Sacred Rhythms: Finding Balance in Worship Ministry

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Welcome to the Worship Table podcast, a space created for worship pastors and creative leaders who long for deeper connection, real conversations and sustainable ministry.
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Around this table, we talk honestly about the joys and the challenges of leading worship, offering encouragement, wisdom and care for your journey.
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But this podcast is just the start of the conversation.
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A real connection happens inside our online community over at theworshiptablecom, so let's pull up a chair and let's get started.
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Guys, we're doing it.
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We are.
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We're here.
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Andy Crispin, Michael Neal, Thanks for sitting down and doing this today.
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This is fun.
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Yeah, can you cut out that coughing?
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I just did.
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You should be a pro by now, andy.
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That's a terrible way to start a podcast.
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You're hacking your lungs out.
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Worship Table Podcast, episode 1.
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In this episode, I think we're just going to talk about what the Worship Table is, why you guys started this and launched this, for what reason.
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Before we get into all that, I'd love to just do a quick little catch up.
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What are you guys doing these days?
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What are you getting into?
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Just for the people that are watching or been following along, give us a little update, andy, you first, oh me.
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What are you getting into these days?
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Well, trying to stay out of trouble when you're not Caleb cruising and all that stuff.
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Yeah, so you know, I was worship pastor full-time at my church in Oklahoma, at Church on the Move in Tulsa, and I left that full-time position in 2020 just because, I don't know.
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I just felt like I wanted to go hang around other worship pastors across the country and you get to a certain point of overflow.
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I think with any job that you do, you wanna share that with as many people as possible.
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So I just had so many opportunities starting around 2019, 2020 to get into the lives of other worship pastors and kind of help them in their journey.
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So I've been doing that a lot, a lot of consulting, coaching.
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I've got a podcast called One Degree of Andy that is now in its third season Shameless plug, which is fantastic.
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It is a great podcast.
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It's fantastic.
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I have a lot of fun doing it, so I sit down with, of course, with my days in For Him.
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I've met so many people in the 80s, 90s and 2000s in Christian music, so we just go back and have those conversations.
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Who's been the interview so far that you've been like man, I can't believe I'm having this conversation right now.
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Oh well, rush Taff.
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Twyla Paris, Jeff Moore, Gary Chapman.
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He hasn't had Michael Neal on yet.
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I don't know.
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Is he saving Neal and Webb?
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Yeah, we're going to let him build his audience a little bit.
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Sorry, didn't mean to bring that up at the table here.
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That's awkward.
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No, so that's going on.
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I've got a radio show that's uh, internationally syndicated, called worship with andy christman, and that's been on for we're coming up on 20 years next year wow, amazing.
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I'll have to do something special with that.
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So I just play two hours of worship music and interview people like phil wickham and chris Wickham and Chris Tomlin and Brandon Lake.
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You didn't know Michael Neal on that yet.
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Wow, on that one either.
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This is going to be a really awkward conversation.
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I'm here to just bring us together.
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This is more of an intervention.
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Michael, would you like to be on my podcast and my radio show Me?
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Yeah, you've got quite the story, yeah.
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That's amazing, sorry, yeah, that's amazing, sorry, yeah.
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So we actually met on a retreat.
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Yeah, that's where we met for the first time and it was great because by the end of the retreat all the guys on there were like hey, have you talked to Andy yet?
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Have you talked to him?
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It was really just your passion for sitting down one-on-one with guys in an environment like that where you kind of shine and you just love having those conversations.
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Well, there's a caveat about that.
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Michael was supposed to go on that.
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Oh, that's right, yeah, and he backed out last minute.
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I did, and I was 20 years older than everybody at that retreat and so I think that was part of the you know grandpa's over there sitting by the creek.
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You were Sitting in his coffee.
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You camped out by the creek and it was like we all had like our time with Andy go down by the creek.
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It was really nice, but it was beautiful.
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So, yeah, that's how we, that's how we connected, and then we, we, yeah we've worked together quite a bit since then.
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Yeah, it's been awesome.
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And, michael, we we just moved down here to Northwest Houston and serving on the team here at Champion Forest, it's just been amazing looking after, you know, the creative ministries and all that.
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So, years as a worship pastor, as you know, and just walking alongside guys as well, I feel like I've been doing it for a hundred years.
