The Earworm Podcast - Episode 24 The Pop Superstar Industrial Complex [Season 1 Finale]

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Welcome to the Earworm Podcast, episode 24.
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I'm Patrick Cloud.
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I'm Brian Clark.
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And have you ever wondered what it takes to be a pop artist?
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We're going to dive into that today, the business of pop music and the entirety of it.
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I think it's really an interesting topic that doesn't get talked about enough because we assume that everybody knows who's who in the zoo.
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Yeah.
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But the truth of the matter is it takes hundreds of people to throw a show.
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And when a show gets thrown off course, you're talking about tons of people that lose their jobs, um, uh lost revenue for venues, etc.
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Yeah.
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So what inspired this episode, I think, was we were talking a lot about Ed Sheeran's recent uh issues with dropping his opening act and then his then his opening band and all the other opening acts dropped off.
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Um it just seems like a complete breakdown of management.
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I agree.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Uh and I think that the main thing about becoming a pop star is you gotta go to the crossroads.
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You have to do the proverbial sell your soul to the devil.
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That's right, or all of your morality and all your life.
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Or lawyer, whichever you prefer.
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Sometimes it's on Park Avenue.
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Could also be on Sunset Boulevard, you know, choose your location.
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Right.
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It doesn't have to be Mississippi.
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It starts with the hook and the late night rhyme.
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Producer makes the course.
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Well, we see so much, like and if anybody watched the the Taylor Swift uh Ares Tour show on Disney Plus, slight plug, not a sponsor.
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That was a really great inside look into how the operation works of a tour.
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And that's just one piece of the business.
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Yes.
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There's when you're a pop star, you can't look at it as you being a musician anymore.
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You're really like a multi, multi-level, multinational enterprise, right?
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So we in doing research, we were looking at just all of the breakdowns of the different divisions of the business, right?
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And more to the point, recognizing that the majority of people who don't do this kind of thing for a living or or aren't in the music business for a living really don't have an idea of just how many people are involved in the logistics of maintaining a career for a band or a or an artist of of any genre.
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But once you get past, and we have to kind of define, I think it's on us to define what is a pop star.
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Right.
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And I think it's if you're playing to anything over 15,000 seats a night, that to me is like the barrier for entry.
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Right.
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So like a small arena.
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Yeah, small arena, and then up, I think you're on your way to becoming sort of that pop star slash icon band, whatever you want to call it.
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Right.
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But that level, because everything else below that is a whole different ball of wax.
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This is when the the proverbial snowball picks up steam for itself, and now you're at a different level.
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Right.
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And it's uh it's interesting because at the top level, at the stadium level, it's an even different b enterprise than being at an arena level or being, you know, somebody that's being pushed by a label, or you're a hobbyist entering the field for the first time.
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It scales up and snowballs in so many different directions, right?
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So so we wanted to actually dispel all of this for the audience just because I was talking to several people that didn't know the difference between a manager and an agent.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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So when we start talking about the the core management of a of a pop star, we're talking about probably a good five to ten people, but you got your manager, right?
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You have uh all of your artist development people, so AR spotting trends, um, you have your initial lawyers and all of those things to build your core team to protect all of your IP, right?
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Yeah.
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So the lawyers, all of that.
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But then so from there you have an artist team, and that's just kind of your baseline.
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Your manager is really gonna be the one that helps you guide and navigate the waters.
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And I say you do a Leepa.
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Um to manage all those things and help you decide on which direction you're gonna go for all of these different businesses.
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Yeah, and then you if you if once you scale out, you know you're probably gonna have a business manager in addition to your personal management, and then you're gonna have a publicist, then you're also gonna have an agent, and then you might have other and you know, other folks that are gonna really start to come on board.
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Yeah, and those are different different parts of the business.
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When you get to uh publishing and distribution, where you get your your publicist, your personal assistant is a huge thing though, too, to help you keep your calendar.
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I mean, when you're when you're at that level, there's so many people as you'll see as we break this down, there's so many people that you have to keep organized and have an assistant to do so.
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And those assistants get paid well, and they should, because I've seen they're putting in the most hours out of any of them.
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For very little gratitude.
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That's for sure.
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But they do stay employed.
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That's the good thing about being getting personal assistance.
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Once you get a good one, they wind up sticking with the artists for a long time.
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Yeah, or they don't, or they just bounce around and they they still do personal assistant work, but they just have different artists that they sort of service from time to time.
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And then one of the things that we also need to include before we get into the breakdowns of the businesses is um a lot of these folks don't just work for the one artist.
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A lot of them will have multiple artists that are that level at agent to be able to manage because sometimes it might take just a little bit of influence from that person, but even if they do it in two hours, that's another employee of that business.
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So yeah, and there's at a certain point there becomes a conflict of interest in the sense of how many clients does my manager have and what service am I getting from my manager?
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Because a manager could take a good manager could take 20% of gross.
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Yeah.
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That's a lot.
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Significant.
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And if they've got, you know, five or ten other clients that are at your level of fame or not, how much are you getting out of it?
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And then it becomes what's your relationship?
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And at the end of the day, this is all theoretically, uh, it's all about personal relationships.
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Yes.
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And the the artists that I know in any genre, really, the ones that I know that have had a team for a very long time or have used the same company for a very long time, they have very good personal relationships with them.
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So at in any given point, they can always recall a time in uh in their historic past where they'll say, We were taking a bath on this, but we did it because we love each other and we were able to make it through and you know they get to the other side where the grass is greener, so to speak.
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And it's a wonderful journey.
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Yeah.
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So when we get over corporatized and we have a huge churn and burn, then it starts to become like you know, you're an options trader for one of the large firms on Wall Street, and it's like put in an 80-hour week or leave.
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But there's a core of trust that has to be had.
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As with any like large business where you have a couple of hundred to five hundred employees, you know, the trust tree is really, really important.
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And we've seen a lot of instances of untrustworthy management in the past that has been widely publicized.
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Um, and then there's people management that don't aren't helpful in a lot of ways.
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There's some things where I can't believe get past the manager, right?
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Like I I think a great example is right now we have this artist, Stella Lefty, who, regardless of what people think about her, she has a team and she's being developed as an artist.
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Yeah, she's run into some issues where past management, I think at this point it's like five or seven songs that are like pretty direct like interpretations of other people's music.
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Yeah.
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And we saw it with with there's the Noah Khan song and greatest showman.
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But regardless of any of that, it's like, how did that get past the manager?
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It's hard to believe it's when you have people that are either unscrupulous or just in it for the money, yeah.
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You know, it can get past you, or you could get blinded by the dollar signs, like the wolf in Looney Tunes, where he gets the eyes pop out of his head with the dollar signs.
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Yeah.
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Um, and you can make awful decisions, and I think that goes in any business, but it can be ultimately damaging to the artist.
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In Stella's instance, it seems like it really didn't affect her because she just sold out her tour in 10 minutes.
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Um, but there's something to be said about that.
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So I first I want to talk about all of the people that it takes to create the artist, the brand, and the music.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Because there's a whole group of people that do different things.
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What would you start with if you were gonna say, all right, we're developing this artist and we're gonna get in the studio?
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What's the first thing that we want to do and who do we want to employ?
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Okay.
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So I think it's important for us to kind of set the stage a little bit squarely, at least from my perspective, which is we're not talking about an unknown person that's just now starting and trying to develop.
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We're talking about we're trying to develop an established act into this next level of superstardom.
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It's an important point.
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Yeah, it is.
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And I think that's the role of AR now is to make sure that they're kind of basing watching trends when you have an AR person on your team, is they're watching trends to help you decide, the pop star and the producers to decide what direction are we going to go with this music to sell it.
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Yeah, you know, and it's weird because AR was I know it's a touchy subject for you.
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It's a touchy subject for me, yeah.
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Um not because just because here here's what ends up happening, uh, just a sidebar, if you're not at that level where you don't have the metrics to validate you being on a roster at a label, then AR has a huge churn on personnel.
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And what will happen is that, and this has happened with with uh myself, and this has also happened with several of other musicians that I know that have gotten record deals and and does whatever, and it's just part of the game, you know, you just know this.
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But it sucks if it's a project you really believe in and it gets and it gets shelved.
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And this happens a lot.
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So for example, you may be a band that's kind of up and rising, and then all of a sudden an AR guy comes in and it's a young AR guy, you guys really strike it off, or whatever, and then all of a sudden this camaraderie happens and they work for the label, and the label's like, yes, we want to enter into a development deal.
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That's usually their first sort of like, no one's gonna sign you unless it's uh unless there's some interesting consequences or circumstances around that, I should say.
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So basically what's gonna end up happening is you're gonna develop this and then you're gonna be working, and then if the label goes, yeah, we're gonna green light a release, which isn't guaranteed, by the way, but they may sign you for a one album.
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They may sign, then we'll never sign you for one album.
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It's usually gonna be for five records and a negotiated first release.
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That's typical, because then the record company is not um overexposing themselves.
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So, and when you have a 90% failure rate, you can understand, right?
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Although I'm I will never be on the side of the record labels in that circumstance.
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But so Unless you own the record label.
