Spirituality Without Religion: A Humanist Chaplain’s Journey

Charlotte Cramer: and welcome to the listening field. This is Reverend Charlotte Kramer, your super awesome, fantastic host. ⁓ I am really, really excited ⁓ be joined today by a dear friend of mine, a colleague, a badass chaplain. This is Becky Pauley. Hi, Becky. Hello, everyone. And Becky is a humanist chaplain and she works ⁓ hospitals in Portland. Becky has a lot of experience working within social services, she's a member for P.A.R., which is ⁓ Homeless Youth Service in Portland, Oregon. Becky is an amazing human being and your experiences with spirituality I'm very curious about because you were a humanist chaplain and so I feel like this is ⁓ that is part of the spiritual world and needs to be talked about more and is slowly starting to get talked about more but ⁓ would you like to introduce yourself more please? ⁓ my is Becky. Hi, Becky. ⁓ I born and raised in Portland, Oregon. ⁓ I was a social worker for 10 years, working mostly with homeless youth and youth and foster care, and then decided to make a career pivot into chaplaincy. And at the time, I did not even know that chaplaincy was a religious job or that religion was an aspect of the work. What? Oh my god, I didn't know that. That's crazy. Okay. I thought I was going to be a Greek counselor I got burned out in my social work job, particularly doing direct service through the pandemic and moved to California and it was the perfect time to pivot into a new role. And at that point I was searching for a job that would let me be with people and... accompany them through hardship without some of the constraints that can sometimes happen within social work settings where you're bound by grants and funding limitations And had a friend who was becoming a chaplain and was like, I think you would like this job. ⁓ I also have my own grief story that ⁓ emphasized to me how little people know about how to support people who are grieving and how unpracticed we are as people. in holding grief, personally or communally. And so it seemed like a good fit. And I pivoted. I went back to school down in the bay at the graduate theological union. And in that program, they really wanted me to be of a specific organized religion. And I grew up Jewish, so I really needed to be a Jewish chaplain. And as I was going through my schooling, ⁓ had my own kind of dilemma of... not really feeling like that was the right fit, but I had just left one career in pursuit of another and was wondering, is this going to be right for me? Will this work out? This isn't feeling ⁓ natural as I thought. And I also had so much shame because ⁓ they wanted me to be a particular type of ⁓ Jewish as And ⁓ while ⁓ I have connected to the kind of like moral and value systems of my cultural Judaism. I am not super connected to the religious aspect of it. And so ⁓ I finished up schooling, it was time to start ⁓ clinical pastoral education aspect of it, ⁓ the placement part of becoming a chaplain. ⁓ and I applied to a program here in Portland at Legacy Emanuel and just happened to end up with an educator who's a humanist. that person really helped me undo a lot of the shame I was holding and step into this version of this chaplain identity that I hold now. Wow. Wow. story and I have so many questions for you. Wow okay so ⁓ I want to start the beginning and your transition from social work to chaplaincy ⁓ what was going through your when you realized that chaplaincy was ⁓ religious spiritual work ⁓ when did that happen ⁓ and ⁓ did you keep pursuing ⁓ That is a good question. It happened pretty immediately when I started school. You're like, okay cool. Got it. I mean, the very first class I had, we all went around and introduced ourselves and said what religion we were. ⁓ yeah. And I was like, ⁓ I need to have an answer to that. They're gonna want me to have an answer to that. ⁓ And at the time I didn't because as much as I felt a lot of pride around being a Jewish person, and I do feel very culturally Jewish, I was in my own process of trying to figure out how much the religious aspect was gonna be part of my life. ⁓ ⁓ did all the things. I grew up, I went to Sunday school ⁓ week. I had a bat mitzvah, I was confirmed. ⁓ I really loved my Jewish community. Growing up, they were really good friends of mine and it was like a really stable part of my learning to become a human. But... Once I went to college, I didn't find a school to participate in. Although I did go to school in New York and was around a lot of East Coast Jews, which was its own learning. ⁓ But yeah, so I learned that pretty immediately. It was hard, I think, for me because I had not spent a ton of time around religious people and I had a lot