Pods Fight Poverty: What Really Happens When You Just Give People Money?

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:12.820
[on-hold music] Hey, friends. Before we get rolling today, I want to talk about something big. Change the actual world big.
2
00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:25.640
Because the world won't un-fuck itself, as we all know, we are joining podcasts across the planet for Pods Fight Poverty, a campaign directly supporting our good friends at GiveDirectly.
3
00:00:26.300 --> 00:00:36.280
Now, if you've been with us since episode one-sixteen, which feels like a thousand years ago, you'll remember when we asked one of the most deceptively simple world-altering questions ever.
4
00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:44.700
Why is just giving people money the most effective way to help them change their lives and maybe even end global poverty altogether?
5
00:00:45.460 --> 00:00:57.449
To crack that open, I had Caroline Teti and Michael Fey on the show, two people who've spent years with GiveDirectly, knee-deep in data and logistics and lived experience, my favorite combination of things.
6
00:00:57.480 --> 00:01:08.240
And guess what? The answer turned out to be the thing your gut probably already knows listening to this. People are the experts on their own lives. You are, so why aren't they?
7
00:01:08.300 --> 00:01:19.390
Different people need different things on different days. So if you want them to get exactly what they need, you give them the resources to choose, cash directly, and that's what GiveDirectly does.
8
00:01:19.860 --> 00:01:32.000
No middlemen, no guessing, just trusting other humans with the dignity and agency we would expect and that they deserve. You have wild idea, it works. It works better than almost anything else we've tried.
9
00:01:32.740 --> 00:01:45.360
So here's the part where you come in. None of us can erase global poverty by ourselves. Again, that's our whole tagline. But literally any one of us can lift one person out of poverty, like today, right now.
10
00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:55.580
So for Pods Fight Poverty, if you can, head to givedirectly.org/important and chip in. That's givedirectly.org/important.
11
00:01:56.080 --> 00:02:08.100
And look, to take it even further, my wife and I already personally contribute to GiveDirectly every year, every month actually, which is the best way to support a group like this, by the way, and thousands of you all do too.
12
00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:19.240
But I'm gonna step it up and I will personally match the next five thousand dollars in donations when you use our link, which again is givedirectly.org/important. So let's do it.
13
00:02:19.880 --> 00:02:30.160
And to get you in the spirit, we're gonna revisit our conversation right now with Teti and Michael. It's funny, it's hopeful, it's deeply nerdy, and it'll remind you why this work matters every single day.
14
00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:33.380
So let's do it. Thanks as always for giving a shit.
15
00:02:35.380 --> 00:02:48.640
[on-hold music] Welcome to Important Not Important.
16
00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:58.910
My name is Quinn Emmett, and this is science for people who give a shit. We give you the tools you need to feel better and to fight for a better future for everyone.
17
00:02:59.269 --> 00:03:10.480
The context about a specific issue facing everybody right now, straight from the smartest, most effective people on Earth, and the action steps you can take to get involved and to support them.
18
00:03:10.540 --> 00:03:23.160
Our guests are NGO directors, scientists, doctors, nurses, journalists, engineers, activists, farmers, CEOs. We even had a reverend once. This is your friendly reminder.
19
00:03:23.200 --> 00:03:31.480
You can send questions, thoughts, and feedback to us on Twitter at important.imp, or you can email us at questions@importantnotimportant.com.
20
00:03:32.040 --> 00:03:40.440
Second, you can also join tens of thousands of other smart folks and subscribe to our free weekly newsletter at importantnotimportant.com.
21
00:03:40.860 --> 00:03:50.060
That is all of the most important science news of the week, how we can help you think about it, and what you can do about it, of course. Third, new thing out there, very exciting.
22
00:03:50.420 --> 00:04:11.700
If you are interested in working directly on the front lines of the future, doing something impactful every day in ranging from clean energy production or installation to maternal health or mental health or antibiotics work or carbon removal or any, any of these things, electric vehicles.
23
00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:25.860
You can now head to importantjobs.com, where I'm very proud to say we've got an incredible number and selection of curated companies and organizations that are doing that work and their best roles for you guys to find.
24
00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:35.480
And, and for those of you who are listening, if you're looking to hire some incredible human to, to bolster your team, to take you to the next level.
25
00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:52.060
If you're a legacy company that needs to hire a sustainability manager for the first time or measure your carbon footprint or someone who's skilled in working with sustainable consumer goods, whatever it might be, battery technology, there is no better community than you could get in front of than our shit givers here.
26
00:04:52.120 --> 00:05:04.580
And jobs are not only posted on the board, we feature the feature jobs in our newsletter every week, and we also share them on social media where they get a ton of incredible impressions, and we've had some really awesome stories so far.
27
00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:17.820
So again, that's at importantjobs.com. Folks, this week's episode, boy, is it... It's simple, but it's also really profound, and it asks why we should just be giving people money,
28
00:05:18.740 --> 00:05:27.160
why it's the single most effective way to help people change their own lives and to also erase global poverty along the way.
29
00:05:27.700 --> 00:05:39.360
Our guests are Caroline Teti and Michael Fey from GiveDirectly, and I'm very excited for you to hear their story and find out how you can get involved and contribute as well. Let's go.
30
00:05:39.400 --> 00:05:57.060
[reverberating sound] My guests today are Caroline Teti and Michael Fey, and together I want to know why we should just be giving people money. Caroline Teti and Michael, welcome. Thank you. Thanks so much, Quinn.
31
00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:07.848
Absolutely. Michael, I'm so-- You just really endeavored to make this happen there in the end. I, I sincerely appreciate the obstacles you've overcome today.I, I figured out how to work the computer. [laughs] Step one.
32
00:06:08.608 --> 00:06:20.168
Uh, Teti, as y- you did request that we refer to you, and, and Michael, could you just tell us real quick who you guys are and what you do? Yep. I can go first. So my name is Caroline Teti.
33
00:06:20.468 --> 00:06:31.548
I'm here in Kenya, Nairobi, and I work for GiveDirectly. Today is actually... I'm actually marking the fifth year since I was hired here. Wow. Yeah.
34
00:06:31.688 --> 00:06:51.308
My role is recipients' advocacy for our global operations, and what that means is monitoring, safeguarding, and risks associated with the cash that we're delivering to beneficiaries, and also being a representative and a voice for our beneficiaries in whatever way that I can, and this work has never been more exciting.
35
00:06:51.928 --> 00:07:04.628
Sure. I imagine. Michael, how can you measure up to that? Oh, I can't. I'm, I'm just a- [laughs]... I'm just a recovering PhD who had the incredibly creative idea of giving people money to make them less poor. Sure.
36
00:07:04.668 --> 00:07:15.628
I'm the co-founder and president of GiveDirectly, and have spent the last two years building organizations that help move money to those in most need. Awesome. I love it. Well, thank you guys for sharing.
37
00:07:15.688 --> 00:07:28.508
I'm, I'm very excited to dig into the how of what you do and the why of what you do and, and again, why it matters. So we do like to start with one vital question to set the tone for, for this conversation.
38
00:07:28.648 --> 00:07:43.048
It is, we feel like it's explanatory, it's, it's helpful, telling, but we'd like to ask each of you, if you don't mind, instead of saying tell us your entire life story, if you could answer why are you vital to the survival of the species?
39
00:07:43.628 --> 00:07:51.228
And I encourage you to be bold, and believe me, most people start with laughter. I'm gonna start with Teti. [laughs] You're up, Teti.
40
00:07:51.288 --> 00:07:56.488
Yeah, like, Quinn, that's, that, that's, that's not an easy question because you know what? The world is a great...
41
00:07:56.688 --> 00:08:04.948
It's a huge place to be in and, you know, to imagine that you are that person who can create the change that the world is looking for is such a big calling.
42
00:08:05.408 --> 00:08:21.768
However, I believe I fit in that little knob where o- one human being is required to create change in the world today because I have a past that has experienced the life of some of the people that we are giving cash today.
43
00:08:21.988 --> 00:08:26.158
I have enjoyed the privilege of getting out of that situation,
44
00:08:27.188 --> 00:08:49.288
and I have had also the opportunity to be able to interact with the world in different ways in which I feel like, you know, is, is something that I can share with the world, whether that is in terms of information, empowering them, and facilitating the process of creating change and where we are today in delivering cash to people living in poverty.
45
00:08:49.968 --> 00:08:57.968
That's so wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Michael, once again, good luck. [laughs] I've, I've, I've lost this game.
46
00:08:58.208 --> 00:09:11.508
[laughs] I, I would say we, we live in a world with enough resources for everyone to meet their basic needs, and yet we also live in a world where a billion people can't do that and live in extreme poverty.
47
00:09:12.188 --> 00:09:14.848
And extreme poverty is extreme. Mm-hmm.
48
00:09:14.928 --> 00:09:25.528
It's people living on the equivalent or less than $1.90 a day, which if you take a second to think about, i- is almost impossible to imagine, certainly for those of us on this call.
49
00:09:26.148 --> 00:09:37.888
So we live in a world with those resources, and yet such poverty exists. We're helping at some level, at its most basic level, fix that, and we're just playing a small role.
50
00:09:37.928 --> 00:09:52.348
We're just really a vehicle for people that want to transfer some resources to others to get them above the poverty line to do so. And what I say is giving shouldn't come from guilt.
51
00:09:52.968 --> 00:10:03.408
Like, it's actually a remarkable opportunity to think about it. You can give another human a dollar a day, which used to be the price of a cup of coffee, now it's like a sip of your cup of coffee,
52
00:10:04.928 --> 00:10:08.388
and take that person above- Mm-hmm... the poverty line, just purely mechanically.
53
00:10:08.428 --> 00:10:19.068
If you give them a dollar and they have a dollar, they're now at two dollars, they're out of poverty, and I think that's transformative for each life. And as a generation and as a planet, why not take the step?
54
00:10:19.168 --> 00:10:21.647
Why not take the gamble of trying to end it?
55
00:10:22.348 --> 00:10:31.288
Yeah, and you know, Michael, that is, that is something that is really, really powerful that, you know, as I grew up, I didn't have any idea of there is so much wealth out in the world.
56
00:10:31.728 --> 00:11:04.608
And, you know, it's really been humbling for me interacting and seeing the reality of how wealth redistribution can have such a huge impact on people's lives, and just having, you know, an opportunity to see how the common resources, the, the, the, the, like, you know, natural resources that have been extracted and all the work that lots of people have done have generated so much wealth, yet we still have so many people living in abject poverty, poverty that sometimes, you know, you cannot explain.
57
00:11:04.658 --> 00:11:14.908
Like, I have seen a woman cooking stones for her children. Really? And, and you wonder, like, doesn't somebody just have $10 to enable her to get food to the table for her children?
58
00:11:15.408 --> 00:11:21.907
Well, Te- Teti, it, it reminds me of a, of a story. You say you didn't realize how much wealth there was, and you probably know this story.