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It hasn't been a hundred, but in you know, in church years it has been.
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But, yeah, so now this season of life just being friends with Andy all these years and you, and it's just the right time to kind of come alongside guys and encourage them.
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And creative leaders in the church face a lot of unique challenges and so we just our heart is for that specifically, and so this is pretty cool to get to.
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Yeah, I love that.
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As you were talking, I reflected back on one of my earliest memories of you so our families go way back and I remember you were coming through town doing a concert I think maybe at my dad's church or in the area, and I was so young but my dad I don't know if you remember this he made us play music for you guys.
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Oh yeah, he's like it was me and my little brother.
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I must have been like maybe 10 years old and this was like you know, our heroes are coming through town and dad was like get up there, boys, and it was just like you and Devin sitting out in the empty auditorium and dad's making us like play.
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Oh yeah, you put on a concert, even in this moment.
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Yeah, well, you all played every instrument and you kind of like swapped around.
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Hey, you play drums now.
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Hey, you and I was just like these kids have it For us it was like the equivalent of like Michael Jordan's in the gym.
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Go shoot some free throws.
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You know, that's how it felt Like what are we doing, Dad?
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You're killing us.
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But well, this is great.
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I wanted to just hear a.
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It's been going for a little while now.
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You guys have been doing some great work with worship pastors around the country, but just give us the heart behind it, the vision behind this.
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Well, Michael, I think I called you about two and a half years ago.
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I remember where I was.
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I think that my wife and I were in Las Vegas having breakfast somewhere by a pool and I just kept seeing the same thing, over and over, with worship pastors that I was coaching and mentoring, that there was a lack of community.
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The artists in the church felt a little isolated from the rest of the staff, a little bit misunderstood.
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You know, I've felt that way my whole career, just like a little bit of fish out of water, being, you know, talented enough to be on stage and lead music and lead a crowd, but a little left-footed when it came to jumping into executive meetings and all the things you got to do through the week at the church.
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And it just didn't.
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Those clothes didn't fit me very well, and so over 20 years, I kind of learned how to adapt and I I, but I saw myself in the journeys of these younger worship pastors that I was, that I was starting to work with and, like I said, I started noticing a pattern that you know.
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I just feel like we need to gather worship pastors together and say, hey, it's okay to feel this way, it's okay, we're all struggling with the same thing.
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You know it's not so much about you need to lead worship more this way, or you know, here's how you can lead a band better or grow your team more, and there's there's lots of organizations out there that can help you do that.
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I just felt like we needed more of a brotherhood of of guys coming together and, you know, locking arms and going, hey, let's encourage each other, you know, so that we can all get across the finish line the right way.
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And so you had that same heart and we connected instantly on that in those conversations, and to me, that's kind of where the idea for the worship table was born.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean it resonated with me.
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You know, we all get those calls from you know different folks at different times where they're in a struggle, they're in a staffing situation or they're having an issue with relating to their senior pastor or they've got drama on the team that they have to sort through.
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Like you said, you can feel pretty misunderstood and maybe a little ill-equipped in some areas to kind of, you know, we're kind of expected to be in a lot of different camps, you know the artist, the leader, the pastor, the shepherd, the caregiver, all the things together.
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And so I've did my whole life I feel like I've been, you know, reaching out for guys to say, you know, I need you, I need you to kind of help coach me.
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What can I learn from you?
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What can I?
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Because I always feel like I'm in just a little bit of you know, deep water, you know, and so I think that really resonates with a lot of guys out there.
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You know that they, uh, they sense it too, and if we humble ourselves and kind of go, okay, I need some, I need some, you know brothers, to walk with me in this, it just, it just resonated with me completely and um, and we've.
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We've seen even the, the, the things we've already done.
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We've just seen the connection the guys are making.
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So yeah it's, it's a big need.
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Yeah you said.
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I love how you said we find ourselves underwater a lot and that's a really good way to explain that.
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You know the weekends come with shocking regularity.
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They just never end.
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We used to say Sunday comes every three days.
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It's wild and we find ourselves.
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If we don't have community, if we don't have things to, we don't have people around us to unpack what we're feeling, and that can be dismissed for the way we're feeling and the way you know, what does God want to do through us, through music and worship, that can all get buried under the duty of keep going, keep going.
