Tim: [00:00:02] Okay, so I'm going to welcome my very special guest to The Wellness Docket for this episode. This is my wife, Cheyanne, who is a nurse and owner of Beacon Clinical Group, a nurse consulting education company in near Woodstock, New Brunswick. And, just kind of as an introduction here, we've been talking for a while about doing an episode together, and we just didn't know what the right time was. Last week we were talking about, you know, what are the kind of lanes we could pick. And one of the topics that we came up with was kind of a review of the last eight episodes that we've had so far and kind of do our top five episodes and kind of talk about each topic that happened from there. And so it was kind of funny how you can chime in on this, Cheyanne, that we were talking about it, I didn't even realize you had actually listened to pretty much all the last episodes, so that was nice to hear.
Cheyanne: [00:01:04] Yeah. So I… So hi everyone. So I do listen to your podcast. I mean, this has been something that you've talked about for a long time, and there's been various iterations of something like this in the past. And I actually was looking back and it was more than ten years ago that you and I first started making videos together. And so they were, we did them on the law firm Facebook page, and we used to talk about, I was like the non-lawyer who would ask the question and all those pieces. And so this feels reminiscent of those days. Yeah. So thanks for having me, having me on. And we, yeah, we certainly had to narrow down kind of what we were going to talk about. And I'm really excited, given the point in time that you're at with this podcast and a great announcement that you have to make today to be honoured as the guest and to do a look back with you.
Tim: [00:01:55] Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And so the announcement that you're making is I do have some sponsorship funding through the Canadian Bar Association New Brunswick branch and the Lawyers Assistance Program. And so just thank you so much to them for making this possible for another period of time. And it helps us get as much good content out there as possible. And so I thought this was going to be a fun episode. This is like, no holds barred, right? Like we're not gonna.
Cheyanne: [00:02:23] Yeah. No, this is like…
Tim: [00:02:25] No preparation. I don't know what your answers are. You don't know what my answers are.
Cheyanne: [00:02:28] Yeah. No. And they'll get to know us through this. But when we were talking about it, just knowing our two personality styles and both of us being very Type-A people, I was like, you make your top five and I'll make my top five because I don't want to have to agree with you.
Tim: [00:02:43] Right? And then we were talking about it earlier today and you started saying something and I was like, no, no, no, no, don't ruin this for me. I don't want to. So…
Cheyanne: [00:02:50] You don't want to know my tidbits.
Tim: [00:02:52] I guess the first question that I wanted to ask here is, how do you see this going? Do you want to do like, I'll do one and then you do one. Or do you want to read your full top five? And then we talk about it then my top five? I'm leaving it completely up to you.
Cheyanne: [00:03:06] Okay, well, I'd like to have choice. So I have a confession to make. I actually have a top seven.
Tim: [00:03:12] Uh oh.
Cheyanne: [00:03:13] So this is what I'm hoping, though. I'm rolling the dice that some of my top ones are going to also be your top ones. So I think we should go one for one, because then I was thinking I could cross some things off my list.
Tim: [00:03:26] I had. So just so you know, I had some honourable mentions here. So.
Cheyanne: [00:03:30] Oh, honourable mentions okay. Yep. That's good language. That's maybe the language I'll use if you don't capture my highlights. So yes, and I will say that I have listened to all the podcasts, and I'm surprised that you're surprised that I listened to them.
Tim: [00:03:45] Yeah. So the funny part of the story was that you had said like, well, I'm driving somewhere and I'm on the road for like 2 or 3 hours at a time. So basically when I'm bored I can listen to this and and it was endearing. You did say it kind of makes me hear my husband's voice, so that's nice.
Cheyanne: [00:04:03] Yes. I was driving from literally one end of New Brunswick to the other to attend a nursing related meeting, and it was hunting season is what kind of when the first time through, in and so for those of you who aren't from hunting areas, that's a big deal. And it was moose hunting season and I was driving through like the middle of nowhere. It was me and hunters. And to have your comforting voice along on the ride was really great. And just to hear you kind of living out your passion project was was really good. So yeah, I do, I do bulk listen, I don't get it every month, but.
Tim: [00:04:37] Well, I mean, that's how, by the way, not to go too far off topic here, but that's what I listen to a lot of podcasts, like when I'm in the car and I just, you know, I've, I've kept myself off the news now because I can't handle that. So I gotta find something to listen to. And I find at least I could be learning something or engaged in the conversation. So.
Cheyanne: [00:04:56] Yes. And we've learned that I can't listen to Dateline podcasts when I'm driving alone in rural areas.
Tim: [00:05:04] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:05:05] Because I get convinced something's going to happen to me. So this is, this was certainly more comforting.
Tim: [00:05:09] This is the safer one. So do you want me to start first?
Cheyanne: [00:05:13] Sure. You go first. We'll do one for one. That would be great.
Tim: [00:05:15] I'll just say that these, my top five list are in no particular order. I really.
Cheyanne: [00:05:24] Such a lawyer thing to say. Such a lawyer.
Tim: [00:05:26] Well that’s the thing, because I didn't, I don't want anybody to think that anyone is better or farther on my list. I just think they were ones. When I sat down, I let myself just. What were the first five things that came to my mind? And so I think that hopefully there's not a ton of overlap because I want to cover a lot of the episodes here, because I think there's a lot of really good stuff in there for people to listen to. So I'm going to start number five again. No particular order was Matt Hiltz and his incredible story as a lawyer in New Brunswick and having some traumatic incidents when he was a child and just how he's kind of grown in his authentic self, and talking about his mental health and also, you know, one of his favourite things was the book The Four Agreements. And so I actually just read that over the Christmas holidays. So I can thank Matt for that, you know, I…
Cheyanne: [00:06:22] You literally took it with us on our vacation. Like it went, got on an airplane and he read it. Yes.
Tim: [00:06:27] Yeah. I mean, what better time to try to reflect on over the Christmas break. And I think that that's it's a really good short read. Once you get through the first, the first little bit of it is a little out there. But once you kind of really get into it. So I think that's my number five. I just really appreciated the candor talking to somebody. You know, I was in first year law school when he was in third year law school. And that's what the whole point of this podcast. Right? It's to really open up and have conversations and it just felt so authentic. So, you know, that's my number five on the list.
Cheyanne: [00:07:04] Yeah. And I would just say that I found his processing and where he's at with that now, he was very gracious when he was thinking about interactions that he's had with other lawyers and thinking like, why? You know, really that lens of like, why is someone responding that way? And could that be, you know, related to a past trauma or kind of what's going on? And so, yeah, I just, I really appreciated his perspective.
Tim: [00:07:33] Yeah. It was a really good one. So, yeah, people check that one out because I really felt like I learned a lot from that.
Cheyanne: [00:07:42] Certainly. Yeah, definitely. So my kind of, and mine aren't in any order. I'm not going to number them. I'm just going to share them. So my kind of one to talk about was the gentleman who, and this is one of the earlier podcasts who talked about kind of that descent into alcoholism and then, descent into, like, using drugs and how he was doing that still while practicing. Right? And so just him talking about that and talking about the pressures and like, choosing that as a coping mechanism. And then in terms of like it was just very interesting for me, like the frameworks he had built for himself at first to kind of try to keep it on the rails like, well, I only drink when I get home and I have like four rum and Cokes and two bottles of wine. But like, he, and it was just very interesting and how it just really got out of control. And I thought there was a lot of power in that story. And, you know, he just told the story of, you know, ultimately entering like a treatment facility. And he talked about his wife being supportive of him. And so that that just really was like an eye-opener for me. Like just in hearing his story and thinking he could be really anyone. And we do know statistically, your profession is more prone to alcoholism and addictions than perhaps some others. So, yeah, that was just very, a very honest story. And I really appreciated him sharing that and then sharing it from the perspective of being on the other side. And some of the strategies he uses to kind of manage his stress.
Tim: [00:09:25] Yeah. So that's Jason Ward.
Cheyanne: [00:09:27] Yeah.