of personal judgments. ⁓ much judgment around specific religions, ⁓ the harm that religion has caused ⁓ the world. And suddenly I was faced with all these people who really took this seriously. This was their identity. So many of my peers ⁓ the time had come into chaplaincy from a history of ministry. ⁓ was a really important part of their identity. And so I almost felt like I was cosplaying. ⁓ I wanted to stay in the schooling. I was very committed, I'm very stubborn, and I did have this feeling that if I just got through this part, I could enter into the working world and be the version of the chaplain I wanted to be. And so I was wrestling with myself the whole time, trying to hold on to the belief that I could make this what I wanted, and believing that there were people like me who would want a chaplain like me. ⁓ while also being challenged by the fact that I did not see that. I didn't have a role model. I didn't know anybody who was doing that. And so it took some patience, but I also ⁓ not going to drop out. Yeah, because of the stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it sounds ⁓ you had some hope for this role, ⁓ it would, allow you to engage with people in grief, ⁓ in suffering, in way that was different than social services and ⁓ social ⁓ Yeah. I think because of my social work, I had enough practice ⁓ being people who are experiencing traumatic events. or moments of transition or prolonged suffering that I knew there was a role out there for people who were going to accompany others in those moments. And so I wasn't necessarily sure that I fit into chaplaincy in the way that it existed, maybe in healthcare or... in ministry, but I did know at least that the skills I was learning would help me even if I immediately went back to social work. Fair enough, yeah. ⁓ yeah, makes sense. feel a chaplaincy school ⁓ general does that. It gives you really excellent skills. So then you came to Portland and started CPE and you met this humanist ⁓ CPE ⁓ and What was that experience like to kind of suddenly come into a space where you were maybe more, maybe not more welcome, but maybe you felt like you fit in more? Like what was that experience like? I definitely wouldn't say I felt like I fit in. Fair enough, fair enough. I can remember my very first day, I had spent no time in hospitals prior to this experience. My very first day, I got there early, very early, because I could not figure out how to even get into the building. And I didn't know where to go and I had to go do a fit test for my mask, which you have to do as a hospital employee, you get fit by the... employee health people and I was waiting there and one of my colleagues, soon-to-be colleagues in my cohort, came around the corner and he was a Dominican friar so he was wearing full white gown, all the garb with this huge black cross. And I saw, and he was so jolly, he reminded me of Santa Claus, like in Santa's off season. And I was like, what have I done? ⁓ What, how I, where am I? ⁓ So came around the corner ⁓ and ⁓ my colleague was a Holy Cross seminarian. ⁓ And I had a non-binary pagan, Unitarian minister was my that was the cohort for the summer and then my humanist educator and I and then me and I was like Maybe I'm Jewish. I don't know. I'm here And ⁓ so much of that first summer Being particularly with that cohort of people who are very committed to their spiritual and religious identities was me dealing with a lot of questions of am I enough? ⁓ I Jewish enough? Am I religious enough? Am I enough enough to be a chaplain? And ⁓ so of what this educator did for me ⁓ was help me unravel that and also convince me that I am enough, my own orientation brings a particular set of skills to this work. And here we were in this level one trauma center dealing with the worst physical mental health crises, traumatic experiences that anyone might go through ending up in this building. And while I didn't necessarily know to pray that our father, ⁓ certainly ⁓ how to show up in a crisis ⁓ so ⁓ could bring things to my peers ⁓ then they would teach me things in return and so ⁓ initial summer ⁓ continued into the year residency I did afterwards ⁓ definitely a process of ⁓ myself that I am enough. ⁓ That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful because I feel like, especially in these settings where it's so steeped in religion and spirituality, I understand that experience of being around ⁓ intense people who are in it, ⁓ you're kind of representing... but also you're representing a whole population of people in the world ⁓ ⁓ their spiritual connection looks different for them ⁓ doesn't look as institutionalized ⁓ or ⁓ it looks than folks. And I'm glad, I'm so glad that you were like kind of working