How Quickly Can VO2 max Increase in Cyclists? with Tim Cusick (#285)

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From the team at CTS, this is the Time Crunch Cyclist Podcast, our show dedicated to answering your training questions and providing actionable advice to help you improve your performance, even if you're strapped for time.
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I'm your host, Coach Adam Polford, and I'm one of the over 50 professional coaches who make up the team at CTS.
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In each episode, I draw on our team's collective knowledge, other coaches, and experts in the field to provide you with the practical ways to get the most out of your training and ultimately become the best cyclist that you can be.
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Now, on to our show.
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Today is part three in a series on the time course of adaptation to endurance training.
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And back with me is Coach Tim Cusick.
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Tim, welcome back to the show.
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Uh I'll say it again.
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Thanks for having me again.
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Absolutely.
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It is my pleasure.
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I always learn uh so much when I'm talking to you, Tim, whether it is uh here on a podcast or some random location in Boulder, Colorado, or uh streaming everything that you've done on YouTube.
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So uh thank you for taking a ton of time out of your day-to-day to uh make all these all these episodes.
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Thanks for having me.
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Appreciate it.
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So last week we talked uh about how quickly someone could start responding to FTP training, emphasizing the aerobic, the glycolytic energy system, which is the most trainable energy system, by the way, in your body.
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And we can spend a lot of time training there.
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However, we need to change the training stimulus to keep improving overall and keep moving the ship forward.
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And we use higher intensities to do that, but we need concurrent aerobic training to uh also supplement that.
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So today's topic is VO2 max training, and we're gonna talk about the adaptations associated with that.
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But Tim, one complicated thing that I hope you can make simple is if I were to ask you how is lactate threshold and VO2 max both similar and different at the same time, how how would you uh tell our audience or how would you tell a young coach what is kind of the difference in the similarities between these two conceptually?
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Okay, wow, that's a complex question.
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So let's simplify, let's start with we're talking about VO2max.
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VO2max has been utilized as the name of a training zone in this, you know, in multiple different zone systems for a long time.
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And that confuses people to some degree.
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So let's pull back from that.
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VO2max is a physiological state.
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So the word max is very important there because that's the maximal rate of which you can intake, uptake, and utilize oxygen, right?
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So it's a as a couple of uh points to that.
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There's a couple of things going on, but how much oxygen and how efficiently, you know, how much can I get into the system and how much can I utilize?
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But the output is important there.
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There's actually P VO2 max, it's power.
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So when we think about the concept for endurance athletes, for cyclists in specific, what VO2max is a physiological state.
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What we're really focused on is putting how much power we can put out when we are in that state.
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So that concept of VO2 max needs to be established.
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So now we talk about FTP, and that's why I have to translate it to a concept of power, because FTP is a functional threshold power.
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You use the term lactate threshold too, which is more physiologically descriptive.
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They are both similar and related, so but a world apart.
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That's why it's complicated.
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When we begin to, when we hit LT2, when we hit uh lactate threshold too, we are producing more byproduct for the extra for this the intensity we're going than our body can comfortably deal with.
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So, what's the real impact of that?
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The onset of rapid fatigue, meaning powers above FTP, we can only hold for a very short time.
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Powers below, we can hold for a much longer, more significant time.
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And that's because at FTP and above, or at LT2 and above, not only are we dealing with all this byproduct, we are shifting most of the load, most of the energy requirements to being anaerobic.
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Um we're producing uh most of the energy, almost all of the energy, depends on how intense you go, but all of the energy uh through the utilization of carbs, we're anaerobic in nature.
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A lot of that energy is being produced in the absence of oxygen.
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And that, you know, so we have a limited amount of time that we can sustain that.
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Um that transition actually starts happening below FTP, just not to confuse everybody, more around 80 to 85 percent of FTP, but it's it's purely dominant at FTP and above.
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So the physiological relationship looks like this.
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In the last episode, I defined FTP as a simple metabolic indicator.
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It's a metabolic fitness.
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It gives us an understanding of that energy system and how we deal with byproducts.
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Our VO2 max is probably the very greatest indicator of our cardiovascular fitness.
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Um, those two relate because, in the end of the day, your VO2 max, your cardiovascular capability, maybe not fitness as the right word, but your cardiovascular fitness is always gonna limit your metabolic fitness.
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VO2 max is always the cap to your LT2.
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That's known as fractional utilization.
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There's only so much of that oxygen coming, there's only so much output we're gonna be able to produce in that short amount of time.
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And that's about 85%.