Tim: [00:09:30] From Ontario. And what was what? You probably don't know what the viewers and listeners wouldn't know is that that interview, he was actually in his car on the side of the road on the 401 because he got stuck in traffic and said, is this okay that we do it this way? Yeah. Like, go right ahead.
Cheyanne: [00:09:47] Oh. That’s awesome.
Tim: [00:09:48] Background on there or whatever. And it was just yeah, really open conversation and, you know, every day. So Cheyanne is kind of our office manager, part time office manager, and, you know, being married to somebody in the profession. And I literally have a couple friends that have battled alcoholism and/or substance abuse. And there are people you might not think would go through that.
Cheyanne: [00:10:15] Yeah. Yeah
Tim: [00:10:16] And it's just, you know, to hear somebody honestly talk about that. And again, it gets into the discussion of it. Right? Like when we're talking about these things we're working towards doing more.
Cheyanne: [00:10:30] Yeah. Yeah I think that's important. And I should just share for everyone because they don't know us contextually. So I am a part-time office manager of the law firm, and I actually rent office space from the firm adjacent to it and run my own business out of there. And so I'm very much in and out of both spaces. And so that's, I think we're six years later into it and we still haven't gotten sick of each other, so that's really exciting. Although when we come to work, generally we're doing different things, like we're going in different directions and meet for lunch and, and such. So yeah, I do feel like I maybe get a bit more of a taste of your work life. It certainly opened my eyes because when we first, when you first were practicing, I worked in a completely different setting. And so really, the, you know, you're getting home, you're got kids, someone's picked up kids from the daycare or making supper, unless it's kids eat free at Pizza Delight and then we're going there. But I don't think that I had a real glimpse into your world. And so this has given me a bit more of a bird's eye view. So.
Tim: [00:11:39] So, okay, so next, next one on mine. I've got numbers on this. So again, no, no particular order. My number four was Dylan Gibbs. A recent interview and just discussing how he meant met this Sam Parr, who is a podcaster, business owner, community builder, and he met him at a conference, was thinking about changing from this newsletter business to In-Laws, which is now a community of lawyers that he has built. And he was kind of saying to this guy, and you can look, there's a LinkedIn post I'll share with this. And he was kind of saying, like, you know, do you really think like that, that lawyers would want this and they're so busy and whatever? And this gentleman had said to him like that is kind of self-defeating language, right? Like you need to test it out. You need to go talk to these people and find out. And then, you know, once you get outside of your own comfort zone with that, he found out that a lot of people really wanted that. The community aspect is something that has been missing in the practice, and I can certainly attest to that, especially post-COVID, things have really changed. And we don't, you know, have the same community. So that just, I don't know, my hair, the hair in the back of my neck stood up on that. I was just like, wow. Like, that's amazing. Right place, right time. And I actually started thanks to Dylan. I started listening to that podcast now and there's some great ideas, and so I've added that one onto my list. So more learning that's going on with me. And, you know, the one of the podcasts is called My First Million. And it's pretty amazing to listen to some of these business people talking about everything under the sun. It's pretty no holds barred discussions. But then there's a lot of neat little anecdotes in there that I've taken away from that.
Cheyanne: [00:13:37] Yeah. Okay. So my next point, and you're going to laugh when I say this, is just the whole concept when I look at everyone's story who's shared and they've been so kind and generous to share, it is the word pivot.
Tim: [00:13:59] Okay, pivot.
Cheyanne: [00:13:59] And so pivot. It’s like getting back to.
Tim: [00:14:04] The best episode of…
Cheyanne: [00:14:05] The best episode of friends ever, everybody should know pivot. But in everyone's story, and they're all different, like in different places in their journey. They had a moment. Some it was lows, but other people had moments where they made a pivot. And so what I thought and what I felt and what I heard in that story, and again, I come at this as a registered nurse, you know, from a different perspective is how powerful in that story that there was something that wasn't going ultimately the way they wanted it to go, and they were brave enough to make that pivot. And so I just wanted to like, honour and acknowledge that in everyone's story. And they pivoted different ways. Right?
Tim: [00:14:47] Right. Every single one of them is a different story.
Cheyanne: [00:14:50] It's different. And it's… And so I just felt, you know, thinking about the potential viewers and people listening to that, just knowing that you do have control over your life. You can make a pivot. I hope you have a supportive spouse and family, like, around you to help you with that. But sometimes I find we can just get so narrowly focused in like, this is my world, and I work at this law firm and I want to make partner. And my whole world is this law firm, right? And just really kind of, I think from a mental health perspective, knowing that, you know, sometimes it's, it can be a bit of a break. It can be a lookup, it can be, you know, making a plan to sustain, you know, better health in that time. Or maybe it's a total, a big pivot. So yeah, that's my second one that I'm not numbering. But it's my second point to share.
Tim: [00:15:48] I'll leave it. I'll try not to cringe too much at this. So my next one, my numbering, my number three one is Lindsay Mesa, who was a law student around the same time when I was in law school. And her story talking about losing her father, who was a judge. And that connects with me because I lost my father when I was 25, very young. And I think that, you know, just resonates with me as, as you say, a pivot point in your life, because those big life events are kind of the things that force us to really look at what's important, what we're willing to put up with. And really what resonated with me with that, and something that I really want to see change in the profession is, you know, her story about the way she felt she was treated sometimes after she came back, right? Like people knowing full well you had just come back from this, you're still grieving. And then people are saying like, where's this? Why didn't you get this done? Or how? You know what I mean? Like, there's a place for compassion in the profession. And I think that that's the one time, or one of the more important times when you've got to give somebody a little bit more leniency. And that, that really just kind of resonated with me, especially because of my own personal experiences. But I'm sure many people would have similar experiences, whether it's a loss of a job or whatnot.
Cheyanne: [00:17:19] Yeah. Okay. So my next one, and so I'm relying on you to fill in the names of these folks because my, my… this is so me. My notes are all about like, feelings, right? And reflections and all those different things. And I love that you're coming in with numbers and like the exact pieces, but the idea first came to me when I was listening to the lady who runs the, like, outsourcing legal work.
Tim: [00:17:47] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:17:47] Business.
Tim: [00:17:48] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:17:49] And so that's, she used a word like it's a release valve. And so in turn…
Tim: [00:17:59] I'm pretty sure it was me.
Cheyanne: [00:18:01] I was pretty sure. You have, like, a photographic memory who, like, remembers all these things. So that's.
Tim: [00:18:08] Why.
Cheyanne: [00:18:08] Play that tape.
Tim: [00:18:09] Back and find where it was.
Cheyanne: [00:18:10] Yeah. You do. You say that you're like. You just rewind it back. Well, in that discussion, I remember thinking. So she was talking about the benefits of being able to outsource some parts of it, of your legal practice. Right? And kind of what letter to make that decision and to start that business. And really she only wanted enough to kind of keep herself busy, you know, in a mat leave situation. And then it's grown to this large business. But through that discussion, they talked about, you know, not only is it the benefit for her and for the other subcontractors, but also for the law firm. And so she… those law firms. So she gave an example of someone being said, you know, thanks to your services, I was able to take my first vacation in so long. Or thanks to doing this, I was able to go to my kid’s Christmas concert. And so somewhere in that discussion.
Tim: [00:19:01] In our profession, right?
Cheyanne: [00:19:02] Yeah. And I just thought, yeah, release valve like, that's, you need to have like, your job is such a pressure cooker that you need to have some release valves. Right? And so prior to that, I was really thinking only about, you know, having a self care plan, you know, doing your favourite hobbies. Sometimes I will literally tell you to go play music or I will, like, send the dog in to you just, you know, knowing that those are things that are good for you. But I just thought, yeah, you do need all levels of release valves, all levels of like ways. So, you know, your hobbies and the things that you love, but also at work. Are there some things that can be outsourced? Can you set some priorities? And then those little things throughout the day, you know. And so, everyone has their own rhythm and routine. But one of the rhythms and routines of our law firm is that one of our dogs comes to work on Fridays, and that's a highlight. Everybody knows Chester. We do have two dogs. The other dog is not well behaved enough to come to work. No, not at all. So that's, you know, that's kind of a, I think of that as like a little bit of a release valve. Like, it's just a little change. It's something, you know, that you enjoy or it just… I think building those things into your practice are really important.
