51:56,440
kind to other people. It also gave me
857
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,472
permission to still find meaning when it felt like there wasn't any.
858
00:52:00,656 --> 00:52:04,296
And I wish that for other people. If you're not troubled
859
00:52:04,328 --> 00:52:08,334
at all and this is your most joyous year, then I still wish
860
00:52:08,382 --> 00:52:11,966
you kindness and I still wish you meaning.
861
00:52:12,158 --> 00:52:14,930
And if this is your most difficult Christmas,
862
00:52:15,350 --> 00:52:19,358
then please, please, please find kindness for yourself
863
00:52:19,534 --> 00:52:22,610
and please find some meaning for yourself.
864
00:52:23,110 --> 00:52:26,734
Because I suppose that really summarises the warmth
865
00:52:26,862 --> 00:52:30,910
of the season for me. One of my earliest memories
866
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:35,000
was just standing at a bus stop in the middle of winter,
867
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,216
in the middle of Birmingham city centre with my mum,
868
00:52:38,408 --> 00:52:41,256
freezing cold, standing in the rain.
869
00:52:41,448 --> 00:52:45,240
And lots of strangers would say, oh, what are you doing for Christmas?
870
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,096
And it's the warmth that people show around this time
871
00:52:49,168 --> 00:52:53,304
that has really sat with me forever. And that's that warmth
872
00:52:53,352 --> 00:52:57,432
and that compassion. And if you're isolated and feeling
873
00:52:57,496 --> 00:53:00,952
lonely, we can also extend that warmth and
874
00:53:00,976 --> 00:53:04,622
compassion to ourselves. We can be more
875
00:53:04,646 --> 00:53:08,398
flexible in our language or gives people permission
876
00:53:08,494 --> 00:53:11,630
to be more flexible, more kind,
877
00:53:11,750 --> 00:53:15,550
more gentle, less rigid, less rule bound.
878
00:53:15,710 --> 00:53:20,382
Like Christmas doesn't equal perfection. If you
879
00:53:20,406 --> 00:53:23,214
know when you look back in January,
880
00:53:23,382 --> 00:53:26,702
at the time that you spend in December, how do
881
00:53:26,726 --> 00:53:30,400
you wish you will have spent it? And if from that perspective,
882
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,264
can you invite some kindness and some meaning? Thanks,
883
00:53:33,312 --> 00:53:36,848
Dawn. That's really beautiful what you just said. It puts
884
00:53:36,864 --> 00:53:40,256
me in mind to be a little geeky for a second. Some of the content
885
00:53:40,328 --> 00:53:44,272
of our previous episodes, we were talking about the use of language and it's just
886
00:53:44,376 --> 00:53:48,096
what you've said has just made me think about have a happy
887
00:53:48,128 --> 00:53:51,616
Christmas. Like it's a demand, you must
888
00:53:51,688 --> 00:53:55,488
have a happy Christmas. But yeah, something like wishing someone
889
00:53:55,544 --> 00:53:59,104
a kind and meaningful Christmas, there's something about that that feels a
890
00:53:59,112 --> 00:54:02,256
bit. Thank you. I was gonna.
891
00:54:02,368 --> 00:54:06,180
My two pen of theory was just for myself, really, I suppose,
892
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,704
and I think it's probably good advice. It's just about slowing down
893
00:54:10,872 --> 00:54:14,320
because I think I can find myself getting so kind
894
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,808
of caught up in everything that needs to be done that
895
00:54:17,864 --> 00:54:21,696
it all becomes a chore. I remember it's
896
00:54:21,728 --> 00:54:25,490
not a Christmas story, but one of our friends, Jim, Jim Lucas,
897
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,782
he told me a story once about standing at
898
00:54:28,806 --> 00:54:31,710
a bus stop like he was what he needed to get a bus into town
899
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:34,926
for work. And he was waiting at the bus stop and the bus was late.
900
00:54:35,078 --> 00:54:38,670
And he said he caught himself just like, looking at his watch and
901
00:54:38,790 --> 00:54:42,430
looking down the road see if the bus was coming and tutting
902
00:54:42,590 --> 00:54:44,910
and then looking down the road again as if that's going to make the bus
903
00:54:44,950 --> 00:54:48,446
come any quicker. And he said he just sort of caught himself in the moment
904
00:54:48,478 --> 00:54:51,920
and thought, like, if I spend my whole day like this, I'm going to think
905
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,488
that I had no time, when actually I'm at a bus stop,
906
00:54:55,624 --> 00:54:58,752
I've got no choice but to wait for the bus. Like, I've got some time,
907
00:54:58,856 --> 00:55:02,944
I've got a moment here. And he sort of caught himself and had this mindful
908
00:55:02,992 --> 00:55:06,864
moment and then consequently had a much better day as a consequence. And,
909
00:55:06,952 --> 00:55:10,400
yeah, I kind of think maybe that would be
910
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,840
certainly useful for me just to, like, slow down and
911
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,536
maybe that I'd enjoy writing Christmas cards rather than seeing
912
00:55:17,568 --> 00:55:21,114
it as a chore. And yet another thing on a to do list. Okay,
913
00:55:21,162 --> 00:55:24,442
well, thank you. It's been a bit of an emotional
914
00:55:24,506 --> 00:55:28,154
roller coaster, this. I've sort of laughed and I've been on the verge of tears
915
00:55:28,202 --> 00:55:31,850
on a couple of occasions, and maybe that is the most Christmassy thing of all.
