Ep 23 The Roundtable: Where Heroes Talk 11132025 Thomas TA Walk, Veteran Poet - Part 1/2

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Alright, so This now this next one's never been
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performed this next one's uh, never been performed
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before I added this in just cuz I kind of liked
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how it came out and I was gonna share it with
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you guys I thought maybe you might like it This
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piece is You know about the way we talk to ourselves
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about the way we you know, tell ourselves we
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can't when we inherently know we can, or tell
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ourselves we've failed, even though we're still
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in the process of trying to win. And I think
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it's a matter of learning how to tell yourself
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again, hey, yes, I can. And just giving it your
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best chance or your best try, no matter what
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the outcome is. Because trying is winning when
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you're struggling as hard as some of us are.
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Trying is winning. So just keep trying. This
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piece is called Thought Exorcism. How can writing
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help you find your way out of the dark? How can
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a simple word on a page create a life -changing
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spark? I learned to say I can instead of I can't.
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I learned to have some patience instead of losing
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myself in a rant. See, I write the things I do
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not say because the paper doesn't judge me in
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a human way. I learn to write myself into the
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example that I needed instead of seeing a coward
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who has been completely defeated. We speak so
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poorly of ourselves, it's no wonder we're placed
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up on top of shelves to be forgotten by history,
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simply for failing to choose to be stronger than
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the obstacles ahead, stronger than the desire
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to be dead. Time to change the perception your
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illness created and build a foundation that cannot
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be desecrated. Your mental health can begin to
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change with a pen and a pad and the removal of
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all those negative thoughts you had. The power
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to change everything around you is in you. Finding
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it starts with exercising what's stopping you.
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Thank you. What's up, Hero Stock Nation? is up
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hero stock nation we are coming to you again
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with another episode from the roundtable where
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heroes talk you're gonna notice something a little
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different today me and Tom are doing that little
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you know switcheroo he is allowing me to sit
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in the host seat to talk to our guest today and
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you've met him before very briefly we had an
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episode of talked about the national veterans
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creative arts competition and he was one of our
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guests Today we're going to be getting a further
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dive into Tommy and what he does, what inspires
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him, what really, you know, kind of keeps him
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motivated. But first let me give you just a little
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bit of a bio on Tommy. Okay. Thomas walk is a
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medically retired army veteran. He is a six time
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national award winning poet and spoken word artist.
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His outstanding vocal work and mental health
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and advocacy earned him a tele award and an Emmy
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nomination. He currently runs a one -of -a -kind
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peer support workshop at his local VA. The workshop
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was launched as a concept first in November of
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2024 and then became a permanent bi -weekly workshop
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January 2025. There are currently plans to extend
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and expand with the VA alongside of plans to
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launch both a for -profit and non -profit extension
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of mental health through art. Please help me
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welcome Thomas walk Tommy Welcome to the show
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again, brother. Hey, bro. It's great to be here
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and It's always crazy to hear that kind of stuff
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read like it's sometimes I forget, you know,
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like you I know you struggle with your memory
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too, you know, like sometimes I forget and Then
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it's all just thrown at me in a package and I'm
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like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah, holy sound really
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cool, you know Well, Tommy, let's let's just
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jump right into a bud. It's good to see you.
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I always enjoy talking to you What's been going
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on very recently like kind of fill us in what's
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happened from? When we spoke about the National
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Veterans Creative Arts Festival up to now Um,
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well a big really big thing that's happened So
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I was accepted into a program here in Michigan
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called the Michigan's veterans entrepreneurial
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program And so I'm currently in a, I wanna say
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it's 14 weeks total. I'm in a program that's
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teaching me how to build a business plan from
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the ground up and expand my way of thinking and
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teaching me aspects that I wasn't paying attention
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to. And ultimately it ends up on December 15th,
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I'll be given a three minute pitch. followed
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by two minutes of questions by the judging panel
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to award potential startup money to get mental
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health through art moving forward a little bit
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better. Well, that's awesome. So this, when does
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this start? I'm in it. I'm in it right now. Um,
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yeah, I've been in it for, uh, what I'd say about,
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I think we just finished up week six. Next, next
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Monday night will be week seven. It's from six,
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uh, to nine PM. every Monday night. That's awesome,
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brother. It's been an awesome learning experience,
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man. Like, blew my mind, broadened my horizons.
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You know, ultimately, I was like, I want to just
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save the world, right? But I needed, I really
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needed to break that down. And this has really,
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really helped me do that, helped me focus, just
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kind of see what I really can do with this and
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those things that I can't. How can I overcome
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that, you know? Yeah. So you'd say that this
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has kind of helped get a little more energy towards
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what we talked about in your bio. And I know
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we'll go into kind of each one of those topics
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when it comes to like the ideas of expanding
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and moving to like a for -profit and a nonprofit.
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Right. It helps really push that stuff through,
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you know, mental mental health, you know, therapy
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through the creative arts. Right. Let's let's
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back up real quick. We told them we're gonna
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give you a deep dive into you So we're gonna
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go a little deeper and we're gonna go back to
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you in the army. All right Tell us what why did
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you join the army and what did you do? Oh That's
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great All right. So, you know I joined the army
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because I had gotten myself into enough trouble
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to not really have much left. Um at the time
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I was literally sleeping in the back of my car.
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It was winter time in Jersey back then, which
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gets cold. And I just was looking into the future
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of what was I in the eyes of my son. My son was
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pretty new then, my first boy. And I was really
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looking at how do I portray being somebody that
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he can look up to? And it ain't this. Got drunk
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and I went to the recruiter and I'd signed up
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man, and then it changed my whole life Yeah,
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so what did you do while you were in the army?
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So the first half of my career I was a combat
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engineer running heavy equipment So basically
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digging holes for tanks and dudes all over the
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place It's really fun, man, because I really
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enjoyed the work I'm a, I'm a technical thinker,
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you know, so all the digging and all that stuff,
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it can actually be more precise than most people
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think. It's not just digging a hole. So anyways,
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uh, and then I hurt my back really bad, had surgery
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and I reclassed over to medical maintenance.
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So I was actually on the medical side of the
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army, the second half of my career. Man, man.
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So how long, how long did you serve? Uh, I was
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in for 10 years active duty. Before I finally
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medically retired I retired due to injuries revolved
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around my back at the time They were still telling
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me that what there was no way I could have PTSD
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So I didn't get everything from the start But
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they took care of me a little bit to get me going
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and then I followed up and finished up and got
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what I was supposed to be getting So you I mean
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I guess we could really say that you know for
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you know Many who may be listening or even you
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know the one or two that kind of hear about this
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Episode and see it a little bit later on that
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it is a common thing where we're soldiers They
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get out of the military and they they keep fighting
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You know for benefits to get those ratings to
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really represent themselves completely in and
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hope that someone's someone's listening, right?
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Well, and that's because and remember sometimes
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it seems like forever and it can feel that way
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for me in My deployment was 06 07 And I was struggling
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mid -deployment because, you know, we have talked
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about what I went through. And I was struggling
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mid -deployment. Now, when I came home, I had
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a Navy, a high -ranking Navy officer, can't remember.
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But anyways, as a psychiatrist, and he told me
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straight up, you cannot have PTSD because you
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were not blown up and nobody shot you. So you
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need to go on and get out of my office and hoo
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-ah -hoo. And so, you know, that really devolved
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into me really thinking like, okay, so if there's
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nothing wrong, then what's wrong? Like, I really
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lost control of my ability to process what was
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going on. You know, I left the service in 2010.
