Ep 03. Actively seeking out these fics. (What famous people should know about fanfic)

VO
Hello and welcome to Transformative Taskmaster: a podcast by fans, for fans, and about fans. This episode, TK will be speaking with fic author Unquietspirit. Together they’ll be discussing what RPF is, and why people write it, as well as the concept of kayfabe. They’ll be talking about pro wrestling, camp, and drag, as they relate to Taskmaster.
TK
Unquietspirit. Welcome to the Transformative Taskmaster podcast.
Unquietspirit
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
TK
Happy to have you. Now, you're here to talk today about RPF, celebrities' interactions with RPF, all that kind of stuff. So before we really get into it, tell me about your background in fandom and who you are in the Taskmaster fandom, if you're comfortable with that.
Unquietspirit
Sure. So I've been in fandom since I was, I don't know, like 12. I mean, honestly, I've been writing fanfic since before I knew what fanfic was, but, that's when I actually got internet access and discovered that other people do this too. And so I started out in the Harry Potter fandom, and then, around 2008, due to the election in the US, I actually got into real person fandom, which is RPF, because I got into, you know, Pundit and Daily Show and Colbert Report fanfic. And so I’ve basically been almost exclusively an RPF fan since 2008. So coming up on 20 years now, which is insane.
And in Taskmaster fandom, I got interested in it through being a fan and sort of a casual fan of James Acaster. And then seeing clips of him on Taskmaster and finally watching an episode and everything like that. And, so that was two years ago, pretty much exactly two years ago, I think. And yeah, within like three episodes, I was like, there's fanfic of this. Let me go look at it. So I just do, and then, as I was watching, I got super inspired and actually started writing and posting my first fic before I’d even watched all the episodes. And it's based on series seven, of course, with James, and I also am a member of the The Being Perceived Club. I wrote A Big Boy Like You, which Alex called his current favorite, which is insane if you know what that fic is about. So that's who I am.
TK
That's amazing. So did you start by watching Series seven like that was your first series you watched?
Unquietspirit
No, I don't think so. I did look back at my YouTube history at one point and traced how I watched it, but I don't remember exactly now. But I think I actually watched Series four first because of Noel Fielding. I'm a big fan of him as well. And then I sort of skipped around a lot. But as I was watching Series seven, that's when I was like, oh, there's a fic here. I just saw the storyline in my head as I was watching and started writing it.
TK
That’s amazing. All right. So you are going to talk with me today about what people should know about RPF and specifically what - we're going to call them “celebrities,” should know about RPF. So obviously we are in a very special kind of fandom where the hosts of the show that the RPF is being written about, are actively seeking out fanfic of themselves, that may or may not include other people from Taskmaster. And they're shouting it out, they’re name dropping, they're reading segments from it on Seth Meyers. Now, obviously these people such as Greg and Alex don't necessarily see themselves as a fan of the show. They're they're part of the show, obviously, but they're not like in the fandom necessarily. They don't know anything about it. What should people know about RPF who haven't been in the fandom at all? And then what should celebrities know about RPF that may or may not be written directly about them?
Unquietspirit
Okay. Yeah, sure. So first I just want to say that I am speaking only for myself, but my views do align with the majority viewpoint most of the time in fandom. I'm just saying that to be like, I'm not going to lead astray any celebrities that might be listening to this if they ever do. I'm giving an accurate impression to the best of my ability of what fandom’s like.
So I feel like fanfic really used to be sort of like this hidden thing that nobody talked about. I mean, like I said, I didn't know that fanfic existed when I started writing it. But now it's sort of like crossed into the mainstream because everybody knows that 50 Shades of Gray was a fanfic. There's other movies and stuff being made from fanfic. So everybody has heard of it now, and they probably think that they know what it is. But unless you're actually in fandom, you don't really know all the details of it. So that's what I wanted to talk about.