916
00:55:31,890 --> 00:55:36,150
Right. It's a great big mixed bag of all sorts of things.
917
00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:40,010
So thank you for our discussion today.
918
00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:44,314
It's been really meaningful and I hope it's of use to the people that listen
919
00:55:44,362 --> 00:55:48,194
to it. There's one thing remaining, one little gift
920
00:55:48,242 --> 00:55:51,442
under the tree that we haven't yet unwrapped. Of course.
921
00:55:51,626 --> 00:55:54,722
And it's a question. Let's go
922
00:55:54,746 --> 00:55:58,258
and ask Ray, shall we? So,
923
00:55:58,394 --> 00:56:01,666
Raymond, I'm going to give you a choice. I wanted
924
00:56:01,698 --> 00:56:04,802
to do it in the grinchy way, but I thought, Ah, no, come on,
925
00:56:04,906 --> 00:56:08,066
lighten up. The choice is that what I'm interested
926
00:56:08,098 --> 00:56:11,618
to hear from you is either the best
927
00:56:11,754 --> 00:56:15,150
or the worst Christmas present that you ever received.
928
00:56:16,270 --> 00:56:19,730
You could probably hear the calculation that's going on in my head.
929
00:56:22,110 --> 00:56:25,510
Who am I gonna mortally insult?
930
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:28,998
And more importantly, are they likely ever to listen to this podcast?
931
00:56:29,174 --> 00:56:31,730
Actually, that's a really, really tough question.
932
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:35,654
We're not a family who does, like a gazillion presents. You know,
933
00:56:35,662 --> 00:56:38,310
you do more when the kids are little and stuff,
934
00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:41,690
so there's not actually much scope for a
935
00:56:41,730 --> 00:56:46,682
real stinkeroo of one. And as
936
00:56:46,706 --> 00:56:50,202
I know, you know, rich from personal experience. My wife
937
00:56:50,346 --> 00:56:53,930
is a keen knitter and her knitted products are always very, very high quality and
938
00:56:53,970 --> 00:56:57,258
are always incredibly welcome. When I was a child,
939
00:56:57,314 --> 00:57:00,330
I had aunts who used to knit, but they would never
940
00:57:00,370 --> 00:57:04,630
ever take measurements. So I would end up
941
00:57:05,010 --> 00:57:08,482
with like sweaters that were built for
942
00:57:08,506 --> 00:57:12,242
an orangutan. You know, this. Seriously, the, the sleeves
943
00:57:12,306 --> 00:57:15,458
will be down at knee level. So I
944
00:57:15,514 --> 00:57:18,930
did once end up with a bright purple sweater
945
00:57:19,010 --> 00:57:23,426
with two lime green bands across it with
946
00:57:23,498 --> 00:57:27,150
sleeves that could have like sort of, you know,
947
00:57:27,530 --> 00:57:30,850
gone on for a mile. So I would probably
948
00:57:30,930 --> 00:57:34,082
have to say, although I deeply appreciate all the knitting they did, they kept us
949
00:57:34,106 --> 00:57:37,540
warm at times when, you know, needed it and it was done with
950
00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:40,612
love and care. You know, that wasn't a great present.
951
00:57:40,796 --> 00:57:44,324
That is great. Thank you. See, there's part of me that wonders if
952
00:57:44,412 --> 00:57:48,340
that is a sort of dying thing, whether it's just people of our generation that
953
00:57:48,380 --> 00:57:51,200
had knitted gifts that they really didn't want.
954
00:57:51,660 --> 00:57:55,924
I wonder if that still happens. In her keenness
955
00:57:55,972 --> 00:57:59,204
and generosity of knitting, my wife's always really kind of clear about
956
00:57:59,292 --> 00:58:01,920
sort of like this is a consent based process,
957
00:58:03,830 --> 00:58:07,534
checking out. Does a person actually want this? Am I just putting an obligation
958
00:58:07,582 --> 00:58:11,214
for you to think, oh God, where's that thing that she gave me that
959
00:58:11,222 --> 00:58:14,010
I now have to wear every time I see her? So,
960
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:18,206
you know, hopefully the non consensual aspects of knitting
961
00:58:18,318 --> 00:58:22,222
are declining with time. It does put me in mind of this sort of
962
00:58:22,326 --> 00:58:26,382
horror of growing up in the 70s of someone saying,
963
00:58:26,566 --> 00:58:29,460
don't buy one, we can make that.
