CMO Secrets to Maximize Recruiter & Network Relationships

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What does it look like to be good at networking?



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To be able to grow your network, nurture it, give to it, and get from it?



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And what does it mean to work with a recruiter?



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Many CMOs have admitted to me that they are really bad at networking, and



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many have asked me how they can best work with recruiters as a candidate?



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Today, we look at programmatic ways to work with your network, whether



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that means recruiters, former colleagues, current colleagues,



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personal boards of advisors, etc.



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If you can get good at this, your decision-making will be stronger



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with input from others, and you can get connected to more opportunities,



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making friends along the way.



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Hello, and welcome to The Get.



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I'm your host, Erica Seidel.



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This season, we focus on the race to reduce risk when it comes to a



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match between a company and a CMO.



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How can you find out what you need to find out before saying yes so that you



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make a match that sticks and flourishes?



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Today, you'll hear some tips from me about working with executive recruiters.



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Then you will meet my guest, Tracy Eiler.



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She will share the playbook that has helped her tap her



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network and collaborate well with recruiters over several CMO jobs.



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Let's first talk about how to work with executive recruiters as a candidate.



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Some words to the wise.



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First, executive search people like myself work on behalf of the



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companies, not the candidates.



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We don't have the model of working with candidates to curate their



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set of opportunities per se.



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We are instead helping companies that are looking for very particular things.



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I like to say eleven out of ten requirements.



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That means that the chance I could place a particular marketing leader



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is lower than I wish it would be, even if the person has great experience.



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I often tell people that I'm not a substitute for a



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career coach or a therapist.



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But of course, I do a lot of coaching for the candidates I have



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in play for particular searches, guiding them through that process.



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When I think about the marketing leaders that I have the closest relationships



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with, there's some things in common.



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They have the background that I tend to place, marketing leaders



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at scale-up companies in B2B SaaS.



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They have contributed to strong, scaled journeys.



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They've gotten back to me when I've reached out to them.



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They've said things like, I want to look at this or maybe this is



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not the fit for me, but let's chat.



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Let me introduce you to somebody who is a good fit.



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They might be somebody that I've met in person at some event or,



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obviously, through an interview.



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Maybe they've been a candidate already for me in the past.



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They've shared their views on the market and not just asked me for mine.



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So, let's say you have a conversation with a recruiter



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without a particular role in mind.



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Kind of a get-to-know-you conversation.



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Some tips for you.



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First, do your research.



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Check out the recruiter's content.



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Get to know their focus area.



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Second, have your scale-up numbers at the ready.



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Know what your business impact is and say it.



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If you have helped a company go from fifty million to a



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hundred million, spit that out.



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If you've built a marketing team from ten people to twenty-five



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and then back down to fifteen, but with increased output, share that.



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Third, be clear on what you're looking for job wise.



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Sometimes people spend too much time with me talking about what they did fifteen,



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twenty years ago, when really what you want is to create the triggers for,



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call me for this kind of opportunity.



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For instance, oh, I'm looking for a Series B cybersecurity company, you



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know, based on the East Coast, where the marketing leader should have a



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real strong depth in product marketing.



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That's helpful for me to hear.



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Now, let's say the executive search person has a role that could be a good



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fit for you, and they have shared the name of the company, so you have a



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real opportunity to work with them.



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Take the call if you have even a small amount of curiosity about the role.



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I've placed many people who went from twenty percent interested,



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to fifty percent interested, to 110 percent interested over the



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course of just a few conversations.



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And check out the company, come with a quick point of view.



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Especially now, the best candidates are doing that.



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Then, once you're meeting others from the company, share your reactions



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honestly with the recruiter.



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Candidates can really shape the direction of a search and the



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perspective of the recruiter and the CEO more than they sometimes think.



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There's so much more to talk about, so let's bring on another perspective.



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Let me introduce you to my guest, Tracy Eiler.



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Tracy has been named one of the fifteen most influential women in B2B marketing.



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She's now the CMO of OpenSesame, the Series D company in the e-learning space.



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Previously, she served as CMO at Alation, InsideView, and MarkLogic, to name a few.



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She's an advisor with Women in Revenue, which is a great organization.



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I've tried to recruit her many times before, and you will likely find



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her just as impressive as I do.



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She's going to discuss with us her playbook for pressure testing a role,



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and she'll share her programmatic approach to working with people in



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her network, both recruiters and colleagues, to help get to the right fit.



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And she'll discuss tips for CEOs to demonstrate their support of marketing.



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Tracy, welcome to the show.



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Thanks for having me.



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I'm really thrilled to be here, especially after listening to last season.



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Oh, wonderful.



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Thank you for being a listener.



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I appreciate that.



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Let's launch right in.



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So you landed as CMO at OpenSesame in the last year, I think, right?



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And you



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- Yes.



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Right.



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So you mentioned you had checked out about thirty different opportunities.



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I did, I did.



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So that is, that is a lot.



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And I know you're picky about what you say yes to having talked to you before.



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So, um, can you talk about how this search for you was different from



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the past, and maybe share a couple of things that you learned or that you



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did that others could learn from as they seek to kind of mitigate risk



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with, with their hiring and recruiting?



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Yes, absolutely.



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I think every one of your listeners knows what a weird climate that we are in.



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Companies want successful marketers to join them, but yet they might have had a



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bad experience in the past or been burned or overhired teams and then downsized.



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There's just volatility everywhere.



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And every marketer I know has come in and out of businesses, sometimes



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in less than eighteen months, sometimes in less than a year.



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You know, there's that joke, not joke about marketing people having



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eighteen-month tenures, but you know, it's, it's happened to me.



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So I, this time around, was incredibly deliberate about what



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I was looking at and looking for.



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And at this stage of my career, I really wanted to be in a slightly more mature



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company, something that was C or D in terms of a series, that really was looking



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to scale and appreciated efficiency, that had really good business fundamentals.



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I've been through that growth-at-all-costs whirlwind that many of us have been in



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and we're in a different climate, right?



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So I started looking for my new opportunity, and really what I did



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first was proactively reach out to recruiters that I know and trust and



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just say, "Hey, I'm looking around.



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These are the sorts of things I'm looking for if anything comes up."



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Right?



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Start there, but then I was also looking at kind of segments of



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the market that I think are really interesting, or people that I know



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that are at interesting companies that I would then go and learn about.



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And then you just start shortlisting and start interviewing, right?



