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Welcome to the published author podcast,
where we help entrepreneurs learn how to write
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a book and leverage it to grow
their business and make an impact. I'm
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your host, Josh Steinley. Today
my guest is Ben Salmon. Ben Is
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the author of your numbers up,
getting a grip on data and measurement to
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accelerate your direct to consumer e commerce
sales. It's a bit of a niche,
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but that's great and we're going to
talk about why that's such a good
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thing. Ben Is highly qualified to
write this book, having held global rolls
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with leading marketing technology companies like UNICA, Cordian, smart focus and pittany bows
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software, as well as leading the
data charge at big agencies like our APP
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and DDB. Now he works directly
with brands that want to take control by
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using data to identify where to best
focus efforts to help them grow rapidly.
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been works with these brands to bridge
data technology and marketing with commercial and common
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sense thinking. been welcome to the
show. Thank you, Jeff. Really
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really appreciates it and, full disclosure, I had a tiny hand in helping
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book been with his book while he
was writing it, because he was interviewing
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a ton of people which will talk
more about how he got this book written
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and how he relied on a lot
of people to give input into it.
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And so it's fun to be on
this side of things now, because I
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saw the book while it was being
written. Now I get to see the
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book on the other side, after
got published, and now we get to
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hear the whole story of how it
happened. But then first perhaps can you
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take us back a little bit through
your professional career? When did you first
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get interested in Beta? How did
you end up getting to this point where
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you're writing a book about this topic? So so, first and foremost,
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thank you so much for your help
on an interview and time and stuff when
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right in the book, because it's
for sure and everyone was was mega.
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I'll try do a quick pepper history. So I started off kind of software
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side works in in marketing technology space. I did that for a few years
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and then I kind of realized very
quickly that it's great having theory about data
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and technology, but I haven't actually
ever implemented it whatever worked using the technology.
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It sounds sounds ludicrous, doesn't it, but you know, implementing this
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technology and never using I've never been
a brand side or agency side. So
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I decided to stop selling the dream
and live the dream of guests. To
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certain extent I went agency side and
worked, as you said it, with
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rap and DDB to really understand the
marketing universe with clients, and then after
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a period of they're of getting tired
of kind of doing too much marketing stuff,
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I went back to the kind of
the software technology world and I've been
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doing that ever since. I think
the big change is when I first started
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off, which is kind of amusing. I can't can't believe it saying this,
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but it was kind of like database
marketing life before email marketing, doing
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direct mail campaigns and things like that. And then I think as times progressed,
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more and more datas coming through digitally, and where I've ended up focusing
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is looking at digital data. So
that's, you know, bog landstics,
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data, ADDS data, but trying
to try and unpick all of this digital
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data, which should make it easy, because it's all the same as a
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visits are visits of the session.
A session is a conversions of conversion.
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But where you can spend the money
and where you can reach customers is so
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much harder than when I did email
campaigns and when I did direct mail campaigns,
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because you know they would land in
someone's door up doorstep. And so
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when did you get to the point
where you said I've got knowledge in a
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need to turn this into a book. So I want to write a book
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that covers this topic. So it
was borne out of two things. One,
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it was born out of frustration.
So there's tons of awesome books about
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technology, marketing technology, all sorts
of like implementation technology. There's there's loads
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of staff that's really cool about kind
of how to sell on Amazon. My
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Nights, as a shout out,
has done an amazing book on that and
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there's like really, really good books
on, you know, go to market
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and all sorts of stuff. We've
seen my strateies and stuff. But the
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one thing that kept coming back to
me is no one's measuring this stuff.
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So you're spending all this money and
and a media agencies telling you how many
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clicks you got, like be don't
put that on your annual report. You
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put like how much money you made
on your annual report. So the idea
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was that was borne out of frustration
and this time kind of last year was
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covid chaos. So we started writing
the book and and those. There was
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four of us involved, so I
wrote the content, Peter Abraham did all
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the typeset and design, Tim Shaw
was technical, technical advisory on having worked
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with a googlatics API and Linkedin API
and some of the other other platforms,
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and Jess cocklins did all the copywriting
and editing, and I kind of hatch
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the idea of maybe we should just
write about this measurement stuff. All these
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people keep asking like what does cost
pro acquisition mean? What does bounce rate
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mean, what does average order value
mean, and obviously all the acronyms,
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Josh, that everyone seems to use
interchangeably and not know what they mean.
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So it's like we should put this
in paper to help senior leaders and junior
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teams have have a have a Goto
book that they can read as really a
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reference coffee table book that they can
slam on their desks so that they can
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go back to it out time and
time again. Around measurement. What does
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this mean, and how to how
to grow their business? Quick break here.
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Are You an entrepreneur? Do you
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you need to become a published author. You've already waited long enough. Do
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it today. Now back to the
show. Yeah, and TUK a little
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bit more to us about the ideal
audience for this book. Who is the
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person who's going to profit the most
from reading and understanding what's in your book?
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Yeah, so it's good show.
I would say that we originally wrote
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it just for senior leaders and we
fill actually, we should give this to
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senior leaders and you know they'll put
the book and they'll use it. The
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the reality is actually it's saying to
the middle manages that all trying to better
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articulate the value of digital to that
bosses. And then bosses don't get it
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so great, example, but you
walk into the balldroom having a couple of
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sage. You're talking about cost proquisition
and then you're looking at maybe sessions to
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transaction and while the average would of
value seems to be lower on facebook because
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the retopting campaign isn't working. What, right, it's just as an example.
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What is all that mean? Yeah, bactly, and it's lots of
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the senior laid it leader is saying. Of course the senior leader has to
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look good. So, you know, adds his head and he's like Oh,
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yeah, yeah, I got all
that, yeah, no problem,
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but in reality he has no clue. Work was just communicated to her exactly.
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I've tried not usally acronyms. I've
just tried to use someone like the
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language that maybe maybe a middle to
see a manager would have presented to the
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board. And the bad again,
like what was it? All the means.
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So it's actually saying, look,
there's probably, you know, two
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hundred metrics you could talk about,
but actually to get your point across you
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need to better articulate the things that
matter. So this is for middle to
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senior managers. This is what you
need to say to when talking to senior
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leaders. Talk about outcomes, not
about clicks, not interesting clicks, outcomes
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like revenue, lifetime customer profit,
repeat, customer order rate and things like
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that, because that's what's driving the
business growth. But also, Josh,
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I think a lot of the craft
or has been lost in our trade around
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measurement. Like when we ran,
I'm showing my age, when we were
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in print campaigns. They were pretty
expensive. So you know, you made
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an error mistake on a large print
run, you had to get things right.
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So you measured lots of stuff like
response right and actually, weirdly,
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the journey was really disconnected. So
actually the idea is to bring some of
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that kind of measurement skill and knowledge
back, but in the digital space.
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So the junior teams are going and
challenging the people that are buying media,
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you know internally, or I medior
agents in going you it's great that you've
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got a clicking rate of two point
four percent. That's fantastic. How many
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sales did I get? And what
I'm by the way, was my cost
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of sale profitable based on my cost
of goods or allowable margin? So that's
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kind of yeah, that target audience
is kind of that middle management that they
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can maybe give it to their senior
leaders, but they're broad up your to
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read it, but help them better
engage with that senior team and then the
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junior team to better understand what they
should be measuring. So why did you
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decide on direct a consumer versus be
to bee or other spaces that you could
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have gone after? So I love
that one. So be to bees next's
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the next time. Get on the
list. Yeah, now, we're not
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the future. Yeah, we can, we can, we can. Claver
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right on that one as well.
So I think directing consumer in the early
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part of kind of the COVID outbreak. It just had this monster explosion huge
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number of brands going direct to consumer. You saw the likes of hers,
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Oreos, Nikely going direct to consumers, lots of you know, lots of
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brands going directing consumer. But it
was just like wow, having worked with
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a couple of different, I would
say traditional brands that gone direct consumer,
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Uni leave a group and wreck it. Benkiser, I was really surprised that
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merchandising and product and product research and
product ranging like and price point analysis,
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they new inside out, but they'd
never directly interacted with a consumer because they'd
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always wholesale their stuff. So actually
I thought, you know what, we
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should try and give them a manual, a book that they can use as
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a reference point. So hence the
direct consumer bit and the ECOMMERCE bit,
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because what I love about ECOMMERCE is
there's revenue at the end. So you
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can argue as much as you want, you can say attribution and all sorts
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of clever words and talk about stuff, at the end of the day,
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if you spent more money than you've
made, that's loss making. So you
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know there is a sale at the
end and if you can see that sale
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or that revenue number at the end, again, profits are we need to
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discuss in a minute. But there's
a revenue number at the end, you
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can absolutely see whether you've been successful, and that's something even a senior manager
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can understand. Yes, absolutely,
one hundred percent, exactly right. So
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what was your vision when you started
working on this book? We already answered
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why you wrote this book who you
wrote it for, but what did you
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want this book to do for you, in for the other people working on
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the book, like, what was
the incentive, because we all know you
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don't really make that much money off
of book sales. So what was your
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angle? What were you trying to
accomplish by putting this book out there?