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Yeah, but even well, the record label I own, you know, we don't operate that way.
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So it's a co-op.
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Everybody knows and the books are open.
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Um, but I'm very clear about what we can do and what we can't do.
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So that's a beautiful thing.
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Um, but in the traditional model, so what ends up happening is let's say six months goes by and your AR guy that's really brought you to the label and sort of been your cheerleader at the label because every band needs one.
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Uh, if he they go away, no one's gonna pick you up.
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You're tainted goods.
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Well, I guess it depends how far you are in the developmental process.
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No, sometimes it won't, because somebody else is putting their career on the line now by taking, shouldering that responsibility, and it becomes a cross to bear for them.
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Yeah.
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So more often than not, you're kind of done.
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And then you have to go through this whole divorce process of a relationship that never really got started.
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It's really awkward.
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Okay, so we're not talking about this.
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Yeah.
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So, so, so that's that's but that's AR in a nutshell.
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I mean, it it's that's where they live now.
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It's like they're in that developmental phase, they're looking out for trends, and they're trying to help steer you in the direction of what's the most valuable IP.
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I think, yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
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I think that AR has has modulated itself to the point where AR is short for artist and repertoire for those folks who who aren't familiar with the term.
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And basically, they used to be the ones that would go and discover unnamed talent, groom them, nurture them, work on their imaging and stage presence, and even you know, Barry Gordy did literally everything.
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You have to wear this, you have to make these moves, you have to record this thing.
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They're like the talent show judges.
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Yeah.
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They're like that's where they uh that's where they used to operate.
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It was like you'd see them at the shows, and then bands would get excited when all the AR when an AR person was at their show.
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Yeah.
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Or like South by Southwest became a big conglomerate of AR.
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So like all the bands would come to the South and plays because the AR people were just around.
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Yeah.
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Because those were ultimately the people that were pitching you as a talent to the record labels.
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Exactly.
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They were your cheerleader.
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But now they're a little it's like we said, it operates in a little bit of a different space just because of the way that music is consumed and it became an IP business at this point.
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Exactly.
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And the one thing that we can never let go of in this music of business, which is very sorted and very interesting, uh, it has very highs and very low lows.
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But one of the things that's interesting about it is that money talks.
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Absolutely.
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And if and of course it's like that in any genre, but but in a type of business.
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But in the music business, if you're making money, especially in a 90% failure rate, which is what the labels incur and shoulder, then you have leverage.
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So we're talking about an artist or band that is at that point where they're selling records.
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Yeah, and they've already been touring.
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They're gonna be able to do that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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They're doing their way up.
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So now it's odd because now it's like AR comes in now.
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Right.
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Like because you could you can you could fuck with the formula.
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You know, it's kind of like Coke and new Coke.
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It could be you could actually foobar it to the point where the fan base that's really sustaining them actually has an adverse reaction and goes wheel like this.
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And that typically happens with sophomore records, too.
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Like, especially if the first release was really good, the pressure on the band, the all of the different influences that you get, and they can bomb a lot of the times.
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And it's been proven over and over again.
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So let's talk about the the nature of making the record and who's who and who plays the parts, right?
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So honestly, you're gonna have your producer, your executive producer, or you're just your producer of the record.
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And what's the difference between the two?
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It's uh in this case, it's kind of like the film industry.
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An executive producer is the person with the money.
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Yes, they're the ones that are actually putting.
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They're shouldering the financial costs of creation.
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That's an executive.
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You know, they're providing all of the staffing, the studio, yeah, all of those kinds of things.
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They will be or make recommendations, but usually they're the ones that are designing that.
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But the record producer is the one with the taste, right?
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And or a track record of success.
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You know, there's lots of different types of record producers, and we're we'll do a whole episode on the art of being a record producer and talk about some of the great ones in the past.
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They range.
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You could have someone that's very uh very quiet, that records everything and allows for experimentation, like a Rick Rubin type of approach, or you could have a Mutt Lang, which is hyper-focused, OCD, remembers every single take, and you might play four bars for five hours and drive yourself absolutely.
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Or it's like being the director of a film, right?
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The the the producer is kind of like the director of the film.
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It's it's not an uh an anagram for the producer of a film.
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That's a very different thing.
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But the producer of a record is more of like your Steven Spielberg, your George Lucas.
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The director, yeah.
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Is more of like the director as the is the is an uh analog for the producer.
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Yes, that's right.
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So so you have a producer, they're in charge for the most part.
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When they're in the studio, the artist, the artist is in charge.
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They're made to think that they are.
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But the producer is actually in charge.
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They're the one that's saying, hey, I need a mic on this, I need this on this.
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So that's where you have under your producers your engineers.
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Yeah, I mean, and this is where I spend the majority of my career as in addition, is producing and working with other artists and bands and everything else, and then also engineering and and being an artist.
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But I was like, Because there's an art in itself in knowing the engineering.
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Oh, dude, putting where the mics are placed and what kind of keyboards you're using for.
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:45.200
Yeah, full nerdfest.
00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:45.919
I'm all in.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:53.200
There's a whole series of Brian doing this on Inside Blackbird, talking about just really this wonderful engineering stuff.
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:54.000
I highly recommend checking it.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:55.519
I named it Inside Blackbird.
00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:56.799
I worked on that as my baby.
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.120
Yeah.
00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:58.159
Um, yeah.
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:03.120
But uh, but basically, what we want to look at is yes, you have the producer.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.200
The producer's main role, though, is the hub.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:09.519
He becomes the hub or she, um becomes the hub or whatever pronoun.
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.679
Um, but they become the hub of uh I don't want to offend anybody.
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:30.799
Um they become the hub and they be they basically act as um intermediary between the artist and all the outside influences that the artist is connected to, specifically management, label, anything else that's happening, they have to be there.
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:39.360
In addition to share the uh hopefully they share the vision with the artist on as to what artistic expression that they want to try to capture over X amount of time.
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:39.679
Right.
00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:45.200
And they need to keep it in budget and they need to coordinate everything, and they need to make sure that everybody gets fed.
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:58.240
The most important thing you can do for those of you who are thinking about ever getting involved in record production, the best advice and the most important decision that you will make in any day that you are working with a client, the most important decision, remember this.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:16:59.440
What's for lunch?
00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:00.399
What's for lunch?
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:01.600
That's important in any business.
00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:03.279
That that is the most important part.
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.000
And you know how I get.
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:04.559
Oh, yeah.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.480
I mean, it's like that's the most if I know what we're having for lunch, I'm good.
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:08.799
Yeah.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.599
Because when we get hungry, no thought process.
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:11.839
Right.
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:12.880
It's already been worked out.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:13.440
The food shows.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:15.039
So the creative juices get sucked in.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:15.440
Right.
00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.400
The band eats, and if they want to keep working, you're like, hey man, the food's here.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.000
You just go as long as you want, right?
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:20.960
And it's a beautiful thing.
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:26.480
When the food's not there, massive train wrecks, people get hangry, it's all kinds of fireworks.
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.279
So a lot of the time there's gonna be a runner at a studio like this that's gonna be in charge of craft services or whatever.
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:32.640
And they're important and getting snacks.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:33.119
And they are important.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:34.240
Runners are incredibly important.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.319
They're the ones, go to guitar center, I need this thing.
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.119
Go, you know, I need you to bring this to get fixed or whatever.
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:40.559
It is, they're they're critical.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.599
I've dealt with so many of them just over the years in my space.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.039
It's just is uh that's who we would interface with with a lot of the artists.
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.200
So so anyway, so we talked about that.
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:50.079
So engineering, right?
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.720
There's there's there's several different types of engineers, right?
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.359
So you have your uh your gear engineer, you have your mix engineer, right?
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:08.960
Because a lot of the times the producer isn't even gonna be touching faders, he's gonna be telling the engineer at front of house or at the console, and usually they're the the the uh senior engineer or resident engineer, depending on which studio you go to.
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:13.359
And then you have your mastering engineer, which we'll talk about in a minute, because that's kind of like the end.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.680
And then we also have like an immersive engineer that depending on how we're capturing content for this album.
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:26.160
Yeah, it's it I mean, in my experience, it's it's usually you have your producer, then you're gonna have your tracking engineer or your engineer, you have an assistant engineer.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:26.640
Right.
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.279
And then then, and that's just for the tracking period.
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.359
That's everybody's in the studio, we're making the record.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:37.599
And then you get to the next phase, which is oh, we tracked the record, now it needs to be mixed, boom, mixing engineer happens.
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:45.839
And then after the mixing engineer is done and all the mixes are approved by the band label and everybody else, uh, then it moves to the mastering engineer.
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:47.359
So you have that stage.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:47.599
Right.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:48.480
And then you're ready.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:53.119
And then the producer works with the mastering engineer to create the deliverables that you would present to the label.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:53.440
Yes.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:01.680
And typically you're gonna need to deliver, aside from artwork and packaging and all that, you need to be able to submit stereo mix and an immersive mix nowadays.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.079
Yeah.
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:03.279
Especially at this level.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.400
Yeah, and you may have to do um a half a dozen or a dozen or more different types of mixes.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:15.440
You might need a vocal up, you might need uh right, you need to have STEM mixes, but they'll have very specific STEM mixes.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.400
There's all kinds of deliverables that you would work out in advance.