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And I, I think one of my skills that I have developed really well, Erica, is the



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fast assessment phase when you first hear from someone like you and you see a job



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spec, and you look at a company, I can pretty much rule out a business maybe in



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five or ten minutes I can rule them out.



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And you know, you might think, Oh my God, how can you make



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such a fast snap decision?



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But there's just a bunch of different things I look at,



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and I'd be happy to share that.



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Yeah, yeah.



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I do want to get to that.



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I also want to say I love what you said about a short list.



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So it sounds like you had a list of companies that kind of fit your criteria.



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And I'm wondering, it's funny cause so many CMOs don't actually do that.



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I'll, I'll share that as feedback with them when they come to me, I'll say like,



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Oh, create your kind of networking map of different companies and, you know,



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different swim lanes for your search.



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And so I love to hear that you did that.



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Can you talk about, like, is that, is that rare?



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To do, do you think?



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I do think so.



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Although, I have spoken to really good, trusted advisors, friends of



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mine, and trusted advisors, like Sydney Sloan's a good example.



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you know Sydney.



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She has done a very deliberate search in her past also.



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You know, in fact, during this time, we were both looking at different roles



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and comparing notes and even trading opportunities, almost like baseball cards.



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Like there were a couple of times she'd call me and say, Hey, I



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just talked to this company.



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Here's their story.



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They're in Atlanta, blah-di-blah.



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I think you could be a really good fit there.



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It's not for me.



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And I've done, you know, the same with other people too, which I



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don't know if that's, I think that's probably unusual also, right?



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Yes!



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It seems so obvious, and a lot of people don't do it.



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And I, I love that.



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Like, just call up other people who might be getting the calls that you want to



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get, and say, hey, if it's not the right time for you, not the right opportunity,



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not the right location, send them my way.



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Right?



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Yeah.



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Yeah.



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So talk to me a little bit about your, you know, let's call it your pressure testing



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playbook, just cause I love alliteration.



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So when you explore a new role, and how does it help you kind of avoid risk?



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Can you talk about that?



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Yeah, absolutely.



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It's funny because until you and I were preparing for this



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conversation, I hadn't really thought about what my methodology was.



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I just know that I have one.



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My husband's a Chief Revenue Officer, and he's looking for his next opportunity.



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And I've been helping him with that super fast assessment.



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He'll be like, hey, can you go do the thing with this opportunity?



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And I'll go do the thing.



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And the thing is, essentially, I look at their website.



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I do a quick scan on who do they seem to be?



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How are they presenting themselves?



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I will then quickly pivot over to the team that's there that,



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that you can identify, right?



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Certainly the leadership that's identifiable, board members, if they're



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on the site, they're not always.



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And then I'll go right over to LinkedIn and I'll start looking



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at employees that are there.



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You know, how big are they?



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I look at that insights thing that you can find on a company profile.



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Get an idea of are they growing really fast?



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Are they leveling out?



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Have they downsized?



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You see all of those shapes now.



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And I'll look at the people that are there in kind of the next click down level,



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the VPs, the directors of functional areas, just to kind of get a feeling



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for like, where are these people?



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I'll give you an example of one that I told my husband to run away from.



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He was looking at an organization where once I did my double click



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down, I discovered that the leadership team and like the one level down,



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between all of them had like seventy years of Cisco experience.



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Not that Cisco's a bad company.



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Cisco's an awesome company.



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But the homogeneity in that leadership team, having all been at the same business



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for so long together, and now in this new business together, just said to



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him, you're going to be the odd man out.



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You're not a Cisco person.



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I don't think that's a good idea, right?



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And as it turned out, as he started talking to them, there was



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a lot of practices that they had that weren't really appropriate



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for their size and stage.



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They were a much smaller startup, and they'd all come



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from this big, big company.



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That's an example of the kind of sleuthing around that I do.



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I'll also read what people in the company are writing about, whether it be Glassdoor



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or LinkedIn posts on their engagement in their own businesses or other places



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where I'll go seek out information.



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And you know, none of those sources are perfect, right?



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I've heard plenty of people discredit Glassdoor employee reviews saying,



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oh, it's just the disgruntled people.



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But you know, you directionally get a sense.



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That's kind of my point.



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And my advice to other people is sample a lot of different sources of information.



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You're going to get a sense for the health of that business and



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the attitude and the culture.



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Yeah, yeah.



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That's great.



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I love how your husband calls it, "do the thing," you know?



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[Laughter] Do you write it up as you go?



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Or is it just kind of like, you know, a few notes here



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and there and it's informing



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- Um it depends how many I'm looking at, right?



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Like, you know, there was a time where I was probably getting,



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oh my gosh, two or three inbound inquiries a week from recruiters.



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This is going back to 2020, 2021.



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And, you know, I would have to do the thing, do the superfast scan very quickly



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because I also have this tenant where even if I'm happy in my current role,



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if I know and trust that recruiter, I will often take a quick look at the



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spec and then give advice back like, hey, do you know these five people?



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I think they'd be good to network with, or whatever.



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I just did it yesterday.



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I do that whether I'm looking or not, and I find that to be



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a very good behavior to have.



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I agree.



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And thank you.



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Cause you've done that for me many times and I appreciate that.



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And I think that's a good tip for people that even if you're not, um,



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even if you think you're going to be a no for an opportunity, take the call.



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You make a connection.



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You help somebody out.



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Recruiters have good memories usually and can, you know, remember that.



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And you never know sometimes a no becomes a yes.



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You never know.



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It's very true.



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Cool.



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So, I'm curious about, you know, as part of your de-risking, part of it,



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I'm sure, is looking at the CEO and trying to figure out their commitment



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and their support for marketing.



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What would be your advice on the other side?



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So to CEOs, what is your advice to CEOs on how they can best demonstrate



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that to attract a candidate like you?



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You know, there's many things that I have experienced with CEOs ranging from, I



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worked for a CEO once who really wanted sales and marketing to be oppositional.



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He wanted us to fight.



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And I think it's because he felt there was some Darwinian survival of



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the fittest thing that was going to happen and we'd get a better result,



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which we all know that never happens.



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So I pressure test for attitudes about common pitfalls that I see



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marketers running into again and again, fighting with sales or sales and



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marketing misalignment is one of them.



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So I will ask questions of a CEO about their posture around sales and



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marketing, and they can demonstrate back to me by saying something



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simple as, I want you to be joined at the hip with our head of sales.