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The church has got to grow, your team's got to grow, you've got to grow, but everything rides on your performance this Sunday.
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So just remember that and you can.
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You can wake up three or four years later and wonder how did I get here?
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How do I survive?
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this.
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What percentage of of worship leading, being a worship pastor, is actual Sunday, though?
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You know, as you're talking, I'm like there's this cocktail of leadership and navigating meetings and leading teams and a lot of people.
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The talent is.
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What you said, Andy, is what kind of got them in that position in the first place?
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So that was there, but now it's like, okay, we need to be a good theologian, we need to know our scripture, we also need to be a good executive leader in some cases, or know how to at least, and we need to be a volunteer recruiter and builder ministry.
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You know, the stage part, or even the part that we may have been allured to in the beginning I want to do that ends up being such a small percentage of what we actually get to do.
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Have you found that to be?
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true.
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Yeah, it ends up being backwards, you know, for the vast majority of us.
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Why did we get the job that we have?
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Not because we're great in the office Monday through Friday.
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It's because we can get up on that stage and sing and lead music and and draw people into the presence of god.
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And that gets that, gets buried throughout the week and and again years down the road.
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It becomes.
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It becomes a things thing we're judged on ultimately, but it's almost the last thing that we prioritize during a week and it just flips everything upside down.
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And as an artist, you just want to express yourself.
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We're weird creatures, we're hard to understand sometimes, and so a lot of the mentoring that I do with worship pastors is let's go find that first love again.
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You know, that's why they brought you in Right Was because you connect well with people on that stage and you're getting to the stage empty.
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Well, and you lose the joy of doing it right, I mean eventually.
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You get to where like it just becomes a job.
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How have you guys been able to kind of sustain the joy of leading worship, leading other leaders, through the years, and continue to show up and do this with you know what fresh perspective and like what are some of the tools that have kept you in it, kept you faithful, kept you, you know, in the game all these years?
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Well, yeah, I don't.
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The thing you said too with regard to the, you know, the platform, um, we, uh, so many times are given a platform because of the gift that goes beyond what our emotional, uh infrastructure can handle, or the weight of the spiritual responsibility of being, yeah, that's a big one in that, in that role, and so it we get out out overe, get out overextended, and the scaffolding underneath is really shifty, and so for me, you know, sorry, I kind of went a different direction.
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No, this is great.
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I'm actually taking notes.
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This is good.
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But that piece of it kind of fortifying our internal life, our inner life, fortifying our sense of who we are, that it's not.
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You know, the identity isn't wrapped up in the gift.
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It's a stewardship issue with what we have to offer God and to offer others in service.
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But when that becomes the ultimate, the penultimate thing for us, then that's where it starts to crush our soul a little bit.
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And I, I would.
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I, I'd love to double down on that too.
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That, um, when you're going through things that you feel like you've got to keep private, you know that you can't share with anyone because if anybody found out.
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I'm not getting back on that stage and that stage, you know, like we said earlier, is why I got the job.
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It's, you know.
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You say your gift is not your identity, but I think it's a big part of who you are.
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It's not all of who you are, right, but again, it's why you're in the position you're in.
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And so to you know, to be struggling silently and thinking no one knows what I'm going through and if they did, then what's most precious to me gets taken away.
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For your voice and your talent to not be recognized and appreciated anymore is death for an artist.
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Yeah, that's real, and I think it just leads to depression.
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It leads to making really poor life decisions and we've seen that, haven't we, michael?
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We've seen it over and over and over again, with really good men and women in worship, pastor leadership, that they let it go too long without dealing with those root issues of man.
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This is a difficult, unique position that I'm in and where do I go?
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To be just gut level, honest, Like, what environment is what I love about the worship table?
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You know it's like creating an environment of space, whether it's on a retreat or it's in a, you know, discussion form, whatever environment it's in.
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But you know, if I could speak for you guys, cause I know like the part of your heart is creating an environment where you can feel absolutely safe to come with everything.
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To just lay it all, hey, here's what I'm wrestling with.
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Cause Michael, you said the weight of spiritual responsibility and I wrote that down because that can be crushing, especially when you're dealt a hand in life that you didn't see coming, for whatever reason.
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Now you got to get up and rely on your talent and you got to and you're singing these truths but you're not feeling those truths at the moment.