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Right, so one's once an ambition
really for our sector or our market in
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terms of the marketing universe, and
one is pretty self filling. So the
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kind of ambition was, I want
to see digital revenue as a percentage of
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total revenue or, if you like, ecommerce sales as a percentage of total
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retail sales on every annual report,
so shareholders have complete transparency to see how
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much is being invested in, how
much digital is growing and control contributing to
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the business. So it was really
about getting digital on the annual report.
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It's this kind of sideline or you
get silly things like we've had three hundred
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percent year on your growth, but
if it represents one percent of your business,
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three hundred percent is not good.
So first and foremost it was about
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raising the awareness of a digital revenue
as a percentage of total revenue. But
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dain about you. How would this
benefit you? Are you trying to get
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speaking gigs? Are you trying to
grow consulting engagement's like? What did you
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want the book to do for you
personally? Yeah, yes, a really
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good shout. So, as you
said, you make no money from book
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sales. So what I want to
do is I have a consultancy business and
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I want to work directly with brands
that want to change and grown, and
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the easiest way for me to do
that is to write the book a show
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the kind of the knowledge and expertise, but also connect with brands that also
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have the same ambition. I've really
struggle when that, when the brands are
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like yeah, but digitals not that
really important. I know, I know
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you want to do all this measurement
stuff, but you know what it counts
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for? Like, well, we
don't even know how much of sales it
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accounts for, but it's just kind
of a rounding everything. We don't really
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want it. So I wanted to
use as a way of a reaching these
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brands and engaging with these brands and
be kind of saying that this is my
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philosophy, this is what I'm about. If you're interested, fantastic. That's
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what together. It shortcuts everything.
Like if they don't agree with anything in
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the book, then there's you know, you've already kindly qualified out. So
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they kind of reaching out saying actually, we've got this issue and we really
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want to take measurement seriously is self
fulfilling, right. You know, I
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want to grow the consultancy and side
of the business. Yep, and you
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reach out to a lot of people
as you were writing the book. Recently
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I interviewed a guy here on the
podcast, James Carberry, and he wrote
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a book called content based networking,
which is about using a tool like a
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book to connect with the people you
want to connect with. Because when you're
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writing a book, of course you
can reach out to people and say hey,
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you want to be part of my
book, and then they say yes,
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and now you're developing a relationship with
that person. Who they're going to
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be in the book. They're going
to help you write your book or make
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it better, but also maybe their
potential client or partner something. Did you
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leverage that at all as you were
writing the book? Did you reach out
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to people and say, Hey,
this person not only can help me make
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this book better, but it might
turn into a partnership or a client relationship?
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Yeah, so the short answer is
no. I wasn't looking at people
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as a potential climb. I was
looking at people for who had authority and
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Knowledge in the sector that would help
provide me a more well rounded view.
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Of course, you know, with
people's networks and they kind of that conversation
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that's going on and me chatting to
you now. I've ben't even know,
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as it's six, eight, eight
months later. You know, people have
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been very kind to kind of help
promote the book, but that wasn't the
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sole purpose. And sole purpose was
to get that kind of what well rounded
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view of kind of what's going on
in the market. And I'm I,
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you know, I'm I just living
a dream and believing that measurement's important or
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to people not believing that at all. Right, so it's more about how
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do I contact there a people there
at the best book passable and if anything
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else comes from talking to those people, that's great, but the first priority
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was let's write a great book.
Yeah, so now that now that the
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books out, and when did the
book officially release? We were out in
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September. Okay, so we're recording
this in December, so it's just been
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a few months. So since it's
release. Have you seen results from it
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already? Have you seen the results
that you wanted coming from the book being
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out there in the marketplace? I
would say it's had a had a fairly
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good start to begin with, as
you would expect, kind of with the
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noise out there or kind of people
sharing it and things. We've had a
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couple of client engagements on the back
of it, which has been which has
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been great. I think the feedbacks
being really interested in the feedback, maybe
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because, I don't know, I
set the bar too low, or the
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feedbacks been really positive, like people
have said, yeah, no, it's
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really good. I'm using it.
I love some of the kind of the
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humor and the way that you're approaching
data and trying to make it really accessible,
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and that was the goal. What
I'd like to see more of is
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is trying to get it in front
of more people so that more people can
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agree or disagree with the role of
measurement in business. It might not be
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something to everyone, but for those
businesses that want to grow, you know,
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I firmly believe that measurement is the
way to go. It's one of
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many things. It's not the only
thing, but I think in terms of
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where I'd like to see it is
is just try, and it's on me,
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to try and create more awareness,
to get the word out there.
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HMM. So you've already had some
client engagements from it, though, which
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is great, because, I mean
it's just barely been out a few months.
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Have you gone any feedback that was
unexpected or not quite the kind of
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feedback that you were looking for.
Yeah, we had one guy come back
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to us and say, wow,
like it reads like a powerpoint slide deck.
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That a good thing or that's a
really random thing to say? But
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the whole point of writing it was
a we we didn't like everything about it.
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was meant to be not traditional.
So, like the format. It's
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a square format. We wanted it
in color, we wanted it very visual,
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we wanted the language so we don't
use any acronyms throughout the whole book
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because we want to make it accessible. So in a way it's kind of
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like one of these random things that
someone says. It's like, Oh,
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it's and I don't know whether it's
a good Josh. I have no idea
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whether it was a good thing,
but I took it like, for me
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personally, complimentary because I wanted the
whole thing to be visual. I didn't
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want the thing to be pages and
pages of words because I personally can't process
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that myself. So I wanted it
being a site to before that. But
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yet he said it was like a
powerpoint book in paper, which I just
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found a bit amusing. So I
guess that brings up an interesting question,
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which is, are you going to
do an audio book version of this or
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does it just now lend itself to
being an ideal book? That's a great
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shout to it hadn't even crossed my
mind. The the one thing. So,
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bearing in mind this is about digital
data and you know, I would
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just cribe myself as someone that works
in digital and it's to help digital businesses,
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we actually created the book in physical
format because we thought that was the
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best format for it. Weirdly,
I'd say it doesn't lend itself as well
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in a digital format, like in
a digital book like the the double page
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spreads don't lay as well and you
don't get that kind of impactfulness and kind
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of reminder. And not not to
say that you books rubbish, I just
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just as a format. For me, I feel it really heavy invested in
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physical do you know what, if
if I was to create this as a
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as a thing, Josh, and
I'm not going to, because it's going
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to be like a huge amount of
time, effort of money anymore by by
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genuinely think, taking the physical format
and turning it into an APP that's interactive,
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that has video, that has audio
that allows people to use tools and
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sliders and see scenarios and download data
would actually be the way to go,
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rather than taking the the the artifact, and just putting it online and digitizing
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it. So, but audible?
Yeah, I think will or an auditory
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book is very interesting. I don't
know who I'll get to voice it,
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though. I'm really Jackson or someone
like that will be awesome. But yeah,
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it is tricky when you have a
very visual product to transform it to
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the visual sense, because then you
have a chart and you say, well,
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how do we talk about this chart
in such a way to get the
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point across? And maybe it just
doesn't work. Maybe it's just it has
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to be physical. So tell us
a little bit more about the process of
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writing the book. What was the
because, like we've brought up multiple times
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now, you reached out to a
lot of people, you talked a lot
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of people. Can you talk more
about that process, who you reached out
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to, why you reached out to
them and some of the challenges of dealing
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with people when it comes to the
book, because some people are like,
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I'm going to sit down, I'm
going to write a book, it's are
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coming out of my head. And
they write the book and then you,
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and I mean with my CMOS book
that we mentioned before, recording, and
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you with this book. We're doing
interviews, we're talking to a lot of
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people in it's an entirely different dynamic
of collecting content for that book. Yeah,
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so to like to start with,
I started at the like. None
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of it was like a planned,
organized, regimented process. So, and
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I don't treat this as a bad
thing, but I'm dyslexic and add Adhd,
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so I'm all over the place and
my spelling is terrible. But I
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don't see that as a like for
me. I kind of see it as
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my superpower to kind of get stuff
and get my energy going. So,
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weirdly, I started in the middle
writing a glossary because I thought the questions
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I get asked regularly with with clients
is, what does this mean? Why
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is it important? How do I
use it? How does it relate to
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other metrics? How can I use
it to grow my business? So I
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started in the middle and and I
really struggle to write long, long,
305
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long form content, like two or
three thousand words in a word document.
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I just I'm quite visual in how
I work about it, work through it.
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So the mistake I made, and
I'll say it as a mistake,
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I decided to write the whole thing
keynote and I laid out everything in keynote,
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had a left page in the right
page and the process was actually fine.