59
00:11:22.348 --> 00:11:32.208
This was in a slum in Nairobi, I think we were together, and one of the recipients came up to me and he says, "You know, you've really changed my view of life." I said, "Oh, tell me."
60
00:11:33.268 --> 00:11:43.448
And he said, "For, for decades and decades, NGOs have been coming and giving us stuff, and they'll give us soap, and they'll give us this small thing. And you know, it was helpful,
61
00:11:44.448 --> 00:11:57.208
but it wasn't much, and I just figured they didn't have that much money, these NGOs. And now you come and you give us all this money, and I think to myself, 'Why isn't everyone giving us money?'"
62
00:11:57.268 --> 00:12:09.088
So now every time an NGO comes- Gives us money... that group of people [laughs] says, "Well, why don't you just give us the money? We'll buy it. We, we can buy soap here. We'll be okay." Wow. How true. That's amazing.
63
00:12:09.098 --> 00:12:19.828
How true. It seem, it seems so fundamental and so, and, and so basic, and yet it seems like it, it, it hasn't been so far. And I, and I, I wanna get into that stuff, so thank you both for, for sharing that.
64
00:12:19.908 --> 00:12:27.684
I, I appreciate it. Here's why I wanted to-Have this conversation today and, and where I hope we will, we can go with it.
65
00:12:27.744 --> 00:12:32.844
And of course, there's entirely possible we go off in 40 different directions, which I'm always game to do.
66
00:12:33.444 --> 00:12:48.284
So at least in, especially in the, the Western world, on the global north, there's been a fair amount of dark humor joking, at least since Trump was elected in, in, in 2016, that, you know, "This, this year is the worst.
67
00:12:48.364 --> 00:12:59.404
We can't wait to be done with, with this year," right? And then two years later, we all look back on fondly on 2017 or 2018 because at least there wasn't a pandemic in that year, right? It's all about perspective.
68
00:12:59.444 --> 00:13:01.834
But- Mm... you don't have to be a,
69
00:13:02.984 --> 00:13:19.464
you know, a Steven Pinker completist to, to understand even very broadly, right, superficially, that, that life has generally improved in the past quarter century on this only known habitable planet in, in the galaxy.
70
00:13:19.804 --> 00:13:27.844
But we definitely still have a long way to go, and we've also got this ticking clock that we've [chuckles] never really had before, right?
71
00:13:28.184 --> 00:13:38.164
So we have these big systemic problems, these global problems with these intensely local and varied ramifications, but we have made progress, right?
72
00:13:38.264 --> 00:13:47.444
So I was looking through one of my favorite websites, Our World in Data. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with that organization out of Oxford. They, they do a fantastic job.
73
00:13:47.784 --> 00:13:59.284
It's just, it's basically data for making progress. And they talked about how, you know, 300,000 women die from pregnancy-related causes- Mm... but that's declined from, from half a million.
74
00:13:59.684 --> 00:14:13.084
And the share living in extreme poverty is, is 10% globally, but that's down from 21%. And the number of primary school-age kids not in school, I believe, is 60 million, but that's down from 110 million.
75
00:14:13.124 --> 00:14:22.684
And then looking at things like malaria, it's like almost 4% of all kids die before they're five years old, but that's down from 9%, which is just wild.
76
00:14:23.104 --> 00:14:28.704
So we've, we've made a lot of progress, but we still have such a long way to go.
77
00:14:28.724 --> 00:14:42.304
And, and as much as, again, especially in the global north and, and in the West, we, we talk about these tech-based solutions or these global scale nature-based solutions, these economy-wide levers to pull on these systemic issues.
78
00:14:42.864 --> 00:14:53.464
But many of the items we talk about on this show, and I've tried to focus on more and more, come back to people just not having the means- Mm... these very basic few things to survive.
79
00:14:54.044 --> 00:15:01.124
To be able to go to school requires your family to have enough money that you don't need to work. Mm-hmm. Bed nets, birth control, stuff like that.
80
00:15:01.464 --> 00:15:18.744
And so I have been so blown away by, by the incredible effectiveness of giving people money since I, since I began to, to try to understand it better and where it's going during a pandemic and a- after, and, and I really wanna help this community understand how they can most effectively contribute.
81
00:15:19.224 --> 00:15:27.904
Because at least, again, in America where we argue over everything and don't get a lot done, it's one thing to, to work in hunger specifically, right?
82
00:15:28.064 --> 00:15:39.064
Or, or building wells or in malaria to say, "I believe everybody should have water," right? Mm. Nobody can really argue with that. We can, we can get over the semantics of how, but you're not gonna argue with that.
83
00:15:39.104 --> 00:15:44.913
And it's another thing though to say, "People should just have the money to take care of themselves." Mm.
84
00:15:44.913 --> 00:15:57.324
And for some reason, for some folks, that's more complicated, despite all the evidence, and especially here in, in the US. So that's really where I wanna f- focus today is about giving people money.
85
00:15:57.404 --> 00:16:05.584
Like why, why is it so effective and why can it be so complicated? So if we could just set some context first. What does it mean?
86
00:16:05.704 --> 00:16:11.124
I wanna talk about what it means to live in poverty globally in 2021 and, and why has that changed over time.
87
00:16:11.164 --> 00:16:22.154
So we like to say that places like Los Angeles, where I spend half my time, are insanely inequitable, and, and it is, just terribly so, and it's infuriating, and it's a choice. It's a policy choice.
88
00:16:22.824 --> 00:16:37.204
But there's a different standard, obviously, in, in Africa to this day. What are the primary reasons why people still don't have the money for, and clean food, air, water, and shelter in 2021?
89
00:16:37.324 --> 00:16:50.404
Could you just give us some context for that? Today in 2021, when we have so much technology and so much ability to see so many people living in poverty, why haven't we got the solution?
90
00:16:51.184 --> 00:17:05.264
And it's a multifaceted question, and you can start from, you know, one, the policy landscape, and you want to ask ourselves, do we have the right public policies that respond to the needs of the people living in poverty?
91
00:17:06.624 --> 00:17:09.804
And even as you ask that, you know, it's been decades.
92
00:17:09.884 --> 00:17:23.584
Like, there has been a lot of investment in aid with the hope of reversing the situation of poverty for millions of people across the globe, but aid has not been that effective, and it m- might...
93
00:17:23.684 --> 00:17:37.084
One of the reasons could be because aid effectiveness is just a question which people have not yet embraced to get the right answer to, that so much has been given.
94
00:17:37.113 --> 00:17:39.894
And I will talk about Africa, for example, where I'm coming from.
95
00:17:40.264 --> 00:17:52.104
There has been so much that has been pumped into Africa to respond to the situation of poverty through aid and external support, but it's not getting better.
96
00:17:52.584 --> 00:18:09.084
Like, when you say that percentages have gone down, you also want to think about if they went down from 2017, population, world population has actually risen, which means in absolute numbers, we could actually be talking about more people living in poverty.
97
00:18:09.724 --> 00:18:19.604
And, you know, the, the, the nature of poverty is not even getting better. It's getting worse. Thank you. That's s- that, that's helpful to understand. Yeah.
98
00:18:19.804 --> 00:18:34.272
And, you know, it, it's time for us to ask questions whether-What we have been doing year in, year out in terms of reversing the situation of poverty is responding to the actual need of the people.
99
00:18:34.602 --> 00:18:46.212
And the answer lies in the paternalistic nature of aid, that, you know, yes, we see people who are poor, yes, we have the numbers, but then we also make the assumptions that we have the answers to their problems.
100
00:18:46.612 --> 00:18:55.072
And I like the fact that you've asked about water as a basic need. Why do people still don't have water? Why do people still don't have food?
101
00:18:55.692 --> 00:19:08.752
And that is because we have resources that are purposed in the wrong way, and wrong way in the sense that basic needs will remain basic. Water will remain basic, food will remain basic, shelter will remain basic.
102
00:19:09.512 --> 00:19:20.372
But the basic requirements for different people vary over time in quantities also, that one person requires food today, but right next door, another person requires water.
103
00:19:20.832 --> 00:19:23.772
And then next door, another person requires shelter.
104
00:19:24.352 --> 00:19:38.102
But then we come with this whole bundle of health, uh, of wealth and policies and say that everybody in this community should be given water or everybody should be given food, and sometimes we give the wrong food or the wrong water.
105
00:19:38.532 --> 00:19:49.792
I will close with an expl- you know, an example of a situation sometime in Mozambique in a place called Beira, where, you know, orphaned children were in dire need, and they needed support.
106
00:19:50.272 --> 00:20:03.372
And there's this Italian donor who came with truckloads of food, and those, that food was expired. Like, there was yogurt, and there was cheese, and I can tell you, they don't eat cheese.
107
00:20:03.412 --> 00:20:15.652
They don't even know how to eat cheese. But you've carried cheese there, and it expired, and you suspect maybe the time taken to transport this food across the shores might have contributed to the expiry.
108
00:20:15.712 --> 00:20:27.852
They're perishables. Like, that's unbelievable. That's money right there being wasted or people being given what they don't need or people being given what they need but now expired.
109
00:20:27.892 --> 00:20:31.592
No, that's, that's, that's profoundly illuminating. Th- absolutely.
110
00:20:31.652 --> 00:20:41.432
That, that gets to the root of it pretty quickly, which is, you know, different people might need different things on different days and in different moments in their life. So just showing up to build wells...
111
00:20:42.082 --> 00:20:46.992
M- I think about this idea of... And, and then Michael, I, I can see you're just taking furious notes over there.
112
00:20:47.012 --> 00:21:07.492
But, uh, I, I think about this idea of like, you know, o- of this progress we've made, and you're right, y- it's important that whether we're talking about r- r- relative percentages or absolute numbers, you know, I, I imagine there has been some low-hanging fruit, but then you really have to get into what is each person's lived experience and what are they lacking, and the...
113
00:21:07.892 --> 00:21:15.752
Seems like the best way to fix that is to allow them to make the decision for themselves on how to deal with it. M- Michael, please go. Sorry to interrupt.
114
00:21:15.792 --> 00:21:24.262
Oh, yes, I mean, the, the, the big surprise is that each person has their own individual lived experience, and as it turns out, their own individual needs.
115
00:21:24.992 --> 00:21:33.772
Like, if you go into a village and say, "Let's find the one thing that everybody in this village needs," like, good luck. Sure. [laughs] Right? There's...
116
00:21:33.792 --> 00:21:42.532
Uh, you go to your 10 neighbors and say, "We're all getting the same Christmas gift. Let's just agree on that." Yeah. Not gonna happen. You know why? These people need different things, and
117
00:21:43.752 --> 00:21:51.842
the person that knows what they need is often the person themselves. Mm-hmm. Quin, I, I, I was gonna go back to your question of why, why is there still poverty.
118
00:21:53.012 --> 00:22:05.152
So wh- when I was doing the PhD, there, there was entire literature on kind of what causes growth, what helps poverty reduction, what is the cause of poverty, and th- there's a debate, right?