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:25.440
The net is that whenever you're producing a record at this level, you are going to be forever tied to that project.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.960
And until it is being toured, you're then you could probably take your hands off the wheel.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:36.480
But when it gets toured and maybe they want to do a live version of it or whatever, you know, you're you're always going to be tied to that project.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:36.960
Right.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.759
So so on the other end, in the creative space, you have your songwriters.
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:48.880
When we have these big artists, I mean you might have five to twenty different songwriters occupying your studio space over the period of recording.
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:50.000
It depends on the genre.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:51.599
Yeah, it totally depends on the genre.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:53.359
Country music, very much that way.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:00.480
You know, Nashville is a songwriter town first, and one of the things that we always say is it all begins with the song, right?
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.160
That's Nashville, you know, songwriters association, you know, the NSAI.
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:04.720
That's their thing.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:05.920
It all starts with the song.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:07.440
And it's and very much true.
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.799
If you got a really great song, you're gonna be able to do something with it.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.400
But other than that, you're gonna be putting perfume on a pig and it's just not gonna fly.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:23.119
So um, so you know, I think that that's really, really important to being able to understand the differences, and a good producer will be able to help choose a good song or whatever.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:34.559
And you know, the label folks uh depends on the the labels you're working with and the personnel, because a lot of these folks went to business school and aren't musicians and don't quite understand what a good song is.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.039
In fact, most of them might not even know what a song form is.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.319
Like, oh, is this an ABA?
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:39.200
Is it an abacab?
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:40.160
Is it 12 bar blues?
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:41.440
Is it a strophic form?
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:43.279
Is it you know through composed?
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.799
And we had an awesome episode about that just go check that one out.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:47.599
So you know what I mean?
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:53.200
So it's like it has to do with like all the stars have to align to where you can actually make this.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:59.759
But at this level, when you're making money, um, pretty much the artist will probably have some leverage and they may be able to go, okay.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:02.559
Now in Nashville, that's not necessarily a foregone conclusion.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.039
Tim McGraw is a great example, great, you know, country star, especially in the 90s.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:12.559
But for majority of Tim McGraw's albums, his road band never played on the studio records.
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.400
It was all session guys in Nashville.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:14.880
Right.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:25.119
Even though they were great musicians and and still are, uh, they were never allowed to play on the records because they didn't have that much until Tim got to the point where he was like, I want to use my band, my road bands.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:25.359
Right.
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.720
So Statute Musicians is the is the other key, right?
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.960
That's a big that's a big part of it, is doing that.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:39.759
And particularly for country music, but you know, for me, and you know I'm not a tremendous fan of modern country, especially now, uh, because it all sounds the same.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:47.519
And it's the same one, six, five, four, put those numbers in any order that you wish, that's gonna be the song on 90% of the stuff that's on the radio.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.119
I find it incredibly boring.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:59.200
And so for me, I'm I don't get nourished musically like I would if I was listening to Oceanside or if I was listening to right or if I'm listening to anybody that in a different genre.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:21:59.759
I need more.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.799
Yeah, I get that.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.480
It's a simple format.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:03.920
I have a guilty pleasure.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:04.400
Okay.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.559
And that's I do enjoy Morgan Wallen.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:08.000
Interesting.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:09.440
I like his songs.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.559
I know they're simple.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:11.359
I like his voice.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.240
I like how it's like it's almost like stripped down 90s hip-hop with country music over it.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.319
And there's something about that that I really enjoy.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:18.960
But you're right.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.880
A lot of it is pretty it's just kind of all the same.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.240
It kind of fills the same void.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.839
Even with the Stella Lefty, one of the songs was a Blake Shelton song.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:29.359
And I listened to the Blake Shelton song.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.480
I was like, this sounds like every other country song that's out there.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:34.960
You got your tropes that you gotta click off.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:40.160
So when we first moved to Nashville 20 plus years ago, I was writing for Sony and BMG.
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.400
And they were sort of, I was the freshman, and there was, you know, the whole class, and some of my friends were seniors.
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:48.960
They were already having platinum-selling singles and they were really, really kicking it.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:50.799
I mean, in a great way.
00:22:51.119 --> 00:23:08.160
But uh so I was writing with the other freshman guys, so to speak, and we would lock ourselves in a room for three hours at a clip, and we'd have to get our rofax, and it'd be like, you know, Carrie Underwood is cutting a song about, you know, they uh whatever, pickup trucks and puppy dogs, and it needs to be, you know, medium to up tempo, right?
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.559
Traditional country or something of that nature.
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:20.400
And so then we would sort of do all of that, and at the end of a week, I might have written seven to ten songs, none of which I would ever put on a record of my own.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:22.000
Just wildly divergent.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.000
So I'd unplug from that system.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:37.440
But what I see happen a lot in Nashville is a lot of the great songwriters of which um we still know, and good friends and great songwriters, they can't write the songs that they really want to write because they're writing for whatever the market is dictating.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.200
It's a corporate mentality.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.920
Yeah, I think I have a a tremendous respect for singer-songwriters that make it.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:44.240
Yeah.
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:45.759
Like like like Ed Sheeran.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.559
Or Nilakahan or Gregory Alan Izakov or you know Patty Griffin.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.000
I mean, we could that's my jam.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.480
Right.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.400
And and and there's a there's a whole other level of respect to that because they do a lot on their own.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:56.640
Yeah.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:05.119
Um, and I do I have a lot of respect for bands that rent a studio for six months and they live together and they work on the album with the producer and the engineer.
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:05.279
Yeah.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:07.440
And they don't and they just block out everything else.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:07.680
Yeah.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:09.039
There's a lot of respect for that.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.599
But when in the scenario that we are speaking about, yeah.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:12.319
I'm sorry, I can't.
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:14.000
It's hard for me to stand in that headspace.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:15.440
No, there's so many different stories though.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.839
Like that's that's a great thing about this industry.
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.160
So now we have the deliverables for the label.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:20.720
Yes, sir.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:21.119
Yeah.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:25.599
So now we have to figure out what it's going to look like when it goes to the consumer, right?
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.000
So now you're talking about whole other team.
00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:33.519
Building, we're building the identity of the artist or helping to continue to build the identity of the artist.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:33.680
Yeah.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:35.279
And what is the theme of the album going to be?
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:36.240
Yeah, what's the look?
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:36.880
What's the look?
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:37.599
What's the color?
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:37.839
Yeah.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:38.160
Right?
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:39.359
What are you playing towards?
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:39.680
Yeah.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:44.880
And so within packaging, you have a creative director that's kind of in charge.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.319
Kind of in charge, is in charge of that whole situation.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.480
They work for the manager, the creative director.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.559
They're the ones that help build the identity of the album.
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:55.279
Yeah.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:03.839
And mostly that's going to be dictated by a collaboration between potentially the artist manager, the AR person.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:10.799
The AR person, but mostly it's going to be whoever's running the account at the record label in the sense of who's assigned to that artist.
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:11.200
Right.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:27.200
So at that point, there will be lots of creative team meetings about what's the look, what's the feel, and there'll be lots of different covers floated and image looks, and you know, we think you should wear, you know, a purple dress and sort of be looking over your shoulder and everything else like that.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.799
It's tying public persona to the touring, right?
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:32.319
A lot of the a lot of what that is, right?
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.599
It can get that advanced.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:34.000
Yeah.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.160
I mean, and even brand, you know, collaborations.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:36.799
Oh, absolutely.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:43.839
So you're when you have the creative director, they might be talking with anthropology about a certain line of dresses that are going to come out that might have the artist's name on it.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:44.240
Yep.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:50.720
Or Tacova's might have a boot, you know, that that this that Morgan Wallins gonna wear and they want him to support Tacovas.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.759
There's all of that that goes into this this whole crafting of the brand and how that IP is going to flow.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:56.079
Yeah.
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.920
You have hair, makeup, cosmetic surgery.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:09.359
You have you have uh uh brand collaborations, you have styling, you have just all of these different things that go into place.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:16.480
And it will tie to what the tour looks like because usually when the when a pop star puts out an album, they reflect that album in a tour.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:16.799
Yeah.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:21.519
Um sometimes it's two albums, but it just depends, and they don't just play those songs.
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.759
It's it's usually a big show.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.119
So so in all of that, you have all of these people that come up with the packaging.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:28.720
So now we've got it together.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.920
We got the vinyl liner notes, we got the photography, right?
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.960
Yeah, there that's the packaging of all of it, right?
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:35.279
Yes.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.440
What the aesthetic of Spotify is gonna look like for your artist and Apple Music.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.319
Uh are you on an essentials record with any of these this music?
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.759
Yeah, there's just there's all of that.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.440
What playlists are is it going into?
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.640
How are we going to drive this business creatively?
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:58.960
Yeah, and then it goes into once the so you've you've done you've delivered the master, you actually have a an agreed upon uh packaging, and then now it's about promotion.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.480
You start hitting Kimmel.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:05.599
Not only that, but you gotta in certain markets you gotta figure out uh does radio make sense?