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And I struggled until 2000, I want to say 18,
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19, even almost 20, I think, 2020 before I got
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my 100%. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I know there's been
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a few veterans that I have talked to that, you
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know, they say when they got out, you know, they
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didn't feel like they had deserved benefits from
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the VA. And I think that the kind of interaction
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that you're talking about really kind of helps
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shape the stigma that, well, if you didn't come
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back blown up, missing a limb or, you know, have
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a bullet hole somewhere, you know, then then
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you're fine. You're still fully mission capable
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and just go be the weapon that we want you to
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be. It's a hard thing to process, because you're
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not wrong. So I leave thinking, OK, so if nothing's
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wrong, then what's the deal? And clearly, if
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I don't have PTSD, there's definitely guys worse
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off than me. So what right do I have to even?
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I mean, it was years before I started that process
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because of my own stubbornness. Well, Matt might
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need it more than me. Matt might need it. I'm
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going to leave it alone. I'm going to leave it
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alone. And that was just you do that to yourself
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so much. You're convinced that that's the reality
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of your situation and it's not. Now on the other
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side of that coin, would you say that you feel
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like, you know, persevering over the challenges
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that you've faced over these last few years?
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That that in a way is helping you reshape, helping
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you kind of cancel out that stigma where you're
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able to talk to veterans or you're able to talk
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to people and say, no, no, you are right. You
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do deserve these things. It's there for you.
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and kind of help just break that stigma for them.
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Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I always let them
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know that they're worth everything that they
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don't think they're entitled to. But, you know,
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my work is very much more focused on the message
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that, you know, at a certain point, you got to
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do a little bit of inside work. You've really
00:12:40.820 --> 00:12:43.639
got to like take a look at what's going on. You've
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really got to open up and communicate. You know,
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my message is a little bit of a different angle.
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But yes, I always tell those guys, if they ask
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me, I do my best to guide them in the right direction.
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Like, bro, you're so much more, you're worth
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so much more than you realize. And we devalue
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ourselves so commonly. Oh yeah. I mean, I, I
00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:08.350
know you probably fit in that same boat where,
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you know, I mean, I strongly believe that, that
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nobody can say anything about me that I haven't
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already said about myself. You know like if you
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want to look at the number one catalyst all the
00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.379
negative things That i've ever heard a lot of
00:13:21.379 --> 00:13:25.019
that stuff comes from myself Yeah, so yeah that
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inside work that that willingness that drive
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.019
to you know If if there's gonna be change I have
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:33.840
to be the catalyst that brings in that change
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:37.259
that allows like you've said before Your possibilities
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are infinite, right? So you become that change
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And that motto that you love so much, man. I
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do love it, I do love it. And it comes from such
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a real place. You and I have talked in depth.
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I really was trying to commit suicide. I was
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driving drunk. I was drinking until I couldn't
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walk and then driving drunk with the expectation
00:14:00.019 --> 00:14:04.659
to not make it home. I wanted my problem to seem
00:14:04.659 --> 00:14:07.279
like an accident so I didn't hurt as many people
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.029
as badly. Right? So you know all that. And that's
00:14:11.029 --> 00:14:14.769
a hard thing to get through. But you know, our
00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:17.389
possibilities are infinite comes from look at
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where I'm at now, Matt. Yeah. You know, and the
00:14:21.330 --> 00:14:23.830
reality is, had I succeeded, I would not be here.
00:14:24.070 --> 00:14:27.590
I tried. Yeah. You know, and now I've got my
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daughter. who's awesome, you know, she's adorable
00:14:30.730 --> 00:14:33.230
too, man. Run her around here, terrorize in my
00:14:33.230 --> 00:14:36.210
house, dog. Ain't nobody around here slept right
00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:40.330
in, you know, but look, you know, that comes
00:14:40.330 --> 00:14:42.690
with a smile on my face, you know, that even
00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:45.929
that in and of itself, man, there was a time
00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:49.610
I couldn't find that, you know, and it's hard
00:14:49.610 --> 00:14:52.169
to say, but the truth is no matter how dark it
00:14:52.169 --> 00:14:54.529
is, people that are listening, man, no matter
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how dark it is, no matter how hard it is. You
00:14:57.460 --> 00:15:00.139
are so much stronger than you really realize
00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:03.080
that you are. You got to hold on. Absolutely.
00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:07.340
Absolutely. I agree. I'm 100 % man that, you
00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:10.080
know, if there's still a fight, well, then stay
00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.840
in the fight. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's let's do
00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:15.820
this real quick. I want to I want to talk. We're
00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:18.799
talking about your military service and and,
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.639
you know, your your experiences. What is one?
00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.779
I won't limit it to one. What are some of your
00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:29.600
fondest memories of serving in the military?
00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:35.279
Man, I'll tell you, you know, I have a hard time
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.059
with that one because of my memory issues. You
00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:41.059
know, it's funny because it comes in flashes
00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:44.899
sometimes, right? Like I'll see a big ass piece
00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:47.639
of equipment go by and I'll remember that time
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:53.169
that we like sank a bulldozer in the mud. Or,
00:15:53.169 --> 00:15:56.269
you know, when we were in basic, we actually
00:15:56.269 --> 00:16:01.909
we watched a guy straight up bury a truck in
00:16:01.909 --> 00:16:04.970
the mud because he kept just trying to save it
00:16:04.970 --> 00:16:08.230
and just kept making it worse. You know, and
00:16:08.230 --> 00:16:10.529
the thing is, I can't remember the names, but
00:16:10.529 --> 00:16:13.789
I remember the faces and I remember that I remember
00:16:13.789 --> 00:16:16.450
the camaraderie. And I remember the laughter,
00:16:16.490 --> 00:16:19.629
you know, I think probably at the time of my
00:16:19.629 --> 00:16:22.389
life, my highlight of my career was when I got
00:16:22.389 --> 00:16:24.590
stationed at shepherd air force base. Cause what
00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:26.990
army guy don't want down there in Texas, huh?
00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:30.649
Yeah. Yeah. That was a really dope time in my
00:16:30.649 --> 00:16:34.129
career, you know, like so much different, so
00:16:34.129 --> 00:16:36.909
much different. I really just felt like, you
00:16:36.909 --> 00:16:39.269
know, everything on the air force base was so
00:16:39.269 --> 00:16:42.779
much better than ours. Yeah. Felt like I was
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:46.240
in the rich neighborhood when I was here. Like
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.580
you suddenly just stumbled into a gated community.
00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:52.440
You're like, what in the world? I was there and
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.679
I was just reaping the rewards. You know, it's
00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.620
great, dude. Man, that's too funny. Now imagine,
00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.720
you know, those guys who buried those pieces
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:05.299
of equipment, what did the interaction look like
00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:07.259
when you had to tell like your first sergeant,
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:09.740
you know, like, hey, uh, We're going to have,
00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:11.339
you know, we're going to need some time to recover
00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:14.019
that thing. Dude, I'll tell you, you know, like
00:17:14.019 --> 00:17:17.559
those things were always funny because there
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:22.299
was obviously an air of irritation, but we were
00:17:22.299 --> 00:17:25.640
in training, dude. They damn right. Well, some
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.680
idiot was going to bury the field. They put him
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.200
out there to bury that truck because here's what
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.339
happened. You know how that works, Matt. They
00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:38.369
turned right around and all the recovery. It
00:17:38.369 --> 00:17:41.390
was right around the corner. Like they knew what
00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:43.930
they were doing, dude. They brought it. They
00:17:43.930 --> 00:17:47.069
did a whole demo on recovery operations, right?
00:17:47.210 --> 00:17:48.930
And it's like, man, you set that little dude
00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:51.890
up for failure. It makes me wonder if, you know,
00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:53.769
like your first sergeants and your sergeant first
00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:56.109
class, your platoon sergeants and whatnot, if
00:17:56.109 --> 00:17:57.710
they kind of tap each other on the shoulder,
00:17:57.809 --> 00:17:59.470
like just, just, just watch them real quick.