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There's range, there's variation, it's trainable, you can improve that, but your fractional utilization, what I'm describing, is around 85 to 90%, depends on the athlete in training.
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But you'll never succeed that.
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Like, so the relationship to those two, here's a simple way to explain what I just said.
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Imagine you have a house with a ceiling and a roof.
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You start training aerobic, you start doing some, all your base one, base two training, you're doing a lot of aerobic work, your threshold is growing, you're getting taller in that house.
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So your fitness is growing, your metabolic capability is going, your FTP is going up, but there suddenly becomes a point where you're now bumping up against the ceiling.
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You cannot grow anymore in that house because that cardiovascular ceiling, that VO2-max ceiling, is limiting growth.
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And at that point, and here's why the relationship is so important, you have to invest in actually raising the ceiling before FTP will grow again.
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You have to create more room to grow.
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So the two are very relative in performing athletes because it's the give and take, the exchange, so to speak, as we begin to get more fit, deeper in our periodized plan, closer to performance phases.
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We have to make that investment in those two elements because they're two totally unique things, but they limit, well, they relate, work together, but yet one acts as a limiter of the other.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I think when I'm trying to communicate this to my athletes is I say, you know, VO2 max, max is max, and that that will be uh the the power or the oxygen that's coming into the system at maximum.
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FTP is the highest rate that we can work relative to VO2 max, and we're gonna try to get that up into that 85-90% because the higher I can go steady at max, the better in general for endurance athletes.
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However, that then you have like specificity and and and some of these other aspects that um come into when we want more anaerobic or or more aerobic and things like this, but that's that percentage of FTP to VO2 max that Tim is talking about there.
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And and so for uh to you, Tim, do you see even elite athletes kind of sticking to that 85 to 90 percent?
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Can they go a little bit above?
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And for a time-crunched athlete, should they be shooting for a conceptual 85 to 90 percent of FTP to VO2 relationship?
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Yeah, I mean, there's always outliers.
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So you can they can.
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Um, and it takes if you were to be a professional athlete constantly testing this, there's a lot of testing and there's some margin of error and all that.
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You really want to know if you're in that ballpark.
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Also, whether you could be 85 or 90, your muscle fiber type itself will have an impact on where exactly that target might be.
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Come, you know, another complexity there.
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I think for the time-crunched athlete, it's probably more important to listen to the second thing I said.
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You have a house, you grow in your house.
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You have to learn to feel when you're bumping against the ceiling.
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Like, and your coach does too, because you probably have most time-crunched athletes will be more close to 90 at all given times.
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Because your your VO2 max is trainable and it's more impacted within a time-crunched athlete, um, you know, in that sense.
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So your your metabolic fitness, you know, you're training all the time, you're pretty good.
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You're actually overreaching in that sense, in one way.
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Um man, it's complex.
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I never thought about it as hard for the time crunch, because what's happening, you're probably doing more work at higher intensities as a time crunched athlete, and that's absolutely the right answer within the right controls.
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So you tend to um have uh you know a different or slightly different relationship in that development that's inverse than what you would expect.
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You probably have um a re reduced power at VO2 max for that intensity and a higher power at lactate threshold too or FTP in your physiological relationship.
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Why?
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Fatigue is multifaceted, and this is where it gets really complex.
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There's other things in there that are the limiters.
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There's things that's happening that if you're not a higher volume training, that's limiting your ability to produce power at VO2 max.
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Fatigue is very multifaceted, it's biochemical in nature.
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So you're not testing well.
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So, long story short, you're probably closer to that 90, and that's a good thing.
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But the time-crunched athlete needs to be cognitive of stagnation plateaus, lack of developmental growth in the FTP focused training, and know when it's like, wow, I need to raise the ceiling.
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Okay.
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I I do agree with that, and I would say for my time-crunched athletes, I I lean into developing and increasing FTP more than VO2 Max, is because I know that I'm limited on that in the way of volume.
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100% right answer.
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And that's why I hesitated and answered.
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I should have thought this question out more because it's easy to fall victim to too much high-intensity training load, which will actually make that uh equation look better, more like 85%, but will have less impact on your performance.
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And this is where you have to be careful when we're always talking about physiological response.
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Science doesn't have all the answers to performance, right?
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So the science of that might say, do this.
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Your wisdom mastery, right?
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You know better.
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You've been around a long time and it's 100% spot on.
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And for anybody listening, it's 100% spot on.
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You want to pay that price of the 90-ish percent if you were measuring it that exact.
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You want the threshold driver in there with occasional bouts of ceiling raising, will give you a better overall response.
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Yeah.