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:06.480
What type of radio?
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:12.799
Are we talking about a satellite radio or are we talking about a conglomeration of terrestrial radio too?
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.000
Country market the country market in particular is still very much driven by terrestrial radio stations.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:18.960
It is, yeah, absolutely.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:19.279
Right?
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.720
XM is doing a great job, and iHeartRadio doing a great job.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.680
I put radio on the internet.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:27.039
Exactly.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:28.480
So but uh but that's the thing.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.759
I mean, when you get into XM and everything else, that's satellite, it's digital.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.519
So the terrestrial is like old school.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:36.319
So it's not considered the same business at all.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:36.799
No.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:42.960
Well, it is in the sense radio, but it's it's not in the sense that it's it's all it has a whole an entirely different royalty scheme.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.240
So like a sample broadcast versus satellite broadcast.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:47.599
Yeah, and they pay differently.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:48.000
Okay.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.720
So that that brings us to another part of the business, right?
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.000
And that's publishing.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:53.920
Who owns the music, right?
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.599
Yeah, biggest moneymaker in the music business pub is publishing.
00:27:57.839 --> 00:27:59.039
Yeah, and you know a lot about that.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.599
I do.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:02.480
So let's start at the base, the base likes.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.319
Who are employed for that part of the business?
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:12.480
Uh as a publisher, it's well, the one this is the one area for an artist, regardless of level of fame.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:13.680
To be super savvy.
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:15.039
Like this is where you can make your money.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:20.400
Well, and and it's the one it's the one partnership that you will enter into majority of the time.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:35.200
You have the opportunity to enter into it in a harmonious relationship and not something that you are naturally in an adversarial position, which is the record label and an artist 100%, the DNA of that deal is adversarial 100% of the time.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:36.240
Even if they're playing like that.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:39.359
How that happens?
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:42.240
Yeah, because so in a publishing deal.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:43.680
Yeah.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:52.400
In a publishing deal, and by the way, the publishing company could be owned by the record label, which if you're an artist, you might that might be a good thing, could be a very bad thing.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:00.400
Um, you know, ask the Dixie chicks back in the 90s when Sony, you know, miscalculated and owed them$14 million if they weren't getting paid.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:01.119
That kind of thing.
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:02.480
Um this stuff happens.
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:03.920
Oh, there's plenty of instances.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.160
Oh my lord, it's it's the it's it's the road.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:06.559
Right.
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:07.440
It's what's been paid.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.480
So so what is the so what does the ownership look like in the publis in publishing?
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.480
So publishers do one thing.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:14.640
They they basically administer the copyright.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:26.240
So when a s when a person writes a song, the publisher doesn't own the song, they own the rights uh temporarily to exploit the copyright, which means that they're they're on your team.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.319
Their job is to go out and try to make as much money off of that song as possible.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:38.880
When a record company makes money in a traditional way, they now they have 360 deals where their hands in every cookie jar.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:30:00.400
But in the old days, they could only make money off of record sales, which means that in order for you to actually record your own song on your own record that you have been signed to do, the who if you wrote the song, whoever your publisher is needs to grant the record company the right for you to record your own song on your own record.
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:05.519
And the reason why that is, is because there's a thing called a statutory rates, 9.1 something cents now.
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.319
I haven't looked at the most recent one, but it goes up over time.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:32.000
Anyway, the point is without getting needlessly complicated, in a publishing world, they're there to not take ownership, they're there to control and help you make money off the song, which means they might want to license it for a Marvel movie, or it could be for local or regional advertising, it could be to help you with your new guitar folio published work of your badass solos published.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.960
That's publishing.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:43.200
So publishing can do everything from video games, putting your music in video games, to ringtones, to um folios, to putting it in a film or whatever it is.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.799
That's all in the realm of publishing.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.160
And publishing catalogs are worth lots of money.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:49.039
Yeah, for sure.
00:30:49.200 --> 00:31:04.319
And there's a you know, there the relationship between the publishing companies and the record labels um is is interesting because it kind of puts you the artist in a position where they can't do much outside of what they've agreed to.
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:11.119
So what I mean by that is an art an artist can't just walk in to a studio and do a collaboration with another artist.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:13.039
That's correct.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.799
Yeah, because it because of the ownership of the the product.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.359
And and that, in that sense, well it's complicated.
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:29.599
Um it's complicated because of the record label, because the record label is signing the artist to an exclusive recording contract.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:42.160
So if you wanted, if you're signed to a record label and you want to go do a uh a collaboration with another artist or band, you technically need piz permission from your record label to do that.
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:42.799
Right.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.680
So let's move to that part of the business, the record label.
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:46.559
Oh, Jesus Christ.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:51.599
Because we haven't even talked all of the things we've already talked about, we have not even talked about what a record label's function is.
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:52.000
Yeah.
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:52.559
Yeah.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:09.440
Um record labels uh are incredible entities that used to wield all the power in the business because they were the ones that could actually physically make your record first, and they were the ones that could actually ship it to a physical location and have it in stock.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:21.119
And that could be from rack jobbers like in truck stops or buckies, or you could be uh have an end cap at Walmart or Tower Records or whatever back in the days when people actually bought in the thing.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.720
So when you go into a record store now, um that's still kind of the vibe.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:26.559
You know, that's that's a part of that old tradition.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.680
Yeah, they're part of the distribution wing of your music, but they are also the investment wing of your business.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:32.240
They are.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:45.359
So typically when a when in the old days, and this is a little bit different now, things have started to change, but for the most part, the majority of record labels were responsible for funding the creation of the record.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.480
And then they were also responsible for any tour support.
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:52.480
Now, and in our example that we're talking about today, this is a very big deal.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:33:15.359
The company is actually, the record company is the one that's actually putting the gas in the prevost vans as they move down the highway, and they're the ones that are paying the band's salary, and everybody else, they're the ones that are bankrolling this tour, unless they have corporate sponsorships like Bud Light presents or Heineken presents, or they have some type of creative marketing thing, which has become the norm, especially for big tours.
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:16.960
And that's in a lot of the tour promotion.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:17.200
Yes.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:20.720
And we'll get to that's gonna be the next business that we talk about.
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:22.400
But the record labels just do this.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:29.519
They they're the ones that are gonna be the ones that are gonna be financially responsible for bankrolling it, but they're also the ones that are gonna be collecting the money.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:35.279
Now, in the old days, they could only collect money off of records sold and not returned.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.599
They used to have a money-back guarantee.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.480
So if somebody bought a stiff record like Chris Gaines, um look up Chris Gaines first.
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:43.200
Goth Brooks.
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.720
Um yeah, Goth Brooks.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:48.240
Um you'll you'll and I love Garth Brooks, by the way.
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:48.480
Yeah.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:50.799
Um, so amazing human being.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.240
But um, but that was just a an interesting sort of vanity project.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:59.440
Anyway, the thing is if it's stiffed, then what would happen is the record label ate that cost.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:03.759
And if you're signed to a record label and you get dropped, you don't owe the record label any money.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:06.960
It's like done, we've parted ways, you don't owe us a thing.
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:13.840
But if you stay with the record label and you're just getting by and you're not really f finding it, you can be, and this has happened.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:29.199
You could have a charting record uh, even in some cases, the example that we're talking about, you could have a charting record on Billboard that is doing well and have a sold-out tour and have very little money in your pocket as a band member because nothing's coming to you.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:32.960
Yeah, you're making money off of live performances and/or whatever else that you're doing.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:38.400
I think that goes to without saying that any failure of any of these one businesses can cause those kinds of problems.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:39.199
You know?
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:39.519
Yeah.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.840
So um I think it's really interesting.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:48.239
I think about, and we'll have an episode about Ticketmaster and and all of this, but I always think about street teams.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:49.119
You remember street teams?
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:49.599
Yes.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:08.000
So youngins, for you who don't know, pre-internet, the way that labels would get the word of the band to the people was they would they would get like uh young kids in the in those in those towns to print posters and go put them up on on th on things to promote shows.
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.039
They'd send them promo CDs to bring out and give to people.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:15.440
And this was just a it was like a free system for them to go about doing it.
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:23.920
Now we have the internet and distribution for all of for all of that stuff and influencers, and the whole that's a whole other business that we'll talk about later, is the whole influencer part of it.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:34.480
Um, but it's interesting to know now is so we talk about distribution and the creative part, the packaging, the the the capture, and the putting it all together and putting it out.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:43.679
So the only thing they're talking about now, which is the biggest business now, I would assume it's probably not, I would assume it's the biggest business now is touring.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:45.119
Yeah.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:51.119
Because it used to be selling records made the money, and the tour was the ad for selling the records, right?
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.639
But now the records are an advertisement for selling the tour.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:55.119
Yeah.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:04.159
And then the and then the public gets scalped on the tickets, hence Ticketmaster and Live Nation, um, by paying all these exorbitant service fees that make no sense.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.000
Um, and their business model is completely screwed and upside down.
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:12.400
But but we know we're gonna talk about that part of the industry on another episode.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:24.960
Touring is an enormous part of the industry now, and when you're looking at your core businesses as a performer and an artist, that's where you'll make your money, especially on the high level, right?