on. I am enough. I am enough and I'm curious about that I'm really curious about how you would describe your spirituality and how you describe being humanist ⁓ and Because guessing that forming that because for me CPE was a lot about forming my understanding of what I believed ⁓ and really it down ⁓ My teacher was very intense that He was like you need to write everything down you need to be really clear ⁓ about what you believe ⁓ and I don't think everybody a CPE teacher ⁓ will do that but it's part of it is forming yourself so what did you form like what did you discover about your spirituality and ⁓ what ended up convincing you that you were enough? That is a good question. And I will say, while I'm much further in the process of believing I'm enough, certainly I believe I'm enough to be a good chaplain, but I am still becoming enough all the time. I understand that deeply. Yeah. ⁓ Well, that too, because I had to reckon with my own identity in how I showed up professionally amongst my colleagues. But that was also being tested all the time with patient interactions, because oftentimes I would walk into a room and people would ask, you know, what's your faith or what church do you go to? And so I had to do a lot of practicing an elevator pitch. Yeah. Proud to do that. And I still kind of have a foot in both worlds. So there are times when I'll walk into a room and from engaging with this patient, I can tell that being of an organized religion is really important to them. In that case, I will say I'm Jewish. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. And while that may not fit or match their religion, they at least project that I have a particular understanding and respect for religion as an organization and an orienting system. However, I will also take the chance and say I'm a humanist. And usually, Well, immediately they'll say, is that? Never have I said that. And someone says, yes, I understand completely. And the way I describe it is I believe in the power of human connection. And that's a hard one to refute. I've never had anyone be like, no I've definitely had people say great bring me the Christian like You know or they'll ask, know, but do you believe in God? ⁓ And usually people are curious enough that it will turn into an interesting conversation. Yeah, and I do think that people who people who love their faith and are excited to talk about their beliefs, they get to fulfill their need for self-efficacy by teaching me about their belief system. And then we're having a conversation between two people who believe things and how we make sense of the world, which to me is chaplaincy. We're engaging in meaning-making together. ⁓ ⁓ they'll say something along the lines of like, believe in that too but I believe in that for the power of Jesus Christ or in honor of whatever whatever the sacrifice is made whatever or you know yes ⁓ the all-knowing God So we can turn into good conversations. The way I think about humanism for me, well, that one's so complicated. If I'm actually talking to another person who is spiritual and wants to know about the intricacies of it, then this is a long conversation, because I pull so many influences from... Nature is a huge one, poetry, music, my previous lived experiences. I also think my Jewish upbringing, my understanding of Judaism has left a huge mark in some of the work I did in CPE. I ended up writing this paper about how my humanism is my Judaism in praxis. ⁓ love that. Yeah, so growing up like L'edor V'edor, which is from generation to generation, is a is like a Jewish saying, a Jewish ethos, which was said a lot in my household. And Tikkun Olam, which means repair the world, those were two kind of guiding principles that my family used a lot to create orienting systems for my family system. And to me, those are humanist practices. like, la door of a door, I am constantly thinking about how do I improve the world I live in and leave it better for those coming after me? How do I seek out gratitude for what was left for me? And so it's not so much about preparing for an afterlife or what comes next, the what comes next is what I can do for those who come next. repair the world, mean that's... Yeah, there's not much more you need to say about that. So yeah, and then also, I mean, I really do believe in the power of human connection. think inner connectedness is where, is the beginning of hope. So that's how I've come to understand my spirituality. it's ⁓ so and it's really interesting was raised Unitarian Universalist, but I was raised Unitarian Universalist amongst a lot of humanists. So I very much understand the vibe in my family, an extended family was very much humanism. And it rooted in Unitarian Universalism, which