2 Secrets to Handling a Narcissist: A Toolkit for Dealing With Toxic Behavior at Work, Dating, Marriage, and Family (With World-Renowned Dr.

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Hey, it's Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Okay,
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how you doing? I hope you're doing great because you're
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gonna be better after this episode today, and I hope
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you got a seatbelt because you're gonna wanna buckle up
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for this one. And you might even wanna get your
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pen out. You're definitely gonna need to bookmark this. We
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are gonna have a rocking... and powerful conversation together. I
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cannot wait because you will not believe who is in
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the house. We have the one and only Dr. Ramani back. Now,
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if you don't know who Dr. Ramani is, that's okay,
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you will now. She is the world's leading expert on narcissism.
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She's a best-selling author, professor, and host of the hit podcast,
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Navigating Narcissism. Now, a couple weeks ago, I asked her
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to come on the podcast to teach you and me
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the five warning signs that we gotta know so that
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we know when we're dealing with a narcissistic personality. And
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more importantly, she gave us tools on how you can
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protect yourself. I personally had so many takeaways from that episode,
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especially something that I now call the Chicago rule. And
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here's the Chicago rule. Look, you can't change the weather
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in Chicago. And no matter what you do, you cannot
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change a narcissist. That's why you need tools to protect yourself.
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If you haven't listened to that episode about the five
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warning signs of dealing with a narcissist, don't worry. It
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is there for you. You can listen to it once
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this episode is over. And I would actually encourage you
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to do that. And here's why. That episode was so
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powerful and so helpful to people around the world that
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you guys made that one of the most shared episodes
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on all of Spotify the week that it launched. And
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not only that, you flooded us. I mean, you avalanched
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our website with questions about narcissism, dating a narcissist, narcissism
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in the workplace. What if my kid is a narcissist?
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What if I'm a narcissist? And one of the things
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that I noticed is that so many of you realized,
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holy cow, I'm in a relationship with one. And now
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you got questions. Should I keep my mom and my
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dad in my life or not? What do I do
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if one of my kids is a narcissist? Now, here's
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the thing. You definitely want to listen all the way
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to the end of this episode because it's really easy
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for someone to give you soundbite advice on TikTok or
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Instagram and just be like, cut them out of your life.
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But today you've got the world's leading expert sitting in
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a chair at the table with you, and she's going
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to walk you through adaptive strategies. to improve your current
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situation while you are working toward making bigger changes in
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your life. And that's really important because this is not
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only a helpful conversation about narcissism, especially when you find
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that you're in a relationship with one, but it's also
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a practical and honest one that you're going to be
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able to use immediately after you hear this.
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So I can't wait to jump in. Let's get right
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to it. Dr. Ramani, thank you for coming back.
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Thank you.
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Here's where I want to start because we got a
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lot of questions about this after doing our first episode
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about parental narcissism and growing up with a narcissistic parent
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or sibling in your house, how it affects you as adult,
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how to heal from it. A lot of people want
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to know, am I more prone to dating a narcissist
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if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?
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Well, it certainly sets you up with the vulnerability because
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it almost normalizes some of it. And it also takes away,
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it robs a person from their sense of self and
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the fact that they even have the right to express
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their needs. Well, that's a perfect trap because now if
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you're not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need
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isn't gonna meet them anyhow, you can easily get caught,
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repeat that same trauma bonded dance of justifying this person's behavior,
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feeling that it's your fault. Like it really, it sort
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of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner.
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Because it's familiar from childhood? It's familiar.
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And it's also a, it becomes almost a psychologically a
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way of relating to the world. In fact, I've worked
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with more than a few survivors who said, you know,
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I met a healthy person. They were kind and empathic
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and generous of spirit and believed in me. And I
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convinced myself I was bored with them.
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Wow.
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That's so true.
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Like, it is true that there are lots of, like,
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we all have a friend or sibling who You're like,
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they're such a nice person. The person that you're supposed
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to be with is right in front of you.
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And I tell them, if you've come through a narcissistic
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family system and you meet someone, and boring is not
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even the right word. I hate to say it, it's
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that you're not triggered by them, right?
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But you feel like it's not.
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It's not what you think love is supposed to be,
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which is exciting. But think about what your life was
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as a child. It was a roller coaster.
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Good days, bad days. I'm going to win them over.
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Today's the day. Oh my gosh.
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Who's going to come home today? They have a candy
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bar in their briefcase for me. It's a good day.
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Like that kind of up and down and, and just anticipation.
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almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by
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that rollercoastery vibe is what you've conflated with love. So
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when a survivor tells me, I've met someone like, I
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don't know, it's not all the zaza zoo. I'm like, okay,
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this might be a keeper. Let's just keep going. Sadly,
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what I've witnessed, Mel, is that many people had to
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go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship. And then
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after having to leave that and shut it down, were
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they then able to hold space for someone who treated
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them with kindness and generosity?
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It breaks their hearts.
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They think, what would my life have been if this
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was the kind of person I had been with all along?
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But it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that
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because nobody's teaching this in school. People learn about this
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after they've been hurt by it.
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Well, and you know, the thing that you just said
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that I think is really important is whatever that roller
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coaster is, was that was your experience of love because
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you were a child that's what you know and so
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it makes a lot of sense to me so for
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those folks that are listening we got a we got
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this question a ton what well first let me ask
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this so if you listen to the first episode or
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you already know that you grew up in a household
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with a narcissistic parent what are the few things that
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you need to do for your own healing so that
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you can be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy,
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even though you've never been with somebody who is.
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Number one is being willing to see it clearly. This
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is a painful, like it's that painful awareness of, oh
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my gosh, my parent.
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Is narcissistic.
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My parent is antagonistic. I have a parent who has
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no empathy because it almost is like leaning into this
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sort of, a lot of people say who had narcissistic
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parents said, I felt a certain shame about my childhood.
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Like I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I
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didn't know what it was. No kid wants to be
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the odd kid out, right? Nobody wants to be the
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kid who has the fighting parents or something's not quite
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right in their home. And I think with people who
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grew up in those kinds of homes, it was sort
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of like fake, like to the world, like maybe your
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friends would come over and your parent would actually be
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really charming. But then when everyone was out of the house,
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your parent was a rager. that kind of inconsistency really
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would leave people feeling like, what is wrong with me?
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So it becomes, it really becomes doing, it is about
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therapy or doing the deep dive of being willing to
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sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye,
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no matter how painful it is, that just because you
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came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged.
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It's not an indictment of you, which unfortunately a lot
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of people feel. And then to really take a good
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hard look at, Where has this hijacked you? Where has
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this robbed you of your autonomy, of your identity, of
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who you are? Like do the hard work. Some of
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that can even be done, if not just through therapy,
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through journaling, just being aware of where that happened, how
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you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you
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didn't even do wrong, how you're constantly putting yourself down,
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self gaslighting yourself. Like, oh, I don't know what I'm
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talking about. Don't listen to me. How many people do
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that reflexively? That's a throwback to that childhood. It's about
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getting your house in order. before you start going out
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there and basically replicating those cycles. Unfortunately, that's not what
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people are taught to do. And a lot of people
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in their early 20s don't have the time, the volition
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or the money to go into therapy. Yeah.
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Are there personality types that are more prone to like
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having a narcissist come into their lives?
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Well, I think that there's definitely a person who comes
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from a narcissistic childhood. There's a vulnerability there. Listen, I'm
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going to say this, Mel, to make this almost as
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an easy question to answer.
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Everyone is.
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There's not a person out there who's not. And I'll
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tell you why. Because at first blush, narcissistic people are charming, charismatic,
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curious people. confident, comforting even. They feel like they can
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take care of things. So if these people were coming
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in on date one screaming at you and cursing at
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you probably not gonna be a date too that there's
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a whole phenomenon of love bombing.
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Well okay we'll get to love bombing in a minute
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but how the hell are you supposed to spot one
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then if you're dating Because this is where the trauma
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bond becomes a problem.
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So what the trauma bond results in, not just that
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alternation between good and bad, but you justify the bad days.
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Right?
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So, oh, dad just had a bad day at work.
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Mommy's just really tired.
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We're all pushing her to, and then you internalize that blame.
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Daddy had a bad day at work.
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I have to be good. You know, mom's just really tired.
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I have to help.
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So like they're trying to, but they justify, you justify, justify.
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Think of everyone in a narcissistic relationship. He had a
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tough childhood, has a competitive job. The deals haven't been
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coming through the way they want. They just want what's
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best for us. I mean, the justifications go on forever.
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But the justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place. And
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that's another core pillar of that trauma bond, right? So justify, justify, justify.
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And so everyone's vulnerable because you meet someone and you're
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attracted to them and they are charming and interesting or
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whatever it is that appeals to you about them. And
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they stay that way four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks,
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three months sometimes. now you're in, you're falling in love
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with this person.
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Now the stuff.
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Starts to gurgle up those, those proverbial red flags. And
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what are the proverbial red flags when you're dating?
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Okay.
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The red flags might be things like, um, getting snappy
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when you give them a little bit of feedback, um,
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being really entitled when you go to a restaurant with them.
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So watch how they treat waiters. Watch how they treat waiters.
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Watch how they treat anyone, how they talk about other people. Um,
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contemptuous dismissal. How, how do they get along with your friends? Um,
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It may be that one of your friends, the one
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friend that might have called them out on someone might
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be the one friend they say, you know, I don't
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think that friend's good for you kind of thing. So
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those things will pop up. But here's the thing. Mel
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was talking with someone recently on my own podcast. And
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in her situation, she didn't have a single six years
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of marriage, not one red flag. I'm going to make
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people listen to my podcast to hear what happened when
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the red flags came piling in. But Deb Summons, six years.
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She's like, I am being honest with you. And people
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who knew me would say the same thing. There was
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no red flags. So everyone, I'm saying this for one reason.
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Why? A lot of people blame themselves. They'll say.
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That one day, whether it's one year in, two years in,
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or 10 years in, the narcissism shows up. There must
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have been red flags. I didn't see them. I must
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be an idiot. This is my fault. This is my
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fault for not seeing the red flags. And I really
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want to tell everyone, while some of them may be
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out there, some of them may be humming at such
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a low level that you're not noticing them. Or they're
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so reminiscent of what you grew up with. They're like,
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oh my God, this is nothing compared to my mother
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kind of thing. But in the vast majority of cases,
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the red flags were there. And it's a combination of
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they either people didn't know they were red flags, people
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justified them, or people blamed themselves immediately. Like, I shouldn't
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have criticized their sweater. You know, even though it wasn't
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a criticism, they quickly justify. But everyone is vulnerable. Now,
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are some people more vulnerable?
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Certainly.
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People who grew up with a narcissistic parent or parents,
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they're vulnerable. People with histories of trauma who already are
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sort of might be sort of, that can often result
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in self-devaluation and other phenomena that would lead a person
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less likely to call out the red flags. People who,
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this is gonna be a surprising one, people who come
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from very happy families with two loving parents and just happy, happy,
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those folks are vulnerable because they can't even believe this exists.
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So when there's a red flag, they'll often think like, well,
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we just loved each other through this stuff. There ain't
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no loving anyone through a red flag. So they might
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turn to that. There are people who are going through
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periods of transitions. So like on the rebound, people will
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sometimes meet narcissistic people. When a person moves to a
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new city, has moved to a new job, has experienced
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a major loss, these are people who are already more vulnerable.
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And the idea that someone new is coming into your life,
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especially let's say new city, oh wow this is great
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i'm meeting someone and you kind of go into the
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rom-com mindset rather than like this is moving a little
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bit quickly that kind of thing people who are in
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a rush are vulnerable people like i got my biological
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clock is ticking all my friends are getting married that
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kind of thing those are folks who may be vulnerable
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saying okay i'm just gonna have to settle here because
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i really want to be a parent and this is
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who's in front of me right now and i can't
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tell you how many people have gotten roped in narcissistic
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relationships because they felt a time clock ticking around marriage,
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around settling down, around having a child. They really felt
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like it's, if I don't do this, I don't want
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to end up like my friend who ended up never
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meeting anyone and regrets that. I tell you, one thing
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they regret is meeting that person.
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Exactly.
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And so all of these kinds of other sorts of
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vulnerability factors that a person can bring in can increase
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the vulnerability beyond what we all have. And I think
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that the idea that all of us that, that somebody
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is not vulnerable. I mean, again, the unicorns out there
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are the people who really, really like almost see it
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right away.
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Listen, I do this.
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This is what I do. I'm still, I'm still, still played.
