Andy Polaine

[Intro music]
Skipper Chong Warson
Hi. I'm Skipper Chong Warson, and welcome to season two of the How This Works show. Thanks for tuning in. I run a business called How This Works co, specializing in service and product design, workshop facilitation, and leadership coaching. On this show, though, we focus on the journeys of people who excel at their respective areas of craft, exploring how they got started, where they are now, and the valuable lessons they've picked up along the way. Today I have Andy Polaine with me, he's a design leadership coach. We'll talk about many topics, but mainly it'll focus on his current work as a coach, and how that draws from his background as a filmmaker, designer, and more specifically, a service designer. He wrote one of the standard books on service design. Andy, thanks for taking the time to chat with me today. I appreciate it.
Andy Polaine
Thanks for having me on. Pleasure to be here. Nice to see you again too.
Skipper Chong Warson
Nice to see you as well. So let's start with pronouns. I'm he/him. How should I refer to you?
Andy Polaine
I'm also he/him.
Skipper Chong Warson
Great, I said a little bit in the intro about your general area of expertise, but I'd love if you could build on that.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, so maybe just quickly, my journey is the easiest way to get to where you know what I'm all about, I suppose.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
I've been involved in what you might loosely understand a sort of digital for just over 30 years, I was a very early person involved in interaction design and making interactive media. Back in the very early 90s, I originally studied film, video and photography and this new thing called interactive multimedia. And that was my shift into that. And you know, that was before things like UX or interaction design and all of those things had names. We were really struggling to find that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And throughout that time, then I've been doing quite a lot of that and teaching a lot of that too. I started teaching quite early. Then I moved into service design in the early 2000s, I had a conversation with my friend and co-author, Ben Reason when I just visited LiveWork studio in London, about a year after they'd opened. And he explained, Well, we're doing this thing called service design, and I've been very interested in organizational design, and that's how it kind of gelled for me.
Skipper Chong Warson
I see.
Andy Polaine
And then, as you and I know, we worked at Fjord, I worked at Fjord -- where I was part of a thing called Fjord Evolution, which was also an educational thing within Fjord and Accenture.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And for clients, but also a regional design director for APAC at Fjord.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And then, since then, I left, and I still train, I still teach, sometimes groups of people about service design and other things like storytelling and presentation. I co lead a Master's at service design in the Hochschule Luzern, Switzerland, but my main job is doing design leadership coaching.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay -- so, Andy, is there something about you, your background that might be surprising for folks listening, something you feel comfortable sharing.
Andy Polaine
Some people can probably hear it from my accent, and I don't know how surprising this is, but I was a privately educated, boarding school in the UK, so sort of probably Harry Potter stuff. But, you know, having lived all over the world, not quite all over the world, but I've lived in Germany for a very long time, lived in Australia twice, and living in another culture has really, really changed the way I then see and understand how people communicate with each other. And I think that's probably one of the things, even just learning another language, I'm fluent in German, for example, it's very interesting when you then consider your own language.
Skipper Chong Warson
Oh, I didn't know you were fluent in German.
Andy Polaine
See, there you go. Unexpected.
Skipper Chong Warson
There you go. Yeah. So Andy, let's dig into the meat of the show. And you talked a little bit about your journey broadly, and I expect we might jump into certain places here and there. But even more deeply than that, how did you get interested in the notion of design? You talked about design and storytelling and some of those other adjacent areas, not just to service design, but also -- how did you get interested in some of these other places?
Andy Polaine
So my dad was a graphic designer, and ended up having a branding and ad agency, and my brother trained as an industrial designer, okay, a proper product designer.
Skipper Chong Warson
It's almost a family business.
Andy Polaine
It is almost the family business. And actually, I kind of didn't really want to do design. Perhaps the other unexpected thing about me is that they always feel a bit of an impostor. Because I actually didn't study design, because I studied the other stuff that I talked to you about before -- design came to me later on. In fact, it took me a good year or two after graduating to call myself, back then we called ourselves interactive designers. But to add that word, I wanted to be a filmmaker. I wanted to be a film director, and I think -- so that's probably where all the storytelling stuff comes from. And I still, there's lots of ways of working, and my most recent podcast, actually, is with Julian Simpson, who is a guy who's a screenwriter and a director, and we had a really good conversation about that because I think there's lots to learn. And then I guess, you know, I sort of, in that sense, I slipped into design, because, you know, people needed people who could make interactive stuff.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
I was one of those people.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it. You studied filmmaking. And then, how did that transition from going from that mode of working, that area of work, into design? How did that, how did that bridge for you?
Andy Polaine
Yeah, so it was, it wasn't just film. So it was film, video, photography and multimedia as it was back then.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it.
Andy Polaine
And so for me, I was interested in all of those things I really enjoyed doing, like sound design and sound editing and things too.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
You know, and editing and camera work, all of that stuff, and back then, so this is when MacroMind Director came out. In fact, it was called VideoWorks before that. And suddenly, and I'd always been interested in computers, I had a home computer called a ZX Spectrum as a kid, and did some noodling around on that. And what happened for me was this, I was always like, Oh, I like all of this stuff. What can I do? And for me, multimedia back then was the moment where, Ah, I can do all of this stuff right myself. And it was very much back then, and for a while, a bit of a sort of one-man show, right? I could make something and bring it to life interactively, which was a kind of amazing thing to be able to do --
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
-- and do the sound and shoot stuff and all of those kinds of things. So that's how it kind of segued into that for me and how it came all together.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, well, a lot of the work that you're doing, or the artifacts of your work, I think, point back to what you're describing in your early transition. I mean, you make a podcast, you are posting some videos recently that highlight some of the work that you're doing in your leadership coaching. So it feels like you're still inhabiting that making space. I mean you and I, when we were at Fjord, we worked on the podcast that they made called Fika. So this is clearly an area of interest that is carried into your work and your current life as a designer and a coach.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, it is. I mean, I like, sometimes it's a chore, right? And you all know this, sometimes you've got loads of shoot all this stuff, or record a podcast, and it's, oh, my god, I've got six of them to edit. But it's actually kind of something that I quite enjoy. I resist the whole creator label, but it is nice to make stuff and put stuff out in the world, especially when I've spent my week kind of mostly talking with people, which I also like. But you know, in the coaching.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
There's not much actually making anymore.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And I guess I've always liked writing, you know, it's always been a part of my life, and for a little while, for quite a long time, actually, I was a journalist for a design magazine. As a little side hustle, I would write a column every month.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
And it was really good discipline to turn out 1000 words every month --
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
-- for quite a few years.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right. We've tracked back through some of the early parts of your work and then linked it to some ways in which people might see you today on Powers of 10, through your newsletter, but you're mainly focusing on leadership coaching right now. Design leadership coaching specifically. Will you talk a little bit more about how you got started in this area? And I asked this question in the context of there seem to be quite a lot of people who are inhabiting the coaching space.