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When they say that, I know they don't want me to fight with that person, right?



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That's a good example.



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Another example would be, I want to see that they can articulate who



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they think the business should be in the market, or what posture the



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company should have in the market, and they're able to give me examples



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of brands that they know and love.



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I'll often ask, like, tell me about a brand that you just love.



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And it doesn't have to be in tech.



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It could be a consumer brand.



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I learn a lot that way.



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My current CEO, Don Spear, is a very unique CEO for me in my lifetime, where



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he is not a engineering technical founder who started the company at a really,



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really early stage in their career and then kind of grew up with the business.



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I've worked with a bunch of those kinds of people.



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Don was a submarine Lieutenant in the Navy and then went to Harvard Business



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School and he and his roommate wrote the first business plan for PetSmart.



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He was too risk-averse at the time to go found the company.



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He was newly married and had a young child and so on, but ended up



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joining PetSmart when they were about seven stores, and grew them to 250



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stores and then ended up selling it.



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And then he went on to found and run Banfield Pet Hospital, which



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I don't know if you've seen them, but in the northeast, it's like a



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chain of veterinary pop-in places.



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So Don is, he has a retailer's mind and very much talks in those terms.



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He understands all the, the four P's of marketing.



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And he himself will say, like, you have to make an emotional



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00:15:31
connection with the buyer.



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00:15:33
That is the way that you build trust.



Speaker:
00:15:34
That is the way that you get them coming back.



Speaker:
00:15:36
But he's not a marketing expert at all, right?



Speaker:
00:15:38
He doesn't pretend to be, but through those, some of those experiences, I really



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00:15:43
came to evaluate him as somebody that would appreciate the complexity that the



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00:15:48
marketing role has in a business and the kinds of challenges that we would have.



Speaker:
00:15:53
That's really been remarkable and a big difference for me



Speaker:
00:15:56
working for somebody like that.



Speaker:
00:15:57
Hmm.



Speaker:
00:15:58
That's great.



Speaker:
00:15:59
He sounds terrific.



Speaker:
00:16:00
How about on the other side?



Speaker:
00:16:01
Have you seen any kind of red flags or sniffed out somebody who's not



Speaker:
00:16:06
going to be a great marketing partner?



Speaker:
00:16:07
Is there a particular example of that?



Speaker:
00:16:09
[Laughs] Oh yeah.



Speaker:
00:16:10
And it's not always the CEO.



Speaker:
00:16:12
You know, it might be a head of sales or it might be someone in finance.



Speaker:
00:16:15
It's unfortunate and I've heard people on your podcast talk about



Speaker:
00:16:18
this and many of my friends that are CMOs - marketing is just very



Speaker:
00:16:21
misunderstood, not thoroughly understood.



Speaker:
00:16:25
And I think it's because all of us in our human lives and our regular lives, we are



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00:16:30
the audience of so much marketing, right?



Speaker:
00:16:32
We are making buying decisions all the time, and therefore we have opinions



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00:16:35
about what good marketing is and isn't.



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00:16:37
So no matter who you are in a company, you're going to have an opinion about what



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00:16:40
marketing should and shouldn't be doing.



Speaker:
00:16:42
And that's unique, right?



Speaker:
00:16:43
I don't have an opinion about what engineering should and shouldn't be doing.



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00:16:46
I don't know how to build products.



Speaker:
00:16:47
I don't know how to code, right?



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00:16:49
So I can't come across with any credibility in that conversation.



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00:16:52
But yet, our heads of product can because they are recipients



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00:16:56
of marketing all the time.



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00:16:58
So I find as marketers, we end ourselves up in businesses where we



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00:17:02
have to do loads and loads of internal marketing and communicating and not



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00:17:06
only about what we're going to do, but what we're not and why we made a



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00:17:10
decision to do thing A versus thing B.



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00:17:13
In fact, right now we're working on a website redesign and we're using a



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00:17:17
very much iterative kind of testing approach to decide where we land on



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00:17:22
fundamental things like our homepage.



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00:17:24
And, you know, I'm using that mantra that we are continuously



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00:17:29
testing because of this constant opinion that we keep getting back.



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00:17:33
So that for me is a scenario that I think we all should expect that there's



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00:17:38
going to be lots of opinions about what we should and shouldn't be doing.



Speaker:
00:17:41
And we need to be the ones that are going to provide clarity on



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00:17:43
how we're making decisions and why.



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00:17:45
Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling it's like this Chief Marketing Education Officer is



Speaker:
00:17:50
- It's true.



Speaker:
00:17:50
- you know, it's, it's such a thing.



Speaker:
00:17:52
It's such a thing.



Speaker:
00:17:53
So, Erika, there's one story I wanted to tell you.



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00:17:55
I got my very first CMO job at a company called MarkLogic.



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00:17:59
I had done my due diligence.



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00:18:00
I'd known the CEO.



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00:18:01
I'd worked for him in other companies.



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00:18:03
He had chewed up and spit out four marketing VPs in three years.



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00:18:06
And I knew that, but I knew it was because he kept hiring in



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00:18:10
the product marketing image.



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00:18:11
And he's a product marketer, and I'm a much more demand and brand marketer.



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00:18:16
So the need, I felt I would be successful there.



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00:18:19
I'd met the CRO, but the mistake I made was I didn't meet the CRO's



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00:18:22
lieutenants who were kind of VPs of sales in a couple different divisions.



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00:18:26
So this business was only 15 million when I joined.



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00:18:28
The day that I met the four VPs of these divisions, I go bouncing in,



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00:18:33
in my, you know, lighthearted self.



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00:18:35
Hey, I'm so excited to meet all of you!



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00:18:37
And I put my hand out and the alpha of the group who had run the federal team,



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00:18:42
literally looked up at me, shook his hand like waving away a fly, and turned



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00:18:46
around and kept talking to everybody else.



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00:18:49
Wouldn't shake my hand, wouldn't talk to me.



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00:18:51
I'm standing there going, oh my god, like, is this really happening?



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00:18:55
And you know, when you're outside yourself, looking at yourself,



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00:18:57
kind of like, what's gonna happen?



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00:18:59
And this voice came out of me, which was my mom's voice, and I just said,



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00:19:03
seriously, this is how it's going to be?



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00:19:05
Like, y'all are not even going to talk to me?



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00:19:08
Like, I know that you've had many predecessors before and I'm sorry



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00:19:13
about that, but unless you talk to me, you're going to be meeting



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00:19:15
number five in about six months.



