My name is Liam Wickham, and I am the founder of game production. com, which is where we seek to enable games industry professionals to plan better, lead better, and stop the crunch culture. Through building a community of support, knowledge, and training. So we are trying something a bit different today.
This is the first of a series of interviews with recruitment professionals in the games industry. Our goal is to find out what recruiters seek out in potential game producers from associate to EP and beyond. From product manager to project manager. We also want to know what's changed during coronavirus and how they see recruitment changing, moving forwards.
So today we're very, very fortunate indeed to have Simon, Simon Hope from Aardvark, uh, join us to talk about this. He's been in the industry for years and years. He will tell us, but he's been at Aardvark for about 140 years and I think was One of the original founders of it, uh, but we'll, we'll come to that.
But Aardvark, uh, I have, I've got a great deal of time for, uh, Aardvark Swift. One of the handful of rock solid game recruitment companies in the UK. Um, one of the first that I know of to start a game production specific newsletter. With jobs advice and relevant news, which I've always found very useful Along with the recent podcast so recruitment director simon joins us.
He handed over the production recruitment reigns So max who sadly can't join us because he's looking for a house Simon's going to wax lyrical about recruitment. Good morning, sir. How are you? I'm good I'm good. Thanks. Liam. I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Well, I'm it's You You know, it's a real honor, mate.
And, and, um, I know we've talked quite a bit in the past, but, um, you know, genuine words about Aardvark. You, you guys have done a great job and I really appreciate the support you've given producers and the rest of us. Um, so I've just said a little bit about you and about Aardvark, but you want to talk a little bit about it yourself?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't one of the original founders. Uh, I mean, I, in, in 1989 I was still, uh, kind of like, probably pri well, primary school, so I was probably still doing, uh, basic maths and vocabulary at that point. So, uh, but yeah, a around since 89, uh. So we were possibly the first specialist games recruitment agency, uh, certainly in the UK.
I mean, obviously, uh, you know, based in, we're based in Rotherham, which is just near Sheffield, which obviously you've got the kind of Gremlin Infogrames kind of heritage there. And that's kind of how it started. Now the original founder, a guy called Stephen Lloyd Davis, he kind of started, I think he was an IT recruiter and by chance got a call one day from one of the, from kind of Gremlin and saw there was a bit of a niche and hey presto, he was a games recruiter all of a sudden.
So, uh, but yeah, so I mean, I, I've been at Aardvark, uh, we are three days off my 14th anniversary. The 26th of June, 2006. What a, what a, what a dark day. I mean, what a great day that was. What a great day that was. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I joined straight from university. So I'm, I'm born and bred in Sheffield.
Uh, lived here all my life. Went to Hallam. Uh, did law, which is completely, You know, useless when it comes to useful, useful. Yeah, obviously every time we get a contract, uh, it always comes to me. Uh, so it's useful in some circumstances, but yeah, I mean, I, uh, I've done sales and stuff when I was in university and, uh, you know, work for last minute.
com. And by chance, my CV made its way to monster and made its way. Into the, uh, the sites of, uh, well, Ian, who's obviously the MD now, and, you know, and, and, you know, the rest is history, as they say, so, uh, yeah, it's been a, that's a pop, there's a pop of history of us and me.
So, but it's interesting, isn't it?
Because, um, If you'll forgive me, most recruiters are scum. Um, and I mean that in the nicest way. Um, but, you know, I've been in IT, I was like an IT contractor for years, and they really are horrible people on the whole. But I've been really struck by, um, you, and I've got just genuinely nice people. And you, you, you go the extra mile.
And, um, I'm hoping, That you know people will realize a little bit about that as we start talking in more detail about Um, particularly production things like that. Um, but it's uh, I guess for you it makes a big difference getting to know people and having relationships with them right compared to just yeah Toronto placement.
I mean one of the
cliches that I always use i'm sure my People like Max and, and the rest of the team get really bored of hearing his, uh, it's, it's all about the long game, right? You know, I think a lot of recruiters look at how can I make some money off someone this week? But the games industry is about.
You know, I don't, I mean, again, I've not worked in other industries, so, but I certainly the games industry is about building long term relationships, building trust and kind of doing, doing what you say you're going to do for people, you know, if you make a promise, so you, you know, can make a commitment, you do your best to kind of follow and honor that.
So that's, that's all you can do. That's all you can do really. And hopefully along the line, you either, you know, help someone find their next job or. You know, we were kind of they become one day become a hiring manager themselves and you help them fill some roles on the team. And that's that's what it's been about for me for, you know, kind of what, 14 years or so now and across all the different areas of development I've worked in.
And yeah, that's what I told the team at Arvark, you know, you know, yeah,
that's
simple as that
really clearly works as an approach. Um, It's, it's more human that way, isn't it? And people say that the games industry is very small, and that you should be careful of the relationships you form, and, and, and this longevity approach that you just mentioned.
And of course, the games industry, back when you started, back when I started too, it was pretty small. I wouldn't say it was so small now, but it's, I think, It still feels that way, doesn't it? That it's so interconnected.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit like where I live in Sheffield is that it's a, it's a big city, but it feels like, it feels like a small place because everyone's so friendly and, you know, people take the time, uh, to kind of ask how you are.
And I think it's very much like the games industry, you know, it's a global industry these days. And a lot of the, You know, the larger developers of older, you know, you, you kind of EAs and they've shared studios and your ages and all that sort of stuff. They spawned smaller studios who have grown as well, but those kind of, those figures are still there, you know, that have always been there and you know, the people who've, you know, were 14 years ago were, you know, kind of QA testers and now senior producers, exec producers.
And yeah, I think it. People are always quite happy to talk to you about as well, because I think we're quite lucky in games that we're working in an industry that most people kind of would see as a hobby, you know, I guess, you know, people love to play video games, right? Everyone I know loves playing video games to varying degrees.
And we kind of get to talk about, uh, get to talk about this, this kind of topic on a daily basis. So people are more than happy to talk Yeah, that way we're quite fortunate, so it's good.
Yeah, I think so. And so, do you mind if we do a bit of deep diving around the place? I know I sent you a list of questions.
Yeah, of course. Yeah, no problem. Just to keep you on your toes. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what I've been realising recently, and I probably already knew it at one level, but through doing these podcasts, um, I've realised that it's very difficult to leap into production out of college, right? It's much more common, it seems, that people have some games industry experience first and then shift into production.
Now, as a recruiter, what's your view of that? What's your perceptions? Yeah, I mean, I've seen people,
you know, I think when it comes to, uh, college students, you know, I think that, I think that when it comes to occurring in the games industry, They would expect most people to have gone to university from college.
You know, I mean, you know, this, uh, apprenticeships in video games. I know there's a few people trying to get off at lower levels, but you would have to go to college from college university, uh, to get a relevant degree. But I think that, I think the most, the most important thing that I found that people who go to university and.
show their kind of passion for the subjects and not just, they don't just go to university, go to lecturers, do the coursework, expect to get a job. They actively seek out opportunities to, you know, kind of get involved in, you know, and drive, you know, from a production standpoint, into projects, you know, within their circle of friends, because you should be quite fortunate that you should know a few, uh, artists, animators, game designers, programmers on your course.
And I mean, Take that opportunity to kind of immerse yourself in that challenge of developing an indie project. And I think it just, and then, you know, if you've got that, get involved in some more kind of professionally controlled competitions, you know, whether that's Search for a Star, you know, Dare to be Digital, but that.
The main thing is that because everyone is coming into video games is generally passionate about it. It's not just showing people that you like playing video games, but you are passionate about developing your career and you will go the extra mile to seek out the challenges that are there and they can be and they can be found within an education setting.
Uh, that don't just involved doing what you're told by your lecturers and, you know, your course tutors, which is the biggest mistake you could, uh, you could kind of ever, ever take going into a university setting is to just do that and expect to walk, you know, not get involved in anything and expect to walk straight into a job.
So they just, it just doesn't work like that, unfortunately.
Yeah. So that's very interesting. Um, I mean, you mentioned passion and getting involved in indie projects, et cetera. Um, but if we're looking at, say, the first leap into, say, an associate producer role, would you say that you get many successful applicants of, for people who have done what you have just said, run indie projects, et cetera, or would you say most of them are already somewhere within the games industry in QA or whatever?
Yeah. I mean,
I'd
probably say 80 to 90 percent of
people are of the latter. Uh, I mean, there are, again, there aren't that many opportunities. Uh, from a, if we're talking about production in particular, to get involved in a, a production, you know, kind of project competition project environment that's controlled, uh, because obviously that's a professional, it's a controlled environment.
You know, you have a set budget, you know, set timeframes, you have a certain number of people on your team that you, you manage schedule for, et cetera. And there's not that much outside, maybe dare to be digital and a few others. that allow that from a production standpoint. Uh, so what you find is that, you know, studios will tend to want people who, now they, they kind of know, they trust because they work in QA and their own particular studio, or have, you know, two to three years with, you know, a good proportion that come in at a senior QA level where that particular person has experience of the production cycle.
Again, professional experience, because nothing, unfortunately, makes up for that sort of experience. And it's difficult, you know, there's always going to be, you know, when entry level roles, there's always going to be a leap of faith. So as a candidate, you've got to do as much as you can to kind of take that Second guessing away from hiring managers, take that doubt away by, you know, again, going the extra mile to, you know, to corral course mates, to, to make a project and develop it and release it on the app store or Google, you know, Google store, get involved in putting a team into there to be digital or any other competitions like that, uh, getting involved in stuff like search for a star.
Uh, because until you've got that experience, there's always going to be a question mark. So. You know, so again, it's that passion. It's that passion thing. If you do that, wear it in and you learn lessons from it. Uh, you know, because there's going to be a lot of failures, you know, uh, as a, as a junior candidate, but understand those lessons and it's going to give you the best chance, right?
It's going to give you the best chance.
So, thank you. And I think that's, that's certainly what I'm hearing from others is that to climb up the production ladder in the first place, You've got to be in there. You've got to already be in there. And you're saying like 80 to 90 percent and I can see why. And of course, if you're just doing like a coding weekend to make a game, no one needs a producer.
They just need people who can make a game to get on with it. So it makes total sense what you're saying. If you are looking at people approaching you trying to find new producers, is it mostly the producer level upwards? People have already proven themselves.
Yeah, I mean, I'd say so. I mean, obviously, as I said.
When you are making that step up from, uh, in a larger studio or when you're making that step up into an associate producer role, you know, a lot of the time, if, you know, so long as studios have got their own in house QA teams, they've probably got an earmark of someone at senior league QA level who you.
Then, you know, you want to promote, uh, you know, kind of, uh, development within your own team and that culture of developing people. So people will often look internally, first of all. Uh, so when they come to me, they want people who I've got, yeah, that are beginning to develop a track record of, you know, worked with projects of a particular size, a particular nature.
Uh, and I get it. You know, I've released proven projects and they've worked on the full development cycle. So that obviously then stands to reason that they're going to have to have for a longer, you know, for a bigger project, it's going to be two to three years, right? A big development cycle on a console game.
So, so yeah, that's generally the case, Liam, I'd say. Absolutely.
And I'm, I kind of personally interested because I can see how the industry is changing, but personally interested in looking at mobile game development versus, if you will, PC console, because There's a lot of difference between them. And I'm wondering, do you, do you see a big difference?
Like, do you actually place producers in, in a purely mobile game team, or would there more likely be product managers or product owners in there?