Andy Polaine
There are now.
Skipper Chong Warson
There are now, for sure.
Andy Polaine
Irritatingly, when I first started, there were fewer.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
So I'm coming towards the end of my -- I'll be coming into my fifth year. So I started in 2000.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
And the origin story of it was that, well, first of all, I think it's important to note two things. One is, I've always done a lot of coaching and mentoring most of my life, it's been a very strong part of my teaching, you know, I've had a lot of time with students of all levels, from, you know, undergraduates, master students, and postgraduate. And one of the things I noticed a lot and started, learning about teaching and learned about people back then, was how much people block themselves but think it's the thing. So I've really had, you know, when I when it boiled down to it, had very few situations, either as a lecturer or at Fjord as a design director, when people were really struggling and saying, I don't know how to make this thing, I don't know how to design this.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
What they were always struggling with was one of two things, one of which was themselves, and anxiety and all those things going on there. I had plenty of students who are in tears in my my office... and quite a few colleagues too, or people stuff, or both -- the people it was, you know, I kind of really mostly realized this, I think when I was at Fjord, actually, it was most obvious there. But teams were saying, Aw, the team has gone dysfunctional, and they'd fallen out, and they were kind of arguing with each other. Well, they had a difficult stakeholder of some kind, either the client or someone from Accenture.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
And it was really all of that that they were asking me to kind of step into and not, not the, Hey Andy, can you help us design that thing?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
So in that sense, the design director is, is actually a real misnomer. And so when I left, I thought I was going to do training, train client teams, which I still occasionally do in all that stuff I mentioned before, and I thought I'd do some kind of mentoring or coaching, but I didn't realize it was going to be such a big part.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
And when I was on calls with people lining up the work, these were design leaders. These are people running design departments a whole region sometimes, and I was trying to get, you know, land the training gigs, I was having these kind of very long other conversations, sort of therapeutic conversations, that were along the lines of, yeah, you know, I'm really struggling to get stakeholder buy in, and not quite sure how I should build my team out and who should hire next, and this, that and the other. And I was, I was advising them on that because, you know, I wanted to get the training gig.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And it was my wife, who's a psychotherapist, who said, Why are you giving that away for free? And there's that moment, I was like, oh, that's the work, actually. And I like this. I'm quite good at it, and that's where that came from. And I guess the last thing to say, which is also important, is that you know, my wife's a psychoanalyst. She's a Jungian from CG Jung and it's this -- it's what I've done for many years as a self-exploration thing more than anything. And I probably draw as much from that experience of 25-6 years as I do from my design experience. So that's how the coaching arose and now I've sort of got this -- it's a bit of a niche, but there's what I call the design leadership dip, you know, where there's this moment where people move into a leadership role, or they've been there for a while and, you know, they're either I'm in this role and I don't know what I'm doing, or this is where I've always wanted to be, and now, you know, I'm not really sure that I want to do this. And is this what it's all about? And I don't know. And people go through a sort of mid-career/midlife crisis about at the same time, and my job is to help them through that and to be someone who's also been through that themselves, and not just a kind of general life or career coach.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it. You link together not only the parts of your work that you've done as a teacher, and then also from the work that you did at Fjord. And if I remember correctly, your title there was Director of Client Evolution?
Andy Polaine
It was by the end.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay, by the end, okay, got it.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
So that was really about the there were client interactions, there were leadership interactions within Fjord. But that, what I understood, is that it was really about the sort of the workshopping practice and the service design elements that Fjord inhabited. So how those things played out for the larger business, almost like train the trainer is the way that I thought of it.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay, got it.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay. So the work that you did as a teacher and that you still do as a teacher, but then the work that you did at Fjord, and then the work that you now do as a leadership coach, it sounds like they all draw from the same well.
Andy Polaine
They do. And that well is, is reading the room and people. I think one of the things that was a real unlock for me, and again, actually, this is something I realized at Fjord, because when you're in a leadership role, and particularly in a place like, you know, Accenture, you know, where there's a lot of what we might pejoratively say, call suits, there's a lot of people coming in with business backgrounds there.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
You know, there's this temptation to think, when you move into a design leadership -- now, I have to become a suit, kind of dress differently or behave differently, and you have to behave a little bit different.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
But you don't have to become a completely different person. And in fact, if you jettison your whole experience, your life experience as a designer, then kind of, what's the point of you being that?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right, right.
Andy Polaine
Instead of just some other MBA?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And one of the unlocks for me was realizing, because I do like facilitation, I've done a lot of it, which is so akin to teaching, was that it's kind of like slow motion facilitation, that what you're doing a lot of is reading the room, and you're seeing, you know, in actual facilitation, in a real room, you're looking to see what the energy is like, you're looking to see where someone's checked out and isn't really kind of, you know, engaged anymore, or whether people are confused about the purpose of what they're supposed to be doing. You look at things you can do to raise the energy or things to calm down. You do stuff together and it's very vibrant, and you do some stuff where you do stuff when everyone's working on their own and quiet, and all of those things right down to things like the food on the day, or the quality of the Post It notes, which sound trivial --
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
-- but if people are really hungry, or someone has come in and they're like, Well, I'm gluten intolerant and I'm vegan, and there's only sort of other stuff there.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
For them, they feel not seen. They get they get hungry, they get hangry.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
You know, poor Post-It notes fall off when the air con comes on.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
You know. And everyone, every designer knows and laughs at that but it's a big deal.
Skipper Chong Warson
It is.
Andy Polaine
Then you work all morning --
Skipper Chong Warson
It's a distraction.
Andy Polaine
-- and then you come in, in the after lunch, and it's all on the ground.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
So it's all of those things matter, right? Those details matter.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And we do quite a lot about flattening out hierarchy and things like that in those workshops.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
So if you kind of think about that, over the course of, you know, days, weeks, months and years, about, you know, that could be a team on a project, it could be a whole design department or team irresponsible over the course of a year. You can kind of see there's a similar pattern there. And you're really being mindful of, like, where are people at.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And I think then the teaching thing, it's mostly about working out how to unlock people's blockages and how to unlock either something that's complex they don't really understand, they're not really getting it, and how to unlock it so it makes sense for them, or how to take away some of the fear and anxiety. Because learning is fear, learning is uncomfortable.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Because you're suddenly doing new things.
Skipper Chong Warson
It's a change.