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But translating keynote into in design is
an absolute like that. So next
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time I'll do it directly in in
design with a preset number of templates,
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with all that kind of heavy lifting
stuff done up front. So I guess
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the way I described, I was
kind of started in, working kind of
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out, like up to the introduction
and down to the conclusion. But I
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did everything in keynote. So I
did all the data, so I did
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all the kind of data analysis and
pits outside, but you know, the
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results, the charting, the presentation
of visualizations or the copy, everything was
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in keener and it allow me to
quickly go are there visually, are there
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too many words on this page?
Like I didn't want a whole page of
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test just as crazy. So I
just wanted it to be short and snappy
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and then have something that's relevant on
the left hand side, whether that's a
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headline, a table, chart and
image of visualization. So yeah, it's
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a little bit. Asked about face. I would say, well, now
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that you're telling me all these details
and understanding the car from the guy about
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why it felt like looking at a
powerpoint presentation, because it was created as
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a presentation to begin with. Yeah, yeah, and that whole idea was,
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you know, I've worked in date
of for a little while and a
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lot of people I have worked with
or interactive with that are not data people
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get switched off by data there,
find it boring or not interesting or whatever.
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So the whole idea was to turn
the kind of subject of data on
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its head and make it visual and
make it designed there to make it more
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interesting, because because you can.
So, yeah, that's probably right by
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that guy. That guy said that. Yeah, so I know that you
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interviewed Brian Solace and some other people. How are you able to get ahold
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of the people that you wanted in
the book and what were some of those
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challenges getting people scheduled? So so. So, do you know what?
337
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Linkedin was an absolute godsend. So
some of the people I knew already,
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but like Josh, we never met
before and the connection on Linkedin. You
339
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were in chrow be kind and kind
of came back straight away. You said,
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how can I help, and then
we scheduled a call and actually,
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if anything, I underestimated the power
of linkedin because I had a ton of
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messages, like you know, it's
probably seventy five to eighty messages, of
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which I wanted to find the right
people and then schedule the call, of
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sort of which not everyone could do, and ended up with, say,
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I think it was about fifteen,
sixteen interviews I ended up doing. But
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I also use linkedin to do some
quantitative data. Three surveys to understand,
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you know, where people are and
how good they are, and a real
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mix, but but predominantly experts in
their field, to see what their challenges
349
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are, because they're all familiar with
the terms and everything else. With regards
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to avanash and Brian and Dave Franklin
and some of the some of the others,
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they were people that I'd either done
a speaking gig before with or I'd
352
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met or I or I've engaged with
on emails. So that was kind of
353
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like really old fashioned and it was
like send them an email and every single
354
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one of them was incredible. Like
avonash particularly was mind blown. Like you
355
00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:15.259
would send them an email said,
oh I haven't Ash I'm writing your book.
356
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I'm thinking about this as Miss I'll, by the way, in your
357
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:22.650
last news letter was reading this and
I thought about this instant take like came
358
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back really quickly. Let me know
what I can do to help. And
359
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then so I said, you know, I'd love it if you could write
360
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the forward. Yeah, yeah,
what do you need? I mean,
361
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I feel really privileged to write it. I'm quite what. I feel privileged
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that you're offering to do it.
So it was really funny and like they
363
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just gave up their time and you
know, they didn't have to do that,
364
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they didn't have to help me,
but they did. So very grateful.
365
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.509
It's interesting that you brought a blind
dinners the talk because for me too,
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with my CMO's book, it was
linked in was that was the thing
367
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that got me the most appointments with
the people that I was trying to interview.
368
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I was trying to interview thirty people
and at first I was trying to
369
00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:03.619
reach out directly, find an email
address, find a phone number, and
370
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I couldn't get past the gatekeepers.
There are these gatekeepers. I mean I'm
371
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trying to get the CMO of GE
so it's like they're like ten levels of
372
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gatekeepers. To get through to this
person. I tried even going to PR
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firms and saying, Hey, you
do pr, I'm trying to get your
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client into my book. Help me
out here like and that worked with a
375
00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:29.450
few. But linked in was where
I got more than fifty percent of the
376
00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:33.000
interviews I got. And I got
CMOS from spotify and target and home depone
377
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Gee and paypal. Look, more
than half of the interviews I got.
378
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It was linked in and it was
just sending a direct message to the person,
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no gatekeeper, immediate response, and
I was just blown away by that.
380
00:27:45.269 --> 00:27:48.109
I just thought I and I'm a
big Linkedin Guy, I just wrote
381
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a book on Linkedin, and still
I was surprised, as I I can't
382
00:27:52.309 --> 00:27:59.339
believe that this is this easy.
I don't know what it calm. I'm
383
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:03.980
pick why all of them? I
think I wasn't selling anything and I wasn't
384
00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:07.859
ask in front of thing other than
someone's time and a genuine I know a
385
00:28:08.019 --> 00:28:12.690
genuinely everyone that's helps being referenced in
the book by the White Way. They
386
00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:18.170
give me permissions. I'M NOT N
we print to people said no, but
387
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:22.890
yeah, I guess, because it's
just a slightly different approach and everyone wants
388
00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:25.930
to help. You know, they're
not being sold to. I wasn't selling
389
00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.160
them and the thing I just genuinely
wanted their input to make the book a
390
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.079
better thing. And the way I
used it. I didn't answer your question
391
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.079
Earlyi I just remember. So the
way I used the interview he's actually wrote
392
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:42.069
the book first and then I when
I spoke to the interviewees, I use
393
00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:48.150
that to validate market trends and I
created a like a whole section in the
394
00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:52.829
book about market trends. So people
are saying this. What what's the measurement
395
00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:57.980
angle on this? What does it
mean? Like, there's a whole load
396
00:28:59.019 --> 00:29:02.579
of topics around googlass. It's for
or ga for everyone's talking about it's in
397
00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:06.259
kind of in vogue a moment,
or attribution or online on more on the
398
00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.019
channel, online to offline. So
lots of people came up with things,
399
00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:12.210
but what was interesting is they were
like four or five topics that were like
400
00:29:12.329 --> 00:29:17.009
super hot that people were talking about
and actually kept coming up. So I
401
00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:21.049
kind of was like like with call
research, right. So I use that
402
00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:23.839
to then actually write a topic.
Right, a whole load of stuff on
403
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:29.039
that particular areas like this is kind
of what the industry experts on the market.
404
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:30.799
That what the market is saying at
the moment. What's in vogue.
405
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.480
You're probably out of date tomorrow,
but that sorts in vogue at the low
406
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.349
that's interesting. And speaking of out
of date, I mean you're reading a
407
00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:44.549
book about did end technology in this
is kind of kept cutting edge staff and
408
00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:49.470
often one of the concerns with writing
a book on technology is by the time
409
00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:53.579
I get this published, is it
going to be owdedd in? So I
410
00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:57.220
assume did you guys self publish or
did you go through a traditional publisher?
411
00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:02.059
We self published, actually it was
it for that reason, just that you
412
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:06.140
could get out faster, or was
that just the easiest or what was your
413
00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:11.690
decision making process and determining whether the
self publish or try to pursue a traditional
414
00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:18.410
publisher? To two reasons, actually, my one, my one of my
415
00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:22.799
business partners, so so, Peter
Abraham, that did a lot of the
416
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:26.160
work and the design layout, has
also written a book for and he had
417
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.279
published and it was kind of twofold. One complete ownership of your product.
418
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.750
You had complete control. Now,
arguably there's less quality assurance going into it
419
00:30:37.789 --> 00:30:41.829
because we're doing although we had a
copywriter and editor that we use to make
420
00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:47.910
sure that the content was good.
So it is complete control of the product.
421
00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:52.140
Was Number One. Number two was
the learnings, because we wanted to
422
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.779
learn about how do you get on
Amazon, how do you publish on Amazon,
423
00:30:55.819 --> 00:30:59.660
how do you sell this direct and
number three, and this is going
424
00:30:59.660 --> 00:31:03.650
to probably sound crazy, but that
you know, we wanted to kind of
425
00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:10.970
promote this thing ourselves, to learn
about how we promote this ourselves. And
426
00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:15.970
the publisher takes such a large share
of the sale that we need to make
427
00:31:17.009 --> 00:31:18.759
a similar amount of money. And
Josh, we know that you don't make
428
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.880
that much poy from books, but
to make a similar amount of money from
429
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.359
the books, we need to sell
like a tenth of what the publisher would
430
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.079
sell. Now you could argue that
the publisher will get you far more reach,
431
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.150
far more brand awareness, and the
impact of that's bigger. One of
432
00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.109
the things I'm looking to do next
out of this after this trial period,
433
00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:41.390
is we've sign up some affiliates and
we're doing kind of old school e commerce,
434
00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:45.869
living that living what we're writing about. We do some paid advertising and
435
00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:51.099
we're thinking about working with a distributor
to see if a distributor can help us
436
00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:56.660
get the book further further field,
into into into shops, etc. So
437
00:31:56.779 --> 00:32:02.170
we've quality controlled the content, we
think, and we've got some fairly good
438
00:32:02.289 --> 00:32:06.890
quotes and names from people to kind
of validate the you know, the content.
