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I'm John Batchelor, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang, measuring
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the weeks of preparation for the days of meetings between
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the elected President Trump of America and the unelected President
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Xi of the Chinese Communist Party in Washington. Steve Yates
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joins of the Heritage Foundation. We're focusing on Taiwan because
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that is the sharp edge Steve, a very good day
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to you. The summaries I saw from Europe and from
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America agree that the pomp was spectacular. The policy, not
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so much. However, Taiwan is the point where everything turns
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on readiness, on ability to fend off violence, and building
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for a day when there is confidence that Taiwan is secure.
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I saw nothing to address that. not about arms sales,
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not about accommodation, not about visits, nothing. But I was
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reading very quickly. Did I miss something in the policy
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conversations between the two presidents? Good day to you, Steve.
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Good day, John.
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Well, I think that is one of the more conspicuous
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elements of the conversation. There were a lot of very,
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very prominent policy exercises. It distracted, I think, a lot
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of people in their analysis of things. Symbolism matters to
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a degree because a lot of what Xi Jinping came
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to do was to send signals back to home. And
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so there is some value in what those exercises were.
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And on net, Xi Jinping got some pretty strong images
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to send back to his people.
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There were some mixed messages in it.
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For instance, the The music that was played at the
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state dinner, one could choose to interpret. Do you hear
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the people sing from the Les Mis musical? Is that
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subversive or is that just a pretty song? When they
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went to the National Archives and looked at historical documents
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that were related to the unequal treaties period, was that
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a subtle humiliation? Once again, at the beginning of the
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century of humiliation, the Communist Party likes to talk about
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But I consider a lot of that to be a wash.
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On substance, the uncertainty about.
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Taiwan really came after the May summit when President Trump
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went to Beijing.
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And that had to do with the delay on arms.
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Sales and whether arms sales to Taiwan were a negotiating chip.
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There was nothing that I could see that changed that
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situation in this visit. So no backsliding in this summit.
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One could say that passes quickly. what people refer to
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as the Hippocratic Oath, that they didn't do harm on
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that or further harm, one might say. But I didn't
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really hear very much beyond that. In fact, Xi Jinping's
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talking points, by all accounts so far, seem to have been.
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Relatively standard and minimal.
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There have been people who thought he was going to
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push extra hard, having sensed an opportunity in May.
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I might have been susceptible to that logic going in.
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I see nothing so far that anything really moved Although
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the arms sale package to Taiwan, around $ 14 billion, remains
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in stasis.
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Gordon, you have a question for Steve.
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Steve, our ambassador to Beijing, David Perdue, yesterday said that
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President Trump offered to sell arms to China. Was this
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a joke? Was he serious? Was he just sort of
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daring Xi Jinping to sort of an intimidation move? The
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administration says it has no plans to sell arms, and
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that's the response to Perdue's comments. But what do you
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think is happening?
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Well, I think it's a bit of a Rorschach test
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on how people read President Trump. I'm mindful of that
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ever-important cultural relic known as My Cousin Vinny the movie,
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where a famous New Yorker with a New York accent
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is in jail in the American South. And when challenged
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with the notion that he shot the clerk, he says,
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I shot the clerk? I shot the clerk? And then
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in the transcript being read back in the trial, the
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sheriff deadpan says, and I asked him, he said, I
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shot the clerk. And it all comes in the intonation
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and your read on New York sarcasm or.
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Disbelief and questioning. And so I don't take that literally.
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I take it as sort of Trump's playful nature that
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goes out of bounds in accepted diplomacy by most people.
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But he's talking about these arms sales and he just
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sort of turns and says, so do you want to
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buy them? Not that we're about to sell them. That's
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my sense. I've heard no serious person in any serious
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position say we're actually looking to do that.
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I think it was more of this kind.
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Of personal reference and rapport activity that President Trump has
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with Xi Jinping, which is, I have to admit, a
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little hard for me to take. In some ways, at
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the same time, there's some tectonic plates that are moving,
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I think, to America's advantage.
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We need to keep doing more of that.
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These are two senior figures. They will not be with
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us making policy in X number of years. There are
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voices and eyes watching all of this. Are we looking
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at Taiwan as old man's concerns, old man's Oldsmobile? Are
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we looking at Taiwan of the future? Can we tell?