Andy Polaine
Certainly when dealing with clients, yeah. So dealing with clients, you we go in and, you know, in where the worst case we go in as kind of design consultants or service design consultants.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And we say, you know, the way you're working at the moment, Eh, you're such idiots. You should be working this way, right?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
And we don't really kind of realize the effect that that has on people and why people might resist that. What kind of fear and anxiety kicks up?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And so for me, one of the things that I try now to look at is, you know, when I look at those people who we might describe as suits --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
You know, is actually trying to understand, why don't they get this? Why isn't this resonating with them and someone who appears to be being a difficult stakeholder and blocking or aggressive, or any of those things, most people aren't like that just for the sake of it. They're usually like that out of fear and anxiety.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And when you kind of think, well, what are they afraid and anxious about? It's a much more empathetic approach, and it really provides a pathway to unlocking that and approaching them as well, and thinking, you know, how can I do it? So that's, I guess, where that all comes from. And then if you think of what's going on in coaching one to one it's like that, but on a one to one level.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right, right. I want to dig into a couple of areas that you just talked about. I know you've written about this before, and you've talked about this before, but this notion of the leadership dip might happen at the moment you walk into leadership, or it might happen after some period of time. And I know that you've also talked about this notion of imposter phenomenon, or imposter syndrome, as some people call it. Can you say a little bit more about that? The reason why I think that this is so important and for people to hear is that I don't personally believe that it matters your academic credentials, I don't think that it matters your professional credentials, for any number of reasons, someone might feel unqualified to do a thing that's either in front of them or a series of things in front of them. So would you talk a little bit more about what's underneath there and why that might happen?
Andy Polaine
Yeah, this needs a bit of unpacking.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yes, please.
Andy Polaine
So the original research on imposter -- what now is now colloquially known as imposter syndrome -- was called imposter phenomenon, and the woman who did it interviewed a lot of kind of high-powered female executives who, I think were probably mostly white, mostly North American, I think, if not all. And so there's one thing there, which is to recognize-- it's a particular sample. I think it's another thing that she called it phenomenon that's more like bluffing or being embarrassed than it is a syndrome. Sounds like I've got some kind of condition that I'll never, you know, be afflicted with for the rest of my life, which is to say, you know, I'm a good example, right? I'm white, middle-class, middle-aged, male, and privately educated. I had so many privileges afforded me.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
It's incredibly easy for me. Well, it's not about easy. It's my -- it doesn't cost me any kind of social kudos or not much of it to call my boss or the CEO. I'm my own boss now, but to call my, you know, someone senior, to call them out on something.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure
Andy Polaine
It's very, I recognize it's very, very different if you're, say, a woman of color.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Or someone who's nonbinary and maybe genderqueer, and so there's a whole load of kind of social status, and it's much less safe for someone to be doing that. I understand that it costs them much more to do so, which is to say, you know, one of the things about imposter syndrome, I think, is that or phenomenon, is there's the internal thing, which I guess we'll get to in a second. But if people are constantly telling you you're not, you're not good enough, or you're not enough, or this isn't for you, or if you're not seeing the representation that people who look like you are in these positions in the world, then it's externally imposed and, you know, and then you internalize it. And so the process in both cases is to kind of take the power out of that and sort of diffuse it. But it's obviously, I want to recognize this a lot harder, if that's your external messaging the whole time.
Skipper Chong Warson
For sure.
Andy Polaine
But I think we all have that sense quite often, that, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I've been asked to do something, and I really don't know how to do this. Or I've not done it before is usually the thing.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And, you know, one of the things with being in a leadership role is that you've spent, we've pretty much spent our entire lives, from childhood through to school. And you know, if we've studied and then going to work, we're pretty much spending our whole time with someone else telling us what to do. And there's this weird kind of moment that happens where no one's telling you what to do anymore. You might be given some outcomes to achieve by your boss or whatever.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
But they're not saying this is how you should do it, because actually, you're probably at the top of the tree -- design-wise.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
And so there's this weirdly uncomfortable thing where you're like, Well, I'm just making it up. This is just my --
Skipper Chong Warson
Right, right.
Andy Polaine
You know, who am I to say?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
And you are --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Because that's what leadership means, right? This means, if you're leading from the front, it really does mean we're going to go left here, see, you know, I think that's a good way to go, you know?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
Through this bit of jungle. The difference is, though, I think where people you know, one of the ways to start to, um, defuse that is to remember that you've got years of experience behind you and so it's not just just my opinion in that really sort of dilettante way.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Or that kind of social media way of like, I've just got an opinion, therefore it's right.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
You're basing it on years of experience and pattern recognition.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And, you know, if you think about improvising, think about how jazz musicians improvise. Yes, they're making it up at the moment, but they practice their scales and they know their chord progressions and all the jazz standards.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And so it's not coming from nowhere.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
It's not like someone's just handed them a saxophone for the first time in their life, and then they play.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
They practice.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
And I think that's important to remember when you're you're in one of those positions --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
-- to know that it's okay, that it's okay to make it, I was also okay to be wrong, yeah, just to recognize it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah. I want to share a story, and then I want to make a point, and I have a question. So my story has to do with a friend of mine. We worked together at a previous -- and they will remain nameless for the purposes of our conversation -- and they work for a very large company. They came to that company through some sort of merger and acquisition, and they have been catapulted into a leadership role. They went from managing a team of 10 to, I think, they now manage a team of 250 -- so quite a lot. A big change.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
All at once, my friend reached out to their manager and some folks in leadership and said, This is a big sea change for me. This is a very big shift. I need support. I don't know if that's coaching or that's training, I don't know what that looks like, but I need support from the organization. And their tongue-in-cheek response was, Well, none of us ever had training, you'll do just fine. And I imagine that conversations like this are happening more often than you think. So that's my anecdote.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, it does happen quite a lot, and yet at the same time, it's really common for CEOs, for example, to negotiate as part of their package.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
A coach.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
And I think one of the things — I mean, it's shortsighted of the organization, really — if someone who's really senior is responsible for 250 people is saying, "I could do with some support here."
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
The investment, you know, I'm going to pitch myself here, but the investment in someone like me.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
Helping them has a multiplier.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Because those 250 people work much better.
Skipper Chong Warson
That's right.
Andy Polaine
So you do. It seems odd to me that you wouldn't invest in that. What I think is a really common thing, I didn't really talk about the dip, and this is part of it, is loneliness --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
-- at the top. So a large part of my job, you know, I don't really tell people. I'm gonna give people my opinion, and I'm not very coachy in that way, classically, coaching -- I'm just sort of asking open questions because people come to me because I've been through that role.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
I mean, I phrase it as my opinion, but a large part of my role is just being someone that people can talk to, who's at that level.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Because a lot of the time when you're in a leadership position as a designer, you're the only one at that level. All your peers are in other parts of the business and often have business backgrounds or something else.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And it's really lonely because you're also no longer part of the design gang.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, yeah.