Well, yeah, I mean, that's the. That's the split, right, when it comes to, uh, mobile in particular, is that it's a bit like, you see, I mean, again, the old, when you're looking at old school console development, your producer used to be almost the kind of, the, the, the quality holder as well, you know, it wasn't just the project manager, but now that roles firmly with creative directors.
Producers are very much kind of project team managers, managing that, you know, looking after the culture internally in that particular kind of unit of what they're looking at on their team or whatever. But in mobile, particularly the vast, vast majority now, uh, you know, free to play live ops. Uh, so you've got two different angles.
You've got the delivery and management of the team, but then you've got the monetization. You know, of the project, because if it isn't monetizing, uh, or if it's not making any money, uh, the project gets knocked on the head, right? So, yeah, you've got that difference between a project manager, a producer, is going to be the project manager, they're going to deliver the project, uh, manage the team, the budgets, all that sort of stuff, initially, uh, and then, obviously, post launch.
There's probably going to be anything from weekly fortnightly to monthly updates, which then present a different problem altogether, because you've gone from managing it on a mobile game, it could be up to 18 months, but probably more like kind of six to nine months. development cycle, uh, to then you're doing smaller fortnightly updates, which, you know, mean that you're running kind of two weeks sprint back to back to back to back.
So, you know, they've, you kind of tend to focus on that as a producer, whereas you, you're kind of product. Manager would be the, what some people would call a product owner. So would they be involved in, you know, working with the design team and the production team to make the often data driven decisions that, you know, determine the, the kind of the, I guess, the future course of the product and help it make money and.
be successful and keep you going for as long as possible, really. So, yeah, I mean, it's, so it's a completely different skill set that has been, you know, has come around from the, the move to kind of free to play certainly in the last probably six or seven years. I think, yeah, I think before that it didn't really exist, but yeah, it's come from You know, kind of, uh, apps development and tech and stuff like that.
And yeah, it's now completed a job title and different, different discipline,
of course. So, uh, yeah, I think there's some snootiness around as well, PC console versus mobile and all that. And I think that's, that's normal and common, but, um, I think it's beginning to disappear a little, but certainly they are different roles.
And, uh, The role of project management, like you say, and the role of agile training, because everyone seems every producer and their dog seems to be a scrum master these days. But I think you can see, like you just said, with software development for mobile gaming, it makes perfect sense to have a wholly agile team with product owners, et cetera.
But I, I challenge most games companies who are doing. PC console to find a product that normally not normally what you, as you said, that they're like your creative directors and your lead producers and stuff like that. They, they play that role. Yeah. Um, it's very interesting. And I guess that leads to my next question, which is, um, what are the most difficult production roles to actually place?
Uh,
I think either, what I mean, either the, uh, the product roles, you know, the kind of product manager roles, uh, or probably in a console environment, probably a technical producer, uh, for people that have them because, you know, on the product side for mobile games, uh, you want someone who's, you know, delivered a end to end successful product and monetized it.
Uh, so it's. It's a very crowded marketplace with a lot of, uh, a lot of the more successful games, uh, at some of the bigger developers, uh, probably being successful because they have deeper pockets and can buy, maybe can buy users and, or can migrate users from their other already successful products, these ones.
So, a product manager, a small developer is really having to work twice as hard to, to kind of monetize a game and, you know, kind of fit the key producer base and, and yeah, you know, kind of make it pay as it were. And then on the console side, you know, technical producers, it's, it's just a difficult one because, you know, you've got to find a candidate who's got experience in software development or as a, you know, programmer, ideally, who's got that desire to move towards a project management role, who has excellent communication skills, which, you know, kind of, uh, isn't always, you know, something you'd maybe find in a, a programmer, you know, it's very much about.
You know, the code and being, you know, kind of synced and doing your job and all that sort of stuff. And then you've got to be interested and pretty decent in scheduling as well and kind of maintaining that link between the, uh, the programming team and the rest of the development team. So it's a very, very difficult role.
It's a very difficult role because you're looking for someone who's got all, you know, kind of talents from both sides of the fence, really, and somebody who wants to do it. So, yeah, I think they're the two difficult ones, you know, in the console and mobile environment, you know, technical producer and product manager.
Yeah. And that's very interesting because I was going to ask you this at the beginning, but I'm glad I waited. So what do you think are the traits of a successful producer? You mentioned passion earlier, and you've talked about a few things, but If you're looking at chatting to a person, getting to know him a little bit, seeing if you can place them, what stands out when you go, good, they've got those traits.
Yeah. Yeah. I
mean,
I think one of
the, I think the main, one of the main ones, I mean, I've got maybe a handful, but I kind of got excellent communication skills. Uh, I think that the problem I find that a lot of people have, is that they. A particular interview stage, which is the reason why people often don't get the job is they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk.
And I think the, you know, producer or good project manager has to be succinct. And, but then able to go into detail when asked and when required. So it's a difficult one, uh, because if you go off on a tangent, uh, in your project. It's going to cost you a lot of time and money. So they're looking for people who've got the kind of communication skills that would lead them to be a successful manager, a person manager, people manager.
Uh, I think resilience as well, because I think you're going to, not only are you going to be the person that probably takes a lot of work for a high developer, you're going to be that person who takes a lot of, uh, maybe stern feedback from the publisher and studio management. Uh, but you have to have that resilience that you can't get kind of get down to yourself because you've got to, you know, you've got to take that feedback on board and.
You know, make sure that the team are delivering at the same time. So you've got to, it's kind of got to be water off a duck's back, but kind of be able to get to the point. Uh, another big one that I often find is a bit of a negative when people don't have this, is that they're a good team player because, well, you have to manage a team, but.
I think that I find that a lot of people who've got loads of experience and they're good at self promotion tend to say I a lot. They don't say we, because it takes a team to deliver a game, not a person. So I think that, and that also says a lot about how well you can foster that kind of culture in the team as well.
So that's important. I think, you know, being a team player and, and, you know, kind of put in the, put in the project before your own personal needs. And again, it's just simply finding out, it's something you can kind of cut through the noise as well. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of noise, a lot of different dependencies within a, a games development studio, you know, particularly if you work for hire and you, you know, working for a publisher.
So you've got to be able to kind of see the risks, uh, deal with the important issues and kind of keep the team and project on track, really. So,
that being succinct. That's really interesting, mate. And, and, uh, As a follow up to that, because I've been writing some leadership articles recently to just sort of point out when you, when you move up the chain of command, so to speak, like when you try and be a producer, let's say you're in QA and you move to be an associate producer and then you move up the chain and eventually you could be like a studio owner, right?
Because producers tend to be natural leaders, and they tend to be expected to lead things. And you look at the traits, and the point I was trying to make in these articles was, you know what, each time you leap to the next level, your conversation changes, your stakeholders change, the way you have to deal with things change.
So let's just carry on talking about what you said about these traits. So how do you think they change? Let's say from a producer to a lead producer or an executive producer. How is that leap made when you're looking at recruiting people? Do you advise them about that, that shift and how they have to communicate differently?
Yeah, I mean, because I think as an associate producer or a kind of producer, kind of, It was in that kind of mid level bracket, you know, maybe they've got, you know, kind of three to five years experience. I think a lot of your communication is probably going to be, uh, down to the team and alongside, you know, kind of the stakeholders are at your level.
Whereas as soon as you start to move up to senior EP, uh, you know, kind of production director, studio head, you are, you know, You kind of then, you all really are the leader in those sorts of positions, so you've got to be able to communicate up and down and, you know, alongside to your kind of peers as well in different teams because, you know, when you're a senior producer in EP, you are then in higher level meetings with studio management, other directors, tech, design, art, uh, and you've got to be able to manage those different relationships and dependencies where when you're a junior producer in AP, mid level, You are, your task is to schedule, is to manage the team, uh, and manage, you know, kind of maybe the risk and stuff like that.
So I think certainly, I think you've got to be adept at, you know, kind of, again, I don't, I wouldn't say not, not kind of taking bull. But having the conviction to kind of stand your ground when it comes to important decisions and having a, have an opinion, which by that point is backed up with experience, right?
Uh, so yeah, I think it does change, you know, it just, I guess that's, it's the same with any job, right? You know, your experience gives you often a more rounded opinion and, and, you know, Things pop up. You don't have to ask for help, you know, very often because being out again, but at the same time, you know, when you do need help.
So, uh, yeah, it's a difficult one, but I guess it's the same for many jobs.
Yeah, I think that's true. I think that leap. From stage to stage fundamentally changes what's expected of you, but no one particularly tells you what that is. And I guess it's interesting with your position and looking at the games industry.
It's my opinion, walking outside, that there's no When you have those emerging leaders who might, say, be in charge of Say a QA leader wants to become a producer. There's no Sort of there's no training course. There's no support necessarily that says oh you're going into into a leadership track now And we're going to support you And I guess you know there is in other industries, and I'm just wondering do you do you see that?
There should be do you think that there should be more support to climb up the production ladder? internally
Uh, it's a difficult one because, uh, I mean, obviously I'm not a producer in a game studio, so I kind of don't know what individual cases do. But you've got a lot of gossip. Like maybe, maybe I have made, maybe it's just a kiss and tell.
Is this what it is? But, uh, I think that, I think it's difficult. I think that that's why people often look towards people like myself, you know, when, after they've released a, uh, a project, uh, often, you know, a longer project, two, three years, because. I think that the needs of the studio dictate how fast people can, uh, kind of move up upwards trajectory wise internally, right?
Because if you've got a studio of 50 people and you're the producer and you do a great project, uh, but that studio is never going to move to a two project studio. So the next project is 50 people, 40 people, and you just need one or two producers and you're seeing it. sticks around, uh, you're not going to, you're to progress, right?
Because it's, there's just no room for you to do so. That's why I often find that, uh, people kind of either move and move upwards, you know, it's, it can be difficult, it can be difficult because again, I would say that, If you've not worked with someone before and you're looking to move from a producer to a senior, we've just spoke about the different kind of dependencies that you have and stuff like that.
You haven't necessarily got the experience of that, but what they might do is move upwards in role to a slightly smaller studio. Uh, to get that experience in a slightly smaller team or move to an environment where the studios are two projects, a free project studio, or it's part of a wider organization.
So that kind of side, an up, up move is possible within the next kind of 12 to 18 months. So, but yeah, I mean, it's difficult, right? Because I think you, you're dictated by the success of the company you work for, uh, and I think, again, it's, it's circumstances that can often dictate that. So it would be nice, uh, for people to get more leadership development and larger organizations that does happen.
But I guess when budgets are tight and obviously in the post COVID world that we might post COVID as everyone says post COVID, but who knows when post COVID may be that budgets will and, you know, probably get tighter. So, uh, Yeah, it's still going to remain pretty difficult, uh, for studios to invest large amounts of money in, in leadership development, really.
I think they just rely on people gaining the experience and the, the kind of the support from their peers.
Uh, you know. Well, thank goodness for game production. com. Well, exactly, exactly. It's a good job we got
that.
So we talked a little bit about, um, what's going on now, how, how the industry is shifting, etc.
But if we look forwards. Um, and we'll talk about COVID separately, right? But if we look at how the industry is shifting, I, I read a book, um, a little while back about game production, um, that was written 15 years ago, I think, one of the few, and, and when you look at that now and you, you see how things have shifted, it's like you were saying this, this, There's, of course, there's mobile, but there's also that lots more games now go live and stay live and have DLC and you need that live ops experience, et cetera, and that knowledge about how to keep producing content.