00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:03.519
Just watch them. Well, fun fact. I was lucky
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:06.779
enough for a while, I did get to turn around
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:09.839
and I was in the, um, I was one of the instructors
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:14.099
in the course I went through. Yes. Yes, we do.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.900
Yes, we do. We're, we're taking beds. Okay. Yeah.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.480
I bet it's that one. Absolutely bro. And you
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.539
know, it's crazy. Some of those instructors,
00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:26.680
how dead on they are. They just, they read those
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.380
soldiers so well. they're like nope that's the
00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:31.539
one that's gonna do this that's the one that's
00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:34.160
gonna do that and watch go ask that guy to get
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.359
some grid squares guarantees he goes yeah you
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.859
know there's the one that's gonna ask for blinker
00:18:39.859 --> 00:18:45.500
fluid you know crazy crazy man i remember so
00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:48.160
many i mean i remember you know basic training
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.400
because i mean I mean, I have a brain injury.
00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:53.460
So there are some things that I just, I just
00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:56.059
don't remember, right? There's those key things
00:18:56.059 --> 00:18:58.440
that happen in basic training. We're like, I'm
00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:02.220
never going to forget that. Uh, you know, and
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:05.519
of course zero day, I will never remember. Look
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.720
zero day. I'm going to never forget this chain
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.880
of events. When I first got to the thing before
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:12.720
zero day happened, you know, they're checking
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.519
you in, they're giving you a thousand shots and
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.269
jacking you up, right? There was this, there
00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:20.349
was this, I didn't know he was a drill instructor
00:19:20.349 --> 00:19:24.269
at the time. I really was unprepared. He was
00:19:24.269 --> 00:19:26.289
dirty eyeing me, man. And I was giving him the
00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:29.250
stink eye the whole time. Like I was really like
00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:33.910
starting like a community challenge accepted.
00:19:34.130 --> 00:19:38.109
Yeah, let's go. As it turns out, I find out he
00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:40.309
didn't even belong to the unit I got assigned
00:19:40.309 --> 00:19:44.490
to. But on zero day, he was there. Oh my God,
00:19:44.529 --> 00:19:47.329
he smoked. I did more push -ups than Paulie Shore
00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:49.730
that day, dude. Like, you ever seen In the Army
00:19:49.730 --> 00:19:53.630
Now? Oh yeah. Oh my God. I did so many push -ups
00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:57.470
in Basic, dude. I did so many push -ups. So,
00:19:58.710 --> 00:20:01.329
because we're talking about Basic, do you have
00:20:01.329 --> 00:20:05.410
any memories of like being smoked that you want
00:20:05.410 --> 00:20:08.309
to share? For those who don't know what being
00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:11.809
smoked is. It's a, it's a trial period. Let's
00:20:11.809 --> 00:20:14.690
just say that. I'll tell you. So I was at Fort
00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:18.329
Leonardwood, Missouri. Oh yeah. Me too. Yeah.
00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:21.210
And so when were you there summer or winter?
00:20:21.829 --> 00:20:24.569
I was there in the summer and I came back to
00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:27.470
the Fort Leonardwood for BFT where they call
00:20:27.470 --> 00:20:29.970
battle focused training in the winter time. Yep.
00:20:29.970 --> 00:20:31.869
So it was two extremes. It was like standing
00:20:31.869 --> 00:20:34.230
on the surface of the sun. Yes it was. And then,
00:20:34.230 --> 00:20:36.990
and then buried and then buried in the Arctic
00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:40.849
ice. You know, it was insane. And so it was crazy
00:20:40.849 --> 00:20:43.289
because Missouri was one of those places where
00:20:43.289 --> 00:20:46.430
like it just rained during blue skies. You remember
00:20:46.430 --> 00:20:49.410
that too? Oh, yeah. Like no clouds that anybody
00:20:49.410 --> 00:20:53.589
can find. But there's just rain. So I remember
00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:56.450
in the rain one time in the summer. So, you know,
00:20:56.509 --> 00:20:59.089
that humidity just keeps building. And we were
00:20:59.089 --> 00:21:02.740
out there running up and down this hill. Top
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:05.539
to bottom so you had a run and it was an incline
00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:08.359
bro. I mean it was agony agony and misery Yeah,
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.980
bro, like we're kind of like mountain climbing
00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:16.079
to get a hill Yeah, and we were you know, everybody
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.220
at first they always set you up. They're like
00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:21.960
everybody whoever's the first so you're like
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.019
Competing with each other that first couple times
00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:28.140
and then you realize in reality. This isn't a
00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.000
competition You're all in hell together, and
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:35.220
it's about to get worse. Nobody wins. And everybody
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:37.920
stops competing, and now you're just trying to
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.640
drag bodies up the hill, dude. Oh, man. Yeah,
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.859
man. And, you know, I think no matter what I
00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:50.319
ever can or cannot remember, I will always remember,
00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:54.839
like, the camaraderie, the vibration. Like, even
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.359
when I was mad at the dude next to me, we figured
00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.039
that it out because we what choice did you have?
00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:03.980
You were the only people you had, you know, like.
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:06.359
And so at the end of the day, it's not like they
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:08.859
were going to go, oh, he hurt my feelings. You're
00:22:08.859 --> 00:22:11.539
welcome. You can have this new assignment. That's
00:22:11.539 --> 00:22:15.900
not that happened, dude. Yeah. So, you know,
00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:19.480
that I will never forget. And I think that's
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:21.920
part of what made it so hard leaving the military.
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.220
I was really damaged. I was ready to go because
00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:27.579
I was hoping maybe that would be a fix. Right.
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.960
but once i was gone it was like there i was all
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.880
by myself like now where is everybody where's
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:38.759
the schedule where's dinner like yeah you know
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.640
yeah so what would you say were some of the some
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.440
of the biggest challenges when you got out of
00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.500
the military um and just kind of an example you
00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:51.059
know i mean you know a sense of identity you
00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:54.619
know well um things like that um you know for
00:22:54.619 --> 00:22:58.970
me like i always grew up Like I like Dungeons
00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:02.750
and Dragons. I like fantasy stuff. I always have
00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:06.589
had a hero complex I like to help people Yeah,
00:23:06.769 --> 00:23:10.089
you know and so like see and here we go because
00:23:10.089 --> 00:23:12.130
I just forgot what we were talking about See
00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:14.750
now you get a demonstration so remind what we
00:23:14.750 --> 00:23:16.990
were talking about Okay, so talking about the
00:23:16.990 --> 00:23:19.250
challenges that you you experienced when you
00:23:19.250 --> 00:23:21.829
got out of the military the things that the things
00:23:21.829 --> 00:23:24.880
that were and now no longer are you know I felt
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.000
so much pride in my uniform filling that hero
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.680
complex see that's where we were yeah yeah and
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:35.839
uh you know I felt so much pride in that uniform
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.099
because that's how I felt I mean like look at
00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:42.099
it we're how many like one percent of the population
00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:44.319
at a certain point we've been up to what three
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.700
or four I don't know but it's a small percentage
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:52.309
of the population stands in our shoes At that
00:23:52.309 --> 00:23:56.109
time in my life, that was such a point of pride.
00:23:56.410 --> 00:24:00.549
I was proud of that uniform. And when I left
00:24:00.549 --> 00:24:05.230
the service, I wasn't proud of anything. I didn't
00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:08.589
have anything. That had been my whole life for
00:24:08.589 --> 00:24:11.329
10 years. When you're in the military, you're
00:24:11.329 --> 00:24:15.490
pretty much tied down. And so I didn't have an
00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:20.589
identity. I had nothing. The uniform, I wasn't...