Tim: [00:20:28] Yeah. So that was Erin Cowling of Flex Legal. And I can attest to that. I've used them many times. And yeah, I mean, it's been amazing when you need a lot of work done quickly. You might not have all of the resources, or you don't want to take up your resources to do certain things. It's, it is a great release valve, right? Like and it gets done. And I've had nothing but great feedback from clients. I mean, they don't care as long as the work gets done, right? And that's the key part of it that helps because it is… I don't know if I would have ever fully appreciated before starting practice how busy it can get, right? Like how if you let it, it'll run your life, right? Like, you'll be 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Always thinking about stuff. You're never, I never leave work thinking like, oh, there you go. I got it all done today. There's always going to be more.
Cheyanne: [00:21:31] Yeah. And it really, like, if I think back, like even to I mean law school was very busy. Articling was very busy. Starting practice was busy. I think I've stopped waiting for it to settle down. Like, it's just not going to. Just no, no. And that's okay. You know, you just need to recalibrate and readjust. But it is very demanding. Yeah.
Tim: [00:21:57] No, I think that's a good one. So, and I actually, we should say that we were talking to a friend today and we were talking about that interview with Erin. And one of the things that really resonated with the person that we were talking to was the discussion kind of about, you know, if I could just get hit by this car, like, not enough to injure me seriously, but enough that I would like. And the person said to us like, no, that's actually like a legitimate feeling, like it might be
Cheyanne: [00:22:24] Like very relatable.
Tim: [00:22:26] We don't want to talk about all the time, but we've all kind of had some sort of feeling similar to that. And so I think that's really where this podcast gets gets into it. Right? It's not, we're not afraid to talk about those things that are probably a little bit uncomfortable, but they, I hope that those uncomfortable conversations continue to make a difference and more people will see that and hear those stories and then start talking to other people, right? Because the worst thing you can do is feel shamed and then just not talk.
Cheyanne: [00:22:53] Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a dark hole. Right? Like when you really isolate yourself and you're not talking and sharing with others. Like that's really in the gentleman who unfortunately lived with kind of addiction. Like in his story, I could see that he just, it was just his way of coping and his way in his world. Right? Do you know what I mean? Like. Yeah.
Tim: [00:23:18] Right. So which. Where? That was mine. Right? Or did you just do one I can't remember.
Cheyanne: [00:23:23] Gosh, let me check off my list. What did I just check off?
Tim: [00:23:27] If you'd have numbered…
Cheyanne: [00:23:30] But remember, I have seven, okay? Not five, because I don't do honourable mentions. The last thing I checked off was release valve.
Tim: [00:23:39] Okay. Okay, so that was yours, I think.
Cheyanne: [00:23:41] Okay.
Tim: [00:23:42] So I'm going to go on to my number two. It was actually the first episode with Manisha, but she goes by Esha Gupta, talking about getting outside more five sights and five sounds.
Cheyanne: [00:23:56] Yeah.
Tim: [00:23:57] Tips just. Yeah. And I always ask everybody at the end of every interview, like, if there's one and I'm going to ask you that Cheyanne so I'm going to put you on the spot later. So it gives you time to think about this. That one really resonated with me. If there was, one thing you could change is that people get outside more, five sights, five sounds. Look for things around you or things that you hear with your senses. And really what, what that does is gets you out of your own head. Right? Like we're constantly in our own heads, doing work, thinking deeply about something. And you've got to take that time to do that. And so that was one that I've, that I listened to and I was like, okay, I'm going to really try to implement that. I'm going to really… I'm not sure I'm fully successfully done it yet, but I'm working on it. Like, you know, something that I think about.
Cheyanne: [00:24:46] Mhm. That's good. My next one in no particular order was just some comments. And again it was threaded throughout. I'm not directly quoting one person, but talking about the next generation of lawyers and talking about the next generation of lawyers, maybe not tolerating this previous culture and workplace. And, I just found that really interesting. It was a little bit of a thread through a couple of them. But I just, you know, that transcends into other professions as well. I'm a nurse. And so we're seeing that with our new grad nurses as well. And we certainly have heard about it. We have articling students in the law firm. And so they talk about that. And so I do think that that is maybe one of the draws for people to come to our law firm, because we do really value people. We value... So I'm again going to use nursing language, but we use a person-centered approach in our office. So really honouring who you are as a person and what's important to you, which is basically what happens when a nurse ends up in a law firm. She's going to bring all that perspective in there and thinking about what's important to you and what's important to you, and how do we all work together? And like and I think I started to normalize conversations around, like, wow, that was kind of stressful day, guys. Like, how are you feeling? Like, how does that make you feel? And so, and I think prior to, you know, the introduction of this role and me becoming involved, I don't know that those exact discussions were happening, you know, happening.
Cheyanne: [00:26:28] And so, we really in nursing, we value, like we do critical debriefing after incidents, like there's all these things that are happening in order to kind of help us cope in longevity. And so I just think… I, you know, I think of the next generation and I'm wanting them to have a sustainable career and kind of building more of those practices in like right from the beginning. And I think it's good. I think it's good that they have different expectations. You know, I think they really will kind of lead the change. And it's nice to see, you know, from my perspective, better gender representation and different things like that. And we, a couple of years ago, we went to an event. It was people who were inducted for 50 years of being at the bar. And it was like all men. Right? And then, but then when I look like kind of at the current years and different things, you see kind of more of that. And so I think there's a lot of changes generationally and with gender representation and other things that will hopefully help change that culture and hopefully there's not it's not too much of a rough road to get there.
Tim: [00:27:37] But yeah, I think we see it quite a bit. And you're right, that is a through line through multiple conversations that I've had with people about that. And I think that, yeah. No, totally, totally agree with you. And I'm somewhat hopeful for the future. I think we're making some good strides.
Cheyanne: [00:27:57] Mhm. Yeah, I think we are. And I think we have to. I mean, I know in healthcare again, not to relate it back to my world, but we need these registered nurses, these nurses that are graduating. We need them to settle into the workplace, for it to be a collegial environment and for them to be supported, because we want them to stay, you know, and I think it's the same in your field.
Tim: [00:28:19] Yeah. For sure. Okay. My turn?
Cheyanne: [00:28:22] Your turn.
Tim: [00:28:23] Okay. So my, I guess, again, this is number one on my list, but not necessarily number one is, mine was Jason Ward as well. And I think just the flow of our conversation and it really felt like we were just kind of, you know, shooting the stuff as, as one might say. And we really just got into it and just had a really nice conversation about his history and the alcohol and drug addictions. And, so overall, that was one of my favourites. We had a lot of laughter too, right? Like, yeah, there was a lot of like, you know, this doesn't always have to be serious. And that's kind of one of the reasons why you and I wanted to do an episode of this, just to have a little bit more fun with it. Create a list of some of the impactful moments of the first several episodes, and just take a minute to reflect back on those to think about, you know, what really made an impact?
Cheyanne: [00:29:26] Yeah, in my last one, I'm not numbering them, but my last one, or point to share is around consistently what everybody described. Everyone did a very, did it very well in their own way, of the pressures of the profession. So in terms of, you know, within the firm pressures with clients, meeting clients’ expectations, managing their expectations. You know, a few people talked about, you know, people aren't coming to us generally on their best day of their life. Right? It's generally because, you know, there's been a challenge in their life and they're coming to seek support. And so then a few people commented about, you know, interactions with other legal colleagues and the pressure of being in court. And so that just made me really reflect kind of on the role. And this is just my own personal reflection on being the spouse of a lawyer. And made me think about that. And so I think that there's been times, you know, kind of what I see is there might be days when you come home and you're a little bit quieter. Or, not often, but occasionally I'll be like, you're not in the courtroom.