439
00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:12.009
And then the print element of it
has been an absolute nightmare, but
440
00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:15.400
we've ended up finding an amazing printer
with had the we've gone through four different
441
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:21.640
printers. Print on demand for the
type of product that we had just didn't
442
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:27.079
work at all. The quality was
terrible. So we finally find found a
443
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.789
good printers to the gun of the
print qualities were really pleased with. That
444
00:32:31.990 --> 00:32:36.910
is tricky. I mean print undermand
is fantastic for the right product, but
445
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:42.029
when you're doing a high quality color
pages type thing like you're doing, it's
446
00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:45.420
tough because the other print undermand you
see the print quality and you're just say
447
00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:51.740
it's doesn't look quite like what we
want. So now you mentioned at the
448
00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:53.339
next book there you're working on.
is going to be the BEDB version of
449
00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:59.529
this. Is the right yeah,
yeah, have you already started on that
450
00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:02.450
or is it just still in the
idea stage? Is still in the ideas
451
00:33:02.490 --> 00:33:09.089
for stage really, but it's really
funny everything about the conduct that color that
452
00:33:09.210 --> 00:33:15.400
direct consumer brand piece. Although the
principles are the same, they're quite different
453
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:21.160
for be to be so the number
of sales you need based on average sale
454
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.240
value is, you know, significant. I don't need as many sales.
455
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:27.269
The amount of rich data. So
we talked about linked in. The data
456
00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:30.710
that's on Linkedin is like hugely rich. There's so much information there from a
457
00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:37.829
pay perspective and from a targeting perspective, but also the complexity of the sale
458
00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:40.900
on the sale cycle is so long
that actually trying to work out customer profitability
459
00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:45.339
or sale profitability is quite hard.
And then you've got the intricacies of lead
460
00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:51.900
scoring and all of these other kind
of business to business marketing techniques that we
461
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.970
think that data does run through that
journey. It's not the O in the
462
00:33:55.009 --> 00:33:59.650
same way as this book. The
other books not all about it's not the
463
00:33:59.769 --> 00:34:01.690
only thing to need know Tho's brand
and there's product of the prices, promotion
464
00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:05.130
as all these other things. But
we think in the kind of that be
465
00:34:05.289 --> 00:34:10.559
tob space there's so data rich that
it's so different from direct to consumer in
466
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.639
every way. Weirdly we think a
large part of its it's less mature,
467
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:21.239
even though the date is richer,
but the maturities less with regards to do
468
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.590
the processes people use and how they
do segmentation and how they do and how
469
00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:28.070
they engage the audience. Could it
could, just because, you know,
470
00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:32.070
e commerce is a pretty well trodden
path and it's pretty you know, you
471
00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:37.820
look at shopify, for example.
I mean that tools awesome in the same
472
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:39.900
way. I mean lots of them
are, but it's awesome. I mean,
473
00:34:40.059 --> 00:34:44.500
you know, they all have ad
to cart and a checkout, standardized
474
00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:47.539
checkout process and plug insto payment providers, and they don't there is a bad
475
00:34:47.619 --> 00:34:51.219
part of the product. I mean
you could, of course you can enhance
476
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:53.889
it, but it's a well trodden
path. Now take that to be to
477
00:34:53.969 --> 00:35:00.610
be and you go how do people
operate in you know, from a lead?
478
00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:02.610
How do people become leads in the
UK, and how's that vary from
479
00:35:02.650 --> 00:35:07.079
the US and how's that vary from
Argentine or Spain or France, and what
480
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.920
type of content works in that market
and how much am I willing to pay
481
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.239
a lead? And where do I
do my lead that position? Do I
482
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.159
do that on linked into? I
DID ONE AD WORDS DO? I do
483
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.000
it direct I buy a list and
all of the sudden you've got all these
484
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:22.710
questions. You like Whoa? So, yeah, that's that's the very long
485
00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:29.909
answer, but that's kind of early
stages. But linkedin's data is just and
486
00:35:30.869 --> 00:35:35.710
sales sources data and hub spot,
a Marquetto and Pardos data is just phenomenal.
487
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:38.780
But they're in silos and none of
it, like from my experience,
488
00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:44.460
it's none of its connected. Yeah, well, we'll be excited to see
489
00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:46.019
their book amount or I have to
have you on the show again once you
490
00:35:46.099 --> 00:35:51.969
get that published. So then for
people who aren't to know more about your
491
00:35:52.449 --> 00:35:54.409
firm and what you do maybe want
to reach out and connect, where's the
492
00:35:54.449 --> 00:35:59.650
best place for them to get Ahold
of you? So if you want to
493
00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:06.440
get hold of me Linkedin, Ben
Salmon might look a little bit like this
494
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.400
my face. If you want to
kind of learn more about the book,
495
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:17.119
you can either search your numbers up
book or you can connect on the website,
496
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:22.710
which is we are crank, but
I'm engaging with a lot of people
497
00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:25.070
on Linkedin with Li like we said, Josh, so I'm kind of connecting
498
00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:30.670
with people directly on there and having
conversations and engaging with people on their rather
499
00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:35.260
than courage just be sill sink.
Promoting the book on just the website kind
500
00:36:35.260 --> 00:36:38.539
of connects with people there perfect well. Thanks been for being on the show
501
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:44.699
today and appreciate everything and Best of
luck with the current book in with getting
502
00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:47.369
the second one underway. Brilliant.
Thank you, Josh. Thanks so much
503
00:36:47.409 --> 00:36:50.849
for having me. I really enjoyed
it, really good. Thank you.
504
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:54.889
If you enjoyed this episode, don't
forget to subscribe and if you want to
505
00:36:54.929 --> 00:36:59.610
spread the word, please give us
a five star rating review and tell your
506
00:36:59.650 --> 00:37:04.960
friends to subscribe to or available on
Apple podcasts, spotify and everywhere else you
507
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.599
listen to podcasts. And if you're
an entrepreneur interested in writing and publishing a
508
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:14.840
nonfiction book to Grow Your Business and
make an impact, visit published authorcom for
509
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.750
show notes for this podcast and other
free resources.
1
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:05.360
Welcome to the published author podcast,
where we help entrepreneurs learn how to write
2
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.990
a book and leverage it to grow
their business and make an impact. I'm
3
00:00:09.029 --> 00:00:14.949
your host, Josh Steinley. Today
my guest is Ben Salmon. Ben Is
4
00:00:14.990 --> 00:00:19.269
the author of your numbers up,
getting a grip on data and measurement to
5
00:00:19.390 --> 00:00:23.980
accelerate your direct to consumer e commerce
sales. It's a bit of a niche,
6
00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:26.859
but that's great and we're going to
talk about why that's such a good
7
00:00:26.859 --> 00:00:30.859
thing. Ben Is highly qualified to
write this book, having held global rolls
8
00:00:30.899 --> 00:00:37.250
with leading marketing technology companies like UNICA, Cordian, smart focus and pittany bows
9
00:00:37.329 --> 00:00:41.850
software, as well as leading the
data charge at big agencies like our APP
10
00:00:42.130 --> 00:00:46.369
and DDB. Now he works directly
with brands that want to take control by
11
00:00:46.409 --> 00:00:50.719
using data to identify where to best
focus efforts to help them grow rapidly.
12
00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:56.240
been works with these brands to bridge
data technology and marketing with commercial and common
13
00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:00.000
sense thinking. been welcome to the
show. Thank you, Jeff. Really
14
00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:06.629
really appreciates it and, full disclosure, I had a tiny hand in helping
15
00:01:06.709 --> 00:01:08.829
book been with his book while he
was writing it, because he was interviewing
16
00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:12.510
a ton of people which will talk
more about how he got this book written
17
00:01:12.549 --> 00:01:17.189
and how he relied on a lot
of people to give input into it.
18
00:01:17.790 --> 00:01:19.500
And so it's fun to be on
this side of things now, because I
19
00:01:19.579 --> 00:01:23.540
saw the book while it was being
written. Now I get to see the
20
00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.500
book on the other side, after
got published, and now we get to
21
00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:30.379
hear the whole story of how it
happened. But then first perhaps can you
22
00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:34.849
take us back a little bit through
your professional career? When did you first
23
00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:38.129
get interested in Beta? How did
you end up getting to this point where
24
00:01:38.129 --> 00:01:45.530
you're writing a book about this topic? So so, first and foremost,
25
00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:49.319
thank you so much for your help
on an interview and time and stuff when
26
00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:55.120
right in the book, because it's
for sure and everyone was was mega.