I would say is about as humanist of a religion as you could get. It's the humanist religion. that makes space for people to believe in God and all those things. that, everything you were just speaking to really reminds me and makes me incredibly grateful for the upbringing that I had because it gave me this foundation of spirituality that is not necessarily rooted in an all-knowing God. or in an afterlife stuff or here are the rules and regulations to be a good person. As a spirituality that's rooted in what does it mean to connect with another human being? What does it mean to tend to the human world and tend to the animal world and tend to nature and tend to the earth? And these days, the more work that I do, The more educating I am I'm teaching people around that is rooted in essentially humanism, which is like, okay, what brings you connection? What brings you meaning making? ⁓ Where ⁓ do you your ⁓ Where do you find peace in the midst suffering? I think have a lot to learn from humanism and a lot to learn from people like you ⁓ who are much kind of, ⁓ you're very ⁓ living your and you're showing up for people in really intense spaces ⁓ as a humanist sometimes you kind of have to, I love that, you're like sometimes I have to say I'm Jewish, which I understand. ⁓ Sometimes you kind of have to be sure I believe in Jesus because it helps the person who you're working with. so I really appreciate what you're saying because it really resonates with this podcast and everything that I'm really trying to teach the world. spirituality doesn't need to look like this one particular thing. you and I have been doing groups ⁓ for Pear and have been exploring ⁓ helping ⁓ with grief And ⁓ I'm curious, ⁓ you'd earlier that working with people in grief was huge influence you in becoming a chaplain. ⁓ And is that still a passion of yours? Where does that come into your work right now? Will you speak on grief and humanism? Yes Yeah, where do I want to take this question? you can take it anywhere. Okay. Yeah, I mean I think if the way I define humanism is the power of human connection, then the way I see myself valuable as a chaplain is through accompaniment in others' experiences, which could look like anything. ⁓ Chaplains don't always need to show up in the worst moment of someone's life. It could be a moment of celebration. Yes. That's always an important reminder. Yes. Those are perhaps more rare. I have seen many... many people who maintain an attitude of gratitude. hate that it just rhymed that. I did not mean for that to come out that way. Now I'm a camp counselor. Attitude of gratitude everyone. Yikes. ⁓ However, ⁓ people who go through really challenging things and are able to maintain their appreciation for what they have and how they've gone through it. ⁓ But I will say My experience being at a one trauma center was that it was seeing a lot ⁓ of traumatic and a lot of prolonged suffering. ⁓ It also is hospital that served a lot of marginalized identities. ⁓ It was connected ⁓ the one behavioral hospital in the city. ⁓ And so a of patients were experiencing ⁓ extreme psychosis. ⁓ a huge shift or loss in identity. ⁓ And in my CPE program, I was taught to define trauma as the shattering of everyday absolutisms. And so often I am joining people in their disorientation as they are trying to now re-understand the world as it exists based off of the experience they just had that is radically different than the world they knew moments, hours, days before. And that experience for me in joining someone in that is about meeting them where they are, getting a sense of ⁓ they're engaging in their meaning making, ⁓ helps me better understand where they're at in their coping. ⁓ then how do I best. ⁓ serve them as myself a tool in the process. And so ⁓ don't ⁓ go into experiences ⁓ ⁓ is spirituality or religiosity going to help. My framework ⁓ is using subjectivity, ⁓ which this theory that ⁓ two people will create something unique and special together based off of what they're each bringing. And I keep that in mind knowing that I'll never meet the same patient twice in the sense that so much happens in a hospital during someone's stay. I never know what was going on in the room right before I walk in or what they're maybe anticipating once I leave. And while they may be in the same bed and not much looks like it's happened, so much goes on for somebody in their hospitalization. And so I always leave room for re-meeting that person where they are on that day. But also, I'm different every day. And I bring different things. ⁓ when i first started i really wanted to understand religion and so i was asking my colleagues all the time like okay well what does what does this mean for a