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So for the time crunch athlete, just know if you were to double down on one versus the other, I'd go FTP every time.
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Every time for time crunch athlete.
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Absolutely.
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Because it's the crossover of it's the it's the linchpin of all the different kinds of processes.
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Your best the metabolic fitness side of that equation is absolutely worth pursuing.
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Yep.
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Yep.
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And I and I want to point out that as FTP grows, so does VO2 Max because they're aerobically correlated.
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But now as listeners are listening here, is maybe getting a little confused, or how do I raise my ceiling, Tim?
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What would you say for for both let you you can answer for high volume athlete as well as time-crunched athlete, but what would be one technique to raise that ceiling?
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And then maybe we can like back into the time crunchiness of it and then talk about the adaptations once we do start to hit some zone five.
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All right, this is much simpler to explain.
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So good.
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I would go universal answer, go back to episode one.
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First off, the single biggest way most of us can raise FTP is ride your bike a lot.
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Like do a lot of aerobic training.
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VO2 Max, in a large way, and the greatest contribution is you're really raising it.
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You're remember what I said in episode one, we tend to think about aerobic and anaerobic as side-by-side elements of energy.
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I start out aerobic and I start moving to the right as power goes up, and eventually I go anaerobic.
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Turn that out inside, it's stacked.
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So the better aerobic fitness, the better we lift all boats.
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Like, and that's what's happening.
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So investing in your aerobic fitness in early foundational, early base training, particularly is challenging for a uh a time-crunched athlete because it almost feels like I'm wasting time.
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Like, ah, but I got I only have six, eight hours this week.
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I need more intensity.
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Be patient, right?
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You've you're you are building, you're just pushing it slowly up from below.
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It'll work.
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Then what I find in um, then you need a secondary phase.
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But that's secondary phase, the timing is tricky.
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So I'll give the easy answer.
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When you're you're banging against the ceiling, when your head's hitting the ceiling is when a but the secondary phase comes in a more intensive manner.
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And there's where, and because we've used the aerobic time we've had to raise the roof as high as possible and grow within the room.
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But the growth within the room has outpaced the ceiling growth.
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So now when we get there, we need an intensity-based approach specifically to suddenly raise the ceiling, to punch hard at it, so to speak, so that impact comes quick, so you can keep growing in your little fitness house.
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So that secondary phase is where we see a more classic approach of VO2 max intervals, four by four, uh, all of the things that will fit into that realm.
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Yeah, yeah, that's it.
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And I and I think too, how do you know when it's time to raise the ceiling?
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I think it is both um you can feel it, but it's also timing based on good periodization and training.
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Like if you map it out, like we're talking about from foundation base one, base two, and then threshold training, and then now VO2 max training, it's a matter of weeks, right?
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Weeks spent training.
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So we're talking about three or I didn't do the math, but probably like three or four months deep into a cycle, maybe four or five months into a cycle where we hit some zone five uh intensity, that would be roughly that time period where uh you you know it's time.
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And and the other reason why I say it's timing related is because let's say you've masterfully uh built out this six-month build, or you hired Tim and he did it for you, you've got an event coming that will have high intensity to it.
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No matter what happened behind you, you're gonna have to hit some high intensity so that you're well prepared enough for this event.
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So I still think it's from a timing standpoint is when you know it's time to hit zone five and above.
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Yeah, you know, and I get this question all the time, and I know you do what I'm about to say.
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So I bet you this will resonate really well.
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So people ask me all the time, like, when do you know it's time to move on?
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By the time you're getting into those intensities, it's usually something simple because of the way you planned it.
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Oh, my event's in 10, 12 weeks, right?
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When you wrote that athlete's plan, you did it working backwards.
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You had a key event, they had a big priority, you worked your plan backwards.
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Yes, if we've done everything really well physiologically, we're probably close to that ceiling.
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And it's but at that given point in the training, it's simply time.
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I need this to perform well, therefore I need to do it.
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And hopefully you've gotten the best from the other phases at that point.
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The thing is, what happens when that arrives early?
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You know, do you keep kind of pushing at it?
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Do you move on?
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Even in diminished returns, you're still getting some return.
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So sometimes you're juggling that transition into that higher intensity push for event prep where you're stalling for a week or two, you're maintaining.
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But that might be sometimes the best ideas.
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Why?
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Time to adaptation.
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When you light the fuse in higher intensity work, which is we could call VO2 max and anaerobic capacity work, that's a hot burning fuse, and you only have so much time that's going to push that peak.
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You want to have that time dwell.
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Yes.
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Yep, exactly.
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So timing is is really important on that.