119
00:22:05.412 --> 00:22:19.772
Is it the geography of countries? Is it the government? And so on and so forth. The reality is, at an individual level, it doesn't matter, because do you know whose fault it is not? The individual and the recipient.
120
00:22:20.592 --> 00:22:34.392
If you are living in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, you are poor because you are living in rural eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, and we don't need to debate [chuckles] the cause of kind of the structural thing.
121
00:22:34.532 --> 00:22:43.572
It, it is useful, and it is absolutely something to talk about at a macro level, but at individual level, it's not relevant. And it's not relevant because if I were to give that person money,
122
00:22:44.621 --> 00:22:54.932
that person would become less poor, and you don't need a PhD for that. There's no math behind it. Poverty is a lack of resources. If I give you more, you have more.
123
00:22:54.972 --> 00:23:06.852
It's als- obviously, poverty can be complicated and have other, other aspects, but it is easy to forget this kind of structured, finite aspect of the problem, that giving people money makes them less poor.
124
00:23:06.952 --> 00:23:18.032
Now, a lot of people bring a Western lens to it. If you walk down the street of New York City, you might see people on the street, and they might be asking for money and also drinking out of a brown bag.
125
00:23:18.532 --> 00:23:28.292
And poverty in the US is more complicated. You, you may have interactions with mental illness, substance abuse, other aspects.
126
00:23:28.332 --> 00:23:32.832
And that's not to say cash doesn't work because there have been studies in the US where cash works.
127
00:23:33.472 --> 00:23:43.952
But at some level, it's even less complicated in the places that we're working, which is it is not associated with any of those things I mentioned. You are poor because you are born there.
128
00:23:43.972 --> 00:23:45.612
A- and that's what we're trying to sort.
129
00:23:45.672 --> 00:23:59.092
Yeah, you know, I was just reading, there's this fantastic Black American writer, author, poet, historian, Clint Smith, who just had a new book came out, and I just finished it this morning, called How the Word Was Passed.
130
00:23:59.292 --> 00:24:07.472
And, and he, he usually writes for The Atlantic, just tremendously smart human being, one of those, you read the book and you're just like, "You know, I'm just not gonna do any more writing." [laughs] "It's...
131
00:24:07.652 --> 00:24:20.552
I give up." But, you know, he, he m- he made this point, and you talked about you're poor because you're growing up, you're born into and you're growing up in, in rural, you know, Democratic Eastern Congo.
132
00:24:20.642 --> 00:24:24.662
And he talks about how, you know, there's this thing, it, it...
133
00:24:24.672 --> 00:24:45.016
Basically, the, the, the book is this exploration through, I think, five or six different-Places throughout America that are part of the real story of, of how the s- the slavery operation worked here and how it got here, uh, logistically, and how it worked here from, from plantations to prisons to all, all of the above.
134
00:24:45.516 --> 00:24:55.396
And in one of the last places he goes, he goes back to Senegal and is talking about how it's important to understand that there isn't a s- it's not just there isn't a single...
135
00:24:55.406 --> 00:25:05.606
And I'm calling you from Colonial Williamsburg, Virginia. There isn't a single moment in America's history where the economy wasn't based on free labor and mar- and marginalized peoples at the very least. Mm.
136
00:25:05.606 --> 00:25:22.816
And but it's also a zero-sum game because that, those people that built America, Black slaves, were taken from countries, which means those countries had their ancestor- or ancestry of, of workforces removed from them.
137
00:25:22.956 --> 00:25:22.996
Mm.
138
00:25:23.386 --> 00:25:35.906
And so you have to understand that th- those people weren't able to build up and spend, you know, generations now, 250, 300, 400 years building on the things that we've been able to build on here for, for free, which we've enabled.
139
00:25:36.496 --> 00:25:50.556
And it's, it's important, I think, especially again, for people from the West to, to constantly remember that when we're saying like, "Well, why are we giving so much," you know, whether it's the US giving aid or when, when George Bush was sending money for AIDS work or whatever it might be.
140
00:25:50.636 --> 00:26:00.116
It's like, well, because we, we took all of that. Mm. And that, that matters, and we have to keep reminding ourselves of that. Anyways, I was just reading that part this morning, and it- It's...
141
00:26:00.376 --> 00:26:10.976
Yo- your point about giving too much is actually an interesting one, so I'm not sure if you've seen these surveys. But if you ask people, "Do you think we're giving too much abroad?" You'll often get the answer yes.
142
00:26:11.096 --> 00:26:18.936
Mm-hmm. I forget the exact numbers- Mm-hmm... but a majority will say, "Yes, we are giving too much." And they say, "Great. How much do you think we should be giving- Mm-hmm... in aid or abroad?
143
00:26:19.036 --> 00:26:30.316
What percentage of kind of global GDP do you think- Right... we should dedicate this?" Yeah. And people say, "I don't know, 5%, 10%." You say, "Great. The actual number is closer to 1%." Right.
144
00:26:30.716 --> 00:26:44.236
We spend a lot of time getting to.7%. Sure. So if you think we're at 10- Sure... we're at one, we're not doing that much. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it would not take a tremendous amount to actually end poverty.
145
00:26:44.276 --> 00:26:57.796
Two, two facts for you, talking about the world getting better or worse. If you look at two graphs, I, I think they're... Or one graph, two lines, it's quite powerful. So the poverty gap has been falling for some time.
146
00:26:58.016 --> 00:27:09.176
It, it has likely increased in the last year with COVID, but before that, it had been falling. What the poverty gap is, is the amount of money that would be required to get every person above the poverty line.
147
00:27:10.076 --> 00:27:20.356
And it's theoretical, right? So if you're living at $1.20 and the line is $1.90, we assume 70 cents, and we just add that up over all the people. So the poverty gap has been falling.
148
00:27:21.076 --> 00:27:31.196
The amount of development assistance, which is the aid that we send abroad, has been increasing over the same time. So those are two great facts. Poverty gap falling, aid increasing.
149
00:27:32.116 --> 00:27:42.236
For the first time, about 15 years ago, those two lines crossed, and the amount of aid we send is more than the amount that would be required to close the poverty gap.
150
00:27:43.136 --> 00:27:48.316
Where we are today is that the amount of aid is about double what would be required to close the poverty gap.
151
00:27:49.276 --> 00:28:00.256
So if you just close your eyes for a second and imagine we just took that money and we could magically put it in the hands of those under the poverty line, poverty would be over.
152
00:28:02.856 --> 00:28:14.096
That, I think, is both provocative and motivating. Now, of course, the world is more complicated. I don't know exactly how far below the poverty line- Of course... each person is. I don't know exactly where they are.
153
00:28:14.366 --> 00:28:26.536
Mm-hmm. But as a starting point, I think it's a really important one because if you reframe it for what should we do with our resources to what should we do with the global resources, the poorest resources.
154
00:28:26.576 --> 00:28:37.216
Imagine those resources weren't our, the donor communities to spend- Mm... but they already were distributed with the poorest. Mm. What would we feel comfortable going to them and saying, "You know what?
155
00:28:37.756 --> 00:28:45.716
I'd like to have some of your money back." They say, "Why do you want my money back?" "I'm gonna buy you a cow in the US. It's gonna be a beautiful cow." Mm-hmm.
156
00:28:46.145 --> 00:28:54.316
"And then we're gonna ship it back to you, and we're gonna spend three times the amount of money it would've taken you to buy a cow locally." Right. Do you know how much it takes to ship a cow? Right. Right.
157
00:28:55.116 --> 00:28:59.415
That's crazy. Sure. But that is still what a lot of it is.
158
00:28:59.496 --> 00:29:16.716
You know, what Michael is saying is almost reflective of some of the things that I see here that is done using aid and, you know, you sit back and ask yourself, "If we've been spending twice what we need and we still have poverty, then what has happened to all that aid?"
159
00:29:17.516 --> 00:29:29.536
And I see examples of where some of that aid has gone, that money has been put to drill wells for people living in poverty because somebody sat somewhere and imagined that these people needed water.
160
00:29:30.536 --> 00:29:41.746
But then even the person who has been given the responsibility to dig that well doesn't actually dig a well. They go into a riverbed that has dried up, and they dig a hole
161
00:29:42.676 --> 00:29:52.016
because they're going to reach a very shallow aquifer. A donor will be told that a well was dug. I have seen this. Nobody has told me this.
162
00:29:53.376 --> 00:30:04.536
Now, that person will have sunk in there between 30 to $40,000 for a well that will not work, absolutely zero.
163
00:30:05.896 --> 00:30:13.296
They will also report that they have used 50, $70,000 for that same well.
164
00:30:13.396 --> 00:30:25.156
So there is money going to waste in terms of what has been spent on the well, and money going to waste in terms of the real well that is actually supposed to be helping people. So you ask yourself, where is aid going?
165
00:30:25.196 --> 00:30:38.300
Why isn't it helping people? Some of it is just not spent the right way. Ag- agreed. And it is not for a lack of good intent. Exactly.And, and a lot of donors. And Teti and I see different pieces of it.
166
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:50.340
I, I think a lot of people are well-motivated. I think it is hard to do well. A lot of aid has done well. There are bed nets- Mm-hmm... deworming. There's certainly aid that has been wasted.
167
00:30:51.220 --> 00:31:02.520
And the question is not only how do we do better, but how do we empower the recipient versus making choices for them? Quinn, you mentioned this. It's... You mentioned water, hunger.
168
00:31:03.580 --> 00:31:12.800
A- a- and it's, it's sort of interesting, which is that's exactly the way the sector has split. Mm-hmm. Right? There's a organization dedicated to hunger. Sure. That's the objective they solve.
169
00:31:12.840 --> 00:31:21.610
There's an organization dedicated to water, sh- shelter, and so on, and that's what they solve. But that's not the way people make decisions. Mm-mm. They don't say, "You know what,
170
00:31:22.860 --> 00:31:30.260
husband and family, this month we're only going to focus on hunger." [laughs] Right. [laughs] "I know you're sick, but next month-" Sure. [laughs] "... is health month." Sure.
171
00:31:30.290 --> 00:31:39.220
[laughs] "We've decided that we are mandated." Right. That's the best one. Right. "Oh, it's March. No more water." And- Right. That is the best example. But the beauty of cash is it's like every NGO in one.
172
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:43.760
We do water, we do health, we do education, we do it all, but we let the recipient choose.
173
00:31:44.100 --> 00:32:00.120
Y- we know that your work is so effective, and like you said, the, this image of, of aid increasing and, and the, and, and the poverty line, and now we're, we're, we're spending double to what it should theoretically take.
174
00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:17.260
And, and the, the analogy, again, it's, it's not quite apples to apples, is, but it, but it's [laughs] certainly related is this idea of, and again, certainly in America, it's this idea of like everybody needs whatever, I mean, quote-unquote, "needs" to be healthy, 2,000 calories a day, and, and Americans waste X amount.
