A conversation with Hartmut Rosa and Lotte Harbo

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Hello and welcome to this unique podcast about the research project, the Intuitive Encounter.
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And welcome also to a rare and exploratory dialogue between Lore Habo, head of the Research Center for Pedagogy and Participation at Via University College, or HUS, in Denmark.
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And Hartmut Rosa, I'm Professor of Sociology at the University of Jena in Germany.
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I'm also directing the Max Weber Kolleg.
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It's an institute for advanced study at the University of Erfurt.
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And I'm very interested in this project on mentorship because it's it's such an interesting case of human interaction.
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It opens up existential questions and ethical questions, and of course, it opens up very interesting fields into social theory.
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So I'm very much looking forward to uh getting more insights in this project and having uh conversations on all the different aspects of it.
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The conversation is connected to the research project, The Intuitive Encounter.
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And the research project is about the foundation Peneliths, expanding social work with young people facing challenges such as homelessness, loneliness, social vulnerability, and often also more.
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And Penelith Young People chooses their own volunteer mentor, that means that they can say yes or no to the offer of a mentor.
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The project therefore asks what makes these relationships meaningful, what dilemmas arise within them, and how mentors and mentees experiences the encounter from each side.
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At the heart of their conversation between Lori Habo and Derosa is a deceptively simple question.
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What becomes possible when professional social pedagogy and voluntary mentoring meet without one taking over the logic of the other?
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Together Rosa and Habo explore whether a mentor can care for a young person without turning the accounter into a project of correction.
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Can support remain meaningful when progress is uncertain and with repeated setbacks.
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The dialogue leads towards the idea resonance, a relationship in which two people reach out, respond, and are affected by each other without knowing in advance exactly where the encounter will lead.
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A relationship that is shaped not by fixing someone, but by curiosity, recognition, and the hope that something meaningful can grow in the space between them.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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My name is Lotte Habel, and I'm a researcher in the field of social pedagogy.
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I'm a trained social pedagogue myself and have done a PhD in social pedagogy as a professional discipline, but also as a research field and a scientific field.
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And I'm a head of research center of pedagogy and participation at Via University College.
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And we have a focus on pedagogy as an outward-focused field, hence the name Pedagogy and Participation.
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And it's applied science, it's a university college, so all our research is collaborative.
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We work in close cooperation and collaboration with both pedagogues, young people, children, adults, whatever the theme for a specific project is.
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And I'm part of the project here in the role of both being a head of the research center but also as a researcher myself.
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And the specific focus that I bring into this project is both to facilitate action learning processes with the mentors, together with the PhD student who is actually conducting the action learning process.
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So I'm supervising that part.
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And then it's also to continuously explore the meeting between social pedagogy as a professional field, and then volunteer work with young people who meet both social pedagogy and volunteer work.
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And I'm very interested in how those two elements carried by adults often and met by the young people can inform and maybe inspire and maybe challenge each other a bit.
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Yeah, so so that's my part of the project in brief.
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My expectations for the dialogue today with Hartmut Rusa is to explore exactly that meeting and how those two fields can inform, inspire and challenge each other.
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And also I wish that we or I hope that we enter into a dialogue on resonance because it can sometimes take shape in our daily language as something that you can do, create, facilitate on purpose.
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And I see a risk in that when the pedagogical and the everyday language sort of adopt concepts like this.
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I formulated some questions, but actually the the the the sort of the the key horizon that I would like to discuss with you is the whole meeting between social pedagogy slash social work.
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I'm strong on emphasizing social pedagogy as something different than social work.
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So the meeting between disciplines like that and volunteer work when it comes to meeting the same young people.
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Yeah, so it's a kind of three different perspectives or something.
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Yeah, sort of.
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Yeah.
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And basically I'm curious on how do you see that the pedagog social pedagogical perspective and the volunteer perspective or field could um maybe inspire and maybe um encourage and maybe also challenge each other a bit?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And what possibilities there would be in it?