One of the things I think is a really great sort of overview is an article that came out in Time Magazine, years ago. I don't know exactly when it came out. It was like when the last Harry Potter book came out, because it's called The Boy Who Lived Forever. And it's an overview of fandom and fan culture. And it's a really great article, but one of the quotes that I pulled out about it, about fanfic writers is: “They’re fans, but they're not silent, couch-bound consumers of media. The culture talks to them and they talk back to the culture in its own language.” And that really captures the essence of transformative fandom. And my experience is, we take what the culture gives to us and we're like, we're not just going to accept this, we're going to reimagine it. We're going to put it out there in our own version.
It's sort of transgressive in that way, which I really like. So one of the things that might not be obvious is: who is writing fanfic? I feel like people might have an idea of a typical nerdy dude, middle-aged white guy, and it's about spacemen or something, writing Star Wars fanfic. And yeah, I'm sure there are people like that, but most people who write fanfic are the people who want different stories from what they see in the culture, right? So they are more likely to be queer, AFAB, neurodivergent, people of color. All of those things together, than a mainstream fan would be. And a lot of us, like myself, have been writing fanfic since before we knew what it was. I was six writing [about] my favorite cartoons, you know? It used to be the innate part of human nature for a lot of people.
TK
I definitely agree with that. I, like you, was writing fanfic before I knew what it was. Based on video games that I was playing when I was a kid. And, mostly just video games, honestly. Did I write fanfic about shows? I don't think I did. I think it was just video games that I played. So I definitely agree with that portion of it. Like personally, from my personal experience and also having also been in the Harry Potter fandom for a really, really long time, growing up with it, going to the midnight book releases, you know, it was definitely like a family thing. But then it became an online thing and then it was, it wasn't RPF, but it was a lot of fanfiction, which I both wrote and was a copy editor for for a couple years. It used to be really fun, but now, of course, that J.K. Rowling is a transphobe, I’m not really in that fandom anymore. So that's unfortunate.
I had personally not known even about RPF until just recent years, I think, because I had known about it I think because some K-pop bands or something, [people] were doing RPF about K-pop bands or something, and I was like, oh, okay, I guess that makes sense. And then of course, I watched Taskmaster, and then I only realized when Alex brought up fic in Series 15 that I paused the video and I was like, hold up. What?! And I went to AO3. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay, that's a thing.
Unquietspirit
Yeah. It's so funny to me that there's this divide. It seems to be between people who are like, don't know that the fanfic exists until he brought it up and people who watch it and are immediately like, there's fanfic. Let me look at it.
TK
There definitely feels like there's two kinds of people. Where it's like, “Of course there's going to be fanfic,” and “Oh my gosh, there's what?!” I don't know how Greg and Alex interact with fandom spaces, period. Not even talking about Taskmaster, but from what I have perceived, and this is only basing it off of when Alex and Greg read/sung, an RPF fic about themselves on The Horne Section podcast, Alex seemed to bring it up quite casually, and Greg was completely blown out of the water.
And so it's kind of, Alex is, in this situation, Alex is you, where he's like, “Of course there's fanfic written about us.” And, Greg is me, where I'm like, “What? Like what? Since when?” So keeping that in mind, obviously every person/celebrity is going to have a different take on RPF, whether or not it's about themselves. But coming from a fan standpoint, what are the key points or the most important things that you would say are paramount to someone knowing about RPF?
Unquietspirit
So I think that there's a lot of misconceptions within an outside fandom. There's misconceptions about fandom generally, really. A lot of people think that all fanfic is smut. And, you know, a lot of it is smut, but not all of it. And actually, I think the majority on AO3 is not rated Explicit. But it's also important when you're looking at fanfic that's smutty is like, who wrote this and why did they write this? Because it's not the same as pornography that's created for and by straight men for the male gaze. It's different when it's created by a young, queer, AFAB, neurodivergent person. The intention is different. You have to look at it differently or you're not going to understand it. So that's one thing that for fandom in general and for RPF, is important to keep in mind, and for RPF, I feel like there's this sort of perception that we're doing it to get their attention and we want them to shout us out. And a lot of us, I didn't want him to shout me out. I thought it was funny when he did, but I wasn't looking for that. I actually had the “Alex do not read” tag on my fic. Which he didn't, he didn't read the tag.