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And additionally, like what just comes in my head, I had a really good friend uh send me a text message.
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I don't coach him, I ride with him, uh, super good dude.
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And he's like, when you're raising VO2 Max, do you push it or pull it?
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And and I was like, mm-hmm.
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And so if I can just define push meaning aerobic, pull meaning zone five and above.
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Which which is it, Tim?
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What's your answer to that?
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Don't be a reductionist.
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Exactly, exactly right.
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Both, right?
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It's both because each has their season.
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Those are two tools in your toolbox, which, in a sense of periodization timing, athlete need, you need to use them well within that schedule, like within that periodization program.
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Periodization is a process of putting things in you know good progressive order.
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Use the tools well.
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Yep.
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And one last thing before we get into uh the adaptations, once we start to hit the gas at zone five, what to expect?
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I I'll say this is like there needs to be concurrent aerobic training, meaning long rides, length in the long ride, deep in the long ride, to make VO2 max training work well, even for a time crunched athlete.
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And so as we're incorporating zone five and above intervals, I am still going to every week or 10 days or whatever kind of rolling time period, I'm going to have a long aerobic ride in there that not only maintains but hopefully and ideally builds aerobic capacity while we're doing high intensity training.
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So
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Would you agree with that, Tim?
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And with that said.
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Okay.
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Couldn't agree more.
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With that said, let's talk about the adaptation.
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So if we're doing all that right, it's time to hit zone five.
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In the first one to two weeks, what should an athlete expect to see once they start doing uh that intensity?
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First, I expect to see a little fatigue.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.680
Remember, two responses to exercise stimuli.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.200
We have acute response, seven to ten days of fatigue.
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.160
But at this stage in a periodized plan, usually a little more fit.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.920
So we're shortening that down a little.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.079
Fitness comes a little later.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:47.039
What we see physiologically respond, and it's important to say that here because when we get into these higher intensity workouts, um the evidence of adaptation tends to come faster.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.039
Like you'll see it very quick.
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.640
And as a matter of fact, if you do it well, it tends to front load.
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.160
When we think about, you know, we're doing VO2 max work.
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:59.039
What we're really measuring is power at VO2 max.
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:06.400
We often see our ability to produce higher and sustain and repeat powers at VO2 max.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.680
Most of your improvement you see pretty early.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:10.400
Why?
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.920
The first two weeks we're seeing change in heart stroke volume, plasma volume increase.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.359
Now, we talked about that earlier.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.200
In early phases, it's an ongoing response to exercise stimuli.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:32.079
VO2 max puts some of the VO2 max efforts, high-intensity efforts, zone five efforts, put a high strain on heart stroke volume.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.960
Our heart is doing everything it can to keep up.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.359
So, you know, stroke volume is a response.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.880
We produce more plasma.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.039
Our heart becomes more elastic, it becomes better at the pump itself.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:44.640
All that's working good.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.000
We see more enzyme activity at the mitochondrial level.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:50.480
We're developing that capacity better and better.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:56.480
Um that's actually leading to better buffering of the acidity factor.
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:04.720
You're spinning off those hydrogen atoms, you're now controlling that better, both from what we had said in the last episode, psychological, like we're dealing with it.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:10.559
We're we're dampening all the warning reactions our body's putting out and dealing with that better.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.200
And we're improving glycogen utilization.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:18.079
We're really beginning to see uh an efficiency in energy production.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:26.000
Um it's it's the key immediate driver that comes very quickly in these types of workouts.
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.519
It does come very quickly.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:29.839
And I'd say back to the control thing.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.960
If you haven't hit VO2 in a while, uh by the way, I'm gonna say VO2 power.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:45.920
I I've actually had some uh philosophical uh internet discussions with listeners and people them arguing that there's no such thing as VO2 power, and you know that, Adam.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:53.359
And I'm like, eh, kinda, but like also it's not VO2 Max, so we can't so we can either call it zone five or VO2 power.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.119
I'm gonna say VO2 power.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:55.759
I don't know.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:57.440
Any anything on for that, Tim?
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:02.640
I say max aerobic power to avoid arguments, but yes, it's a construct, right?
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.920
And that construct is very useful in understanding, quantifying, and thinking.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:19.200
So their physiological, the pure physiology is correct as you just stated it, but max aerobic power, power at VO2 max are constructs or concepts that help us understand this.
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:20.160
Yes, yes.