Cheyanne: [00:30:40] Do you know what I mean? Like, literally, the kids and I are, like, peeling carrots for supper. Like, there's… nothing deeper is happening. Like, we're pretty basic. And then also, to kind of that lead up and ramp up to court. And I will freely admit that I was not the best lawyer spouse in the early days because as you ramped up to get ready for court and you, you know, would be preparing and the night before, you, like, shine your shoes and it's almost like, you know, preparing for battle a little bit. Right? And and so I was just like, well, what's going on? Like, you know, and so I don't think I really appreciated back then kind of really that it was like that, you know, there is like a lot of pressure that way. And so, you know, I just think that it just gave me more thoughtful reflection about that and about being a supportive, a supportive spouse or like the benefit of having that or just people around you who understand. I mean, they might not be directly in it, but…
Tim: [00:31:48] I think it's like any profession, you know, nurses have to deal with things that I could never deal with. You know, doctors, firefighters, police officers, anything that's like that kind of profession, there's always going to be things that, you know, you can't talk about, but they kind of stick with you, right? And we don't talk about it enough. But, you know, there's probably everybody who practices day to day depending on the area has some form of trauma that they carry with them. And I feel lucky enough that it, most stuff doesn't bother me. You know, but there are a few for sure. And when it does, you know, I.... And I don't always notice it, which is kind of interesting. Like, I don't really think about it, but it might be more outwardly visible to like someone around me before I even think like, oh, like that, I am carrying that around a little bit. Like, that was, that was a tough one. Right. And…
Cheyanne: [00:32:49] Yeah. Yeah, it certainly can be. Very rewarding, though, you know, it is a very rewarding profession. And to be able to help people, and to do that part and to bring that expertise, right? That they don't have and to see them through a situation.
Tim: [00:33:07] Yeah. That's kind of what keeps me going on. The days when it gets really hard is the ones that I'm like, okay, we finally got that one across the finish line. Like it wasn't pretty. You know, there were some really difficult decisions that needed to be made. And you know that that's my greatest honour is seeing people achieve whatever goal it is that they're looking to achieve and kind of watch that weight come off them when they get out on the other end of it.
Cheyanne: [00:33:36] Yeah, yeah, that is nice.
Tim: [00:33:38] Okay, so you’ve got two more. So I want to, I want to hear those because I've got some honourable mentions that I think.
Cheyanne: [00:33:44] Oh so you actually said my two more. So I'll just highlight them quickly. So I had Matt Hiltz and his whole piece. So that was one of mine as well. Whatever my extras were, you had you covered them.
Tim: [00:33:58] So let's go to what was your… you can, you can out this. What was your biggest criticism of the first several episodes. You had, you had one big one that I thought was insightful.
Cheyanne: [00:34:12] Oh, you want me to share my criticisms?
Tim: [00:34:14] Just the one.
Cheyanne: [00:34:16] Just. Okay. Just one. Well, and I don't know that I'm going to share the I don't know that I'm going to share the right one. Well, one thing that I just shared along the way, you know, as you were doing this and again, coming from my own perspective is just ensuring that we're capturing everybody's voice. So not just the voice of the people who've made such a pivot that they're out of active practice. And I respect that for some people, that is what they've done. And that's great. I just, you know, as you were going through your list and, and working through, I was like, let's make sure that there's still people who are there who are still in the active practice, giving them a lifeline, too. Right? And that's really where you are, you know, and so that was my, you know, hope, maybe not critique, but just that. And that's certainly I've seen that like, I've seen that come through and starting to see that line come through and, and I can't wait to see what the next eight podcasts bring. I know they'll be kind of more of that voice.
Tim: [00:35:21] I think, you know, in the future, I want to make sure we diversify a little bit more like, I'd love to get one on neurodivergence in the legal profession. I think that's a really important topic. And so, you know, I'm excited about, I'm glad that you're along the ride, along for the ride with me on this one when I say, hey, I want to do this crazy idea. Okay. Let's go. Yeah, go ahead and do it. I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Cheyanne: [00:35:48] Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you have to like, support, you know, a passion project. And I'm just very I would like to say thank you to the Canadian Bar Association for their sponsorship, because it's no longer personally funded by the Culberts. So thank you, too. But, you know, I think it's really important. This is really important work. And, I'm just proud of you for, you know, for doing your part and starting these conversations. So.
Tim: [00:36:20] Yeah, thank you very much. And I would let people know that I'm going to put a note at the end of this with the Lawyer's Assistance program number. On that, I am also on that committee, full disclosure on that. And, you know, the Homewood Health counseling that you can get, it's pretty good, pretty efficient, timely. And it can really help out in certain circumstances. So people aren't alone with that. Right? Like, it's tough. You don't really know who to turn to in those circumstances. And when you have those resources that are available and it's free, right? Like if you're a member of the Law Society, I don't know the exact specifics of it, but it's there for you throughout your career. And I think that that's something that people should, should use early on rather than let things get too far down the road.
Cheyanne: [00:37:12] Definitely, definitely. And it's so, it's so valuable. Again, this is, I'm just speaking from my own expertise, and I was previously a manager, so I managed many nurses. You know, you can ask for an evening appointment. You can ask for it to be virtual. You can ask for it to not be somebody from your community. Statistics that get reported back are just general usage numbers. So it's not like Tim Culbert from Woodstock, New Brunswick called because his wife is driving him crazy. No, it's like it's like, you know, never, never, ever. It's just more like general statistics. So, you know, of the thousand lawyers, you know, 52 used it this year or something like that. And so it's, I just want to, you know, reassure people that that that is available and don't be scared to put some parameters around it that make you feel comfortable to use it.
Tim: [00:38:08] Mhm. So now the big question here is if you, as a lawyer's wife, if there was one thing that you could change about the legal profession regarding mental health, what would it be?
Cheyanne: [00:38:20] I kind of have two little thoughts.
Tim: [00:38:21] Okay.
Cheyanne: [00:38:22] So the first is, it's such a rigid system. And I understand why it's rigid and I understand, you know upholding those things. But there doesn't always seem time to be human.
Tim: [00:38:40] Yeah.
Cheyanne: [00:38:41] And so, that example I would give is unfortunately when my mother passed away a number of years ago, obviously not planned, you know, she had been living with a chronic illness, ALS, for years, and then she ended up dying a little bit unexpectedly, like it happened quite quickly. And you had a trial booked. And so, just knowing that, like, you were going to have to then like, plead the case to have that moved and all those things and fortunately it did work out. But I just, you know, just wish that process was a bit more human in that way.
Tim: [00:39:16] I definitely and I think that that's… it's hard when you're in a system that's the rules are in place to be fair. Right?
Cheyanne: [00:39:25] Yeah.
Tim: [00:39:25] Yeah. That everybody has a fair shake at that. But then there are times when you have to know that, you know, even though it might not be exactly what something says, you've got to be human. And there's a fairness to it.
Cheyanne: [00:39:39] That, so that's kind of like a wish that I had. Although I do think in that, that we need to have timely access to justice for the clients too. Right? And so then that's not creating a huge other delay.
Tim: [00:39:49] You're preaching to the choir on that one.
Cheyanne: [00:39:51] Yeah. And then my second second thought or second wish would be just around more conversations like this. More conversations where we normalize talking about the stressors of work. And so, and do that, I think that would be great. We’re starting to see it more in other professions. And I would love to see you guys step up and really lead the way in that. You've led the way in a lot of things, you know? So this would be… I know you all have it in you to do that. I would say there might be a little bit of, for some, some ego that they need to let go to kind of get past some of those things. But I think that that would be really great for everyone. It would be great for your clients. It would be great for your coworkers. It would be great for yourself. You'd be great for your families.
Tim: [00:40:44] Wow. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Cheyanne: [00:40:46] Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for inviting me. Hopefully… so I, hopefully I didn't go totally off script, but that's what happens when you invite me. I have my own way.