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:37.280
But there's so many mouths to feed when you start talk talking about putting a tour together, and that's from preparing the tour, deciding on the choreographer, what the look is going to be.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:48.239
You gotta pay all those people in advance and have months of preparation, sometimes at a place like SIR or now newly rocked Nashville, which is a big rehearsal place here, um, to start prepping everything.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:53.360
And prepping everything doesn't even compare to the amount of people that it takes to put on a live show these days.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.039
No, there's so many moving parts.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:08.079
I just have to say that you know teaching about all this stuff and to try to do this in one lesson for me, it's really hard because we're glossing over so many intricate moving parts for each one of the facets that we talked about.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:17.360
So I just want everybody to understand that it's important to understand we're giving you like a real like cliff notes version of all this stuff and having fun with it.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:23.199
But um, but if you want us to drill down and really get into the nitty-gritty about each one of these facets, we're happy to do that.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:23.760
Let us know.
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:24.400
Yeah, let us know.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:25.760
So that's just an open invitation.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:26.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:27.440
Um so touring.
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:28.000
Touring.
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.920
Okay, so touring, yeah, when you get out on the road, you're gonna have a lot of expenses.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:37.679
And uh and so you got to figure out who's underwriting the tour and if it's the record label's responsibility.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:39.920
If it is, it's 100% recoupable.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:44.719
So if your tour costs you a million dollars, hopefully you're making well above a million dollars.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:54.400
If not, that's gonna go into a cross-collateralization fund with the record label, which means you owe them that million dollars, plus whatever it took to make the record and the record before that, and the tour before that, and so on and so forth.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:58.400
And that's why promoters are so important in this in this arrangement, right?
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:04.159
Every show stop and every tour stop, you're gonna have likely a different promoter in most of them.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.639
And the promoters are the ones that organize the show being being done.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:15.280
They they're responsible for ticketing, they're responsible for um some of the security parts at the at the events, too.
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:25.840
But um, but they're also the in charge of putting it on TV, putting it on the internet, and saying, hey, we're having a show at Raymond James Studio Stadium, and this is when it is, and blah, blah, blah.
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:33.280
So whenever you see those those uh commercials or ads on YouTube or whatever, a lot of those are done by a promoter like Live Nation.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:44.079
Yeah, and that's the problem because Live Nation is incredibly vertically integrated, which means that there isn't a healthy competition from other promoters to try to keep it service fees and all kinds of things down.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:52.719
So the face value of the ticket ends up becoming X amount of dollars, but then by the time you pay the service fees, you might pay two or three times what the face value of the ticket is.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:52.960
Right.
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:55.760
And there's a whole And the artist doesn't get any part of the health.
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:57.119
No, the artist doesn't make money.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:11.679
And I think it's important for people to understand that that the it what it does is it forces the artist and the band to lower their face value ticket price, which is not good for the artist and the band because it's taking money out of their pockets.
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:11.920
Right.
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:21.119
So it's a it's this balancing act, and then what you try to do is you try to make up for lost revenue if you're the artist or the band, you try to make up for it in other areas.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:33.199
But when you go on the road, regardless of the metrics and who's promoting your tour, whether it's a full live nation tour and they're gonna book every venue, whether it's a shed or a stadium or a nightclub, doesn't matter.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.840
They're gonna try to book it all because they keep all the money.
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.480
Yeah, um, and they make a lot of money.
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.320
And the the next level of that is okay, but what's the personnel look like?
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.480
That's and that's what I wanted to get to because this is where it gets insane.
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:48.639
Yeah, because you're gonna have a lot of different personnel.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:50.639
So we'll start with performative, right?
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:50.960
Okay.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.119
So you have the artist and you have the band.
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:53.599
Sure.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:54.000
Right?
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:54.400
Yeah.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:59.119
You have your dancers, if if if if you have you have your choreographer.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.480
Yeah, or the the lighting guys.
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:01.280
Well, because you have to do that.
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:01.840
We'll get to that.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:03.599
That's a whole the production part is a whole other thing.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.079
So in creative, you have all of these different things that are the performance aspect of it, right?
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:08.400
Mm-hmm.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.719
But then you have the technological people, and that's where it gets it starts to balloon.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:22.960
Because nowadays you have a front-of-house engineer, which is the that's another type of engineer who's basically responsible for what you hear when you go to the show.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:31.039
It's coming from that big console that you see sort of on the floor in the middle, sort of maybe 30 or 40 rows back from the foot of the stage.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.599
There's a bunch of people there behind a console, that's front of house.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:39.519
So front-of-house engineer is is in charge of what gets played over the mains at a show.
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:39.840
Yep.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:41.039
So whatever the main speakers are.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:41.440
That's right.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.239
So next to the front of house engineer, you're gonna have the monitoring engineer.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:44.480
Yeah.
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.280
And sometimes you'll have multiples depending on how big the band is.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:48.400
Or their egos.
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:49.360
Right, right.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:55.599
And uh and what they're in charge of is making sure that the artist can hear what they want to hear.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:55.920
Correct.
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:56.159
Right?
00:40:56.239 --> 00:41:02.719
So if they want uh to hear all just guitar in their monitor and them, they're always gonna want to hear them uh in their monitor, they can do that.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.119
So over a period of time when you're prepping for the tour, your monitor engineer is prepping with you.
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.280
There's like you have to get them ready to know your personality and how you operate.
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:11.679
That's right.
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:16.960
When you see an artist on stage and they're singing and they go like this, that means they're telling the monitor engineer, hey, I need more of something.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:18.719
Um so you have a lot of that.
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:24.320
So also you have your lighting engineers, which you also may have several, like depending on how much playback you have.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:33.199
You also play a playback engineer, we'll get to him, but you how much uh video content that you have and how much professional lighting that you have, you could have multiple lighting engineers as well.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:33.679
Yeah.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:36.880
So, and they'll work with you on the tour and tour with you.
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:37.519
Correct.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.039
You also have a playback engineer.
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:45.440
A lot of the times these days, with your uh with pop artistry and stuff, they're gonna have tracks that they're played.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:46.880
Uh, they're gonna have automation.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.639
So you may have a playback engineer that is in charge of the guitar effects, right?
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:51.440
And all of that happening.
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:52.079
Yep.
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.679
If you have a band, you're gonna have all of your text for each of the instruments.
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.320
You're gonna have somebody teching guitars, teching bass.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:59.199
Sometimes it's the same.
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:00.960
You're gonna have a drum tech for sure.
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:01.360
Yep.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:18.800
Um, and then uh so lighting, that, uh, that, that, that you're gonna have your stage manager that's in charge of the stage and everything that's happening on it, taking cues on a my on a headset, telling people what their cues are and their triggers.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:27.119
Um and then outside of all of that in technological, because you have your video production projection engineer.
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:29.440
There's so many different people that do the live sound.
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:33.679
You might have a wireless engineer that does all of the wireless uh RF banding.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:51.199
Yeah um but outside of them, there's a whole other layer of local staff that are gonna be doing the rigging, the trussing, the staging, all of your in-house production stuff that they we that the tour would use to put their stuff on top of.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:43:00.000
And they're gonna be unloading your trucks, which is a whole other staff of people of your truck drivers that are storing all of the gear that is for the tour.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:12.480
So at every stop, they have to do it in order, and it's everything is loaded and specifically and brought out specifically in a very specific order, and you have to make sure that you're managing and that's what your your stage manager is gonna do in helping with the trucks.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:17.360
Then you have your your your uh your director of transportation, right?
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.639
So, in order to align the trucks, and just just a note Taylor Swift tours with 98 trucks.
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:30.239
Just the the getting 98 trucks from point A to point B in an order at a time is a complicated management operation.
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:31.599
Yeah, yeah, it is.
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:39.039
I think it's important to understand that you know the the necessity to have a good tour manager is the most important thing.
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:40.000
That's the kingpin.
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.880
That's basically you know, sort of what the record producer was when you were making the record.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.280
The tour manager is going to be dealing with all of the headaches, everything.
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.880
They become the hub for all communication.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:58.800
It all goes through the busiest person on a tour, including the artist's personal manager and their business manager.
00:43:58.880 --> 00:43:59.760
They're still going to be having.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:09.679
Daily meetings with the tour manager to understand what was cleared, you know, and make sure that everything is working, all health concerns, everything else is going to come through the tour manager.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:10.079
Right.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:21.760
And then so the venue and the promoter locally, they are in charge of uh local security, first aid, uh seating, concession, right?
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.519
All of these can be negotiated costs that are that are that change hands.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:32.239
Like there, there might be a deal with the promoter for the artist where they get a portion of Bud Light sales because they're in a brand collaboration with Bud Light.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.840
So they have all of these different little nuance things about that tour.
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:50.239
And then I think it's really important for everyone to understand as well is how difficult of a balancing act that tour manager is running on a really tight wire at all times.
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:56.320
It's a it's a very short schedule to get in and out of a city and make sure that you're ready for the next one.
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:01.039
That I I've seen them do just amazing work in some of these big tours.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.760
These are some of the most creative people for doing this.
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:06.079
These are the folks that are the generals on the field.