00:24:29.449 --> 00:24:53.980
the fifth for anything but failure. And having
00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:57.440
an illness coupled with all the stress of that
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.619
transition, I just lost my footing, man. I really
00:25:00.619 --> 00:25:03.599
lost my footing. I tried really hard to focus
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.740
on family and home for a long time, but I just
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.880
couldn't get rid of what was growing. Yeah. I
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.880
know in the previous episode that you were on,
00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:15.539
we talked about the the Veterans Creative Arts
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:17.359
Competition. There was something that you had
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:19.480
mentioned, and I kind of wanted to talk a little
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.099
more about that. It's, you know, I mean, having
00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:25.579
these thoughts that we have, you know, that intrusive
00:25:25.579 --> 00:25:27.859
thought or, you know, that voice in our head
00:25:27.859 --> 00:25:31.539
that takes up real estate that shouldn't. You
00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:33.819
know, and then hearing from somebody, you know,
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.480
and then they may have the best of intentions
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:38.180
at heart, but, you know, hearing someone, you
00:25:38.180 --> 00:25:40.460
know, say something simple like, just suck it
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:43.500
up, man. and how offensive that is. Absolutely.
00:25:43.779 --> 00:25:46.440
Right? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:49.299
Let's do that. Let's debate. Is it though, Matt?
00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:53.720
Is it offensive? Is it offensive? Let's be real
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:57.039
because here's the deal. We both know what we've
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.759
been through. The hardest thing to accept is
00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:05.559
that most of this struggle is an inside job.
00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:10.579
Oh yeah, absolutely. And so I would argue that
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:16.819
Suck it up is a pretty, pretty straight on, you
00:26:16.819 --> 00:26:22.759
know, summary. Yeah. Now I feel like what's offensive
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.900
about that is when we are in crisis thinking,
00:26:27.900 --> 00:26:31.539
we don't understand any of that. What I just
00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:34.019
said. Yeah. The intentions of the person who
00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:37.410
is delivering the message. Yep. and what they
00:26:37.410 --> 00:26:39.410
want to do for you or what they want to help
00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:43.490
you with, you lack the ability to comprehend
00:26:43.490 --> 00:26:46.430
it in a way that makes it conducive to your health,
00:26:46.950 --> 00:26:49.809
you know? Because sometimes in those moments,
00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:53.970
you can't see an hour from now. What am I supposed
00:26:53.970 --> 00:26:59.269
to suck up? There's nothing left. Yeah, it's
00:26:59.269 --> 00:27:01.559
like, you know, it's... You want to keep pouring
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:04.519
into things that you believe, you know, and still
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:08.160
saving something for yourself. Right. If we learn
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.240
how to adjust our focus, you know, like I just
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.400
said, I understand that sometimes that does offend
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.539
me. It really does. But also there's a part of
00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:20.839
me now that combats from the other side, too.
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:23.319
OK, fine. I want to argue. I want to fight. I
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.819
want to hold up time out because we both know.
00:27:54.740 --> 00:27:58.150
that there's nothing No, I think that that makes
00:27:58.150 --> 00:28:00.410
I think I think it makes sense I mean, I know
00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:03.630
that I mean we're all human We all you know getting
00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:06.269
we get connected to our feelings and you know
00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:08.170
with those feelings There are things that kind
00:28:08.170 --> 00:28:10.849
of really kind of stick together, you know, like
00:28:10.849 --> 00:28:15.750
happiness joy peace Those things are bonded together,
00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:19.289
but anger frustration, you know lashing out those
00:28:19.289 --> 00:28:22.539
things are bonded together, too and it's Trying
00:28:22.539 --> 00:28:24.779
to manage and I know we talked about the managed
00:28:24.779 --> 00:28:28.140
mind versus the man in the cage, right? Um, but
00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:32.039
trying to manage those in a way that keeps you
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:36.099
with your hands on the wheel, you know, so it's
00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:38.799
a, it's an interesting, you know, kind of, kind
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:43.160
of balance. Um, would you say that, that that
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.660
particular balance is something that you've gotten
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:49.359
better at? Yeah. Yeah. I think honestly, like
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:54.109
if, if like, Like six, seven years ago, me met
00:28:54.109 --> 00:28:58.130
me now. He probably punched me in my mouth. Yeah.
00:28:58.130 --> 00:28:59.690
Yeah. I think there's probably a lot of people
00:28:59.690 --> 00:29:01.930
out there like that. Yeah. Because, you know,
00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.769
like I gotta be honest. I'd have to really tell
00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:07.369
him, get it together. Like, and that would be
00:29:07.369 --> 00:29:10.849
so real. And, and I feel, and here's the thing
00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:15.609
he'd know, but he wouldn't want to hear it. Exactly.
00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:18.130
The, the new you talking to the old, you may
00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:20.910
say something along the lines of suck it up.
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:24.380
it up bro come on you're like oh not right now
00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:27.000
right and that's how the fight started right
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:31.180
yep so so it's a crazy war that we we battle
00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:34.539
with in in our head you know and but i mean that's
00:29:34.539 --> 00:29:36.099
just like you had mentioned it's one of those
00:29:36.099 --> 00:29:39.460
things that it's it's in it's an inside job you
00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:42.299
know like if we want that change we got to be
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:44.259
willing to get our hands dirty and fix ourselves
00:29:44.259 --> 00:29:47.839
you know right and really who who who wants to
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:50.549
take accountability You know, since you were
00:29:50.549 --> 00:29:53.309
a kid, you knew it was wrong to get that cookie
00:29:53.309 --> 00:29:55.809
out of that cookie jar, but you tried. And every
00:29:55.809 --> 00:29:57.990
time you got caught, you tried to get away with
00:29:57.990 --> 00:30:01.430
it. It's just something in us that doesn't want
00:30:01.430 --> 00:30:05.630
to, I guess, doesn't want to get berated. But
00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:08.750
the reality is it doesn't have to be like that
00:30:08.750 --> 00:30:11.069
with the right people. Yeah. Right. It's kind
00:30:11.069 --> 00:30:13.470
of like, I want my pity party, you know? Right.
00:30:13.630 --> 00:30:15.009
You know, you want to be able to go, well, what
00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:19.079
about me? Right. you know and then the big picture
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.200
is you take that that time that you have and
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.500
you know where it's kind of like a quiet contemplation
00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:26.500
where you're really kind of thinking and more
00:30:26.500 --> 00:30:28.980
more completeness if that makes sense instead
00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:32.039
of you know viewing something from only one perspective
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.240
it's looking at the other side of the coin right
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:37.960
you know i'm a big marvel fan right so you know
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.940
there's a in the original avengers movie right
00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:44.319
uh mark ruffalo the hulk yeah he's like he says
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.140
uh what's he saying um the secret The secret
00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:51.039
of always angry. Yeah. I mean, at a certain point,
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.339
that's kind of almost the reality of it. You
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:56.099
become exactly what you're fighting in order
00:30:56.099 --> 00:31:00.519
to fight it better. And then you change. Absolutely.
00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:04.940
You know, because I turned that rage on myself
00:31:04.940 --> 00:31:08.000
a lot for a long time. Right. I don't do that
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.220
anymore. But it was all a process because for
00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:14.079
a while it was either you or me. All right. Well,
00:31:14.259 --> 00:31:16.619
if I got a change, I guess I'll take the hit.