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:36.240
And along those lines, I mean, that that actual uh power that we're usually working with in zone five is 106 to 121 percent of FTP, and the perceived effort that we're working with is a nine going on 10 out of 10 hard effort.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.960
Okay, so that's the intensity that we're talking about here.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.319
Uh, I would say though, if you haven't hit this in a while, when you do, you lack control in the first uh workout.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.000
The second workout, you usually gain control pretty quickly.
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:51.759
Uh, you get on top of it.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:58.240
And I don't see as much as like, well, you you might gain some power right away.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:22.079
That usually I see that in like the two to four weeks is when I'm really like gaining power, uh, you know, an extra five to ten watts in that, but you just gain a lot of control and RPE comes down in that first one to two weeks, like pretty quickly, because it's like the earth shakes in the first workout or two, and then it like stabilizes, and then all of a sudden in two in weeks two to four, we start to grow power.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:23.519
Is that also what you see?
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:24.480
Absolutely.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:30.319
And where you'll see some of the biggest gains is two to five weeks.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:35.920
Like, and you'll see most of the gain for the entire phase in that window if you do it right.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:45.359
Um, because you've set the stage, all the things, and in what's driving those improvements in two to four weeks is basically the same things that were driving it in the first two weeks.
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:46.720
You're just getting better at it.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:48.319
Like, that's being improved upon.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.119
You're and and and that's a system efficiency.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.039
That's not quite the physiological term.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.599
It's a system economy, actually, also.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.200
But that's the sweet spot of gain.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:08.319
That's where suddenly, like, wow, my uh I'm putting out a couple extra watts and I can do that other interval and that other interval and be in control.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.000
That's the sweet spot of gain for higher intensity range.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.440
For me, my experience, that three to five, two to five weeks, it depends what they were doing before.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:33.279
It's after that that you have to be careful because the that rapid gain in that phase can lead to an early uh the need for an early exit, meaning you can stagnate there pretty quickly.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.000
And I actually see that as a reasonably constant mistake in the self-coached athlete.
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.559
Yeah, so essentially dragging out a VO2 phase too long.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:42.960
Absolutely.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.920
And you're just hammering in fatigue for no gain, which is always a bad idea.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:48.960
Yeah.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:58.640
And one tip I I throw out there is to like you can err on the side of caution with this, and instead of like a three-in-one, you could maybe use a two in one.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.680
So hit it hard for two weeks, take an easy week, and then hit another round of tweaks.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:13.759
And that to me, for a self-coached athlete, would be uh uh less risk, more gain sort of situation or sort of uh tactic.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:18.160
Yeah, you know, and it's cliche, but it's so important in this phase.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.960
This is a quality versus quantity phase.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.319
Now, what you really want is both, don't get me wrong.
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:30.000
Yeah, but don't pursue one at the loss of the other, meaning I want to deliver quality.
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:42.480
I need quality work in this phase, because the quality, you've moved from more of a general concept when we're in aerobic phases and moving through aerobics to now you're being more specific.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.079
The idea, remember, VO2 max is a physiological state.
00:26:46.240 --> 00:27:03.119
What we're talking about is a training zone, 105 to 120% of FTP, that targets the highest uh or that most impacts that VO2 max physiological state, like, and but the impact is in your cardiovascular system.
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.359
VO2 max is just a measurement of how capable that is.
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:19.039
So the work in that load is meant to improve its main driver, and it it improves your metabolics, it improves your neuromuscular, but its main driver is the cardiovascular push.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.519
That's you've already done a lot of work, you've done all your zone two, you've gone through your aerobic base.
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.119
This is a, and the way I like to explain it, this is a sharpening cycle.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.240
Aerobic is a building cycle.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:36.799
Uh intensive, what I call intensive aerobic tempo, your second phase.
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.160
That's a building cycle.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.799
FTP is still a building cycle.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.559
Now you're moving into sharpening.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:48.319
Now I am taking gained fitness and I'm expressing it into what I really want.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.720
Because what you really don't, power is nice to have.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:52.400
What you want is velocity.
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.119
You want to get, like, think about the definition of power.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.000
Everybody listening, right?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.319
This is a weird sidebar, but I'll break it together.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:01.440
Power is, you know, time over distance.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.319
Like how fast I can go from point A to point B.
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.039
That's we know what a watt is, but that's what power is.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.960
We have the ultimate way of measuring this, but so it unfortunately makes us think everything in power.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:14.640
What you really want is velocity.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:30.480
So sharpening phases aren't just driven at power, or they're not just they're targeting a specific physiological response, the improvement in cardiovascular capability to allow me to produce more speed.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:31.119
Yeah.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:34.079
Quality matters when you start thinking about that.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.480
Like that is what you're really going for.
