Caught on Camera: Cheaters, Surveillance, and the Spectacle of Betrayal

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You're listening to the world according to Jen and Carolyn.
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Hey everybody.
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Hello, John.
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Hello.
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It's been a long time.
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It really has.
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Yeah, we're gonna be a little more regular now.
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Summer is upon us.
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Her more regular.
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More regular.
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I mean our fiber.
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As we get, yes.
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Also, as we get older, we'll be less regular in certain areas.
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Thank you, Perimenopause.
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Um, but we will be recording more regularly.
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Uh, the summer is upon us, things are generally more mellow over the summer.
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Thank God.
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Attended my last baseball practice of the season.
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They take it far too seriously.
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Mother's Day.
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Oh, thank you.
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Belated Mother's Day.
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Yes.
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Um, that was mellow.
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If we skipped baseball that day, it was perfect.
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So tomorrow's the last game.
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And then after Sunday, basically, my obligations are pretty much done for the school year.
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And we're in a new room.
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We're in a new room, yes.
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It's it's far more feminine than the man cave adjacent to this room.
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There's no alcohol in here, though.
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There's there is no booze, which I kind of liked.
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Um, but uh there's other stuff.
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There's my boudoir pictures.
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It's very vaginal.
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It is.
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There's it's pretty much nearly every picture in this room is of a woman or something that looks like the female anatomy, like those mountains in Asia look like titties, maybe.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I'm reaching, but this room has very good feminine energies.
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There's a mossy cave somewhere.
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There's definitely wetness.
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Yeah, there's there's stuff going on here.
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Uh, everything here is feminine and vaginal and much more aligned with our our product, with our lens.
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What uh what isn't particularly aligned with our lens is our topic for today.
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So Carolyn and I decided that in the midst of all the darkness that is America um and the shadow that America casts across the world.
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Yeah.
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And now the moon, an outer space, a great orange shadow over the universe.
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Um, we we need to do some light shit.
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So, you know, why not?
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We loved our Jerry Springer episode.
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We actually have a final thought uh for every episode, which is inspired by Jerry.
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Jerry was very thoughtful, contemplative, and intelligent in spite of the subject matter of his television show.
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Um, and so, you know, in in the Jerry, uh in the spirit of Jerry, we're gonna be talking about the show Cheaters.
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Remember Cheaters?
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Until we did this very vaguely.
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Very vaguely.
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I was really into this show.
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So to so today's episode is called Caught on Camera: Cheaters Surveillance and the Spectacle of Betrayal.
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Because it truly is a spectacle.
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And prior to us recording, I beefed up while Bill was recording his podcast in the week, which I love.
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It's like an hour and a half to myself.
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My child is in bed.
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I love his podcast.
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Oh, yeah.
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No, no, no, I love the alone time.
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I still don't know where you can find it.
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I have no idea.
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Um if it's even being published.
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Yeah, it's really cool.
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It's a good idea.
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Anyway, no, no free ads, Bill, um, even though he's our producer.
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But that is my time to watch hot garbage and get high and just do mom things.
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And so this week's hot garbage was dedicated to cheaters.
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I was like, we're doing this episode.
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I need to get need to reacquaint myself with this dumpster fire that is uh Joey Greco and the cheaters screw.
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So who wasn't on originally?
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Oh, I don't know.
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I don't know because I don't remember if I watched probably like WB.
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It feels like these are like all the early like reality dating.
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This is 2001.
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That's early on.
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Yeah, really early on.
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That's why this is so fascinating.
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So, you know, of course, we're gonna turn our political and our feminist lens on this as well, but we're gonna keep it kind of lighthearted.
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We usually, again, we're in the deep end of everything.
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And so you need a break, we need a break.
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So we're gonna examine something chaotic, ridiculous, and deeply revealing, but also really funny.
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Um, because sometimes I think the best way to understand society is to watch people sprint across the parking lot being like, gotcha bitch, and being chased by a camera crew.
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So today, you know, we are temporarily stepping away from the political dysfunction that is the United States of America.
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We're gonna dive headfirst into relationship dysfunction.
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Yes, that I know well.
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This is your life.
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Literally.
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Ordinarily, the subject matter of our shows aligns more with like my career, and this is more aligned with your career.
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Yes, 100%.
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Yes.
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So this is our first lighter episode in a long time.
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Um, you know, of course, it's still gonna involve betrayal, surveillance, uh fucking emotional collapse, public humiliation.
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Welcome to Jen and Carolyn discussing cheaters.
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So, Carolyn, yeah, you know, you're um you have a master's in family therapy, you're primarily a couples therapist.
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Like, is there ever any hope for reconciliation if you're on one of these fucked up shows like Cheaters and the Jerry Springer show?
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Research-wise, 100%.
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And I'll misery loves company.
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Well, so here's the secret to if you're gonna first of all, please don't have an affair.
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It's extremely expensive.
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If you're gonna have an affair, just break it.
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It's extremely expensive as other well, among other things.
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If you're gonna try and salvage Larissa, it's extremely expensive.
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Okay, but um, so the research does confirm that affairs left unaddressed and very bad.
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Like I think that's an I don't think we needed research on that.
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Like we don't, so let me explain.
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So the cheaters format is basically a secret affair plus public like exposure, exposure, denouncing that, right?
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So a really bad combination.
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Yeah.
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Um, culturally, you know, we've taught people that exposure equals justice.
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And every clinician working in that in the space of therapy and in in in couples work will tell you that justice is a byproduct of accountability, and accountability requires someone choosing to be responsible.
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Yeah.
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So what that means is that, and I've seen this, if you cheat and you come clean 100% of your own volition, the relationship is much more salvageable than if you're found out.
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Okay.
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And it and I'm presuming that it's not only I cheated, I'm sorry, and I want to salvage our relationship.
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And I'll tell you everything you need to know, and I'm a piece of shit.
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Okay.
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Anything other than that is probably not gonna go well.
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Okay.
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Which I don't think you need a a a research study to prove that, but let's talk a little bit about this show because I I think this is a phenomenon that I I you share this too, though, because as a clinician, I love this type of nonsense TV.
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Oh, yeah.
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And again, it's equal parts horror, and I I'm very professionally fascinated, especially if they'll go into like, here's the person's childhood or here's their don't do cheaters.
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Here's their upbringing.
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You're gonna miss all that on cheaters.
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It's purely exploitation.
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Which is also kind of funny too.
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But any kind of reality projected in television and media that's framed as entertainment is is, I think, very interesting to watch too, because you get this moment.
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Sorry, my ear, my hair is caught in my hoop.
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Oh, yeah.
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Um, that moment of like kind of like where you're like empathetic and then you're like kind of judging.
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You're like, well, I would never do that.