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Um so that's the frame for what I would like to talk with you about.
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Yeah, and maybe explore.
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So the first question I wrote down, and they are very long, so we I'll just read it out and then we'll see.
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So can professional social pedagogy and voluntary mentoring genuinely enrich each other in ways that are experienced as meaningful by the young people themselves?
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And if so, under which conditions could they coexist without one l logic overtaking the other?
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So do you follow?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I think it's it's I think it's a very interesting field, right?
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This kind of mentoring field, because as you say, it's on the one hand, it's a kind of a voluntary work, right?
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Civic engagement.
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On the other hand, it's a kind of pedagogical task, which also has this which always has a sense of a certain form of at le well at le well of at least to some extent, right?
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A kind of educational goal, right?
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A kind of making people grow into a certain shape.
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I mean, I'm a sociologist, right, and speaking from a sociological perspective.
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The whole field of pedagogy and education is uh making young people fit into a system, right?
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But on the other hand, we have this tradition of education, of building in Sherman, right, which means it's not about making fit, it it's about uh uh growing and developing the personality.
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I I think even there is a kind of tension, right, in making people fit into the system, right?
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Make them making them productive, on the other hand, making them grow.
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And then you have this uh voluntary engagement, civic engagement of people in society, right?
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And so I think it's not an easy fit, but if it works, and that would be my hope, and as far as I see it, right, this is a project where it can work, right?
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Then those perspectives kind of mutually support each other instead of hampering and and damaging each other.
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But it's not easy.
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I think there will always be tensions in this in this system.
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When you describe social pedagogy as as um as a field which has an element of sort of including integrating people into systems, I also think at least in a Danish um tradition and the theoretical work that we are developing these years, there's quite an emphasis on social pedagogy as a practice field that's supposed to make you s it's so uh superfluous.
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Yeah.
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When it comes you know, you're going maybe being ahead of the young person, being besides the young person, and then just walking behind because the young person is ready.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, I would say in the end, probably that's the goal, right?
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That there's no longer it needs to be a kind of pedagogical relationship.
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And that's when, for example, mentorship become uh becomes much more like friendship.
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It could could continue then in this way, but then it's symmetrical, right, on the same uh level.
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But I think while there is in the process, right, I think I think for me, I I I mean I think re- I really think that of course, because there is an age difference which is also a difference in experience, right?
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I mean people who are older, they they have seen more of the walks of life, you could see say, right?
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So it's not one person knows it and the other does not know it, right?
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But nevertheless, nevertheless, I think it's it it's a kind of the the the the moment of inspiration, right, is and also a kind of exemplariness, right?
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That uh that the the the pedagogue in that sense or the person who fulfills the pedagogical function is kind of inspiring and is kind of and also you know we know this from uh from for example teachers or or but of course also parents but also uh mentors, right?
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They are also kind of paradigms, there are examples, they are um what we call in German forbuilder, right?
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Which um which which then younger people that even if they you don't they don't necessarily have to follow them, but they take them as a kind of reference point.
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And I think that's okay, right?
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I think in the pedagogical function it's not just to simply mediate, right?
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If if a pedagogue always tells the young per person it's your decision, right?
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You have to find out.
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That might be a bit frustrating too.
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So I think one should not be too quick in uh making the the pedagogical person uh stepping behind.
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No, I agree.
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In my understanding, it's it's um and I hear that in your wording as well, it's um the young persons often participate in multiple communities and groups and whatever.
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Yeah, of course, and there are different needs uh at the at the same time.
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Yeah.
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Um but what I'm curious on is a lot of social pedagogues, if we take it down to a certain practice, a meeting between two people where the one person is a social pedagogue, they would work within a legislation, they would work within an organization with a purpose with everything.