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:38.079
Exactly.
00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:38.960
Exactly.
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:52.160
So when we're talking about interval workouts, uh, some zone five, uh, VO2 power, power at max, what kind of interval durations are you working with, Tim?
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.160
Uh, where would be like the shortest, where would be the longest interval that you would do?
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:57.119
It depends.
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.799
Um, yeah, the beauty of VO2, Max, you can keep this simple.
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.319
Another area where people love to make this overly complex.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.480
And there's some reason for it.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.319
For me, I like to just use a straight-up interval process.
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:17.119
There's plenty of reasons to use variable intervals or short intense intervals, like 40, 20, 30, 15s, things like that.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:18.559
And I'll use them at times.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:29.519
But when I'm in the phase where I want this specific development, I'm using a range from three-minute intervals, five, maybe six.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.839
Like I'll do four dimes eights and this and that, but I see those as a little different purposeful.
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:38.400
My when I want speed, when I want this system development, I'm in that range.
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.440
The way I target though, that is a little bit unique.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:43.680
Not and maybe it's right.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:45.039
I mean, I believe it's right.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:56.480
Um, if you're a highly aerobic athlete with a lesser sprint, let's just say, so you have a that your P max relationship to your threshold is not that high.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:04.480
So you have a lot of slow twitch muscle, um, that athlete will benefit from more shorter intervals.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:11.599
So if I'm doing a time trial, so I might be targeting three to three and a half, maybe four minutes, and I'll do more of those intervals.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:20.559
The reason being that athlete doesn't have a lot of anaerobic capacity, they burn off that anaerobic capacity very early in the interval because they don't have a lot of fast switch muscle.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:26.160
They right are at some form of high cardiovascular strain.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:31.680
They're close or at or near VO2 max very quickly, and they're just going as hard as they can.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:35.279
They're not producing a ton of lactate because they don't have a lot of fast switch muscle.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:42.960
It's the athlete that has a high sprint, high kind of one-minute power in relationship to their VO2 max.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:50.799
So a more fast twitch predominant athlete, those are the ones that need to do longer intervals, which usually makes them angry.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:55.039
So that's always a struggle because they don't want to do longer.
00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:00.240
Because what happens for an athlete with more fast twitch muscle, they have more anaerobic capacity.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:14.160
Their VO2 kinetics, their uptake, how quickly they're getting to at or near VO2 max, that takes longer because they're masking that journey with a good anaerobic contribution, a lot of stored energy, let's just say.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:22.720
So they might need a minute, a minute 15 to come to a high, you know, uh cardiovascular demand close to VO2 max.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:28.640
So you've got to burn that out of them by extending and making the longer interval.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:32.720
And the trade-off is they might have less overall intervals.
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:39.359
Both sets, though, I usually have a pretty clear target of total time at intensity.
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:53.759
And what would be like a total time at intensity for, and I know this is you're gonna say it depends, but let's just say a fairly mature, you've been coaching them for three years, uh, well-tuned engine.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:59.839
What's uh a range of time at intensity for a VO2 workout?
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.480
So two levels to answer that.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:13.680
Um I typically it depends on the athlete a little bit, but in the range of 20 to 25 minutes, total time, well, because you said mature athlete, right?
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:21.359
In a range of 20 to 25, I might start at 15 minutes, the first one, like you know, depending on the athlete you're doing, five times three or something like that.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:23.200
Immature athlete, less.
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.039
So immature means less training.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:26.160
So we said mature.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:35.359
But what I really want to work backwards, I want the athlete to, if we can measure this in real time, I want them to experience during all the intervals.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:42.240
If I looked at full time of intensity, I want them to have 12 to 15 minutes at or near their VO2 max.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.359
Like that's the total load I want to get out of the intervals.
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:46.160
That's ideal.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:57.200
There's a fair amount of research that pretty much shows that going over 15 minutes at or near VO2 max, significantly diminished returns, probably not worth the fatigue of investing in.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.160
Now, you get a highly efficient and developed athlete.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.079
They might need more because, again, there's a lot of things happening under the hood there.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.000
But that's a really good target.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:14.160
Now, if it takes you one minute to get up to VO2 max in every interval, that's why you might need 21 minutes to get 15, right?
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.640
You might need 18 to get 12.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:22.480
That's the variable, and that comes back to like the athlete's individual needs.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.160
But you can ballpark that pretty well in understanding by looking at heart rate.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.480
Like, what is their heart rate uptick in intervals and trying to get a feeling that way?
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:34.000
And heart rate's very variable.
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.640
It's hard to coach by heart rate, but it gives us excellent insight into the strain.