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We're gonna talk all about that.
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Yeah.
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Um, and there's actually a word for this type of entertainment, and it's called hum.
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I'm gonna say this right now.
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Humilitatement.
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Humilitan.
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I don't know why I can't say that.
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And we all have those words.
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Again, it's it's you see this in the Roman Coliseums, uh, then you see this in public stocks, witch burnings, Barnum and Bailey freak shows, Jerry Springer, cheaters, and even TikTok call-outs.
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It depends on which side of that velvet rope you're lying.
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And there's a a word actually that um encapsulates seeing like someone being exposed and like having to take responsibility.
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It makes us feel morally superior.
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100%.
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It's called Gnuntung.
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Gnund.
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Let me see if I can say it German.
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Will it be able to hear this?
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Yeah.
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Genuchtung.
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Gnuktung.
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Genuch.
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Genuchtung.
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Everything in German has tung in it.
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Schaudenchunde, another mish misfortune to feel better about yourself by noting their fallibility, gloating, the joy of winning.
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Um, and then you get sadism.
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It's a really great salon article if you want to read this.
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But yeah, I mean, I think it if you want to have success in this relationship, this show is not gonna be the formula because they're finding out under like the most catastrophic catastrophic of realities.
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So, one of the things I am gonna do, I want to preface is three of the trainings that I or four of the trainings that I am trained in for couples therapy is definitely Esther Perell, who's done a lot of work socially and culturally on uh the state of affairs, great book and mating in captivity.
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Um, Gottman Methodist study cheating and betrayals exclusively.
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Um, someone named Shirley Glass wrote a book called Not Just Friends, chapter four.
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Whenever someone comes to my office and says I've been cheated on, I'm like, let's have you read this chapter four.
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Um and then um Ortman's uh actually there's a DSM category, it's not in the DSM, but it's a form of PTSD post-infidelity stress disorder.
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Oh, because that's what you're saying.
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Yeah, it's I don't know if I'd ever be able to trust my husband again, honestly.
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But that's the difference.
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If he came to you and said if you wouldn't change it for me.
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You still betrayed us.
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It's a diff yes, 100%.
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And at least they tell you.
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So there's a different kind of I I know, I know.
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I'm the same way.
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I guess it's different in terms of the way you process it when you have to find out on your own, or you know it's a different feeling.
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Joey Krakow.
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Well, it's not good when the very person that you love is also the very person you distrust.
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Those are two that's you you can't be hungry and full at the same time.
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Well, actually, two things are at the same time.
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But you know, again, the public ambush is and the bomb in the middle of someone's trauma is is what's really, really bad.
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Yeah.
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So it's I I don't think this show, or I know this show, has absolutely no interest in any sort of like reparative formula.
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It's like we're gonna blow this up and we're doing it for the purpose of entertainment, and we don't give a shit about these people.
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They really don't.
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Yeah.
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Like Joey Greco always tries to come off as this empathetic character, and you're like, you're loving every minute of this, bro, in your black leather jacket and your slick back hair, you fucking grease paw.
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So, you know, there's a moment if you've ever watched Cheaters where everything shifts, right?
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The car door opens, a camera rushes out, someone yells, that's him.
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And suddenly, as you said, this very private relationship is it's public theater.
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And it's a show.
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This show ran from actually 2000, not 2001, to 2024.
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I didn't know 24 years.
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That's how fascinated people are with this sort of humilitatement, right?
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So, you know, it's built on this premise of expose infidelity in real time with real consequences.
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And beneath the chaos, the shouting, the running, the occasional violence, there's something deeper happening.
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This show isn't just about cheating, it's about surveillance, shame, as you said, power, and the transformation of intimacy into entertainment.
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You know, the format that hooked America is is this.
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At its core, cheaters follows this very simple structure.
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We have a suspicious partner who reaches out.
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Private investigators conduct surveillance, evidence is gathered, often secretly filmed.
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Then you have Joey Greco being like, This is what we saw.
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Who's been doing Richard Greco Greco?
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Who's Richard Greco?
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Why do I know that?
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Richard Greco from 21 Jump Street.
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Oh, but then there's also um, isn't Greco the last name of a character in Gordon Greco.
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Gordon Greco.
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Yes, Gordon Greco, right?
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From uh Wall Street.
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Wall Street, yes, okay, thank you.
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I know full circle.
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So, you know, and then the evidence is gathered, and then finally the confrontation.
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That's the format.
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At step one, if you're suspicious, yeah, something's probably up.
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Oh, yeah.
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Like, don't you think, especially like no offense, guys, but if you're a woman, like woman's intuition, yeah.
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Like if you if you already suspect, girl, you don't guts to go through as fun.
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And also, too, this is very similar in the sense of like when we cover Jerry Springer, right?
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Like the people who are going on this show, you know, we can say, Oh, this is exploitative, like this is awful, this is terrible, but it's you know what you're getting into.
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Yes, you know what is going to happen to you.
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So I I question the motivation to go on for 24 years.
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Yes.
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Jeez.
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Yeah, it's crazy.
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That I was surprised about.
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You know, the last step of this, the confrontation, that's the spectacle part because it's not just exposure.
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It's a fucking ambush.
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It's people coming out of the bushes and fucking ghilly suits.
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Yeah.
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You know, oh wait, I'm confusing that with to catch a predator, where they come out with gilly suits.
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It's similar, though.
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It's similar in that sense, right?
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Much worse.
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Infidelity.
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Yes, versus you molesting someone in a feeling.
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Yeah, no, thank you.
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The show's detective agency, detective agency, they say this in quotes, tracks people in real time, filming intimate behavior without their knowledge before orchestrating a public confrontation.
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Girl, the episode I was watching, the private footage that they did, because they're doing, they're putting the cameras in with the permission of the suspicious party.
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I watched somebody getting a blowjaw.
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Ooh.
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Well, I mean, it's black and white, it's rainy, and it's blurred out, but you you see, you know what's going on.
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No, this wasn't a house.
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Oh.
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Because the person is not illegal.
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The person who shares the house with the person.
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So you can put cameras in my house.
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I don't know about like I'm sure certain states that's allowed.
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Yes.
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Just like uh Linda Trip.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:13.679
Yes.
00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:19.039
Well, yeah, in California, it at least for audio recording, it's a two-party state.
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.600
You have to have consent from the other party before you record, otherwise, it's inadmissible.
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.000
I'm guessing the cheater's not gonna be like, do you mind if we put some cameras in here, huh?
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.279
Yes, yes.
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.120
So this is some weird shit.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.320
So, you know, the structure of this really matters.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:35.279
And why does it matter?
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:38.399
Because it mirrors something super primal, as you were you were saying.