175
00:32:17.320 --> 00:32:24.780
Mm-hmm. Right? It's like it, it's way... We have everyone's like, "We gotta make this much food to feed 30 years 10 billion people." It's like we can. We already do. That's not the problem.
176
00:32:25.280 --> 00:32:36.800
You know, it's distribution, it's waste, it's yields, yada yada. But so, so much of it's waste. It's, it's an incredibly complicated systemic problem. But you talk about that image and those numbers being provocative.
177
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:53.260
I wanna talk about, just for a moment, about storytelling. Stats don't always, as we know, move the needle. Stories, whether it's Teti's personal story or, or something like that, seem to have the most effect.
178
00:32:53.400 --> 00:33:00.539
I mean, storytelling is, is w- what we do, right? That's... We've been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years. Mm-hmm. I think about how...
179
00:33:00.560 --> 00:33:12.550
And, and we're wrestling with this here, as we, part of the US's COVID relief was, was enhancing this child tax credit, which could totally change lives for Black Americans and, and brown Americans.
180
00:33:13.050 --> 00:33:28.400
It is giving families money to, to start with, to pay for these necessities as they see fit, but also to possibly even put in a savings account or do things like that that could, you know, let these families have access to, to compounding interest, which is, usually goes against them.
181
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:39.660
Mm-hmm. Right? But the point is, again, poverty is this policy choice, whether it's here or anywhere else. When we do have success, like with this child tax benefit or you guys just giving money,
182
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:52.460
it's important that we learn how to most effectively tell stories about that progress, because if anything else, it increases the number of people who are just giving money to GiveDirectly to give it away.
183
00:33:52.520 --> 00:34:09.580
I wonder how much you guys... And, and, and, and Teti, I know this isn't your specific job, but how much you focus on this, this mission of what you do and why you do it, and how you, for lack of a better word, sell it.
184
00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:19.160
How you mark change and how you tell stories about that to increase the overall effectiv- effectiveness of what you do. Does that make sense, or am I doing rambling again?
185
00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:28.460
No, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's such a good meta question, and it's- Yeah... something we ask ourselves a lot. It's, it's hard. Sure.
186
00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:37.980
Because for anything you can dream that a recipient done, I can assure you I can find one at this point that has done it.
187
00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:46.520
Whether it's shut down their distillery business because they didn't like being hassled by the police- Mm...
188
00:34:46.540 --> 00:34:56.199
by distributing illegal alcohol, to going from collecting things from the garbage dump to actually making electronics out of them, there's everything there.
189
00:34:57.139 --> 00:35:11.900
What we have done is we have launched a site called live.givedirectly.com which actually shows a live feed of recipient stories, but not in our words, in those recipient words. And I think it is fascinating.
190
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:19.860
It's got a search bar. Search for your favorite whatever you want, bed, alcohol, whatever word you want, and you could hear it in their words.
191
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:32.000
And I think one of the reasons why it's been hard often for stories to break out is that for a long time, the stories have not been the recipient's stories. They have been stories told by donor agencies.
192
00:35:32.700 --> 00:35:44.279
And I'll, I'll give o- one story that I heard. An NGO had on their website something that said, you know, "For 30 cents, you can save a life." 30 cents just doesn't seem like much money. How do we get to 30 cents?
193
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:58.980
How do we get this story? Sure. Well, I looked at the other NGOs, and that's what they had on their website. [laughs] And I hate to be this cynical, but we've often told the stories that donors want to hear.
194
00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:08.910
And even when I go to a village, and Teti, I'm curious, I'm sure you've had the same experience. You ask people, "What'd you do?" Everyone sort of starts with what they think you wanna hear. Mm-hmm.
195
00:36:08.910 --> 00:36:15.950
"Oh, I started a vegetable stand, and my life is completely different." Sure. [laughs] I said, "No, no. Okay, you don't need to tell me that story. I've, I've heard that story a few times." Yeah.
196
00:36:16.020 --> 00:36:24.510
Like, "What did, what, what'd you really do?" "Do you know, I, I put a tin roof over my head." "Tin roof? W- why did you put a tin roof?" Mm-hmm.
197
00:36:24.610 --> 00:36:36.360
You know, there's, there's a bit of a Western, Western judgmental side, thinks is the tin roof the kinda Kenyan equivalent of the marble bathroom in, uh, uptown Manhattan. Is this just a...
198
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:51.036
But then you hear the story and say, "Well, actually I can collect clean water from the tin roof, so I don't need to walk a mile to collect it every day."And it turns out the tin roof doesn't fall down twice a year, so I don't need to spend all this money replacing it.
199
00:36:51.156 --> 00:37:05.876
Mm. Um, but you know what's most important to me? So, well, I don't have to watch my children get rained on every night. And there's no metric for that, but that's often the most powerful.
200
00:37:07.016 --> 00:37:19.016
And if there's anything that just speaks to the decency importance in getting people to a standard, not watching your children huddled up getting rained on because you bought a tin roof underscores that so deeply to me.
201
00:37:19.856 --> 00:37:29.516
Yeah. But Teti gets to do this every day. This is-- I'm very jealous of Teti's job because she gets to do this every day in talking to recipients. Yeah. And you, Michael- So Teti, I wonder if, yeah- Sorry.
202
00:37:29.556 --> 00:37:34.116
Go ahead, please. I- I'm really curious to hear your perspective on that, because what you do is fairly unique.
203
00:37:34.836 --> 00:37:52.076
When you talk about recipients and their stories and whether we do enough to, you know, capture our work through recipient stories, you know, you want to also put GiveDirectly side by side with a typical traditional nonprofit here in Kenya.
204
00:37:52.806 --> 00:38:09.576
A lot of nonprofits have the opportunity to show physical structures. They can show you computation. They can show you maybe a wa- a, a, a water pump that they've dug. They can show you, you know, physical things.
205
00:38:11.196 --> 00:38:29.136
We cannot show you human beings and point to them that those are the people we sent money. They have to speak for you to know it actually worked. We have to tell their story every day of our work.
206
00:38:29.156 --> 00:38:38.256
There's no better way of us telling, talking about the work that we do except for letting the recipients themselves say it.
207
00:38:38.876 --> 00:38:49.656
And I think each and every day, we look for the most innovative ways to get them as close as possible to speaking to the people who want to hear their story more than us telling the story.
208
00:38:50.036 --> 00:39:00.436
So Michael just talked about GD Live. Um, you know, we have brought donors down to come and find first-hand experience talking to these recipients.
209
00:39:00.936 --> 00:39:09.756
You know, we have recipients who speak English who can come to platforms such as this, and we can facilitate them and ask them, "Come and speak to someone who wants to hear what this means to you."
210
00:39:10.596 --> 00:39:18.836
And that is so powerful. If we were to start telling the story of our recipients, each and every day there's a new story.
211
00:39:18.896 --> 00:39:26.676
When I was coming to this podcast, we had a list of stories that, you know, we've had, and we thought this would be a very good story to share.
212
00:39:27.636 --> 00:39:35.716
Until I got here today, and I was asking the teams that came from the other side of town, and I'm like: "What's happening that side of town? What have you had?"
213
00:39:36.996 --> 00:39:52.376
And they tell me about this old man who got the transfer from GiveDirectly, fifty-five hundred and fifty dollars, and in his own mind and choice, he bought a machine that hatches eggs,
214
00:39:53.896 --> 00:40:04.836
and he says he's hatching like a hundred eggs every week. Somebody sitting somewhere, one could never choose for him that as a project.
215
00:40:05.636 --> 00:40:20.696
Two, may think that because he's living in poverty in a rural interior part of Kenya, he might not have an idea such as that hatchery, or that he may not be able to manage it because it might be too complicated a technology.
216
00:40:20.736 --> 00:40:35.756
He might not have electricity. But they have their innovative ways of turning things around. To the story of housing that Michael has just talked about, having a tin-roofed house is, is, is, is an achievement here.
217
00:40:35.796 --> 00:40:48.996
But you will come and find that so many people have built tin-roofed houses. But if you went through their stories, each of them has a different motivation for why that roof is most important to them.
218
00:40:50.476 --> 00:40:59.596
There's a story of, like, three women that I spoke to at one point when, you know, I was asking myself, "Tin-roofed houses? Why are so many people building tin-roofed houses?
219
00:40:59.916 --> 00:41:14.156
I need to speak to some people to just hear their story." And I chose t- three women. One woman told me, for her, building a tin roof meant security for her daughters because she was fearing about sexual assault.
220
00:41:15.336 --> 00:41:22.016
And you know that out here, there are people who have put a lot of programs to protect girls from sexual assault. Good job.
221
00:41:22.556 --> 00:41:33.476
But nobody will tell you that we are going to build you a house so that you can protect your daughters from being assaulted sexually. For another woman, for her, a house meant that
222
00:41:34.596 --> 00:41:46.496
for her sixth birth, sixth birth, so she's a m- she was a mother of five, and she said, "For all my five children, any time I wanted to deliver," and it's home birth,
223
00:41:47.476 --> 00:41:59.596
"any time I wanted to deliver a child, I have to go and beg for a house from my neighbor. I am tired of begging. I am embarrassed of begging. Today, I have found a relief,
224
00:42:01.256 --> 00:42:14.216
a house where I am going to get privacy, a house where my child is going to be delivered in dignity." To a third woman, having a tin-roofed house
225
00:42:15.376 --> 00:42:29.836
meant that the years that she has spent in her marriage with her husband, living in the state that they were living in, and being a polygamous man, three women, they were forced to live in the same house.
226
00:42:30.416 --> 00:42:43.636
For anybody listening to that w- or watching that woman, you would assume that, what a loving husband. Wow, what loving women these are. What a peaceful family. These women, they can live together in the same house.
227
00:42:43.656 --> 00:42:57.164
Of course, living in one house as co-wives is su- such a difficult thing. For this woman- Mm... a tin roof was a liberationShe says, "This marriage has been a bondage. I've never had privacy.
228
00:42:57.964 --> 00:43:07.504
I have never had independence. I have never had to choose even what to eat because we have to eat the same thing because we're in the same house. A tin roof is liberation for me."
229
00:43:08.704 --> 00:43:23.244
When people make decisions about their lives, they know which part of the shoe that pinches most they're easing. Each person needs a solution for their problems. And these stories are so many, Quinn.
230
00:43:23.534 --> 00:43:39.524
We can't tell all of them. But most important, when you get the recipients themselves to talk about them, it's more liberating. Thank you for sharing that. It's just so illustrative of the fact that we each have a...
231
00:43:39.664 --> 00:43:48.174
I, I mean, besides just the pure logistics of, like you said, we can't have water month and heal- and health month [laughs] and shelter month, and that's not the way a, a...
232
00:43:48.224 --> 00:43:58.544
That's not the way a person works, much less a family unit. Yeah. Much less an extended family unit. But e- I come back to this, this word you used of, of liberation.