964
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,456
No, I don't want you to make it.
965
00:58:34,528 --> 00:58:37,976
I want the proper one from the shop. Moment of self
966
00:58:38,008 --> 00:58:41,160
disclosure. I still say that to my 13 year old
967
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,808
son on about a monthly basis and he rolls
968
00:58:44,824 --> 00:58:47,820
his eyes at me and looks in horror.
969
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,384
Keeping the dream alive. Brilliant. So given it's a
970
00:58:51,392 --> 00:58:55,358
Christmas party, anyone else want to chip in on answering Ray's question
971
00:58:55,464 --> 00:58:58,510
to the best or the worst Christmas present you ever had?
972
00:58:58,970 --> 00:59:02,642
I can chip in one, but it wasn't for me, I don't think, or I
973
00:59:02,666 --> 00:59:06,034
might have got one. Cause I think everyone got one. So in those big parties
974
00:59:06,082 --> 00:59:09,938
that we used to go to on Boxing Day, my eldest
975
00:59:10,034 --> 00:59:13,234
auntie, she was schoolteacher
976
00:59:13,282 --> 00:59:16,722
and she was, she was single and so we were like all her kids,
977
00:59:16,786 --> 00:59:20,696
basically the whole, this whole family were like her kids.
978
00:59:20,858 --> 00:59:24,520
And every year she'd buy absolutely everybody a present.
979
00:59:25,060 --> 00:59:28,972
And so a lot of them would be from those adverts on the telly
980
00:59:29,036 --> 00:59:32,172
for this is the best gadget that you can get.
981
00:59:32,276 --> 00:59:36,428
And there was one year, I remember she bought almost
982
00:59:36,484 --> 00:59:40,316
everybody one of those things that goes on the visor of a car to extend
983
00:59:40,348 --> 00:59:43,852
it like a visor extender. But all
984
00:59:43,876 --> 00:59:46,600
the teenage boys who couldn't drive got one too.
985
00:59:49,350 --> 00:59:52,622
And it would honestly the number of things that she gave like
986
00:59:52,646 --> 00:59:55,982
that were just amazing but it was just, and I can't say it was the
987
00:59:56,006 --> 00:59:59,534
worst present because it was like the, it was the highlight of our year,
988
00:59:59,622 --> 01:00:03,262
you know, it was like seeing what's Rosie going to buy this year,
989
01:00:03,366 --> 01:00:05,250
you know, it was just amazing.
990
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:10,942
Those are the best, aren't they? They're sort of so bad. It's good that it
991
01:00:10,966 --> 01:00:14,518
comes, comes, goes right through bad around the other side and is good again.
992
01:00:14,614 --> 01:00:18,022
Yeah, yeah, awesome. My other auntie, just to add an
993
01:00:18,046 --> 01:00:21,862
extra person in, my auntie Patty has a really great habit
994
01:00:21,926 --> 01:00:25,686
of re gifting and it's really obvious it's
995
01:00:25,718 --> 01:00:29,446
been re gifted from her present drawer and it's often quite
996
01:00:29,478 --> 01:00:33,206
random. So that's another really good one. And that continues
997
01:00:33,238 --> 01:00:36,614
as a tradition. I think as children we were
998
01:00:36,702 --> 01:00:40,166
incredibly gifted in terms
999
01:00:40,238 --> 01:00:44,112
like I've got two aunties who just spoilt us rotten.
1000
01:00:44,286 --> 01:00:48,076
And as a relatively small family there was me, my sister
1001
01:00:48,108 --> 01:00:51,840
and my cousin. So we got lots of presents
1002
01:00:52,180 --> 01:00:56,204
that gave lots of joy to the people giving them. So my aunties
1003
01:00:56,252 --> 01:01:00,044
would come Christmas morning and give us bag fulls of presents
1004
01:01:00,092 --> 01:01:03,420
and me and my sister would be opening those and later in the day my
1005
01:01:03,460 --> 01:01:07,564
cousin would come with her mum and dad, my aunt and uncle and
1006
01:01:07,652 --> 01:01:10,972
I was opening mine and my sister was opening hers and we were looking at
1007
01:01:10,996 --> 01:01:14,302
each other's and I got a car air freshener and
1008
01:01:14,326 --> 01:01:17,450
I was probably seven at this point and I,
1009
01:01:18,070 --> 01:01:21,518
you know that feeling of like you have to say
1010
01:01:21,574 --> 01:01:25,054
thanks, you're supposed to say thanks. And I remember standing
1011
01:01:25,102 --> 01:01:28,670
in the middle of my parents living room like under the tree with
1012
01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:32,718
all these presents all around me and like knowing how lucky
1013
01:01:32,734 --> 01:01:36,490
I am and I'm so grateful and I love my family
1014
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,248
and I love that they were always there at like 6 o'clock in the morning.