Andy Polaine
You can have good relationships with them, but you sort of can't be their friend in the same way, because you can always fire them. And even if you think, I'm not going to be like that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
They know that. And there's always -- a friend of mine said it in a really nice way. They said, My job is to buy the first round of drinks and then leave, which is obviously a little bit lonely. So part of what I'm there is to create a safe space for people to go, This is my idea. What do you think about this? I don't really know.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And then that's safe. And then part of my job, it's having created that safe space, is to be a little bit annoying.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And ask them annoying questions. They go, Well, who cares about this? Why should we care? Why should anyone care about that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And it's for them. Then in the coaching session to go, Ah, yeah, actually, I don't really know, rather than when they're on the call with their boss.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And to work through that stuff.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Because it's lonely, and that's definitely part of that dip.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, I hear you on that. Plus one on that. I also wanted to bring up something that I've seen recently in the design space, where there seem to be two things going on. One is there seems to be quite a lot of whether you call them a player/coach role or -- and I'm using a sports metaphor, not coaching -- but player/coach and coach/player, so where someone who's in a managerial position or a director position will still do some of that, individual contributor, hands-on, keyboard, sort of design work. And I wonder how what I think is a trend that's happening plays into the larger conversation about how design leadership is manifesting inside of organizations.
Andy Polaine
It is common, as is the fractional leadership role, actually, which I've heard a few times.
Skipper Chong Warson
I've heard a lot about that as well.
Andy Polaine
It would be massively depends on the type of organization, right?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
So there's, there's obviously people in public services, there are people in startups, people in scale-ups, large enterprises and all that. So it does slightly depend. I think it's quite common if you're designer number one.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
And then you're growing the team, it's quite common to then sort of end up being in a leadership role, because you've hired people underneath you.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
But you're still designing.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And sometimes it's also about how the organization perceives you, right? You're still a designer who makes stuff for a living.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure, sure.
Andy Polaine
And, you know, for other people, it's like, no, I really like this, you know, and I really want to keep my hand in and keep my skills going.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
That's one of the reasons why there's that. Coach/player, player/coach, I guess we're talking about the kind of weighting of what they're doing.
Skipper Chong Warson
That's right.
Andy Polaine
There's a bit of a burnout danger, though, where as you start taking on more responsibilities about managing and leading people and still are responsible for some of the actual output, the work that you you just spread yourself too thin.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And you're trying to do it all, and at some point, there's a kind of letting go of things that has to happen.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And again, that's part of the dip. I think you start -- the uncomfortable thing about that is you've probably spent most of your life weaving an identity as a designer, as a creative person of some kind.
Skipper Chong Warson
As a maker. Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Someone who makes things for a living or solves problems, wherever you see yourself. And then you start to give some of that up.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Just as you're still learning about the leadership skills and management skills, and that's the dip, like, where you're you're kind of a bit rubbish at both, certainly, what happened to me, more than once. But I think it's more about an identity thing if I don't design anymore, who am I?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
What am I about?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Because I think I don't know. Maybe accountants and HR people feel the same and really identify with their their craft. But I think designers bind their self identity into their work quite strongly as much as any other artist does.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And so, you know, the unweaving of that is quite a, quite an existential moment.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, well, there's a little bit of a design uniform, if you will, like you can almost always tell, and as you pointed out, in a company like Fjord or Accenture, they're called Accenture Song now, but you can tell there's a visual difference between people who are "suits" and folks who are more creative. You've got the funky tennis shoes, you've got a black T-shirt, you've got fun glasses, like lots of different things, maybe even have an armful of tattoos, or, you know, something like that. But it seems as though there's a bit of a costume for what a designer looks like. And so I do think, in that same way, that if you build your entire identity, work identity, out of I do this thing, and this is how I do it, what I look like, then all of a sudden, if you have to change your uniform or shift a tiny bit, what does that mean for you as a person?
Andy Polaine
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a deeper thing there. I mean, it's absolutely true, and I've caught myself. So, you know, I was going to a meeting at Accenture -- they have things called client account leads in other companies, they're like the senior partners, the people who are basically in charge of a large account.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
With a client.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And I caught myself going to an important meeting with one of those people and thinking, Oh, I put on some, you know, slightly smarter clothes, as by I mean, more formal clothes, not like I was scruffy. And then I kind of thought, No, I'm going to wear my trainers. In fact, that guy said to me in the lift on the way up to the client, he looked down at my trainers and went, well, couldn't you put on a smart pair of clothes? And I said to him, If I do that --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
-- and I go in, they're going to think I'm a consultant. They're going to think, I'm like, you --
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
-- and what you're doing here in our pitch is, hey, you know, we're actually bringing real design, not kind of pseudo management consultant design --
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
-- into this environment, right? And it's actually important. So, you know, it's that sort of meta-communication thing of the medium is the message, how you then turn up, is important.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
I think some designers really lean into that heavily in a corporate environment because they absolutely want to kind of make that identity known, to preserve that identity as a sort of armor --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
-- as much as it is a costume.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
But I would argue so is a suit and tie.
Skipper Chong Warson
For sure, for sure, they both are.
Andy Polaine
You know, I have seen people treat people really badly, actually, as other human beings in ways they wouldn't do --
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
-- in a business context, or act in a certain way. And why would you be like that? You would never treat even an acquaintance that you didn't like very much. You'd never treat me like that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
But somehow the suit and tie is this armor that kind of allows you to be, you know, somehow less empathetic. And I am of the firm belief that the idea that it's not personal, it's just business is a massive lie, right? It's always personal.
Skipper Chong Warson
It's always personal.
Andy Polaine:
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
For sure, yeah. I like that extension that you made about calling it armor, because whether it's a black T-shirt and, like you said, Cool trainers, or it's a suit and tie, even if it's the version with the blazer and the dress shirt and the jeans, right? That's still an armor, right? It's a costume. It's a get-up. I like what you said, I mean, a lot of times when folks talk about design, there's this notion of user-centered, human-centric, thinking about the person at the heart of this design. And I think in the same way that design problems, whether they are structural, you know organizational, or on a screen, that they all ladder back to the person. So whether it's they have a certain goal in mind or they have something they want to accomplish, they're having a problem, you're a problem solver, you make things, whatever the myriad of identities and goals are. It sounds like this all flows back into what is the people problem here? What is the person problem?