It's not really about connecting with the creators so much as it's about connecting with each other and having a community with each other. We write stories for each other. We have exchanges and we have a group chat where we talk to each other. It's about that community connection.
And there's actually sort of a trend right now in fandom, I would say. I see a lot of posts on Tumblr about this, about how people are becoming more passive fans in fandom and not interacting as much, not leaving comments as much. And people are really concerned about this is destroying this part of fandom that we all cherish.
And then another thing about RPF is people think it comes out of a parasocial relationship that's unhealthy. So first I just want to say that it's possible to have healthy parasocial relationships. Almost everybody has some sort of a parasocial relationship. And they do benefit both the fans and the celebrities. There's another Time Magazine article actually called In Defense of Parasocial Relationships that goes over this. In studies that have been done about how they, for fans, increase confidence, decrease loneliness, because of that connection with other fans, inspire creativity. Not even just fanfic, but maybe your favorite celebrity is a musician and you want to learn how to play an instrument so you can do covers of their songs or something.
And then there was also this tool developed by psychologists called the Celebrity Attitude Scale, which is online. You can take it yourself, to measure the level of your parasocial connection to a celebrity. And they divide it into three groups at the end. And only the third group is one that is associated with unhealthy behavior and poor mental health, sort of things. And it's only like 3 to 5% of people, they say falls in that group, which I think is high actually, because even in fandom, I've only known like 2 or 3 people that I would say would fall in that group. So of all the years I've been in fandom, that's the amount of behavior I've seen that crosses that line. I think most fans are in the second category, which is, they call it Intense Personal Connection, but it's not unhealthy. And I'm not even in that category. I'm in the first category. So I'm kind of an outlier with the fandom.
So RPF specifically, it's stigmatized within fandom, even though it has this long history. Shakespeare wrote about real people. Homer wrote about real people, even up to today. Noel Fielding's series about Dick Turpin. He's doing RPF of a murderer. That's literally what that show is. It's RPF of a murderer. And, you know, not even just historical RPF exists in TV today. There's The Crown, I think had a made up scene about Princess Diana beating Prince Charles. And, I forget the name of it. There's that series on Netflix about the scam artist Anna, Becoming Anna, or whatever it's called, where at the beginning, parts of this are completely made up, like it's RPF. Just put on television.
So just to keep that in mind, even though it's stigmatized, there is a long history of this. It does seem to be something, again, that's innate in human nature to make up stories about real people that you don't know. I think it's important for celebrities to keep in mind that it is stigmatized and that it has led to doxxing fans. And so when you're a celebrity and you have that sort of influence over the rest of your fan base that might not agree with this, just have that in your head when you're talking about it.
TK
I think the thing that's really special about Greg and Alex is that whenever they bring it up, they're always so kind about it. Like they never bring it up in a way that's, I mean, Greg will make the occasional comment that's like, “All those perverts on the internet” or whatever, but it's all very good natured, lighthearted type of comments. And especially with the Seth Meyers recording recently where, Alex is, I think what he's trying to say is, “It's this horrible, horrible stuff that Greg does to me.” But what he ends up saying is, “Horrible, horrible - now the writing is good! Let me point that out. The writing is good. I don't have a problem with that.” And so, every time they bring it up, they're always very kind about, “I enjoyed the writing of this, the writing is good. It's not something that we're bringing up to make fun of the author. We're making fun of our relationship with each other, me and Alex.” You know, if Greg is saying that, because it is funny, and it is really interesting to delve down into what their relationship is, for sure on the show and in the Taskmaster canon, because the canon is just wild to begin with. There's just so many contradictions and like Dom/sub dynamics and everything like that. But I really do appreciate that whenever they do shout out fic, it's always with a certain kind of reverence, almost, of like, yeah, these people are good. They know what they're doing.
Unquietspirit
I really appreciate that as well, because not every public reaction is like that. And we don't know exactly what the reaction was when they actually first learned about it. I think maybe Greg, we do, maybe that was on the podcast, his first actual time learning about it. But with Alex, we don't know. So we don't know, maybe he had a bad reaction at first and then he came around to it. But I do appreciate that in public they do walk this line of, yeah, it's weird, but it's also funny. It's good. We don't really mind it that much.