Yeah, even in a console environment, yeah, so. If you look at the future and you look at how things are shifting. What advice would you give producers about where to make sure they keep focused and understand what's coming?
Yeah, I think that, I think one of the things I'd say in terms of, uh, post COVID or whatever is I think you've always got to be prepared to be flexible.
Uh, you know, certainly in the more formative years of your career, in that first, I don't know, five, six years, when it comes to where you might place yourself in the world. Because I think you are, you kind of have to go where the projects are or where the opportunities are, because we've just spoke about that.
So, uh, I think you've got to be prepared to do that. Uh, I think, you know, it just kind of, it's a pure numbers game. If you look at a game development team, there's more artists, there are more programmers, uh, often more QA, uh, you know, kind of testers than there are producers. So the opportunities are often, uh, you know, they're more, the big ones are more scarce.
So you have to be prepared to be flexible and move around. But I think that, you know, I think you've always got to, again, keep your eye on, uh, there's, there's an interest, it's going to be interesting, you know, if studios do adopt a more kind of remote focus or, um, you know, a, a in, in studio slash remote balance for their teams, uh, that you've got to keep your focus on people.
management, team development, and that culture side as well, because I think it's going to be a lot more difficult. There's going to be a lot more, that's a real challenge for producers because you're not just responsible, you know, as an artist, as a programmer, as an animator, designer, you're responsible for your own, own work.
But as a producer, you're responsible for 20, 30, 40 people's work workflows and 40 people's happiness. So there's a big challenge post COVID for producers, really. I think that's going to come from that, you know, kind of team development, team culture and that sort of stuff. And managing people's time, you know, when they're not in the studio.
And yeah, I think it's going to be a real interesting one, a real interesting one and a big challenge for a lot of people. So something to think about now and get your head around it.
Yeah, that's great. And so let's move on to that because I was, uh, I was looking at these editorials that you guys have been putting up and there was one there, which was the health check of the industry.
So James Barron stated at the end of March, which obviously is a while back now. Many studios have opted to adopt remote hiring and remote working processes during COVID 19 in ways that could far outlast the pandemic itself, especially if they prove more efficient and accessible to candidates and businesses globally.
So, how's that view looking now?
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think a lot's happened since March. I think March was the last time I had a haircut. So, uh, there's certainly been a lot happened since then. It looks like it, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, but, uh, I think it's been a really interesting one. I mean, we're kind of, Currently in the midst of a, another health check at the minute.
And, uh, I mean that the one you've discussed there, we, it was, uh, we, we spoke to around about 120 of our clients and, and tried to get an update on what their thoughts were going forward. And then I think there was initially a lot of shock around, Oh my gosh, how do we transition 20, 40, 200 people to work in remotely?
A lot of skepticism about that because Particularly in the UK, the UK market is generally Particularly the console market characterized by work for hire. Uh, so there's the majority of developers like that. So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of skepticism from publishers and stuff like that, who, who want their trade secrets kept by lock and key in the studio or on secure servers.
So, but that, I think that's softened, uh, probably through need rather than desire. Uh, and I'm not entirely sure that we're going to see a, uh, change to a completely remote working environment, to be honest, because again, there's a whole lot of problems in question marks that are posed behind health and wellbeing of staff when they're isolated in their own offices, uh, developing a team culture and just managing a, a large project with big budgets, uh, when candidates, uh, uh, staff developers are around, you know, based in multiple locations around the world often.
But I think what you might see I think, you know, from speaking to a few developers in the last kind of week or so, is that they are for the particularly hard to fill roles. And again, you know what I'm going to say, it's going to be programmers. It's going to be the, yeah, it's going to be like the, the, you kind of tech programmers, your graphics, your animation, tech artists.
They are, some studios are now saying, right, well, we are prepared for this position to be remote fully. Right. So you've got more than you can have that. Uh, but on the other hand, I think what you might find is, uh, approached the, you know, maybe like someone like a Hutch, for instance, uh, where they do, uh, a couple of days for people who want to, Work from home on set days, you know, I hope you know, do I think Tuesday, Thursday, where everyone, if he wants to work from home on those particular days, but you've got that Monday, Wednesday, Friday touch point, that's never too far away, uh, where, you know, that everyone's going to be in and you can catch it with people.
And, uh, you know, you can make sure that, you know, kind of the meetings and things that need to happen, happen. Uh, so you're never going to lose that kind of. That kind of feeling of culture and being part of a team, which I think is so important. Uh, it's, yeah, I think that's, that's what you'll find, I think.
So, but it's going to be interesting. Going to be interesting.
It is. And I think, you know, I remember, I mean, I'm quite lucky really, or unlucky in that I've spent quite a lot of years. Doing remote working or being in charge of virtual teams that are based all over the place and, and all the different time zones stuff.
So when people started doing remote work and I was like, Oh, okay. So, you know, I know a couple of the best practices around here and whatever. And I started watching it and looking at articles. But what I found recently is that there's a lot of talk around mental health now. And it strikes me what you said earlier about the producer has a.
As has a responsibility to care for his or her team. And I think it's very difficult to care remotely. the same degree, isn't it? And you look at mental health issues, you look at things that are coming out now where people are going, well, I kind of, I start as soon as I'm in the front of the computer, I don't really stop working because you know, somebody just gets me and sends me a message and it's at night.
And I think, well, I'm at my laptop. Might as well keep working for a while. And I, and I think that's, It's quite a dangerous cycle to have to break, isn't it? And if you're a producer, that's something you need to be aware of. Definitely. Because I think that, I think if you want to
work from home, I think you've got to be prepared to have that environment where you've got a separate space.
That is workspace, you know, it's a separate room. It's just, you know, not in your kitchen, not as permanently as I'm doing in my front room. Uh, this is great temporary for, for one or two days, but you need that environment at home where you can, you go into that room, it's work. And then you shut that door, you know, at 6 PM or whatever, because yeah, the last thing you want is.
You know, someone feeling compelled because their laptop is on their knee on the sofa at the side of them to start work at seven and not finish until seven, eight o'clock at night, because what you'll do is that for a short term, you'll get a lot more productivity out of that person. But over the long term that just nose dives.
And what you'll find is that you'll find that, uh, If the wrong sort of pressures are put on people that this is the new standard that you're setting is that they'll probably just be upset, they'll leave and then you're, you're faced with a big hole. So yeah, I think there's a lot of challenges to managing people in that sort of environment permanently that, you know, people need to be using, like I've said, producers need to start considering really.
And. You know, when people are asking for full time, I want to work full time remotely, you've got to, that's got to be a two way conversation because it's there, you know, it's the person's responsibility not to put themselves in that situation as well where, oh, I'm just going to be working in my living room because again, a lot of games developers, you know, at entry level, entry level trainees, they're going to be young people.
They can't afford five bedroom houses. They're going to be in. studio apartments. They're all like you, aren't they? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They're my two bedroom cottages at the minute. So, uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah, you know, they're going to be in the studio apartments in, you know, kind of, uh, commuter belts in, you know, around London.
And they just can't afford to put that environment into place. You know, it's too expensive. So I think. And again, there's so, you know, I think there's so many bad habits that you can also pick up at home that if you go straight from being a junior person to working at home, there's so many distractions and with all the will in the world that, you know, you go into a games development studio and you take away those distractions and you develop that culture.
Uh, and that Is I think still going to be the way to go. I think that, uh, you know, giving people more flexibility is fantastic. And I think that's the right thing to do because people have proven that they can do it once they've reached a certain threshold of experience, whether that's 12 months, 18 months, two years, I think great, you know, a couple of days a week where, you know, they can work, uh, whatever that's condensed hours, you know, work for a lunch.
That's great. But I think you need to be at some FaceTime, you know, in studio with people, uh, And just building those relationships that, you know, again, a lot of these relationships that have been built at junior level in studios have then developed into the next indie studio success that places like Supercell, you know, they wouldn't have met purely online.
So, uh, they met in a development studio. So, yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of challenges, mate, definitely. But, uh,
yeah. Well, we are social beings. We certainly are. We certainly are. And it's very difficult to be entirely social when you're only seeing each other over Zoom. Um, and, uh, so, yeah, I think what you said is, is true.
Ringing a lot of bells, especially with some chats I've had with producers recently, they, I think they would agree with you. The one thing that is interesting that's come out of that conversation, those conversations though is, um, some producers are saying there are certain types of. personality or types of people doing types of discipline, for example, coders, engineers, who are quite happy to work from home because they can get distracted by slack channels at work, and they can get distracted by people interrupting them at work, just like some of the artists.
They would rather not be interrupted. They just like to get on with it. And I think that probably fits into your, what you said about Hutch, this two day at home thing where, you know, they can focus on that work while they're at home. They can focus on the social aspects when they're not.
And that's where if you set that standard across the team, so you're all in or you're all out, I think that you can schedule your work accordingly because you know that on those particular two days when you get back in on Wednesday morning, Friday morning, and you're in your stand up and you say, what did you do yesterday?
Or what we're going to do tomorrow, for instance, you know, that you're going to be doing some pretty much, uh, Headset on, coding, you know, Put the mobile phone to one side, get out of your sight and just crack on. Turn the lights on. That's it. Yeah, that's it. So whatever, whatever suits you, but I think that then there's the It might be the developer meetings, you know, the, the various different collaboration pieces when you're in that kind of, uh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday zone.
Uh, so it works, it works. I mean, but there's got to be consistency, right? You know, I think that's where, you know, here and there, I want to do a day from home because someone's coming to fix my washing machine. Uh, I don't think that works quite as well. Uh, whereas the, you know, if you, you are, you know, the every.
Monday or every Wednesday or whatever you're going to be working from home and you schedule your workflow accordingly to do a certain type of task. That's where you can get productivity increases on for long term things. So, yeah, I think it's interesting. I think that's, yeah, that's the, Right. The comments.
So, so moving, moving forward and looking at the more general role of a producer. Now you've been recruiting for producers for years and I know that you're not doing that directly anymore. But just from what you've seen, if somebody came along to you and said, Look, why would anybody want to be a producer, because it sounds horrifically responsible and a lot of pressure.
Why would anybody want to do that thing. And what would you say to them.
I think in a nutshell, I think it's, it allows people who are, I don't know, they're passionate about games, but then maybe. They're not as excited and not as artistic or not as excited by the, uh, maybe the more mundane, uh, professions in games, uh, who allows you to kind of take a leading role in the next kind of generation of exciting, whether that's mobile or console products, really.
So, uh, Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think that what you find is that if you are an excellent coder or you are an excellent artist, it's something that's been developed from an early age, and maybe your passion for video games has developed in maybe your teens or in your kind of late teens and when you got to university.
By that point, you know, you've done your A levels, you've done the kind of basics. So a route into art or programming isn't, isn't really open to you. Uh, so, but if you are, I guess, if you switched on, you've got an eye for detail and you're a people person, I think that allows you the, the route in. Uh, to play a pretty key role in games development.
So, yeah, I think it's, it's an exciting one. Uh, and I think it's, uh, as long, like I say, as long as you've got the, the right personality, uh, traits that we've spoken about already, it allows you to, to kind of get into games development without, uh, you know, kind of being a, the kind of Stephen Hawkins of games programming, so.