Andy Polaine
Yeah, I think some of the stuff I was talking about is when people feel terribly uncomfortable having people and emotional conversations at work. And I think we're not taught how to -- I mean, you know, people have hard enough problems having those conversations with their partners and in their family or their close friends, but it's very, very common for people to have a real problem relationship at work, yeah. And the way they deal with it is a very sort of process-based thing, or they hide behind a process. I mean, you know, firing someone is the classic one the whole kind of HR process isn't human at all.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
In fact, makes it worse, yeah. And then, you know, there's a whole load of kind of legal arse covering that goes there as well. But actually, you know, to have the genuine human conversation, it kind of takes quite a lot more than saying, Well, this is just the process. It's business, not personal. And then you can kind of somehow shut it away.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And you know, there's a thing that comes up in coaching quite often where someone's got a really difficult relationship with someone, or it's become kind of pretty toxic, or even just kind of uncomfortable,
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And there's some conflict there, and they just both avoid it. And then in the coaching sessions that, oh, you know, Andy, again, I had this conversation with him, and, you know, he did that thing again, you know? And what I ask these days is, What is it you really want to say to that person? And then they give me the version with lots of swear words, and then we work out, and then my answer is, really, well, why don't you just say that?
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
But without, you know, without the swear words and find a time when you're not in a heightened emotional state to talk about it to that person or arrange something, you know, arrange a meeting or a call with that person where that's the agenda. There's no other stuff. You're not gonna cram it in at the end of another meeting about something else, where you're literally having a meeting. So I'd like to talk about our relationship. It's kind of like couples therapy, right? And be more intentional about it. And you know, it's not always going to work, but a lot of the time, you know, they say what they really wanted to say, in a measured way. And the next session really changed everything, and they really understood, and they kind of really got where I was coming from, and I understood them a bit better and all that stuff. But because it's business, not personal, we push that stuff away, and then we live in these unpleasant relationships all the time at work.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, one of the things that I wanted to chat about with something you said earlier about reading the room, and right now, you and I are having a -- we're recording this podcast on a video call. How do a lot of your interactions these days happen? Are your coaching calls on video? And if whatever proportion that is, how does that go into reading the room? Because there is something when you're standing in a room with other people, you can feel tension. You can see that there's a little bit of a mishmash happening at table three over there. Oh, and maybe I shouldn't have put so and so with so and so, they have a disagreement. So you can reorganize. I wonder how reading the room happens in a digital way these days for you.
Andy Polaine
Yeah. So most of my, almost all of my coaching, is via Zoom or, you know, video chat. And I have a teleprompter. I bought one of those Elgato teleprompters.
Skipper Chong Warson
Interesting.
Andy Polaine
So I'm looking at you, you know, the cameras behind the 45-degree mirror that I'm looking at.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it.
Andy Polaine
And since I've had it, it's really, really helped, because I'd got into the habit of talking into the camera.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it.
Andy Polaine
Which was just above my screen, in order to make sure I'm looking people in the eyes. But then whilst I'm looking into the the camera, I'm not looking at them.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Or if I'm looking at them, they see my eyes kind of looking down a little bit.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
And, you know, that's really helped. It was a tiny thing, but it really makes a massive difference to at least my ability to read, and hopefully this sense of empathy from the other side. But it's also quite unnatural.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
We don't usually talk to people staring at them --
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
-- for ages and ages.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right, right.
Andy Polaine
And, in fact, some of what we're doing when we use some artifacts or get people to make things something, and this is really a tip I give to people trying to give feedback and critique about stuff, is to try and turn it into this thing where it is a side by side, looking at a third thing experience, rather than face to face, particularly when you're sort of critiquing work. And so that can help. I'm looking at, I'm listening a lot, probably more than looking at, you know, where people are. Well, I actually look for where the sort of flickers of emotion are when someone touches on something. I can see, Oh, that's their eyes have gone a bit glassy, or that's going to choke them up a bit or, you know, and people often do a thing, they'll talk about something, and you can see it makes them a little bit uncomfortable, and then they'll distract and they'll say, Yeah, so anyway, and if it's appropriate, I don't know, all the time, is bring people back to that. What was going on there when you were talking about that?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Because, you know, I said, if it's important to then get to what's emotionally behind it. You know, I'm not a therapist, though, so I've kind of be, I try and keep a space where you've had sort of training down one end, where I'm saying you should do this, you should do that, and therapy for designers down the other end, I'm coaching somewhere in the middle, and it moves around on that spectrum.
Skipper Chong Warson
I see.
Andy Polaine
And then I think in terms of when you could read a bit of body language, but I know what you mean. You can't tell the kind of impatience --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
-- so easily.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
You certainly can't tell it on -- well, maybe you can, Slack is a funny medium. There's a real generational difference between the way people interact as well on those kind of other media. And then I think when you're doing a workshop, you're doing something, you know, everyone's on a Miro board or something.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
Well, Daniel Stillman wrote a great book called "Good Talk," which actually got me to the idea of the slow-motion facilitation thing. Actually, he said, Well, you know, you can kind of read the board, right? You look at people's cursors, and you can see where there's no activity at all, or there's lots of people kind of buzzing around and doing stuff. You actually kind of get a sense of how the room and each group is doing from that, it's probably about reading some of the subtler signals, I think in those media.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it. I wonder. And for people who aren't paying attention to some of the things that you're putting out into the world, you do a -- what is it? A weekly kind of video --
Andy Polaine
Mostly.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay, mostly weekly. Semi-weekly, talk about some of the things that you're hearing from your coaching clients. But I wonder if there's something that pops for you right now that feels like this is something I keep hearing over and over.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, so I do these coaching reflections, they're called --
Skipper Chong Warson
Thank you.
Andy Polaine
Of course, they are, you know, quite often a thing that comes up. I mean, it's obviously because my brain is biased in a certain direction. I'm making a pattern. But I, you know, don't think it's necessarily in the zeitgeist. But what happens quite often, have a week and I have the same conversation three times in coaching, and I'm like, Oh, it's interesting. What's going on there?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And so I'll put those up. And part of it is just to put some stuff out there in the world. And obviously, a little bit of it is like, Look at me. Come and, you know, hire me.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
But a lot of it's also, I keep thinking, Well, this would be useful for other people, and I think that would be a good thing. And if there's one thing I want people to get out of any of that content is, Ah, it's not just me, other people have this. That's the main reason for putting that stuff out there.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
I would say most recently I have had that thing I just talked about, actually, which is, no, the first, the very first one all the time, is time and boundaries, right? So people really struggling to set time and boundaries and say no, but it feeds into the sort of conflict, adversion, and so the people-pleasing thing that often comes up.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
I think designers are particularly bad at that. Actually sort of want to be people pleasers. But setting time and boundaries, setting saying to someone who says to you on a Friday, this needs to be done by Monday.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
It's not going to get done, you know? And because if you don't, if you don't set that boundary, they never get the feedback loop that their ambitions are greater than their ability to plan or their desire to resource the thing. So if it turns up on Monday, and you've done it well, that worked, right? So why wouldn't they do it again?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
I think I've learned a lot more about this from training my dog, actually, than anything else. You're reinforcing behaviors you don't want.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure. It's funny that you say that. I don't know if this will make it into the show, but I'm reading Malcolm Gladwell's collection of New Yorker essays right now called "What the Dog Saw." And the title story is about Cesar Millan. And it's funny that you said that, because I have been thinking in reading that essay, how does this apply to my work as a designer, and I haven't quite jumped the chasm yet, but I think there's something there. There are three components that he talks about, love, something, and discipline that are important for training a dog, like having a healthy relationship with a dog. And I think only one of the three, usually owners/pet keepers, don't give the animal discipline. They only give them love and affection, or love and exercise. I think that's what it is, love, exercise, and discipline, but yeah, we forget that discipline part. And I think -- not that humans are dogs. I don't think that's what we're saying.