TK
Yeah, for sure. And I think that having them be aware of fanfic and the fact that there's specifically fanfic about the two of them and there's a lot of it. And they just really lean into it and everything. I mean, at this point, I think that they're just having a lot of fun. Because in the New York City Q&A that they just did last month, I was in the audience for it and during probably the first ten minutes of the Q&A, Greg brought up fanfic of his own volition. There wasn't a question of being like, “So what do you think about the fanfic that's being written about you two?” No, Greg just brought that up on his own. And he was laughing the entire time. And he's like, “It's just amazing stuff, you know? It's some of the hottest stuff I've ever been involved in.” And just really having fun with it, which is hilarious.
Unquietspirit
It’s funny that it was of their own volition. Last time they were in New York, I went to that Q&A event, which, if you know about it, it was a very small room. I think it was 200 people in the room, and I was literally about six feet in front of them. And so when they were reading out the audience questions, one of them was, “What's your favorite fanfic?” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” This was like two months after they had mentioned mine as, that's Alex's favorite. I was like, “Oh my God, if he says it again…” I'm sitting here in front of him next to my mother, mind you, my mom’s sitting next to me. I'm not going to be able to hide my reaction. Luckily, by that point, he had completely forgotten my fic. So he was talking about other ones. But yeah, it was really funny. At that point it was still in response to a question and now they're just bringing it up by themselves.
TK
Just, just a fun game that they get to play with the fans, which is really fun, honestly, because I know that a lot of FPF in other fandoms, they don't get that kind of back and forth with the people that they write about or the creators of the show, or whatever. And so it is definitely in those spaces, a lot like what you said earlier, which was, just writing fic for the sake of writing fic to just have fun with it. And most of us, I feel like, in the Taskmaster fandom, we're not out here writing fic so that they bring it up.That just that just happens to be a side effect of it. But I do think that it's a really fun game that we all play with Greg and Alex, of kind of throwing the ball to one another and seeing what they have to say about it, which is, it's just a good time.
Unquietspirit
I think that is an important point to bring up that not everyone is even comfortable with the creator interacting with their fic. Some are actually very, very like, no, I would die. I would literally die if they mentioned anything to do with my fic. So if you're a celebrity, if there's an access barrier to a fic, there's a reason for that. And maybe pay attention to that. I don't want to go into too much detail, but there are fics that are sort of hidden away and there's a reason they're hidden away. And just, you know, keep that in mind.
Also, something that maybe isn't obvious within fandom: it's considered very bad manners to share the fact directly with the person that it's about. So if somebody has done that to you, if a fan has done that to you, just know that the rest of us don't think that's okay. But also, that's something that's just not obvious. We want to respect your boundaries. And you're right not to engage. When, on this most recent time on Seth Meyers, the way Seth sort of segued into asking them about it…
TK
I was just about to say that.
Unquietspirit
He sort of made it sound like somebody had sent them it, and I was like, no, we didn’t. We have not sent them anything!
TK
These guys are out here on their own actively seeking out these fics. Trust and believe, we are not emailing, tweeting Alex and Greg being like, “Oh, check this out!” No, no, no no no no no no no no no. If they want to bring up my fic on their own, totally fine, very very happy with it, but there's no way you would ever get me to send them anything. No. No. Nope.
And this is coming from someone who, I've had written about me and handed to me, and did not like that at all. And it was very well intentioned. It wasn't, the writing wasn't weird. It wasn't like I was in weird positions or doing weird stuff or anything like that, but it was a very uncomfortable feeling for me. If I wanted to seek out people writing fics about me, that's one thing, but having it handed to me and being like, “Here, we wrote a thing about you,” and I was like, “Okay, that's nice.” I definitely think that with Greg and Alex, they 100% do not have to bring up fanfic at all. They did not have to print out multiple titles and excerpts from fanfic to read out on Seth Meyers. They chose to do that. And I feel like that's a huge difference between somebody sending them something and them being like, “We're going to actively seek this out, we're going to print it out, and we're going to treat it like this is part of what we're going to do today.”