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.200
So that's what I'm targeting in my intervals.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.200
I want to start on the low side of that, and progression is key.
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.160
Like ABP.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:49.759
A B P.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.400
Always be pushing in these phases.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:53.920
Like, don't settle.
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:58.079
Like once you light this fast-acting fuse, let it burn.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:58.960
Be careful.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.720
And that's why you need to sleep, eat, recover, reduce your overall volume.
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:12.639
I love keeping one long day absolutely uh crucial, but maybe re reduce the days, other days' volumes a little more, a little depends on how time crunch.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:19.760
Uh like for a full training athlete, I'll reduce overall volume in this stage 20%.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:21.039
Yeah.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:21.440
Yeah.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:22.960
I was going to say 20, 25%.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.679
Yeah, and it depends on what that volume is exactly.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:27.920
Because you want them to also adapt to that.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.360
You want them to burn that fuse.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.239
You want them to keep pushing every interval set.
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:33.280
Yeah.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:33.760
Yeah.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:42.719
So just to kind of reiterate a few points, I I would definitely say without being reductionistic, 15 minutes is a great starting point for time in zone.
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:53.119
Scale up and down, depending on how new to the sport uh or how established you are, like in the sport, but at least 15 minutes of time in zone, aim for that, and that's good.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:55.440
So that's five by three, eight by two.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:01.920
Uh name the the recipe of intervals to to get there.
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:08.079
Um, but yes, I I would also say during this phase of training, it's not the time to reach for the stars.
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.719
I always tell that to my athletes like, don't be reaching.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.199
Like, you don't need to tack on an extra 15 minutes and get a gold star from coach today.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:21.519
You don't need to do an extra interval because like we're I'm already designing it to max you out, right?
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:30.400
And it some asterisk and caveats there, but you want to be careful in this as opposed to you know, zone three, you can be kind of sloppy.
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:35.280
You can kind of add a little bit more here, do a little bit more because it's it's all aerobic, right?
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.320
Um, so I mean, anything to add on to that, Tim?
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:38.800
Yeah.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.639
Everybody who just heard what Adam just said, go back, rewind, and listen again.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:49.840
It's the concept of what I call this is it all VO2 max workouts are advanced workouts.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.480
Here's why.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:56.800
They're not advanced because oh wait, my coach said do uh five times four minutes with four minutes rest.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:57.920
That seems really simple.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:05.119
They're advanced because there's an intensity discipline here that it doesn't mean like you're trying to hit a perfect target.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.400
You're going hard.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:12.480
But all of the things you're doing around that workout, what you're doing the week, you have to be super cautious in that.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:20.000
It is not the work you can do, it's the work you can adapt to that's gonna drive the results.
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:24.000
And I see so many athletes get into this phase and they do some really good stuff.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:25.920
And then nobody takes this with the fence.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:31.039
Then you do some really dumb stuff and you throw away a lot of work.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:33.920
Like that's what I mean by intensity discipline.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.599
I don't just mean am I doing 305 watts or 308 watts.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:44.800
I'm talking about in this phase that you need to be day in, day out, disciplined, and don't throw it away because I'm starting to feel great.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:52.000
I'm not gonna tell my coach, but I'm gonna, after my two-hour workout, I'm gonna jump in the local group ride and throw down and crush some souls.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:56.079
That's not the right way to do it.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:58.719
Once in a while, it's fine.
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.760
Yeah, you can you can shoot yourself in the foot there.
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:18.239
Um and too, I mean, I I think for all my athletes listening, uh, as well as Tim's, um, you need to understand that we do actually stress about these work like building these workouts and taking the more individualized approach to this.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:20.960
This is just isn't like a copy-paste sort of thing.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.800
I'm thinking about how much strain is being caused to the system.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:30.000
And so I want you to do that and go less off script in workouts like this.
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:44.320
Um, and in additionally, I I think that for a self-coached athlete, maybe that doesn't have all the analytics or you don't want to dive deep, go back to what and say, well, should I do five-minute intervals or or two-minute intervals?
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:50.800
Just go back to what Tim said is and ask yourself, which interval length do you prefer?
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:52.800
Now do the opposite.
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:56.320
Great advice.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:58.159
Uh I like this one.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:37:59.039
That other one sucks.
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:00.639
Yes, do the one that sucks.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:01.360
There you go.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.000
Exactly.
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:02.639
Exactly.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:09.920
Because self-coach athletes, and 95% of the people out there will not go hard enough on the hard days.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:21.840
There's some masochistic people that like will go full send and do it properly, but like most of us, myself included, very lazy, and we will not go as hard as we should in order to make a game.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.840
That's part of the adaptation.