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Well, John, really, it comes down to, in my estimation,
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the Chinese people.
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They have been run through a political warfare exercise their
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entire existence. And my good friend Buck Sexton wrote a
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book called Manufacturing Delusion. It does a pretty good job
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of going through the mechanics of how people are taught
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to accept false frames and then begin to organize their
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lives around that. But the Chinese people face much greater
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challenges than anything relevant to Taiwan. And if they focus
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on the challenges they face internally, the Taiwan problem is
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managed because they have to take care of issues for themselves.
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That's why I want the arms package to move. I
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think that actually extends the peace.
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Gordon, you have a question.
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Steve, on the arms package, which you've been talking about,
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the Trump administration greenlighted an $ 11 billion arms package, the
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biggest in history. But you're referring to the $ 14 billion
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arms package that was negotiated, settled, and has now not
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been greenlighted. What do you expect specifically about that? Is
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that something that President Trump was just sort of waiting
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for this summit to be over? Or do you think
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that that's on permanent red light?
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Well, I hope it's not on permanent red light substantively,
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just because I think that would be a massive change
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in policy and strategy today.
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And one that I consider to actually increase risk.
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And so I think that would be contrary to what
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I understand the president's objectives to be, but I might
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not have a perfect understanding of that. I do think
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that there has been a notion that I consider to
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be false, that the Chinese lead American counterparts into pulling
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their punches in the periods before, during, and after summits.
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And then the Chinese strategically use meetings as a way
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of delaying things that they consider to be unpleasant, whether
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it's application of sanctions, arms sales to Taiwan, military exercises
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in the Indo-Pacific. And there have been multiple presidents who've
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actually done that. Now, the Chinese don't return the favor.
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They will test missiles. They will engage in coercive activity
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during engagements with American leaders. So I've always found that
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you actually get more seriousness of purpose from them when
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you prove you're willing to move where you in your.
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National interest think you must.
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And then you can talk brass tacks in person about
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the why if they care to hear it, but otherwise.
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Do what you need to do.
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And ultimately, they have an odd way of respecting that.
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So I think the president should move forward. Unfortunately, if
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they've bought this notion of withholding because meetings are coming,
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they've committed to the president going to Shenzhen, China for
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the APEC summit in November and and having Xi Jinping
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come to Miami, Florida in December for the G20 summit.
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And that would basically put the clock into early 2027,
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which in the grand scheme of things, if this were
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to move forward, then it would have been unfortunate, but
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not a lot lost with that half-year timing difference.
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A prominent military figure has used the metaphor of hellscape.
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Gordon and Lydia taught me this last week, so I'm
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using it here. Did that come up in this conversation?
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Is that an alarm bell saying that no matter... How
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President Trump presents the gold plate. The military has a
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plan and the plan means pain for you. Did that
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come up?
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Well, I don't know if it came up directly from
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President Trump. I think that he's playing this communications game
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of magnifying the good feelings, the personal rapport, leader to leader,
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and then the people behind him have the most powerful
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toolbox in the history of mankind with the financial tools
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of the Treasury, the Department of War with some very,
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very powerful tools that have actually improved with our allies
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in recent years. And Marco Rubio is a pretty effective
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strategic communicator as well. And John Ratcliffe of the CIA
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has been trying to improve the toolkit there. And so
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I do think that there's some things communicated. And it
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was conspicuous that our commander for the Pacific conspicuously gave
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a public statement saying that we're not really– looking so
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much at whether we would intervene or if we hit China,
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it's really the magnitude of pain we would be able
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to inflict. And it's not even a question in his
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mind about whether we would win. It's by how much
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and how much devastation would be occurred. So he kind
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of implied what you were alluding to in your question.
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And if that somewhat comes from the right source, it
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would probably go down a little bit heavier if it
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came from the president, and that wouldn't be all bad.
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Steve Yates of the Heritage Foundation, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang,
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podcasts of our conversation about the visit of Xi Jinping,
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available with illustrations and analysis at Amazon Prime, at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
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and other distinguished venues. I'm John Bashler.