Unquietspirit
Yeah, yeah. And I've had, not the same experience, because it wasn’t RPF. But I do write original fiction as well. And somebody sent me fanfic of my characters and even that I was like, “No, no, no, no. If I wanted to see this, I would go look. I don't need to see this.” I feel like there's a difference between writing RPF of somebody who is famous, on TV and films famous, versus writing RPF of somebody who's not at that level at all.
TK
For sure, for sure.
Unquietspirit
And the difference is because there's a persona when you're at a certain level of fame. Most RPF fans, we don't view it as we're writing fanfiction about the real person. We're writing fanfiction about their persona, and I don't mean like a comedy persona.
I'm going to use James Acaster as an example here because he's got a persona that's distinctive. So it's easy to explain. So there's James Acaster, the stage comedy persona, cartoon man dude that he does. And then when he's doing an interview where he's not trying to be funny, then he's James Acaster doing an interview, but that's still a public persona, right? Then there's James Acaster at home playing with his cats. And we don't know that guy. And I'm sure he would be the first person to be like, “Even if you've seen everything that I've put out publicly, you don't know me.”
So when I'm writing my character, who's also called James Acaster, I'm drawing inspiration from his comedy persona and his non-comedy public persona. But I don't know anything beyond that. So I can't be drawing inspiration from him as a real person. You know?
And with Greg and Alex, it's even more complex because they have the Taskmaster and the Assistant, and then they have their comedy personas, and then they have their non-comedy - actually, Alex doesn't really have a non-comedy public persona, which is weird.
TK
There's a lot of different personas. That we will talk about shortly. But before we get to that, we're going to play a little game. But before we get to the game, are there any final points you want to convey to someone who's famous that is encountering RPF, or do you think we've pretty much covered everything?
Unquietspirit
I think it's just important to know that you are an outsider. I don't say that to be mean. It's just, be aware that you're an outsider. You're stepping into a culture you don't know. You're probably not going to understand it. Be aware that you're a guest in this space. And like I said, keep in mind that your public reaction or how you talk about it publicly is going to influence the rest of your fans and how they talk about it as well. And we have seen cases where celebrities will say something very negative and then people get harmed because of that. So keep that in mind as well.
TK
All right. Well, let's move on to the game section. So this game is called Fact or Fanfic. Because as we know, in the Taskmaster universe, Greg and Alex say the most ridiculous things to each other, and it just seems like the fic writes itself. So we've come up with a game called Fact or Fanfic, in which I will read you three separate quotes, and all of these quotes are going to be Greg's introduction to Alex at the beginning of an episode of Taskmaster. And you will tell me whether you think it was something that someone wrote in a fic that they said, or if it was something that they actually said, so that's what the game is.
All right. So first one, here we go. “And next to me, a man who confided to me while drunk that he broke his wrist in a horse wanking competition and he didn't even get third place. It's Little Alex Horne!”
Unquietspirit
Oh, my God, that's hard. I want to say that’s a fic?
TK
It is a fic! That's my fic, actually.
Unquietspirit
Oh, really?
TK
Yeah. I wrote ten episode banter sections very recently, that’s called That's Our Show.
Unquietspirit
You did a good job because that sounds exactly like something Greg would say. The only reason I said it was fic, I was like, Channel Four probably wouldn't allow him to say “horse wanking.”
TK
Yeah, Good times. That was number one. Okay. Number two. “Now, he's small, he's hairy, and he sleeps in my underpants. It's little Alex Horne!”
Unquietspirit
Pretty sure that's fact. That sounds familiar.
TK
It is fact. That one was from Series 12, episode six. Okay, last one. [laughing] These are so hard to read with a straight face.
“And next to me, like a blob of mayonnaise that's dripped out of your sandwich onto your trousers, there to remain a nagging reminder of all the clumsy mistakes in life you've ever made, it's little Alex Horne!”
Unquietspirit
I like that, but I think that's fic as well.
TK
That one's fact, actually.
Unquietspirit
Really? What’s that from?
TK
That’s Series 6, episode 4.