27
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.950
I'll try do a quick pepper history. So I started off kind of software
28
00:02:02.030 --> 00:02:08.590
side works in in marketing technology space. I did that for a few years
29
00:02:09.789 --> 00:02:15.819
and then I kind of realized very
quickly that it's great having theory about data
30
00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:23.300
and technology, but I haven't actually
ever implemented it whatever worked using the technology.
31
00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:24.740
It sounds sounds ludicrous, doesn't it, but you know, implementing this
32
00:02:24.819 --> 00:02:30.169
technology and never using I've never been
a brand side or agency side. So
33
00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:35.770
I decided to stop selling the dream
and live the dream of guests. To
34
00:02:35.889 --> 00:02:39.330
certain extent I went agency side and
worked, as you said it, with
35
00:02:39.449 --> 00:02:46.319
rap and DDB to really understand the
marketing universe with clients, and then after
36
00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:52.360
a period of they're of getting tired
of kind of doing too much marketing stuff,
37
00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.199
I went back to the kind of
the software technology world and I've been
38
00:02:55.240 --> 00:03:00.669
doing that ever since. I think
the big change is when I first started
39
00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:05.949
off, which is kind of amusing. I can't can't believe it saying this,
40
00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:09.949
but it was kind of like database
marketing life before email marketing, doing
41
00:03:10.069 --> 00:03:15.620
direct mail campaigns and things like that. And then I think as times progressed,
42
00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:22.340
more and more datas coming through digitally, and where I've ended up focusing
43
00:03:22.460 --> 00:03:24.539
is looking at digital data. So
that's, you know, bog landstics,
44
00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:30.810
data, ADDS data, but trying
to try and unpick all of this digital
45
00:03:30.889 --> 00:03:34.169
data, which should make it easy, because it's all the same as a
46
00:03:34.210 --> 00:03:37.490
visits are visits of the session.
A session is a conversions of conversion.
47
00:03:37.569 --> 00:03:39.729
But where you can spend the money
and where you can reach customers is so
48
00:03:39.849 --> 00:03:45.520
much harder than when I did email
campaigns and when I did direct mail campaigns,
49
00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:51.360
because you know they would land in
someone's door up doorstep. And so
50
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.039
when did you get to the point
where you said I've got knowledge in a
51
00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:59.430
need to turn this into a book. So I want to write a book
52
00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:03.990
that covers this topic. So it
was borne out of two things. One,
53
00:04:04.270 --> 00:04:12.060
it was born out of frustration.
So there's tons of awesome books about
54
00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:16.339
technology, marketing technology, all sorts
of like implementation technology. There's there's loads
55
00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:20.500
of staff that's really cool about kind
of how to sell on Amazon. My
56
00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:24.259
Nights, as a shout out,
has done an amazing book on that and
57
00:04:24.329 --> 00:04:29.329
there's like really, really good books
on, you know, go to market
58
00:04:29.449 --> 00:04:31.449
and all sorts of stuff. We've
seen my strateies and stuff. But the
59
00:04:31.569 --> 00:04:35.290
one thing that kept coming back to
me is no one's measuring this stuff.
60
00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:42.360
So you're spending all this money and
and a media agencies telling you how many
61
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.120
clicks you got, like be don't
put that on your annual report. You
62
00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:50.360
put like how much money you made
on your annual report. So the idea
63
00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:56.629
was that was borne out of frustration
and this time kind of last year was
64
00:04:57.230 --> 00:05:02.709
covid chaos. So we started writing
the book and and those. There was
65
00:05:03.189 --> 00:05:08.500
four of us involved, so I
wrote the content, Peter Abraham did all
66
00:05:08.540 --> 00:05:14.660
the typeset and design, Tim Shaw
was technical, technical advisory on having worked
67
00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:18.019
with a googlatics API and Linkedin API
and some of the other other platforms,
68
00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:24.209
and Jess cocklins did all the copywriting
and editing, and I kind of hatch
69
00:05:24.329 --> 00:05:27.569
the idea of maybe we should just
write about this measurement stuff. All these
70
00:05:27.610 --> 00:05:30.810
people keep asking like what does cost
pro acquisition mean? What does bounce rate
71
00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:34.170
mean, what does average order value
mean, and obviously all the acronyms,
72
00:05:34.569 --> 00:05:38.759
Josh, that everyone seems to use
interchangeably and not know what they mean.
73
00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:43.920
So it's like we should put this
in paper to help senior leaders and junior
74
00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.079
teams have have a have a Goto
book that they can read as really a
75
00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:51.430
reference coffee table book that they can
slam on their desks so that they can
76
00:05:53.029 --> 00:05:55.670
go back to it out time and
time again. Around measurement. What does
77
00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:59.509
this mean, and how to how
to grow their business? Quick break here.
78
00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:01.910
Are You an entrepreneur? Do you
want to write a book that will
79
00:06:01.949 --> 00:06:08.060
help you grow your business? Visit
published authorcom where we have programs to fit
80
00:06:08.139 --> 00:06:12.500
every budget programs that will help you
write and publish your book in As little
81
00:06:12.540 --> 00:06:15.620
as ninety days, starting it just
thirty nine dollars per month. Or,
82
00:06:15.860 --> 00:06:18.970
if you're too busy to write your
book, will interview you and then write
83
00:06:19.009 --> 00:06:24.050
and publish your book for You.
Don't let the valuable knowledge and experience you
84
00:06:24.170 --> 00:06:27.889
have go to waste. Head on
over to published authorcom to get the help
85
00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:30.970
you need to become a published author. You've already waited long enough. Do
86
00:06:31.089 --> 00:06:34.480
it today. Now back to the
show. Yeah, and TUK a little
87
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.480
bit more to us about the ideal
audience for this book. Who is the
88
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.920
person who's going to profit the most
from reading and understanding what's in your book?
89
00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.389
Yeah, so it's good show.
I would say that we originally wrote
90
00:06:48.389 --> 00:06:53.269
it just for senior leaders and we
fill actually, we should give this to
91
00:06:53.350 --> 00:06:57.750
senior leaders and you know they'll put
the book and they'll use it. The
92
00:06:58.069 --> 00:07:02.100
the reality is actually it's saying to
the middle manages that all trying to better
93
00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:05.899
articulate the value of digital to that
bosses. And then bosses don't get it
94
00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:11.620
so great, example, but you
walk into the balldroom having a couple of
95
00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:15.850
sage. You're talking about cost proquisition
and then you're looking at maybe sessions to
96
00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:20.050
transaction and while the average would of
value seems to be lower on facebook because
97
00:07:20.050 --> 00:07:26.209
the retopting campaign isn't working. What, right, it's just as an example.
98
00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:29.250
What is all that mean? Yeah, bactly, and it's lots of
99
00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:30.920
the senior laid it leader is saying. Of course the senior leader has to
100
00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:33.879
look good. So, you know, adds his head and he's like Oh,
101
00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.000
yeah, yeah, I got all
that, yeah, no problem,
102
00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:41.639
but in reality he has no clue. Work was just communicated to her exactly.
103
00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.430
I've tried not usally acronyms. I've
just tried to use someone like the
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language that maybe maybe a middle to
see a manager would have presented to the
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board. And the bad again,
like what was it? All the means.
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So it's actually saying, look,
there's probably, you know, two
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hundred metrics you could talk about,
but actually to get your point across you
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need to better articulate the things that
matter. So this is for middle to
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senior managers. This is what you
need to say to when talking to senior
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leaders. Talk about outcomes, not
about clicks, not interesting clicks, outcomes
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like revenue, lifetime customer profit,
repeat, customer order rate and things like
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that, because that's what's driving the
business growth. But also, Josh,
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I think a lot of the craft
or has been lost in our trade around
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measurement. Like when we ran,
I'm showing my age, when we were
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in print campaigns. They were pretty
expensive. So you know, you made
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an error mistake on a large print
run, you had to get things right.
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So you measured lots of stuff like
response right and actually, weirdly,
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the journey was really disconnected. So
actually the idea is to bring some of
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that kind of measurement skill and knowledge
back, but in the digital space.
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So the junior teams are going and
challenging the people that are buying media,
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you know internally, or I medior
agents in going you it's great that you've
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got a clicking rate of two point
four percent. That's fantastic. How many
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sales did I get? And what
I'm by the way, was my cost
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of sale profitable based on my cost
of goods or allowable margin? So that's
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kind of yeah, that target audience
is kind of that middle management that they
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can maybe give it to their senior
leaders, but they're broad up your to
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read it, but help them better
engage with that senior team and then the
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junior team to better understand what they
should be measuring. So why did you
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decide on direct a consumer versus be
to bee or other spaces that you could
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have gone after? So I love
that one. So be to bees next's
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the next time. Get on the
list. Yeah, now, we're not
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the future. Yeah, we can, we can, we can. Claver
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right on that one as well.