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.140
Well, then I got tired of taking the hit. And
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:21.339
then I learned, well, wait a minute, time to
00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:24.000
make some real adjustments. Right. Yeah. And
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.940
that's that's why I try to get these veterans
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:31.119
that I work with to to write because you don't
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.660
have to share that with anybody. I encourage
00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:37.960
everybody to share because that's where communication
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:40.640
starts. Those things you're afraid of that you're
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.559
writing down. if you share those with me bro
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.500
now i'm in there with you now i actually can
00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:50.579
to a degree help you fight this fight but with
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.559
zero information zero complication i can't even
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:59.259
help you with anything yeah i mean and it's it's
00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:01.680
one of those things where don't leave me in a
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.539
position to speculate because i can't help speculation
00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:09.500
you know so would you say that um you're writing
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.359
I mean, you would probably agree that, you know,
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.460
kind of getting into writing, it was for you
00:32:15.460 --> 00:32:18.119
when you first started. It was, you know, you
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:19.759
putting your thoughts and your feelings down
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.640
on paper. Right. What was it like? What was it
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.420
like kind of looking at that from that particular
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:30.779
standpoint of this is the change that I'm going
00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:34.559
to implement in my life. And at what point did
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.920
that become change that you wanted to help others
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.470
with? Wow. um wow that's a deep question you
00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:47.769
know at first i just understood that i was releasing
00:32:47.769 --> 00:32:51.690
something my work was really dark and really
00:32:51.690 --> 00:32:56.470
hard um but then there came a point where i genuinely
00:32:56.470 --> 00:33:03.089
started to focus my writing purposely so i got
00:33:03.089 --> 00:33:07.410
angry i wrote right not like Later, I was sitting
00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:09.490
here writing, feeling the time, but I started
00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:12.849
to purposely focus my writing. Well, what I started
00:33:12.849 --> 00:33:16.869
to see was while I was angry, I really wanted
00:33:16.869 --> 00:33:19.869
to put my hands on that. I wanted to do things
00:33:19.869 --> 00:33:23.170
out of character when I wasn't angry anymore.
00:33:23.809 --> 00:33:26.349
I was able to look at that and go, bro, like
00:33:26.349 --> 00:33:29.190
you really need to take a step back because you
00:33:29.190 --> 00:33:32.589
shouldn't feel this way towards anybody. Yeah.
00:33:32.750 --> 00:33:36.950
Right. And so it gave me a position So for the
00:33:36.950 --> 00:33:39.390
first time, fundamentally see what everybody
00:33:39.390 --> 00:33:43.190
else saw wrong. I knew I was self -destructing,
00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:49.589
but I really didn't understand. I guess the how
00:33:49.589 --> 00:33:52.950
far I had gone. Yeah. Do you think that, I mean,
00:33:53.150 --> 00:33:55.109
perhaps, I mean, I'm kind of thinking of, you
00:33:55.109 --> 00:33:57.289
know, just trying to visualize it's, it's almost
00:33:57.289 --> 00:34:00.049
like shining a flashlight in a really dark room,
00:34:00.630 --> 00:34:04.930
looking for a pinpoint, you know, specific item.
00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:07.210
Yeah. You can go, that's what I want to work
00:34:07.210 --> 00:34:11.969
on. Yeah. Now, did your earliest work, was there
00:34:11.969 --> 00:34:13.989
a whole lot of search for resolution in that
00:34:13.989 --> 00:34:17.250
or was it just kind of get it out? Man, no, it
00:34:17.250 --> 00:34:22.170
was like vomit. It was like pain vomit, man.
00:34:22.250 --> 00:34:27.170
It was bad. I mean, I had a piece when I, you
00:34:27.170 --> 00:34:31.170
know, during all this, my wife and I lost the
00:34:31.170 --> 00:34:59.760
son. it I'm just amazed that you would do something
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.480
that raw on stage and thank you versus yo that
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.780
really is putting us in a place where we don't
00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:12.159
want to be and you need to stop doing that. That
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.559
really made me evaluate well all right and like
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:18.920
I said again focus my work all right well how
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.500
do I make this something somebody does want to
00:35:21.500 --> 00:35:27.150
hear. Ultimately where I started seeing it as
00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:29.389
something I wanted to do to help other people.
00:35:29.489 --> 00:35:33.889
Denver. Yeah. Yeah. Denver. After my mother,
00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:37.030
you know, talk, you know, my wife and the rec
00:35:37.030 --> 00:35:39.969
therapist team here pretty much bullied me into
00:35:39.969 --> 00:35:42.349
entering because I was, I didn't believe in my
00:35:42.349 --> 00:35:45.469
work. Yeah. But they saw you in a way that they
00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:48.449
wish you could see you a hundred percent. And
00:35:48.449 --> 00:36:11.579
look what it, look what came of it. Yeah. the
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:26.599
fifth So when that kind of validation comes from
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:29.639
somebody that has no idea who you are, and in
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.639
the scheme of things, will probably never ever
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:34.940
again know who you are. But in passing, there
00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:38.699
was a connection. Man, there's just something
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:42.599
different in that, that says, okay, look, nobody's
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.480
just trying to hold me up today. Nobody's doing
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.380
the crutch. Nobody's being my crutch today. They
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:52.579
meant it. And after a certain amount of time,
00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:57.880
I started to believe that. And that just helped
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:02.159
me fundamentally really find what I wanted to
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.039
do with what I was doing. Because it was still
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.059
kind of all over the place for a long time. Yeah.
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.019
I remember Denver, man. I remember seeing you
00:37:11.019 --> 00:37:14.500
up on stage, just running through it when we
00:37:14.500 --> 00:37:19.440
did our rehearsals. You could visibly see the
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.039
nervousness and the shaking and the quiver in
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:24.619
the lip and the shortness of breath. You could
00:37:24.619 --> 00:37:28.059
see those physical things happening. And I remember
00:37:28.059 --> 00:37:33.320
on the night when, hey, it's the final, like
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.519
rehearsals are done. We're gonna go out there
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.780
and we're gonna do what we came here to do. And
00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:42.860
I remember you in the dressing room and you're...
00:37:43.070 --> 00:37:45.909
Just breathe and trying to figure it out. And
00:37:45.909 --> 00:37:48.050
I was just like, all I could think in that moment,
00:37:48.210 --> 00:37:53.349
man, is like, everyone here is here for you.
00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:56.469
You know, no one wants anything bad for you.
00:37:57.429 --> 00:38:01.929
And dude, I'm telling you, it was so loud after
00:38:01.929 --> 00:38:05.989
you finished, we could hear the crowd in the
00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:09.599
dressing room. And I just, I was so happy. When
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.639
you came back man, oh did it man and that's what
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.199
did it and you know, that's a good point Everybody
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.760
was literally I mean people bought tickets to
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:21.639
the show to be there for us. Everybody really
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.800
was there for us You're not wrong, but it is
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.699
a good Example of this illness. I didn't hear
00:38:28.699 --> 00:38:33.360
any of that. I didn't know any of that Yeah at
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:37.559
moment. I was doing I was climbing Mount Everest
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.400
And I was out of oxygen in my tanks and I was
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.360
in muscle fatigue and I was going down, dude.
00:38:44.380 --> 00:38:46.880
But that's what I'm saying. You know, for me,
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:52.079
every time I hit that moment, but also move forward,
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:58.980
I win and I prove myself more well. Does that
00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:02.119
make sense? I literally prove to myself in that
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.500
moment I've won. I can turn around and go, ha,
00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:10.570
ha, ha. Right. I did. beat you and in that there
00:39:10.570 --> 00:39:13.769
is something powerful you know and even if it
00:39:13.769 --> 00:39:16.530
doesn't even matter what you do just do something
00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:20.730
achieve anything because those small victories
00:39:20.730 --> 00:39:23.969
they lead the bigger ones dude absolutely well
00:39:23.969 --> 00:39:27.110
i used to i used to work at the uh the combatives
00:39:27.110 --> 00:39:30.519
academy in fort richardson alaska and One of
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:33.199
the things we always try to tell soldiers, you
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.639
know, we're talking about grappling over dominant
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.119
body positions, that you're going to have an
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:40.679
opponent that outweighs you. You're going to
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:43.199
have an opponent that is stronger than you, more
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:47.360
skilled than you. Staying still is not an option.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:51.000
Right. You need to move. Yep. If you move and
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.179
it's not a very good position, move again. Yep.
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.980
You know, move until there are no more moves.
00:39:57.460 --> 00:39:59.789
Absolutely. You know, staying, staying still
00:39:59.789 --> 00:40:02.349
in that, in that train of thought is not an option.