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Whereas the volunteer person who might mean the same young person, does not have those aims and as uh yeah, and as we heard uh from and we know from Binelit's uh organizational descriptions, self-descriptions, it's an ambition to make it almost purpose-free.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And uh I've got two questions that I'd like to discuss with you because on the one hand, I would think that social pedagogy could really be inspired by the meeting between a mentor and a mentee and um and the openness that you also catch on to.
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And on the other hand, I think maybe the volunteers should uh learn from social pedagogy not to be social pedagogy.
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Yeah, because it's social pedagogy would always have a goal.
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Yeah yeah, yes, and uh an ongoing reflection on so when we meet, if we engage in a common third, we go fishing, I'm bad at fishing, you're bad at fishing, but we we get entangled and uh we we uh engage ourselves in in this task and we have a great time.
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But but as a social pedagogue, the the main aim is still for my whole practice to support the young child in in getting back to school.
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Whereas the volunteer could actually just enjoy the fishing.
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Yeah, but you know, you know what I really think?
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I think even for a good pedagogue, right, it's very important to somehow, I would almost say to not have the pedagogical perspective.
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I mean, because I really realize I mean that's something that fascinates me for a long time.
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When you when you watch the interaction between grown-ups and children, right, whether it's parents or godfathers or mothers or whatever it is, right, or mentors or even teachers, it's always this a child plays something.
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Let's say a child is playing or do or dealing with something, right?
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Then the grown-up comes, right, and always wants to show something.
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Oh, look, you can do this, or you have to do this, or don't do it that way.
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Or it's always, it's I I would it's almost like professional deformation, right?
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It's always this view, oh, I have to teach him or her something, right?
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Or to correct something.
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And I think that's really wrong.
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I mean, I I remember uh this, it was really striking for me.
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I read an interview with a kind of it was there was a German kind of program, it was a pedagogue of the year, right?
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And there was a kind of uh pedagogue he was actually working in kindergarten, I think, right?
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And he got the award, right?
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And then there was an interview, and someone said, What do you think that that you do differently, right?
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What's what's your take?
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And he said, Exactly when when I ask a child what he or she is playing, I'm not asking because I want him to learn something, because but it I'm asking because it really interests me.
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I want to see through his eyes or her eyes, right?
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So I really think the pedagogy is a kind of it must be kind it's almost like a side effect, right?
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To engage on the kind of same-level interaction.
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I I encounter a human being, right?
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And and and uh that that should be the take, right?
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So so I think uh this even in pedagogy, right?
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This kind of pedagogical distance is is not the maybe not the good thing.
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And I I I would also I'm I'm I'm just reading this book, uh uh All the Things Shining, I think is called by uh Hubert Reifus and uh Sean Kelly.
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And and they I think their idea is really good.
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They would say, in a uh in a pedagogical relationship, as in a mentorship, right?
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The idea is to to let things shine, which and there are two things shine, right?
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On the one hand, the person.
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But that should be the same with a friendship.
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If you have a friend, right, you want him to thrive or to be in to be a human being in a good way, right?
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Without knowing what that way is, right?
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But also if you do something, it could be fishing, right?
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Let's sort out together how to do fishing well, right?
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And I think if you take that perspective, then this distinction between the pedagogical and and the voluntary work uh perspective is kind of shrinking.
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I think to me that's part of social pedagogy, as I'm trained in it in Denmark.
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I've been part of a lot of um yeah, the development in the UK throughout the last 15 years uh on introducing social pedagogy.
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And uh I've done it with a lot of uh colleagues from Germany.
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And I think this that that element of maybe freedom almost uh that you describe is part of a a tradition in Denmark of uh of social pedagogy.
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But we meet the the discipline or the practice field meet a lot of pressure because uh the professional language becomes an everyday language and uh and other disciplines uh neglected as as a professional language.
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But that's that's my task then as a researcher to uh emphasise it?
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So the volunteers that work as mentors uh in Binneled and meet the same young people as maybe a social pedagogue uh does um in a shelter or wherever it might be the same young man, young woman.