Unquietspirit
Ah. I don't rewatch Series six that often, which is weird because it's the one where they kiss.
TK
Nice. Okay, well, you will get a little trophy on the website, so good job. All right. So continuing the conversation. Now, Ed Gamble has brought this up a few times, I think mostly on the Off Menu podcast - or actually, it's probably been on the Off Menu podcast and on the official Taskmaster podcast, which is the concept of kayfabe.
Now, I know that Ed is a huge wrestling fan, and I know nothing about wrestling at all. But I know that you know a little bit about kayfabe. So talk to me a little bit about kayfabe. What is it and how does it relate to the Taskmaster universe?
Unquietspirit
So it's really interesting because I independently sort of created a post on Tumblr about kayfabe and how it can relate to Taskmaster RPF and other forms of RPF as well. This is sort of, all I'm going to say here [is] it’s more based on my personal opinion and experience than what we talked about before. So just to put that out there, and I'm also not really an expert in pro wrestling, but I did do some research before we started the interview here. So, like you said, Ed Gamble is a big fan of pro wrestling. His wife, Charlie, actually does independent pro wrestling. She's in a gym for it. I don't know what it is. It's called Play Fight or something. It's pretty cool.
But kayfabe is, it's spelled K-A-Y-F-A-B-E, and it's the tacit agreement between the wrestlers and the fans to pretend that the staged or scripted events are genuine, and the play acting that is involved in maintaining the illusion of genuineness. So in pro wrestling, it really actually started as a way to fix fights for gambling. They wanted to make money off the gambling, so they wanted to fix the fight. So they would just say, “Okay, you're going to win this fight.” And that was all it was. And then they discovered that if they add a storyline into why this guy is winning, it actually brings in more crowds, and again, more money. So capitalism, that's a key thing basically.
And then it was sort of like an open secret. Obviously, wrestling is very over the top. You don't really believe it. Even if you didn't know that it's fake, you would be like, yeah, that's fake. But it wasn't confirmed that it was scripted or staged until 1989, I learned, which is when Vince McMahon went to the New Jersey legislature and was like, “I don't want to pay money to your athletic commission, and I shouldn't have to, because I'm not actually doing an athletic competition. It's an athletic performance, is what I'm doing,” basically, is what he said. So that day that he said that and put that on the record is sort of, it's been referred to as the day kayfabe died in wrestling, but it didn't really die. It still continues. It's just, the audience is more aware of it now. So it's become like I said, this tacit agreement to just enter into this make-believe world, basically.
TK
So how does kayfabe relate to Taskmaster?
Unquietspirit
So I would say, what happens with Taskmaster? It's not exactly the same thing as pro wrestling, but I like it as a framework because it's that shared tacit agreement part of it that I think is useful. It's like when we as fans talk about Greg and Alex's relationship as if they're actually in a sexual relationship. We are joining in with the playacting that they're doing. Right? So we're creating this shared fiction together without acknowledging it. Explicitly, because we all know that it's fake. So, that's the main thing that I would say is a good parallel.
Also, wrestling is scripted. But I didn't know this until I was researching it. There is improv in wrestling as well. They know who's going to end or who's going to win the match. But they can tell each other during the match, “Okay, I'm going to do this move and you do this move,” and you can see this sometimes, or that's actually why a lot of wrestlers have long hair, so that they can hide their mouth when they're talking to each other during the match to improv it. And also when you see a wrestler on a mic in the ring, just being like, “I'm going to beat this guy up.” Some of that's improv as well.
But you can tell sometimes because they're not that great at it. I'm sorry. I'm not really a fan of wrestling. So that really mirrors that in Taskmaster on the show and off. There are bits that are scripted and bits that they're just improving as they go. And you can see sort of the negotiation between them happening silently sometimes. And they keep - the kiss in particular I feel like was planned. But then there was sort of a negotiation of how they're going to do it. And some other moments like that.