00:40:02.809 --> 00:40:04.989
Absolutely. And that's the thing, because this
00:40:04.989 --> 00:40:07.550
mental fight, it's the thing, it's the same thing.
00:40:08.090 --> 00:40:11.750
If I stop moving, Oh, the thoughts start climbing
00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:15.170
in and crowding in and it's hard, you know, but
00:40:15.170 --> 00:40:18.809
here's the thing. Like the fun thing about mental
00:40:18.809 --> 00:40:22.389
warfare is you got more tools. Even if you can't
00:40:22.389 --> 00:40:24.789
get up out of bed, you can use your paper and
00:40:24.789 --> 00:40:28.590
your pen. Yeah. You can release something. You
00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:30.750
know that piece that you like that I did called
00:40:30.750 --> 00:40:33.489
he can about all the things I could get do that
00:40:33.489 --> 00:40:35.909
day. I was stuck in bed I really that's what
00:40:35.909 --> 00:40:38.969
I did. I was I couldn't get up that day was talking
00:40:38.969 --> 00:40:42.750
myself Right there stuck in bed under the covers
00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:44.909
and I just picked up my pad and pen and started
00:40:44.909 --> 00:40:50.730
writing And you know there we were So it we we've
00:40:50.730 --> 00:40:53.150
mentioned in the previous episode and we've kind
00:40:53.150 --> 00:40:55.369
of briefly touched on it in this one You are
00:40:55.369 --> 00:41:01.090
a nationally recognized poet Right now How many
00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:04.909
books do you have out now? Currently in print
00:41:04.909 --> 00:41:09.090
I have seven collections of poetry. Okay, and
00:41:09.090 --> 00:41:14.210
I have Three fiction works public. Okay. Well,
00:41:14.230 --> 00:41:16.849
do you did you bring something to share with
00:41:16.849 --> 00:41:23.489
us today? Now this other one that I added in
00:41:23.489 --> 00:41:28.489
here is a really powerful It's a really powerful
00:41:28.489 --> 00:41:32.289
piece to me because it really just kind of dips
00:41:32.289 --> 00:41:37.949
in and mentions all the different stuff that's
00:41:37.949 --> 00:41:41.269
really kind of going on. It's an amalgam of different
00:41:41.269 --> 00:41:44.969
situations. It's never the same thing. Tomorrow
00:41:44.969 --> 00:41:49.550
could be angry and sad and happy. And the day
00:41:49.550 --> 00:41:52.889
after that could be happy. And the day after
00:41:52.889 --> 00:41:57.179
that could just be, you know, completely done
00:41:57.179 --> 00:42:01.000
and ready to give up and it's like rolling the
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:03.659
dice every morning for a random outcome and it's
00:42:03.659 --> 00:42:05.980
hard and I wanted to try to paint a picture of
00:42:05.980 --> 00:42:10.239
that. This piece was in our exhibit in September
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:15.260
and it got a lot of attention and I actually
00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:18.719
used my AI music program to create a song from
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:21.400
this that you can find on SoundCloud that personally
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.880
I just absolutely love because every time I hear
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:29.380
it I just, it's a genuine snapshot to me of the
00:42:29.380 --> 00:42:33.500
whole picture of my mental illness and I'm really
00:42:33.500 --> 00:42:36.820
proud of it. So this piece is called Dissection
00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:41.840
of a Broken Mind. Welcome everyone to a dissection
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.079
of my head. Let's talk about what goes on inside
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:48.539
that often goes unsaid. The regrets, the what
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:52.079
ifs, and even the voices that want me dead. We're
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.360
doing this because my phone rings when you need
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.119
help because you can see how strong I am. But
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.440
what you don't realize in the time between is
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.800
just how weak I really am and how the smile you
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:06.679
so often see me wear is actually a sham. It's
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:10.199
like a war zone in here. Nothing is ever verifiably
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.380
clear. Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong. I have
00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:16.300
no idea sometimes what's going on. I have no
00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:18.800
idea sometimes where I belong. And even when
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.880
I feel I fit in, it feels like a trick. Like
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.519
any moment someone I love will just split because
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.639
I was too much to handle. Inside my head lies
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:33.099
fear and dread, suicidal thoughts that push me
00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:35.900
to the edge. I can't forgive myself of all the
00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:38.400
things I've seen. I wish I could take back some
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:40.599
of the places I've been and I want to change
00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:43.619
my own opinion of me. But I only seem to see
00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:46.659
the monster I believe won't let me be myself.
00:43:47.699 --> 00:43:50.659
How do I stop pacing in circles waiting on a
00:43:50.659 --> 00:43:53.789
miracle? How do I stop cursing at God for letting
00:43:53.789 --> 00:43:57.530
me keep myself less spiritual? I want someone
00:43:57.530 --> 00:44:00.449
to blame. So this mistake isn't signed in my
00:44:00.449 --> 00:44:03.610
name. In the middle of all these metaphysical
00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:06.010
and metaphorical questions, I gotta be a father
00:44:06.010 --> 00:44:08.630
and teach my kids some lessons. So I'm burning
00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:11.449
the candlewick from both ends while I'm desperately
00:44:11.449 --> 00:44:14.610
trying to make amends for mistake I made without
00:44:14.610 --> 00:44:18.090
control or concern for bridges that I so casually
00:44:18.090 --> 00:44:22.449
burned. Meanwhile, I'm stumbling, bumbling, making
00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:25.000
brand new mistakes. Straight up terrified because
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.760
I'm playing for much higher stakes. I feel like
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.119
I'm fumbling the ball play after play, but it
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:32.780
don't feel like practice. It always feels like
00:44:32.780 --> 00:44:36.059
game day. So my anxiety is always running at
00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:38.659
peak and it comes out wonky when I try to speak.
00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:41.579
Now I'm recognizing patterns in myself of past
00:44:41.579 --> 00:44:43.820
behavior while I'm perpetuating the idea that
00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:46.639
I'm my own savior and I'm constantly doubting
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.119
that I know what I'm talking about. So much so
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.199
that sometimes I can't even sprout so much as
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:56.110
one seedling. from an idea now all of this is
00:44:56.110 --> 00:44:58.489
going on all the time i'm constantly running
00:44:58.489 --> 00:45:01.829
empty on overtime fundamentally impacting my
00:45:01.829 --> 00:45:04.690
ability to write a rhyme so i smoke two joints
00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:07.030
before i smoke two joints like i learned from
00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:09.809
sublime just to slow things down for a clear
00:45:09.809 --> 00:45:14.530
thought a rest from the chaos so earnestly sought
00:45:14.530 --> 00:45:18.199
but understand i don't really get high See, that
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:21.539
just kicks things into overdrive. No, I smoke
00:45:21.539 --> 00:45:25.679
until I find the wellness I seek, that unwavering
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:29.079
peace I need when I'm weak, that I cannot find
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.099
rolling the dice with Big Pharma, because taking
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:35.099
the risk that what they won't do won't further
00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:39.530
harm you is too much more to ask of me. So I'm
00:45:39.530 --> 00:45:43.010
in constant combat under attack from an unknown
00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:46.110
threat some residual leftover Traumatic impact
00:45:46.110 --> 00:45:48.730
and it could be this or it might be that so there's
00:45:48.730 --> 00:45:51.670
no real lasting Peace for me to find because
00:45:51.670 --> 00:45:54.289
the trauma left a fingerprint. I can't erase
00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:57.389
off my mind But I'm out here showing you this
00:45:57.389 --> 00:46:00.969
chaos So that maybe you are not left at a loss
00:46:00.969 --> 00:46:04.530
so that maybe you understand a bit more Should
00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:10.760
this war ever come to your door? Thank you That
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:12.599
let me let me go ahead and just ask you this
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:16.000
question kind of jumping back into the you know
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.280
You're writing being something that you initially
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:19.780
were just trying to you know, it's like you said
00:46:19.780 --> 00:46:23.340
like vomit just getting it out And then there
00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:26.039
were things that were you know, just dark and
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.500
angry and just kind of like a disheveled chaos
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:31.440
But at least it was out Do you find yourself
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:34.500
going back to those pieces of work now and trying
00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:39.590
to create resolution in them? That's pretty cool.