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00:19:17
So how about we do a redo?



Speaker:
00:19:19
And that's what we did.



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00:19:21
And, you know, it kind of shamed them into it, but it was crazy.



Speaker:
00:19:24
The punchline to this story is the one who swatted me away is now my husband.



Speaker:
00:19:31
Um



Speaker:
00:19:31
- No!



Speaker:
00:19:32
Yes, yes, yes.



Speaker:
00:19:34
[Erica chuckling] Yes.



Speaker:
00:19:36
So...



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00:19:37
[Tracy laughs]



Speaker:
00:19:37
Wow!



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00:19:38
How we got from A to B is a lot of trust and a lot of friendship and a lot of



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00:19:42
lead generation for the sales team and then, you know, the rest is history.



Speaker:
00:19:46
Did you ask why he was just swatting you away?



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00:19:50
Oh, he denies it.



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00:19:51
He's like, that's not how it happened.



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00:19:53
And I'm like, yes, it was.



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00:19:53
There were witnesses.



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00:19:55
I mean, basically, the point of view of those sales leaders, and I totally see



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00:19:58
it, was, oh god, here comes another one.



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00:20:01
Yet another marketing person coming in here with their



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00:20:03
playbook and their attitude.



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00:20:05
They think they know everything.



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00:20:07
You all have probably heard that term in the military, the "FNG?"



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00:20:10
The F-ing New G uy, basically.



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00:20:13
So you know, you've got this whole, this whole troop and you get the



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00:20:16
new person in and they basically, you know, they get shot fast because



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00:20:19
they don't know what they're doing.



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00:20:20
And that was what came to their mind.



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00:20:22
They're just like, oh my god, here comes another one.



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00:20:25
And just a lot of eye rolling.



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00:20:27
Wow.



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00:20:27
Well, they didn't know who they had there.



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00:20:29
So that's, that's great.



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00:20:30
I like that you didn't put, you didn't let yourself be put in a one down position.



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00:20:34
You kind of like interacted as



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00:20:36
- I don't know how else I could have handled it, honestly.



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00:20:38
I think back on that, I'm like, I could have run crying



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00:20:40
from the room and quit, right?



Speaker:
00:20:41
Like, it would have been easy.



Speaker:
00:20:43
That was, these guys are just jerks, but I get it.



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00:20:46
Like, I understand why they behaved that way.



Speaker:
00:20:48
It's terribly rude, but you know, I kind of get it.



Speaker:
00:20:51
Wow.



Speaker:
00:20:52
That's great.



Speaker:
00:20:52
Thank you for sharing that story!



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00:20:54
So, talk also about working with recruiters.



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00:20:58
What does it mean in your mind to work with a recruiter?



Speaker:
00:21:02
You've talked a little bit about taking a call even if it's not quite the right



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00:21:05
fit for you, which I think is great.



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00:21:06
Can you talk about other dimensions of how you have collaborated with recruiters?



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00:21:11
I have been very fortunate, and gotten to know some extremely



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00:21:16
talented recruiters in my career.



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00:21:18
Some that have placed me in opportunities, some that I've worked with and looking



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00:21:21
at opportunities that didn't work out.



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00:21:23
And the really good ones are advisors.



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00:21:27
I almost end up feeling like they're my agent, my talent



Speaker:
00:21:30
agent, and are representing me.



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00:21:33
Now, there's no doubt that, you know, a recruiter is going to make money



Speaker:
00:21:38
when they place you somewhere, right?



Speaker:
00:21:40
But they're only going to be successful if that placement ends up to be a good one.



Speaker:
00:21:44
So, you know, I think we have to trust that the recruiting process is going



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00:21:49
to weed out the candidates that aren't the right fit and put forward the



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00:21:52
candidates that are, and then help us, as candidates, put our best foot forward.



Speaker:
00:21:57
And tell us the truth, right?



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00:21:59
There's nothing I appreciate more than when a recruiter says to me, "Hey Tracy,



Speaker:
00:22:03
they're concerned that you did not grow up in product marketing because they



Speaker:
00:22:06
think that's a really important skill."



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00:22:08
And my response to that will be, they're right.



Speaker:
00:22:10
I did not grow up in product marketing.



Speaker:
00:22:12
Let me tell you the ways that I supplement that lack of core talent in my



Speaker:
00:22:19
skillset, let's just call it like that.



Speaker:
00:22:21
And if that's not good enough, then we should walk away, right?



Speaker:
00:22:24
If they're really hung up on a particular thing, then let's just say no.



Speaker:
00:22:27
And I'm going to move on to the next thing.



Speaker:
00:22:29
And I think good recruiters can really help weed some of that out because,



Speaker:
00:22:32
you know, there's multidimensionality to every marketer and you can't,



Speaker:
00:22:35
you're not going to get a hundred percent score in every dimension.



Speaker:
00:22:38
So I really think good recruiters need to help CEOs prioritize and



Speaker:
00:22:43
define what they think they need for the next two, three, five years.



Speaker:
00:22:47
Right, right.



Speaker:
00:22:48
And it's such a calibration.



Speaker:
00:22:49
You go back and forth.



Speaker:
00:22:50
And I think candidates don't realize that they can, with their feedback



Speaker:
00:22:54
and with their shaping, they can help to, they can help the recruiter



Speaker:
00:22:57
and the CEO to shape the search and the outcome a little more than they



Speaker:
00:23:01
might give themselves credit for.



Speaker:
00:23:03
Yes.



Speaker:
00:23:04
And I really use recruiters as sounding boards in situations where,



Speaker:
00:23:08
uh, when I was looking for my current role, I got to the altar five times.



Speaker:
00:23:14
Meaning, I was one of the top two candidates.



Speaker:
00:23:17
Several of those times I walked away at the end because I just in the end



Speaker:
00:23:21
decided, you know what, I don't think this is going to be the best place for me,



Speaker:
00:23:25
even though I went this far and it's so hard to walk away when you get that far.



Speaker:
00:23:29
But I'm glad I did.



Speaker:
00:23:30
A couple of the times they didn't pick me.



Speaker:
00:23:32
They picked the other person.



Speaker:
00:23:33
And in all of those scenarios, the recruiter was very much a sounding



Speaker:
00:23:37
board for me about my decision process and what was concerning me, what



Speaker:
00:23:42
was making me hesitant, and helped me explore it in a way that allowed



Speaker:
00:23:47
me to be confident about my choice.