So I think directing consumer in the early
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part of kind of the COVID outbreak. It just had this monster explosion huge
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number of brands going direct to consumer. You saw the likes of hers,
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Oreos, Nikely going direct to consumers, lots of you know, lots of
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brands going directing consumer. But it
was just like wow, having worked with
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a couple of different, I would
say traditional brands that gone direct consumer,
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Uni leave a group and wreck it. Benkiser, I was really surprised that
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merchandising and product and product research and
product ranging like and price point analysis,
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they new inside out, but they'd
never directly interacted with a consumer because they'd
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always wholesale their stuff. So actually
I thought, you know what, we
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should try and give them a manual, a book that they can use as
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a reference point. So hence the
direct consumer bit and the ECOMMERCE bit,
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because what I love about ECOMMERCE is
there's revenue at the end. So you
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can argue as much as you want, you can say attribution and all sorts
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of clever words and talk about stuff, at the end of the day,
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if you spent more money than you've
made, that's loss making. So you
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know there is a sale at the
end and if you can see that sale
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or that revenue number at the end, again, profits are we need to
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discuss in a minute. But there's
a revenue number at the end, you
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can absolutely see whether you've been successful, and that's something even a senior manager
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can understand. Yes, absolutely,
one hundred percent, exactly right. So
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what was your vision when you started
working on this book? We already answered
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why you wrote this book who you
wrote it for, but what did you
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want this book to do for you, in for the other people working on
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the book, like, what was
the incentive, because we all know you
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don't really make that much money off
of book sales. So what was your
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angle? What were you trying to
accomplish by putting this book out there?
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Right, so one's once an ambition
really for our sector or our market in
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terms of the marketing universe, and
one is pretty self filling. So the
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kind of ambition was, I want
to see digital revenue as a percentage of
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total revenue or, if you like, ecommerce sales as a percentage of total
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retail sales on every annual report,
so shareholders have complete transparency to see how
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much is being invested in, how
much digital is growing and control contributing to
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the business. So it was really
about getting digital on the annual report.
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It's this kind of sideline or you
get silly things like we've had three hundred
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percent year on your growth, but
if it represents one percent of your business,
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three hundred percent is not good.
So first and foremost it was about
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raising the awareness of a digital revenue
as a percentage of total revenue. But
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dain about you. How would this
benefit you? Are you trying to get
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speaking gigs? Are you trying to
grow consulting engagement's like? What did you
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want the book to do for you
personally? Yeah, yes, a really
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good shout. So, as you
said, you make no money from book
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sales. So what I want to
do is I have a consultancy business and
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I want to work directly with brands
that want to change and grown, and
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the easiest way for me to do
that is to write the book a show
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the kind of the knowledge and expertise, but also connect with brands that also
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have the same ambition. I've really
struggle when that, when the brands are
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like yeah, but digitals not that
really important. I know, I know
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you want to do all this measurement
stuff, but you know what it counts
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for? Like, well, we
don't even know how much of sales it
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accounts for, but it's just kind
of a rounding everything. We don't really
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want it. So I wanted to
use as a way of a reaching these
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brands and engaging with these brands and
be kind of saying that this is my
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philosophy, this is what I'm about. If you're interested, fantastic. That's
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what together. It shortcuts everything.
Like if they don't agree with anything in
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the book, then there's you know, you've already kindly qualified out. So
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they kind of reaching out saying actually, we've got this issue and we really
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want to take measurement seriously is self
fulfilling, right. You know, I
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want to grow the consultancy and side
of the business. Yep, and you
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reach out to a lot of people
as you were writing the book. Recently
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I interviewed a guy here on the
podcast, James Carberry, and he wrote
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a book called content based networking,
which is about using a tool like a
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book to connect with the people you
want to connect with. Because when you're
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writing a book, of course you
can reach out to people and say hey,
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you want to be part of my
book, and then they say yes,
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and now you're developing a relationship with
that person. Who they're going to
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be in the book. They're going
to help you write your book or make
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it better, but also maybe their
potential client or partner something. Did you
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leverage that at all as you were
writing the book? Did you reach out
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to people and say, Hey,
this person not only can help me make
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this book better, but it might
turn into a partnership or a client relationship?
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Yeah, so the short answer is
no. I wasn't looking at people
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as a potential climb. I was
looking at people for who had authority and
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Knowledge in the sector that would help
provide me a more well rounded view.
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Of course, you know, with
people's networks and they kind of that conversation
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that's going on and me chatting to
you now. I've ben't even know,
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as it's six, eight, eight
months later. You know, people have
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been very kind to kind of help
promote the book, but that wasn't the
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sole purpose. And sole purpose was
to get that kind of what well rounded
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view of kind of what's going on
in the market. And I'm I,
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you know, I'm I just living
a dream and believing that measurement's important or
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to people not believing that at all. Right, so it's more about how
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do I contact there a people there
at the best book passable and if anything
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else comes from talking to those people, that's great, but the first priority
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was let's write a great book.
Yeah, so now that now that the
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books out, and when did the
book officially release? We were out in
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September. Okay, so we're recording
this in December, so it's just been
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a few months. So since it's
release. Have you seen results from it
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already? Have you seen the results
that you wanted coming from the book being
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out there in the marketplace? I
would say it's had a had a fairly
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good start to begin with, as
you would expect, kind of with the
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noise out there or kind of people
sharing it and things. We've had a
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couple of client engagements on the back
of it, which has been which has
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been great. I think the feedbacks
being really interested in the feedback, maybe
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because, I don't know, I
set the bar too low, or the
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feedbacks been really positive, like people
have said, yeah, no, it's
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really good. I'm using it.
I love some of the kind of the
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humor and the way that you're approaching
data and trying to make it really accessible,
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and that was the goal. What
I'd like to see more of is
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is trying to get it in front
of more people so that more people can
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agree or disagree with the role of
measurement in business. It might not be
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something to everyone, but for those
businesses that want to grow, you know,
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I firmly believe that measurement is the
way to go. It's one of
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many things. It's not the only
thing, but I think in terms of
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where I'd like to see it is
is just try, and it's on me,
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to try and create more awareness,
to get the word out there.
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HMM. So you've already had some
client engagements from it, though, which
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is great, because, I mean
it's just barely been out a few months.
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Have you gone any feedback that was
unexpected or not quite the kind of
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feedback that you were looking for.
Yeah, we had one guy come back
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to us and say, wow,
like it reads like a powerpoint slide deck.
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That a good thing or that's a
really random thing to say? But
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the whole point of writing it was
a we we didn't like everything about it.
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was meant to be not traditional.
So, like the format. It's
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a square format. We wanted it
in color, we wanted it very visual,
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we wanted the language so we don't
use any acronyms throughout the whole book
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because we want to make it accessible. So in a way it's kind of
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like one of these random things that
someone says. It's like, Oh,
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it's and I don't know whether it's
a good Josh. I have no idea
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whether it was a good thing,
but I took it like, for me
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personally, complimentary because I wanted the
whole thing to be visual. I didn't
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want the thing to be pages and
pages of words because I personally can't process
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that myself. So I wanted it
being a site to before that. But
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yet he said it was like a
powerpoint book in paper, which I just
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found a bit amusing. So I
guess that brings up an interesting question,
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which is, are you going to
do an audio book version of this or
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does it just now lend itself to
being an ideal book? That's a great
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shout to it hadn't even crossed my
mind. The the one thing. So,
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bearing in mind this is about digital
data and you know, I would
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just cribe myself as someone that works
in digital and it's to help digital businesses,
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we actually created the book in physical
format because we thought that was the
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best format for it. Weirdly,
I'd say it doesn't lend itself as well
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in a digital format, like in
a digital book like the the double page
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spreads don't lay as well and you
don't get that kind of impactfulness and kind
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of reminder. And not not to
say that you books rubbish, I just
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just as a format. For me, I feel it really heavy invested in
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physical do you know what, if
if I was to create this as a
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as a thing, Josh, and
I'm not going to, because it's going
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to be like a huge amount of
time, effort of money anymore by by
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genuinely think, taking the physical format
and turning it into an APP that's interactive,
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that has video, that has audio
that allows people to use tools and
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sliders and see scenarios and download data
would actually be the way to go,
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rather than taking the the the artifact, and just putting it online and digitizing
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it. So, but audible?