00:46:39.789 --> 00:46:41.809
Uh, so you just made me actually remember something
00:46:41.809 --> 00:46:44.250
I had a buddy of mine back in the day to ask
00:46:44.250 --> 00:46:48.829
me if I was One of those guys that writes sequels
00:46:48.829 --> 00:46:51.869
Yeah, it was work, you know, and I see that as
00:46:51.869 --> 00:46:55.250
the same thing like a throwback to kind of respond
00:46:55.250 --> 00:46:58.929
and i've been thinking about it I got a couple
00:46:58.929 --> 00:47:02.150
of um poems that are entitled, you know, like
00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:07.099
what am I or who am I? and There is part of me
00:47:07.099 --> 00:47:10.059
that wants to go back and say, hey, bro, this
00:47:10.059 --> 00:47:14.039
is who you are, right? But ultimately, I want
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:16.940
to pay respect to who that person was when he
00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:19.659
wrote that, too. I don't feel like that poem
00:47:19.659 --> 00:47:22.320
needs resolution. He didn't need resolution.
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:26.059
He needed to release, right? Kind of like viewing
00:47:26.059 --> 00:47:31.349
it almost like a growth chart. Absolutely. Perseverance
00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:33.489
looks a little differently now, but perseverance
00:47:33.489 --> 00:47:37.309
back then was shrouded in some pretty dark, hard
00:47:37.309 --> 00:47:41.389
moments. Absolutely. And to go back and answer
00:47:41.389 --> 00:47:43.889
that callback, it'd be the same thing. Would
00:47:43.889 --> 00:47:47.989
he listen to me? Yeah. And in the case that he
00:47:47.989 --> 00:47:51.050
won't, what is the point of wasting my time?
00:47:51.510 --> 00:47:55.630
Because what I do is I let those words out into
00:47:55.630 --> 00:47:59.150
the universe in different style, things like
00:47:59.150 --> 00:48:03.780
meant to be. Right or stupid poetry. Yeah stupid
00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:07.400
but like and so I think that if there's a version
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:12.099
of him that's able to hear that He gets it Yeah
00:48:12.099 --> 00:48:16.159
Hmm. It's interesting, man I'd love hearing you
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.679
talk about your work because I know both you
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:20.739
and I have talked numerous times you know on
00:48:20.739 --> 00:48:22.900
the phone where you know whether it's like hey
00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:25.860
I got a challenge for you or or you share something
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:28.480
with me and I I give you a perspective and you're
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:31.159
like ah see I knew you were probably gonna get
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:34.420
it like that and it's just it's so good to have
00:48:34.420 --> 00:48:36.900
you know kind of you know instead of being in
00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:38.960
that that battle by yourself in your mind you
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:41.420
know you got hey you got a battle buddy absolutely
00:48:41.420 --> 00:48:45.000
right And both you and I are the caliber of person
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.199
that we don't want to see people experience,
00:48:48.199 --> 00:48:52.199
you know, trauma or, or hard times. Um, so we
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.699
want to do everything we can to help them. Absolutely,
00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:57.380
man. Um, now this is a question kind of off the
00:48:57.380 --> 00:48:59.099
wall. I know we was talking about uniforms and
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:00.900
whatnot. Do you ever put your uniform on and
00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:04.059
just kind of strut around the house? Nah. No.
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:08.320
Nah. I'm the only one then. Maybe, maybe Matt,
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:11.969
you might be a peacock, bro. Maybe. I tell you
00:49:11.969 --> 00:49:14.409
what, I lie to myself every time I do it. I put
00:49:14.409 --> 00:49:15.969
it on, I stand in front of the mirror and I'm
00:49:15.969 --> 00:49:20.989
like, I still got it. No, you don't. No, you
00:49:20.989 --> 00:49:23.710
know, I'll tell you, first of all, number one,
00:49:23.889 --> 00:49:28.989
I don't put that uniform on because again, I
00:49:28.989 --> 00:49:31.829
can't remember very well. I don't actually know
00:49:31.829 --> 00:49:35.010
if everything is in order or squared away. And
00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:38.090
the one thing I pride myself is in my whole military
00:49:38.090 --> 00:49:43.440
career, I only got it. gigged in like two or
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.280
three inspections in my whole career. I was really,
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:48.960
my uniform was squared away, man, till I really
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:53.059
started to decline. Like my appearance and, and
00:49:53.059 --> 00:49:55.760
stuff and my professionalism, I tried to keep
00:49:55.760 --> 00:49:57.699
up with that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that
00:49:57.699 --> 00:50:00.519
was the standard, you know, to maintain that
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:04.019
fit professional, you know, uh, you know, just
00:50:04.019 --> 00:50:05.960
rough as nails appearance. And I mean, I tell
00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:08.369
you now like, I put it on, but I certainly am
00:50:08.369 --> 00:50:10.230
not going to go get hemmed up by somebody who
00:50:10.230 --> 00:50:12.690
knows better. Right. That's the last thing I
00:50:12.690 --> 00:50:16.769
want. Now I got a pair of BDU pants that I wear.
00:50:17.630 --> 00:50:20.030
Yeah, sometimes like with a hoodie and stuff
00:50:20.030 --> 00:50:23.409
like that, but not as an actual uniform. I will.
00:50:23.409 --> 00:50:25.550
I will admit I did wear it out in public once.
00:50:25.610 --> 00:50:29.840
It was too. costume party and my nephews were
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.920
around and and so I wanted to dress up like soldier
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:37.619
again I have my you know my my camos on and and
00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:39.579
I went over there just like oh you look so cool
00:50:39.579 --> 00:50:41.719
but I'm gonna tell you what I was also 30 pounds
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:44.780
heavier yeah there was there was some issues
00:50:44.780 --> 00:50:47.840
with the the trim appearance you know what I
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.579
mean well you know it just means you're happy
00:50:52.579 --> 00:50:56.690
right oh yeah absolutely yeah brother So what
00:50:56.690 --> 00:50:59.289
do you think? Do we have a piece of literature
00:50:59.289 --> 00:51:05.530
you want to share with us? So yeah, you know,
00:51:05.530 --> 00:51:07.789
I don't actually have any real copies around.
00:51:07.829 --> 00:51:11.130
This is the author copy. So it's got like a do
00:51:11.130 --> 00:51:15.929
not sell band on it. Did you have anything in
00:51:15.929 --> 00:51:20.710
mind? No, no, I want you to read what kind of
00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:25.460
speaks to you. Well. So you keep going back to
00:51:25.460 --> 00:51:30.380
the way the past was, you know? And, you know,
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:32.719
there's a lot of profanity in some of this old
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.420
stuff. Are you ready for that? Well, I think
00:51:35.420 --> 00:51:37.380
we got time in the background. You can clip it
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:44.659
out. Fair enough. All right, so. Now, if he gets
00:51:44.659 --> 00:51:48.539
on and watches, I got a buddy of mine, Mr. Blank.
00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:51.449
Really, really liked this poem when he first
00:51:51.449 --> 00:51:53.329
read it back in the day. I'm going to go ahead
00:51:53.329 --> 00:51:55.750
and read this to you, but be prepared. Give us
00:51:55.750 --> 00:51:57.789
the title, give us the title and maybe kind of
00:51:57.789 --> 00:51:59.969
speak on where you were when it, when it was
00:51:59.969 --> 00:52:05.750
created. All right. Um, so in my head, I was
00:52:05.750 --> 00:52:09.530
really just screaming and everybody that kept
00:52:09.530 --> 00:52:12.949
telling me that they understood. You ever, you
00:52:12.949 --> 00:52:16.449
ever in, in, you know, when you're not doing
00:52:16.449 --> 00:52:20.969
so well, you ever have. a civilian tell you that
00:52:20.969 --> 00:52:24.329
they get it. Hey man, I get it. I totally understand.