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What what's your perspective on uh should they be inspired by social pedagogy or should they keep uh you know that sort of disciplines uh out?
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That's just a basic uh reflection in this project, I think.
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Yeah, well I well I think I I mean there are probably two kind of problems you could say, or two kind of distinctions.
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I mean, one is uh of course the kind of professional view and ideas you have.
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If you're a professional pedagogue or so, as you said, it would be important if you meet young people in a shelter, for example, to bring them back into school, right?
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Or to give them a home, for example, or to help them find a hobby, maybe, which is maybe just as important, or develop certain certain friendships or social relationships, right?
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So as a as a pedagogue, as a professional, you have certain goals in mind, which is I think there's nothing wrong with it, which which you want to help, right?
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While I think if you're a volunteer, it's a human encounter, all right?
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I encounter another human being, right?
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It's as you as you already said, it's this openness, right?
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So let's see what what we can do.
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But it's not, I I would almost say, you know, I would I mean it's this is very interesting.
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This is something that interests me because I've I've been working on voluntary work too, right?
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But we really had the perspective on the volunteers.
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And we found and we thought, and and that's a lot of writing on this too.
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Volunteer work is good for the volunteers, right?
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Not for the for the objects, right?
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For the whole, for the for the other side.
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It helps if you kind of engage in something, right?
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So um so that that means uh a volunteer who goes there is not in the first place having certain goals, right?
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It's a kind of open meeting.
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Let's see what we can do together.
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But I think it probably doesn't harm.
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I think I mean that's how I assume that work or I think that work could be done in such an organization like Bindeled.
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Um that uh Bindle, right?
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That the two perspectives are kind of in a kind of dialogue and exchange, right?
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It I think it helps the mentors to have a view of what might be important, but also what might be dangers or what what might be problems, right?
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But nevertheless nevertheless, I think mentors should not take the pedagogical perspective in the first in the first place.
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But the but the other problem, of course, is that if you're in a kind of organization, right, you have a kind of you have a kind of uh that's uh that's a question which I find very important.
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Let's jump to that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You have a kind of legal framework, but you also have a kind of financial framework, right?
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So you somehow have to be accountable and and describe on what you're doing and what you're doing with the resources, but also that you're keeping to the kind of legal terms and so on, right?
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So so there's always kind of documentation required and this kind of stuff, right?
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And that I think is a kind of there clearly is a tension and conflict with a kind of open human encounter and a kind of professional work of for accountability and and and reliability.
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So how does it work in that organization?
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It's a main sort of paradox, in my view, when I follow Binelit, um that there is an organizational description that describes and explains to found uh funding parties, for instance, that the they help uh young people into schooling, they help them into works, they help them into all this.
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And that's part of how they get their funding.
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And the description to the volunteer people is that this is a purpose-free relation.
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But the volunteers know that the description to the funding parties is that we help them.
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And uh and we have numerous dilemmas described by mentors in the empirical material where they describe um situations where they actually the young person who is actually the main person in this uh situation, maybe expect them to not have an expectation of them to reduce drinking or uh seek a job or whatever.
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But the mentor is both, you know, feeling an obligation towards actually supporting engagement and participation in society because of the organizational framing, but also as a human perspective that it's hard to to just observe people drink more and more, engage more and more in criminality.
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So I don't know uh it's a it's a really basic paradox in this practice because the the object, as you said, with the what you call it, uh we call them geese.
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Um the object is a young person and i it's not uh building veteran cars or some you know.
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So what use what what a paradox is not solutionable but still but Yeah, but I think the question is whether we whether it needs to be a paradox n necessarily.
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I mean, because I think I mean think of friendship, right?
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I mean we know that a friendship has a lot of beneficial side effects, right?
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If you have a friend, right, you're probably actually that's you can prove that, right?
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Having a friend means becoming healthier, more stable, more reliable, more self-confident, then you become better in what you're doing, whatever it is.