Andy Polaine
(Laughs)
Skipper Chong Warson
But I do think there is a boundary setting that is important when dealing with other people. This is what I can do. This is the time frame, as you said, you know, time and boundaries. Here's the time frame that I think that I can do the thing that you're asking for, and this is the shape of what it looks like.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, humans aren't dogs, but we are also behavioral animals, right?
Skipper Chong Warson
And we're pack animals too, like dogs.
Andy Polaine
Animals, yeah. And so the thing about, you know, I mean cognitive behavioral therapy, it's all about that. I mean, it's all about kind of reinforcing positive cycles and not negative cycles. I think confuse the word discipline with punishment quite often.
Skipper Chong Warson
That's a good distinction.
Andy Polaine
I think those things are the same thing, and punishment is obviously, you know, something negative. And punishment. In fact, there's this whole thing in the kind of behavior, or there's like, a four-by-four matrix of that. And punishment is negative reinforcement. I think that's the one which you don't do with animals -- you try very, very, you know, only in a kind of emergency situation would you do something like that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
But in general, what you're trying to do is, in dog training, you reward good behavior, that's right, and you don't reward any other behavior. It's not like you don't punish it. It's not like you punish it, right? You just don't get a treat if they don't do the thing.
Skipper Chong Warson
That's right.
Andy Polaine
So they're very quickly learn, or if I want the treat, then I do that thing, and then eventually you don't need the treat.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, the reinforcement.
Andy Polaine
And I kid you not. That's what I mean by when someone comes to you and says, could you do this thing in this ridiculously short amount of time? And you say, yes, then you're reinforcing that negative behavior. I think it's okay.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And you also, you know, there's a whole lot of kind of state of stuff that kind of plays into that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
There's a thing that happens when someone comes to you, usually, they've got a thing on their plate they want to get off of their plate, or they can't do, or they need someone else to do, and at that point, it's still their problem.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
If you say to them, sorry, I don't have time to do this, it's not going to get done. I wish you you know next time. It'd be great if you came to me earlier, or I can do it by this later time or so and so can do it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
At that point, when you turn them down and say, No, you let them down, and it's still their problem,
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And they still have time to do something about it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
And then what happens is, otherwise, as soon as you say, Yeah, okay, no, I can't really, I don't have time, yeah, okay, well, I'll take it on. Now it's your problem.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
They've got it off of their plate and onto yours.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And you're faced with this thing if you either don't deliver and say, I'm really sorry I didn't get it done.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And now they don't have any time to do anything about it, so now you look flaky.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
It's you, not the other person who would have looked flaky if they hadn't managed to get someone to do it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
Because they hadn't planned properly.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
So now it's your fault.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
And it's your problem. And so the response quite often is, while I have to work on, you know, Sunday night to do it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
I think over and over again, and a lot of leaders, senior leaders in business, like I said, they have ambitions beyond their ability or willingness to resource them, and until you say no, until they can't get what they want, well, they're just going to carry on doing it. Because why wouldn't they?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Just like a dog
Skipper Chong Warson
That skills, confidence mismatch.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, yeah.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
So Andy, how do you envision your work as a leadership coach evolving in the future? Do you have hopes? Do you have concerns about some of the things that are happening in the working world?
Andy Polaine
I have concerns about what's going on in the working world. You know, I feel that obviously, you know, it was quite hard for me, quite certainly, at the beginning of the year and all the layoffs were happening. Layoffs were happening.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
A lot of chaos going on, and a lot of kind of self-flagellation as well amongst designers. Oh, we haven't proven our value and all of that.
Skipper Chong Warson
The seat at the table.
Andy Polaine
I actually think the design project has been quite a lot of success, really. I see designers everywhere now, in all sorts of organizations, and they just weren't there 15 years ago.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
You know, that was a bit of a tough time. Now, I feel like budgets are coming back. I have a mix of people paying me privately, and their work paying me, and actually, quite a few more people's work has been paying for me recently, which is, I think, an encouraging sign. I really feel like we're coming out the bottom of a dip, and we'll emerge different. By we, I mean design as a discipline.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
But I feel like we're coming out of that. Some of the things I would like to do is I started writing. I've got, I've got some of and the outline of a book about all of this, because, like I said, Really, I wanted to put something out there for people to read. And it's kind of the thing you were never told in design school. And the thing, if you're lucky, you learn from having other design leaders who are really good role models. If you're unlucky, and you know, all the people who work for you now are unlucky, then you had a couple of toxic people whose behavior you then, you know, repeat.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Then you don't have any other things to kind of look at.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And so it would be, it's less around, you know, this is how you do design, you know. So how do you set up teams and it's less tactical?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure
Andy Polaine
People like Peter Merholz are really good for those kinds of things. It's more about, hey, you're going to go on this inner journey, and it's going to feel like this, and feel sometimes really uncomfortable and scary and all of those things. And I have the, I know everyone says it's a privilege, but I really feel it's a great privilege of speaking to now it's about 120 people about their, you know, inner churn and everything that's going on as they're in those roles. And I would like to share that experience so other people can look at that and, you know, get some tips and tricks and all those kinds of things, but also feel like, Oh, yeah, this is actually normal and expected. Not, you know, I'm the odd one out here, and everyone else knows what they're doing.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, so I wonder, Andy, is there anything, and we've talked about quite a number of topics, but is there any topic that we haven't talked about that you want to get into, that you think we should spend some time on?
Andy Polaine
I really don't want to talk about this -- AI is kind of looming its head. There's a lot of kind of stuff around, you know, it's going to take our jobs and all of that. I do think product design in particular has got itself kind of pushed onto the assembly line in a bad way. And you know, if you think there's a sort of the bottom third of product management, which I think is kind of really poor, as other people do it really well and have really good relationships with designers and engineers. But there's a kind of a subset where that came in, I think, unskilled, and when the kind of it was the hottest ticket of the day, treat design as a way to get their ideas, mock-ups of their ideas to engineering, and if that's how you think about that, and you think this person is really just my hands, and I, you know, I don't know, Figma.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And I just need them to do that, then, of course, basically what you've already been doing is sort of prompt engineering to your designer GPT, and therefore, I can kind of see why that would happen. I think none of that stuff is going to end terribly well for, you know, a bunch of reasons. I think it's just, I don't think the business model is really there for the cost of it, and certainly the energy cost of it.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
So I personally am a skeptic, and think it will kind of collapse. It will still be around in some way. But I think the bubble that will burst, I still think that one of the things designers are very good at is discernment and taste. Someone else said this. That doesn't come from me, but I think that's one of those things that AI is really poor at.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And so I'm hopeful that we'll still be around in some form.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, so we can beat the six-fingered man, as it were.