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People still come into my life. I'm getting better at it,
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but to get better at it, Mel, I almost had
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to become, I feel at times there's a part of
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me that's become kind of closed off.
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So is there one or two red flags that for you,
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are just non-negotiable. Like the second you see that one,
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you are like, nope. Because when you talk about being
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closed off, because you are extremely warm and extremely smart
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and extremely generous. And so I'm just wondering, because I
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think that what's scary about hearing all this is that
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by the time you kind of wake up and you're
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three months into something or three years into something, And
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all the bonds are there and the lease is signed
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and you're married or you have kids or now you've
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moved in together or now you're like got all the
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chemicals flooding your body because you're falling in love and
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you start to hear these red flags.
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You know, I never would have had the strength, I think,
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when I think, like, you know what I mean? To
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be like, oh, okay, time to end this. No, no, no.
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Most people don't.
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And that's, again, it's important for people to hear that
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because a lot of people feel foolish. Why didn't I
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heed the red flags? I knew it on my wedding day.
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I knew it. I felt it.
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Because when we, you know, again, these stories are so
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easy to tell backwards. But at that point, it would
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have felt cataclysmic. And in a way, this was the
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only way you were going to truly get the lesson, right?
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You know, it's unfortunate. And I, you know, the issue
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then becomes like, when I meet somebody who's a little
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bit too charming, a little bit too charismatic, I shut down.
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I'm like, why, what is this?
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And people are saying, you're the only person I've ever
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met who walks away from charismatic people, literally. I've been
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at gatherings and a person's just that person. People must
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think I have some sort of bowel disorder because I'm like,
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I have to run to the restroom. The number of
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times at a social event I'll say, I have to
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run to the restroom.
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People are like, what did she eat? You know, it's
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interesting that you say.
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That because I recently had a couple things go down,
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both in business and life, that were just shocking betrayals,
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lies stolen from, all that kind of stuff that just
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knocked me over. And when I look back through my life,
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there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn
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like a moth to the flame to very charismatic, funny,
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kind of rebel-y people. And I get sucked right in.
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And then I realize once I'm like kind of in
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the inner circle, oh my God, this person's unpredictable. This
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person like trashes people that leave the room. This person
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has major mood swings. And then I literally go into
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a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not
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upset the person.
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Correct. And that is actually.
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That's actually a trauma response.
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Yeah.
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Twisting yourself into knots to not upset the person or
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even like, you know, like, oh, you're so great.
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Like the fawning response. These are classic trauma responses.
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And it took a couple really painful experiences back to
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back to have me look backwards.
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It was almost like life hit me with a sledgehammer.
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Yeah. And I think that that's what it is too.
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You know, I, you and I both worked in the
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media and you in a much more profound way than me.
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But I have to say over the many years I've
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done this, what I've always seen was the charming, charismatic,
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grandiose people never, ever.
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Ever followed through on their promises.
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And to much, sometimes almost to my very real financial
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harm and all of that. And that happened in academia,
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that happened in other areas of my life. And so
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I think for me, those things.
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Have become correlated in my mind.
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Big talker, big promise, big, big, big, all that big talk.
388
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it never comes to fruition and I got hurt by this.
389
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:26.839
So when we talk about classical conditioning, it's like Pavlov's dogs, right?
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The salivating dog when they heard the bell. For me,
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it's charming charisma means you're about to either betray me
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or you're just full of BS. And so that, but
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a lot of harm had to come to me to
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learn that lesson. And when I connected the dots to
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my own childhood and my own experiences, I saw, I
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could see how I got played. And like I said,
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now it comes off as a little bit closed off.
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I wouldn't be surprised if people would think that about me.
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And I do think that this is though, in order
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00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.019
for all of us to become more narcissist resistant, we
401
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.099
need people around us that will back us up. And
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00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.859
where I'm really blessed, at least professionally as a team,
403
00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:14.039
that calls BS. They'll read emails like, nah, no, no, yes, no, yes.
404
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:16.849
And then I'll go deeper in and sometimes I'll be like, yeah, sure.
405
00:20:16.869 --> 00:20:19.410
And they'll say, listen, it's your gig. You call that one,
406
00:20:19.450 --> 00:20:22.390
but we don't love this. And so it's, and that's,
407
00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:24.029
did I hear that right? In fact, the other night
408
00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:26.769
I had had an experience that was really uncomfortable and
409
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it was, and I was like, well, is that uncomfortable?
410
00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:31.299
And I remember my team like that sucked. And I
411
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:34.019
was like, oh, and I, and it was so that you,
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if you have the people around you, who are actually
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00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:42.089
able to be authentic and call out BS, that's also
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00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:44.430
another way you become more resistant to this nonsense.
415
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.420
It's almost like having siblings that bond together. Healthy siblings. Yes,
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healthy siblings. Not siblings that throw you under the bus.
417
00:20:50.500 --> 00:20:53.400
Right. And I think that because the problem is a
418
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:54.980
lot of people are surrounded by enablers.
419
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:56.380
Oh, come on.
420
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He kind of seems like a nice guy and he's
421
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cute and he's from the same place and you're from.
422
00:21:02.609 --> 00:21:05.670
I'm like, he's invalidating you. I don't care how cute.
423
00:21:05.769 --> 00:21:06.890
Nobody's that cute.
424
00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:09.049
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
425
00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:12.859
I'm sorry. As a mom now, I'm like, thinking about
426
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:14.599
my daughters. But what is love bombing?
427
00:21:14.619 --> 00:21:14.740
Yeah.
428
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.390
So love bombing is the.
429
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:23.000
It's the sort of the, it's where the charm and
430
00:21:23.019 --> 00:21:26.619
charisma turn into behavior. It's the early phase of any
431
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:29.519
narcissistic relationship. We tend to only use this term for
432
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.799
romantic relationships. It can happen in friendships, workplace, you name it, anywhere.
433
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.660
It is this intense and overwhelming, I'm going to call
434
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.779
it a courtship, where a person is It's almost an
435
00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:47.049
obsessive fascination with you. They are, it's a person trying
436
00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:50.460
to win you over. The classical kind of tropey love
437
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.049
bombing is, On your first day, you go to the
438
00:21:53.069 --> 00:21:55.190
best restaurant in town and they get the concert tickets
439
00:21:55.230 --> 00:21:57.380
no one can get. And on your third day, you
440
00:21:57.430 --> 00:22:01.140
fly to Paris and you dance till 6 a.m.
441
00:22:01.539 --> 00:22:03.619
On the beach. And it's so exciting.
442
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.220
And they make a scavenger hunt for you and they
443
00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:08.039
get you gifts. And every Friday, there's a dozen roses
444
00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:11.519
waiting for you. That's love bombing. It's fairy tale. It's
445
00:22:11.619 --> 00:22:15.089
larger than life. But I think if we only use
446
00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:15.670
that trope.
447
00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:17.829
It's tricky. Yeah, I was just going to say, who's
448
00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:19.009
going to afford to do that?
449
00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:22.190
I'm like, how do you do that on a blue
450
00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:23.130
collar budget?
451
00:22:23.369 --> 00:22:24.329
I'll tell you how. Tell me how.
452
00:22:24.349 --> 00:22:28.329
You take people to whatever's considered the best restaurant to
453
00:22:28.369 --> 00:22:30.309
your budget. The person's still going to think that's great.
454
00:22:30.569 --> 00:22:33.029
They'll pack. They'll say, let's go on a drive to
455
00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:34.910
wherever the cool place to go on is. drive is.
456
00:22:34.940 --> 00:22:36.980
I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever
457
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.279
seen in your life. They'll buy things. It might not be.
458
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.549
It's like the whisk you off your feet. I'm proving
459
00:22:42.609 --> 00:22:44.609
to you. It's that good night, princess.
460
00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:45.789
Good morning.
461
00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:48.910
I can't start my day without thinking about you. And
462
00:22:48.930 --> 00:22:51.140
then there'll be subtle things like, take a picture where
463
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:52.599
you're at. I just want to see where you're at.
464
00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.240
To me, that's this person stalking you. Why do they
465
00:22:55.259 --> 00:22:56.740
need to know where you're at? Of course, I am
466
00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.920
the anti-romance. Do not find me on Valentine's Day. A
467
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:05.329
couple of those is fine, but not on the second date.
468
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:05.640
Right.
469
00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:09.089
But it's a lot of that. It's intense contact. But
470
00:23:09.529 --> 00:23:12.170
Love bombing just doesn't look like that. Love bombing may
471
00:23:12.190 --> 00:23:15.849
become really intense, almost oversharing really early in the game.
472
00:23:16.150 --> 00:23:21.250
Like they're laying out like this really deep, profound, true
473
00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:25.009
or untrue story about their past, about their childhood, about.
474
00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:25.700
What they're feeling.
475
00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:28.660
And for some people, that's the play because they'll say,
476
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.519
oh my gosh, this person's sharing so much. They're so vulnerable.
477
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.859
And now you're kind of in because they've shared so much.
478
00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:38.019
Love bombing can be too much time together.
479
00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:40.160
Our first date lasted two weeks.
480
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:42.440
Like, do you even have a job? Like what kind of,
481
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:46.480
I mean, first date last two weeks. So like when
482
00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.140
people say that stuff are like, I knew right away,
483
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:51.809
I was like trauma bond, you know, like a minute
484
00:23:51.849 --> 00:23:55.490
people say that I know that sounds so cold, but
485
00:23:55.529 --> 00:23:57.970
it's actually not. It's the, it is this sort of
486
00:23:58.269 --> 00:24:00.029
people might say like when I first saw them, like
487
00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.349
I was really attracted to them, but not like I
488
00:24:02.410 --> 00:24:04.880
knew right away, but the two week first date There's
489
00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:08.069
this intense intention. They spend so much time together. I
490
00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:10.289
canceled all my plans to be with them. You know,
491
00:24:10.309 --> 00:24:12.950
it was so, their lease came up and yeah, we'd
492
00:24:12.970 --> 00:24:15.190
only been together a month, but we decided to move
493
00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:15.769
in together.
494
00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:17.910
Fast, fast, fast, fast, fast.
495
00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:21.099
The fastness is also a part of love bombing. It's
496
00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:25.380
an intensity. It's what I call an intense indoctrination. into
497
00:24:25.420 --> 00:24:28.000
another person. They are winning you over. When you're being
498
00:24:28.259 --> 00:24:32.309
love bombed, you're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession,
499
00:24:32.670 --> 00:24:36.670
by the texting, by the emails, by the gifts, by
500
00:24:36.730 --> 00:24:40.670
the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags.
501
00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:42.490
So what do you do if you're a friend?
502
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.759
Because I think oftentimes, you know, if you see this
503
00:24:45.819 --> 00:24:48.779
happening to a friend or you as the friend on
504
00:24:48.819 --> 00:24:51.430
the outside start to have the red flags go up,
505
00:24:52.299 --> 00:24:53.900
and you say something to your friend.
506
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:55.579
You know, maybe you guys should take it, take it
507
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:56.440
a little easier.
508
00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:59.359
Or, you know, he, I hear he wasn't that great
509
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:02.200
with his last girlfriend or like you just tried, like,
510
00:25:02.259 --> 00:25:03.829
how do you approach it if you're the friend?
511
00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:06.410
Don't drop a dime on the other person. Cause the
512
00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:08.859
minute you try to drop a dime, it's like, ah,
513
00:25:08.869 --> 00:25:10.650
I heard they weren't great with their other person. He's
514
00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:13.730
moving real fast. This is, it's, it's a, it's something
515
00:25:13.769 --> 00:25:16.849
we learned from doing treatment with substance users is do
516
00:25:16.930 --> 00:25:20.490
not make them defend their behavior. And don't make him
517
00:25:20.529 --> 00:25:22.650
defend the narcissist. The minute you say he wasn't great
518
00:25:22.690 --> 00:25:25.079
with his former partner, yeah, have you ever met his
519
00:25:25.099 --> 00:25:26.579
former partner? And now they're defending them.
520
00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:29.180
Never do that. You got to find the back door.
521
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:30.920
So how do you find the back door with a
522
00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:34.980
loved one? You say, talk to me about your new relationship.
523
00:25:35.019 --> 00:25:36.329
How are you feeling? How are you doing?
524
00:25:36.910 --> 00:25:40.410
And they'll tell you the story. Wow, that's a lot happening.
525
00:25:40.750 --> 00:25:43.759
How do you feel about that? you might be more
526
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.000
likely for them to say, yeah, you know, it is
527
00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:46.319
a lot.
528
00:25:46.339 --> 00:25:47.140
Like I'm trying to.