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Put the smile on, Put the smile on and perform and now call other people into something that you don't even know in that moment that you actually believe anymore.
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Or you're wrestling with there's a weight of like and it can be crushing if you don't like you said, stuart, that Well, that comes down to like integrity.
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Integrity is taken from the word integer, which means one, so everything is one, everything that's going on in here and everything that I'm saying and the behaviors that are happening, all are in alignment.
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And when we have to kind of execute something that is different than what's actually happening internally, there's a Delta there, there's a difference, and that's what creates stress.
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And so I think the worship table, a real part of what the worship table is doing, is fortifying, helping guys fortify the inner life so that they're bringing things into alignment.
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And when there is a fracture, when there is a Delta there, that they have a place to bring it, that there's a place to get healing and resources.
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Because a lot of times I mean what I see, I think all of us see at a certain point in life, whatever family of origin issues we bring into play, whatever the suitcases we bring into ministry that has the things of trauma, whatever issues that we bring in, if those things aren't actually, you know, dealt with they, they will be dealt with at some point, yeah, and so what ends up happening is it's like people have a train wreck in their life and you know they're, they're the car of their life gets t-boned, yep, right, and then they never get healing and they just drive with a broken axle, yeah, and so they bring that into so good the leadership.
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So they bring that into the leadership environments, they bring that into the sacred space of the tabernacle, the temple, when we're inviting people into worship, and so that's when, boy, it just can really crumble.
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Well, yeah, because you start going into compartmentalization or you start going into survival mode.
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Really, what do I have to do to survive this moment?
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Because, like you said, I'm having to stand up here and say and sing these things that I'm wrestling with.
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It's so powerful and I think for me, my default is to want to jump to like what's the fix?
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And I think there are things that we'll talk about over the course of this podcast, some tools and stuff.
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But what makes the worship table so beautiful, I think, is we just.
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It starts with connection and attunement.
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It starts with having a place to log on and just even be able to say or call or someone and say, hey, I'm not feeling, I'm not feeling it this Sunday.
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And there's something about a space where you can just attune, where other people then come in and don't try to fix you but just say man, I know what that feels like.
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Yeah, let me speak to that a second, because what I don't want people to think about the worship table is when we we gather uh leaders together we're saying okay we're going to purge you.
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We're going to find out what's wrong with you.
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Put the light over you.
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This is going to be traumatic.
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It's not what this is.
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No.
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What we're doing is creating a space to come together.
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It's it's as much as anything.
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It's preventative you know, and it's it's getting.
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It's getting people out of isolation that feel like they're alone and leadership is difficult.
00:18:47.674 --> 00:18:50.676
Leadership is lonely, Talent is lonely.
00:18:50.676 --> 00:18:59.675
You find yourself in this unique position of I'm not sure anyone understands me the people in the worship table.
00:18:59.675 --> 00:19:14.557
We understand you, we know what you're going through, Michael, you and I have been doing this a long time and we've seen just about everything there is to see in this thing called worship pastoring, so nothing surprises us.
00:19:14.557 --> 00:19:16.276
So, come on, let's just talk about it.
00:19:16.276 --> 00:19:19.220
Let's create a space to ask questions.
00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:20.415
I love asking questions.
00:19:20.415 --> 00:19:25.835
When I sit down with worship pastors, I'm like when's the last time you actually questioned what you're doing?
00:19:25.835 --> 00:19:27.479
It's okay.
00:19:27.499 --> 00:19:28.869
You need a space to do that.
00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:35.474
You might not be able to do that in a pastoral meeting or an executive meeting for fear of, you know, is this guy on our team?
00:19:35.474 --> 00:19:54.061
Well, you can come here and ask those questions and let's wrestle with them, let's figure this out together and then, over time, that trust is built to where eventually you could say, hey, you know what I'm feeling, this and this isn't healthy and I need to express some things that I haven't been able to express before.
00:19:55.090 --> 00:20:02.976
Sometimes it's preventative, it's not just come to the worship table, if you're struggling and you need to get some stuff out and dealt with.
00:20:03.436 --> 00:20:06.363
It's also like let's do this before these things happen.
00:20:06.383 --> 00:20:06.884
Let's strengthen.
00:20:06.884 --> 00:20:10.460
It's like Maxwell says in life you're either preparing or you're repairing.
00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:10.921
That's right.