233
00:43:59.644 --> 00:44:12.834
And again, not to, not to just bring it back to the US, but I'm, I'm trying to, to think of how, [laughs] how broken things are here a- as well and, and coming back to thinking about w- w...
234
00:44:12.864 --> 00:44:26.754
I always try to get to the, this why, this why. And, and part of this, part of the American dream, right? That, that doesn't necessarily exist for, for most people, but is this idea of freedom and, and liberty. Mm-hmm.
235
00:44:26.924 --> 00:44:37.144
Right? But we're so paternalistic, to use a word that you guys used earlier, which just applies to everything about America- [laughs]... about...
236
00:44:37.204 --> 00:44:43.294
It's, it's so contradictory, 'cause the idea of liberty and the idea of agency is, is that you're in charge of your own story. Mm-hmm.
237
00:44:43.294 --> 00:44:49.484
But we're so paternalistic to everyone else about how they get to use that, if they get to use it at all. Mm-hmm. Right?
238
00:44:50.104 --> 00:45:10.384
And that's why it's so surprising to so many people every time I talk about, I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with Project Drawdown, which is one of the most comprehensive and effective models of the best ways we can draw down carbon emissions measured by category, from onshore wind to offshore wind to, to transportation, whatever it might be.
239
00:45:10.404 --> 00:45:18.524
But in the top six, I think, at least as of a year or so ago, are educating girls and family planning. Mm-hmm.
240
00:45:18.964 --> 00:45:38.844
And there's no other category that stops, especially men, in their tracks as when you tell them, "Of this list of 100 things we need to do to essentially save the world [laughs] from all catching on fire and seas rising and, and, and monsoons skipping or, or sticking around longer, hurricanes being wetter, is educating girls and family planning."
241
00:45:40.124 --> 00:45:49.854
But it's because we, we, we, we are so eager to say that, "Well, if you, if you come here you, you, you get liberty," or you think you do, and then you say, "Well, I, I should get liberty."
242
00:45:49.944 --> 00:46:02.104
But, but we're not gonna do UBI 'cause we don't trust people- Mm-hmm... to do what we think is the right thing, because we have this own, our own definition of what that is. But- It, it's been... Hold on. Go ahead.
243
00:46:02.144 --> 00:46:07.844
No, I was just gonna say, but i- it's... I mean, th- this idea of liberation is that each person should...
244
00:46:08.704 --> 00:46:14.744
Earning liber- b- being liberated, earning your own liberation means you should be able to get, to, to find that for yourselves.
245
00:46:14.784 --> 00:46:25.364
And whether that's, again, giving girls and, and mothers money so that girls can be educated so they don't have to go to work, and family planning so that they don't have to get pregnant if they don't want to.
246
00:46:25.444 --> 00:46:31.984
You know, I mean, you just go back down this list, but we just never stop to ask why and asking somebody, "What do you need, and how can I help?" Mm-hmm.
247
00:46:32.084 --> 00:46:39.484
Which I have found to be, like, the most effective question either for this business or for my own marriage. Just [laughs] literally like, "How, how, how can I help?"
248
00:46:39.504 --> 00:46:43.874
But I just- We're not, we're not, we're not gonna dive into that. [laughs] Yeah. No, no, no. By the way, that's a separate podcast. That's a whole topic on its own.
249
00:46:43.874 --> 00:46:50.524
I am gonna need you guys to stick around for it, though. [laughs] No. Yeah. Well, I think I have an opinion on it. But thank you for sharing those stories.
250
00:46:50.584 --> 00:46:58.024
It just, it seems to be this universal thing where we don't trust each other to, to handle our own, our own, our own business, our own liberation.
251
00:46:58.064 --> 00:47:10.684
And, and yet when you hear these very personal remarkable stories, you find out how much more powerful that really is when you have that agency. And I think it's been something that's been powerful in COVID. Sure. Right?
252
00:47:10.804 --> 00:47:23.924
So we, w- we all want liberty. Mm-hmm. Right? [laughs] Yet when it comes to others, we're so naturally paternalistic. Mm. Mm. And I think there is this natural othering. That was the disaster in Goma.
253
00:47:23.984 --> 00:47:36.614
The volcano happened to those people in Goma. Sure. Or that was the type. And what happened in COVID is we had a disaster that happened to all of us. We were all part of it at some level or not. And I think
254
00:47:37.564 --> 00:47:46.914
it's not that surprising that cash became more popular in COVID. Mm. Because when you take a step back and say, "Wait a second, how would I wanna be helped in a disaster?"
255
00:47:47.804 --> 00:47:58.564
Would I want to open up a box of ragged teddy bears that someone else sent and maybe some canned Campbell's soup? Cheese. Like Ted said. Cheese. Yes. And really, really moldy cheese. I know. Nobody needs it.
256
00:47:58.744 --> 00:48:07.664
Nobody [laughs] needs that cheese, Ted. Who doesn't want moldy cheese? [laughs] Or, or do I want money? Because I may need to buy a new car. My neighbor may need to fix their house.
257
00:48:08.424 --> 00:48:16.344
And you saw a huge uptick in cash programs, right? So I think there's over 150 new cash programs started around the world during COVID.
258
00:48:16.944 --> 00:48:24.384
We got to a level where about 15% of the world population was getting a cash program. Now, some of that is certainly necessity, right?
259
00:48:24.644 --> 00:48:38.194
Cash, digital cash, which is what we do, is operationally quite convenient when you can't visit people. Sure. Because I can sit here in a desk in New York and send digital money to someone in a refugee settlement.
260
00:48:38.204 --> 00:48:43.204
Mm-hmm. I don't need to go visit them- Sure... per se. And it's also scalable.
261
00:48:43.764 --> 00:48:53.292
A- and that's, I think, what the operational bit is one of the reasons why, but I also think there's something about, that there's something de-othering about the COVID crisis.It is.
262
00:48:53.302 --> 00:49:08.202
I mean, there's ano- again, I ha- to keep harping on it, there's a gentleman, a fantastic science anthropological writer named Ed Yong, a British gentleman living in the US who, who just won a Pulitzer last week, so incredibly proud of him, for his coverage in The Atlantic of COVID.
263
00:49:08.792 --> 00:49:16.842
And he, he wrote another piece last week, which we'll put in the show notes and I can send to you guys, about how America's biggest issue still, we're still going- Mm...
264
00:49:16.912 --> 00:49:27.032
with this thing, is that we have made this, even with the new administration who, who again, you assume the best intent, at least this administration, is we've made it about individuals.
265
00:49:27.232 --> 00:49:34.792
We, we, we, we, we dropped our mask mandates and we said, "You have a choice. You can wear a mask or you can get a shot. You know, go, go get it."
266
00:49:35.172 --> 00:49:46.572
Which completely ignores the fact of, of, you know, generations of, of distrust of the medical establishment or, or, or the fact that you can't get time off to go get a f- a first shot, much less a second shot, or that there isn't...
267
00:49:47.172 --> 00:49:57.371
It's a vaccine desert, like the same people who live in food deserts in the US or have had their water turns off. It, it ignores so much of the support system that w- that we refuse to, to provide.
268
00:49:57.732 --> 00:50:04.812
And that's what I think about, again, going back to that low-hanging fruit of, you know, there are systemic paternalistic things that actually can be done for good.
269
00:50:04.852 --> 00:50:09.552
Like, we have to, we have to cancel out these industries that are poisoning the air of people in, in America.
270
00:50:10.172 --> 00:50:17.392
But then let's give them cash to do the things they do, because cash isn't, cash in their pocket isn't gonna make, you know, the, you know, the roads cleaner.
271
00:50:17.812 --> 00:50:29.232
So there are things we can be doing, but, but I, I, yeah, I just, I keep coming back to this idea of, like, giving people the power to do that thing because if you wanna be indivi- individualistic about it, let's, let's go all the way.
272
00:50:29.412 --> 00:50:34.092
Let's, let's let them do that then, and we refuse to do it. And it seems like that is a...
273
00:50:34.792 --> 00:50:43.572
Again, with good intent, somebody might be building all the wells in the world, but the- nobody, they might not need a well this month [laughs]. They might need tampons or- And- [laughs]
274
00:50:43.592 --> 00:50:53.872
Well, that's, it, it, it's funny that you bring that up because that actually also reminds me of a story, but quick, going back a second, I'm glad you brought it up because it's an important point, which is cash is not going to solve everything.
275
00:50:54.612 --> 00:51:05.652
There are structural problems. Cash does not, I think this is your example, does not pave roads. Cash does not discover vaccines. Cash does not provide national defense, right?
276
00:51:05.672 --> 00:51:15.122
There are a lot of things that you require coordination. Mm-hmm. Public goods are important, but there's a lot of waste- Mm-hmm... for these individual-type interventions that still exist- Sure. Sure...
277
00:51:15.122 --> 00:51:20.992
which can be replaced by cash. All right, we know how well your programs work. We know h- how it works.
278
00:51:21.412 --> 00:51:31.502
To focus on you two for a minute, 'cause, 'cause I always wanna get to this point of our community being able to, they certainly sympathize, they empathize, they support it, but to see themselves
279
00:51:32.692 --> 00:51:45.892
doing work like this that's incredibly effective. It's a less measurable question, of course. And, and Teti, maybe we can start with you here. Why does it, why does it, why, why do it?
280
00:51:45.932 --> 00:52:00.032
Why does it matter so much to you to do this specific form of work, of support, and even more specifically, what you do within the organization? Yeah. Can you talk about that? Yeah.
281
00:52:00.092 --> 00:52:16.852
I think, you know, I have, I have three phases of responses to, to that answer, and the first phase is I have learned, and I have learned out of the work that I have done elsewhere.
282
00:52:18.332 --> 00:52:30.392
I have been in the aid sector 16 years now. I have implemented programs of different kinds, and, you know, I can tell you this for free.
283
00:52:32.372 --> 00:52:46.712
As I worked in different organizations, missions moved me differently. I'm, I, I, I'm, I'm a very value-driven person, and I remember there's this organization that I worked in, and five months later, I left.
284
00:52:47.572 --> 00:52:52.532
I just couldn't take it anymore. And I have changed jobs,
285
00:52:53.792 --> 00:53:04.702
but today I can tell you, if somebody gave me an option to go elsewhere from GiveDirectly, I don't think I would fit well because I have not yet figured where that place is. And this is- That is so good to hear...
286
00:53:04.702 --> 00:53:15.882
I'm telling you this from the bottom of my heart. [laughs] It's five years. Yeah, it's five years, and I can do another five years. One time I asked my husband, "How do you stay in, in one organization for 11 years?
287
00:53:15.952 --> 00:53:25.822
You don't get bored?" Today I want to stay more. I want to stay even 20 years. It's when you see that you have spent so many years doing the wrong thing,
288
00:53:27.252 --> 00:53:38.812
and one day you realize, "Oh my God, if I had spent all those years doing this specific thing," I would get this inner motivation as a person.