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:43.440
Like we've been doing uh iterations of this since the dawn of time.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:43.919
Yeah.
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.919
You know, suspicion, confirmation, punishment.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.600
I do like public punishment.
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:54.159
This is why so many people used to love a good public execution.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.840
There was also a sexual component to it, which really fucking freaks me out.
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.679
I have absolutely no desire to see a public execution.
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.440
I'll watch somebody get flogged in public.
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:05.360
Shit, I've been to the Folsom Street Fair.
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:06.720
Like, that's kind of hard.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:08.000
That's consensual.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.240
Yeah, even if it's not, I'll watch that shit.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.679
Um, we don't do that anymore.
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:13.600
But execution, I don't understand that.
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.000
But still, there are plenty of people.
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:22.000
I don't even like when I see in hockey they're allowed to beat each other up on the ice, and I think it's so gross.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.200
I don't think they're supposed to be.
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:29.919
They are well, as they're allowed to be like make blood, and it's so uh I can't.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:30.799
I think it's a lot.
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:31.679
I'm like, why?
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:38.799
But you know, the thing about this, it turns this emotional uncertainty into a narrative closure, even though it's not closure.
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:43.120
We have no idea what transpires between this couple after those cameras go off.
00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:44.000
I want to watch.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.360
Yes, that's what I would like to do.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:52.159
I mean, sometimes you hear like a tidbit, like the one I watched, it said, Oh, the husband who was cheating wanted to reconcile with this woman.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.440
Even after he called her a bitch and all sorts of shit on television.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.120
I'm like, fuck this guy.
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:04.720
If this woman goes back, and I'm sure there are plenty of people, not just women, who go back to their cheating partners to self-esteem.
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:05.599
There's a lot going on, right?
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:06.319
Yeah, sure.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.599
So, but that's closure at a cost, a big cost.
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:10.880
And it's not really even closure.
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.200
I argue that this does not constitute closure.
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:14.480
There's really no such thing as closure.
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.640
No, not well, no, and you're statistically you're right when when it comes to cheating.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:19.359
Yes.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:27.599
You know, talk to us about the psychology of betrayal as entertainment and why do so many why was the show on for 24 fucking years?
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:28.160
Why?
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.119
Well, okay, so there's three things happening.
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.319
So here's why we watch this.
00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:43.279
The nervous system is happening when you're simultaneously having a nervous system reaction with a character, a real person or a character.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:43.680
Yeah.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:45.519
So let's talk about voyeurism.
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:50.160
Activates threat detection circuits, moral positioning.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:52.559
This I would never do that.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:18:05.279
God creates a dopamine superiority hit, and the confrontation delivers it does deliver emotional closure, which real betrayal of never does provide.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.599
So you're getting to watch this morality play in real time.
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.599
It's kind of like how you want to watch a fight sometimes.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.680
Well, and it depends on the person.
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.359
We were walking the other day and I heard like commotion, and I was all, ooh, I want to see what's going on.
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:20.960
Mario was like, such a slight lady.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.599
Just keep walking, walking toward the gunshots.
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:24.480
No, girl, no.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:26.480
I was like, what's happening?
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.240
Like, people are yelling and those crazy.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:30.799
I run from that shit.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.160
He was like, move along, nothing to see here.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:34.880
Um, all right.
00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:41.759
So Esther Perell, um, like I said, from Mania and Captivity, um, state of affairs, would say framing is essential here.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:48.240
And she says infidelity is the one crisis that touches everything identity, morality, desire, and belonging.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:59.200
So when we watch it happen to someone else, we're not just judging them, we're actually getting to sort of live at our own deepest fear, play out, but at a safe distance.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:18:59.680
Okay.
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:08.240
Which freaks me out because I if if you take that same thought and put it on, like, well, actually, no, it's not it like the women who watch true crime.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.440
Or rape fantasies.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:10.319
Or rape fantasies.
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:16.559
We're watching our own uh worst fear be done in a very contained way.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:17.440
Yes, exactly.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.599
We still have control over the situation, exactly.
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.960
We're not actually getting hurt.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:31.440
So, from a polyvagal system of looking at your whole nervous system and feeling connected and safe, you can literally watch people cycle through fight, flight, and freeze in a three-minute confrontation.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:31.759
Yeah.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.160
So the shaking, the screaming, the sudden, eerie calm, it's not really perceived as drama in that way.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.519
It's like, what are what's gonna happen?
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.440
So, from a cinematic standpoint, it's absolutely suspense.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.079
Suspense.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:46.880
Thank you.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.240
So being cheated on, here's what the clinical voices would say.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:58.160
So Ortman, who's the author of the uh post-infidelity stress disorder framework, names this as betrayal trauma, as infidelity.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.519
It's got its own sort of distinct signature.
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.240
You get intrusive thoughts, similar with PTSD.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:10.079
Um, intrusive thoughts, hypervigilance, identity shattering, loss of coherent narrative about your own life.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:23.759
So I would think for someone who has been cheated on or has been the cheater, yeah, again, you're getting it doesn't map it out perfectly in the same way that you would have PTSD, but it's this the infidelity isn't a physical threat.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.279
It's definitely a neurological and an emotional uh threat.
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.119
It's very identical to PTSD.
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.559
I mean, it could be a physical threat.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.359
Like for one episode I watched, the woman got an STD from her cheating husband.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.960
Literal physical threat.
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:38.640
That's been there.
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.720
She was like screaming at you, you gave me an STD.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:47.519
Don't date someone who's going to UCSB and just talking to other girls.
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:49.119
You're gonna get chlamydia.
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:49.680
Yep.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:50.160
Yep.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.480
It's never just talking, you guys, not knowledge.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.039
Again, not just friends, Shirley Glass.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:00.720
Um, she talks about something really crucial here that betrayal by a trusted partner is a double wound.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:00.960
Yeah.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:02.559
So that was sort of what you were saying.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.400
It's this person who is supposed to be a really safe harbor, they're a threat.
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:06.880
Yeah.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.359
Um, and that's what makes it so hard to regulate.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:13.839
There's no safe place to go when the danger and confrontation are that same person.
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:21.759
Gottman would say it's, you know, again, you're taking a huge uh uh withdrawal from the trust bank.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:30.160
And in all fairness, these relationships to me, as I watch those the replays, they don't really seem the healthiest.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:36.000
And again, if you're all truth ready suspecting, yeah, you're probably something's not good.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:36.400
Yeah.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:45.039
Um, so you know, being the cheater, as you know, part of the show refuses to really talk too much about it.
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.240
To me, I always felt like it was more the person who was being cheated on.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.559
Yeah.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.240
That you're seeing their perspective.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, you know, but the show built and is built entirely on catching and punishing cheaters and has never once asked, well, why did you?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.559
Do this.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:01.200
Yeah.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.039
And it's not just good, bad TV.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:10.799
It's a cultural fusel to look at the relationship and the systemic conditions that made that infidelity possible.