Tim: [00:40:56] This was meant to be a little bit more flexible and just an off the cuff conversation. So I think it really turned out great. And I really appreciate your time as anybody, and I look forward to the next episode. We've got lots of good ones coming up in the future.
Cheyanne: [00:41:11] Awesome. Thanks so much.
Cheyanne: [00:01:04] Yeah. So I… So hi everyone. So I do listen to your podcast. I mean, this has been something that you've talked about for a long time, and there's been various iterations of something like this in the past. And I actually was looking back and it was more than ten years ago that you and I first started making videos together. And so they were, we did them on the law firm Facebook page, and we used to talk about, I was like the non-lawyer who would ask the question and all those pieces. And so this feels reminiscent of those days. Yeah. So thanks for having me, having me on. And we, yeah, we certainly had to narrow down kind of what we were going to talk about. And I'm really excited, given the point in time that you're at with this podcast and a great announcement that you have to make today to be honoured as the guest and to do a look back with you.
Tim: [00:01:55] Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And so the announcement that you're making is I do have some sponsorship funding through the Canadian Bar Association New Brunswick branch and the Lawyers Assistance Program. And so just thank you so much to them for making this possible for another period of time. And it helps us get as much good content out there as possible. And so I thought this was going to be a fun episode. This is like, no holds barred, right? Like we're not gonna.
Cheyanne: [00:02:23] Yeah. No, this is like…
Tim: [00:02:25] No preparation. I don't know what your answers are. You don't know what my answers are.
Cheyanne: [00:02:28] Yeah. No. And they'll get to know us through this. But when we were talking about it, just knowing our two personality styles and both of us being very Type-A people, I was like, you make your top five and I'll make my top five because I don't want to have to agree with you.
Tim: [00:02:43] Right? And then we were talking about it earlier today and you started saying something and I was like, no, no, no, no, don't ruin this for me. I don't want to. So…
Cheyanne: [00:02:50] You don't want to know my tidbits.
Tim: [00:02:52] I guess the first question that I wanted to ask here is, how do you see this going? Do you want to do like, I'll do one and then you do one. Or do you want to read your full top five? And then we talk about it then my top five? I'm leaving it completely up to you.
Cheyanne: [00:03:06] Okay, well, I'd like to have choice. So I have a confession to make. I actually have a top seven.
Tim: [00:03:12] Uh oh.
Cheyanne: [00:03:13] So this is what I'm hoping, though. I'm rolling the dice that some of my top ones are going to also be your top ones. So I think we should go one for one, because then I was thinking I could cross some things off my list.
Tim: [00:03:26] I had. So just so you know, I had some honourable mentions here. So.
Cheyanne: [00:03:30] Oh, honourable mentions okay. Yep. That's good language. That's maybe the language I'll use if you don't capture my highlights. So yes, and I will say that I have listened to all the podcasts, and I'm surprised that you're surprised that I listened to them.
Tim: [00:03:45] Yeah. So the funny part of the story was that you had said like, well, I'm driving somewhere and I'm on the road for like 2 or 3 hours at a time. So basically when I'm bored I can listen to this and and it was endearing. You did say it kind of makes me hear my husband's voice, so that's nice.
Cheyanne: [00:04:03] Yes. I was driving from literally one end of New Brunswick to the other to attend a nursing related meeting, and it was hunting season is what kind of when the first time through, in and so for those of you who aren't from hunting areas, that's a big deal. And it was moose hunting season and I was driving through like the middle of nowhere. It was me and hunters. And to have your comforting voice along on the ride was really great. And just to hear you kind of living out your passion project was was really good. So yeah, I do, I do bulk listen, I don't get it every month, but.
Tim: [00:04:37] Well, I mean, that's how, by the way, not to go too far off topic here, but that's what I listen to a lot of podcasts, like when I'm in the car and I just, you know, I've, I've kept myself off the news now because I can't handle that. So I gotta find something to listen to. And I find at least I could be learning something or engaged in the conversation. So.
Cheyanne: [00:04:56] Yes. And we've learned that I can't listen to Dateline podcasts when I'm driving alone in rural areas.
Tim: [00:05:04] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:05:05] Because I get convinced something's going to happen to me. So this is, this was certainly more comforting.
Tim: [00:05:09] This is the safer one. So do you want me to start first?
Cheyanne: [00:05:13] Sure. You go first. We'll do one for one. That would be great.
Tim: [00:05:15] I'll just say that these, my top five list are in no particular order. I really.
Cheyanne: [00:05:24] Such a lawyer thing to say. Such a lawyer.
Tim: [00:05:26] Well that’s the thing, because I didn't, I don't want anybody to think that anyone is better or farther on my list. I just think they were ones. When I sat down, I let myself just. What were the first five things that came to my mind? And so I think that hopefully there's not a ton of overlap because I want to cover a lot of the episodes here, because I think there's a lot of really good stuff in there for people to listen to. So I'm going to start number five again. No particular order was Matt Hiltz and his incredible story as a lawyer in New Brunswick and having some traumatic incidents when he was a child and just how he's kind of grown in his authentic self, and talking about his mental health and also, you know, one of his favourite things was the book The Four Agreements. And so I actually just read that over the Christmas holidays. So I can thank Matt for that, you know, I…
Cheyanne: [00:06:22] You literally took it with us on our vacation. Like it went, got on an airplane and he read it. Yes.
Tim: [00:06:27] Yeah. I mean, what better time to try to reflect on over the Christmas break. And I think that that's it's a really good short read. Once you get through the first, the first little bit of it is a little out there. But once you kind of really get into it. So I think that's my number five. I just really appreciated the candor talking to somebody. You know, I was in first year law school when he was in third year law school. And that's what the whole point of this podcast. Right? It's to really open up and have conversations and it just felt so authentic. So, you know, that's my number five on the list.
Cheyanne: [00:07:04] Yeah. And I would just say that I found his processing and where he's at with that now, he was very gracious when he was thinking about interactions that he's had with other lawyers and thinking like, why? You know, really that lens of like, why is someone responding that way? And could that be, you know, related to a past trauma or kind of what's going on? And so, yeah, I just, I really appreciated his perspective.
Tim: [00:07:33] Yeah. It was a really good one. So, yeah, people check that one out because I really felt like I learned a lot from that.
Cheyanne: [00:07:42] Certainly. Yeah, definitely. So my kind of, and mine aren't in any order. I'm not going to number them. I'm just going to share them. So my kind of one to talk about was the gentleman who, and this is one of the earlier podcasts who talked about kind of that descent into alcoholism and then, descent into, like, using drugs and how he was doing that still while practicing. Right? And so just him talking about that and talking about the pressures and like, choosing that as a coping mechanism. And then in terms of like it was just very interesting for me, like the frameworks he had built for himself at first to kind of try to keep it on the rails like, well, I only drink when I get home and I have like four rum and Cokes and two bottles of wine. But like, he, and it was just very interesting and how it just really got out of control. And I thought there was a lot of power in that story. And, you know, he just told the story of, you know, ultimately entering like a treatment facility. And he talked about his wife being supportive of him. And so that that just really was like an eye-opener for me. Like just in hearing his story and thinking he could be really anyone. And we do know statistically, your profession is more prone to alcoholism and addictions than perhaps some others. So, yeah, that was just very, a very honest story. And I really appreciated him sharing that and then sharing it from the perspective of being on the other side. And some of the strategies he uses to kind of manage his stress.
Tim: [00:09:25] Yeah. So that's Jason Ward.
Cheyanne: [00:09:27] Yeah.
Tim: [00:09:30] From Ontario. And what was what? You probably don't know what the viewers and listeners wouldn't know is that that interview, he was actually in his car on the side of the road on the 401 because he got stuck in traffic and said, is this okay that we do it this way? Yeah. Like, go right ahead.
Cheyanne: [00:09:47] Oh. That’s awesome.