529
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.559
Go with it because I've always felt like I don't
530
00:25:49.579 --> 00:25:52.059
deserve a fairy tale. Now I'm getting the fairy tale
531
00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:55.000
and say, what feels fairy tale-ish about that to you?
532
00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:58.339
You're trying to get them to talk without getting them
533
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:02.569
to defend the narcissistic person. Listen, I'm basically trying right
534
00:26:02.609 --> 00:26:04.930
now to train people to use therapy tricks here.
535
00:26:05.529 --> 00:26:05.769
Right.
536
00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:07.569
But that's really what it is because I think we're
537
00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:10.809
so quick to say, I don't like him. The first
538
00:26:10.829 --> 00:26:12.910
thing they're going to do is defend him. You've got
539
00:26:12.930 --> 00:26:15.690
to get them to talk about the relationship. So they
540
00:26:15.750 --> 00:26:17.970
start spilling on like, oh, I don't know about this.
541
00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:20.569
What do you mean you don't know about this? And
542
00:26:20.950 --> 00:26:23.910
let them talk and say, well, if you're feeling like that,
543
00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:26.529
do you think there's, you know, like, do you feel okay? Maybe,
544
00:26:26.789 --> 00:26:29.039
I don't know, like take a step back. Like you,
545
00:26:29.390 --> 00:26:31.420
you can do that because it sounds like this person
546
00:26:31.460 --> 00:26:34.500
cares about you so much. And I mean, that's a
547
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.579
little manipulative, but if you're trying to save someone, you
548
00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:38.420
try all the tricks.
549
00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:39.500
But what you're.
550
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.380
Trying to do is give them permission maybe to slow down,
551
00:26:42.779 --> 00:26:45.720
to pull back. Or like saying, he wants to move
552
00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:49.000
in right away and say, you love having your own place.
553
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:51.680
So how do you feel about that?
554
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:54.400
Get them to talk about the thing that they value,
555
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:56.720
which is having their own place versus what kind of
556
00:26:56.740 --> 00:26:58.359
fool wants to move into your apartment in a month?
557
00:26:58.380 --> 00:26:58.839
Right.
558
00:26:58.859 --> 00:26:59.059
Right.
559
00:26:59.599 --> 00:26:59.839
Right.
560
00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:00.380
I got it.
561
00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:04.470
That's very, very clear. So if you're spotting this, just
562
00:27:04.490 --> 00:27:09.089
get them to talk. Open-ended questions. Do not say anything
563
00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:10.089
that makes them defend.
564
00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:11.970
So interesting.
565
00:27:12.009 --> 00:27:14.069
I can look backwards now and see as a parent
566
00:27:14.670 --> 00:27:15.759
several mistakes that I made.
567
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:19.099
Because as parents too, Mel, we're so quick in there
568
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.259
to want to protect our kids. I think nowhere else
569
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.200
do we see that reactive like, bad, bad, bad. And
570
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.920
it's almost like you can feel the clenching in yourself
571
00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:29.509
of saying, Well, talk to me about this friendship.
572
00:27:29.549 --> 00:27:31.670
And inside you're like, leave them. I hope you never
573
00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:33.390
talk to them again. You know, but you.
574
00:27:33.329 --> 00:27:39.059
Can't because everybody, when they're ambivalent about something and we
575
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:41.740
raise the thing that they're ambivalent about as being bad.
576
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.119
Their reactive response is to defend that because they're ambivalent.
577
00:27:46.289 --> 00:27:47.329
It makes a lot of sense.
578
00:27:47.549 --> 00:27:51.049
And, you know, it seems like you can't talk about narcissism,
579
00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:54.930
particularly in the dating world, without the term gaslighting coming up.
580
00:27:55.210 --> 00:27:58.539
So, Dr. Romney, I want you to explain what gaslighting
581
00:27:58.779 --> 00:28:00.039
is when we come back.
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So Dr.
606
00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:32.950
Romney, can you explain what gaslighting is? So gaslighting is
607
00:29:33.049 --> 00:29:35.769
a form of emotional abuse. It's a form of manipulation,
608
00:29:36.150 --> 00:29:44.180
but it's a death sentence. of reality followed up with
609
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.680
making someone feel impaired. So it's not just lying, right?
610
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:49.569
It's not like I.
611
00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:53.099
Didn't move the checkbook. That's a lie.
612
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:53.819
Okay.
613
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:56.799
They did move the checkbook. It's not that never happened.
614
00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:58.160
That's a lie. It did.
615
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.599
All right. So that up to the first part of
616
00:30:00.619 --> 00:30:03.460
gaslighting is lying. It's the second part of it that
617
00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:06.630
makes it gaslighting, which is the, you say, we'll use
618
00:30:06.690 --> 00:30:07.490
a simple example.
619
00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.130
Did you move the checkbook? I always keep it in
620
00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:11.569
this drawer.
621
00:30:11.609 --> 00:30:15.839
Like I know I didn't move the checkbook, Are you
622
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:16.920
sure you didn't move the checkbook?
623
00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:18.940
It's always in this drawer. You know what?
624
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.069
Your memory has been going lately. This isn't the first time.
625
00:30:23.109 --> 00:30:26.089
And you know, you've been so distracted and stressed. In fact,
626
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.849
it's affecting our relationship. Like, have you thought about talking
627
00:30:28.869 --> 00:30:31.589
to someone? Now it's become a conversation about how you
628
00:30:31.630 --> 00:30:34.450
have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of
629
00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:36.670
your mind, but they actually did move the checkbook.
630
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:39.940
You know, I had this situation. I can't really go
631
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.170
into it in great detail, but dealing with a narcissist
632
00:30:43.309 --> 00:30:47.819
and a work relationship where I knew something was up.
633
00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:51.970
I would say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about the issue.
634
00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:55.309
And they would lie. And then they would point it back.
635
00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:58.829
But you've been so busy. Correct. I handled it. Correct.
636
00:31:00.339 --> 00:31:01.160
Over and over.
637
00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:04.509
And then the more, the closer I got to the truth,
638
00:31:04.869 --> 00:31:09.789
the more I noticed this rage, like this, it's in
639
00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:12.240
the narcissist that I now see that I have dealt with,
640
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:16.299
whether it's in work or in life or relationships or friendships.
641
00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:20.009
there's always this moment that I call that, you know,
642
00:31:20.049 --> 00:31:24.410
in the Bravo, Real Housewives of New Jersey, that famous
643
00:31:24.509 --> 00:31:26.450
clip where that woman flips over the table?
644
00:31:26.470 --> 00:31:26.990
Yes, yes.
645
00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:29.089
And I don't even watch it and I know that. Yeah,
646
00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:29.470
it's rage.
647
00:31:29.609 --> 00:31:34.980
Yeah, that's a great narcissistic moment. So narcissistic rage is
648
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.099
a thing? No, it's absolutely a thing. Because it's a
649
00:31:38.259 --> 00:31:43.940
rage that's set off by their thin skinned, reactive sensitivity, right?
650
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.789
Something that does not require a table being flipped over.
651
00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:49.650
I don't know that anything anyone could say to you
652
00:31:50.089 --> 00:31:53.230
would be a table being flipped over, right? I mean,
653
00:31:53.509 --> 00:31:57.009
short of like, I don't know, I killed your best friend.
654
00:31:57.029 --> 00:31:59.609
I suppose I might flip a table over at that point.
655
00:31:59.809 --> 00:32:03.529
But short of that, no table flipping. And table, these
656
00:32:03.789 --> 00:32:09.359
very dramatic, dysregulated gestures. And afterwards, they'll soft pedal it.
657
00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:13.190
or downplay it or give you a pseudo apology and
658
00:32:13.210 --> 00:32:13.700
then just.
659
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:14.539
Do it again. Yeah.
660
00:32:15.259 --> 00:32:15.539
Wow.
661
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:20.180
Are there other forms of gaslighting, uh, that might surprise us?
662
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:23.420
You know, like there's that sort of like lying and
663
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.839
then flipping it back on you, but are there other
664
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.690
forms of gaslighting that, that, that surprise people?
665
00:32:29.730 --> 00:32:33.150
You know, in some ways there's, there's other things that
666
00:32:33.190 --> 00:32:38.289
are gaslighty, like a, um, like the silent treatment in
667
00:32:38.329 --> 00:32:41.680
a way can have a gaslighting feel because you start
668
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:44.519
feeling like you're losing your mind, you know? So that's
669
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.640
a great example of sort of a gaslighting behavior. At
670
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.839
some level, denial can have a gaslighting feel. I mean, again,
671
00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:53.920
gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality
672
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.569
and then telling you there's something wrong with you, right?
673
00:32:56.829 --> 00:32:58.349
So that's the sequence of it.
674
00:32:58.910 --> 00:32:59.519
But it is a.
675
00:33:01.750 --> 00:33:04.269
But it can take these other kinds of, you know,
676
00:33:04.289 --> 00:33:07.529
these other sorts of, like, can't you take a joke
677
00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:09.569
is a great example of gaslighting.
678
00:33:09.710 --> 00:33:11.960
You're too sensitive. Yeah, you're too sensitive. Can't you take a.
679
00:33:11.970 --> 00:33:15.420
Joke is a great example of they insult you, all right?
680
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.099
You have a reaction to that. Like, that was not okay.
681
00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:21.220
That was in front of a group of people. What
682
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.619
were you thinking? I didn't mean it that way. I
683
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:25.390
didn't mean, can't you take a joke?
684
00:33:25.450 --> 00:33:30.529
So now you're this sort of hypersensitized, hyperreactive person, right?
685
00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:33.259
who can't take something that was allegedly a joke, even
686
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.279
though the tone or anything, can't you take a joke?
687
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.180
And again, I mean, I think comics do.
688
00:33:38.089 --> 00:33:38.789
This all the time.
689
00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:41.089
I mean, I don't know, being a comedian relationship is
690
00:33:41.109 --> 00:33:42.470
probably a tough, because.
691
00:33:42.109 --> 00:33:43.650
Probably everything's a joke, right?
692
00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:47.509
So, but it's a, that's another great example of something
693
00:33:47.529 --> 00:33:48.750
you don't realize, it's the gaslighting.
694
00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:51.170
Okay, so now we are at the point of the
695
00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:54.359
podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn
696
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:58.279
and everybody listening is going, Oh God, I'm.
697
00:33:57.799 --> 00:33:59.400
Spotting narcissists everywhere.
698
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:02.660
So let's start to talk about what do you do?
699
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.480
What do you do?
700
00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:07.690
And let's start with the example of how do you
701
00:34:07.730 --> 00:34:08.989
break up with a narcissist?
702
00:34:09.849 --> 00:34:13.570
Not every narcissistic relationship ends. Keep this in mind. I
703
00:34:13.610 --> 00:34:17.190
think that should it? Listen, if I ran the world, sure,
704
00:34:17.250 --> 00:34:18.880
but I don't run the world. And I also know
705
00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:20.780
that for some people, they're saying, you know what? I'm
706
00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:24.559
not going to divorce my parent. There's reasons of culture.
707
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.760
reasons of other people in my family that matter to me,
708
00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:33.510
my own sense of duty and obligation and responsibility. I
709
00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:35.469
see them clearly now though, and I'm going to interact
710
00:34:35.489 --> 00:34:37.030
with them differently, but I'm not going to end all
711
00:34:37.110 --> 00:34:40.150
contact with them. Okay. There are many people, I'd say
712
00:34:40.150 --> 00:34:43.420
50% of people in narcissistic marriages stay in long-term committed
713
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.780
relationships stay. And I understand that. And I don't think
714
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:49.659
that there should be a pressure to go because when
715
00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:52.099
there's that pressure to go, What I see is a
716
00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.610
lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow even
717
00:34:54.650 --> 00:34:55.510
while they stay in it.
718
00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:58.190
So by the person heal and grow, you're talking about
719
00:34:58.210 --> 00:34:59.789
the person who's in the relationship.
720
00:34:59.809 --> 00:35:00.610
Because as we learn.
721
00:35:00.630 --> 00:35:03.639
You can't change the weather in Chicago and you cannot change.
722
00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:05.780
We're not changing the narcissists. That's not even on the table.
723
00:35:06.260 --> 00:35:08.199
And it's important for everybody to hear this because you
724
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:08.800
are listening.
725
00:35:09.730 --> 00:35:12.650
to the world's leading expert on this, who has had
726
00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:15.860
a clinical practice, who has been an academic, who is
727
00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:19.719
sought after by everybody on this topic. You have been
728
00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:24.099
in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking
729
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.500
for help because it now serves them, because the board
730
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.489
of directors is now getting ready to fire them or
731
00:35:30.909 --> 00:35:33.829
their spouse is ready to divorce them.