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:26.639
Yeah.
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:31.840
Like honestly, one of the things that newer cyclists go through is you have to learn how to go hard.
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:32.320
Yeah.
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:34.320
Like you don't know what hard is, right?
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:39.599
There's an element of continuing to experience harder until you understand hard.
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:44.239
The first time you lay on the side of the ground and throw up, that's usually you figuring it out.
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.639
You know, that might have been a little too hard.
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.159
That's when you go, you've got to go over that edge to find the balance.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:50.719
Right.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.920
But I appreciate athletes like that because now I'm like, okay, good.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:55.679
Now we just dial it back.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.000
Yeah.
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:56.719
Just a little bit.
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:57.519
Then we got it.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:04.079
And it's to that end, it's like, okay, you know, I've had athletes like, when do I when do I know I need to raise my ceiling?
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.480
Not only from a timing standpoint, but sometimes you just need to go freaking hard.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:09.280
Yeah.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.920
You need to blow it out because you don't know where your edge is unless you go find it.
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:22.559
And then once you do, and that goes into like testing um episodes that Tim and I have done about how to know where your zones are at and all this kind of stuff.
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:30.719
Sometimes you just need to go real freaking hard because if you're doing events, if you're doing group rides, if you're doing races, those things start way harder than you want them to.
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:37.199
And doing some zone five and above work is gonna help you prepare for when you get punched in the face.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.199
Because you can have the greatest plan in the world, but you get punched and everything changes.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:46.880
Exactly the limitation from episode one of too much zone two.
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:48.639
Yeah.
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:50.000
Yep.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:51.039
That's right.
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:58.079
So with that said, Tim, we're gonna wrap this one here a little bit shorter than the others.
00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:01.440
Um, but uh, you know, before Before we go, I do want to ask.
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:05.039
You're wearing a cool shirt, says uh Basecamp.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:15.360
Uh, can you tell us a little bit more about what Basecamp is, your involvement with it, and if our listeners uh want to um explore it more, where where can they do that?
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.719
Oh, well, thanks.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.960
Um, I appreciate you liking my shirt.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:24.960
No, uh, well, Basecamp Endurance Coaching, we are a classic coaching company, as everybody knows.
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:26.960
We have over 30 coaches.
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:31.039
We have strength leaders, nutritionists, PhD, nutritionists on staff.
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.079
As a matter of fact, we we're very science-heavy.
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:37.360
We have seven PhDs in the team.
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:44.480
Um we do classic one-on-one coaching, but what we're really known for kind of is our community approach.
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:54.000
Uh, we run unique winter-based programs that are really based on strength, training, nutrition, mental performance, all working together in an athlete.
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:56.880
The community is a learning community.
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:03.280
So you train together, learn together with the focus of just helping people figure all this stuff out.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:04.960
And how can I be a better athlete?
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:06.400
How can I optimize my training?
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.920
How do I optimize my nutrition and strength work?
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:14.000
Um, we also do all the other classic coaching company things.
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.400
We do some camps and tours and stuff like that.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:20.480
Uh, you can always check us out at joinbasecamp.com.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:27.840
Uh, see the different things that we do, uh, throw in a question, and maybe we can help you, you know, or or not.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:29.760
Always glad to uh chat.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:40.400
Yeah, and uh, you know, I follow Tim on uh Instagram, and even though he's not as active as a junior cyclist there, but he travels to some pretty cool places.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:48.159
So um if if anyone wants to get more of Tim Cusick, um I go to Instagram, but also go to Basecamp.
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.400
Check out what they're doing there because it is really unique.
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.840
Uh I'm a big fan of what uh Tim and the whole team does over there.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:42:05.920
So I think it's a it's a pretty cool resource and uh just do a a little plug for that um because it is different, um, and it's a different way of of uh getting people fit, which I'm all about.
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.159
Thanks for that.
00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:10.000
All right, Tim.
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:17.840
Well, um we're gonna end this VO2 uh phase of episoding right now, and then we've got one more to go.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:36.239
So for all of our listeners who are rocking and rolling with this little mini-series of uh time course of adaptation, be sure to come back next week for the fourth and final episode where uh Tim and I will talk about anaerobic capacity and what to expect in your adaptation journey there.
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.280
Thanks for joining us on the Time Crunch Cyclist Podcast.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.559
We hope you enjoyed the show.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:52.400
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00:42:52.719 --> 00:43:00.800
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00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:02.079
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00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:06.079
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