Tim: [00:09:48] Background on there or whatever. And it was just yeah, really open conversation and, you know, every day. So Cheyanne is kind of our office manager, part time office manager, and, you know, being married to somebody in the profession. And I literally have a couple friends that have battled alcoholism and/or substance abuse. And there are people you might not think would go through that.
Cheyanne: [00:10:15] Yeah. Yeah
Tim: [00:10:16] And it's just, you know, to hear somebody honestly talk about that. And again, it gets into the discussion of it. Right? Like when we're talking about these things we're working towards doing more.
Cheyanne: [00:10:30] Yeah. Yeah I think that's important. And I should just share for everyone because they don't know us contextually. So I am a part-time office manager of the law firm, and I actually rent office space from the firm adjacent to it and run my own business out of there. And so I'm very much in and out of both spaces. And so that's, I think we're six years later into it and we still haven't gotten sick of each other, so that's really exciting. Although when we come to work, generally we're doing different things, like we're going in different directions and meet for lunch and, and such. So yeah, I do feel like I maybe get a bit more of a taste of your work life. It certainly opened my eyes because when we first, when you first were practicing, I worked in a completely different setting. And so really, the, you know, you're getting home, you're got kids, someone's picked up kids from the daycare or making supper, unless it's kids eat free at Pizza Delight and then we're going there. But I don't think that I had a real glimpse into your world. And so this has given me a bit more of a bird's eye view. So.
Tim: [00:11:39] So, okay, so next, next one on mine. I've got numbers on this. So again, no, no particular order. My number four was Dylan Gibbs. A recent interview and just discussing how he meant met this Sam Parr, who is a podcaster, business owner, community builder, and he met him at a conference, was thinking about changing from this newsletter business to In-Laws, which is now a community of lawyers that he has built. And he was kind of saying to this guy, and you can look, there's a LinkedIn post I'll share with this. And he was kind of saying, like, you know, do you really think like that, that lawyers would want this and they're so busy and whatever? And this gentleman had said to him like that is kind of self-defeating language, right? Like you need to test it out. You need to go talk to these people and find out. And then, you know, once you get outside of your own comfort zone with that, he found out that a lot of people really wanted that. The community aspect is something that has been missing in the practice, and I can certainly attest to that, especially post-COVID, things have really changed. And we don't, you know, have the same community. So that just, I don't know, my hair, the hair in the back of my neck stood up on that. I was just like, wow. Like, that's amazing. Right place, right time. And I actually started thanks to Dylan. I started listening to that podcast now and there's some great ideas, and so I've added that one onto my list. So more learning that's going on with me. And, you know, the one of the podcasts is called My First Million. And it's pretty amazing to listen to some of these business people talking about everything under the sun. It's pretty no holds barred discussions. But then there's a lot of neat little anecdotes in there that I've taken away from that.
Cheyanne: [00:13:37] Yeah. Okay. So my next point, and you're going to laugh when I say this, is just the whole concept when I look at everyone's story who's shared and they've been so kind and generous to share, it is the word pivot.
Tim: [00:13:59] Okay, pivot.
Cheyanne: [00:13:59] And so pivot. It’s like getting back to.
Tim: [00:14:04] The best episode of…
Cheyanne: [00:14:05] The best episode of friends ever, everybody should know pivot. But in everyone's story, and they're all different, like in different places in their journey. They had a moment. Some it was lows, but other people had moments where they made a pivot. And so what I thought and what I felt and what I heard in that story, and again, I come at this as a registered nurse, you know, from a different perspective is how powerful in that story that there was something that wasn't going ultimately the way they wanted it to go, and they were brave enough to make that pivot. And so I just wanted to like, honour and acknowledge that in everyone's story. And they pivoted different ways. Right?
Tim: [00:14:47] Right. Every single one of them is a different story.
Cheyanne: [00:14:50] It's different. And it's… And so I just felt, you know, thinking about the potential viewers and people listening to that, just knowing that you do have control over your life. You can make a pivot. I hope you have a supportive spouse and family, like, around you to help you with that. But sometimes I find we can just get so narrowly focused in like, this is my world, and I work at this law firm and I want to make partner. And my whole world is this law firm, right? And just really kind of, I think from a mental health perspective, knowing that, you know, sometimes it's, it can be a bit of a break. It can be a lookup, it can be, you know, making a plan to sustain, you know, better health in that time. Or maybe it's a total, a big pivot. So yeah, that's my second one that I'm not numbering. But it's my second point to share.
Tim: [00:15:48] I'll leave it. I'll try not to cringe too much at this. So my next one, my numbering, my number three one is Lindsay Mesa, who was a law student around the same time when I was in law school. And her story talking about losing her father, who was a judge. And that connects with me because I lost my father when I was 25, very young. And I think that, you know, just resonates with me as, as you say, a pivot point in your life, because those big life events are kind of the things that force us to really look at what's important, what we're willing to put up with. And really what resonated with me with that, and something that I really want to see change in the profession is, you know, her story about the way she felt she was treated sometimes after she came back, right? Like people knowing full well you had just come back from this, you're still grieving. And then people are saying like, where's this? Why didn't you get this done? Or how? You know what I mean? Like, there's a place for compassion in the profession. And I think that that's the one time, or one of the more important times when you've got to give somebody a little bit more leniency. And that, that really just kind of resonated with me, especially because of my own personal experiences. But I'm sure many people would have similar experiences, whether it's a loss of a job or whatnot.
Cheyanne: [00:17:19] Yeah. Okay. So my next one, and so I'm relying on you to fill in the names of these folks because my, my… this is so me. My notes are all about like, feelings, right? And reflections and all those different things. And I love that you're coming in with numbers and like the exact pieces, but the idea first came to me when I was listening to the lady who runs the, like, outsourcing legal work.
Tim: [00:17:47] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:17:47] Business.
Tim: [00:17:48] Right.
Cheyanne: [00:17:49] And so that's, she used a word like it's a release valve. And so in turn…
Tim: [00:17:59] I'm pretty sure it was me.
Cheyanne: [00:18:01] I was pretty sure. You have, like, a photographic memory who, like, remembers all these things. So that's.
Tim: [00:18:08] Why.
Cheyanne: [00:18:08] Play that tape.
Tim: [00:18:09] Back and find where it was.
Cheyanne: [00:18:10] Yeah. You do. You say that you're like. You just rewind it back. Well, in that discussion, I remember thinking. So she was talking about the benefits of being able to outsource some parts of it, of your legal practice. Right? And kind of what letter to make that decision and to start that business. And really she only wanted enough to kind of keep herself busy, you know, in a mat leave situation. And then it's grown to this large business. But through that discussion, they talked about, you know, not only is it the benefit for her and for the other subcontractors, but also for the law firm. And so she… those law firms. So she gave an example of someone being said, you know, thanks to your services, I was able to take my first vacation in so long. Or thanks to doing this, I was able to go to my kid’s Christmas concert. And so somewhere in that discussion.
Tim: [00:19:01] In our profession, right?
Cheyanne: [00:19:02] Yeah. And I just thought, yeah, release valve like, that's, you need to have like, your job is such a pressure cooker that you need to have some release valves. Right? And so prior to that, I was really thinking only about, you know, having a self care plan, you know, doing your favourite hobbies. Sometimes I will literally tell you to go play music or I will, like, send the dog in to you just, you know, knowing that those are things that are good for you. But I just thought, yeah, you do need all levels of release valves, all levels of like ways. So, you know, your hobbies and the things that you love, but also at work. Are there some things that can be outsourced? Can you set some priorities? And then those little things throughout the day, you know. And so, everyone has their own rhythm and routine. But one of the rhythms and routines of our law firm is that one of our dogs comes to work on Fridays, and that's a highlight. Everybody knows Chester. We do have two dogs. The other dog is not well behaved enough to come to work. No, not at all. So that's, you know, that's kind of a, I think of that as like a little bit of a release valve. Like, it's just a little change. It's something, you know, that you enjoy or it just… I think building those things into your practice are really important.