732
00:35:33.789 --> 00:35:36.090
Or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them
733
00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:39.269
they're they're i mean remember narcissistic people are very victimized
734
00:35:39.610 --> 00:35:41.510
if things aren't going their way everyone's out to get
735
00:35:41.550 --> 00:35:43.250
me i have a target on my back which on
736
00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:45.369
which on that kind of thing how come everyone's out
737
00:35:45.409 --> 00:35:47.349
to get me how come life's so unfair to me.
738
00:35:47.829 --> 00:35:52.929
Yep yep and if you are in a clinical setting
739
00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:57.170
and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated
740
00:35:57.269 --> 00:35:58.650
to try to change.
741
00:35:59.889 --> 00:36:01.489
How much can they change.
742
00:36:01.780 --> 00:36:04.489
It's a great question. So I've worked with many clients
743
00:36:04.530 --> 00:36:09.469
like this. You're going to get the best we can
744
00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:16.510
hope for is a little bit more accountability. They'll still
745
00:36:16.530 --> 00:36:18.719
have rage, but they might catch it and apologize a
746
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.280
little bit more. They are still going to roll their
747
00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:28.440
eyes when they don't want to listen to someone, but they'll.
748
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:28.380
Maybe do it less.
749
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.380
Um, they'll huff and puff when they're made to wait
750
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.530
in the line at the airport, but they won't scream
751
00:36:34.550 --> 00:36:39.670
at the gate agent. Um, you get, you, they, they
752
00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:42.030
can sprint through some stuff. You can get them to
753
00:36:42.050 --> 00:36:44.130
sprint through some stuff, but they're never going to be marathoners.
754
00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:46.829
They're still going to drop the ball a lot. I've
755
00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:49.760
worked with people who, once they learned what it meant
756
00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:54.219
to stop being this way, which meant empathy, listening to people,
757
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:59.889
being present. holding space for them, being accountable for their
758
00:36:59.929 --> 00:37:05.789
bad behavior, not getting angry at people or sharing their feelings.
759
00:37:06.250 --> 00:37:08.610
I had one person say to me, this is what
760
00:37:09.110 --> 00:37:14.679
this is about? And I said, yeah. So we said,
761
00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:19.480
I wanna break in therapy for a little while. And
762
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.699
in that period of time, he divorced his wife and
763
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:24.909
broke up with his mistress. And I said, oh, and
764
00:37:24.929 --> 00:37:26.849
he's like, you know what? And this is, he said,
765
00:37:26.869 --> 00:37:29.349
I don't want to hurt these people. I really don't
766
00:37:29.409 --> 00:37:32.030
want to hurt people, but I can see they're getting hurt.
767
00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:33.730
And you've clearly pointed that out in here that I
768
00:37:33.789 --> 00:37:35.670
am hurting them. Cause I would say that that's, I mean,
769
00:37:35.949 --> 00:37:37.349
how do you think they felt? We did a lot
770
00:37:37.369 --> 00:37:40.250
of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think
771
00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:42.530
about how do you think that other person feels? And
772
00:37:42.550 --> 00:37:43.969
in a therapy room, if they scream at me, I'd
773
00:37:43.989 --> 00:37:45.260
be like, bye out.
774
00:37:45.449 --> 00:37:46.400
You're not my client anymore.
775
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:51.519
So they, um, they, he said, I don't want to
776
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:53.510
hurt them. But I don't want to listen to them.
777
00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:56.730
I'm not interested in their BS. I'm not interested in
778
00:37:56.750 --> 00:37:58.449
their feelings. Like I could do for 10 minutes, but
779
00:37:58.469 --> 00:37:59.929
this hours thing? No.
780
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:03.159
I want to live in my own place. And I
781
00:38:03.860 --> 00:38:04.400
miss sex.
782
00:38:04.539 --> 00:38:06.760
So I found someone and I pay her every two
783
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:08.099
weeks and she comes by and I don't want her to.
784
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.159
Wake up next to me. And sounds like a real peach.
785
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:11.590
Okay.
786
00:38:11.610 --> 00:38:13.949
But was I, you know what? I'd say kind of
787
00:38:13.989 --> 00:38:15.949
a peach. I wasn't mad at him.
788
00:38:17.349 --> 00:38:21.150
He is ex-wife can now go and find is no
789
00:38:21.210 --> 00:38:21.969
longer chase.
790
00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:24.349
She may still wonder. So what do you do if
791
00:38:24.389 --> 00:38:25.610
you're the ex-wife?
792
00:38:25.730 --> 00:38:27.369
Because I think one of the other things that I've
793
00:38:27.389 --> 00:38:29.630
learned from you is that the damage that a.
794
00:38:29.630 --> 00:38:32.349
Narcissist does, she's got to go do her work now.
795
00:38:32.530 --> 00:38:35.929
I mean, what is that work? That work is learning
796
00:38:35.989 --> 00:38:39.869
about narcissism, understanding you are not to blame.
797
00:38:40.250 --> 00:38:41.030
It's almost like.
798
00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:44.789
A person is going to be less frustrated by their
799
00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:46.550
car breaking down if they know how their car works.
800
00:38:48.289 --> 00:38:48.530
Right?
801
00:38:48.710 --> 00:38:51.050
So now you're like, oh, this mechanic's taking advantage of me.
802
00:38:51.059 --> 00:38:52.480
I'm like, nah, now you know how to change your
803
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:56.440
own carburetor. Like, I'm teaching you how to fix this thing.
804
00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:57.139
Okay?
805
00:38:57.190 --> 00:38:59.190
And the fix is not in them. It's in you.
806
00:38:59.409 --> 00:39:02.250
Because remember... You ain't changing the weather in Chicago. You're
807
00:39:02.269 --> 00:39:03.349
not changing the weather in Chicago.
808
00:39:03.670 --> 00:39:06.989
And ultimately, the person that you treated that would do
809
00:39:07.050 --> 00:39:12.500
these very intense visualization exercises to try to understand empathy,
810
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:16.039
the only thing that happened is that he gained the.
811
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.480
Knowledge to go, I'm not doing that.
812
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:19.320
And here's the thing, though. That, to me, is a
813
00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:22.989
form of empathy. Because I'll tell you this. Instead of saying, well,
814
00:39:23.309 --> 00:39:25.750
she needs to step up. She needs to meet me
815
00:39:25.809 --> 00:39:28.429
where I'm at. He's like, I don't want to hurt
816
00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:29.170
these people.
817
00:39:29.690 --> 00:39:29.840
And I.
818
00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:32.440
I am going to keep hurting them. Because if you
819
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.599
think I'm going to sit here and listen to their
820
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.969
BS feelings without rolling my eyes, you're high.
821
00:39:38.449 --> 00:39:39.090
So Dr.
822
00:39:39.139 --> 00:39:42.349
Romney, you have really helped me because there were kind
823
00:39:42.389 --> 00:39:46.389
of some major takeaways that I've learned from you. One
824
00:39:46.469 --> 00:39:49.289
being that you don't change the weather in Chicago, you're
825
00:39:49.309 --> 00:39:52.219
not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain
826
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:58.190
of one, period. Second, that narcissists are made during childhood.
827
00:39:58.469 --> 00:40:00.110
They're not necessarily born that way.
828
00:40:00.130 --> 00:40:02.110
They're not. They're definitely not born that way. The third
829
00:40:02.170 --> 00:40:03.150
thing is that.
830
00:40:03.969 --> 00:40:08.849
If it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality, they don't
831
00:40:08.909 --> 00:40:11.429
even know they're doing it. It's not like it is
832
00:40:11.530 --> 00:40:17.010
a conscious behavior. It is so ingrained in how they
833
00:40:17.050 --> 00:40:19.880
behave that it's like a reaction to situations.
834
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:21.880
Correct. But this takes, this is an important flip I
835
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.159
need to make on that because people say, well, if
836
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.880
they don't know, then I can't be mad at them.
837
00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:29.659
To which I say, yes, you can. We recently had
838
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:32.800
a YouTube video basically is that multiple.
839
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:33.429
Things can be true.
840
00:40:34.219 --> 00:40:37.590
And nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship.
841
00:40:38.070 --> 00:40:40.190
This person had a tough childhood.
842
00:40:40.489 --> 00:40:40.869
Yup.
843
00:40:41.769 --> 00:40:43.769
This person invalidates me every day.
844
00:40:43.789 --> 00:40:44.690
Yup.
845
00:40:45.230 --> 00:40:46.630
We have kids together.
846
00:40:46.650 --> 00:40:46.719
Yup.
847
00:40:48.329 --> 00:40:51.070
They're not going to stop doing this. You see what
848
00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:53.329
I'm saying? Like all those things can be true at
849
00:40:53.369 --> 00:40:54.050
the same time.
850
00:40:54.110 --> 00:40:57.679
What is the most important truth for somebody that is
851
00:40:57.739 --> 00:41:02.059
listening right now who realizes, oh my God, I'm.
852
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.400
In a relationship with a narcissist. What is the most.
853
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:08.659
Important truth that you want that person to start to
854
00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:13.119
think about and embrace? This is not your fault. You're
855
00:41:13.139 --> 00:41:14.800
not responsible for somebody else's behavior.
856
00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:15.679
You're not.
857
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:17.960
At some level, maybe we could say that about our
858
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:20.510
children's behavior to a point, but even though there's a
859
00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:24.289
point that that goes away, right? You are not responsible for, well,
860
00:41:24.309 --> 00:41:25.210
they're reacting to me.
861
00:41:25.369 --> 00:41:26.349
No, they're reacting.
862
00:41:27.269 --> 00:41:32.170
And there's other ways to react. So they could calmly
863
00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:34.909
say to you, I don't like how you're talking to
864
00:41:34.949 --> 00:41:37.789
me and I need a minute. Can teach them those things.
865
00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:39.869
They can go to therapy and learn that. but they
866
00:41:39.929 --> 00:41:43.670
feel entitled to their reactions. They feel entitled to their rage.
867
00:41:43.989 --> 00:41:46.230
This is how I react. This is who I am.
868
00:41:46.469 --> 00:41:49.210
And that's the other thing you'll hear. Authentically, this is
869
00:41:49.230 --> 00:41:51.880
who I am. To which I want people to say,
870
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.179
then maybe that doesn't work for you. And listen, Mel,
871
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:56.099
there's many a person out there who waits till their
872
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:58.179
youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file
873
00:41:58.219 --> 00:41:58.739
for divorce.
874
00:41:58.960 --> 00:41:59.159
Yep.
875
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:00.300
Wow.
876
00:42:00.739 --> 00:42:02.099
You know, the other thing that I learned from you
877
00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:04.989
today that was just a game changer was when you
878
00:42:05.030 --> 00:42:12.030
said you are trained to believe that doing something that
879
00:42:12.170 --> 00:42:17.019
a narcissist doesn't like is wrong. That's where the guilt
880
00:42:17.059 --> 00:42:21.750
comes from. that you learned guilt because somebody made you
881
00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:24.750
believe that it's wrong to disappoint them.
882
00:42:24.849 --> 00:42:26.030
Correct. Correct.
883
00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:28.610
And because you learn that, you learn that as a child.
884
00:42:29.010 --> 00:42:31.889
That is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood.
885
00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:35.590
And then you carry that into any relationship where there
886
00:42:35.630 --> 00:42:38.150
feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant.
887
00:42:38.429 --> 00:42:40.429
And that's why people like this will repeat these cycles
888
00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:40.969
at work.
889
00:42:41.510 --> 00:42:43.130
Repeat them in intimate relationships and.
890
00:42:43.090 --> 00:42:43.550
Even in friendships.
891
00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:44.869
What do you do if your boss is a narcissist?
892
00:42:44.969 --> 00:42:49.440
Like they're constantly raging at you. They're, you know, they're unpredictable.
893
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:52.780
They take credit for everything. How do you handle that situation?
894
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:53.440
Here's the thing.
895
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:58.519
Workplace situations are interesting because, you know, it's, I understand
896
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.730
people need jobs. And sometimes people say, I am never
897
00:43:01.750 --> 00:43:03.369
going to find a job that pays me this much.
898
00:43:03.750 --> 00:43:07.590
Like I'm making, and I'm my primary breadwinner.
899
00:43:06.949 --> 00:43:07.769
In my situation.
900
00:43:08.269 --> 00:43:10.860
Then we go back to that radical acceptance. you are
901
00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:12.269
in a job where you're going to be raged at.