It's interesting, isn't it? How high you can get as well. Yeah. I mean, producers tend to find themselves being executive producer, dev director, senior delivery manager. Um, but, but beyond that, right? Like studio owners and setting up their own businesses and companies and whatever. It's, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because it's, it's certainly does give you that leadership experience, I guess, and, and, and fills your ambitions.
Yeah, because I think that, again, a producer, You're an extrovert, you know, you're used to having, you know, you're the kind of person who walks into a room and starts a conversation with someone they don't know about a topic that you're both interested in.
So as you, you know, kind of move up the ladder and you start having more conversations with more senior people, uh, and you learn about the kind of business day to day of running a dev studio, because that's your job. Uh, it allows you to have the experience required to, yeah, maybe run a studio or own, maybe play a key role in starting your own business from that point of view that I think that if you work as a designer or a creative or a programmer, you are probably a bit more of a purist for those particular disciplines, which then don't lead as obviously to the, the kind of business side.
So yeah, it's, it's interesting.
It's interesting. Right. I think it's, it must be great for you because you, you now, I imagine have had relationships conversations with a lot of people who are now probably directors level and above. And again, it, it fuels what you said at the very beginning that for a recruitment company and for recruiters, you have to care about the people and you have to care about the long term relationships.
A hundred percent. And that's what it's all about.
I think it's, uh, you know, that's some of the, my best clients. I've come from relationships with producers who I've not even found them a job. But, you know, I've always been honest with them, always help them, give them advice. Uh, and maybe I've had them offers, but they've had a slightly better offer elsewhere.
But I think if you're honest and you are, you know, you kind of follow up You do what you say you're going to do. I think that that builds trust. And I think as a producer, you're a people person, you should be anyway. And, you know, people like people like themselves, right? You know, and people, you know, so you don't tolerate fools.
So, uh, yeah, it's great. It's, um, yeah, it's quite fortunate from my point of view. I think it's, I think if you work in, in production or maybe, you know, kind of sales and marketing, you're certainly in those, areas where you are going to be dealing with decision makers eventually who've risen from junior to kind of studio leadership or, you know, kind of brand managers or sales managers, business development directors, all that sort of stuff.
So pretty kind of key senior stakeholders within the games development and publishing process.
Yeah, and I guess, looking at what you're saying, if you're not very good with people, or if you're more like, if you don't really care about people, and if you don't want to go into the detail and always self improve, don't become a producer.
Absolutely not. Because you're going to die. Yeah, absolutely not. Because you won't even, you
know, you might be able to fudge the CV, but you won't get past the interview process. Absolutely. You've got it.
What do you wish I had asked you?
What do I, I, I saw this one on the list and I thought, it's a good one, it's a good one.
I think we're I think the, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but I think it probably is a topic that we need to discuss, uh, in the next couple of months, or there'll be a lot of discussion in the next couple of months as studios come back to work, because we're probably going to, you know, today we're going to get an update on the social distancing rule.
But it's going to go down from two to one meters. And I think it's that exploring how you create a healthy and dynamic team. If a lot of your team is based. So it's going to be a big challenge. And it's, I think, I think it's a, it's a topic that, well, I think come the end of the year, uh, where you'll find that some people are still, you know, cause I know that a few clients and studios have said, it's not going to be, it's going to be 2021 before back in the studio, just as a, you know, some have come back, some have come back part time, some are trialing full time.
I think it's going to be an interesting one that needs a bit of, uh, I guess it needs a bit of, uh, on the ground experience from different people and different conversations to see how that's going to work. Because again, studios are only as, you know, only as good as the people and the people only as good as the culture that you develop in the studio.
And culture doesn't just come from senior management. You see, you know, it's the responsibility of the team to create that culture as well. And how would you do that if you're all on the end of a Zoom call and you never meet? So it's going to be interesting on that.
It's particularly interesting globally, because of course, of the different rules.
I mean, for America, for example, it seems like most people are just going straight back into work. And, um, and over in Germany as well, I know that there are quite studios who are kind of going You know, half full and that sort of thing, whereas in the UK, we're still pretty strict. But I think that's what I've heard as well, that studios saying, oh, it'll probably be like October, November or next year when we open.
Personally, I think it's going to be sooner. Yeah, I think so. We'll see. Legally, I think a lot of companies are going to go, well, we're not going to risk it, basically, until, you know, Until we're absolutely legally in the clear, I think the larger studios will probably go.
I think it's like schools as well, right?
You know, uh, if it's, if the two, two meter distancing rule was to stay in effect for the rest of the year, it's completely impossible for the vast majority of development studios to fit people in. That's studios, which let's face it, you know, if you're particularly, if you're in London, the Southeast, uh, development spaces, it's expensive.
You don't just have a spare, uh, warehouse that you could dump it over 200 people in. So it's impossible to get your dev team socially distance in a safe environment, a meter. You probably find that a lot of desks, you could probably say, Oh, pretty much a meter anyway. So, you know, you could, uh, you know, So alternate shift patterns and stuff like that.
And again, you phased your, you, you kind of, where set teams were in one day and then they was in another day. You did, you know, you, you swapped over your two day. If you went to a two day remote working pattern, I think that you'll find that a lot of people. After this announcement, we'll be now more proactively looking at their, uh, I guess, kind of phased return plans.
Let's just put it that, but yeah, I think if the two meters stayed, there's no way that people could come back before next year. Um, for kind of January. So, uh, it's interesting. It's interesting. It's going to spark a lot of conversation with the, uh, today's press conference at five o'clock, I think. And a lot of question marks, uh, you know, particularly for us as well.
So it's something that we're looking at at IVARC. So, uh, yeah, we've, uh, it's going to be an interesting one.
So you guys are not looking to come back anytime soon, you're going to look at what happens today. I think, you know, based on
what happens today, I think that's going to determine what we do. But I think so, I mean, I've, you know, me and the senior management team have been probably working in the office a couple of days a week anyway, because I just prefer it.
I'm a people person. You know, uh, I like being, I like the team, but I've been around people, you know, having those anecdotal conversations that you can help get that extra couple of percent out of someone's day. Uh, and I think certainly again, there's your Kanban board. We love that. We love that. Love the Kanban board.
I love the Kanban board. I love the monday. com. It's all there. You know, if it's managed on there these days, but, uh, yeah, uh, I think that potentially, uh, You know a phased return over the next three months Uh, but long term again is something that we're potentially looking at as well There's a lot of meat to be put on the bones, but that kind of split week between remote and in the office I think is something that we are more than open to looking at and developing over the next two to three months
That's interesting.
I I wonder how much um money saved on say relocation Funds and things like that. How much people are looking at what they could save if they hired in different ways, and if they could then reinvest that into some kind of best practice infrastructure to support remote working better. I think one of the problems is it's difficult to actually spot what that infrastructure might look like.
Cause best practice. It hasn't been trialed like this before, not en masse like this. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of new stuff. And
there's all sorts of health and safety things, right? You know, it's like if you're working from home full time, you have to have home insurance that covers that and stuff like that.
And short term, I think that No one's got that. No one's got that. No one's got that. You know, obviously I've got that at the moment and you've got that. Um, but long term, again, people, it's not as simple as just, uh, you know what, take your kid home five days a week. You know, if you're, if you, if you've got a two day a week pattern, you can maybe get away with that.
But full time remote, there's then an additional cost that, Yes, studios are going to be able to save on relocation, but there's going to be a cost on the candidate side that studios just will say, well, that's part of the, part of the gig, right? You know, if you're working from home, it's down to you to, uh, you know, it's probably going to cost you whatever the electro extra is in electric gas, uh, internet, yada yada.
That's, that's part of the deal. So you've got, you've got to look after that, but you can come in if you want, because we've got a space for you here, so it's up to you. So it's, uh, There's a lot of factors like that that I see as a business owner, I've got to think about, but I think that a lot of people who, you know, aren't in that management and leadership situation like, you know, like yourself or me, that they don't consider that it's not just black and white.
So there's a lot of stuff that you need to think about and health and well being and all that sort of stuff is, again, of paramount importance. importance to us. So, yeah, it's, uh, there's a lot of things that need to be considered over the next couple of months. And that's going to be the same for studios as well, right?
Before they make a definitive, this is what we're going to do from day one. Whether that's September, October, November, January
onwards for the foreseeable. Um, what's next for you and for Argos? Yeah, absolutely,
yeah. I mean, obviously there's, there's, the challenges we just spoke about over the next two to three months.
The, um, migrating from an entirely on site, uh, In office environment to maybe one that revolves about a bit more flexibility, uh, when it comes to remote working again, very, you know, we've got a chat in five minutes about the where we're just kicking off this. So, but, uh, that's gonna be something that develops over the next two to three months.
Uh, But we've got a lot of growth plans early and really, you know, we've, we're 22 people at the moment and we want to be 30 people by this time next year, uh, kind of, kind of June to December next year. So it's, you know, again, those hiring or having this environment where we allow a split between remote and on site allow us to kind of hire more experienced people.
Potentially you have got games recruitment experience, you know, ACI based in Sheffield, you know, there's outside of Sumo and maybe people at plus net and stuff like that. There's not a big tech industry, so you're not going to get a big, uh, service industry at the same time. So it's, it's difficult for us to find games industry or IT or tech recruitment experience.
So it's something that we've considered is. throughout what if we can hire remote recruiters who are based not just in different parts of the UK but in different countries as well that have got games industry experience, uh, could we look at them full time remote with that experience? Maybe, and that's something that we're to consider.
And if there's anyone listening to this who's got that sort of experience, you know, I'd be interested in having chat to them. Definitely. But, uh, yeah, there's a lot of exciting challenges. You know, it's been our best year ever. Uh, you know, we've probably done something like 185 hires, I think pretty much over due July, 2019 to June.
So it's been our best year ever. Uh, and we've got a great
congratulations.
Good. It's been a great young team. Uh, we've got a great young team. We've got a fantastic senior management team and you know, the really exciting thing as well is. You know, we've mentioned James who is one of our marketing assistants or execs.
We've got a fantastic internal marketing team of five people which allow us to, uh, run and promote stuff like our podcasts, Search for a Star, Rising Star, uh, you know, Grads in Games tour and, you know, push out a lot of the production mailer and make that look a little bit more polished and the, you know, the various different disciplines and kind of help us Have a lot more touch points with candidates and clients as well.
So it's exciting. I think we've got a great core team and yeah, we're looking, we're still looking to expand and yeah, onwards and upwards for the rest of 2020 and 2021. Definitely. Hopefully, and hopefully GDC's on next year because I've never been to San Francisco and that was, that was biggest disappointment about COVID.
So, haven't you? Over, that was it, 13 and a half years and I finally got my seat on the plane. And COVID happens. So, uh, who knows next year? Who knows?
Mate, you're going to enjoy it. Maybe I'll see you there. Um, it'd be nice to have a beer at last. Yeah, definitely. Um, so I better let you go, mate, because you only got three minutes.
I just, I'm really grateful. Thank you so much. This has been really lovely to talk to you. And you've said a lot of really great stuff and I'm sure people will find it useful. Thanks
for inviting me to be part of the podcast and, uh, yeah, I hope it helps. Helps people and gives them some valuable advice and makes them think about some of the challenges that are coming up.
Thanks for listening. As always, we really appreciate your thoughts and feedback about the show. You can reach out to us by visiting game production. com's podcast pages and leaving comments under each episode. We have a Facebook group and YouTube channel that you can find linked from the website. If you want to contribute or fancy a chat in the future, we'd love to hear from you.