Tim: [00:20:28] Yeah. So that was Erin Cowling of Flex Legal. And I can attest to that. I've used them many times. And yeah, I mean, it's been amazing when you need a lot of work done quickly. You might not have all of the resources, or you don't want to take up your resources to do certain things. It's, it is a great release valve, right? Like and it gets done. And I've had nothing but great feedback from clients. I mean, they don't care as long as the work gets done, right? And that's the key part of it that helps because it is… I don't know if I would have ever fully appreciated before starting practice how busy it can get, right? Like how if you let it, it'll run your life, right? Like, you'll be 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Always thinking about stuff. You're never, I never leave work thinking like, oh, there you go. I got it all done today. There's always going to be more.
Cheyanne: [00:21:31] Yeah. And it really, like, if I think back, like even to I mean law school was very busy. Articling was very busy. Starting practice was busy. I think I've stopped waiting for it to settle down. Like, it's just not going to. Just no, no. And that's okay. You know, you just need to recalibrate and readjust. But it is very demanding. Yeah.
Tim: [00:21:57] No, I think that's a good one. So, and I actually, we should say that we were talking to a friend today and we were talking about that interview with Erin. And one of the things that really resonated with the person that we were talking to was the discussion kind of about, you know, if I could just get hit by this car, like, not enough to injure me seriously, but enough that I would like. And the person said to us like, no, that's actually like a legitimate feeling, like it might be
Cheyanne: [00:22:24] Like very relatable.
Tim: [00:22:26] We don't want to talk about all the time, but we've all kind of had some sort of feeling similar to that. And so I think that's really where this podcast gets gets into it. Right? It's not, we're not afraid to talk about those things that are probably a little bit uncomfortable, but they, I hope that those uncomfortable conversations continue to make a difference and more people will see that and hear those stories and then start talking to other people, right? Because the worst thing you can do is feel shamed and then just not talk.
Cheyanne: [00:22:53] Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a dark hole. Right? Like when you really isolate yourself and you're not talking and sharing with others. Like that's really in the gentleman who unfortunately lived with kind of addiction. Like in his story, I could see that he just, it was just his way of coping and his way in his world. Right? Do you know what I mean? Like. Yeah.
Tim: [00:23:18] Right. So which. Where? That was mine. Right? Or did you just do one I can't remember.
Cheyanne: [00:23:23] Gosh, let me check off my list. What did I just check off?
Tim: [00:23:27] If you'd have numbered…
Cheyanne: [00:23:30] But remember, I have seven, okay? Not five, because I don't do honourable mentions. The last thing I checked off was release valve.
Tim: [00:23:39] Okay. Okay, so that was yours, I think.
Cheyanne: [00:23:41] Okay.
Tim: [00:23:42] So I'm going to go on to my number two. It was actually the first episode with Manisha, but she goes by Esha Gupta, talking about getting outside more five sights and five sounds.
Cheyanne: [00:23:56] Yeah.
Tim: [00:23:57] Tips just. Yeah. And I always ask everybody at the end of every interview, like, if there's one and I'm going to ask you that Cheyanne so I'm going to put you on the spot later. So it gives you time to think about this. That one really resonated with me. If there was, one thing you could change is that people get outside more, five sights, five sounds. Look for things around you or things that you hear with your senses. And really what, what that does is gets you out of your own head. Right? Like we're constantly in our own heads, doing work, thinking deeply about something. And you've got to take that time to do that. And so that was one that I've, that I listened to and I was like, okay, I'm going to really try to implement that. I'm going to really… I'm not sure I'm fully successfully done it yet, but I'm working on it. Like, you know, something that I think about.
Cheyanne: [00:24:46] Mhm. That's good. My next one in no particular order was just some comments. And again it was threaded throughout. I'm not directly quoting one person, but talking about the next generation of lawyers and talking about the next generation of lawyers, maybe not tolerating this previous culture and workplace. And, I just found that really interesting. It was a little bit of a thread through a couple of them. But I just, you know, that transcends into other professions as well. I'm a nurse. And so we're seeing that with our new grad nurses as well. And we certainly have heard about it. We have articling students in the law firm. And so they talk about that. And so I do think that that is maybe one of the draws for people to come to our law firm, because we do really value people. We value... So I'm again going to use nursing language, but we use a person-centered approach in our office. So really honouring who you are as a person and what's important to you, which is basically what happens when a nurse ends up in a law firm. She's going to bring all that perspective in there and thinking about what's important to you and what's important to you, and how do we all work together? And like and I think I started to normalize conversations around, like, wow, that was kind of stressful day, guys. Like, how are you feeling? Like, how does that make you feel? And so, and I think prior to, you know, the introduction of this role and me becoming involved, I don't know that those exact discussions were happening, you know, happening.
Cheyanne: [00:26:28] And so, we really in nursing, we value, like we do critical debriefing after incidents, like there's all these things that are happening in order to kind of help us cope in longevity. And so I just think… I, you know, I think of the next generation and I'm wanting them to have a sustainable career and kind of building more of those practices in like right from the beginning. And I think it's good. I think it's good that they have different expectations. You know, I think they really will kind of lead the change. And it's nice to see, you know, from my perspective, better gender representation and different things like that. And we, a couple of years ago, we went to an event. It was people who were inducted for 50 years of being at the bar. And it was like all men. Right? And then, but then when I look like kind of at the current years and different things, you see kind of more of that. And so I think there's a lot of changes generationally and with gender representation and other things that will hopefully help change that culture and hopefully there's not it's not too much of a rough road to get there.
Tim: [00:27:37] But yeah, I think we see it quite a bit. And you're right, that is a through line through multiple conversations that I've had with people about that. And I think that, yeah. No, totally, totally agree with you. And I'm somewhat hopeful for the future. I think we're making some good strides.
Cheyanne: [00:27:57] Mhm. Yeah, I think we are. And I think we have to. I mean, I know in healthcare again, not to relate it back to my world, but we need these registered nurses, these nurses that are graduating. We need them to settle into the workplace, for it to be a collegial environment and for them to be supported, because we want them to stay, you know, and I think it's the same in your field.
Tim: [00:28:19] Yeah. For sure. Okay. My turn?
Cheyanne: [00:28:22] Your turn.
Tim: [00:28:23] Okay. So my, I guess, again, this is number one on my list, but not necessarily number one is, mine was Jason Ward as well. And I think just the flow of our conversation and it really felt like we were just kind of, you know, shooting the stuff as, as one might say. And we really just got into it and just had a really nice conversation about his history and the alcohol and drug addictions. And, so overall, that was one of my favourites. We had a lot of laughter too, right? Like, yeah, there was a lot of like, you know, this doesn't always have to be serious. And that's kind of one of the reasons why you and I wanted to do an episode of this, just to have a little bit more fun with it. Create a list of some of the impactful moments of the first several episodes, and just take a minute to reflect back on those to think about, you know, what really made an impact?
Cheyanne: [00:29:26] Yeah, in my last one, I'm not numbering them, but my last one, or point to share is around consistently what everybody described. Everyone did a very, did it very well in their own way, of the pressures of the profession. So in terms of, you know, within the firm pressures with clients, meeting clients’ expectations, managing their expectations. You know, a few people talked about, you know, people aren't coming to us generally on their best day of their life. Right? It's generally because, you know, there's been a challenge in their life and they're coming to seek support. And so then a few people commented about, you know, interactions with other legal colleagues and the pressure of being in court. And so that just made me really reflect kind of on the role. And this is just my own personal reflection on being the spouse of a lawyer. And made me think about that. And so I think that there's been times, you know, kind of what I see is there might be days when you come home and you're a little bit quieter. Or, not often, but occasionally I'll be like, you're not in the courtroom.