289
00:53:38.852 --> 00:53:51.352
But even more important is that when I go back to the communities, and this is why I love talking to recipients, and that's my second point, that I have learned so much from the communities.
290
00:53:52.672 --> 00:54:03.452
You don't have to write it in an encyclopedia. A 70-year-old woman told me, "Were you angels or was it God?
291
00:54:04.512 --> 00:54:21.252
Because I don't understand how a beautiful organization like yours with a beautiful program selected my village in the middle of nowhere. People have come here, but I have never seen anybody come with anything like..."
292
00:54:21.692 --> 00:54:35.732
For her, she looked at us like angels dropping down from the heavens, and you know, it, for me, it was not so much about what she saw. It was me now asking myself, "What is that I have been doing?
293
00:54:35.792 --> 00:54:45.992
Why hasn't somebody ever told me that I was an angel? Why won't..." What those other programs I was doing, they just considered it that NGO that came here.
294
00:54:47.512 --> 00:55:01.376
That NGO, I don't want to mention names, but they would call those organizations by their names. They would call the interventions that they brought-That water belongs to this NGO. That well belongs to this NGO.
295
00:55:01.656 --> 00:55:08.856
That school belongs to this NGO. Nobody has ever called GiveDirectly's money belonging to GiveDirectly. That NGO that brought us money,
296
00:55:10.696 --> 00:55:18.026
and they have never asked us that, "You know, I made a mistake when I used your money like this." But you will go back- Mm...
297
00:55:18.026 --> 00:55:25.756
to these villages, and they will tell you, "But they came and they sank latrines here, the pit latrines, the toilets. They have never come back to make it again."
298
00:55:26.046 --> 00:55:39.216
Nobody asks you that about cash because they make personal decisions about what they do with the money. Why do I want to stay in this sector? Why do I believe in what I am doing?
299
00:55:40.476 --> 00:55:51.915
Because I have seen the journey of poverty, and I know how difficult that journey can be. I know how dehumanizing it can be.
300
00:55:52.996 --> 00:56:05.916
And when you hear people say the things that they have done after realizing the power of money, let me tell you, Quinn, in some of these communities, there are people who don't even know the power of money.
301
00:56:06.976 --> 00:56:15.676
They live each day as it comes. If it comes with hunger, that's it. If it comes with goodies, that's it. If it comes with money, that's it.
302
00:56:16.036 --> 00:56:29.976
And most of the time, it's somebody else's money directed to be used in another way. It has given me the conviction that, you know what, if we were to have life longer today, we should do more of this.
303
00:56:30.376 --> 00:56:39.526
We should touch more people's lives because I know when we do it here, tomorrow when I am not there, somebody will tell the story of the right thing to be done.
304
00:56:40.016 --> 00:56:51.256
A child who was educated with GiveDirectly's money tomorrow will be a champion for the right programming for his community or her community when Michael and myself will not be here. That's it, Quinn.
305
00:56:51.956 --> 00:56:56.486
It's you're, you're, you're empowering people. Exactly. Exactly.
306
00:56:56.496 --> 00:57:07.576
And, and, and like you said, and some people don't even know the, the power of what you're giving them the ability to, to do yet, and you can't really do that.
307
00:57:07.596 --> 00:57:17.505
Again, there's well-meaning people and organizations the world over, but y- you can't really do that with a well you don't revisit or a latrine that nobody comes back to, or...
308
00:57:19.356 --> 00:57:23.236
But if someone is, if somebody is hatching 100 eggs a week,
309
00:57:24.876 --> 00:57:33.156
you do the secondary math c- in a called second-order effects of it's not just those 100 eggs a week, or it's not just the tin roof, but where does it go from there?
310
00:57:33.196 --> 00:57:39.716
Like, what, what does it do, what does it do to children when they don't have to huddle under the rain anymore?
311
00:57:39.756 --> 00:57:49.896
What does that mean next week, in a month, in a year, in a couple years, just because you gave them some digital cash? And you, you, you're not in control of that.
312
00:57:49.956 --> 00:58:02.276
They're in control of that, and that's a totally different ballgame. Michael, what about you? Why, w- why, why this specific thing? And, and your answer cannot be because it works. [laughs] I know that.
313
00:58:02.916 --> 00:58:17.576
I know that already. My, my, my, u- unlike Teti, my story is incredibly boring. I grew up public school teacher parents, public school growing up. I hadn't left the country until I was in college and
314
00:58:18.616 --> 00:58:22.876
really saw poverty for the first time on a trip to Ecuador where I was teaching English.
315
00:58:23.456 --> 00:58:32.236
I, I, I had tried medicine like all good kids at the time and realized I was too squeamish from blood and then tried education like the parents.
316
00:58:33.056 --> 00:58:47.596
But it's hard not to think about the structural reasons for inequity and just poverty, uh, poverty. What pulled me to poverty w- was a few things. One is the magnitude of the problem is great.
317
00:58:47.656 --> 00:58:58.236
I think it's one of the kind of great crimes of humanity right now that there are a billion people living in extreme poverty, so it is hard not to be drawn to that as one of the big problems facing our generation.
318
00:58:58.746 --> 00:59:08.556
And there are obviously others, climate change and so on. But the thing about focusing on poverty was it did feel so addressable. You could see it at the individual level.
319
00:59:09.236 --> 00:59:18.116
You, you can sit with someone in poverty and you can help them escape poverty. And I'm an impatient person, [chuckles] and I, and I like seeing results quickly.
320
00:59:19.256 --> 00:59:27.736
And to be able to see that impact forces you to think about what could you do... For seeing that impact at the individual level forces you to ask the question at a global level.
321
00:59:28.436 --> 00:59:38.276
A- and what you realize quickly i- is that this is a finite problem. Every person you take out of poverty is one less- Mm... person in poverty. And it's tautological to say that,
322
00:59:39.256 --> 00:59:52.336
but it's really important to realize, like, we could count down to the end of poverty- Mm... and should be doing that. And once you realize that, it's hard not to focus on that opportunity. Now,
323
00:59:53.456 --> 01:00:06.136
I was also i- in some ways kind of at the right confluence of things. So I happened to be doing a PhD at a time when academics first started studying what worked- Mm... in poverty reduction. Mm.
324
01:00:06.536 --> 01:00:15.256
And it turned out a lot of what we thought worked didn't work. Giving people money did work. And at the second part was the mobile money revolution, right?
325
01:00:15.516 --> 01:00:22.546
The ability to send money directly to someone's phone is something relatively new. That didn't exist before the kind of mid-2000s.
326
01:00:23.296 --> 01:00:34.036
Sending physical dollar bills across oceans is not easy, and turns out easy to get robbed, easy to lose money, easy to get it wrong. So you have these two threads. One, the evidence.
327
01:00:34.316 --> 01:00:45.155
Two, the technology that actually- Mm... makes this possible for the first time, and it just seemed tremendously obvious to do. We had no intent of doing it at the first, at the beginning.
328
01:00:45.196 --> 01:00:51.636
We were just looking to give away some of our own money. We're like, "This is the way we wanna give our money." Mm. Like, "Let's call a bunch of people and see- Mm... who's gonna do it for us."
329
01:00:52.636 --> 01:00:57.876
And nobody was able to do it for us, so we did it the most mechanical way we could.
330
01:00:57.936 --> 01:01:09.306
We got on planes and walked around refugee settlements and IDP camps in Kenya, asking people for their phone number to send money.And that's how GiveDirectly started, and it scaled from there. Wow.
331
01:01:10.346 --> 01:01:22.106
There's something about that conflux of you're not gonna be a doctor. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm the guy who swerves away from squirrels that are already dead, to be clear. Like, like, I can't handle the blood either.
332
01:01:22.166 --> 01:01:29.876
It's not pretty. You're not gonna be a doctor. You know, you, you tried to be a teacher. You got to do some travel. You are a public school kid, so, so, the, uh...
333
01:01:29.926 --> 01:01:40.526
I'm, I'm a huge believer that there's, there's something very fundamental, especially in the formative years, about being exposed and, and exposing yourself to, to such a different stratification- Mm-hmm...
334
01:01:40.536 --> 01:01:49.746
of, of life wh- wherever you might be. But, but th- there's something so compelling about that conflux. You know, I was thinking about this the other day.
335
01:01:49.786 --> 01:02:00.246
There's a, there's a writer, an environmental writer for Bloomberg Green, which is their sort of climate-focused section, who I've had on the show a couple times, just brilliant gentleman named Akshat Rathi.
336
01:02:00.886 --> 01:02:12.276
And he had this tweet a couple weeks ago that was essentially where he realized our age, and I'm, I'm 38, I think, going on 90- [laughs]...
337
01:02:12.276 --> 01:02:23.406
and, and that if, if we need to decarbonize, you know, as soon as possible, but definitely by this 2050 number, oh, then if I'm this age, like, that is the work of my lifetime. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
338
01:02:23.766 --> 01:02:34.846
And while we needed to start so many of these things decades ago when, when we knew, when Exxon already knew and all these places, there are some things that are available to us now that weren't before.
339
01:02:34.926 --> 01:02:45.406
We can use satellites to actually look and see- Yeah... and measure forests and deforestation and, and methane leaks. Like, literally being able to find methane leaks is, like, six months old, you know, these things.
340
01:02:45.766 --> 01:02:54.206
But then a company, it, it, it expands overnight and somebody goes like, "Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna build on that and we're gonna track those," you know, for, for whatever the purposes are.
341
01:02:54.926 --> 01:03:02.166
But there's something to look at those, you know? It's like a, a podcast. [laughs] I always joke, like, my children are gonna say, "When the world was on the line, what did you do?"
342
01:03:02.276 --> 01:03:08.816
And I'm gonna be like, "I had a, I had a podcast, you know? You're, you're welcome." [laughs] But, you know, it is a medium that I think works and is helpful.
343
01:03:08.926 --> 01:03:19.295
But things like GiveDirectly, like you said, it is not advantageous to try to ship buckets of cash over s- over literally on boats and in planes. Uh, but, but these- Mm-hmm...
344
01:03:19.306 --> 01:03:30.006
networks that exists and these cheap mobile phones that exist to be able to do it on the continent of Africa, which, which probably has a higher prevalence than it does in America at this point, you know, is, is now.
345
01:03:30.066 --> 01:03:41.366
And so if you're someone that can understand that and speak to that and, and, and use that data that works and has the why of why to do it- Mm-hmm... you almost have to do it, don't you? Yeah, and it's an opportunity.
346
01:03:41.986 --> 01:03:46.806
And I think you're doing a lot, Quinn. Oh, well, that's not what this is. I think you're helping us find- That's not a therapy session. I think you're... No, I- Thank you, though.
347
01:03:47.166 --> 01:03:57.566
[laughs] Oh, you're helping us find the next generation of folks that are gonna help deliver cash with the job listing board. A- a- and if there's anything people take away, you, y- you individually may...