Pentecostal? What does this mean for a Buddhist? What does this mean for X, Y, and Z? And then I would try and apply that to patients who were marked that religion. And what I've learned is that every single person lives their religion differently. So I might be able to understand certain frameworks. ⁓ values, practices of a particular religion, but that does not mean that that person does it that way. ⁓ And so I just have to be curious. And so many people's relationships with God or a higher power are so different that I also can't make assumptions about that. You you walk into a room and someone has a really ⁓ a really loving version of God who's always looking out for them and will hold them in their darkest moment. You walk into the next room, God is punishing them. You can't use the same mentality for both people. So I do think a big part of the humanist experience of being a chaplain is being adaptable and just bringing my self in relationship with that person's self and seeing what we brew in our own alchemy of two humans meeting. Becky, I love that so much and I feel like it's ⁓ well said. I'm so glad that was recorded. And I really, I'm gonna say something I think the sign of a good chaplain ⁓ is a chaplain who is coming in from a humanist ⁓ lens. We in school in CPE hear all the horror stories of chaplains ⁓ all of those chaplains come in religion first. ⁓ I almost think ⁓ coming in religion ⁓ or even spiritually first ⁓ not the way to go. ⁓ way to go is to come in human first. ⁓ ⁓ CPE, a phrase that was tossed around a lot in our class was that we were trying to become professional humans. ⁓ And I always really loved that because that's what it felt like the formation of becoming a chaplain and then also the practice of being a chaplain ⁓ about really showing up fully as human being and it's deeply human as deeply humanist ⁓ and ⁓ the chaplains I know doesn't matter what their religion is ⁓ it does not matter because you're right like every single Person spirituality and religion is different day to day. Yes. Yes ⁓ or intense things happen or beautiful things happen, our spirituality fluctuates and shifts and our religious beliefs fluctuate and shifts. chaplains which is powerful is we show up as ourselves and we see what alchemy can happen ⁓ when we allow people to be in a really human space ⁓ and ⁓ to ⁓ struggle and wrestle with ⁓ only spirituality everything that's happening. inside of them. So I think that what you said was really beautiful and I really appreciate that because luckily more and more chaplain training is orienting towards what you're saying. More and more chaplains are learning that okay we need to show up not religion first because it has nothing to do with religion ultimately. It has everything to do with our human-ness and our spirit. just the wildness of being alive I was curious. Do you ever run into atheists ⁓ and ⁓ agnostics and are so to see you? ⁓ Do you ever have experiences? you were talking a lot about your experiences with religious folks ⁓ But do you ever run into, because I that atheists and may not ask for a chaplain, but. ⁓ you got on that experience yet? Definitely yes and what's interesting so I think if I working in a hospital there are certain things you go to whether you're asked for or not meaning we tend to every death we tend to most major codes and will just show up. And so sometimes the people we're showing up for are not religious and they don't immediately know how to utilize a chaplain. And that's where I think my particular skills or any chaplain's particular skills at building rapport quickly, at de-escalation, at connection. ⁓ That's where we can shine in being like, I'm just here to build a relationship with you and then we'll decide together what, how I can help, what I, what you need for me. sometimes it's as simple as getting ⁓ of water. but being the one person in the hospital who doesn't have an immediate medical role ⁓ in moment and has the space to tend to someone, in their experience ⁓ of their ⁓ needs that way. And sometimes someone will be distressed and then the nurse will say, ⁓ this person's crying, call a chaplain. And again, I'll show up and they might be like, I don't really know, or they'll just start talking. They do know. ⁓ But they'll, you know, share their story. And then at the end be like, and I'm not religious or whatever. And then I have the opportunity to say, neither am I. ⁓ And I think especially because my background is in social work, for people who are not religious, often they will say, how did you end up in this role? And then I'll say I was a social worker for a long time. And I missed the like, I missed having time that was unbound by. billing or funding or a huge caseload to just be