902
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:13.719
In the workplace, I say to people, you've got to
903
00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:15.760
document the hell out of this. You've got to make
904
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:18.679
sure you don't take meetings alone. You save every email.
905
00:43:18.699 --> 00:43:21.679
You save every voicemail. You save every text message. Because
906
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:23.789
if you ever need to engage in any kind of
907
00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:27.130
HR or litigation, you're going to need that. It's impossible
908
00:43:27.469 --> 00:43:29.809
to push on workplace issues without that. And even then,
909
00:43:30.469 --> 00:43:31.989
workplace bullying isn't against the law.
910
00:43:32.730 --> 00:43:33.110
It's not.
911
00:43:33.610 --> 00:43:35.829
And so it's really, really hard to do that much
912
00:43:35.869 --> 00:43:41.389
with it. When you say radical acceptance... What exactly does
913
00:43:41.409 --> 00:43:43.070
that mean? So you're in a situation, because I saw
914
00:43:43.090 --> 00:43:44.769
this early in my career.
915
00:43:44.889 --> 00:43:45.449
I was a lawyer.
916
00:43:45.469 --> 00:43:47.250
I was a public defender first. And then when we
917
00:43:47.289 --> 00:43:49.190
moved to Boston, I worked in a large law firm.
918
00:43:49.789 --> 00:43:52.269
And the amount of yelling that came out of partners'
919
00:43:52.429 --> 00:43:57.429
offices and the shaming and the just demeaning way that
920
00:43:57.469 --> 00:44:00.289
people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway,
921
00:44:00.630 --> 00:44:03.769
and it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot
922
00:44:03.809 --> 00:44:04.670
of money into the firm.
923
00:44:04.769 --> 00:44:06.630
It's what I call the golden goose phenomenon.
924
00:44:06.650 --> 00:44:09.719
And it's why... In a workplace, if you recognize.
925
00:44:09.300 --> 00:44:12.079
The golden goose phenomenon as a play, meaning that there's
926
00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:15.099
no way the people higher up in the leadership are
927
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.730
going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too
928
00:44:17.750 --> 00:44:20.530
much money, nobody kills the golden goose, then you have
929
00:44:20.570 --> 00:44:22.860
to ask yourself, where do I fit into this? I mean,
930
00:44:23.030 --> 00:44:26.679
in most cases, Mel, I had to say that the
931
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:30.320
only good ending to it, either if you're lucky, and
932
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:33.760
this is luck, when that narcissistic manager, boss, or person
933
00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:37.809
is removed, usually because institutional, organizational settings kind of stink
934
00:44:37.849 --> 00:44:38.570
from the head down.
935
00:44:38.590 --> 00:44:41.570
Like there's a culture that was sort of fostered.
936
00:44:41.769 --> 00:44:44.469
Same in a family. Yeah, it's very unlikely that that
937
00:44:44.510 --> 00:44:46.929
will happen. But sometimes people get lucky in their one
938
00:44:46.989 --> 00:44:50.860
division that happens. But if that doesn't happen, most people
939
00:44:50.900 --> 00:44:52.420
need to ultimately leave Yes.
940
00:44:52.539 --> 00:44:54.400
It can be a huge career change. People will say,
941
00:44:54.460 --> 00:44:54.739
I'm out.
942
00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:57.900
I cannot work like this. Some people might modify what
943
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.190
they do. They'll say, you know what? I am going
944
00:45:00.250 --> 00:45:02.230
to not make, I'm going to take a huge financial
945
00:45:02.269 --> 00:45:05.369
risk and I'm going to put out my legal shingle
946
00:45:05.449 --> 00:45:07.570
and I'm going to open a small practice.
947
00:45:07.630 --> 00:45:09.920
There's way too many companies and jobs out there to
948
00:45:09.949 --> 00:45:10.760
tolerate that bullshit.
949
00:45:10.780 --> 00:45:11.000
I agree.
950
00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:11.559
I agree.
951
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:14.880
And it's taking years off. In fact, workplace, this kind
952
00:45:14.900 --> 00:45:17.780
of workplace antagonism is a unique kind of stress that
953
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:20.780
has actually been found to be quite associated with physical
954
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.389
health problems. And I think a lot of that is
955
00:45:22.429 --> 00:45:27.309
because for some reason, workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up
956
00:45:27.349 --> 00:45:29.090
at night. And I think it's because you come home,
957
00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:30.829
you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle
958
00:45:30.849 --> 00:45:32.250
of the night and you're like, I can't, what am.
959
00:45:32.230 --> 00:45:35.010
I, you know, I'm going to get in trouble tomorrow. Ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate.
960
00:45:35.289 --> 00:45:37.150
And that goes on day after day after day. I mean,
961
00:45:37.170 --> 00:45:39.530
these are bosses who have no problem calling, you know,
962
00:45:39.889 --> 00:45:42.929
interrupting a person on their vacation saying, get in here now.
963
00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:45.409
And And you're having to clean up their mistakes. Like
964
00:45:45.429 --> 00:45:48.469
you said, they take credit for your work. They gaslight.
965
00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:52.449
These are environments of fear. It's very triangulated where some
966
00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:54.780
people trying to get on the good side of the
967
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.159
narcissistic person. I mean, it's chaos. It's chaos. And I
968
00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:01.570
have never seen anyone successfully pull it off. You'll even
969
00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:04.639
see in some of the higher profile Me Too narcissism
970
00:46:04.659 --> 00:46:07.059
scandals we've seen, people are like, I just want to
971
00:46:07.099 --> 00:46:09.780
work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's going.
972
00:46:09.699 --> 00:46:11.659
To help my career. But you know what?
973
00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:13.599
You have to live with the moral injury for the
974
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:15.909
rest of your life that you were part of that machine.
975
00:46:16.650 --> 00:46:18.550
And you're not going to change the weather in Chicago.
976
00:46:18.570 --> 00:46:20.090
You're not going to change the weather in Chicago. And
977
00:46:20.110 --> 00:46:20.690
you're also going to.
978
00:46:20.670 --> 00:46:22.650
Have to live with this blood on your hands, which
979
00:46:22.710 --> 00:46:26.070
is a different level that people in workplace settings will
980
00:46:26.110 --> 00:46:27.800
sometimes say, this is what I worked in.
981
00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:28.599
What does that make me?
982
00:46:29.829 --> 00:46:33.389
Okay, when we come back, Dr. Romney, I know you
983
00:46:33.449 --> 00:46:36.610
have amazing tools that anybody can use when they're dealing
984
00:46:36.650 --> 00:46:40.230
with a narcissist. My personal favorite has to do with
985
00:46:40.309 --> 00:46:43.070
gray rocks. If you want to know what that means,
986
00:46:43.449 --> 00:46:45.630
you're going to have to stick around after this short break.
987
00:46:49.809 --> 00:46:52.889
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988
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989
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990
00:47:00.210 --> 00:47:02.829
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991
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992
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994
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:18.519
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995
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:21.340
Did you always want to become a teacher?
996
00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:22.719
For as long as I can remember.
997
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:27.590
Danny! Shut up!
998
00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:29.030
You pushed a girl down the stairs.
999
00:47:29.050 --> 00:47:30.909
I'm going to tell everyone you attacked me.
1000
00:47:31.150 --> 00:47:31.889
Let me go!
1001
00:47:32.269 --> 00:47:33.929
I hate you!
1002
00:47:33.969 --> 00:47:37.280
Investigations continue into the disappearance of Danny Carter.
1003
00:47:37.300 --> 00:47:38.369
You're never letting me go, are you?
1004
00:47:38.380 --> 00:47:39.440
Is anyone feeling sad or anxious now?
1005
00:47:45.820 --> 00:47:46.079
All right.
1006
00:47:46.539 --> 00:47:49.460
Bad Apples in cinemas September 18th, so at 15 a.m.
1007
00:47:49.539 --> 00:47:54.159
Bordnemona is now BNM. But while this has meant great
1008
00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:57.659
change for us, some things are still the same. We're
1009
00:47:57.739 --> 00:48:01.179
still an energy company. And we're on a journey to
1010
00:48:01.219 --> 00:48:04.599
build a model future for Ireland by providing a source
1011
00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:07.860
of renewable power. Homegrown by the sun that shines on
1012
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.230
our lands and the wind that blows across it.
1013
00:48:10.699 --> 00:48:13.480
Power for our communities. Power for our economies.
1014
00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:18.289
Power for our progress as a nation. BNM, where progress
1015
00:48:18.590 --> 00:48:19.409
gets its power.
1016
00:48:25.489 --> 00:48:29.360
So I want to end with some tools that people
1017
00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:31.039
can use. So one of the ones that you talk
1018
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:35.340
about that whenever I share it, I obviously credit you,
1019
00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:38.659
that people just love this, and that's Grayrock.
1020
00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:40.750
Yeah, so gray rocking and that, you know, I can't
1021
00:48:40.789 --> 00:48:42.869
even take credit from that. Gray rocking is something that's
1022
00:48:42.889 --> 00:48:45.510
been around for a long time. And gray rocking is,
1023
00:48:45.909 --> 00:48:48.920
gray rocking is a response to the constant baiting that
1024
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:52.860
happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight
1025
00:48:53.699 --> 00:48:56.699
because it makes you look crazy, right? If you're getting
1026
00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:00.159
frothed up, now you're raging kind of like them and
1027
00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:02.320
they're like, oh, you need to calm down. That's a
1028
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:04.840
form of gaslighting too. They get you worked up and
1029
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:07.079
then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged.
1030
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:09.460
So the way in some ways to bring down that
1031
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:14.820
baiting is just completely disengage in the most absolute, you're
1032
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:18.570
not going no contact, but you're saying yes, no, okay.
1033
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:24.179
I didn't know that. Sure. Now, now let me ask.
1034
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:28.320
You a question about this because in our family, somebody
1035
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:34.820
has had a situation where there was an ex blowing
1036
00:49:35.849 --> 00:49:36.570
up their phone.
1037
00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:41.719
And Snapchat. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage, which.
1038
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:46.380
Once I learned that this was happening, a lot of
1039
00:49:46.460 --> 00:49:48.019
other young women chimed in.
1040
00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:50.139
Oh, well, I've had somebody do that.
1041
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:52.519
And you know, it's been dismissed because they're drunk or
1042
00:49:52.539 --> 00:49:54.969
because they're this or because they're upset or because I'm
1043
00:49:55.010 --> 00:49:57.730
the ex or because I'm dating somebody new. And you know,
1044
00:49:57.750 --> 00:50:00.610
we're talking 75 texts over the course.
1045
00:50:00.389 --> 00:50:02.469
Of one evening. Pick up your phone. Why aren't you?
1046
00:50:02.530 --> 00:50:04.789
I know you're ignoring me. That's abuse. That's abuse.
1047
00:50:06.369 --> 00:50:10.809
When it comes to that, do you, you don't respond
1048
00:50:10.849 --> 00:50:13.409
at all because aren't they looking for the response?
1049
00:50:13.489 --> 00:50:15.179
Aren't they seeking the attention?
1050
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:17.239
Now you can see in a situation like this with
1051
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.699
gray rocking, like you're like, okay, I'm not responding to
1052
00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:22.139
this kind of stuff. The behavior is going to escalate
1053
00:50:22.179 --> 00:50:25.619
for a while. And that escalation scares people. So the
1054
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.139
gray and gray rocking is, if you're going to gray
1055
00:50:29.179 --> 00:50:32.760
rock as an, as an pathway to an exit to
1056
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.980
what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really
1057
00:50:36.989 --> 00:50:39.719
stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because
1058
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:42.639
they're in families, they have to co-parent, all those things,
1059
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.920
you know, whatever it may be. Full no contact is,
1060
00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:48.579
when people do it, they're like, this is great. Like
1061
00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:50.260
I never have to have anything to do with them again,
1062
00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.349
but it's not always possible. So the gray rocking will
1063
00:50:53.409 --> 00:50:57.030
initially enrage the narcissistic person. If you can white knuckle
1064
00:50:57.070 --> 00:50:57.889
it for long enough.
1065
00:50:58.090 --> 00:50:58.590
How long?
1066
00:50:59.389 --> 00:51:03.130
And this is an excellent, excellent example for those of
1067
00:51:03.170 --> 00:51:06.010
you that are in a contentious divorce, for those of
1068
00:51:06.050 --> 00:51:08.880
you that are dealing with child custody issues. And so
1069
00:51:08.900 --> 00:51:12.840
you have to negotiate after divorce drop-offs or exes. And
1070
00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:15.880
so pay attention to this because you are correct. If
1071
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:19.739
you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention.