00:20:10.921 --> 00:20:14.117
Repairing is a lot better than repairing.
00:20:14.117 --> 00:20:18.031
Yeah, Repairing is more expensive, that's right, it really is.
00:20:18.393 --> 00:20:33.372
When I think about, too, going off what you said, andy, coming together at the worship table, it seems that there's we've identified like three kind of pillars or, if you will, of of what needs to happen for us to be a healthy leader Like there.
00:20:33.372 --> 00:20:46.699
You need to have these things all functioning together for things to be stable, for things to be fruitful, and that's, you know, soul care and spiritual direction, like we all have to take care of our mind and our emotions really well, right.
00:20:46.699 --> 00:20:49.871
Then there's the leadership development piece.
00:20:49.871 --> 00:20:53.480
There's all the best practices of how we develop ourselves as leaders.
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.571
But that third thing is community.
00:20:55.571 --> 00:21:04.862
That's right, it's real, authentic community, it's connection, it's knowing that I've got Andy, I've got Drew, I can call somebody and process these things together.
00:21:04.862 --> 00:21:13.576
And if we don't have all three of those functioning together, we will have an underdeveloped ministry, we'll have an underdeveloped life.
00:21:13.576 --> 00:21:14.935
We have to have all three.
00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:21.472
And it might not show up immediately, right, it might show up 10 years down the line, 15 years down the line, 20 years down the line.
00:21:21.472 --> 00:21:31.401
But if you can get to it earlier, like you said, it's a lot easier to prepare for those things and fix them early than it is to.
00:21:31.401 --> 00:21:38.846
We just don't want worship pastors waking up at 35, 40 years old going I don't want to do this anymore, right, I think that's.
00:21:38.846 --> 00:21:40.028
I think that's a waste, Right.
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.016
Well, it sneaks up too.
00:21:42.016 --> 00:21:44.089
I mean, practically, what does that look like for the worship table?
00:21:44.089 --> 00:21:54.824
Because we're going to continue to get into like the struggle and the unique challenges and you know, even on this podcast there's going to be a lot of philosophical and even theological conversation, but there's going to be practical tip.
00:21:54.824 --> 00:21:56.053
I mean we're going to kind of run the gamut.
00:21:56.053 --> 00:22:02.145
But for the worship table, if this is someone's first experience with this, what can they come to expect?
00:22:02.145 --> 00:22:10.051
Because I love what you were saying about the three pillars, because we've all been on the retreats and done that and we see like high value in that.
00:22:10.272 --> 00:22:23.037
I mean, that's something where clearing out of space for a few days like we were talking last night, andy like removing all the distractions, removing all the escapes and just having a place where you can show up and truly get refreshed, is important.
00:22:23.037 --> 00:22:27.884
And it can't just end there, it has to also continue on.
00:22:27.884 --> 00:22:35.115
I think the vision for this has been kind of a both and which.
00:22:35.115 --> 00:22:38.484
Yeah, we do retreats, but that is just kind of like the huddle, the pep rally, the icing on the cake.
00:22:38.484 --> 00:22:40.136
It's what's happening daily and weekly.
00:22:40.136 --> 00:22:45.343
So just kind of give us a little practically, what does it look like for us to stay connected in community through the worship table.
00:22:46.130 --> 00:23:13.318
Well, yeah, I think you get out of something like this what you put into it, and we're only going to be as effective and as strong as we engage those things that are around us, and I think our hope is to continue to build connection and community so that it's not necessarily, yes, we're gonna bring best practices and all that, but we're connecting people together where they're meeting new people and developing friendship, developing.
00:23:13.318 --> 00:23:16.318
So the best practices there'll be lots of content.
00:23:16.318 --> 00:23:24.551
I think that we'll be dropping in best practices, bringing other experts, like high-level leaders, into the field, honest conversations about what we're really dealing with.
00:23:24.551 --> 00:23:28.672
So there's interactive content that they're going to be able to engage with.
00:23:28.692 --> 00:23:29.413
There's retreats.
00:23:29.413 --> 00:23:34.574
There's going to be one days where tables are going to come together because we've, we chose the table.
00:23:34.574 --> 00:23:42.717
I love it because it's a, it's a place of communion, it's a place of fellowship, it's a place of eating together.