Speaker:
00:23:50
Yeah, yeah, that's great.



Speaker:
00:23:51
And it sounds like you've invested in those relationships beforehand and



Speaker:
00:23:56
while, while you're doing the search, you know, as well to have that kind of



Speaker:
00:24:00
- That's exactly why when I do get an inbound inquiry, I respond.



Speaker:
00:24:04
Because I feel like I'm just going to keep giving and giving and giving advice.



Speaker:
00:24:08
Sometimes I'll read a spec, for example.



Speaker:
00:24:10
I read one the other day that I just responded to that



Speaker:
00:24:13
I was mentioning earlier.



Speaker:
00:24:14
And there's a piece of the spec where I'm like, that doesn't make any sense.



Speaker:
00:24:16
And I told the recruiter that.



Speaker:
00:24:18
I said, this thing, this piece here just seems incongruous with everything else.



Speaker:
00:24:21
You might want to take a fresh look at that.



Speaker:
00:24:22
It struck me as odd.



Speaker:
00:24:24
And he was very grateful.



Speaker:
00:24:25
He's like, thank you for telling me that.



Speaker:
00:24:26
I thought it was odd too, but the company insisted to put it in there.



Speaker:
00:24:29
And that kind of stuff happens all the time.



Speaker:
00:24:31
Yeah.



Speaker:
00:24:32
Yeah.



Speaker:
00:24:32
They say, you know, give to get.



Speaker:
00:24:34
Just be a giver and give advice back on good candidates and other things.



Speaker:
00:24:39
Right, right.



Speaker:
00:24:39
There's a great book, Give and Get.



Speaker:
00:24:40
I don't know, have you read the book by - oh god, uh, Adam Grant?



Speaker:
00:24:45
Is that his name?



Speaker:
00:24:46
Oh, I love Adam Grant.



Speaker:
00:24:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.



Speaker:
00:24:48
Giving and Getting?



Speaker:
00:24:49
Give and Get?



Speaker:
00:24:49
Give to Get?



Speaker:
00:24:50
You know, something like that.



Speaker:
00:24:51
Yeah, he talks about there are givers, there are takers, and there are matchers.



Speaker:
00:24:54
And so it's, it's fascinating.



Speaker:
00:24:56
It's one of his first things.



Speaker:
00:24:57
Um, I would like to say also, I love your example of, "Oh, Tracy,



Speaker:
00:25:02
we're not sure about your depth of product marketing experience."



Speaker:
00:25:06
One of the best questions I get from candidates is, "Erica, what



Speaker:
00:25:11
are the concerns that you or the company have about my candidacy?"



Speaker:
00:25:16
Because that's a way that you can, as the candidate, they can hear



Speaker:
00:25:20
how they've been perceived and correct any miscommunications.



Speaker:
00:25:26
Because sometimes a recruiter didn't hear or, or, you know, just didn't fully grasp



Speaker:
00:25:30
the extent of somebody's background.



Speaker:
00:25:32
So, when you play it back, like, oh, okay, the client wants XYZ and you have



Speaker:
00:25:36
ABC, that can be helpful to just kind of have that, that calibration moment.



Speaker:
00:25:41
There's good examples that fit into what you're saying.



Speaker:
00:25:44
For example, if you just look at someone's LinkedIn profile or resume,



Speaker:
00:25:48
you may not know that they have worked on multiple acquisitions.



Speaker:
00:25:52
You may not know that they have extensive experience in EMEA, but not in Asia.



Speaker:
00:25:57
You might not know that they were an SDR at the beginning of their



Speaker:
00:26:01
career, a sales development rep.



Speaker:
00:26:02
I was.



Speaker:
00:26:03
But that comes out in the conversation and then you realize, oh my gosh, I



Speaker:
00:26:07
probably should have put that in writing, but a good recruiter is going to tease



Speaker:
00:26:11
out those things and help, you know, really amplify what's unique about you.



Speaker:
00:26:15
Right, right.



Speaker:
00:26:16
Yeah, that's a lot of what we do.



Speaker:
00:26:17
Because you talk to so many people and it's like, oh, okay, well,



Speaker:
00:26:19
you have this combination of these two things and that's rare.



Speaker:
00:26:22
So I, I love that.



Speaker:
00:26:23
That's the fun part.



Speaker:
00:26:24
Let's talk about networking broadly.



Speaker:
00:26:27
So part of working with recruiters is kind of a networky thing, but, you know,



Speaker:
00:26:30
networking can be kind of a dirty word or a necessary evil for some people.



Speaker:
00:26:35
Yeah, yeah.



Speaker:
00:26:35
And, and many people will say to me, god, I wish I had a bigger network,



Speaker:
00:26:39
or I wish I knew how to network, or I wish I enjoyed networking,



Speaker:
00:26:43
you know, types of events more.



Speaker:
00:26:45
So it seems like you have a different approach to it.



Speaker:
00:26:48
And I'm wondering, maybe you're just more extroverted.



Speaker:
00:26:51
I don't know, or more programmatic about it, but can you, can you talk



Speaker:
00:26:54
about how you approach networking?



Speaker:
00:26:56
Because if you think about there's different, it seems like for



Speaker:
00:26:58
you, you have, you know, you're connected to several recruiters.



Speaker:
00:27:03
You have your Women in Revenue organization.



Speaker:
00:27:06
You're also an advocate, it seems like, for women in marketing.



Speaker:
00:27:09
had people who've worked for you, people you've worked for, you've had investors.



Speaker:
00:27:12
And so it's like, it seems like there's this whole ecosystem.



Speaker:
00:27:14
Can you talk about your approach to, to networking and how that, that



Speaker:
00:27:18
is programmatic, if you think is?



Speaker:
00:27:20
Sure.



Speaker:
00:27:20
I do think it's programmatic, although it's not as organized as you make



Speaker:
00:27:24
it sound, you know, in my world.



Speaker:
00:27:27
But I remember very early in my career going to "networking events" and



Speaker:
00:27:32
I'd have my little stack of business cards in my little business card case.



Speaker:
00:27:35
And I dreaded it.



Speaker:
00:27:37
I didn't know what to say to anybody.



Speaker:
00:27:39
I felt awkward.



Speaker:
00:27:40
I felt like I didn't belong in the room.



Speaker:
00:27:42
What I came to realize over time is everyone else feels



Speaker:
00:27:45
the same way that's there.



