00:00:03
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Tuesday, March twenty five, twenty twenty five. Don't tell Donald. Defense Minister Richard Marles says Labor will only beef up defense spending by one billion dollars in today's federal budget. That's despite American calls for Australia to substantially boost what we spend on defense. Come back to the front on Tuesday night to hear all the news from Labour's budget, the one Anthony Albanezi hopes will set him up for a second election victory. You can read all our analysis and scoops all day at the Australian dot com dot a U. Police are seeking a personal safety intervention order on behalf of one Jewish Australian lawyer after a series of social media posts made by another Australian Jewish lawyer. The two women with differing opinions on a very hot debate. Both women claim they're fighting for the same cause, so why have they landed in a court room? That's today's episode.
00:01:15
Speaker 2: Zionism is inextricably linked to Judaism, no matter what a tiny fringe minority of Jews led by Sarah Schwartz pretending to be a legitimate Jewish Council.
00:01:24
Speaker 1: Tell you this is an Instagram post made by campaigner Zara Cooper in early March. We've used a voice actor.
00:01:34
Speaker 2: Almost all Jewish people are Zionists. The word Zionist is another word for jew.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Zara Cooper is a former corporate lawyer from Melbourne who started a shoe company and now runs an advocacy group called Digital Defense. She's Jewish and so is one of the people she's criticized on social media, another Melbourne lawyer named Sarah Schwartz. Schwartz is the executive officer of an organization called the Jewish Council of Australia. Cooper has taken aim at Schwartz, accusing her of.
00:02:08
Speaker 2: Being out partying with insta famous jew hater extraordinaire Clementine Ford.
00:02:13
Speaker 1: And now this dispute is hitting the court this morning, that's Tuesday, Victoria Police will be in Melbourne Magistrates Court applying for a personal safety intervention order on behalf of Schwartz to protect her from Cooper.
00:02:30
Speaker 3: This is quite an escalation of this dispute that's happening between two Jewish women on social media. Some of these posts may have been negative towards Sarah and towards the Jewish Council of Australia, but the question is whether that warrants an intervention order that is protecting someone's safety.
00:02:51
Speaker 1: Joina Panagopolis is a journalist with The Australian and she and our colleague Liam Mendez have been reporting on this court action ever since October seven, twenty twenty three, when her mass fighters went over the border from Gaza into Israel and attacked Israeli settlements and civilians, triggering an almighty military assault from Israel on Gaza. There's been a difference of opinion bubbling away within the Australian Jewish community. To put it simply, it's this, if you're Jewish, do you also automatically or at all support Israel. Some Jewish Australians, and this includes the mainstream Jewish organizations like the Executive Council of Australian Jewy and the Zionist Federation of Australia. They have fiercely backed Israel's right to defend itself. They say the vast majority of Australian Jews would agree that no matter how sad the carnage in Gaza has been. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and if it doesn't eliminate her mass, its citizens can never live in peace. And then on the other hand, and there's the Jewish Council of Australia, which describes itself like this on its website.
00:04:06
Speaker 4: We provide an independent, expert Jewish voice supporting human rights and opposing anti Semitism and racism. We support Palestinian freedom and justice and are united in our opposition to Israel's continued policies aimed at the destruction of Palestinian life.
00:04:28
Speaker 1: These are two very outspoken women. Clearly they're not shy about sharing their opinions. They've both gone and created social media presences and in Sarah Schwartz's case, a council to express their very strongly held views about the conflict in the Middle East. It's interesting to see them now in this mode of statements through the lawyers, isn't.
00:04:50
Speaker 3: It It is? And they both say that they are in a way fighting anti Semitism, but the way that they do it is opposite and so different.
00:05:00
Speaker 1: So both parties.
00:05:01
Speaker 3: The goal of their Instagram pages and their movements or campaigns is to fight anti Semitism. On the one hand, Zara Cooper's camp, it is that Zionism is the belief of the majority of Jewish people in Australia, And on Sarah Schwartz's side is that you can separate Zionism from Jewish identity. And these things are playing out differently in both these Instagram accounts.
00:05:30
Speaker 1: Joe, it seemed like it was difficult to get information out of both of these sides about exactly what was going on and how they feel about it. They're being very cagey, aren't they.