00:23:42.717 --> 00:23:50.936
The table was at the center of so many things in scripture and in Jesus ministry, and so for us, it's like let's, let's.
00:23:50.936 --> 00:23:52.480
It's not rows, it's circles.
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:53.996
Right, it's getting together like this.
00:23:54.170 --> 00:24:03.531
What's really cool about the table is the retreats that we've done the, the, the best times and the most activity we've seen is are at the table.
00:24:03.531 --> 00:24:05.517
It's at the breakfast table, it's at the lunch table.
00:24:05.517 --> 00:24:15.478
I mean, we we've had plans that we've canceled and modified because the worship pastors were still gathered around the the breakfast table drinking more coffee.
00:24:15.478 --> 00:24:23.971
You know, you know it was, it was morphing into lunchtime and they're still talking and connecting and you're like this is what we don't want to disturb.
00:24:23.971 --> 00:24:25.573
So the table, really.
00:24:25.573 --> 00:24:28.758
And then you can't, and you came up with that, michael, that was your.
00:24:29.358 --> 00:24:31.221
Well, I mean literally, it was just that.
00:24:31.221 --> 00:24:44.085
It was like I want to have a conversation, I want to share a meal, because so many times we like even our churches, we end up relating around the lobby, we relate around the small talk of things.
00:24:44.085 --> 00:24:56.816
But it's when you invite people into your home and you are able to sit down and, like we did last night, watch a basketball game together or have a meal, um, that's when you get to know, know each other and you feel known.
00:24:56.996 --> 00:25:08.415
Yeah, so one of the things that I've heard you guys talk about, which I think is important for this, is, yes, we've got a lot of trusted experts, guys like, and it's kind of why I asked the question earlier that you dodged We'll come back to.
00:25:08.476 --> 00:25:34.738
But, um, I think for a lot of us, you know, you're, you're, you've been well-trained in interviewing you just say what you're what you want to say I love it, um, no, because I do think having having guys that have men and women have been in for a while, that can encourage and can coach and you know are, are, have finished or are finishing well and all those things, it doesn't mean it was perfect, it just means you know they stayed faithful through the years and had the tools and the community and stuff.
00:25:34.758 --> 00:25:35.601
So we want to learn from that.
00:25:35.601 --> 00:25:43.518
But also one thing I've heard you guys talk about a lot, which I love, is like this isn't like come to the all the experts.
00:25:43.518 --> 00:25:45.380
This is like we want to hear your story.
00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:56.834
We want to hear what's going on in your part of the world, what you're doing where you're at, and really kind of to use like if the hero of the story is the men and women that are in the trenches, every single.
00:25:56.834 --> 00:26:05.538
We want to talk to everybody, hear what's going on, talk a little bit about the importance of it not just being the hierarchy of here's the people that are doing great things.
00:26:05.538 --> 00:26:06.539
Let's come learn from them.
00:26:06.980 --> 00:26:17.016
It's like we have so much to learn from each other If we'll just open up that two way conversation, yeah, and I want to push in on that a little bit because I mean, obviously, of the three of us, andy's a celebrity.
00:26:17.016 --> 00:26:28.865
Well, we're not, you know, let's be honest, I mean let's there's a lot more discs in the plaque on the wall behind him.
00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:30.314
I'm the one not to do guy.
00:26:30.374 --> 00:26:34.979
That's what I'm here for you remind people who I am.
00:26:35.038 --> 00:26:37.417
I'm sorry, that's a whole episode just on you, andy, don't worry.
00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:39.898
We'll save Andy's resume episode.
00:26:39.898 --> 00:26:46.939
But I think our heart is for not necessarily the celebrity you know.
00:26:46.939 --> 00:26:50.865
You know, coming in and telling, telling us what's up, you know.
00:26:50.865 --> 00:27:07.182
I think it's more like we want to hear from and learn from people that are faithfully serving in their local church right, Because that is the, the, the, the essence of what God's called us to do, and so the platforms are great.
00:27:07.182 --> 00:27:16.000
Obviously, we love all the artists that we know and we're thankful for that, and I'm sure they'll come and be a part at times as well.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:26.279
But it's really more about the conversations around the table with men and women who are leading in their local context and bringing strength to that.
00:27:26.932 --> 00:27:39.137
Yeah, I can remember being a young worship pastor and just feeling like, oh man, if I could just get to that spot, or, man, what would it be like to lead worship there or be at that church or be on that stage or whatever.