Yeah, I think will or an auditory
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book is very interesting. I don't
know who I'll get to voice it,
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though. I'm really Jackson or someone
like that will be awesome. But yeah,
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it is tricky when you have a
very visual product to transform it to
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the visual sense, because then you
have a chart and you say, well,
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how do we talk about this chart
in such a way to get the
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point across? And maybe it just
doesn't work. Maybe it's just it has
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to be physical. So tell us
a little bit more about the process of
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writing the book. What was the
because, like we've brought up multiple times
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now, you reached out to a
lot of people, you talked a lot
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of people. Can you talk more
about that process, who you reached out
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to, why you reached out to
them and some of the challenges of dealing
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with people when it comes to the
book, because some people are like,
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I'm going to sit down, I'm
going to write a book, it's are
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coming out of my head. And
they write the book and then you,
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and I mean with my CMOS book
that we mentioned before, recording, and
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you with this book. We're doing
interviews, we're talking to a lot of
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people in it's an entirely different dynamic
of collecting content for that book. Yeah,
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so to like to start with,
I started at the like. None
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of it was like a planned,
organized, regimented process. So, and
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I don't treat this as a bad
thing, but I'm dyslexic and add Adhd,
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so I'm all over the place and
my spelling is terrible. But I
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don't see that as a like for
me. I kind of see it as
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my superpower to kind of get stuff
and get my energy going. So,
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weirdly, I started in the middle
writing a glossary because I thought the questions
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I get asked regularly with with clients
is, what does this mean? Why
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is it important? How do I
use it? How does it relate to
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other metrics? How can I use
it to grow my business? So I
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started in the middle and and I
really struggle to write long, long,
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long form content, like two or
three thousand words in a word document.
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I just I'm quite visual in how
I work about it, work through it.
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So the mistake I made, and
I'll say it as a mistake,
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00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:42.210
I decided to write the whole thing
keynote and I laid out everything in keynote,
309
00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:47.400
had a left page in the right
page and the process was actually fine.
310
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:53.119
But translating keynote into in design is
an absolute like that. So next
311
00:22:53.160 --> 00:23:00.630
time I'll do it directly in in
design with a preset number of templates,
312
00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:04.829
with all that kind of heavy lifting
stuff done up front. So I guess
313
00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:08.269
the way I described, I was
kind of started in, working kind of
314
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out, like up to the introduction
and down to the conclusion. But I
315
00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:17.900
did everything in keynote. So I
did all the data, so I did
316
00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:19.500
all the kind of data analysis and
pits outside, but you know, the
317
00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:26.380
results, the charting, the presentation
of visualizations or the copy, everything was
318
00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:30.890
in keener and it allow me to
quickly go are there visually, are there
319
00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:33.609
too many words on this page?
Like I didn't want a whole page of
320
00:23:33.650 --> 00:23:37.650
test just as crazy. So I
just wanted it to be short and snappy
321
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and then have something that's relevant on
the left hand side, whether that's a
322
00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:45.920
headline, a table, chart and
image of visualization. So yeah, it's
323
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.039
a little bit. Asked about face. I would say, well, now
324
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that you're telling me all these details
and understanding the car from the guy about
325
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.430
why it felt like looking at a
powerpoint presentation, because it was created as
326
00:23:57.470 --> 00:24:03.150
a presentation to begin with. Yeah, yeah, and that whole idea was,
327
00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:07.509
you know, I've worked in date
of for a little while and a
328
00:24:07.589 --> 00:24:11.539
lot of people I have worked with
or interactive with that are not data people
329
00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:17.259
get switched off by data there,
find it boring or not interesting or whatever.
330
00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:19.940
So the whole idea was to turn
the kind of subject of data on
331
00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:22.779
its head and make it visual and
make it designed there to make it more
332
00:24:22.859 --> 00:24:30.089
interesting, because because you can.
So, yeah, that's probably right by
333
00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:33.049
that guy. That guy said that. Yeah, so I know that you
334
00:24:33.170 --> 00:24:37.329
interviewed Brian Solace and some other people. How are you able to get ahold
335
00:24:37.369 --> 00:24:41.480
of the people that you wanted in
the book and what were some of those
336
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.279
challenges getting people scheduled? So so. So, do you know what?
337
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.190
Linkedin was an absolute godsend. So
some of the people I knew already,
338
00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:57.990
but like Josh, we never met
before and the connection on Linkedin. You
339
00:24:59.710 --> 00:25:02.750
were in chrow be kind and kind
of came back straight away. You said,
340
00:25:02.789 --> 00:25:04.230
how can I help, and then
we scheduled a call and actually,
341
00:25:06.829 --> 00:25:11.420
if anything, I underestimated the power
of linkedin because I had a ton of
342
00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:17.299
messages, like you know, it's
probably seventy five to eighty messages, of
343
00:25:17.380 --> 00:25:21.099
which I wanted to find the right
people and then schedule the call, of
344
00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:23.049
sort of which not everyone could do, and ended up with, say,
345
00:25:23.569 --> 00:25:27.130
I think it was about fifteen,
sixteen interviews I ended up doing. But
346
00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:34.329
I also use linkedin to do some
quantitative data. Three surveys to understand,
347
00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:37.200
you know, where people are and
how good they are, and a real
348
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.200
mix, but but predominantly experts in
their field, to see what their challenges
349
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:47.799
are, because they're all familiar with
the terms and everything else. With regards
350
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:53.750
to avanash and Brian and Dave Franklin
and some of the some of the others,
351
00:25:55.509 --> 00:26:00.349
they were people that I'd either done
a speaking gig before with or I'd
352
00:26:00.390 --> 00:26:03.109
met or I or I've engaged with
on emails. So that was kind of
353
00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:07.940
like really old fashioned and it was
like send them an email and every single
354
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:12.539
one of them was incredible. Like
avonash particularly was mind blown. Like you
355
00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:15.259
would send them an email said,
oh I haven't Ash I'm writing your book.
356
00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:18.500
I'm thinking about this as Miss I'll, by the way, in your
357
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:22.650
last news letter was reading this and
I thought about this instant take like came
358
00:26:22.730 --> 00:26:25.250
back really quickly. Let me know
what I can do to help. And
359
00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:26.730
then so I said, you know, I'd love it if you could write
360
00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:30.329
the forward. Yeah, yeah,
what do you need? I mean,
361
00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:33.519
I feel really privileged to write it. I'm quite what. I feel privileged
362
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.519
that you're offering to do it.
So it was really funny and like they
363
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.319
just gave up their time and you
know, they didn't have to do that,
364
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:42.519
they didn't have to help me,
but they did. So very grateful.
365
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.509
It's interesting that you brought a blind
dinners the talk because for me too,
366
00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:52.309
with my CMO's book, it was
linked in was that was the thing
367
00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:56.150
that got me the most appointments with
the people that I was trying to interview.
368
00:26:56.589 --> 00:27:00.990
I was trying to interview thirty people
and at first I was trying to
369
00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:03.619
reach out directly, find an email
address, find a phone number, and
370
00:27:03.700 --> 00:27:07.099
I couldn't get past the gatekeepers.
There are these gatekeepers. I mean I'm
371
00:27:07.099 --> 00:27:11.660
trying to get the CMO of GE
so it's like they're like ten levels of
372
00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:15.730
gatekeepers. To get through to this
person. I tried even going to PR
373
00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:21.049
firms and saying, Hey, you
do pr, I'm trying to get your
374
00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:25.130
client into my book. Help me
out here like and that worked with a
375
00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:29.450
few. But linked in was where
I got more than fifty percent of the
376
00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:33.000
interviews I got. And I got
CMOS from spotify and target and home depone
377
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.599
Gee and paypal. Look, more
than half of the interviews I got.
378
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.960
It was linked in and it was
just sending a direct message to the person,
379
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.190
no gatekeeper, immediate response, and
I was just blown away by that.
380
00:27:45.269 --> 00:27:48.109
I just thought I and I'm a
big Linkedin Guy, I just wrote
381
00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:52.269
a book on Linkedin, and still
I was surprised, as I I can't
382
00:27:52.309 --> 00:27:59.339
believe that this is this easy.
I don't know what it calm. I'm
383
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:03.980
pick why all of them? I
think I wasn't selling anything and I wasn't
384
00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:07.859
ask in front of thing other than
someone's time and a genuine I know a
385
00:28:08.019 --> 00:28:12.690
genuinely everyone that's helps being referenced in
the book by the White Way. They
386
00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:18.170
give me permissions. I'M NOT N
we print to people said no, but
387
00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:22.890
yeah, I guess, because it's
just a slightly different approach and everyone wants
388
00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:25.930
to help. You know, they're
not being sold to. I wasn't selling
389
00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.160
them and the thing I just genuinely
wanted their input to make the book a
390
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.079
better thing. And the way I
used it. I didn't answer your question
391
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.079
Earlyi I just remember. So the
way I used the interview he's actually wrote
392
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:42.069
the book first and then I when
I spoke to the interviewees, I use
393
00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:48.150
that to validate market trends and I
created a like a whole section in the
394
00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:52.829
book about market trends. So people
are saying this. What what's the measurement
395
00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:57.980
angle on this? What does it
mean? Like, there's a whole load
396
00:28:59.019 --> 00:29:02.579
of topics around googlass. It's for
or ga for everyone's talking about it's in
397
00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:06.259
kind of in vogue a moment,
or attribution or online on more on the
398
00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.019
channel, online to offline. So
lots of people came up with things,
399
00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:12.210
but what was interesting is they were
like four or five topics that were like
400
00:29:12.329 --> 00:29:17.009
super hot that people were talking about
and actually kept coming up. So I
401
00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:21.049
kind of was like like with call
research, right. So I use that
402
00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:23.839
to then actually write a topic.