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:22.480
Popular, unpopular opinion, when someone comes into the room and they've been cheated on, not always, because there are people who are just categorically, they don't need a reason.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.319
They will just opportunistically do cheat.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:26.960
Yeah.
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:33.599
Mo that's not as it's I don't want to say it's not as common, but it's there's usually something missing.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.240
I think from my experience when I've been a cheater, yeah.
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:46.559
I had a motive, and there was something missing in the relationship that I went to seek out, or there's something I needed outside of that.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:56.400
And so, you know, the show doesn't really touch on that, but it does bring me to kind of this diagnostic question of, you know, well, I wanted it, I took it, the relationship wasn't worth protecting.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.319
And so you're getting to see all that like explode on TV.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.960
And it's, I I mean, it's it's a terrible thing to say, but the atta it's fucked up.
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:17.920
But also this at all the attachment research that we have um looks at, you know, if you're someone who most of the people I think watching that, most of us have either been cheated on, yeah, or have cheated.
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:19.119
Because it's super common.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:20.799
It's way common.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.839
I don't think humans are necessarily meant to be monogamous.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:26.480
Esther Perol would agree with you.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:26.799
Yeah.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:34.160
I I mean, I it's it's hard to and and I have this conversation with my cousin, and she's like, oh, men cheat more.
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:41.039
And I'm like, I don't know if that's necessarily true, especially now that we have birth control.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:50.160
Like, there's less of a fear of getting pregnant, and and and women, we're sexual beings as well, and we have to, you know, we look for that gratification too.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:57.039
And we look for validation and whatever is missing outside of a relationship, just as a man does.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:05.759
And, you know, my cousin's perspective is well, it's a man's job to propagate the species, and so they have a higher sex drive, and so they're inclined to cheat more.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.000
And I'm like, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:15.200
I think what we're seeing statistically is that men might be more forthcoming.
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:19.519
And because of the way we're socialized as women, we are less forthcoming.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:21.359
Does not mean we cheat less.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.599
It just means we don't disclose it as freely as men do.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:30.079
Well, and Astrop would say, Well, what how do you define cheating too?
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:37.200
You know, so for the the common thought is that women tend to have more emotional affairs and such sexual affairs.
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.039
But again, you have to think about well, what is the re who you know?
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:48.559
Now we have uh non-binary, we have gay couples, yeah, we have ethically non-monogamous.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:50.480
So I know you laugh at that.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.359
It can be done.
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:55.519
I sure it can if you have the right agreements in place.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:00.799
You know, I yeah, I I'm sure I know it can be done.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:17.839
But you, you know, it's this thing of like, well, we can't historically say anything is valid because even when we look at medical stuff, when we realize that half of you know that most of our whoops and our ring aura rings and our Apple watches are based off data from men.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:18.240
Yeah.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.799
So all the data we have is from men.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:21.440
Right.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:33.920
And so I think the patriarchy would would allow and toxic masculinity would say, well, men are more wandery and they're more there that socially it's more accept.
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.319
I think people accept more that men cheat.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:36.640
Yes.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:38.480
Look what happens to a woman when she cheats.
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:38.640
Right.
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:39.680
Scarlet A.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:40.079
Yeah.
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:45.680
So the the because a woman can get pregnant from that.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:46.079
Yeah.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:50.480
So the consequences are really different than it would be for a man.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:56.480
Yes, but thanks to birth control, yeah, we don't have to necessarily worry about those repercussions.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.279
And we live in California, thankfully, we can access abortion medicine, you know.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:02.640
So things have changed.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:14.160
Maybe back in the day, you know, when there was no remedy and dudes weren't fucking pulling out and there was no contraception, you know, I'm like, primitive contraception, just pull that shit out.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:16.480
Just associate sperm with pregnancy.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:17.359
Pull out.
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:18.720
What about pre-com?
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:20.480
Oh my god, dude.
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:36.640
Uh my my really good friend, when they lived in New Orleans and they were very low income and they went to Planned Parenthood, the doctors straight up told them, Oh, pulling out is just as good as like contraception.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:38.480
I was like, oh my God.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.319
I said that to my my boss, and she's like, no, Jen.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.000
She's like, I got pregnant that way.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.359
I was like, I guess it ain't foolproof.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.039
And my my doctor always laughs.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:55.200
She's like, let me know if you want a real like actual barrier to pregnancy.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:59.039
I was like, I don't want the extra hormones or any of that shit in my body.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:00.079
We're just gonna pull out.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.680
Maybe I'm gonna have a baby at 46.
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:02.319
No, I don't know.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.160
I'm not 46 yet, but I'm 45.
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.119
But and Liam's always like, my kid, he wants a sibling.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:07.839
He wants a sibling.
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.920
I'm like, not coming from Auntie Carolyn.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.680
No, well, I'm like, sweetheart.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:12.480
You're eight.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:14.000
You're gonna be nine in September.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:14.880
You don't want a sibling.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.359
You want a younger sibling now, but he's very sweet and caring.
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.279
So I think he'd be way into a baby.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:22.240
He would be.
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:23.440
He would not be annoyed.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:25.759
He would be like, God damn it.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.039
I'm not doing it though.
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:27.920
I'm fucked.
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.160
I am tired for you.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.400
No, I got well, I have a career.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.119
I would.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:34.720
I have a career and one child.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:36.400
I'm I'm solid, dog.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:37.599
I'm solid.
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:38.720
So, all right.
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:42.160
So let's talk about the concept of whether or not this is real or fake.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.400
And does it even matter?
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:50.319
So, almost from the beginning, cheaters faced a lot of accusations, like accusations that it was staged, right?
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:52.319
Like Joey Greco was stabbed.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.400
People were like, uh, he wasn't that I stabbed stabbed.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:01.440
And it's widely debated, really, still to this day, whether or not that was staged.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:02.799
Um, was it real?
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.000
The answer is both and neither, right?
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.880
Because the real product wasn't authenticity.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:10.799
It's never been authenticity.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:20.079
That's never been the goal of this show or any of these other performative fucking hot mess dumpster fires that intrigue human beings.
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:21.680
Where is he now?
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:22.400
I don't know.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.720
We're gonna look that shit up when we're done.
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:25.920
We will report back.
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.880
So, you know, uh it was emotional plausibility, right?