00:27:39.137 --> 00:27:57.375
And there's just that natural, which is okay, it's part of our development, right, like we don't need to feel shame around having an ego part that wants to, you know, pursue other things, um, but, man, it's like just staying faithful where god has you and getting the tools and the community and all the stuff you guys have been talking about.
00:27:57.375 --> 00:27:59.000
That's the sweet spot, man.
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:13.519
It's like because you get to the, because you guys have been there, you get to those places and you're like that wasn't exactly what I, uh, what I thought it was going to be, but there's just such beauty into finding that contentment piece, which is a word that I've wrestled with through the years.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:21.057
But getting a place of contentment of like I can just be where God has me right now and be faithful and love the people around me, and we want to highlight those stories.
00:28:21.057 --> 00:28:30.144
Those are the people we want to talk to, those are the people that I want to learn from, honestly, the ones that have stayed in you know a context and just stayed local and faithful and all those things.
00:28:31.790 --> 00:28:34.036
One other quick question before we close.
00:28:34.036 --> 00:28:36.583
I'd love to end kind of pastorally, if that's okay.
00:28:36.583 --> 00:28:49.678
So if there's a worship pastor, worship leader right now who is feeling some isolation, who's feeling alone, or is feeling, hey, I'm on the health scale, you know, I'm fine, there's some slippage going on here I need to address.
00:28:49.678 --> 00:28:57.196
What kind of encouragement would you give to that worship pastor who's feeling alone, like, does anybody get me and does anybody understand what I'm going through?
00:28:57.196 --> 00:29:02.101
Or even, if I can be honest, I don't know if I want to do this anymore.
00:29:02.101 --> 00:29:02.561
I don't.
00:29:02.561 --> 00:29:03.570
What would you guys?
00:29:03.570 --> 00:29:04.672
What would you say?
00:29:04.672 --> 00:29:06.115
I know that's a massive question.
00:29:06.315 --> 00:29:16.551
Well, I'll start by saying, as you get to know, michael and I, in this journey, I'm more of the baseball bat, michael's more of the scalpel.
00:29:16.571 --> 00:29:18.193
So you know, go to Michael with your emotions.
00:29:18.193 --> 00:29:19.936
Exactly, just kidding.
00:29:20.457 --> 00:29:24.623
Well, no, I'll just say that for me the broad answer to that.
00:29:24.702 --> 00:29:25.964
Neither one of us sounded good.
00:29:25.964 --> 00:29:30.538
Now let's talk about all the You're going to hurt no matter what.
00:29:31.912 --> 00:29:34.579
So Andy hits you with a bat and Michael repairs you with a scalpel.
00:29:34.579 --> 00:29:34.861
Got it?
00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:38.980
I think the thing that I would want worship pastors to know is you're not alone.
00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:46.653
What you're feeling is not unique, and stop thinking that you're the only one that's dealing with this.
00:29:46.653 --> 00:30:00.406
And the beauty of reaching out and allowing yourself to be part of the community is you hear other people and you put yourself in context and realize my problems maybe aren't that bad.
00:30:00.406 --> 00:30:10.240
And I was dreaming about being in a ministry, like he is, and I don't think I want to do that now, now that I hear his stories or what they're going through.
00:30:10.349 --> 00:30:15.099
I'm not built that way and to go okay, god, you've got me exactly where you want me to be.
00:30:15.099 --> 00:30:29.237
So let me get in community and see the bigger picture of what you're doing, because isolation is the enemy and when we're isolated, all of our problems become so huge when really they're probably not.
00:30:29.237 --> 00:30:34.520
And that's where I swing my baseball bat and just go, get over it.
00:30:34.520 --> 00:30:40.636
Get over your pride, get over your fear, get in a community and let's start asking questions together.
00:30:40.636 --> 00:30:47.836
Let's talk about it, because we don't know what we don't know and until you have conversations with somebody else that does what you do.
00:30:47.836 --> 00:30:50.400
Well, I'm not saying there's any.
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:54.065
There's no real expert out there on how to do ministry.
00:30:54.470 --> 00:30:58.961
We're all just doing the best we can, and we can do it a lot better in community.