Andy Polaine
Well, also -- there's already been pre-AI, this push toward a mediocre middle?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Every app looks the same.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Every website looks the same. And one of the reasons is, I think that everyone's trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Like, velocity is a huge thing.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And I think it's really overrated.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And it's just become -- ask people in that they say, Well, we have to get this stuff done by X. You know, our bosses want us to go faster. And ask them, why?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And they don't know.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And if they ask their boss, you know, in the end, if you keep asking laddering it up, it's usually because someone very wealthy wants to become more wealthy quicker.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And that's not a good reason to work weekends and evenings.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
But I also think what happens is, when people are under pressure, they'll lean into the things that they know how to do well already, that there are existing patterns of out there, or that the tools do very well.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And so that's why you end up with everything starting to look the same.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah. Yes and... to that, I think there's also, and I've seen this before in a variety of client engagements, as well as companies that I've worked for. I feel like design folks are less good at attaching the work that they do to business targets and outcomes. You're absolutely right, this notion of we need this faster, why? And the idea of making money, or whatever the revenue is. But I think even deeper than that, that design becomes even more valuable -- the capital D design and the little D design -- becomes far more valuable. When you can say, these are the things that we're doing for the business based on the work at hand.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, and I think the reason for that is we spend the first half of our career, or large portion of our career, talking design to designers.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And so there's a whole bunch of self-evident truths that make sense to us.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And it's not they don't make sense. You know, stakeholders in other areas just don't care, and it's not their job to care, not the CEO. The big shocking truth, I think, for a lot of design leaders, is to realize the CEO doesn't really care about design, even if they've installed you as the head of design.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
They care about something else. And so there's a magic question I always ask, which is, So what? Why does this matter?
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And it's the way to ladder that up. So if you say, Well, we want more service designers in our team? Well, you know, so what? Who cares? Your CEO doesn't care.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
Any more than if the accountants say we need more accountants, you know, why? So you say, Well, you know because then we can get a better sense of, we're siloed at the moment, and we really need some people to kind of map out the interconnected stuff, or map out the end-to-end experience and see where we're failing and where there's some handoffs between things.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
So what? Who cares? Why does that matter? And it will get up to something like, Well, we will make fewer mistakes. We will send fewer people to the call center or support. We will not have to do things twice and all of that stuff. Eventually, it always ladders up to we can make more money, we can save money, or we can mitigate risk.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And, you know, and sort of preventing risk is really saving money in disguise.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure
Andy Polaine
And so, but in that ladder, depending on what stakeholder you're talking to, you find the right thing that they care about. And then you can kind of start there and go, Well, we keep repeating a lot of work, and it costs us a lot of money and resources that we could be putting elsewhere on innovative things and all of that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And that is quite compelling.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah
Andy Polaine
Oh, yeah. Well, we don't want to be doing that. We really want to be... Well, the way we think we can do that is if we map out the end to end process, and then you're saying, and so in order to do that, we need some more service designers.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And you start at the other end. And that I found is a really when I get people to present their stuff to me and coaching, that's almost always what we what we do, which is to try and get it out of that self evident loop. You know, more service designers. Why? Because service designers are great.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, yeah. Well, two things occur --
Andy Polaine
Or whatever flavor.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yes. Fill in the blank designer.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
Two things occur to me as you're talking about the question that you ask, the big question is another version of and maybe it's not five of them, but it's almost like the five whys -- like you really boil it down to get to that core reason.
Andy Polaine
Absolutely.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep. And then I'm reminded of an article that Jared Spool wrote back in 2019 around how designers need to think and talk like an executive. Part of that's for buy-in, and part of that's for lots of other reasons. But I think taking it out of that echo chamber of this is what we do as designers like we work on aesthetics and color combinations and which, you know, if you boil it down to matters like accessibility and people being able to access a system, that becomes much more tangible than I like this blue better.
Andy Polaine
Right?
Skipper Chong Warson
Which I think how people perceive, how people perceive designers work now --
Andy Polaine
Yeah, I kind of agree and disagree. I know what you're saying. And I seem to remember reading the article as a few other people have kind of written similar things. I think it's not so much that you have to talk like an executive. I think you said this is to kind of think like them and understand, you know, what matters to that person. And so that's really empathetic, right? What does this person care about? That's why I talk about the fear and anxiety thing. Because usually -- what are they afraid and anxious about? Is a really good starting point for what they care about.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
Because we, you know, we care about the stuff. And there's a very good book by Dave Gray, who, you know, a lot of people will know from his other work, like "The Connected Company" and, you know, Gamestorming and stuff.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
It's an early book of his. It's called "Selling to the VP of No." And it's all about that. It's all about that kind of process of trying to this person. Has got 100 people coming to them every day saying, I want resources, and they've got a limited amount of resources.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
So how do you persuade them that they should spend it on yours instead of someone else?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And there's a lot of stuff in there around that kind of thinking that we're talking about.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
But the bit I disagree with is what I was saying before, which is not to lose your identity and your superpower. As a designer, most people cannot make an idea tangible in anything other than a deck or writing. So most meetings are there where people are saying, well, I've got this idea, and we're talking about this thing, and here's a diagram, really awful diagram with arrows going everywhere, classic management consultant diagram.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right.
Andy Polaine
Arrows pointing at everything else.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And, or, you know, some bullet points. And what they're trying to do is an act of telepathy. They're trying to say, you know, I've got this idea in my head, and I'm trying to get it into yours.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yep.
Andy Polaine
What design is really, really good at, and we forget, because we kind of do it all day, is I've got an idea about something, let me show you, and that's either really a good diagram that explains something that's quite abstract and that we all know, things like journey maps and other things. They're all abstractions from the whole thing.
Skipper Chong Warson
For sure.
Andy Polaine
The classic Venn diagram, but we're also able to make sketches of things and or make a mock-up of something, or make services which are often intangible. You can make a video of this is what it would be like with real people but fake touch points that you do a kind of day in the life of video.
Skipper Chong Warson
Sure.