Speaker:
00:27:47
It's just like going to a dinner party where you don't know anybody



Speaker:
00:27:50
or like everyone's really hoping they're going to have a good time



Speaker:
00:27:52
and, but they're nervous about it.



Speaker:
00:27:54
So I just decided, I think the way to do this is, and I learned this from



Speaker:
00:27:59
a book that I read by Peggy Noonan, who was Ronald Reagan's speechwriter.



Speaker:
00:28:05
And Peggy Noonan wrote his very famous, amazing speech after



Speaker:
00:28:09
the Challenger explosion and all those astronauts were killed.



Speaker:
00:28:13
She really became known for making him what was known as a great



Speaker:
00:28:17
communicator at the time, whether you believed in his politics or not,



Speaker:
00:28:20
he was a phenomenal communicator.



Speaker:
00:28:22
And Peggy Noonan had terrible stage fright.



Speaker:
00:28:23
And she talked about in her book how she overcame her stage fright because



Speaker:
00:28:28
she was asked to speak all over the place based on what she'd been doing.



Speaker:
00:28:31
How she overcame it was basically realizing that her



Speaker:
00:28:34
nerves were because she cared.



Speaker:
00:28:36
And if she framed it that way, then she kind of got herself to settle down.



Speaker:
00:28:40
So I totally have stolen that.



Speaker:
00:28:41
It helped so much.



Speaker:
00:28:42
And the other one was she didn't go stay in a green room before she spoke.



Speaker:
00:28:45
She went out and moved around the audience and just talked to people.



Speaker:
00:28:48
Like, why'd you come?



Speaker:
00:28:49
What are you hoping to hear?



Speaker:
00:28:51
Because they're nervous too.



Speaker:
00:28:52
They're nervous that you're gonna be terrible.



Speaker:
00:28:54
They're nervous that they're gonna waste their time.



Speaker:
00:28:56
So, by the time you get back on stage, you're like, oh my god,



Speaker:
00:28:58
I have friends in the audience.



Speaker:
00:28:59
I know now what they want to learn.



Speaker:
00:29:01
So that's kind of the way I think about networking.



Speaker:
00:29:03
If I go to any kind of event, there's like, just people



Speaker:
00:29:06
that I want to get to know.



Speaker:
00:29:07
And there's usually one or two people that I already know.



Speaker:
00:29:09
And then you can kind of just start finding out about people



Speaker:
00:29:12
and asking good questions, right?



Speaker:
00:29:14
Everyone loves to talk about themselves.



Speaker:
00:29:15
So that's the way that I think about it.



Speaker:
00:29:17
And I also think about, what's, what is this person looking for?



Speaker:
00:29:22
For example, if I talk to somebody at an investment firm - Costanoa



Speaker:
00:29:25
Ventures is a good example.



Speaker:
00:29:27
They were an investor in my last company and I got to know the partners there and



Speaker:
00:29:30
their marketing community really well.



Speaker:
00:29:32
And you know, what is it that they want?



Speaker:
00:29:33
They want talent, right?



Speaker:
00:29:34
And they want to know what the best practices are in the market.



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00:29:37
And so sometimes I'll just proactively share something with, you know, um,



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00:29:40
Martina Lochenko is a good buddy of mine and be like, hey, I just read this book.



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00:29:45
I think you'd be interested in it.



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00:29:46
So it's like in the back of my head, there's just always this little, who can I



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00:29:48
give a gift to that might be of interest?



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00:29:51
And then if I think about approaching somebody that I don't know, I'll



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00:29:55
just start kind of watching them.



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00:29:56
Some people call it stalking, but I just am interested in knowing,



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00:29:59
like, what are they publishing?



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00:30:00
What are they doing?



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00:30:01
Where have they been in their career?



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00:30:03
So that there can be like a human point of connection.



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00:30:05
And I find it just kind of easier to do the further along I go.



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00:30:09
Yeah, yeah.



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00:30:10
Do, do you have a model for staying in touch with all the



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00:30:12
people that you're meeting?



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00:30:14
Yeah, kind of.



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00:30:15
By the way, this isn't, I'm not talking about hundreds



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00:30:17
and hundreds of people, right?



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00:30:18
I'm talking about, there's probably, I don't know, several dozen that



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00:30:20
I'm in touch with regularly, and then there's like another little



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00:30:23
kind of ecosystem outside of that.



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00:30:25
You know, I don't think you can let more than a year go by without connecting



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00:30:28
with somebody that's in your network, and preferably sooner than that.



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00:30:31
But I'll just tell you a quick story.



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00:30:33
There was a product marketing manager on my team a couple



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00:30:36
companies ago who was just terrific.



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00:30:38
He was wonderful.



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00:30:39
And worked for me for two years, went on to another company.



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00:30:42
And when he did that, I was a reference for him.



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00:30:45
Like he was looking for something bigger.



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00:30:46
I'm like, I'll help you.



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00:30:48
So I was a reference for him there.



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00:30:49
And then I didn't hear from him for like three years.



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00:30:51
And then he called me up and said, "Hey, I'm looking at a new



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00:30:54
opportunity, will you be a reference?"



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00:30:55
And I'm like, I can't.



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00:30:57
I don't know anything about you anymore.



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00:30:59
You haven't kept in touch with me.



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00:31:01
You haven't told me what's going on.



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00:31:03
I can't comment on where you've been in the last three years.



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00:31:06
Like, you know, you should have told me because I can't really help you now.



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00:31:10
Oh, wow.



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00:31:10
And that was brutal, right?



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00:31:12
But it's how I felt.



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00:31:13
I was like, in the old days, I might've said, oh, sure.



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00:31:16
You know, I'll help you out.



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00:31:18
But I just felt disingenuous.



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00:31:19
It's like, I don't know anything about this person anymore.



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00:31:21
So I feel like there's, there's that piece of it too.



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00:31:24
Where you think about your own network and who's giving back to you, and who doesn't.



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00:31:28
You don't want to always be chasing everybody all the time.



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00:31:30
So I think cultivate some meaningful relationships where you really



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00:31:34
develop your almost board of advisors.



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00:31:36
I have a collection of people where, you know, when I'm looking



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00:31:39
at a job offer, I call them up and say, this is what they offered me.



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00:31:42
What do you think?



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00:31:44
What else should I ask for?



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00:31:45
You know, what should I be concerned about?



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00:31:47
And get that second point of view or third point of view.



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00:31:49
Super helpful.