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So you could actually say friendship has a kind of purpose out you could say it has a kind of purpose outside itself, but nevertheless, no one enters.
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It's impossible to kind of do it this kind of functional friendship, right?
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I mean it If you have a friend, you're really interested in this friend.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.839
I mean, that's what friendship means, right?
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.200
I want to be with you.
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:09.599
I want to help you, of course, as I expect you to help me, also, right?
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:13.359
We we are we are we are kind of it's it also depends on kind of sympathy, right?
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:19.680
And not sympathy in the sense of pity, but kind of we are interested in each other, mutual affection, you could say, right?
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:21.839
So I think it's not a paradox of friendship.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.960
Yes, it does have side effects which are beneficial, right?
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.799
But it's not the purpose of friendship.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:31.440
The purpose of friendship is not I I would not say I want to be friends with you because it's good for my health.
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.200
I mean, this simply doesn't work, right?
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.039
It's by the way, it's the same with love, right?
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:37.920
So I would say so.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.279
I think it's that's the way human lives are, right?
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:44.720
I I think the the the it's it's a kind of it's true.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:53.680
These mentorship pro programs for the mentor as for the mentee are a kind of I I would say, I would say it's I I wonder whether you agree with this, right?
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.359
It's a kind of resonant relationship.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:56.319
At least that's the goal.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.279
It doesn't certainly always work, and then that they might end it, right?
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.039
Or they might find it's not a good thing.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.160
But if it works, it's in a kind of excess of resonance.
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.559
There is someone I care about, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.039
And this person maybe cares about me too.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.359
And I have this, that's what resonance is about, right?
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:17.759
Caring, but also feeling a kind of self-efficacy in the sense of I I feel I can reach out to you, right?
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.440
And and and what I say to you is meaningful to you, and the other way around too.
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:25.039
So I would really say the po the i it can become a kind of resonant relationship.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:29.200
And resonance, you cannot enter into resonance in order to fulfill something else.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:32.640
But nevertheless, when there is resonance, it has beneficial side effects.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.799
So I would say maybe it it's not such a such a huge paradox.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.400
I I think it's perfectly okay.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:40.000
But can I challenge that?
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:40.559
Yeah, of course.
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:48.960
Because many of these young people, they're homeless, they have yeah, drug abuse, and human life uh is shaped hardly by drug abuse.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:49.279
Yes.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:57.599
So if you are not in drug abuse yourself and have the same aim of uh getting drugs every day, it can be difficult to have a friendship.
00:23:58.720 --> 00:23:59.920
Yeah, and actually to have a friendship.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.559
So so it's just to sort of uh yeah.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.240
How many of these mentors are in it because they would like to help.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.000
Not because they seek a friend.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:13.599
Yeah, it's not friendship, yeah.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:31.759
So so I get it from the from from the young person's perspective, or maybe like a a f family sort of relative person figure in their life if it's an a woman my age, around fifty and and you're a young person around eighteen, nineteen, uh you know, twenty-five.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.640
That that it's more of a support of a supportive function.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:49.599
So it's not there can be maybe pockets of friendship like experiences and we enjoys having enjoy having an ice cream on the harbor or so so it's a bit of a butt but okay, okay.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:50.640
So maybe I agree.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.279
But but but but I think maybe friendship was the wrong word, right?
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:53.519
Right.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:56.319
But let's try to another thought.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:01.839
I mean, for example, let's say you find a small cat, a kitten in the street, which is hurt, right?
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:02.160
Yeah.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.680
Then you take it home, right?
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:06.799
And then you I mean you simply care for this kitten.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.880
I mean, uh you know the thing is, I think that really and maybe friendship is not a good word.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:15.680
But this idea, I care for something which I want to thrive.
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:16.160
Yes.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:17.359
It's really this, right?
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:19.680
I want it to to be well, right?
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:21.279
To be to to be good.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.839
Uh it's even the same if you have a plant, right?