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.480
That's really the key here.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:33.759
It felt real.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.400
The anger, the betrayal, the chaos, all of it.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:37.680
And it worked.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:47.440
It was like this perfect shitstorm synergy of toxic waste, like broccoli lit a fart on fire.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:55.119
Like somehow, like, you know, like a, I'm thinking of every goddamn cliche, like a traffic accident you cannot look away from.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:04.319
Yeah, yeah, you know, and the this blurring of reality and performance, it's central to that early 2000s reality TV that you and I were raised on.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.680
Well, and you're getting to be the detective in the show.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:08.240
Yes.
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:13.519
Like we this was before frickin' adnon and what was that podcast?
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:14.559
Like, oh, serial.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:15.200
Serial.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:20.480
Like it's we like being a part of the mystery and the discovery.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:22.720
And I feel like the show did that really well.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.160
It did, it really did.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:35.359
And and cheaters pushed that boundary further than most of the other shows that had like kind of similar premises in terms of like just outlandish, real shit.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:39.279
So surveillance culture before it was normal.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:40.240
That's what this did.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:40.799
Totally.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:54.079
Like long before we had iPhones or location trackers or social media stalking, cheaters normalize something radical that's now been normalized, which is the idea that you should monitor your partner.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.799
I share my iPhone location with my husband.
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.119
So do I constantly because you have my iPhone?
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.720
Yes, because we're worried about murderers, guys.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:03.039
Yeah.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.279
Like, I'm not worried my husband's gonna cheat on me.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:07.440
I'm worried I'm going to be thrown into a car.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.079
100%.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.839
And if my iPhone happens to still be on, my husband's gonna be able to find me.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.079
You know, anyway, it never happens that way.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.119
Usually you're dead and like thrown over.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:18.799
You'll fight.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.519
I hope so.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:26.880
But then they're using your your data to kind of like trace what happens so that they can prosecute the guy.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.440
Yeah, it's not real justice, okay, but it is what it is.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:29.839
Yeah.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.279
So I know I was talking to her.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:32.319
I'm yawning.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:33.920
I'm so tired.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:36.480
No, I it's the drinking.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.200
Oh God.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:37.920
Wake up.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:43.599
I was talking to a um a recently recently retired police officer a couple of nights ago.
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:43.759
Yeah.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:47.119
And I was telling her, like, I am as progressive as they come.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:31:00.400
I said, but when it comes to cameras and surveillance, for the most part, I have no problem with it because I've seen far too many crime shows and I listened to way too many crime podcasts where you are solving cases based off.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:03.759
It's like, okay, let's look at the camera.
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:06.319
Oh, this person said they weren't anywhere near this person's house.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:07.839
Let's watch the traffic cameras.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:08.319
Yeah.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:09.279
You know what I'm saying?
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:15.599
Like, I don't, well, I just assume everywhere I go, I'm being, if I go into someone's home, I assume I'm being filled.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:16.559
And that's the thing, too.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:21.759
Anyone who has this illusion that privacy exists, it's like, you dumb motherfucker, do you have a smartphone?
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:23.519
It's in your pocket at all times.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.880
If the government wants to track you, they can fucking track you.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:31.759
They are why Jamie take a piss at Starbucks if I just know it.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:33.440
That happened.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:42.880
Unless you're Ted Kaczynski living in a goddamn shack without electricity or running water, you are being tracked, my friends.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:43.279
Yes.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.079
So get over it because cameras help solve crimes.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:50.160
That is the most um probably conservative view that I think I have.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.079
Whoa, there's a big ass spider on the ceiling.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:52.559
Anyway.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.160
Um daddy long legs.
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:54.880
I know, they're frowning.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:55.519
Hi, Daddy.
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:55.839
I know.
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:56.400
Hi, Daddy.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:57.519
Hi, Daddy.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:04.720
So the idea that you should monitor your partner, as we said, not only just hidden cameras, but private investigators, evidence gathering.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.559
This wasn't just an entertainment.
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:08.400
It's a template for behavior.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:13.680
Culturally, it landed at the exact moment that surveillance was becoming mainstream.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:18.720
This is right around the time of uh 9-11.
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.759
Palantir.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:22.079
Well, Palantir, but not quite.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.960
But 9-11 and the surveillance state.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:26.720
Well, that's where Palantir came from.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.359
Oh, where they did they start back far that far back?
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:29.759
Wow.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:30.240
Oh, yes.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:30.960
They've been around a while.
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:31.440
They're quite good.
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:33.839
I've been on a deep dive into Palantir.
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.119
You told me not to deep dive into Hantavirus, and I did.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:38.240
God damn it.
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.599
I hate that they took Palantir from War of the.
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:42.880
So how do you say it?
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.960
I think it's from I think it's Palantir.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:45.519
Oh, okay.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:46.000
I think.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:47.599
But and they were like the eyes.
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:47.839
Yeah.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:49.119
The all-seeing eye.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:56.000
It's like it's this thing you look into to see what silicone it's Sauron, bro.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:56.400
I know.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:04.000
You took something beautiful and nerdy and you made it dark and like a, you know, a device the government uses to buttfuck us.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:04.720
Literally.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.559
So now I'm contradicting myself.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.039
So culturally, again, so sorry.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.000
So think about this.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.720
Early 2000s, the rise of reality TV.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.039
Again, I already, wow, I'm way ahead of myself.
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:17.519
Post 9-11, expansion of surveillance culture.
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.119
Right?
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:20.960
Why can't I think right now?
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:21.599
What was that?
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:22.720
It's the alcohol.
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.079
The huge, I know it.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:25.599
The alcohol is really killing my brain.
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:27.039
Um blame it on the app.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:30.799
Massive document that passed both both houses of Congress.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.200
Oh, um, the the Oh my god.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.720
I'm so dumb.
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:38.720
Anyway, you know what I'm talking about.
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:40.079
This was following 9-11.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.400
Created the Department of Homeland Security, that whole deal.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:47.119
Oh my god, why can't I think it'll come to me probably toward the end of the episode because that's always how it happens.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:50.480
So the internet era, so growing digital transparency.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.680
So cheaters sits right at that intersection, right?
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.559
It turns suspicion into action, and then that action into spectacles.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:03.359
So talk to us about gender power and public humiliation.
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:06.319
You must have added that, but I don't think I went this deep on this shit.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.280
I I, as you know, I love going deep.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.440
Um, you know what I love too?
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.719
I love like when I'm listening to a podcast or a show and I'm yelling at them like you stupid bitches.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:17.679
It's this.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:18.000
Yeah.
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:19.840
Were you all just doing that just now?
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:20.400
Probably.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:21.119
Um, anyway.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:21.920
Um, all right.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.199
So the Patriot Act.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.320
Thank you.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:24.960
Sorry.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:25.760
I'm old.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.920
That's how it goes down to my brain.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:29.039
Takes a few minutes.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.199
Well, I started, we got you into Lord of the Rings.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.199
That's that's that's a hole I can't get down.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.119
But the Lord of the Rings is a fucking template for good versus evil.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:45.519
We are in it right now, and it always astounds me when conservatives are into Lord of the Rings or into Star Wars.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:48.239
I'm like, do you not understand that you are Star Wars?