Andy Polaine
And it's a great communication tool, because then you have that thing of someone going, Well, I don't really understand this. Instead of like, I don't really understand this, I don't really get this, I'm going to just say, No.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
They see a thing, and they're like, Oh, well, that should exist in the world. Yeah? Take the resources, take my money.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And we're really good at doing that.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And I think that's an important thing to remember as a designer in a leadership role.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, that's fair, absolutely a fair point. And yes, thank you. So let's jump into our closing questions. We have some quick closing questions that we have with all of our guests. Andy, what's a significant lesson or something that you now know in your life that you wish you would have known earlier?
Andy Polaine
You know, I think I've learned so many things. I've learned an awful lot from my students and coachees. Actually, you know, this is the weird thing about that, is that when you teach or you coach, people look at you as if you know all the answers. But actually, you know, I feel like I'm getting lessons the whole time. I would say one that just comes to mind because I talked about it at the Service Design Global Conference last week is that I have been the difficult stakeholder. So there's this sketch that people know by Mitchell and Webb, and they're dressed up in Nazi-esque uniforms on a film set, and they turn to they're having a chat with each other, and they turn to each other, and they ask, Are we the baddies, and because you see them as a normal people, right? And then they're that Oh, hang on where they've just realized they're there. The bad isn't moving right now or in this in this war. And I think I've realized that I have been the difficult stakeholder. It was a bit of an unpleasant realization, but I've definitely been someone who's been a kind of arrogant, belligerent, cocky, whatever, blocking stakeholder as a design leader, particularly to some other colleagues in business who didn't really get what I was being like that about. And, you know, burnt some bridges. So I think I learned far too late that that's a thing that can happen. And also, you know, what pushes my buttons to kind of make me get me in that state.
Skipper Chong Warson
That is interesting, that turnaround of seeing yourself from another vantage point. So Andy, what are you watching right now? Or reading or listening to something that's got you really excited?
Andy Polaine
I've been reading a lot about relationships, actually, and, you know, for both for myself, but also for the work I do. And Esther Perel, who most people know from her work, talking about relationships and sex in particular. And, you know, I think kind of sex is interesting, because it's the thing that everyone supposedly does, but no one really talks about even with their partners.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
And there's, I think, a parallel to that thing that I was talking about earlier in work, which is if sex is kind of the parallel to human emotions in the workplace.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
But nobody wants to talk about it, yeah. No one wants to go there and that. Yet, everyone suffers from it, the kind of thing that's going from my head anyway. Recently on her podcast feed, she's had a couple of sessions that she's recording. With people who are business partners.
Andy Polaine
I see.
Andy Polaine
And one of them I listened to was called, you're, you're inching me out from these two British guys, or one's kind of half German, half British, and they started this business together as, like, kind of advertising mark on, sort of branding company, I think.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
And they've sort of gone different ways, right? They've gone different and one of them keeps leaning into while the other business decision stuff and the other one's going but we used to be really good friends, and I really had your back earlier on, right? And now you don't have mine.
Skipper Chong Warson
Right?
Andy Polaine
You know, then Esther Perel applies her Esther Perelness to it, and it's really touching. It's very moving, yeah, and I've had that come up and coaching fairly often, actually, where that's been going on because it was really fascinating for me to see it cast in that light. So that's been that's been very, very good -- that's been something I've been listening to recently.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it, and we'll link to it in the show notes, so that way people have a way to access it easily. So Andy, if you were given unexpectedly a day off and you had unlimited resources on this day, what's something that you would do?
Andy Polaine
Unlimited resources?
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And I only have a day to do it in?
Skipper Chong Warson
Only a day, gotta apply a constraint.
Andy Polaine
Unlimited resources, but only a day.
Skipper Chong Warson
Exactly.
Andy Polaine
I think I would probably travel. I would ever go and travel and see people I haven't seen for a while, for a very long time, because I've just had that experience last week, and that was nice.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
Or I think I would go and do something that I haven't ever done before. I talked in my talk, I talked about this quite often, about sort of tandem skydiving, and I've done it twice in my life. But maybe I do something like that. You know where I go and have an experience that I have I've never had before. Okay, probably something that kind of shakes me out of my sloth and stasis.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
I would think, yeah.
Skipper Chong Warson
What's one thing that you think will be true in one year?
Andy Polaine
People are still going to be struggling to relate with each other, but desperately want to.
Skipper Chong Warson
So for people who want to learn more about you or your work, apart from our discussion, and like I said, we'll have links in the show notes, where can they find out additional information about you?
Andy Polaine
The place where it all is is my website, polaine.com. If you go to that and then slash coaching, you'll get to my coaching practice (polaine.com/coaching). The podcast is called Powers of 10 where I interview my people in all spectrums of design and sort of design adjacent things.
Andy Polaine
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And then you'll find that in all the places where you find podcasts, wherever you listen to this one, and then I have a YouTube channel. Put my name in the search, Andy Polaine in YouTube, and you'll find it. I'm apolaine there.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay.
Andy Polaine
On YouTube, where the coaching reflections are, the podcast goes up there some, some other bits and pieces sometimes, too.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
And then the last thing is, I have a newsletter called Doctors Note. And if you just go to newsletter.polaine.com, you will find it there.
Skipper Chong Warson
Got it.
Andy Polaine
I'm on Mastodon and LinkedIn as well. I'm not on Twitter anymore.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah.
Andy Polaine
For obvious reasons.
Skipper Chong Warson
Well, thank you, Andy. I really appreciate your time and our conversation today over the years. I think of you quite fondly, and I feel like every time we interact, I always learn something from you, and this time has been no different. So thank you.
Andy Polaine
Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for the stimulating questions too.
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, that's a wrap for this episode of The How This Works show. Thanks for tuning in and for supporting us. If you enjoyed it, please share the show with just one other person that would mean a lot. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find us online at howthisworks.show, that's four words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show, we're now publishing our full episodes on YouTube and also active in most social media places. I hope you found my conversation with Andy insightful. I know I did. Until next time, stay curious And we'll chat again soon. You
[Outro music]
Andy Polaine
I just thought my wife just got someone who's a patient arrived. And I don't if you can hear them in the background, but I can, okay,
Skipper Chong Warson
I know I can't. Nope.
Andy Polaine
Okay. I think there might be a couple of door slams. That's what I was waiting for -- I. Yeah, I would just go for -- if there's a door slam, then I will --
Skipper Chong Warson
Yeah, I heard that.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, you can hear that, yeah, even with my super directional mic actually.
Skipper Chong Warson
Okay, there you called it.
Andy Polaine
Yeah, she just dropped her keys. Okay, okay.
Skipper Chong Warson
I didn't know if that was a door. Yep.
Andy Polaine
I don't know if you want to, if you've got a pause on here, or if we'll just leave it running.
Skipper Chong Warson
We can just leave it running. I'll have my editor knock it out.