348
01:03:57.626 --> 01:04:13.146
Not y- you, Quinn, but any of us individually are not going to end poverty. But you can do that- Mm-hmm... for one person. Like, go- Mm-hmm. Sure... donate the $32 or whatever it is a month to one person. And that's it.
349
01:04:13.186 --> 01:04:22.286
And, and then you get one or two of your friends to do the same, and maybe if there's just enough of us to do that, we can end poverty in our lifetime. And like you said- Mm-hmm...
350
01:04:22.456 --> 01:04:29.556
man, and, and maybe it's just the way specific people are built, but I'm, I'm the way you are, and this is why I love... This is horrible. This is why I like doing dishes- [laughs]...
351
01:04:29.566 --> 01:04:36.806
because there's a stack of dishes, and in the end- Me too... there's no dishes. [laughs] And I can do... I c- I can do this thing.
352
01:04:36.966 --> 01:04:49.526
And you said this, this, this poverty problem, because it is a choice wherever we are, and because it is so functional and measurable, you can look at this number and go, "Oh, I can, I can...
353
01:04:49.586 --> 01:04:57.686
I have the opportunity to make that go down," and get all these stories that Teti is telling us. You'll probably hear one one-millionth of them.
354
01:04:58.126 --> 01:05:08.486
But just, it's like this reinforcing flywheel of I'm making this, this measurable number go down, but we're getting these stories and what else is out there, and you just... you, you, you have to do that, right? Yeah.
355
01:05:08.546 --> 01:05:22.966
So I'm curious, in, in an organization like GiveDirectly, and, and we talked about the job board a little bit, but, but in general, sort of a, a brief overview, what, what roles exist in an organization like yours in 2021 and for the next five, 10 years?
356
01:05:22.985 --> 01:05:32.346
And I guess, uh, you know, are... have those changed over the past few years? Are they going to change? You know, where, where are you, where are you looking to attract folks?
357
01:05:32.446 --> 01:05:41.346
What do you need or, or what are the things you don't know you need yet? If you can- Mm.... fill that in. Oh, everywhere. If you're talented and you care, I'm almost sure there's a role for you.
358
01:05:41.366 --> 01:05:49.566
[laughs] A- a- and we'll help you navigate it. Sure. I mean, we've got over 500 people now. Wow. I forget how many jobs are posted- That's incredible... online.
359
01:05:49.646 --> 01:06:18.716
And it's everything from someone in Liberia helping deliver cash to someone on Teti's team helping audit the fact that it's an honest process and effective process, to people help kind of raising the word on the growth side, whether it's talking to individual donors or help building the website and apps that are going to help us attract people, to the engineers and data specialists that make sure we're targeting the right people- Mm...
360
01:06:18.726 --> 01:06:23.906
and that we're keeping track of everything to make sure we know exactly where your money is and can track it along the way.
361
01:06:24.746 --> 01:06:34.956
I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but that just gives you a sense of the range of, of folks on our team. But, but also, also important, Michael, to what you're saying about what's available is
362
01:06:35.886 --> 01:06:43.526
we have a very open organization, and we know that our horizon is not exhausted yet. So as we continue- Mm...
363
01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:55.286
to serve people who need our services most, we know that the terrain is going to adjust and change in different ways. You never know. We may just need new caliber of people.
364
01:06:55.346 --> 01:07:05.766
So I think visiting our job postings, visiting our website- Mm-hmm... will be a- the best way for people to catch up with what's next on the radar for GiveDirectly.
365
01:07:06.046 --> 01:07:13.005
There are things, there are roles we did not have five years ago. Today, they are very- Sure, yeah... important roles within the organization.
366
01:07:13.106 --> 01:07:28.485
So that evolution also is a very important thing for our listeners to know.I think that's so helpful because I've talked about a lot, and I know, I think this is how I, I, I've th- sort of where the, the, the least this job board focus kind of came from, which is certainly nothing unique.
367
01:07:28.536 --> 01:07:31.186
It's just our, our prism of how we're framing these things is.
368
01:07:31.206 --> 01:07:42.466
But we just get this question, whether it's climate or COVID, especially in the past year, or, or it's Black maternal health in the US or whatever it might be, people just go... They, they hear, they start...
369
01:07:43.846 --> 01:07:48.246
Whether you've ignored a large systemic problem because you d- don't have that lived experience- Mm...
370
01:07:48.256 --> 01:07:57.286
or you've just started to heard of it, whatever, at some point you get to this point of, or they listen to this and they listen to, no offense Michael, but they listen to Teti tell these stories, and they go,
371
01:07:58.455 --> 01:08:10.606
"What can I do?" And when you say, "If you're, if you're smart and you care, we'll find a place for you," that's the equivalent of when I go to people and say, "Uh, well, what can you do, Michael?" Mm-hmm. You know?
372
01:08:10.746 --> 01:08:18.606
Like, "What do you give a shit about?" Yeah. "What are you good at? What were you interested in, in grade school? Or, or what drives you on a humanities level?"
373
01:08:18.646 --> 01:08:27.056
Because we need all, we, we need all of it, you know, on the grander scale. Yeah. But especially at a place like GiveDirectly, like you said, from, you know, purely auditing to technology to- Yeah...
374
01:08:27.056 --> 01:08:33.226
organizational to remote stuff around the ground, and I think that's attractive to folks as they try to find their place in it.
375
01:08:33.306 --> 01:08:42.206
If, you know, it's one thing to be attracted to the story, but it, it can be hard to find your way into something if you're just like- Yeah... "Well, there's this thing, but I, I, I w- who needs me? I'm a designer."
376
01:08:42.286 --> 01:08:54.126
Mm-hmm. You know? So I think that's probably- Totally. And everyone has a role to p- play, right? A- and may- maybe there's not a job. Maybe have your friends over for dinner and talk about giving people money- Mm-hmm...
377
01:08:54.176 --> 01:09:04.216
to make them less poor. I can promise you it'll be an interesting dinner conversation. Sure. And at least one person will raise the possibility they'll just drink the money. Follow us o- o- on Twitter. Mm-hmm.
378
01:09:04.216 --> 01:09:13.026
Share a story or two with someone that may not know as much- Mm-hmm... about what's happening. You can do small things, and they all matter. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the two...
379
01:09:13.106 --> 01:09:24.446
I'm gonna get to these last couple questions that we ask everybody before I get you guys out of here, and I thank you so much for your, for your time and your patience, especially Teti, as you, we waited so diligently for Michael to restart his computer.
380
01:09:25.026 --> 01:09:39.606
So it seems like the two places for folks to go are, is it givedirectly.org? And then what was the other one? Was it live.give directly for the stories? Live.give direct- directly.org or follow us at Give Directly. Okay.
381
01:09:39.686 --> 01:09:47.735
Mm-hmm. That's awesome. That's, that's super helpful. So guys, these are the questions we ask everybody. Y- you can answer however you see fit. Mm-hmm.
382
01:09:47.746 --> 01:09:58.786
Could be brief, could be short, could be longer, whatever, whatever you'd like. When was the first time in your life when you ha- realized you had the power of change or the power to do something meaningful?
383
01:09:59.066 --> 01:10:09.066
What was that first moment? So some time back when I was in high school, in, I would say high school would be equivalent of grade 10.
384
01:10:09.646 --> 01:10:25.326
I, I think it was just, like, a light bulb moment, and the power to, to change doesn't mean you have the resourcing. It's more of the inner conviction that you can actually do something. And- Sure...
385
01:10:25.446 --> 01:10:38.826
I did not, you know, figure out, like, whether there was a job I was going to be doing in my life or that I was ever going to have money or the knowledge to change the world, but I knew that there was something I needed to do.
386
01:10:40.086 --> 01:10:48.346
And the drive at that point I remember was a journey that I made from home. I had come from home.
387
01:10:48.706 --> 01:11:00.506
I had stayed home for, like, two weeks, and people were in school, and when I came in, so much had gone on in my absence, and that moment, it's, it's really strange, but it's the reality.
388
01:11:01.106 --> 01:11:13.026
It hit me when I was in the bathrooms, and I said, "You know what? You've got to think about how you can change this world. Things cannot continue like this." That was my light bulb moment.
389
01:11:13.526 --> 01:11:22.286
Things, the other things that have followed have followed organically, but that moment was a moment of conviction for me. I love that, and, and, and you're right.
390
01:11:22.446 --> 01:11:40.746
It's important that we, especially for a lot of folks who want to do, as we say around here, do better or do better, better, which I think is exactly what GiveDirectly does, that just because you have the conviction doesn't necessarily you have the means, but that doesn't mean it also can't be transformative in the moment.
391
01:11:42.166 --> 01:11:46.246
Michael, what's going on? [laughs] Still thinking.
392
01:11:46.706 --> 01:11:58.225
No, I, I, it is hard to think of a single moment, and I think for me it's more about watching what other people have done and what impact they've had on my life- Mm-hmm... and others, to be totally honest. Mm-hmm.
393
01:11:58.366 --> 01:12:04.426
I, I think one of the most powerful things I remember growing up, my mom taught pre-K,
394
01:12:05.486 --> 01:12:13.106
so she had real, real young kids, and they would test quickly, or not quickly, they, they would test shortly thereafter for the gifted program and- Mm-hmm...
395
01:12:13.196 --> 01:12:18.706
her class always did really well, and they read, and they would go to the gifted program and- Mm...
396
01:12:18.746 --> 01:12:26.366
and you could follow their trajectory of their lives being so different, and I would remember seeing, meeting some of the kids later on in high school, later in high school, college,
397
01:12:27.426 --> 01:12:40.146
and saying, "Wow, just one year with one person-" Oh... had this dramatic of an impact on these individuals' lives. Mm-hmm. And if that- Wow... doesn't convince you that you can also, I, I, I don't know what does.
398
01:12:40.726 --> 01:12:49.966
So I don't remember the moment, but I remember that feeling. Wow. That's pretty awesome. That's pretty awesome. We need to pay teachers millions of dollars.
399
01:12:50.506 --> 01:13:01.726
Who is someone in your life that's positively impacted your work in the past six months? I'll tell a story on this one. I w- I won't mention the individuals yet because I'm not sure I, I can. Okay.
400
01:13:02.206 --> 01:13:13.046
When we started GiveDirectly, we pitched google.org on a project for, I think it was, I think we asked for maybe $100,000, $200,000. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
401
01:13:13.526 --> 01:13:25.358
And, [laughs] and they said, "Guys, you really do need to think a bit bigger." [laughs] "Can you ask for more money?"And your target shouldn't be moving a few million dollars to the poor.
402
01:13:25.398 --> 01:13:38.678
It should be moving a few billion. Yeah, sure. So that was a decade ago. Fa- f- fast-forward 10 years, a- and recently a, a few individuals have challenged me to think even bigger than the billion.
403
01:13:39.258 --> 01:13:49.118
So GiveDirectly as an organization ha- has raised, I think, over 700 million now, so we're approaching the billion. Wow. But they said, "What would it take to end poverty?