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:50.800
And you're Darth Vader.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:51.519
Whatever.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:52.320
The Star Search.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.119
The Star Search, bro, with Ed McMahon.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.800
No, you're evil, you're bad, the dark star.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.760
What's the name of the The Death Star, bro?
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:04.159
You're not nerdy enough.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:05.199
I'm really not.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.000
I'm really not.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:07.039
Tell us about gender.
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:09.039
Anyway, stay in a woman.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.519
Cheaters ran runs on a very 2000 gender script.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.719
Men are predators, women are victor victims.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:18.639
I don't disagree with the menace.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:20.000
I'm like, what's changed?
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:20.880
What's changed?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:21.599
Yeah.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:26.159
So, but the actual data has been quietly disrupting for 20 years.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:26.480
Okay.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:26.719
All right.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:34.079
So the GG GSS 2000, 20% of men versus 13% of women report infidelity overall.
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:34.639
Okay.
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:40.639
Among adults ages 18 to 29, women slightly exceed men.
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.599
The gender gap in cheating is almost entirely an older cohort story.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:57.679
So it's kind of what we were talking about before that this idea that men cheat more than women, uh let me think of a not nice way to say this.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.079
I think if anyone's better at not getting caught, my money would be on the woman.
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:02.880
Yeah.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:04.880
We're just smarter.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.639
We're just better at this shit.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:07.360
I'm so sorry.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.719
Even when it comes to infidelity.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:09.599
Anyway, that's aside.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.000
All right.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.440
So Shirley Glass made a crucial observation early.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:19.760
The rise of workplace integration and internet access changed the opportunity structure for women.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.480
That makes sense.
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.880
So when opportunity equalizes, infidelity rates start to converge.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.559
And that structural observation, it's not a moral one.
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:28.960
Yeah.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:42.480
Perell push it, Astra Perell pushes this even further because she says whether the patriarchal pressure we put on men to be stoic, to perform, to never show need, the patriarchal pressure we put on that.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:42.880
Okay.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:44.000
Um I Astra.
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:44.800
They put on themselves.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:46.159
They've internalized it.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:46.880
Okay.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:47.360
Right.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:52.400
So don't it doesn't create the relational conditions that make affairs more likely.
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:59.599
Um, Terry Real, who I fucking love him, um, almost almost maybe more so than the Gottmans at this point.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:03.039
Um, so he agrees, and his whole relational life therapy framework.
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:06.239
Um, check out Tri SF if you're interested in learning about that.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.199
Um, argues that patriarchal condition is sorry, I know the microphone very shaky the microphone will pick up on all of that.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:14.239
Uh, we're shaking.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:15.280
Blame it on me.
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:16.079
Stay still.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:16.880
Um, I can't.
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:17.519
I'm Jewish.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:20.239
I know, I'm Italian, it's really hard.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.480
But it's also because how the table.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:23.119
Yes.
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:24.480
Don't put your elbows on the table.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:25.440
Wear your manners.
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.159
Seriously.
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:26.880
God damn it.
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:28.239
Not sitting up to me either.
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:29.679
Go on and be aware.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.000
Play with your fidget spinner that you stole from me.
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:32.480
I see it.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:32.800
I do.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:33.280
I see it.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.480
I need something to finish with her.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:35.280
I'll play with my hair.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:36.000
Um, all right.
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:47.039
So the whole the relational life therapy, which comes from Terrence Real Framework argues that patriarchal conditioning produces the disconnection that makes affairs feel inevitable to some men.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.960
So, oh, I'm not feeling safe with my wife.
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:52.079
I'm gonna go over here.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:53.599
It's like, talk to her, bitch.
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:53.920
Yeah.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:54.800
Anyway, sorry.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:56.800
I've had a lot of men this week.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:57.280
Sorry.
00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.199
Um, all right, emotional affairs data.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:08.400
So we've got 91.6% of women, 78% of men admit to having an emotional affair.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:08.719
Okay.
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:09.840
So again, hear that again.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:16.559
91% of women, which I would argue that a lot of those are with women.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:18.079
Okay.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:19.599
Do you have the data for that?
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:20.719
I don't have that for that.
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:30.880
But I feel that women are able to the difference between women and men to me is that women seek out these different needs amongst each other.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:32.079
Not sexually.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:32.639
Yeah.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:46.800
But we will, it's it's more, unfortunately for men, it's more culturally safe for women to have all these different areas that and and we're able to say, well, oh no, I can go out to my lunch with my guy friend.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:47.039
Yeah.
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:48.719
And it's more acceptable.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:53.039
We were talking about that in terms of the rise of radicalization amongst lonely men.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.199
It's just we a lot of men don't have close friends.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:00.639
And if they do, they don't feel comfortable having those sorts of conversations.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:06.800
And they might have a close man friend, but not necessarily a close woman friend, because the woman friend would be like, ah, you're creepy.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:08.800
Yeah, or you know, rightfully so.
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:19.760
I think it's great that you know they don't they don't talk much anymore because Bill doesn't work with this person and this person has like three kids, but Bill used to have a really close female friend.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:27.280
And I thought that was great because the two of them can talk and like bounce ideas off each other, you know, like, but I I don't know.
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.199
It doesn't that doesn't bother me.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:31.679
Well me neither.
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:45.679
Yeah, and my fiance works a lot with women too and does things, but it's like what I'm meaning is I I would include you as someone that I meet a lot of the emotional needs that I don't get from my partner, yeah, that makes sense.
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:46.800
Which I'm okay with.
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:47.199
Yeah.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.719
And I don't I think we just sort of oversimplify that well, men just don't have that need.
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:53.039
Yeah.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:54.559
And I just don't think that's true.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:01.199
But I think when it comes to emotional affairs, women can get a lot of that emotional connection from their female friendships.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.599
And you might sadly you might not get that as a man with your male friends.
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:21.920
Do you think if a man is lacking that emotional connection with his partner, he's cheating and fulfilling, like on the surface, it looks like just a sexual need, but really there's some sort of like emotional gratification that's transpiring?
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.880
For men, I think it's so different.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:40.079
Um, so yeah, I I I would like do men conflate okay, do men conflate physical intimacy with like um an emotional experience?
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:42.960
What but and uh sex can be emotional, obviously.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:46.480
That's why I think it's best with somebody that you really care about.