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I'm John Batchelor, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang, measuring
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the weeks of preparation for the days of meetings between
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the elected President Trump of America and the unelected President
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Xi of the Chinese Communist Party in Washington. Steve Yates
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joins of the Heritage Foundation. We're focusing on Taiwan because
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that is the sharp edge Steve, a very good day
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to you. The summaries I saw from Europe and from
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America agree that the pomp was spectacular. The policy, not
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so much. However, Taiwan is the point where everything turns
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on readiness, on ability to fend off violence, and building
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for a day when there is confidence that Taiwan is secure.
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I saw nothing to address that. not about arms sales,
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not about accommodation, not about visits, nothing. But I was
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reading very quickly. Did I miss something in the policy
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conversations between the two presidents? Good day to you, Steve.
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Good day, John.
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Well, I think that is one of the more conspicuous
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elements of the conversation. There were a lot of very,
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very prominent policy exercises. It distracted, I think, a lot
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of people in their analysis of things. Symbolism matters to
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a degree because a lot of what Xi Jinping came
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to do was to send signals back to home. And
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so there is some value in what those exercises were.
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And on net, Xi Jinping got some pretty strong images
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to send back to his people.
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There were some mixed messages in it.
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For instance, the The music that was played at the
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state dinner, one could choose to interpret. Do you hear
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the people sing from the Les Mis musical? Is that
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subversive or is that just a pretty song? When they
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went to the National Archives and looked at historical documents
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that were related to the unequal treaties period, was that
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a subtle humiliation? Once again, at the beginning of the
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century of humiliation, the Communist Party likes to talk about
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But I consider a lot of that to be a wash.
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On substance, the uncertainty about.
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Taiwan really came after the May summit when President Trump
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went to Beijing.
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And that had to do with the delay on arms.
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Sales and whether arms sales to Taiwan were a negotiating chip.
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There was nothing that I could see that changed that
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situation in this visit. So no backsliding in this summit.
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One could say that passes quickly. what people refer to
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as the Hippocratic Oath, that they didn't do harm on
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that or further harm, one might say. But I didn't
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really hear very much beyond that. In fact, Xi Jinping's
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talking points, by all accounts so far, seem to have been.
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Relatively standard and minimal.
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There have been people who thought he was going to
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push extra hard, having sensed an opportunity in May.
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I might have been susceptible to that logic going in.
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I see nothing so far that anything really moved Although
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the arms sale package to Taiwan, around $ 14 billion, remains
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in stasis.
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Gordon, you have a question for Steve.
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Steve, our ambassador to Beijing, David Perdue, yesterday said that
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President Trump offered to sell arms to China. Was this
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a joke? Was he serious? Was he just sort of
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daring Xi Jinping to sort of an intimidation move? The
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administration says it has no plans to sell arms, and
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that's the response to Perdue's comments. But what do you
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think is happening?
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Well, I think it's a bit of a Rorschach test
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on how people read President Trump. I'm mindful of that
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ever-important cultural relic known as My Cousin Vinny the movie,
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where a famous New Yorker with a New York accent
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is in jail in the American South. And when challenged
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with the notion that he shot the clerk, he says,
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I shot the clerk? I shot the clerk? And then
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in the transcript being read back in the trial, the
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sheriff deadpan says, and I asked him, he said, I
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shot the clerk. And it all comes in the intonation
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and your read on New York sarcasm or.
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Disbelief and questioning. And so I don't take that literally.
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I take it as sort of Trump's playful nature that
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goes out of bounds in accepted diplomacy by most people.
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But he's talking about these arms sales and he just
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sort of turns and says, so do you want to
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buy them? Not that we're about to sell them. That's
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my sense. I've heard no serious person in any serious
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position say we're actually looking to do that.
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I think it was more of this kind.
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Of personal reference and rapport activity that President Trump has
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with Xi Jinping, which is, I have to admit, a
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little hard for me to take. In some ways, at
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the same time, there's some tectonic plates that are moving,
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I think, to America's advantage.
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We need to keep doing more of that.
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These are two senior figures. They will not be with
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us making policy in X number of years. There are
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voices and eyes watching all of this. Are we looking
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at Taiwan as old man's concerns, old man's Oldsmobile? Are
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we looking at Taiwan of the future? Can we tell?