Cheyanne: [00:30:40] Do you know what I mean? Like, literally, the kids and I are, like, peeling carrots for supper. Like, there's… nothing deeper is happening. Like, we're pretty basic. And then also, to kind of that lead up and ramp up to court. And I will freely admit that I was not the best lawyer spouse in the early days because as you ramped up to get ready for court and you, you know, would be preparing and the night before, you, like, shine your shoes and it's almost like, you know, preparing for battle a little bit. Right? And and so I was just like, well, what's going on? Like, you know, and so I don't think I really appreciated back then kind of really that it was like that, you know, there is like a lot of pressure that way. And so, you know, I just think that it just gave me more thoughtful reflection about that and about being a supportive, a supportive spouse or like the benefit of having that or just people around you who understand. I mean, they might not be directly in it, but…
Tim: [00:31:48] I think it's like any profession, you know, nurses have to deal with things that I could never deal with. You know, doctors, firefighters, police officers, anything that's like that kind of profession, there's always going to be things that, you know, you can't talk about, but they kind of stick with you, right? And we don't talk about it enough. But, you know, there's probably everybody who practices day to day depending on the area has some form of trauma that they carry with them. And I feel lucky enough that it, most stuff doesn't bother me. You know, but there are a few for sure. And when it does, you know, I.... And I don't always notice it, which is kind of interesting. Like, I don't really think about it, but it might be more outwardly visible to like someone around me before I even think like, oh, like that, I am carrying that around a little bit. Like, that was, that was a tough one. Right. And…
Cheyanne: [00:32:49] Yeah. Yeah, it certainly can be. Very rewarding, though, you know, it is a very rewarding profession. And to be able to help people, and to do that part and to bring that expertise, right? That they don't have and to see them through a situation.
Tim: [00:33:07] Yeah. That's kind of what keeps me going on. The days when it gets really hard is the ones that I'm like, okay, we finally got that one across the finish line. Like it wasn't pretty. You know, there were some really difficult decisions that needed to be made. And you know that that's my greatest honour is seeing people achieve whatever goal it is that they're looking to achieve and kind of watch that weight come off them when they get out on the other end of it.
Cheyanne: [00:33:36] Yeah, yeah, that is nice.
Tim: [00:33:38] Okay, so you’ve got two more. So I want to, I want to hear those because I've got some honourable mentions that I think.
Cheyanne: [00:33:44] Oh so you actually said my two more. So I'll just highlight them quickly. So I had Matt Hiltz and his whole piece. So that was one of mine as well. Whatever my extras were, you had you covered them.
Tim: [00:33:58] So let's go to what was your… you can, you can out this. What was your biggest criticism of the first several episodes. You had, you had one big one that I thought was insightful.
Cheyanne: [00:34:12] Oh, you want me to share my criticisms?
Tim: [00:34:14] Just the one.
Cheyanne: [00:34:16] Just. Okay. Just one. Well, and I don't know that I'm going to share the I don't know that I'm going to share the right one. Well, one thing that I just shared along the way, you know, as you were doing this and again, coming from my own perspective is just ensuring that we're capturing everybody's voice. So not just the voice of the people who've made such a pivot that they're out of active practice. And I respect that for some people, that is what they've done. And that's great. I just, you know, as you were going through your list and, and working through, I was like, let's make sure that there's still people who are there who are still in the active practice, giving them a lifeline, too. Right? And that's really where you are, you know, and so that was my, you know, hope, maybe not critique, but just that. And that's certainly I've seen that like, I've seen that come through and starting to see that line come through and, and I can't wait to see what the next eight podcasts bring. I know they'll be kind of more of that voice.
Tim: [00:35:21] I think, you know, in the future, I want to make sure we diversify a little bit more like, I'd love to get one on neurodivergence in the legal profession. I think that's a really important topic. And so, you know, I'm excited about, I'm glad that you're along the ride, along for the ride with me on this one when I say, hey, I want to do this crazy idea. Okay. Let's go. Yeah, go ahead and do it. I'm like, yeah, yeah.
Cheyanne: [00:35:48] Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you have to like, support, you know, a passion project. And I'm just very I would like to say thank you to the Canadian Bar Association for their sponsorship, because it's no longer personally funded by the Culberts. So thank you, too. But, you know, I think it's really important. This is really important work. And, I'm just proud of you for, you know, for doing your part and starting these conversations. So.
Tim: [00:36:20] Yeah, thank you very much. And I would let people know that I'm going to put a note at the end of this with the Lawyer's Assistance program number. On that, I am also on that committee, full disclosure on that. And, you know, the Homewood Health counseling that you can get, it's pretty good, pretty efficient, timely. And it can really help out in certain circumstances. So people aren't alone with that. Right? Like, it's tough. You don't really know who to turn to in those circumstances. And when you have those resources that are available and it's free, right? Like if you're a member of the Law Society, I don't know the exact specifics of it, but it's there for you throughout your career. And I think that that's something that people should, should use early on rather than let things get too far down the road.
Cheyanne: [00:37:12] Definitely, definitely. And it's so, it's so valuable. Again, this is, I'm just speaking from my own expertise, and I was previously a manager, so I managed many nurses. You know, you can ask for an evening appointment. You can ask for it to be virtual. You can ask for it to not be somebody from your community. Statistics that get reported back are just general usage numbers. So it's not like Tim Culbert from Woodstock, New Brunswick called because his wife is driving him crazy. No, it's like it's like, you know, never, never, ever. It's just more like general statistics. So, you know, of the thousand lawyers, you know, 52 used it this year or something like that. And so it's, I just want to, you know, reassure people that that that is available and don't be scared to put some parameters around it that make you feel comfortable to use it.
Tim: [00:38:08] Mhm. So now the big question here is if you, as a lawyer's wife, if there was one thing that you could change about the legal profession regarding mental health, what would it be?
Cheyanne: [00:38:20] I kind of have two little thoughts.
Tim: [00:38:21] Okay.
Cheyanne: [00:38:22] So the first is, it's such a rigid system. And I understand why it's rigid and I understand, you know upholding those things. But there doesn't always seem time to be human.
Tim: [00:38:40] Yeah.
Cheyanne: [00:38:41] And so, that example I would give is unfortunately when my mother passed away a number of years ago, obviously not planned, you know, she had been living with a chronic illness, ALS, for years, and then she ended up dying a little bit unexpectedly, like it happened quite quickly. And you had a trial booked. And so, just knowing that, like, you were going to have to then like, plead the case to have that moved and all those things and fortunately it did work out. But I just, you know, just wish that process was a bit more human in that way.
Tim: [00:39:16] I definitely and I think that that's… it's hard when you're in a system that's the rules are in place to be fair. Right?
Cheyanne: [00:39:25] Yeah.
Tim: [00:39:25] Yeah. That everybody has a fair shake at that. But then there are times when you have to know that, you know, even though it might not be exactly what something says, you've got to be human. And there's a fairness to it.
Cheyanne: [00:39:39] That, so that's kind of like a wish that I had. Although I do think in that, that we need to have timely access to justice for the clients too. Right? And so then that's not creating a huge other delay.
Tim: [00:39:49] You're preaching to the choir on that one.
Cheyanne: [00:39:51] Yeah. And then my second second thought or second wish would be just around more conversations like this. More conversations where we normalize talking about the stressors of work. And so, and do that, I think that would be great. We’re starting to see it more in other professions. And I would love to see you guys step up and really lead the way in that. You've led the way in a lot of things, you know? So this would be… I know you all have it in you to do that. I would say there might be a little bit of, for some, some ego that they need to let go to kind of get past some of those things. But I think that that would be really great for everyone. It would be great for your clients. It would be great for your coworkers. It would be great for yourself. You'd be great for your families.
Tim: [00:40:44] Wow. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Cheyanne: [00:40:46] Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for inviting me. Hopefully… so I, hopefully I didn't go totally off script, but that's what happens when you invite me. I have my own way.
Tim: [00:40:56] This was meant to be a little bit more flexible and just an off the cuff conversation. So I think it really turned out great. And I really appreciate your time as anybody, and I look forward to the next episode. We've got lots of good ones coming up in the future.
Cheyanne: [00:41:11] Awesome. Thanks so much.