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:48.880
Um, because the emotions are intensified.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:41:10.079
But if some if in lieu of seeking out like, I don't know, that emotional connection with their partner or even with the woman they're cheating with, are they just simply resorting to I'm gonna I need a warm hole and that's gonna make me feel better, but it's not really gonna solve the problem because the problem's emotional.
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:21.920
I was gonna say, if you're that type of guy, like uh most of the men that I've worked with and the men that I've known, I don't think they can handle anymore.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:27.440
And they tend to pick partners where they're gonna get that need and they don't have much else to give.
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:27.920
Okay.
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.159
There's something missing in the relationship.
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:32.639
Okay.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:39.519
And it's not being named to the extent that you're either not telling the partner or they know they can't get it.
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:40.000
Okay.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:48.800
And yeah, if the next person, and and I think the I think any of us are susceptible if we're feeling very lonely and we're not feeling fulfilled.
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:49.599
That's what I'm saying.
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:59.199
If someone bring okay, so if someone, if anyone comes and is like this shiny new object, yeah, I do feel it's human nature to go, oh.
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:14.000
And what what the Gottmans would say is, all right, well, if you've already had these experiences enough times where you're not turning towards one another, yeah, and you come to condition yourself to go, well, why bother?
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.360
That's the worst part.
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:20.400
So if I have a couple that comes in and they're at this point where it's like, well, I'm not even gonna try.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:26.639
That's where you see we're gonna lead parallel lives, and that's where that opportunity may come.
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:26.960
Okay.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:31.360
And that's where you start to go, well, I deserve this because I'm not getting it from my partner.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:31.760
Yeah.
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:38.639
There and I haven't even told them that I feel this way, maybe, or I or all it's very complicated.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:46.239
And I'm sure it's unique to every couple, but I'm sure there's some through lines too, you know, at least with like heteronormative couples, right?
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.679
Or heterosexual couples, rather.
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:48.239
Absolutely.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:56.960
And with and the research that's been that has been done, that's being done with with gay couples and with non-binary couples is again, this is human behavior.
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:57.599
Yeah.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:08.880
If you're not turning towards someone, if if after 10 times you texted me, I mean, probably not me, but and I wasn't responding, yeah, most people go, I'm just gonna leave that.
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.800
Yeah, they're not interested, I'm gonna back away.
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.360
Right.
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.440
And that's not a that that's a signal that someone's sending you.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.920
Yeah, it's really terrible when it's your partner.
00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:20.480
Right.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.920
And if you can't talk about that, again, I don't know if that's what's happening in the cheaters people, right?
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:39.440
But typically what I see is people who at some point, and that's really, really hard to get the partner who's been cheated on, it's not their fault, but there's a bit there's been an environment that's been created.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:41.840
Yeah, if that is how it went down.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.400
Yeah.
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:46.159
Where again, that doesn't mean that that should be but they deserve it.
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:46.880
That they deserve it.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.000
That's the behavior.
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:48.800
Again, be a fuck.
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:52.320
I I've always been in the thing of like, if you're gonna do that, just tell me.
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:52.639
Yeah.
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.119
And give me the opportunity to say, well, then we're done.
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:55.440
Right.
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.639
Or yeah, go off and have your fun, and like I will too, or whatever.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:58.880
Yeah.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:06.079
But it's like, There's always, unless it's someone who is who is categorically a cheater.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:06.320
Yeah.
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:08.559
And it doesn't matter how wonderful you are, right?
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:11.440
And how connected you are, they're just a piece of shit that way.
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:11.920
Right.
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:14.880
It's it's it's that sociopathic narcissism the same way.
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:19.920
It doesn't, you know, Ted Bundy having a partner, you know, it's like doesn't make sense, right?
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:29.280
But it these are people where, in my opinion, I don't, I wouldn't say the relationship was probably that healthy in the first place.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:29.679
Yeah.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:37.280
So in the sense of like a Gottman perspective of their sound relationship house, there was their friendship might be there, but there's not a lot of turning towards.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:40.000
There's not a positive feeling about the relationship.
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:48.400
And, you know, again, cheating is the ultimate expression of what happens when we invent the proper walls and windows.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:48.800
Yeah.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.639
So that comes from Shirley Glass between couples and the public.
00:44:52.880 --> 00:45:00.000
What should be private reckoning between two people gets a window thrown open and the audience gets to see it.
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:00.480
Yeah.
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.079
And the show uh really is asking if you suspect the truth, how far should you go to find out?
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:06.800
Yeah.
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:15.519
And Kate uh Shirley Glass would say, Well, how did these walls and these windows shift in the first place?
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:24.400
The walls that go up versus the you and Bill uh you have rooms with windows, yeah, not walls.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:24.880
Right.
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:26.559
So there's a lot of transparency.
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.280
Therefore, you can look over and go, oh, that's what's going on.
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:30.320
I don't need to worry.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:30.639
Right.
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:35.360
If there's walls and you're not getting communication, you're constantly going to be wondering.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:35.679
Right.
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:37.199
So that's not a good setup.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:48.800
And I think this makes me, I would love to see what's happening in this type of environment where there is total like you know where everyone is all the time.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.280
Yeah.
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.199
I would be curious how a show like that would hold up in 2026.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.280
Yeah, but yeah, it's true.
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:55.679
It's true.
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.800
But you don't always know.
00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:02.079
Like you we have these relationships with our partners where we're like, of course I'm gonna share my my location with you.
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:05.280
But there are others that are like, oh, I feel like that's that's surveillance.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:06.480
And do you not trust me?
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:08.719
And then you're gonna possibly gaslight that person.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:11.760
It seems to not be a big deal for the younger population.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.960
Like teenagers, they're like, they all know like where their boyfriends are and girlfriends are all the time.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:17.760
And I'm like, really?
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:20.960
I'm like, dude, so they don't trust you, and they're like, oh no, no, we just like to know where we're.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.639
I'm like, that's so weird to me.
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.440
Well, it's a new phenomenon, and it's not one that we grew up with.
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:27.039
So I think it's a bit strange to us.
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:31.280
But at the same time, from you know, I might be abducted and taken away standpoint.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.119
I'm like, I want you to know where I'm at.
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:48.719
And it's interesting too, like within this windows and walls conversation that we're having, having, it's like within those windows and walls, all of a sudden you're integrating like a fucking reality show and a camera crew and like some creepy dude masquerading as a PI?
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.800
Like, what the fuck is happening?
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:55.039
That is where I those are the questions I still have.
00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:55.599
Yeah.
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:58.079
Like, what is it about these folks?
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:04.559
Is it, I think people, particularly in this country, I can't speak to any other country.
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.199
I live here, I was raised here, I know how fucked up Americans are.
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:09.039
I can't speak to any other culture.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:12.880
Um, but we are looking for our 15 minutes.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:24.559
Oh, so is there some sort of desire to have that 15 minutes of fame like bound up in your own fucked up inner personal shit?