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00:31:50
That's great.



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00:31:51
Can you talk, you don't have to give me names, but like,



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00:31:53
who's on this board of advisors?



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00:31:55
You know, more personal, more professional, other CMOs?



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00:31:58
Yeah, it's really former coworkers and bosses.



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00:32:01
Many of them are women.



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00:32:03
And that's because I have very much cultivated my female network



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00:32:06
because there just aren't as many of us in leadership roles.



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00:32:10
That's one of the reasons why I got involved in Women in Revenue



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00:32:12
with other people that you know.



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00:32:13
That community is turning into a really wonderful one for, not only



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00:32:17
networking, but also sharing advice.



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00:32:19
In fact, a little known fact that I would love your listeners to know about is in



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00:32:24
the Women in Revenue community, there's a Slack community and there's actually an



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00:32:27
advice, comp, and benefits channel within Slack that allows for anonymous posting.



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00:32:33
So you see in there frequently women will say, hey, I've just



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00:32:36
been offered this role as a VP of Marketing and a blah, blah, blah.



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00:32:40
Give some details.



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00:32:41
Does this offer seem appropriate?



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00:32:43
And I really like that a lot because there's so much, um, mystery around



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00:32:48
salary negotiations and what people get paid, and what they should ask for.



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00:32:51
And then there's lots of things in negotiation that you kind of



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00:32:55
learn along the way, like double trigger or negotiating a severance



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00:32:59
package before you even get there.



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00:33:02
That you just learn the hard way.



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00:33:04
And I feel like when you have a good network of advisors, they



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00:33:08
warn you about those things.



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00:33:10
Yeah, yeah.



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00:33:11
Great.



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00:33:12
I have two final questions for you.



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00:33:15
One, you talked about, you used the word "disingenuous" and part of having a



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00:33:19
strong network is being authentic, right?



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00:33:21
And showing up as yourself and trying to help other people, et cetera.



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00:33:25
I'm wondering, in many of the conversations I've been having,



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00:33:27
there's this aspect of like career trauma that is coming up.



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00:33:30
Yes!



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00:33:30
Yes.



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00:33:30
Where, you know, people are, again, they've had these short tenures.



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00:33:34
You know, CEOs are disappointed in marketing leaders.



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00:33:36
Marketing leaders can be disappointed in CEOs, et cetera.



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00:33:39
I guess, how real should a marketing leader be when they



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00:33:43
show up to their network?



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00:33:46
When is something like kind of too much information to share that you're



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00:33:51
having this, you know, traumatic situation, and when should people



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00:33:55
trust the authenticity of it?



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00:33:57
Because I often feel like



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00:33:57
- Oh, you're - I such a great question.



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00:34:00
Right?



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00:34:00
I often feel like, as a recruiter, you talked about recruiters being



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00:34:03
agents, but I often feel like people misconstrue, like they mistake a



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00:34:07
recruiter for a career coach or



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00:34:09
- For a therapist!



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00:34:10
Or for a therapist, right, exactly.



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00:34:12
Yet I do want to know who the authentic person is.



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00:34:15
I don't know.



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00:34:16
I don't have a particular incisive question, but do you, do you have



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00:34:19
- No, I know exactly what you're talking about.



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00:34:21
I know exactly what you're talking about.



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00:34:22
You and I were on a CMO club meeting like two or three weeks ago, and



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00:34:28
you were talking about, uh, career advice and networking and recruiting.



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00:34:32
And the topic came up in the group about this phrase, "career trauma."



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00:34:35
There was like almost 300 people on that call.



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00:34:38
And boy, that, the chat in that meeting just exploded.



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00:34:41
I know you saw it, too.



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00:34:43
And you know, there is no doubt that almost every executive I know, whether



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00:34:48
they're in marketing or not, has been through some sort of career trauma of



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00:34:52
one sort or another in their career.



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00:34:54
But especially in the last several years.



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00:34:57
You look at the hyper growth stage, COVID lockdown and all of the challenges that



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00:35:02
brought, all of the impossibility of even recruiting when unemployment was so low.



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00:35:07
And then the economy squeezes and everything gets downsized, right?



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00:35:10
So everything gets bloated and then it all crushes down.



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00:35:13
So lots and lots of people who lost their jobs and there's nothing



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00:35:17
scarier than losing your job, right?



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00:35:19
You've got a mortgage to pay.



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00:35:20
I remember that happened to me early in my career and I had a, I was a single



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00:35:24
mom to a young toddler and it was like, oh my god, what am I going to do?



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00:35:28
Like I, I need to make money.



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00:35:29
You know, you find yourself making decisions that you wouldn't



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00:35:33
normally make or settling for things you wouldn't normally do.



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00:35:37
I think that we all have to know ourselves and work on our confidence.



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00:35:43
And believe me, I've had several phases in my career where I made a



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00:35:46
mistake in deciding to join a business and then leaving that business and



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00:35:50
just feeling like, wow, how could I have blown that decision so badly?



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00:35:56
And then if it happens again, you're like, why?



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00:35:58
What happened?



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00:35:59
There's a woman on my team that we just hired who'd been laid off three



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00:36:02
different times in three different years.



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00:36:04
And she was just like, look, I thought I made good decisions, but those businesses



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00:36:07
were not what I thought they were.



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00:36:09
And that was okay with me to hear her say that.



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00:36:13
What you're talking about is how much vulnerability do we show?



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00:36:17
And there is no doubt that we need to project confidence, right?



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00:36:21
That is a huge part of what we bring to a business is projecting confidence as



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00:36:26
an executive, that we know what we're doing and that we are feeling good about



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00:36:30
the decisions that are going forward.



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00:36:32
So some of it is a little performative.



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00:36:33
I'm a huge fan of Amy Cuddy.



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00:36:35
I don't know if you know Amy Cuddy, the Power Posing?



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00:36:38
And I tell you, it's true.



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00:36:39
If you get yourself kind of up for the thing - for me, it



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00:36:43
means there's things I wear.



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00:36:45
There's kind of rituals that I do ahead of time to just get myself in



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00:36:50
the zone to be able to talk about my accomplishments, and also talk about



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00:36:54
why I might have left a business and, you know, what I'm, why I'm available



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00:36:58
currently and that kind of stuff.



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00:36:59
And you just, you need a good, smooth talk track and you need, you don't



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00:37:03
need to say a heck of a lot, right?