This is the first of a series of interviews with recruitment professionals in the games industry. Our goal is to find out what recruiters seek out in potential game producers from associate to EP and beyond. From product manager to project manager. We also want to know what's changed during coronavirus and how they see recruitment changing, moving forwards.
So today we're very, very fortunate indeed to have Simon, Simon Hope from Aardvark, uh, join us to talk about this. He's been in the industry for years and years. He will tell us, but he's been at Aardvark for about 140 years and I think was One of the original founders of it, uh, but we'll, we'll come to that.
But Aardvark, uh, I have, I've got a great deal of time for, uh, Aardvark Swift. One of the handful of rock solid game recruitment companies in the UK. Um, one of the first that I know of to start a game production specific newsletter. With jobs advice and relevant news, which I've always found very useful Along with the recent podcast so recruitment director simon joins us.
He handed over the production recruitment reigns So max who sadly can't join us because he's looking for a house Simon's going to wax lyrical about recruitment. Good morning, sir. How are you? I'm good I'm good. Thanks. Liam. I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Well, I'm it's You You know, it's a real honor, mate.
And, and, um, I know we've talked quite a bit in the past, but, um, you know, genuine words about Aardvark. You, you guys have done a great job and I really appreciate the support you've given producers and the rest of us. Um, so I've just said a little bit about you and about Aardvark, but you want to talk a little bit about it yourself?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't one of the original founders. Uh, I mean, I, in, in 1989 I was still, uh, kind of like, probably pri well, primary school, so I was probably still doing, uh, basic maths and vocabulary at that point. So, uh, but yeah, a around since 89, uh. So we were possibly the first specialist games recruitment agency, uh, certainly in the UK.
I mean, obviously, uh, you know, based in, we're based in Rotherham, which is just near Sheffield, which obviously you've got the kind of Gremlin Infogrames kind of heritage there. And that's kind of how it started. Now the original founder, a guy called Stephen Lloyd Davis, he kind of started, I think he was an IT recruiter and by chance got a call one day from one of the, from kind of Gremlin and saw there was a bit of a niche and hey presto, he was a games recruiter all of a sudden.
So, uh, but yeah, so I mean, I, I've been at Aardvark, uh, we are three days off my 14th anniversary. The 26th of June, 2006. What a, what a, what a dark day. I mean, what a great day that was. What a great day that was. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I joined straight from university. So I'm, I'm born and bred in Sheffield.
Uh, lived here all my life. Went to Hallam. Uh, did law, which is completely, You know, useless when it comes to useful, useful. Yeah, obviously every time we get a contract, uh, it always comes to me. Uh, so it's useful in some circumstances, but yeah, I mean, I, uh, I've done sales and stuff when I was in university and, uh, you know, work for last minute.
com. And by chance, my CV made its way to monster and made its way. Into the, uh, the sites of, uh, well, Ian, who's obviously the MD now, and, you know, and, and, you know, the rest is history, as they say, so, uh, yeah, it's been a, that's a pop, there's a pop of history of us and me.
So, but it's interesting, isn't it?
Because, um, If you'll forgive me, most recruiters are scum. Um, and I mean that in the nicest way. Um, but, you know, I've been in IT, I was like an IT contractor for years, and they really are horrible people on the whole. But I've been really struck by, um, you, and I've got just genuinely nice people. And you, you, you go the extra mile.
And, um, I'm hoping, That you know people will realize a little bit about that as we start talking in more detail about Um, particularly production things like that. Um, but it's uh, I guess for you it makes a big difference getting to know people and having relationships with them right compared to just yeah Toronto placement.
I mean one of the
cliches that I always use i'm sure my People like Max and, and the rest of the team get really bored of hearing his, uh, it's, it's all about the long game, right? You know, I think a lot of recruiters look at how can I make some money off someone this week? But the games industry is about.
You know, I don't, I mean, again, I've not worked in other industries, so, but I certainly the games industry is about building long term relationships, building trust and kind of doing, doing what you say you're going to do for people, you know, if you make a promise, so you, you know, can make a commitment, you do your best to kind of follow and honor that.
So that's, that's all you can do. That's all you can do really. And hopefully along the line, you either, you know, help someone find their next job or. You know, we were kind of they become one day become a hiring manager themselves and you help them fill some roles on the team. And that's that's what it's been about for me for, you know, kind of what, 14 years or so now and across all the different areas of development I've worked in.
And yeah, that's what I told the team at Arvark, you know, you know, yeah,
that's
simple as that
really clearly works as an approach. Um, It's, it's more human that way, isn't it? And people say that the games industry is very small, and that you should be careful of the relationships you form, and, and, and this longevity approach that you just mentioned.
And of course, the games industry, back when you started, back when I started too, it was pretty small. I wouldn't say it was so small now, but it's, I think, It still feels that way, doesn't it? That it's so interconnected.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit like where I live in Sheffield is that it's a, it's a big city, but it feels like, it feels like a small place because everyone's so friendly and, you know, people take the time, uh, to kind of ask how you are.
And I think it's very much like the games industry, you know, it's a global industry these days. And a lot of the, You know, the larger developers of older, you know, you, you kind of EAs and they've shared studios and your ages and all that sort of stuff. They spawned smaller studios who have grown as well, but those kind of, those figures are still there, you know, that have always been there and you know, the people who've, you know, were 14 years ago were, you know, kind of QA testers and now senior producers, exec producers.
And yeah, I think it. People are always quite happy to talk to you about as well, because I think we're quite lucky in games that we're working in an industry that most people kind of would see as a hobby, you know, I guess, you know, people love to play video games, right? Everyone I know loves playing video games to varying degrees.
And we kind of get to talk about, uh, get to talk about this, this kind of topic on a daily basis. So people are more than happy to talk Yeah, that way we're quite fortunate, so it's good.
Yeah, I think so. And so, do you mind if we do a bit of deep diving around the place? I know I sent you a list of questions.
Yeah, of course. Yeah, no problem. Just to keep you on your toes. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what I've been realising recently, and I probably already knew it at one level, but through doing these podcasts, um, I've realised that it's very difficult to leap into production out of college, right? It's much more common, it seems, that people have some games industry experience first and then shift into production.
Now, as a recruiter, what's your view of that? What's your perceptions? Yeah, I mean, I've seen people,
you know, I think when it comes to, uh, college students, you know, I think that, I think that when it comes to occurring in the games industry, They would expect most people to have gone to university from college.
You know, I mean, you know, this, uh, apprenticeships in video games. I know there's a few people trying to get off at lower levels, but you would have to go to college from college university, uh, to get a relevant degree. But I think that, I think the most, the most important thing that I found that people who go to university and.
show their kind of passion for the subjects and not just, they don't just go to university, go to lecturers, do the coursework, expect to get a job. They actively seek out opportunities to, you know, kind of get involved in, you know, and drive, you know, from a production standpoint, into projects, you know, within their circle of friends, because you should be quite fortunate that you should know a few, uh, artists, animators, game designers, programmers on your course.
And I mean, Take that opportunity to kind of immerse yourself in that challenge of developing an indie project. And I think it just, and then, you know, if you've got that, get involved in some more kind of professionally controlled competitions, you know, whether that's Search for a Star, you know, Dare to be Digital, but that.
The main thing is that because everyone is coming into video games is generally passionate about it. It's not just showing people that you like playing video games, but you are passionate about developing your career and you will go the extra mile to seek out the challenges that are there and they can be and they can be found within an education setting.
Uh, that don't just involved doing what you're told by your lecturers and, you know, your course tutors, which is the biggest mistake you could, uh, you could kind of ever, ever take going into a university setting is to just do that and expect to walk, you know, not get involved in anything and expect to walk straight into a job.
So they just, it just doesn't work like that, unfortunately.
Yeah. So that's very interesting. Um, I mean, you mentioned passion and getting involved in indie projects, et cetera. Um, but if we're looking at, say, the first leap into, say, an associate producer role, would you say that you get many successful applicants of, for people who have done what you have just said, run indie projects, et cetera, or would you say most of them are already somewhere within the games industry in QA or whatever?
Yeah. I mean,
I'd
probably say 80 to 90 percent of
people are of the latter. Uh, I mean, there are, again, there aren't that many opportunities. Uh, from a, if we're talking about production in particular, to get involved in a, a production, you know, kind of project competition project environment that's controlled, uh, because obviously that's a professional, it's a controlled environment.
You know, you have a set budget, you know, set timeframes, you have a certain number of people on your team that you, you manage schedule for, et cetera. And there's not that much outside, maybe dare to be digital and a few others. that allow that from a production standpoint. Uh, so what you find is that, you know, studios will tend to want people who, now they, they kind of know, they trust because they work in QA and their own particular studio, or have, you know, two to three years with, you know, a good proportion that come in at a senior QA level where that particular person has experience of the production cycle.
Again, professional experience, because nothing, unfortunately, makes up for that sort of experience. And it's difficult, you know, there's always going to be, you know, when entry level roles, there's always going to be a leap of faith. So as a candidate, you've got to do as much as you can to kind of take that Second guessing away from hiring managers, take that doubt away by, you know, again, going the extra mile to, you know, to corral course mates, to, to make a project and develop it and release it on the app store or Google, you know, Google store, get involved in putting a team into there to be digital or any other competitions like that, uh, getting involved in stuff like search for a star.
Uh, because until you've got that experience, there's always going to be a question mark. So. You know, so again, it's that passion. It's that passion thing. If you do that, wear it in and you learn lessons from it. Uh, you know, because there's going to be a lot of failures, you know, uh, as a, as a junior candidate, but understand those lessons and it's going to give you the best chance, right?
It's going to give you the best chance.
So, thank you. And I think that's, that's certainly what I'm hearing from others is that to climb up the production ladder in the first place, You've got to be in there. You've got to already be in there. And you're saying like 80 to 90 percent and I can see why. And of course, if you're just doing like a coding weekend to make a game, no one needs a producer.
They just need people who can make a game to get on with it. So it makes total sense what you're saying. If you are looking at people approaching you trying to find new producers, is it mostly the producer level upwards? People have already proven themselves.
Yeah, I mean, I'd say so. I mean, obviously, as I said.
When you are making that step up from, uh, in a larger studio or when you're making that step up into an associate producer role, you know, a lot of the time, if, you know, so long as studios have got their own in house QA teams, they've probably got an earmark of someone at senior league QA level who you.
Then, you know, you want to promote, uh, you know, kind of, uh, development within your own team and that culture of developing people. So people will often look internally, first of all. Uh, so when they come to me, they want people who I've got, yeah, that are beginning to develop a track record of, you know, worked with projects of a particular size, a particular nature.
Uh, and I get it. You know, I've released proven projects and they've worked on the full development cycle. So that obviously then stands to reason that they're going to have to have for a longer, you know, for a bigger project, it's going to be two to three years, right? A big development cycle on a console game.
So, so yeah, that's generally the case, Liam, I'd say. Absolutely.
And I'm, I kind of personally interested because I can see how the industry is changing, but personally interested in looking at mobile game development versus, if you will, PC console, because There's a lot of difference between them. And I'm wondering, do you, do you see a big difference?
Like, do you actually place producers in, in a purely mobile game team, or would there more likely be product managers or product owners in there?