00:30:58.990 --> 00:31:07.099
Well, and that tough love, Andy, is sometimes what we really need, cause I will say, the lower you get, the harder it is to want to pursue community.
00:31:07.099 --> 00:31:09.411
It's almost like this vicious circle of isolation.
00:31:09.411 --> 00:31:20.411
You get isolated and it's almost like, oh man, to kind of force myself sometime, or I should say, even lead myself to I know that this is part of the solution is to surround myself with people and to get that.
00:31:20.411 --> 00:31:21.633
That can be tough.
00:31:21.633 --> 00:31:23.154
I mean, sometimes, like you said, get over it.
00:31:23.154 --> 00:31:36.000
You have to just say, okay, I know this is good for me, and a lot of times, whether it's a retreat or a worship table event or whatever, I know there's times for me when I'm going into community I don't want to go and I'm always at the end like man.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:37.509
I'm so glad I did that.
00:31:37.509 --> 00:31:43.857
There's something in us that makes us resist that kind of connection when it's exactly the antidote we need for.
00:31:43.917 --> 00:31:44.838
We talked about earlier.
00:31:44.838 --> 00:31:46.461
I must before, before we started.
00:31:46.461 --> 00:31:47.582
I'm a serious introvert.
00:31:47.582 --> 00:31:50.184
This does not I.
00:31:50.184 --> 00:31:53.750
I don't gravitate towards groups and sharing my story.
00:31:53.750 --> 00:31:58.509
He won't even talk to us on the breaks, I know right he goes back to his green room back to my private.
00:31:59.652 --> 00:32:00.153
see you later.
00:32:00.153 --> 00:32:06.603
But it's hard for me and so it's a discipline for me and I see the value in it.
00:32:06.603 --> 00:32:14.851
Just going I don't want to do it, but I do it and it makes me better and to be with you guys and to be with our team, that's putting this together.
00:32:14.851 --> 00:32:23.829
It's good for me because I need this in my life and if I need it, I mean I'm just going to assume that everybody needs it yeah.
00:32:24.371 --> 00:32:26.435
Yeah, I couldn't have said it better, it better.
00:32:26.435 --> 00:32:48.844
I mean, the enemy of our souls wants to keep us isolated and believing a lie, believing a lie that we're the only one or that we're the one that feels this way, like you said, and so for me, like reaching out when sometimes you have faith for me when I, I don't have it like that sense of like, brotherhood, that, like you know, we're going to, we're going to go over this wall.
00:32:48.844 --> 00:32:59.596
All of us have to get over the wall, not just one of us, and so it's a sense of connection and your strength can be my strength and my strength can be your strength when you need it.
00:32:59.596 --> 00:33:02.196
That's really what it is at the end of the day.
00:33:02.710 --> 00:33:03.913
So good guys.
00:33:03.913 --> 00:33:04.276
Thank you.
00:33:04.276 --> 00:33:05.359
This is excellent.
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:06.792
I'm excited for what more to come.
00:33:06.792 --> 00:33:14.636
Next episode we're talking about specifically the challenges that worship leaders face things like imposter syndrome and all that so we're going to dive into that.
00:33:14.636 --> 00:33:16.096
But this has been a lot of fun.
00:33:16.096 --> 00:33:19.259
As you were talking, I was thinking maybe Andy should close us with where there is faith.
00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:22.078
I feel like that would be a good exclamation point on this.
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:26.083
You were kind of leading him into that, but he didn't take it A little bit of a copyright issue there.
00:33:26.083 --> 00:33:32.432
Just go to Spotify, go to Andy Chrismancom, andy Chrismancom.
00:33:32.452 --> 00:33:34.377
There it is All of that All you want.
00:33:34.377 --> 00:33:35.480
Awesome Thanks, guys.
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.651
Thank you Well.
00:33:38.651 --> 00:33:40.357
Thanks for joining us at the Worship Table.
00:33:40.357 --> 00:33:48.574
If today's conversation encouraged you, we'd love to invite you deeper Inside our online community.
00:33:48.574 --> 00:33:51.069
You'll find live prayer, personal coaching and connection with worship leaders who understand what you're walking through.
00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:55.080
Visit theworshiptablecom to learn more and to take your seat at the table.
00:33:55.080 --> 00:33:59.520
Until next time, let's keep leading with heart and don't forget to care for your own soul too.