TK
When I was at the Q&A in New York, Greg and Alex weren't there as the Taskmaster and his Assistant. They weren't in their outfits, their Taskmaster outfits. They were in their nice clothes, regular clothes. But they also weren't - it didn't feel like they were… So we were saying earlier that they have a lot of different types of personas. So they have their Taskmaster persona, they have their studio Taskmaster persona because that's different than the on screen - I'm talking about the interstitials and stuff like that. Or the prerecorded bits or anything like that. But then they also have Greg and Alex go do Taskmaster related stuff, and that's a whole separate persona because they'll do interviews together where they're not quite their personas, and they'll talk about, you know, their personas on Taskmaster.
But when they were on the Q&A, it was really interesting because their personas were not quite the Taskmaster studio ones and not quite the normal interview ones, but something somewhere between. And I think it was because they had such a big group of their fans there. And the thing that I'm specifically thinking about is that after Greg had brought up fanfic, like much later, we were doing a live task, and during the live task, Alex had to lay down on the ground on his back, with his mouth open for people to fly paper airplanes into.
And the way that he was laying down on the stage was, Greg was sitting right next to him, with his legs spread and Alex says, “I don't like this view.” And we all laugh, you know? And Greg leans back, unbuttons his jacket and leans back in and says, “You're not used to seeing it with trousers on, are you?”
And he did not need to say that. That's not at all what he needed to say. But he chose to say that. So I feel like, maybe that is kind of one of those kayfabe situations where he knows full well what he's doing. He's riling us up. It was so funny. Because again they're not there as Taskmaster and Assistant. They're there as Greg and Alex. So it definitely wasn't something that needed to happen. It for sure was not scripted. But that definitely comes to mind when kayfabe is kind of brought up.
But relating to that, in our group chat, we were talking about kayfabe and somebody said that they love using the concept of kayfabe because it captures the camp and the joy of fandom. And to me, camp is a word that is very queer coded. Because I did not know what camp was until I started watching Drag Race and drag shows, and if you ask me right now, “What is camp?” I can't say words that would make sense in a sentence. I just have to think about the costuming and the characters and all this kind of stuff. But is that another parallel that you see in the Taskmaster fandom?
Unquietspirit
Yeah, definitely. And camp is really, really hard to define, as demonstrated by, I think a few years ago now, the Met Gala's theme was camp. And then everybody didn't know what camp was. So it created this whole conversation about, what is camp?
If you actually go back to one of the first mentions of camp in print, it says, “You can't camp about something you don't take seriously. You're not making fun of it. You're making fun out of it. You're expressing what is basically serious to you in terms of fun and artifice and elegance.” And that's from The World in the Evening by Christopher Isherwood.
So it's that combination of taking a serious subject and making fun with it, in a very artificial, heightened way. And, like you said, drag is probably the most famous form of camp, but also wrestling is camp, even though wrestling is not really - I don't think people think of it as a queer thing. It is camp. I really like that. When that was pointed out, I was like, oh yeah, it does capture that camp aspect as well. And, you know, camp has always been sort of like this tool for queer transgression. Camp was used at Stonewall to subvert the authority of the police. There were protesters doing high kicks like Rockettes and singing to the cops. It was very a campy thing. And, you know, drag is like that transgression as well. And I would say that fandom is camp and it's a form of queer transgression. Like I was saying at the beginning, I think the transgression part is what I really like about fandom, and RPF, reimagining what reality can be, and not just accepting what is presented to you. So yeah, I really like that parallel.
TK
So is there anything else relating to kayfabe that we haven't talked about that you'd like to bring up before we wrap up?
Unquietspirit
I just think it's fun how committed to it Alex is. He's like a wrestler before 1989, where they would not drop kayfabe in public, like people would - there's crazy stories of what wrestlers did to keep from breaking kayfabe before it was actually officially broken. And Alex is like that. He's pathologically committed to the bit and it's really jarring when he does actually break it, which the only really clear case I can think of is the first time they went on Seth Meyers last year, he completely broke kayfabe. And I was like, this is so weird. He's talking about how he created the show and he's actually the boss and everything.
And then Greg tried to go into it. Greg tried to start to bring in the persona, and Alex was like, “I'm worried they're going to think that we're not joking.” He sort of shut it down, which is really weird.