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00:37:05
I think sometimes people tend to over explain circumstances in a way



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00:37:10
that makes the person they're talking to really wonder what happened.



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00:37:13
Like, wow, you know, this is a lot of drama going on here.



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00:37:17
Is this somebody that is going to bring that to a business?



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00:37:20
So I think trying to think about what happened in your past dispassionately



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00:37:24
and in a business-like fashion.



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00:37:26
And just knowing that there are cycles in businesses and as a



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00:37:31
marketing leader, it is very rare to be somewhere five, seven, ten years.



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00:37:36
It's super rare.



Speaker:
00:37:37
I was a VP of Marketing, corporate marketing, at BusinessObjects.



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00:37:40
I was there for eleven years.



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00:37:41
That was unusual.



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00:37:43
And it's okay to be going to the next thing.



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00:37:46
Or to decide, hey, I'm think I'm interested in a company that's



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00:37:49
slightly bigger, or I'm interested in a company that's more international,



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00:37:53
or whatever the case may be.



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00:37:54
And you deliberately make that choice and transition out and in.



Speaker:
00:37:58
Yeah, yeah, that's a great perspective.



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00:38:00
Thank you.



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00:38:01
I know we are running short on time.



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00:38:02
So one final question for you.



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00:38:04
I like to ask most of the people I interview this.



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00:38:06
When you interview a marketer for your team, a marketing leader to



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00:38:10
work for you, is there a particular question you like to ask them?



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00:38:13
I love to ask, what didn't I ask you that you want me to know?



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00:38:18
It's one of my favorites.



Speaker:
00:38:20
It usually catches people off guard.



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00:38:22
So I find by doing that, I get a little insight into the real them.



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00:38:28
They become less performative.



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00:38:30
I can't stand performative behavior.



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00:38:32
It drives me nuts.



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00:38:33
Like I, I just kind of have a nose for when people are posturing or,



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00:38:37
you know, using flowery language or something that they might've



Speaker:
00:38:40
pulled out of AI as a good answer.



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00:38:42
And I almost always hear something that is more on the personal



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00:38:46
side than the professional side.



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00:38:47
I'll learn that somebody, uh, just took up running marathons.



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00:38:52
I learned once that a person that I hired had lost a hundred pounds, and



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00:38:56
how meaningful that that was for them and how it had changed their life.



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00:39:00
I've learned about people that, uh, had some real gritty thing,



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00:39:05
gritty lessons that they've learned.



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00:39:06
Someone told me, you know, I, I'm here to remove the stigma



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00:39:09
of being a teenage mother.



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00:39:11
You know, I had my son when I was seventeen, and now he's graduating



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00:39:14
high school and I'm really proud of being able to do all that.



Speaker:
00:39:18
Some people have told me that they were first generation college graduates



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00:39:21
and what that meant in their family.



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00:39:23
And I love that content, right?



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00:39:26
It just tells you, gives you this kind of insight into them.



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00:39:30
I'll often tell people that, my first job was a sales development



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00:39:33
rep when I was in high school.



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00:39:34
And I did that job for four years before it was ever even called that.



Speaker:
00:39:37
How much that taught me.



Speaker:
00:39:39
I'll tell them that I'm the oldest of seven children in a multiracial family.



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00:39:43
And that is like at the foundation of who I am and how I show up as a leader.



Speaker:
00:39:48
So that's my favorite one.



Speaker:
00:39:50
Yeah, that's great!



Speaker:
00:39:51
Thank you.



Speaker:
00:39:52
And I love how it dovetails with the whole trauma and vulnerability thing.



Speaker:
00:39:55
You know, like I think maybe vulnerability is not necessarily



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00:39:59
sharing all the dirty laundry.



Speaker:
00:40:01
It's kind of, it can be something, you know, personal and authentic



Speaker:
00:40:05
and non-professional related.



Speaker:
00:40:07
Yeah, and my advice is just work on your story.



Speaker:
00:40:09
And I've done this with some of my advisors.



Speaker:
00:40:11
It's like, how do I explain this story of where, why I went to that company, what I



Speaker:
00:40:16
did when I was there, and how I'm leaving?



Speaker:
00:40:18
And you know, that, that can be very helpful, just to kind of



Speaker:
00:40:22
talk that through your sort of elevator pitch about a scenario.



Speaker:
00:40:25
Yes.



Speaker:
00:40:25
Yes.



Speaker:
00:40:26
I love that.



Speaker:
00:40:27
I think that's great feedback for people.



Speaker:
00:40:29
Just keep telling it.



Speaker:
00:40:30
And as you practice, you get better.



Speaker:
00:40:31
And as you practice, people give you feedback on, Oh, this part was boring.



Speaker:
00:40:34
This part was interesting.



Speaker:
00:40:36
Or this resonated and, or stop here.



Speaker:
00:40:38
And yeah, that's, that's great.



Speaker:
00:40:40
Fabulous.



Speaker:
00:40:41
Well, Tracy, thank you so much for sharing all this awesome wisdom on



Speaker:
00:40:44
working with recruiters, working with your network, working with your kind of



Speaker:
00:40:47
insides, and all of this with The Get.



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00:40:49
Appreciate it.



Speaker:
00:40:51
I really appreciate the offer to come and talk to you and talk to your listeners.



Speaker:
00:40:54
I'd love to be helpful to anyone and would love to connect.



Speaker:
00:40:57
Thank you.



Speaker:
00:40:58
That was Tracy Eiler, CMO at OpenSesame.



Speaker:
00:41:01
Now, think about what three things you can do to leverage your network in new ways.



Speaker:
00:41:06
Next time on The Get, you'll hear from me and from another guest.



Speaker:
00:41:10
Don't miss it.



Speaker:
00:41:11
Thanks for listening to The Get.



Speaker:
00:41:13
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.



Speaker:
00:41:14
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and



Speaker:
00:41:18
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.



Speaker:
00:41:20
We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top



Speaker:
00:41:24
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.



Speaker:
00:41:26
If you liked this episode, please share it.



Speaker:
00:41:28
For more about The Get, visit TheGetPodcast.com.



Speaker:
00:41:32
To learn more about my executive search practice, which focuses on recruiting the



Speaker:
00:41:36
make-money marketing leaders rather than the make-it-pretty ones, follow me on



Speaker:
00:41:39
LinkedIn or visit TheConnectiveGood.Com.



Speaker:
00:41:42
The Get is produced by Evo Terra of Simpler Media Productions.