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:12.639
These are the these are the guys that are giving the orders to the troops and making sure it becomes almost like a military-level thing.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:23.840
Because when you think about it, I've always comp basically compared it to this, but live sound, when you have a crew, when you have your road crew and your road manager, this is your elite special ops team.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.599
They go into a hostile environment, they have to extract a performance and get out with no one dying.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:34.000
And they have to translate their language to a local crew of probably 50 to 100 people.
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.760
No, and the local crew, depending upon what venue it is and how unionized they are.
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:38.719
Yeah, they can be great.
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:44.159
Um they can be very, very well trained, and then others are just gonna sit back and smoke a cigarette and go, I'm not gonna touch that.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:44.880
It's not my gig.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:45.199
Right.
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:45.599
Right?
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:46.880
And that's very real.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:46:01.119
And um, you know, like for example, when you go into a venue, you have to connect to tri-phase power, and that is incredibly high power, and that has you need to have the electrician at the venue connect your tour.
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:01.679
Yep.
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:06.639
They they basically are powering your tour, they're plugging your tour outlet into their wall.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.199
Right.
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:11.039
And so, and if they're not there, you're not playing a show.
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.800
You know, so someone has to do that.
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:22.320
So, I mean, it's like all of these things start to become logistical uh obstacles that need to be accounted for for the tour manager and for the road crew and everybody else.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.880
And then of course you get into what about inclement weather?
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:26.400
What about if a tour bus breaks down?
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:35.679
Oh, the back line's down, oh we lost our you know, we lost our fucking instruments in the the flight home from Sweden, it's on another flight, it won't be here for four days.
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:36.880
Okay, what do you do then?
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.960
Road manager, yeah, tour manager.
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:41.039
All those people get together, they figure it out.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:51.519
And the funny thing is about live sh live music in general, and why I have so much deep respect for these guys that do it, uh, is that the show must go on.
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:52.000
Yeah.
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:53.679
And it will happen.
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:54.000
Yeah.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:55.920
They will find a way to make it happen.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:57.280
It may not sound great.
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:03.119
You may be dealing with only one row of lights and half a PA, but by God, you're gonna have that show.
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:03.599
Yeah.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:09.360
And it's pretty amazing what they're able to come up with, the ingenuity that's involved in to try to do it.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:13.119
There's so many great legendary stories that are floating through my head about all this stuff.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:13.760
Give us one.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.280
No, man, it'd take too long.
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.119
But the but the thing is, is that it they I have so much respect for them.
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:24.480
And having a good front-of-house engineer, I can tell you, is is the most important thing.
00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:28.960
I don't really care too much about the monitor stuff unless you're playing huge, huge arenas and stuff.
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:37.360
Uh personally speaking, because I uh, you know, but when you're playing the ideal concert venue for me is 3,000 seats or less.
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:48.000
500 to intimate, you can still play with the real acoustics of the room and you can actually perform not at like breakneck volume level.
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:56.000
You can actually do it, you can mix on the stage, and you can have a guy that's running front of house that knows your that knows your show and they've got it all dialed in.
00:47:56.079 --> 00:48:00.079
And when that stuff works, man, it is a one of the greatest feelings ever.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:06.480
So before we move on to the next business, and I totally agree with you, I I love live music, I've been a part of it for a long time.
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:20.719
Um one thing that I really um want to stress is that a promoter can do any types of negotiation about, especially festival settings, about refunds for tickets when the show must go on, right?
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:32.480
Uh if it's an outdoor and it's at a festival and it rains, if the headliner plays for 50% of the time that they have agreed to play, they don't have to give any refunds and they don't have to give any money back.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:33.519
It still stays the same rate.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:48.000
So there's things like that that get negotiated through the lawyers and the production people to be able to have those stipulations so there is a guarantee so an artist doesn't wind up just losing all when they go and something, an act of God or something like that happens.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:48.880
Yeah, that's right.
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.199
So something that ties oh, where are you guys in?
00:48:51.360 --> 00:49:11.599
No, I was just gonna say, I mean, it just depends, you know, but because of the consolidation with Ticketmaster and Live Nation and everything else and just the the metrics that are involved in that, they negotiate this stuff and sometimes they just do a package deal and they basically say, Hey, look, you're you're Cage the Elephant, you're gonna do this show, we're gonna be playing to 10,000 seats a night, whatever, this is it, you're gonna be playing, you know, and then you do it.
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:12.880
They give them a lump sum.
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:15.840
They're like, This is your lump sum for the entire tour, guaranteed.
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.320
Right.
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:39.360
And then that puts stress on everybody downstream from that, particularly with the venues and the local promoters that may be sold so you know, shouldering that that that weight because if if rain comes through and it's an outdoor show or whatever happens or the band gets sick or whatever, then they the live nation guys could say, Well, that's that's on you to provide the guarantee for the band that night.
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:40.159
That's right.
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:41.920
And and boy is it ugly.
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:42.559
It is.
00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:46.559
But there is one business that can help make up for those those uh losses.
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:51.519
Porn merchandising, where the real money from the movie is made.
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:52.159
Yeah.
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.440
Yeah, merchandising is a whole other uh business.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:57.679
Right, but who's got their hands in that cookie jar?
00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:01.440
And with record labels now with 360 deals, they're gonna take a part of the merch.
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:08.639
Used to be you were able to sell your your merch at a show, um, regardless of the size, and that was sacrosanct.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.559
That was the band's take, right?
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:12.000
No one took a percentage of it.
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:16.400
Now with Live Nation and all of our you can see what my opinion is of these things, right?
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:23.920
But I'm just saying they now they now take a cut of merch sold because it's their venue, and they're like, no, we want to cut.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.559
Just like if you are a vendor and you are selling Mars chocolate bars, they're gonna bill Mars for that.
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:37.840
You know, so so they look at the band as not only someone who's bringing the show to them, but also if you it's merch totally separate, you might as well not even be the band in your mind.
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:40.320
And that's the association with merch and touring.
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:44.800
Now, now think about merch on a let's a web store, right?
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:48.079
So you have so the first thing, right?
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.039
You have artistic confluence, right?
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:52.079
Who's the artist?
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.800
What are the different shirts and the different posters and mugs?
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:55.840
What are they gonna look like?
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:56.880
Who's designing it?
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:58.079
You gotta pay that person.
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:00.639
Who is producing the merch itself?
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:03.840
Is it Apollo merch in Nashville or whoever?
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:06.000
Who is warehousing it?
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:07.760
Who is transacting it?
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.519
So you have all of these different people.
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:23.920
And a lot of companies like Apollo merch, shout out to uh Spielberg, uh, it's a company in Nashville, and what they do is they set up band stores for the bands that link to their their webpage, and what it allows them to do is allows the band to not have to carry inventory, right?
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:28.559
It allows them to not have to do customer service, take returns, all that kind of stuff.
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:30.239
Design, they do all of that.
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:33.760
So that whole merch plug is a big part.
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.119
Now, does the artist get a lot of the merch money?
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:38.960
Average is around 40%.
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:44.800
So when somebody buys$100 worth of merch, they're gonna get$40 worth of it about because you got a lot of people to pay.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.639
You got to pay the merch team, the band store, you gotta pay uh the record label, transaction fees, and oh yeah, all of that, transaction credit card fees, etc.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:57.679
And that's a complicated business on its own, just to have a t-shirt store, right?
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:05.920
So having um uh an outlet like that that allows to employ all of those people instead of you is a good way to do it and just pay in a percentage of the merch that's sold.
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:06.559
Yeah.
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:07.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:28.960
You know, merch is a great thing, and particularly if you are able to develop uh a real marketable chain, like if you're KISS or the Rolling Stones or The Grateful Dead or your Taylor Swift, or you have something that has a real brand and a logo that that really encapsulates that, you know, sticks, Kansas, you know, you think of a lot, a lot of the maiden.
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:30.559
Yeah, maiden, AC DC.
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:32.800
How many AC DC shirts are sold a year?
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:33.119
Right?
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:33.840
Globally.
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:34.239
Yeah.
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:34.639
Yeah.
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:35.519
I mean, that kind of stuff.
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.079
It's a huge it's a huge Taylor Swift the flamethrower.
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.360
That's all I that's all I think about.
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:39.840
Right.
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:41.360
The kids love this one.
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:48.239
Okay, so we've talked a lot about all a lot of the different businesses that are involved.
00:52:48.480 --> 00:53:00.400
So whenever you have so many people in the cookie jar and doing and with different responsibilities and accountabilities for themselves, you gotta protect yourself and you gotta protect all of them.
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:04.400
And by having a team of lawyers, yes, that's how you do it.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:10.559
And a lawyer I know lawyer is a bad word uh in a lot of circles, but they are kind of the shield.
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:23.440
They're the ones that are gonna help defend you from things that can go wrong, whether it's lost revenue at a venue or somebody stealing your music and and uh putting it on the internet or however, these lawyers keep everything together.
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:25.599
So the entertainment there's a team of lawyers.
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:34.480
You're gonna have your entertainment lawyer who's kind of in charge of navigating the publishing and the record label and helping you work through all that and protecting.