Right, a whole load of stuff on
403
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:29.039
that particular areas like this is kind
of what the industry experts on the market.
404
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:30.799
That what the market is saying at
the moment. What's in vogue.
405
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.480
You're probably out of date tomorrow,
but that sorts in vogue at the low
406
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.349
that's interesting. And speaking of out
of date, I mean you're reading a
407
00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:44.549
book about did end technology in this
is kind of kept cutting edge staff and
408
00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:49.470
often one of the concerns with writing
a book on technology is by the time
409
00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:53.579
I get this published, is it
going to be owdedd in? So I
410
00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:57.220
assume did you guys self publish or
did you go through a traditional publisher?
411
00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:02.059
We self published, actually it was
it for that reason, just that you
412
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:06.140
could get out faster, or was
that just the easiest or what was your
413
00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:11.690
decision making process and determining whether the
self publish or try to pursue a traditional
414
00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:18.410
publisher? To two reasons, actually, my one, my one of my
415
00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:22.799
business partners, so so, Peter
Abraham, that did a lot of the
416
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:26.160
work and the design layout, has
also written a book for and he had
417
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.279
published and it was kind of twofold. One complete ownership of your product.
418
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.750
You had complete control. Now,
arguably there's less quality assurance going into it
419
00:30:37.789 --> 00:30:41.829
because we're doing although we had a
copywriter and editor that we use to make
420
00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:47.910
sure that the content was good.
So it is complete control of the product.
421
00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:52.140
Was Number One. Number two was
the learnings, because we wanted to
422
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.779
learn about how do you get on
Amazon, how do you publish on Amazon,
423
00:30:55.819 --> 00:30:59.660
how do you sell this direct and
number three, and this is going
424
00:30:59.660 --> 00:31:03.650
to probably sound crazy, but that
you know, we wanted to kind of
425
00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:10.970
promote this thing ourselves, to learn
about how we promote this ourselves. And
426
00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:15.970
the publisher takes such a large share
of the sale that we need to make
427
00:31:17.009 --> 00:31:18.759
a similar amount of money. And
Josh, we know that you don't make
428
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.880
that much poy from books, but
to make a similar amount of money from
429
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.359
the books, we need to sell
like a tenth of what the publisher would
430
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.079
sell. Now you could argue that
the publisher will get you far more reach,
431
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.150
far more brand awareness, and the
impact of that's bigger. One of
432
00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.109
the things I'm looking to do next
out of this after this trial period,
433
00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:41.390
is we've sign up some affiliates and
we're doing kind of old school e commerce,
434
00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:45.869
living that living what we're writing about. We do some paid advertising and
435
00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:51.099
we're thinking about working with a distributor
to see if a distributor can help us
436
00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:56.660
get the book further further field,
into into into shops, etc. So
437
00:31:56.779 --> 00:32:02.170
we've quality controlled the content, we
think, and we've got some fairly good
438
00:32:02.289 --> 00:32:06.890
quotes and names from people to kind
of validate the you know, the content.
439
00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:12.009
And then the print element of it
has been an absolute nightmare, but
440
00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:15.400
we've ended up finding an amazing printer
with had the we've gone through four different
441
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:21.640
printers. Print on demand for the
type of product that we had just didn't
442
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:27.079
work at all. The quality was
terrible. So we finally find found a
443
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:31.789
good printers to the gun of the
print qualities were really pleased with. That
444
00:32:31.990 --> 00:32:36.910
is tricky. I mean print undermand
is fantastic for the right product, but
445
00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:42.029
when you're doing a high quality color
pages type thing like you're doing, it's
446
00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:45.420
tough because the other print undermand you
see the print quality and you're just say
447
00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:51.740
it's doesn't look quite like what we
want. So now you mentioned at the
448
00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:53.339
next book there you're working on.
is going to be the BEDB version of
449
00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:59.529
this. Is the right yeah,
yeah, have you already started on that
450
00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:02.450
or is it just still in the
idea stage? Is still in the ideas
451
00:33:02.490 --> 00:33:09.089
for stage really, but it's really
funny everything about the conduct that color that
452
00:33:09.210 --> 00:33:15.400
direct consumer brand piece. Although the
principles are the same, they're quite different
453
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:21.160
for be to be so the number
of sales you need based on average sale
454
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.240
value is, you know, significant. I don't need as many sales.
455
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:27.269
The amount of rich data. So
we talked about linked in. The data
456
00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:30.710
that's on Linkedin is like hugely rich. There's so much information there from a
457
00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:37.829
pay perspective and from a targeting perspective, but also the complexity of the sale
458
00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:40.900
on the sale cycle is so long
that actually trying to work out customer profitability
459
00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:45.339
or sale profitability is quite hard.
And then you've got the intricacies of lead
460
00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:51.900
scoring and all of these other kind
of business to business marketing techniques that we
461
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.970
think that data does run through that
journey. It's not the O in the
462
00:33:55.009 --> 00:33:59.650
same way as this book. The
other books not all about it's not the
463
00:33:59.769 --> 00:34:01.690
only thing to need know Tho's brand
and there's product of the prices, promotion
464
00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:05.130
as all these other things. But
we think in the kind of that be
465
00:34:05.289 --> 00:34:10.559
tob space there's so data rich that
it's so different from direct to consumer in
466
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.639
every way. Weirdly we think a
large part of its it's less mature,
467
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:21.239
even though the date is richer,
but the maturities less with regards to do
468
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.590
the processes people use and how they
do segmentation and how they do and how
469
00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:28.070
they engage the audience. Could it
could, just because, you know,
470
00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:32.070
e commerce is a pretty well trodden
path and it's pretty you know, you
471
00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:37.820
look at shopify, for example.
I mean that tools awesome in the same
472
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:39.900
way. I mean lots of them
are, but it's awesome. I mean,
473
00:34:40.059 --> 00:34:44.500
you know, they all have ad
to cart and a checkout, standardized
474
00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:47.539
checkout process and plug insto payment providers, and they don't there is a bad
475
00:34:47.619 --> 00:34:51.219
part of the product. I mean
you could, of course you can enhance
476
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:53.889
it, but it's a well trodden
path. Now take that to be to
477
00:34:53.969 --> 00:35:00.610
be and you go how do people
operate in you know, from a lead?
478
00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:02.610
How do people become leads in the
UK, and how's that vary from
479
00:35:02.650 --> 00:35:07.079
the US and how's that vary from
Argentine or Spain or France, and what
480
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.920
type of content works in that market
and how much am I willing to pay
481
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.239
a lead? And where do I
do my lead that position? Do I
482
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.159
do that on linked into? I
DID ONE AD WORDS DO? I do
483
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.000
it direct I buy a list and
all of the sudden you've got all these
484
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:22.710
questions. You like Whoa? So, yeah, that's that's the very long
485
00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:29.909
answer, but that's kind of early
stages. But linkedin's data is just and
486
00:35:30.869 --> 00:35:35.710
sales sources data and hub spot,
a Marquetto and Pardos data is just phenomenal.
487
00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:38.780
But they're in silos and none of
it, like from my experience,
488
00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:44.460
it's none of its connected. Yeah, well, we'll be excited to see
489
00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:46.019
their book amount or I have to
have you on the show again once you
490
00:35:46.099 --> 00:35:51.969
get that published. So then for
people who aren't to know more about your
491
00:35:52.449 --> 00:35:54.409
firm and what you do maybe want
to reach out and connect, where's the
492
00:35:54.449 --> 00:35:59.650
best place for them to get Ahold
of you? So if you want to
493
00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:06.440
get hold of me Linkedin, Ben
Salmon might look a little bit like this
494
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.400
my face. If you want to
kind of learn more about the book,
495
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:17.119
you can either search your numbers up
book or you can connect on the website,
496
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:22.710
which is we are crank, but
I'm engaging with a lot of people
497
00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:25.070
on Linkedin with Li like we said, Josh, so I'm kind of connecting
498
00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:30.670
with people directly on there and having
conversations and engaging with people on their rather
499
00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:35.260
than courage just be sill sink.
Promoting the book on just the website kind
500
00:36:35.260 --> 00:36:38.539
of connects with people there perfect well. Thanks been for being on the show
501
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:44.699
today and appreciate everything and Best of
luck with the current book in with getting
502
00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:47.369
the second one underway. Brilliant.
Thank you, Josh. Thanks so much
503
00:36:47.409 --> 00:36:50.849
for having me. I really enjoyed
it, really good. Thank you.
504
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:54.889
If you enjoyed this episode, don't
forget to subscribe and if you want to
505
00:36:54.929 --> 00:36:59.610
spread the word, please give us
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506
00:36:59.650 --> 00:37:04.960
friends to subscribe to or available on
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507
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.599
listen to podcasts. And if you're
an entrepreneur interested in writing and publishing a
508
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:14.840
nonfiction book to Grow Your Business and
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509
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.750
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