00:05:40
Speaker 3: So both parties appear to be very controlled about what they were saying. They definitely wanted this to play out in the courts. On Tuesday rather than saying too much to the media, we got statements from both sides. On Zara Cooper's side, it was clearly a statement that had gone through her lawyers and it was basically saying that this is not a for the courts. And then on Sarah Schwartz's side, she said this was a matter to leave up to police. You can tell what's going to be argued in the courts. One saying let's leave u to social media the other saying no, we need this intervention.
00:06:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things that's bubbled away in the Jewish community in disputes even within Jewish families, is some members accusing others of weaponizing the Holocaust. There is an accusation that if you say, Israel has to defend itself otherwise it's going to get wiped out. There are some members of the Jewish community who will say, we can't invote the Holocaust every time Israel is threatened, and the history of the Holocaust doesn't justify everything that Israel does. Zara Cooper really went there with the Holocaust in her post, didn't she.
00:06:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, we haven't seen one of the most contentious posts that the police allude to in the complaint, which is the claim that Sarah Schwartz's face was in onto a train that was meant to be going to a concentration camp. And the idea invoked was that Sarah Schwartz is working for the other side. That in Nazi Germany there were Jews that supported Hitler initially, and the idea was that they were taken on the same trains to these concentration camps as all the other Jews, and that was one of the sort of images invoked by Zara Cooper. It appears on her Instagram feed and something that the police have expressed as something Sarah Schwartz is really upset about and can't reconcile.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that idea that if you are Jewish, the enemies of Judaism, the racist the anti Semites, will come for you in the end, just like all the other Jews, that it doesn't matter what you say. Now, this is the Zara Cooper kind of perspective, isn't it.
00:07:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you can see both women Jewish. Obviously they have very different political ideologies. But I mean invoking one thing on the other, for whichever sort of side you take, is probably hard to stomach. So either way, whatever sort of political view you take as a Jewish person, invoking the Holocaust is obviously a very serious thing.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: Coming up where opinions clash with freedoms and how this has wound up in court. For nearly a year, the conversation in Australia has been about social cohesion and hate speech. What are people allowed to say in which forum to whom our chants like from the River to the Sea, Okay, have certain artists or thinkers been silenced or deplatformed, and now we're saying an online conversation become a police matter. Just like a lot of the reporters of The Australian, ever since October seven, twenty twenty three, you've been involved in covering the way this has played out in Australia, the big Street marches, the disputes that are going on, say within universities. It's amazing, isn't it that it's still so hot eighteen months or more on, Yeah, it is.
00:09:35
Speaker 3: And people just have such incredibly strong views and opinions on this, be that the pro Palestinian side or Jewish people who are afraid for their lives and are just moving around in the world. And you can just see how it's very emotional for everyone involved. And obviously you can take a political stance, but at the end of the day, when it boils down to is just emotions and safety and feeling like you know what's right and what's wrong.
00:10:11
Speaker 1: I hope you won't mind me saying that you're pretty young, you're a digital native. You're a member of the generation that old people like me would say are obsessed with social media. That you live on your phone. Your generation is very comfortable communicating in that sphere. But these communications that we're talking about that are going to be in court on Tuesday, these are not really young people, are they. These are adult women.
00:10:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are adult women who feel very strongly about this cause. On Zara Cooper's side, it's what are perceived as bullies and anti Semitic people and people who don't want social cohesion in Australia, and that is what she on her Instagram page believes that she is fighting for. And then on the other side, it's trying to have this voice for maybe a lesser heard group of Jewish people. Be that right or wrong, and both are just very passionate about that, and it comes across in the posts. When you look at Zara Cooper's Instagram, it's capital letters and everything's bolded, and there's really intense imagery and the criticism is repeated and repeated, and that's how she's getting her message across to her some six thousand viewers.
00:11:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:11:32
Speaker 1: So for a lot of younger people, social media might be a retreat or a place to totally be nostalgic or to have fun. Yeah, for a big group in our population, that maybe this is more so with slightly older people. Do you think that it's very serious?
00:11:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's a way to campaign and to do something when I guess there's no way, no other way to get that message across. If you feel like the government's not listenstening to you, or the media is not listening to you, this is your avenue to get your message across. And the way you're going to do that is to be, you know, as a motive as possible to cause a scene, to make noise and that so I think what's coming across in these Instagram pages.