TK
Poor guy. He's so scared of American audiences or something, because this year he was like, “I'm not comfortable with talking about it on American television.” I mean, valid, but, you know…
Unquietspirit
We’re not that scary.
TK
Our country may be a mess right now, but you can be yourselves. We're not going to we're not going to tear you apart for it.
Unquietspirit
We're not going to boot you out of America. It’s okay.
TK
In fact, keep being yourselves because that's what's getting a lot of us through this time, right now, honestly. Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I think Alex has a very strong habit of “yes-and”ing into the ground, which you love to see. I mean, it can be so awkward and, I forget what episode it was, but when Greg is like, “I'm just going to let you run this bit into the ground until there's pin drop silence, and then I can continue the show.” And Alex just keeps going. I think it’s about the hen nights he does, or whatever, but he just keeps going. And it's so funny. and I'm sure that there are people out there that would be like, “Okay, let's wrap this up, I'm kind of sick of this.” I never get sick of when Alex does that. It's just so, so funny to me. It's peak comedy.
Unquietspirit
He's very, very good at just letting the uncomfortableness be there.
TK
Yeah, I really love it. And something that I'm going to have, another couple guests that I haven't recorded yet, but we're going to be talking about costuming and costume designs in Taskmaster. But I think one of the things that comes to mind for me, for camp, specifically in Taskmaster is when Alex started the show, in Series 1, I think he had a nice jacket and really nice shoes, like shoes you would wear to a wedding. And then, of course, by a few series in, he's wearing this crap jacket and these plastic shoes and all this kind of - and it's just the campiness of: you're wearing these horrible clothes that don't really fit you very well. And you could be wearing something really nice because you did wear something really nice at the very beginning.
Unquietspirit
Yeah. I think even Alex's wardrobe out of costume is very camp, like his Golden Girls sweatshirts. It's very camp.
TK
All his brightly colored jumpers and stuff. And his golden shoes. I love his sense of style. It's incredible. All right. So we're going to wrap up this podcast. So, obviously you are on AO3. You're also on Tumblr. Do you want to tell us where we can find you online?
Unquietspirit
So I'm Unquietspirit on AO3, and UnquietspiritAO3 on Tumblr. And that's literally the only active social media that I have. So if you see anyone anywhere else claiming to be me, that's not me. I just say that because somebody did actually do that.
TK
Are you serious?
Unquietspirit
Somebody did do that. Yeah. After that episode dropped, somebody was like, “That's my fic.” And I was like, no, it's not.
TK
No. What a weird thing to claim. That’s wild.
Unquietspirit
I was like, have you looked at the fic? I don't think you want to claim this one.
TK
That's an interesting thing to try to steal. Anyway, we're going to end here with any fanwork recommendations from our wonderful, beautiful little Taskmaster fandom. What's your favorite thing that you want to shout out?
Unquietspirit
I want to shout out an artist who I love, both as an artist and as a person. They're an amazing person. It's Koomaqu, Koom as we call them. And they have so much amazing art. I actually own some of it, physically. I got some sent to me, and the one in particular that I want to shout out, though, is the portrait of Greg from chest up holding the little tiny Alex by the back of his jacket. You probably know what I'm talking about.
TK
I sure do.
Unquietspirit
That one is like, I love that one. It always reminds me of the part in Peter Pan where they hold Tinkerbell by her wings and slap her on the bottom. So yeah, that's my shout out. Is that one artwork.
TK
Their art is gorgeous. I also now recently have prints and stickers and pins and all sorts of yummy stuff. We'll be sure to link that on the website. Well, thanks so much for coming on and talking about kayfabe and RPF and all that good stuff. We've really enjoyed having you. So thank you.
Unquietspirit
Thank you. It was a lot of fun.
TK
All right. We'll see you online! Bye.
VO
And that was TK speaking with Unquietspirit on fic, RPF and why people write it. You can find a list of the fanworks discussed on this episode on our website: tftaskmaster.uk. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss next week's episode about The Horne Section and the Taskmaster Live Experience. If you have any questions, fanwork recommendations, suggestions, or anything else, you can email us at fans@tftaskmaster.uk.