1072
00:51:19.889 --> 00:51:20.050
Right.
1073
00:51:20.510 --> 00:51:22.460
And so now they're going to escalate it to try
1074
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:22.869
to get it.
1075
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:27.059
So now this is where a friend and colleague of
1076
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:31.210
mine developed something called Yellow Rock. Tina Swithin, who does
1077
00:51:31.289 --> 00:51:35.190
amazing work in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce, she
1078
00:51:35.230 --> 00:51:37.789
came up with Yellow Rock. And the idea of Yellow Rock...
1079
00:51:38.380 --> 00:51:41.320
is not so much the yes, no, like you're almost
1080
00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:42.320
like so dull.
1081
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:44.409
But it's like, yeah, sure.
1082
00:51:44.429 --> 00:51:45.710
Oh, okay.
1083
00:51:45.929 --> 00:51:50.969
Yeah. Great. There's emotion. There's lilt. There might even be like, oh,
1084
00:51:51.010 --> 00:51:52.989
you went there? Oh, did you like that?
1085
00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:56.570
Oh, that's that new grocery store, right? You're not talking
1086
00:51:56.590 --> 00:52:00.909
about anything. But Yellow Rock isn't so dire. Now, in
1087
00:52:00.949 --> 00:52:04.570
your obsessive texting example, that's a different kind of a
1088
00:52:04.610 --> 00:52:07.940
situation because that's a case where you just don't respond. Correct.
1089
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:08.880
And you save it all.
1090
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:10.880
And if it continues like that, you actually might even
1091
00:52:10.900 --> 00:52:12.179
need to involve law enforcement.
1092
00:52:12.219 --> 00:52:14.380
We involved Chris, my husband.
1093
00:52:14.420 --> 00:52:14.559
Yeah.
1094
00:52:14.659 --> 00:52:18.260
He sent a text back saying, we'll involve law enforcement. Yeah, exactly.
1095
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:19.280
Knock it off.
1096
00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:19.610
It worked.
1097
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:20.210
Yeah, it works.
1098
00:52:21.090 --> 00:52:23.269
In many cases, but in some cases it does not.
1099
00:52:23.309 --> 00:52:25.630
And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications
1100
00:52:25.650 --> 00:52:27.489
that have to happen when for it to qualify to
1101
00:52:27.530 --> 00:52:31.010
get law enforcement involved. So it can't be 10 or 20.
1102
00:52:31.010 --> 00:52:33.639
I mean, it's such a vast number. They're like, oh,
1103
00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:37.820
so for me to be fully traumatized is the only
1104
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:39.119
way law enforcement will respond.
1105
00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:39.820
And it's true.
1106
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:42.090
Those bars are set in a way that it's hard
1107
00:52:42.130 --> 00:52:42.530
to intervene.
1108
00:52:42.610 --> 00:52:43.110
It's ridiculous.
1109
00:52:43.650 --> 00:52:46.449
But in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the,
1110
00:52:46.670 --> 00:52:48.190
they're trying, where were you on Saturday night?
1111
00:52:48.210 --> 00:52:48.809
What were you doing?
1112
00:52:48.949 --> 00:52:52.280
Oh, your friend coming over and say, oh yeah, everything's fine.
1113
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:57.500
Like you're, it's very Stepford-y, like da-da-da-da-da. But for kids
1114
00:52:57.559 --> 00:53:01.480
to see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That
1115
00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:05.409
devoid of emotion, robotic feel is unsettling. For kids, it
1116
00:53:05.449 --> 00:53:09.210
can be unsettling in the workplace. So with yellow rocking,
1117
00:53:09.250 --> 00:53:12.269
I always say to people, have a list of inert,
1118
00:53:12.409 --> 00:53:17.090
innocuous things Topics to talk about the weather, the freeway
1119
00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:22.360
is going to be closed on Friday. It's, um, you know, it's, uh,
1120
00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:25.250
can you believe it's only a month till this holiday?
1121
00:53:25.630 --> 00:53:28.070
Like you, you have those topics in your back pocket
1122
00:53:28.610 --> 00:53:29.829
and then there can be a lot of that. And
1123
00:53:29.909 --> 00:53:33.369
once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend
1124
00:53:33.389 --> 00:53:36.670
people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell
1125
00:53:36.710 --> 00:53:39.699
them don't go deep and don't go deep means don't
1126
00:53:39.739 --> 00:53:42.010
defend don't don't engage, don't.
1127
00:53:41.869 --> 00:53:45.710
Explain, don't personalize. Oh, that was an acronym, everybody.
1128
00:53:45.730 --> 00:53:46.289
Yeah, deep.
1129
00:53:46.530 --> 00:53:51.260
Don't defend, don't explain, don't engage, don't personalize. What does
1130
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:54.019
don't personalize mean? So can you give us an example
1131
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:54.699
of how this works?
1132
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:55.179
So don't, so.
1133
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:00.170
a person's coming at you with like, Oh, great. Great.
1134
00:54:00.250 --> 00:54:00.610
Yeah.
1135
00:54:00.630 --> 00:54:01.730
I can see. Oh, what is this?
1136
00:54:01.809 --> 00:54:05.010
One of your loser friends having one of their stupid
1137
00:54:05.050 --> 00:54:07.909
fundraisings for one more of their causes? Like, uh, yeah,
1138
00:54:07.929 --> 00:54:09.889
your friend's like an idiot loser.
1139
00:54:10.010 --> 00:54:10.929
So sure.
1140
00:54:10.949 --> 00:54:11.260
Yeah.
1141
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.480
Uh-huh. Well, let's, let's give, let's give this person more money.
1142
00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:16.079
You know, I don't even know why you're friends with
1143
00:54:16.099 --> 00:54:20.559
these people. Like, is that how pathetic? So you're the noise,
1144
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:22.340
they come at you trying to isolate you.
1145
00:54:22.409 --> 00:54:22.550
Right.
1146
00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:24.920
You don't defend your friends.
1147
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:27.260
You don't say, oh, she means so well. She's raised
1148
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:31.619
so much money for this community. You don't explain what
1149
00:54:31.659 --> 00:54:35.269
the charity does. You don't engage in the back and forth.
1150
00:54:36.469 --> 00:54:38.710
And you don't make it about you. This has nothing
1151
00:54:38.730 --> 00:54:40.670
to do with you. That has to do with their insecurity.
1152
00:54:40.690 --> 00:54:41.710
Their temper tantrum.
1153
00:54:41.769 --> 00:54:46.030
Their tantrum, their insecurity. They're being set off. And this
1154
00:54:46.050 --> 00:54:46.510
is a hard one.
1155
00:54:46.909 --> 00:54:47.340
People say.
1156
00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:54.159
I told Mary I was going. I RSVP'd. I'm going
1157
00:54:54.179 --> 00:54:55.949
to be going. Do you say I'm sorry?
1158
00:54:56.070 --> 00:54:56.349
No.
1159
00:54:56.469 --> 00:54:56.900
Why would you?
1160
00:54:56.909 --> 00:54:57.449
What did you do wrong?
1161
00:54:57.469 --> 00:54:58.130
I don't know.
1162
00:54:58.170 --> 00:54:59.369
Because I'm conditioned to.
1163
00:54:59.530 --> 00:55:00.090
I don't know.
1164
00:55:01.230 --> 00:55:02.329
Just want to keep you happy.
1165
00:55:02.369 --> 00:55:02.730
I'm sorry.
1166
00:55:02.750 --> 00:55:05.420
I don't know.
1167
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:09.460
Girl, if I could set up an app that could identify.
1168
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.699
I think you're going to shock me. Oh, my Lord.
1169
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.199
That every time a person says, I'm sorry, they did
1170
00:55:15.250 --> 00:55:17.150
get like a little shock through their watch or like
1171
00:55:17.210 --> 00:55:17.349
a ring.
1172
00:55:17.489 --> 00:55:19.590
That is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist.
1173
00:55:19.650 --> 00:55:21.809
I'm sorry. No, it's the worst thing you could say
1174
00:55:21.849 --> 00:55:24.889
for yourself. Why are you apologizing? We're back to the guilt.
1175
00:55:24.909 --> 00:55:27.489
Because I have been conditioned to believe that if I
1176
00:55:27.550 --> 00:55:31.480
do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't
1177
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:33.579
what you want, that I'm bad.
1178
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:37.159
That's you. That's a you thing. That's your work.
1179
00:55:37.420 --> 00:55:39.900
Because I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. I have so much
1180
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:42.719
work to do. I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. Why should
1181
00:55:42.739 --> 00:55:45.469
I say I'm sorry? I RSVP'd four weeks ago. I
1182
00:55:46.429 --> 00:55:49.429
am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened.
1183
00:55:49.469 --> 00:55:50.130
I'm none of that.
1184
00:55:50.170 --> 00:55:54.329
You're just, I RSVP'd a month ago. I'm planning on going.
1185
00:55:54.869 --> 00:55:58.110
I'll be leaving at seven. Done. You do it with
1186
00:55:58.130 --> 00:55:58.690
a smile on your face.
1187
00:55:58.710 --> 00:56:02.539
I'll tell you, I just sit here and think, why
1188
00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:06.619
on earth would you put up with that in your life?
1189
00:56:07.820 --> 00:56:09.579
Maybe I'm combative. You know what I mean?
1190
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.960
Maybe I'm combative and I'm like, listen, asshole, I make
1191
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:12.739
my own money.
1192
00:56:12.579 --> 00:56:14.320
And I'm going to give it to whoever the fuck
1193
00:56:14.380 --> 00:56:14.739
I want.
1194
00:56:14.980 --> 00:56:17.039
It's the good days and the bad days because you
1195
00:56:17.059 --> 00:56:19.320
actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night.
1196
00:56:20.050 --> 00:56:22.190
And they had a bad day today and they're stressed
1197
00:56:22.409 --> 00:56:24.150
out and they had a lot of childhood trauma. And
1198
00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:28.230
relationships are hard and everything's compromised and they don't really
1199
00:56:28.309 --> 00:56:31.010
mean it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So
1200
00:56:31.090 --> 00:56:34.150
if you could break it, get into the multiple truths.
1201
00:56:34.690 --> 00:56:37.869
Oh, yeah, there's multiple truths. I can't be judgy. I'm sorry.
1202
00:56:37.889 --> 00:56:41.429
I am married to a person who's an asshole.
1203
00:56:41.449 --> 00:56:45.840
I was just about to say deeply insecure and reactive,
1204
00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:49.280
which is code for us. The asshole is the one
1205
00:56:49.340 --> 00:56:51.940
tidy word that gets at that. But I am married
1206
00:56:51.980 --> 00:56:55.380
to a deeply insecure person who is a rager. That
1207
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:56.179
is who I'm married to.
1208
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:57.139
That is a truth.
1209
00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:00.420
And say that sentence out loud. It all relates to
1210
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:03.230
a concept called cognitive dissonance. We don't like it when
1211
00:57:03.369 --> 00:57:04.829
incompatible things are happening.
1212
00:57:04.869 --> 00:57:08.050
That's true. So to break the tension, we justify. That's true.
1213
00:57:08.130 --> 00:57:11.190
So it's like the truth, the things that are true
1214
00:57:11.320 --> 00:57:15.059
are I am married to somebody who is an insecure jerk, right?
1215
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:15.159
Yeah.
1216
00:57:15.739 --> 00:57:19.710
Because of childhood drama, whatever, and rages. I also have
1217
00:57:19.750 --> 00:57:22.909
children with this person. I also don't wanna go through
1218
00:57:22.929 --> 00:57:26.090
the nightmare of divorcing this person. I'm gonna work on
1219
00:57:26.150 --> 00:57:31.630
my own stuff in order to have that cognitive, psychological
1220
00:57:31.690 --> 00:57:34.329
dissonance in order to figure out my own stuff.
1221
00:57:34.469 --> 00:57:36.030
But you can see after you do all that, you
1222
00:57:36.070 --> 00:57:36.820
know how people feel?
1223
00:57:36.860 --> 00:57:39.360
They feel sad. They're like, this is my life.
1224
00:57:39.500 --> 00:57:42.739
Yes, because once you actually wake up and do the work, oh,
1225
00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:44.659
you just did a Trojan horse. We want you to
1226
00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:47.920
go to therapy so you become more confident and more
1227
00:57:47.980 --> 00:57:51.159
self-aware that you actually do not deserve this.
1228
00:57:51.179 --> 00:57:52.659
This is not your fault.
1229
00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:56.199
The weather in Chicago is something you can't change.