404
01:13:50.478 --> 01:13:56.038
Let's think about the resources billionaires alone have. Forget the world." Sure. "Let's put those all together. What would it take?"
405
01:13:57.198 --> 01:14:04.988
And we can quibble over the numbers, but you start to look at the numbers and say, "Wow, if we just took all the wealth of billionaires alone," let's just be billionaires,
406
01:14:05.998 --> 01:14:16.418
"put it in a fund, and just gave out the dividends to the poor, we could do this." Sure. Like, this is imminently doable, and let's take a crack at that.
407
01:14:16.458 --> 01:14:32.698
And we don't know what that looks like yet, but challenging us to think bigger and think about that count- counter and taking it from the billion to zero over the next decade or so, that person, I think, changed not only the way I think about it, but hopefully changed the organization and what we're able to do more broadly.
408
01:14:32.898 --> 01:14:44.338
I think I might have an idea of, of what you're talking about because I read a letter posted online a couple days ago by a significant person like that who listed a couple hundred organizations- Yeah...
409
01:14:44.348 --> 01:14:53.328
that she gave an incredible amount of money to. She has certainly changed it. It, there, there are more, there, there are many tremendously generous people, and one thing- I can imagine...
410
01:14:53.328 --> 01:15:04.278
I should say about GiveDirectly donors, the, in many ways there's nothing more humble than giving cash. Mm-hmm. And it turns out that a lot of our donors are some of the humblest, most generous people I know.
411
01:15:04.318 --> 01:15:12.398
They don't want their names out there. They're anonymous. They're quiet, and it makes it more challenging for the promotional stuff- [laughs] Sure... but gosh, it's awesome.
412
01:15:12.758 --> 01:15:21.508
That's special, though, you know, when people just, they don't need their name on a building. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah, we're the opposite of the name on the building. [laughs] Yeah.
413
01:15:21.508 --> 01:15:29.278
[laughs] If you don't wanna put your name on the building- Go to GiveDirectly.org... you wanna help a lot of people, please give directly. [laughs] Teti, is there somebody out there?
414
01:15:30.157 --> 01:15:43.098
Yeah, I think for me it's not, it's not mind-blowing in billions like what I'm hearing from Michael, but definitely something that has really influenced, one, the way I think, and also the way I do my work.
415
01:15:43.178 --> 01:15:49.798
It's, you know, not, like, somebody I've met, but somebody I've read an article that he's written.
416
01:15:50.958 --> 01:15:59.998
So earlier this year I was reading an article about some of the things that, you know, determine the success of the people we see succeeding,
417
01:16:01.058 --> 01:16:18.418
and the one inspiration I got from there is the breadth of knowledge that they have in reading a lot and their conviction not to be boxed in specialization. And, you know, at that point I figured, "Oh my God,
418
01:16:19.358 --> 01:16:25.178
we are working in a sector where you cannot actually say you're specializing in anything," but we can only do well
419
01:16:26.498 --> 01:16:45.058
once we know the different facets of life and explore the different ways in which we can do good in different, at different times, without having to say, like, you know, "I am in this sector," or, "I am good in doing work in this way."
420
01:16:45.518 --> 01:16:55.258
And that was just... I, and I remember I was reading this article at night, and I couldn't sleep. Like, I sent it... I have, I have two daughters, Michael.
421
01:16:55.268 --> 01:17:08.338
You know I have two adult daughters, and I said, "Guys, you have to read this. You have to read this because if you're going to be a change tomorrow for this world, this is for you to read." That's incredible.
422
01:17:08.478 --> 01:17:16.078
Will you send that to me so I can put it in our- Yes... show notes and share it with everyone? I'm going, I'm going to send it to you. I'm going to send it to you. Awesome. Yeah. Very inspirational, really. Thank you.
423
01:17:16.198 --> 01:17:23.718
That's, I, I totally empathize with the reading something at night and sitting there and going like, "Oh, no, I have to, I have to do something about this right now."
424
01:17:24.708 --> 01:17:30.698
[laughs] It's a real problem when you're trying to get to sleep. Yeah. All right, last two are a little, little more lighthearted and fun.
425
01:17:30.858 --> 01:17:40.037
Teti, to start with you, as you're on your retreat, hiding from, from the hippos, as you said- [laughs] Yes... who are not as dangerous as advertised apparently, what is your self-care, as they put it?
426
01:17:40.058 --> 01:17:50.508
W- I- in between all of your incredible work and, and this difficult year, what do you do to take care of yourself and, and make it easier? 'Cause I know there's a lot of folks out there who are...
427
01:17:50.538 --> 01:17:58.338
I- it's, when you're doing NGO work or things like that, it's easy to make it your entire life 24/7. How do you, how do you take a step back?
428
01:17:58.378 --> 01:18:10.098
Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I'm sure this is going to be surprising for Michael also. So, and this- [laughs] [laughs] I'm intrigued, Teti. Yes, I know you're waiting to hear, hear about this, Michael.
429
01:18:10.478 --> 01:18:20.868
But, you know, when we did COVID work, like, that was one year when we lifted real loads of work, real loads of work. Mm-hmm.
430
01:18:20.888 --> 01:18:28.838
And I remember working from home, you don't want to work next to your partner, and my husband would come where I'm working. He's like, "Caroline, wake up." No, no, no. "You've been sitting too long.
431
01:18:29.298 --> 01:18:32.427
You can't do this for yourself. It's going to be too dangerous." Mm-hmm.
432
01:18:32.918 --> 01:18:45.937
This year I said, "I'm going to create something that will make me wake up and not touch my computer and not touch my phone," and today I am a potter. Okay. Michael, I'm making pottery. What? I know. That's so cool.
433
01:18:46.018 --> 01:18:55.518
I know. I should send you some- That's awesome... I should send you some of the pots I've made. That's amazing, Teti. That's such a cool thing to choose. Yeah, and I can just...
434
01:18:55.548 --> 01:19:03.838
[laughs] I, a- and, and, you know, I make sure, like, when I'm doing my team debriefs Monday evening, I give them an update of milestones with my pottery.
435
01:19:04.248 --> 01:19:12.358
[laughs] So now they're also giving me updates of the things they're doing, the people who are doing guitar, the people who are singing, and they're like, "Okay, guys, let's see where are we going to get with this."
436
01:19:12.758 --> 01:19:24.268
And just love the fact that there is something that keeps me off work deliberately- Sure... but also gives me an opportunity, like with potter, it's almost like a meditative moment. Mm.
437
01:19:24.298 --> 01:19:37.975
You touch something and you can use it to have this deep thinking moment. Mm-hmm.I love that. Michael- Thank you... are you also a potter? [laughs] No. No, no. I- Sad to hear not...
438
01:19:37.975 --> 01:19:49.166
self-care for me starts at, it starts at bedtime. I, I don't read deeply emotional things right before bed. [laughs] Smart choice. I do sleep eight hours every night. I- Wow. Mine's less interesting than pottery.
439
01:19:49.346 --> 01:19:59.586
I do anything related to water. Kayak, swim, surf, take a very long shower. [laughs] It's all in the mix to, to replenish.
440
01:20:00.136 --> 01:20:12.666
But I do, the, the reality is, uh, we, we joke, but I, I do find the work more motivating than anything. Sure. Mm-hmm. Like, there's few things I like than kind of getting stuff done on a weekend day and yeah.
441
01:20:13.166 --> 01:20:23.546
That's awesome. I get it. It's hard. It's a hard one. That's really cool. So your last- I've seen you going to the water sometimes, Michael. I've seen you with your tools. I know, I know. Go [laughs] those moments.
442
01:20:23.606 --> 01:20:29.346
Frances sees me hiding away in, in Jinja, Uganda, or somewhere else. Ex- yeah. [laughs] I love it. Last one, team.
443
01:20:29.566 --> 01:20:40.846
What is a book you've read this year that has opened your mind to a topic you hadn't considered before, or that changed your thinking in some way? We've got a whole list of recommendations we, we've got from past guests.
444
01:20:40.886 --> 01:20:53.405
We throw it on a big list, so something like that. The Obama... I, I enjoyed the Obama book recently, but the one, uh, I'm sure others have said that The Biggest Bluff i- is a, it's a great book about poker and life.
445
01:20:54.026 --> 01:21:02.966
Oh, I've gotta do that one. Mm-hmm. We, uh, we have a fair number of poker supporters, which has been awesome. It's, it's an empirical field, obviously.
446
01:21:03.006 --> 01:21:13.606
They've been big supporters of GiveDirectly, and, and it's a neat book. It's opened my eyes to the world of poker and made me think about life through the lens of poker in a way that I hadn't before, so. Super cool.
447
01:21:14.026 --> 01:21:15.446
Wow, I want to read that.
448
01:21:16.946 --> 01:21:32.086
So, there's this book that I've picked from the bookshelves, and when I went to read it, my intention was to sharpen my skills in the work that we do, which Michael knows, which is auditing anything that could be going wrong in our programs.
449
01:21:32.386 --> 01:21:47.166
Mm-hmm. The book is called The Art of Mind Reading. Mm. And, you know, so I, I thought that, you know, it would give me this ability to be able to know people deeper- Mm-hmm...
450
01:21:47.206 --> 01:22:00.646
and be able to understand the unspoken when I meet people. But it ended up teaching me a lot about emotional intelligence instead. So- Interesting... it's, it's, yeah, it's such a mind-blowing book.
451
01:22:01.066 --> 01:22:09.366
I, I think I'm in the second cycle. I'm reading it again. Oh, wow. Those are the best. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. The Art of Mind Reading. Awesome.
452
01:22:09.566 --> 01:22:17.376
Well, we will throw both of those on the, on the list for sure and share them with everyone. Well, I have kept you for just an enormous part of your day.
453
01:22:17.406 --> 01:22:21.906
Tati, you're on this beautiful retreat, and it's gotta be almost 10 o'clock at night there. I apologize.
454
01:22:21.915 --> 01:22:44.786
[laughs] But I cannot thank you both enough for not just your time here, but obviously for everything you're doing to empower people who are unjustly below the poverty line, as we define it, to empower themselves to, to, to do what they need to do to take care of themselves, which is about as powerful as it gets.
455
01:22:45.486 --> 01:22:53.466
So thank you so much. Thank you for doing it for so impactfully and efficiently and for sharing your stories of, of the organization and, and why you do it.
456
01:22:54.046 --> 01:23:03.086
And I, I think folks are gonna really be very heartened by, by what's possible. That's very kind, Quinn, and thanks for doing what you do.
457
01:23:03.446 --> 01:23:14.226
It's, it's, it's so important to just get the word out there and open these conversations, so. Least we can do. [outro jingle] That's it for this week's conversation.
458
01:23:14.686 --> 01:23:28.186
For more conversations, scroll back in the feed or visit podcast.importantnotimportant.com to search by name, topic, whatever. Thanks for sharing, thanks for leaving a review, and thanks for giving a shit.
459
01:23:32.346 --> 01:23:50.126
[outro jingle]