Well, yeah, I mean, that's the. That's the split, right, when it comes to, uh, mobile in particular, is that it's a bit like, you see, I mean, again, the old, when you're looking at old school console development, your producer used to be almost the kind of, the, the, the quality holder as well, you know, it wasn't just the project manager, but now that roles firmly with creative directors.
Producers are very much kind of project team managers, managing that, you know, looking after the culture internally in that particular kind of unit of what they're looking at on their team or whatever. But in mobile, particularly the vast, vast majority now, uh, you know, free to play live ops. Uh, so you've got two different angles.
You've got the delivery and management of the team, but then you've got the monetization. You know, of the project, because if it isn't monetizing, uh, or if it's not making any money, uh, the project gets knocked on the head, right? So, yeah, you've got that difference between a project manager, a producer, is going to be the project manager, they're going to deliver the project, uh, manage the team, the budgets, all that sort of stuff, initially, uh, and then, obviously, post launch.
There's probably going to be anything from weekly fortnightly to monthly updates, which then present a different problem altogether, because you've gone from managing it on a mobile game, it could be up to 18 months, but probably more like kind of six to nine months. development cycle, uh, to then you're doing smaller fortnightly updates, which, you know, mean that you're running kind of two weeks sprint back to back to back to back.
So, you know, they've, you kind of tend to focus on that as a producer, whereas you, you're kind of product. Manager would be the, what some people would call a product owner. So would they be involved in, you know, working with the design team and the production team to make the often data driven decisions that, you know, determine the, the kind of the, I guess, the future course of the product and help it make money and.
be successful and keep you going for as long as possible, really. So, yeah, I mean, it's, so it's a completely different skill set that has been, you know, has come around from the, the move to kind of free to play certainly in the last probably six or seven years. I think, yeah, I think before that it didn't really exist, but yeah, it's come from You know, kind of, uh, apps development and tech and stuff like that.
And yeah, it's now completed a job title and different, different discipline,
of course. So, uh, yeah, I think there's some snootiness around as well, PC console versus mobile and all that. And I think that's, that's normal and common, but, um, I think it's beginning to disappear a little, but certainly they are different roles.
And, uh, The role of project management, like you say, and the role of agile training, because everyone seems every producer and their dog seems to be a scrum master these days. But I think you can see, like you just said, with software development for mobile gaming, it makes perfect sense to have a wholly agile team with product owners, et cetera.
But I, I challenge most games companies who are doing. PC console to find a product that normally not normally what you, as you said, that they're like your creative directors and your lead producers and stuff like that. They, they play that role. Yeah. Um, it's very interesting. And I guess that leads to my next question, which is, um, what are the most difficult production roles to actually place?
Uh,
I think either, what I mean, either the, uh, the product roles, you know, the kind of product manager roles, uh, or probably in a console environment, probably a technical producer, uh, for people that have them because, you know, on the product side for mobile games, uh, you want someone who's, you know, delivered a end to end successful product and monetized it.
Uh, so it's. It's a very crowded marketplace with a lot of, uh, a lot of the more successful games, uh, at some of the bigger developers, uh, probably being successful because they have deeper pockets and can buy, maybe can buy users and, or can migrate users from their other already successful products, these ones.
So, a product manager, a small developer is really having to work twice as hard to, to kind of monetize a game and, you know, kind of fit the key producer base and, and yeah, you know, kind of make it pay as it were. And then on the console side, you know, technical producers, it's, it's just a difficult one because, you know, you've got to find a candidate who's got experience in software development or as a, you know, programmer, ideally, who's got that desire to move towards a project management role, who has excellent communication skills, which, you know, kind of, uh, isn't always, you know, something you'd maybe find in a, a programmer, you know, it's very much about.
You know, the code and being, you know, kind of synced and doing your job and all that sort of stuff. And then you've got to be interested and pretty decent in scheduling as well and kind of maintaining that link between the, uh, the programming team and the rest of the development team. So it's a very, very difficult role.
It's a very difficult role because you're looking for someone who's got all, you know, kind of talents from both sides of the fence, really, and somebody who wants to do it. So, yeah, I think they're the two difficult ones, you know, in the console and mobile environment, you know, technical producer and product manager.
Yeah. And that's very interesting because I was going to ask you this at the beginning, but I'm glad I waited. So what do you think are the traits of a successful producer? You mentioned passion earlier, and you've talked about a few things, but If you're looking at chatting to a person, getting to know him a little bit, seeing if you can place them, what stands out when you go, good, they've got those traits.
Yeah. Yeah. I
mean,
I think one of
the, I think the main, one of the main ones, I mean, I've got maybe a handful, but I kind of got excellent communication skills. Uh, I think that the problem I find that a lot of people have, is that they. A particular interview stage, which is the reason why people often don't get the job is they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk and they talk.
And I think the, you know, producer or good project manager has to be succinct. And, but then able to go into detail when asked and when required. So it's a difficult one, uh, because if you go off on a tangent, uh, in your project. It's going to cost you a lot of time and money. So they're looking for people who've got the kind of communication skills that would lead them to be a successful manager, a person manager, people manager.
Uh, I think resilience as well, because I think you're going to, not only are you going to be the person that probably takes a lot of work for a high developer, you're going to be that person who takes a lot of, uh, maybe stern feedback from the publisher and studio management. Uh, but you have to have that resilience that you can't get kind of get down to yourself because you've got to, you know, you've got to take that feedback on board and.
You know, make sure that the team are delivering at the same time. So you've got to, it's kind of got to be water off a duck's back, but kind of be able to get to the point. Uh, another big one that I often find is a bit of a negative when people don't have this, is that they're a good team player because, well, you have to manage a team, but.
I think that I find that a lot of people who've got loads of experience and they're good at self promotion tend to say I a lot. They don't say we, because it takes a team to deliver a game, not a person. So I think that, and that also says a lot about how well you can foster that kind of culture in the team as well.
So that's important. I think, you know, being a team player and, and, you know, kind of put in the, put in the project before your own personal needs. And again, it's just simply finding out, it's something you can kind of cut through the noise as well. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of noise, a lot of different dependencies within a, a games development studio, you know, particularly if you work for hire and you, you know, working for a publisher.
So you've got to be able to kind of see the risks, uh, deal with the important issues and kind of keep the team and project on track, really. So,
that being succinct. That's really interesting, mate. And, and, uh, As a follow up to that, because I've been writing some leadership articles recently to just sort of point out when you, when you move up the chain of command, so to speak, like when you try and be a producer, let's say you're in QA and you move to be an associate producer and then you move up the chain and eventually you could be like a studio owner, right?
Because producers tend to be natural leaders, and they tend to be expected to lead things. And you look at the traits, and the point I was trying to make in these articles was, you know what, each time you leap to the next level, your conversation changes, your stakeholders change, the way you have to deal with things change.
So let's just carry on talking about what you said about these traits. So how do you think they change? Let's say from a producer to a lead producer or an executive producer. How is that leap made when you're looking at recruiting people? Do you advise them about that, that shift and how they have to communicate differently?
Yeah, I mean, because I think as an associate producer or a kind of producer, kind of, It was in that kind of mid level bracket, you know, maybe they've got, you know, kind of three to five years experience. I think a lot of your communication is probably going to be, uh, down to the team and alongside, you know, kind of the stakeholders are at your level.
Whereas as soon as you start to move up to senior EP, uh, you know, kind of production director, studio head, you are, you know, You kind of then, you all really are the leader in those sorts of positions, so you've got to be able to communicate up and down and, you know, alongside to your kind of peers as well in different teams because, you know, when you're a senior producer in EP, you are then in higher level meetings with studio management, other directors, tech, design, art, uh, and you've got to be able to manage those different relationships and dependencies where when you're a junior producer in AP, mid level, You are, your task is to schedule, is to manage the team, uh, and manage, you know, kind of maybe the risk and stuff like that.
So I think certainly, I think you've got to be adept at, you know, kind of, again, I don't, I wouldn't say not, not kind of taking bull. But having the conviction to kind of stand your ground when it comes to important decisions and having a, have an opinion, which by that point is backed up with experience, right?
Uh, so yeah, I think it does change, you know, it just, I guess that's, it's the same with any job, right? You know, your experience gives you often a more rounded opinion and, and, you know, Things pop up. You don't have to ask for help, you know, very often because being out again, but at the same time, you know, when you do need help.
So, uh, yeah, it's a difficult one, but I guess it's the same for many jobs.
Yeah, I think that's true. I think that leap. From stage to stage fundamentally changes what's expected of you, but no one particularly tells you what that is. And I guess it's interesting with your position and looking at the games industry.
It's my opinion, walking outside, that there's no When you have those emerging leaders who might, say, be in charge of Say a QA leader wants to become a producer. There's no Sort of there's no training course. There's no support necessarily that says oh you're going into into a leadership track now And we're going to support you And I guess you know there is in other industries, and I'm just wondering do you do you see that?
There should be do you think that there should be more support to climb up the production ladder? internally
Uh, it's a difficult one because, uh, I mean, obviously I'm not a producer in a game studio, so I kind of don't know what individual cases do. But you've got a lot of gossip. Like maybe, maybe I have made, maybe it's just a kiss and tell.
Is this what it is? But, uh, I think that, I think it's difficult. I think that that's why people often look towards people like myself, you know, when, after they've released a, uh, a project, uh, often, you know, a longer project, two, three years, because. I think that the needs of the studio dictate how fast people can, uh, kind of move up upwards trajectory wise internally, right?
Because if you've got a studio of 50 people and you're the producer and you do a great project, uh, but that studio is never going to move to a two project studio. So the next project is 50 people, 40 people, and you just need one or two producers and you're seeing it. sticks around, uh, you're not going to, you're to progress, right?
Because it's, there's just no room for you to do so. That's why I often find that, uh, people kind of either move and move upwards, you know, it's, it can be difficult, it can be difficult because again, I would say that, If you've not worked with someone before and you're looking to move from a producer to a senior, we've just spoke about the different kind of dependencies that you have and stuff like that.
You haven't necessarily got the experience of that, but what they might do is move upwards in role to a slightly smaller studio. Uh, to get that experience in a slightly smaller team or move to an environment where the studios are two projects, a free project studio, or it's part of a wider organization.
So that kind of side, an up, up move is possible within the next kind of 12 to 18 months. So, but yeah, I mean, it's difficult, right? Because I think you, you're dictated by the success of the company you work for, uh, and I think, again, it's, it's circumstances that can often dictate that. So it would be nice, uh, for people to get more leadership development and larger organizations that does happen.
But I guess when budgets are tight and obviously in the post COVID world that we might post COVID as everyone says post COVID, but who knows when post COVID may be that budgets will and, you know, probably get tighter. So, uh, Yeah, it's still going to remain pretty difficult, uh, for studios to invest large amounts of money in, in leadership development, really.
I think they just rely on people gaining the experience and the, the kind of the support from their peers.
Uh, you know. Well, thank goodness for game production. com. Well, exactly, exactly. It's a good job we got
that.
So we talked a little bit about, um, what's going on now, how, how the industry is shifting, etc.
But if we look forwards. Um, and we'll talk about COVID separately, right? But if we look at how the industry is shifting, I, I read a book, um, a little while back about game production, um, that was written 15 years ago, I think, one of the few, and, and when you look at that now and you, you see how things have shifted, it's like you were saying this, this, There's, of course, there's mobile, but there's also that lots more games now go live and stay live and have DLC and you need that live ops experience, et cetera, and that knowledge about how to keep producing content.