1230
00:57:56.219 --> 00:57:56.489
That's it.
1231
00:57:57.829 --> 00:58:00.670
Oh, sneaky. I like that. I like that kind of
1232
00:58:00.710 --> 00:58:02.050
personal empowerment.
1233
00:58:02.170 --> 00:58:04.409
Therapy is always about finding those back doors and you
1234
00:58:04.449 --> 00:58:06.429
can't walk in the front door. We learned that in
1235
00:58:06.809 --> 00:58:08.550
day one of therapy class.
1236
00:58:08.570 --> 00:58:12.719
Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. You are so smart. You are
1237
00:58:12.820 --> 00:58:13.340
so smart.
1238
00:58:13.699 --> 00:58:18.079
So one takeaway or like what takeaways do you want
1239
00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:21.780
people to like really talking to somebody who just had
1240
00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:23.739
a wake up call? Because we also learned that if
1241
00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:28.079
you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality, you're
1242
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:30.789
thinking that none of this applies to you. But if
1243
00:58:30.829 --> 00:58:35.090
you're listening and you're starting to think of people in
1244
00:58:35.110 --> 00:58:38.250
your life, whether it's at work or friendships or siblings
1245
00:58:38.389 --> 00:58:40.489
or the person that you're in a relationship with or
1246
00:58:40.570 --> 00:58:44.840
parents or grandparents, what are some of the key takeaways
1247
00:58:44.889 --> 00:58:49.539
that you hope people have gained from this doctor?
1248
00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:54.760
You're not to blame for someone else's personality. You can't
1249
00:58:55.150 --> 00:59:05.570
change them. You have the right to your independent autonomous
1250
00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:06.489
life separate from other.
1251
00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:18.019
People, opinions, feelings, needs. And above all.
1252
00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:20.320
Else, I want to let people know that there are
1253
00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:22.389
many people out there who hear this and say, well,
1254
00:59:22.409 --> 00:59:22.829
I got to go.
1255
00:59:23.070 --> 00:59:25.750
I got to leave this relationship. And some people do.
1256
00:59:26.150 --> 00:59:26.690
They don't.
1257
00:59:27.869 --> 00:59:31.389
They end contact or really suspend contact with a family
1258
00:59:31.449 --> 00:59:36.730
member or even a parent. They may end a romantic relationship.
1259
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:39.500
They may start doubting their own marriage. They may even
1260
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:44.500
consider quitting a job or whatever. But then they start saying,
1261
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:46.519
but I want to go back, but I miss the person,
1262
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:48.719
but I'm having second thoughts, but we're getting back together,
1263
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:51.489
but I showed up at the family wedding anyhow. And
1264
00:59:51.510 --> 00:59:53.550
what I tell people is this isn't about an all
1265
00:59:53.570 --> 00:59:56.840
or nothing and you will be pulled back because there's
1266
00:59:56.900 --> 00:59:58.719
no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A
1267
00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:00.739
trauma bond is something you feel. Some people will say
1268
01:00:01.019 --> 01:00:02.880
the idea of no longer talking to my mom or
1269
01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:05.000
no longer being in this marriage, I feel sick.
1270
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:06.539
Like I can't do this.
1271
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.929
I literally feel sick inside of me. So that's a
1272
01:00:09.989 --> 01:00:15.219
real physical feeling. And it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave
1273
01:00:15.260 --> 01:00:19.619
us feeling uncomfortable. We do get pulled back in. For
1274
01:00:19.659 --> 01:00:24.000
me to keep saying to people, this is not going
1275
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:27.119
to change and it is not your fault and it
1276
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:29.309
is all internal to them and this is what the
1277
01:00:29.369 --> 01:00:32.510
apparatus looks like. But even on those days when you
1278
01:00:32.550 --> 01:00:36.510
feel sad, because this is a landscape characterized by grief.
1279
01:00:37.219 --> 01:00:39.960
This was my childhood. I never got to have a
1280
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:43.619
real childhood. I didn't ever let my dreams launch. I
1281
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:46.219
got into a crappy marriage. I may never have a
1282
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:49.219
normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids. This is
1283
01:00:49.300 --> 01:00:51.420
real grief. There's no soft peddlings. You don't get a
1284
01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:54.739
do-over on this stuff. And so for people, some of
1285
01:00:54.780 --> 01:00:58.800
these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime. And I
1286
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:01.119
wish I could sit here and say something fluffy like,
1287
01:01:01.260 --> 01:01:03.800
and one day you'll never think about this again. What
1288
01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:06.530
I want to tell people is that you're going to
1289
01:01:06.690 --> 01:01:11.010
learn to coexist with that pain and you're slowly going
1290
01:01:11.030 --> 01:01:13.630
to find your voice. And it's almost like if you
1291
01:01:13.670 --> 01:01:17.380
had a really bad accident or injury, even if you
1292
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:19.579
could fully do your physical therapy and heal, every so
1293
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:21.260
often you're going to step on that leg the wrong way.
1294
01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:24.900
You're going to be like, ouch, and you're reminded. And
1295
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:28.239
it is a, it doesn't all just go away. You
1296
01:01:28.260 --> 01:01:31.860
start learning the workarounds and you understand that there's going
1297
01:01:31.889 --> 01:01:33.650
to be good days and bad days. Because I think
1298
01:01:33.989 --> 01:01:37.889
setting an overly sunny kind of a path forward for
1299
01:01:37.929 --> 01:01:40.349
healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing
1300
01:01:40.389 --> 01:01:43.480
fast enough, feeling ashamed and so they can't even heal right.
1301
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:45.969
There is no healing, right? This will take as long
1302
01:01:45.989 --> 01:01:48.289
as it takes. There will be good days and bad.
1303
01:01:48.630 --> 01:01:51.409
But if you're willing to give yourself permission to take
1304
01:01:51.449 --> 01:01:55.110
yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward.
1305
01:01:55.170 --> 01:01:58.360
And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do
1306
01:01:58.510 --> 01:02:04.699
amazing things. They write amazing things. There's a creativity and
1307
01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:05.630
it's almost like a.
1308
01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:09.489
WTF of it all. Like, all right, you know, at
1309
01:02:09.510 --> 01:02:12.829
this point, why not? Like I survived this mess. Why not?
1310
01:02:13.210 --> 01:02:18.250
And they'll do some really cool, fun, they'll blog, they'll
1311
01:02:18.489 --> 01:02:24.639
self-publish books, they'll start businesses. They'll go back to school.
1312
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:27.320
I remember one woman I worked with, she's like, I
1313
01:02:27.340 --> 01:02:29.940
went back to school. I was 75 when I graduated,
1314
01:02:30.019 --> 01:02:32.019
but I finally finished college after being told I was
1315
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:36.119
a moron, a fool, an ass for 50 years. And
1316
01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:38.409
she's like, I'm not going to work, but I did it.
1317
01:02:38.500 --> 01:02:42.019
And the pride that was felt, the survivor stories are remarkable.
1318
01:02:42.260 --> 01:02:45.340
They're small, they're big. It's the person, my favorite was
1319
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:51.110
the person who said, she was an amazing cook, and
1320
01:02:51.139 --> 01:02:53.780
her malignant narcissistic marriage many, many years.
1321
01:02:54.139 --> 01:02:54.940
She baked his.
1322
01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:58.760
Favorite cake and she gave it to people who were
1323
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.460
homeless in her neighborhood. And she's like, eat this because
1324
01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:02.519
I've never eaten this kind of cake.
1325
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:04.900
And they loved it. And so, you know, some people
1326
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:06.639
actually said, I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw
1327
01:03:06.659 --> 01:03:08.320
it out. Some people don't like to throw out food.
1328
01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:08.980
I get that.
1329
01:03:09.940 --> 01:03:12.420
Some people had a big blowout party on the night
1330
01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:15.139
of what would have been their malignant narcissistic ex's birthday
1331
01:03:15.179 --> 01:03:17.460
party and said, I got to put this behind me.
1332
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:21.260
This can take so many forms. Some people go back
1333
01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:23.690
to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches.
1334
01:03:24.050 --> 01:03:25.130
They help people through it. But you know what I
1335
01:03:25.130 --> 01:03:26.030
love about this, Dr.
1336
01:03:26.030 --> 01:03:30.869
Romani, is that Like when you understand something and there
1337
01:03:31.050 --> 01:03:34.789
is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of
1338
01:03:34.889 --> 01:03:39.269
us have experiences with it, but when you understand it
1339
01:03:39.909 --> 01:03:42.590
and when you have a few simple tools from an
1340
01:03:42.969 --> 01:03:47.050
expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth.
1341
01:03:47.090 --> 01:03:51.460
It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness, for self-compassion, that just
1342
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:53.760
because the weather in Chicago.
1343
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:55.679
Can't be changed and you can't change what that.
1344
01:03:55.639 --> 01:03:59.449
Other person is doing, That multiple things can be true,
1345
01:03:59.869 --> 01:04:02.289
but the thing that we know is always true is
1346
01:04:02.349 --> 01:04:06.090
that if you're willing to put in the work, you
1347
01:04:06.150 --> 01:04:09.449
can make the situation that you're in better for yourself
1348
01:04:09.869 --> 01:04:12.320
because you can change the way that you show up.
1349
01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:14.559
You can change the boundaries that you have. You can
1350
01:04:14.579 --> 01:04:18.519
change the way that you internalize things or not.
1351
01:04:19.659 --> 01:04:19.840
Yeah.
1352
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.840
And people who are.
1353
01:04:20.780 --> 01:04:24.500
Going through these relationships are sometimes thinking, I almost don't
1354
01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:27.719
want to be happy because it's such a contrast to
1355
01:04:27.820 --> 01:04:30.489
what I'm in in this relationship. So it's almost, it's
1356
01:04:30.590 --> 01:04:33.289
a sense of, okay, maybe I'll just going to, I'm
1357
01:04:33.309 --> 01:04:36.059
going to, I'm not going to take care of me
1358
01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:38.510
because me not taking care of me fits. It's again,
1359
01:04:38.530 --> 01:04:42.190
that making it all fit. I say, find those ways
1360
01:04:42.210 --> 01:04:45.030
because they're, I call them these tiny acts of rebellion.
1361
01:04:45.489 --> 01:04:48.030
The way you squeeze in, because if you exercise and
1362
01:04:48.050 --> 01:04:50.010
they know about it, like, oh, why are you wasting time?
1363
01:04:50.050 --> 01:04:51.309
You must have a lot of leisure time if you
1364
01:04:51.329 --> 01:04:54.340
can exercise. But then you realize like, oh, I have
1365
01:04:54.340 --> 01:04:56.599
18 minutes before they get home. And you jump on
1366
01:04:56.619 --> 01:04:59.659
the treadmill or you throw on the yoga channel on
1367
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:02.360
your whatever YouTube you watch and you do it. Like
1368
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:06.989
you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do.
1369
01:05:07.489 --> 01:05:09.269
Every day you have a goal and each day for
1370
01:05:09.269 --> 01:05:11.769
365 days you do one thing towards the goal. And
1371
01:05:11.809 --> 01:05:14.690
maybe you finish that degree online and here's the win.
1372
01:05:15.489 --> 01:05:19.360
Never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams. Never ever
1373
01:05:19.420 --> 01:05:22.559
tell them your aspirations. because they will mock you and
1374
01:05:22.579 --> 01:05:25.000
they will dismantle you and they will even try to
1375
01:05:25.019 --> 01:05:27.539
get in the way of them. The rebellion is to
1376
01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:31.110
go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And
1377
01:05:31.219 --> 01:05:33.289
once you've done it, you've done it, you don't even
1378
01:05:33.309 --> 01:05:35.730
have to share it. And what's really fun to watch
1379
01:05:35.789 --> 01:05:38.530
is when the narcissist hears from someone else like, wow,
1380
01:05:38.630 --> 01:05:40.699
did you hear about that whole thing they set up?
1381
01:05:40.750 --> 01:05:43.809
And the person's like, why didn't you tell me? And like, ah,
1382
01:05:44.010 --> 01:05:47.170
it didn't seem like that big a deal. And you
1383
01:05:47.190 --> 01:05:48.989
just get it in there, but never share your dreams
1384
01:05:49.030 --> 01:05:49.750
with them. Wow.
1385
01:05:49.849 --> 01:05:51.849
I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I
1386
01:05:51.849 --> 01:05:54.739
was in the audience and it was a women's conference
1387
01:05:54.780 --> 01:05:57.480
and this woman stood up and she was talking about
1388
01:05:57.519 --> 01:06:00.820
how she had this massive dream of getting this degree
1389
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:04.269
online and that her husband wouldn't allow it.