00:52:25.030 --> 00:52:28.309
You might understand PTSD, but you don't understand.
00:52:28.570 --> 00:52:30.690
You don't understand what I'm saying and what
00:52:30.690 --> 00:52:33.489
I'm trying to convey about what I've been through,
00:52:33.630 --> 00:52:37.389
right? And it made me angry, really angry because
00:52:37.389 --> 00:52:41.829
like, what right do you have to try to, hmm.
00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:44.679
Compare yourself, that's how I felt. Compare
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:47.199
yourself to me. I'm going through this and you're
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:49.579
sitting over there and are you serious? You know,
00:52:49.579 --> 00:52:54.440
that kind of mentality. Yeah. So this piece is
00:52:54.440 --> 00:53:00.679
called, So You Think You Understand. So you say
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:03.559
you understand, but I don't think you do. And
00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:05.199
I'll tell you something else, my friend, that
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:08.280
makes me angry too. Maybe you can understand
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:10.760
some of the things I say, but certainly you don't
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:13.630
get everything that made me this way. Have you
00:53:13.630 --> 00:53:17.210
ever seen a child crying for the dead and the
00:53:17.210 --> 00:53:19.969
child that he's crying for is missing half their
00:53:19.969 --> 00:53:23.269
head? Now they'll say I went too far and said
00:53:23.269 --> 00:53:25.449
something that is wrong, but I get to watch it
00:53:25.449 --> 00:53:29.429
in my head my entire lifetime long. Those children
00:53:29.429 --> 00:53:32.289
are replaced by mine when I drift away for snores.
00:53:32.309 --> 00:53:36.369
I always watch them dying. Those Z's for me,
00:53:36.829 --> 00:53:39.909
they're chores. Have people ever shot at you?
00:53:40.059 --> 00:53:43.440
but not just with a toy. Then you go and turn
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:47.840
around and the gunman's just a boy. I was almost
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:51.920
blown up once, survived by a literal inch. If
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.900
I'd stumbled my way around that night, I wouldn't
00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:58.280
have needed a pinch. See, I would have been dead,
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:01.500
just pretending to be asleep. And some days I
00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:04.320
still long for that so my dark thoughts can't
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.050
creep. Once I worked nearby a ward where they
00:54:08.050 --> 00:54:10.530
saved people like you, but there were dead bodies
00:54:10.530 --> 00:54:16.750
everywhere, men, women, and children too. Then
00:54:16.750 --> 00:54:19.210
you get really angry because of all you've seen
00:54:19.210 --> 00:54:22.110
and it eats into your soul for breakfast and
00:54:22.110 --> 00:54:25.369
lunch and dinner if it's keen. You isolate for
00:54:25.369 --> 00:54:27.630
safety for the people you're around, but then
00:54:27.630 --> 00:54:30.469
when they're needed, they're nowhere to be found.
00:54:31.369 --> 00:54:34.230
People say in their family, great, because that's
00:54:34.230 --> 00:54:36.920
what I need. But in reality, they're looking
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:42.039
for my misery, so they can feed. Some that stay
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.860
are tougher, seemingly built for anything, but
00:54:44.860 --> 00:54:48.639
once they see the horror, it's fear they always
00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:52.260
bring. They're scared that I might lose control
00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:56.119
or just start an argument, as if my anger differs
00:54:56.119 --> 00:55:00.000
from theirs and I'm just malcontent. What if
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.139
this was all just an act, but now I can't get
00:55:03.139 --> 00:55:06.619
me back? I feel like an addict between a fix
00:55:06.619 --> 00:55:10.719
always in pain like I'm under attack. Oh, look,
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:14.039
there he goes again. Hey, wait, I'm just a little
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:18.039
upset. I did the only possible right thing yet
00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:23.360
pointed at is all I get. I'm just a regular guy
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:26.119
with feelings like all the rest. I'm just a bit
00:55:26.119 --> 00:55:29.119
more broken, but I still aim to be the best.
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:32.340
It's all a game inside my head, one that I have
00:55:32.340 --> 00:55:35.340
to play for keeps. I just hold it all inside
00:55:35.340 --> 00:55:39.860
myself and I break while everybody sleeps. See,
00:55:39.860 --> 00:55:42.500
I can only give so much before I need one back.
00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:45.219
People seem to think it's me when it's them that
00:55:45.219 --> 00:55:48.760
truly lack. I give and give and ask only for
00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:51.679
love, but still the reality is such that my most
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:55.440
challenging days have made me hate you so damn
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:58.820
much. Every day I would ask them, oh, am I doing
00:55:58.820 --> 00:56:01.500
well? And they'd look at me and they'd smile
00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:05.159
at me. and lies were all they would tell. You
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:08.920
said that you would help fight off all this hate
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:11.780
but in the end you helped yourself and you just
00:56:11.780 --> 00:56:15.800
helped seal my fate. You said I could miss a
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:18.860
beat and now I'm standing here all alone just
00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:22.760
wallowing in defeat. But wait I remind myself
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:26.119
as I have done before I knew deep down you didn't
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.420
and now I know it more. Let me buckle up my belt
00:56:29.420 --> 00:56:32.440
and tie these shoes real tight Let me get out
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:35.619
of my head and make this all all right. Let me
00:56:35.619 --> 00:56:38.340
stand up back up and glance this off my chin.
00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:40.880
I got a lot of things to do and I'll be damned
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:44.820
if I won't win. Now I do have my ups and downs
00:56:44.820 --> 00:56:47.780
and sometimes I still sin, but I have got a lot
00:56:47.780 --> 00:56:51.139
of good to settle somebody in. If you listen,
00:56:51.139 --> 00:56:53.539
maybe you get it a little bit better than you
00:56:53.539 --> 00:56:56.400
did. But just remember this, my friend, we all
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.460
keep some things hid. But the whole story is
00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:03.460
never discussed, no. Far from it. In fact and
00:57:03.460 --> 00:57:08.099
no warrior is ever at peace after we come back
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:13.340
Yeah No, I mean you just answered my next question
00:57:13.340 --> 00:57:18.559
brother, I mean I gotta tell you Whoo Yeah, my
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:20.679
next question was gonna be does any of your work
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:25.940
ever Take you back and and have you you know
00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:28.059
experience those feelings I could see it brother.
00:57:28.059 --> 00:57:34.199
I appreciate you for sharing that Alright folks,
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:38.679
that wraps up our episode for tonight. Coming
00:57:38.679 --> 00:57:41.659
up in December, we got some more coming right
00:57:41.659 --> 00:57:44.719
back at you from the Roundtable. And we have
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:47.219
December 3rd, Jack Blaze, who's in the United
00:57:47.219 --> 00:57:50.250
States. Army and Marie Corvette, who's going
00:57:50.250 --> 00:57:52.530
to come on and share with us his music and his
00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:55.230
story. And then on the 10th, we have US Army
00:57:55.230 --> 00:57:58.550
veteran Tim Meegan Jr. going to join us and do
00:57:58.550 --> 00:58:02.630
exactly what we do here. We talk, we share, and
00:58:02.630 --> 00:58:05.610
we connect. So looking forward to having both
00:58:05.610 --> 00:58:08.289
them on the show. We will see you at the next
00:58:08.289 --> 00:58:10.829
episode of the Roundtable Where Heroes Talk.
00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:24.900
I am Matt Jones. Good night. What's up, Hero
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:25.480
Stock Nation?