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:25.039
You find a flower.
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.119
You want it to be healthy, right?
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:28.640
To grow, to thrive.
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.720
And I think that's kind of relationship.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:33.200
I want the best for you, right?
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:40.079
But I would say it it somehow has to get mutual if it's a really if it's a working mentorship, right?
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:40.480
Right.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.039
Would you explore a bit on that?
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:48.319
Yeah, a mutual means I I mean, you know, I mean you actually see if you even if you have a cat, right?
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.000
You somehow assume that it will happen that the cat is also attached to you, right?
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.880
It's almost like the cat is at least you think.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.519
But but I would really say I mean that's a very interesting question.
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:05.200
I mean, I could put that back at you if the young person and that might easily happen, actually, I could imagine, right?
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:09.920
Simples the mentor to get drugs or something else, right?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.079
Right.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:11.119
Transport.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.839
And it's not really working as a mentorship, right?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.680
It and then it's not resonant, right?
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:22.880
Because resonance means I really want to hear this other voice and I care for it, and it's kind of mutual reaching out, right?
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:28.880
So I would really say uh a mentorship only works if the young person, in a certain sense, right?
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.160
Even I understand the difficulties with drugs, and that's certainly a problem.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.039
Addiction is a kind of problem in itself, right?
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:45.440
But nevertheless, I would really say if a mentorship works, then sooner or later the young person needs to also kind of cherish or or or value the mentor, right?
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.480
So and that that's kind of a relationship, it's not a pure friendship.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:49.599
I understand this, right?
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:55.039
But uh even if you have a friend, you want him to thrive, and if he's sick, you want him to become healthy again, right?
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:10.160
Because if if it's not the friendship word, finscape in Danish.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:32.079
And if we were to develop horizon that the mentors and the mentees could be inspired by when they enter a mentorship, would it work, do you think, to say, okay, so it's not really that much about you, it's not about Hartmouth, it's not about Lode, but it's about how can you, the two of you, actually explore what's in here between you.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.119
How can we make this meeting thrive?
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:35.680
Yeah?
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:40.240
So how can we make it thrive that the two of us now we meet.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:46.400
We are here, we are engaged in this, we've decided through the matching process and all the you know, clearing.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.039
Yeah, but I don't know.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:50.559
I mean you're the expert on this, right?
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:50.799
Right?
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.599
I don't know.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.160
But I I don't know.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.119
I th you know I think Is it too formalized?
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:58.400
No, it's not too formalized.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.200
I mean, that's actually it's something I mean I I mean now it's getting complex, right?
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:06.480
On the one hand On the one hand, I always say that resonance is the in-between.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.119
It's the it's the in-between what kind of grows in between us.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:10.960
So I would agree with you on this.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:19.839
But on the other hand, I mean also from the work from my own work, right, on profession uh no, on k on on voluntary work, right?
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.359
I would really say it's in the kind it's in the mutual interest, right?
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:28.319
I mean that old and young people meet each other and I would almost say profit from each other, right?
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:32.079
That's a kind of that's a natural human thing.
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:32.480
Right.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:39.599
And there is so much loneliness in society and also kind of speechlessness between the young and the old, right?
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:46.880
So I I would really say in such a situation it's an older experienced person, but maybe they are even maybe, I mean, they have problems too.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.640
Mentors are not perfect beings who help the the helpless, right?
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:57.759
I think it's two human beings encountering each other and both having their needs and their hopes and their aspirations, right?
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.079
So I would really say it's setting up a program.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:04.240
Let's see what happens when the two of you meet and interact.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.720
And then of course you could say it's the in-between, right?
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.200
But I would but I I was a little hesitant when you said it's not about you and it's not about me.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:16.400
I would say it's about you and about me and what happens when we meet in the intersection, right?
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.319
But I think it's a bit symmetrical.
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:20.799
I mean, people engage probably in this mentorship.