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.360
Yeah, protecting you there.
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:41.199
So you'd also have either an accountant or a business manager.
00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:41.519
Yep.
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:44.639
That is kind of on the legal team in a lot of ways, I think.
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.320
Working with the entertainment lawyer to make sure that everything is good collaboration.
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.039
Very good.
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:49.280
Yeah.
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.800
Um, so you have that, and that's your money, man.
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:58.639
You gotta have you gotta have your business manager that's in charge of making sure that everything is getting to your account, you know?
00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:58.800
Yeah.
00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:10.400
And ensure that your taxes are getting paid appropriately, any different contractual uh contracts that you have to deal with, brand collaboration contracts, influencer contracts, all of those different things fall into that.
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:13.920
And they help you um navigate your money.
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:20.079
And honestly, like at that level, when when there's so much money involved, it's like some of these artists don't even know how much money they have.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:25.039
They just and they'll call their business and business manager and say, Can I buy a Roll Choice?
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:27.440
And the business manager will be like, Yeah, no problem.
00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:28.239
Here's your budget.
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:32.000
You know, it's like and they they track to make sure that you're in a good position.
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.639
Yeah, and um, I think that's an incredibly important part.
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:37.599
And a lot of artists have skipped on that before.
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:41.599
Okay, they're like, My parent, my mom's gonna do it, or my brother's gonna do it.
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:42.159
Yeah, right.
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:43.920
And they puts you in a really weird position.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:48.079
And we've seen a lot of horror stories over the years of bad management.
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:48.559
Right.
00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:59.199
Bad management is the one thing that's why we were saying earlier the most important decision that you're gonna make at this level is your management team.
00:54:59.360 --> 00:54:59.920
Yeah.
00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:12.880
And but your personal manager uh is going to be the one that will typically be on point with negotiating or uh having a uh dialogue with your financial, your business manager.
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:13.360
Yeah.
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:24.079
And and boy, if your manager has ulterior motives, your business manager may be giving the right information, but your manager may be skimming stuff off the top.
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:40.880
He could be funneling money to his horse breeding or to various um sundry activities that may be legal or illegal, as in the case of, say, Billy Joel, you know, where his brother-in-law from his first wife, Billy's first wife, was his manager.
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:47.519
And, you know, I mean, we're talking$90 million lawsuit that Billy ended up filing to try to get this right.
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:47.760
Wow.
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:58.159
And so people take their eye off the ball and they they trust him, and then they realize, wait a minute, you know, and if and if the you know the the one thing that most people want to do, and this is the weird thing about fame in a lot of ways.
00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:09.599
I think about Michael Jackson, you know, in this case, when he was at the height of his fame, he was absolutely and and to some extent, Taylor Swift to me is at that level, but she's handling it really well.
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:11.039
Michael Jackson did not.
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:11.360
Right.
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:11.760
Right?
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:18.400
He was completely insulated, he had handlers, he had very few contacts with the outside world, right?
00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:22.960
It was completely firewalled on 360-degree firewall.
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.840
And the people that were handling him didn't necessarily have his interest at heart.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.639
There's no one there telling him you don't have this much money.
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:38.239
You can't buy a ranch and put an amusement park on it and staff it and then sleep in a hyperbaric chamber and have the elephant man's bones and have kids running around.
00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:40.079
And like they have a full-out blown zoo.
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:42.559
Yeah, like that's a huge overhead.
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:43.119
You know what I mean?
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:44.400
You gotta sell a lot of thrillers.
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:45.760
Every album needs to be a thriller.
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:46.320
Yeah, you know.
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:48.639
And was that the other one or thriller?
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:49.119
No, not really.
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:49.920
No, no, no, no.
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:52.079
Bad was you know, my opinion on that one.
00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:56.800
So um, but uh, I think it's the best named album because that's what exactly what it was.
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.719
Yeah, but like um I think that you know that's important for the management side.
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:06.480
And uh if you don't have good management, you your career could be cut short.
00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:07.679
I'm amazed.
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:14.079
Uh just from you know, when I used to teach my class on the Beatles at Belmont, I'm amazed that the Beatles actually survived.
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:23.039
And if their music wasn't so great and they weren't such affable, wonderful human beings in that sense that everybody just there was a cult of personality that they had.
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:25.440
I don't think they would have m lasted.
00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:26.639
I honestly don't.
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:32.000
Because Brian Epstein absolutely made horrific decisions with the Beatles.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:33.679
Sounds like an Epstein thing.
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:36.719
But this is Epstein.
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:38.400
Okay, Frankenstein.
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:39.199
Okay, got it.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:40.880
But yes, you're right.
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:41.679
I think so.
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:42.480
I think you're right.
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:59.280
So, like, for example, you know, when when the Beatles first signed to Parlophone, their royalty, meaning the physical royalty, and this is gets back to the statutory rate, but literally what they got paid for a double-sided single, okay, so I want to hold your hand and love me do, uh, was one penny.
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:00.880
Yeah.
00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:08.159
Now they're selling 700,000 of these singles, and they're getting paid a penny a single.
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:15.840
Now, in today's market, a penny is like a thousandth a thousand times better than what a stream is when someone streams it.
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:16.639
Oh, yeah, no doubt.
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:17.119
You see what I mean?
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:17.519
Yeah, they're not.
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:18.880
A penny is big money now.
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:19.039
Yeah.
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:20.880
But back then it was like, oh, this is criminal.
00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:26.320
In fact, it was so criminal that George Martin himself went to Parlophone and renegotiated.
00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:33.360
Parlophone was a subsidiary of EMI, uh, renegotiated the Beatles' record royalty contract to two pennies.
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:34.159
He doubled it.
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:35.039
That's a huge raise.
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:37.519
You know, he's a great man.
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.480
Um, but I mean, I'm just, you know, that kind of thing happens.
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:43.199
Okay, so that was that was a crazy thing that Epstein did.
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:50.079
But one of the big colossal things is like we all remember what happened February 9th, 1964.
00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:52.880
That is the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show.
00:58:53.119 --> 00:59:02.400
Well, if we rewind just a couple of months, so uh literally Halloween 1963, uh, Ed Sullivan lands uh at Heathrow.
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:07.360
He was coming back, just doing some traveling, and this the Beatles had just come back from a tour in Sweden.
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:11.360
And there were all these people at the airport, and Sullivan was like, What's going on?
00:59:11.519 --> 00:59:12.480
Is it a member of the royal family?
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:12.880
And people?
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:15.119
Yeah, no, he was not.
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:17.679
But but he was just like, What's going on here?
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:18.800
And then he started to notice it.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.840
And one of the guys was like, No, the Beatles just came back from a tour of Sweden.
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:23.039
Well, he never heard of the Beatles.
00:59:23.199 --> 00:59:24.639
He's like, What I don't know even what it is.
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:31.440
So he dispatched his brother-in-law, who was one of the talent managers on the Ed Sullivan show, to figure out what's going on with the Beatles.
00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:38.159
Now, as Ed Sullivan starts to get wind of all this stuff, he starts to realize that the Beatles are an untapped resource.
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:46.800
No one in America, they had never played America before, but they are a huge sensation all over the UK and increasingly in Europe, they are a major big deal.
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:50.159
So he's like, I want to get the Beatles for the show.
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:52.719
And he's trying to think about how much it was going to cost.
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.840
Well, and right, so now this is now 1964.
00:59:56.559 --> 01:00:04.159
In 1958, he had paid Elvis fifty thousand dollars for three performances to have him on the show.
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:04.960
It's big money.
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:05.519
Right.
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:11.920
And the Beatles are sort of at this, they're not this level in the United States, but they are really catching on fire overseas.
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:21.679
So Epstein negotiates a deal to have the Beatles come on to Ed Sullivan for three appearances and$13,500.
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:22.480
Okay.
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:23.199
Okay.
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:24.159
Yeah.
01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:30.960
Uh they got full plane trick uh round chip plane tickets, and they were also put up in a hotel.
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:31.599
But that was it.
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:33.039
It was very bare bones.
01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:37.679
Um, so that was the type of leadership that Epstein would do.
01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:46.639
And Epstein, bless his heart, for for an effete and savant that he was in many other ways, he was not a good business manager for them in any way.
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:48.960
Uh so that was one instance.
01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:59.760
Right around the same time, again, we're talking about 64 United Artists in England is actually wanting to, they're signing the Beatles to do the movie, the three-picture movie deal, right?
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:04.639
And Richard Lester, you know, does Hard Day's Night and directs it.
01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:12.800
Lester does it for free because he is an he's an expat living in London, and he's like, you know what, I don't want to uh just spend my life doing commercials anymore.
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:13.440
I want to do this.
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.760
So he tells UA I'm gonna do it for free.
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:20.960
And Epstein is trying to negotiate the deal with UA.
01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:33.840
UA is totally thinking, so they have a meeting, they're trying to iron out all the details for this three-picture deal, they're prepared to pay the Beatles 25% and to give them a salary.
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:39.519
Epstein walks in and says, we won't take a penny less than 7.5%.
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:48.800
And without UA disclosing what they were prepared to pay, they totally signed the deal right there on the spot.