with people. And that's how I found chaplaincy. And that usually makes people feel more comfortable because most people know like, ⁓ social workers, they help people in hard times. ⁓ I will say people who are staunchly atheist ⁓ are usually the ones I have the hardest time connecting with because people who all show up and say I'm a chaplain and they're immediately like I'm not religious, I'm an atheist, whatever they have already decided how they feel about chaplains and whether I say I'm a humanist or I'm not religious or whatever they've already decided I'm not the role for them and I want to push myself on anybody, although there are certainly moments where I'm like, but if I could just get ⁓ in there. used to joke in my CPE cohort that I would weasel my way into situations. do think I'm particularly skilled at kind of finding the right question to get myself into the room and then finding a way to stay. ⁓ And there are times when that works and is successful. But for people who, and I don't judge this because so many people have their own experiences with religion that could leave. scars of whatever type and they don't want to see someone in a religious role. And so I would say the hardest part for me as being a humanist is trying to combat people's preconceived ideas of what a chaplain is. It's almost easier if people are, if I walk in and someone says, don't know what a chaplain does, then I'm like, great, I get to decide how to form this for you. But people who think they know and have decided it's not for them, I often, I will of course respect it, but I often feel sad that they aren't open to a support role that could be helpful for them in that moment. Yeah, oh I totally, yeah, I totally resonate with everything you said and I understand that and yeah, it's... It's really, it is hard when people are just like absolutely not. It's like, no, but you kind of need it. Trust me. And also religious trauma is so real. I mean, I do think the field of chaplaincy is shifting. Yes. Particularly as... the world becomes harder to live in and therefore people suffering in crises are more aplenty. But also... as people's ⁓ connection to an identification with organized religion is decreasing. And so there is this role emerging, this need emerging for chaplains who are trained in crisis intervention and can show up in those situations. And it's hard when you work on a team. where not everyone feels that same way and has the same skill set. And then I know, well, I'm seeing you today. I don't know who you might see tomorrow. And so I wanna make sure that I am both being professional and respectful of my colleagues. protecting the safety of this person. And so even if I am a chaplain who can go into the room of a atheist person and we can connect, I do want to make sure that I'm charting that in a way or passing that off in a way that sets that patient up for success for whoever comes in the door after me. Right, and that I think a real conversation around how ⁓ how chaplaincy operate right now ⁓ and can we ⁓ shift even more to operate in a better to face the changing landscape of religion and spirituality and you're right just it's harder to live in this world that's such a true statement ⁓ ⁓ as a profession more and more people are interested in it ⁓ ⁓ the catch-up still with seminaries and chaplaincy schools ⁓ of how to really people ⁓ in kind of the ways you're talking about, because what we need is you, and versions of you, and myself included, I very much have the same approach as you do. And also the institutions that do have integrated chaplaincy into their system, which is amazing and rare. we need more institutions doing that, but the institutions that are doing it, like hospitals. I do see the system of chaplaincy in hospitals as not yet where it could be to meet the rising needs. I'm curious what you think of that. Do you agree with that? You can disagree with that. Well, I think I disagree that it's hospital specific. I think there is an old guard and a new wave of chaplains. Yeah. Yeah. and... And so I think where the tension is, is not necessarily hospital specific or location specific, but actually in the world of chaplaincy. That there is a rub between people who are used to doing it a particular way and then people who are reimagining what the field could be. Okay, I like that. I really like that. I have worked now in two different hospitals. One of them, because it was a trauma center, ⁓ entire team was much more geared towards doing crisis intervention in their chaplaincy. ⁓ the way that the interdisciplinary team knows how to utilize chaplains ⁓ from that lens of how to support in crisis de-escalation. ⁓ Whereas, ⁓ some of the places I've worked since, the