Yeah, even in a console environment, yeah, so. If you look at the future and you look at how things are shifting. What advice would you give producers about where to make sure they keep focused and understand what's coming?
Yeah, I think that, I think one of the things I'd say in terms of, uh, post COVID or whatever is I think you've always got to be prepared to be flexible.
Uh, you know, certainly in the more formative years of your career, in that first, I don't know, five, six years, when it comes to where you might place yourself in the world. Because I think you are, you kind of have to go where the projects are or where the opportunities are, because we've just spoke about that.
So, uh, I think you've got to be prepared to do that. Uh, I think, you know, it just kind of, it's a pure numbers game. If you look at a game development team, there's more artists, there are more programmers, uh, often more QA, uh, you know, kind of testers than there are producers. So the opportunities are often, uh, you know, they're more, the big ones are more scarce.
So you have to be prepared to be flexible and move around. But I think that, you know, I think you've always got to, again, keep your eye on, uh, there's, there's an interest, it's going to be interesting, you know, if studios do adopt a more kind of remote focus or, um, you know, a, a in, in studio slash remote balance for their teams, uh, that you've got to keep your focus on people.
management, team development, and that culture side as well, because I think it's going to be a lot more difficult. There's going to be a lot more, that's a real challenge for producers because you're not just responsible, you know, as an artist, as a programmer, as an animator, designer, you're responsible for your own, own work.
But as a producer, you're responsible for 20, 30, 40 people's work workflows and 40 people's happiness. So there's a big challenge post COVID for producers, really. I think that's going to come from that, you know, kind of team development, team culture and that sort of stuff. And managing people's time, you know, when they're not in the studio.
And yeah, I think it's going to be a real interesting one, a real interesting one and a big challenge for a lot of people. So something to think about now and get your head around it.
Yeah, that's great. And so let's move on to that because I was, uh, I was looking at these editorials that you guys have been putting up and there was one there, which was the health check of the industry.
So James Barron stated at the end of March, which obviously is a while back now. Many studios have opted to adopt remote hiring and remote working processes during COVID 19 in ways that could far outlast the pandemic itself, especially if they prove more efficient and accessible to candidates and businesses globally.
So, how's that view looking now?
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I think a lot's happened since March. I think March was the last time I had a haircut. So, uh, there's certainly been a lot happened since then. It looks like it, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, but, uh, I think it's been a really interesting one. I mean, we're kind of, Currently in the midst of a, another health check at the minute.
And, uh, I mean that the one you've discussed there, we, it was, uh, we, we spoke to around about 120 of our clients and, and tried to get an update on what their thoughts were going forward. And then I think there was initially a lot of shock around, Oh my gosh, how do we transition 20, 40, 200 people to work in remotely?
A lot of skepticism about that because Particularly in the UK, the UK market is generally Particularly the console market characterized by work for hire. Uh, so there's the majority of developers like that. So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of skepticism from publishers and stuff like that, who, who want their trade secrets kept by lock and key in the studio or on secure servers.
So, but that, I think that's softened, uh, probably through need rather than desire. Uh, and I'm not entirely sure that we're going to see a, uh, change to a completely remote working environment, to be honest, because again, there's a whole lot of problems in question marks that are posed behind health and wellbeing of staff when they're isolated in their own offices, uh, developing a team culture and just managing a, a large project with big budgets, uh, when candidates, uh, uh, staff developers are around, you know, based in multiple locations around the world often.
But I think what you might see I think, you know, from speaking to a few developers in the last kind of week or so, is that they are for the particularly hard to fill roles. And again, you know what I'm going to say, it's going to be programmers. It's going to be the, yeah, it's going to be like the, the, you kind of tech programmers, your graphics, your animation, tech artists.
They are, some studios are now saying, right, well, we are prepared for this position to be remote fully. Right. So you've got more than you can have that. Uh, but on the other hand, I think what you might find is, uh, approached the, you know, maybe like someone like a Hutch, for instance, uh, where they do, uh, a couple of days for people who want to, Work from home on set days, you know, I hope you know, do I think Tuesday, Thursday, where everyone, if he wants to work from home on those particular days, but you've got that Monday, Wednesday, Friday touch point, that's never too far away, uh, where, you know, that everyone's going to be in and you can catch it with people.
And, uh, you know, you can make sure that, you know, kind of the meetings and things that need to happen, happen. Uh, so you're never going to lose that kind of. That kind of feeling of culture and being part of a team, which I think is so important. Uh, it's, yeah, I think that's, that's what you'll find, I think.
So, but it's going to be interesting. Going to be interesting.
It is. And I think, you know, I remember, I mean, I'm quite lucky really, or unlucky in that I've spent quite a lot of years. Doing remote working or being in charge of virtual teams that are based all over the place and, and all the different time zones stuff.
So when people started doing remote work and I was like, Oh, okay. So, you know, I know a couple of the best practices around here and whatever. And I started watching it and looking at articles. But what I found recently is that there's a lot of talk around mental health now. And it strikes me what you said earlier about the producer has a.
As has a responsibility to care for his or her team. And I think it's very difficult to care remotely. the same degree, isn't it? And you look at mental health issues, you look at things that are coming out now where people are going, well, I kind of, I start as soon as I'm in the front of the computer, I don't really stop working because you know, somebody just gets me and sends me a message and it's at night.
And I think, well, I'm at my laptop. Might as well keep working for a while. And I, and I think that's, It's quite a dangerous cycle to have to break, isn't it? And if you're a producer, that's something you need to be aware of. Definitely. Because I think that, I think if you want to
work from home, I think you've got to be prepared to have that environment where you've got a separate space.
That is workspace, you know, it's a separate room. It's just, you know, not in your kitchen, not as permanently as I'm doing in my front room. Uh, this is great temporary for, for one or two days, but you need that environment at home where you can, you go into that room, it's work. And then you shut that door, you know, at 6 PM or whatever, because yeah, the last thing you want is.
You know, someone feeling compelled because their laptop is on their knee on the sofa at the side of them to start work at seven and not finish until seven, eight o'clock at night, because what you'll do is that for a short term, you'll get a lot more productivity out of that person. But over the long term that just nose dives.
And what you'll find is that you'll find that, uh, If the wrong sort of pressures are put on people that this is the new standard that you're setting is that they'll probably just be upset, they'll leave and then you're, you're faced with a big hole. So yeah, I think there's a lot of challenges to managing people in that sort of environment permanently that, you know, people need to be using, like I've said, producers need to start considering really.
And. You know, when people are asking for full time, I want to work full time remotely, you've got to, that's got to be a two way conversation because it's there, you know, it's the person's responsibility not to put themselves in that situation as well where, oh, I'm just going to be working in my living room because again, a lot of games developers, you know, at entry level, entry level trainees, they're going to be young people.
They can't afford five bedroom houses. They're going to be in. studio apartments. They're all like you, aren't they? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They're my two bedroom cottages at the minute. So, uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah, you know, they're going to be in the studio apartments in, you know, kind of, uh, commuter belts in, you know, around London.
And they just can't afford to put that environment into place. You know, it's too expensive. So I think. And again, there's so, you know, I think there's so many bad habits that you can also pick up at home that if you go straight from being a junior person to working at home, there's so many distractions and with all the will in the world that, you know, you go into a games development studio and you take away those distractions and you develop that culture.
Uh, and that Is I think still going to be the way to go. I think that, uh, you know, giving people more flexibility is fantastic. And I think that's the right thing to do because people have proven that they can do it once they've reached a certain threshold of experience, whether that's 12 months, 18 months, two years, I think great, you know, a couple of days a week where, you know, they can work, uh, whatever that's condensed hours, you know, work for a lunch.
That's great. But I think you need to be at some FaceTime, you know, in studio with people, uh, And just building those relationships that, you know, again, a lot of these relationships that have been built at junior level in studios have then developed into the next indie studio success that places like Supercell, you know, they wouldn't have met purely online.
So, uh, they met in a development studio. So, yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of challenges, mate, definitely. But, uh,
yeah. Well, we are social beings. We certainly are. We certainly are. And it's very difficult to be entirely social when you're only seeing each other over Zoom. Um, and, uh, so, yeah, I think what you said is, is true.
Ringing a lot of bells, especially with some chats I've had with producers recently, they, I think they would agree with you. The one thing that is interesting that's come out of that conversation, those conversations though is, um, some producers are saying there are certain types of. personality or types of people doing types of discipline, for example, coders, engineers, who are quite happy to work from home because they can get distracted by slack channels at work, and they can get distracted by people interrupting them at work, just like some of the artists.
They would rather not be interrupted. They just like to get on with it. And I think that probably fits into your, what you said about Hutch, this two day at home thing where, you know, they can focus on that work while they're at home. They can focus on the social aspects when they're not.
And that's where if you set that standard across the team, so you're all in or you're all out, I think that you can schedule your work accordingly because you know that on those particular two days when you get back in on Wednesday morning, Friday morning, and you're in your stand up and you say, what did you do yesterday?
Or what we're going to do tomorrow, for instance, you know, that you're going to be doing some pretty much, uh, Headset on, coding, you know, Put the mobile phone to one side, get out of your sight and just crack on. Turn the lights on. That's it. Yeah, that's it. So whatever, whatever suits you, but I think that then there's the It might be the developer meetings, you know, the, the various different collaboration pieces when you're in that kind of, uh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday zone.
Uh, so it works, it works. I mean, but there's got to be consistency, right? You know, I think that's where, you know, here and there, I want to do a day from home because someone's coming to fix my washing machine. Uh, I don't think that works quite as well. Uh, whereas the, you know, if you, you are, you know, the every.
Monday or every Wednesday or whatever you're going to be working from home and you schedule your workflow accordingly to do a certain type of task. That's where you can get productivity increases on for long term things. So, yeah, I think it's interesting. I think that's, yeah, that's the, Right. The comments.
So, so moving, moving forward and looking at the more general role of a producer. Now you've been recruiting for producers for years and I know that you're not doing that directly anymore. But just from what you've seen, if somebody came along to you and said, Look, why would anybody want to be a producer, because it sounds horrifically responsible and a lot of pressure.
Why would anybody want to do that thing. And what would you say to them.
I think in a nutshell, I think it's, it allows people who are, I don't know, they're passionate about games, but then maybe. They're not as excited and not as artistic or not as excited by the, uh, maybe the more mundane, uh, professions in games, uh, who allows you to kind of take a leading role in the next kind of generation of exciting, whether that's mobile or console products, really.
So, uh, Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think that what you find is that if you are an excellent coder or you are an excellent artist, it's something that's been developed from an early age, and maybe your passion for video games has developed in maybe your teens or in your kind of late teens and when you got to university.
By that point, you know, you've done your A levels, you've done the kind of basics. So a route into art or programming isn't, isn't really open to you. Uh, so, but if you are, I guess, if you switched on, you've got an eye for detail and you're a people person, I think that allows you the, the route in. Uh, to play a pretty key role in games development.
So, yeah, I think it's, it's an exciting one. Uh, and I think it's, uh, as long, like I say, as long as you've got the, the right personality, uh, traits that we've spoken about already, it allows you to, to kind of get into games development without, uh, you know, kind of being a, the kind of Stephen Hawkins of games programming, so.