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.880
You know, it's you know, I find that very interesting.
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:30.000
I read the Danish uh because everyone says it's it's very close to resonance theory, the Danish uh philosopher and theologian Löstrup, right?
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:38.319
And I I was really fascinated by he reflects on whether love well of course love is it's egoistic or altruistic.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.720
And he says it doesn't make any sense, right?
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.480
I mean, because it's kind of you you could say it's the in-between, right?
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:51.759
But of course, I if I love, I I love you because of you, but also because it's good for me, and then the distinction doesn't make any sense, right?
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.799
And I would say in such a relationship it's a bit similar.
00:29:55.200 --> 00:30:02.559
But but I think maybe we maybe we're addressing different aspects of a mentorship uh and and different timings in it.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:20.160
Because uh what's by some mentors described as as a as a development that they see more often is that over time it can become, you know, more and more fruitful, more and more of that that sort of is uh that we are enthusiastic about here.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:22.000
But it can also become harder and harder.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:22.960
Yes, I can imagine.
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:23.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:23.839
Yeah.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:33.440
And and where you would maybe also, yeah, as a as a parent, uh if it's harder and harder uh drug abuse or something, you you might even decide to say to drop it, yeah.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:34.480
You have to drop it.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:56.640
And and is there, do you think, is there an extra obligation when the volunteer work is is actually aiming at a a young person and not on building cathedrals or veteran cars or what do you know there is this because in the discipline in social pedagogy, you're obliged to stay as long as possible.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.279
Yeah.
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:05.359
So what do you think about the the not so fun phase where it might, you know, go downwards and might fuss out?
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:10.799
I actually I was reflecting since I since I got involved with this project, I really thought, okay, that it's that is really tough.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.400
I could imagine myself running away, right, to say, okay, kind of hopeless.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.400
I want to help, but I see he's doing it again or she's doing it again and again, right?
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:19.759
Addiction is the thing, right?
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:21.200
And we know how it works.
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:22.480
It's it's like with parents.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.519
I mean, you said that, right?
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:25.519
Of course, parents have an obligation to their kids.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:28.319
But there might be the point where they simply give up, right?
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.920
And where it doesn't work.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.920
But I mean, even if it's a kind of help relationship, right?
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:43.839
I mean, actually, I had a colleague of mine working at my chair wrote a very interesting book about this food banks, you know, food banks where you give food to people who cannot afford or whatever.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.480
And his study, at first I almost hated it.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:54.720
And then I thought it's really interesting because he's kind of proved that the people working at the food banks are actually doing it for themselves.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:55.279
Right?
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.640
They think and they would say, Oh, we're helping the poor.
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.680
But he somehow proved that they don't really care for the poor.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:02.960
They don't even see the poor, right?
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:06.160
They say, Oh, I've given out hundreds of meals and I'm such a good person.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:07.599
I mean, it it's that's what I say.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:08.960
I hated it in the beginning, right?
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.759
But I then I gradually understood what he meant, right?
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:15.440
It I think it really works if you're really interested in the poor.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.759
And maybe sometimes you see it's not even good to hand it the food for free or it's something else they need, right?
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.720
This kind of opening up to the perspective is very important.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:33.920
But I'm but I want to say the motivation for this kind of social work, right, or voluntary work, is also it's also kind of self-regarding, right?
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.480
It's not only one person who needs help, right?
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:41.039
It's you could actually say it's two persons who needs help who need help because they are human beings, right?
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:50.720
But with this obligation, I think I would say, you know, when you're in resonance with something, then it I always try to say it involves a kind of care ethical perspective.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:52.960
You really care for this other side, right?
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:58.640
And this other side might be a human being, but actually it might be a cathedral which you want to serve to save, right?
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.079
Or it might be a glacier which you don't want to melt away, or a whale.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.279
So I think there is a kind of felt obligation.
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.839
It's important even if I don't like it anymore.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.240
Yeah, I don't know what we could.