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:25.519
I'm like, I don't get that.
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.000
Not so much what makes you and I watch this.
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.039
Like, I would be mortified.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:31.519
Yeah.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:34.880
Just be like, I want to see if my boyfriend's cheated on me.
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:36.400
It's embarrassing.
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:46.000
Well, and that's a that's a piece we didn't include in this, is is sort of the cultural look at the type of people that are that tend to be on these shows.
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:46.239
Yeah.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:58.079
And looking at that from sort of a quote class per a cast perspective, yeah, of well, I wouldn't want that exposed because I'm a professional and I wouldn't want my mother to see it.
00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:03.280
I don't even I I go through things with the podcast where I'm like, oh no, my mom's gonna know.
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.320
And I think that that's a good question for a future episode, right?
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:12.159
Like we haven't quite examined why people voluntarily go on the Jerry Springer show, right?
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.280
Cheaters, all these shows where it is degrading.
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:22.719
Yeah, it's degrading not just for the person doing the cheating, but I think it's degrading for the aggrieved party.
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.199
Yes, like it fucking sucks.
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:25.519
Yeah.
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:27.760
What compelled you to do this?
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.639
And that also begs the question is it real?
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.400
Well, do they get money from it?
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:33.119
I don't know.
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:34.079
That I don't know.
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:36.960
I mean, there must be some kind of compensation, I'm assuming.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:38.960
Like they, well, they come to where you're at.
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.519
It's not like Jerry Springer, where they're like, we're gonna fly you out right and put you up in a hotel.
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:49.360
But even that doesn't seem like motivation enough to be like, are you the father?
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:54.800
That's also more Povich, but and Jerry Springer, would they tell them, like, we're going on the Springer show?
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:58.639
Were they just like, we're going to Chicago or we're going over here to Burbank?
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.719
Dude, I don't know how they set that shit up.
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:05.920
I'm assuming the people that were going on the show like knew that they were being brought on the show.
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:07.920
No, yeah, it's just the homemade cover.
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:09.360
Oh my god.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:11.440
I don't think there was any like subterfuge.
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:17.280
Like it was like, we're going on Springer, you know what happens on Springer, you know what happens on Maury Povich.
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:18.639
Get ready, bitch.
00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:19.119
Yeah.
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.400
I I think that psychology is fascinating to me.
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:23.119
Fascinating to me.
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:24.400
We didn't look that up anyway.
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.159
You know, we're gonna conclude this with uh this is pure spectacle, right?
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:30.800
This is pop culture impact at its peak.
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:33.840
Cheaters was everywhere for 24 years.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:39.519
It influenced reality TV formats, tabloid storytelling, internet exposure culture.
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:40.480
Look at TMZ.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:42.800
Yeah, TMZ like runs up to people.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:49.760
Now they have TMZ DC, which I fucking love, where they're running up to elected officials and asking them questions.
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:50.639
I love it.
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:54.239
So, you know, that that formula is is really everywhere.
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:59.760
Its DNA shows up in viral cheating videos, caught in the act, TikToks, shows like catfish.
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:01.039
I mean this episode.
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:01.679
Oh, yeah.
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:03.920
This show, this this list could go on and on.
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:14.079
So, and the host Joey Greco, he became a cultural icon, described as a relentless pursuer of truth, often putting himself in danger to tell that truth.
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:16.719
Oh, what a great guy you are, Joey Greco.
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:17.360
Okay.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:19.920
So the show really blurred genres, right?
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.679
We've got part documentary, part performance, part moral theater.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:28.239
It's it's like Jerry Springer meets surveillance capitalism.
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:30.880
I love the term surveillance capitalism.
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:34.320
Yeah, it it it it really, yeah.
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:36.320
These shows, that's the best way to describe them.
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.239
So, you know, why does this still matter?
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:40.159
So cheaters didn't end that long ago.
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.039
We're not talking about a show that ended 20 years ago, it just ended a few years ago.
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:46.719
I had to watch the last season.
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:47.440
Let's watch it.
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:49.039
Maybe pandemic era.
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:50.719
Yeah, 2020 cheaters.
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.920
I don't know, and I don't even know where it was being broadcast.
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:57.039
I'm gonna figure this shit out.
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:04.400
You know, it ended its run in 2024, but the legacy is everywhere because today we track each other's locations, as we said.
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:12.639
Sometimes we check each other's phones, we investigate partners online, and you know, we've internalized the logic of the show, really.
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:17.760
The difference, now we're all the investigators, we all have the tools to be able to do this.
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:29.440
So, final thought here really is that cheaters didn't just document betrayal, it redefined how we think about privacy, trust, and what we're entitled to know.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.079
If asked a question, we're still answering.
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:38.719
It asked a question we're still answering, which is if you suspect the truth, how far should you go to prove it?
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:42.159
And I think more importantly, is this even the truth?
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:44.559
Was this completely contrived?
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:46.000
Was this an act?
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:47.199
Was any of this real?
00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:48.559
Would it matter to the audience?
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:49.760
Doesn't it doesn't?
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:51.440
It's entertainment, pure and simple.
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:57.760
Yeah, I think the the fact that people think it's real, yes, makes it more.
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:02.079
Yeah, I mean, that's all this is, right?
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:06.559
The reinvention of that that intrigue, that mystification of the audience.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.000
That, like, you know, it's it's it's a magic show.
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:12.559
Yes, in the most fucked up way.
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.800
Do you know he had a BA in psychology and a master's in counseling?
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:17.760
Joey Greco.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:19.920
Holy shit, I had no idea.
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:20.400
Yeah.
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:20.960
Wow.
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:27.360
I love that if you watch it, they dedicate the show to people who have been cheated on, basically.
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:30.559
They're like, this is to the survivors of cheating.
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:32.000
Like it's very dramatic.
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:34.000
And that's the other thing I think that makes it so good.
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:35.119
Where's my ribbon?
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:36.400
It's so dramatic.
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.920
Like, so much of it is in black and white surveillance camera.
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.000
Yeah, it's fucking intriguing.
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:45.039
All right, you guys, we're gonna go watch some cheaters.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:54.000
We hope you enjoyed this uh almost hour-long uh segue into the wild world of cheaters.
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:57.440
Uh, follow us on TikTok where we say lots of crazy stuff.
00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.239
We're TWAT TWATJC.
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:02.800
And oh God, Jesus Christ.
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:04.800
I don't get it.
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:06.159
Anyway, don't get it, do that.
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:07.840
So we love you guys.
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:08.800
Thanks for listening.
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:10.400
Uh, don't cheat on your partner.
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:12.960
Don't do concept, don't do it.