hospitals have a different orientation. They're not ⁓ crisis centers and the way chaplains are utilized are different. There is also ⁓ a between hospitals who ⁓ have clergy on staff versus hospitals that work with community clergy, but the chaplain team is not necessarily made up of clergy. ⁓ And so it just brings different perspectives into the way that the history of chaplaincy as a field is maintained in that particular team. Interesting. Okay, that really does go to show, and this is something that I've thought a lot about is just the shifts that are happening right now in the field of chaplaincy in general. There's so much fluctuation right now, and it's kind of exciting because there are more and more people like yourself and more and more hospitals like the one that you're speaking to that was a trauma level one trauma center that I've heard that there are people who are really kind of showing ⁓ the chaplaincy role in a different way. I think that for me personally, issue with hospitals ⁓ has actually always been how many they forced chaplains to do And I'm like, anybody who's forcing a chaplain to do a 12 hour shift should be giving them $60 an hour. And there should be like 20 chaplains on staff, I think that's, to me, that's how I wish the field of chaplaincy would change is double the pay and shorter hours and acknowledge the heaviness of this work, how intense and important it is, how it's just too much. It's too much if you overwork your chaplains. 100 %! Especially because to be a chaplain in a hospital, ⁓ you have to a master's degree education. ⁓ There's tons of schooling you have to do after that, like a residency where you're being paid absolutely nothing. You're working crazy hours. ⁓ You're working ⁓ overnights, weekends, during the day, your homework on top of that, and then you end up in the field and you're making nothing. $35 an hour. Yeah. Until you hit what five, six years and then maybe you're getting $40 something dollars an hour. Yes. What? Absolutely. And these are the people who are, you know, somebody's... Actively dying and their child is dying. Yeah, the person who's walking into the room and saying here Let me support you. Yes. Why are you not getting a hundred dollars? ⁓ I take you a hundred dollars. There we go ⁓ I ⁓ but think again all of that is shifting and changing and you're kind of on the cutting edge. How does that feel? ⁓ You know Do my job! Also, I'm on the cutting edge of change, but you know, the way to become, the way to get certified and endorsed in chaplaincy still very much requires a master's in divinity or equivalency. And I will then need to prove why my master's in social work is a worthy equivalency. you can be endorsed in your specific religion, the one humanist endorsing body. is an option and not every place recognizes it. you know, yes I do feel like change is coming, it's inevitable, but I still am a marginalized identity within this profession and have to do a lot of hoop jumping to... prove that I have the background and the skills to support my work. Damn, that's wild. I that's wild and I understand. I mean, think that interfaith is maybe the humanists are at the bottom and interfaith is one step above it. So I got a little edge. ⁓ But understand. the ones when we're in our 50s and 60s who are gonna be spearheading this in the ways that we can and teaching and hopefully, I mean, I don't know if that resonates with you. ⁓ giving you that job. like when you're older, I need you to help me out. Keep me employed forever. Thank you for being here. Really, really awesome conversation. Thank you for having me. ⁓ love talking about chapter. It's really fun. Yeah, especially with you. It's a good it's a good time. Because we approach a situation as humans, connecting with humans, we don't have... scripts in our minds that we're operating off of and so I think that the creativity that I have as a humanist to find solutions to assist someone in meaning making are so abundant because I don't have something that's been taught to me to fall back on in particular moments. ⁓ I love, I love, this so well said. That's so well said That's how I feel about why I love Street Chaplaincy is because it really does. You have no choice. Even if you come in with a script, that script is going to get thrown on the floor. If you want to work with folks in deep poverty, you have to come in as deeply creative. You have to in with every piece of creativity you have in your body. And it's what makes it such engaging profession and you're taking that and applying that to hospital chaplaincy and hospice chaplaincy and that's yeah I think everybody should be doing that. Yeah the whole the whole point boils down to co-creation. Yeah co-creation. Yeah.