1390
01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:07.320
And I remember.
1391
01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:12.780
Thinking how sad it was to realize that she was
1392
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:17.510
trapped in this life and And the thing that I
1393
01:06:17.550 --> 01:06:23.269
wanna say is that these tiny acts of rebellion, if
1394
01:06:23.309 --> 01:06:26.039
you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple
1395
01:06:26.119 --> 01:06:30.179
things that are true, these tiny 18 minute moments of
1396
01:06:30.219 --> 01:06:33.119
rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel.
1397
01:06:33.539 --> 01:06:33.820
They are.
1398
01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:37.849
That allow you over time to escape because every time
1399
01:06:38.090 --> 01:06:41.750
you do something that is for you first, And you
1400
01:06:41.789 --> 01:06:43.949
don't feel the need to share it or get permission
1401
01:06:44.070 --> 01:06:46.130
and you keep showing up every day and you do
1402
01:06:46.170 --> 01:06:48.650
that exercise or you do that meditation or you take
1403
01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:51.150
that online class and you don't seek the permission or
1404
01:06:51.190 --> 01:06:55.570
validation from that narcissist. If you start to exercise that muscle,
1405
01:06:57.130 --> 01:06:59.269
at some point you're going to wake up and you're
1406
01:06:59.289 --> 01:07:02.409
going to realize, oh my God, I'm actually above ground
1407
01:07:02.469 --> 01:07:03.570
and outside the jail.
1408
01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:05.659
Why did I stay in there? Okay, I'm not going
1409
01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:08.739
to validate myself. But I'm ready to make a big
1410
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:09.739
change now.
1411
01:07:09.820 --> 01:07:13.219
You start to see I can do stuff. By doing
1412
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:15.409
those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that
1413
01:07:15.429 --> 01:07:17.630
gets awoken. You're like, I can do stuff. And maybe
1414
01:07:17.690 --> 01:07:20.010
I am strong enough to do this or to do that.
1415
01:07:20.269 --> 01:07:23.010
You meet other people. You get validated in different ways.
1416
01:07:23.030 --> 01:07:25.900
You get the A on the paper. And the professor says, wow,
1417
01:07:25.940 --> 01:07:28.360
why aren't you going to graduate school? After all those
1418
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:31.099
years of being invalidated, to have someone say, there's something
1419
01:07:31.119 --> 01:07:34.429
special about you. Just that one conversation can change the
1420
01:07:34.469 --> 01:07:36.809
course of somebody's life, but that's only gonna happen when
1421
01:07:36.829 --> 01:07:38.710
you do all these tiny acts of rebellion. And that
1422
01:07:38.730 --> 01:07:41.320
might be one of the most important steps to survivorship.
1423
01:07:41.340 --> 01:07:44.199
This isn't about like storming out and like, oh, I'm
1424
01:07:44.260 --> 01:07:47.059
leaving you, but you can do all these little things
1425
01:07:47.539 --> 01:07:50.360
because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people. And
1426
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:52.900
whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire
1427
01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:55.679
set of literature, might be learning another language. You can
1428
01:07:55.699 --> 01:07:57.860
do that on your own time too. But whatever it
1429
01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:02.539
looks like, that somehow getting that new skill actualizing that
1430
01:08:02.619 --> 01:08:06.159
dream and not letting them know about it or harm
1431
01:08:06.219 --> 01:08:10.159
it can it can awaken something in you the real
1432
01:08:10.219 --> 01:08:13.889
you that may actually allow you to start really distancing
1433
01:08:13.909 --> 01:08:17.649
from this relationship if not physically definitely psychologically.
1434
01:08:17.590 --> 01:08:21.310
I just also like felt really empowered because I realized
1435
01:08:21.350 --> 01:08:24.539
that's also something that we can do as friends and
1436
01:08:24.619 --> 01:08:30.000
sisters and siblings and seeing other people that are in
1437
01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:34.470
these situations, validating somebody, you know, not being, not doing
1438
01:08:34.510 --> 01:08:36.369
the thing that I probably would have done in the past,
1439
01:08:36.390 --> 01:08:36.989
which is why.
1440
01:08:36.850 --> 01:08:37.649
Don't you leave him?
1441
01:08:37.729 --> 01:08:38.869
Like, why don't you cut him off?
1442
01:08:38.949 --> 01:08:42.529
Like just validating the small moves of independence and rebellion
1443
01:08:42.569 --> 01:08:46.920
that somebody's making. And being somebody who is an ally
1444
01:08:46.979 --> 01:08:49.439
in that is a way that you can support someone.
1445
01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:51.899
Oh, thank you, Mel. I can't believe I learned even
1446
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.479
more from you today. That's the idea.
1447
01:08:54.750 --> 01:08:58.090
And what I love about what I learned today is
1448
01:08:58.149 --> 01:09:01.039
that it will help me with the healing part of this.
1449
01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:02.600
Yes, that's the key. Because you know what?
1450
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:06.060
Listen, I am telling you now, I am amazed at
1451
01:09:06.100 --> 01:09:08.979
how many survivors I meet. And I wish my students,
1452
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.760
when I taught at the university, could have given me
1453
01:09:10.819 --> 01:09:12.939
as good a rundown. Like they're giving me, like they
1454
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:16.739
get this. So I'm like, okay, you get this. Now,
1455
01:09:16.779 --> 01:09:20.300
like you said, Even if I get it, that's not enough.
1456
01:09:20.619 --> 01:09:23.800
I still feel guilty. I still feel pulled two ways.
1457
01:09:24.220 --> 01:09:28.130
I still feel the sick inside. The healing is about
1458
01:09:28.710 --> 01:09:32.050
being compassionate, if you will, with that sick you feel inside,
1459
01:09:32.470 --> 01:09:36.989
but slowly giving yourself permission to little by little disconnect.
1460
01:09:37.010 --> 01:09:39.229
You're not going to do it all at once, but
1461
01:09:39.369 --> 01:09:41.930
month by month, we're guiding people to just step back
1462
01:09:42.329 --> 01:09:45.590
little by little. Sometimes it's two steps forward, I mean,
1463
01:09:45.609 --> 01:09:47.850
three steps forward, two steps back. But at least that's
1464
01:09:47.939 --> 01:09:51.529
one step up. And it's a process. As a survivor myself,
1465
01:09:52.189 --> 01:09:54.529
more days than not, I feel good. But there are
1466
01:09:54.569 --> 01:09:56.710
moments I don't. And I feel like I have no
1467
01:09:56.750 --> 01:09:58.989
right to even be talking to people about this. And
1468
01:09:59.010 --> 01:10:01.409
I'm like, oh, maybe because I say that, I do
1469
01:10:01.449 --> 01:10:03.649
have every right to talk to people about this. And
1470
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:07.340
it's a, you know, this is a journey into not
1471
01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:11.159
only humility, but it's about seeing yourself and recognizing this
1472
01:10:11.239 --> 01:10:13.939
is an issue that's affecting everyone in the world. This
1473
01:10:14.180 --> 01:10:18.369
is a global issue. We are making narcissists our heroes.
1474
01:10:18.470 --> 01:10:20.649
They get all of our attention. They suck all the
1475
01:10:20.750 --> 01:10:23.609
oxygen out of the world. Let's face it. Whether it's
1476
01:10:23.689 --> 01:10:29.979
in celebrity, politics, business, athletics, their bad behavior is the
1477
01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:34.939
stuff that we are constantly paying attention to. Imagine paying
1478
01:10:34.979 --> 01:10:39.260
attention to people who are well-regulated, warm, kind, and compassionate.
1479
01:10:39.539 --> 01:10:42.010
We often view them as We often view them through
1480
01:10:42.029 --> 01:10:44.010
a more, I don't know, like weak lens.
1481
01:10:44.390 --> 01:10:46.750
I actually think they're the strongest people out there.
1482
01:10:46.829 --> 01:10:49.989
So all you agreeable people come find me because I
1483
01:10:50.050 --> 01:10:52.760
do love you, especially you agreeable introverts.
1484
01:10:53.220 --> 01:10:56.180
That's my tribe. Oh man. Well, you're in my tribe too.
1485
01:10:56.220 --> 01:10:57.140
Thank you. I love you.
1486
01:10:58.569 --> 01:10:59.310
All right.
1487
01:11:00.449 --> 01:11:03.470
That was a lot of information. I feel like I
1488
01:11:03.930 --> 01:11:06.050
need to go have a seltzer or Diet Coke or
1489
01:11:06.090 --> 01:11:08.430
something and just let that soak in. I want to
1490
01:11:08.470 --> 01:11:11.260
thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I hope
1491
01:11:11.270 --> 01:11:14.239
you got as much out of this episode today with Dr.
1492
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:17.899
Romney as I did. And in case you want more information,
1493
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:19.920
I mean, that's what happens when I listen to Dr.
1494
01:11:19.979 --> 01:11:20.300
Romney.
1495
01:11:20.359 --> 01:11:22.560
I'm like, oh, I want to dig in more. There
1496
01:11:22.579 --> 01:11:26.829
are resources about Dr. Romney and there's resources on narcissism.
1497
01:11:26.909 --> 01:11:29.430
Just go to the show notes that are for every
1498
01:11:29.489 --> 01:11:32.369
single episode, including this one at melrobbins.com.
1499
01:11:32.489 --> 01:11:33.810
I always got you covered.
1500
01:11:34.229 --> 01:11:36.310
And by the way, if you haven't had a chance
1501
01:11:36.390 --> 01:11:39.439
to listen to that first conversation that we had with Dr. Romney,
1502
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:42.020
it was called The Five Signs You're Dealing With a
1503
01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:45.399
Narcissist and How to Protect Yourself. That one is a
1504
01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:47.899
couple of weeks ago. Well, you can listen to that
1505
01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:51.300
and all the episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast on
1506
01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.220
Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. So please
1507
01:11:54.300 --> 01:11:57.439
do yourself a favor, go check it out, follow the show.
1508
01:11:57.899 --> 01:12:01.180
And if you've got something out of today's show, I
1509
01:12:01.220 --> 01:12:02.880
can't tell you how many people have been writing to
1510
01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:07.279
me saying, I had no idea that I was in
1511
01:12:07.300 --> 01:12:10.819
a relationship with a narcissist or that my parents were one,
1512
01:12:10.970 --> 01:12:14.779
or this explains everything about my boss or somebody in
1513
01:12:14.819 --> 01:12:15.260
my life.
1514
01:12:15.859 --> 01:12:17.760
This is life-changing information.
1515
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:20.260
So if there's somebody that you know would benefit from
1516
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:22.640
this or be interested in it, take a minute and
1517
01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:25.899
share the episode. Because when you do that, you truly
1518
01:12:25.979 --> 01:12:29.239
give somebody an opportunity to look at their life and
1519
01:12:29.260 --> 01:12:31.939
to empower themselves in a whole new way.
1520
01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:34.760
Oh, and one more thing. In case no one else
1521
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:36.399
tells you, I want to tell you something.
1522
01:12:36.920 --> 01:12:38.479
And I want to tell you something no narcissist will
1523
01:12:38.500 --> 01:12:41.359
tell you. I want to tell you that your friend
1524
01:12:41.380 --> 01:12:45.340
Mel Robbins is here. I'm here for you Mondays and Thursdays,
1525
01:12:45.420 --> 01:12:47.270
and I love you, and I believe in you, and
1526
01:12:47.279 --> 01:12:49.369
I believe in your ability to create a better life.
1527
01:12:49.909 --> 01:13:01.329
Now go get out there and do it.
1528
01:13:01.350 --> 01:13:01.810
Stitcher.
1529
01:13:06.050 --> 01:13:09.149
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Did you always want.
1538
01:13:36.619 --> 01:13:38.970
To become a teacher? For as long as I can remember.
1539
01:13:39.270 --> 01:13:43.850
Danny! Shut up!
1540
01:13:43.869 --> 01:13:45.270
You pushed a girl down the stairs.
1541
01:13:45.289 --> 01:13:48.149
I'm going to tell everyone you attacked me. Let me go!
1542
01:13:48.529 --> 01:13:50.170
I hate you!
1543
01:13:50.229 --> 01:13:53.520
Investigations continue into the disappearance of Danny Carter.
1544
01:13:53.560 --> 01:13:54.609
You're never letting me go, are you?
1545
01:13:54.619 --> 01:13:55.699
Is anyone feeling sad or anxious now?
1546
01:14:02.100 --> 01:14:02.319
All right.