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:27.440
But so but yeah, but maybe I can ask you back up on this point, right?
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:33.440
But but I I I I I I do find this question of obligation very interesting, right?
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:39.759
Because because the question is, do you do I have an obligation to stay there if it's no longer resonant for me, right?
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:43.039
I mean that's because I'm I I'm from coming from resonance theory, right?
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:44.640
And it's voluntary, right?
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:54.559
So if I you could I could actually say if I realize this is not a relationship that actually I would almost say that's good for me or good for us, right?
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.559
The in-between does not thrive, right?
00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:59.599
Then I would be inclined to run away, right?
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.799
But but would you say as also from the perspective of professional work that I should still stay there?
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:17.840
I'd say based on actually the very first question where the y the young person's perspective was sort of brought in, that if if you do that run away after a year because it's just too tough.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.440
That the yeah, the situation is too tough.
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:37.920
Then you might bail out on the hope from the young person of actually meeting someone that cares, not because of money, not because of my own uh job, CV, uh my own life situation, but actually cares about me.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:38.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:40.320
That would be my fear.
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.440
And then the young person might really be lost, right?
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:54.079
Another part of my research uh is focusing on um when young people withdraw from what society offers as help.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:54.320
Yeah.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:56.000
Because they don't find it meaningful.
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:56.239
Yeah.
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:10.800
And I've used a lot of your theories to actually try and explain what pushes this young person or it's a lot of young persons, but what pushes them out, what what uh what makes them say thank you, no thank you, this is not meaningful.
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:17.679
And it is when they are by the system, social pedagogues, meaning well, everything is good.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:29.840
But they they characterize the young persons as drug addicts or as a person that can't be helped, and he's out of a family of uh physical, mental uh issues, so and so and so.
00:35:30.159 --> 00:36:02.480
And if they experience a mentor jumping into the same category saying because of your drug abuse it's simply too hard, then in my research there's uh a body that would explain this um or young person's reactions and by withdrawing, saying, okay, that's yet another proof of uh adults seeing me as a category, and then they would seek not isolation but participation in communities characterized by the norms and the um elements that they know.
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:09.280
This could be homelessness, this could be drug abuse, this could could be criminality, gang issues, whatever.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:19.119
So it's not as if they isolate themselves, but they just seek towards communities carried by other norms, but they but communities that include them.
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:20.480
Yeah, I understand this.
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.639
I mean, uh you know my teacher was Axel Hornet, right, who wrote on the theory of recognition.
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.719
And I think at the end of the day, and it might actually be again true for both sides.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:29.920
I I really think so.
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:36.639
We need someone who kind of affirms us, we could almost say loves us or likes us for what we are.
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.800
I mean, for for the way I am, not for something I do or something I achieve, right?
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.559
But this kind of unconditional acceptance is so important, right?
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:46.960
But actually it might also be a problem for the mentor, right?
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.039
If there is no mentee who wants to work with me, right?
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:49.760
Definitely.
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:51.920
Then you have kind of the same problem, right?
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:52.079
Yeah.
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.239
So the there we see how complex this relationship is, which makes it really fascinating, right?
00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:02.559
All aspects of human existence come together in this kind of thing, which makes it difficult but also fascinating.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:05.440
I think that should be the final words.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:06.079
Thank you.
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:32.400
And Lore Habo, head of the Research Center for Pedagogy and Participation at the Via University College in Aarhus, Denmark.
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:38.159
And I hope this podcast was not only interesting, but also instructive.
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:46.000
The research project, The Intuitive Encounter, is funded by the VLux Foundation.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.480
The same goes for this podcast.
00:37:49.440 --> 00:38:00.320
The music was Touching Moment 2 with Kevin McLaur, Keeping Up, and Bram and Witt with the Artist Blue Dot Sessions.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:08.079
My name is Nada Kirkwell, and I am the editor, and thank you for lending your ears to this podcast.