It's interesting, isn't it? How high you can get as well. Yeah. I mean, producers tend to find themselves being executive producer, dev director, senior delivery manager. Um, but, but beyond that, right? Like studio owners and setting up their own businesses and companies and whatever. It's, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because it's, it's certainly does give you that leadership experience, I guess, and, and, and fills your ambitions.
Yeah, because I think that, again, a producer, You're an extrovert, you know, you're used to having, you know, you're the kind of person who walks into a room and starts a conversation with someone they don't know about a topic that you're both interested in.
So as you, you know, kind of move up the ladder and you start having more conversations with more senior people, uh, and you learn about the kind of business day to day of running a dev studio, because that's your job. Uh, it allows you to have the experience required to, yeah, maybe run a studio or own, maybe play a key role in starting your own business from that point of view that I think that if you work as a designer or a creative or a programmer, you are probably a bit more of a purist for those particular disciplines, which then don't lead as obviously to the, the kind of business side.
So yeah, it's, it's interesting.
It's interesting. Right. I think it's, it must be great for you because you, you now, I imagine have had relationships conversations with a lot of people who are now probably directors level and above. And again, it, it fuels what you said at the very beginning that for a recruitment company and for recruiters, you have to care about the people and you have to care about the long term relationships.
A hundred percent. And that's what it's all about.
I think it's, uh, you know, that's some of the, my best clients. I've come from relationships with producers who I've not even found them a job. But, you know, I've always been honest with them, always help them, give them advice. Uh, and maybe I've had them offers, but they've had a slightly better offer elsewhere.
But I think if you're honest and you are, you know, you kind of follow up You do what you say you're going to do. I think that that builds trust. And I think as a producer, you're a people person, you should be anyway. And, you know, people like people like themselves, right? You know, and people, you know, so you don't tolerate fools.
So, uh, yeah, it's great. It's, um, yeah, it's quite fortunate from my point of view. I think it's, I think if you work in, in production or maybe, you know, kind of sales and marketing, you're certainly in those, areas where you are going to be dealing with decision makers eventually who've risen from junior to kind of studio leadership or, you know, kind of brand managers or sales managers, business development directors, all that sort of stuff.
So pretty kind of key senior stakeholders within the games development and publishing process.
Yeah, and I guess, looking at what you're saying, if you're not very good with people, or if you're more like, if you don't really care about people, and if you don't want to go into the detail and always self improve, don't become a producer.
Absolutely not. Because you're going to die. Yeah, absolutely not. Because you won't even, you
know, you might be able to fudge the CV, but you won't get past the interview process. Absolutely. You've got it.
What do you wish I had asked you?
What do I, I, I saw this one on the list and I thought, it's a good one, it's a good one.
I think we're I think the, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, but I think it probably is a topic that we need to discuss, uh, in the next couple of months, or there'll be a lot of discussion in the next couple of months as studios come back to work, because we're probably going to, you know, today we're going to get an update on the social distancing rule.
But it's going to go down from two to one meters. And I think it's that exploring how you create a healthy and dynamic team. If a lot of your team is based. So it's going to be a big challenge. And it's, I think, I think it's a, it's a topic that, well, I think come the end of the year, uh, where you'll find that some people are still, you know, cause I know that a few clients and studios have said, it's not going to be, it's going to be 2021 before back in the studio, just as a, you know, some have come back, some have come back part time, some are trialing full time.
I think it's going to be an interesting one that needs a bit of, uh, I guess it needs a bit of, uh, on the ground experience from different people and different conversations to see how that's going to work. Because again, studios are only as, you know, only as good as the people and the people only as good as the culture that you develop in the studio.
And culture doesn't just come from senior management. You see, you know, it's the responsibility of the team to create that culture as well. And how would you do that if you're all on the end of a Zoom call and you never meet? So it's going to be interesting on that.
It's particularly interesting globally, because of course, of the different rules.
I mean, for America, for example, it seems like most people are just going straight back into work. And, um, and over in Germany as well, I know that there are quite studios who are kind of going You know, half full and that sort of thing, whereas in the UK, we're still pretty strict. But I think that's what I've heard as well, that studios saying, oh, it'll probably be like October, November or next year when we open.
Personally, I think it's going to be sooner. Yeah, I think so. We'll see. Legally, I think a lot of companies are going to go, well, we're not going to risk it, basically, until, you know, Until we're absolutely legally in the clear, I think the larger studios will probably go.
I think it's like schools as well, right?
You know, uh, if it's, if the two, two meter distancing rule was to stay in effect for the rest of the year, it's completely impossible for the vast majority of development studios to fit people in. That's studios, which let's face it, you know, if you're particularly, if you're in London, the Southeast, uh, development spaces, it's expensive.
You don't just have a spare, uh, warehouse that you could dump it over 200 people in. So it's impossible to get your dev team socially distance in a safe environment, a meter. You probably find that a lot of desks, you could probably say, Oh, pretty much a meter anyway. So, you know, you could, uh, you know, So alternate shift patterns and stuff like that.
And again, you phased your, you, you kind of, where set teams were in one day and then they was in another day. You did, you know, you, you swapped over your two day. If you went to a two day remote working pattern, I think that you'll find that a lot of people. After this announcement, we'll be now more proactively looking at their, uh, I guess, kind of phased return plans.
Let's just put it that, but yeah, I think if the two meters stayed, there's no way that people could come back before next year. Um, for kind of January. So, uh, it's interesting. It's interesting. It's going to spark a lot of conversation with the, uh, today's press conference at five o'clock, I think. And a lot of question marks, uh, you know, particularly for us as well.
So it's something that we're looking at at IVARC. So, uh, yeah, we've, uh, it's going to be an interesting one.
So you guys are not looking to come back anytime soon, you're going to look at what happens today. I think, you know, based on
what happens today, I think that's going to determine what we do. But I think so, I mean, I've, you know, me and the senior management team have been probably working in the office a couple of days a week anyway, because I just prefer it.
I'm a people person. You know, uh, I like being, I like the team, but I've been around people, you know, having those anecdotal conversations that you can help get that extra couple of percent out of someone's day. Uh, and I think certainly again, there's your Kanban board. We love that. We love that. Love the Kanban board.
I love the Kanban board. I love the monday. com. It's all there. You know, if it's managed on there these days, but, uh, yeah, uh, I think that potentially, uh, You know a phased return over the next three months Uh, but long term again is something that we're potentially looking at as well There's a lot of meat to be put on the bones, but that kind of split week between remote and in the office I think is something that we are more than open to looking at and developing over the next two to three months
That's interesting.
I I wonder how much um money saved on say relocation Funds and things like that. How much people are looking at what they could save if they hired in different ways, and if they could then reinvest that into some kind of best practice infrastructure to support remote working better. I think one of the problems is it's difficult to actually spot what that infrastructure might look like.
Cause best practice. It hasn't been trialed like this before, not en masse like this. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of new stuff. And
there's all sorts of health and safety things, right? You know, it's like if you're working from home full time, you have to have home insurance that covers that and stuff like that.
And short term, I think that No one's got that. No one's got that. No one's got that. You know, obviously I've got that at the moment and you've got that. Um, but long term, again, people, it's not as simple as just, uh, you know what, take your kid home five days a week. You know, if you're, if you, if you've got a two day a week pattern, you can maybe get away with that.
But full time remote, there's then an additional cost that, Yes, studios are going to be able to save on relocation, but there's going to be a cost on the candidate side that studios just will say, well, that's part of the, part of the gig, right? You know, if you're working from home, it's down to you to, uh, you know, it's probably going to cost you whatever the electro extra is in electric gas, uh, internet, yada yada.
That's, that's part of the deal. So you've got, you've got to look after that, but you can come in if you want, because we've got a space for you here, so it's up to you. So it's, uh, There's a lot of factors like that that I see as a business owner, I've got to think about, but I think that a lot of people who, you know, aren't in that management and leadership situation like, you know, like yourself or me, that they don't consider that it's not just black and white.
So there's a lot of stuff that you need to think about and health and well being and all that sort of stuff is, again, of paramount importance. importance to us. So, yeah, it's, uh, there's a lot of things that need to be considered over the next couple of months. And that's going to be the same for studios as well, right?
Before they make a definitive, this is what we're going to do from day one. Whether that's September, October, November, January
onwards for the foreseeable. Um, what's next for you and for Argos? Yeah, absolutely,
yeah. I mean, obviously there's, there's, the challenges we just spoke about over the next two to three months.
The, um, migrating from an entirely on site, uh, In office environment to maybe one that revolves about a bit more flexibility, uh, when it comes to remote working again, very, you know, we've got a chat in five minutes about the where we're just kicking off this. So, but, uh, that's gonna be something that develops over the next two to three months.
Uh, But we've got a lot of growth plans early and really, you know, we've, we're 22 people at the moment and we want to be 30 people by this time next year, uh, kind of, kind of June to December next year. So it's, you know, again, those hiring or having this environment where we allow a split between remote and on site allow us to kind of hire more experienced people.
Potentially you have got games recruitment experience, you know, ACI based in Sheffield, you know, there's outside of Sumo and maybe people at plus net and stuff like that. There's not a big tech industry, so you're not going to get a big, uh, service industry at the same time. So it's, it's difficult for us to find games industry or IT or tech recruitment experience.
So it's something that we've considered is. throughout what if we can hire remote recruiters who are based not just in different parts of the UK but in different countries as well that have got games industry experience, uh, could we look at them full time remote with that experience? Maybe, and that's something that we're to consider.
And if there's anyone listening to this who's got that sort of experience, you know, I'd be interested in having chat to them. Definitely. But, uh, yeah, there's a lot of exciting challenges. You know, it's been our best year ever. Uh, you know, we've probably done something like 185 hires, I think pretty much over due July, 2019 to June.
So it's been our best year ever. Uh, and we've got a great
congratulations.
Good. It's been a great young team. Uh, we've got a great young team. We've got a fantastic senior management team and you know, the really exciting thing as well is. You know, we've mentioned James who is one of our marketing assistants or execs.
We've got a fantastic internal marketing team of five people which allow us to, uh, run and promote stuff like our podcasts, Search for a Star, Rising Star, uh, you know, Grads in Games tour and, you know, push out a lot of the production mailer and make that look a little bit more polished and the, you know, the various different disciplines and kind of help us Have a lot more touch points with candidates and clients as well.
So it's exciting. I think we've got a great core team and yeah, we're looking, we're still looking to expand and yeah, onwards and upwards for the rest of 2020 and 2021. Definitely. Hopefully, and hopefully GDC's on next year because I've never been to San Francisco and that was, that was biggest disappointment about COVID.
So, haven't you? Over, that was it, 13 and a half years and I finally got my seat on the plane. And COVID happens. So, uh, who knows next year? Who knows?
Mate, you're going to enjoy it. Maybe I'll see you there. Um, it'd be nice to have a beer at last. Yeah, definitely. Um, so I better let you go, mate, because you only got three minutes.
I just, I'm really grateful. Thank you so much. This has been really lovely to talk to you. And you've said a lot of really great stuff and I'm sure people will find it useful. Thanks
for inviting me to be part of the podcast and, uh, yeah, I hope it helps. Helps people and gives them some valuable advice and makes them think about some of the challenges that are coming up.
Thanks for listening. As always, we really appreciate your thoughts and feedback about the show. You can reach out to us by visiting game production. com's podcast pages and leaving comments under each episode. We have a Facebook group and YouTube channel that you can find linked from the website. If you want to contribute or fancy a chat in the future, we'd love to hear from you.