00:12:20
Speaker 1: Join a Panagopolis is a reporter with The Australian. You can follow that case live all day today and of course don't forget on Tuesday evening come to The Australian to make sure you're the first to know about what's in the federal budget. Check us out at the Australian dot com dot au
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Tuesday, March twenty five, twenty twenty five. Don't tell Donald. Defense Minister Richard Marles says Labor will only beef up defense spending by one billion dollars in today's federal budget. That's despite American calls for Australia to substantially boost what we spend on defense. Come back to the front on Tuesday night to hear all the news from Labour's budget, the one Anthony Albanezi hopes will set him up for a second election victory. You can read all our analysis and scoops all day at the Australian dot com dot a U. Police are seeking a personal safety intervention order on behalf of one Jewish Australian lawyer after a series of social media posts made by another Australian Jewish lawyer. The two women with differing opinions on a very hot debate. Both women claim they're fighting for the same cause, so why have they landed in a court room? That's today's episode.
00:01:15
Speaker 2: Zionism is inextricably linked to Judaism, no matter what a tiny fringe minority of Jews led by Sarah Schwartz pretending to be a legitimate Jewish Council.
00:01:24
Speaker 1: Tell you this is an Instagram post made by campaigner Zara Cooper in early March. We've used a voice actor.
00:01:34
Speaker 2: Almost all Jewish people are Zionists. The word Zionist is another word for jew.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Zara Cooper is a former corporate lawyer from Melbourne who started a shoe company and now runs an advocacy group called Digital Defense. She's Jewish and so is one of the people she's criticized on social media, another Melbourne lawyer named Sarah Schwartz. Schwartz is the executive officer of an organization called the Jewish Council of Australia. Cooper has taken aim at Schwartz, accusing her of.
00:02:08
Speaker 2: Being out partying with insta famous jew hater extraordinaire Clementine Ford.
00:02:13
Speaker 1: And now this dispute is hitting the court this morning, that's Tuesday, Victoria Police will be in Melbourne Magistrates Court applying for a personal safety intervention order on behalf of Schwartz to protect her from Cooper.
00:02:30
Speaker 3: This is quite an escalation of this dispute that's happening between two Jewish women on social media. Some of these posts may have been negative towards Sarah and towards the Jewish Council of Australia, but the question is whether that warrants an intervention order that is protecting someone's safety.
00:02:51
Speaker 1: Joina Panagopolis is a journalist with The Australian and she and our colleague Liam Mendez have been reporting on this court action ever since October seven, twenty twenty three, when her mass fighters went over the border from Gaza into Israel and attacked Israeli settlements and civilians, triggering an almighty military assault from Israel on Gaza. There's been a difference of opinion bubbling away within the Australian Jewish community. To put it simply, it's this, if you're Jewish, do you also automatically or at all support Israel. Some Jewish Australians, and this includes the mainstream Jewish organizations like the Executive Council of Australian Jewy and the Zionist Federation of Australia. They have fiercely backed Israel's right to defend itself. They say the vast majority of Australian Jews would agree that no matter how sad the carnage in Gaza has been. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and if it doesn't eliminate her mass, its citizens can never live in peace. And then on the other hand, and there's the Jewish Council of Australia, which describes itself like this on its website.
00:04:06
Speaker 4: We provide an independent, expert Jewish voice supporting human rights and opposing anti Semitism and racism. We support Palestinian freedom and justice and are united in our opposition to Israel's continued policies aimed at the destruction of Palestinian life.
00:04:28
Speaker 1: These are two very outspoken women. Clearly they're not shy about sharing their opinions. They've both gone and created social media presences and in Sarah Schwartz's case, a council to express their very strongly held views about the conflict in the Middle East. It's interesting to see them now in this mode of statements through the lawyers, isn't.
00:04:50
Speaker 3: It It is? And they both say that they are in a way fighting anti Semitism, but the way that they do it is opposite and so different.
00:05:00
Speaker 1: So both parties.
00:05:01
Speaker 3: The goal of their Instagram pages and their movements or campaigns is to fight anti Semitism. On the one hand, Zara Cooper's camp, it is that Zionism is the belief of the majority of Jewish people in Australia, And on Sarah Schwartz's side is that you can separate Zionism from Jewish identity. And these things are playing out differently in both these Instagram accounts.
00:05:30
Speaker 1: Joe, it seemed like it was difficult to get information out of both of these sides about exactly what was going on and how they feel about it. They're being very cagey, aren't they.