01:01:48.880 --> 01:02:02.719
And here's the kicker the the soundtrack was not part of EMI's contract, which means that the Beatles were not gonna get paid their royalties for the sales of a hard day's night soundtrack.
01:02:02.800 --> 01:02:03.679
You know who got paid?
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:05.039
United Artists.
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:10.960
Wow, they got all that money, and that was the reason that they were doing it because the people in UA were like, why are we doing this?
01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:19.119
And the the top brass at UA were like, we're doing it for the soundtrack because we know we're gonna sell an incredible amount of records over three pictures?
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:19.519
Yeah.
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:20.480
Good foresight.
01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:21.119
Yeah.
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.519
This was another uh just bad management.
01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:25.280
Another Epstein blunder.
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:27.599
And of course, Epstein hid it from the boys.
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.159
He didn't want them to know just how bad he was messing up.
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:43.679
The worst blunder that Epstein did was licensing the rights to merchandise for the Beatles uh and giving it away almost.
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:45.840
Specifically, it's now a legendary thing.
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:51.039
You guys can, if you really want to dive into it, we're happy to do an ancillary follow-up to this.
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:58.559
But basically, Nicki Byrne, who was kind of like a Tony Soprano and a sham wow salesman, rolled into one, basically he was looking for a big score.
01:02:58.719 --> 01:02:59.599
That was his whole gig.
01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:01.039
He just wanted a huge payout.
01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:13.199
And so he approached Brian Epstein and the and the lawyer and basically saying, I want to be able to license Beatles' merchandise worldwide.
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:16.880
And so they basically were so non-plussed with it, they they couldn't be bothered with it.
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:22.159
They said, Why don't you write your own contract to terms that are favorable to you and we'll sign it?
01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:37.840
And doing so, they gave away 90% of the revenue for licensing Beatles merchandise worldwide to Nikki Byrne and his company called Celltabe, which is the Beatles spell backwards.
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:38.559
Okay.
01:03:39.199 --> 01:03:46.000
This is around a hundred million dollars that they lost.
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:48.400
Now, this is 1964 dollars.
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:49.199
Wow.
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:50.320
A hundred million dollars.
01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:53.760
The Beatles would have been billionaires by the time that they broke up.
01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:57.280
Each one of them would have been a billionaire by those metrics.
01:03:57.519 --> 01:03:57.840
Wow.
01:03:58.079 --> 01:03:59.119
Had this deal gone through.
01:03:59.440 --> 01:03:59.920
That's insane.
01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:00.320
Yeah.
01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.079
He so so Nikki Byrne got to the city.
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:03.519
So did Nicky Byrne become a billionaire?
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:10.639
Well, he was living high on the hog and was not hiding it, but he was he was taking 90% of all merchandise.
01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:16.800
And so, and you gotta remember, I mean, we think you know, Swifties have a lot of merchandise to choose from.
01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:21.039
The Beatles, it they the closest comparison would be KISS.
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:27.519
They had dolls, they had T-s, they had wigs, they had the Beatles boots, they had the suits, they had three.
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:31.519
By the time Yellow Submarine came out, you're talking about all kinds of crazy merchandise.
01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:32.079
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:32.880
Sewing kits.
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:34.639
Yeah, sewing kits.
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:36.800
I mean, they even had Beatles thermometers.
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:39.679
You know, I mean, just like it's amazing what they had.
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:44.480
So um so Celtabe or Nikki Byrne was one of these things, and that was a huge blunder.
01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:52.079
Now, to Epstein's credit, once he realized what a huge colossal mistake he made, he actually got it renegotiated to 46%.
01:04:52.639 --> 01:04:53.519
But even 46%.
01:04:54.159 --> 01:04:54.400
Totally.
01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:55.440
They're the Beatles.
01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:55.599
Yeah.
01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:58.880
He should have gone, we're gonna take, you know, 64%.
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:03.599
But when you look at it now on merch, I mean, 40% is a pretty average number that the artist winds up making now.
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:05.440
So it's not that too far off.
01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:06.320
Yeah, it's true.
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:07.119
Well, thanks for that.
01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:08.880
Because that's really that's interesting stuff.
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:18.800
I mean, I know that you taught a uh a course on the Beatles, uh, so I know that you have a a deep, a deep knowledge and reverence of that whole organization and how they how they produced everything.
01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:22.000
But I hope today, I mean, uh, we went through a lot of things.
01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:35.679
We went through what an artist needs to operate at a high level, and it just it shows what it says to me is how rare it is to have someone that can handle all of that and to have an artist and artists do implode, right?
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:40.239
And and can't handle all of the pressures of doing it, and that's why you see that happening sometimes.
01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:45.119
Yeah, is because there are so many pressures that are involved with running a business like this.
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:53.440
So the way that they got to look at it is you if you're gonna be a major pop star, it's like you're a CEO and you got to be prepared and prepare yourself for years for that level of success.
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:54.480
I think so too.
01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:59.760
It is a headspace, and you know, a lot of folks will be like it's uh it's kind of the lottery mentality, you know, a lot.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:06.800
Of bands are like, man, if I could ever make it as big, and it's like if you're not prepared for that headspace, it's going to become a nightmare really quick.
01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:22.559
A lot of people that statistically win large lotteries, financial lotteries, like you know, the Texas State Lottery or whatever, have a tendency to have a higher level of depression, anxiety, and anger than they did before they won all the money.
01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:23.760
So the money isn't the cause.
01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:30.960
And I think that's part of it, is like you know, you hear about, you know, an artist gets big and everybody that they've ever known starts reaching out to them.
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:32.639
I think that's an overwhelming thing.
01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:37.199
And especially when everybody's saying yes to you all day long, I think that can really mess you up.
01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:42.719
Yeah, your ego can just stop completely, you can lose touch with reality and humility and everything else.
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:44.159
Yeah, there's so many trappings to have.
01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:52.960
I think honestly, you know, an a professional athlete has it a little bit better because if you're a professional athlete, you're gonna sign for X amount of time.
01:06:53.280 --> 01:07:03.920
And and it's very much there's a set schedule and it's gonna happen on these days, and if you don't make the team that day because you're injured or whatever, you still get paid.
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:04.480
Right.
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:05.920
Right and you're not employing the team.
01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:06.719
No, right?
01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:10.159
You're not employing the coaches or all that the artists are, yeah.
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:13.440
And they and they can just sit back and be like, cool, uh yeah, I'm an international star.
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:25.599
You know, if you're Lionel Messi, right, um, arguably the most at famous athlete in the world right now, uh I mean, he can go and play and he's totally fine and he's got everybody in place and he's good.
01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:43.599
But if you're if you're Taylor Swift and your record starts taking off, you may add another eight, nine months of touring onto your schedule, which means now you're not gonna go back into the studio and make another record or what have you, let alone try to find time to, you know, have a family or get married or have personal time.
01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:47.039
Now you're still on the road, and now everybody else has to go on the road to you, too.
01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:57.119
So I think with the music business, it's interesting because when the records do break and they start to get a lot of tailwind, uh, people are gonna ride it for as long as possible.
01:07:57.360 --> 01:08:02.159
And you know, some of these big bands like Metallica, you know, they'll do uh a 20-month tour.
01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:02.719
Yeah.
01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:04.000
That's a that's a long time.
01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:04.880
That's a long time, yeah.
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:07.920
I mean, Taylor was on the road for what, two and a half years or something like that?
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:09.519
Yeah, and she married Travis Kelsey.
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:15.119
I can imagine that they have pretty insightful conversations about that, the their types of fame, you know?
01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:15.440
Yeah.
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:17.760
So I I'd love to be a fly on the wall for something like that.
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:21.359
I think she's amazing in that sense, you know, and I'm a but I'm a I'm a huge Taylor Swift fan.
01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:28.720
I don't listen to her music, but I'm a I'm a fan of her and what she represents and what she does, and and I do like her music, but it's just not on a daily playlist.
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:31.520
Yeah, her operation, such grace and intelligence.
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:32.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:33.760
Yeah, huge Taylor fan.
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:37.199
So, you know, anybody talks bad about Taylor Swift, I'm like, I don't know, can we be friends?
01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:40.000
I mean, it's like talking bad about Dolly Parton.
01:08:40.159 --> 01:08:40.319
Yeah.
01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:40.960
Well, who can do?
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:42.399
Oh, geez, I'd hurt you.
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:43.520
Right, I would too.
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:46.239
Anyway, so awesome episode, cool stuff.
01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:46.960
Like and subscribe.
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.199
We hit 700 subscribers on YouTube.
01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:50.399
Yeah, keep coming, guys.
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:52.159
Tell everybody you can about us.
01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:53.199
We love doing this for you.
01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:54.880
And if and uh, you know, interact.
01:08:55.039 --> 01:09:01.359
If you want us to talk about something in particular and go down the rabbit hole on some weird niche thing, we're all about it.
01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:02.479
Yeah, we love weird stuff.
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:03.680
Anyway, earworm out.
01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:08.800
It starts with the hook in the late night ride.
01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:13.279
Producer makes the course hit just arrive.
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:20.800
Takes a hundred hits to make it stop.