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Well, John, really, it comes down to, in my estimation,
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the Chinese people.
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They have been run through a political warfare exercise their
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entire existence. And my good friend Buck Sexton wrote a
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book called Manufacturing Delusion. It does a pretty good job
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of going through the mechanics of how people are taught
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to accept false frames and then begin to organize their
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lives around that. But the Chinese people face much greater
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challenges than anything relevant to Taiwan. And if they focus
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on the challenges they face internally, the Taiwan problem is
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managed because they have to take care of issues for themselves.
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That's why I want the arms package to move. I
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think that actually extends the peace.
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Gordon, you have a question.
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Steve, on the arms package, which you've been talking about,
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the Trump administration greenlighted an $ 11 billion arms package, the
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biggest in history. But you're referring to the $ 14 billion
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arms package that was negotiated, settled, and has now not
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been greenlighted. What do you expect specifically about that? Is
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that something that President Trump was just sort of waiting
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for this summit to be over? Or do you think
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that that's on permanent red light?
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Well, I hope it's not on permanent red light substantively,
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just because I think that would be a massive change
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in policy and strategy today.
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And one that I consider to actually increase risk.
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And so I think that would be contrary to what
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I understand the president's objectives to be, but I might
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not have a perfect understanding of that. I do think
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that there has been a notion that I consider to
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be false, that the Chinese lead American counterparts into pulling
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their punches in the periods before, during, and after summits.
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And then the Chinese strategically use meetings as a way
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of delaying things that they consider to be unpleasant, whether
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it's application of sanctions, arms sales to Taiwan, military exercises
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in the Indo-Pacific. And there have been multiple presidents who've
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actually done that. Now, the Chinese don't return the favor.
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They will test missiles. They will engage in coercive activity
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during engagements with American leaders. So I've always found that
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you actually get more seriousness of purpose from them when
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you prove you're willing to move where you in your.
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National interest think you must.
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And then you can talk brass tacks in person about
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the why if they care to hear it, but otherwise.
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Do what you need to do.
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And ultimately, they have an odd way of respecting that.
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So I think the president should move forward. Unfortunately, if
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they've bought this notion of withholding because meetings are coming,
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they've committed to the president going to Shenzhen, China for
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the APEC summit in November and and having Xi Jinping
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come to Miami, Florida in December for the G20 summit.
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And that would basically put the clock into early 2027,
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which in the grand scheme of things, if this were
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to move forward, then it would have been unfortunate, but
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not a lot lost with that half-year timing difference.
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A prominent military figure has used the metaphor of hellscape.
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Gordon and Lydia taught me this last week, so I'm
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using it here. Did that come up in this conversation?
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Is that an alarm bell saying that no matter... How
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President Trump presents the gold plate. The military has a
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plan and the plan means pain for you. Did that
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come up?
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Well, I don't know if it came up directly from
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President Trump. I think that he's playing this communications game
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of magnifying the good feelings, the personal rapport, leader to leader,
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and then the people behind him have the most powerful
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toolbox in the history of mankind with the financial tools
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of the Treasury, the Department of War with some very,
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very powerful tools that have actually improved with our allies
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in recent years. And Marco Rubio is a pretty effective
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strategic communicator as well. And John Ratcliffe of the CIA
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has been trying to improve the toolkit there. And so
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I do think that there's some things communicated. And it
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was conspicuous that our commander for the Pacific conspicuously gave
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a public statement saying that we're not really– looking so
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much at whether we would intervene or if we hit China,
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it's really the magnitude of pain we would be able
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to inflict. And it's not even a question in his
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mind about whether we would win. It's by how much
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and how much devastation would be occurred. So he kind
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of implied what you were alluding to in your question.
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And if that somewhat comes from the right source, it
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would probably go down a little bit heavier if it
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came from the president, and that wouldn't be all bad.
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Steve Yates of the Heritage Foundation, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang,
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podcasts of our conversation about the visit of Xi Jinping,
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available with illustrations and analysis at Amazon Prime, at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
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and other distinguished venues. I'm John Bashler.