1015
01:01:40,304 --> 01:01:43,624
My aunties woke us up 11 year because they were knocking on
1016
01:01:43,632 --> 01:01:47,016
the door before me and my sister were even awake and so I loved
1017
01:01:47,048 --> 01:01:50,728
the enthusiasm. And then I had this car air freshener
1018
01:01:50,744 --> 01:01:54,808
and I was like, what's this? Just wondering
1019
01:01:54,904 --> 01:01:58,136
what I'm supposed to do because I don't want to be rude and I don't
1020
01:01:58,168 --> 01:02:02,882
want to be ungrateful and I'm seven Why
1021
01:02:02,906 --> 01:02:06,114
have you bought me this? And so it just turned out it was in
1022
01:02:06,122 --> 01:02:10,562
the wrong bag. But then just noticing the shame and the sadness
1023
01:02:10,626 --> 01:02:14,306
and the guilt and the. Oh, my gosh, Like, I was so. I was
1024
01:02:14,378 --> 01:02:18,510
so eager to open presents, I didn't even read the name on it.
1025
01:02:18,810 --> 01:02:22,386
And so it was intended for my uncle, who's called Dave.
1026
01:02:22,578 --> 01:02:26,290
And so it just said, to Dave Da.
1027
01:02:26,370 --> 01:02:29,494
That's it. That's probably all I saw. And so I,
1028
01:02:29,582 --> 01:02:33,174
you know, enthusiastically unwrapped this present and then didn't
1029
01:02:33,222 --> 01:02:37,126
quite know what to do with myself. So I then, like, tried to rewrap
1030
01:02:37,158 --> 01:02:40,806
it and put it in his bag before he even arrived on Christmas morning.
1031
01:02:40,958 --> 01:02:43,930
Yeah, we're gonna have a full house of auntie stories.
1032
01:02:44,590 --> 01:02:48,490
They seem well placed, don't they, for these presents?
1033
01:02:49,070 --> 01:02:52,294
So my dear departed aunt Winifred.
1034
01:02:52,342 --> 01:02:55,694
So she was my great aunt, so there's a bit of
1035
01:02:55,702 --> 01:02:59,326
a generational gap here. And she was just so kind.
1036
01:02:59,478 --> 01:03:02,170
She was a singular character, shall we say?
1037
01:03:02,550 --> 01:03:06,526
She danced to the beat of her own drum. I think she was lovely,
1038
01:03:06,638 --> 01:03:10,302
wonderful. She always was very thoughtful. Would always
1039
01:03:10,406 --> 01:03:14,010
get presents every year. And I remember, I mean, they were always
1040
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:17,054
a little out there.
1041
01:03:17,222 --> 01:03:20,526
And it's quite palpable, actually, the sort of memory
1042
01:03:20,558 --> 01:03:24,750
of opening her presence with a degree of trepidation. Because is
1043
01:03:24,790 --> 01:03:28,766
that same thing that you just described there, dawn, about that? You're grateful
1044
01:03:28,878 --> 01:03:32,526
and there's a bit of anxiety there, but she got me the once
1045
01:03:32,598 --> 01:03:36,414
this. It was like a terry
1046
01:03:36,462 --> 01:03:40,370
towelling, like, T shirt and matching shorts.
1047
01:03:45,670 --> 01:03:48,974
It was light blue. And she'd also bundled in there a
1048
01:03:48,982 --> 01:03:52,630
pack of sort of knee length white socks.
1049
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:55,462
So have you still got them,
1050
01:03:55,486 --> 01:03:58,530
Rich? Of course I've still got no.
1051
01:03:59,310 --> 01:04:03,078
But I will leave you with that image of me as a small
1052
01:04:03,134 --> 01:04:06,614
child in my matching blue terry towelling outfit. White socks in
1053
01:04:06,622 --> 01:04:10,566
the middle of winter. Okay, well, that does wrap
1054
01:04:10,598 --> 01:04:14,038
it up, if you pardon the pun. And yeah,
1055
01:04:14,054 --> 01:04:17,910
a big merry Christmas to each of you. Thank you very much for
1056
01:04:18,030 --> 01:04:21,792
joining us. And yeah, merry Christmas to everybody
1057
01:04:21,856 --> 01:04:25,168
out there. And if I could steal something that's already
1058
01:04:25,224 --> 01:04:28,688
been said, I wish everybody a kind
1059
01:04:28,744 --> 01:04:31,616
and meaningful time over the festive period.
1060
01:04:31,768 --> 01:04:32,120
Take care.