00:05:40
Speaker 3: So both parties appear to be very controlled about what they were saying. They definitely wanted this to play out in the courts. On Tuesday rather than saying too much to the media, we got statements from both sides. On Zara Cooper's side, it was clearly a statement that had gone through her lawyers and it was basically saying that this is not a for the courts. And then on Sarah Schwartz's side, she said this was a matter to leave up to police. You can tell what's going to be argued in the courts. One saying let's leave u to social media the other saying no, we need this intervention.
00:06:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things that's bubbled away in the Jewish community in disputes even within Jewish families, is some members accusing others of weaponizing the Holocaust. There is an accusation that if you say, Israel has to defend itself otherwise it's going to get wiped out. There are some members of the Jewish community who will say, we can't invote the Holocaust every time Israel is threatened, and the history of the Holocaust doesn't justify everything that Israel does. Zara Cooper really went there with the Holocaust in her post, didn't she.
00:06:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, we haven't seen one of the most contentious posts that the police allude to in the complaint, which is the claim that Sarah Schwartz's face was in onto a train that was meant to be going to a concentration camp. And the idea invoked was that Sarah Schwartz is working for the other side. That in Nazi Germany there were Jews that supported Hitler initially, and the idea was that they were taken on the same trains to these concentration camps as all the other Jews, and that was one of the sort of images invoked by Zara Cooper. It appears on her Instagram feed and something that the police have expressed as something Sarah Schwartz is really upset about and can't reconcile.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that idea that if you are Jewish, the enemies of Judaism, the racist the anti Semites, will come for you in the end, just like all the other Jews, that it doesn't matter what you say. Now, this is the Zara Cooper kind of perspective, isn't it.
00:07:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you can see both women Jewish. Obviously they have very different political ideologies. But I mean invoking one thing on the other, for whichever sort of side you take, is probably hard to stomach. So either way, whatever sort of political view you take as a Jewish person, invoking the Holocaust is obviously a very serious thing.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: Coming up where opinions clash with freedoms and how this has wound up in court. For nearly a year, the conversation in Australia has been about social cohesion and hate speech. What are people allowed to say in which forum to whom our chants like from the River to the Sea, Okay, have certain artists or thinkers been silenced or deplatformed, and now we're saying an online conversation become a police matter. Just like a lot of the reporters of The Australian, ever since October seven, twenty twenty three, you've been involved in covering the way this has played out in Australia, the big Street marches, the disputes that are going on, say within universities. It's amazing, isn't it that it's still so hot eighteen months or more on, Yeah, it is.
00:09:35
Speaker 3: And people just have such incredibly strong views and opinions on this, be that the pro Palestinian side or Jewish people who are afraid for their lives and are just moving around in the world. And you can just see how it's very emotional for everyone involved. And obviously you can take a political stance, but at the end of the day, when it boils down to is just emotions and safety and feeling like you know what's right and what's wrong.
00:10:11
Speaker 1: I hope you won't mind me saying that you're pretty young, you're a digital native. You're a member of the generation that old people like me would say are obsessed with social media. That you live on your phone. Your generation is very comfortable communicating in that sphere. But these communications that we're talking about that are going to be in court on Tuesday, these are not really young people, are they. These are adult women.
00:10:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are adult women who feel very strongly about this cause. On Zara Cooper's side, it's what are perceived as bullies and anti Semitic people and people who don't want social cohesion in Australia, and that is what she on her Instagram page believes that she is fighting for. And then on the other side, it's trying to have this voice for maybe a lesser heard group of Jewish people. Be that right or wrong, and both are just very passionate about that, and it comes across in the posts. When you look at Zara Cooper's Instagram, it's capital letters and everything's bolded, and there's really intense imagery and the criticism is repeated and repeated, and that's how she's getting her message across to her some six thousand viewers.
00:11:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:11:32
Speaker 1: So for a lot of younger people, social media might be a retreat or a place to totally be nostalgic or to have fun. Yeah, for a big group in our population, that maybe this is more so with slightly older people. Do you think that it's very serious?
00:11:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's a way to campaign and to do something when I guess there's no way, no other way to get that message across. If you feel like the government's not listenstening to you, or the media is not listening to you, this is your avenue to get your message across. And the way you're going to do that is to be, you know, as a motive as possible to cause a scene, to make noise and that so I think what's coming across in these Instagram pages.
00:12:20
Speaker 1: Join a Panagopolis is a reporter with The Australian. You can follow that case live all day today and of course don't forget on Tuesday evening come to The Australian to make sure you're the first to know about what's in the federal budget. Check us out at the Australian dot com dot au
